Robert Greene: A Process for Finding & Achieving Your Unique Purpose
发布时间 2023-12-04 13:00:07 来源
摘要
In this episode, my guest is Robert Greene, multiple New York Times bestselling author and expert on human psychology and ...
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中英文字稿 
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Robert Green. Robert Green is an author who has written more than five best-selling books, including The 48 Laws of Power, The Laws of Human Nature, and Mastery. He did his bachelor's training at the University of California, Berkeley, and the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室的播客节目，我们将讨论科学和日常生活中基于科学的工具。我是安德鲁·休伯曼，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是罗伯特·格林。罗伯特·格林是一位作家，他已经出版了五本畅销书，包括《权力的48法则》、《人性的法则》和《精通》等。他本科毕业于加利福尼亚大学伯克利分校和威斯康星大学麦迪逊分校。
Robert Green's books are both unique and important for several reasons, not the least of which is that they explore the interaction between the psychology of self, self-exploration, and the psychology of human interaction, all rooted in history and modern culture, and at the same time in a way that pertains to everybody. I first learned about Robert's work from reading the book Mastery, which, to my mind, is a brilliant exploration and a practical tool for how to think about and pursue one's purpose. Whenever I've masked for book suggestions, I always include mastery in my top three recommendations.
罗伯特·格林的书籍有几个独特而重要的原因，其中最重要的是它们探讨了自我心理学、自我探索和人际互动心理学之间的相互作用，这一切都根植于历史和现代文化，并以一种适用于每个人的方式呈现。我第一次了解到罗伯特的作品是通过阅读《精通》这本书，我觉得这是一本杰出的探索和实用工具，可以帮助我们思考和追求自己的目标。每次我询问书籍建议时，我总是把《精通》列为我前三的推荐之一。
During today's discussion, we cover a wide range of topics, including how to find and pursue and achieve one's purpose. We talk about the selection of a life partner, as well as romantic and other types of relationships. We also discuss the topics of motivation and urgency, and this concept of death ground, which arose during our discussion of Robert's recent stroke. Robert's stroke rendered him certain limitations, but also has allowed him to explore how to write, how to exercise, indeed how to interface with life in general, in new ways that allow him to continue to expand his sense of purpose.
在今天的讨论中，我们涵盖了各种主题，包括如何找到、追求和实现自己的目标。我们讨论了生活伴侣的选择，以及浪漫关系和其他类型的关系。我们还讨论了动力和紧迫感的话题，以及在讨论罗伯特最近的中风时产生的“死亡地”的概念。罗伯特的中风使他受到了一定的限制，但也让他有机会以新的方式来写作、锻炼，事实上是以全新的方式与生活接触，从而让他能够继续扩展自己的目标感。
I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have gleaned tremendous amounts of new knowledge that will allow you to navigate forward along the path to your purpose, perhaps find your purpose if you feel you haven't done that yet, as well as to greatly enhance your relationship with yourself, with others, and indeed to the world around you.
我相信在今天的节目结束时，你将会获得大量的新知识，让你能够更好地朝着你的目标前进，或许能找到你的目标，如果你觉得自己还没有找到的话，同时也能极大地提升你与自己、与他人，以及与周围世界的关系。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desired effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
在我们开始之前，我想强调这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究职责是分开的。然而，它是我努力所追求的将科学和相关工具的零成本信息带给公众的一部分。为了与这个主题保持一致，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is ROCA. ROCA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are the absolute highest quality. I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system, and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges, in order for you to be able to see clearly. ROCA understands those challenges and has designed their eyeglasses and sunglasses accordingly so that you always see with crystal clarity. ROCA eyeglasses and sunglasses are designed with a new technology called float fit, which allows them to fit perfectly and not move around even when you're active. In fact, whenever I'm wearing my ROCA eyeglasses or sunglasses, I usually forget that I'm wearing them. I happen to wear ROCA eyeglasses at night when I drive or if I'm reading at night, and I wear ROCA sunglasses during the daytime if it's very bright, especially if I'm driving into sunlight. If you'd like to try ROCA eyeglasses or sunglasses, you can go to roca.com. That's R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman for 20% off your first order. Again, that's R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
我们的第一个赞助商是ROCA。 ROCA制造的眼镜和太阳镜是绝对最高质量的。我花了一生的时间研究视觉系统的生物学，我可以告诉你，为了你能够清晰地看到，你的视觉系统必须应对大量的挑战。ROCA理解这些挑战，并相应地设计了他们的眼镜和太阳镜，使你始终能够清晰地看到。ROCA眼镜和太阳镜采用了一种称为浮动适配的新技术，使其能够完美适合并且在你活动时不会晃动。事实上，每当我戴着ROCA眼镜或太阳镜时，我通常会忘记自己戴着它们。我碰巧在晚上开车或晚上阅读时佩戴ROCA眼镜，并且在白天如果很亮，特别是在阳光直射下，我会佩戴ROCA太阳镜。如果你想尝试ROCA眼镜或太阳镜，你可以去roca.com。即R-O-K-A.com，然后输入代码Huberman，可以享受首次订单8折优惠。再次强调，即R-O-K-A.com，在结账时输入代码Huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are tailored to your unique sleep needs. Now sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we are sleeping well and enough, mental health, physical health, and performance all stand to be at their best. One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to make sure that your mattress is tailored to your unique sleep needs. Helix Sleep has a brief two-minute quiz that if you go to their website, you take that quiz and answer questions, such as do you tend to sleep on your back, your side or stomach, do you tend to run hot or cold in the middle of the night. Maybe you don't know the answers to those questions and that's fine. At the end of that two-minute quiz, there will match you to a mattress that's ideal for your sleep needs. I sleep on the Dusk DUSK mattress, and when I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about two years ago, my sleep immediately improved. So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, go to helixsleep.com slash Huberman, take their two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress for you. And you'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows. Again, if interested, go to helixsleep.com slash Huberman for up to $350 off and two free pillows.
今天的节目由Helix Sleep赞助。Helix Sleep生产适合您独特睡眠需求的床垫和枕头。睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。当我们睡眠质量良好且充足时，心理健康、身体健康和表现都能达到最佳状态。获得良好夜间睡眠的关键之一就是确保您的床垫适合您的独特睡眠需求。Helix Sleep在其网站上提供一个简洁的两分钟问卷，您可以回答一些问题，比如您习惯仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧，晚上您是容易发热还是容易感觉冷。也许您不知道这些问题的答案，那也没关系。在完成这个两分钟的问卷后，他们将为您匹配一个最适合您睡眠需求的床垫。我现在使用的是Dusk DUSK床垫，大约两年前开始使用Dusk床垫后，我的睡眠立即改善了。所以如果您有兴趣升级您的床垫，可以访问helixsleep.com/Huberman，参加他们的两分钟睡眠问卷，他们将为您选择一个定制的床垫。您将获得多达350美元的折扣和两个免费枕头。再次提醒，如果您有兴趣，请访问helixsleep.com/Huberman，可享受多达350美元的折扣和两个免费枕头。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up. Waking Up is a meditation app that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and NSDR, non-sleep-depressed protocols.
今天的节目也由“Waking Up”赞助。Waking Up是一款包含数百种冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽nidra课程以及非睡眠抑制协议的冥想应用程序。
I started using the Waking Up app a few years ago because even though I've been doing regular meditation since my teens and I started doing yoga nidra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an app, turned out to be the Waking Up app, which could teach you meditations of different durations and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the bringing body into different states, and that he liked it very much. So I gave the Waking Up app a try, and I too found it to be extremely useful because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times I have longer to meditate, and indeed I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding, about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states depending on which meditation I do.
我几年前开始使用《醒觉》应用，因为虽然我从十几岁就开始定期冥想，十年前我还开始练瑜伽尼德拉，但是我的父亲提到他发现了一个应用，结果是《醒觉》应用，它可以教你不同时长的冥想，并提供许多不同类型的冥想，使身体进入不同的状态，他非常喜欢。所以我尝试了一下《醒觉》应用，也发现它非常有用，因为有时我只有几分钟可以冥想，而其他时候我有更长的时间来冥想，而且我喜欢探索不同类型的冥想，以获得不同程度的对意识的理解，同时也可以根据所选择的冥想将我的大脑和身体置于许多不同的状态中。
I also love that the Waking Up app has lots of different types of yoga nidra sessions. For those of you who don't know, yoga nidra is a process of lying very still, but keeping an active mind. It's very different than most meditations, and there's excellent scientific data to show that yoga nidra and something similar to it, called non-sleep-depressed or NSDR, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy, even with just a short 10-minute session. If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com slash Huberman and access a free 30-day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com slash Huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
我也喜欢「Waking Up」应用有很多不同类型的瑜伽妮德拉（yoga nidra）课程。对于那些不了解的人，瑜伽妮德拉是一种非常静止，但保持活跃思维的过程。它与大多数冥想非常不同，科学数据表明瑜伽妮德拉和类似的非睡眠抑制（NSDR）可以极大地恢复认知和身体能量的水平，即使只进行短短10分钟的练习。如果你想尝试「Waking Up」应用，你可以访问wakingup.com/huberman并获得一个免费的30天试用期。再次提醒，网址是wakingup.com/huberman，以获得一个免费的30天试用期。
And now for my discussion with Robert Green. Robert, I'm so happy you're here. I'm really happy to be here, Andrew. Thank you so much for inviting me. A short story. In 2015, I was teaching a course to undergraduates. This was a big course, 450 students. This was when I was a professor at University of California, San Diego. I was about to move back to Stanford. But the course was entitled Neural Circuits in Health and Disease. But there was a final lecture where I would do a lot of Q&A with the students about science, about careers, about career paths. And what I found was that many of the students had questions about not just science, but about how to learn and forage for information. And I recommended three books at the end of the course, every year that I taught it. I taught it for four years. And one of the books was the book Longitude, which is a wonderful story about the discovery of timekeeping devices at sea.
现在轮到我和罗伯特·格林的讨论了。罗伯特，很高兴你能来。我真的很高兴能来这里，安德鲁。非常感谢你邀请我。有一个小故事。2015年，我正在为本科生讲课。这是一门大课，有450名学生。那是我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校当教授的时候。我当时正准备回到斯坦福大学。但是有一堂课的最后一节，我会与学生们进行很多关于科学、职业以及职业道路方面的问答。我发现很多学生不仅对科学有问题，而且对学习和搜寻信息的方法也很感兴趣。我在每年的课程结束时都推荐了三本书。我教了四年这门课。其中一本书就是《经度》，它讲述了海上时间测定设备的发现，非常精彩。
One book I'll leave as a mystery, not to be mysterious, but because it's a science book. I'll just tell you what it is. It's principles of neuroscience. So I thought that. And I don't know that one. Yeah, it makes a better doorstop for most than a book, but it's a wonderful resource if you want to learn about neuroscience and your book, Mastery. And the reason I recommended Mastery is because these students were soon going to go into the great jungle of post-undergraduate education. And for me, I found Mastery to be an absolutely transformative book in that it taught me so much about how to learn from others, how to expect certain types of interactions when one kind of assigns themselves to a mentor and vice versa. And it talked about some things that we will get into in more depth today, but not the least of which is about identifying that unique seed that exists within all of us. That can guide our best decisions in terms of finding our purpose. And so I usually end with a great debt of gratitude, and I'll probably do that again at the end. But I want to start with a great debt of gratitude. Mastery transformed my entire life. And in many ways, this podcast probably wouldn't exist were it not for Mastery because it really embedded in me this idea that we all have a deeper purpose and it explains how to go about finding that purpose.
有一本书我会留作谜，不是因为想要神秘，而是因为它是一本科学书籍。我只会告诉你是什么书。那就是《神经科学的原则》。所以我想到了这本书。我不知道这本书的内容。是的，对于大多数人来说，它更适合用作门挡，而不是一本书，但如果你想了解神经科学，它是一本极好的资源。而我推荐《大师》是因为这些学生很快就要进入本科学业的广阔领域。对我来说，《大师》这本书是绝对改变了我的生活，它教会我如何从他人身上学习，如何在自己选择导师时预期某种类型的互动反应，反之亦然。它讨论了一些我们今天将更深入探讨的内容，其中之一就是识别我们内心独特的种子，它可以引导我们找到最好的决策来找到我们的目标。所以我通常以对一种巨大的感激之情结束演讲，最后我也会再次表达这种感激之情。《大师》改变了我整个人生。在很多方面，如果没有《大师》，这个播客可能就不会存在，因为它真正深深地植根于我内心的一个理念，那就是我们每个人都有一个更深层的目标，并且它解释了如何去寻找这个目标。
So I tell you that and I also will use that as a segue for asking you now since I'm sure people's ears are pricked up to this. How do you find your purpose? Could you share with us what it is to find one's purpose and how early life events perhaps can cue us to what that purpose is for each of us?
所以我告诉你这个，并且我也会利用这个作为过渡，现在我想问你，因为我相信大家都对此很感兴趣。你是如何找到自己的目标的呢？你能和我们分享一下找到目标的方法，以及早年事件如何提示我们每个人的目标呢？
Well, thank you for that marvelous introduction. And I'm almost blushing. That's fantastic. Sorry. Well, you know, being a human being is not easy as opposed to an animal because we're born and nobody gives us like a direction. Our parents might be a little bit at our college teachers, etc., mentors, but generally we're on our own. And it's a very, very difficult process. You wake up in the morning and you don't really know what you can do. You could choose 12 different paths. It can be very confusing and very overwhelming.
好的，非常感谢那么精彩的介绍。我都有点脸红了，太棒了。抱歉。嗯，你知道的，作为一个人类并不容易，跟动物相比，因为我们出生时没有人给我们指明方向。我们的父母、大学老师等导师可以给予一些指导，但总体上我们还是要靠自己。这是一个非常非常困难的过程。早上醒来时，你不知道自己能做些什么。你可以选择12条不同的道路。这可能非常令人困惑，也非常压力重。
When you find that sense of purpose, when you find what I call your life's task, everything has a direction. Everything has a purpose. Your energy is concentrated. It's not like you're just going down a single narrow pathway. It's not like life becomes boring and it's just about discipline and solving problems. It's actually the most exciting thing that can ever happen to you because you never have that lost feeling. You wake up in the morning and you go, yeah, this is what I need to accomplish. People come at you with all kinds of distractions and boring and irritating things. You're able to cut it out. It's just the most marvelous piece of internal radar that you can have.
当你找到那种目标感、当你找到我所说的人生任务时，一切都有了方向。一切都有了目的。你的精力集中起来。不再只是走在一条窄窄的道路上。生活也不会变得乏味，只关乎纪律和解决问题。实际上，这是你可能经历的最令人兴奋的事情，因为你再也不会感到迷失。早上醒来，你就知道了，是的，这是我需要完成的事情。人们会带来各种分心和无聊乏味的事情。但你能够把它们剔除出去。这是你最棒的内在雷达。
So I genuinely wish that everybody can find that kind of internal radar. It's not easy and I understand that. There's no instant formula because we're all about instant formulas. It's difficult and I want you to know that so it's not like Robert can give me the answer in three minutes. No, I can't. But there's a process involved. It's not a mystery. You can't follow a very singular process.
所以，我真诚地希望每个人都能找到那种内在的雷达。我知道这并不容易。没有什么即时的公式，因为我们总是追求即时的解决方案。这是困难的，我希望你知道，所以并不是罗伯特可以在三分钟内给我答案。不，我不能。但是这其中涉及到一个过程。这并非一个谜。你不能追随一个非常独特的过程。
The idea is you're talking about childhood. The way I like to frame it is when you were born, you are a phenomenon. You are unique. Your DNA has never occurred in the history of the universe. Going back billions of years. It will never occur in the future. Your life experiences with your parents and everything that you experience in your early years going on up is unique. It's yours. You are one of a kind, right? So that is your source of power. To waste that is just the worst thing you can do in your life. And what the power is is finding that uniqueness. What makes you, you, and how you can mine that and how you can go deep into it and use that to create a career path. Right?
这个意思是你在谈论童年。我喜欢的描述方式是，当你出生时，你是一个奇迹。你是独一无二的。你的DNA在宇宙的历史上从未出现过。回溯数十亿年，也不会在未来出现。你与父母的生活经历以及你在幼年时所经历的一切都是独一无二的。这是你的生命经历，只属于你自己。你是独特的，对吧？所以，这就是你的力量来源。浪费这种独特性只会是你生命中最糟糕的事情。而这种力量就是发现自己的独特之处。找到使你成为你自己的因素，深入挖掘并利用它来创造一条职业道路，明白吗？
And so I tell people when you're a child, when you're four or five or even younger, you have what the great psychologist Maslow called impulse voices. There are little voices in your head that say, I love this. I hate that. I like this food. I don't like when mommy moves this way. I like when daddy comes from here. You're very cute into who you are and what you like and what you don't like. And so this voice is kind of direct you in certain ways, right?
所以我告诉人们，当你是一个孩子的时候，当你只有4岁、5岁甚至更小的时候，你会拥有伟大的心理学家马斯洛所称之为冲动之声。在你的脑海中，有一些小声音会说，我喜欢这个，我讨厌那个，我喜欢这种食物，当妈妈这样移动的时候我不喜欢，我喜欢爸爸从这里来。你对自己和你喜欢和不喜欢的事物非常的热爱和可爱。所以这个声音会在某种程度上引导你，对吗？
And when you're very young, they direct you towards intellectual mental pursuits as well. And there's a book I recommend for everybody. It's Howard Gardner's Five Frames of Mind. It's helped me immensely. The idea is he talks about five forms of intelligence. Our problem is we think of intelligence as mostly intellectual, but there are many forms of intelligence. There's the intelligence that has to do with words. There's abstract intelligence that has to do with patterns and mathematics. There's kinetic intelligence that has to do with the body. There's social intelligence. He has five of them. And the idea is your brain naturally veers towards one of them. You can veer towards two of them that happens, but generally one of them kind of dominates, right? And it's like a grain in your brain that's going in a certain direction. You want to go with that grain because that's where your power will lie.
当你很年轻的时候，他们也把你引导向智力上的追求。有一本书我推荐给每个人，那就是霍华德·加德纳的《心智的五个智慧体系》。它帮助了我很多。他讲述了五种智力形式的概念。我们的问题是我们通常认为智力主要是智力上的，但其实有很多种智力形式。有与语言有关的智力。有与模式和数学有关的抽象智力。有与身体有关的运动智力。有社交智力。他总共有五种智力。而这个概念是你的大脑会自然倾向于其中一种。你可能会倾向于两种，但一般情况下其中一种会占主导地位，对吧？就像在你的脑中有一根谷物沿着某个方向生长。你要顺势而为，因为那是你的力量所在。
So when you're young, if you go back and think about when you were four or five, you can maybe get a picture of some kind of direction or voice inside of you that was impelling you towards this. I know for me, it was words. I can remember when I was six years old, I was just obsessed with words, just the letters in words. Almost slightly schizophrenic way. I would spell words backwards. I would take them apart. I would do anagrams. I love palindromes. So I had a thing about words and language. It's very primal.
当你年轻的时候，如果你回想起自己四五岁时的情景，或许你能感受到内心深处某种驱使着你朝着这个方向或者发出声音的东西。对我来说，这是词语。我还记得当我六岁时，我对词语非常着迷，尤其是其中的字母。有点类似精神分裂的方式。我会倒着拼写词语，拆分它们，做变位词。我喜欢回文。所以我对于词语和语言有一种独特的情感。这是非常原始的。
Some people, Albert Einstein, when he was four years old, his father gave him a birthday gift of a compass. And he was just mesmerized by this compass. The idea that there are invisible forces out there in the cosmos moving this needle. And he's obsessed with the idea of invisible forces.
有些人，比如阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦，当他四岁的时候，他父亲送给他一架指南针作为生日礼物。他对这架指南针着迷不已。那种宇宙中存在着无形的力量，使得指针运动的想法深深吸引着他。他对无形力量的概念着迷不已。
Steve Jobs, when he was like seven or eight or maybe younger in Burling, in California, his father, they passed by a store with technological devices in the window. And he was just hypnotized by the design of those devices in the glass tubes and everything. So he wanted to go in that direction.
史蒂夫·乔布斯在加利福尼亚州伯灵的时候大概七八岁，或者更小一点，他和父亲经过一家窗口陈列着技术设备的商店。他完全被那些玻璃管和各种设备的设计所迷住了。因此，他想朝着那个方向发展。
Tiger Woods saw his father hitting golf balls in the garage. And he was just screaming with joy. He had to do that. I can give you a million different examples of this. Of course, these are people who are famous. Obviously, we can go back and find that. It's easier.
Tiger Woods在车库里看到他的父亲击打高尔夫球时，他欢呼雀跃。他也想要那样做。我可以给你举出许多不同的例子。当然，这些都是名人。显然，我们可以回溯并找到这些例子。这更容易。
But what happens to you, and please come up if I'm going on too long here, please come to you. What happens to you is you're seven, now you're getting older, and you're starting to not hear that voice anymore. You're hearing the voice of your teachers telling you you're not good at this field. You need to get better at math. You know, you shouldn't be interested in these sports or you should be going this straight. Your parents are starting to tell you this is the career they want. You're the direction they want you to go in, right? You start hearing that more than your own voice.
但是发生在你身上的是，如果我说得太长了，请你站出来。发生在你身上的是，当你七岁时，你渐渐长大，开始听不到那个声音了。你开始听到老师告诉你你在这个领域不擅长。你需要在数学上变得更好。你知道，你不应该对这些体育运动感兴趣，或者你应该走这条直路。你的父母开始告诉你他们希望这是一个他们希望你选择的职业。你开始听到这样的声音比听到你自己的声音更多。
As you get older, it gets worse and worse and worse. Then when you're a teenager, it's all about what other people are doing. Your peers, what's cool, what's not cool, you know, and that kind of is more. So all of these noise enters your brain and you can't hear that anymore. You don't know who you are.
随着年龄的增长，情况变得越来越糟糕。当你成为青少年时，一切都围绕着其他人在做什么。同龄人、什么是时髦的、什么不时髦的，这些都变得更加重要了。于是所有这些噪音涌入你的大脑，你已经听不到自己的声音了。你不知道自己是谁。
And so you go to college. You kind of maybe choose a major that seems practical that your parents want you to go into. Maybe you kind of wander around. You're not sure. And then you enter the work world without that inner radar that I'm talking about and you brother your loss, right? Where should I go? Well, I need to make money, right? And so you make a choice based on the need to make a lot of money. Not everyone, but some people do that. And I understand that need. We all need to make a living.
所以你上大学了。也许你选择了一个似乎实用和你父母希望你学的专业。也许你有点四处逛荡。你不确定。然后你进入了工作世界，没有了我所说的内在的方向感，你迷茫了对吗？我应该去哪里？嗯，我需要赚钱，对吧？所以你基于赚很多钱的需求做出了选择。并不是每个人都这样，但有些人会这样做。我理解这种需求。我们都需要谋生。
But that can set you off in a very bad path because you're not connected emotionally. The thing is when you figure out that primal inclination, that grain that's inside of you, then you have the energy to be disciplined, to go through boring tasks, to learn. You learn it a fast degree because you're emotionally engaged. When you're emotionally engaged in a subject, the brain learns twice, three times, four times as fast as when you're not.
但是这样会导致你走上一条非常糟糕的道路，因为你没有情感上的连接。关键是当你发现那种原始的倾向，那种内心的需求之后，你就有了能量去自律，去完成无聊的任务，去学习。你可以以快速的速度学到很多，因为你在情感上投入其中。当你对一个课题产生情感参与时，大脑学习的速度会是没有情感参与时的两倍、三倍甚至四倍。
I always give the example. In college, I studied foreign languages, which was kind of a passion of mine. For three or four years, I studied French and then I went to Paris and I couldn't speak a word. It was useless because it didn't teach me anything practical, right? I was totally confused. And then, but I was in Paris and I loved it and I wanted to live there, right? And I had a girlfriend and I needed to speak French to her. And I can tell you, in one month, I learned more than those four years of university because I wanted to, because I was engaged. My emotions were there. It was like I had to survive to learn French. Whereas, so most of us, we don't have a need really to learn this subject. We're half, we're paying half attention. But when you find that thing that really connects to you, you're paying deep attention. Your emotions are engaged. You're learning at a much faster rate.
我总是举例来说明。在大学里，我学习了外语，这是我的一种热情。三四年间，我学习了法语，然后去了巴黎，结果我一句话都说不出来。这完全没有帮助，因为它并没有教给我任何实用的东西，对吗？我完全迷茫了。但是，我现在却身处巴黎，我非常喜欢这里，我想要在这里生活。而且我还有一个女朋友，我需要用法语与她交流。我可以告诉你，我在一个月内学到的比那四年的大学还多，因为我有意愿，因为我参与其中。我的情感在其中。这就像是我必须活下去才能学会法语。相反地，我们大多数人并没有真正的需要去学习这个科目。我们只是付出一半的注意力。但当你找到那个真正与你相连的事物时，你会投入更深刻的注意力。你的情感会参与其中。你会以更快的速度学习。
Okay. And so, the thing is, how do you find that when you're older? When you're 21, I give people a lot of help and it's usually not so difficult. We can go through that process. It gets harder when you're 30 and you've been wandering around, but it's not impossible. I didn't really start to find my exact path until I was 38, 39, to be honest. So there's hope. When you get 40 and you get 50, it gets more and more difficult, right? And it's very sad if you wasted that seat of uniqueness that I'm talking about. And I tell people there are ways of going back and we go through a process like archeology. We have to dig and dig and dig and find those bones from your childhood that indicated what you were meant to do.
好的。事情是这样的，当你年纪大了，你如何找到那个方向呢？当你21岁时，我给人们很多帮助，这通常不是那么困难。我们可以经历那个过程。当你30岁了还在四处游荡时，会变得更困难，但并非不可能。说实话，直到我38、39岁时，我才真正找到了我的精确方向。所以还是有希望的。当你40岁和50岁时，会越来越困难，对吧？如果你浪费了我所说的那种独特的机会，那会很可悲。我告诉人们，有办法回头，我们像考古学一样进行一个过程。我们必须挖掘、挖掘、挖掘，找到那些表明你小时候应该做什么的线索。
But when you find your life's task, everything opens up. It doesn't mean you figured out, okay, I've got to aim for this particular job when I'm 28. That's not how it works. It gives you a sense of direction. You can try different things. You can experiment. You can have fun when you're in your 20s. You're going to learn. You're going to learn skills. But it gives you an overall framework instead of, oh, all of this confusion, this chaos, social media, the internet. I could go here, here, here. You're lost at sea. It gives you a very important sense of direction, a compass.
但是当你找到了人生的任务时，一切都豁然开朗。这并不意味着你已经弄清楚了，“好吧，我得在28岁的时候为这个特定的工作努力。”事情并不是这样运转的。但找到了人生任务会给你一种方向感。你可以尝试不同的事物。你可以进行实验。20多岁的时候，你可以享受乐趣。你将学到东西。你将学到技能。但它为你提供了一个整体框架，而不是困惑、混乱、社交媒体、互联网。我可以去这里、那里、那里。你在茫茫大海中迷失了方向。它给你一个非常重要的方向感，就像是一枚指南针。
As you describe this, I have this image of, you know, you mentioned animals that presumably don't have a lot of flexibility in terms of the niches they can exist in. But the way I imagine this process is that as a human we're plopped into an environment, and here I'm using analogy where we don't really know if we are an aquatic animal, a terrestrial animal. Or an avian, right?
