Jordan Peterson: How To Become The Person You’ve Always Wanted To Be | E113 - YouTube
发布时间 2022-01-02 14:00:01 来源
中英文字稿 
If you want to know something about yourself, sit on your bed one night and say, what's one thing I'm doing wrong? That I know I'm doing wrong? That I could fix, that I would fix? You meditate on that? You'll get an answer, and it won't be one you want, but it'll be the necessary one. When you're trapped, some of it's your own inadequacy. What you can do to begin with is every bloody thing you possibly can do to put yourself in the most virtuous and powerful negotiating position. It's possible. Wherever I go in the world, people come up to me. They often have a pretty rough story to relate. It's an awful thing because you see, even in the revelation of their triumph, the initial depth of their despair. So I wouldn't change that, but it's not nothing. It's certainly not just happiness. It's better than happiness, but it's almost unbearable. CHEERING and have a conversation with me. And what a conversation it was. One of the most moving moments in the history of this podcast takes place in this conversation. And I think the thing that people love about Jordan Peterson is his unrelenting desire to just say what he believes to be true, not what he believes to be correct, not what people want to hear, not what people will be happy to hear. And it's because of that, it's because of his pursuit of truth, that he's managed to change millions and millions and millions of people's lives. That is absolutely no understatement. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diaries CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The Star-Spangled Banner"]
如果你想了解自己的一些事情，一个晚上坐在床上说，我做错了什么事情呢？我知道我在做错了什么？我可以修正它，我愿意修正它吗？你沉思这个问题？你会得到答案，而且它不会是你想要的，但它是必要的。当你被困住时，部分原因是你自己的不足之处。起初，你可以尽可能地做一切事情，以使自己处于最高尚和有力的谈判地位。这是可能的。无论我去世界的哪个地方，人们都会找到我。他们经常有一个相当艰难的故事要讲述。这是一件可怕的事情，因为你看到，即使在他们胜利的揭示之中，最初的绝望深渊。所以我不会改变这一点，但这并不是无足轻重的。它当然不仅仅是快乐。它比快乐更好，但几乎是难以忍受的。欢呼声和与我交谈。而且这是怎样一次交谈啊。这次交谈是这个播客历史上最感人的时刻之一。我认为人们喜欢Jordan Peterson的原因是他无私的渴望说出他认为是真实的事实，而不是他认为是正确的，也不是人们想听到的，不是人们愿意听到的。正是由于他对真理的追求，他才成功改变了数以百万计的人们的生活。这绝对不是夸大其词。所以，我是Stephen Bartlett，这是Diaries CEO。我希望没有人在听，但如果你在听，那么请保密。["The Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The Star-Spangled Banner"]
Jordan, first I feel like I owe you a debt of gratitude. And I want to say thank you for the impact you've had on my life. And I'll point at the specific impact you've had on my life. And you asked me before we start recording why this podcast had been successful. One of the reasons is actually something I've gained from reading and listening to your work. And that's this real commitment to trying to be your true self and trying to be your truth. This podcast wouldn't be successful. And I wouldn't have been successful in terms of pursuing myself had I not understood the importance of truth across all facets of life and in my relationships, which is a real pivotal thing for me. And that's thanks to you all.
乔丹，首先我觉得我欠你一份感激之情。我想感谢你对我生活产生的影响。而我会指出你对我生活产生的具体影响。在我们开始录制之前，你问我为什么这个播客取得了成功。其中原因之一实际上是我从阅读和听你的作品中获得的东西。那就是真正致力于成为自己真实的样子，努力保持你自己的真实性。如果没有理解在生活的方方面面以及我的人际关系中真理的重要性，这个播客不会成功。而我在追求自己方面也不会成功，这对我来说是非常关键的事情。这一切都要归功于你。
So what's changed in your relationships as a consequence of that? So I believe it's really difficult to truly connect with someone if you're not speaking and being your truth. And I wasn't. I was, I think I was wearing a mask in my relationships in the context of I didn't express how I was thinking and feeling. I was trying to be who I thought to my partner wanted me to be. And at the point when I like, I let down the mask and I started speaking my truth, actually as I was departing from the relationship, the relationship got stronger than ever before. And it was like we were never actually connected until I was being true with her, with my feelings, with what I wanted with my life. And since then, I would categorize my relationship as being the strongest thing I've ever seen in terms of a romantic connection with someone.
那么，由于这个原因，你的关系发生了什么变化呢？所以我相信，如果你不说出和展现真实的自己，与他人建立真正的连接是非常困难的。而我以前并没有做到这一点。在我的关系中，我认为我戴着面具，没有表达自己的想法和感受。我试图成为我认为伴侣希望我成为的人。直到我放下面具并开始说出自己真实的想法时，事实上，当我离开那段感情时，那段关系变得比以往任何时候都更加坚固。就像在我没有真实表达自己的感受和对自己生活的期望之前，我们实际上从未真正连接过一样。从那时起，我会说我的关系是我见过的关于与某人建立浪漫关系的最强大的事情。
And so when you were starting to talk in your relationship in a more truthful manner, what did that mean that you had to admit? I mean, you just said that part of it was a disconnect between who you were trying to be and who you really were. So that's a persona issue, right? So you think maybe, and everyone has this proclivity to some degree, is there deeply self-conscious and uncertain? And so instead of allowing the person there with to connect with that underlying uncertainty and inadequacy, they act out a persona. And then the problem is is that, well, perhaps the person falls in love with that persona, but there's no real connection there. It's an artifice. And having said that, one of the things that Carl Jung, the great psychotherapist said about a persona is, don't be thinking that you're better off if you never formed one. So for Jung, it was a voyage from, say, undifferentiated self and infancy and so forth through persona to authenticity, because you have to act out your ideals to some degree, right? And you also have to formulate a avatar of yourself in some sense that's a mediator between you and other people in casual social encounters. Like you don't wanna walk into the bank and have the teller tell you about his or her day when you say, how are you doing, right? I mean, now and then that can happen, but generally it's too much intimacy, too quickly. And so you need this functional shell, but the problem arises when that functional shell is all that there is. And then the real person underneath is just desperate and unhappy because nothing of what's being acted out reflects a true underlying reality.
所以，当你开始以更真实的方式交谈时，这意味着你必须承认什么？我的意思是，你刚才说这其中的一部分是你试图成为的人和你真正的自我之间的脱节。那么这就是一个角色问题，对吗？所以你认为，也许每个人都有这种倾向，即有一种深深的自我意识和不确定感？因此，他们没有让在他们身边的人与那种潜在的不确定感和无能感建立联系，而是表演一个角色。然后问题就是，也许这个人会爱上这个角色，但实际上并没有真正的连接。这只是一种假象。在说这个的时候，伟大的心理治疗师卡尔·荣格关于角色的一件事是，不要认为如果你从来没有形成角色，你会更好。对于荣格来说，它是从一个未经区分的自我和婴儿期等等，通过角色到真实性的一次旅程，因为你必须在某种程度上表现出自己的理想，对吗？你还必须在某种意义上塑造一个你自己的化身，作为你和其他人之间的中介人，用于日常社交。比如你不想在走进银行的时候，当你问对方“你好吗？”时，听到出纳员跟你谈他或她的一天。我是说，偶尔这样的情况可能会发生，但通常是太过亲密了，太快了。所以你需要这个功能性的外壳，但问题出现在当这个功能性的外壳是唯一的时候。然后，内心真正的人只是绝望和不快乐，因为他们所表演的一切都不反映真实的底层现实。
What is the consequence, the long-term consequence of acting? So many people, especially because of the world I live in, on Instagram and social media, we kind of build out these personas and we almost follow the implicit instructions that come with those personas.
行动的后果是什么？特别是在我所处的这个世界中，很多人，尤其是在Instagram和社交媒体上，我们会塑造出自己的角色，并且几乎遵循这些角色所隐含的指令。这样做的长期后果是什么？
Oh, that's the problem right there is that, well, I'm trying to get ahold of the Disney people at the moment because I wanna do a lecture series on Pinocchio because I think Pinocchio is brilliant work of art. And if you're a puppet and an actor and Pinocchio is both at times in that movie, both a puppet and an actor, so why an actor? Like why is there something wrong with being an actor?
哦，问题就在这里，现在我正试图找到迪斯尼的人，因为我想要在皮诺曹（Pinocchio）上做一个讲座系列，我认为皮诺曹是一件杰作。在电影中，如果你是一个木偶，同时又是一个演员，那为什么还要成为演员？就像为什么成为演员有问题一样？
Well, the first question is, well, who sets your role? And then the second question is, who's pulling your strings? So you've put on this front that is there to make you popular and sexy and desirable and to mask from yourself your own inadequacies, but that's a role. Well, who wrote it? And for what purpose?
嗯，第一个问题是，嗯，是谁确定了你的角色呢？然后第二个问题是，是谁在操控你呢？所以你表达出来的形象是为了让自己受欢迎、性感和令人向往，并且掩盖自己的不足，但这只是一个角色。那么，是谁创造了这个角色？出于什么目的呢？
And so Jung said, for example, we all acted out of myth and whether we knew it or not. And you know, maybe you're acting out a tragedy. Maybe you're acting out narcissist. You don't know because you've put that on yourself in an attempt in some ways to deliver to people what they want or more accurately, to look as though you're delivering to people what they want. And it's not nothing to do that, right? Because at least you're attempting, in some sense, to adapt to the social world. Someone who's really infantile and dependent, someone who's never left home, part of their problem is that they haven't crafted a persona. So you don't wanna denigrate it entirely, but it's no substitute for the real thing.
于是荣格说，例如，我们都是根据神话行事的，不管我们是否意识到了这一点。你知道，也许你正在扮演一场悲剧。也许你正在扮演自恋者。你不知道，因为你试图以某种方式去满足人们的需求，或者更准确地说，看起来你在满足人们的需求。这并不是没用的，对吗？因为至少你在某种程度上试图适应社会世界。一个真正幼稚和依赖性的人，一个从未离开过家的人，他们的问题之一就是他们没有塑造过自己的角色。所以你不想完全贬低它，但它也无法替代真实的自我。
And it turns out that not only is what we want from each other, the real thing, but that's also the adventure of your life. And so if you aren't truthful, and that means unfortunately, especially at the beginning, when you start to be truthful, it means deeply coming to terms with your inadequacies in humility. So it's very painful. Without that, you don't have the adventure of your life. You have the role that has been that you've acquiesced to. And that'll take all the meaning out of your life. The adventure of your life.
事实证明，我们彼此想要的不仅仅是真实的东西，而且这也是你人生的冒险。所以如果你不诚实，不幸的是，尤其是在开始时，当你开始真诚的时候，这意味着要深入面对自己的缺陷和谦卑。所以这非常痛苦。如果没有这一点，你的人生就没有了冒险。你只是顺从了一直以来被赋予的角色。这将使你的生活失去所有的意义。你需要人生的冒险。
You say, imagine who you could be and then aim single-mindedly at that. I encounter these young people who appear to know who they could be or they've imagined who they could be, but for whatever reason, they seem to choose the certain misery of their current situation, the job that's sucking their soul out or that relationship. Over the uncertainty they'll encounter as they go on the adventure of their life.
