Elon Musk on Advertisers, Trust and the “Wild Storm” in His Mind | DealBook Summit 2023 - YouTube
发布时间 2023-11-30 04:06:38 来源
中英文字稿 
. . . . . . Please welcome Andrew Rothsorkin and his guest, CEO of Tesla, CEO of SpaceX, Chief Engineer and CTO of X, Elon Musk. Good evening, everybody. Thank you so much for being with us throughout the day. And I couldn't be more pleased to sit with Elon Musk as our final interview of this remarkable time we've all had together.
大家晚上好。非常感谢大家一整天以来一直陪伴我们。我非常荣幸能够与特斯拉的首席执行官、SpaceX的首席执行官、X公司的首席工程师和首席技术官埃隆·马斯克进行最后一次采访，这段时间我们一起度过的时光真是令人难忘。
He doesn't need much of an introduction, but I want to say a couple of things. He's the richest person in the world. He very well be the most consequential individual in the world right now. He runs the most innovative companies in the world, Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink, which is part of that, Neuralink, the boring company, X and his X.ai. And he's disrupted each of these lanes. He's moved to breakneck speeds, but he's faced this form of controversy in the process. He joins us today following a visit, as you all know so well, and we discussed earlier on Monday to Israel, where he met with the Prime Minister there and the President of Israel. And we're going to talk about everything. And my hope is that we can talk about how he thinks about his influence, about his power, about all of it. And we're going to talk about innovation and everything else.
他不需要太多介绍，但我想说几句。他是世界上最富有的人。他可能是目前世界上最具影响力的人。他经营着世界上最具创新力的公司，包括特斯拉、SpaceX、Starlink（其中一部分）、Neuralink、The Boring Company、X和X.ai。他在每个领域都引起了颠覆性的变化。他以惊人的速度前进，但在这个过程中也面临了各种争议。他今天加入我们，你们都很了解，我们在周一早些时候讨论过，他参观了以色列，并与该国总理和总统会面。我们将谈论一切。我希望我们能谈谈他对自己的影响力、权力以及其他所有事情的看法。我们还将谈论创新和其他方面的话题。
I want to say just two other things real quick. We met each other for the first time 16 years ago. Yes, like that. It's been a long time. And all those kids were three. When we first met, I think you were just about to deliver your first Roadster. I don't think you had yet. Larry Page was still waiting to get like 2007, 2008. And I remember going back to the newsroom and saying, I think I just met the next Steve Jobs. And I'm going to hold to that. I'm going to hold to that. But a lot has happened between when I first met you and now, you came to deal with. It's been boring, that's for sure. I'm actually taking a guy I drove at a boring company.
我只想说两个其他的事情。我们第一次见面是在16年前。是的，就是那样。时间过得很快。当我们第一次见面时，我记得你刚要交付你的第一辆Roadster。我想那时你还没交付。Larry Page还在等到2007年或2008年。我记得回到新闻编辑室时，我说我可能刚遇到了下一个 Steve Jobs。我会一直坚持这个看法。但在我第一次见到你和现在之间发生了很多事情，你经历了很多。那段时间过得挺无聊的，确实如此。我还去过你在一家无聊公司工作的地方。
2012, you came to deal with book and sat on this stage and we're thrilled to have you back. But there's been so much that's happened between now and then, and there's been so much that's happened in the past week, week and a half. And a lot of folks, and I want to tell you this, a lot of folks called me up and said, you're really going to host Elon Musk here. Can you believe what he just said on Twitter? On X. On X. Yeah, yeah. No idea what this Twitter is saying since you're talking about. Should you platform him? That's what they said. Yeah. Should you platform? And then I said that I think that it's our role and I know you have issues with journalists. I have a platform. I know you have issues with journalists oftentimes, but I said it's our role to have conversations and to inquire and to, and sometimes even to interrogate ideas. And that's, I'm hoping we can do that.
2012年，你来参与书籍交流，在这个舞台上坐下来，我们十分高兴你能回来。但是从那时到现在，发生了很多事情，过去一周到一周半也发生了很多事情。有很多人打电话给我，说你真的要在这里承办埃隆·马斯克吗？你能相信他在Twitter上说了什么吗？关于某某事情。是的，是的。我对Twitter上说的东西一无所知，因为你在谈论的是什么。你应该给他提供平台吗？这就是他们说的。是的。我们应该给予平台吗？然后我说，我认为我们的角色是进行对话、探究和甚至审问思想。我希望我们能做到这一点。
So I want to start just so we can begin this conversation and just level set. Take us through everything that happened if you could. Everything. No, over the past week and a half. How long have you got? We've got the time. Okay. You send out a post or X or a tweet. Yeah, post whatever. Yeah. As.
所以我想开始，这样我们就可以开始这次对话并达成共识。如果你能的话，请向我们描述发生的一切。每件事情都包括进去。不，只包括过去的一周半的事情。你有多长时间？我们有时间。好的。你发布了一个帖子或者 X 或者一条推文。是的，任何一种发布方式都可以。
I'm trying to say like when things were just 140 characters that made sense of calling a tweet because it's like a little bit of chirping. But when you know, the point of which you put like three hour videos on it's like it's very long tweet. So here we are. This is more descriptive I think. And at some point I don't know where you were. But you write in responding to another tweet. Yeah. This is the actual truth. And it set off a firestorm of criticism all the way to the White House. Right. And then you make this trip to Israel. We have advertisers who've left the platform. People calling it. Well, the trip to Israel is independent of, it wasn't some like apology tour. I want to be clear. That was. Let's talk about that. But just take us back to the moment at which you write that. The trip to Israel is an independent of it. Okay. It wasn't like in response to that at all. Well, let's do it. We'll do Israel is a small.
我想说的是，当事情只有140个字符的时候，我们称之为推特，因为它就像是一点点的鸟叫声，有点像是鸟儿在唧唧喳喳地叫。但是你知道，当你开始上传三个小时的视频时，就像是一个非常长的推特。所以我们现在就在这里。我觉得这样更具描述性。在某个时刻，我不知道你在哪里，但你正在回复另一个推特。是的。这是实际的真相。它引发了一场批评风暴，一直到白宫。是的。然后你去了以色列旅行。我们有一些广告商离开了平台。有人称之为……好吧，去以色列旅行与此无关，它不是什么道歉之旅。我想要澄清这一点。我们来谈谈这个。但是让我们回到你写下那句话的那个时刻。去以色列旅行与此无关。好吧。这不是对那个的回应。那我们继续。我们来谈谈以色列，它是个小国家。
And I have no problem being hated by the way. I hear it away. Well, but you know what? Let's go straight to that then for a second.
Sure. Because there is an idea and you could say that. I think it's a real weakness to want to be liked. A real weakness. I do not have that.
Let me ask you this then. There's a difference between saying I don't care if anyone likes me or they hate me. But given your power and given what you have amassed and the importance you have. I would think you want to be trusted.
I would think maybe you don't need to be liked or hated. But trusted matters. If X is going to become a financial platform where people are going to put their money, where the government is going to give you money for rockets, where people are going to get into the cars, they need to ultimately decide that you are, they don't have to say that they love you. But that you are ultimately a decent and good human being.
Yes, I think I am. But I'm certainly not going to do some sort of tap dance to prove to people that I am.
So as for trust, I think we break that down in a few ways. If you want satellites sent to orbit reliably, SpaceX will do 80% of all master orbit this year. China will do 12% the rest of the world will do 8. That includes Boeing, Lockheed and everyone else. So the track record of the rocket is the best by far of anything.
You could hate my guts next. You could not trust me. It is relevant. The rocket track record speaks for itself.
顺便说一句，对于被人讨厌，我并没有任何问题。我早已听透了。不过，你知道吗？那么，让我们直接谈谈这个问题吧。
当然。因为有一个观点，你可以这么说。我认为渴望被喜欢是一种真正的弱点。一种真正的弱点。而我没有这种弱点。
那么我问你，说不在乎任何人是否喜欢或憎恶自己是一回事，但考虑到你的权力和你所积聚的以及你的重要性，我想你会希望受到信任。
我认为你可能不需要被喜欢或被憎恶。但信任是很重要的。如果X要成为一个人们将把钱投入其中的金融平台，政府将为你的火箭提供资金，人们将乘坐你的汽车，他们最终需要决定你是一个体面而善良的人。
是的，我认为我是。但我肯定不会为了向人们证明我是一个体面的人而跳舞。
所以，关于信任，我认为我们可以从几个方面来看。如果你想要可靠地发射卫星到轨道上，SpaceX今年将占据80%的市场份额。中国占据剩下的12%，其他国家占据8%。其中包括波音、洛克希德和其他所有公司。因此，火箭的过去纪录是最好的，无疑是最优秀的。
你下一步也可以憎恨我。你也可以不信任我。这是相关的。火箭的过去纪录说明了一切。
With respect to Tesla, we make the best cars. Whether you hate me like me or indifference, do you want the best car or do you not want the best car? So I will certainly not pander.
关于特斯拉公司，我们制造的是最优秀的汽车。无论你是讨厌我、喜欢我还是对我漠不关心，你是想要一辆最好的车，还是不想要一辆最好的车呢？所以，我绝对不会迎合他人。
And Jonathan, the only reason I'm here is because you are a friend. Like what was my speaking fee? You're not making any, first of all, I'm Andrew. Sorry. It's okay. Second of all, we've known for a very long time. I'm just talking.
约翰，我之所以在这里，是因为你是我的朋友。像我的讲话费是多少？首先你一分钱都没赚，我是安德鲁，不好意思。没关系。其次，我们认识很久了。我只是在说话而已。
Yes. And listen. You know. When I'm trying to illustrate it, sometimes I say the wrong thing. I think there are a lot of people who are tired. But let me go back.
No. You should hear the sketches that SNL wouldn't post, by the way. Those are really good. And I would say unfortunately or unfortunately whatever friendship we have, not great, we don't talk to you that much.
是的。然后听着，你知道的。当我试图阐述时，有时候我会说错话。我想有很多人都感到厌倦。但让我回到那个问题。
不。顺便说一下，你应该听一听那些《周六夜现场》不会发布的草稿，它们真的很好笑。而且我会说遗憾或不幸的是，不管我们有什么友谊，不是很好，我们并不怎么跟你交流。
But let me ask you this. True. That's true. Where am I? That doesn't return to all of the calls. Yeah. I'm here because you're a friend. Not because I'm being paid well because I need any validation or anything.
I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, well, I'm processes likeUnited States, precisely like, you're book.
但让我问你这个问题。没错，是真的。我在哪里？不是所有的电话都会回来。是的，我在这里是因为你是我的朋友，而不是因为我被高薪聘请或需要任何肯定之类的东西。
我只是，你知道的，我只是，你知道的，我只是，你知道的，我只是，你知道的，我只是...非常类似于美国，确切地说，就像你的书中所描述的那样。
What I like about somethingãoá? So that the way people live summernel, right? How would people live in, in America where they're even in small temper'ts? What there are people live in places like that. There's someone working in Amazon today calling you. that view.
我喜欢关于somethingãoá 的是什么呢？是人们在夏天居住的方式，对吗？那在美国，即使在小温度下，人们会怎样生活呢？在那样的地方有人居住吗？今天有个在亚马逊工作的人给你打电话，那个景象。
It was actually people who really are anti-Semites, who said, oh my goodness, go, go, Elon, this is fabulous. And that actually was the thing that really set me back. I said to myself, what's going on here? And I want to know how you felt about that in that moment when you saw all of this happening.
事实上，真正反犹太主义的人说，哦天哪，走吧，走吧，埃隆，这太棒了。这真的让我吃惊。我对自己说，这到底是怎么了？我想知道在那一刻当你看到这一切发生时，你是怎么感到的。
Yeah, first of all, I did clarify almost immediately what I meant. I would say that that was, you know, if I could go back and say, I should, in retrospect, not have replied to that particular person. And I should have written in greater length as to what I meant. I did subsequently clarify it in replies, but those terrifications were ignored by the media. And essentially, I handed a loaded gun to those who hate me. And arguably to those who are anti-Semitic, to, I shouldn't have thought that I'm quite sorry, that that is not, that was not my intention. So I did, you know, post on a primary timeline to be absolutely clear that I'm not anti-Semitic, and that I, in fact, if anything, am phyllis-Semitic. And the Tripte-Ejor was planned before any of that happened.
是的，首先，我几乎立即澄清了我的意思。我想说，如果我可以回过头来，我应该回答那个特定的人时，应该说，事后看来，我不应该那样回复。而且，我应该更详细地写出我的意思。我后来在回复中澄清了这一点，但是媒体却忽略了这些澄清。实际上，我给那些憎恨我和反犹太主义的人提供了一把已上膛的枪。我意识到我不应该这样想，我非常抱歉，那不是我的意图。所以我在一个主要的时间轴上发布了明确表示我不反犹太主义，实际上，如果有什么的话，我是亲犹太主义的。而且，Tripte-Ejor是在所有这些事情发生之前计划的。
It was nearly here and over there. Do you see this thing? You know what it is? I do because I actually followed your Tripte-Ejor.
它几乎在这里，又几乎在那里。你看到这个东西了吗？知道它是什么吗？我知道，因为我实际上跟着你的Tripte-Ejor。
Right. Why don't you tell everybody? This is, this says, says, bring them home. The hostages. It was given to me by the parents of one of the hostages. And I said I would wear it as long as there was a hostage story meeting. And I have.
好的，为什么你不告诉大家呢？这个是，上面写着，说着，把他们带回家。他们是被人质的父母给我送来的。我曾说过只要还有人质的故事会，我就会一直戴着它。而且我一直都有戴。
What was that trip like? And obviously, you know that there's a public perception that, and you're clarifying this now, but there's a public perception that that was part of a apology tour, if you will. That this had been said online. There was all of the criticism. There was advertisers leaving. We talked about Bob I got today. I hope they stop. You hope? Don't advertise. You don't want them to advertise? No. What do you mean? If somebody is going to try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go fuck yourself. But go fuck yourself. Is that clear? I hope it is. Hey Bob, if you're in the audience. Well, let me ask you then. That's how I feel. Go advertise. How do you think that about the economics of X?