当你描述这个时候，我心中有这样的一个形象，你知道，你提到了那些可能在生存环境上没有很大灵活性的动物。但是我想象这个过程就像是人类被投放到一个环境中，我在这里使用一个类比，我们并不真正知道自己是水生动物、陆地动物还是鸟类，对吗？
Or an amphibian, for that matter. And to make the wrong choice, to be an amphibian who's trying to fly, although I'm sure they're out there in the animal kingdom, it's not just a waste of time. It's probably deadly. And not to over-dramatize the failure of finding one's purpose, but I see it that way. Whereas perhaps we could just say that the process of finding one's purpose is to realize, ah, you know, I'm an amphibian. I can go in and out of water, whereas a bunch of other creatures around me stop at the water's edge. Right. Right. And this is really cool. And a bunch of these other things, like these flying things, they can't actually even go in the water. Some of them might be on the surface or dive into it, but they can't do what I can do.
或者，换句话说，变成两栖动物。而且要犯下错误选择成为一个试图飞行的两栖动物，虽然我确定动物王国中有这样的存在，但这不仅是浪费时间，而且很可能是致命的。并不是为了过度夸张地描述寻找自己目标失败，但我是这样看的。也许我们可以说寻找自己目标的过程就是要认识到，啊，你知道，我是个两栖动物。我可以在水中出入，而身边有很多其他生物在水边停下脚步。对，对。这真的很酷。而这些飞行的生物和其他一些东西，实际上甚至不能进入水中。它们中的一些可能停留在水面上或潜入水中，但它们无法像我这样做到。
So the process of self-discovery, it sounds like, is about restricting one's choices to a sort of wedge within the full landscape of options. And, you know, for me, I can certainly recall, after reading mastery, it helped me recall some early seed emotions that I experienced as a very distinct sensation in my body. Can you describe that?
自我发现的过程，听起来好像是将自己的选择限制在所有选项的一个部分之内。对我来说，我确实能回忆起，在阅读《精通》之后，它帮助我回想起我在身体中有明显感觉的一些早期情感的种子。你能描述一下那种感觉吗？
Yeah. Without making it too specific to my unique taste, you know, as a kid, I loved flora and fauna. I loved learning about biology. Sure. I'm not surprised there. But animals and how they move in particular and fish and going to a proper aquarium store for the first time for me and going snorkeling for the first time was like, wow. And as even as I describe it, it's almost like my body floats. I feel it in my left arm of all things. And it feels like there's something to do about it. It's not just that I'm in observation of things that delight me. It's like there's an activation state created within me. Like, I got to do something with this. And typically it's tell everybody about it until they won't listen anymore. But oftentimes it's to also draw those things, to think about them. And I just delight in them. It's a constant source of delight. Seeds such as those, and there are a few other things in that landscape of flora and fauna. And learning about animals and biology, including the human animal, and then organizing information feels so satisfying to me. It's like a drug that. And so it just feels like this, you know, eternal spring of life, right? And so for me, that's what it was. And in 2015, when I was teaching that course, the course I loved, but I was feeling a little bit astray in my scientific career. And then I read mastery. And I realized, yes, I love running a laboratory. I love teaching, but there's something else for me. And it has to do not with a podcast. I didn't even know what a podcast was. I was listening to podcasts at that time. But I wasn't on social media. I had no thoughts of having a podcast. But what I wanted was that feeling in its total number of forms. That's the goal. Get that feeling in as many forms as possible. Right.
是的。不过我不会把它过于具体化以适应我的独特品味。你知道，小孩时候，我就喜欢动植物。我喜欢学习生物学。当然了。我对此并不感到意外。但是动物以及它们的行动方式，鱼以及第一次去专门的水族店和第一次去浮潜，都让我感到，哇。即使我描述它，我感觉自己几乎在飘浮。我感受到了我的左臂的变化。而且感觉好像有些事情需要去做。不仅仅是欣赏让我感到愉悦的事物。就好像在我内心中创造了一种激活状态。就好像我必须对此做些什么。通常情况下，我会告诉每个人听，直到他们不再听为止。但往往我还会去画那些事物，去思考它们。我只是对它们感到愉悦。这是我持续的愉悦之源。如此这般，而在那个动植物的领域还有其他一些种子。学习动物学和生物学，包括人类，然后整理信息对我来说非常满足。对我来说，它就像是一种毒品。所以，它就像是这种永恒的春天的源泉，对吧？对我来说，就是这样的。2015年，当我在教授那门我喜爱的课程时，我对自己的科学职业有一些迷茫。然后我读了《精通》。我意识到，是的，我喜欢经营一个实验室。我喜欢教学，但对我来说还有其他的东西。它与播客无关。当时我甚至不知道什么是播客。我当时正在听播客。但我并没有参与社交媒体。我从未想过要有一个播客。但我想要的是那种多种形式的感觉。那就是目标。以尽可能多的形式获得那种感觉。对吧。
That's absolutely perfect because the connection to what I'm talking about, it's not an intellectual thing. It's visceral. It's emotional. It's physical. Right. And you feel it in your body. And when you're doing it, it's like it's at your level. It's like you're swimming with the current. You feel that things are easy. Everything clicks together. There's a delight. Not everything is going to be delightful. There's going to be tedium involved. There's going to be moments of boredom. But you're able to withstand the moments of boredom because you feel that deep overall connection. So, yes, that's precisely what I'm talking about.
这真的很完美，因为我所说的与我正在讨论的事情没有智力上的关联。它是一种直观的体验。是情感的。是身体的。没错。你能在身体中感受到它。当你做这件事的时候，感觉就像是达到了你的水平。就像你正在顺水游泳一样。你感觉事情变得轻松。一切都顺畅地结合在一起。有一种愉悦感。并不是每件事都会令人愉快。会出现很多单调乏味的时刻。但你能够忍受这些无聊的时刻，因为你感到了深层的整体连接。所以，是的，这正是我所说的。
I mean, for me, it's a little bit similar thing is I said about words. But the other thing that I was obsessed with when I was a kid was early human ancestors. Don't ask me why I just was so obsessed with our ancestors millions of years ago and how it's possible to be living here in the 60s or 70s with cars and everything. But to come to where we are now. And I wrote a short story when I was eight years old about a vulture. It was written from the point of view of a vulture watching the first humans kind of emerge on the planet. I'm sure it was absolutely awful dreadful. But the weird thing is, I'm writing a new book and all I'm doing in that book is going into early humans. And I feel like a kid again, I'm so excited. I'm so happy. So I can very much relate to your story.
我的意思是，对我来说，这有点类似于我之前提到的词语。但是当我还是个孩子的时候，我还迷恋早期的人类祖先。别问我为什么，我只是非常着迷于数百万年前的祖先以及如何在60年代或70年代的现代社会中生活下来。然后当我八岁的时候，我写了一个关于秃鹰的短篇故事。这个故事是从一个秃鹰的观察视角写的，它观察到人类在地球上逐渐出现。我敢肯定那个故事绝对糟糕透顶。但奇怪的是，我现在正在写一本新书，书中都是关于早期人类的内容。我感觉自己又回到了小时候，我非常兴奋，非常开心。所以我非常能理解你的故事。
You mentioned these five different forms of intelligence or frames of mind if you refer to them. And I'm certainly aware that I lean towards a more intellectual interest. Although, as you pointed out, the excitement, the delight is visceral. And the actions are actions. They're over the body, ultimately. One has to draw, speak, write books, etc. To transmute that excitement into something real.
你提到了五种不同的智力形式或心智模式，如果你指的是它们的话。我也非常清楚自己更倾向于更加理性的兴趣。尽管如你所说，兴奋和愉悦是直观的感受，但行动却是实实在在的。最终，这些行动发生在身体上。人们必须通过绘画、言语、写书等方式将这种兴奋转化为真实的事物。
For people that are not as intellectually tuned, but maybe are kinesthetically tuned, for instance. I can only wonder what that's like. I'm not completely uncoordinated. But I don't think I have a kinesthetic attunement or frame of mind. But I, for instance, had a podcast listener mention that they think in feels that they literally experience thought as a sort of a patchwork of bodily sensations. And that thought for them is not of the stuff from the neck up, but only from the neck down, which to me was really intriguing.
对于那些智力不如人，但可能在动触反应方面较为敏感的人来说，我只能想象那是什么感觉。我并不完全缺乏协调性，但我不认为我有一种身体感知或思维方式。举个例子，有一位播客听众提到他们以感觉来思考，以身体感觉的拼贴形式来体验思维。对他们来说，思维并不仅仅限于脑袋上方的东西，而是仅仅来自脖子以下的感觉。对我来说，这确实很有趣。
And so I only raise this because there have to be, as you pointed out, there's an infinite number of different sort of orientations based on our unique DNA and experience. But what do you think explains why these particular seeds, or as you pointed out, like the direction that the grain runs in the brain? I mean, it's partially going to be nature. It's going to be DNA. But we're talking about this as if there's some exciting or awe-inspiring or delightful thing that captures us. Can it be the other way too? Can it be, you know, one has a bad experience as a child in an intellectual environment and then decides, you know, I'm going in the things of the body feel good. Things of the mind, of intellect feels bad. And does it matter whether or not we are drawn to our purpose by recognizing what we love or what we hate or are both useful?
因此我提出这个问题，因为正如你所指出的，基于我们独特的DNA和经历，存在着无限多种不同的取向。但是你认为是什么解释了为什么这些特定的种子，或者正如你指出的大脑中谷物生长方向呢？我的意思是，部分原因可能是基因，是DNA。但我们谈论这个问题的时候，仿佛有一种令人兴奋、令人敬畏或让我们感到愉快的东西吸引着我们。是否也可以相反呢？也就是说，一个人在童年时期有过不好的智力环境经历，然后决定去追求身体上的快感，而智力上的事物则让他感觉不好。而我们被什么吸引，无论是因为我们喜欢还是因为我们讨厌，这是否重要？两者都有用吗？
Oh, they're both very, very useful. You know, a lot of intelligence is non-verbal. We think in terms of images, we're very much infected by the emotions of other people. So I know, for instance, my mother is very, very interested in history. She's obsessed with history. And I probably absorbed her interest in history. I don't think there's a genetic gene for that interest, you know. So you're going to absorb things from your parents as well, so it's not all, just genetic. But yeah, what you hate will have a big thing. But the problem with doing that is if you go into a direction and you're in elementary school, et cetera, and they force you to learn math and you hate it, what it tends to do is it turns you off from learning in general. You think, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to be disciplined. I don't want to go through anything because it's painful. It doesn't delete anywhere. It's not me, it's frustration. It turns you off from learning in general.
哦，它们都非常非常有用。你知道，很多智力是非语言的。我们思考的形式是图像，我们会受到他人情感的影响。所以，我知道，比如说我妈妈对历史非常非常感兴趣。她对历史迷恋。我可能也吸收了她对历史的兴趣。我觉得这种兴趣并没有基因遗传的因素在里面。所以你也会从父母那里吸收东西，所以不是完全遗传的。但是，你对什么讨厌会占据很大位置。但是做这样的事情的问题在于，如果你进入小学等阶段，他们强迫你学习数学，而你又讨厌它，它往往会让你对学习产生厌恶。你会觉得，我不想，我不想，我不想被规矩约束。我不想经历任何痛苦，它并没有任何用处。它并不是我，它是挫败感。它让你对学习产生厌恶。
So it's really, really important for a child to have the love experience as early as possible so that they can know what they hate and why they hate it, right? And then they can rebel and they can go into that field as opposed to, I hate learning. I hate discipline. I hate studying. I hate trying things over and over again. If you're kinesthetically oriented, and you know, a part of me, I understand that because I love sports is you have to practice. It's going to take a lot of, you're not going to instantly be good at something, right? And that's going to require a love of it, right?
所以，对于一个孩子来说，尽早获得爱的经历真的非常非常重要，这样他们就能知道他们讨厌什么以及为什么讨厌，对吗？然后他们可以反叛，可以进入那个领域，而不是讨厌学习、讨厌纪律、讨厌学习、讨厌反复尝试。如果你是运动触觉导向的，并且你知道，对我来说的一部分，我理解是因为我喜欢运动，你必须练习。你不会一下子就变得擅长某个事情，对吧？那需要对它产生爱，对吧？
But if your math experience, because I hate learning shit, you're not, it's going to transfer to sports. You're going to hate discipline in general. So it's very important for parents to let that child have at least glimmers of that love moment. I know for me, when I finished college and I entered the work world, I had to get a job. I got worked in journalism. I hated it. I hated working for other people. I hated office politics. I hated all the egos. I hated the smarminess. I hated the lack of quality. It was all just about making money and getting things out there. And then I worked in Hollywood. I hated Hollywood. I hated working in Hollywood. That formed me very much. Made me go in the direction that I went in. But only from the basis of I knew that I wanted to be a writer. So that's very important that it's not just hate. It can form you. But there also has to be that positive, deep emotional love of something that also is grounded in you in some way.
如果你数学经历不好，因为我讨厌学习这些东西，那么这个情况可能会转移到体育上。你会讨厌纪律性的事情。所以父母让孩子至少拥有一些喜爱的时刻非常重要。对我来说，当我大学毕业进入职场时，我必须找一份工作。我从事新闻工作，但我讨厌它。我讨厌为他人工作。我讨厌办公室政治。我讨厌所有的自我意识。我讨厌那种虚情假意。我讨厌缺乏质量的工作。一切都只是为了赚钱和推销产品。然后我进入了好莱坞工作。我讨厌好莱坞。我讨厌在好莱坞工作。这对我产生了很大的影响，让我朝着我选择的方向发展。但这仅仅基于我知道我想成为一名作家。所以这非常重要，不仅仅是讨厌。它可以影响你的人生轨迹。但同时必须还有那种积极的、深情的对某种事物的喜爱，这种喜爱也必须以某种方式根植于你的内心。
What you just said really highlights the fact that energy and motivation can come from either pressure, desire for something or desire to get away from something. And earlier when you were talking about how we are so much more engaged and driven towards things that stir us emotionally. And actually we know based on the neuroscience, as you know, to ensure that only by the release of certain neurochemicals in the brain and body would our brain have any reason to change. If you don't feel agitation and you can do everything that you're trying to do, of course your brain wouldn't change. Why would it? That agitation is a signature of the neurochemicals that are saying, hey, something's different now. You might need to do something different, including rewire yourself.
你刚才说的真的突出了一个事实，即能量和动力可以来自压力、对某事的渴望或对逃离某事的渴望。而当你之前谈到我们对那些引发情感共鸣的事物更加投入和有动力时，我们实际上根据神经科学的了解知道，只有通过大脑和身体释放特定的神经化学物质，我们的大脑才会有任何改变的理由。如果你不感到烦躁，而且你能做到你想要做的一切，当然你的大脑不会改变。为什么会改变呢？这种烦躁是神经化学物质的标志，它们在告诉你，“嘿，现在有些不同了。你可能需要做些不同的事情，包括重新调整自己”。
Right. And that can come from positive or negative experiences. Of course. Now I'm obsessed with this idea of energy. I mean, we all want to have more energy in focus. And normally we hear about the concept of energy in the context of caloric energy. Like what should we eat and when and how much? And we need to get sleep. But what you're really referring to is neural energy. Like the engagement of ourselves that's sitting there ready to be engaged, but it requires the right experiential macronutrients.
没错。这种能量可以来自积极或消极的经历。当然。现在，我对能量的概念着迷了。我的意思是，我们都希望拥有更多的精力和专注力。通常，我们听到的能量概念是指卡路里能量。比如我们应该吃什么、何时吃、吃多少？我们也需要休息。但你真正指的是神经能量。就是我们那里准备好接受刺激的自身参与度，但它需要适当的经验性营养素。
Right. The experiential micronutrients, as opposed to, of course, we need good nutrition, but that's not sufficient. It's necessary, but not sufficient. So would you say that when we are, let's say, since a good number of our listeners are in adulthood, you know, from our 20s on, that the things that excite us as adults, that really generate some feeling of readiness or grab our attention, are still informative toward guiding our decisions about best life and life purpose?
当然，我们需要良好的营养，但实际上，仅靠营养是不够的。这是必要的，但不足够。所以你会说，当我们成年后（比如从20岁开始），那些令我们兴奋、真正引起我们注意的事情，对于指导我们做出最好的人生和人生目标决策仍然起到一定作用吗？
Well, what do you, what exactly do you mean by that? I mean, like, because there are things that excite you in a kind of a quick way, like, you know, where you have to relieve some tension and there's entertainment and there's things that kind of give you pretty immediate gratification. And there's the larger picture of something that will give you fulfillment over years to come. So you can feel that when you're older and you can pay attention to it. But a lot of the time is we're paying too much attention to the immediate pleasures of life, to what gives us instant gratification, and that's what we're grabbing for. This is a much more kind of deeper process that involves that digging that I was saying. It's deeper than just kind of, I like this, I don't like that, you know, kind of thing. It's more something macro than just that.
嗯，你的意思是什么呢？我的意思是，有些事情能够以一种较快的方式激励你，你需要释放一些紧张情绪，有娱乐活动，有能够立即带给你满足感的事物。还有关于未来几年能够带给你满足感的更大的全貌。所以，当你年纪大了，你能够感受到这些并且能够专注于它们。但很多时候，我们过于关注生活中那种即时的快乐，对于能够带给我们即刻满足感的事物，我们总是追求不已。这是一个更为深入的过程，需要像我之前说的那样去深入挖掘。它比仅仅是"我喜欢这个，我不喜欢那个"之类的更为宏观。
And so when you're in your 20s or in your 30s or your 40s, you want to be paying attention to yourself. And the problem with people in the world today is you're not paying attention to yourself. You're not inside your own head. You don't hear those voices. You don't hear what you love, what you like anymore. Because as I said, there's so many of these other distractions going on. And so you're always like attuned to what other people like, right? Because you're in social media. This is what people are following. This is what they're interested in. As opposed to disengaging, backing off from that and looking at yourself and going through the process of, that's not me actually. I don't really like that. You know, and so what you're talking about is, I think very profound is levels of frustration or anxiety or of definite signals that you must pay attention to. That they're telling you, this isn't a good direction for you. This is a waste of time for you. And in general, I tell people self-awareness, being able to hear those voices to understand that your frustration is telling you something. And sometimes you just act on it without understanding it. But understanding why you're frustrated, why you don't like your career, why you're not happy about where you're going, is the key to everything. It will open up. It will actually be able, even in your 30s, to return you to that childhood inclination. But if you can't listen to where those emotions come from, then they're useless. They're not teaching you anything.
所以当你处于20多岁、30多岁或40多岁时，你应该关注自己。而今天世界上的问题是，你没有关注自己。你没有进入自己的内心。你听不到那些声音。你不再听得到你喜欢的事物、你热爱的事物。因为就如我所说的，有很多其他的干扰。所以你总是对其他人喜欢的事情保持警觉，对吗？因为你处于社交媒体中。这是人们在追随的事物。这是他们感兴趣的。与其如此，不如摆脱这些，关注自己，并经历这样的过程：这其实不是我真正喜欢的。你所说的，我认为非常深刻，是层次不同的挫败、焦虑或明确的信号，你必须关注。它们在告诉你，这不是适合你的方向。这对你来说是浪费时间的。总的来说，我告诉人们自我意识，能够听到那些声音并理解你的挫败正在告诉你些什么。有时候，你可能会在不理解的情况下采取行动。但理解自己为什么感到沮丧、为什么不喜欢自己的职业、为什么对自己的前途不满意，是一切的关键。它将打开大门。它实际上可以使你即使在30多岁时，重新回到童年时的倾向。但如果你听不到这些情绪的来源，那么它们就是无用的。它们不会教会你任何东西。
As we all know, quality nutrition influences, of course, our physical health, but also our mental health and our cognitive functioning, our memory, our ability to learn new things and to focus. And we know that one of the most important features of high quality nutrition is making sure that we get enough vitamins and minerals from high quality, unprocessed or minimally processed sources, as well as enough probiotics and prebiotics and fiber to support basically all the cellular functions in our body, including the gut microbiome.
众所周知，优质的营养不仅影响我们的身体健康，还会影响我们的心理健康、认知功能、记忆力、学习能力和专注力。我们也知道，高质量营养的最重要特征之一是确保我们从高质量、未加工或极少加工的食物中摄取足够的维生素和矿物质，以及足够的益生菌、益生元和纤维来支持我们体内的所有细胞功能，包括肠道微生物群的健康。
Now I, like most everybody, try to get optimal nutrition from whole foods, ideally, mostly from minimally processed or non-processed foods. However, one of the challenges that I and so many other people face is getting enough servings of high quality fruits and vegetables per day, as well as fiber and probiotics that often accompany those fruits and vegetables.
现在，像大多数人一样，我也努力通过整食来获得最佳营养，理想情况下，主要是通过几乎未加工或未经加工的食物。然而，我和很多其他人面临的挑战之一是每天摄入足够的高质量水果和蔬菜，以及通常与这些水果和蔬菜一同摄入的纤维和益生菌。
That's why way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, I started drinking AG1. And so I'm delighted that AG1 is sponsoring the Huberman Lab podcast. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still drink AG1 once or twice a day is that it provides all of my foundational nutritional needs. That is, it provides insurance that I get the proper amounts of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics and fiber to ensure optimal mental health, physical health and performance.
这就是为什么早在2012年、还没有播客的时候，我开始饮用AG1。因此，我很高兴AG1赞助Huberman Lab播客。我开始服用AG1的原因，以及至今每天饮用一两次的原因是，它提供了我所有基本的营养需求。也就是说，它提供了确保我获得足够维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维素的保证，以确保最佳的精神健康、身体健康和表现。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim a special offer. They're giving away five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim that special offer.
如果您想尝试AG1，您可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman来获取一份特别优惠。他们免费赠送五个旅行包以及一年供应的维生素D3K2。再次提醒，要享受这个特别优惠，请访问drinkag1.com/huberman。
So it sounds like one of the goals is to engage in what I'll just call for the moment, unadulterated self-referencing. Unadulterated in the all senses of the word because as a child, as you point out, at stages of life that are before puberty, they're literally pre-sexual, which I think is important, right? Because puberty, to me, as a neurobiologist who started off as a developmental neurobiologist, I can tell you that puberty is the most profound transformation that the brain undergoes in the entire lifespan.
所以听起来，其中一个目标就是参与我现在暂且称之为纯粹自我参照。纯粹指的是字面上的意义，因为正如你指出的，对于处于青春期之前的某个阶段的孩子们来说，他们从字面上来说还没有进入性阶段，我认为这一点很重要，对吗？因为对我来说，作为一名一开始从事发育神经生物学的神经生物学家，我可以告诉您，青春期是大脑在整个生命周期中经历的最深刻的转变。
There's absolutely no question about it. Everything is different after puberty because of all of the new relational dynamics that become apparent and our potential involvement in them. It's not talked about enough how dramatically puberty changes the brain. We are different people before and after puberty. The hormones are there and it's not just changes in how we view the world, but changes in how the world views us. And not just through the lens of sexuality, but also expectation of what we are capable of, what we are responsible for or not responsible for. Our learning capacity, puberty is like this, it's also the most rapid stage of aging in our entire lifespan.
毫无疑问，一切都会在青春期后发生彻底改变，这是因为出现了许多新的人际关系动态，我们可能会陷身其中。我们并没有充分地讨论青春期对大脑的巨大影响。我们在青春期前后是不同的人。激素存在，并不仅仅是改变我们对世界的看法，而且还改变了世界对我们的看法。这种看法不仅仅包括性方面，还包括对我们能力、责任以及不负责任的期望。我们的学习能力也会发生变化，青春期就是这样，它也是我们一生中衰老最迅速的阶段。
Those kids that go home for summer and then come back, like shaving. I wasn't a late bloomer, I had a long protracted puberty, but I remember those kids. I'm sure we all remember those kids. Everything changes.
那些在暑假回家后再回来的孩子，像是剃须一样。我虽然不是发育迟缓，但我记得那些孩子。我相信我们都记得那些孩子。一切都会改变。
And so I think prior to puberty, these seeds, as you described them, of delight or of resistance to things, I think they are unadulterated. They are not contaminated by the voices and expectations of others. I can see the challenge of reaching back to those as an adult.
因此，我认为在青春期之前，正如你所描述的，那些喜悦或对事物的抵抗的种子是纯净的。它们不被他人的声音和期望所污染。作为一个成年人，我可以理解回到那些纯真感受的挑战。
I wonder if this relates to something that I've heard you talk about before, although perhaps not as much as some of the other topics you've discussed publicly, which is the real versus the false sublime. Could you perhaps just define for us what sublime really is, what a sublime experience is, and the distinction between real and false sublime experiences? Because I feel like this relates to finding that seed. It's about finding authentic seeds within us as opposed to when emotions can be distracting and misleading.
我想知道这是否与你之前谈到过的某些话题有关，虽然可能没有其他一些你公开讨论的话题那么多，那就是真正与虚假的崇高之间的关系。你能否为我们简要定义一下什么是崇高，什么是崇高的体验，并解释一下真实与虚假崇高体验的区别？因为我觉得这与发现那颗种子有关。它是关于在我们内心中寻找真实的种子，而不是当情绪让我们分心和误导的时候。
Wow, I never thought, I never made that connection. It's the book that I'm writing right now, so thank you for that. I have to think about that. I'm actually writing a book on the sublime. And I have several ways of illustrating. I generally like to use a metaphor.
哇，我从来没有想过，从来没有想到这个联系。那正是我现在正在写的书，所以谢谢你提醒我。我需要考虑一下这个。实际上，我正在写一本关于崇高的书。我有几种展现的方式。一般我喜欢使用隐喻来描绘。
And the metaphor is that being a human being, being a social human being, living in a particular culture, means that you live inside of a circle. And that circle of that time are the conventions of thinking, of ideas that are acceptable, of behavior that is acceptable. This is where you can go mentally, where you can go physically, all the codes and conventions. So that circle for ancient Egypt and for 21st century America, they're obviously very different, but it's the same circle. It's the same limiting factor. You're not supposed to go outside of it. These are thoughts, experiences, behavior. You're not supposed to do.
这个比喻是指作为人类，作为社会人类，生活在特定文化中，意味着你生活在一个圈子里。这个时代的圈子是指接受的思维范式、可接受的观念和可接受的行为。这是你可以在精神上、身体上生活的范围，包括所有的规范和习惯。因此，古埃及和21世纪美国的这个圈子显然非常不同，但本质上是相同的。它们都是限制因素，你不应该超越它们。这是一些你不应该有的思想、经历和行为。
The sublime is what lies just outside that circle. The word sublime comes from on the threshold of. It's like, here's a door, and the sublime is literally at the threshold of the door you're looking out into something else. And the quintessential sublime experience is a near-death experience. You're standing on the doorway, the threshold of death itself. And so in my book, I'm illustrating the different kinds of sublime experiences that you can have in relation to the cosmos, in the relation to thinking about being alive. Just being alive is the strangest sensation you could possibly have.
崇高就是位于那个圆圈外面的东西。崇高一词来源于门槛的含义。就像是，这里有一扇门，崇高就恰好在你望着门外的门槛之上。而最典型的崇高体验就是一次临死经历。你站在那道门前，就是死亡本身的门槛。所以在我的书中，我描述了与宇宙关联的各种崇高体验，以及与思考活着的感受有关的崇高体验。单单活着本身就是你可能拥有的最奇特的感觉。
I know that very personally, after my stroke, I go into childhood, chapter on childhood, and how sublime your own childhood was. I go into animals, relation to animals. I go, I have a chapter about the brain. Chapter about love. I'm working right now on a chapter about history. But what I'm trying to say is the human brain is wired for these experiences. It's wired for transcendental experiences that take us out of the narrow little realm that we live in. Because we're aware of our death as the only animal truly conscious of its own mortality, and it finds the hell out of us. And the idea that we can see something larger than just the banal parts of our life is a doorway that allows us to kind of transcend the moment, to feel connected to something larger, to feel connected to some power in the cosmos, to evolution itself. And so we're wired for that. And I'm writing a chapter now about 40,000 years ago at the moment where I think the sublime was born. It's a story that I'm trying to illustrate right now with our upper Paleolithic ancestors. So it's deep inside of us. We need it. We have to have it. And the 21st century, we have very few avenues for it, any real avenues. Religion used to be the main kind of wave of accessing this.
