Harvard Professor: REVEALING The 7 Big LIES About Exercise, Sleep, Running, Cancer & Sugar!!! - YouTube
发布时间 2023-07-10 00:00:20 来源
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A lot of people exercise because they believe it will help them to lose fat. One of the biggest debates on the planet. What advice have you got for me? So this is not a well-known fact. But, Daniel Lieberman. He studies and teaches humans are supposed to live. Author and professor at Harvard University. Exercise. Disease. Sleep nutrition. He has the answers on all of those things that most of us care about. We evolved to be very physically active. Working in the fields, hunting, gathering. But now we have in a world where only 50% of Americans ever exercise. And the rest of the world is headed our way. Cancer is depression, anxiety. Can attribute that to less physical activity.
很多人参加运动是因为他们相信这能帮助他们减肥。这是全球最大的争论之一。你有什么建议给我吗？所以这并不是众所周知的事实。但是，丹尼尔·利伯曼。他研究和教授人类应该生活的方式。他是哈佛大学的作者和教授。运动、疾病、睡眠和营养。他对我们大多数人关心的这些事情都有答案。我们进化成非常积极的身体活动。在田间劳作、狩猎、采集。但现在我们生活在一个只有50%的美国人参加运动的世界。而世界其他地区也朝着这个方向发展。癌症、抑郁症和焦虑都可以归因于较少的体力活动。
In fact, women who get 150 minutes of physical activity a week have about 30 to 50% lower breast cancer risks. And it's crazy, right? The problem is that we spend 3% of our medical budget on prevention. And yet 75% of the time the disease is a preventable disease. It's a completely backward stupid system. When you started writing this book about exercise, were there any instant changes that you implemented into your own life? Strength training. The more I study the importance of doing weights, especially as you age, the more I start kicking myself for being lazy about that. When people retire, they become less active. They tend to lose muscle, and then that starts off a vicious cycle. So what'd you say we shouldn't retire? Well, it's a very modern Western concept. And yes, we do pay a price for it.
事实上，每周进行150分钟身体活动的妇女罹患乳腺癌的风险要降低大约30%到50%。这是不是很惊人呢？问题在于我们只将3%的医疗预算用于预防。然而，疾病75%的时间都是可以预防的。这是一个完全颠倒的愚蠢系统。当您开始写这本关于运动的书时，您自己的生活中是否有任何即时的改变？增强训练。我对于进行举重的重要性进行的研究越多，特别是随着年龄的增长，我越开始责备自己懒惰。人们退休后，开始变得不那么活跃。他们往往会失去肌肉，然后开始了一个恶性循环。那我们是不是应该不退休呢？哦，这是一个非常现代的西方概念。是的，我们确实为此付出了代价。
So how does one go from having a negative opinion towards exercise to becoming an exerciser? As an evolutionary biologist, there are multiple ways of doing that. So Daniel? What are some of the biggest myths within exercise? Gosh, there are so many. One of the most common, of course, is. Daniel Lieberman. He's been to every corner of the world, visiting native tribes to understand how humans are supposed to live. And now he has the answers on all of those things that most of us care about on sleep, nutrition, exercise, disease. You know, on disease he says that 74% of them can be prevented. And he knows how to prevent them. Aging. Running. Are we born to run? He tells me the story of a CEO that forces his employees to exercise and the impact that that's had on that company. And he talks about how, as humans, we've evolved to either use it or lose it.
那么，一个如何从持有消极对运动的看法到成为一个运动者呢？作为一名进化生物学家，有多种方法可以做到这一点。那么 Daniel，运动当中有哪些最大的误区呢？天啊，有太多了。其中最常见的一个当然是... Daniel Lieberman。他曾走遍世界的每一个角落，拜访原始部落，以了解人类应该如何生活。现在他对我们大多数关心的睡眠、营养、运动、疾病等方面都有答案。在疾病方面，据他说有74%的疾病是可以预防的。而他知道如何预防它们。衰老。奔跑。我们天生就适合跑步吗？他告诉我一个首席执行官强迫员工锻炼的故事，以及这对公司产生的影响。他还谈到，作为人类，我们进化出要么使用，要么丧失的机制。
So maybe, maybe retirement is a really bad idea for many of us. One of the most thought-provoking pivotal conversations I've had on this show, you're really going to take a lot from this one. And I suspect, after listening, you'll probably start running too. For exercise or from some of the decisions you've spent your life making. Daniel, your work is so incredibly impressive. Reach is such an incredible depth. Charter's new territory. And it's been an unbelievable, clearly very passion-driven career you had. So my first question for you is, why are you doing this? It's a good question. I started off being obsessed by human evolution. Ever since I was a kid, I was really interested in human evolution. And I spent much of my early career working on skulls and heads and why they are the way they are. And then I kind of got involved in public health and issues of health and disease. Got through the back door. I sort of slowly shifted my research trajectory towards studying the evolution of running. And then the evolution of physical activity and its relationship to health and disease. And I've become part of a movement that's often known as evolutionary medicine, which is how to apply evolutionary theory and data to issues of health and disease. Evolutionary medicine.
也许，也许退休对我们许多人来说是一个非常糟糕的主意。这个节目上最能引起思考的关键对话之一，你将从中获得很多。我猜想，在听过之后，你可能也会开始跑步。无论是为了锻炼身体，还是为了逃离你一生中做出的某些决定。Daniel，你的工作非常令人印象深刻。它达到了令人难以置信的深度，探索了新的领域。你追求事业的热情显而易见，令人难以置信。所以，我第一个问题是，你为什么这样做？这是一个好问题。我从小就对人类进化很着迷。我的早期职业生涯大部分时间都在研究头骨和头部为什么会如此。然后，我开始涉足公共卫生和健康疾病问题。通过后门进入了这个领域。我逐渐转变了研究方向，开始研究跑步的进化，以及体育活动与健康和疾病的关系。我成为了一个被称为进化医学的运动的一部分，这就是如何将进化理论和数据应用于健康和疾病问题上。进化医学。
I've never heard that term before, but I love it. Where has your work on evolutionary medicine, let's call it, where has that taken you? Where has it taken you to learn to research to study? You know, so much of what we think about in terms of health and disease comes from a tiny fragment of the world's population. Almost entirely, like 90 percent of all the medical information comes from people from the United States, Canada, Europe, and Australia. So in order to study how bodies really work and how our bodies evolve to be, you have to leave places like Boston where I live and go to places like Africa or Mexico or wherever to look at other populations and look at how those populations are transitioning to lifestyles like mine. And so we've been working in Kenya for the last 15 years or so, traveled to some other parts of the world as well. India, you know, to kind of collect some data, but mostly in Africa.
我以前从未听说过这个术语，但我喜欢它。你在进化医学方面的工作带你去了哪里？它带你去哪里学习和研究？你知道，我们在健康和疾病方面所思考的大部分内容来自全球人口的一小部分。几乎全部，90%的医学信息来自美国、加拿大、欧洲和澳大利亚。所以为了研究身体真正的运作方式以及我们身体的进化，你必须离开像我生活的波士顿这样的地方，去像非洲、墨西哥或其他地方观察其他人群，并观察这些人群如何过渡到像我这样的生活方式。所以过去15年左右，我们一直在肯尼亚工作，也去了世界其他地方。印度，你知道，也收集了一些数据，但主要还是在非洲。
After doing all of this work and after taking in all of this information, how has it shifted your perspective on running exercise more broadly? Have there been any sort of significant cognitive perception changes?
在完成所有这项工作并吸收了所有这些信息之后，这些如何改变了你对于跑步锻炼的整体看法？有没有发生任何重大的认知感知变化？
Yeah, I actually had a, I mean, it doesn't happen very often, but I had kind of an epiphany moment when I was working in Mexico. We were collecting data on the Tada Humara, very also famous for their long distance running. And there was this elderly guy, he's about 70 something years old, and he's famous for his distance running. And I was asking him how he trained. And I had asked this question of a whole bunch of other people. And the translator I was working with was always struggling to ask that question, because it turns out there's no word for training in that language. The concept of training doesn't exist. So she was trying to explain to this guy what my question was. And I could, even a translator, I could figure out just from his tone of voice, he was like, why would anybody run if you didn't have to? And I suddenly realized, yeah, of course, exercise is a very weird thing, right? Well, if you're a farmer and you're working super hard every day in the fields without machines and whatever, or if you're a hunter-gatherer and you're walking, you know, five to 10 miles a day and digging and throwing, you know, doing all kinds of hard work and you're barely getting enough food, why on earth would you go for a needless five mile run in the morning? I mean, it's crazy, right?
是的，实际上我曾经有过一个顿悟的时刻，虽然这种情况并不经常发生，但当我在墨西哥工作时，我经历了这样一个时刻。我们当时正在收集关于塔拉姆拉人的数据，他们以长跑闻名。有一个老人，大约70多岁，他以长跑而闻名。我问他如何训练。我之前问了很多人同样的问题，而那个翻译一直很难把这个问题翻译出来，因为那种语言中没有"训练"这个词。她试图向那个老人解释我的问题，而我可以从他的语调中感觉到他在问，如果不必要，为什么有人要跑步呢？我突然意识到，对啊，锻炼确实是一件很奇怪的事情，对吧？如果你是个农民，每天在田地里辛苦劳作，没有机器，或者如果你是个采集猎人，每天要走五到十英里的路，还会挖掘，投掷，做各种辛苦的工作，吃的食物也勉强够吃，那你为什么要早上无谓地去跑五英里呢？这很疯狂，对吧？
The most viewed videos of yours, and the most viewed moments in those videos, address one question. Do you have any idea what it might be?
你观看次数最多的视频和其中最引人注目的时刻探讨了一个问题。你有任何想法它可能是什么吗？
No, actually. The biggest myths in exercise.
不，实际上，这是关于运动的最大谬论。
Right. I think you actually pointed out one there with the insight you got in Mexico. The way we exercise going to gyms, practicing is the natural or human, but evidently it's it's a consequence of the privilege of our lives and the comfort we have of not having to seek out our dinner every day. What are some of the other biggest myths within exercise that you've come across in writing this book?
没错，我觉得你在墨西哥得到的洞察力实际上指出了一个问题。我们去健身房锻炼的方式，在本质上是自然的或人类的方式，但显然这是我们生活特权和不必每天寻找晚餐的舒适所导致的结果。在写这本书的过程中，你还碰到了哪些关于锻炼的其他最大的谬误呢？
Gosh, there are so many. I had to actually limit it to 10. So I think if you want to understand physical activity and exercise, you also have to understand inactivity. And I think one of the biggest myths out there is that you need eight hours of sleep a night, and that's sitting is the new smoking, you know, that basically, and if you think about those two different myths, why is it that we're constantly told to sleep more and to sit less? Actually, it seems a little contradictory to me, right? And it turns out that let's take sitting first.
天哪，真是太多了。我确实不得不将其限制在10个上。所以我认为如果你想了解体力活动和锻炼，你也必须了解久坐。而且我认为目前存在一个最大的误解，那就是你需要每晚八小时的睡眠，而久坐就像吸烟一样有害健康，你知道的，基本上，如果你考虑这两个不同的迷思，为什么我们总是被告诫要多睡觉少坐下呢？实际上，对我来说，这似乎有点矛盾。事实证明，我们首先来谈谈久坐。
So, you know, there are all these, you know, these slogans like sitting it's a new smoking and it's really bad for you. And you know, every time you sit in your chair, you lose two hours of your life and whatever, turns out that all animals sit, right? My dog sits, cows sit, chickens sit, every animal sits, and hunter gatherers also sit. In fact, if you, some of my students actually put sensors on hunter gatherers, and we're doing some research in farmers as well, but they sit just as much as westerners. So, sitting is, there's nothing special about being, about today's life. It's sitting, it's that we sit all day long and don't do anything when we're not sitting, right? So, if you, and furthermore, the big distance difference is not so much how much we sit, but how we sit.
所以，你知道的，有很多口号，比如说坐着就像吸烟一样糟糕对身体有害。每当你坐在椅子上，就会损失两个小时的寿命，等等。事实上，所有动物都会坐，对吧？我的狗会坐，牛会坐，鸡会坐，所有动物都会坐，采集者也会坐。实际上，一些学生在采集者身上安装了传感器，我们也在农民身上进行了一些研究，但他们坐的时间和西方人一样长。所以，坐着并没有什么特别之处，特别的是我们整日坐着而且不做其他事情。此外，与其说我们坐的时间有很大差距，倒不如说我们坐的方式有很大差距。
So, it turns out that people who, if you get up every once in a while, right, for interrupted sitting is actually much more healthy than non-interrupted sitting for the same amount of time. So, in other words, two people might, in the west, people sit for an average of about 40 minutes at about, whereas hunter gatherers, for example, are farmers in Africa where we were get up every about 10, 15 minutes. And when you do that, you actually, it's like turning on the engine of your car, you know, drive it around the block. You're, you're, you're, you're turning on all kinds of cellular mechanisms, you lower blood sugar levels, you, all kinds of genes get activated, and it turns out that that is by far the most important way to sit. So, just get up every once in a while, just pee frequently, make a cup of tea, you know, pet your dog, whatever. Thinking when I'm on planes and I've got a long flight.
所以事实证明，如果你偶尔站起来的话，打断式坐着对健康比连续坐着同样长的时间更有益。换句话说，在西方，人们平均坐着大约40分钟，而比如非洲的狩猎采集者或农民每隔大约10到15分钟就会站起来。当你这样做时，就像是启动了你的汽车引擎，绕着街区开一圈儿。你会打开各种细胞机制，降低血糖水平，激活各种基因，事实证明这是远远最重要的坐姿方式。所以，只需偶尔站起来，常常上厕所，喝杯茶，抚摸你的狗，或者其他活动。我这么想当我坐飞机时，要飞很长时间的时候。
Yeah, I always sit in the aisle, right, so I can get up a lot, always. And what about sleep, then? So, sleep is another interesting one. So, there's an idea that, you know, that you need eight hours of sleep, has been around for a long time. It's been around basically since the Industrial Revolution. But if you actually, so, so, colleagues in my field, so an evolutionary medicine, they put sensors on people who don't have, have all the things that were told have destroyed sleep. So, think about it, we're told that TV and lights and, and, you know, our phones and all these things are, are preventing us from sleeping, you know, Edison destroyed sleep, right?
是的，我总是坐在靠走道的座位上，这样我可以频繁地起身，一直都是这样。那么，睡眠呢？睡眠也是另一个有趣的话题。长久以来，人们认为需要八小时的睡眠时间。这个观念基本上自工业革命以来就一直存在。但实际上，我的同行，也就是进化医学领域的同行，在没有受到我们所称的“破坏睡眠的因素”，即电视、灯光和手机等等的干扰的人身上放置了传感器。可以这样想，我们被告知电视、灯光、手机等等都阻碍我们入睡，爱迪生毁了我们的睡眠，对吧？
So, so when you put sensors on people who don't have any electricity and they don't have TVs and they have, don't have phones and they don't have, have, have any of these gadgetry, right? Electrous, you know, they, it turns out they sleep like six to seven hours a night. And they, and they don't nap. So, this idea that natural human beings sleep eight hours a night is just, is just nonsense, it's just not true. And furthermore, when you start looking at the data, seven hours, if you actually look at, if you graph sort of how many hours a night you sleep on the x-axis and sort of, you know, some outcome like cardiovascular disease or just how likely you are to die, it's kind of a U-shaped curve. So, people don't get much sleep or in trouble. But the bottom of that curve is pretty much always about seven hours. So, people actually do better if they sleep seven hours rather than eight hours and we're told that if you don't sleep eight hours, there's something wrong, right?
所以，当你将传感器安装在没有电力、电视、手机等设备的人身上时，你会发现他们每晚睡眠大约六至七个小时，而且他们没有午睡。所以，自然人每晚需要睡八个小时的观念只是无稽之谈，不真实。此外，当你开始查看数据时，发现每晚睡七个小时与某种结果的关系（如心血管疾病或死亡率），可以看作是一个呈U型曲线。也就是说，睡眠时间过少的人会出现问题，但曲线的底点几乎总是在七个小时左右。因此，相比睡八个小时，实际上睡七个小时会更好，而我们被告知如果不睡八个小时就有问题，这是错误的，对吧？
Oh, so you can oversleep. Well, yeah, I mean, there's also some complexity to this too, because of course, people who are ill might be sleeping more. And so, there's some, there's some biases that creep into the how you analyze the data. But basically, it turns out that seven is from most people optimal, but there's a lot of variation, right? You know, teenagers sleep more, older people sleep less, it's complicated.
哦，所以你可以睡过头。嗯，是啊，我的意思是，这也有一些复杂性，因为当然，生病的人可能睡得更多。所以，在分析数据时会有一些偏见。但基本上，结果显示对大多数人来说，七小时的睡眠是最佳的，但实际上存在很大的差异，不是吗？你知道，青少年需要更多的睡眠，而老年人则需要较少的睡眠，这很复杂。
One of the things popular in culture as well is this idea of doing 10,000 steps a day. Yeah, now that's fun. You know, that started because of a Japanese pedometer. So, but right before the Olympics were in Tokyo in the 60s, they had invented the pedometer and they were in the sitting in a boardroom and they were discussing what to call the pedometer. And they picked out of just out of the blue, they picked 10,000 steps because that's apparently an auspicious number. And it sounded about right. There was no science behind it. Interestingly, it turns out it's pretty good. If you look at steps per day and health outcomes, your average hunter-gatherer walks between 10 to 18,000 steps, depends on male, female, et cetera. And if you look at steps per day and outcomes, about around 7 to 8,000 steps, the curve kind of bottoms out, right? There doesn't seem to be a huge advantage to taking more than that per day in terms of, you know, large epidemiological studies. So, it turns out to be not that bad a goal, but it's not a, there's no, it's not a perfect number, like a lot of things, right? It's just a kind of a, it's a reasonable goal to shoot for.