那次旅行怎么样？显然，您应该知道公众对此有一种观念，您正在澄清，即这是道歉之旅的一部分。这种观念在网上被提及，引发了许多批评，并导致了广告商的撤离。我们今天讨论过Bob I，希望他们停止合作。你希望？不要再做广告了？这是什么意思？如果有人试图用广告来敲诈我，用金钱来敲诈我，他们可以去死。但是去死吧。这清楚吗？如果你在观众席上，Bob，我问你一下。好吧，那让我问你关于X经济方面的问题，你怎么看？
If part of the underlying model, at least today, and maybe it needs to shift, maybe the answer is it needs to shift away from advertising. If you believe that this is the one part of your business where you will be beholden to those who have this view, what do you do? Why? I understand that there's a reality too. Right? Yes. No, no. I mean, Linda Yacharino is right here and she's got to sell advertising. Absolutely. So, no, no, actually what this advertising boycott is going to do is it's going to kill the company. And do you think that the. And the whole world will know that those advertisers killed the company and we will document it in great detail. But those advertisers I imagine are going to say, they're going to say we didn't kill the company. Oh yeah? They're going to say. They're going to tell to earth. But they're going to say that you killed the company because you said these things and that they were inappropriate things and they didn't feel comfortable on the platform. Right? That's what they're going to say. And let's see how earth responds to that. So, okay, then this goes back to. Well, we'll both make our cases. Right. And we'll see what the outcome is. What are the economics of that for you? I mean, you have enormous resources so you can actually keep this company going for a very long time. Would you keep it going for a long time if there was no advertising? I mean, if the company fails because of an advertised boycott, it will fail because of an advertised boycott. And that will be what bankrupt the company and that's what everybody on earth will know.
如果广告是底层模型的一部分，至少是现在，也许需要进行转变，也许答案就是要摆脱广告。如果你相信这是你的业务中与持有这种观点的人相互依赖的部分，你会怎么做？为什么？我明白也存在现实。对吧？是的。不，不。我的意思是，Linda Yacharino就在这里，她必须销售广告。当然。所以，不，实际上这个广告抵制会让公司倒闭。你认为…而全世界都会知道是这些广告商导致了公司的倒闭，并且我们将详细记录下来。但是这些广告商可能会说，他们可能会说我们没有导致公司的倒闭。是吗？他们会这么说。他们会对地球这么说。但是他们会说是你说了这些不当言论导致了公司的倒闭，并且他们在这个平台上感觉不舒服。对吧？他们会这么说。让我们看看地球对此如何回应。所以，好吧，我们会对双方进行辩论。对。然后我们会看结果如何。对你来说，这对经济有什么影响？我的意思是，你拥有巨大的资源，所以你可以让这家公司长期运营。如果没有广告，你会让它长期运营吗？我的意思是，如果公司因为广告抵制而失败，那就是因为广告抵制导致了公司的倒闭。全世界的人都会知道这一点。
What do you think then of the. It's because it's back to the idea of trust though. Then it'll be gone. And it'll be gone because of an advertised boycott. But you recognize that some of those people are going to say that they didn't feel comfortable on the platform. And I just wonder and ask you and think about that for a second. Tell it to the judge. But the judge is going to be. The judge is the public. And you think that the public is going to say that Disney is making a mistake. Yes. And they're going to boycott Disney? They already are. Well, there are some that are for lots of different reasons. But you think that this is going to. That you have the. This goes to actually the interesting of power and leverage. Let the chips fall where they may. Let the chips fall where they may.
你对此怎么看呢？因为这又涉及到信任的问题。然后它就会消失。而且它会因为一次广告抵制而消失。但你应该认识到，其中一些人会说他们在平台上感到不舒服。我只是想问问你，思考一下。把这个告诉法官。但法官会是谁呢？法官就是公众。你认为公众会认为迪士尼在犯错误吗？是的。他们会抵制迪士尼吗？他们已经在抵制了。嗯，有些人有很多不同的原因。但你认为这将会......你拥有......这实际上涉及到权力和影响力的有趣之处。让事情自然发展吧，无论结果如何。
Can I ask why that is the approach? I ask it because you've been very. What very approach? Well, you've been very particular about the approach to Tesla. When you think about the engineering involved in that, the approach to SpaceX, the approach to some of the stuff you're doing with AI has been very specific. There's not a let the chips fall where they may approach to those businesses. I don't think. No, we focus on making the best products. And Tesla has gotten to where it's gotten with no advertising at all. I understand that. Tesla currently sells two twice as much in terms of electric vehicles as the rest of electric car makers in the United States combined. Tesla has done more to help the environment than all other companies combined. We're fair to say that therefore as a leader of the company, I've done more for the environment than anyone else, any single human on earth.
我可以问一下为什么采取这种方法吗？我之所以问是因为你一直都非常具体。非常具体的方法是指什么？嗯，你对于特斯拉的方法、SpaceX的方法，以及你在人工智能领域所做的一些事情都非常具体。对于这些业务，我们并不是采取任其自然的方式。我不这么认为。不，我们专注于做出最好的产品。特斯拉在没有任何广告的情况下取得了现在的成就。我了解。特斯拉目前的电动汽车销量已经超过了美国其他电动汽车制造商的销量总和两倍。特斯拉对环境的贡献超过了所有其他公司的总和。因此可以说作为公司的领导者，我为环境做的事情超过了地球上任何其他人。
How do you feel about that? How do I feel about that? Yeah, no, I'm asking you personally how you feel about that because we're talking about power and influence and. I'm saying, what I care about is the reality of goodness, not the perception of it. And what I see all over the place is people who care about looking good while doing evil. Fuck them.
你对这件事感觉如何？我对这件事感觉如何？是的，不是的，我是在询问你个人对此的感受，因为我们正在谈论权力和影响力的问题。我想说的是，我关心的是善良的真实，而不是对它的看法。而我看到到处都是在做邪恶事情时却很在乎表面形象的人。去他们的。
Okay. Let me ask you this because I think part of this, by the way, there's some people who said, look, owning X to begin with has just created problems. That you've created so many amazing things that are changing our world. And I know you want to make this fabulous town square free speech platform, but that unto itself that that has created such a distraction of all of these things. This is the conversation we're having. We're not focused. We're not talking at least yet and we will. And Tesla, you have your cyber truck deliveries tomorrow and everything else that you're doing. But is there any. Yes, there will be the biggest product launch of anything by far on earth this year. Is there any part of you though that just says, you know what? I just shouldn't have done this. Or maybe I should sell it or give it away or do something else with the X piece of it. Given the propensity for some of the things that you do and say on that platform to create these issues. Yeah. I've all the posts I've done on the platform. I think there might be 30,000 or something like that. Once in a while, I'll say something foolish. And I have. And I'll certainly put that comment, as you said, the Ash Truth among PEPs, one of the most foolish, if not the most foolish thing I've ever done on the platform. And I did do my best to clarify afterwards that I certainly don't mean anything and submit it in that.
好的。让我问你这个问题，因为我认为这部分是有问题的。有人说，拥有X本身就导致了问题。你创造了那么多改变我们世界的了不起的东西。我知道你想要打造一个绝佳的市政广场言论自由平台，但它本身已经成为了这些问题的源头。这就是我们正在进行的对话。我们没有专注，至少现在还没有，但我们会的。而且特斯拉，你明天还有你的电动卡车交付以及其他一切你正在做的事情。但是有吗？是的，这将是今年地球上迄今为止最大的产品发布。但是你心里有没有一部分想说，你知道吗？也许我不应该这样做。也许我应该卖掉它或者将其捐赠出去或者用其他方式处理X的一部分。鉴于你在该平台上做和说的一些事情容易引发这些问题。是的。在这个平台上我发过所有的帖子，我想可能有3万个左右。偶尔我会说些愚蠢的话。我确实是这样做了。我当然会把那条评论放在那里，就像你说的，真相之后的灰烬，这是我在该平台上做过的，如果不是最愚蠢的，也是其中最愚蠢的事情之一。我已经尽力在之后澄清，我肯定不是这个意思，也没有无条件接受那个。
The nature of the criticism was simply that the Jewish people have been persecuted for thousands of years. There is a natural affinity, therefore, for persecuted groups. This has led to the funding of organizations that essentially promote any persecuted group or any group with the perception of persecution. This includes radical Islamic groups. Everyone here has seen the massive demonstrations for Hamas in every major city in the West. That should be jarring. Well, a number of those organizations received funding from prominent people in the Jewish community. They didn't expect that to happen. But if you generically, without condition, sort of fund, if you find persecuted groups, in general, some of those persecuted groups, unfortunately, want your annihilation. And what I meant by that, when I subsequently clarified is that it's unwise to find organizations that support groups that want your annihilation. Is this coming across clearly? Yeah, it is.
这种批评的本质仅在于犹太人遭受了数千年的迫害。因此，对于受迫害的群体存在一种自然的亲近感。这导致了对那些本质上支持任何受迫害群体或具有被迫害感知的群体的组织的资助。其中包括激进的伊斯兰组织。在这里的每个主要城市，大家都见过支持哈马斯的大规模示威活动。这应该令人警醒。然而，一些组织收到了犹太社区杰出人物的资助。他们没有预料到会发生这种情况。但是如果你普遍地、无条件地资助那些受迫害的群体，不幸的是，其中一些受迫害的群体想要消灭你。而我的意思是，当我随后澄清时，支持那些想要消灭你的组织是不明智的。这样表达清楚了吗？是的，很清楚。
My question to you, though, I think logically, this makes a lot of sense. Is there any part of you? Just tell me what happens, though, once all of this happens. Let's say you fund a group, and that group supports Hamas who wants you to die. Perhaps you should not fund them. But you do appreciate that when you wade into these very delicate waters, at these very delicate times, that it can create a real, I mean, as it created, headlines for the past two weeks and economic impact. I'm just so curious what happens in your brain. When you see all this happening, are you sitting there going, oh, my God, I stepped in it. I wish I didn't do that. Are you saying, shoot them? I hate these people. Why are they after me? But all of that. Yeah, there's all of that. I mean, look, I'm sorry for that that that Twitter post. It was foolish of me. Of the 30,000, it might be literally the worst and dumbest post that I've ever done. And I try to, my best to clarify, six races on day. But at least, I think over time, it'll be obvious that, in fact, far from being anti-Semitic, I'm in fact, file a Semitic. And all the evidence in my track record would support that. There are people who say crazy things on X, as you know. Maybe you think they're crazy, maybe they're not. The aspiration for X is to be the global town square.
我对你的问题，尽管我觉得从逻辑上来说这是很有道理的。但你的内心是否有一部分？告诉我，当所有这一切发生时会发生什么。假设你资助了一个团体，而这个团体支持哈马斯，而哈马斯却想让你死。也许你不应该资助他们。但你应该意识到，当你涉足这些非常微妙的领域，尤其是在这些非常微妙的时刻时，它会带来真实的，我是说，就像过去两周一直在制造头条新闻和经济影响一样。我只是很好奇当你看到所有这些发生时，你的大脑是怎样思考的。你坐在那里说：“天哪，我可真是栽了跟头。真希望自己没做那件事。”你会说：“干掉他们。”我讨厌这些人。他们为什么追捧我？但所有这些。是的，所有这些都存在。我的意思是，对于那个推特帖子我感到抱歉。我太愚蠢了。在那30,000个推文中，那可能是我做过的最糟糕和最愚蠢的一条。我尽力澄清了六月份的比赛。但至少，我认为随着时间的推移，显而易见的是，事实上，我并不是反犹太主义者，而是支持犹太人的。我过去的记录都能证明这一点。正如你所知，有些人在某个平台上说些疯狂的话。也许你认为他们疯了，也许他们并没有。这个平台的愿景是成为全球公共讨论的广场。
Now, if you were to walk down to, let's say, Times Square. Do you occasionally hear people saying crazy things? Yes, but they don't have the megaphone. Right? And that's a conundrum. They can only say it to the 50 or 100 people that are sitting standing there in Times Square. They don't have a megaphone. I mean, look, the joke I used to make about old Twitter was it was like giving everyone in the psych ward a megaphone. So, you know, I'm aware that things can get promoted that are negative beyond the sort of circle of somebody simply screaming crazy things in Times Square, which happens all the time. You know, so it's actually pretty rare for something, frankly, that is hateful to be promoted. It's not that it never happens, but it's fairly rare. I mean, I would encourage people to look at, for those that use the system, when you look at the sort of the feed that you receive, how often is it hateful? And over time, has it gotten more or less hateful? And I would say that if you look at the X platform today, versus a year ago, I think it is actually much better.
现在，假设你走到时代广场。你会偶尔听到人们说些疯狂的话吗？是的，但他们没有扩音器。对吗？这是一个难题。他们只能对着时代广场上坐着或站着的50或100个人说。他们没有扩音器。我的意思是，我以前开的一个笑话是，过去的Twitter就像是给精神病院里的每个人一个扩音器。所以，你知道，我意识到负面内容可能会在不仅仅是在时代广场上尖叫的人的圈子外被推广，这种情况经常发生。你知道，因此，事实上，对于某些被宣传为仇恨言论的东西实际上相当罕见。并不是从来没有发生过，但是比较少见。我的意思是，我鼓励人们看看自己使用系统的时候，他们接收到的内容有多少是仇恨的？随着时间的推移，它变得更加仇恨了，还是减少了？我认为，如果你今天看看X平台，与一年前相比，它实际上要好得多。
I mean, what is your personal experience? Are you surprised? I'm just curious. I use the platform religiously. I admit to being an addict. You're right. And I use the for you. And I will say, now, the problem is, because I'm a journalist, I go looking for stuff. Well, I'm not awful. I'm just saying. And I also think the algorithm, for me personally, because I'm looking for stuff, also is feeding the other things. This is actually a challenge in that. Like some of those people will say, like, why is it showing me, you know, posts from this person that I hate? And then we're like, well, did you interact a lot with this person that you hate? Well, yes. Well, therefore, things that you want to interact more with this person that you hate. That's like a reasonable.
我的意思是，你个人的体验是什么？你感到惊讶吗？我只是好奇。我经常使用这个平台。我承认我上瘾了。你说得对。我使用"为你"部分。现在，问题是，因为我是记者，所以我在寻找信息。嗯，我没有那么糟糕。我只是说说而已。我也认为算法对我个人来说，在我寻找信息的过程中，也会提供其他东西。这实际上是一个挑战。就像一些人会说，为什么它会给我展示那个我讨厌的人的帖子？然后我们就会说，你是否与这个你讨厌的人有很多互动？是的。因此，你想更多地与这个你讨厌的人互动。这是合理的。
Well, let me ask this. You know, you kind of want to have an argument. When you tweet. Yeah. Do you ever post, let's say post. When you post. Listen, I'm open. Anyone can I come up with a better word? That would be great. When you post, though. But it's the least bad word I can think of as post.