你说，想象一下你可以成为怎样的人，然后全力以赴去追求。我遇到过一些年轻人，他们似乎知道自己可以成为什么样的人，或者已经幻想过自己可以成为什么样的人，但出于某种原因，他们似乎选择了当前境况带来的困苦，比如无法满足自己内心需求的工作，或者不幸的感情关系，而不愿意面对人生冒险中的不确定性。
So what would I say to these young people who always say to me, Steve, I want to do this, but you can see them stifled by fear because it's like, yeah, well, it's like make a plan, man. So when I was doing my clinical work, which I did a lot of career work with my clients, both at a beginner level, I would say, like really a beginner level with people who had no employment whatsoever, no history of employment, who were under-educated and who lacked every skill you could possibly imagine. These are people who were really in dire straits up to people who were operating at the top of their profession, but who could still strategize forward.
那么对于总是这样对我说的年轻人，史蒂夫，我要说什么呢？他们说，我想做这个，但你可以看到他们受到恐惧的压制，因为就像，是的，好吧，制定个计划吧，伙计。当我进行我的临床工作时，我与客户一起进行了很多职业规划工作，无论是初学者层面的人，也就是从来没有就业经历、受教育程度不高、缺乏各种技能的人，还是那些在自己行业的顶尖操作者。
And so, for example, let's say you're at a dead end in your job. Okay, so I don't find my work meaningful. All right, so that's a problem statement. It's like, well, why not? I find the work I do repetitive and boring and without spirit, I have a bad relationship or a neutral relationship with my boss who doesn't know who I am. I have problems with coworkers. All of that needs to be differentiated, right? And analyzed in detail.
所以，举个例子，假设你在工作上走到了死胡同。好吧，我觉得我的工作毫无意义。嗯，这就是一个问题陈述。那么，为什么呢？我觉得自己的工作重复乏味且缺乏灵性，与老板的关系糟糕或者中立，老板甚至不知道我是谁。我和同事之间也存在问题。所有这些都需要进行区分，对其进行详细分析。
So we might say, for example, let's say you believe that you're undervalued at work. And maybe you are. What you need to do is you have something to say. And we would have to figure out what it is that you have to say. But it would be some variant of, I'm bringing more value to the table than I am being compensated for. And that's demoralizing me. And it's also not good for you, you being my boss, because if I'm actually more valuable than is being recognized, then the fact that you're not valuing me properly means that I will become demoralized. I won't work properly and you won't get the best out of me. So it's bad for both of us. And if your boss is in principle, not amenable to such a discussion then what you should seriously consider doing is finding another job.
所以我们可以说，比如说你相信在工作中被低估了。也许是这样。你需要做的是有话要说。我们需要弄清楚你要说的是什么。但它可能会是这样的一种变体：我为公司带来的价值超过我得到的报酬。这让我感到沮丧。而且对你来说也不好，你是我的上司，如果我实际上比别人认可的更有价值，那么你没有正确地评价我，意味着我会变得沮丧。我将无法正常工作，你也无法得到我最好的表现。因此，这对我们两个人都不好。如果你的上司原则上不愿意进行这样的讨论，那么你应该认真考虑找一份新工作。
Okay, so let's say we're gonna set you up for this. Okay, this isn't like next week's enterprise, man. This is your life.
好吧，我们来为你安排一下。好的，这不像下周的事业那样简单，伙计。这关乎你的生活。
So the first thing I would ask is, well, do you have your resume or CV in order? Well, I haven't typed it up for three years. Well, what do you think about bringing it up? Well, I'm pretty nervous about that because there's some holes in it. And I didn't do so well in college and I'm kind of embarrassed about my resume.
所以我首先要问的是，你的简历或履历整理得怎样？嗯，我已经三年没更新过了。那你觉得要不要拿出来呢？嗯，我对此有些紧张，因为里面有一些空白和我在大学里表现不太好，所以我对我的简历感到有些尴尬。
It's like, okay, bring it in. Let's go through it. Let's at least update it. Let's look where the holes are. Let's look at where the inadequacies are as far as you're concerned, right? This isn't my judgment, it's your judgment. Let's walk through those judgments and see if they're warranted because maybe you're just too guilty and ashamed and self-conscious and anxious and you're not, you're looking at your resume more critically than someone else would. And maybe there's some holes that you need to rectify.
好吧，表达出来吧。我们来看看。至少让我们更新一下。让我们看看有哪些缺陷。让我们看看在你看来有哪些不足，对吗？这不是我的评判，而是你自己的评判。让我们遵循这些判断，看看它们是否合理，因为也许你只是太有罪感、害羞、自卑和焦虑了，你对你的简历的批评比别人更严厉。也许你需要纠正一些缺陷。
You were two courses away from your BA and you dropped out or something like that. Well, maybe we need six months to address that and at least even if you can't be fully educated, you could be taking some courses online. And so when you went to a new job interview and they said, what about this hole? You'd say, well, I came to terms with that six months ago and in an effort to rectify it, I'm taking the following courses and here's my plan for completion. That's a really good answer. And anyone with any sense who's interviewing will accept that as an indication that although you're not perfect and who is that you have a good plan and that you've thought it through, like that's the kind of answer that in all likelihood will cement your candidacy for the position.
你距离获得学士学位只差两门课了，但是你退学了或者类似的事情发生了。好吧，也许我们需要六个月来解决这个问题，即使你无法完全接受教育，你也可以参加一些在线课程。所以当你去一个新的工作面试时，他们问到这个“坑”时，你可以说，好吧，我在六个月前已经接受了这个事实，并且为了弥补它，我正在学习以下课程，这是我完成计划。这是一个非常好的回答。任何有经验的面试官都会接受这个回答，因为它表明尽管你不是完美的，但你有一个很好的计划，并且经过深思熟虑。这种回答很有可能巩固你获得职位的竞争力。
Okay, so now you're gonna go to your boss. Well, you have to have your CV and your resume in order and you have to be able to stand on it solidly and which at least means that you're prepared to address the inadequacies in a credible, realistic, believable and truthful manner.
好的，所以现在你要去找你的老板了。嗯，你需要整理好你的简历和履历，并且要能够坚定地依靠它，至少意味着你准备好能够以可信、实际、可信服和真实的方式来解决不足之处。
All right, now what you do is apply for like 10 jobs. You don't have to take them, but maybe you have to go to an interview or two or three or four and maybe there's a bunch of opportunities out there for you that you didn't even know about and maybe someone offers you a job. And so now you can go to your boss and say, here's the situation I'm in here at work. Here's my evaluation of the problems in relationship to me. Here's what I could do for you if you gave me a 40% raise and the opportunity to progress, but I'd like to see a plan for that. And I've been looking for other opportunities before conducting this discussion and I have some.
好的，现在你要做的是申请大约10个工作。你不需要接受它们，但也许你需要参加一两个、三个或四个面试，或许这里有很多你不知道的机会，也许有人会给你提供一份工作。于是现在你可以去找你的老板说，这是我在工作中的情况，这是我对问题的评估与我自己的关系。如果给我一次40%的加薪和晋升的机会，我能为你做些什么，但我希望能看到一个计划。在进行这次讨论之前，我已经在寻找其他机会，并且有一些选择。
Well, then if your boss treats you with contempt at that point and doesn't listen, then perhaps he or she is a little more narcissistic than might be optimal and it's time to find a new job. But this isn't something you do trivially. And so when you're doubtful, say you're trapped, you ask yourself, well, why am I trapped? And that's a hard question, right? Because some of it's your own inadequacy, a lot of it and all of the part of it that you can deal with is your own inadequacy. So even if it's unfair, even if you're hemmed in for any number of reasons, inappropriate, like ethnically predicated oppression, let's say, or maybe you live it, you're in a workplace that really is sexist in some fundamental sense. Well, that's not good. It's not just, it's not fair. It's not meritorious, all of those things. Man, maybe you shouldn't be there, but what you can do to begin with is every bloody thing you possibly can do to put yourself in the most virtuous and powerful negotiating position possible. And you have to think like a snake in some sense, to do that, you gotta get the details right. You have to be prepared to bite and you have to have your eyes on the prize, so to speak. And people aren't taught this sort of thing ever, really. They're not taught how to negotiate. They're not taught how to go all set. They're not taught how to conceptualize appropriate success in some sense. That's what the humanities are supposed to teach people.
那么，如果你的老板对你藐视并且不听你的话，那么也许他或她的自恋程度超过了理想状态，这时候可能是时候找一份新工作了。但这并不是一件轻而易举的事情。所以当你表示怀疑时，比如说你感到困境，你要问问自己，为什么我会被困住？这是个艰难的问题，对吧？因为其中的一部分原因是你自己的不足，而你能够处理的部分都是你自己的不足。所以即使不公平，即使有无数其他原因让你无处可去，比如说种族歧视压迫，或者你正处于一个基本上性别歧视的工作环境中。那么这样的情况并不好，它不公正，没有价值，所有这些都不对。或许你不应该在那里工作，但你可以做的是尽你可能做一切正直和有力的谈判措施。你必须像蛇一样思考，为了做到这一点，你必须把细节做好。你要准备好咬人，你要把目光投向目标，可以这么说。而人们实际上从未接受过这种教育。他们没有学会如何谈判。他们没有学会如何全身心投入。他们没有学会如何概念化适当的成功。这正是人文学科应该教给人们的东西。
So. On that point of understanding my inadequacies or someone's inadequacies, I really believe that it's really difficult to undergo self-development if you don't have self-awareness. And I was really trying to understand from your writings how someone is to build their self-awareness. It's almost like the unknown unknown, if you don't know how you build the thing.
因此，就理解我自己或他人的不足之处而言，我真的相信如果缺乏自我意识，进行自我成长将会变得非常困难。我真的试图从你的文字中了解有关如何建立自我意识的方法。如果你不知道如何建立这个东西，那就像是未知的未知。
Oh, I know a good exercise for that. It's like a prayer in some sense. In fact, I would say it's proper prayer. If you wanna know something about yourself, sit on your bed one night and say to yourself, you gotta mean this. Like you gotta be desperate. This is no game this. It's like, my life is not everything I want it to be. And perhaps it's not everything that I need it to be. And by need, I mean, my life is so unbearable that the suffering that's attended upon that is make me nihilistic, cynical, bitter, resentful, homicidal, genocidal, unable to have a good relationship, prone to punish people for their virtues because of my jealousy, driving the proclivity to see evil everywhere except within my own heart. Like these are problems, man.