我非常亲身地了解到这一点，中风之后，我沉浸在童年时光中，写了一章关于童年，讲述了你自己的童年是多么美好。我还写了一章关于动物，以及与动物的关系。我还写了一章关于大脑，一章关于爱。现在我正在写一章关于历史。但我想说的是，人类的大脑天生具备这些体验的能力。它天生适应超然的体验，能让我们走出我们生活的狭小领域。因为我们意识到我们的死亡，作为唯一真正意识到自己必死的动物，我们对此深感恐惧。而我们能够看到比我们生活中平庸的部分更宏大的东西，这是一扇向大宇宙某种力量建立联系的门户，向进化本身建立联系。因此，我们天生就具备这种能力。我现在正在写一章关于4万年前，那个我认为崇高产生的时刻。这是一个我正在用我们的上古时代祖先描绘的故事。所以这是深藏在我们内心深处的。我们需要它。我们必须拥有它。而在21世纪，我们几乎没有真正的途径可以获得它。宗教曾经是主要的取得这种体验的方式。
And so because it's so deep, we reach for false forms of the sublime that give us the sense that we're transcending, but it's not at all because sublime has to come from within. It's an experience that you have that you're generating in your own mind and your own experience. The false sublime comes from outside. It comes from drugs. It comes from alcohol. It comes from shopping. It comes from online rage. It comes from joining a cause and just getting out all your aggression and violence. It comes from causes. It comes from addictions. It gives you a sense. It calms you down. It makes you feel like there's something else going on in life besides your job that you're sick of. But it's not real. It's not lasting. It's false. It's an illusion. It's not based on anything real. It's not connecting to that deep part of human nature that's wired for these experiences. So what happens is you have to have more and more and more and more of it. You have to have more of this rush. You need more of the drug. You need more of the alcohol. You need more of the sex. You need more of the porn. It's never going to satisfy you. But the real sublime, you don't have that feeling. It's like it's transformative. Once you feel it, it lasts for you for the rest of your life. It's what Maslow again called the peak experience. So that's the difference between the faults and the real sublime. I haven't quite connected it to what you were saying, but if I think about it, I think you're on something very interesting. Maybe the connection I was trying to draw was doesn't hold.
所以因为它是如此深沉，我们追求虚假的崇高形式，给我们带来超越的感觉，但这完全不是因为崇高必须来自内心。它是你在自己的思想和经验中创造出来的经历。虚假的崇高来自外部。它来自于药物、酒精、购物、网络愤怒。它来自于加入某个事业，释放你所有的侵略和暴力。它来自于各种事业。它来自于各种瘾。它让你有种感觉。它让你平静下来。它让你觉得除了你讨厌的工作以外，生活中还有其他的事情发生。但这不是真实的。它不是持久的。它是虚假的。它是幻觉。它没有基于任何真实的东西。它没有连接到人类天性中那个渴望这些经历的深层部分。所以你必须得到越来越多的它。你需要更多的兴奋。你需要更多的药物。你需要更多的酒精。你需要更多的性。你需要更多的色情。它永远不能满足你。但真正的崇高，你没有那种感觉。它就像是一种转化。一旦你感受到它，它会伴随你一生。这就是马斯洛所说的巅峰体验。所以这就是虚假崇高和真正崇高之间的区别。我还没有把它与你所说的联系起来，但如果我仔细思考一下，我觉得你说的很有趣。也许我试图建立的那种联系是无法成立的。
But yeah, for me, those early experiences of seeing things that just delighted me in a way that felt like that not only is, the thought process is a long time ago, went something like, oh my goodness, I can't believe this exists. This is so cool. This is the coolest thing. And so clearly created an activation state within me. But then there was also a thought and a feeling of, again, a lot of this is not truly pre-verbal. I could speak at that age. But it was that of me and I'm of it. There's a connection there. And then there's something to do about this.
是的，对我来说，那些早期经历让我看到一些令我愉悦的事物，它们不仅仅是一种思维过程，而是一段很久以前的经历，就像，哦天哪，我简直不敢相信这个存在。这太酷了。这是最酷的事情。这在我内心激发了一种状态。但同时也有一种思考和感受，再次强调，这其中很多东西并不完全是无言的。我当时能说话。但是它是我的一部分，我与它有连接。然后，我需要对此做点什么。
The activation state created in the body was, I need to learn more about this. I need to tell people about this. I need to think about this. I need more examples of this and see whether or not they're all like this, etc. So certainly it meets some of the criteria of a sublime experience. And I knew again when I was in graduate school and again when I was this young professor about to transition to tenure that I knew it was going to do something different. It was as if I was on the threshold of something, but I didn't know what that next thing was. But I could trust it because of that early experience of knowing that's the threat. I'm an amphibian. This is my environment. And you're an amphibian too. And we're different amphibians, but we're going to be amphibians together.
在身体中产生的激活状态，让我渴望更多了解。我需要告诉别人这件事。我需要思考这个问题。我需要更多的例子，并观察它们是否都如此。所以，它肯定符合某些壮丽体验的标准。当我还在研究生阶段，又当我即将晋升终身职位的年轻教授的时候，我又再次感受到了它的存在。就像我站在某个门槛前，但我不知道下一个阶段是什么。但由于早年的经历，我相信它。我知道那就是威胁。我是两栖动物。这是我的环境。而你也是两栖动物。虽然我们是不同的两栖动物，但我们都将成为两栖动物的伙伴。
And then there's a permanence to it that it does seem to transcend time. I'm obsessed with time perception. So I have to be careful not to go off on a tangent about that. But the human brain's ability to find slice or macro slice time is incredible. And it's been said of not just addictions, but also interactions with toxic people that they murder time. That humans have a, I think it was young, I'll look it up. But one of the great psychologists said something to the extent that addictive behaviors, thought patterns, substances are humans' attempts to murder time so that they don't have to address their mortality. Yeah. And that's always made a lot of sense to me.
然后，它给人一种恒久性，似乎超越了时间。我对时间感知着迷。所以我必须小心不要离题。但是人类大脑能够感知时间的小片段或宏观时间是令人难以置信的。人们说，不仅成瘾，与有毒人的互动也会让时间消逝。有一位伟大的心理学家曾经说过，成瘾行为、思维模式和物质都是人们试图消耗时间，以避免面对自己的有限生命。是的，这对我来说总是很有道理。
Yeah, we say kill time is for expression. Kill time through passive engagement, but also kill time through trying to get overwhelmed or overtaken by an experience or a substance. As opposed to when you're truly connected, you have that sense of flow and three hours can pass by and you're not even aware of it. So time is a totally subjective experience. It can be extremely slow and tedious and you feel very depressed or it can pass by. But it passes by without you even noticing it. And it's a wondrous experience. When I'm deep in my writing, I'm not aware of the time passing. I'm so involved. I'm so immersed. It's a deeply, deeply pleasurable experience of time. It is sublime.
是的，我们说消磨时间只是为了表达。通过被动参与来消磨时间，也可以通过试图沉浸在某种经历或物质中来消磨时间。与真正连接时相反，你会有一种流动感，三个小时过去了你甚至都没有意识到。所以时间是一种完全主观的体验。它可以变得极其缓慢和乏味，让你感到非常沮丧，或者它可以悄无声息地流逝。这是一种令人惊叹的经历。当我全神贯注地写作时，我不会意识到时间的流逝。我是如此投入，如此沉浸其中。这是一种非常非常愉悦的时间体验。它是崇高的。
And yeah, so I agree with you. I think your distinction is very interesting. I'm eagerly awaiting your next book, but we won't rush you. Well, I'm so immersed in it that I could talk for hours because I also have a chapter in there about what I call the Daemon, which is like that voice inside of you. That speaks to you and I'm writing a whole chapter about how sublime that is when you connect to that voice. So you are spot on. There is something very much connected to mastery in this book, but it's the next chapter that I'm writing. Fantastic. Can't wait.
是的，所以我同意你的观点。我觉得你的区分非常有意思。我迫不及待地期待着你的下一本书，但我们不会催你。嗯，我太沉浸其中了，以至于我可以讲上几个小时，因为我在那本书中也有一个关于我称之为“守护神”的章节，就像你内心的那个声音。那个和你交谈的声音，我正在写一整章关于当你与那个声音联系起来时是多么崇高的事情。所以你说得对。这本书中有很多与精通相关的内容，但这是我正在写的下一章。太棒了。等不及了。
I can't wait. I'd like to shift slightly to a topic that you've written extensively about, which is power. And not just power, but also seduction, which you've written extensively about. And of course, you've written about finding one's purpose. So tell me if the framework that I've just given myself liberty to create is an accurate one. And if it's not, I'm hoping that it's not in perhaps some interesting ways.
我迫不及待了。我想稍微转向你广泛写作过的一个话题，那就是权力。不仅仅是权力，还有你广泛写作过的诱惑。当然，你也写过关于找到一个人的目标的文章。所以告诉我，我刚刚创造的框架是否准确。如果不准确，希望可以以一些有趣的方式改变。
So to me, you talk about and we will talk about power as a resource. It's something that it's there as a resource. It could be used or not used. And I think of seduction as one form of exchange between an individual. So there's a verb associated with seduction power. I'm thinking of more as a noun in this context. You're the word guy. And then, you know, purpose is really about finding like what end or ends one is going to devote power, seduction, and the other forces that allow human beings to interact with each other in the world.
对我来说，你谈到的，我们将要讨论的是权力作为一种资源。它是一种存在的资源，可以被利用或者不被利用。而我认为诱惑是个体之间一种交换的形式。所以，诱惑权力有一个与之相关的动词。在这个语境中，我更多地将其视为一个名词。而你是个善于运用文字的人。然后，目的实际上是关于找到一个人将要投入权力、诱惑和其他让人类在世界上相互交往的力量的目标或目标们。
But power as a resource that can be expressed in different ways and accessed in different ways. Maybe we could just explore that a little bit because, you know, when we hear the word power, I think a lot of people kind of brace themselves. Like, here we go. Someone's going to try and have power over me. This is about manipulation and so on and so forth.
但是权力作为一种资源可以以不同的方式表达和获得。也许我们可以稍微探讨一下，因为你知道，当我们听到“权力”这个词时，我觉得很多人都会有些警惕。好像又要有人试图对我施加权力了。这就涉及到操纵等等的问题。
But I learned pretty early on that every career endeavor, there's power dynamics. There's mentor mentee. There teachers and their students and both have power. In inter romantic relationship, there's a power exchange. There are yeses in their nose. There are maybes. There are cauvert and overt contracts. I'll do this because I want to. You'll do this because you want to. Great. Sounds great. Overt contract. They're also covert contracts. Well, I don't feel safe doing that. So what I'll do is I'll take something on the interaction that you're not aware of so that I can sort of ease my sense of danger and make myself the illusion of feeling safe. And all sorts of kind of complicated human dynamics that have to do with us having this forebrain thing that can do all of that gymnastics.
但我很早就学到了，在每个职业努力中都存在权力关系。有导师和学生，有老师和学生，每个人都有自己的权力。在感情关系中，存在权力的交换。有肯定的和否定的回应。有可能的和可能不可能的事情。有明确和隐晦的合约。我会做这个是因为我愿意。你会做这个是因为你愿意。很好，听起来不错。明确的合约。同时也存在隐晦的合约。嗯，我不感觉做那个很安全。所以我会在你不知道的情况下接受某种互动，以便我能减轻危险感，给自己创造一种安全感的幻觉。这都跟我们拥有这个前脑可以做所有这些花样的复杂人际关系有关。
So maybe we could start very simply by just saying, you know, how would you define power in terms of its functional definition, like in inter personal relations? And then why do you think power is so essential to all relationships? That's really what I'd like to get to. Why is it so essential? Why couldn't it be something else?
也许我们可以从一个非常简单的角度开始，比如说，你会如何在人际关系中以功能定义的方式来定义权力呢？然后你认为为什么权力对于所有关系都如此重要呢？这真的是我想要了解的。为什么它如此重要？为什么它不能是其他的东西呢？
Well, the way I define powers, I try and take it away from that kind of negative context that most people have and that you brought up. And I bring it to something very primitive and very primal. The way the human being is wired, the feeling that we have no control of our environment and in the earliest period, it was literally over our environment and wild animals and nature and climate, et cetera. But now the sense that you have no control over your career, over your children, over your parents is deeply, deeply emissirating. And it compels us to act in certain ways, either attempts to find positive ways of power or doing what you call covert ways of getting power, you know, passive aggressive, traditionally passive aggressive means.
嗯，就我对力量的定义来说，我试着远离大多数人那种消极的语境，正如你所提到的。我把它转化为一种非常原始和本能的东西。人类天生的方式，我们对环境的感觉和在最早期的时候真正对环境、野生动物、自然和气候等的控制。但现在，你对自己的职业、孩子和父母毫无掌控感，这是一种极度令人沮丧的感觉。它迫使我们以某种方式行动，要么试图寻找积极的力量方式，要么采取你所称之为隐晦获取力量的方式，你知道，也就是传统的隐晦侵权手段。
So it's deeply wired in us to want a degree of control over the immediate environment and immediate events. We can never have complete control and the idea of having complete control is nonsense and it would actually be very ugly because you want a degree of letting go and letting circumstances come to you, et cetera, et cetera.
因此，我们对于控制自己周围环境和即时事件有着根深蒂固的渴望。我们永远无法完全掌控，要求完全控制是荒谬的，而且这样做实际上会变得很丑陋，因为你需要一定程度的放手，让情况自然发展等等。
So the sense of you want to feel like with other people and relationships that you can influence them, that you can move them in a certain direction, either to get you to love you and treat you better or either to stop annoying irritating behaviors or either to, you know, wake up and find and do productive activity with your children, et cetera. You want to have the ability to influence people, to move them in a certain direction, either in your interest or in their interest, right? And once you have that need and every single human being, ever who's ever lived has that need, we often don't recognize it because we're embarrassed by it. We're embarrassed by our desire for power, for our need to control every human being has it, right?
所以你想要与其他人和人际关系建立某种联系的感觉，想要影响他们，将他们引导到某个方向，可能是让他们爱你并更好地对待你，或者是让他们停止令人厌烦的行为，亦或是让他们意识到并与孩子一同进行有意义的活动等等。你希望拥有影响他人的能力，将他们引导至某个方向，无论是符合你自己的利益还是他们自己的利益，对吗？而且一旦你认识到了这个需求，每一个曾经生活过的人都有这样的需求，我们通常没有意识到它，因为我们为此感到尴尬。我们对于权力的欲望和控制的需求感到尴尬，而每个人都有它，对吧？
And it's not easy because human beings are complicated. They don't, if you say, do this, and you're talking to your son, he'll do the opposite or he'll do something else. You can't just force people in a direction, right? By being overt and telling them this is what you need to do. You create resentment. You create an enemy. They may say, yes, yes, daddy, yes, husband, I'll do what you say, but they're going to resist you deep down inside, right? So people are tricky. They wear masks. They pretend to say one thing and they do another. They have their egos and you inadvertently wound their egos or trip them in some way, and they react in a way that you don't expect.
这并不容易，因为人类是复杂的。如果你告诉你的儿子做某事，他可能会做相反的或做其他事情。你不能强迫别人朝某个方向行动，对吗？通过直接告诉他们该做什么，你只会产生怨恨。
你会制造敌人。他们可能会说，好的，爸爸，好的，丈夫，我会按你说的做。但他们心底深处会对你产生抵抗。所以人们是狡猾的。他们戴着面具。他们假装说一件事情，然后做另一件。他们有自己的自尊心，你无意中伤害了他们的自尊心，或以某种方式束缚了他们，他们会以你意想不到的方式反应。
And so power is this kind of invisible realm that envelops society where people are continually battling each other and struggling in it, but no one is like talking about it. No one's being overt about it. No one's saying, this is exactly what I'm trying to do. And so when you enter the social world and the career world, you're not expecting these battles. You don't know, no one's taught, no one's trained you. Your parents don't train you. Nobody trains you. And you make mistakes and you realize how political people are. If you're a sharky character and there's a certain percentage of them, you realize, wow, I can deceive people. I can manipulate them. I can get what I want. I can pretend to love them and they'll fall for me and I can do all this other stuff.
因此，权力是一种无形的领域，包裹着社会，人们不断地相互争斗和奋斗，但却没有人谈论它。没有人公开讨论它。没有人说：“这就是我想要做的。”因此，当你进入社交世界和职业世界，你并不期望遇到这些战斗。没有人教过你，没有人培训过你。你的父母没有教过你。没有人教过你。你犯了错误，你会意识到人们有多政治化。如果你是一个狡猾的角色，而且有一部分人是这样的，你会意识到，“哇，我可以欺骗人们。我可以操纵他们。我可以得到我想要的。我可以假装爱他们，他们会为我倾心，然后我就可以做所有这些事情。”
But for most of us, the 95% of us who aren't sharks, and I'm including myself in that category, it's very, very disturbing to suddenly enter that world and see all of that invisible power games on this. No one's giving you any advice for it helped you. And so take it out of the realm of it's just about trying to dominate the world and manipulate and exploit and abuse. It's something inside of you. You have this need and your suppression of it will only make you come out in passive ways. And you won't be able to control certain things.
对于我们大多数人来说，也就是那95%不是鲨鱼的人，我自己也包括在内，突然进入这个世界并看到所有那种看不见的权力游戏真的很让人不安。没有人会为你提供任何有帮助的建议。所以，把它看成仅仅是试图统治世界、操纵、剥削和虐待的行为是不够的。它是你内心深处的一种需求。如果你压抑它，只会以被动的方式表现出来，而你将无法控制某些事情。
If you want to move people, if you want them to follow your ideas, if you want them to be more aligned with your politics or your ideas, you have to be subtle. You have to learn psychology. You have to learn certain aspects of how to almost move people without them realizing in certain directions, which is like the art of seduction. And if you're not interested in that, if you're just going to tell people what you think and what you're going to do, that means you're not interested in practical action. You're not interested in results. You're just interested in inventing your own frustrations or your own anger.
如果你想感动人们，如果你想让他们跟随你的思想，如果你想让他们更加与你的政治或思想相一致，你必须巧妙一些。你需要学习心理学，学习如何在某种程度上影响人们的思想走向，而又不让他们察觉，这就像是一门诱导的艺术。而如果你对此不感兴趣，只是打算告诉人们你的想法和要做的事，那就意味着你对实际行动不感兴趣。你只是对摆弄自己的挫折或愤怒感兴趣。
So learning the subtle little dynamics of power is extremely essential because we're a social animal. It doesn't mean that you're going to get dirty, that you're going to suddenly go out there and manipulate the hell out of people. Most of the 48 laws of power is about defense. But how to defend yourself from the sharks about there, how to defend yourself from making classic mistakes, like outshining the master, like talking too much, like arguing with people instead of demonstrating your ideas on and on and on. It's not an ugly thing. It actually makes you a better social individual. So that's how I like to frame it.
学习权力微妙的小动态非常重要，因为我们是社会性动物。这并不意味着你会变得肮脏，会突然去操纵别人。《权力的48条法则》大部分是关于自我防御的。它告诉你如何保护自己免受那些鲨鱼的伤害，如何避免犯常见的错误，比如比师傅更出色，说话过多，与人争论而不是展示自己的观点等等。这并不丑陋，事实上，它让你成为一个更好的社交个体。这就是我对此事的看法。
It's very interesting. I think as a young guy growing up, it was so important to me to know where I fit in with my friend group. And I didn't think of it so much as a hierarchy. Nor when I was in my academic studies did I think of it as a hierarchy, even though it was, clearly was. So much as the goal was to figure out where was my unique slot that I could do the most good for myself and others. You're kind of finding my spot. I don't want to say on a shelf because that gives an image of something vertical, but you know, let's make it lateral. A lateral arrangement of different people with different strengths, different life purposes, trying to figure them out. Where should I be in order to express that and also feel connected to others?
这非常有趣。在我成长的过程中，知道自己在朋友圈中的位置对我来说非常重要。我并没有将其看作是一个等级制度，即使事实上它明显就是。我的目标是找到一个独特的位置，我可以在这个位置上为自己和他人做出最大的贡献。你可以说我在寻找我的位置。我不想说成是放在一个架子上，因为这会给人一个垂直的形象，但你知道，我们可以将其看作是一个横向安排，不同的人有不同的优势和生命目标，我们都在努力找到自己的定位。我应该在哪里表达自己，同时也感到与他人相互联系？
And in order to do that, I did have to, I realize now, based on your answer, I did have to figure out, you know, who's trying to have power over, who's pretending that they don't want power, but is actually exerting power, you know, these sorts of things. And there's an incredible piece that comes from knowing that one is in the correct place, both profession, interpersonally, in relation to oneself, but also in the context of one peer group. It's kind of knowing, yeah, this is where I belong. Because trying to gain power when one is trying to move to a position that isn't right for them or in a way that isn't right for them just seems so energetically costly. Seems like a waste of a life, frankly. Trying to gather resources simply to have them to give the illusion of power, but then being afraid of losing them just sounds like a recipe for misery, as you pointed out. You know, whereas figuring out where am I most powerful in the benevolent sense of the word, that seems like a good pursuit.
为了做到这一点，我现在意识到，根据你的回答，我确实不得不弄清楚谁想掌握权力，谁假装不想要权力，但实际上却在行使权力，诸如此类的事情。对于知道自己既在职业上、人际关系上，又在同行群体的背景下处于正确位置这一点，是一种难以置信的满足感。这就像知道，是的，这就是我应该处的地方。因为当一个人试图在不适合他们的位置上或以不适合他们的方式获取权力时，似乎会消耗太多精力。这简直就像是在浪费生命。尽力收集资源只是为了给予权力的假象，却又害怕失去它们，这听起来就像是一种悲惨的命运，正如你所指出的。与此相反，弄清楚自己在善意的意义上最具有影响力的地方，似乎是一个不错的追求。
Well, it's connecting up to mastery again and finding your life's purpose. You know, I knew when I was young that I couldn't exert physical power because I was a skinny little runt and I wasn't bullied, but people would kind of pick on me, etc, etc. So I veered towards intellectual pursuits where I could have power. And in the end, you know, you might have been a jock and you might have done well in high school, but ha ha, look at me now. I'm not saying that it's a beautiful thing, but that's part of human nature, the desire to actually, you know, prove yourself and find that niche that you belong to so you don't have that kind of sense of inferiority.
嗯，它与掌握技能和找到生命目标联系在一起。你知道，当我年轻的时候我就意识到自己不能通过身体力量来施加影响，因为我是个瘦弱的孩子，虽然我没有受到欺凌，但人们会对我挑挑拣拣。所以我转向了智力追求，这样我就能获得权力。最后，你可能是个运动健将，在高中表现得很好，但哈哈，看看我现在。我并不是说这是一件美好的事情，但这是人类本性的一部分，渴望证明自己，找到自己所属的领域，这样你就不会有那种自卑感。
Which Alfred Adler, the psychologist, describes very eloquently. So a lot of it is kind of compensating when you're a child for things that are your weaknesses and finding what you're so good at that you do have that power. And people can't bully you, right? And you're like now a famous neuroscientist, whereas they're like, who knows what they're doing kind of thing. So power definitely is connected in some way to that inner sense of what you were meant to do. And you feel it with the ease and the connection that comes from it, right?
艾尔弗雷德·阿德勒这位心理学家非常生动地描述了这一点。因此，很多情况下，童年时期我们会通过弥补自己的弱点来寻找自己在某个方面优秀的才能，以便不被别人欺负。就像你现在成为了一位著名的神经科学家，而他们可能并不清楚自己在做些什么。所以权力与你内心的使命感是有一定关联的。当你感受到这种使命感时，你会感到轻松和内心的连接。
So I can honestly say that my dislike of working for other people in office politics and egos, I now have an existence where I don't have to deal with any of that. And I'm so blessed and I wake up every morning and I pray to God, thank God I found this because it's the perfect lifestyle for me.
我可以坦率地说，我不喜欢在办公室政治和自负的环境中为他人工作，现在我有了一个完全摆脱这一切的生活方式。我感到非常幸运，每天早上醒来，我会向上帝祈祷，感谢上帝让我找到了这个完美的生活方式。
Or can be accurately described as an intellectual beast. So it's which is like a compliment, right? We hear the word beast and we think a ferocious beast trying to harm others, but I'm happy being a beast. Yeah, you know, so I think finding where we can be a beast, you know, and for some people that's painting or gardening or whatever it might be, I think is again ties back to these issues or this quest for mastery.
可以准确地描述为知识的巨兽。所以这是一种恭维，对吗？我们听到“巨兽”这个词，会想到一只凶猛的野兽试图伤害他人，但我很高兴成为一只巨兽。是的，你知道的，我认为找到我们可以成为巨兽的领域，对于某些人来说可能是绘画、园艺或其他任何事情，我觉得与对精通的追求有关。
Seduction is also a very loaded word, right? It's even more uglier than power. Because seduction kind of drips with the idea that somebody is tricking someone else into doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. But seduction is both our propensity to do it and to have it done to us is hardwired into our nervous system and has a lot to do with the hypothalamus and a bunch of other areas that I won't bore us with the nomenclature. But seduction to me implies some sort of exchange. I suppose we could seduce ourselves through denial or convincing ourselves of something. But more often than not, when we talk about seduction, we're talking about an interaction between two or more people.
诱惑这个词也是个负面词汇，对吧？它比权力更加丑陋。因为诱惑意味着某人欺骗其他人去做他们本不想做的事情。但诱惑既是我们自己的倾向，也是别人对我们的倾向，这深植于我们的神经系统，而且与下丘脑和其他一些区域有很大关系，但是我不想用专业术语来让我们感到乏味。对我来说，诱惑意味着某种交换。我想我们可以通过否认或者使自己相信某种观点来欺骗自己。但更多时候，当我们谈论诱惑时，我们指的是两个或更多人之间的互动。
So what are some of the core principles of seduction and if you care to play anthropologist a bit and neuroscientists, I would invite that. Why do you think we have neural circuits in our brain that allow us to seduce and be seduced? Well, I don't know how if I'm being kind of an armchair intellectual here, but my theory is some of it has to go back to social events long in our prehistory, which have to do with taboos. And society was initially kind of organized by a series of taboos, right? Most notably the taboo on incest. And what happens, and this is just not my theory, it's the theory of Malinowski. So at the moment a taboo enters the human brain, like you're not supposed to sleep with this woman, the desire arises inside of you to actually sleep with that woman. The sense of no, since this is prohibited, stirs the desire, stirs the contrary impulses in humans. And we can be very, what's the word, perverse creatures, right? So if you've ever tried to suppress a thought, you realize that it keeps coming up, keeps coming up, you can't suppress it. Don't think of an elephant, Andrew, whatever you do, don't think of an elephant, you're thinking of it because you can't help it, right? The idea that you're not supposed to desire this person stirs that actual desire. So I believe the sense of something being taboo and transgressive is the ultimate kind of origin of our desire for seduction.