好吧，让我问这个问题。你知道，有些时候你想要展开一场争论。当你发推时。是的。不过，你发推文的时候，你会不会发表，比方说发表观点。听着，我很开放。如果有更好的词可以用，那就太好了。不过在我能想到的词中，"发表"似乎是最不坏的一个。
When you post, though, are you trying to rile up either a base or an audience? Do you recognize the power you have in that? And also, by the way, not just rile up one version of. Yeah. But also rile down, which is to say, as I said, there are people who are demonstrably anti-Semitic on the site who. I get juby-boy things and all sorts of things that come my way. For a while, I thought I was Jewish, though, I'd get it too. But no, but the question is. My name is Supergirl. Do you ever think to yourself, you know what, I'm going to go online, and I'm going to say, these people, I condemn these people that are on my site, saying these things. Because I have said. You say I've condemned an assumption, but do you ever go. Yeah. I said I've. Literally, I literally posted, I condemn anti-Semitism in all its forms. Like, that is a literal post that I made. I mean, I'm like, listen, I can get out the thesaurus if you. You know, and we could.
当你发帖时，你是在试图激起某个支持者或观众的情绪吗？你意识到你在其中所具有的力量吗？而且，顺便说一下，并不仅是激起某一个版本的情绪，还可以平息情绪，也就是说，正如我所说，网站上存在明显的反犹太主义者，他们会发表各种攻击性的言论。有一段时间，我还以为自己是犹太人，因为我也会受到攻击。但是，问题是，我的名字是超人女孩。你有没有想过，你知道吗，我要上网，我要说，这些人，我谴责这些在我的网站上发表这些言论的人。因为我已经说过了。你说我谴责了一种假设，但你有没有想过。是的，我说过。真的，我确实发过帖子，谴责各种形式的反犹太主义。就是这样，我是说，我可以找出同义词库如果你。你知道，我们可以。
Let me ask you a different question. You composed it, I'll post it. Okay, let me ask you this. You were on a podcast about a month ago, and you said something that struck me, and it struck me as accurate, came out of your mouth. So hopefully it is. But I'm hoping we go deep on this. This goes through. I don't know, it's not me, and it's true. No, but you said my mind is a storm. I don't think most people would want to be me. They may think they want to be me, but they don't know. They don't understand. What did you mean by that? Your mind being a storm. I have known you for quite some time. I think it is a bit of a storm.
让我问你一个不同的问题。你创作了它，我会发布出来。好吧，让我问你这个问题。大约一个月前你参加了一个播客，你说了一些让我感到震撼的话，听起来很准确，直接从你嘴里说出来的。所以我希望我们能深入探讨这个问题。这个问题经历了。我不知道，它不是我，但它是真实的。不过，你说过我的思想就像一场风暴。我觉得大多数人不愿意成为我。他们可能认为他们想成为我，但他们不懂。他们不明白。你说的“思想像一场风暴”是什么意思？我认识你已经有一段时间了，我认为你的思想确实有些混乱。
Yes. Yeah, I mean, it is much as a weather metaphor makes sense. My mind often feels like a very wild storm. I mean, I have thought enough ideas. I have more ideas than I could possibly execute. So I have no shortage of ideas. Innovation is not the problem. Execution is the problem. I've got a million ideas. I mean, I've got an entire design for an electric supersonic vertical takeoff jet, but I just can't do that as well. I've had that for 10 years. I've had those million things.
是的，我的意思是，这个天气隐喻非常贴切。我的思绪经常如同一场狂暴的风暴。我的头脑里有无数想法。我拥有的想法超过我能够实现的数量。所以我不缺乏创新的想法。问题在于执行。我有太多的想法了。我的意思是，我设计了一款完整的垂直起飞电子超音速飞机，但我无法把它实现。我已经有这个想法十年了。我已经有了那"百万"个想法。
Did you storm a happy storm? No. It's not a happy storm. So, tell us about that. Because I think that that actually, when people try to really understand you, I think that there's a lot of this comes from some other place. And I want to talk about that. What do you think that is? Was she really thinking like a psychiatrist catch or something? I think to some degree, I was born this way, but then I was amplified by a difficult childhood, frankly. But I can remember even in happy moments when I was a kid, that it just feels like there's just a a rage of forces in my mind constantly. Now, this, you know, productively manifests itself in technology and building things for the most part. And I think on balance, the output has been very productive. I think the results, as we discussed earlier with SpaceX, Tesla, PayPal, which is still going today, the first internet company that I started.
你有没有遭遇过一次幸福的风暴？不, 这并不是一次幸福的风暴。所以，告诉我们一下。因为我认为当人们试图真正理解你的时候，我认为这背后有很多东西来自其他地方。我想谈谈这个。你认为那是什么原因？她真的像一个捕捉心理学家一样在思考吗？我认为在某种程度上，我生来就是这样，但是困难的童年让我更加突出。但我记得，即使在我小时候的快乐时刻，我的脑海中似乎也有一股不断的愤怒力量。现在，这种情绪在技术上和建造东西中得到了积极的表现。我认为总体上，产出是非常有成效的。正如我们之前讨论的，SpaceX、特斯拉和今天仍在运营的PayPal，这是我创办的第一家互联网公司。
In fact, the first internet company I started to do was funded by New York Times company, Hurst Night Ritter. And we wrote some of the software for the New York Times website. And we helped bring online several hundred newspapers that previously were only in print. Now, this is in the 90s, which at this point is like, I'm like a grandpa, basically. You know, the 90s and internet feels like a pre-cambrian era when there were only sponges. So anyway, so, you know, I feel like a lot of productive things have been done. And you can also look at Tesla as being through many companies in one. Like our supercharging network is, if it were, if the Tesla supercharging network were its own company, it would be a fortune 500 company by itself. Just the supercharging system. We also make the cells. We build the power electronics and the powertrain for scratch. We have the most innovative structural design, the largest castings ever used. We have the best manufacturing technology, a Tesla, better manufacturing technology than companies that have been doing it for a hundred years.
事实上，我开始创办的第一家互联网公司是由纽约时报公司和Hurst Night Ritter公司资助的。我们为纽约时报网站编写了一些软件，并帮助将数百家仅出版纸质报纸的报纸转移到了在线平台。现在，这还是在90年代，那个时候对我来说就像是进化论中只有海绵的前寒武纪时代一样。总之，我觉得做了很多有成效的事情。你也可以把特斯拉看作是许多公司的合集。例如，如果特斯拉的超级充电网络是独立的公司，它本身就能成为财富500强公司。我们还自己制造电池，从零开始构建电力电子设备和动力系统。我们拥有最创新的结构设计，使用过最大的铸件。我们拥有比百年老企业还要先进的制造技术。
So these demons of the mind, for the most part, are honest to productive ends. It's Lymaz, because that doesn't mean that once in a while they, they go wrong. And this is a question I think a lot of people are always trying to figure out about not just you, but sometimes themselves. Meaning what is driving all of this? You're doing all of these things. Do you think that you would be as successful, whatever success is, if it wasn't being driven by some, I think that there's something you're trying to prove, either to yourself or to somebody, I don't know. We're all trying to prove something.
这些心灵的恶魔，大多数情况下都是为了有益的目的而诚实存在的。这是因为它就像是Lymaz一样，这并不意味着偶尔它们会出错。这是一个我认为很多人总是试图弄清楚的问题，不仅是关于你，有时也是关于他们自己。也就是说，是什么在推动这一切？你正在做所有这些事情。你认为如果没有某种驱动力，无论成功是什么，你会取得同样的成功吗？我认为你在尝试证明某件事，无论是向自己还是向某人。我们都在努力证明某些东西。
It's a proof of truth. It's my mother. I don't know. No, if I were to describe my philosophy, it is a philosophy of curiosity. I mean, I did have this existential crisis when I was around 12. About what's the meaning of life? Isn't it all pointless? Why not just commit suicide? Why exist? I read the religious texts. I read the philosophy books that, well, especially the German philosophy books made me quite depressed, frankly. I want you to not read Schopenhauer in each other as a teenager. But then I read Douglas Adams, who drives the Guide to the Galaxy, which is a book in philosophy in the form of humor.
这是一个真理的证明。那是我的母亲。我不知道。不过，如果要描述我的哲学，那就是一种好奇心的哲学。我的确在大约12岁时经历了这样的存在危机。关于生命的意义是什么？难道一切都毫无意义吗？为什么不自杀呢？为什么存在？我阅读了宗教文本，也阅读了哲学书籍，嗯，尤其是那些德国哲学书籍让我相当沮丧。我希望你们作为青少年时别像我一样阅读舒韦尔的著作。但后来我读到了道格拉斯·亚当斯的《银河系漫游指南》，这本书以幽默的形式探讨哲学问题。
The point that Adams was making there was that we don't actually know what questions to ask. That's why he said that the answer is 42. Like basically, it was the giant computer and it came up with the answer 42. But then to actually figure out what the question is, that's the actual hard part. I think this is generally true also in physics. At the point of which you can properly frame the question, the answer is actually the easy part. My motivation then was that, well, my life is finite. Really a flash in the pan on a galactic time scale. But if we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness, then we are better able to figure out what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe. And maybe we can find out the meaning of life or even what question to ask is. Where do we come from? Where are we going? Where are the aliens? Are there aliens? These questions, is there new physics to discover? There are real questions about dark matter and dark energy.
Adams在这里表达的意思是，我们实际上不知道要问什么问题。这就是他说答案是42的原因。基本上，那是一个巨型计算机，它给出了答案42。但是真正困难的是找出问题是什么。我认为这在物理学中也是普遍适用的。当你能够正确提出问题时，答案其实是很容易的部分。所以我的动机是，我的生命是有限的。从银河时间尺度来看，只是一瞬间。但是如果我们能够扩大意识的范围和规模，那么我们就能更好地找出关于宇宙之答案要问的问题。也许我们能够找到生命的意义，甚至是要问的问题是什么。我们来自哪里？我们将去往何方？外星人在哪里？是否存在外星人？这些问题，是否有新物理学可发现？关于暗物质和暗能量的问题是真实存在的。
The purpose of SpaceX is to extend life beyond Earth on a sustained basis. That we can at least pass one of the Fermi great filters, which is that of being a single planet civilization. If we are single planet civilization, then we are simply waiting around for some extinction event, whether that is man-made or natural. But if you are a single planet civilization, eventually you will, something will happen to that planet and you will die. If you are a multi-planet civilization, you will live much longer. Also, multi-planet civilization is, that's the natural stepping stone to being a multi-stellar civilization and being out there among the stars. This is not simply a defensive motivation, but it is also one that gives meaning, man's search for meaning.
SpaceX的目的是在持续的基础上将生命延伸到地球之外。我们至少可以通过费米大过滤器的一项，成为单一星球文明。如果我们只是一个星球文明，那么我们只是在等待某个灭绝事件的降临，无论是人为还是自然引起的。但是，如果你只是一个星球文明，迟早会有某种事件发生在这个星球上，然后你会死亡。如果你是一个多星球文明，你将活得更久。此外，多星球文明是成为多恒星文明并进入星际之间的自然阶梯。这不仅仅是出于防御的动机，而且也赋予了生命意义，是人类寻求意义的一部分。
Let me finish this philosophy point, even though it may seem rather esoteric, it may resonate with a few people. We must get past this Fermi filter of being a single planet civilization. And if we do, that will more likely to understand the nature of the universe and what questions to ask. If you believe in the philosophy of curiosity, then I think you should support this ambition. Being a multi-planet species is more than simply life insurance for life collectively. That's a defensive reason. But I think also that life has to be more than simply solving one sad problem after another. There have to be reasons where you wake up in the morning and you're happy to be alive. There have to be reasons that you have to say, why are you excited about the future? What gives you hope? If you aren't sure, ask your kids.
让我完成这个哲学论点，即使它可能看起来相当深奥，但它可能会引起一些人的共鸣。我们必须摆脱成为单一星球文明的费米过滤器。如果我们成功，就更有可能理解宇宙的本质和要提出的问题。如果你相信好奇心的哲学，那么我认为你应该支持这个抱负。成为一个多星球的物种不仅仅是对生命的集体保险。那是防御性的理由。但我还认为，生活不能仅仅是解决一个又一个悲伤的问题。你必须有早上醒来便感到幸福的理由。你必须有要问自己为什么对未来感到兴奋的理由。是什么给你希望？如果你不确定，问问你的孩子。
I think the idea of us being a space-faring civilization and being out there among the stars is incredibly inspiring and exciting and something to look forward to. And there need to be such things in the world. Let me ask you a different question about confidence. We were having conversations here earlier, but people and where people get their confidence from. Some people have greater security. Other people have great confidence. And I was thinking about you because you have a very interesting history where people have told you over and over again that you're wrong. Well, sometimes they're right. Well, sometimes they are, but I would say that when it comes to Tesla, when it came to SpaceX, people told you that you were crazy. You were out of your mind. This was never going to happen. It's never going to work.
我认为我们成为一个太空文明并且在星际之间探索的想法非常激励人心和令人兴奋，值得期待。世界上需要这样的事物。让我问你一个与自信心有关的不同问题。我们之前进行过一些对话，关于人们从何处获得自信。有些人有更强的安全感，有些人有很大的自信。我在想你，因为你有一个非常有趣的经历，人们一次又一次地告诉你你错了。有时候他们是对的。有时候是对的，但我要说当涉及到特斯拉，当涉及到太空探索技术公司时，人们告诉你你疯了，你是疯了。这永远不会发生，不会奏效。
And so what we might ask you this though is now when people say you're wrong, this isn't right. Do you look at that and say, you know what, that's like a red flag for me because, you know, I've been told so often that I'm wrong that I know that I know I'm right, because I've had that experience. Or are there people in your life when they say, you know what, Elon, this is not right. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, I think what you're trying to say is that, do I at this point think because I've been right so many times for others, I said, I'm wrong, that now I pass blue on right one, I fact I'm wrong. You do very well. What do you think?
所以我们可能会问你的是，现在当人们说你错了，这不对的时候，你会怎么看待呢？你知道吗，对我来说这就像是一个警告信号，因为我常常被告知我是错的，我知道我是对的，因为我有这样的经验。还是说，在你的生活中有人说，你知道吗，伊隆，这是不对的。你明白我的意思吗？我的意思是，我想说的是，现在我是否因为我为别人解决问题已经正确无数次，所以即使我说错了，我能够明白。你做得很好。你的想法如何？
No, I'm right. So yeah, no, look, here's the thing. Physics is unforgiving. Physics is unforgiving. So, I mean, I have these very small sayings that I've come with, that physics is the law and everything else is a recommendation. In the sense that you can break any law made by humans, but try breaking a law made by physics. That's much more difficult. So, if you are wrong and persistent being wrong, the rockets will blow up and the cars will fail.