在文化中流行的一件事就是每天步行一万步的理念。是的，现在这很受欢迎。你知道，这个理念起源于一种日本计步器。在60年代东京奥运会之前，他们发明了计步器，并在会议室里讨论给计步器取什么名字。突然间，他们随意选择了“一万步”，因为这是一个吉祥的数字，听起来还合适。并没有科学研究支持这个理念。有趣的是，后来证明这个理念还是相当好的。如果你看每天的步数和健康结果，普通的狩猎采集者每天行走的步数在10至18,000步不等，具体取决于性别等因素。而如果以每天步数和结果为依据，大约在7至8,000步左右，曲线开始趋于平缓。也就是说，每天走多于这个数量似乎并没有明显的好处，这是根据大型流行病学研究得出的结论。所以，事实证明这并不是一个糟糕的目标，但也不是一个完美的数字，就像很多事情一样，它只是一个合理的目标去争取。
When you, when you started writing this, this book about exercise and running and all these subject matters, was there any instant changes or any real lasting changes that you implemented into your own life from everything you'd learned? I think about that all the time with this podcast. I'll have a guest on. I'll have these mini eureka moments and then something will stick. So I'm wondering, having studied all of these people all around the world and looked at their bodies and exercise and physical exertion, what have you taken into your own life that has stuck? I would say that I've become more serious about doing some strength training. You know, I've always loved walking and running and, you know, endurance kinds of activities, and I've always sort of hated doing weights. You know, I just don't like it. And I'm a wimp, you know, I'm not a very well, I'm not a very strong person. And, you know, people tend to do what they like, right? You get reinforcement from it. And the more I study the importance of resistance training and the more I study the importance of doing weights, especially as you age, the more I've started kicking myself for being lazy about that. So now I try to do good to strength workouts out of every week, at least, and take it more seriously.
当你开始写这本关于运动、跑步和其他相关主题的书时，你是否在自己的生活中有任何即时的变化或真正持久的改变，来自你所学到的一切？我经常在播客中思考这个问题。我会邀请一位嘉宾，然后会有一些小小的顿悟时刻，然后有些东西会留下来。所以我想知道，在研究了世界各地的人们以及他们的身体和锻炼运动之后，你自己有哪些东西留下来了？我想说我更加认真地进行了一些力量训练。你知道，我一直喜欢散步和跑步，喜欢耐力类活动，但一直不喜欢举重。你知道，我就是不喜欢。而且我很懦弱，我不是一个很强壮的人。而且，人们倾向于做自己喜欢的事情，不是吗？你会从中得到强化。我越是研究到抵抗训练的重要性，尤其是随着年龄的增长，我就越是为自己之前懒散的行为感到后悔。所以现在，我每周至少会做两次好的力量训练，并更加认真对待。
Because especially as you age, loss of muscle mass can be really debilitating. There's a technical term for that is sarcopenia. Sarco is the Greek word for muscle, and pina is loss of muscle loss. So as people get older, they tend to lose muscle. And when you do that, you become frail and you lose functional capacity. And then that starts off a vicious cycle, right? Once that happens, then you're less likely to be physically active. And then, of course, when you're less physically active, your muscles begin to waste away more. And it's very debilitating. So I think as we get older and I'm getting older, it's more and more important, you know, to kind of incorporate that. So I think that's the one thing that I've taken to heart.
特别是随着年龄增长，肌肉的丧失可能会给人带来重大的伤害。这个现象在技术上被称为肌肉萎缩。Sarco是希腊语中的肌肉，而pina则表示肌肉的丧失。随着人们变老，他们往往会失去肌肉。当你失去肌肉时，你会变得脆弱，并丧失功能能力。然后这就开始了一个恶性循环，对吧？一旦发生这种情况，你就不太可能进行身体活动。当然，当你活动较少时，你的肌肉会更快地消耗掉。这是非常让人痛苦的。所以我认为随着年龄的增长，我也在变老，这更加重要，你知道，要将这个问题纳入考虑。所以我认为这是我从心底里接受的一件事。
From what you said there, it sounds like not doing resistance training, not lifting weights as you age almost accelerates aging in any sort of superficial sense. But also in a physiological sense, you're increasing the speed of aging.
根据你的陈述，听起来年龄增长时不进行抗阻力训练、不举重几乎会加速外在层面的衰老。而且从生理角度看，这样做实际上是在加快衰老速度。
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'd think about it that way. But I think I'd kind of reverse it slightly, which is that, you know, aging is just the clock ticking out, right? Nothing we can do about age. But senescence is the way our bodies degrade as we get older. And what physical activity does, affection, maybe the most important thing about physical activity, is that it slows senescence, especially for certain organs and systems. And there are different kinds of physical activities. So there's endurance physical activities, you know, like running, walking, etc. Swimming, and then strength or resistance physical activities. And they have different kinds of ways in which they slow various properties of senescence, which we, you know, colloquially call aging. And all of them are important.
嗯，我不确定我会这样考虑。但我会稍微颠倒一下，也就是说，你知道，老化只是时间流逝，对吧？年龄不可避免。但衰老是我们身体随着年龄增长而逐渐退化的方式。而身体活动，特别是情感的体育活动，最重要的一点是它可以减缓衰老，尤其是对某些器官和系统。而且还有不同类型的体育活动。比如耐力性的体育活动，比如跑步、散步等。游泳，还有力量或抗阻性的体育活动。它们在减缓衰老的不同方面都有不同的方式，我们通俗地称之为老化。它们都很重要。
And I think one of the things that's really interesting about humans, in fact, I think it may be the most important thing about this book, and you asked about myths earlier. The most important myth, I think, by far, is this idea that as you get older, it's normal to be less active. And that is just not true. We evolved to be grandparents. We evolved to live. One of the things that's most interesting about humans, maybe, is that we evolved to live about 20 years or so after we stopped reproducing. No other animal does that except orcos, maybe killer whales. But with the exception of killer whales, humans have this really weird life history. We evolved to be grandparents.
我认为人类身上有一件非常有趣的事情，事实上，我认为这可能是这本书中最重要的事情，你之前问到过神话的问题。我认为，迄今为止最重要的神话，是人们普遍认为随着年龄增长，变得不太活跃是正常的。然而这完全不是真的。我们进化成了祖父母，我们进化成了活着。也许最有趣的事情之一是，我们进化出了在停止繁殖后大约再活20年的能力。其他动物都没有这样做，除了虎鲸，也许是虎鲸。但除了虎鲸之外，人类有着非常奇怪的生命周期。我们进化成了祖父母。
But grandparents in the old days weren't, you know, retiring to Florida or I don't know where they do in England or whatever, go to Mallorca or whatever, and, you know, kick up their heels and play golf or whatever with carts. Grandparents in the olden days, right, or in many cultures still today, are working, right? They're working in the fields, they're hunting, they're gathering, they're getting food for their children and their grandchildren, they're helping with childcare. And that physical activity is, you know, that's what their job is to be physically active. But in turn, that physical activity turns on an amazing suite of physiological processes that counter-aging. It turns on repair and maintenance processes that not only keep our muscles strong, but also keep our DNA from accruing mutations, keep our mitochondria numbers high, keep our cells in our brain from accumulating gunk so that it prevents Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia.
在过去，祖父母并不是退休去佛罗里达或其他地方，也不是像英国人一样去马约卡岛之类的地方，然后摆弄着高尔夫球车。在很多文化中，过去的祖父母或者现今的一些文化中，他们仍然在工作。他们在田间劳作，打猎，采集，为自己的子女和孙辈获取食物，协助育儿。这种体力活动，就是他们的工作，但同时也启动了一系列令人惊奇的生理过程来延缓衰老。它激活了修复与维护过程，不仅保持我们的肌肉健壮，还防止DNA突变，保持线粒体数量高，防止脑部细胞堆积垃圾，从而减少阿尔茨海默病和其他类型的痴呆症。
I mean, for every system of the body, physical activity has benefits that slow the aging process. And so when you stop doing it, you accelerate, and that's the way in which you perceive it as accelerating aging. But really, it's the absence of physical activity which lets aging run amok.
我的意思是，对于身体的每一个系统来说，运动都有助于减缓衰老过程。当你停止运动时，你会加速衰老，这就是你感觉衰老加速的原因。但实际上，是没有体育活动让衰老失控。
In your first book in 2013, the story of the human body, in chapter 12, you said, use this phrase, use it or lose it, basically. We evolved to use or lose our bodies. And I was sat with someone recently, and I was trying to figure out why it appears that when people retire, or the other instance I've seen is when their elderly partner passes away, it appears as if they don't live much longer.
在你2013年的第一本书《人类身体的故事》中，在第12章中，你说过这样一句话：“用了它就保持，不用就失去”。我们进化的过程本质上就是用或者失去我们的身体功能。最近我和一个人在一起时思考，我试图弄清楚为什么当人们退休，或者他们年迈的伴侣去世时，他们似乎再也活不久了的原因。
Yeah. It's kind of like kind of folklore or something that once you retire, your days are kind of numbered.
是的，这有点像民间传说一样，退休后你过的日子似乎不多了。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah. I was trying to figure out the evolutionary reason for that, but it sounds like that's kind of what you explained there.
是的，我想要弄清楚其中的进化原因，但听起来你已经在那方面作出了解释。
Well, I mean, I think part of that is depression, right? When you lose a partner, I mean grief and depression, your cortisol levels go up, your immune system goes down. I mean, it's really tough on your body. I mean, psychosocial stress plays a serious physiological toll. But also, as you just pointed out, when people retire, they'll become less active. And that loss of activity has enormous effects on every aspect of our body.
嗯，我的意思是，我认为其中一部分是由于抑郁症对吧？当你失去伴侣时，我是说悲伤和抑郁会导致你的皮质醇水平上升，免疫系统下降。我是说，这对你的身体真的很艰难。我是说，心理社会压力对身体产生严重的生理负担。但正如你所指出的，当人们退休时，他们的活动减少了。这种活动的减少对我们身体的各个方面都有巨大的影响。
I mean, and our minds, I mean, physical activity is important not just for physical health, but also vital for mental health. And I think a lot of the problems that mental health issues we have today, depression, anxiety, some of them, to some extent, we can attribute that to loss to less physical activity. And as people age, we'll be coming less physically active, again, makes them much more vulnerable to wide, sweet diseases.
我的意思是，我指的是我们的心智，我的意思是，体育活动不仅对身体健康很重要，而且对心理健康也至关重要。我认为今天我们面临的很多心理健康问题，比如抑郁、焦虑，某种程度上可以归咎于缺乏体育活动。随着人们年龄的增长，他们会变得越来越少进行体育活动，这使他们更容易受到各种严重疾病的侵袭。
So would you say we shouldn't retire? Or if you do retire, I mean, retiring is again, another modern, weird thing, right? Nobody retired in the past. I mean, if you're a farmer, it's like a subsistence farmer and name it any place, right? It's not like suddenly you hit 65 and all of a sudden, you no longer have to work in the fields. You work in the fields until you're dead, right? And hunter-gatherers don't retire. They continue to be physically active until they die, right? Or until they get too sick. So it's a very modern Western concept. And yes, we do pay a price for it. But you, of course, can replace, you know, work that you do with challenging rewarding, fun things to do. The important thing is just not to stop being physically active.
那么你是说我们不应该退休吗？或者如果你退休的话，我的意思是，退休也是现代的又奇怪的事情，对吧？过去没有人退休。比如说，如果你是一名农民，你就像是个自给自足的农民，不管在哪儿都一样，对吧？不会突然到了65岁就不再需要在田里工作了。你会一直在田里工作直到死去，对吧？而且狩猎采集者也不会退休。他们会一直保持体力活动直到死去，对吧？或者直到生病得太厉害。所以这是一个非常现代化、西方化的概念。当然，我们因此付出了代价。但是，当然你可以用有挑战性、有回报、有趣的事情替代你所做的工作。重要的是不要停止身体活动。
One of my favorite studies ever published without a doubt is a study done by a guy named Ralph Paffenbarger. He realized that places like Harvard are fantastic for studying aging because Harvard, like other private universities, never lets go of their alumni. So until the day you die, they're asking you for money on a regular basis. And so he got the Alumni Association, the Harvard Development Office, to let him follow a series of Harvard alumni from several years and can keep asking them in questions about their physical activity levels and also their diet and whether they smoked and stuff like that, and then detract them for 25, 30 years.
我毫不犹豫地说，我最喜欢的研究之一是由一位名叫拉尔夫·帕芬巴格的人进行的。他意识到哈佛等地方非常适合研究衰老问题，因为哈佛大学和其他私立大学一样，从不放弃他们的校友。所以直到你去世那一天，他们都会定期向你要钱。因此，他说服了哈佛校友会和哈佛发展办公室，让他追踪一系列多年前的哈佛校友，并不断询问他们有关身体活动水平、饮食习惯、是否吸烟等问题，并将这些数据追溯25到30年。
And what he found was that the alumni, we have to correct it for every factor you could think of, that as the alumni got older, the effect of physical activity on their health outcomes was bigger and bigger. So alumni who were in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, for example, who were exercising you four or five times a week, they had about 20% lower death rates. By the time they got to their 60s and 70s, the alumni who were exercising more had 50% lower death rates. So as you get older, and this has been replicated again many times, but what he showed was that as you get older, exercise becomes more not less important for maintaining your health.
他所发现的是，校友们必须针对各种因素进行修正，而随着校友年龄的增长，体育活动对他们健康结果的影响越来越大。例如，那些在20、30和40岁时进行每周四到五次锻炼的校友，他们的死亡率约低20%。当他们到了60和70岁时，进行更多锻炼的校友死亡率降低了50%。所以随着年龄的增长（这已经被多次验证），锻炼对于保持健康变得越来越重要，而不是越来越不重要。
I've been thinking a lot about this because I was saying to Jack, my dad is 60ish, he's very, very out of shape, very, very out of shape. And I was in Indonesia, and I was with my girlfriend and we went and we were going water rafting, so we had to go down this really big hill with all these stairs, it was like 300 metres of stairs. And I remember just thinking, my dad wouldn't be able to do this at his age at 60, and I want to be able to go down those stairs when I'm his age, because at the bottom there was a fun activity with someone I loved. And to think that I'll get to a point in my life where not so far away in the grand scheme of things, where I won't be able to go up or down some stairs because I'm 60, because of my sort of genetic predisposition, as I saw it, was quite sad. But having heard you say that, it really feels much more like a choice than it is genetics.
我一直在考虑这个问题，因为我跟杰克说过，我爸爸大约60岁了，他非常非常不健康。我当时在印度尼西亚，和女朋友一起去玩水上漂流，我们必须下一个很陡的山坡，还有很多楼梯，大概有300米的长。我记得当时就在想，我爸爸在他60岁的年纪可能做不到这点，而我希望在我60岁的时候能够像他一样下楼梯，因为在底下有个我爱的人一起玩的有趣活动。想到我会在人生中的某一点，也不是很久远的将来，因为我的基因构造，我可能无法上下楼梯，真的很悲伤。但听你说了之后，我真的感觉这更像是一个选择，而不仅仅是基因的问题。
Yeah, look, we have this expression in my field, which is that genes load the gun, and environment pulls the trigger, right? Some of us have genetic predispositions towards being more likely to get diabetes, or heart disease, or this or that or the other, but our great, great, great grandparents in different environments weren't getting these diseases, or they were getting them at much, much, much lower frequencies. It's not because they were dying earlier, it's because these diseases were less common. So I think we too often blame our genes for many of these diseases, or many of these health problems, and I'm not in any way denying the role of genetics, but that environment is way more important, and we have control over our environment to some extent.
是的，听着，我们在我的领域有这样一个说法，即基因负责装弹，环境扣动扳机，对吧？我们中的一些人在遗传上更容易患上糖尿病、心脏病或其他类似疾病，但我们的曾祖父母生活在不同的环境中，他们并不患这些疾病，或者患病的频率要低得多。这不是因为他们死得更早，而是因为这些疾病更为罕见。因此，我认为我们经常把这些疾病或健康问题归咎于基因，这是不正确的。我并不否认基因的作用，但环境要重要得多，我们对环境有一定的控制权。
And so if you want to reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease, reduce your risk of diabetes, reduce your risk of Alzheimer's dementia, exercise isn't a magic bullet, it's not going to prevent you from getting those diseases completely, but it lowers your risk quite substantially. And we know why too. I mean, we have an immense amount of data on why that's the case. For every single one of these diseases, we understand the mechanisms by which physical activity has important mechanistic effects on these diseases. So there's epidemiological data, there's mechanistic data, there's personal data.
因此，如果你想减少心血管疾病、糖尿病和阿尔茨海默病的风险，运动并不是一个神奇的解决办法，它无法完全预防这些疾病，但可以大大降低风险。我们也知道这个原因。我的意思是，我们有大量关于运动对这些疾病产生重要机制影响的数据。对于每一种疾病，我们都了解身体活动对其产生的机制。因此，有流行病学数据、机制数据和个人数据。
The problem is that it's hard to do, it takes willpower to overcome the inertia of doing what's completely normal, which is wanting to take it easy. I just flew yesterday from Denver to Boston. And the airport, there are these escalators right next to the stairway. And the escalator and the stairway, it wasn't a huge stairway. Everybody's lining up to take the escalator, and the stairs are totally free. So being me, of course, I'm not allowed to take the escalator unless I have to. So I ran up the stairs, but those people taking the escalator, there's nothing wrong with them. They're not lazy, it's just an instinct, it's an instinct to take it easy when you can. And we now live in a world where everybody can do that, because we have escalators and lifts, and cars, and shopping carts, and all these wonderful devices to make our lives easier. And now you have to overcome this fundamental basic instinct to take it easy in order to be physically active. And that's basically what exercise is. And furthermore, if you're unfit and you're not really, exercising isn't any fun, it's unpleasant. You sweat and you get hot and you get cranky and it's not that rewarding until you get fit. And so people hate it, right? And then we blame them for being lazy, but they're actually just being normal. And I think we need to have more compassion towards people who struggle to exercise. Quick one, before we get back to this episode, just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit that subscribe button. It means more than I can say. And if you hit that subscribe button, here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to. And we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode.