那么，有哪些诱惑的核心原则，如果你对此有兴趣作为一位人类学家和神经科学家，我欢迎你提出观点。那么，为什么你认为我们的大脑中有神经回路能让我们有能力进行诱惑和被诱惑呢？哦，我不知道如果我在此自以为是一位虚荣的知识分子，但我有一个理论，那就是这其中的一部分与我们史前社会中建立在禁忌上的社交事件有关。社会最初是通过一系列的禁忌来组织的，对吗？其中最显著的禁忌是乱伦禁忌。当一个禁忌进入人类大脑时，比如说你不应该与这个女人发生关系，你内心会产生渴望与她发生关系的愿望。那种因为被禁止而引发的渴望，在人类中产生了相反的冲动。我们可以是非常，用什么词来形容呢，变态的生物，对吗？所以如果你曾经尝试过压制一个想法，你会发现它一直出现，你无法压制它。不要想象一只大象，安德鲁，无论你做什么，不要想象一只大象，你还是在想象它，因为你控制不了，对吗？那种你不应该渴望这个人的想法，引发了对于渴望的实际渴望。所以我相信，某种被视为禁忌和突破禁忌的感觉，是我们对于诱惑欲望的起源。
But seduction involves vulnerability. It involves somebody gets inside, somebody gets under our skin, right? And to do that we have to let them in. So the person being seduced is in some ways a two degree complicit. Because if you just put up a wall and you said, no, I'm not going to be seduced, nothing will happen. But you have a vulnerability, you're letting that person into your psyche, into your inner space. The paradigm for that is early childhood. So Freud talks a lot about this, I don't know if people still believe in Freud anymore. I certainly do. Absolutely. But the genius of both psychology and physiology, wrong about a lot of things, did a lot of things he shouldn't have done. Let's acknowledge that. I think everyone would agree that sleeping with your patients and being a cocaine addict, bad ideas.
但是诱惑涉及到脆弱性。它意味着有人进入我们内心深处，激起我们的共鸣，对吧？要做到这一点，我们必须让他们进来。所以被诱惑的人在某种程度上是有点配合的。因为如果你只是设立一道墙壁，说不，我不会被诱惑，什么都不会发生。但是你有一种脆弱性，你让这个人进入你的心灵和内心空间。这的典型例子就是早期童年。所以弗洛伊德很多地方谈到这一点，我不知道人们现在还相信弗洛伊德吗。但我肯定相信。绝对是的。但是他在心理学和生理学方面的天才，对很多事情都错了，做了很多不该做的事情。让我们承认这一点。我想每个人都会同意，与患者发生性关系和成为可卡因成瘾者是不好的主意。
But at the same time he had an absolute, like near supernatural levels of insight and brilliance into human nature. Did you sleep with his patients? I believe he did. But if I just threw that on him without him doing it, then you know, forgive me. He certainly had emotional attachments to his patients that he shouldn't have had. I don't know if he slept with him, he very well might have.
但与此同时，他对人性有着绝对的，近乎超自然的洞察力和才华。你和他的病人有过关系吗？我相信他有过。但如果我没有确凿证据就妄下结论，那请原谅我。他与他的病人建立了情感上不应该有的依赖关系。我不知道他是否与他们有过关系，但很有可能。
But his idea was that the child is seduced by the parent. You're in extremely vulnerable position, right? Your life depends on them. And they're seducing you with their energy. You're letting them in, right? And that kind of creates a pattern for the rest of your life. And so for instance, the feeling of being carried by your father and just being taken around physically is a form of seduction. Because you don't know what he's going to do to you. You're very excited. You want that surprise, right?
但是他的观点是，孩子会被父母所勾引。你处于极其脆弱的位置，对吧？你的生活取决于他们。而他们则用他们的能量来勾引你。你正在让他们进入你的内心世界，对吧？而这种情况在你的余生中会形成一种模式。比方说，你父亲背着你四处走动，你感到被支配，这就是一种勾引。因为你不知道他会对你做些什么。你感到非常兴奋，你渴望这种惊喜，对吧？
And to me, it's related to the seduction of a story. Stories are very seducing to us. We don't know where they're taking us. We don't know what the next chapter is, what's going to happen to this character or not. The surprise lowers our resistance and opens our mind up to what's going to happen next is a form of seduction. Fairy tales, the stories you were reading as a child, your interactions with your parents, they're deeply, deeply ingrained in you. You cannot be seduced unless you are vulnerable, right?
对我来说，这与故事的诱人之处有关。故事对我们非常具有吸引力。我们不知道它们会带我们去哪里。我们不知道下一章会发生什么，这个角色会发生什么事情或者不会发生什么事情。惊喜降低了我们的抵抗力，并开放我们的思维，期待接下来会发生什么是一种诱惑。童话故事，你小时候读的故事，与父母的互动，它们深深地植根于你的内心。除非你是脆弱的，否则无法被诱惑，对吧？
And so I like to switch that around and get it out of the negative connotations. Being vulnerable is actually a positive trait. I think a lot of people now in the world today, because things are so harsh and invasive, that people have become too invulnerable. They don't want to let anything in, right? And this now infects their relationships with other people. They don't want to be influenced. They want to be strong inside of themselves. They're afraid of giving in to the other person, of surrendering to their influence.
所以，我喜欢改变这种观念，并从负面内涵中摆脱出来。脆弱实际上是一种积极的特质。我认为如今世界上很多人由于事情如此残酷和侵入性，变得过于无法受伤。他们不想让任何东西进入心里对吧？而这种态度现在也影响了他们与他人的关系。他们不想被影响。他们希望自己内心强大。他们害怕向他人屈服，屈服于他们的影响之下。
But it's actually a delightful feeling to surrender to the power of another person and then reverse that charge and have them surrender to your power. So when I'm reading a writer and sometimes they completely seduce me, like Friedrich Nietzsche is one of my favorite writers, I let go of everything. I let him enter my brain and I'm completely seduced. I let him lead me along. Then I encounter writers that I don't like at all. I'll mention one, you know, probably not a good thing, but Steven Pinker. I don't like Steven Pinker. I find him really annoying, okay? But I force myself to try and find a way to be seduced by him, to let him into my brain, to see where he's coming from, to open myself to the possibility that he could be correct.
但实际上，将自己完全投降给另一个人的力量，然后反转这种力量，让他们对你的力量投降，这是一种令人愉悦的感觉。当我阅读一个作家的时候，有时他们完全吸引住我，比如弗里德里希·尼采是我最喜欢的作家之一，我会放下一切。我会让他进入我的大脑，完全被他迷住。我让他引导我。然后我会遇到一些我不喜欢的作家。我举一个例子，你知道的，可能不太好，但是斯蒂文·平克我不喜欢。我觉得他真的很烦人，好吗？但我会强迫自己试图被他吸引，让他进入我的大脑，看清他的出发点，敞开心扉，接受他可能是正确的可能性。
So vulnerability, letting people into your mental space, is a form of intelligence. It's kind of an emotional and an intellectual intelligence. And forgive me for interrupting, but I think it also implies a level of confidence because empathy or allowing oneself to be vulnerable to the point where you're seduced by something. By definition, if you're choosing to do it, implies that you also have the confidence that you can get back to yourself afterwards. Of course.
脆弱是一种智慧，它意味着将人们融入你的思维空间。它既是一种情感智慧，也是一种智力智慧。请原谅我打断一下，我认为脆弱还表明了一种自信心，因为同理心或者将自己变得脆弱到一种让你被某种东西诱惑的程度。从定义上看，如果你选择这样做，意味着你也有信心在之后能够重回自我。当然。
Right, that you're not going to get lost in the circumstances. You're not going to be hijacked to the point of no return. Right. Or in some way that's detrimental to you. That's right. So it's, it's, it's really nerdy here. It's collinear with confidence in many ways. Sure.
对，你不会在这种情况下迷失方向。你不会被劫持到无法挽回的地步。是的。或者以某种对你不利的方式。没错。因此，这里确实很枯燥。在许多方面，它与自信密切相关。当然。
Like take my mind and take it where you will because I know I can come back at any time. Right, right. And the same thing in a physical seduction in a romantic sense, right? You're opening yourself up to the charm, to the energy of the other person, but if they start displaying dark energy and you see that they're abusive or something is wrong, you have the ability to retreat.
将我的思绪带到你想去的地方，因为我知道我随时可以回来。对的，对的。在浪漫的意义上，身体的诱惑也是一样的，对吗？你向对方展开心灵，并与其能量共鸣，但如果他们开始展现出黑暗能量，或者你察觉出他们有虐待倾向或其他问题，你有能力后退。
Well, there it gets tricky. It gets very tricky. Well, because the attachment systems, which are also rooted in childhood oftentimes can overwhelm one's ability to recover oneself. Like, I mean, so I mean, how many, if I had a dollar for every time someone in, that I knew in my life saying like, you know, they're bad for me, but I just can't, like we just can't seem to disengage like that. You hear about that all the time. I mean, you see court cases about this that are public and you know, you just go, why didn't they just walk away from one another?
嗯，这就变得棘手了。变得非常棘手。好吧，因为依恋系统通常根植于童年时期，它们会压倒一个人恢复自我能力。就像，我是说，如果我能拿到每次我生活中认识的人说他们对我不好，但我就是无法与他们分开的钱，我会有多少钱呢？你总是听到这样的事。我是说，你看到公开的法庭案例，你就会想，为什么他们就不能互相离开呢？
Well, because once those attachment systems are locked in, it almost becomes in a, in here, metaphorically speaking, like a parent-child relationship. Like you can't suddenly decide your parents weren't your parents, simply because you know better now. Right. You are forever stricken with the reality that they were and they had an influence. And I think that attachment system is a force that tugs pretty hard. Yeah.
嗯，因为一旦那些依恋系统被锁定，它几乎就像是一种，这里用作比喻，父母和子女的关系。就像你不能突然决定你的父母不是你的父母，只因为你现在更明白了。你永远被现实打击，他们是你的父母并且对你产生了影响。我认为依恋系统是一种相当强大的力量。嗯。
And a lot of women have written to me since the art of seduction sort of saying that their boyfriend or husband was applying some of these tactics on them. And it was very painful and they were kind of a little bit angry at me for it. Then they kind of realized that it wasn't, they didn't learn really from my book. It was already kind of wired in them. But that reading about these tactics and these strategies actually helped them to recognize what their husband or boyfriend was doing to them, the manipulation and the games that were being played.
很多女性自从《迷情的艺术》一书出版后给我写信，告诉我她们的男朋友或丈夫在对她们使用了一些这些策略，这让她们非常痛苦，并且对我有一点生气。然后她们意识到这并不是真的来自我的书籍的影响，而是这些策略本身就已经深植在他们的内心。但是，阅读关于这些策略和技巧的内容却帮助她们认识到自己的丈夫或男友对她们所使用的操控和游戏。
Do men write to you and talk about the seductive adornments that women have used to bring them into relationship as well? Or are you typically hearing from women? I mostly hear from women complaining about men and how they've abused them and how they use some of these, some of the strategies. I don't deny, I don't deny, have a slightly nefarious edge to them because I didn't want to write a book about seduction that doesn't have that taboo element because I say seduction involves the taboo and I didn't want to, I didn't want to censor myself. But female to male seduction clearly also exists. Very much so.
男人会写信给你，谈论女性用来吸引他们进入关系的迷人装饰品吗？或者你通常听到的是女性的声音？我大部分听到的是女性抱怨男人以及他们被虐待和使用一些策略。我并不否认这些策略有一些稍微不道德的成分，因为我不想写一本没有这种禁忌因素的引诱书，因为我认为引诱涉及禁忌，我也不想自我审查。但女性向男性的引诱显然也存在，非常明显。
I acknowledge that it's less often is it physically abusive. But from an early age, both boys and girls, men and women are coached by society on the sorts of seductive tactics and adornments. Everything from makeup perfume, hairstyles, cars, watches, jewelry, expression, power displays of any kind, that stuff, the world's filled with that stuff. Men are generally kind of happy when a woman seduces them, unless they're after their money or something like that, which happens. But generally the sense, I talk about this in the first chapter about sirens, which I could say is the quintessential archetype of the female seductress, the kind of half human half bird creature on a rock singing so beautifully that you have to trump in the water and then they kill you.
我认识到身体虐待的情况较少。但从小，男孩和女孩，男人和女人都受到社会的指导，了解各种诱惑策略和装饰品。化妆品、香水、发型、车子、手表、珠宝、表达方式、任何展示权力的东西，世界充满了这些东西。当女人勾引男人时，男人通常会感到开心，除非他们目的是为了钱等，这种情况也存在。但总体上来说，我在第一章中讨论了关于塞壬的问题，可以说这是女性诱惑者的典型形象，她们是半人半鸟的生物，坐在岩石上，唱得如此优美以至于你不得不纵身跳入水中，然后她们会杀死你。
And so the idea is that men want to let go because men have to be so in control, so powerful, they have to project this image. They have a secret desire to let go and be almost dominated by a very powerful woman. A lot of men have that. Some of the most powerful men in history, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, Joe DiMaggio, all these men, very masculine men who've fallen for very feminine siren like women and been completely dominated by them. And they actually kind of enjoy the process because it's like a sense of, I can let go, I can enter this totally sesh sensual physical world and it's extremely pleasing. It's like another realm outside of my kind of cold masculine world, you know.
因此，这个观点是男人想要放手，因为男人必须控制一切，变得强大，他们必须展示这个形象。他们有一个秘密的愿望，想要放手，被一个非常强大的女人所征服。很多男人都有这种愿望。历史上一些最强大的男人，如凯撒大帝、马克·安东尼、乔·迪马吉奥，都爱上了非常女性化的妖媚女人，被她们完全控制。而实际上，他们有点喜欢这个过程，因为这意味着我可以放手，我可以进入完全感性的物质世界，这非常令人愉悦。这就像是我进入了一个冷酷的男性世界之外的另一个境界，你知道的。
So I don't really get men complaining too much about women who seduce them. Honestly, it's usually the other way around.
所以我不太明白为什么男人会抱怨女人勾引他们。说实话，通常都是相反的情况。
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我想要休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商Inside Tracker。Inside Tracker是一个个性化营养平台，它通过分析你的血液和DNA数据来帮助你更好地了解自己的身体，并帮助你实现健康目标。长期以来，我一直相信定期进行血液检查的重要性，因为许多影响你的即时和长期健康的因素只能通过高质量的血液检测来分析。
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I've heard before, and I promise this is not an original idea that I'm pretending to have heard elsewhere, that my friend asked me to ask sort of question, that in all sexual exchanges, there's a power exchange. Maybe you could elaborate on that because as you were describing some of the seductive power dynamics that exist, a phrase that I've heard before came to mind that at first made me chuckle, but then made me think quite deeply about this issue of the relationship between sexual and power dynamics, which is this notion of topping from the bottom.
我之前听说过，并且我保证这并不是一个我虚构的思想，而是我在别处听到别人说过的。我的朋友让我问一个关于性交换的问题，那就是，在所有的性交中，都存在着权力的交换。也许你可以详细说明一下，因为当你描述某些存在的诱惑力量动态时，我脑海中浮现了一个短语，一开始让我笑了起来，但后来让我对性和权力动态之间的关系问题思考得更加深入。这个短语就是"bottom主动顶"。
If one is giving someone else the impression that they are more powerful, by virtue of the word giving, they actually hold some power. Power is can be given or taken, but oftentimes seductive exchanges and sexual exchanges and romantic exchanges in particular are about both people buying into a temporary illusion. Let's pretend that you're in charge when actually I'm in charge. I know that you think that you're in charge. Let's just pretend none of that exists and just do X. This is another example of covert contracts. It's one that can potentially create a lot of problems post hoc. But I think the relationship between sex, romance, and power is an important area to explore in the context of this.
如果一个人让别人产生自己更有权力的印象，凭借“给予”这个词，实际上他们拥有一些权力。权力可以给予或夺取，但通常情况下，迷人的交流、性交流和浪漫的交流都是关于两个人都参与其中的一个暂时的幻觉。假装你在负责，实际上我在负责。我知道你认为自己在掌控。我们就假装那些不存在，只是做X。这是另一个隐性契约的例子。这可能会在事后造成很多问题。但我认为在这个背景下，性、浪漫和权力之间的关系是一个重要的领域需要探讨。
Well, I wrote the art of seduction with the idea that it was an art invented by women. It was invented by women who had no power, essentially, socially, politically, in any sense of the word in domestically. But the one power that they could wield over a man was through sex, some physical attraction. They developed this art of luring a man into their world through various theatrical effects. Cleopatra being the archetype of this. Then luring the powerful man into this world, he has the illusion that he's the one pursuing her, but in fact, she is the one controlling the dynamic. So oftentimes the person who appears to be the weaker one in the relationship who is not doing the pursuing is actually inviting the pursuing, is actually leading the other person on. So there's a lot of kind of appearance games going on, and you can never really figure out who exactly is in control of the dynamic. Because one person is allowing the other person to lead them on, but the fact that you're allowing them is a degree of power, is a degree of control. So it's very hard to figure out, and sex and power and romantic relationships are very much intertwined in us, physically, emotionally, neurologically. You can't avoid it, right? And so I think it's kind of dishonest to say that none of that exists, that there's some egalitarian paradise out of there when it's really not wired in us for that kind of relationship.
我写《迷人的艺术》这本书的初衷是认为这是一种由女性发明的艺术。这是被那些在社会、政治和家庭生活中没有任何权力的女性发明的，但她们可以通过性和其他一些物质吸引男性，从而将男性吸引到她们的世界中。克鲁帕特拉就是这种类型的典型代表。她将有权势的男人吸引到自己的世界中，让他产生她主动追求的错觉，但实际上，她才是控制着这种关系的人。因此，在一段关系中，那个看似较弱、没有主动追求的人实际上是在邀请对方追求，并引导对方上钩。所以在这种关系中，存在很多表象上的博弈，你很难弄清楚谁真正掌握着主动权。因为一方是被允许被另一方引导着，但被允许本身也是一种权力，也是一种掌控。所以弄清楚这一点是非常困难的。对于我们而言，性、权力和浪漫关系在身体、情感和神经上都有紧密联系，这是无法避免的。因此，在我们人类中，说这些不存在，说存在一种平等的乌托邦是不诚实的，因为我们的生理构造并不适合这种关系。
There's a recent scientific publication slash factoid that I wanted to share with you in this context, because I'd like your thoughts on it. David Anderson, who's a phenomenal neurobiologist, he's been a guest on this podcast before he's a professor at Caltech Studies, basically the functions of the hypothalamus. So things like aggression, mating, and things of that sort. And does it, so great detail. He's a virtuoso of the hypothalamus.
有最近一篇科学出版物和一个有趣的事实，我想在这个背景下与你分享，因为我希望听听你的想法。大卫·安德森是一位出色的神经生物学家，之前曾在这个播客中做过嘉宾，他是加州理工学院研究下丘脑功能的教授。下丘脑控制着攻击、交配等行为，他对这方面有着深入的研究，可以说是下丘脑的大师级人物。
And he published a paper two years ago showing that indeed there are neural circuits in the brain of animals, and presumably, in the brain, presumably in humans as well, they control sexual mounting behavior, but that there is actually a separate circuit for purely non-sexual mounting and physical power over that's expressed in animals. And anyone that's ever owned a dog and gone to the dog park will see same sex mounting between dogs or mounting between dogs that has apparently no sexual endpoint. And in exploring this literature and some talking to David about it, it's very clear that there are neural circuits that have everything to do with essentially one animal of a species getting on top of the other animal, usually from behind, oftentimes scruffing or biting the back of the neck, and saying, I control you. It's often done in a playful context, especially between animals, not always aggressive, but there's a certain element of aggressive to it. But it essentially says, I decide whether or not you are mobile or not for this moment. And this is very important. I want to emphasize this. This is a circuit that is entirely separate from all of the reflexes associated with sexual behavior in males and females.
他在两年前发表了一篇论文，表明在动物的大脑中确实存在着神经回路，可以控制性交行为，并且很可能在大脑中，可能也存在于人类中。但实际上，纯粹非性交和对动物具有物理支配力的行为有一个完全不同的回路。任何曾经养过狗并去过狗公园的人都会看到同性狗之间的性交行为，或者表面上没有性目的的狗之间的性交行为。在研究这方面的文献并与大卫讨论过后，很明显存在着与一种动物将另一种动物压在身下有关的神经回路，通常是从后面开始，经常在脖子后方抓住或咬住，然后它会说："我控制着你"。这通常是在玩耍的情况下进行的，尤其是在动物之间，不总是具有攻击性，但其中存在一定的侵略成分。但它完全独立于雄性和雌性性行为相关的所有反射。
I find this to be fascinating because we hear about power over, right? And we hear about power and we think about physical power over. But the idea that something as primitive as mounting, just like something as primitive as biting or as striking, has its own unique set of circuits in the brain, I think substantiates everything that you put in your books about power and maybe even seduction as well. So as I just kind of tossed that out there for consideration, I wonder if you have any reflections on it. I do not feel free to just say, I don't, but of course. But to me, this was a really important discovery because I think everyone looks at mounting behavior and says, oh, that has to be sexual, and sometimes it's. I see what you mean. But it's not that there seem to be a host of neural circuits in the brain that are really about defining who's on top, literally, that has nothing to do with sex.
我觉得这很有趣，因为我们经常听说权力的压制，对吧？我们常听到关于力量的讨论，然后我们会想到身体力量的压制。但是这个想法，就像攀爬这样原始的动作，就像咬或者攻击这样原始的动作，其实在大脑中有着自己独特的一套电路，我认为这一切都证实了你在书中关于权力，甚至可能包括诱惑的观点。所以，我只是随便提了一下，不知道你对此有什么想法。我并不是想让你随便回答“我不知道”，但是也可以啊。对我来说，这是一个非常重要的发现，因为我觉得每个人都会看到攀爬行为然后说，“哦，这一定是性的”，但有时候并非如此。我明白你的意思。但事实上，在大脑中似乎有许多神经回路与谁处于上位有关，而与性无关。
Yeah, I'm sure this is true. I've never read anything about that. But I can say that I wrote a chapter in my new book about love, and that's a different thing than seduction. And I was trying to come up with an idea of love that does have an element of equality that doesn't have this power dynamic going on in it. And I love that. And kind of like the antithesis of my art of seduction where I'm almost contradicting myself. And I was going into the biology of it and even into the physics of it.
是的，我确信这是真的。我从未读过关于这方面的任何东西。但是我可以说，我在我的新书中写了一章关于爱情，那与诱惑是不同的。我试图提出一个关于爱的想法，其中包含了一种没有权力动态的平等元素。我喜欢这一点。这几乎是我艺术的反面，我几乎在与自己相矛盾。我还深入到了生物学甚至物理学的领域探讨。
So there's a famous French biologist whose name escapes me. Sorry, I can't remember from the 20s and 30s. And he was studying paramecium. And he was studying them. They were in these ponds, etc. And he said that there was these moments where these single-celled organisms were suddenly coupling. They were all joining together, just one to one. And they were absorbing the membrane of one inside the other. And then they would like. And then once one couple did that, all the paramecium started joining up together. Then they would sink to the bottom of the pond. And paramecium don't reproduce through sex. They reproduce through dividing themselves, self-reproduction. And so he was saying that the desire to couple, to connect to someone so deeply where you absorb one is absorbed in the other, is biologically wired into us. It goes back millions and millions and millions of years. And it's a desire, essentially, a biological desire for love. And it's an energy that permeates all. It's not just about power and hierarchies. And that he was showing other creatures that had something similar going on. And in physics, we talk about entanglement. And we also talk about matter. If matter isn't opposed by a lot of kinetic energy, it joins together. I mean, particles join together to form matter, etc., etc. So there's something in the universe that's trying to connect things to each other.
所以，有这位我忘记名字的著名法国生物学家，20年代和30年代的事情我记不清了。他在研究草履虫。他在研究它们。它们在这些水塘里，等等。他说有时候，这些单细胞生物突然开始交配。它们互相连接，一对一地结合在一起。它们会吸收彼此的膜。然后它们会... 一旦有一对这么做了，所有的草履虫都会开始聚在一起。然后它们会沉到水塘底部。而草履虫并不是通过性繁殖。它们是通过分裂自身来繁殖的。所以他在说，渴望与某人深度连接，以至于一个被另一个吸收，这种欲望在生物学上被编码进我们的本能中。它可以追溯到数百万年前。这是一种对爱的需求，本质上是一种生物学的需求。它是一种贯穿一切的能量。它不仅仅与权力和等级有关。他展示了其他具有类似情况的生物。在物理学中，我们谈论纠缠。我们也谈论物质。如果物质没有受到很多动能的阻碍，它们会结合在一起。我的意思是，粒子会结合在一起形成物质，等等。所以宇宙中有一些东西在试图将事物连接在一起。
So there's this kind of energy that exists in the world where we have a deep need to connect to somebody with outside of those power dynamics, right? Where there's a degree of equality where we're drawn to each other and we let go of the ego games, we let go of the playing, we kind of surmount our own physiology, our own hypothalamus, and we engage in this, I call it love, sublime.
所以世界上存在一种能量，我们迫切需要与他人建立超越权力关系的联系，对吧？在这种联系中，存在一定程度的平等，我们彼此相互吸引，放下自我游戏、放下欺骗，我们超越自身的生理和下丘脑，参与其中，我称之为「爱」，崇高而纯粹的爱。
And it involves the physical part. The sexual part is the trigger for it because when you have sex with someone, your body is suddenly permeable to their energy in a way that you cannot control. It releases all kinds of chemicals in the brain that are very powerful. And oftentimes that sense is too powerful and you react and you're afraid of it and you pull back. But if you don't react and you go further, then the mind also becomes permeable to the other person and their energy and their desire. And so then it kind of creates a spiraling effect where the physical and the mental connection reaches the state that I call love, sublime.
这段话涉及到身体的部分。性方面是其中的触发因素，因为当你与某人发生性关系时，你的身体会突然对他们的能量产生透过性，这是你无法控制的。它会释放出大量强大的脑化学物质。这种感觉通常过于强烈，你会对此感到害怕并退缩。但如果你不退缩并继续深入，那么你的思想也会透过性与对方的能量和欲望产生联系。因此，这种连续不断的作用会使身体和心理的联系达到我所称之为“爱”的境界，超然。
So it's an ideal, it doesn't really exist that much out there in the world today, but there are stories in history that illustrate it, and I believe that it is a biological necessity for us to feel a deep, deep sense of connection. We normally ascribe that to religion, to God, etc. But I maintain the essence of love, the model for love, is between two human beings, straight or homosexual, doesn't matter. And that feeling of surmounting our own neurology, our own system and entering this zone is deeply, deeply satisfying. We all want it. And it has to involve letting go of the power dynamics, letting everything being equal. It's not that the other person is exactly like you, you recognize their difference. But as far as being worthy of attention, being worthy and respected, you leave all that other stuff outside.
因此，这只是一种理想，在当今世界并不太普遍存在，但历史中有一些故事能够展示它，而我相信对我们来说，感受到深深的连接是一种生物上的必要性。我们通常将这种连接归因于宗教、上帝等等。但我坚信，爱的本质，爱的模型，存在于两个人之间，无论是异性还是同性都无关紧要。并且，克服我们自身的神经系统、我们自身的体系，进入这种境地，会带来深深的满足感。我们都渴望这种满足。它必须包括放弃权力动态，让一切平等。这并不意味着另一个人与你完全相同，你要认识到他们的差异。但在值得关注、值得尊重的方面，你把其他事情都抛在脑后。
So there is a zone that's possible that's outside this power dynamic that we're talking about. I'm excited that you're writing about this. So this is for your next book. Yeah. I'm very excited.
所以，我们正在谈论的权力动态之外，可能存在一个可能的区域。我很兴奋你要写这个。所以，这是为了你的下一本书。是的，我非常兴奋。
I couldn't help but think of some of the parallels between what you describe and what we're observing nowadays in the landscape of politics and social dynamics where clearly there is no setting aside of egos. Both sides feel attacked. Everyone in between feels confused like, why do I have to pick aside? And there seems to be no hint of a future where people are setting down their swords, which means if we were to go with your earlier definition, which I like a lot, that nobody feels safe enough to be vulnerable enough to allow the union of people to occur, which is just a way of re-wording a bunch of other things and not nearly as eloquently as you described it. But if setting aside of power dynamics and making oneself vulnerable is the key to accessing love in the romantic context surely, but also in the societal context, what are the channels for that?