哦，我知道一个对此很有效的练习。从某种意义上来说，它像是一种祈祷。实际上，我会说这是真正的祷告。如果你想了解自己的一些事情，一个晚上坐在床上对自己说，你得认真对待。就像你必须绝望一样。这不是游戏，这是我人生不如意之处。也许我的生活并不是我需要的一切。而所谓的需要是指，我的生活如此难以忍受，以至于我变得虚无主义、愤世嫉俗、痛苦、愤恨、杀人、种族灭绝，并且无法维持良好的关系。由于嫉妒，我会惩罚别人的优点，驱使着我倾向于看到除了我自己心中之外的邪恶。这些都是问题，伙计。
And you ask yourself, you sit on the bed and say, okay, man, I'm ready to learn something. Like what's one thing I'm doing wrong, that I know I'm doing wrong, that I could fix, that I would fix? It's like, you meditate on that? You'll get an answer. And it won't be one you want, but it'll be the necessary one. You know, and it's often something that will point you to small things. So Carl Jung said, people in the modern world don't see God because they don't look low enough. And so imagine you're in your messy bedroom, you know, and you're sitting on the edge of the bed trying to have an honest dialogue with yourself. And the little voice says, you know, it's pretty disgusting in here. And you think, well, I'm way above such trivial niceties as organizing my room. It's like, well, that's pride, that's arrogance. If you're above organizing what's actually yours, how in the world are you ever going to organize anything else? And so you get on your knees and you think, well, it's time to, you know, take a brush to the toilet. And maybe that's where you start.
你问自己，坐在床上说，好吧，兄弟，我准备去学点东西。像有一件我一直做得不对的事，而且我知道我做错了，我能修复的，也愿意去修复的一件事是什么？你在冥想着这个问题？你会得到一个答案。这个答案可能不是你想要的，但却是必要的。你知道，它经常指引你去注意小事情。所以卡尔·荣格说，现代人之所以看不到上帝，是因为他们没有抬头看得够低。想象一下，你处在自己的乱乱的卧室里，坐在床边试着和自己进行一次诚实的对话。小声音说，你知道吗，这里挺恶心的。你想，我高贵到不需要去整理自己的房间了。那就是骄傲，那就是傲慢。如果你连自己的东西都不愿整理，你又怎么可能整理其他什么东西呢？所以你跪下来，想，好吧，是时候拿刷子刷一下马桶了。也许这就是你的起点。
And so, and that works, like that works, you start making those micro-improvements, like real micro-improvements, real on-the-ground actual micro-improvements to things you know that are wrong, you'll improve unbelievably rapidly. What you're talking about there sounds to me a lot like an overdose of arrogance and also the need for humility. Do you think the Western world suffers from arrogance because of our relative privilege and luxury that we kind of overlook?
因此，而且，这是行之有效的，像这样的方式，你开始进行微小的改进，真正的微小改进，实际的基础上的微小改进，针对你知道存在问题的事物，你会以难以置信的速度迅速改善。在那里，你所说的内容对我来说听起来很像是傲慢的过剩和对谦逊的需求。你认为西方世界因为相对的特权和奢侈而骄傲自大，而忽视了什么吗？
Of course, well, that's a temptation, right? I mean, when the, when the left radical lefty types go after people for their unearned privilege, they have a point. Now, the point is the existentialists called it throneness, which is enough, that's a Heideggerian term. And throneness is the fact that we kind of experience life as if we're tossed into it, thrown into it, you know, you're male and not female, you're Hindu and not Christian, you're tall and not short, you have an arbitrary range of talents and an arbitrary range of limitations, none of which in some sense you chose. It's the cards you're dealt.
当然，嗯，那是一种诱惑，对吧？我的意思是，当左翼激进分子因为别人未经努力就获得的特权而指责他们时，他们有一定的道理。现在，这一点存在论者称之为"陷入"，这是一个海德格尔的术语。"陷入"是指我们以一种被扔入其中的方式来经历生活，你知道的，你是男性而不是女性，你是印度教徒而不是基督徒，你高而不矮，你拥有一系列随机的才能和随机的限制，这在某种程度上都不是你选择的。这就是你被发放的牌。
Now, some of those are cards of privilege. No, maybe you're born intelligent, maybe you're born symmetrical, maybe you're born healthy. Maybe you're born into a culture where it's much easier not to be absolutely deprived, maybe your parents are rich. And so all of that in some sense is unearned. Now, along with that comes a good dose of existential guilt, because at the same time, and this is true for anyone, regardless of their cultural background, the ground we walk on is soaked in the blood of historical atrocity. And so that's on you because, you know, people think, well, who's the Nazi? Well, it's the fascist or it's the, or who's the radical communist? It's the radical left-wing ideologue and the fundamental truth of the matter is that's best dealt with as a spiritual matter, is the adversary is within really, most profoundly. And so you have to take the responsibility for that historical atrocity unto yourself.
现在，其中一些是特权的象征。也许你天生聪明，也许你天生面貌对称，也许你天生健康。也许你出生在一个文化环境中，在那里不被完全剥夺要容易得多，也许你的父母富有。因此，在某种程度上，这些都是不应得来的。然而，伴随而来的是一种强烈的存在主义罪恶感，因为与此同时，不论一个人的文化背景如何，我们所行走的土地上都浸淫着历史暴行的鲜血。所以这是你的责任，因为，你知道，人们会想，纳粹是谁？好，纳粹是法西斯主义者或极左翼意识形态的激进共产主义者。而事实上，这实际上是一个精神问题，对手实际上在内心深处。因此，你必须对自己承担历史暴行的责任。
I was talking to Guy Ritchie this week about his movie King Arthur. It's quite an interesting movie in many ways. And when Arthur, who could be the hero, takes the sword, he's so overcome by visions of his murderous uncle that he can't pick up the weapon. Well, think about that. Now you have weapons at your disposal, but they've been used by your murderous uncle. How dare you wield them? And the answer is, maybe it's easy just to leave the sword on the ground because you do wanna be responsible for atrocities going forward and don't think you couldn't be and don't think you might not enjoy it. And so the way you pay for your privileges with your virtue, I mean that most particularly, you have these opportunities and this existential guilt.
这周我与盖·里奇（Guy Ritchie）谈了谈他的电影《亚瑟王》。它在很多方面都非常有趣。当亚瑟拿起剑时，他被他那个凶残的叔叔的幻象所压倒，以至于他无法拿起武器。好吧，想想看。现在你手头上有武器，但它们被你凶残的叔叔使用过。你有胆量使用它们吗？答案是，也许把剑留在地上很容易，因为你不想为未来的暴行负责，不要认为自己不能做到，也不要认为自己不会享受这种感觉。因此，你通过你的美德来支付你的特权，我指的是这一点，你有这些机会和存在上的愧疚感。
And the way you expiate that and atone is by doing your best to live the best possible life you can manage to speak the truth, to treat people with respect, to abide by the principles of the dignity of the individual and to put your house in order. And that's how you pay for your unearned privilege, all of us. And we all have our privileges and our curses, all of us have that. That's why it's not useful to be envious of people. You see some, you're a young man, you see someone drive by in a Ferrari with a blonde and you think, my God, he's got everything. And the woman in the car is a prostitute who's got a cocaine addiction and her life is just one catastrophe after another. And he's had to lie and cheat his way into this position. And he's afraid that everything's going to come crashing down on him. And that's what you're jealous of. And it's just not that profound. You don't want someone else's fate. Man, your fate's enough and your adventure's enough. It's plenty. It's more than you can ever fully realize. And so that's also part of the reason that we all believe that the individual has some intrinsic dignity. It's don't be so sure that your position in your room is so damn trivial. It might be your attitude towards it that's trivial. And if you're in dire straits and dire circumstances, just look at how much opportunity you have to make things better. So not that it's easy. You don't even want it to be easy. No, so.
并且你通过尽力过上最好的生活来弥补和补偿，诚实地说实话，尊重他人，遵守个体尊严的原则，整理自己的生活，这样你就为你未曾亲手得来的特权买单了，我们所有人都是如此。我们都有我们的特权和困扰，每个人都有。所以嫉妒别人是没有用的。你作为一个年轻人，看到有人开着一辆法拉利车带着一个金发女人路过，你可能会想，天呐，他拥有一切。而车里的女人是一个有着可卡因成瘾的妓女，她的生活只是一个接着一个的灾难。他为了得到这个位置，不得不说谎和欺骗。他害怕一切都会崩溃。这就是你嫉妒的对象。但其实这并不深奥。你不想要别人的命运。伙计，你自己的命运和冒险已经足够了。足够多了，你可能永远无法完全意识到。所以这也是我们所有人相信个体具有某种固有尊严的部分原因。不要那么确定你在房间里的位置是如此微不足道。可能微不足道的是你对待它的态度。如果你陷入困境，只需要看看你有多少机会让事情变得更好。虽然并不容易，你也不希望它变得容易。不，所以。
On that point of you don't want it to be easy, I've really contended with this idea of struggle and chaos in my life and the role it plays. And once upon a time, I thought I was trying to rid my life of chaos and struggle. I thought that's why I was trying to get rich and get the Ferrari and the blonde. I thought that would create a life free of struggle. But then I looked at some studies, and I had about this thing called gold medal depression when Olympians come back from the Olympics and they've lost orientation. And then the day when someone offered to buy my company for a nine figure number, and it filled me with this emptiness and this dread. And I tried to understand the role that struggle would have to play for me to be a fulfilled human being for the rest of my life. Yeah, well, the observation with regard to your company, that's a great observation. I mean, we're built to walk uphill. And when you reach the pinnacle of the hill, you want to stop and appreciate the vision. But the next thing you want is a higher hill in the distance because it's the uphill climb that it's from the uphill climb that we derive our value. And I mean this technically.
关于你不希望一切都变得容易的观点，我在生活中真的与挣扎和混乱的概念进行了长时间的争斗，并思考了它所扮演的角色。曾经，我以为自己是想摆脱生活中的混乱和挣扎。我以为那就是我努力致富、拥有法拉利和金发美女的原因。我以为那样就能拥有无挣扎的生活。但是后来我看到了一些研究，了解到奥运会运动员回到奥运会后会出现所谓的金牌抑郁症，失去方向感。然后有一天，有人提出以九位数的数字购买我的公司，但这让我感到一种空虚和恐惧。我试图理解挣扎在我一生中要扮演的角色，以实现人生的满足感。是的，关于你的公司的观察，那是一个很好的观察。我是说我们天生就喜欢走上坡路。当你到达山顶时，你希望停下来欣赏那景色，但接下来你希望看到在远方更高的山，因为我们从攀登山上的过程中获得价值。我是说这个从技术上讲。
So almost all the positive emotion we feel, especially the emotion that fills us with enthusiasm, and that's to be filled with the spirit of God, by the way, because that's what enthusiasm means. That's experienced in relationship to a goal.
所以，几乎所有我们感受到的积极情绪，特别是让我们充满热情的情感，就是为了被上帝的精神充满。顺便说一下，这就是热情的含义。而这种情感与目标有关。
And so in some sense, and this is part of the religious enterprise, you want a goal that you can never attain, right? So you can always move closer to the goal that recedes as you move towards it. You think, well, that's frustrating. It's like Cisaphas pushing the rock uphill. But it's not because as you pursue that goal, you put yourself together and your life does get better and richer and more abundant. And that's why the highest levels of virtue and goal are in some sense transcendent. You want them to be above everything you're doing so you can continually move towards something that's more sublime and better.