问题在于这很困难，需要意志力来克服想要轻松自在的惯性，这是完全正常的一种愿望。就在昨天，我从丹佛飞往波士顿。在机场，旁边有扶梯和楼梯。不是特别高的楼梯。每个人都排队坐扶梯，而楼梯完全是免费的。作为我自己，当然，除非不得不坐扶梯，我是不会乘坐扶梯的。所以我跑上了楼梯，但那些坐扶梯的人没有错。他们并不懒惰，这只是一种本能，当有机会轻松自在时，我们有这种本能。现在我们生活在一个每个人都能享受这种便利性的世界，因为我们有扶梯、电梯、汽车、购物车和所有这些让我们生活更轻松的神奇装置。现在，你必须克服这种原始的本能，才能进行身体活动。基本上，这就是锻炼。此外，如果你身体不健康，锻炼是一件无聊的事，不愉快的事。你会出汗，变得热烘烘的，心情不好，只有在变得健康之后才会感到回报。所以人们讨厌锻炼，对吧？然后我们责怪他们懒惰，其实他们只是正常人。我认为我们应该对那些努力锻炼的人更有同情心。在我们继续本期节目之前，只需要给我30秒时间。我有两件事想说。首先，非常感谢您每周收听和关注我们的节目，对我们来说这意义非凡。这真是一个梦想，我们从来没有想过并且也无法想象能够走到这一步。但是其次，我们感到这只是一个刚刚开始的梦想。如果您喜欢我们在这里的表现，请加入那24%定期观看本频道的人，并点击订阅按钮。这对我来说意义非凡。如果您点击了订阅按钮，我向您承诺，我将尽我所能让这个节目做得最好，并且会持续为您要求我采访的嘉宾服务。我们将继续做您喜欢这个节目的所有事情。非常感谢您。感谢您！回到节目。
This basic instinct to take it easy. Are we evolved to be lazy, take escalated riders? Well, I wouldn't use the word lazy, but we are evolved to take it easy, to rest whenever possible. Right. So we've now got ourselves into a bit of a comfort crisis here, because everything in our lives is optimizing us for convenience needs. Right. Right. And well, it's also it sells. Right. I mean, comfort. I mean, I mean, who prefers to sit in economy as opposed to business class? Right. Nobody. Right. Comfort is nice. Right. Who prefers shoes that are uncomfortable? Right. We, we, you know, comforts, comforts, you know, we love comfort. Right.
这种放松的基本本能。我们是否进化成懒惰、追求逐渐升级的享乐主义者？嗯，我不会用懒惰这个词，但我们的进化使我们变得懒散，尽可能休息。对。所以现在我们陷入了一种舒适危机，因为我们生活中的一切都在优化方便需求。对。对。而且，它还有市场。对。我是说，舒适。我的意思是，我是说，谁愿意坐经济舱而不是商务舱呢？对。没人。对。舒适很好。对。谁愿意穿不舒服的鞋子呢？对。我们，我们知道，舒适，舒适，你知道，我们喜欢舒适。对。
But since one is comfort necessarily better for you. Right. I mean, our comfortable shoes actually better for you than going barefoot or comfortable chairs better for you than we're taking the left better for you than taking the short term or at least it appears to be today. Right. Yes, because we often value the short term benefit over the long term cost. Right. That's hyperbolic discounting is the technical term for that.
但是，只是舒适对你来说并不一定更好。没错，我的意思是，我们的舒适鞋相对于赤脚来说确实更好，或者舒适椅子相对于坐在坚硬椅子上来说更好，或者首选左边相对于选择短期的更好，或者至少从今天来看是这样。没错。是的，因为我们通常更重视短期利益而忽视长期成本。没错，这被称为技术术语超越性减值。
But but so we, you know, we live in a world where we we pay extra for comfort or we and we'll prefer it. But but now we also live in a world where we have to now go out of our way to be physically active because it's no longer necessary. And so again, I'll go back to my original statement, which is that people evolved to be physically active for two reasons and two reasons only when it's necessary rewarding. When we don't make it necessary, we need to figure out ways to make it rewarding. And and that's hard. It's very hard. Making it rewarding.
但是我们现在生活在一个世界中，在这个世界中，我们为了舒适而额外支付费用，而且我们也更喜欢这样。但是现在我们也生活在一个世界中，在这个世界中，我们不得不为了保持身体活跃而做出额外努力，因为这已经不再是必需品了。所以我还是会回到我最初的观点，人类演化成为身体活跃的原因只有两个，那就是在必要时有回报。当我们不再把它视为必需品时，我们需要找到方法让它变得有回报。这是很困难的，非常困难。让它变有回报是很困难的。
So one way that you might make something rewarding is by looking at the stick and then the other side is maybe the carrot, but just looking at the stick then, you were going through a series of diseases a second to go Alzheimer's, high blood pressure, all of these kinds of things, cardiovascular diseases. I almost think we've come to assume that these are inevitabilities of life. Yeah, we'll get cancer. Yeah, one of us will get yeah, someone in here is going to get Alzheimer's. And that's the way we live. So we're we're preparing to medicate when that day comes. That's right. I get good forbid diagnosed with something. That's absolutely right. In fact, that's what medical students today are taught.
有一种方式可以让某事变得有回报，就是看看“棒子”，另一边可能是“胡萝卜”，但只看着“棒子”，你会经历一系列的疾病，比如老年痴呆、高血压以及其他心血管疾病等等。我几乎认为我们已经默认这些疾病是生活的必然性了。是的，我们会得癌症。是的，我们中会有人得老年痴呆症。这就是我们的生活方式。所以我们在准备好药物，等那一天来临时就可以治疗。是的，如果不幸被诊断出某种疾病，没错。事实上，这就是当今医科学生所学的。
Right. If you go to medical school today, you're taught that as people get older, their blood pressure goes up. I can tell you that's just not true. It's in the Western world where people are physically inactive and eat crap diets that their blood pressure tends to go up. But there are plenty of people. I'm actually one of them, right, who don't have high blood pressure as they age. And guess what's the best way to prevent getting high blood pressure as you age? It's, you know, it's not like a broken record.
没错。如果你今天去医学院，你会被告知随着人们年龄增长，他们的血压会升高。但我可以告诉你，这其实不正确。在西方世界，人们身体不活动，饮食不健康才会导致血压升高。但是有很多人，我就是其中之一，随着年龄增长并没有高血压。而且，你猜猜预防血压升高最好的方法是什么？你知道，就像一张破碟一样反复强调。
But we have this idea that as you get older, yes, you're going to you're and we're lucky, right? You know, because we don't die from smallpox when we're 30, we're lucky to get cancer when we're 60, right? What we've done is we've confused diseases that are more common with aging with age being a cause of those diseases in the first place. And they're not inevitable, inevitable diseases. And many of them are preventable.
但是我们有这样的想法，随着年龄的增长，是的，你会感到疲惫，并且我们很幸运，对吧？你知道的，因为我们不会在30岁时死于天花，当我们60岁时患上癌症，我们算是幸运的，对吧？我们所做的是将更常见的疾病与衰老混淆，将衰老视为这些疾病的原因。事实上，这些疾病并非不可避免，其中很多是可以预防的。
And the problem is that in our society, we don't value prevention very much. We may talk about it, but we don't really put our money where our mouth is, right? In the US, which is arguably one of the worst healthcare systems, it is the worst healthcare system among the industrialized Western world, we spend approximately 3% of our budget, our medical budget on prevention. And yet when people walk into a doctor's office, 75% of the time the disease is according to the Center for Disease Control, preventable disease. So we especially spend nothing to prevent diseases that overwhelm our system and cause enormous amounts of misery. It's a completely backward stupid system.
问题在于，在我们的社会中，我们并不非常重视预防。我们可能会谈论它，但实际上并没有付诸行动，对不对？在美国，可以说是最糟糕的医疗体系之一，在工业化西方世界中属于最糟糕的医疗体系，我们将大约3%的预算，即我们的医疗预算用于预防。然而，当人们走进医生的诊所时，根据疾病控制中心的数据，有75%的疾病是可以预防的。所以我们几乎没有任何经费用于预防能够压垮我们的体系并带来巨大痛苦的疾病。这是一种完全愚蠢且颠倒的体系。
And so, and the good news is it's not that hard to prevent a lot of these things. It takes well power and takes education and it takes access to good quality food and whatever. But so, in the one hand, it's very depressing. On the other hand, the optimist in me says, you know, we really can do something. And people, even if they're not wealthy or whatever, there are simple things that everybody can do to improve their health outcomes.
所以，好消息是，预防这些问题其实并不太难。这需要意愿，需要教育，需要获得高质量的食物等等。但是一方面，这非常令人沮丧。另一方面，我内心的乐观主义者认为，我们确实可以做些事情。即使人们并不富有，也有简单的方法可以改善他们的健康状况。
These diseases we encounter today as we age, and just generally in our society, when you look at hunter-gatherer communities, where you look at certain tribes around the world, maybe in Africa, do you see the same, the same types of diseases in the same occurrence, level of occurrence? Or is there some diseases which just don't like, I'm wondering if like, because you know, cancer seems to be so popular for as disease and Alzheimer's and these kinds of things. So I wonder, has that always been the case throughout human history? And is that the case in other parts of the world? That is such a good question.
今天我们在老年时期以及在我们的社会中遇到的这些疾病，在狩猎采集社区，或者在世界各地的某些部落中，你是否看到了相同类型的疾病以及发生的程度？或者是否存在一些疾病不像其他一样，我想知道，因为你知道，癌症似乎是一种流行病，还有阿尔茨海默病和其他类似的疾病。所以我想知道，在人类历史中是否一直都是这种情况？在世界其他地区是否也是如此？这是一个非常好的问题。
So first of all, some of these diseases are really hard to measure in non-Western populations because we don't have the diagnostic tools. So nobody really knows how common cancer is in a lot of parts of the world. The data don't exist.
首先，其中一些疾病在非西方人群中很难进行测量，因为我们没有相应的诊断工具。因此，很多地区对于癌症的普遍程度并不为人所知。相关的数据并不存在。
That said, when you make estimates and you do look at the studies that are out there, and even if you look in historical records and places like Europe, where people have been keeping track of this, there is no question that cancer rates have been rising and that cancer rates are much, much more common in the Western world.
话虽如此，当你进行估计并查看已有的研究，甚至查阅历史记录和像欧洲这样的地方，人们一直在追踪这个问题，毫无疑问癌症发病率一直在上升，而在西方世界，癌症发病率要远远高于其他地区。
There's a strong association between cancer and wealth. And that's because cancer is basically a disease of energy, right? Because cancer is basically natural selection gone awry in the body. It's when cells start competing with each other in ways that cause basically and start going, you know, multiplying and dividing out of control, it's a kind of natural selection.
癌症与财富之间存在着明显的关联。这是因为癌症基本上是一种能量疾病，对吗？癌症基本上是身体中的自然选择出了问题。当细胞开始以一种导致无法控制的方式相互竞争，开始不受控制地增殖和分裂时，这就是一种自然选择的情况。
And what is it that those cells are doing? They're competing for energy. And when you have more energy, like when you're eating more and being less physically active, you can, you basically feed those cells. So cancer, a high levels of insulin, insulin is highly related to cancer, high insulin levels, or carcinogenic, high levels of body, of energy, you cause women, for example, to increase the amount of estrogen and progesterone that they produce. Men produce more testosterone. These are, and these are hormones that, of course, are for good for reproduction. But there, but again, we evolved to be, times many babies as possible, right? But that doesn't mean that translates into health, right?
那么这些细胞在做什么呢？它们正在争夺能量。当你拥有更多能量，比如吃得更多、活动不太多时，你基本上就是在给这些细胞提供食物。所以癌症、高胰岛素水平，胰岛素与癌症密切相关，高胰岛素水平或致癌，高能量水平导致妇女例如增加雌激素和孕激素的产生。男性产生更多的睾酮。当然，这些都是有益于繁殖的激素。但是，我们进化的目标是尽可能多地生育后代，这并不意味着就等同于健康，对吧？
So more estrogen, more progesterone, increases risks of, say, breast cancer, or testosterone increases the risk of prostate cancer. So if you look at most diseases, right, people are more physically active. They have lower levels of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. They have lower levels of insulin. They have lower levels of blood sugar, all of these depressed cancer rates. And on average, people who are physically active have much lower rates of almost every single kind of cancer that you can think of. Women who walk 150, you know, get 150 minutes of physical activity a week have, on average, about 30 to 50 percent lower lifetime breast cancer risks than people who are sedentary.
所以更多的雌激素、孕激素会增加患乳腺癌的风险，而睾酮增加患前列腺癌的风险。所以如果看大多数疾病的话，身体活动更多的人，他们体内雌激素、孕激素、睾酮的水平都会较低。他们的胰岛素水平会较低，血糖水平也会较低，所有这些因素都降低了患癌症的风险。而且一般来说，身体活跃的人几乎每一种癌症发病率都会大大降低。每周进行150分钟身体活动的女性，平均寿命内患乳腺癌的风险要比久坐的人低30%至50%左右。
And yet for some reason, this is not a well-known fact. And we have epidemiological data, we have mechanistic data, we understand how and why it works. And yet, how often do you hear about cancer prevention? We talk about treating cancer, which is all important. If I get cancer, I would like it treated too. Thank you very much. But why don't we spend more energy and activity and have more education about how to prevent cancers in the first place?
然而出于某种原因，这并不是一个广为人知的事实。我们拥有流行病学数据，我们拥有机制数据，我们了解它是如何以及为什么起作用的。然而，你有多经常听到有关预防癌症的讨论？我们谈论治疗癌症，这是非常重要的。如果我得了癌症，我也希望得到治疗。非常感谢。但为什么我们不花更多的精力和行动，关注如何首先预防癌症，并提供更多相关教育呢？
Physical activity, I've never had that before. So that's really helped me to add more value to exercise in my mind. You're talking there about insulin levels and how that has, there's a link between your insulin levels and your chances of getting cancer. Sugar, glucose, inflammation, bad. Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, if you want to, if you want to take like the three things you should, you know, if you really care about your health, don't smoke, right? That's kind of obvious. I think everybody knows that. Get some exercise. I don't think you need me to tell you that, right? And cut down on sugar and foods that are high in sugar and low in fiber, right? That, you know, what we call high glycemic foods.
身体活动，我以前从未尝试过。所以这真的帮助我在心里增加对运动的价值。你在谈论胰岛素水平以及胰岛素水平与患癌症的机会之间存在的联系。糖、葡萄糖、炎症、有害。是的，我是说，是的，如果你想要，如果你真的关心自己的健康，不要吸烟，对吧？这是很明显的。我认为每个人都知道这一点。做一些运动。我不认为你需要我来告诉你这个，对吧？减少摄入高糖和低纤维食物，即我们所说的高血糖食物。
Those are the foods that elevate your blood glucose levels, your insulin levels shoot up and insulin. Insulin, the basic function of insulin is what we call an anabolic hormone. Its job is to store energy. Glucose. Glucose, but also fat. Okay. All right. So insulin, what insulin does is to get energy into cells. So it's like a taxi. It's like an Uber. It's like a taxi. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not a taxi. It's like a, it's telling other cells to do that. So insulin, for example, binds to other cells that are the actual taxis. So it's like, it's like calling the Uber, I would say maybe, right? And, and insulin is, is, you know, it's the fun.
这些食物可以提高你的血糖水平，使胰岛素水平升高。胰岛素是一种我们称之为合成激素的基本功能。它的工作是储存能量-葡萄糖和脂肪。通过将能量输送进入细胞，胰岛素的功能就像出租车或Uber一样，它会与其他细胞结合，在细胞之间传递能量。胰岛素就像叫Uber车一样，它告诉其他细胞要做这件事情。胰岛素可以绑定到其他实际的“出租车”细胞上。胰岛素是非常重要的。
So when you, when you eat food, insulin levels go up because this job is to store that energy. And when you exercise, insulin levels go down because, because you want to then use that energy, right? So, so, so when cells get more energy, they're more prone to going out of control, basically. And, and, and, and inflammation is caused by basically by getting, you store so much fat in your cells that those fat cells start to swell. And when those, so, so swell, like anything, right, they start to rupture, they get damaged. And that damage attracts the immune system. And the immune system gets turned on and that causes inflammation.
所以当你吃食物的时候，胰岛素水平就会上升，因为胰岛素的工作是储存能量。而当你运动时，胰岛素水平会下降，因为你要利用这些能量，对吧？因此，当细胞获得更多能量时，它们更容易失控。基本上，炎症是由于细胞中储存过多的脂肪使脂肪细胞膨胀所致。当这些脂肪细胞膨胀时，就像任何事物一样，它们开始破裂、受损。这种损伤会引来免疫系统，激活免疫系统就会导致炎症。
So, so too much adiposity, too much fat, you know, over swollen fat cells is the, is a primary cause of systemic inflammation.
所以，过多的脂肪，你知道，过多的脂肪细胞过于肿胀是全身性炎症的主要原因。
And inflammation is like the slow burn in our bodies that causes widespread damage to pretty much everything you can think of.
炎症就像我们体内的缓慢燃烧一样，对我们能够想象到的几乎所有事物造成广泛的损害。
And it turns out that so the two ways to deal with inflammation are one to prevent it, right?
结果发现，处理炎症的两种方法就是其中一种是预防它，对吗？
So don't eat foods that are pro-inflammatory. Like anything with a lot of sugar, basically, right?
所以不要食用能导致炎症的食物。比如说含有大量糖分的任何食物，对吗？
I mean, you know, the sugar is highly inflammatory or trans fats are highly inflammatory.
我的意思是，你知道，糖是高度炎症性的，或者有机转脂是高度炎症性的。
But also turns out many people don't know this, but you also want to turn down your immune system, right?
但很多人并不知道，你也想要抑制你的免疫系统，对吧？表达的意思是，降低免疫系统的功能。希望上述翻译易读且准确。
You want to turn the dial down.
你想要调低旋钮。
And I don't know, I'll just give you one guess what it is that does that exercise and the way it does that is that when you, when you're physically active, you're using your muscle cells.
我不知道，我只能给你一个猜测，那就是什么会引起这种锻炼的行为，而它的方式是当你身体活动时，你在使用你的肌肉细胞。
It turns out muscles are also an endocrine organ.