我禁不住不去思考你描述的情况与我们如今在政治和社会动态中观察到的相似之处。明显地，没有人愿意放下个人利益。双方都感到受到了攻击。而夹在中间的人感到困惑，他们会问自己为什么要选择一边。而且似乎没有任何迹象显示未来人们会放下武器。这也就意味着，如果我们按照你早前所定义的方式行事，我非常赞同，没有人会觉得足够安全而去敢于脆弱，去实现人们的联合。这只是用不如你的描述那样优雅的方式重新表达了许多其他事情。但是，如果在浪漫关系中放下权力关系、变得愿意脆弱是获得爱的关键，那么在社会背景下，这该通过哪些途径实现呢？
I suppose there is the argument, not mine, that everyone should just take a boatload of psychedelics and see the interconnectedness of things. But that seems like an unrealistic route. I just don't see that being, you know, 12th grade graduation curriculum. Nor do I think it would be healthy. To be clear, I think that we'd end up with a lot of expression of problems there. But short of a magic substance that could increase feelings of connectedness among everyone simultaneously. How are you going to save humanity, Robert?
我认为有一种观点，虽然并非我自己的观点，那就是每个人都应该服用大量迷幻药物，从而看到万物的相互联系。但这似乎是一条不现实的道路。我不认为这会成为12年级的毕业课程，也不认为这对健康有益。当然，我认为这会导致许多问题的表达。但除非有一种能够同时增加每个人之间联系感的神奇物质，否则你打算如何拯救人类，罗伯特？
Well, because I'm concerned about young people in particular with hookup culture, with pornography, et cetera, et cetera. It's kind of rewiring the human brain and we're losing what I was just describing. And I see a lot, particularly a lot of young people. And I don't blame them because they've grown up in a world that's very chaotic and very hostile.
嗯，因为我特别关注年轻人在泡妞文化、色情等等方面的问题。这些东西正在重新塑造人类的大脑，我们正在失去我刚刚所描述的那种东西。尤其是很多年轻人，我看到了很多这样的情况。我并不怪责他们，因为他们成长在一个非常混乱和敌对的世界中。
Could I say, I think it's, and not to be nitpicky here, but I love what you just said. In my mind, it's things like that are hijacking the hardwiring of the brain. Okay. And I'm just, no, again, forgive me. The audience is probably going, oh, I can't really rewire the brain like that. Well, I think we can expand and rewire upon our hardwiring. But so much of what you talk about in your books is about finding one's essence, but then also what I love about your books so much. Many other things is that it's about that dance between the hardwiring and the possible of through effort.
我可以这样说，尽管我不想吹毛求疵，但我非常喜欢你刚才说的。在我看来，像这样的东西正在劫持大脑的固有功能。好吧，我非常抱歉，听众可能会觉得，哦，我不能像那样完全改变大脑的连线。嗯，我认为我们能够在固有功能的基础上进行扩展和调整。你在你的书中所谈论的很多内容都与寻找自我本质有关，但我非常喜欢你的书中的另一点就是它描绘了固有功能与通过努力可能实现的可能性之间的舞蹈。
So anyway, forgive me for being a.
不管怎样，对我的无礼请原谅我。
No, no, no, no, it's very accurate. So, yeah, how do you get us out of this?
不，不，不，不，它非常准确。那么，是的，你可以如何帮我们摆脱这个困境？
Well, you're putting a big burden on me, but I think you're up to it.
嗯，你对我来说提出了很大的压力，但我相信你能胜任。
Well, I try to do it in this chapter because I wanted to seduce the reader into the idea that this is something extremely pleasurable and extremely healthy. And the feeling of being vulnerable is a very positive attribute that will, in fact, not just your romantic relationships, but will infect you mentally. So, creative people are extremely vulnerable. They're extremely vulnerable to ideas. They're extremely vulnerable to the environment. And closing yourself off into your own ego, into yourself.
好吧，在这一章节中，我尝试这样做是因为我想引诱读者接受这个观念：这是一种非常愉悦和非常健康的事情。而且，感到脆弱是一种非常积极的特质，它不仅会影响你的恋爱关系，还会在心理上影响你。所以，有创造力的人非常脆弱。他们对观念非常脆弱，对环境非常脆弱。如果封闭自己在自己的自我中，就会失去这些。
So the chapter is called, Escape the Prison of the Ego. And you're kind of trapped inside of yourself and your own thoughts and your own desires. And it's like a prison. It's enclosing you and you want to escape somehow and you escape through drugs, you escape through porn, but it doesn't lead to actually escaping. You want to be able to let go of the self and get out of this prison that you're in, right? And so, it's a desire that we all have.
所以这个章节的标题是《逃离自我囚牢》。你有点困在自己的内心、思想和欲望里，就像是被囚禁在一座监狱里。你想要逃脱，通过吸毒、看色情影片等方式来逃避，但实际上并不能真正逃脱。你希望能够放下自我，走出这个囚牢，对吗？这是我们所有人都有的渴望。
And so I wanted to frame it as this incredibly positive dynamic that you can engage in. And the ability to be vulnerable to other people, to open yourself up and to say that, yeah, they might hurt me, but I'm strong enough to take it. And if they hurt me, I'll learn from it and I'll rebound. And I know that's a bit naive on my part, but I want you to at least have that feeling because a lot of young people write to me and they say, I can't fall in love anymore. I don't like that feeling. It makes the loss of control is too much.
所以我希望将它表达为一种非常积极的动态，你可以参与其中。而且，能够对他人表露自己的脆弱面，敞开自己并说，是的，他们可能伤害我，但我足够强大去承受。如果他们伤害了我，我会从中学习并恢复过来。我知道这在我这方面有点天真，但我希望你至少有那种感觉，因为很多年轻人写信给我，他们说，我再也不能坠入爱河了。我不喜欢那种感觉。失去控制太多了。
And a lot of their behavior patterns are in creating this sense of control, which you can have when you're locked inside of yourself. Hence, over indulgence and pornography and masturbation, et cetera, as a way to avoid the understandable fear about inter-relational dynamics.
他们很多行为模式都是为了建立这种控制感，而当你把自己封闭起来时，你就可以拥有这种控制感。因此，过度沉溺于色情、自慰等行为，是一种逃避对人际关系动态引发的理解上的恐惧的方式。
Yeah. So, when you're young, you're idealistic, at least a lot of young people are, and you have these dreams and these hopes, and to let go of this possibility, which is deeply pleasurable and deeply therapeutic to the human animal. As a social animal, it's like the highest form of interaction that we can have.
是的。所以，当你年轻的时候，你是理想主义者，至少很多年轻人是。你有着许多梦想和希望，而让这种可能性溜走，对人类来说是一种极其愉悦和治愈的方式。作为社会性动物，这是我们能够达到的最高形式的互动。
So, my strategy in that chapter was to paint such a wonderful portrayal of the pleasures that are awaiting you by letting go of your defenses, of letting go of all of your natural resistance factors, and opening yourself up to other people is a key to not just a romantic relationship, but to career success, to mental energy, to creativity, to being open in general, right?
所以，在那一章中，我的策略是通过描述放下防御、放下所有内在的抵抗因素，向你展示放松自己并开放自己给他人的乐趣，这不仅是建立浪漫关系的关键，也是取得事业成功、拥有心灵能量、激发创造力以及总体上开放自己的关键，对吗？
And so, I don't think I could have a huge impact, but we'll see when the book comes out. But I'm advocating that sense of opening yourself up to the universe, to the cosmos itself, as an energy that permeates the world. And so that you don't want to, the feeling of being closed inside of your ego, inside of yourself, I want to make it so you feel the pain of that, because you don't really feel the pain of it. You feel like it's comfortable for you. But I want to make it clear that it's not comfortable, it's deeply, deeply painful, and it's disconnecting you from some of the best experiences you can have in life.
所以，我不认为我能产生巨大的影响，但当这本书出版时我们就会知道了。但我主张打开自己，与宇宙本身融为一体，作为一种贯穿世界的能量。因此，你不想被封闭在自我的小圈子里，你希望能感受到那种痛苦，因为你实际上并没有真正感受到它的痛苦。你觉得这样对你来说很舒适。但我想明确指出，这并不舒适，它是非常非常痛苦的，而且会让你与生活中一些最美妙的经历脱离联系。
So I have that strategy. The only other hope I have is in the human spirit itself. So a lot of this is being caused by social media, I believe, right? And the kind of immediate gratification we can get in so many ways. And my hope is that young people get fed up and get disgusted with all this disconnection and alienation in their life, and that they hunger from actually something more communal, more interactive, more real, as opposed to virtual. And so that the human spirit can't be completely squashed by technology, etc.
所以我有这个策略。我唯一的希望就是人的精神本身。我相信，很多问题都是由社交媒体引起的，对吗？还有各种立即满足的方式。我希望年轻人对他们生活中的所有疏离和排外感感到厌倦和恶心，他们渴望真正的共同体、更互动、更真实的东西，而不是虚拟的。我希望人的精神不会被科技等完全压迫住。
So I have that hope, because we've gone through these cycles before in history, where people have become very invulnerable, very locked and closed, and suddenly there's an explosion, a creative explosion like in the 1960s, like in the 1920s, like in 18th century Europe with the Casanova, where seduction reached its kind of apogee, etc. So it has kind of swung back and forth between these moments, where humans get incredibly closed and bitter and partisan and everything's conflict and everyone's divisive, etc. And suddenly it goes in the opposite direction.
所以我怀有这样的希望，因为在历史上我们已经经历了这些循环，在这些循环中，人们变得非常坚不可摧，封闭而固执，突然之间爆发出一场创造力的爆发，如同1960年代，如同1920年代，如同18世纪的欧洲与卡萨诺瓦纳一起，这时候诱惑达到了巅峰等等。所以它在这些时刻之间来回摆动，人类变得非常封闭、痛苦、党派化，一切都是冲突，并且人们互相分裂等等。突然之间，情况会朝完全相反的方向发展。
I have hope in that possibility, and I structured my chapter to perhaps sweep that a little bit along that tie and see if I can have any effect.
我对这种可能性抱有希望，并且我构思了我的章节，试图在这个方面稍稍引起一点作用，看看我是否能够有任何影响。
I think what you just described in conversations like it and that stem from it are likely to have a tremendous effect. I think it's exactly what's needed now. And certainly I'll be to amplify that message. I agree with everything you said, and not just because you're sitting here as I guess on this podcast, but because it's clear to me that while power dynamics and seduction are wired into our human relation since the beginning of time, we have reached a very challenging period in our history.
我认为你刚才描述的那种对话以及由此产生的影响很可能会产生巨大的影响。我认为这正是现在所需要的。当然，我会加大宣传这个信息。我同意你说的每一句话，不仅仅是因为你坐在这里参与了这个播客，更是因为对我来说很明显，权力动态和诱惑自从人类关系的开始就存在，但我们现在正处于一个非常具有挑战性的时期。
It's somewhat of a relief to me to know that it's happened before, but in a very different context. We hear a lot about the swinging back and forth of the pendulum. Someone, in fact, Peter Atia, online physicians, a brother actually said, so we'll credit him. He said, no, it's not a pendulum that swings back and forth. Unfortunately, now it's become a wrecking ball. It's swinging back and forth and doing damage as it reaches its extremes.
对我来说，能知道这种情况在以往发生过，尽管背景与现在完全不同，这让我感到有些安慰。我们经常听到钟摆来回摆动的说法。实际上，有人（彼得·阿蒂亚）在线上，一位医生兼兄弟实际上说过，我们把功劳归给他。他说，不，它不是一个来回摆动的钟摆。不幸的是，现在它变成了一颗摧毁的巨型铁球，当它达到极端时，它来回摆动并造成破坏。
And I think that I also look forward to a time where people acknowledge that the injustices around them and that have been done to them and others, but somehow we're able to transcend that. And the word that I'd like to pick up on there is the word justice. It was pointed out to me by someone I respect very much that having a sense of justice is a wonderful and important thing. And as humans, it's important to how we structure society.
我认为我也期待着一个时代，人们能够承认身边和他们及其他人身上发生的不公，并设法超越这些不公。我想要谈谈的是公正这个词。我很尊重的某人提醒我，具备公正意识是一件非常美妙且重要的事情。作为人类，公正对于我们社会的结构至关重要。
But I do think that a lot of the negative things that we see out there nowadays are something to do with the availability of ready availability of pornography, high density, calorie food, et cetera, a bunch of things like that. But one of the issues with social media, because it does have its positive aspects, but one of the negative issues in my mind is that it's a steady flow of examples of injustice. So all day long, you're just seeing things like that piss you off and that other people off and for different reasons.
但是我确实认为，我们现在看到的很多负面事物与色情物品的易得程度、高密度高热量食品等等有关。然而社交媒体也有其积极的一面，但在我看来，其负面问题之一是 它不断涌现不公正的例子。整天以此为伴，你只会看到让你和其他人因不同原因感到生气的事情。
But what was pointed out to me is that one of the key things about a sense of injustice is to be able to determine whether or not there's anything that you should do about it. And I think that everyone now feels a bit hijacked by all the injustices we see because we feel like we're supposed to do something about it. But it may be that while we can't let every injustice pass, that being bombarded all day long with things that upset us is hijacking our creativity. It's distracting us from our deeper purpose. It's preventing a sense of vulnerability that would lead to a sense of deep love and on and on.
但有人告诉我，对于正义感来说，关键之一就是能够确定自己是否应该采取任何行动。我觉得现在每个人都对我们看到的所有不公感到被劫持，因为我们觉得自己应该对此采取行动。但也许我们不能对每一种不公都坐视不理，但整天被各种令我们不安的事物轰炸的结果是，我们的创造力被劫持了。它分散了我们对更深层目标的注意力。它阻碍了我们感受到脆弱性，进而无法体验到深深的爱和诸如此类的感觉。
So I don't think it's just about the tantalizing lures of sex, food, and looking at bodies and hearing voices on social media. I think there is some validity to that, but it's also that there's just ample opportunity to go down the gravitational pull forces of injustice. Like, that's so frustrating. Why are they doing that? I mean, I catch myself doing that. Talking to coworkers when I walk in about, did you see this thing? This is crazy. What's going on with it? They're crazy. They're crazy as opposed to thinking about anything else in that moment. And I try and yank myself out of that. But I think that you're not going to do it alone, but I think you will play a major role in saving us from this. Because people, I do. I think because people just need to see themselves through a different lens and realize this is distracting me from who I'm supposed to be.
所以，我认为这不仅仅是因为性、食物、关注社交媒体上的身体和声音等诱人的诱惑。我认为这是有一定道理的，但另一方面也是因为有很多机会让我们去追随不公正的引力。比如，这真是令人沮丧。他们为什么这么做？我的意思是，我发现自己也在这样做。当我走进办公室时，和同事们谈论，你看到这件事了吗？真是疯狂。发生了什么？他们疯了。他们疯了，而不是思考其他任何事情。我试图摆脱这种状态。但我认为你不会一个人做到，但我认为你将在拯救我们免受其困扰方面发挥重要作用。因为人们需要从不同的角度看待自己，并意识到这会让我远离自己本应成为的样子。
Well, a lot of what modern life should involve is the ability to ignore certain things. So, for instance, I don't know if you know that app Next Door. Oh, right. I used to have it. But then I'd see all the packages being stolen off my neighbor's porch as an Oakland. And then I started enjoying living in Oakland less. And I love the city of Oakland. It's got its problems. It has its problems. But as an East Bay kid, you know, and went to school out there and, you know, like, I have deep love for the East Bay. And it's always had those problems. But when you see stuff being stolen on your phone in the middle of the night, when you wake up, it creates a sense that, like, they're out to get my stuff. It's terrible.
嗯，现代生活应该包含的很多内容就是忽略某些事物的能力。比如说，我不知道你是否了解邻居app Next Door。哦，对了，我以前有这个app。但后来我看到在奥克兰我邻居门口的包裹被偷，这让我开始对住在奥克兰不那么享受了。我热爱奥克兰这座城市，它有它的问题，它固然有问题。但作为一个东湾人，我在那里上学，对东湾有着深厚的感情。它一直存在着这些问题。但当你在半夜醒来时，在手机上看到东西被偷的时候，会给你一种他们在抢我的东西的感觉，真是太可怕了。
Right. And so I have it in my spam filter, but I look at it. And every headline is people stealing somebody broke into somebody's house. This person dog bit me. This is rapid dog. When there's this homeless person that's yelling and attacking people on and on and on. I feel like I'm living in this neighborhood. It's like Beirut or something in the 1980s. I can't even walk out my door. I just got, I don't look at it next door anymore. I just ignore it. I don't open it ever. Because I know that that they're designed algorithmically to put that in front of you every single time so that you click on it. Because that's, we respond to that kind of stuff naturally. We can't help it. So you have to be able to shut that stuff up and look at what you can actually control in your life.
没错。所以我把它放在了我的垃圾邮件过滤器中，但我还是会看一下。每个标题都是关于有人偷东西，有人闯入别人家里。这个人的狗咬了我。还有一个无家可归的人在不停地吵闹和攻击别人。我觉得我就住在这个社区里。就像是80年代的贝鲁特一样。我甚至不能出门。我不再看Nextdoor了。我只是忽视它。我从来不打开它。因为我知道它们通过算法设计让那些东西每次都出现在你面前，以便你点击它。因为那是我们自然而然会对其回应的类型。我们控制不住。所以你必须能够消除那些东西的干扰，看看你实际上能够在生活中控制的事情。
So I have this visceral dislike of what's going on in Ukraine. Because I was in Ukraine recently and I feel I've identified very strongly with their struggle. Right. And it just, I can't, that outrage feeling. It's just every time I read an article about it, it just drives me crazy.
所以我对乌克兰正在发生的事情有一种本能的反感。因为我最近去过乌克兰，我觉得我与他们的斗争产生了很强的共鸣。没错。每次我读到有关此事的文章时，都让我无法接受，激起了愤怒的情绪。
So the only thing is I stop reading as much as I can. I read things that are kind of rational and intelligent. And I send the money. And I, you know, I donate as much as I can and I help them practically. But I don't allow myself to get that kind of outraged feeling all of the time.
所以唯一的事情就是尽可能减少阅读。我只阅读那些比较理性和智慧的东西。我会捐钱。我会尽我所能地捐赠和实际帮助他们。但我不允许自己一直陷入愤怒的情绪中。
So somebody has to write a book. Somebody has to instruct us in what to ignore and what to actually pay attention to. So there are things that you can control in justices that are out there that you could control by voting, by certain, by amassing a movement, by, you know, dealing with climate change, not by trying to recycle every little thing in your house, but actually doing something really much more macro in the world, you know, joining a cause. There are things you can do and that's positive and that's a way of channeling that kind of dark energy in you for a positive purpose.
所以，必须有人写一本书。必须有人告诉我们应该忽略哪些事情，以及应该真正关注哪些事情。因此，有一些不公正的事情是你可以通过投票、积极参与运动、应对气候变化等方式来控制的，而不是仅仅试图回收你家里的每一样东西，而是真正在世界上做一些更宏观的事情，加入一个事业。有一些你可以做的事情是积极的，这是一种将你内心的黑暗能量引导到积极目标上的方式。
But it's totally disruptive and it totally distracts you and weakens you and drains you of energy to fall into those rabbit holes and let them and let yourself fall into them. So you have to learn the art of what to ignore and what not to pay attention to and understand that you're wired to see those kind of red alert buttons on Facebook or on next door or wherever they are. And it's just, it's negative. It's like a candy rush and you have to avoid it. And it's taking us away from our purpose, which we each have.
但这完全是破坏性的，完全使你分心，削弱你，耗尽你的精力，陷入那些兔子洞里，让它们吸引你、让你自己陷入其中。所以你必须学会忽略什么、不去关注什么，明白你的本能会让你在Facebook或者在附近看到那些红色警报按钮。这只会带来消极的影响，它就像吃了糖果一样，你必须避免它。这将使我们远离我们各自的目标。
I mean, I think to me, that's the most deleterious aspect of it. Unless your purpose is to organize and be an activist, people ask me, I wrote a lot about my human nature book about the shadow side of human nature, right? And we all have it. We all have a dark side. We all have hidden aggression. We all have feelings of envy. We all have feelings of grandiosity. We all have aggressive impulses. How do you deal with it? And I say the way to deal is to channel it into something positive and pro-social. And that can be putting it in your artwork, venting that anger and that outrage and something that people kind of can identify with. Or it can be in organizing something. That could be your purpose in life in actually doing something positive. So that's the only way that you could actually use that energy for some kind of actual life's task or purpose.
我的意思是，在我看来，这是最有害的一面。除非你的目的是组织和成为一名活动家，人们问我，我写了很多关于人性的阴暗面的书，对吧？我们都有。我们每个人都有一个黑暗的一面。我们都有隐藏的攻击性。我们都有嫉妒的感觉。我们都有自大的情绪。我们都有攻击冲动。你如何处理这些呢？我说应该把它们转化为积极的、亲社会的东西。可以把它们融入你的艺术作品中，宣泄那种愤怒和愤慨，让大家能够产生共鸣。或者可以通过组织一些事情来实现，这可能是你生活中的目标，实际上做一些积极的事情。这是你能够将这种能量用于某种实际生活任务或目标的唯一途径。
You've been discussing lately a bit on some of your channels about masculine and feminine, let's say, roles and crises of the masculine feminine dance as well as the crisis of masculinity per se, the crisis of femininity per se. Do you care to expand on that a bit? I think we could probably take three, four hours to explore all this in full. But I was struck by some of the things that you said because I agree completely that just as we are not given a roadmap when we arrive in the world as to how to find our purpose, I think there's also a very conflicted roadmap that's thrown in front of us and indeed conflicting multiple roadmaps about what it means to be masculine or feminine or some combination of both, which of course everybody is some combination of both, just to varying degrees.
最近你在一些渠道上讨论了一些关于男性和女性的问题，可以说是关于男女角色和男性女性之间的危机，以及男性或女性本身的危机。你愿意再详细谈谈吗？我觉得我们可能需要花三到四个小时来全面探讨这些问题。但是我被你说的一些话所触动，因为我完全同意，就像我们来到这个世界上没人给我们提供一个寻找目标的路线图一样，我认为在我们面前也有一个非常冲突的路线图，关于什么是男性或女性，或者二者的某种结合，而事实上，每个人都有不同程度的男性和女性特质组合。
Well, yeah, so men have a feminine side to them, which if you try to repress it will come out in other ways and women have a masculine side to them. I think Jung described this very well with the anima and the anemos, which I think is extremely real. It's very, very confusing times for both men and for women right now. We don't know the roles that everything is just so fluid and it's very, very difficult particularly if you're young. So young women are getting this idea that everything should be equal and that women should have, and of course it's right, should have paid the same and should have the same career opportunities. There should be no prejudice or harassment or anything, but at the same time on social media it's all about looking perfect and looks are incredibly important. If you're not hot, you're in terrible trouble and a lot of young girls are extremely confused by this. They're getting mixed signals, right?
是的，男性也有女性化的一面，如果你试图压抑它，它会以其他方式表现出来，女性也有男性化的一面。我认为荣格用“anima”和“anemos”非常好地描述了这一点，我认为这是非常真实的。现在对男性和女性来说，这是非常非常困惑的时代。我们不知道每个人的角色，一切都如此流动，特别是对年轻人来说，非常非常困难。所以年轻女性认为一切都应该平等，女性应该得到同样的薪酬和职业机会，当然这是正确的。不应该有偏见或骚扰的存在，但同时在社交媒体上，外表完美是非常重要的。如果你不够迷人，你就会遇到很大麻烦，很多年轻女孩对此感到非常困惑。他们接收到了矛盾的信息，对吗？
And boys are even in perhaps even worse circumstance where being masculine is seen as something negative. So we don't have any ideals out there anymore of what constitutes a good positive form of femininity and a good positive form of masculinity. In fact, we even think that there shouldn't be anything like that. There's no such thing as being masculine or feminine or whatever. It's very, very confusing. And so I think of masculine traits that I think are very positive and that should be out there to counteract the sort of androidsate seduction that a lot of young men are falling for.
男孩甚至处于更糟糕的境地，因为被视为男性化是一种负面的特征。所以现在我们已经没有任何关于什么是良好积极的女性特质和男性特质的理想典范了。事实上，我们甚至认为不应该有这样的东西存在。男性和女性，或其他任何性别特质根本就不存在。这非常非常令人困惑。因此，我认为有一些我认为非常积极的男性特质应该出现，以抵制许多年轻男性正在接受的某种人为诱惑。
And it's a kind of an inner strength where you're sort of in control of your emotions. You're not invulnerable, et cetera, et cetera. But you can take criticism, you can have moments of failure and you'll bounce back, but you have a kind of inner resilience and a kind of inner strength, a kind of a quiet calm that I think used to be exemplified in movie icons like a Gary Cooper type thing, right? And that kind of sense of inner calm is where you're not hysterical. You're not getting upset about everything that happens, where you have a kind of an inner strength and a confidence and you can withstand kind of what Ryan Holiday talks about, a lot about with stoicism. You can withstand all of the hardships in life, but you have that citadel within you is a very, very powerful form of masculinity as opposed to it's all about sleeping with a lot of women, having really fast cars, you know, being abusive and being a bully, et cetera, et cetera. These are signs of weakness, of insecurity, and to be masculine should be a sense of security and inner confidence and inner strength, right? And that's what we should venerate in our culture and we should have icons like that. Okay.
这是一种内在的力量，你在情绪控制方面有一定的能力。你并不是无敌，等等。但你可以接受批评，经历失败后也能反弹，你有一种内在的韧性和内在的力量，一种安静的平静。我认为，这种内在的平静以前常常在电影偶像中体现，比如类似加里·库珀的东西，对吧？这种内在平静的意思是你不会歇斯底里。你不会为发生的每一件事情都感到失望，你有一种内在的力量和自信，可以承受瑞安·霍利戴在斯多噜派思中经常提及的所有生活困境。你拥有内心的堡垒，这其实是一种非常强大的男性气质，而与此相反，只把一切都以与众不同的女人、高速汽车、虐待和欺凌为乐的观点就是软弱和不安全的表现。男性气质应该是一种安全感、内心的自信和内在的力量，对吧？这才是我们文化应该崇尚的，并且我们应该有这样的偶像。
It doesn't mean that there's no role for men who are not masculine or who have more of the feminine virtues. There's definitely a role for that and we see a lot of that in all sorts of arenas of life. And then there should be a positive model for women, you know, where instead of their appearances being judged by their appearances and having to conform to the ideals of what's hard or not, it's about being incredibly powerful and competent and have expertise and being really successful in your career and as opposed to being continually judged by your appearances, which is very damaging. So these are terrible times. I mean, I feel fortunate that I grew up in a time where there were these kind of models for me to go by. And I think of my father who was a very quiet man and he was just a middle class salesman. He's basically what he was. He just sold for all his whole life. He sold chemical supplies for one company. But he was very dignified. He treated people well. He was very calm and very quiet. But he also was very empathetic. That was my role model for what I think is a good masculine energy. And I think a lot of people just don't have that and they're very lost. And so I don't know what the answer is to that. I can't really produce that out of thin air, but I wish I could. Well, certainly nowadays there are many more, let's say, examples and options of masculine and feminine qualities out there for observation because of social media and because of the Internet. And as you pointed out before, a key feature to becoming a functional human being, especially nowadays, is learning what to ignore.