在某种意义上，这也是宗教所追求的部分。你希望有一个无法实现的目标，对吗？这样你就能够随着接近目标而不断接近它。你可能会想，这很让人沮丧，就像西西弗斯把巨石推上山一样。但实际上不是这样的，因为当你追求那个目标时，你会变得更加完整，你的生活会变得更好、更丰富、更充实。这也是为什么最高层次的美德和目标在某种程度上是超越性的。你希望它们高于你所做的一切，这样你就可以不断朝着更崇高、更优秀的东西前进。
That's what you are. You're here to live, not to sleep. And the problem with the vision of my ties on the beach is that, well, first of all, that's a vision of drug-induced unconsciousness. Second, it's only going to work for about a week. Third, you're going to be a laughingstock in a month and depressed and aimless and goalless. It's no, that's not, it's, you want a horizon of ever-expanding possibility.
这就是你所追求的。你来到这里是为了活着，而不是睡觉。而我想像在海滩上系领带的那个愿景的问题在于，首先，那是一种药物引发的无意识状态下的愿景。其次，它只能维持大约一周的时间。第三，在一个月内，你就会成为一个笑柄，变得沮丧、目标不明、毫无目标。不，这不是你所想要的，你想要的是一个不断扩展的可能性的视野。
And so it does happen to people as they, because they've staked their soul on the attainment of an instrumental goal. And it can be a pretty high order goal, it was in your case. But then you think, well, now I'm there, now what? Well, the answer can't be, well, I'm going to live in the lap of luxury and never have to leave the fate. What do you want to be? A giant infant with a gold bottle? You never have to do anything but lay in your back and suck. It's like, well, you see the problem with that as a conceptualization. It's no, you want to be like an active warrior moving up hill with your sword in hand. And that's dynamic, that's exciting.
因此，对于那些将自己的灵魂押在追求某个目标上的人来说，这确实会发生。这个目标可以是非常高远的，就像你的情况一样。但是然后你会想，好了，现在我实现了目标，接下来呢？那么答案不能是，我要过奢华的生活，再也不用离开座位。你想成为什么？一个拥有金质奶瓶的巨型婴儿吗？你什么都不必做，只需要仰躺着吸吮。这个概念化的问题就在于此，你想要的不是那样。你想要成为一个手持剑、不断向山上进发的积极的战士。那是具有活力和令人兴奋的。
And that's why so many young men disappear into video games. That's all acted out in the video game. So you have to act that out in your own life. Not that I despise video games, because I don't, but they're not a substitute for life. They might be good training under some conditions for life.
这就是为什么很多年轻人会迷失在电子游戏中的原因。这些都是在游戏中扮演的角色。因此，你必须在自己的生活中去扮演那些角色。并不是说我鄙视电子游戏，因为我并不鄙视，但它们不能取代真实的生活。在某些情况下，它们可能是对生活的良好训练。
So one of the things I was also really, really keen to ask you was about what's happened in the world over the last two years. One of the shifts we've seen in the business world is this move to remote working. And I hate it. And I hate it for a variety of reasons, because I feel like there's very few institutions in my life where I have a chance to meaningfully connect with people, dating has become screens, socializing has become screens. And the office, the institution of the office in my life, was one of the places, especially as a younger man, where I got to meet pretty much 90% of my current best friends and also partners. And I really worry about sitting behind a Zoom, doing my work for the next 10 years. What is your take on remote working?
所以我也非常非常想问你的一件事就是关于过去两年世界发生的事情。我们在商业界看到的变化之一是向远程办公的转变。而我很讨厌这种情况。有很多原因让我反感，因为我觉得在我的生活中很少有机构可以让我与人建立有意义的联系，约会已经变成了面对屏幕，社交活动也变成了面对屏幕。而办公室，办公室的机构在我的生活中是一个重要的地方，特别是对于年轻人来说，我在那里结识了目前大部分的好朋友和伴侣。我真的很担心在接下来的10年里，我只能坐在Zoom面前工作。你对远程办公有什么看法？
Well, I like it and I don't like it. I think it's very difficult for us to understand our embodied environments well enough to duplicate them in a healthy and comprehensive manner in the virtual world, because we just don't understand what it is that we're doing when we actually do things rather than represent them.
嗯，我喜欢它，但又不喜欢。我认为要充分理解我们身体所处的环境，以便在虚拟世界中以健康和全面的方式重现它们，是非常困难的。因为我们实际行动时所做的事情，我们只是不明白我们在做什么，而不仅仅是简单地描述它们。
So for example, I've thought a lot about online university. OK, so then you could imagine, well, you can certainly imagine online lecture courses. And you could say, well, the fact that they can be delivered on a large scale very inexpensively is a virtue. You can bring the knowledge to a very large number of people at a low cost. So why not do that? And so that's half the university. And then you could say, well, imagine that you generated the system of universal tests, which is possibility. And that means you could bring accreditation to everyone at a low cost as well. And that's that. University's online. But that presumes that you know what the university is and you don't.
举个例子，我对在线大学思考过很多。你可以想象一下，在线课程是可以想象的。你可以说，它们可以以低成本大规模传授知识是一种优势。可以以低成本把知识传授给很多人。为什么不这么做呢？所以这就是大学的一部分。然后你可以想象生成一个普遍测试系统的可能性，这意味着你也可以以低成本使每个人都获得认证。就这样。大学就成了线上的了。但是这假设你知道什么是大学，而你并不知道。
Because, well, here's some other things the university is. An excuse for young, a credible excuse that's socially sanctioned for young people who have not yet established a career goal to adopt an identity of upwards driving for four years away from their parents while they meet a new group of friends. Like that might be 90% of the university for all we know, because it's certainly for me, for example, when I went to college, I left home when I was 17 and I left this small town I had grown up in.
因为，嗯，这是大学的一些其他作用。大学是一个借口，一个被社会认可的借口，供那些尚未确立职业目标的年轻人在四年里远离父母、结交新朋友的同时形成一个向上发展的身份。我们可以说这可能是大学的90%以上的作用了，因为对于我来说绝对如此。例如，当我上大学时，我17岁就离开家乡，离开我长大的小镇。
And in many ways, I left the peers that I had been associating with. Now, a couple of them came to college with me. So I had a toehold there. But I made an entirely different group of friends. And they were friends whose goals were quite radically different from the friends that I, let's say, in some sense, left behind. Well, the reformulation of my peer network might have been the most important part of the first part of my education.
在很多方面，我离开了曾经交往的同龄人。现在，有几个人和我一起进入了大学，所以在那里我有了一个立足点。但是我又建立了一个完全不同的朋友圈，他们的目标与我之前留下的朋友们截然不同。嗯，重新构建同龄人网络可能是我教育的第一阶段中最重要的部分。
Now, I was fortunate at this place. It was called Grand Prairie College. I had seven professors, seven, which is really good, who really loved to teach. And so I also learned a lot in the formal sense. But while I was doing that, I was also negotiating, well, how much partying do you actually do? Because zero isn't the right amount. But every goddamn night till three in the morning isn't the right amount either. Because you have to balance that in some sense with practicality and upward striving. And so, and how do I live with other people? My roommate, so I had one roommate who's a really good friend of mine still. And he walked 1,000 miles with me this year when I was ill, literally.
现在，在这个地方我很幸运。它叫做大草原学院。我有七位教授，七位，这真的很好，他们非常喜欢教学。因此，我在学术上也学到了很多东西。但在那期间，我也在考虑，实际上应该有多少参加派对呢？因为零偏少，但每天都到凌晨三点也不正常。因为你必须在某种程度上平衡这一点，要结合实际和进取心。此外，我还要学会与他人相处。我的室友，我还有一个仍然是我的好朋友。当我病了时，他在这一年陪我走了一千英里，字面意义上的一千英里。
So I really liked living with him because he was a tough guy, worked in lead smelters and he was a cowboy. And he was a tough guy, four years older than me, about three years older than me. He'd come back to school after bouncing around through these tough working class occupations. And he had his feet on the ground in lots of ways. And I liked him as a roommate because I'd buy some groceries and then he'd buy some groceries, or I'd make dinner and he'd make breakfast. And none of that was ever explicitly negotiated. He was just very aware of this reciprocal, it's reciprocal altruism technically.
所以我真的很喜欢和他一起生活，因为他是个硬汉， 在铅冶炼厂工作并且是个牛仔。他比我大四岁，比我大大约三岁。在经历了一系列艰难的工人阶级职业之后，他回到学校上课。他生活中的很多方面都很务实。我喜欢他作为室友，因为我买了一些食品，他也会买一些食品，或者我做晚餐，他会做早餐。这些都没有明确谈判过。他只是非常清楚这种互惠互利的关系，技术上来说，这是一种互助过程。
He was very good at, we were both good at, tracking our mutual obligations and fulfilling them. So he had a very peaceful relationship. I lived with him for a year and then a little bit at different times and in different places. And I learned to live with a whole variety of roommates. But many roommates, we had a kind of a frat house in the first college I went to. And I think anywhere from six to 20 people lived there depending on the week. It was ridiculous, it was way too much fun. And that was also a problem. But when I look back on that time in my life, I certainly can't reduce the educational experience to virtual classes and virtual tests. That's maybe that's 10% of it. And we don't know how to replicate those environments that are so formative, especially in their everydayness. Because you live with your roommates. That's a 24 hour thing.
他非常擅长跟踪我们共同承担的责任并履行它们，所以他有一个非常和平的关系。我和他一起住了一年，然后在不同的时间和地点又住了一小段时间。我学会了与各种各样的室友相处。但是在我上大学的第一个学院里，我们有一个类似联谊会的宿舍楼。每周住在那里的人数可能从六个到二十个不等。那真是荒谬，太过有趣了。当我回想起那段生活时，我确实无法将教育经历简化为虚拟课程和虚拟考试。这可能只占其中的10%。而且，我们不知道如何复制那些对塑造人的环境，特别是在日常生活中如此重要的环境。因为你与室友一起生活，这是一个24小时的事情。
And so the problem with virtualization is that we don't understand our environments well enough to be certain that we're not excluding something vital when we concentrate only on what we think conceptually is important.
因此，虚拟化的问题在于我们对环境的了解不足，无法确定在我们仅关注概念上重要的事物时是否排除了某些至关重要的内容。
Now, I meet with my son pretty regularly for a project we're working on, which is an app that will teach people to write well they write and use it. So we're quite excited about this. But I meet with him virtually once a week. And it's actually very efficient. He's on the screen. We can see our project in front of us. We can do mutual editing of some of the underlying material, educational material. There's a real place for it.
现在，我经常与我儿子碰面，因为我们正在合作开发一个教人们如何写作的应用程序。我们对此感到非常兴奋。但是我每周只是在虚拟空间与他碰面一次。这实际上非常高效。他出现在屏幕上。我们可以看到我们的项目放在我们面前。我们可以共同编辑一些底层教育材料。这确实有其可取之处。
And I have a cottage up north in Toronto where we set up a studio like your studio. Here, all the wires isn't quite as impressive. But I can have an interview and discussion with anyone anywhere in the world, even in a foreign language. And that's like unbelievably remarkable. But that doesn't mean that we know how to virtualize reality or that we should flee into it. And these new technologies, they're unbelievably radical and they're very hard to master. And so we all have to be careful and try to keep our feet on the ground to some degree when we're using them.