原来肌肉也是一种内分泌器官。
Your muscles are producing a molecule called interleukin-6, IL-6, that in low levels is pro-inflammatory, but at high levels, it's actually anti-inflammatory.
你的肌肉产生一种叫做白细胞介素6（Interleukin-6，简写为IL-6）的分子，低水平时具有促炎作用，但高水平时则具有抗炎作用。
It turns down inflammation.
它可以减轻炎症反应。
And your muscles, because a third of your body is muscle, right?
你的肌肉，因为你身体的三分之一是肌肉，对吗？
When you go for a run or swim or bike ride or whatever, you're producing a ton of this stuff and it turns down levels of inflammation.
当你去跑步、游泳、骑自行车或做其他运动时，你会产生大量的这种物质，并降低炎症水平。
So, people who are physically active, even if they're overweight, are actually controlling and regulating their inflammation.
因此，即使体重超重，保持身体活动的人实际上在控制和调节身体的炎症反应。
We never evolved to regulate inflammation because, in this way, because we never evolved to be physically inactive.
我们从来没有进化出调节炎症的能力，因为我们从未进化成身体不活跃的方式。
Until recently, nobody was physically inactive. Until they let them die, right?
直到最近，没有人是身体不活跃的。直到他们让他们死亡，对吧？
So, we never evolved an alternative mechanism to regulate our inflammation other than physical activity.
所以，我们除了身体活动之外，从未进化出其他调节炎症的机制。
And we didn't live in a world with this much sugar?
而且我们生活的世界里没有这么多糖吗？
简单易读的意思是，说我们生活的世界不像现在这样充斥着很多糖。
We never lived in a world.
我们从未生活在一个完美的世界中。
I mean, it's astonishing. You pay more money for foods today that have less sugar added.
我的意思是，这真是令人惊讶。现如今，你付更多的钱购买的食物却添加了更少的糖分。
I mean, that's just ridiculous, right?
我的意思是，那简直太荒谬了，对吧？
Because it's so cheap.
因为它非常便宜。
And sugar is.
糖也是如此。
这句话表达了对糖的分析和判断。
Everybody loves sugar.
每个人都喜欢糖。
I mean, I've gone hunting with hunter-gatherers, you know, foraging hunter-gatherers.
我的意思是，我曾与狩猎采集者一起去过狩猎，你知道的，那种进行觅食的狩猎采集者。
And I can tell you a bit there, honey addicts, right?
我可以告诉你一点，亲爱的甜品爱好者，对吗？
I've gone out with these guys and they go from. If they fail on their hunt, like by 10 or 11, if you haven't killed an animal, that's it for the day, right?
我和这些人一起外出，如果他们失败了，就会从那打猎结束的时间。如果到了10点或11点还没杀到动物，那一天就算结束了，对吧？
And then it turns from being a hunting expedition to a honey collecting expedition.
然后，这次旅行由一次狩猎远足转变为一次采集蜂蜜的远足。
And they'll go from hive to hive to hive, get smoke, burn out the bees, and just gorge themselves on more honey than I could possibly imagine to eat.
他们会从一个蜂巢到另一个蜂巢，接着使用烟熏驱赶蜜蜂，然后如此贪婪地享用比我自己能想象吃掉的蜂蜜。
Except these are lean, physically active hunter-gatherers and they handle it just fine.
除了这些瘦身且身体活跃的采集猎人，他们能很好地处理它。
But it's the Paleolithic equivalent of eating Mars bars all day long.
但这相当于整天吃巧克力棒的旧石器时代版本。
But they've been out doing physical activity for how long? Yeah, I mean, the average day is about 15 kilometers of walking with some running.
但是他们进行体力活动已经多久了？是的，我的意思是，平均一天大约会走15公里，还会有一些跑步。
Yeah, so they can cope with it. How many hours is there? Oh, that's two to three hours, probably.
是的，所以他们可以应对。有多少小时呢？噢，大概是两到三个小时吧。
Okay, so from that, I have gone at that. I need to do 15 kilometers a day for two or three hours every day.
好的，所以从那里得出的结论是，我需要每天花两到三个小时跑15公里。
Well, remember, it's not a prescription, right?
嗯，记住，这并不是处方，对吧？
So that's kind of like the paleofantasy sort of naturalistic fantasy that if you live like a hunter-gatherer, somehow your role will be perfect, right?
这就有点像某种幻想中的古代理想，即如果你像一个狩猎采集者那样生活，你的角色会变得完美，对吧？
That's basically what the paleo diet is sort of all about, right?
基本上，原始饮食就是这个意思，对吧？
And that's not true either.
那也不是真的。
Yes, you need to be physically active, but it turns out that a certain amount, you know, if you're any physical activity is better than none, right?
是的，你需要保持身体活动，但事实证明，任何一点点身体活动都比没有好，对吗？
And if you look at that kind of any curve of any output, any health health outcome, like how many years you live or whether you're at risk of cancer or heart disease or whatever, you know, any little physical activity, your curve starts to fall quickly, right?
如果你看任何一种产出、任何一种健康状况的曲线，比如你活多少年或者是否有患癌症或心脏病的风险，无论是什么，你会发现任何一点点的身体活动，你的曲线就会迅速下降。
Your likelihood of cardiovascular disease starts just, you know, a few minutes a day of exercise has big benefits, but eventually that curve flattens out, right?
您每天只需花费几分钟进行锻炼，就能大大降低患心血管疾病的风险。不过，随着时间的推移，这个曲线会趋于平缓，对吧？
And it flattens out well before the hunter-gather level.
在狩猎-采集者层级之前，它已经趋于平坦。
So you don't need to be a hunter-gather in terms of physical activity to get the benefits.
所以你并不需要像狩猎采集者一样进行体力活动，也能获得好处。
This is a I've asked a few people this question.
我问了几个人这个问题。
I don't think everyone's anyone's really answered it.
我不认为每个人都真的回答了这个问题。
But I suspect you might be able to. If you were responsible for redesigning the nature of our modern world to make it more matched, and less mismatched, what are some of the first things you would do to help society benefit in terms of our happiness and our health?
但我怀疑你有这个能力。如果你负责重新设计我们现代世界的本质，使之更加匹配，减少不匹配的地方，你会首先采取哪些措施来帮助社会在幸福和健康方面受益？
在我看来，如果我能够重新设计我们现代世界，我会尝试以下几个方面，以促进社会在幸福和健康方面的发展。
首先，我会致力于改善教育系统。我相信教育是人类进步和幸福的基石。为了提高社会的幸福和健康水平，我会推动教育的全面改革，注重培养学生的情商和社交能力，让他们更好地适应社会并面对挑战。
其次，我会着重改善医疗保健系统。人民的健康是社会的财富。我会投入更多资源，发展先进的医疗技术和药物，确保人们能够获得高质量的医疗保健服务。此外，我还会加强健康教育，提倡健康的生活方式，以预防疾病和促进整体健康。
第三，我会致力于改善工作和生活的平衡。现代社会常常忽视了人们工作与生活之间的平衡，并造成了许多问题，如工作过度、压力增加等。为了提高幸福和健康水平，我会推动实施更灵活的工作制度，鼓励休闲和娱乐活动，并推动改善城市规划，提供更多的公共空间和绿化环境，让人们可以更好地放松身心。
此外，建立一个公正和包容的社会也是关键。我将重视人们的权利和平等，减少社会不平等现象，为每个人提供公正的机会和资源分配。
总的来说，我会从教育、医疗保健、工作与生活平衡以及社会公正等方面入手，努力创造一个更加匹配、幸福和健康的社会。
I think about this all the time, because we don't seem to be turning around.
我一直在想这个问题，因为我们似乎没有好转的迹象。
We seem to be hurtling in a direction kind of unconsciously towards artificial intelligence and moving less and being more sedentary and taking pills more to fix everything, lonelier than ever before.
我们似乎在不知不觉中向人工智能的方向高速冲刺，越来越不活动，更加久坐，并且依赖服药来解决一切问题，比以往任何时候都更加孤独。
And I go, you know, if we were to redesign it, blank canvas, piece of paper.
我接着说，你知道，如果我们要重新设计它，就像一张空白画布、一张白纸。
That's a tough question, because we've essentially given ourselves what we want, right?
这是一个棘手的问题，因为基本上我们已经给予自己想要的了，对吧？
I can go into a supermarket and I mean, I can do something that's unimaginable until recently.
我可以走进一家超市，我指的是，我可以做一些直到最近还无法想象的事情。
I can have I can have basically anything I can eat better than the King of France, you know, a few generations ago. I can I can I mean, I can New York. There's like every cuisine possibly available to me. I don't ever have to climb the stairs. I can take elevators. I mean, we've we've we've made our world so convenient and comfortable. And yet there are consequences to many of the things that we crave and want.
我可以拥有基本上任何一样食物，比如说比法国国王几个世代前的饮食水平还好。我可以，我的意思是，我可以在纽约。这里几乎有各种可能类型的美食供我选择。我永远不必爬楼梯，我可以搭乘电梯。我的意思是，我们已经把我们的世界变得如此便利和舒适。然而，我们渴望和追求的很多事物都会有后果。
So in an ideal world, you don't want to you don't want to room. I mean, you have to you have to honor and respect people's desires, right? I'm not a I don't believe in in in preventing people from taking the elevator, right? Or or forcing them to, you know, eat whole grain bread as opposed to white bread, right? But if you banned white bread and you banned elevators other than for those people that need it for accessibility reasons, etc, they would do better. Over the long term, they'd be healthy and happier. They would. Right. So it's really a balancing act between respecting people's liberties and choices and educating them and helping them.
在理想的世界中，你不想给别人规定任何事情。我的意思是，你必须尊重和尊重他人的愿望，对吧？我并不认为应该阻止人们乘坐电梯，对吧？或者强迫他们食用全麦面包而不是白面包，对吧？但如果你禁止白面包，并且只允许那些出于无障碍原因需要使用电梯的人，长期来看，他们会变得更好。他们会更健康、更幸福。没错。所以，在尊重人们自由和选择的同时，我们需要权衡并教育他们，帮助他们。
So in my world, I would I would do more to nudge people. Right. I would instead of banning sugar, I would tax it more instead of pushing all kinds of foods on people. I would push why don't we why don't we advertise healthy foods the way we advertise unhealthy foods, right? I mean, when's the last time you saw an ad for just how amazingly healthy asparagus was, right? But that doesn't get the part of my brain going, does it? No, it doesn't. But but we could do more to to nudge and encourage and help people, right? You don't have to like ban sugar and cookies, right? The way some people, but but simply promote and help people help themselves, right? Most people want to eat healthier food. Most people want to exercise, but they live in a world where it's hard to do it. And they live in a world where there are very few incentives.
在我的世界里，我会更多地推动人们。对的。我不会禁止糖分，而是会更多地对其征税，而不是把各种食物推销给人们。我会推动为什么我们不能像推销不健康食物一样宣传健康食物呢，对吧？我是说，你什么时候最后一次看到一则完全针对多么健康的芦笋的广告呢，对吧？但我大脑中的那部分并没有被激活，对吧？是的，没有。但是我们可以做得更多，来推动、鼓励和帮助人们，对吧？你不必像有些人那样禁止糖和饼干，对吧？只要简单地宣传和帮助人们自助，对吧？大多数人都想吃更健康的食物。大多数人都想锻炼身体，但他们生活在一个很难实现的世界。而且他们生活在一个几乎没有激励措施的世界里。
I would make it such that healthy food would be as inexpensive as as unhealthy food and make sure that that people had incentives and and make it also fun to be physically active. Like for example, every I mean, who doesn't like to dance, right? Every culture in the world has dancing, right? Dancing is a form of of physical activity. It's social. It's fun. It's engaging. Why don't we have why doesn't every every town in America sponsor dancing, right? You know, it would probably do an enormous amount for people's physical health and their mental health.
我会努力让健康食品和不健康食品一样低价，并确保人们有动力，并让身体活动变得有趣。比如，我是说，谁不喜欢跳舞呢？世界上每个文化都有跳舞，对吧？跳舞是一种体育运动。它具有社交性、趣味性和吸引力。为什么美国的每个城镇都不举办跳舞活动呢？你知道吗，这可能会对人们的身心健康有着巨大作用。
I mean, we could do that. I mean, that's just one example, right? So I would I would I would I would and why is it that in medical schools, doctors don't learn about they don't they don't study nutrition and they don't study exercise and they don't learn because that's because in our medical system is designed to treat people after they get sick rather than prevent people from getting sick. So so we need to you know, reverse how we fund health care, right? And so schools of public health are these kind of little marginalized places where, you know, where where great ideas go to die, right? And medical schools where all the money is, right? And doctors aren't taught to to to to to to. I mean, their entire fields of medicine that don't have the word preventive associated with it. I mean, we're heard of preventive orthodontics or preventive, you know, optometry or prevent it, you know, the preventive orthopedics. I mean, it just doesn't exist, right? So we could do a lot more and and have enormous benefits.
我的意思是，我们可以这样做。我的意思是，那只是一个例子，对吧？所以我会，我会，我会，我会，为什么在医学院，医生们不学习营养，不学习运动，他们为什么不学习呢？因为我们的医疗系统是设计用于治疗病人在他们生病之后，而不是预防人们生病。所以我们需要改变我们如何资助医疗保健，对吧？公共卫生学院就是这种被边缘化的地方，那里好的想法却黯然失色，而医学院则是拥有大量资源的地方。医生们没有被教导去，我是说，整个医学领域都不存在与预防相关的词汇。谁听说过预防正畸学或预防验光学或预防骨科学呢？根本就不存在，对吧？所以我们可以做得更多，并且获益颇多。
Chapter 11 of this book, you talk about someone who has taken their own approach to getting people moving and exercising in their own business. That's the Bjorn Børen company. I love that. Bjorn Børen company. Can you tell me about that?
这本书的第11章，你谈到了某人采用了自己独特的方法来推动人们在他们自己的业务中运动和锻炼。这就是Bjorn Børen公司。我喜欢这个。Bjorn Børen公司。你能告诉我更多关于它的信息吗？
Yeah, so I was um, so I was I was curious about this idea of how to get how to help people be more physically active, right? And again, you know, my my fundamental hypothesis is that we evolved to be physically active either when it's necessary or rewarding. And so I was curious if there's any any companies in the world that have made physical activity necessary. In other words, what if we forced people to be physically active? And I found one so far, I think there's only one company in the world that I know of. Maybe there's some others, but this is the only one I've ever found so far.
是的，所以我对如何帮助人们更加积极参与体育活动这个想法感兴趣。而且，我的基本假设是我们进化成为在需要或有回报的情况下积极运动的。所以我很好奇世界上是否有任何公司让体育活动变得必不可少。换句话说，如果我们强迫人们进行体育活动会怎么样？到目前为止，我只找到了一个公司，我知道世界上可能还有其他公司，但这是我迄今为止唯一找到的一个。
And it's the Bjorn Børen Sports Company in Sweden, where the CEO of the company is this crazy sort of exercise addict. And he he requires every member of the company to exercise. They have sports hour every Friday at 11 o'clock.
这家位于瑞典的Bjorn Børen体育公司，是一位偏执于运动的疯狂的首席执行官所创立。他要求公司的每个成员都必须参与锻炼。每周五上午11点，他们都有一小时的体育活动时间。
So I actually, when I when I was searching around and I was thinking, you know, I'm right working on the book. I actually got a thought found an article about them. And I you know, I clicked on the on the company website. And you know how most companies have a little contact us. So I clicked on the contact us and I wrote a little note saying, you know, dear Bjorn Børen company, I'm a researcher and evolutionary biologist. I'm interested in exercise and I'm fascinated by how your company requires people to exercise. Can I learn more?
我实际上，当我在寻找并思考的时候，你知道，我正在写这本书。我实际上找到了一篇关于他们的文章。然后我点击了公司的网站。你知道，大多数公司都有一个“联系我们”的小窗口。所以我点击了“联系我们”并写了一个小纸条，说：“亲爱的Bjorn Børen 公司，我是一位研究人员和进化生物学家。我对运动很感兴趣，对你们公司如何要求人们参加锻炼感到着迷。我能了解更多吗？”
And the next morning, there was an email from the CEO of the company saying, why don't you come and visit us? So, so I hopped on a plane a few months later, went to Sweden and they let me, he was so nice. He just let me just go anywhere in the company. And I went to sports hour and I talked to employees throughout the company. And it was fascinating.
第二天早上，我收到了公司的CEO发来的一封邮件，询问为什么你不来拜访我们呢？于是几个月后，我踏上了飞往瑞典的飞机，他们让我自由地参观了整个公司，CEO非常友善。我去参观了体育部并与公司员工交谈，真是非常有趣。
I mean, a lot of the employees of the company, first of all, a bunch of people apparently left the company when he took over a CEO and required this. But it doesn't matter who you are, you could be working in the mail room, you could be the CEO, you could be a visiting board member, whoever you are, if you're there on Friday, you have to go exercise with them. And they have this pretty serious kind of exercise thing. And apparently some people quit. But, but, but pretty much everybody else said, you know, it's actually a pretty damn good thing.
我的意思是，这家公司的很多员工，首先，当他上任CEO并要求这样做时，明显有一群人离开了公司。但无论你是谁，你可能在邮件室工作，你可能是CEO，你可能是一位访问董事会成员，无论你是谁，如果你在星期五在那里，你必须和他们一起锻炼。而且他们有一种相当严肃的锻炼方式。显然有些人辞职了。但是，但是，几乎每个人都说，你知道吗，这实际上是一件相当好的事情。
Do you agree with that approach? Well, yes and no. Every university in the world used to require and every school, right? Supposedly requires exercise, right? I'm sure you had physical exercise, you know, some kind of phys ed required in your school. Those standards are slipping around the world and more and more kids are doing less and less in school. Universities are no exception. It used to be that all universities required some degree of physical education. Mine was no exception. In fact, Harvard was a leader in that back in the, you know, 100 something years ago. And over the since basically the 1970s, that's basically disappeared. Although most students, if you ask them, they think, yeah, that's actually a pretty good idea. So I don't know, maybe we can bring back exercise as a, and the thing is that if you get used to it, right, and you're young, you're more likely to do it in your old, right? Because you set those are the, that's the age in which your habits become, become, well, your habits become your habits, right? And so there's a certain age where, where if you can keep, keep, yes, get that making it, making a habit, you're probably more likely to continue doing it for the rest of your life.