这并不意味着那些不具备男子气概或拥有更多女性美德的男人没有角色可发挥。绝对有一个角色适合他们，我们在生活的各个领域都能看到很多这样的例子。同时，女性也应该有一个积极的榜样，你知道，不再只以外貌来评判她们，也不需要迎合什么是好看或不好看的理念，而是关注她们的强大、能力和专业知识，在职业上取得真正的成功，而不是不断被外貌所评判，这种情况非常有害。所以当前是可怕的时代。我觉得我很幸运，在我成长的时代有这些榜样供我借鉴。我想起了我的父亲，他是一个非常内敛的人，基本上就是一个中产阶级的销售员。他一生都在为同一家公司销售化学制品。但他非常有尊严，善待他人，非常冷静，非常安静。同时，他也非常有同情心。这就是我心目中良好男性能量的榜样。我认为很多人就是没有这样的榜样，所以他们感到非常迷茫。所以我不知道这个问题的答案是什么。我不能从虚空中创造出来，但我希望我能够。当然，现在因为社交媒体和互联网的原因，我们可以看到更多男性和女性特质的例子和选择，就像你之前指出的，成为一个功能正常的人，特别是在现在，学会忽略哪些是很重要的特点。
I mean, there's an interesting idea in the circles around nutrition and health that never before in human history have human beings been able to access such a wide variety of foods that differ from what their ancestors ate. And I don't even mean ancient ancestors. I mean, if you grew up in the Bay Area, as I did in the 1970s and 80s, there were a few ethnic restaurants, but we ate the same 15 or 20 foods over and over again. And then eventually that exploded into dozens of options and more and fusion foods and all sorts of things. And so there is this idea in the nutrition communities that we are not hardwired to think about and discern so many different food options that, you know, that's. And to taste so many distinct flavors, whereas before people in one portion of the planet or country, generally one way in a given season, their seasonality, et cetera, et cetera. In a similar vein, we are now, and children too, are now overwhelmed with a number of different options of how to express oneself, both masculinity and femininity, but generally speaking. And so the question is then, how does one choose? Right? How does one decide what's functional, what works, what's best, what's me? Right? Everyone asking themselves, who am I? Right? I think all teenagers, I find this fascinating, ask themselves, who am I? Adults don't tend to ask themselves that question, but who am I? I still ask myself.
我的意思是，在营养和健康领域存在一个有趣的观点，即人类历史上从未有过这样一种能够接触到与祖先饮食不同的如此多样化食物的能力。我并不是指古代的祖先。我是说，如果你在1970年代和80年代像我一样在湾区长大，那里会有一些民族餐馆，但我们总是重复食用那15或20种食物。然后，这种选择变成了数十种选项，还有融合食品等各种各样的东西。因此，在营养界存在这样一种观念，即我们没有天生的能力去思考和区分如此多的不同食物选择，也没有能力去品尝如此多种独特的味道，而以往人们在地球或国家的某个地区一般在某个季节都是以一种方式生活的，有明确的季节性等等。类似地，我们现在，包括孩子在内，被不同的表达方式所压倒，无论是男性气质还是女性气质，总体而言。因此，问题就是，我们如何选择？对吗？我们如何决定什么是实用的，什么有效，什么最适合我？对吗？每个人都在问自己，我是谁？对吗？我觉得所有青少年都会觉得这个问题很有趣，问自己，我是谁？成年人往往不会问自己这个问题，但我仍然在问自己。
Okay, well, that's good. I should ask myself that more often. But I think that we clearly have gone over a cliff with this stuff. I don't think we're still at the point where we're kind of veering towards the edge of confusion. I think young people are really confused because the moment one assumes one clear and let's say balanced set of masculine feminine attributes, or maybe there's a bit more masculine or a bit more feminine, it's like there are million examples telling you that that's wrong.
好的，那很好。我应该更经常问自己这个问题。但是我觉得我们明显已经把这个问题搞砸了。我不认为我们还处于游离于困惑之边的阶段。我认为年轻人确实很困惑，因为一旦有人假设了一个明确而平衡的男性女性属性集，或者可能更多地倾向于男性或女性，就会有成千上万的例子告诉你这是错误的。
I know. And then sometimes has the tendency to anchor to, well, no, no, I'm right, because this is who I am. And all of a sudden, you're in a larger battle. So Gary Cooper's great, love his movies. But we now have a million variations on Gary Cooper that don't look anything like the Gary Cooper you and I are talking about. And a lot of people won't even know who we're talking about. But that's perhaps it illustrates the point. No, I'd not that you're a dinosaur, but that there is no single or even set of masculine or feminine ideals.
我知道。有时候人们有倾向执着于“不，不，我是对的，因为这就是我”。突然间，你就卷入了一场更大的斗争。所以，盖里·库珀很伟大，我喜欢他的电影。但现在我们有了许许多多的盖里·库珀的变种，它们看起来与你和我讨论的盖里·库珀完全不一样。很多人甚至不知道我们在谈论谁。但也许这就是点子所在。我并不是说你是个过时的人，而是说没有单一或一组男性或女性的理想形象。
So picking role models is something that I really truly internalized from your book, Mastery. There were a lot of lonely years for me and I won't get into the stories of just wondering, like, what am I going to do? I'm 13, my home was completely broken, no semblance of the reality it was before. Who are the males in my life I'm going to orient to? And fortunately for me, I assigned mentors to me whether or not they knew it or not. That really helped me along and I changed them up as you recommend. There wasn't one. I understood there was a breaking up process, an integration process combining and threading together different things. I think I truly believe that that's what's required. It doesn't have to be 100% Gary Cooper. It can be 10% Robert Green, 10% someone else, 5% this and creating a pie chart of sorts of who, one wishes to be in a given context. But that takes work. It takes a bit of work and discernment. But gosh, that's powerful. And credit goes to you because you were a mentor of mine. You didn't even realize it. In the way that you forged and organized information and there were others. But Mastery is where I learned to do that.
所以，在你的《精通》一书中，选择榜样这件事对我来说真的很内化。对我来说，有很多孤独的岁月，我不想展开讲述，像想知道自己将会做什么，我13岁，我的家庭完全破裂，现实与以往完全不同了。在我的生活中，有哪些男性可以让我参照？对我来说，幸运的是，我给自己指定了一些导师，无论他们是否知道。那真的帮助了我，并且如你所建议的，我经常改变导师。并不只有一个。我理解这是一个分拆的过程，一个将不同的事物结合和编织在一起的整合过程。我真的相信这是必要的。它不必是100%的Gary Cooper。可以是10% Robert Green，10%其他人，5%这个人，然后在特定情境下创建一个饼状图来展示希望成为谁。但这需要努力。需要一些努力和辨识力。但是，天呐，那是强大的。还有功劳要归于你，因为你是我的导师。即使你自己没有意识到。在你整理和组织信息的方式上，以及其他方面，都有其他人。但是，《精通》是我学会这样做的地方。
And this is not a podcast that's a sales pitch for Mastery. But gosh, it really taught me, okay, I have a graduate advisor. She was wonderful and brilliant. But she didn't know how to explain a lot of things to me. So I'd find someone else for that. And someone else for the other thing. And someone else for the other thing. And together create a patchwork of really excellent mentors that made a lot of sense to me. So I think there's a role for that process that you spell out in Mastery in the larger context of who to become as a person. And that includes masculine and feminine ideals.
这并不是一个为《掌握》(Mastery)进行推销的播客节目。但是，天哪，它真的教会了我很多东西。好吧，我有一个研究生导师。她很棒，也很聪明。但她并不知道如何向我解释很多事情。所以我会找其他人来解答。有人来解答其他问题，还有人来解答其他问题。然后，我们共同创造了一个由非常优秀的导师构成的拼凑图景，这对我来说很有意义。所以我认为，在成为一个人的更大背景下，这个在《掌握》中描述的过程有其作用。这涉及到男性和女性的理想形象。
Yeah, and it's an ongoing process throughout your life. So who you glommed on to when you were 14 or 15 will change when you're 19. I had a series of people like you're talking about. My high school English teacher had an enormous impact on me who taught me basically how to write. I internalized his voice. When I went to Berkeley, I had a professor there who became my kind of surrogate father at Berkeley who I deeply admired for his level of scholarship. So he became kind of an intellectual role model. Later in life, when I finally wrote my first book, I met a man, Yo Stealthers, who was a book packager who understood the business, et cetera. He kind of saved me. He was sort of my mentor for the next phase in my life. So on and on and on, I found people. But they have positive qualities, qualities they admire. They're not perfect. Everyone is flawed. And so at some point, maybe you see too many of the flaws. You go on, I need somebody new in my life. But there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like you're violating any codes or hurting them. You move on to somebody else. But the sense of finding people whose qualities you admire, we don't learn from people just by following their ideas. We pick up their energy, their spirit. Now you didn't necessarily pick up my energy or spirit from reading master, although maybe you did, I don't know. But when you're interacting with that professor at Stanford or whatever, it's not just verbally, there's kind of a nonverbal communication going on. You're internalizing some of the positive qualities that you saw in them and finding these series of mentors, because I call it surrogate parents.
是的，这是一个贯穿你一生的持续过程。所以当你14或15岁时依附的人，在你19岁时会发生变化。我像你说的那样，有一系列的人。我的高中英语老师对我产生了巨大的影响，他教给了我如何写作的基本知识。我内化了他的声音。当我去伯克利时，在那里有一位教授成为了我的替代父亲，我非常钦佩他的学术水平。所以他成为了我的智识榜样。后来，当我终于写了我的第一本书时，我遇到了一位名叫约·斯特尔西斯的男士，他是一位了解这个业务的书籍打包者。他拯救了我。他在我生活的下一个阶段成为了我的导师。所以我一直在寻找这样的人。但他们都有积极的品质，值得我钦佩的品质。他们并不完美。每个人都有缺点。所以也许在某个时候，你会看到太多缺点。你会说，我需要生活中的新的人。但这并没有错。你跟其他人建立关系，并不违反任何规定，也不会伤害到他们。但是找到你钦佩品质的人的感觉是重要的。我们不仅通过追随他们的思想来从他们那里学到东西。我们还从他们身上汲取能量、精神。现在你并没有通过读我的书来感受到我的能量或精神，尽管也许你做到了，我不知道。但当你与那位斯坦福的教授或其他人互动时，不仅仅是通过口头交流，还有一种非言语的交流。你会内化他们身上你认为积极的品质，并找到一系列的导师，因为我把他们称为替代父母。
You can't choose your father and mother, but you can choose these ideals for you. You can choose these mentors in your life. You can kind of rewrite your family history and find that father figure you never had by glomming onto this person. But it has to be the right fit. It has to be someone that you connect to emotionally and intellectually, and that has the positive qualities you wish for yourself.
你无法选择自己的父母，但你可以选择这些理想给自己。你可以选择这些人生导师。你可以重新书写你的家族历史，并通过依附于某个人找到你从未拥有的父亲形象。但这个人必须是合适的。你需要与他在情感和智力方面有连结，并且他必须具备你所期望的积极品质。
Well, I'll embarrass you perhaps by saying that since I was a freshman in college, which is really when I turned my academic life around and really my life around, I've maintained the same notebook with a list of names of people that I admire and who I'm trying to emulate in some way, not in every way, certainly. Certain names have been crossed off, but most of them have survived. And certainly, after reading mastery, your name made that list. And I hope I'm not being crossed off at some point. No, not at all. Not at all. And through reading mastery, there were additional names. I had the great misfortune of having all three of my academic advisors die, suicide cancer cancer, which sounds tragic. The joke in my field is you don't want me to work for you. That's what everyone says. But by being essentially scientifically orphaned, because there's a strong mentor-mentee relationship in science and progression through the career track, it forced me to go out and find other people and also to learn how to quote-unquote mother and father myself in the context of profession. And I got a lot of help. But I can't emphasize enough how valuable that practice is.
好吧，我可能会令你尴尬，因为自从我上大学以来，也就是我真正改变了学术生活和整个人生的时候，我一直保留着同一个笔记本，上面列有我欣赏并希望在某种程度上效仿的人的名字，当然不是在所有方面效仿。其中有些名字已经划掉了，但大部分名字依然在。当然，在阅读完《Mastery》之后，你的名字也加入了这个列表。希望我不会被划掉。不，一点也不，绝对不会。在阅读《Mastery》的过程中，还有其他的名字。我非常不幸地经历了我所有三位学术导师相继去世的情况，分别是自杀、癌症和癌症，听起来很悲惨。在我的领域里，有个笑话是你不想让我为你工作。每个人都这样说。但由于我被一直没有导师支持的情况，因为科学领域有着强大的导师-学生关系和职业发展，这迫使我去寻找其他人，并且学会如何在职业上照顾自己。我得到了很多帮助，但我无法强调这种实践有多么宝贵。
But when one looks out on the landscape of social media options, these are literally just options of people too. We call it following. But it probably should be called something else, because following is fall short of emulating or attempting to emulate. But I think that in the context of masculine and feminine ideals, this is so critical, but it's like the buffet of food is so enormous now. Right. I mean, you've got every cuisine on the table. So to speak. And we're not wired for that. No. And I know personally, I get very agitated and upset. If I go to the market, and I have to choose between 30 items and I have no idea what I want, it makes me really cranky and upset. Whereas if I know, okay, I cannot have this food, I can't have that. I'm only looking for this. Okay, it's easy. It doesn't take two hours and waste my time. Too much choice is very detrimental to the human being, I think.
但是当我们看到社交媒体选项的风景时，这些不仅仅是人们的选择。我们称之为关注。但实际上，它可能应该被称为其他什么，因为关注并不足以模仿或试图模仿。但我认为在男性和女性理想的背景下，这是如此关键，但现在食物自助餐如此丰富多样。对，我的意思是，你可以在餐桌上找到各种各样的菜肴。可以这么说。而我们并不适应这种情况。不。我个人知道，如果我去市场上，在30个选项之间选择，我不知道自己想要什么，我会感到非常烦躁和不安。而如果我知道，好的，我不能吃这个食物，也不能吃那个。我只寻找这个。好的，很容易。不需要花两个小时或浪费我的时间。我认为过多的选择对人类是非常不利的。
And that's why we're going back to what I originally said. When you have that sense of purpose about your life, about what's important, it not just infects your career, but it infects everything you do. So you know, eating this food is going to drain me of my energy that I need to create this thing that means so much to me and energy and feeling my brain active and alive is an incredibly important value. All right, I'm not going to eat all that sugar because it's bad for me. Right. It means I'm not going to get outraged by these things on the internet because it's a waste of time. I can't do anything about it. It's just feeding on my, you know, on my, I forget the part of the brain that's slightly amygdala or whatever. Right? So no, I don't want to go there. Right? And on and on and on. All these things in social media, some of it's good. Some of it's interesting. I can follow Andrew Hubermann's podcast and I enjoy that and I learn a lot from it. But a lot of these podcasts are useless. They're not helping me in any way. So it gives you this kind of filter and this radar to cut out those hundred different choices that drive us absolutely crazy. And I know maybe I'm partially, maybe I'm a little bit, I don't know. I say I'm maybe I'm partially on the spectrum or something, but I can't stand too many choices. It completely drives me nuts. So I always have to kind of funnel my energy into something, to things that are productive.
因此，这就是为什么我们回到了我最初说的那个观点。当你对生活有了那种目标感，对重要的事物有了认知，它不仅仅影响你的职业生涯，而且渗透到你所做的一切。所以你知道，吃这种食物会消耗我所需要用来创造那对我来说意义重大的事物的能量，而拥有充沛的精力和头脑活跃是非常重要的价值观。好吧，我不会吃太多糖，因为对我身体不好。对，意味着我不会为互联网上的那些事情感到愤怒，因为这是浪费时间。我对此无能为力。它只是在消耗我的，你知道的，我忘记了那个稍微与杏仁核有些关联的大脑部位。所以，不，我不想继续下去。就这样不断地反复。社交媒体上的种种事物，其中一些是好的，一些是有趣的。我可以关注安德鲁・胡伯曼的播客，我很喜欢，并从中学到了很多东西。但很多这些播客是没有用处的。它们对我没有任何帮助。所以它给了你这种过滤器和雷达能力，可以摒弃那些让我们彻底发疯的一百种不同选择。也许我部分地，或许我稍微有点，我不知道。我说也许我部分地处于自闭谱系。但我受不了太多的选择。它完全让我发疯。所以我总是需要将我的精力集中到一些有生产力的事物上。
And having a sense of your purpose whenever you discovered in your twenties, hopefully, gives you that ability to say, these are the positive role models I want in my life. These are the mentors.
在你二十多岁时，如果能够了解自己的目标，那么有希望能够获得选择的能力，你可以说，这些人是我生活中想要的积极榜样，这些人是我的导师。
And the thing about following people on social media is it's so easy. It's just a click. It doesn't mean anything. A mentor relationship takes work. It takes courage because you have to actually go up to somebody and physically ask for their help. And a lot of people write to me say, I'm afraid of asking this important, powerful person to be their mentee.
在社交媒体上关注别人的好处在于非常容易，只需要点一下即可。这并不意味着什么。而一个导师关系需要付出努力。它需要勇气，因为你必须真正地接近某个人并亲自请求他们的帮助。很多人写信给我说，他们害怕向这些重要、有影响力的人提出成为他们的学生的请求。
So it involves a sense of social courage where you have to literally engage with another human being who you admire and who you think is powerful. So it's building your social skills, etc. But it's a skill you develop. You can't just follow someone. You can't just watch their lectures. You have to engage with them and you have to get over some of your fears and your anxieties in the process.
所以这涉及到一种社交勇气，你必须真正与你敬佩并认为强大的他人进行交流。这是在培养你的社交技巧等方面。但这是一种你需要培养的技能。你不能只是跟随他人，也不能只是观看他们的讲座。你必须与他们接触，并在这个过程中克服你的一些恐惧和焦虑感。
And I might add to it, I think everything you say is absolutely true. And I think engaging in the various tools that they recommend is immensely helpful. Like I think hearing about a book is great. Reading a book is even better. Thinking about a book is even that you read is even better than that. And then writing down your own ideas and writing a book, well, that's the big win, right? And that's what the world, I believe, that's what the universe wants from us. Not necessarily to write a book, but translate what I just said to any number of different endeavors.
我想要补充的是，我认为你说的一切都是绝对正确的。而且，我认为参与他们推荐的各种工具是极其有帮助的。比如，听说一本书很好。阅读一本书更好。思考你所读的书甚至比阅读更好。然后将自己的想法写下来并写一本书，那才是真正的巨大收获，对吗？我相信，这就是世界和宇宙希望我们做的。并不是一定要写书，而是将我刚才说的话转化到各种不同的努力中。
You want to be able to think for yourself, right? So you're not just absorbing ideas from other people and kind of mimicking them and kind of just learning the exteriors of their ideas. You want to kind of digest them and then have them slowly become your own ideas by interacting with them and by creating and putting them through your own lens. So someday it's a book stirring in me, is the art of thinking and how to use that kind of process and go deeper into it. And I talked a lot about it in one of my podcasts, which might be the seed of a book.
你想要有自己的思考能力，对吧？所以你不想只是吸收他人的想法，像模像样地模仿他们，只是学习他们观点的外表。你希望将这些想法消化，并通过与它们互动、创造并运用你自己的视角，使它们逐渐成为你自己的想法。因此，迟早有一天，这在我内心激荡的是一本关于思考的艺术以及如何运用这种过程并深入其中的书籍。我在其中一期播客中讲了很多关于它的内容，或许这是一本书的种子。
But it's the difference between dead thinking and alive thinking. Ideas can be either alive or they can be dead. And a live idea is something that enters your brain from an external source, a philosopher, an article somebody you admire, somebody you hate. And then you absorb it and you think about it and you decide, I'm going to turn it around into this and I'm going to make it alive and make it something that's part of me.
这是死板思维和活跃思维之间的区别。想法可以是活跃的，也可以是死板的。活跃的想法指的是从外部源头进入你脑海的，比如哲学家、一篇文章、一个你崇拜的人、一个你憎恨的人。然后你吸收它，思考它，决定把它变成自己的一部分，给它赋予生命力，使之成为你的一部分。
Another part of an alive idea is you have an idea that comes to you about a book or a project or something about the world and you go, maybe that's not actually true. Maybe the opposite is true and you go through a process and you cycle through it on and you reflect on it and you refine this idea. And maybe it turns into its opposite and through the process of reflecting and correcting and revising it. You turn it into something living, something alive within you, right? On and on and on.
一个活生生的想法的另一个组成部分是，当你对一本书、一个项目或世界上的某件事情产生一个想法时，你会想，也许那并不是真实的。也许相反的是真实的，你会经历一个过程，你会反复思考并反思，不断推敲和完善这个想法。也许它会变成它的反面，并通过反省、纠正和修订的过程，将其转化为一种在你内心中活跃的东西，对吧？然后循环往复。
And what prevents people from going through that process, which would be the subject of my book, is basically anxiety. Because I think how you handle anxiety is the most important kind of quality and life-based determine whether you will be successful, whether you will find your career path, or whether you won't be able to. I don't know if you can follow that idea at all.
然后，阻止人们去经历那个过程（这将是我书的主题）的基本原因就是焦虑。因为我认为如何处理焦虑是最重要的品质和生活决定因素，决定了你是否能成功，是否能找到自己的职业道路，或者你是否无法做到。我不知道你是否能理解这个观点。
But anxiety is a signal to you that you don't understand something, that there's a problem out there that you can't resolve. And so what happens to most people, if you're insecure, is you glom on to something instant and easy to get rid of your feeling of anxiety. I don't understand this problem. Oh, it must be a, must be the answer because this person said that, right? And so you don't develop the ability to think, you don't develop the ability to go to the next level.
但是焦虑是一种信号，告诉你有一些你不明白的东西，有一个你无法解决的问题。所以大多数人，特别是不安全感强的人，会迅速找到一些简单的方法来摆脱焦虑的感觉。我不明白这个问题，哦，也许是这个理由，因为那个人说过对吧？因此，你就无法培养思考的能力，无法进一步提升。
But if you take that anxiety and you go, all right, maybe a is an answer. And then you start going through a and then you go, no, maybe a isn't the answer, maybe b is the answer. You're able to surmount your anxiety and go past it further and further and further. You don't rush for the first available answer that's out there, right? You're able to go through a process of refining things.
但是如果你将那种焦虑转化为这样的思维方式：“也许a是一个答案。”然后你开始思考a，但并不确定它是否是答案，也许b才是正确的答案。你能够克服焦虑，并且持续不断地深入思考。你不会匆忙地选择最容易得到的答案，对吧？你能够通过一个不断完善的过程逐渐找到答案。
And so in your career, if you're anxious for success, if you're anxious for money, you're going to make the wrong choices. But if you're able to deal with that anxiety and say, maybe I have to think more deeply about where I'm going. If you have to come up with other alternatives, then you're going to make a much better choice on and on and on.
所以在你的职业生涯中，如果你迫切渴望成功，迫切渴望金钱，你会做出错误的选择。但是，如果你能够处理这种焦虑并说，也许我需要更深入地思考自己的目标，如果你能够提出其他的选择，那么你将能够做出更好的选择，持续下去。
So how, if you deal, if you're a creative person, it's very, very challenging to have that blank piece of paper before you, that book that you haven't written, that film or whatever, you're filled with a lot of anxiety and you have to deal with it. And if you're able to turn it into something creative and productive, then great things will happen. You'll create a masterpiece. The ability to deal with anxiety and to not give into the most instant gratification that you can get is to me, a marker of somebody who will be creative and will invent something as opposed to people who just recycle old and dead ideas.
对于创意人来说，如何应对一张空白纸、一本尚未写成的书或是一部未制作的电影等等，是非常非常具有挑战性的。面对此时内心充满焦虑，需要克服它。如果你能够将其转化为创造性和富有生产力的东西，伟大的事情将会发生。你会创造出一部杰作。对我来说，处理焦虑并不追求最即时的满足感，是创意和发明能力的标志，而不仅仅是重复利用旧思想或死板观念的人。
Amen to that. I was once told that anxiety makes children of us all, and not in the positive sense of being childlike. It regresses us to a mode where we feel a complete lack of control. I completely agree that being able to manage anxiety and work dance with it, since we can't rid ourselves of it. No. Perhaps nor should we, because it's a signal, as you point out, that we don't understand something that there's something to get curious about, a process or something out there or both. I think that really resonates. I think a lot of people benefit from hearing that because I think we hear the word flow and we just all imagine, I even catch myself imagining that when Robert Greene sits down to write, it's like there's a blank sheet, and then he just kind of meditates and then boom, outcome these books.
对此点头称是。有人曾经告诉我，焦虑让我们都变得像孩子一样，但并非是指积极的孩子气。它将我们退回到一种完全失去控制感的状态。我完全同意，我们要学会管理焦虑并与之共舞，因为我们无法摆脱它。不，或许我们也不应该，因为正如你所指出的，它是一个信号，表明我们不明白某件事情，我们应该对此感到好奇，去探索一个过程或者外部世界中的某些东西，或者两者同时存在。我认为这一点非常共鸣。我认为很多人会从中受益，因为当我们听到"流动"这个词时，我们就会想象，我甚至常常幻想，当罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）坐下来写作时，就好像有一张白纸，然后他静静沉思，然后突然，他的书就完成了。
But if I get realistic for a second, I'm sure that there's a lot of inner turmoil and anxiety. Oh my god, you have no idea. So my process is 95% pain and maybe 2.5% ecstasy, and I don't know what the other 2.5% would be. So I write a story, because all in my new book and most of my books, I always begin with a story from history, etc. It is so bad. I just can't believe how bad, how flat it is, how it sucks. I'm so embarrassed, I hate myself, and then I go and I dig into it and I start changing the words in it. I start making it a little bit better. The second version, it's kind of palatable, but it still sucks. If I let it down in the world, it would be very embarrassing. It's anxious, and my wife can tell you, I'm a miserable being when that happens. Everything looks black to me at that point. And I push through it.
但是，如果我现实一点的话，我敢肯定内心有很多纷争和焦虑。哦天啊，你完全不了解。所以我的创作过程95%都是痛苦，可能只有2.5%的快乐，至于另外的2.5%我就不知道是什么了。所以我写一个故事，因为在我的新书和大部分书中，我总是以历史故事作为开头。它实在是太糟糕了。我简直无法相信它有多糟糕，多平淡，多令人厌恶。我太尴尬了，我讨厌我自己，然后我开始深入挖掘，并开始修改其中的文字。我尽量让它变得稍微好一点。第二个版本，也许已经能够接受，但仍然很糟糕。如果我让它在世界上流传，那将是非常尴尬的。我焦虑不安，而我的妻子可以告诉你，当这种情况发生时，我会变得非常痛苦。在那时，一切对我来说都是黑暗的。但我还是坚持下去。
So if I gave in to my anxiety, and this happens with a lot of books and writers, I would just put out that second version, which isn't very good, it isn't very strong. It isn't thought through, because my ideas, when I look at them the first time I go, that's not real. That's not the actual thing that's going on here, Robert. You've missed the mark. You want to hit what's actually real in that story. So you have to go deeper and deeper and harder and harder and harder. So I don't just give up and go, here's the chapter. It's got to be better. It's got to be better. Until finally, after two months of struggling, it seems like it's gone to the place that I want it to be in. But I use that anxiety to keep improving and making it better. And then when I reach that point and the story is good enough and I can let my wife read it and then my editor, I feel great. I have that 2% moment of joy. But it came through all of that anxiety. But I can tell you, the feeling of fulfillment when I finish a chapter is pretty damn great. When I finish a book, it's better than any kind of drug experience anyone could ever have. It's such a wonderful feeling of accomplishment and pushing past all the barriers. So my process involves a lot of anxiety and dealing with that's why I'm talking about it and why I want to write a book about it.