我在多伦多北部有一间小屋，我们在那里建立了一个类似您的工作室的工作室。在这里，所有的电缆并不是那么令人印象深刻。但我可以与世界上任何地方的任何人进行采访和讨论，甚至使用外语。这实在是难以置信的了不起。但这并不意味着我们知道如何实现虚拟现实，或者我们应该逃避现实。这些新技术非常激进且非常难以掌握。因此，我们在使用它们时都必须小心谨慎，并且尽量保持理性。
So for example, now, I've really only figured this out in the last three months. I get up and I do a series of exercises that my wife taught me that are based in the Kundalini yoga tradition. That's real helpful, flexibility and breathing exercises. That reduces my anxiety during the day. I would say about 25%.
所以举个例子，现在，我真正弄清楚这一点是在最近的三个月里。我起床后进行了一系列由我妻子教给我的基于昆达里尼瑜伽传统的练习。这真的对我的灵活性和呼吸有所帮助。这减少了我的白天焦虑。我会说大约减少了25%。
And then I try to reserve some time either for writing or I'm working on a number of artistic projects. And so I'm going to do one or those for a couple hours in the morning and then maybe a walk or something with my wife and breakfast. I have breakfast during all this.
然后我尽量留出一些时间写作，或者从事一些艺术项目。所以早上我会花几个小时写作或从事艺术项目，然后也许和我的妻子散个步或者做些其他事情。在这一切期间我会吃早餐。
And then I can turn to the sort of connected world, email and the podcasts and so forth. And so there's this balance between privacy, introverted privacy, let's say, and disconnect from everyone, except for my wife, and then contemplated reconnection with the virtual world. That seems to be working out pretty well. You want to get a balance of that that's actually to use a terrible cliche, sustainable, right? So you want to hit your projects hard, but you have to leave in that not with entertainment but with culture because those are not the same thing. Entertainment is an approximation to culture. You need to leave in that with culture. That's beauty and drama and art and all of that. And then with intimate relationships and friendships and well, it's very difficult to get the balance of all that correct. And it's very difficult to do that virtually.
然后我能转向与网络世界相连的那一类事物，比如电子邮件和播客等等。因此，在个人隐私和与所有人（除了我的妻子）保持脱离的内向隐私之间存在着平衡，然后再思考如何与虚拟世界重新连接。这看起来似乎运行得相当顺利。你想要获得这种平衡，用一个糟糕的陈词滥调来说，就是要可持续的平衡，对吗？所以你想要专注于你的项目，但不是仅仅为了娱乐，而是为了培养文化因素，因为这两者并不相同。娱乐只是文化的近似。你需要在其中保留文化的因素。那就是美、戏剧、艺术等等。同时，还需要保持亲密关系和友谊，嗯，要正确地平衡这一切非常困难。在虚拟世界中做到这一点也非常困难。
But I certainly wouldn't forego the technology and neither would the rest of us. It's like people complain about their phones, but they carry them with them everywhere they go. And I'm not cynical about that. The phone, it's not a phone. God only knows what it is, but it's definitely not a phone. And so it's not surprising that since it just appeared, and it's so insanely powerful that we don't know what to do with it and that might even rack everything, like God only knows, Twitter itself could bring civilization to a halt. We don't know how to manage the unintended consequences of our technological prowess.
但我肯定不会放弃这项技术，其他人也不会。就像人们抱怨他们的手机，但他们无论走到哪里都带着手机。我对此并不愤世嫉俗。这个手机，它不是一个普通的手机。只有上帝知道它是什么，但它绝对不是一部手机。因此，不足为奇的是，它突然出现并且功能强大到我们不知道该如何使用，甚至可能拆解一切，就像只有上帝知道的，Twitter本身可能会使文明陷入停滞。我们不知道如何管理技术实力带来的意想不到后果。
And that's exactly it. We invent technology often, it seems, for efficiency or to increase productivity. And it's almost impossible because of that ignorance to what the unintended consequences might be to predict them ahead of time. So we optimize. An essential doctrine of conservative political philosophy, right, is be aware of unintended consequences. It's like, oh no, this thing will just do what I want it to do with nothing else. It's like, no, even Marx knew that wasn't true. Marx developed a concept of alienation. We get alienated from the products of our effort. That's part of the reason he didn't like factories. And fair enough, because factory work, which is repetitive, in some sense destroys our artisanal relationship with what we produce. Now the problem with Marx's analysis is that, yeah, but it's pretty damn efficient and it lifts people out of absolute poverty really quickly. So, but that doesn't mean that an existential philosophers after Marx developed the concept of alienation to quite a high degree. And technology does alienate us because of its artificiality and its coldness and its mechanistic nature, all of that. And well, we have to contend with that wisely.
这就是实情。似乎我们常常发明技术，是为了提高效率或增加生产力。然而由于对无意后果的无知，几乎不可能事先预测到它们会产生什么影响。因此，我们进行优化。保守政治哲学中的一个重要原则就是要意识到无意后果。就像是“哦，不，这个东西只会按我想要的方式运作，不会有其他变化。”然而，即使马克思也知道这不是真的。马克思提出了“异化”的概念。我们与我们的努力产生的产品疏离开来，这也是他不喜欢工厂的部分原因。说得没错，因为重复性的工厂工作破坏了我们与所生产物品的工艺关系。现在马克思的分析存在问题，是的，工厂确实非常高效，可以迅速使人们摆脱绝对贫困。但这并不意味着马克思之后存在主义哲学家就没继续研究“异化”的概念。由于技术的人为性、冷漠性和机械性，它确实会使我们感到疏离。对此，我们需要明智地应对。
And then you ask, well, how do you contend with things wisely? And I would say, well, don't pollute your thoughts with deceit. You compromise your own wisdom. How are you going to make intelligent, not intelligent decisions, wise decisions? That's why you shouldn't lie. It's like you're warping the mechanism that orients you in the world. Do you really want to do that? This is a brutal world, man. And I've seen this in my clinical practice. People whose houses are built on foundations of sand and the wind starts to blow and the floods start to rise and they are in such trouble, such trouble. If you're lucky and something terrible comes your way and you're reasonably honest and your relationships are in good order, maybe you won't end up in hell. And I mean hell. I don't mean death. There's lots of situations you can get yourself in where death would be far preferable to what you're going through. So you need to be afraid of that. It's like, don't lie. In my clinical practice, in 20 years, working with every sort of person you could imagine, I never, ever saw anyone get away with anything even once. So, yeah, we're all subject, not least to the judgment of our own conscience. Try to escape from that. No one can escape from that.
然后你问，怎么样才能明智地应对事物呢？我会说，不要让欺骗污染你的思想。你会牺牲自己的智慧。你要如何做出明智的决策而不是聪明的决策？这就是为什么你不应该撒谎。就像你在扭曲你在世界中的方向感一样。你真的想这样做吗？这是一个残酷的世界，伙计。我在我的临床实践中见证过这一点。有些人的房子建在沙滩上，风开始吹，洪水开始涨，他们遇到了如此麻烦，如此麻烦。如果你幸运地遇到了一些可怕的事情，而你相当诚实且你的人际关系井井有条，也许你就不会陷入地狱。我指的是地狱。我不是指死亡。有很多情况，你会发现死亡比你经历的更可取。所以你需要害怕那个。就像，不要撒谎。在我的临床实践中，20年来，我接触过各种各样的人，我从未见过任何人逃脱责任的一次。所以，是的，我们都会受到审判，尤其是受到自己良心的审判。试图逃避是不可能的。没有人能逃避。
Over the last two years, the world has gone through this pandemic. For a lot of people, this is the first time, especially for a certain generation, this is the first time they've experienced such unpredictable, tectonic, destabilization in their lives. I didn't even believe society was something that could close. I didn't believe the tech. I didn't even know there was tectonic plates under my business that could shut down my business, right?
在过去的两年里，全世界经历了这场流行病的冲击。对于很多人来说，这是第一次经历这样不可预测、地动山摇的生活动荡，尤其是对于某一代人来说。我甚至不相信社会会关闭。我不相信技术。我甚至不知道我的企业的基石居然是可以关闭我的商业的地壳板块。
And also in your, over the last two years, you've undergone some really, you know, I don't even know what the right adjective is to use to. Tectonic's not bad. I could go with tectonic then.
而且，在过去的两年里，你经历了一些真的，你知道的，我甚至都不知道用什么形容词来形容的事情。构造性的不错，我可以用构造性来形容。
Sure. Tectonic, you know, unfortunate challenges, I'll say, in your life, but also, you know, with your family. What are the lessons we learn from the pandemic and from that type of tectonic suffering about what actually matters in our lives? Well, we'll see with regard to the pandemic because although in some sense, it is in some ways over our reaction to it is by no means over. And part of the reason that we overreacted, I would say so precipitously to it, is that we were unprepared for such things in our naivety. And then we rushed to imitate a totalitarian society in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic emergence.
当然。地壳构造，你知道，生活中的不幸挑战，我得说，还有你的家庭。从疫情和那种地壳构造中的苦难中我们学到了什么关于生活中真正重要的事情呢？关于疫情，我们还得等着看，因为虽然从某种意义上说，它在某种程度上已经结束了，但我们对它的反应绝不会结束。我们过度反应的原因之一，我会说是因为我们对这样的事情毫无准备，太过天真。然后，在疫情爆发后的紧急情况下，我们急于模仿极权社会。
And that's something that everybody should think about a lot. And we're not done with all that totalitarian nonsense. Yet a lot of that's driven by, well, fear and naivety. I mean, 50% of Democrats in the United States believe you have a 50% chance of being hospitalized with COVID and 25% of Republicans believe the same thing. And you can point a finger at people and laugh at their ignorance, but you should really ask, well, why is this overestimate of that magnitude and what does that mean in relationship to policy? And I've had conversations with people advising at the highest level of government, particularly in Canada, who've told me flat out. And they're very reliable sources that none of the COVID policy for the last year was driven by reliance on science. It's all opinion pool. And that's really pernicious because, well, who's asking the questions and how did they set up the answer and who's answering and in what emotional state and so to what degree are we led by considerations of short-term propitiation of unwarranted fear? Well, that's no way for free people to live. It certainly won't work in the long run. We're already seeing tremendous supply chain disruptions and likely the emergence of an inflationary pressure that we haven't experienced since the 1970s in the aftermath of the oil shocks. And none of that has sorted itself out yet. I believe that we will conclude that our response to the pandemic caused more death and misery than the pandemic itself. And we have no end game in sight.