不，我是对的。嗯，看，说实话，物理学是无情的。物理学是无情的。所以，我的意思是，我有一句至理名言，即物理学是法律，其他一切只是建议。也就是说，你可以违反人类制定的任何法律，但试试违反物理定律。那要困难得多。所以，如果你错误并且一直坚持错误，火箭就会爆炸，汽车就会故障。
So, this is, we're not trying to just figure out what flavor of ice cream is the best flavor of ice cream. There's a thousand things that can happen on a rocket flight, and only one of them gets the rocket to orbit. And so, being wrong results in failure when dealing with physical objects. But that's the interesting part. So, now you've built these great companies that physically, the physics of them, are enormously successful. So successful, arguably, that you have leverage over everybody else, right? Nobody else can do Starlink. Nobody else can get the rockets in space yet Amazon and Jeff Bezos are trying, but they haven't yet. I hope he does. You hope he does. I actually agree with with with with a lot of Jeff's motivations. I mean, I think, you know, he's, and so, I'm never put there but this way. If there was a button I could press that would delete Blue Origin, I wouldn't press it. So, I think it's good that he's spending money on making rockets too. You know, it's just perhaps he spent more time on it, but, you know, it's up to him.
所以，我们并不是在试图找出哪种口味的冰淇淋是最好的口味。火箭飞行中可能发生一千种事情，只有其中一种能使火箭进入轨道。因此，处理物理实体时，错误会导致失败。但这也是有趣的地方。所以，现在你们已经建立了这些非常成功的企业，从物理学的角度来看，它们非常成功。可以说，你们对其他人有很大的影响力，对吗？没有人能做到像Starlink一样。亚马逊和杰夫·贝索斯也尝试过，但他们还没有成功。我希望他能成功。你也希望他能成功。我实际上同意杰夫的很多动机。我的意思是，我认为他是……所以，我永远不会这样说。如果我有一个按钮可以删除Blue Origin，我不会按下它。所以，我认为他花钱制造火箭也是好事。也许他可以花更多的时间在上面，但这取决于他自己。
But I should make a point here. So, nothing any of my companies have done has been to stifle composition. In fact, we have done the opposite. So, at Tesla, we have open-sourced op-attens. Anyone can use our patent for free. How many companies do you know who've done that? Can you name one? I can't. At SpaceX, we don't use patents. So, I've been saying that once in a while we'll file a patent just so some patent control doesn't cause trouble. But we're not stopping any. We've done nothing anti-competitive. We've done nothing to stop. I'm not just you at all. I'm just going to clarify for the audience because some companies have done anti-competitive things. I think the strange thing or the unusual thing about SpaceX and Tesla is that we've done things that have helped our competition. So, at Tesla, we have made our supercharger system open access. We've made our charger technology available for free to the other manufacturers. The reason I know Wolf Garden, we could have put a wall up. Instead, we invited them in.
但是我要在这里强调一点。所以，我公司所做的任何事情都不是为了限制创作。事实上，我们做的恰恰相反。在特斯拉，我们对外公开了专利。任何人都可以免费使用我们的专利。你知道有多少公司这样做了吗？你能说出一个吗？我不能。在SpaceX，我们不使用专利。所以，我一直说过偶尔我们会申请一个专利，只是为了防止某些专利控制引起麻烦。但我们没有停止任何事情。我们没有做任何反竞争的事情。我绝对不是你。我只是为了向观众澄清，因为一些公司确实做了反竞争的事情。我认为SpaceX和特斯拉的奇怪之处或不寻常之处在于，我们做了一些有助于我们的竞争对手的事情。所以，在特斯拉，我们开放了超级充电系统的使用。我们将充电技术提供给其他制造商，免费使用。我之所以提到沃尔夫花园，是因为我们本可以设立壁垒。相反，我们邀请他们参与进来。
The reason I mentioned this, though, is because we've had the success in the physical physics world, you now have these very difficult decisions that have huge impacts on the world that are not physical decisions at all. They're decisions of the mind. They're decisions that you and others have to make. There's a question whether you should be making these decisions at all. And I think about it in the context of Starlink. Obviously, there was the report about how it's being used in Ukraine and the Russia war. There's questions about Taiwan, whether Taiwan should use it or will use it. I believe they're not right now because they're worried that at some point maybe the Chinese will tell you that you have to, they have leverage over you and you're going to have to turn that off. These are very difficult decisions. And I'm so curious how you think about that. And not just the decisions, the fact that you have that power.
我提到这个的原因是因为我们在物理世界取得了成功，现在你面临着这些非常困难的决策，这些决策对世界产生了巨大影响，但它们并不是物质上的决策，而是心灵上的决策。这是你和其他人需要做出的决策。是否应该由你来做出这些决策还存在疑问。我考虑到了Starlink的背景。显然，关于它如何在乌克兰和俄罗斯战争中使用的报道。台湾也存在着是否使用以及能否使用的问题。我相信他们目前还没有使用，因为他们担心中国可能会告诉你必须使用，他们对你有影响力，你将不得不关闭它。这些都是非常困难的决策。我很好奇你是如何考虑这个问题的。不仅仅是这些决策本身，还有你拥有这种权力的事实。
I think it's important for the audience to understand that the reason I have these powers is not because of some anti-competitive actions. It's simply because we've executed very well. Oh, I'm not dismissing that. I think there are so many people by the way who are huge, supporters of what you are dating. There are other satellites out there. But they're not as good as yours. And we can say maybe make the same argument out of cars and everything else. But as a result, that gives you enormous leverage. With the exception of the, by the way, these advertisers who aren't on X, in every other instance, everybody needs you. I mean, nobody's letting their views out product if it's better than you, somebody else's heart, if it's the other products better. And I accept that. It may be one day somebody else's created better products. Like, you know, how is it a bad thing to make better products with other companies?
我认为观众理解的重要性在于，我拥有这些能力并不是因为某些反竞争行为，而仅仅是因为我们表现出色。哦，我并没有忽视这一点。顺便说一下，有很多人是你所约会的巨大支持者。当然，还有其他卫星存在，但它们不如你们的好。我们可以说同样的论点也适用于汽车和其他所有产品。但结果是，这给予了你巨大的优势。除了那些没有在X上的广告商，其他情况下，每个人都需要你。也就是说，如果有比你更好的产品，没有人会选择将自己的产品推向市场。我接受这一点。也许将来会有其他公司创造出更好的产品，那有什么不好呢？
Well, and I wonder as to the back to this, to the Starlink piece of it though, because that has sort of a geopolitical ramification in terms of your power and how you think about that specific power. And then the power that the US government might have, either over you or not over you, the power that Chinese government might have over you, or not over you, and how those things get used. I mean, what are you suggesting? I'm asking the question around this very idea of how these satellites are going to be used, whether you think that you should have control of them, whether the government should have control of them.
嗯，我想知道关于Starlink这个项目的背后情况，因为这涉及到地缘政治的影响，涉及到你们的权力以及你们如何思考这种特定的权力。还有美国政府可能对你们施加的权力，或者没有对你们施加的权力，同时中国政府可能对你们施加的权力，或者没有对你们施加的权力，以及这些力量将如何被利用。我的意思是，你在暗示什么？我是在问围绕这个非常观点的问题，如何使用这些卫星，无论你认为你们是否应该掌握他们的控制权，是否应该由政府控制。
How is the government? Well, that's, there's a lot of people who don't trust the government. All right, exactly. But then this goes back to the trust of you, right? I mean, like I said, we're not the only company who has communication satellites. The outside lights are just much better than theirs. So it's not like we have a monopoly. Do you feel like anybody has. It's a product. It's not like. Do you feel anybody has leverage over you? I mean, I think at the end of the day, if we make bad products that people don't want to use, then the users will vote with their resources and use something else.
政府怎么样？嗯，有很多人不信任政府。好的，完全正确。但是这涉及到对你的信任，对吧？我的意思是，我们不是唯一一家拥有通信卫星的公司。只是我们的产品更好一些。所以并不是说我们垄断了市场。你觉得有没有任何人对你有影响力？我的意思是，我认为到最后，如果我们制造的产品不好，没人愿意使用，那用户就会用他们的资源选择其他产品。
It's a tit at the conversation for a second. Certainly, my company is overseen by regulators. And while, you know, since SpaceX, Starlink, Tesla, are overseen by cumulatively over 100 regulators, and actually more than that, a few hundred regulators, because you've got, we're in 55 countries, if you sum up all the times that I had an argument with regulators, of hundreds of regulators over decades, it can sound really terrible, except they forgot to mention that there were 10 million regulations we complied with, and only five that I disagreed with. But it was all the five, and it sounds like, wow, this guy's a real maverick. I'm like, yeah, but what about the 10 million we complied with?
这个对话多少有些玩味。当然，我的公司受到监管机构的监督。而且，你知道，自从SpaceX、Starlink和特斯拉被超过100个监管机构以及实际上更多的数百个监管机构监督以来，如果你把几十年来我和数百位监管机构争论的次数相加起来，在55个国家，这听起来可能真的很糟糕。然而，他们忘了提到我们遵守了1000万条规定，只有5条规定我不同意。但只是这五条规定，听起来就像，哇，这个人是一个真正的独行侠。我想说，是的，但是我们遵守了1000万条规定呢？
Do you, let me, one related thing on this, the leverage of countries and things over you, regulators, X is this free speech platform. You do business in China, lots of business, China, that's an important part of your business I imagine. Well, that's SpaceX. How do you think about the leverage that the Chinese have over you, and do they have leverage over you? And how do you feel about, some people would say, is it hypocritical for you to be doing business in China, or if, frankly, in other countries where, as it relates to X and other things, that don't follow this free speech path that you have espoused? The best that the platform can do is adhere to the laws of any given country. Do you think there's something more we could do than that? I think it would be very hard, but I just wonder given the sort of strong philosophical approach that you've been vocal about, whether you say to yourself, you know, maybe I shouldn't be doing business in that country.
你，在这方面，是中国和其他国家在你身上施加影响的杠杆。你在中国做生意，很多生意，中国对你的生意来说是重要的一部分，我猜是这样。那就是SpaceX。你怎么看待中国对你的影响力，他们对你有影响力吗？对于一些人来说，你在中国做生意是否有些虚伪？又或者，在与X和其他事物相关的领域，你在其他国家做生意，这些国家并没有遵循你所主张的言论自由的道路，你对此有何感想？这个平台能做的最好就是遵守特定国家的法律。你认为我们能做的比这更多吗？我知道这很难，但我想知道，鉴于你一直强调的强烈的哲学立场，你是否会对自己说，也许我不应该在那个国家做生意。
Well, first of all, Starlink and SpaceX do our no-business in China whatsoever. Tesla has one of four factories, four vehicle factories in China, and China is, you know, I don't know, a quarter of our market or something like that. So it's a quarter of a market of one company. The same is true, by the way, of all the other car companies. They also have something on that order of quarter of their sales in China. So if you, if that's a problem for Tesla, it's a problem for every car company. I mean, I think one has to be careful about not conflating the various companies, because I can only do things that are within the bounds of the law. I cannot do beyond that. My aspiration is to do as much good as possible and to be as productive as possible within the bounds of what is legal, more than that I cannot do.
首先，Starlink和SpaceX在中国根本没有任何业务。特斯拉在中国有四个工厂中的一个，中国是我们市场的大约四分之一，这只是一个公司市场份额的四分之一而已。事实上，其他汽车公司也有大约四分之一的销售来自中国。所以，如果这对特斯拉来说是个问题，那对其他所有汽车公司也是一个问题。我认为我们必须小心，不要混淆不同的公司，因为我只能做符合法律范围内的事情。我不能超出这个范围。我的愿望是在合法范围内尽可能带来更多的好处，以及尽可能地高效生产，我不能做超过这个范围的事情。
I want to pivot and talk about AI for a moment. We had Jensen Wong here, who's a big fan of yours, as you know. Yeah, Jensen's also talking about talking about bringing you the first box, by the way, with Ilya, interestingly enough.
我想转换一下话题，谈谈人工智能。正如你所知，我们这里有 Jensen Wong，他是你的超级粉丝。是的，Jensen也在讨论着要把第一个机器给你，顺便说一句，他是与 Ilya 一起做这个讨论的，非常有趣。
Yes. Back in 2016, I think. There's a video of Jensen and me unpacking the first AI computer at OpenAI. So I'm so curious what you think of what's just happened over the past two weeks, while you were dealing with this other headline, series of headlines. There was a whole other series of headlines.
是的。我想是在2016年。有一段视频，Jensen和我正在OpenAI拆包第一台人工智能计算机。所以我非常好奇，你对过去两周发生的事情有什么看法，当你正在处理其他新闻标题和一系列新闻时。还有一系列其他的新闻标题。
OpenAI. What did you think? Well, you founded it.
OpenAI. 你有什么想法？嗯，你是创立者。
Co-founded. Well, the whole arc of OpenAI, frankly, is a little troubling, because the reason for starting OpenAI was to create a counterweight to Google and DeepMind, which at the time had two-thirds of all AI talent and basically infinite money and compute. And there was no counterweight. It was a unipolar world.
共同创立。坦率地说，整个OpenAI发展过程中的一切都有些令人不安，因为成立OpenAI的原因是为了扬长避短，对抗当时几乎拥有全部AI人才以及几乎无限资金和计算能力的谷歌和DeepMind。而当时并没有任何对抗势力存在，这是一个单边的世界。
And Larry and Page, and I used to be very close friends, and I would stay at his house, and I would talk to Larry into the late hours the night about AI safety. And it became apparent to me that Larry did not care about AI safety. I think perhaps the thing that gave it away was when he called me a species for being pro-humanity, as in, you know, like a race, but poor species. So I'm like, wait a second. What side are you on, and I'm like, okay, listen, this guy calling me a speciesist. He doesn't care about AI safety. We've got to have some counterpoint here, because this seems like we could be. This is no good.
和拉里和佩奇，还有我曾经是非常亲密的朋友，我会住在他的家里，我会和拉里深夜聊到人工智能安全。很明显的是，拉里对人工智能安全不在意。我想也许他表露出来的事情就是当他称呼我为"种族主义者"，因为我支持人类，就像种族一样，但是贫穷的种族。所以我就想，等一下，你站在哪一边？我就说，好吧，听着，这个家伙称呼我为种族主义者。他不在乎人工智能安全。我们必须有一些反对意见，因为这似乎可能引发问题。这样不好。
So OpenAI was actually started, and it was meant to be open source. I named it OpenAI after open source. It is, in fact, closed source. Super close. It should be renamed super close source for maximum profit AI. So because this is what it actually is. I mean, Fay loves Ierny. I mean, in fact, Fred of mine says the way to predict outcomes is the most ironic outcome is the most. There's an outcomes razor, like the simplest sort of explanations most likely. And my friend, Jonah's view is that the most ironic outcome is the most likely. And that's what happened with OpenAI. It's gone from an open source foundation of 5123 to suddenly it's like a 90 billion dollar full profit corporation with closed source. So I don't know how you go from here to there. That seems like a. I don't know. How you get. I don't know if. Is this legal?