你同意这种做法吗？嗯，是和不是。全世界的大学以前都要求，并且所有的学校都要求，对吧？理论上都要求锻炼，对吧？我确信你在学校有体育锻炼，某种形式的体育课是必修的。然而，随着时间的推移，这些标准在全球范围内逐渐松懈，越来越多的孩子在学校里做得越来越少。大学也不例外。过去所有的大学都要求一定程度的体育教育，我的大学也不例外。事实上，哈佛在一百多年前就是这方面的领导者。然而，从20世纪70年代开始，这种要求几乎消失了。虽然大多数学生如果你问他们，他们会觉得这个想法挺好。所以我不知道，也许我们可以重新恢复锻炼作为一种……问题是，如果你养成习惯，年轻时更有可能在老年时继续保持，对吧？因为习惯就是在那个年龄形成的。所以有一个特定的年龄段，如果你能养成习惯，那么你可能更有可能继续终身保持做锻炼。
We kind of see it as overreach, don't we? I was thinking about if I was to announce one of my companies that everyone is now required to exercise. It would seem like, like tremendous overreach. If I announce that everyone is required to read a certain book, they did it and it'd be fine. And it might be seen as a positive thing, right? It might be a representation of our values that we are learners and we're innovators and we keep nourishing our brains. But turned around to your team and said, listen, we're all required to, you're all required to go for a run every day or something. People would, it just feels personal. Yeah. Like that's not the responsibility of an organization to tell me to go exercise. But we have, we have company retreats. I mean, we do all kinds of stuff where people are required to do it. So I don't know, I challenge you, try it.
我们好像把这看作是过度干涉，是吧？我在想，如果我宣布我的公司之一现在要求每个人锻炼身体，会不会看起来像是非常过分的干涉。如果我宣布每个人都需要阅读某本书，大家都照做了，那就没问题。而且这可能被视为一件积极的事情，对吧？这可能代表了我们的价值观，即我们是学习者和创新者，我们一直在滋养我们的大脑。但是如果我转身对你的团队说，听着，我们都需要每天去跑步或者做什么其他运动。人们会觉得这很私人化。是的。就好像组织没有权利要求我去锻炼身体一样。但是我们有公司郊游。我意思是，我们做过各种各样的活动，人们都必须参加。所以我不知道，我挑战你，试试看吧。
What we do, what we've always done, we even do it with this team, the driver's CEO team is about 30 people. So we have a fitness channel in the company Slack channel, the communication channel that we use. And in that channel, and we did this at my previous company as well, where we would enable and facilitate. So we, we, someone started a woman's football team. So we enabled it and promoted it. Someone started a men's football team, so we enabled it and promoted it. And this, this also applies to non physical sort of exercise related clubs. Like someone starts the reason reading club, and we enabled it and promoted it. And we also paid for it. If they need to, if they need new kits, for example, when the women's football team needed, wanted to have their own uniforms, we paid for it. Because we saw a huge value in terms of staff retention, connection, community, and all those things that actually lead up to staff retention, if we could have more social clubs outside of the office.
我们所做的事情，我们一直以来都在做，甚至还是以这个团队为驱动力，驾驶员的首席执行官团队大约有30人。因此，我们在公司的Slack频道中设有一个健身频道，这是我们使用的通信渠道。在那个频道中，正如我们以前的公司也做过的那样，我们会启用和促进各种活动。有人组建了女子足球队，我们支持并推进了它。有人组建了男子足球队，我们也支持并推进了它。这一理念同样适用于非体育锻炼相关的俱乐部，比如有人开设了阅读俱乐部，我们也支持并推广了它，并且支付了费用。例如，当女子足球队需要自己的服装时，我们会支付费用。因为我们认为，拥有更多办公室外的社交俱乐部对于员工保留、互联互通和社区建设等方面都有巨大的价值。
You know, if you're thinking about leaving a job, there's a number of things you weigh up, the pay, the job, whatever, but you also weigh up how the community, like the group of people I love and how much they bring to my life. And I actually think in the remote working world, it's something that CEOs and leaders have really not paid enough attention to that.
你知道的，如果你正在考虑辞职，有很多事情你需要权衡，比如薪水、工作内容等等，但你也需要权衡的是社区的影响，就是那些我喜欢且对我生活有所帮助的人群。事实上，在远程工作的世界中，CEO和领导们在这方面没有给予足够的关注。
If they really want to retain their team members, they should have them together as much as they can, even outside of the office, bonding in a world where screens are on the rise and pubs are on the decline in social activities and churches are on the decline, there's less sort of institutions that connect to socially. Work has a big opportunity to do that.
如果他们真的想要留住团队成员，他们应该尽可能多地让他们在一起，即使是在办公室之外，在一个屏幕崛起而传统社交活动如酒吧和教堂下降的世界中，有更少的能够促进社交的机构。工作有一个很好的机会来实现这一点。
So one of my big things always in my head is like, how can I get the team members of my companies to hang out more? And a multiplier to that is, how can I get them to hang out more and move their bodies more? Because then they'll feel better. Right. Well, think about it. It's play. Play, yeah, exactly. And play is another thing we evolved to do, right? What kids play, and we're one of the few species that plays as adults, right? And what is play? Play is a way in which you learn cooperation, you build community, but you also move your body, right?
所以我一直在思考的一个大问题是，我如何让我的公司团队成员更多地聚在一起？而且更重要的是，如何让他们更多地进行身体活动？因为这样他们会感觉更好。没错。想一想，这是一种游戏。游戏，没错，就是这样。而且游戏是我们进化到成年后仍然进行的一种活动，对吧？孩子们玩耍，而我们是少数几种在成年时仍然玩耍的物种之一，对吧？那么什么是游戏呢？游戏是一种学习合作、建立社区的方式，同时也是一种运动，对吧？
In the first chapter of your book, you said that you went to visit the Native American tribe, and I'm going to try and perhaps pronounce this, the Tara Humor. Tara Humor. And they're famous for their long running. Yes. What did you learn about running from them? Well, you know, they have been famous for well over 100 years. I mean, many people have gone to study the Tara Maran and have commented on their amazing ability to run. But what I really learned from them is that for them, physical activity is spiritual.
在你的书的第一章中，你说你去拜访了美洲原住民部落，我会试着发音一下，塔拉·幽默。塔拉·幽默。他们以长时间奔跑而闻名。没错。你从他们那里学到了什么关于跑步的知识？嗯，你知道，他们已经有100多年的名声了。我是说，很多人去研究塔拉·马兰并对他们惊人的奔跑能力进行评论。但我从他们那里真正学到的是，对他们来说，体育活动是一种精神上的东西。
You know, there's this book born to run that describes their running and calls them a hidden tribe of super-athletes, they're not hidden, and they're not super-athletes. And the one thing that the book missed was that the main impetus for the running, they do these famous long distance races, is that it's a form of prayer. It's really very beautiful. And it's a metaphor for life. And it's also an opportunity to bet in sports and all that. It's all wrapped into one.
你知道，有一本《生而为跑者》的书描述了他们的奔跑，称他们为一个隐藏的超级运动员部落，但他们并不是隐藏的，也不是超级运动员。而这本书忽略了一个重要的原因，他们参与这些著名的长跑比赛的主要动力是一种祈祷的形式。这真的很美好，也是对生活的隐喻。同时，这也是一个下注走运动和一切的机会，这一切融为一体。
And what I've learned was that this actually used to be almost universal among Native American populations, right? Native American drives. Everybody had long distance races and ballgames, and they were all had a spiritual element. It's just that they've retained their traditions because they're in a very remote part of Mexico that's essentially inaccessible. We all used to do this. All humans used to do this.
而我了解到的是，这实际上在以前几乎在所有美洲原住民中普遍存在，对吗？美洲原住民的驱动力。每个人都参加长跑和球赛，这些活动都有一种宗教元素。只不过他们之所以保留了传统，是因为他们处在一个几乎无法抵达的墨西哥偏远地区。我们以前都这样做。所有人类都曾这样做过。
In fact, if you think if you look around the world, every population has this tradition of endurance, endurance events. Some of the subject that you talk about in your book, but also outside of your book is how we used to run in terms of, you know, I was at the foot doctor. What's it called? I don't know what they're called. Podiatrist. That's what I said. But podiatrist. But I went to the podiatrist the other day because I got this, what's it called when you're in a point on my foot? This part of my foot here started to get lots of pain. Plantar fasciitis. That's it. Plantar fasciitis.
事实上，如果你看看世界各地，每个族群都有忍耐力、耐力活动的传统。你在书中谈论的一些主题，以及书外的一些内容，都与我们过去的奔跑方式有关。你知道吗，我最近去看足科医生。这个叫什么来着？我忘了怎么称呼他们。足病专家，就是这个词。但我前几天去看了足科医生，因为我脚上有这样一个地方的疼痛。我的脚这个部位开始感到很痛，这是什么来着？是这种叫足底筋膜炎。没错，足底筋膜炎。
I started to get some plantar fasciitis. And it was just this ongoing pain. And they prescribed me some insoles. I was done on a couple of machines, some soft stuff. And they measured my foot and took this scan of it and said, right, basically you're standing wrong. Your arch is a bit too flat. Take these insoles and wear them in all of your shoes. And I just, I always think in these moments when someone prescribes me something that's not natural, I go, why? Like, where did I go wrong? And I think that's the key question. Where did I go wrong? Who lied to me? To the point now that at 30 years old, I have these bloody insoles that have to put in all my shoes. Because presumably, that's not natural. Presumably my ancestors don't have bloody insoles. Yeah.
我开始患上了足底筋膜炎。一直有一种持续的疼痛。医生给我开了一些鞋垫。然后我在几台机器上完成了一些软性治疗。他们还测量了我的脚并进行了扫描，说道：你的站立姿势有些不正确，你的脚弓太平了。把这些鞋垫放在每双鞋子里穿。我总是在别人给我开药时会想，为什么？我错在哪里了？谁欺骗了我？直到现在，我30岁了，却不得不在所有的鞋子里放上这些该死的鞋垫。因为这显然是不自然的。显然，我的祖先并没有用这些该死的鞋垫。是的。
So plantar fasciitis is what I would call a mismatch disease, right? A disease that's more common or more severe because our bodies are inadequately adapted to modern environments. And in your case, and as is the case with a lot of people, you have a weak foot. So we, you know, you look like you go to the gym, looks like you're pretty fit person, right? I'll make a bet you strengthen pretty much every muscle group in your body except your feet, right? I call it. Right.
所以，足底筋膜炎是我所称之为适应不足的疾病，对吧？这种疾病更常见或更严重，是因为我们的身体对现代环境适应能力不足。而你的情况和很多人一样，你的脚比较弱。所以，你看起来是一个经常去健身房的人，看起来你很健康，对吧？我敢打赌，你几乎锻炼了你身体的每一个肌肉群，除了你的脚，对吧？我就是这么说的。对吧。
Well, but we don't. Right. One of the reasons is because we, we encase our feet in stiff, sold shoes that are very comfortable. And the reason the shoes are comfortable is that your foot muscles have to do less work when you use using those shoes, right? We have shoes that are stiff soles, they have arch supports, right? And your foot has four layers of muscles in them. And those muscles are supporting your arch.
嗯，但我们不这样做。对的。其中一个原因是因为我们把我们的脚放进坚硬的舒适鞋里。这些鞋子之所以舒适是因为你在穿着这些鞋子时，你的脚部肌肉需要做更少的工作，对吧？我们的鞋子有坚硬的鞋底，脚弓得到支撑，对吧？而且你的脚部有四层肌肉。这些肌肉支撑着你的脚弓。
And at the bottom of those four layers of muscles is this layer of connective tissue, the plantar fascia. And the problem with the plantar fascia is that if it stretches too much, it, like anything else, right? It gets inflamed. But it's got almost no vascularization, right?
在这四层肌肉的底部是这一层结缔组织，即足底筋膜。而足底筋膜的问题是，如果它被拉伸得过多，就像其他任何部位一样，它会发炎。但是它几乎没有血管供应，对吗？
So it's very hard for it to repair itself when it gets inflamed. To prevent placer plantar fasciaitis, the best way to preventing it is having a strong foot, a strong foot, a healthy foot. So the way to, way to treat the disease on the long term is to strengthen your foot. But if you want to just alleviate the symptoms, that's what your podiatrist did. By giving you an insult, right? It's basically preventing your arch from collapsing as much, making it more comfortable.
因此，当足底筋膜受到炎症时，它很难自我修复。预防足底筋膜炎最好的方法是拥有一个强壮、健康的脚。所以从长远来看，强化脚部是治疗这种病的方法。但如果你只是想缓解症状，那就是你的足病医师所做的。他通过给你一个支撑物来防止你的足弓过度塌陷，使脚部更加舒适。
So your plantar fascia gets stress less. And so it can kind of alleviates that stretching and hence the pain, right? So that's a typical example of what I call disevolution. It's what happens when you treat the symptoms of a mismatch disease rather than their causes of preventing their causes. So podiatrists are a bit like drug pushers in that sense, right? Because they're essentially putting your foot in the cast, right? And then for the rest of your life, you kind of have to keep using them unless you strengthen your feet.
所以你的足底筋膜承受的压力较小。因此它可以缓解这种拉伸和因此而产生的疼痛，对吗？这是我所称之为退化的典型例子。这就是当你治疗一个不匹配疾病的症状而不是预防它们的原因时发生的情况。所以从某种意义上说，足病医生有点像毒品贩子，对吗？因为他们基本上是把你的脚套入绷带中，然后在你的余生中，你基本上必须继续使用它们，除非你强化你的脚部肌肉。
So there's nothing wrong with those treating the symptoms. I mean, pain is no fun. So where are the insults, right? To kind of alleviate the pain, but also work on strengthening your foot. And I think you'll find that the plantar fasciaitis will disappear and never come back. So the plantar fasciaitis fasciaitis has now healed. After about a month of wearing the insult, I no longer have the insults with me here in New York. And I don't have them in any of my shoes because I've also taken a bit of time off running on my feet. I was playing a lot of football.
所以治疗症状没有错。我的意思是，疼痛是不好受的。那么受伤在哪里呢？在减轻疼痛的同时，也要加强你的脚部。我相信你会发现足底筋膜炎将会消失，并且不会再复发。所以足底筋膜炎现在已经痊愈了。在戴上垫子约一个月后，我在纽约这里再也不需要它们了。而且因为我也花了一些时间不跑步，所以我的鞋子里也没有垫子。我之前一直在踢很多足球。
So now I'm at a point where I can go to the preventable stage, prevent it happening again. And you said to strengthen my foot. How does one strengthen their foot? Good question. So there are some exercises. They're kind of foot-doming exercises and things like what you're there. I can send you some links to videos showing you some good foot strengthening exercises. So that's one way to do it.
现在我已经到了一个可以采取预防措施的阶段，防止再次发生这样的情况。而你说过要加强我的脚。如何加强脚部呢？很好的问题。有一些练习可以进行。它们可以称为脚部拱起运动，类似你在那个地方的运动。我可以给你发送一些视频链接，展示一些有效的脚部加强运动。这是一种方法。
But the other way is to wear more minimal shoes, to wear shoes that aren't stiff-sold, that don't have arch supports. Go barefoot a lot, and that will naturally strengthen the muscles in your foot because you'll have to use those muscles. So you've ever gone for like a long walk or run on a beach, right? And afterwards, your feet are kind of tired. The reason your feet are tired is because you're now working on a compliant surface, right? It's not stiff. So your muscles are having to work more to stiffen your foot to push you forward, right?
但另一种方式是穿较为轻便的鞋子，不要选择硬底的鞋子，也不要使用拱形支撑。经常赤脚行走，这样可以自然地加强脚部肌肉，因为你必须使用这些肌肉。你有没有在海滩上长时间散步或跑步过？之后你的脚感觉有点累。你的脚疲劳是因为现在你在一个灵活的表面上运动，对吧？它不是硬邦邦的。因此，你的肌肉需要更加努力地僵硬你的脚来推动你前行，对吧？
Jack, could you go grab my the black shoe out of my bag? I just want to show him something. So wearing shoes that aren't has stiff-sold, they don't have all arch supports, will slowly strengthen your feet. But, and this is a huge butt, if you do too much too fast, your plantar fascias will come roaring back and you'll hate me. You'll never forgive me because, yeah, there's a Vivo barefoot. Yeah, I wear the same shoes.
杰克，你能帮我从包里拿出那双黑鞋吗？我只是想给他看一些东西。所以穿着没有硬鞋底、没有足弓支撑的鞋子会逐渐加强你的脚部力量。但是，这里有一个重要的问题，如果你做得太多太快，你的足底筋膜会重新发炎，你会恨死我。你永远不会原谅我，因为是的，有 Vivo 裸足鞋。是的，我也穿同样的鞋子。
Oh, you've got the same shoes on. Great shoes. Yeah, those are wonderful shoes. Those are the exactly the kind of shoes that will help strengthen your feet. These are fairly a new addition in my life. Yeah, they feel really strange because you can kind of feel the floor. Yeah, it's exactly what you've described as. Yeah, but you can transition. If you have a weak feet, which I'm guessing you do, if you suddenly, that's the only shoe you wear all the time, you'll probably regret it, right? So, so slowly, slowly, slowly increase the percentage of time that just like anything else.