这是每个人都应该非常思考的问题。我们还没有摆脱那种极权主义的荒谬。然而，很多这种情况是由恐惧和天真驱动的。我的意思是，50%的美国民主党人相信你被感染新冠病毒后住院的概率是50%，而25%的共和党人也相信同样的事情。你可以指责他们的无知并取笑他们，但你真的应该问问，为什么这种估计如此夸大，以及这对政策意味着什么？我曾与那些在政府最高层担任顾问的人进行过对话，特别是在加拿大，他们直截了当地告诉我，并且他们是非常可靠的消息来源，过去一年的新冠病毒政策并不依赖于科学依据，而是纯粹的观点集合。这真的非常有害，因为谁在提问，他们又是如何设置答案的，回答的人处于什么样的情绪状态，以及我们在多大程度上受到了对于毫无根据的恐惧的短期安抚的影响？对于自由人来说，这是不可接受的。它肯定不会在长期内起作用。我们已经看到了巨大的供应链中断，很可能会出现自20世纪70年代油价冲击后以来没有经历过的通货膨胀压力。所有这些问题都还没有解决。我相信我们会得出结论，我们对疫情的应对造成了比疫情本身更多的死亡和痛苦。而我们的终极目标还没有显现出来。
Another thing I asked the people that I was speaking with is like, when is this over? Well, we don't know. Well, what would over look like? Well, we don't really know. And now what you see is this insistence on about a monthly basis that a new and radically different variant has emerged. And this virus, virus is mutated all the time, but this virus particularly mutates. And there are small mutations and medium-sized mutations, numbers, let's say, and also effect and larger-scale mutations. When is that a variant? Well, how about whenever it's convenient for the pharmaceutical companies? Think, well, that's cynical. It's, is it now?
我向我交谈的人们询问的另一件事是，这个状况何时结束？好吧，我们不知道。那么，结束会是什么样子？好吧，我们真的不知道。现在你看到的是，每个月都坚持说有一个新的、完全不同的变种出现。而这个病毒，病毒一直在变异，但这个病毒特别容易变异。有小的变异和中等规模的变异，还有数量和影响更大的变异。那么，什么是变种？好吧，这取决于制药公司方便的时候？你可能会想，这么说太愤世嫉俗了。是吗？
The biggest lawsuits in the history of the American judicial system have been levied against the largest pharmaceutical companies on a regular basis for the last 20 years. And since when has it been a proposition of the political left that pharmaceutical companies necessarily have our best interests in mind? Now, I'm not particularly cynical about pharmaceutical companies. I think they have a hard job, both in terms of research and development and marketing and sales. And they're going to do what they can to market and sell. But that doesn't mean that they are now to be the arbiters of all public policy, because our politicians are too cowardly and incompetent to do anything but devolve their responsibilities to so-called experts, domain experts.
过去20年中，美国司法系统历史上最大的诉讼案件定期针对最大的制药公司提出。自从何时起，左派政治主张中就认为制药公司必然以我们的最佳利益为考量？我对制药公司并不特别愤世嫉俗。我认为他们有着艰难的任务，既要进行研发，又要进行市场营销和销售。他们会尽力进行市场推广和销售。但这并不意味着他们现在应该成为所有公共政策的裁决者，因为我们的政客们太胆小和无能，只能把自己的责任委托给所谓的专家，领域专家们。
Politics is not public health. That's medicine. Politics is the art of analyzing the entire situation and charting, of course, forward, all things considered. And for politicians to trot out the experts and say, follow the science, just means that they've abdicated their own responsibilities. And I think it's appalling. I mean, I'm not convinced that the evidence that masks work is scientifically credible. It's certainly at least doubtful. And that's just masks. I read a paper the other day suggesting that to prevent the transmission of one case of COVID, you have to lock down a thousand people. How is that justifiable? Especially given that the mortality rate of COVID is actually quite low. Unless you have a preexisting health problem, particularly obesity, and although old age also qualifies, as it does for most diseases, but not all.
政治并非公共卫生。那是医学的范畴。政治是分析整个情况并制定行动方案的艺术，在考虑到所有因素的基础上前进。当政治家们引用专家并说要追随科学时，实际上意味着他们已经放弃了自己的责任。我认为这是令人震惊的。我的意思是，我并不相信口罩有效的科学证据具有科学可信性。至少是存在疑问的。而这仅仅只是口罩而已。我前几天看到一篇论文，建议为了防止一例COVID的传播，就要封锁一千人。这怎么能被证明是合理的呢？尤其是考虑到COVID的死亡率实际上非常低。除非你有先前的健康问题，尤其是肥胖，以及老年人也算在内，因为大部分疾病都是如此，但并非所有疾病都是如此。
And with regards to, let's say, the issue of child vaccination is like children have an unbelievably tiny chance of dying from COVID. I don't think there's any scientific justification for immunizing children under 12. Now, at least it's debatable. And I'm not a domain expert, although I'm a decent scientist. And I know how to read the research material. And so, well, we'll see what we have to learn from these tectonic shifts underneath.
关于儿童接种疫苗的问题，比如说儿童患新冠病毒后死亡的机会极小。我认为在12岁以下的儿童中没有科学依据来进行免疫接种。现在至少可以提出争议。虽然我不是领域专家，但我是一名合格的科学家，我知道如何阅读研究材料。因此，我们将看到在这些巨变中我们需要学到什么。
And you might ask yourself, well, was that a tectonic shift in dire physical necessity because the COVID virus was genuinely so dangerous? Or was it an indication tectonically of our absolute inadequacy in the face of even a moderate existential challenge? And maybe it's a little call of A and a little call of B, you know?
你可能会问自己，这是因为新冠病毒真的如此危险，导致了一次紧急的地壳运动吗？还是这表明我们在面对即使是中等程度的存在挑战时绝对不足？也许这既有部分是A的呼喊，也有部分是B的呼唤，你知道的。
So I have to ask the question, if we were to make Jordan Peterson, the president of the world, and these were your decisions to make, do you know what you would have done differently or in response to this virus emerging in Wuhan? I would say, well, thank you for the offer, but I declined the position. And the reason I would say that is because I think the right solution to the most serious problems is to be found at the level of the individual. So I don't think if I wanted to pursue what I regarded as the ultimate goal, the ultimate goal for me is the encouragement of the individual. And that's not essentially a political enterprise. It's essentially a theological enterprise and politics has to be subordinate to that.
所以我必须问这个问题，如果我们让乔丹·彼得森成为全球总统，这些决定由你来做，你知道你会为了应对这个在武汉爆发的病毒而作出哪些不同的决定吗？我会说，谢谢你的提议，但是我拒绝这个职位。我之所以这么说是因为我认为解决最严重问题的正确方法应该在个体层面找到。所以我不认为如果我想追求我所认为的最终目标，那个对我来说最终目标是鼓励个体。而这不是一个政治事业，而是一个神学事业，政治必须服从于它。
And so I've debated throughout the entire course of my life whether I would adopt a political career. It was my initial ambition when I was very young, 14, I would say. But when push came to shove at every decision point in my life, if I had to choose between working on the encouragement of the individual and pursuing a political career, I always chose the former. And that's happened every time the decision has come up.
所以，我一直在我一生中的整个过程中思考是否应该从事政治事业。这是我在很小的时候，大约14岁的时候的初衷。但是，每当我生命中的决策关键点到来时，如果我必须选择在鼓励个人方面工作还是追求政治事业，我总是选择了前者。而且，每次决策出现时，这种情况总是发生。
I've been approached by people in Canada to involve myself more deeply in a practical role and also publicly as a political figure. But I'd rather do what I'm doing. I'm in contact with people working politically all the time, both on the people in the middle, people on the right, people on the left. I'm agnostic about that because I know full well that conservatives have something to say and left-leaning liberals have something to say. That's basically predicated to some degree on their temperament.
我在加拿大被一些人邀请更深入地参与实际角色，并在公众中扮演政治人物。但我宁愿继续做我现在在做的事情。我一直与从事政治工作的人保持联系，不论他们属于中间派、右派还是左派。我对此持中立态度，因为我非常清楚保守派和左倾自由派都有值得倾听的观点。这基本上取决于他们的气质。
So conservatives tend to be more conscientious. So that's orderly and industrious, dutiful, patriotic, willing to make and keep verbal contracts, reliable, capable of implementation at the level of detail. That's kind of conservative virtues there, but they tend to be lower in creativity, openness to experience. They don't think as divergently and their conscientiousness tends to constrain their creativity. Whereas the liberal types, they're high in openness to experience. That's the creativity dimension, but they tend to be lower in conscientiousness, particularly orderlyness. And so what that means is those with a liberal temperament tend to be creative slash entrepreneurs and those with a conservative temperament tend to be managerial and administrative. That doesn't mean they can't run businesses.
因此，保守派往往更加有良知。因此，他们有秩序、勤勉、尽责、爱国，愿意制定和遵守口头契约，可靠，能够实施细节层面上的工作。这些都是保守主义的优点，但他们在创造力和开放经验方面往往较低。他们的思维不够多元化，而他们的责任心往往限制了他们的创造力。相反，自由派倾向于对新经验持开放态度。这是创造力的维度，但他们在责任心方面往往较低，特别是在纪律方面较低。因此，这意味着那些具有自由派气质的人往往是有创造力的/企业家，而那些具有保守派气质的人往往是管理和行政岗位的人。这并不意味着他们不能经营企业。
Well, you want a conservative person to run your business. You might want a more liberal person to pepper you with off the wall ideas. And then if you're going to run an enterprise, business or a society, there has to be a continual dialogue between people of different temperaments so that we can keep the ship of state, let's say, tracking to an ever moving destination. That's why free speech is so necessary. It's not another right. It's the right.
嗯，你希望一个保守的人来经营你的生意。你可能希望一个更自由的人给你带来一些奇思妙想。而如果你要经营一个企业、商业或社会，就必须让不同性格的人之间保持不断的对话，以便让我们的国家航船朝着不断变化的目标前进。这就是为什么言论自由如此重要。它不是另一种权利，而是唯一的权利。
So because none of us know what's going on in the final analysis, because the future is different than the past, really. We have to talk about what to do all the time, because even if we made wise decisions in the past, that doesn't mean that we can mindlessly replicate those decisions right now in the present to deal with a changing future.
因为在最后分析中，我们都不知道发生了什么，因为未来与过去不同。我们必须一直讨论要做什么，因为即使过去我们做出明智的决策，这并不意味着我们现在可以盲目地复制那些决策来应对不断变化的未来。
So I want to help encourage people to become the sort of people who can engage in that free dialogue. And I think that's the best way forward, especially as we all become more technologically powerful. It's like, you better be smart enough to use your iPhone. And that's pretty damn smart, let's say wise, because that's no trivial gadget. And if you're not careful with it, it will turn on you. We'll build authoritarian presumptions into our artificial intelligence systems, for example. And then look the hell out. So if you're going to have a hydrogen bomb, you better be wise enough to wield it.