因此，OpenAI实际上是开始作为一个开源项目。我将它命名为OpenAI，取名自开源。然而，事实上，它是闭源的，非常封闭。为了最大化利润，它应该被重新命名为超级封闭源AI。因为这实际上就是它的本质。我的意思是，费伊喜欢伊尔尼。我的意思是，实际上，我的朋友弗雷德说，预测结果的方式最具讽刺意味的结果是最可能的。有一个结果剃刀原理，即最简单的解释最有可能成立。而我的朋友乔纳认为，最具讽刺意味的结果最有可能发生。这就是OpenAI发生的情况。它从一个有5123个开源基础的项目突然转变为一个价值900亿美元的全额利润公司，并闭源运营。所以我不知道你是怎么一步步走到这里的。似乎有点...我不知道。这合法吗？
So as you saw Sam Altman get ousted by somebody you know, Iliya. And Iliya was somebody. was a friend of yours. You brought him there. Your relationship with Larry Page effectively broke down over you recruiting him away at this.
正如你所见，Sam Altman被你熟悉的Iliya赶走了。而Iliya是你的一个朋友。是你把他带到那里的。你因为挖角他而导致了与Larry Page的关系破裂。
That's correct. That was the fact. That was the Larry refused to be friends with me after I recruited Iliya. And so here's Iliya apparently saying something is very wrong. I think we should be concerned about this because I think Iliya actually has a strong moral compass. He thinks about. You know, he really sweats it over questions of what is right. And if Iliya felt strongly enough to want to, you know, fire Sam, well, I think the world should know what was that reason.
是的，那个是事实。那就是拉里在我招募伊利亚之后拒绝和我做朋友的原因。现在伊利亚好像在暗示有些事情非常不对劲。我认为我们应该对此感到担忧，因为我相信伊利亚实际上有强烈的道义准则。他会认真思考，对于什么是正确的问题他会很努力。而且如果伊利亚对想要解雇山姆有足够强烈的意愿，我认为世界应该知道他是基于什么样的理由。
Have you talked to him? I've reached out but he doesn't want to talk to anyone. Have you talked to other people behind the scenes? Is this all happening? I've talked to a lot of people. Nobody. I've not found anyone who knows why. Have you? I think we are all still trying to find out. I mean, one of the few things is either it was a serious thing and we should know what it is or it was not a serious thing and then the board should resign.
你跟他说过话吗？我联系了他，但他不想跟任何人交谈。你跟其他人私下交谈过吗？这一切都在发生吗？我跟很多人说过话，没有人知道原因。你呢？我觉得我们都在努力寻找答案。我的意思是，要么这是个严重的事情，我们应该知道是什么，要么这不是什么大不了的事情，那么董事会就应该辞职。
What do you think of Sam Altman? I have mixed feelings about Sam. I do. You know, the ring of power can't corrupt. And he is the ring of power. So, you know, I don't know. I think. I want to know why Iliya felt so strongly as fire Sam. This sounds like a serious thing. I don't think it was trivial. And I'm quite concerned that there's some, you know, dangerous element of AI that they've. They've. Discovered. Yes. You think they've discovered something? That'll be my guess.
你对Sam Altman有什么看法？我对Sam有着复杂的感受。你知道，权力之戒不会使人腐化。而他就是那个权力之戒。所以，我不知道。我想知道为什么Iliya对火掉Sam这么有强烈的感觉。听起来很严重。我不认为这是小事。我非常担心他们可能发现了某种危险的人工智能元素。他们。他们。发现了什么吗？这只是我的猜测。
Where are you with your own AI efforts relative to where you think open AI is, where you think Google is, where you think the others are?
I mean, on the AI front, I'm in somewhat of a quandary here because I've thought AI could be something that would change the world in a significant way since I was in college, I mean, like 30 years ago. But the reason I didn't go both AI right from the get go was because I was uncertain about which edge of the double edge sword would be sharper. The good edge of the bad edge. So, I held a fund during anything on AI. I could have created, I think, leading an AI company and kind of opened AI actually cut his that because I was just uncertain if you make this magic genie what will happen.
相对于你认为开放AI的位置，相对于你认为谷歌的位置，相对于你认为其他人的位置，你在自己的AI努力中处于何处？我的意思是，在AI领域，我有点为难，因为自从我上大学时，就认为AI可能会以一种重大的方式改变世界，30年前就是这样想的。但是，我没有一开始就选择从事AI的原因是因为不确定这把双刃剑的哪一边更锋利，是好的一面还是坏的一面。所以，我一直持有任何与AI有关的基金。我本来可能创建一个领先的AI公司，实际上是开放AI创立的，因为我不确定如果创造了这样一个魔法神灯会发生什么。
Whereas I think building sustainable energy technology is much more of a single edge sword that is single edged good, making life multi-planetary, I think single edged good. You know, so I think mostly single edged good. I mean, giving people better connectivity to people that don't have connectivity or too expensive, I think is very, you know, very much a good thing. So, I think it was instrumental, by the way, in halting the Russian advance, the Ukrainian said so. So, you know, I think there's, but with AI, you've got the magic genie problem. You may think you want a magic genie, but once you see that genie is out of the bottle, it's hard to say what happens.
尽管我认为建立可持续能源技术更像是一把单刃剑，只有好处，让人类居住在多个星球上，我认为只有好处。你知道，所以我认为绝大多数都是好处。我的意思是，为那些没有互联网连接或者太过昂贵的人们提供更好的互联性，我认为是一件非常好的事情。顺便说一句，我认为这对于阻止俄罗斯的进攻起到了关键作用，乌克兰人也是这么说的。你知道，但是对于人工智能来说，你会面临魔法神灯的问题。你可能会觉得你想要一把魔法神灯，但一旦你看到魔法神灯脱离了控制，就很难说会发生什么。
How far are we away from that genie being out of the bottle, you think? We think it's already out. When the genie is certainly poking its head out. The AGI, the idea of artificial general intelligence, given what you now are working on yourself and you know how easy your heart is to train, to create the inferences, to create the weights. I hope I'm not getting too far in the weeds of just how this works, but those are the basics behind the software end of this. They're funny, you know, all these weights, they're just basically numbers in a comma-separated value file, and that's our digital guard, the CSP file. Not that funny. But that's kind of literally what it is.
离那个神灯被释放出来还有多远，你认为呢？我们认为它已经出来了。当神灯确实露出头来的时候。关于人工通用智能的概念，考虑到你现在正在从事的工作以及你了解到自己的训练有多么容易，可以创建推理、创建权重。我希望我没有深陷在这个工作方式的细节中，但这些就是软件端背后的基本原理。你知道，这些权重很有意思，它们实际上只是逗号分隔值文件中的数字，而这个文件就是我们的数字守卫，CSP文件。虽然不太有趣，但这实际上就是它的本质。
So, I think it's coming pretty fast, you know. Is that, I mean, you've famously have admitted to overstating how quickly things will happen, but how quickly do you think this will happen? If you say smarter than the smartest human, at anything? Yeah. It may not be then quite smarter than all humans, well machine-augmented humans, you know, because we keep people who got computers and stuff. It's a higher bar, but you say it's more than any, you know, can write as good a novel and say, JK Rowling or discover new physics or invent new technology. I would say that we're less than three years from that point.
所以，我认为它来得非常快，你知道的。那就是说，你已经出名地承认自己夸大了事物发展的速度，但你觉得这件事会有多快发生呢？如果你说比最聪明的人类更聪明，不管是什么领域？是的。可能并不会比所有人类都更聪明，嗯，对于那些使用了机器的人类增强能力来说，因为我们有那些使用电脑等设备的人。这是一个更高的标准，但你说，它超过了任何人，可以写一本优秀的小说，像JK罗琳那样，或者发现新的物理学知识，或者发明新技术。我认为我们离那个点还不到三年的时间。
Let me ask you a question about XAI and what you're doing. And because there's an interesting thing that's different, I think, about what you have relative to somebody else, which you have data, you have information, you have all of the stuff that everybody in here has put on the platform to sort through. And I don't know if everybody realized that initially. What is the value of that? Yeah, I mean, data is very important. You could say that data is probably more valuable than gold. But then maybe you have more, maybe you have the gold in X in a different way, in a way, again, that I don't know if the public appreciates what that means. Yes, X is the, it might be the single best source of data. I mean, it is, there are more, you know, people links that go to, if you'll click on more links to X than anything else on Earth, sometimes people think Facebook or Instagram is a bigger thing, but actually there are more links to X than anything. You can, there's public information, you can Google it.
让我问你一个关于XAI以及你所做的事情的问题。因为有一件有趣的事情与其他人不同，我认为与你所拥有的相比，你有数据，你有信息，你拥有这个平台上每个人放进去的所有东西。一开始我不知道每个人是否意识到这一点。那有什么价值呢？是的，数据非常重要。你可以说数据可能比黄金更有价值。但也许你有更多，也许你以一种不同的方式拥有X中的黄金，这是一种我不知道公众是否意识到其含义的方式。是的，可以说X可能是最好的数据来源。我是说，有很多人点击更多的链接到达X，比地球上任何其他地方的链接还要多，有时人们认为Facebook或Instagram更大，但实际上到X的链接更多。你可以通过公开信息在谷歌上搜索到它。
Okay, let me ask you, A. So it is, it is where you would find what is happening right now on Earth at any given point in time. The whole Open ad drama played out, in fact, on the X platform. So it is one of the, it's not, you know, Google certainly has a massive amount of data, so is Microsoft. So it's not like, but it is one of the best sources of data.
好的，让我问你一个问题，A。因此，这是一个地球上任何特定时间发生的事情的源头。整个Open广告事件实际上是在X平台上进行的。因此，它是数据的最佳来源之一，虽然Google和微软也有大量的数据。但它是最好的数据来源之一。
Can I ask you an interesting IP issue, which I think is actually something I can say as somebody who's in the creator business and journalistic business and whatnot, where care about copyright. So one of the things about training on data has been this idea that you're not going to train or these things are not being trained on people's copyrighted information. Historically, that's been the concept. Yeah, that's a huge lie. Say that again? That's what these AI, what these ads are all trained on copyrighted data, obviously. So you think it's a lie when Open AI says that this is not, none of these guys say they're training on copyrighted data. Oh, that's a lie. It's a lie. Straight up. Straight up lie. Okay. Now I'm saying, obviously it's been trained on copyrighted data.
我可以向你提出一个有趣的IP问题吗？我认为这实际上是一个我作为一个从事创作和新闻业务等方面的人可以说的问题，我在意版权。关于在数据上进行训练的一件事是，你不会训练或这些东西不是在人们的受版权保护的信息上进行训练的。历史上一直都是这么认为的。是的，这是一个巨大的谎言。再说一遍？这就是这些人工智能、这些广告所训练的版权数据。所以你认为当Open AI说他们不是在受版权保护的数据上进行训练时，这是一个谎言。哦，这是个谎言。直接了当的谎言。好吧。现在我要说，显然它是在受版权保护的数据上进行训练的。
Okay, so the second question, which is all of the people who have been uploading, it's like about every minute, all of the people who have been uploading articles, the best quotes from different articles, videos, 2x, all of that can be trained on. And it's interesting because people put all of that there and those quotes have historically been sort of fair use, right? People are putting those quotes up there and individually on a fair use basis, you'd say, okay, that makes sense. But now there are people who do threads and by the way, there may be multiple people who've done, you know, an article that has a thousand words, technically all thousand words could have made it onto X somehow. And effectively, now you have this remarkable repository. And I wonder what you, how you think about that again and how you think the creative community and those who were the original IP owners should think about that. I don't know except to say that by the time these lawsuits have decided we'll have digital God. So that's a digital God at that point. These lawsuits won't be decided before on a timeframe that is relevant. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think we live, you know, there's that, I don't know if it's actually a real Chinese thing or not, but it may live an interesting time. It's apparently not a good thing. But I would prefer it personally, I would prefer to live an interesting times. And we live in the most interesting of times. I think for a while I was like really getting demotivated and losing cleave over the threat of AI danger. And then I finally sort of became fatalistic about it and said well, even if I knew it was annihilation was certain, would I choose to be alive at that time or not? And I said I probably would have choose to be alive at that time because it's the most interesting thing, even if there's nothing I could do about it. So then, you know, then basically sort of a fatalistic resignation helped me sleep at night because I was having trouble sleeping at night because of AI danger. Now, what to do about it? I mean, I've been the biggest, the one banging the drum, the hardest by far, the longest, or at least one of the longest for AI danger. And these regulatory things that are happening, the single biggest reason they're happening is because of me. We're ever going to get their arms around it. We talked to the vice president this afternoon. She said she wants to regulate it. People can try to regulate social media for years and have done nothing effectively.
好的，来说第二个问题，就是那些一直在上传的人，大概每分钟都有人在上传文章，不同文章、视频的最佳引用，以及2x的一切都可以进行训练。有趣的是，人们把所有这些都放在那里，而这些引用历来都是可以公正使用的，对吧？人们把这些引用放到那里，从公平使用的角度上看，这是有道理的。但现在有些人在做串联回应，而且可能会有多个人做，你知道，一篇包含一千字的文章，理论上说其中的每个字都可能出现在X上。这实际上形成了一个非常丰富的资料库。我想知道你对此如何看待，以及你认为创意社区和原始知识产权所有者应该如何看待。我不知道，除了说这些诉讼判决将来会有一个数字上帝。所以这将是一个数字化的时代。这些诉讼不会在对时间有关联的时间框架内决定。这是一件好事还是一件坏事？我认为我们生活在一个最有趣的时代。我曾经一度非常受到AI危险威胁的影响，丧失了动力和清晰思考。然后我终于变得宿命论，说无论我知道毁灭是肯定的，我会选择在那个时候活着还是不活着？我说我可能会选择在那个时候活着，因为那是最有趣的事情，即使我对此无能为力。所以，基本上，一种宿命论的接受帮助我晚上入睡，因为我曾经因为AI危险而难以入睡。那么，对此应该怎么办？我一直是最大的、声音最大、时间最长的AI危险讨论者之一。而这些正在发生的管制措施，之所以发生，是因为我。我们今天下午与副总统交谈过。她说她想要对其进行管制。多年来人们一直试图管制社交媒体，但没有有效果。
Well, there's regulation around anything which is like a physical danger to a danger to the public. So like cars are heavily regulated, communications are heavily regulated, rockets and aircraft are heavily regulated. The general philosophy about regulation is that when something is a danger to the public that there needs to be some government oversight. So I think in my view, AI is more dangerous than nuclear bombs, and we regulate nuclear bombs. You can't just go make a nuclear bomb in your backyard. I think we should have some kind of regulation with AI.