哦，你们穿的是同款鞋子。很不错的鞋子。是啊，那些鞋子很棒。那些鞋子正是能帮助加强你的脚的那种。这是我生活中的一个相对新的补充。是的，它们感觉很奇怪，因为你可以感受到地板。是的，正如你所描述的一样。但是你可以逐渐转变。如果你的脚比较虚弱，我猜你的情况是这样的，如果你突然只穿这种鞋子，你可能会后悔，对吧？所以，慢慢地，慢慢地，慢慢地增加穿这种鞋子的时间比例，就像其他任何事物一样。
So if you, if you suddenly decide to lift, you know, huge weights that you can't lift before, you'll hurt yourself, right? The same thing is with your feet. So, so slowly it does it, but if you do it gradually and slowly and carefully, you can build up strength in your foot and you'll, and you'll be a happier, happier person. And this is, this goes back to everything else you've said about how choosing comfort, choosing to have a nice supportive shoe has actually just kind of deferred a problem off into the future for me. It's the same with diets, the same with avoiding exercise and being sedentary and all these other things where when you choose the easy road in the short term, which is this wonderful cushion shoe I've chosen, the muscle hasn't built up in my foot and I've paid the price.
所以，如果你突然决定举起你之前举不起来的重物，你会受伤，对吗？同样的道理也适用于你的双脚。因此，慢慢地做，但如果你逐渐、缓慢且谨慎地做，你可以增强脚部力量，你会成为一个更快乐的人。这与你提到的有关选择舒适、选择一个良好支撑鞋的所有其他观点一样，实际上只是将问题拖延到未来。同样，节食、避免运动和久坐等其他事情都是如此，当你选择短期内简易舒适的道路，也就是我选择的这种舒适的缓冲鞋时，我的脚部肌肉没有得到锻炼，我也付出了代价。
Correct. So I need to again choose discomfort more in the short term, go up the stairs, run barefoot to avoid the late, the consequences later down the line. Yeah, I mean, I don't think you have to run barefoot, but I can be fun, but, but yeah, I mean, and I can think of plenty of other examples. We love comfort, but comfort's not necessarily good for us. When you, when you look at these tribes, are they, do you know who Liverpool is? Huge massive muscles, talks about ancestor are living. What do our hunter-gatherer ancestors look like in terms of their?
正确。所以我需要再次选择短期的不适，上楼梯，光脚跑步来避免之后的后果。是的，我的意思是，不一定非要光脚跑步，但这可能很有趣，但是是的，我是说，我还可以想到很多其他的例子。我们喜欢舒适，但舒适不一定对我们有好处。当你看这些部落的时候，你知道利物浦吗？肌肉发达，谈论先祖的生活。我们的狩猎采集祖先在外貌上是什么样的？
Not like him. I mean, like, think about it. Muscle is really expensive, right? It's actually a super expensive tissue, about a third of our bodies muscle and it's using up about, about, you know, a fifth or more of the calories that we're expending, right? Just just sitting there, not even using them, right? They're very costly tissues, right? And so if you have more muscle than you need, you're basically adding to your, your cost of living, right? And if you're, and if you're a hunter-gatherer or even a subsistence farmer living on the margin of food security, having more muscle than you need is actually deleterious, right? Remember, the only thing that natural selection cares about is how many offspring you have who survive and reproduce. Doesn't care if you're strong, or healthy, or nice, or loved, or, you know, fun, or whatever. It only cares about whether you have grandchildren. That's it, right? That's the cold calculus of selection.
不像他。我是说，想想看。肌肉真的很昂贵，对吧？实际上，肌肉是一种非常昂贵的组织，约占我们身体肌肉的三分之一，并且消耗了我们消耗的大约五分之一甚至更多的热量，对吧？就那么呆在那里，甚至都没有使用它们，对吧？它们是非常昂贵的组织，对吧？所以如果你的肌肉超过了你需要的量，实际上你只是增加了你的生活成本，对吧？如果你是一个狩猎采集者，甚至是一个在食物安全边缘上生活的自给自足的农民，拥有多余的肌肉实际上是有害的，对吧？记住，自然选择只关心你有多少个能够生存并繁衍后代的子孙，不在乎你是否强壮、健康、友善、受人爱戴、有趣或其他任何因素。它只关心你是否有孙子孙女。这就是冷酷的选择计算。
My brain is going, if I have big muscles, I'll have more romantic opportunities, and I'll have grandchildren. Only up to a certain point, right? So if more muscles, if they attract the opposite sex and and make them want to reproduce with you, yes, that could be a benefit. I'm not so sure how much women are attracted to the liver king, but, and that's not something I even want to know the answer to, but, and certainly shouldn't ask him, but, but, but there's a reason we have use it or lose it, which you mentioned earlier, right? Because when we need, when we increase our demand, we increase our capacity, right? When you go to the gym and you work out, right, you build muscle, but if you stop using those muscles, you lose it. And that's an adaptation, right? Because you don't want to spend extra energy on muscles you're not using, right? So you want enough, but not too much. You want to be economical with muscle mass, right? And so our, if you look at the data from hunter-gatherers, and people have done that, they've done grip strength tests, etc, and all kinds of other fun things with like mini-elimpics, I mean, we've done this too, people are reasonably strong, but they're not super strong, and they're not, they're not buff and built and bulked and all that sort of stuff. They've got enough muscle to do what they need to do, but no more.
我的大脑开始运转了，如果我拥有强壮的肌肉，我会有更多浪漫的机会，也会有孙辈。但只有到一定程度，对吧？所以，如果肌肉更多，如果它们能吸引异性并让他们想要与你繁衍后代，是的，那可能是一个好处。我不确定女性对肝王(Liver king)是否有吸引力，但是，这不是我想知道答案的事情，而且也不应该问他，但是，但是，我们之所以有"用或失之"的原因，正如你之前提到的，对吧？因为当我们需要时，我们增加需求，我们增加容量，对吧？当你去健身房锻炼时，你增加了肌肉，但是如果停止使用那些肌肉，你就会失去它们。这是一种适应，对吧？因为你不想浪费额外的能量在你不使用的肌肉上，对吧？所以你想要足够的肌肉，但不要太多。你要节约肌肉质量，对吧？因此，如果你看猎人采集者的数据，人们已经做过这样的研究，他们做过握力测试等各种有趣的事情，就像小型奥运会一样，我意思是，我们也做过这些，人们的力量是足够强大的，但不是非常强大，他们不是大块头、肌肉发达之类的。他们的肌肉足够做他们需要的事情，但不多。
And the reason why people find muscle attractive anyway is because it's evolutionary signal, isn't it, of reproductive value and resources, maybe, and the ability to go out and, you know what I mean? Why does a woman, for example, find a man with muscles or in good shape attractive in 2023 when we're not hunting for gazelle? Well, I'm not a psychologist or, so I'm not sure if I'm qualified to answer that, but I could venture to guess that, obviously, if you're trying to, you know, we pair bond as a species and we have been for millions of years, probably, you want to pair bond with somebody who's going to, because we also have cooperation and food sharing, right?
人们为什么会觉得肌肉有吸引力呢？也许是因为它是一种进化信号，代表了繁殖价值和资源，而且还能展现出在外面闯荡的能力，你懂的。例如，为什么在2023年，女性会觉得身材好或拥有肌肉的男性有吸引力，明明我们已经不需要出去狩猎了呢？哦，我不是心理学家，所以不确定自己是否有资格回答这个问题，但是我猜测，显然地，我们作为一个物种进行配对与合作已经有数百万年的历史，你想要与那些能够，因为我们也有合作与分享食物的需求，对吧？
You want to pair bond with somebody who's going to be able to, you know, bring home the bacon, literally and figuratively, right? But bringing on the bacon does not mean looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger, at least back in the day, Arnold Schwarzenegger back in the day, right? Being, bringing home the bacon back in the day meant being a persistent hunter, being able to run long distances and being moderately strong. So they looked more like a marathoner or a football player than they did a weight lifter, right? So it's conceivable, it's conceivable that someone who is really, really big is actually less attractive because they wouldn't have been able to hunt and run and hunt as well as someone who's a little bit. Yeah, you also have to feed them more, too. Yeah. And that's a, you know, those are precious calories. So I'm going to guess that, and look, if you look in non-Western populations, you don't see physiques like that. This is a privilege of people who are able to go to gyms and, you know, you know, way powder shakes and all that kind of stuff to kind of build their crazy muscle mess. But it's not something that our ancestors were able to do on a regular basis, that's for sure.
你想要与一个能够真正带给家庭经济支持的人建立伴侣关系，对吧？但是“带回培根”并不意味着看起来像阿诺德·施瓦辛格，至少在那个年代不是。在过去，“带回培根”意味着成为一个持久的猎人，能够长跑并具备适度的力量。所以他们更像是马拉松运动员或者橄榄球运动员，而不是举重运动员，对吧？所以，可以想象一个体型非常大的人实际上可能不太有吸引力，因为他们无法像那些稍微小一点的人一样擅长狩猎和奔跑。而且，你还需要为他们提供更多的食物。是的，这些都是宝贵的热量。所以，我猜想，在非西方人口中，你看不到那样的体格。这是那些能够去健身房、喝蛋白粉等方式来塑造他们的肌肉的人的特权。但这绝对不是我们的祖先能够经常做到的事情。
A quick word on Hule. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company. One of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a relationship with Hule. One day in the office, many years ago, a guy walked past called Michael and he was wearing a Hule t-shirt. And I was really compelled by the logo. I just thought for a minute, a design aesthetic point of view. It was really interesting. And I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that t-shirt. And he said, it's this brand called Hule, and they make food that is nutritionally complete and very, very convenient and has the planet in mind. And he, the next day, dropped off a little bottle of Hule on my desk. And from that day onwards, I completely got it because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a nutritionally complete diet. But sometimes, because of the way my life is, that falls by the wayside. So if there was a really convenient, reliable, trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete, in an affordable way, I was all ears, especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet, give it a chance, give it a shot, let me know what you think.
关于Hule的一句话。正如你所知，他们是这个播客的赞助商，而我是该公司的投资者。有一件事我从未真正解释过，那就是我如何与Hule建立关系。多年前的某一天，在办公室里，一个叫迈克尔的人走过，他穿着一件Hule的T恤。我被他的标志所吸引，从设计美学的角度来看，我觉得它非常有趣。我问他那个词的意思，以及为什么他要穿那件T恤。他说，这是一个叫做Hule的品牌，他们制作的食物营养完整，非常方便，并且考虑到了地球的利益。第二天，他给我在桌子上留下了一小瓶Hule。从那一天起，我完全明白了，因为我非常在意拥有营养全面的饮食，但由于生活方式的原因，有时会忽略了这一点。所以，如果有一种非常便捷、可靠、值得信赖的方式让我在经济实惠的情况下达到营养全面，我愿意倾听，特别是如果这种方式还能关注地球，我会给它一个机会，试一试，告诉我你的想法。
There's another myth that you bust, which I thought was really interesting because I think I know a lot of people that have used this as a reason not to run. They say, it's really bad for your knees. Oh man, that gets me so mad, right? I mean, I hear this from doctors all the time, right? Oh yeah, running is bad for your knees. Now it is true that knee injuries are the most common running injuries. But arthritis, such as really what they're usually talking about, it's absolutely definitively not true that running increases rates of knee cartilage damage in arthritis. So arthritis is caused by cartilage wearing away in a joint, right? And it's a myth that running actually increases cartilage damage. If you have arthritis, running is excruciating and problematic. But if you don't have it, running actually, if anything, maybe slightly preventive, because cartilage joints, like everything else, benefits from being used, right? And so physical activity actually helps promote strong and healthy joints.
有一个关于跑步的另一个误解，我觉得非常有意思，因为我认识很多人都以此为理由不去跑步。他们说，跑步对膝盖很不好。哦，天啊，这真让我生气，你说呢？我是说，我经常听到医生这么说，对吧？哦是的，跑步对膝盖不好。不过，膝盖受伤的确是跑步中最常见的问题。但是，关于关节炎，他们通常所说的，跑步绝对不会增加关节软骨的损伤率，这是绝对真实的。所以关节炎是由关节里的软骨磨损引起的，对吧？而关于跑步实际上会增加软骨损伤的观点是错误的。如果你有关节炎，跑步会非常痛苦和麻烦。但是如果你没有关节炎，跑步实际上可能有一定的预防作用，因为与其他事物一样，软骨关节也需要经常使用，对吧？因此，体育锻炼实际上有助于促进强壮和健康的关节。
We used to think that it just caused them to wear away, but actually, you know, like cars, you know, wearing away at their tires. But now we know that actually physical activity promotes repair mechanisms in cartilage, just as it does in other tissues in the body.
我们曾经认为它只是造成关节软骨磨损，就像汽车磨损轮胎一样。但现在我们知道，实际上体力活动促进了关节软骨的修复机制，就像它在身体其他组织中所起的作用一样。
And of course, the other thing about running is that I think a lot of people run incorrectly today. So that's why we started studying barefoot running millions, you know, a bunch of a few decades ago is because if humans have been running for millions of years, most of that time we were running barefoot.
当然，关于跑步的另一件事是，我认为今天很多人跑步的方式是错误的。所以这就是为什么我们在几十年前开始研究赤足跑步的原因，因为如果人类已经跑步了几百万年，那么大部分时间我们都是赤足跑步的。
So we're kind of curious, how did people run before shoes? And what we learned was that today, shoes have these cushioned heels that enable you to essentially run the way you walk, right, you land on your heel. And everybody who's barefoot sometimes lands on their heel, but people who are barefoot often, more often than not land on the ball of their foot and then then let their heel down. It's called a forefoot strike or a midfoot strike.
所以我们有点好奇，在有鞋子之前人们是如何跑步的呢？我们了解到的是，现在的鞋子都有缓冲的后跟，使你能够像走路一样跑步，你的脚跟着地。而光脚的人有时也会用脚跟着地，但光脚的人更常用前脚掌着地然后再放下脚跟。这被称为前脚掌着地或中脚掌着地。
And when you do that, we worked out the biomechanics of that and published a paper on the cover of nature showing that when you do that, you actually prevent your foot from crashing into the ground causing it what's called an impact collisional force. You run lightly and gently. So if you were to take your shoes off and run up Lexington Avenue here, I'd guarantee you you would not be landing on your heels. Within a few steps, you'd start landing on the ball of your foot because it hurts less.
当你这样做时，我们研究了这个动作的生物力学，并在《自然》杂志封面上发表了一篇论文，证明当你这样做时，实际上可以防止你的脚撞击地面，产生所谓的冲击碰撞力。你会轻盈而温和地奔跑。所以，如果你脱掉鞋子在这里的列克星敦大道上跑步，我可以保证你不会用脚后跟着地。几步之后，你会开始用脚掌着地，因为这样会减少疼痛感。
And so that's how we evolved to run. We evolved to run in a cushion in a way that doesn't involve slamming into the ground with every step. And that causes less force around your knee. The trade-off though, because nothing comes for free, everything has trade-offs, is that it's harder on your ankles. Your calf muscles and your kiddies have to do now a lot more work to let your heel down. And so people who switch from heel striking to forefoot striking often have Achilles tendon problems.
这就是我们进化成跑步的方式。我们进化出一种在运动中不会在每一步都猛击地面的方式来进行缓冲，这样可以减少对膝盖周围的压力。然而，这也会对脚踝产生更大的压力，因为没有任何东西是免费的，每件事都有所取舍。现在你的小腿肌肉和小腿肚必须做更多的工作来放松你的脚后跟。所以，从脚后跟着地方式转变为前脚掌着地方式的人经常会出现跟腱问题。
They get calf muscle problems. If they don't do it properly, they'll get their foot muscles aren't strong enough. They'll get all kinds of foot problems, right? So you can't just suddenly become a barefoot runner and start forefoot striking. If you're going to switch, you have to switch gradually and slowly and build up strength and learn to do it properly. The other thing people do is they tend to run like a ballerina high up on their toes. That's really hard on your ankles and your calves. So you've got to do it properly, but it can have enormous benefits.
他们会出现小腿肌肉问题。如果他们不正确地做这个，他们的脚部肌肉就不够强壮。他们会出现各种脚部问题，对吧？所以你不能突然成为一个光脚跑者并开始前足着地跑步。如果你打算转变，你必须逐渐慢慢地转变，增强力量和学会正确运动。另一件事是人们往往像芭蕾舞者一样高高跳起跑。这对脚踝和小腿非常难受。所以你必须正确做，但它可以带来巨大的好处。
And so, and we know again, if you run that way, there's put much less force on your knees. And again, knees are where people get injured the most. So I think a lot of knee injuries come from the way in which we run. So would you recommend if you can to run more barefoot, especially if you have those kind of issues we just discussed? Well, I think what matters is how you run that what's on your feet. So I would say a barefoot style.
所以，我们再次知道，如果你以那种方式跑步，对你的膝盖的压力会减少很多。而膝盖受伤是人们最常见的伤势。所以我认为很多膝盖受伤都是因为我们跑步的方式。所以，如果你有那些我们刚才讨论过的问题，你会推荐更多地光脚跑步吗？嗯，我认为重要的是你跑步的方式而不是你脚上穿着什么。所以我会说光脚跑步比较好。
How do I learn to run in a new way, though? Well, I mean, there's some tricks. So one of them is, first of all, I don't know how you run. So it may be maybe you already run just fine. But a barefoot style tends to be a high stride rate or a high stride frequency. So 90 strides per minute or 180 steps per minute, roughly. 170 to 180 steps per minute is about right.
我如何学会以新的方式跑步呢？嗯，我的意思是，有一些技巧。首先，我不知道你是怎么跑步的。也许你已经跑得很好了。但是光脚跑步方式通常是高步频或高步频率。大约每分钟90步或180步。每分钟170到180步大约是正确的步频。
Relatively short strides. So you're not throwing your leg out. And to me, the most important thing is not what we call over-striding. You ask any coach on the planet, they'll say over-striding is bad. Over-strides when you throw your leg out way in front of you and you land. And that leg is a stiff leg. So that stiff leg means more force, right? And it's harder on your knees. And so a good runner lands with their shank, with their tibia vertical. So their ankle is below their knee.
相对较短的步幅。这样你就不会把腿甩出去了。对我来说，最重要的是不要过度跨步。你问任何一个教练，他们都会说过度跨步是不好的。过度跨步是当你把腿甩到你前方很远的地方然后着陆。而且那条腿是僵硬的。所以这条僵硬的腿意味着更多的力量，对吧？而且对你的膝盖更加艰难。所以一个好的跑者会用他们的小腿，胫骨竖直着地。所以他们的脚踝在膝盖以下。
When you do that, pretty much everything will work out properly. It'll mean that you won't land hard on your heel. It'll mean that your leg will be acting like an excellent spring. You will produce a lot of braking force. To me, I think the most important skill in running is not to over-stride. So don't worry about how you're going to hit the ground. Just worry about your over-stride. If you solve your over-stride, you're more likely to run well.