所以，我想要帮助鼓励人们成为能够进行自由对话的人。而我认为这是最好的前进方式，尤其是随着我们变得越来越技术强大。就好像，你最好足够聪明去使用你的iPhone。那是非常聪明的，我们可以说是智慧的，因为那可不是个微不足道的玩意。如果你不小心使用它，它可能会对你产生反作用。比如，我们会将威权主义的假设融入我们的人工智能系统中。然后，你可得小心了。所以，如果你要拥有一颗氢弹，你最好足够明智来驾驭它。
On that point of the encouragement of the individual, we all have people in our lives that we want to encourage. We hope. Yeah, we hope, right? And we sometimes fall foul of trying to force our own bias, our own intention for them on them. What is the best way, if I've got a friend of my life or a partner that I want to encourage to come out of their place of despair into a better place, how do I effectively do that without overpowering them or stifling them or making them feel inadequate, which is sometimes the consequence of trying to change someone you love?
在个人鼓励的方面，我们都有希望鼓励的人生。是的，我们希望。但是，有时候我们会陷入将自己的偏见、意图强加给他们的境地。如果我有一个生活中的朋友或伴侣，我希望能鼓励他们走出绝望的境地，进入一个更好的地方，那么最好的方式是什么呢？如何有效地做到这一点，而不是压倒对方、扼杀对方或让对方感到自卑呢？因为试图改变自己所爱的人有时会导致这样的后果。
Well, example is good. But then I would say, disabuse yourself of the notion that you know what is best for this person. You don't not only do you not know, you actually don't want that responsibility for two reasons. Let's say they do what you say and something good happens to them. Well, whose victory is that? Yours are theirs. And if it's yours, did you just steal it? And then let's say they fail following your advice. Well, they pay the price for that and you can skip away merrily and say, well, I should have spoke more carefully. It's like you don't mess about with people's destiny. You do not know where they're headed.
好的，例子很好。但是我要告诉你，不要误以为你知道对这个人来说什么是最好的。事实上，你不但不知道，而且你也不想承担这个责任，原因有两个。假设他们按照你的建议去做，结果发生了好事。那么，这是谁的胜利？是你的还是他们的？如果是你的，你是不是刚刚偷走了他们的成功？然后，假设他们遵循了你的建议却失败了。他们为此付出代价，而你却可以轻松跳开，说：“嗯，我应该说得更小心一些。”就像你不能随意涉足别人的命运。你不知道他们将去向何方。
Now, having said that, you do what you're doing in this interview, in this podcast, you ask people questions, real questions, you know, like, how are you feeling? Oh, I'm not doing so good today. Well, you know, what's up? What's going on? And you can't think, well, I'm gonna ask questions to lead this person in a particular direction because that's the same game, the same instrumental game. You have to see what it is that you wanna know. Because see this when people ask me questions after my lectures, you know, now and then, or during a Q and A, now and then people get up and they'll ask your real question. It's part of the ongoing dialogue. Some struck them, they stand up. There's something they really wanna know.
现在，话虽如此，你在这次采访中做你正在做的事情，在这个播客中问人们问题，真正的问题，你知道，比如，你感觉如何？哦，我今天不太好。嗯，你知道，怎么了？发生了什么事？你不能想着，我要问一些问题来导向这个人的某个方向，因为那是同样的游戏，同样的手段。你必须看看自己想知道什么。因为你看，当人们在我的讲座结束后，有时候提问，或者在问答环节中，偶尔有人站起来问一个真正的问题。这是持续对话的一部分。某些问题触动到了他们，他们站起来。有些事情他们真的很想知道。
So honest question, and that goes real well, but not infrequently, someone stands up with a little prepared speech that's packaged as a question. So I get this from Christian traditionalists fairly frequently. They get up and they ask me about my religious convictions, but really what they wanna do is corner me into admitting that I should accept Jesus Christ as my savior and join a particular, let's say, denomination. It's not a question. It's just a manipulation. And so your questions, like your statements, your question should be honest.
诚实地说，这种情况经常发生，不少人站起来，准备好的演讲包装成问题。我经常会收到基督教传统主义者的这种问题。他们会问我有关我的宗教信仰，但实际上他们想要做的是逼迫我承认我应该接受耶稣基督作为我的救世主，并加入一个特定的教派。这并不是一个问题，而只是一种操纵手段。因此，你的问题，就像你的陈述一样，应该是诚实的。
And if you ask people questions and you really listen, they will untangle themselves. And that's partly why people love to be attended to, you know? Like, if I meet people on the street, you know, I ask them their name, they're all usually flustered when they come up to me. They don't really wanna interrupt me, and then they're flustered. And the first thing I do is shake their hand and ask them their name. And I listen, you know, not that good at remembering names, but I listen to it. And they know how to say their name. And so it kinda settles them down. And then it sort of marks them out as a person against the background, eh? And then if I pay attention to them and listen, they will tell me something in like 10 seconds that I need to know, because they have something to say, you know? And then if you listen, people tell you what they have to say, and then you get wise because you collect all that.
如果你问其他人问题并真正倾听，他们会自己梳理清楚。这也是为什么人们喜欢被关注的部分原因，你明白吗？比如，如果我在街上遇到别人，我会问他们的名字，当他们走近我时，他们通常都有些手忙脚乱。他们并不真的想打扰我，所以显得有些慌乱。我会首先和他们握手，然后问他们的名字。我会倾听，虽然不太擅长记名字，但我会倾听。他们知道怎么说自己的名字。这样会让他们镇定下来。然后，这也将他们从周围环境中凸显出来，对不对？如果我关注他们并倾听，他们会在十秒钟内告诉我一些我需要了解的事情，因为他们有话要说，你明白吗？然后，如果你倾听，人们会告诉你他们想要表达的内容，然后你会变得更有见地，因为你收集了这些信息。
And so you wanna help someone. Well, first of all, you would decide that you're aiming towards help, right? And that you do that in the spirit of ignorance. This is what every good clinician learns is I don't know where you're headed. I don't know what's wrong with you. This is a hard problem, man. It's like, what's your problem? I don't know what your problem is. So let's find that out first, and then let's find out one thing you can ask people, this is actually useful in an argument with someone you love. They're upset with you.
所以你想要帮助别人。首先，你要决定自己的目标是帮助，对吧？而且你要以无知的态度去帮助。每个优秀的临床医生都会明白，我不知道你将走向何方，我不知道你有什么问题。这是个困难的问题，伙计。就像是，你有什么问题？我不知道你的问题是什么。所以让我们先找出答案，然后找出一个你可以向人们询问的事情。这在和你爱的人争吵时实际上会很有用。他们对你生气了。
What are your preconditions for satisfaction? Now, I wouldn't state it like that. It's like, if I could give you what you wanted right now in the context of this argument, and I wasn't doing it in a manipulative way, what is it that I would have to say or do that would in principle satisfy you? And that's a hard question, you know? And the person might say, well, I think you should apologize about this. And then I will say, what words should I use? And they'll say, well, if you loved me, you'd know. And I would say, no, I'm stupid and ignorant. And I don't know what the right words are to satisfy you. So why don't you give me a hand with that and all utter them inelegantly and awkwardly in a good faith demonstration of my commitment to peace?
你对于满意的前提条件是什么？现在，我不会这样说。就像，如果我能够立刻按照这个争论的背景给你你想要的东西，并且我并不是出于操纵的目的，那么我会需要说或做什么，从原则上让你满意呢？这是一个很难回答的问题，你知道吗？然后这个人可能会说，嗯，我认为你应该为此道歉。然后我会问，我应该用什么话来道歉呢？他们可能会说，如果你爱我，你就会知道。我会说，不，我愚蠢无知。我不知道什么样的话才能让你满意。那么为什么不帮我一把，让我笨拙地以善意的方式表达我的和平承诺呢？
And that won't be so good because maybe it would have been better if I came up with it myself, but maybe next time I can do slightly better. And that works. It requires the person who's after you to think through the question even of whether there's anything that could be said or done that would satisfy them. And if the answer to that is no, well, probably the relationship is over, but certainly the person that they're accusing has been put in an absolutely impossible position. But usually, almost inevitably, if the person meditates on it for a bit, there is something that would satisfy them that can be negotiated as long as they're willing to give you the opportunity to do it stupidly and badly.
那样并不太好，因为也许如果是我自己想出来会更好，但也许下次我可以稍微做得更好一些。这很有效。它需要在你之后的人思考这个问题，甚至思考是否有什么可以说或做能满足他们的东西。如果答案是否定的，那么关系很可能结束，但被指责的人绝对陷入了一个极其困难的境地。但通常，几乎必然地，如果一个人稍微反思一下，就会发现有些东西能满足他们，并且可以通过谈判获得，只要他们愿意给你机会去愚蠢地、不好地去做。
So listening, man, is Jimmy Carr, I talked to Jimmy Carr two weeks ago at the famous media. Yeah, it was real interesting. He said comedy is the most dialogical of the entertainment forms. And I thought, well, what do you mean by that? Because you're just talking. It's a monologue, right? Now I do monologues, but I pay attention to the audience. I'm always talking to individual people in the audience and watching their reactions and listening to the audience as a whole. So even though it's a lecture, let's say, or a talk, I'm watching the audience and responding. So we're in a kind of dance.
嗯，听着，伙计，是吉米·卡尔，我两周前在一个著名的媒体节目上和吉米·卡尔聊过。是的，真的很有趣。他说喜剧是最具对话性的娱乐形式。我当时想，什么叫对话性呢？毕竟你只是在说话，是吧？虽然我也做独角戏，但我会关注观众。我一直在和观众中的个体进行对话，观察他们的反应，同时也在倾听整个观众的声音。所以即使是一场讲座或演讲，我还是会观察观众并做出回应。所以我们就像在进行一种舞蹈。
Well, Carr pointed out that comedians before they hit the road, and this is virtually invariably the case, they have their new routines. So they're their corpus of potentially funny jokes. And then they do 200 shows in front of small audiences. And the audience either laughs or doesn't. And if you're listening, you collect all the jokes that people laugh at. If you do that 200 times, you have nothing but hilarious material, but you listened. And then you can go out on the road.
卡尔指出，在喜剧演员开始巡回演出之前，几乎总会这样，他们会准备新的表演节目。这些节目里包含了一系列潜在的有趣笑话。然后，他们会在小型观众面前进行200场演出。观众可能会笑，也可能不笑。而如果你在倾听的同时，会收集那些引起观众笑声的笑话。如果你这样做了200次，那么你手中将拥有一堆令人捧腹大笑的素材，而你也在倾听。然后，你就可以展开巡回演出了。
And that was very interesting to me because humor is a mysterious phenomenon, experientially and conceptually. And it's sort of precognitive and instinctual, but it's also extremely sophisticated. Then there's an element of transcendence about it, right? Because you can laugh at yourself. And that's in some sense the highest form of humor. And so it's so interesting that we can criticize and elevate ourselves at the same time and that we find that intensely pleasurable. And so a good comedian collects ways to do that, shares them with the audience. And he's listening. And so if you want to help someone, the best way to help someone is not to give them advice, but to listen to them.