嗯，对于任何可能对公众构成物理威胁的事物，都会有相应的监管规定。因此，例如汽车、通讯、火箭和飞机等都受到严格的监管。对于监管的一般理念是，当某样东西对公众构成威胁时，需要有政府的监督。在我看来，人工智能比核弹更加危险，而核弹受到我们的监管。你不能在自家后院随便制造核弹。我认为我们应该对人工智能进行某种形式的监管。
Now, this tends to cause the AI acceleration to get up and arms because they think AI is sort of heaven basically. But you typically don't like regulation. You've pushed back on regulators for the most party in the world of Tesla. So many instances where we read articles about you pushing back on the regulators. I'm so curious why in this instance now you own one of these businesses.
现在，这往往会导致人工智能（AI）领域的发展陷入混乱，因为他们认为AI实际上是神话的存在。但通常来说，您并不喜欢监管。在特斯拉的世界里，您一直在与监管机构进行抗衡，我们经常读到关于您抵制监管机构的文章。我很好奇为什么在这种情况下，您却拥有这样一家业务。
As I said a moment ago, one should not take what is viewed in the media as being the whole picture. There are literally hundreds, not an exaggeration, so there are probably 100 million regulations that my companies comply with. And there are probably five that we don't. And if we disagree with some of those regulations, it's because we think the regulation that is meant to do good doesn't actually do good. But that's an interesting thing. It's not the thing to find regulations for the state. But the question is if there are laws and rules, whether the idea is that you're making the decision that the law and the rule shouldn't be the law and the rule and then right isn't.
就像我刚才说的，人们不应该单纯地把媒体呈现的事物当作整个画面。我的公司实际上要遵守数百项规定，这并不夸张，可能有1亿条规定。其中大概有5条我们没有遵守。如果我们对其中一些规定持不同意见，那是因为我们认为旨在积极作用的规定事实上并没有起到积极作用。但这是一个有趣的问题。不是要为国家寻找规定，而是问题在于是否存在法律和规则，是否存在这样的观点，即你正在做出决定，认为这个法律和规则不应该是法律和规则，那就是对的。
No, I'm saying you're fundamentally mistaken. And it should be obvious that you're mistaken. My companies, automotive is heavily regulated. We would not be allowed to put cars in the road if we did not comply with this vast body of regulation. Now you could fill up the stage with literally six foot high with the regulations that you have to comply with to make a car. You could have a room full of phone books. That's how big the regulations are. And if you don't comply with all of those, you can't sell the car. And if we don't comply with all the regulations for rockets or for Starlink, they shut us down. So in fact, I am incredibly compliant with regulations. Now once in a while, there'll be something that I disagree with. The reason I would disagree with this is because I think the regulation in that particular case, in that rare case, does not serve the public good. And therefore, I can give this my obligation to object to a regulation that is mentally so the public good if it doesn't. That's the only time I object, not because I seek to object.
不，我是在说你从根本上错了。而且你错的应该是显而易见的。我的公司，汽车行业有严格的监管规定。如果我们不遵守这一广泛的规定体系，我们将不被允许将汽车投入市场销售。要制造一辆汽车，你必须遵守的规定能填满一个舞台，高达六英尺，可以堆满一屋子电话簿大。这就是规定的庞大程度。如果不符合所有这些规定，就无法销售汽车。而且如果我们不遵守火箭或Starlink的所有规定，它们会关闭我们的项目。所以事实上，我非常遵守规定。偶尔会有一些我不同意的规定。我不同意这些规定的原因是因为我认为在那个特殊情况下，这一规定不符合公众利益。因此，如果一项规定有损于公众利益，我有责任提出反对。这是我反对的唯一理由，而不是因为我想反对。
In fact, I'm incredibly rule following. Let me ask you a separate question, a social media related question. We've been talking about TikTok today, ahead of the election. What do you think of TikTok? Do you think it's a national security threat? I don't use TikTok. You don't? I don't personally use it. But for people that, for teenagers and people in their 20s, they seem almost religiously addicted to TikTok. So we will watch TikTok for like two hours a day. I stopped using TikTok when I felt the AI probing my mind and it made me uncomfortable. So I stopped using it. And in terms of anti-Semitic content, TikTok is rife with that. It has the most viral anti-Semitic content by far. But do you think the Chinese government is using it to manipulate the minds of Americans? No. Is that something that you think we should worry about? I mean, you have different states that are trying to ban it. I don't think this is some Chinese government plot. But it is the TikTok algorithm is entirely AI powered. So it is really just trying to find the most viral thing possible. But what is going to keep you glued to the screen? That's it. On sheer numbers, there are on the order of 2 billion Muslims in the world. And I think small number of Jewish people. 20 million something. Many orders of magnitude fewer. So if you just look at content production on sheer numbers basis, this is going to be overwhelmingly anti-Semitic.
事实上，我是一个非常遵守规则的人。让我问你一个关于社交媒体的问题。今天我们一直在谈论TikTok，在选举之前。你对TikTok有什么看法？你认为它是一个国家安全威胁吗？我不使用TikTok。你不使用吗？我个人不使用。但对于青少年和20多岁的人来说，他们几乎对TikTok上瘾了，几乎是心甘情愿。所以我们每天会花两个小时看TikTok。当我感觉到人工智能在探测我的思维时，我就停止使用TikTok，因为它让我感到不舒服。至于反犹太主义内容，TikTok充斥着这种内容。它有迄今为止最具传播力的反犹太主义内容。但你认为中国政府正在利用它来操纵美国人的思想吗？不。这是我们应该担心的事情吗？我的意思是，你有一些州试图禁止它。我不认为这是中国政府的阴谋。但是TikTok的算法完全由人工智能驱动。它只是尽力找到最具传播力的东西。但是什么东西会让你上瘾，让你一直盯着屏幕呢？就是这样。从数字上来看，世界上大约有20亿穆斯林，而犹太人数量相对较少，大约2000万。这种基数差异非常大。所以仅从内容生产的角度来看，这很可能会产生压倒性的反犹太主义内容。
Let me ask you a political question. And I've been trying to square this one in my head for a long time. In the last two or three years, you have moved decidedly to the right. I think. Have I? Well, we can discuss this. I think that you have been espousing and promoting a number of Republican candidates and others. You've been very frustrated with the Biden administration over, I think, unions and feeling like they did not respect what you've created.
让我问你一个政治问题。而且我一直在试图理顺这个问题。在过去的两三年里，你明显向右倾斜了。我觉得是吗？这个我们可以讨论一下。我认为你一直在支持和推崇一些共和党候选人和其他人。你对拜登政府感到非常失望，我认为是因为工会问题，以及他们没有尊重你所创造的东西。
I mean, without any during nothing to provoke the Biden administration, they held an electric vehicle summit at the White House and specifically refused to let Tesla attend. This was in the first six months of the administration. And we inquired, we're like, we literally make more electric cars than everyone else combined. Why are we not allowed? Why are you only letting your Ford GM Chrysler and UAW and you're specifically disallowing us from the EV summit at the White House? We've done nothing to provoke them. Then Biden went on to add insult to injury and publicly said that GM was leading the electric car revolution. This was in the same quarter that Tesla made 300,000 electric cars and GM made 26. Does that seem fair to you?
我的意思是，在没有任何挑衅拜登政府的情况下，他们在白宫举办了一次电动汽车峰会，并明确拒绝了特斯拉的参与。这发生在政府上台的前六个月。我们询问他们，我们可是比其他所有人都制造更多的电动汽车，为什么不让我们参加？为什么只允许福特、通用、克莱斯勒和美国汽车工人工会参加白宫的电动汽车峰会？我们没有做任何事来挑衅他们。然后拜登还公开说，通用在引领电动汽车革命。而当时特斯拉生产了30万辆电动汽车，通用只有26辆。这对你来说公平吗？
So tell me this then. It doesn't seem fair. And I've asked repeatedly, you've probably seen a lot of that. I had a great relationship with Obama. So this is not a. But then there's this. But then there's this. I voted for Obama. I stood in the house for six hours to shake Obama's head. So let me just ask on a personal level. I can see it in your face. This hurt you personally. And it hurt the company too. And it was an insult to. Tesla has 140,000 employees. Okay. Half of them are in the United States. Tesla has created more manufacturing jobs than everyone else combined.
那就告诉我吧。这似乎不公平。我已经反复询问过了，你可能也看到了很多次。我与奥巴马有着很好的关系。所以这不是一个问题。但是接下来又有这个问题。再加上这个问题。我投票支持奥巴马。我站在国会大厦里等了六个小时，想与奥巴马握手。所以从个人的角度来说，我想问一下。我能从你的脸上看出来。这个伤害了你个人。也伤害了公司。这是一种侮辱。特斯拉有14万名员工。好的。其中一半在美国。特斯拉创造的制造业就业岗位比其他公司加起来还多。
So let me ask this then. You've devoted at least the last close to 20 years of your life, if not more, to the climate, climate change, trying to get Tesla off the ground in part to improve climate. You talked about that. Yeah. A real right-wing motive is. Repeatedly. Got it. Far right. If anything. No. I understand that. And then it's so. It's a reverse psychology next level. Well, no. But so here's the question. Which is how do you square the support that you have given? I believe you were at a fundraiser for Vivek Ramaswami, for example, who says that the climate issue is a hoax. Right?
那让我这样问吧。过去近20年，如果不是更久，你都致力于气候问题、气候变化，并且试图推动特斯拉的发展，部分是为了改善气候。你谈论过这个。是的，确实有一个真正的右翼动机。多次。懂了。即使是极右翼。不是。我理解这一点。但这样做很有点逆向心理。不。所以这里的问题是，你如何解释你所给予的支持呢？例如，我相信你参加了Vivek Ramaswami的筹款活动，而他说气候问题是一个骗局，对吧？
I disagree with some of that. But I would think that that would be such a singular issue for you. I would think that the climate issue would be such a singular issue for you that actually it would disqualify almost anybody who didn't take that issue seriously. Well, I haven't endorsed anyone for President. I mean, I wanted to hear what Vivek had to say, because I think some of his things are. That's one of the things he says I think are pretty solid. He's concerned about government overreach, about government control of information. I mean, the degree to which old Twitter was basically a soft puppet of the government was ridiculous.
我对其中的一些观点持不同意见。不过我认为对于你而言，气候问题应该是一个非常重要的问题。我认为那些不认真对待这个问题的人几乎都不应该有资格参选。嗯，我并没有为任何总统候选人背书。我的意思是，我想听听Vivek的观点，因为我认为他的一些观点非常有实质性。他担心政府越权，担心政府控制信息的程度。我是说，旧版的Twitter几乎成了政府的傀儡，这太荒谬了。
So, it seems to me that there's a very severe violation of the First Amendment in terms of how much control the government had over old Twitter. And it no longer does. So, there's a reason for the First Amendment. The reason for the First Amendment for freedom of speech is because the people that immigrated to this country came from a place where there was not freedom of speech. And they were like, you know what? We've got to make sure that that's constitutional because where they came from, if they said something, they'd be put in prison, or there'd be something that would happen to them. And freedom of speech, you have to say, when is it relevant? It's only relevant when someone you don't like can say something you don't like, or it has no meaning. And as soon as you sort of. You know, throw in the towel and concede to censorship, it is only a matter of time before someone censors you. And that is why we have the First Amendment.
所以，在我看来，在旧版Twitter上，政府对言论的控制非常严重，这显然违反了第一修正案。而现在，政府已经不再有这么多控制权了。所以，第一修正案有其存在的理由。言论自由的理由是因为移民到这个国家的人来自一个没有言论自由的地方。他们的想法是，我们必须确保言论自由成为宪法权利，因为在他们来自的地方，如果他们说了某些话，就会被关进监狱，或者会发生一些不好的事情。言论自由只有在你不喜欢的人说出你不喜欢的东西时，或者它没有意义时才显得重要。而一旦你选择妥协并接受审查制度，那只是时间问题，别人也会审查你。这就是我们拥有第一修正案的原因。
Could you see yourself voting for President Biden? If it's a Biden Trump election, for example? I think I would not vote for Biden. You'd vote for Trump. I'm not saying I would vote for Trump, but I mean. This is definitely a difficult choice here. Would you vote for Nikki Haley? Nikki Haley, by the way, wants all social media names to be exposed, as you know. No, I think that's outrageous. Yeah, no. I'm not going to vote for some prose and censorship candidate. Like I said, I mean, I think these. You have to consider that there is a lot of wisdom in these amendments, in the Constitution. And a lot of these things, we take for granted here in the United States. That don't even exist in Canada. There's not enough constitutional rights to freedom of speech in Canada. So, and there's no random rights in Canada. People think you have the right to romance on. You don't actually in Canada. So, half Canadian, I can say these things off of. But, you know, so the freedom of speech is incredibly important, even when people say it. And I like that. It's actually especially important. In fact, it is only relevant when people you don't like can say things you don't like.
你能看得出自己会投票给拜登总统吗？比如说，在拜登和特朗普之间的选举中？我想我不会投票给拜登。你会投票给特朗普。我不是说我会投票给特朗普，但我的意思是，这确实是个难题。你会投票给尼基·黑利吗？顺便说一下，正如你所知，尼基·黑利希望所有社交媒体账户都被公开。不，我觉得那太荒谬了。是的，不行。我不会投票给某个支持删帖和审查的候选人。就像我说的，我的意思是，我觉得这些修正案中有很多智慧，美国人往往将其视为理所当然。可加拿大不存在足够的宪法言论自由权利。而且加拿大也没有随机权利。人们认为你有权利谈论恋爱，但实际上在加拿大并没有这个权利。作为加拿大人，我可以说这些话。但是，你知道，言论自由非常重要，即使有人反对。我喜欢这一点。事实上，它只有在你不喜欢的人能够说你不喜欢的话时才显得尤为重要。
And do you think right now that. They're meaningless. You think right now the Republican candidates or the Democrats are more inclined. I mean, this is where you go to, I assume, to to to woke and anti-woken, the mind virus issue that you've talked about. Which party do you think is more pro freedom of speech given all the things you've seen? We also see, you know, DeSantis, you know, preventing people from reading certain things. Maybe you maybe think that's correct.