所以，如果我屈服于我的焦虑，这在很多书籍和作家身上都会发生，我就会发布那个第二个版本，它不是很好，不是很强大。它没有经过深思熟虑，因为当我第一次看到我的想法时，我会说，那不是真实的。那不是真实发生在这里的事情，罗伯特。你错过了目标。你想要击中真正发生在故事中的事情。所以你必须更加深入、更加努力、更加努力、更加努力。所以我不会放弃并说，这是一章。它必须变得更好。它必须变得更好。直到最后，经过两个月的挣扎，它似乎达到了我想要的境地。但我利用这种焦虑来不断改进和使其更好。然后，当我达到那一点，故事足够好了，我可以让我妻子和我的编辑阅读时，我感到非常棒。我有那2%的快乐时刻。但这一切都是通过那样的焦虑来实现的。但我可以告诉你，完成一章时的成就感非常棒。完成一本书时，它比任何人可以经历的药物体验都要好。这是一种美妙的成就感，克服了所有的障碍。所以我的过程涉及很多焦虑和处理这种焦虑的原因，这也是我谈论它并想要写一本书的原因。
Thank you for sharing that. I'm attempting to write a book and have been for several years and now I feel a little bit better. But clearly I need to ratchet down harder. But in other domains of life, I am familiar with the experience of tons of anxiety and just, you know, okay, I'm going to just get to this one milestone. And then I'll figure out the next milestone. But even that process of saying, okay, I'm going to break this down into milestones, itself is anxiety provoking. Sure. But at some point it generates enough inertia that you just sort of stumble forward into the process and then keep going. So trying to bloody oneself too much. I think a lot of people will benefit from hearing about that. In fact, I'm certain they will.
谢谢您分享这个。我一直想写一本书，已经好几年了，现在感觉好了一些。但显然我还需要更努力地推进。可是在生活的其他领域，我对于感受到大量焦虑是非常熟悉的，但是你知道的，我只要能够达到一个里程碑就好了。然后再弄清下一个里程碑。但是即使这个过程本身就会引发焦虑。当然。但是在某个点上，它会产生足够的动力，让你一种踉跄前行的感觉，然后继续前进。所以，试图过度纠结于细节是不必要的。我相信很多人会从中受益。事实上，我确信他们会。
So speaking of anxiety, you have a clip on the internet that we will provide a link to in the show note captions, which I think is absolutely fabulous about how to find a romantic partner and or get more out of an existing romantic partnership. I don't even remember what I said. You're going to have to remind? Oh, it's so good.
所以说到焦虑，你在互联网上有一个视频，我们会在节目注释中提供链接，我认为这个视频非常棒，它教授如何找到一个浪漫的伴侣，或者如何更好地经营现有的浪漫关系。我甚至不记得自己说了什么。你得提醒我一下是什么内容？哦，它太棒了。
One point in particular that I remember that I think is oh, so true is that there needs to be at least one and probably several. Points of like real convergence in terms of ones interests or likes that go beyond like what food somebody likes or. You know, what type of house they want to live in, but. That actually traces back to these early forms of delight and you mentioned.
我特别记得并且认为非常真实的一个观点是，至少需要有一个，或者可能是几个具有真正的共同点，超越了某人喜欢的食物或者想要居住的房子的类型。而是源自早期的喜悦形式，正如你所提到的。
That for you and therefore presumably your partner that, you know, a mutual love and respect for animals happens to be one of those things within the context of you. You know, it's not that you're not going to be a woman who didn't love animals. Right. My sister used to tease me that if a woman gave me a birthday card or a card that had a drawing of a particular animal, which I'm particularly fond of, my sister used to have an older sister and she used to say, oh, no, it's over. He's gone. You know that it would, you know, fortunately it's not that simple.
这句话的意思是，对于你，也因此可能是你的伴侣，互相热爱和尊重动物，是你们的共同点之一。你知道，这并不意味着你不会是一个不爱动物的女人。对吧。我姐姐以前常常取笑我，说如果一个女人送我一张生日卡或者有一只我特别喜欢的动物的画的卡片，她是我姐姐，她以前常常说，哦，不行了，他完了。你知道，幸运的是，事实并非如此简单。
But there's some truth to what she was saying. It's certainly it's necessary, but not sufficient. But maybe you could elaborate a little bit on this notion of conversion interest and contrast it with a lot of what people tend to hear and say about what's important in partnership. Because I think this is something that a lot of people grapple with both in terms of finding a partner and in terms of building partnership.
但她所说的有一些道理。那确实是必要的，但并不足够。但或许你可以稍微详细说明一下对于"转化兴趣"的概念，并与人们通常听到和说到的合作伙伴重要性进行对比。因为我觉得这是很多人在寻找伴侣和建立合作伙伴关系中都难以理解的问题。
Well, you have to, you know, there's different relationships you can have. I mean, do you want like a one week, a one month relationship? Are you looking for something longer, more satisfying that will entail, you know, maybe years of being together? And, you know, people can get very boring very quickly, right? Particularly if you can't have a conversation with them about subjects that interest you.
嗯，你得知道，人与人之间可以有不同的关系。我的意思是，你想要一周的、一个月的关系吗？还是你希望找到更长久、更令人满意的关系，可能需要几年的时间来共同经历？而且，你知道的，人们很快就会变得非常无聊，特别是如果你无法与他们进行你感兴趣的话题的对话。
And so you mentioned animals. Animals is a very good example because it's not, I'm not saying that you both have to be Democrats or Republicans. That's too banal and superficial. But the love of animals reaches into your character, reaches something deep inside of you, or you're just like of animals that happens to be the case. But it signals something about it that's so primal, that's so connected to a child that there's going to be a deep connection there.
所以你提到了动物。动物是一个非常好的例子，因为我并不是说你们都必须成为民主党人或共和党人。那太平凡和肤浅了。但是对动物的爱渗透到了你们的性格，触及到了你们内心深处，或者你们只是碰巧喜欢动物而已。但它传达了一种如此原始、与儿童如此紧密相连的东西，那里面一定会有一种深深的连接。
And it's all like you have to both love cats, which is good if that happens to be the case, but just animals in general, you love their energy. You love the fact that they're innocent in their own way. You love the fact that they're not playing games with you. You love the kind of instant love you can get from them kind of thing. And you connect to them on that level is a very, very positive sign because it goes beyond just intellectual things into something emotional and visceral.
而且，你不仅要喜欢猫，如果恰好是这样的话那是很好的，也要喜欢动物总体上，喜欢它们的活力。你喜欢它们以自己的方式无辜的事实。你喜欢它们不和你玩虚情假意的事实。你喜欢你可以从它们身上获得那种即刻的爱。而且你在这方面与它们建立联系是一个非常非常积极的迹象，因为它超越了仅仅是知性的东西，进入了情感和本能的领域。
So really the emotional connections, the values that you have together are very important. Money is another one that's extremely important. So if one of you is incredibly material oriented and it's all about money is power and success and comfort, and the other isn't really into it. It's into spending money, etc. A lot of people have endless fights or something like money, right? There's no convergence there. And money signals a deeper value about the person.
所以，真正重要的是情感关系和你们共同拥有的价值观。金钱也是一个极其重要的因素。所以，如果其中一个人非常注重物质，认为金钱意味着权力、成功和舒适，而另一个人不是非常在意这些，更喜欢花钱等等，很多人就会因为金钱产生无尽的争吵对吧？在这方面没有共识。而金钱也体现了人的更深层次的价值观。
So I'm not saying there's anything wrong if money motivates you. I'm not moralizing about it because that can signal a value that maybe you grew up without it and that feeling comfortable and feeling like you don't have to worry about something is very, very important to you. And they'll not be interested in money, reveal something about your character.
所以我并不是说如果金钱刺激你没有什么错。我并不是在进行道德说教，因为这可能暗示了一个价值观，也许你是在没有金钱的环境中长大的，感觉舒适、无需担心某些事情对你来说非常重要。而且，对金钱不感兴趣也能透露出你品格的一些特征。
So I'm telling people you want to look at the person's character and see a kind of convergence there and something that can last. And I remember I was reading for one of my books about Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt. And the thing of it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt was his incredibly handsome, vibrant young man before he got polio, very active, very athletic, very handsome.
所以我告诉大家要看一个人的品格，并且找到一种融合和能够持久的特质。我记得在我为弗兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福和埃莉诺·罗斯福写的其中一本书中，事情是这样的：弗兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福在患上小儿麻痹前是一个非常英俊、充满活力的年轻人，非常活跃、运动能力极强、相貌出众。
And all of the women were after him. He was like the perfect match. He was wealthy. And Eleanor Roosevelt was like the ugly duckling. She wasn't very pretty. She was kind of socially awkward. But he signed to her character. He saw that intellectually she was a match for him. He saw that they had kind of similar interests on that level that I'm talking about, the go beneath just the surfaces.
所有的女人都对他着迷。他就像完美的匹配。他很富有。而埃莉诺·罗斯福就像丑小鸭一样。她并不漂亮。她有一种社交上的笨拙。但他着迷于她的个性。他看到她在智力上与他匹配。他发现他们在某种程度上有着相似的兴趣，我所指的是深入了解彼此的层面。
And he chose Eleanor and everyone was shocked about it. Nobody was trying to court Eleanor. I've read her last name at the time. I think she might have been in Beaver Roosevelt. So it was very shocking. He said, I looked at somebody who I could last with who had some qualities that were much more important to me. And it ended up being a very satisfying relationship. Of course, later on he had his downiences, so it wasn't perfect. But it was a very positive relationship. So seeing your values in life, when it comes to money, when it comes to career, when it comes to comfort or lack of comfort, some people like not being comfortable. They like being on the edge. They want challenges. They want to move from city to city kind of thing. And if you partner with somebody who just wants to live in the same house, you're going to have conflict after conflict after conflict.
他选择了埃莉诺，这让大家都感到震惊。没有人试图追求埃莉诺。那个时候我读到了她的姓氏。我想她可能是贝弗鲁斯福特（Beaver Roosevelt）的人。所以这真的让人很震惊。他说，我找到一个我可以和她长久相处的人，她这些品质对我来说更重要。最终这成为一段非常满意的关系。当然，后来他也遇到一些挫折，所以并不完美。但这是一段非常积极的关系。所以，当涉及到金钱、事业、舒适与不舒适的时候，人们的价值观也会有所不同。有些人不喜欢舒适，喜欢走在边缘。他们寻求挑战，喜欢从一个城市搬到另一个城市。如果你与一个只想住在同一个房子里的人建立伴侣关系，你们将会一次又一次地发生冲突。
The sex might be great. And that might be good for a month or two months. I have nothing against that. I'm not going to judge that either. But it won't lead to a long-lasting relationship. Sports and athletics are another thing. It's just someone that likes the outdoors or is it someone who's like Zha Zha Gaborne has to be in a penthouse in Manhattan. So values that reach inside of a character that are deeply ingrained, that you can almost not change. You can't control. There's a convergence there on several levels. It's a sign that you can have a deep connection with that person. It's very important. And if those connections are good, and there's a physical attraction, because without the physical attraction, it will kind of fizzle out. You've got a recipe for incredible success, for something that can really last. And having a lasting relationship as I've had is such an anchor in your life. For me, for someone who works as hard as I do, and hopefully for her as well, it just grounds me and it makes life so much simpler and easier. And it's not just simple and easy. There's a lot of love and a great deal of deeper emotions involved. But having a long-term relationship, if you can have it, is something that pays off in so many dividends.
可能性很大。这可能对一个月或两个月来说是好的。我对此无所反对。我也不会对此进行评判。但这不会导致一个长期的关系。体育和运动是另一回事。这只是一个喜欢户外活动的人，还是像Zha Zha Gaborne那样非要住在曼哈顿的顶层公寓里。因此，价值观扎根于一个人的内心，并且几乎无法改变。你无法控制它。在几个层面上有一个交汇点。这是你与对方能够建立深厚联系的标志。这非常重要。如果这些联系都很好，并且有身体上的吸引力，因为没有身体上的吸引力，关系会逐渐消失。你会拥有一个令人难以置信的成功配方，能够真正持久。对我来说，拥有长久的关系是我生活中的锚。对于像我一样努力工作的人，希望对她而言也是如此，它让我脚踏实地，使生活变得更简单。这不仅仅是简单和容易。其中包含着很多爱和更深层次的情感。但如果你能够拥有长期的关系，那么它将带来很多回报。
So being able to find that kind of convergence. You know, when I first met my now my wife, I had a cat at the time. I'd always been a dog person, but this was a cat I had, and I love that cat like how I can't believe he was such a wonderful cat. I brought her over to my apartment on the first date. I wanted to see her reaction to the cat, you know, because I generally, and I don't know people misjudge that women who don't like cats, I can't get along with. Right? Because there's something feline in the feminine nature that I love. And she loved my cat. Boy, that was the best sign of all. And things just blossomed. And she loved me for loving a cat. So there was a great convergence right there that we saw right away. And there were other things, but that was the first one. I love that story. And everything you just said suggests, I believe, that in order to find the right partner and to build an existing partnership that hopefully feels at least partially right to people, that it requires at least some knowing of self. Because unless you know your character, one's own character, then it's impossible to really determine if somebody else's character is going to mesh well with it or not.
所以能够找到这种共鸣的感觉真的很重要。你知道，当我第一次见到我的妻子时，那时我有一只猫。我一直是个爱狗的人，但我养过一只猫，我爱那只猫，真的难以置信，她是一只如此美好的猫。我在第一次约会时就把她带到了我的公寓。我想看看她对猫的反应，因为通常情况下，不喜欢猫的女性我是无法相处的。对吧？因为我喜欢女性天性中带有猫的某种特质。而她喜欢我的猫。天啊，那可真是最好的迹象。于是一切就这样开始了。她因为我喜欢一只猫而爱上了我。所以我们当时就看到了这种美妙的共同点。当然还有其他的共同点，但这是第一个。我喜欢这个故事。而你刚才说的一切都表明，我相信，要找到合适的伴侣并建立一个至少在某种程度上对人们来说感觉是正确的现存伴侣关系，至少需要了解自己一些。因为除非你了解自己的性格，否则就不可能真正确定别人的性格是否与之相契合。
Self-awareness is actually the most important quality in life for all aspects. But yeah, I mean, if we go by social pressures, a man will choose a trophy wife who looks sexy and hot and will impress all of his male friends, etc, etc. You go by the things that culture tells you that these are the right images for you, right? And then there won't be any connection to you because you're choosing for purposes that don't connect to who you are. And so you have to know yourself. You have to know what you love. You have to know what you hate. I think most people know that they love animals or don't love animals. I think most people know that they like stability or they like things to be kind of slightly chaotic. I don't think you have to go through deep levels of introspection.
自我意识实际上是生活中各个方面最重要的品质。但是，如果我们根据社会压力来说，一个男人会选择一个外貌性感、火辣、会给他的男性朋友们留下深刻印象的金童或玉女。你按照文化告诉你的标准来选择，对吗？但是这样选择是没有和你自己产生连接的，因为你是出于与自己无关的目的做出的选择。所以你必须了解自己。你必须知道你喜欢什么，你讨厌什么。我认为大多数人知道他们喜欢动物还是不喜欢动物。我认为大多数人知道他们喜欢稳定还是喜欢有点混乱。我不认为你必须进行深入的内省。
But what you have to do is when you're involved in a relationship, you have to think that those things matter. That's the problem. You tend to think that those things, but you think that sex matters more than anything, physical attraction matters. Or you think that the person having a lot of money matters, etc, etc. You don't think that this other aspect is important. If you value what I'm talking about, then your self-awareness will kick in because you really basically know these essential basic parts about your own character. I think people sometimes get distracted by admiration of qualities that they might find admirable, but that don't mesh with their own character. I've seen this many times before where someone will say, someone will start listing off the positive attributes of the person that they happen to be dating. He does this blank blank and blank. She does this. He volunteers, etc. And that's all great. I mean volunteering for good causes. I'm all in support of that.
但是你必须要做的是，当你参与感情关系时，你必须意识到这些事情的重要性。这就是问题所在。你往往认为那些事情很重要，但你更认为性和外貌吸引力更重要。或者你认为对方有很多钱很重要，等等。你不认为这另一方面很重要。如果你重视我所说的，那么你的自我意识会觉醒，因为你基本上了解自己性格的这些基本要素。我认为人们有时会被他们可能认为令人钦佩的品质所分心，但这些品质与他们自己的性格不符。我以前见过很多次这种情况，有人会列举他们正在约会的人的积极特质。他能做到这个这个和这个。她能做到这个。他志愿做这个，等等。这些都很好。我是支持为善事而志愿服务的。
But then what they're overlooking often, it seems, is whether or not that's a core value for them or whether or not it's just something that they admire. I hear a lot of admiration in the early days of relationships that later I hear about failing. What you're talking about is something deeper, more aligned with one's own sense of self. And it almost leads me to use the word, you know, sort of more about energetics. It's like merging of people's energies, which sounds very new, A.G. and that's not my intention. But I think it relates to something that we do hear a lot about and I think it's valid, which is how it feels to be around somebody in different contexts. Do we feel at ease? Do we feel lightness and ability to express ourselves and do we enjoy and admire them in their expression? As opposed to just admiring what they do. They've accomplished blank blank and blank. They manifest these qualities that I wish I had, right? You hear that and aspire to have, which is very different than a meshing of energies.
然而，他们经常忽略的是，他们所追求的东西是否符合他们的核心价值观，或者只是他们所钦佩的。在恋爱初期，我常听到许多钦佩的声音，而在后来却听到了失败的故事。你所谈论的事情更深层次地与一个人的自我感觉相一致。这几乎让我想用一个词，你知道，更多地涉及到能量。它就像是人们能量的融合，这听起来很新颖，A.G.，但这并不是我的意图。但我认为它与我们经常听到的一些事情有关，而且我认为这是合理的，那就是在不同的环境中与某人在一起的感觉是怎样的。我们感到自在吗？我们感到轻松自在，有表达自己的能力吗？我们欣赏并钦佩他们的表达方式吗？与仅仅钦佩他们所做的事情不同。他们取得了空白空白和空白的成就。他们展现出了我希望拥有的品质，对吧？你听到这样的话，渴望拥有，这与能量的融合是非常不同的。
Also, a couple other things. You have to understand their character as well. And people can be very deceptive and very slippery and can wear masks. One telling sign that I've noticed in my own relationships in the past is that the woman would be a certain way with me that I thought was very good and I liked. And then the moment we were with other people, she actually in a way that was very irritating. It's like a different character and I really kind of fell out of love with her when I saw her in social interactions. She revealed, so with me, she was almost wearing a mask and playing a game, but the moment she entered a different circumstance, I saw other aspects to her character. So you also have to be very attentive to their character, what lies underneath, that they have some of these values, but they're not just trying to win you over for whatever, and they're playing along with you.
还有，还有其他一些事情。你必须理解对方的性格。有些人可能非常狡猾和隐瞒真实面目，他们会戴上面具。我在过去的感情关系中注意到了一个明显的迹象，就是女性对我表现得非常好，我很喜欢。然而，当我们和其他人在一起时，她却以一种非常让人烦恼的方式行事。就好像她换了一个角色，当我在社交互动中看到她时，我对她失去了爱意。她在我面前几乎戴着面具玩游戏，但是一旦处于不同的环境，我看到了她性格的其他方面。所以你也必须非常留意对方的性格，看看底下是否隐藏着一些价值观，而不仅仅是为了赢得你的青睐而假装与你一起玩。
The other thing that's very important is a sense of mystery. So a partner can become boring very, very quickly. After a year, you know every single thing about them. They're going to say the same things. There's conversations go around in circles. You've reached an end, there's no surprises, there's no mystery. You want somebody where they have corners that you don't really see at first, that they surprise you sometimes. Suddenly there's a quality that you hadn't suspected before.
另一件非常重要的事情就是神秘感。所以伴侣可以变得非常无聊。一年后，你已经了解他们的一切。他们会说相同的话。对话重复循环。你已经达到了尽头，没有任何惊喜，没有任何神秘感。你希望找到一个人，他们有一些你一开始并没有看到的角落，有时候出乎你的意料。突然之间，出现了一种你之前没有想到过的品质。
So people who are too obvious, who are too familiar, who show everything instantly, they're going to end up boring you, right? But people who have a bit of reserve, I don't know, this is maybe I'm projecting my own values on the world, but people who kind of intrigue you, that you don't fully understand, that make you want to know more, and if they can be like that after two years or three years or five years, wow that's fantastic. But the sense of, I know every single thing about this person, they never surprise me anymore, is what kind of breaks the enchantment and leads to the end of the relationship.
那些太过明显的人，太过熟悉的人，他们立刻就把所有东西展示出来，对吧？但是那些有点保留的人，我不知道，也许这是我把自己的价值观投射到世界上，但是那些使你着迷的人，你无法完全理解的人，他们让你想要了解更多，如果经过两年、三年或五年后，他们仍然能保持这种状态，哇，那真是太棒了。但是当你感觉自己对这个人的一切了如指掌，他们再也不能给你带来惊喜时，就会破坏掉那种迷人的感觉，导致关系的结束。
The idea of more to learn about somebody perhaps also suggests that they are continuing to evolve into forage in the landscape of life. Yeah. They're not fully baked, which I think is an interesting idea. During the four episode series that we did on mental health, Paul Conti, a psychiatrist, said that a matching of generative drives, which he defined as the desire to create something in the world of one's own expression, is really critical in relationship. And he said, it matters less whether or not one person likes classical music and the other person rock and roll provided that their relationship to music is similar or something of that sort. Like, that it's about a drive to a certain sort to engage in the world.
对某人还有更多了解的想法，也许暗示着他们在生活的舞台上不断演进。是的，他们还没有完全成形，我认为这是一个有趣的想法。在我们进行的关于心理健康的四集系列中，精神科医生保罗·康蒂表示，他所定义的生成驱动的匹配在关系中非常关键。他将生成驱动定义为渴望在自己的表达世界中创造某事。他说，更重要的是，不管一个人是否喜欢古典音乐，另一个人是否喜欢摇滚乐，只要他们对音乐的关系相似或类似，那就无关紧要。就像是对世界的某种驱动力。
So one person could love music, the other person's not into music, but the way that they approach life is one of perhaps mutual curiosity, desire to find out, et cetera, and that this exists on a continuum. I'm curious if it seems to jive with what your sense is. It does, but the only thing I would add is if you love classical music and they love heavy metal music, you're going to be driven crazy pretty quickly. It's not going to mesh with you. And I know I would have that problem. You'll both be in headphones a lot. Yeah. Right. So the fact that you both have, because music is like animals in a way. So I agree completely with what you're saying, but I would say maybe music isn't the best example because music says something very deep about a person. Right.
所以一个人可能喜欢音乐，而另一个人对音乐不感兴趣，但他们对待生活的方式可能是一种彼此的好奇心、渴望发现等等，并且这种情况存在于一个连续的范围内。我想知道这是否符合你的感觉。是的，但唯一要补充的是，如果你喜欢古典音乐而他们喜欢重金属音乐，你很快就会被搅疯。它和你不搭调。我知道我会遇到这个问题。你们俩都会经常戴着耳机。是的，对。因为音乐在某种程度上就像动物一样。所以我完全同意你的说法，但我想说也许音乐不是最好的例子，因为音乐能深入地反映一个人的内心。是的。
And I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but it reveals something that's nonverbal that kind of gives you a window into who they are. So if they like punk rock, like you do, and I grew up on punk rock, there's a rebellious thing. There's an anti-authoritarian quality that's very strong. You get to see that through them. If they like Mozart and soft string quartets, there's somebody that kind of values softness and tranquility and peace. And you're not like that. So the music kind of shows you something, the quality about their character that can be very telling and be very eloquent. And so it doesn't mean that you both have to love the clash or the dead Kennedys or whatever, showing my own generation. But that you both have that rebellious streak. And that rebellious streak could be, there's classical music composers who could be pretty damn rebellious and angry. And I actually kind of like them. So that convergence I think is a positive one, I think. But in general, I agree with that.
我并不是 saying某个好过另一个，但是音乐能透露一些非言语的东西，给你一个了解他们的窗口。所以如果他们像你一样喜欢朋克摇滚，而且我自己也是在朋克摇滚中长大的，那就有一种反叛的东西。有一种非权威主义的品质非常强烈。通过他们，你可以看到这一点。如果他们喜欢莫扎特和轻柔的弦乐四重奏，那说明他们更加注重柔和、宁静和和平。而你并不是那样的人。所以音乐可以向你展示一些关于他们性格的特质，这些特质可以非常具有启示性和表达力。所以并不是说你们两个都必须喜欢冲突或者是死肯尼迪乐队或其他展示我自己时代的音乐，而是你们两个都有那种反叛的倾向。这种反叛的倾向也可能是指一些古典音乐作曲家，他们可能相当反叛和愤怒。而我实际上还挺喜欢他们的。所以我认为这种融合是积极的。总的来说，我同意这个观点。
I'm curious about the nonverbal communication component of all types of relationships. But let's stay in the landscape of romantic relationships for the moment. Maybe include professional relationships too, because what you just described is really about a resonance around the nonverbal stuff. I mean, it can be articulated with words. I love animals, I love this music. This is the best song. Like, did you see that? Like, otters are amazing, right? This kind of thing. But language is just an attempt to place words on a feeling in those instances. So it can be classified as nonverbal.
我对各种关系中的非语言沟通成分很好奇。但让我们暂时停留在浪漫关系的范畴内。也许还可以包括职业关系，因为你刚才所描述的实际上是关于非语言方面的共鸣。我的意思是，尽管可以用言语表达出来，比如我喜欢动物，我喜欢这首音乐，这是最好的歌曲。就像，你看到那个了吗？就像水獭好厉害，对吧？这种事情。但语言只是试图在这些情况下将感受用词语表达出来。因此，它可以被归类为非语言沟通。
With respect to nonverbal communication, you've written fairly extensively about the fact that people often communicate with their body and facial expressions. I'm certainly familiar with the somewhat, if not very eerie sensation of somebody smiling, like a toothy smile. And then as they pivot away, that smile just dissolving very quickly. And you don't have to be a neuroscientist or a psychologist to realize that there was something quite false about that experience.
关于非语言交流，你写得相当详细，指出人们常常通过身体和面部表情进行交流。我相信你对于某人微笑时，十分奇怪的感觉一定很有了解。当他们转身离开时，那个微笑就很快消失了。就算你不是神经科学家或心理学家，也能意识到那种经历是有些虚假的。
Or that this person experiences emotions like step functions on, off, on, off, which is not how most of us experience emotions. Most of us experience emotions with some pervasiveness. Like, I was happy walking in the door because of something that happened before and someone smiled while I'm walking in the door. I see something shocking and dismaying. Of course, I'm in a frown. I'm going to wipe away that smile. But those are rare instances.
或者说，这个人的情绪经历起伏如阶跃函数一样，时而开心，时而悲伤，与我们大多数人的情绪体验有所不同。我们大多数人的情绪是普遍存在的。比如，我走进门时因为之前发生的一些事情感到开心，而且还有人对我微笑。然后我看到一些令人震惊和沮丧的事情。当然，我脸上就会皱起笑容。那些只是少数情况下的事情。
So let's talk about the mouth, the eyes, the face, the body, and the context of communication. What are some important things to attention? There was one thing that I wanted to go back on as far as convergence is sense of humor. It's extremely important, right? So it's not like you both like the same comedians, but if one person likes raunchy humor and the other person does it, that's a problem. And also the fact that the person doesn't have a sense of humor or doesn't make you laugh is a very, very bad sign. So I wanted to add that one component in there. I'm so glad you did. Someone who can make me laugh has, you know, necessary, but not sufficient. But boy, it's approaching sufficient. Yeah, I see.