当你这样做时，几乎一切都会正常运作。这意味着你不会重重地踩在脚后跟上。它意味着你的腿将像一个出色的弹簧一样发挥作用。你将产生很大的制动力。对我来说，我认为跑步中最重要的技巧就是不要过量迈步。所以不要担心你要如何着地，只需担心过量迈步的问题。如果你解决了过量迈步的问题，你更有可能跑得好。
What do you think is the best kind of cardiovascular exercise for the promotion of good health? Because I've been doing some cross-fit stuff. I've been doing some hit workouts. I've been trying not to run because I've had a few injuries and try not to run as much because it seems to be a little bit more impact than if I'm bullshooting myself there. But I've been doing some like hit workouts for 30 minutes a day when I leave here.
你认为什么样的有氧运动是促进健康的最佳选择？因为我一直在做一些跨界训练。我一直在做一些高强度间歇训练。我尽量避免跑步，因为我之前有几次受伤，所以减少跑步次数，因为跑步对身体冲击较大。但我每天离开这里后会进行30分钟的高强度间歇训练。
Well, you do hit-hit-hit-hit works every single day. Any much every day at the moment. We track it with a group of friends we have. There's 10 of us in a WhatsApp group. Whoever's lost, whoever does the least workouts every month, is evicted. There's a raffle. So there's a raffle yesterday on the first. Was it the first yesterday? Yeah. For a new member. And we do that every month and we've done it for three and a half years. That's great. I've been in the first ever member. So I've been in there for three and a half years.
好吧，你每天都会打打打打工作。现在每天都有很多。我们和一群朋友一起追踪。我们在WhatsApp群里有10个人。每个月，谁输了，谁锻炼次数最少的人会被踢出去。我们会进行抽奖。昨天是第一日，进行了一次抽奖。是昨天第一次吗？是的。我们每个月都会这样做，已经三年半了。太好了。我是最早的成员。所以我已经在那里待了三年半了。
Well, I think the best exercise, the one you like, do it. But is there one that's like better? You know, I think you've got to mix it up. There is no one perfect exercise. I think what you do sounds actually pretty good. You've got a mixture of low, slow intensity, some high intensity. You want to have some strength training. You want to have some cardio. I mean, we never evolved to do one thing. And our bodies are too complex to benefit from just one thing. Mixing it up is the obvious way to go. I think the bedrock for any kind of physical, I mean, you've asked anybody, right? Cardio is the bedrock of exercise, right? It promotes the most health benefits, right? It's good for your burning energy. It's good for your cardiovascular system. It's good for controlling inflammation. But there are different kinds of cardio in high intensity versus low intensity. And there's also strength training, right? Which is also important. So, there's no.
嗯，我认为最好的锻炼就是你喜欢的那种。但是是否有一种更好的呢？你知道，我认为你需要多样化。没有一种完美的锻炼方式。我认为你所做的听起来其实很好。你有一些低强度、缓慢的运动，还有一些高强度的。你想要进行一些力量训练，还想要进行一些有氧运动。我的意思是，我们从来没有进化成只做一件事的。我们的身体太复杂了，不可能只从一种运动中获得益处。多样化是显而易见的选择。我认为任何一种体育锻炼的基础，不管你问任何人，对吧?有氧运动是锻炼的基础，对吧?它可以促进最多的健康好处，对吧?它对消耗能量有益，对心血管系统有益，对控制炎症有益。但是有不同种类的有氧运动，有高强度和低强度的区别。还有力量训练，对吧?这也很重要。所以，没有一种最好的锻炼方式。
Look, we tried to medicalize exercise, right? It's like there's a proper dose, right? You take this pill, this many milligrams, this many times per week, right? Exercise, it doesn't work that way. There is no optimal dose. Everybody's different. Depends on, are you more worried about heart disease or Alzheimer's or diabetes or depression or, are you previously injured? Are you fit? Are you unfit? It's impossible to prescribe exercise in this kind of medicalized way. It doesn't work.
看，我们试图将锻炼医疗化，对吧？就像是有适当的剂量一样，对吧？你吃这种药，每周这么多毫克，多少次，对吧？而锻炼并不是这样的。没有最佳剂量。每个人都不同。这取决于你更担心心脏病还是阿尔茨海默病还是糖尿病还是抑郁症，或者你之前是否受过伤？你是否健康？不健康？以这种医疗化的方式开具运动处方是不可能的。这行不通。
A lot of people exercise because they believe it will help them to lose fat. Belly fat. One of the biggest debates on the planet. It has been a huge debate, even on this podcast, I've had multiple people come and say a whole range of things about weight loss and cardio. And I'm kind of, I don't know what to believe anymore. Well, anybody was confused doesn't understand what's going on, right? It's sad that it's such a debate, but that's how science works, right? So, as you know, I wrote about that in this book. Part of the explanation for the debate is that, again, what dose are you analyzing and what population in what kind of context, right?
很多人进行锻炼是因为相信它能帮助他们减掉腹部脂肪。腹部脂肪，全球最大的争议之一。即使在这个播客上，它也一直是一个热门争议话题，我曾经有很多人给出关于减肥和有氧运动的各种不同的观点。我有点不知道该相信什么了。当然，任何被困惑的人都不明白正在发生什么，对吧？很遗憾它会成为一个如此大的争议，但这就是科学的运作方式，对吧？因此，正如你所知，我在这本书中也谈到了这个问题。造成争议的部分原因是，你在分析什么剂量以及什么种群在什么样的背景下。
So, pretty much every major health organization in the world recommends that you get 150 minutes per week of physical activity. That's kind of like the benchmark. That's what the, you know, the WHA, the World Health Organization considers the division between being sedentary versus active. So, and a lot of people are unfit and overweight and struggling to be physically active have struggled to get 150 minutes a week, right? So, a lot of studies prescribe 150 minutes a week of exercise, walking, for example, a moderate intensity physical activity, and then look at effects on weight loss. And guess what? When you, when you walk 150 minutes a week, which is what? 20 minutes a day of walking, it's about a mile, a mile a day, you're not going to lose much weight. You're basically burning about 50 calories a day doing that, right? That's a piddling amount of calories compared to drinking a glass of orange juice, right? So, so surprise, surprise, those kinds of studies show that those doses of physical activity are not very effective for weight loss.
因此，世界上几乎所有的主要健康组织都建议每周进行150分钟的体育活动。这可以视为一个基准。也就是世界卫生组织（WHA）认为久坐与积极运动之间的分界线。因此，很多不健康、超重并且想要积极运动的人努力也很难达到每周150分钟的目标，对吧？因此，很多研究建议每周进行150分钟的运动，比如散步，这是一种中等强度的身体活动，然后观察对减重的影响。猜猜看？当你每周散步150分钟，也就是每天20分钟散步，大约一英里的距离，你几乎不会减重。你每天只能燃烧大约50卡路里，不是吗？与喝一杯橙汁相比，这只是微不足道的热量。所以，出乎意料的是，这类研究表明这些运动量对于减重效果并不明显。
However, plenty of rigorous controlled studies that look at higher doses of physical activity, 300 minutes a week, or more, find that they are effective losing for helping people lose weight, but not fast and not large quantities. So, you're never going to lose a lot of weight really fast by exercising. It's just not going to happen because, you know, a cheeseburger has, what, you know, 800, 900 calories. You have to run, you know, 15 kilometers to lose that to burn the same number of calories. You're going to be hungry afterwards too, so you're going to make some of that back. You have compensation. So, so physical activity is a is actually, there's just no way around it. You have to be a flat earth or not to argue this way, but there, you know, there physical activity can help you lose weight, but it's not going to help you lose a lot of weight fast and not at the low doses that often are prescribed.
然而，许多严格的对照研究发现，进行更高剂量的体育活动，每周300分钟或更多，能够帮助人们减肥，但减肥速度不快，减肥量也不大。所以，通过锻炼是无法快速减掉大量体重的。因为，你知道的，一份芝士汉堡大约含有800到900卡路里。你需要跑大约15公里才能消耗相同数量的卡路里。而且之后你会感到饥饿，所以你会重新摄入一部分热量。这种补偿是无法避免的。所以，体育活动实际上是无法绕过的。你不需要成为一个反对者来争辩这个观点，但通常所推荐的低剂量体育活动是无法帮助你快速减肥的。
But the one thing that we do agree on, and I think this would not be controversial, is that physical activity is really important for helping people prevent themselves from gaining weight or after a diet from regaining weight.
但是我们确实一致认同的一件事情，我认为这不会引起争议，那就是体育锻炼对帮助人们防止体重增加或者在节食后避免体重增长非常重要。
There are many, many studies which show this. One of my favorite was a study that was done in Boston on policemen. You know, policemen are kind of a reputation for, you know, having too many donuts and being overweight, right? And Boston is no exception. So, they did this great study at Boston University, right, across the across the river, where they got a bunch of policemen on a diet, a really severe diet, the policemen all lost weight.
有很多研究都显示了这一点。我最喜欢的一项研究是在波士顿对警察进行的。你知道，警察一直以来都有吃太多甜甜圈和超重的名声，对吧？而波士顿也不例外。所以，他们在波士顿大学进行了一项很棒的研究，对饮食进行了严格限制的一组警察，结果发现他们都减肥成功。
But some of the policemen were, had to diet and exercise, some just dieted alone. And as you might imagine, the ones who dieted plus exercise lost a little bit more weight, not a lot, just a little. But, and then they tracked them from months afterwards, because most people after a diet, the weight comes just crashing back, right? The policemen who's kept exercising, even after the diet was over and they went back to eating whatever the hell they wanted, donuts, whatever, they're the ones who kept the weight off. But the ones who didn't exercise, the weight came crashing back.
一些警察需要节食和锻炼，而另一些只进行节食。正如你想象的那样，那些既节食又锻炼的人减掉了更多的体重，不多，只是一点点而已。然后他们还进行了几个月的追踪，因为大多数人在节食后，体重会迅速反弹，对吧？那些在节食结束后仍然坚持锻炼的警察，即使他们恢复了随便吃任何东西，如甜甜圈等，他们成功地保持了体重。但那些没有进行锻炼的人，体重又重新反弹了。
Another good example would be the, have you seen the TV show The Biggest Loser? Yes, where people are going to lose weight. Yeah, so there's a crazy show, right? These people, you know, this is like totally unhealthy. They were confined to a ranch in Malibu and these guys, these people lost ridiculous amounts of weight. A guy named Kevin Hall at the National Institute of Health studied them for years afterwards and looked at and most of them regained a lot of the weight that they lost. And there was one person on the show who did not. And that was the person who kept exercising. And that's, you know, just yet more weights have one data point. But there's a lot of lots of evidence to show that physical activity, what its other important benefit when it comes to weight is, is preventing weight gain or weight regain.
另一个很好的例子就是你看过电视节目《最大的输家》吗？是的，就是那个人们要减肥的节目。对，所以这是个疯狂的节目，对吧？这些人，你知道，这完全不健康。他们被关在马里布的一个农场里，这些人失去了惊人的体重。美国国立卫生研究院的一位名叫凯文·霍尔（Kevin Hall）的人在接下来的几年里对他们进行了研究，并发现他们中的大多数人都重新回到了之前的体重。节目中只有一个人没有重新增重。那个人就是坚持继续运动的人。这只是一个数据点，但有很多证据表明体力活动在控制体重方面的另一个重要好处是防止体重增加或重新增加。
When we talk about dieting, we talk about exercise or diet, exercise or diet. Like, why is it an or? I mean, why isn't it exercise and diet? Diet is, of course, the bedrock for weight loss. But exercise also plays an important role and should be part of the mix.
当我们谈论节食时，我们常常提到运动或饮食，运动或饮食。为什么要用“或”呢？我的意思是，为什么不是“运动和饮食”呢？饮食当然是减重的基石。但是运动也起着重要的作用，应该成为整个计划的一部分。
On the police example, in the biggest loser example, I can relate in the sense that when I exercise, when I go through the moments of my life where I'm most committed to exercise, I'm also most committed to my diet. Yeah. Because I, if I go to the gym, I will not then leave the gym and have a donut or a pizza. Absolutely not. It seems like wasting the effort. So if you look at the sort of correlation between the moments in my life, we're a healthiest, they're also the moments in my life where I'm most, most focused on the gym. And I noticed there was a couple of months ago, had a bit of a motivation slump. And it's just a little WhatsApp group, but coasted down the bottom of the leaderboard for a couple months on, just like surviving every month by one. And through those moments, my motivation in the gym had gone down and my diet had gone down. The minute I managed to get in the gym and do a big workout, the same day my diet came back. Yeah, of course. Right. And they co-very, right?
就以警察的例子为例，最大的失败者的例子中，我可以理解这种感觉，即当我运动时，当我度过生活中最专注于锻炼的时刻时，我对饮食也最专注。是的，因为如果我去健身房，我就不会离开健身房然后吃一个甜甜圈或披萨。绝对不会，因为这似乎是在浪费努力。所以如果你看看我生活中最健康时刻和我最专注于健身的时刻之间的关联，你会发现它们是一致的。我注意到几个月前我有一点动力低谷。它只是一个小的WhatsApp群组，但我在排行榜底部度过了几个月的时间，每个月都只是勉强通过。在那些时刻，我在健身房的动力下降了，我的饮食也下降了。我只要设法去健身房做一次大型锻炼，同一天我的饮食就会恢复。是的，当然。它们是相互影响的。
And that's one of the reasons why when people do big studies of, you know, what, you know, you can look at what people die of, right? What's on the death certificate? You know, cancer, heart disease, whatever, heart attack. And then you look at what caused the cancer, what caused the heart disease. When people try to do that, it's almost impossible to separate diet and exercise because people who tend to eat better also tend to exercise more. They're both in our modern upside-down, chopsy-turvy world. They're both markers of privilege. People have money to go to the gym, also have money to buy healthy foods. And people who care about their physical activity also tend to care about their diet. So at that level, they're very hard to separate.
这就是为什么当人们进行大规模研究时，你知道，你可以看看人们死于什么，对吧？死亡证明上写着什么？癌症、心脏病，无论是心脏病发作还是其他。然后你看看是什么导致了癌症，是什么导致了心脏病。当人们试图这样做的时候，几乎不可能区分饮食和运动，因为倾向于饮食更好的人往往也更倾向于更多的运动。在我们现代颠倒，颠倒了的世界中，这两者都是特权的标志。有钱去健身房的人也有钱购买健康食品。而关心自己的身体活动的人也往往关心自己的饮食。所以从这个层面上讲，很难将它们分开。
However, if you're studying a particular component of a system in a randomized controlled trial in a lab, you can separate them out. And so we know that they have independent and also interactive effects.
然而，如果你在实验室里进行随机对照试验时研究系统的特定组成部分，你可以将它们分开。因此我们知道它们具有独立和互动的效果。
What is the most important thing we haven't talked about, Daniel? I think the most important thing is that we need to be compassionate towards each other. I mean, there's so much shaming and blaming and prescriptions and, you know, you know, the reason I entitled the book exercise is that people, we make people feel exercised about exercise. We make them feel uncomfortable and, and confident and shamed and, and you know, you and I are having this conversation, but I can tell that you take, you know, you're, I mean, I know I've listened to enough of your podcast, you care about your health and you care about diet, you care about exercise. And people may look at you and think, gosh, I wish I was like him, but it's just not me, you know, I can't, I'm not, I'm not there, right?
丹尼尔，我们还没有讨论过最重要的事情是什么？我认为最重要的是我们需要彼此怀有同情心。我的意思是，有太多指责和责备和规定，你知道的，你知道的，我给这本书起名字是因为人们对运动感到烦恼。我们让他们感到不舒服、不自信、感到羞耻，你和我正在进行这个对话，但我可以看出你非常关心你的健康、饮食和锻炼。人们可能看着你并想，天哪，我希望我像他一样，但这只是不适合我的，你知道吗？
And they may feel put off by our conversation. And I think that so often these discussions make people feel, feel bad about what they're doing. And I, and I, and I, and I think that what we need to emphasize is that if you put a, you know, if you put a chocolate cake and an apple in front of me here, I would want to eat the chocolate cake. And it would, I might eat the apple only because you're there. But if you weren't there, I would eat the chocolate cake, right?
他们可能对我们的对话感到厌烦。我觉得这些讨论经常让人觉得自己做得很糟糕。我觉得我们需要强调的是，如果在我面前放一个巧克力蛋糕和一个苹果，我会想吃巧克力蛋糕。只有因为有你在，我可能会吃苹果。但如果没有你，我会选择吃巧克力蛋糕，对吧？
And, and when I'm in the, in the, in my building at Harvard, my office is on the fifth floor of this old Victorian building. Every single day, I want to take the elevator. And the only reason I take the stairs is that if anybody catches me in the elevator, I'll be a hypocrite. It's not that I don't want to take the elevator. I do want to take the elevator, right? I guess you guys say lift, right? And, and, and we make people feel bad for taking the elevator, right? They shouldn't feel bad. It's an instinct. And so I think we have to figure out ways to help people without shaming them and without blaming them and without bragging and whatever, you know, you know, talking about, you know, the marathon they ran or this, that or the other make them feel less uncomfortable about the topic and realize that you don't have to swim the English Channel or run a marathon or, you know, join your WhatsApp group and do crazy hit workouts every day. By the way, you don't need to do hit workouts every day to get the benefit. Instead, just, you know, taking the stairs in your building every day, anything is better than nothing and you'll get benefits from that. And I hope that that's the message that needs to get out, right? Anything is better than nothing. And if you can get started on that, on that, on that pathway, then it'll, it'll eventually become self rewarding.