你现在觉得他们毫无意义。你现在认为共和党候选人还是民主党倾向更多？我是说，我猜这就是你所追求的，醒悟和反对醒悟，你所谈到的思维病毒问题。根据你所见，你认为哪个政党更加支持言论自由？我们也看到德桑蒂斯阻止人们阅读某些东西。也许你也认为这是正确的。
No. Look, we actually are in an odd situation here where on balance, the Democrats appear to be more pro-censorship than the Republicans. I mean, that used to be the opposite. It used to be, you know, the left position was freedom of speech. You know, I believe at one point the ACLU even defended the right of someone to claim that they were not see or something like that. You know, so like they really were like the left was freedom of speech is fundamental.
不。听着，事实上，我们现在处于一种奇怪的情况，总体来看，民主党似乎比共和党更倾向于审查制度。我的意思是，以前的情况正好相反。曾经，左派的立场是言论自由。你知道的，我记得美国公民自由联盟（ACLU）甚至曾经为某人声称他们没有看到某件事的权利辩护。所以他们确实像左派一直坚信言论自由是基本原则。
And I mean, my, the perception, perhaps it is inaccurate, is that the pro-censorship is more on the left than than the right. We certainly get more complaints from the left than the right. Let me put that away.
我的意思是，也许我的观点不准确，但我感觉左派比右派更加支持审查制度。我们确实收到来自左派的抱怨比右派更多。让我把这个放在一边。
So, but my aspiration for the ex platform is that it is the best source of truth, or the least inaccurate source of truth. And well, you know, I don't know if you want to believe me or not, but I think honesty is the best policy. And I think that the truth will win over time. And the, you know, we've got this great system and it's getting better called community notes, which is fantastic. I think it correcting falsehoods or adding context.
因此，我对这个前平台的期望是它成为最可靠的真相来源，或者说是最不准确的真相来源。然后，你知道的，我不知道你是否想要相信我，但我认为诚实是最好的策略。我相信真理会随着时间的推移而获胜。我们有这个很棒的系统，叫做社区笔记，它正在变得越来越好，这实在太棒了。我认为它能够纠正错误或添加背景信息。
In fact, we make a point of not removing anything, but only adding context. Now, that context could include that this is completely false, and here's why. And no one is immune to this. I'm not immune to it. Advertisers are not immune to it. In fact, we've had community notes, which has caused us some loss in advertising, speaking of loss in advertising revenue. If a community note, if this false advertising, the community note will say this is false. And here is why. I mean, like, there's one specific example that is public knowledge that I'll mention it, which is at one point Uber had this ad which said, earn like a boss. And it was community noted, if by boss you mean $12.47 an hour. This, that caused at least a temporary suspension of advertising from Uber.
事实上，我们注重的是不删除任何内容，而只是添加背景信息。现在，这个背景信息可以包括这是完全错误的，并且这是为什么。没有人对此免疫，包括我在内。广告商也不例外。事实上，我们有社区注释，这导致我们在广告收入上损失了一些。如果有社区注释，即使这是虚假广告，社区注释也会指出这是虚假的，并解释原因。我要提到一个众所周知的具体例子，就是Uber曾经有一则广告说“像老板一样赚钱”，这引起了社区注释，如果以老板的标准来衡量，那意味着每小时12.47美元。这导致Uber的广告至少暂时停了下来。
I got to ask you a question that might make everybody in the room uncomfortable or not uncomfortable. It goes to the free speech issue. The New York Times Company and the New York Times newspaper, it appeared over the summer to be throttled. What went in? The New York Times. Well, we do require that everyone has to buy a subscription and we don't make exceptions for anyone. And I think if I want the New York Times, I have to pay for a subscription and they don't give me a free subscription. So I'm not going to give them a free subscription.
我要问你一个问题，这可能使房间里的每个人感到不舒服，也可能不会。这涉及到言论自由的问题。《纽约时报》公司和纽约时报，似乎在夏天遭到了限制。是什么原因呢？是《纽约时报》。好吧，我们要求每个人都必须购买订阅，没有例外。我认为如果我想要《纽约时报》，我就必须付费订阅，他们不会给我免费订阅。所以我也不会给他们免费订阅。
But were you throttling the New York Times relative to other news organizations, relative to everybody else? Was it specific to the Times? They didn't buy a subscription. By the way, it cost like $1,000 a month. So if they just do that, then they're back in the saddle. But you are saying that it was throttled. I'm saying, was there a conversation that you had with somebody you said, look, you know, I'm unhappy with the Times. They should either be buying the subscription or I don't like their content or whatever.
但是相对于其他新闻机构来说，你是否对《纽约时报》进行了限制，对其他人也进行了限制吗？这个限制只针对《纽约时报》吗？他们没有买订阅。顺便说一句，订阅费用大约是每月1000美元。所以如果他们只是购买订阅，问题就解决了。但你在说它们被限制了。我的意思是，你是否和某人有过谈话，你说过，我对《纽约时报》不满意，他们应该买订阅，或者我不喜欢他们的内容，或其他什么的。
Any organization that refuses to buy a subscription is not going to be recommended. But then what does that say about free speech? And what does that say about amplifying free storage? It costs a little bit. Right. But that's it. But that's an interesting, you know, it's like in South Park, when they say, you know, freedom is in free. It costs about go five or whatever. So but it's pretty cheap. Okay. Low cost, low cost freedom. I got a couple more questions for you. You're heading back to Texas after this. Freedom to launch this diver truck. Yeah. It's going to be a big launch. But I wanted to ask you right now more broadly just about the car business and what you see actually happening. And specifically, the government put in place lots of policies, as you know, to try to encourage more EVs. And one of the things that's happened uniquely is you have now a lot of car companies saying, actually, this is too ambitious for us. These plans are too ambitious, 4,000 dealers. I don't know if you saw this yesterday sent the letter to the White House saying, this has gone too far. You're going too far. You had this. And TV. It was an it was a this is going too fast, too far, and that there's not enough demand are underneath all this is this idea that maybe there's not enough demand for EVs that the American public has not bought into the I mean, they bought into with your company, but they haven't bought into it broadly enough.
拒绝购买订阅的任何组织都不会得到推荐。但是这又对言论自由有何影响？这又对扩大自由存储有何影响？这需要付出一点成本，没错，但这是唯一的代价。这很有趣，就像《南方公园》里说的，你知道自由是需要付出代价的。大概要花五块钱之类的。所以它相当便宜。好的，低成本，低成本的自由。我还有几个问题要问你。你在这之后要回德克萨斯州。自由发布这个潜水车的自由。是的，这将是一个大型发布活动。但我现在想问你一下关于汽车行业的更广泛的问题，以及你认为将会发生的事情。具体而言，政府已经实施了许多政策来鼓励更多的电动汽车。而一个独特的情况是，现在有很多汽车公司表示，这对我们来说太雄心勃勃了。我们无法承受这些计划，有4000家经销商。我不知道你是否看到了昨天那封致白宫的信件，他们说这已经太过分了。你走得太远了。你有这个。这是太快了，太远了，而且市场需求不足。而所有这一切背后的基本问题可能是，电动汽车的需求不足，美国公众并没有广泛接受这个观点，尽管他们对你们的公司接受了，但这还不够广泛。
Well, I think if you make a compelling electric car, people will buy it. No question about it. I mean, electric car sales in China are gigantic. That's by far the biggest category. And I think that would be the you know, I mean, it's worth noting. Okay, so the probably the best reputation of that is that the Tesla Model Y will be the best selling car of any kind on Earth this year. Of any kind, gasoline or otherwise, is there another car company that you think still get good job with this? I mean, I think the Chinese car companies are extremely competitive by far our toughest competitions in China. So I mean, there's there's a lot of people out there who think that the top 10 car companies are going to be Tesla followed by nine Chinese car companies. I think they might not be wrong. So China is super good at manufacturing and the work ethic is incredible. So, you know, like if we consider different leagues of competitiveness at Tesla, we consider the Chinese League to be the most competitive. And by the way, we do very well in China because our China to China team is the best.
我认为，如果你制造出一辆引人注目的电动汽车，人们肯定会购买。毫无疑问。我的意思是，中国的电动汽车销量庞大，这无疑是最大的市场。我认为这是一个值得注意的点。好吧，可能最好的例子就是特斯拉的Model Y将成为今年全球销量最好的车型，不管是汽油车还是其他类型的车。你认为还有其他车企能做得这么好吗？我认为中国的车企竞争力非常强，迄今为止我们在中国的最强劲竞争对手。有很多人认为，前十大汽车企业将会有特斯拉和九家中国车企。我认为他们可能没错。中国在制造业方面非常强大，工作态度也非常出色。因此，我们将中国视为最具竞争力的联赛。顺便说一句，我们在中国做得非常出色，因为我们的本土团队是最优秀的。
How worried are you that the unionization effort that just took place at what I shouldn't say effort, but the new wages and like at GM and Ford are that they're coming for you. And they are coming for you. What is that going to mean to you in your business? Well, I mean, I think it's generally not good to have an adversarial relationship between people online, you know, one group at the company and another group. In fact, I mean, I just agree with the idea of unions, but for past four reasons, that is different than people may expect, which is I just don't like anything which creates kind of a lords and peasants sort of thing. And I think the unions naturally try to create negativity in a company and create a sort of lords and peasants situation. There are many people at Tesla who have gone from working on the line to being in senior management. There is no lords and peasants. Everyone eats at the same table, everyone parks in the same parking lot. You know, at GM, there's a special elevator for only for senior executives. We have no such thing at Tesla. You know, the things that I actually know the people on the line because I worked on the line and I walked the line and I stepped in the factory and I worked beside them. So I'm not a stranger to them. And then actually many times where I've said, well, can't we just hold a union vote?
你对刚刚在GM和福特公司发生的工会化努力有多担心？而且他们确实正在接近你。这对你的生意意味着什么？嗯，我认为在线上维持敌对关系通常都不是好事，你知道，公司内的一个团队和另一个团队之间。实际上，我不同意工会的观点，但原因与人们可能期望的不同，那就是我不喜欢任何控制制度类似于贵族和农民的事情。我认为工会天生就试图在一个公司制造负面情绪，制造一种贵族和农民的局面。在特斯拉，有很多人从生产线上升为高级管理层。我们不存在贵族和农民的差别。大家在同一张餐桌上吃饭，停在同一个停车场。在GM，高级管理人员有专用电梯。在特斯拉，我们没有这样的东西。我对生产线上的员工非常了解，因为我曾经在那里工作过，走过生产线，踏入工厂，与他们一起工作。所以我并不是对他们陌生。事实上，有很多次，我说过，我们能不能进行一次工会投票呢？
But apparently a company is not allowed to hold a union vote. So it has to be somehow cool for it, but the unions can't do it. So I said, well, let's just have a hold of it and see what happens. The actual problem is the opposite. It's not that people are trapped at Tesla building cars. The challenges is how do we retain great people to do the hard work of folding cars when they have like six other opportunities that they can do that are easier? That's the actual difficulty is that building cars is hard work and there are much easier jobs. And I just want to say that I'm incredibly appreciative of those who both cars and they know it. So, I don't know, maybe there will be unionized. If Tesla gets unionized, it will be because we deserve it and we failed in some way. But we certainly try hard to ensure the prosperity of everyone. We give everyone stock options. We've made many people who were just working online who didn't even know what stocks were. We've made them millionaires.
显然，一家公司不被允许进行工会投票。所以公司需要以某种方式变得很酷，但工会无法做到。所以我说，好吧，我们就试试看吧。实际问题恰恰相反。特斯拉没有让人们陷在那里制造汽车。挑战是如何留住那些能够从事制造汽车这种辛苦工作的优秀员工，尤其是当他们有其他六个更容易的工作机会时。实际的困难在于制造汽车是一项辛苦的工作，而且有很多更轻松的工作。我只想说，我非常感激那些制造汽车的人，他们心知肚明。所以，我不知道，或许会出现工会。如果特斯拉被工会化，那是因为我们理所当然应该这样，并且我们在某种程度上做错了什么。但我们肯定会努力确保每个人的繁荣。我们给每个人股票选择权。我们已经让很多只是在网上工作甚至不知道什么是股票的人成为了百万富翁。
So we're going to run out of time. Find a couple quick questions. When do you have the time to tweet or to post? I actually think about it all the time. As I said, I use it. Well, I use it bathroom sometimes. I use it all the time. Meaning if we were to open up our phones and look at the screen time, what does yours look like? Well, about every three hours, I make a trip to the laboratory. That's the only time you do this? Seems like you're on there a lot. No, I mean, there'll be like brief moments between meetings. Obviously, I've like 17 jobs. I guess technically it's work at this point. It is. But I'm thinking just in terms of your mind, share. By the way, there's a lot of people who should be working who are on this. Technically posting on Twitter or X is work. It does count as work. So that's you know, here's that. But no, I mean, I think I'm on. Well, I guess usually probably I'm on for longer than I think I am. But do you think that's five hours a day? If we're at the screen time of like a number of hours per week, tonight that's a scary number. It's probably, I don't know, it's a little over an hour a day or something like that. Just an hour a day.
所以我们的时间不够用了。找几个快速的问题。你什么时候有时间发推文或发帖？我一直都在想这个问题。就像我说的，我用它。嗯，有时候我在洗手间使用它。我一直都在用。意思是，如果我们打开手机看一下屏幕使用时间，你的是什么样的？嗯，大约每三个小时，我会去洗手间一次。这是唯一的时间吗？似乎你在上面待的时间挺多的。不，我是说，在会议之间也会有一些短暂的时间。显然，我有17个工作。从技术上讲，现在它算是工作了。没错。但我是围绕你的思维来说的。顺便说一句，有很多应该工作的人在上面浪费时间。从技术上讲，发推特或者用X都算是工作。它算是工作。就是这样。但是，我觉得我上面的时间可能比我想象中的要长。但是你认为这是五个小时一天吗？如果我们以每周的屏幕使用时间计算的话，那就是个可怕的数字。大概，我不知道，可能每天一点多一些吧。就一天一个小时。
If we really looked at this together, do you have your phone with you? Yeah. You want a look? Okay. Okay, here we go. You ready? Screen time. It's general. Yeah, screen time. Sometimes this is a scary number, but. I know. That's why I thought. I just got a new phone. So I think this is not accurate because it's one minute. For sure. It's more than that. Wait, it's over the week. Go to the week. Okay, so it's still wrong. It's more than four minutes. I just got a new phone. So this is not accurate. This literally says four minutes. New phone. Tim Cook's into the phone? New phone who does. I should ask, by the way, because I just mentioned Tim Cook. Do you feel like you're going to have to have a battle with him eventually? Is that the next fight over the App Store? The idea of making a phone. What do you mean like? No, no, no. Over the App Store. You ever make a phone? Sam Altman's apparently thinking about making a phone with Johnny Add. I mean, I don't think there's a real need to make a phone. I mean, if there's an essential need to make a phone or make a phone, but I got a lot of free supply. So I mean, I do think there's a fundamental challenge that phone makers have at this point because you've got basically a black rectangle. How do you make that better? Do you want to do that? What does that look like in Elon's head? No, that's literally, yeah, good face in the head. New link. Well, there we go. The best interface would be a neural interface directly to your brain. So that would be a neural interface. How far away do you think from that? And how excited or scary does that seem to be? And we read these headlines, obviously, about a monkeys who died, as you know. What should we think about that?