对我来说，这非常有趣，因为幽默是一个神秘的现象，无论是从经验上还是从概念上来看都是如此。它有种先知性的本能感，但同时也是非常复杂精妙的。然后，它还有一种超越性的要素，对吧？因为你可以笑自己。从某种意义上说，这是幽默的最高形式。那么我们既可以批评又可以提升自己，而且我们发现这是极为愉悦的。因此，一个优秀的喜剧演员会收集各种方式来做到这一点，并与观众分享。他在倾听。所以，如果你想帮助某人，最好的方法不是给他们建议，而是倾听他们。
So. I had a guest actually come on this podcast before Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr was on two weeks ago and we had a great conversation about happiness and the nature of happiness. And the guest before Jimmy Carr wrote in my diary, which is a tradition we have now where all the guests that come on write a question for the next guest. So there is a question there for you. But the guest wrote a question which changed his life, which is, are you happy? And I, from reading your work and understanding your position on happiness and it not being the thing to aim for, which really struck me because I thought, you know, I thought life was the north star of our lives was to try and be happy.
我之前有位嘉宾在Jimmy Carr之前来了我的播客节目。Jimmy Carr两周前上过，我们就快乐和快乐的本质进行了一次很棒的对话。在Jimmy Carr之前的这位嘉宾在我的日记上写了一段话，我们现在有一个传统，每位嘉宾都会为下一位嘉宾写一个问题。所以，那里有一个问题是给你的。但是这位嘉宾提出了一个改变他生活的问题，那就是，你快乐吗？我从阅读你的作品并理解你对快乐的立场，即它并不是我们追求的目标，这真的让我感到震撼，因为我曾以为生活的目标就是追求快乐。
I guess my question is, what, I was gonna ask you that question. Aim to be good and pray for happiness. So the question I was gonna, it was pretty much that is, what is a better question for me to ask you if I'm checking in on you? Because we asked that question with good intentions. Are you happy? What's a better question for me to ask Jordan Peterson? How are you doing? How are you doing? How are you doing? Brilliantly and terribly. Good.
我想我的问题是，我本来要问你那个问题的。努力做好，祈求幸福。所以我本来要问的问题，基本上就是，如果我关心你的状况，有什么更好的问题可以问你呢？因为我们问那个问题是出于善意的。你快乐吗？那么对于我来问Jordan Peterson来说，有什么更好的问题吗？你过得怎样？你过得怎样？你过得怎样？非常好和非常糟。好的。
That's. You know, when you listen to a profound piece of music, one that sort of spans the whole emotional experience, it's not happy. Happy is elevator music and probably you just shouldn't listen to that at all. Right? And you think, why? Well, it's harmless, it's treatly, it's sweet, simple, it lacks depth, it's shallow, that's a problem. It doesn't have that deep sense of awe and horror, I would say, that is characteristic of the best of all music.
就是这样。当你听一首深沉的音乐作品时，那种贯穿整个情感体验的，它并不是快乐的。快乐的音乐适合电梯里的背景乐，或许你应该根本不应该听它。对吧？你会想，为什么呢？这是因为它无害，没什么艺术，很甜蜜、简单，缺乏深度，是个问题所在。它没有那种深刻的敬畏和恐怖感，我想说，这是所有优秀音乐的特征之一。
You know, you listen to some simple music, so-called, Hank Williams is a good example. You know, the blues cowboy from the 50s who died of alcoholism when he was 27 and whose voice sounds like an 80-year-old man. Simple melody, no, but. There's nothing simple in the song and in the voice. It's deep, you know, it's like the blues. It's like black blues in the States from the 20s and it's was certainly influenced by that tradition. There's this. The mission of a deep suffering at the same time as you get the beautiful transcendence of the music.
你知道，有些简单的音乐你会听，比如所谓的汉克·威廉姆斯，他是一个很好的例子。你知道的，那位五十年代的蓝调牛仔，因为酗酒在27岁时去世，他的声音听起来像一个80岁的老人。简单的旋律，不过呢... 这首歌和这个声音里面没有什么简单的东西。它很深邃，你知道吗，就像蓝调一样。就像20世纪美国的黑人蓝调，当然在很大程度上受到那种传统的影响。同时，这首歌带有一种深沉的苦难使命感，但又能体现出美妙的超越之处。
And that's meaning, you know, that's awful in the most fundamental sense, but you need an antidote to suffering and it has to be deep and deep moves you tectorically and it's not a trivial thing. But that's better than happiness. And maybe if you're lucky, well, you're pursuing that and while you're immersed in it, you get to be happy and you should fall on your knees and be grateful for that when it happens. You know, it's a gift. It really is a gift and it comes upon you unexpectedly, your happiness, you know. But you aim to climb uphill to the highest peak, you can possibly envision.
那是指的，你知道的，那在最基本的意义上是可怕的，但你需要一个抵抗苦难的解药，它必须是深刻的，深刻的事情会使你发生巨大的变化，这不是一件琐碎的事情。但是这比快乐更好。也许如果你幸运的话，在你追求这个过程中，你会感到幸福，当这种情况发生时，你应该跪下，并对此心怀感激。你知道的，这是一份礼物。它确实是一份礼物，它会突然降临在你身上，你的幸福。但你的目标是爬上最高的山峰，你能想象到的最高的山峰。
And that's better than happiness. Why did you include terribly? Well, for example, now, when I go, wherever I go in the world, people come up to me and they're usually. I wouldn't say they're happy to see me. They're often in tears, you know. And they often have a pretty rough story to relate, you know. They were suicidal or nihilistic or homicidal or trapped, desperate. You know, and they tell me that real fast. And then they say, I've overcome that to a large degree and thank you for that. And you think, well, that's really something to have that happen over and over.
这比幸福更好。为什么你要加上"terribly"这个词呢？举个例子，比如现在，无论我去世界的哪个地方，人们都会上前来找我，他们通常不会说他们很高兴见到我。他们常常是泪流满面的，你知道的。他们通常有一个相当艰辛的故事要讲述，你知道。他们曾经有过自杀、虚无主义、杀人或困顿，绝望等经历。它们会很快地告诉我这些。然后他们说，我在很大程度上战胜了这些，感谢你。你想，嗯，这一次又一次地发生真是太不可思议了。
In some ways, you might think, well, how could anything better possibly happen to you than to have people come up to you all over the world, strangers, and open themselves up like that, like their old friends so quickly. But at the same time, it's an awful thing because you see, even in the revelation of their triumph, the initial depth of their despair. So I wouldn't change that, but it's not nothing. It's certainly not just happiness. It's better than happiness, but it's almost unbearable. God, tears again.
在某种程度上，你可能会想，有什么比全世界的陌生人走向你、像老朋友一样敞开心扉，给你带来更好的事情呢？但与此同时，这也是一件糟糕的事情，因为你看到了，即使在他们胜利的显现中，也能感受到最初绝望的深度。所以我不会改变这一点，但这并不是什么小事。这当然不仅仅是快乐。它比快乐更好，但几乎无法承受。天啊，又是泪水。
It's been quite a two weeks in the UK. It's been amazing. It's been amazing. It's such a great country, this country. It's such a profound place. It was so wonderful to see Cambridge and Oxford and to be welcomed by the students. I saw the cues around the block and the reaction you got. I watched the talk in Cambridge and it was so wonderful to see because, you know, I know that you don't do what you do for credit. That kind of seems to be, you know, the antithesis of pursuing your truth and doing it in the cause of truth. But it was so wonderful to see someone that I know has had such a profound impact on so many. Be received in such a way.
在英国的这两周真是太精彩了。太让人惊叹了。这个国家太了不起了。它是一个深奥的地方。能够看到剑桥和牛津，并受到学生们的欢迎，真是太美妙了。我看到了队伍绕着街区排成长龙，以及你引起的反应。我在剑桥听了演讲，真的太棒了，因为，你知道的，我知道你不为了功名利禄而做那些事情。这似乎是追寻真理和为真理而行动的反义词。但看到一个我知道对如此多人产生了深远影响的人，受到这样的接待，真是太美妙了。
We have a closing tradition. One of the, you know, I don't know, I do this, but one of the really great CEOs in our country, young guys bought a multi-billion dollar company, really great guy. It's like, hey, yesterday. And I actually told him for the first time who he was writing the question for. And I couldn't believe his face. Oh my God, that's the one person I want to have dinner with. This is probably the most successful young person in our country. And he was, and so he knew who he was writing the question for. So the question that the previous guest wrote is for you is, why do you do what you do to see what will happen? Some programs you cannot predict, right? You cannot predict how they're going to end. You have to run them.
我们有一个闭幕传统。就是，你知道的，我不知道，我做这个，但是我们国家有一个非常伟大的年轻CEO，他购买了一个价值数十亿美元的公司，真的是个非常出色的人。就像，嘿，就在昨天。我实际上第一次告诉了他他为谁写问题。我简直不敢相信他的表情。天哪，这就是我想和他共进晚餐的人。他可能是我们国家最成功的年轻人。所以他知道他在为谁写问题。前一个嘉宾为你写的问题是，你为什么要做你所做的事情，看看会发生什么？有些项目你无法预测对吧？你必须去运行它们。
Well, you know, I believe that truth will save the world. I believe that. So you speak truthfully and you watch what happens and you take your consequences. You know, and maybe you hope and have some faith that in the final analysis, things will work out in your favor, but perhaps they will and perhaps they won't, but that's faith. That's faith. That's faith. It's faith isn't believing in things you regard as ridiculous. Sacrificeing your intellect. It's a decision. No. Well, truth, beauty and love saved the world. Well, you could find out.
嗯，你知道，我相信真理将拯救世界。我真的相信。所以你说真话，看看会发生什么，承担你的后果。你知道，也许你希望并且有一些信念，在最终的分析中，事情会向你有利的方向发展，但也许会有也可能不会，但这就是信仰。这就是信仰。这就是信仰。信仰不是相信你认为荒谬的事情，不是牺牲你的智慧，而是一个决定。不是。嗯，真理、美和爱拯救了世界。那么你可以去发现。
Thank you doesn't seem to quite cut it for the impact you've had it even on me and also for giving me your time. I know you understand the tremendous value of time. I've seen it so much in your work. So I'm going to say thank you, but I'm also going to make a commitment to do something, which I think is more important, which is just to be truthful. And I think with the platform I have in the years I have ahead of me, maybe that's the greatest good that I can do to the world. So because you've come here, that's a pledge in a commitment I want to make to you.
谢谢似乎不足以表达你对我的影响，以及感谢你给予我的时间。我知道你理解时间的巨大价值，我在你的工作中看到了这一点。所以我要说谢谢，但我也要做出承诺，我认为这更重要，那就是保持真实。我认为在我未来的岁月里，凭借我所拥有的平台，可能这是我可以为世界做出的最大贡献。所以因为你来到这里，这是我对你的承诺和承诺。
As my highest form of thanks that I can give in a comic way, hopefully that will make the world a better place for everybody. Well, at least it will help ensure that you won't make the world worse place.
作为我能以一个滑稽的方式表达的最高感谢，希望这能让世界对每个人来说变得更好。好吧，至少这将有助于确保你不会让世界变得更糟。
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
非常感谢你。谢谢你。非常感谢你。谢谢你。
Matt, I appreciate you joining. Thank you so much. Thank you.
马特，感谢你的加入。非常感谢你。谢谢你。