在哈佛大学的时候，我的办公室位于一个老式的维多利亚建筑的五楼。每天，我都想搭乘电梯。唯一让我选择走楼梯的原因是，如果有人在电梯里看到我，我就会成为伪君子。并不是说我不想坐电梯，确实想坐电梯，对吧？我猜你们说的是lift，对吧？我们让人们为搭电梯感到愧疚，对吧？他们不应该感到愧疚。这是本能。所以我认为我们必须搞清楚如何在不羞辱他们、不责备他们、不炫耀以及其他方面的交流中，让人们对这个话题感到不那么不舒服，并认识到你不需要游过英吉利海峡或跑步马拉松，或加入你们的WhatsApp群组，每天做疯狂的高强度训练。顺便说一下，你不需要每天做高强度训练才能获得好处。相反，每天走楼梯或者任何微小的努力都比什么都不做要好，你会从中获益。希望这个信息能传达出去，对吧？任何小的努力都比什么都不做要好。如果你能开始这条道路，最终它会给你带来回报。
And that, and that leads me to the other topic that we didn't talk about, which is that the reward system, physical activity, you know, you and I, if we go for like, I'm really looking forward to my run to my morning in the park. I love running Central Park. It's one of the best places in the world around, right? A fantastic view from the top and it's just gorgeous, right? But when I run Central Park tomorrow, I'm going to get a big dopamine hit. I'm going to, my body is going to produce all this dopamine, which is the molecule that says, do that again, right? It's a reward.
这也将我引入到另一个我们没有谈论的话题，那就是奖励系统和身体活动。你知道的，如果你和我一起去，比如我非常期待在公园晨跑。我喜欢在中央公园跑步，那是世界上最好的地方之一，对不对？从顶上看风景真是太美了。但是，当我明天在中央公园跑步时，我将会受到巨大的多巴胺冲击。我的身体会产生大量的多巴胺，这是一种告诉我再次做同样事情的分子，对吧？它是一种奖励。
Gamblers get dopamine hits, right? People eat chocolate cake get a dopamine hit, right? But if I were unfit and overweight, I wouldn't get that dopamine hit. And so when people start exercising, they don't get the reward that people who are fit and, and custom to doing it get. And then they're made to feel bad. Like you didn't enjoy your run around Central Park. Well, it takes months, if not years, before you actually get that reward. And really? Yeah, because, because just like being overweight causes you to become insensitive to insulin, you become insensitive to all kinds of other hormones and neurotransmitters and dopamine is one of them. So, so it's not an instant, like benefit, right? It's hard. And so we need to be compassionate again towards people who are struggling to become fit and struggling to get their award. And also, if you're overweight and you run around Central Park, it's like, if I were carrying weights and running around Central Park, it'd be much harder, right? It's, you know, it's, it's challenging. And so we, once you get, you know, into that state, it's hard to get back to the state of activity. And so we, we need as a, as a society to, to help those folks rather than judge them.
赌徒会得到多巴胺刺激，对吗？吃巧克力蛋糕的人也会得到多巴胺刺激，对吗？但是如果我不健康又超重，我就不会得到那种多巴胺刺激。当人们开始锻炼时，他们没有得到那些习惯锻炼并且健康的人会得到的奖励。然后他们会感到自己不好。好像你并没有享受绕着中央公园跑步。但是，要真正获得那个奖励需要几个月甚至几年的时间。是的，因为就像超重会导致你对胰岛素不敏感一样，你也会对其他激素、神经递质以及多巴胺不敏感。所以，这不是一个即时的好处对吧？这是很难的。因此，我们需要再次对那些努力变得健康和赢得奖励的人有同情心。而且，如果你超重还在中央公园跑步，就像我拎着重物跑中央公园一样，会更加困难。这是具有挑战性的。一旦你陷入那种状态，就很难恢复到活跃的状态。因此，我们作为一个社会需要帮助这些人而不是评判他们。
Those folks that are struggling, and I was one of those folks that were struggling for many, many years, I would say to myself every year, pretty much all of my adult life that this was going to be the year that I'd get fit. I try all of these various different, you know, fad exercise things by all this stuff.
那些正在奋斗的人，我曾经就是其中之一，我奋斗了很多年。每年，几乎我成年的生活中，我都告诉自己，这一年我会变得健康。我试过各种不同的流行运动方法，买了一大堆东西。
I announced in 2017 that I was going to work out every single day. And that lasted for six months. And then I yo-yoed back out of that. It never stuck with me until 2020. And that's, I've been exercising six days a week since 2020, 82% of days.
我在2017年宣布我每天都要锻炼身体。然而，这个习惯只持续了六个月，之后又中断了。直到2020年，我才真正开始坚持。自2020年以来，我每周锻炼六天，占到了82%的时间。
And I reflect and try and diagnose how I went from someone who, what was it that changed? And if I can figure out what it was that changed at the most fundamental level in my mindset, or my attitude, or my life, or whatever it was, then I can help other people figure out that too, or at least give them more sound advice, or at least be more empathetic, whatever's required to help them. You know, and I have a platform here where I speak about exercise a lot in these things.
我反思并尝试分析自己是如何从一个怎样的人变成现在这样的？如果我能找出是什么在我思维、态度或者生活中最根本的层面发生了改变，那么我可以帮助别人找到答案，或者至少给予他们更明智的建议，或者至少更具同理心，以满足他们的需求。你知道，在这个平台上，我经常谈论锻炼这些事情。
So what's your suspicion? What's your suspicion and what it is that makes people go from being, you know, maybe having a negative opinion towards exercise, or their ability to be disciplined with it, to becoming an exerciseer? Do you know? I've, this is a question that obsesses me. In fact, we have a big project right now, a big grant to actually study this right now.
那么你怀疑什么呢？你怀疑什么，是什么让人们从对运动持有消极意见，或者对自己是否能够坚持运动抱有怀疑态度，变成积极进行锻炼的人呢？你知道吗？这个问题困扰着我。事实上，我们现在正在进行一个大型研究项目，申请到了一大笔经费来研究这个问题。
Because I, the more I study it, the more I think it's social. The more I think that, again, I think people are physically active, i.e. in our modern world exercise, for two reasons, when it's necessary or rewarding. And what makes it rewarding for most people is the social aspect.
因为我越是学习，就越认为这是社交性的。而我又越认为，人们在我们现代社会进行锻炼的原因主要有两个：一是必要，二是有回报。而大多数人认为有回报的原因就是社交方面。
And that social aspect can take many dimensions. It can be running with a group of friends. And, you know, you might want to go only a mile, but your friends convince you to run another mile, right? And you end up running two miles, right?
社交方面可以有很多不同的形式。比如和一群朋友一起跑步。你可能只想跑一英里，但是你的朋友劝说你再跑一英里，对吧？最后你就跑了两英里，对吧？
Or you're feeling bad and crappy, and your, you know, your friends help you do it. Or I'm a running buddy, right? And I often, you know, meet friends for early morning runs, and I can tell you that the evening before, it seems like a great idea to meet Aaron at 6 a.m. on the corner of Mass Ave and Lenean. The next morning at 6 a.m. I might have stayed in bread with my wife, you know.
或者说你感觉糟糕透顶，而你的朋友们帮助你度过了难关。或者说我是个跑步伴侣，对吧？然后我经常早晨和朋友们见面跑步，我可以告诉你们前一晚约定六点在Mass Ave和Lenean街角见Aaron似乎是个好主意。但第二天早上六点，我可能和妻子一起呆在床上了，你明白的。
I don't want to meet this nasty, smelly guy, you know, at 6 a.m. and the cold and dark. But I agree to meet him and out I go, right? Now I'm usually glad I did it afterwards. Or, you know, we can go on. There are other social ways in which, but dancing, right? I mean, nobody thinks of dancing as exercise, but it's exercise, right? So that's one important social dimension.
我不想在早上6点，在寒冷和黑暗中遇到那个可恶又臭的家伙，你懂的。但我同意去见他，于是就出发了，对吧？现在我通常很高兴事后这么做了。或者，你知道的，我们还可以继续。还有其他社交方式，比如跳舞，对吧？我是说，没有人把跳舞当做锻炼，但其实它是锻炼，对吧？所以这是一个重要的社交维度。
And the other one, though, is accountability. I describe in the book, I'm, there's a, there's a friend of mine in San Francisco who's struggling to, to, to exercise. So she signed up for a program, it says company called stick.com. I don't know if you've gone across it, where it's a commitment contract, where you send like $1,000 to them, and they keep it in a bank account.
另外一个重要的因素是责任感。我在书中描述了一个在旧金山的朋友，她一直为了锻炼而苦苦挣扎。所以她报名参加了一个叫做stick.com的公司的计划。我不知道你是否听说过它，这是一种承诺合同，你向该公司存入1000美元，他们会将其存在银行账户中。
They probably invested and make a lot of money on it too. But you set up a referee and, and you agree that I'm going to not smoke or this or that or the other, or in this case, exercise. And if you don't do it, and your referee is, you know, what, you know, keeping track of what you do, you get to choose something negative. So in her case, her husband is her referee, and if she doesn't walk, I can't remember what, by the way, every day she has to walk a certain number of miles.
他们可能投资了，并且也因此赚了很多钱。但是你设置了一个裁判，你同意我不会抽烟或做其他的事情，或者在这种情况下，进行锻炼。而如果你不去做，你的裁判就会，你知道的，记录下你所做的事情，你可以选择一些负面的东西。所以在她的情况下，她的丈夫就是她的裁判，如果她不走路，我记不住是多少，顺便说一句，每天她必须走一定的距离。
Her husband will, will tell her and, and, or tell the website, and it'll send $50 to the NRA that week. Oh my God. And she hates the NRA with a burning passion. What is the any right national rifle association? They're the people who are trying to prevent gun control legislation in the United States, and they have effectively prevented gun control legislation in the United States, which is now kills more children than cars in the United States.
她的丈夫将会告诉她，或告诉网站，然后网站会在那个星期捐赠50美元给美国国家步枪协会（NRA）。天啊，她非常憎恨NRA。什么是任何正确的国家步枪协会？他们是那些试图阻止美国的枪支控制立法的人，而且他们成功地阻止了美国的枪支控制立法，这导致如今在美国，因枪支死亡的儿童数量超过了车祸导致的儿童死亡数量。
So if she doesn't exercise, sorry, she doesn't do it then, then, then money goes to this organization that she hates. So this is a stick, if there ever was one, as opposed to a carrot. And I don't think she's every time I see her ask her, you know, you kept up the walk, he says, Oh, no, the NRA hasn't gotten the penny. Right. So for her, it's been very effective.
所以如果她不锻炼，对不起，她就不去做，钱就会流向这个她讨厌的组织。所以这就是一种威胁，如同胡萝卜相反。每次我看到她时，我都问她，你坚持锻炼了吗，她说，哦，没有，NRA（美国全国步枪协会）没得到一分钱。所以对她来说，这非常有效。
So it's, she's made a commitment contract that that stings, right? That really hurts. Now, I think I might be a little on the extreme side and I wouldn't recommend that to everybody. But, but she's accountable, right? She's made herself accountable in some ways.
所以，她签署了一份承诺合同，那使她感到痛苦，对吧？那真的很伤人。现在，我认为我可能有点过分，我不会向每个人推荐这样做。但是，但她负有责任，对吧？她以某种方式使自己负有责任。
And I think people can find ways to make themselves accountable to a friend, a loved one, a parent, you know, priest who knows what, right? You might, or, or hire a trainer. That's, I mean, that's kind of what a trainer does, makes you accountable, right?
我认为人们可以找到办法使自己对朋友、亲人、父母，甚至神父等有所负责。你可能会雇佣一个教练。嗯，就像教练的职责一样，他们能使你有责任感，对吧？
And I think so, so those are, again, social ways to help people be more physically active. So I think there are multiple ways of doing that. And I suspect that is going to be the most effective sort of set of tools that will help people.
我认为，所以那些又是一种社交方式来帮助人们更积极地参与体育活动。所以我认为有多种方法可以做到这一点。而且我怀疑这将是最有效的一系列工具，可以帮助人们。
One thing I actually do is that on the screen saver of my phone, it has something that really inspires me. So I see it every day. And it's that reminder for me, which reinforces my, my why across my life. It's actually my home screen on my iPhone is actually a bit of a mood board for me.
我做的一件事就是在我的手机屏幕保护程序上放置一些真正激励我内心的东西。因此我每天都能看到它。这一提醒对我来说很重要，它在我的生活中巩固了我的动力。实际上，我的iPhone主屏幕对我来说更像是一块情绪墙。
We have a closing tradition on this podcast, where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to leave it for. And I don't get to see it until I open the book. The question is, what is one aspect or feature of your life that causes you the most friction slash discomfort? And how can you change or fix it?
在这个播客节目中，我们有一个闭幕传统，就是最后一个嘉宾留下一个问题给下一个嘉宾，但他们并不知道是留给谁。我在打开书之前都不知道这个问题是什么。问题是，你生活中的哪个方面或特征给你带来了最多的摩擦或不适？你如何去改变或修复它呢？
I would say it's my tendency to compare myself to others. I know, you know, life is short, life is precious. We're all experiments of one. And when I think about when I when I engage in that, oh, so and so has such and such, that's a really bad habit. It's a really bad trait. It never leads anywhere good. It only leads towards either either I think about how I have more of something than somebody else that leads to, I think, unhealthy feelings of pride, or feelings of jealousy, you know, so and so has this award or such and such. And that's kind of pernicious. So I think that's a bad habit that I work hard to overcome. Because it changes your expectations of yourself and that takes steals happiness. It steals happiness. Yeah. It steals happiness.
我想说，我有一种倾向，总是拿自己和别人比较。我知道，你也知道，生命是短暂的，生命是珍贵的。我们每个人都是独特的实验品。当我思考并陷入这种情绪时，噢，某某拥有什么，那真的是一个很糟糕的习惯。这是一个很糟糕的特征。它永远不会带来任何好处。它只会导致我想着自己拥有比别人更多的东西，这会引发不健康的自豪感或嫉妒之情，你懂的，某某获得了某个奖项之类的。这是一种有害的循环。所以我一直努力克服这个坏习惯。因为这会改变你对自己的期望，从而抢走了幸福感。是的，它偷走了幸福感。
Thank you for the work you do, Daniel. Very important, very, very important and increasingly important, I think, when we look at the health outcomes, especially here in the United States of people, I mean, you actually share a number of them in the book, which I didn't, we didn't really go into, but they're just horrifying. Yeah, scary out there. Especially as it relates to exercise. There was one in particular that I wrote down because it horrified me. It was just all the stats around the current health care. Only 50% of Americans ever exercise. Really? Ever. Ever. And only 20% meet those very minimal World Health Organization standards. We're a nation of couch potatoes and the rest of the world is headed our way. But not if they get this book. Because I think it is a real perspective changer and it's a real eye-opener and it's a necessary one.
感谢你的工作，丹尼尔。我认为你所做的工作非常重要，非常非常重要，并且越来越重要，尤其是当我们看到人们的健康状况，尤其是在美国的情况时。我是说，你在书中分享了很多这方面的数据，虽然我们没有深入探讨，但那些数据真的让人恐惧。是的，外面的情况真可怕。特别是与锻炼有关的情况。我记下了一个尤其让我感到恐惧的数据。据统计，只有50%的美国人进行过锻炼。真的吗？从未进行过。从未。只有20%的人达到了非常低的世界卫生组织标准。我们是一个宅男国家，而其他国家正在向我们看齐。但如果他们读了这本书，情况就会不同了。因为我认为这本书能够改变人们的观念，让他们有所觉悟，这是必要的。
So thank you so much for writing it. You're fantastic at what you do. And I'm now a huge fan of your work after delving in deeper and deeper and deeper. So I can't wait to see what you do next.
非常感谢你写这个。你在你所做的事情上太棒了。在深入了解后，我现在成了你的超级粉丝。所以我迫不及待地想看看你接下来会做什么。
Well, thank you. And I recommend everyone to go get this book. Exercised. Because yeah, I thought I knew a lot about exercise, but from reading that and having that window into hunter-gatherer ancestors and tribes and other cultures, it really that whole idea of a mismatch life. How mismatched my life is in so many fundamental ways. From diet to exercise to socializing. And these kind of books helped to realign.
好的，谢谢你。我推荐每个人都去阅读这本书。从读了这本书之后，我意识到自己对运动的了解远远不够。通过了解狩猎采集祖先、部落和其他文化，我明白了自己的生活在很多根本性方面是有多么不协调。从饮食到锻炼再到社交，我的生活都存在着极大的差异。这类书籍有助于重新调整我自己。
Well, thank you. Although it seems that you're doing a pretty good job. I'm trying. I think we're so far from being human though that there's still a long way to go for all of us.
嗯，谢谢你。虽然看起来你做得很好。我在努力。不过我觉得我们离成为真正的人类还有很长的路要走，对我们所有人来说，还有很长的路要走。
So thank you Daniel.
非常感谢你，丹尼尔。
Quick one. As you know, Airbnb are a splinter of this podcast. And I was actually in an Airbnb last weekend when me and my friends had a reunion in New York. And it's from staying in Airbnb's over the years that led me to start hosting my own place. I know friends of mine who actually Airbnb their own place in order to pay for the Airbnb they use when they're away on holiday, which is pretty smart. And maybe you stayed in Airbnb before and thought this is actually pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your entire place. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Whether you could use some extra money to cover your bills or something a little bit more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. And you can find out how much it's worth at Airbnb.co.uk slash host. Check it out. Find out how much your home is worth. And let me know what you think. you.
简单来说，这段话的意思是，Airbnb是一个播客的分支。我上周和朋友在纽约聚会时住在一个Airbnb上，多年来我也在Airbnb上住过，这让我开始做自己的Airbnb房东。我知道我的一些朋友在外出度假时将自己的房子列出Airbnb来支付他们自己在Airbnb上的住宿费，这真的很聪明。也许你之前也在Airbnb上住过，觉得这个做法很可行，也许我的房子也可以做成一个Airbnb。可以从一个空闲房间或整个房子开始，你可能是潜在的Airbnb房东，你的家可能比你想象中的更有价值。你可以在Airbnb.co.uk/host网站上了解你的房子价值有多少。去看看吧，了解一下你的房子 worth 多少，然后告诉我你的想法。