如果我们真的一起看这个，你带着手机吗？是的。你想看一下吗？好的。好的，我们开始吧。你准备好了吗？屏幕时间。很普遍。是的，屏幕时间。有时候这个数字很可怕，但是。我知道。所以我想。我刚换了一部新手机。所以我觉得这个不准确，因为只有一分钟。肯定比那个多。等一下，是一周的时间。好的，所以还是错的。肯定超过四分钟。我刚换了一部新手机。所以这个肯定不准确。这上面确实写着四分钟。新手机。蒂姆·库克也用这个手机？新手机是谁的。我应该问一下，顺便说一下，因为我刚提到了蒂姆·库克。你觉得你最终会和他有争斗吗？这是关于应用商店的下一个战斗吗？制造手机的想法。你是指像怎么样？不，不，不。关于应用商店的。你有没有制造过手机？Sam Altman显然在考虑和Johnny Add一起制造手机。我觉得没有真正的必要制造手机。我是说，如果有必要制造手机或者制造手机，但是我有很多备用的供应。所以我觉得手机制造商在这个时候有一个根本的挑战，因为你基本上只有一个黑色的长方形。你怎么让它变得更好？你想做这个吗？埃隆心里是什么样子？不，那确实是，是我脑海中的样子。新链接。好吧，最好的界面将是直接连接到你的大脑的神经接口。所以那将是一个神经接口。你认为离这有多远？对此你感到多么兴奋或恐惧？我们肯定读到过这样的头条，关于一些猴子的死亡，你也知道。我们应该如何看待这个？
Yeah, actually, the USDA inspector who came by the neural link facilities literally said, in her entire career, she has never seen a better animal care facility. It is, we are the nicest channels that you could possibly be, even to the rats and mice, even though they did the plague and everything. So it is like monkey paradise. So the thing that gets conflated is that there were some terminal monkeys where, this is actually several years ago, where the monkeys were about to die. And we're like, OK, we've got an experimental device. It's the kind of thing which only put in a monkey that's about to die. And then, you know, now the monkey died, but it didn't die because of the neural link died because it was, you know, had a terminal case of cancer or something like that. So, neural link has never caused the death of the monkey. It's the best, unless they're hiding something for me, it's never caused the death of the monkey. And in fact, we've now had monkeys with neural link implants for like two, three years, and they're doing great. So, and we've even replaced the neural link twice. And we're getting ready to do the first implants in, hopefully in a few months. The early implementations of neural link, I think, are unequivocally good. Speaking of the double-edged sword, I think these early implementations are single-edged sword because the first implementations will be to enable people who have lost the brain body connection to be able to operate a computer or a phone faster than someone who has hands that work. So, you can imagine if Stephen Hawking could communicate faster than someone who had full full body functionality. Now, incredible, that would be. Well, that's what this device will do. And we should have a proof of that in a human, hopefully in a few months. It already works in monkeys and works quite well with monkeys that can play video games just using, just by thinking. So, in the next application, after the sort of dealing with tetraplegics, quadriplegics is going to be vision. Vision is the next thing. So, it's like if somebody has lost both eyes or the optic nerve has failed, basically where there's, they have no possibility of having sort of some ocular correction. That will be the next thing for Neuralink is a direct vision interface. And in fact, then you could be like Jordy LeFourge from Star Trek. You could see in like any frequency, actually. You could see in radar if you want.
是的，实际上，来过神经连接设施的美国农业部检查员说过，她在整个职业生涯中从未见过更好的动物护理设施。无论是对老鼠还是对老鼠，我们都是最友好的渠道，尽管它们带来了瘟疫等问题。所以这就像是猴子的天堂。所以误解的是，几年前确实有一些即将死去的猴子。我们说，好吧，我们有一个实验性的设备。这种设备只能放在即将死去的猴子身上。然后，你知道的，现在猴子死了，但它不是因为神经连接而死亡，而是因为它患了绝症，比如癌症之类的。所以，神经连接从未导致猴子的死亡。除非他们对我隐瞒了什么，我从未导致猴子的死亡。实际上，我们现在已经将神经连接植入了猴子的大脑两三年了，效果非常好。所以，我们甚至曾两次更换神经连接设备。而且我们正准备在几个月内进行首次植入。我认为，神经连接的早期应用是毫无疑问的好的。说到双刃剑，我认为这些早期应用是单刃剑，因为最初的应用将使失去大脑和身体的连接的人比身体功能正常的人更快地操作计算机或手机。想象一下，如果斯蒂芬·霍金能够比手部功能正常的人更快地进行交流，那将是多么不可思议。好吧，这就是这个设备将做到的。我们希望在几个月内能在人类身上验证这一点。它已经在猴子身上实现了，并且在那些能通过思考玩视频游戏的猴子身上表现得非常好。所以，在处理四肢瘫痪患者之后，下一个应用将是视觉。视觉是下一个目标。所以，如果有人失去了双眼或视神经完全失效，基本上没有可能进行某种眼睛矫正，那么神经连接的下一个目标就是直接的视觉接口。实际上，你可以像《星际迷航》中的乔迪·拉福格一样，可以在任何频率下看到东西。你甚至可以像雷达一样看东西，如果你愿意的话。
Two final questions. And then we're going to do in this conversation, which I think has taken everybody inside the mind of Elon Musk today. Not as well as Neuralink, well, well. It actually goes to self-driving cars and vision and everything else.
最后两个问题。然后我们将在这个对话中，我认为已经让大家对埃隆·马斯克的思维有了一些了解。虽然不如Neuralink那样好，但它实际上涉及到了无人驾驶汽车、视觉和其他方面的内容。
And I asked this question of Pete Buttigieg, transportation secretary. It's actually something you retweeted. So, I wanted to ask you the same question. There's a big question about autonomous vehicles and the safety of them. But there's also a question about when it will be politically palatable in this country. For people to die in cars that are controlled by computers, which is say we have 35,000, 40,000 deaths every year in this country. Yeah.
我向交通部长彼特·布蒂吉格提出了这个问题，实际上是你转发的内容。所以，我想问你同样的问题。关于自动驾驶汽车的安全性存在一个重大问题。但同时也存在一个问题，就是什么时候在这个国家中，政治上允许人们在由计算机控制的汽车中死亡。因为每年我们国家有35,000至40,000起死亡案例。是的。
If you could bring that number down to 10,000, 5,000, that might be a great thing. But do we think that the country will accept the idea that 5,000 people, that your family might have perished in a vehicle as a result, not of a human making a mistake, but of a computer? Yes. Well, first of all, humans are terrible drivers. So, people text and drive, they drink and drive, they get into arguments, they deal with sorts of things in cars that they should not do. So, it's actually remarkable that there are not more deaths than there are.
如果你能把那个数字降低到10,000人、5,000人，那可能是一件很好的事。但我们认为，这个国家会接受这样一个想法吗？你的家人可能会因为一个计算机而丧生在车祸中，不是因为人类犯了个错误，而是计算机的原因。是的，首先，人类是糟糕的驾驶员。所以，人们会开车时发短信，喝酒开车，他们会因为争吵而分心，他们会在车里处理一些不该做的事情。所以，实际上能有那么少的死亡案例是非常了不起的。
What we'll find with computer driving is, I think, probably in order of magnitude reduction in deaths. I think, now, in the US has actually far fewer deaths per capita than the rest of the world. If you go worldwide, I think there's something close to a million deaths per year due to automotive accidents. So, I think computer driving will probably drop that by 90 percent or more. It won't be perfect, but it'll be 10 times better.
我认为，在计算机驾驶方面，我们将会看到死亡人数的数量级降低。我认为，现在美国的人均死亡率实际上比世界其他地方要低得多。如果放眼全球，我认为每年由于汽车事故造成的死亡人数接近一百万。因此，我认为计算机驾驶可能会使这一数字降低90%或更多。虽然它不会完美，但它会比现在好10倍。
And do you think that the public will accept that? Do you think the government will accept that? Well, in large numbers, it will simply be so obviously true that it really cannot be denied.
你觉得公众会接受这个吗？你觉得政府会接受这个吗？嗯，在大多数情况下，这会变得如此显而易见以至于无法否认。
And what do you think? I know we've talked about the timeline before, and I know people have criticized you for putting out timelines that may not have come true just yet. But what do you think it will not be? And by the way, do you ever say to yourself, I shouldn't have said that. Sure, of course. Wait, I should have said that. So, yeah, I'm optimistic about, I think I'm like naturally optimistic about time scales. And if I was not naturally optimistic, I wouldn't be doing the things that I'm doing. I mean, I suddenly wouldn't have started a rock company or a electric car company if I didn't have some sort of pathological optimism, frankly.
你认为呢？我知道我们之前谈过时间表，我也知道人们批评过你提出的时间表可能还没有实现。但是你认为会是什么？顺便说一下，你有没有对自己说过，我不应该说那个的。当然有。等等，我本应该说那个的。所以，是的，对于时间范围，我是持乐观态度的。如果我不是天生乐观的，我就不会做我正在做的事情。我的意思是，如果我没有某种病态的乐观主义，我就不会创办一个火箭公司或电动汽车公司。
So, as you pointed out, many people said they would fail. And in fact, actually, I agreed with them. I said, yes, it probably will fail. And they're like, okay. But I thought the basics and tests, I had less than a 10 percent chance of success when we started them. So, yeah, anyway, but the self-driving thing is, I've been optimistic about it. We certainly made a lot of progress. If anybody has tried, has been using the sort of full self-driving beta, the progress is, you know, every year has been substantial.
所以，就像你指出的那样，很多人说它会失败。事实上，我也同意他们的说法。我说，是的，它可能会失败。他们说，好吧。但是，当我们开始进行基础和测试工作时，我觉得成功的机会不到10%。所以，总之，我对自动驾驶的事情是乐观的。我们确实取得了很大的进展。如果有人尝试使用全自动驾驶测试版，你会发现进步每年都是相当可观的。
It's really now at the point where in most places, it'll take you from one place to another with no interventions. And the data is unequivocal that that supervised full self-driving is somewhere around four times safer or maybe more than just human driving by themselves. So, I'm, you know, I can certainly see it coming. Do you think it's another five or 10 years? I mean, people say, no, no, definitely not. Definitely not. And do you feel like investors have invested in something that hasn't happened yet? Is that fair to them? And that's the other question that people have about that.
现在的情况已经达到了一个点，在大多数地方它都能在没有任何干预的情况下把你从一个地方带到另一个地方。而数据明确无误地显示，有监督的全自动驾驶相较于人类单独驾驶，安全性要高出大约四倍，甚至更多。所以，我，你懂的，我肯定能看到它即将到来。你认为还需要再等五到十年吗？我是说，人们说不，不，绝对不需要。绝对不需要。而且你觉得投资者已经投资了一些尚未发生的事情吗？这对他们公平吗？这是人们对此的另一个问题。
Well, I mean, I think that they've all, with rare exception, thought it wasn't happening. So, they were investing, despite thinking, they're very clear that they don't think it's real. So, they don't saying, oh, we just leave everything you want, says, hook, line, and sinker. But, the other thing is that, I mean, I would be a fair criticism of me to say that I'm late, but it doesn't, but I always deliver in the end.
嗯，我的意思是，我认为他们全部（极少例外）都认为这是不会发生的。所以，尽管他们认为情况不真实，但他们仍然在投资。他们并不是说，哦，我们把一切都留给你，无条件地接受。但另一方面，我是说，批评我迟到是公正的，但这并不重要，因为最终我总是能交付成果。
And that's the final question. I took note of this. It was November 11th, and you took to Twitter and you wrote only two words. You said amplify empathy. Right. I was taken back by that, keeping all the things that have been going on in the world. Do you remember what you were thinking?
那就是最后一个问题了。我记下了这个问题。那是11月11日，你在Twitter上写下了只有两个字。你说的是“放大共情”。是的，我对此感到震惊，考虑到世界上发生的一切。你还记得你当时在想什么吗？
Well, I think it's quite literally. I understand it, but what was going on? Why did you write that? Well, I was encouraging people to amplify empathy. Literally. I tend to be quite literal. But was there something that happened that you had seen that you said to yourself, I want to say that? I think I'm just going to do some friends. And we all agreed that we should try to amplify empathy. And so I wrote amplify empathy.
嗯，我觉得这意思很明确。我能理解，但是为什么你要写那个呢？嗯，我鼓励人们增强共情能力。真的是这样字面意思。我通常比较直白。但是有没有什么事情发生过让你想到，我想要表达这个呢？我觉得只是和一些朋友聊了一下。我们都认同我们应该努力增强共情能力。所以我就写下了"增强共情能力"。
If you wanted an unvarnished look inside the mind of Elon Musk, I think you just saw it. But sometimes it's pretty simple, you know.
如果你想看到埃隆·马斯克思维的真实模样，我想你刚刚见识到了。但有时候，事情也是很简单的，你知道的。
Elon Musk, thank you very, very much for the conversation. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Here. Take that with you for a second. Thank you.
埃隆·马斯克，非常感谢您的对话。好的。谢谢。谢谢。非常感谢。谢谢。非常感谢。这个给你，拿着一会儿。谢谢。
I'm just going to say thank you to everybody who stuck around for what has been a remarkable day. We are so appreciative of everybody who has been with us for so many years coming back to this every year. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you had a great day. And I hope we have an opportunity to do this again.
我只是想对每个陪伴我们度过这个非凡一天的人说声谢谢。我们非常感激所有多年来一直与我们在一起的人每年都回来参加这个活动。所以，谢谢你们。谢谢。谢谢。希望你们度过了愉快的一天。也希望我们有机会再次做这件事。
Elon Musk, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.
埃隆·马斯克，大家好。谢谢。谢谢。