所以让我们谈谈口齿、眼睛、面部、身体和交流背景。有哪些重要的注意事项呢？在收敛性方面，有一件事我想讲的是幽默感。这非常重要，对吧？所以不是说你们俩都喜欢同样的喜剧演员，但如果一方喜欢低俗幽默而另一方不喜欢，那就是个问题。而且，如果这个人没有幽默感或者不能让你笑，那是一个非常非常糟糕的迹象。所以我想加入这个要素。我很高兴你提到了这点。一个能让我笑的人是必要的，但不充分。但是，哇，它趋近于充分了。是啊，我明白。
So, you know, when it comes to the art of seduction, the art of seduction is a non-verbal language that you must master. It's a language of the gifts that you give. It's a language of how you smell. It's a language that you communicate through the eyes, etc., etc. And the thing you have to understand about the human being is that we evolved for a much longer period of time without words than the small 40, 35,000 years that we have symbolic language. So during that vast period of darkness where we did not have words, we were non-communicating non-verbally. We were picking up signals from people. We were watching every little detail of their behavior because we didn't have words to decipher it. So it's wired into our brains to have an amazing sensitivity to people's non-verbal communications. We can almost be telepathic that way if we learn that language. The problem is we have the capacity, but we don't develop it at all because we are so word-oriented. You're just listening to people, if you're even listening to them at all. You're just hearing the words and you're so thinking that the words mean something that the words are sincere, which they're often not.
所以，你知道，谈到诱惑的艺术时，诱惑的艺术是一门你必须掌握的非语言沟通方式。这是一种你所赋予的礼物的语言。这是一种你身上散发的气味的语言。这是一种你通过眼睛传达的语言，等等。而你必须理解的是，人类进化的时间，没有符号语言的这40，35,000年，要比没有单词的漫长时期要长得多。所以在那个我们没有单词的黑暗时期，我们是一种非语言沟通的存在。我们从别人那里接收信号。我们观察他们每一个微小的行为细节，因为我们没有单词去解读。所以，我们的大脑天生对于人们的非语言沟通具有惊人的敏感度。如果我们学会了这种语言，我们几乎可以有心灵感应的能力。问题是，我们具备这种能力，但我们却完全不加培养，因为我们太过于重视言语。你只是在听别人说话，如果你真的在听的话。你只是听到了单词，然后你就会认为这些话有意义，认为这些话是真诚的，但实际上它们往往并不是这样。
At the same time that you're listening so much to words, people are shuffling in their chair. They're kind of looking away. They're looking at other women or other men. Their voice is kind of trembling when they say something that shouldn't tremble. Their eyes are dead. The smile is kind of fake. You're not watching any of it. So the most important thing in non-verbal communication, law number one, is pay attention to it continually. Develop the practice of shutting off the words and watching people almost as if you took the television and muted it. And just watch their behavior. It's not easy and it's not natural because it's the words, the words we want to focus on them. But your ability to turn that television off to mute it will suddenly open up so many things about people. They reveal so much things. Sigma and Freud said people are continually oozing out all of their secrets through their non-verbal behavior. You can read them like an open book if you master this language.
在你过多关注言辞的同时，人们正在椅子上蠕动不安。他们目光游移，看向其他女性或男性。他们说话时声音会有些颤抖，与该说的内容不符。他们的眼神毫无生气，微笑也有些虚假。而你却没有留意到这一切。因此，在非语言交流中，第一条法则就是要持续关注这些细节。养成将言辞抛诸脑后，完全关注人们行为的习惯，就像你将电视静音一样。仅仅观察他们的行为。这并不容易，也不自然，因为我们总是希望集中注意力在言辞上。然而，如果你能够关闭这个电视，将其静音，你将会窥探到人们无数的内心世界。西格玛和弗洛伊德曾说过，人们通过非语言行为不断流露自己所有的秘密。如果你掌握了这种语言，就能如同阅读一本敞开的书一样读懂他们。
And I have the laws of human nature. I describe the story of Milton Erikson. I don't know if you're familiar with Milton Erikson. Perhaps the greatest modern master of non-verbal communication. He was an amazing psychologist. He's sort of the inspiration behind what's called, and helped me out here. Neuro-linguistic. NLP. NLP. It's kind of a bastardization of his ideas. But he created hypnotherapy. He's the person who created hypnotherapy. Certainly hypnotherapy is a valid psychiatric practice. I mean it's excellent clinical data to support it. Well, Milton Erikson had polio when he was 19. And he was paralyzed his entire body was paralyzed. He couldn't even move his eyeballs, right? And he sat in bed and he had a very active mind. And he was going to just die from sheer boredom. And what he did during the two years of being paralyzed like that was just watching people's non-verbal communication and making notes in his brain and learning every single. he learned the 20 different forms of yes, the 100 different forms of no, right? Every intonation, how somebody entered the room, how they left the room, you know how they looked at him with the pity or empathy. And he mastered it. And then when he became a psychiatrist and he treated people, they thought he was psychic. He could see everything into them. It's because for two years that's all he could do was observe them. He couldn't speak. He couldn't do anything. He couldn't read a book.
我掌握了人类的法则。我描述了弥尔顿·埃里克森的故事。不知道你是否熟悉弥尔顿·埃里克森。他可能是非言语沟通中最伟大的现代大师。他是一位了不起的心理学家。他可以说是所谓的神经语言编程（NLP）的灵感来源，也在这方面帮助了我。NLP可以说是对他思想的一种曲解。但他创立了催眠治疗。他是催眠治疗的创始人。催眠治疗确实是一种有效的精神病学实践。我指的是有大量的临床数据支持它。好的，弥尔顿·埃里克森19岁患上小儿麻痹症。他全身瘫痪，甚至连眼球都无法动弹，对吧？他躺在床上，思维很活跃。他将死于无聊。在这两年的瘫痪期间，他只能观察人们的非言语沟通，并在大脑中做记录，学习每一种。他学会了20种不同的肯定形式，100种不同的否定形式，对吧？对方说话的语调，他们进入和离开房间的方式，以及当他们以怜悯或同情的目光看着他时，他都能看穿。他功力渐成。当他成为一名精神科医生并治疗别人时，他们认为他是个神通广大的人。他可以看透他们的一切。这是因为在两年时间里他只能观察他人，他无法说话，无法做任何事情，甚至无法读书。
So you have that same power, but you don't have polio, obviously. But you have to first pay attention to it, right? It's an amazing thing once you do. It's a lot of fun, actually.
所以你有同样的力量，但显然你没有小儿麻痹症。但是你必须首先关注它，对吧？一旦你注意到它，这是一件令人惊奇的事情。实际上，这非常有趣。
And I tell people, go to a cafe one day in your city wherever you live and just watch people because you can't hear them, they're a few tables away. Watch their non-verbal behavior as they interact and see if you pick up cues from them. And there are things that are signs of genuine emotions.
我告诉别人，无论你住在哪个城市，都去一个咖啡厅坐一天，只是观察人们。虽然你听不到他们说话，因为他们离你有几个桌子远，但你可以看到他们的非语言行为，观察他们的互动，看看你能否从中捕捉到一些信号。而这些信号可能会显示出真挚的情感。
So for instance, an exercise you can do is you go up to somebody from an angle where they can't see you coming up to them and you surprise them. You go, hey, hey, Mike, whatever. They turn for that second. Their expression reveals how they really think about you. You'll detect if you can pick up micro-expressions and you can. They're only like one-one-fifty of a second, but they're there. You can express a smile. You can see the little disdain in their eyes, right?
例如，你可以做的一种练习是从一个他们看不到你靠近的角度接近某人并给他们一个惊喜。你走上去，嘿，嘿，迈克，或者其他什么。他们会在那一瞬间转身。他们的表情会揭示出他们对你的真实想法。如果你能捕捉到微表情，你会发现的。它们只持续约1/150秒，但确实存在。你可以看到微笑，也可以看到他们眼中的一丝轻蔑，对吧？
Then the mask comes on, right? Or you're talking to them, they're looking at you, but their feet are facing in an opposite direction. That means that they're dying to get away from you, kind of thing. These are signals that you don't necessarily pay attention to. Their posture will tell you everything about their levels of confidence, right?
然后戴上面具了，对吗？或者你正在和他们交谈，他们正在看着你，但是他们的脚却朝着相反的方向。这意味着他们渴望远离你，就像那样。这些是你不一定会注意到的信号。他们的姿势会告诉你关于他们的自信程度的一切，对吗？
On and on and on. The fake smile. If you can just master the ability to detect the fake smile, it will go wonders for you because you're able to see what you really want to do is to see the person with the genuine smile, particularly in romantic relationships. Someone whose face lights up, a real smile, lights your whole face up. It doesn't light your mouth. These parts of your face go up, your eyes get alive. There's like a neuro thing going on in your brain that's changing your whole facial expression. And it means that someone genuinely likes you. They're genuinely interested in you. They're genuinely laughing or connecting to you.
不停地暗示着一个假笑。如果你能够掌握辨别假笑的能力，它对你会有巨大的帮助，因为你能够看到真正想要看到的是一个带着真实微笑的人，尤其是在浪漫的关系中。那种脸上绽放的真正微笑会照亮你整张脸，它并不仅仅照亮你的嘴巴，你脸上的其他部位也会上扬，你的眼睛变得活泼起来。这是因为你的大脑中有一个神经反应，已经改变了你整个面部表情。这意味着有人真心喜欢你，他们真正对你感兴趣，他们真心笑着或者与你建立了联系。
Man, if you can see that, it'll help you so much in the romantic realm and it'll help you get away from those toxic people that are continually faking interest in you because a narcissist, a toxic person thrives by deceiving you with a charming alluring front that makes you come into their world. Then they can hurt you. Then they can do something to you, right? Then they have you in their trap, right? So being able to see that they're not genuinely interested in you, that they're faking it will help you avoid very toxic relationships.
兄弟，如果你能认清这一点，对你在浪漫关系中将大有帮助，还能帮助你远离那些不停假装对你有兴趣的有毒人，因为自恋者、有毒的人通过以迷人吸引人的外表欺骗你，让你进入他们的世界。然后他们可以伤害你。他们可以对你做些什么，对吗？然后他们就算抓住了你，对吗？所以，能够看清他们对你并不真正感兴趣而只是假装的，将帮助你避免非常有毒的关系。
And as I said to you, I don't know if we were on air or not, but deep narcissists have dead eyes. They almost can't help it. They can fake the smile. They can fake everything else. But the eyes, you have to be able to read it because you say, well, what are dead eyes? You'll know it when you see it. There's no life in them. They're like looking through you. They're not looking at you. They're looking through you. What can I get? If you're what they call a self object, they're an object for you to use. And that's how they're looking at you. Like they would look at a hammer or something.
正如我对你说的那样，我不知道我们是不是在直播中，但是深陷自恋症的人眼睛是死气沉沉的。他们几乎无法控制。他们可以假装微笑。他们可以假装其他一切。但是眼睛，你必须能够读懂，因为你会说，什么叫做死气沉沉的眼睛？当你看到时你会知道的。他们眼中没有生机。他们看透了你。他们不是在看着你，而是透过你。他们在想：“我能从你身上获得什么？”如果你是他们所谓的“自我对象”，他们会将你看作是供他们使用的对象。就像他们看待一个锤子或其他东西一样。
The concept of dead eyes and also alive eyes is so fascinating because as audience of this podcast will know that, because I've said it too much, but I'll say it again, that the eyes are the only two pieces of your brain that are outside the cranial vault. I mean, they're literally two pieces of brain lining the back of your eyes. And the dynamics of the pupils, those changes, of course, reflect how bright or dim it is in the room. But they also reflect levels of arousal that are on the millisecond timescale.
死亡之眼和生命之眼的概念非常迷人，因为作为这个播客的听众将会知道，因为我说过很多次了，但我还是要再说一遍，眼睛是你的大脑中仅有的两个在颅内外的部分。我是说，它们实际上是大脑的两片组织，覆盖在你眼睛的后方。瞳孔的动态变化当然反映了房间中的明亮或昏暗程度。但它们也反映了以毫秒为单位的唤醒水平的变化。
So as one expresses words of of glee, the pupils constrict a little bit. Believe it or not. Excuse me. Dilate a little bit. I got it backwards there for a moment. And vice versa. As one feels less, less excited moments of despair, expressions of despair, the pupils should get a little bit smaller because arousal is going down. And so I think we pick up on these things at an unconscious level. The deadness of the eyes is kind of the conclusion that pops out at us if we're paying attention.
当人们表达兴奋的时候，瞳孔会稍微收缩，你信不信。抱歉，刚才我反了过来。反之亦然，当人们感到越来越少的沮丧时，瞳孔应该会略微缩小，因为情绪正在消退。所以我认为我们在无意识的层面上察觉到了这些变化。如果我们注意到了，眼神的死寂就是我们得出的结论。
But the problem is, it registers unconsciously, but we don't give it any value to it. We trust our words. We trust our rationality as opposed to our intuitions about people. Sometimes when you meet a person for the first time, signals go up in your brain. Something's wrong about them. And then you forget it because you don't trust those initial unconscious signals that your brain is giving you. So you have to first trust that these intuitions are very valuable.
问题是，我们对这些无意识的信号并不重视。我们相信自己的话语。我们相信自己理性的判断，而对于对人的直觉并不信任。有时当你第一次遇到一个人时，你的大脑中就会产生一些信号。关于他们有些不对劲。然后你忘记了这些信号，因为你不相信大脑最初给出的那些无意识信号。因此，你首先必须相信这些直觉是非常有价值的。
The other thing is pay deep attention to the tone of voice. The voice, as actors will tell you, is like the hardest thing to fake. Right? It's very hard to fake excitement. Your voice either has it or it doesn't. It's very hard to fake confidence. And you can, I mean, books have been written about that. I'm not going to go into all the details about it. But the person will reveal so much of their emotional, the emotions that they're experiencing, particularly levels of confidence. You know, like a trembling voice or something or a booming, confident voice, which some people can fake, but often it's very difficult. You can still see through it. And on the level of seduction, women, men are very, very attuned to the voice of a woman, but we're not aware of it. Because the voice of our mother had an incredible impact on us in early, early, early childhood. Her singing, the tone of her voice. That was probably the first seduction that we ever went through.
And a woman's voice has tremendous power over us. Right? And so hearing a voice that kind of grades or irritates you is something that's a bad sign. That goes deeper than all the characters that we were talking about. But a woman's voice that kind of reminds you of that mother that sings song you've whatever feeling it was, that's somebody that can very easily seduce you. There's a place for naming this of it's like sub-cortical courtship. You know, below the cortex, as the geeky neuroscientists like myself say, you know, you're getting down below the cortex with all of this stuff. You know, convergence of real loves and desires. I mean, we express with words. We sense the world using, of course, our cortex. But really talking about getting into the sub-cortical stuff that is the stuff of our history, the stuff of our hardwiring and our uniqueness.
I couldn't help but think about the fact that earlier we were talking about the now infinitely vast number of choices of things to engage in, people to engage with, etc. But at the same time, as you were now talking about these micro-inflections and the subtleties of voice and bodily communication, that whether or not it's emojis or people sending filtered images or the default to text message communication that is so prominent now, it seems like we now have more choices, so more input. But the sort of qualitative differences between the inputs have been binged into a couple of simple bins. It's as if we've regressed to primary colors only. But the canvas is huge. I don't know if that analogy works. But you get the idea. Because ultimately, in order to develop good choices about profession, romantic relationships, friendships, you need a lot of examples and a lot of information that allows you to glean the subtlety.
But as long as it's emojis and filtered pictures taken at a particular angle, usually from above, ask for the picture head on and below. Send me a picture of your worst expression, all of that. It seems that there's now increased opportunity for deception. And I don't just mean people misleading others. I also mean us misleading ourselves. Oh my goodness, how could I be so disappointed yet again about a particular landscape of life? It doesn't just have to be romantic interactions. It could be other landscapes. Like how could I be fooled? Well, you're fooled because the inputs were deficient. Not good data, as we say.
Well, the thing is, if things are immersed in the virtual realm, it's very, very hard to master the nonverbal communication aspect, which is so important. So if you're dating from an app and you're flipping through and then you find that person, you've missed out on the greatest experience of life, which is actually having to go out to a bar or go to a restaurant or go to a social event and have to literally encounter another person and deal with looking at their behavior and kind of assessing who they are. It's a muscle that you have to pay attention to nonverbal communication. And if you're just going through the emojis or going through the Tinder apps, that muscle completely atrophies. You have no power. You're not able to decipher anything. And that's what's happening with a lot of people who are using these apps. Social skills are like any skill at all. You have to develop them. It's a muscle you have to develop.
另一件事是要对声音的语调给予深入的关注。演员会告诉你，声音是最难假装的。对吧？很难假装兴奋。你的声音要么有兴奋感，要么没有。很难假装自信。你知道，关于这个有很多书写。我不会详细说明所有细节。但人们会透露出他们正在经历的情绪，特别是自信的水平。你知道，像发抖的声音或者自信的声音，有些人可以假装，但通常很难。你还是可以看穿的。在诱惑的层面上，女性，男性非常敏感于女性的声音，但我们并不意识到。因为我们母亲的声音在我们早早的童年时期对我们产生了强烈的影响。她唱歌的声音，她说话的语调。那可能是我们经历的第一种诱惑。
而女性的声音对我们有巨大的影响力。对吧？所以，听到那种刺耳或者令人烦躁的声音是一个不好的迹象。这比我们刚才谈到的所有角色都更深入。但是，一种让你想起唱歌的母亲的声音，不管它引发了什么样的感觉，那就是一个很容易让你受到引诱的人。这就像是一个亚皮垂降的过程。你知道，进入皮层以下，就像我们这些书呆子般的神经科学家所说的，你知道，你深入到了所有这些东西之下。你知道，真正的爱与欲望的融合。我是说，我们用语言表达。当然，我们是用我们的皮层去感受世界的。但真正谈论的是深层的东西，那是我们的历史，我们的硬编码和独特性的东西。
之前我们在谈到现在可以参与的事情和人物的无限选择的同时，当你现在又在谈论这些微小的变化和身体交流的细微之处时，无论是表情符号还是人们发送经过滤镜处理的图像，或者是流行的文本消息沟通方式，似乎我们现在有更多的选择，更多的输入。但输入之间的质量差异似乎已经变成了一些简单的分类。就好像我们回归到了原始的基本颜色一样。但画布是巨大的。我不知道这个比喻是否合适，但你明白我的意思。因为最终，为了在职业、感情关系、友谊方面作出好的选择，你需要很多例子和很多信息，让你能够领悟到其中的细微之处。
但只要是表情符号和经过滤镜处理的照片，通常从上面拍摄，向对方索要头像并从下面拍摄。给我发一张你最难看的表情的照片，这样那就增加了欺骗的机会。我指的不仅是人们误导别人，也包括我们自己误导自己。哦天啊，为什么我对某个生活中的景象再次感到如此失望呢？这不仅仅是指浪漫的互动。它可以是其他方面的景象。就好像我怎么会被愚弄呢？嗯，因为输入是不充分的。不好的数据，就像我们所说的。
事实上，如果事情沉浸在虚拟领域，很难掌握非语言交流这个非常重要的方面。所以如果你是通过一个应用程序约会，然后你找到那个人，你就错过了人生最伟大的经历，那就是真正去酒吧，去餐厅或者去社交场合，必须真正地与另一个人面对面，观察他们的行为，评估他们是谁。这是一种你必须关注非语言交流的能力。如果你只是通过表情符号或者Tinder应用程序浏览，这种能力完全会退化。你没有力量。你无法解读任何东西。这就是很多人使用这些应用程序时出现的问题。社交技巧就像任何其他技能一样，你必须发展它们。这是一种你必须发展的能力。
And you've all noticed this probably in your own life. If you've gone through a period where you're kind of retreating, you don't want to be around people and you spend a month like that. And then you go out. You feel awkward. It takes you a couple of days to get used to being around other people. You say stupid things. Your body language is awkward. But if you're in a situation for months where you're constantly interacting with people, you're on a film set and day in day out, that skill starts developing. But you have to be out there in the world. You have to be interacting. You have to be looking at people's emotions. You have to be gauging them in real time. We're not built for virtual encounters. We're creatures of human, of flesh and blood. And we need to be looking at each other in the eye and paying attention to all these little details, these nuances that you can only get in person.
你们可能在自己的生活中都注意到了这一点。如果你经历过一段时间的退缩，不想与人为伴，然后你度过了一个月这样的日子。然后你重新出门。你会感到尴尬。需要几天时间才能习惯与他人相处。你会说蠢话。你的身体语言笨拙。但如果你在几个月的时间里一直与人交往，比如在电影拍摄现场每天都要与人打交道，这种技能就开始发展起来。但你必须走出去，与世界互动。你必须观察别人的情绪。你必须实时评估它们。我们不是为了虚拟相遇而生的。我们是有血有肉的人类生物。我们需要彼此对视，专注观察所有这些细微差别，只有亲身接触才能感受到。
Along those lines, what are your thoughts about AI and how that's going to shape our sense of self, sense of others and relationships? As if that's a topic that could be covered in a series of minutes. But what are your top contour, maybe even deeper thoughts about AI? Well, I'm going to piss a lot of people off, but I'm kind of very concerned about it. I mentioned before about anxiety, the role that anxiety plays in thinking. You come upon an idea and you go, yeah, that's so good. Then you go to the next level and it becomes better. And you go, oh, maybe that's not so good. Then you go to the next level. You go to level three and it gets better and better. You have anxiety.
在这方面，你对人工智能有什么看法，它将如何塑造我们的自我意识、他人意识和人际关系？好像这是一个可以在几分钟内讨论的话题。但你对人工智能有哪些深入的思考呢？嗯，我会得罪很多人，但我对此感到非常担心。我之前提到了焦虑，焦虑在思维中起到了什么作用。你想到一个创意，你觉得它很好。然后你进一步思考，它变得更好了。然后你又觉得可能不好。然后你进一步思考，到了第三个层次，变得越来越好。这时你会产生焦虑。
Another aspect of intelligence is self-awareness. The way to look at yourself go, I have biases. I have confirmation bias. I have conviction bias. I have recency bias. I have to counteract these things. I also have a dark side. I have aggression. I have to be aware of how they color my thinking, my emotions. The third quality that goes into, I'm talking about now intelligence. Not artificial intelligence, to be able to deal anxiety and go to a third level. Intelligence is the ability to look at the side of yourself and see your own biases. And the third thing is the ability to see a holistic picture. The kind of aha moment that scientists have, where you accumulate all kind of data points. And then out of nowhere an image comes to your mind. There's the answer. You see the whole thing. You see the whole gestalt. Simone Vile compared it to a square cube. You can only see a cube from one side. You can never see a square cube. You can only see a side of it. If it's rotating, you're still only seeing sides of it. Only in your mind can you picture the whole thing. So the mind has to go through a process to have holistic thinking.
智力的另一方面是自我意识。看待自己的方式是，我有偏见。我有确认偏见。我有坚信偏见。我有最近偏见。我必须对抗这些偏见。我也有阴暗的一面。我有侵略性。我必须意识到它们如何影响我的思维和情绪。第三个品质是，我现在所谈论的是智力，不是人工智能，它能够处理焦虑并达到第三个层次。智力就是能够观察自己的偏见的能力。第三件事是能够看到整体图片。科学家们经常会有顿悟的时刻，在积累了各种数据点之后，突然心中出现一个形象。那就是答案。你看到了整个事物。你看到了整个构架。西蒙娜·维尔将其比作一个正方体。你只能从一边看到一个正方体，你永远不能看到一个方方正正的立方体。你只能看到它的一面。即使它在旋转，你仍然只能看到它的一面。只有在你的脑海中，你才能想象出整个事物。所以头脑必须经历一个过程才能形成整体性思维。
If they can invent a machine that can deal with anxiety and has anxiety and can go to level 3. If they can make a machine that can be self-aware, they can go. The people who program me have biases. Therefore I have biases. I also have a dark side because people have programming, who have a dark side. If this machine can also think holistically beyond all of the data points and all the massive information it's combining, it can have that aha moment, all right. I can see human consciousness. I can see creativity there.
如果他们能发明一台能处理焦虑并具有焦虑情感并能达到3级的机器，他们就能成功。如果他们能制造一台有自我意识的机器，那么它们就可以进一步发展。编程我的人有偏见，因此我也有偏见。人们有黑暗面，所以我也有黑暗面。如果这台机器能够超越所有的数据点和融合的海量信息进行整体思考，它就能有那个"啊哈"的时刻。我能看到人类意识，我能看到创造力的存在。
The other thing I would say is when I was a student at Berkeley going way back, I was 19 years old, I decided once summer, this is a big paradigm shift for me, I'm going to take this class in ancient Greek. In six weeks they teach you a year of ancient Greek. That means every day you have an exam, every Friday you have a final exam. Eight hours every day of a dead language. I thought this would be the best discipline for me after someone who didn't have been doing too many drugs, to be honest with you. And so finally at one point they give us this paragraph of the hardest ancient Greek writer of all to read. This was near the end, Thucydides or Thucydides as they say. So I had the whole night to try and translate one paragraph. I couldn't figure it out. You have to understand the weirdness of ancient Greek, all the endings, the weird ways of thinking. The whole picture that aha moment was eluding me. At one point I thought I got it and I translated it and I gave it to the teacher next day. I remember, he was this kind of hippie that you'd have at Berkeley Dennis, classics professor, but also a hippie. The fact that you knew his first name is very tall as well. I can only remember his first name, Dennis. He said, Robert, I can see your thinking, but you need to go to another level. You missed, you didn't have that aha moment, you didn't put the whole thing together. You were close, but you didn't, you have to try harder. And that stuck in my mind forever. Like whenever I have a problem, I have to think harder, I have to go to that next level.
我还要说的另一件事是，当我还是在伯克利大学的学生时，那时我19岁，我决定有一年的暑假时，进行一次重大的转变，我要去上一门古希腊语的课程。在六个星期里，他们教你一整年的古希腊语。这意味着每天你都要有考试，每个星期五还有期末考试。每天要学习八小时的一门已经失传的语言。我认为对于一个之前曾经过度嗑药的人来说，这将是最好的自我约束方法，老实说。有一次他们给了我们这篇最难读的古希腊作家的段落。这是接近结束时，题材是修昔底德，或者你们说的奏昔底德。所以我整整一晚上都试图翻译这段话。但是我无法弄明白。你必须理解古希腊语的怪异之处，所有的词尾和奇怪的思维方式。那个灵光乍现的时刻一直在躲避我。有一段时间，我觉得我搞懂了并翻译出来，然后第二天交给了老师。我还记得，他是个我在伯克利大学才会遇到的嬉皮士，丹尼斯，一个古典学教授，但同时也是个嬉皮士。你知道他的名字真的挺特别的。我只能记得他的名字，丹尼斯。他说：“罗伯特，我能看出你的想法，但你需要到达另一个层次。你错过了那个灵光一现的时刻，没能把整个事情都联系起来。你离成功很近了，但你没有，你必须更加努力。”这句话永远记在我心里。每当我遇到问题时，我必须更加努力思考，达到下一个层次。
Now what would happen if I had pulled out my translation of Thucydides and just copied that out? What have happened if I put it through chat GPT and it gave me the translation? That muscle in my brain that I have developed for 40 years that allows me to write books would never have developed. And that muscle is, I don't know the answer here, I have to go to another level, I have to try hard drive, I have to think, I have to think, I have to have that engine whirring around.
如果我拿出我的修昔底德翻译并简单复制，会发生什么呢？如果我把它输入聊天GPT并得到翻译结果呢？我40年来培养出来的那块大脑肌肉，让我能写书的能力永远不会发展起来。而那块肌肉是，我不知道这里的答案，我必须进入另一个层次，我必须思考，我必须思考，我必须让大脑高速运转。
But if I just grab for chat GPT, it's deadened. And then we can have a whole generation of people who stop thinking, who don't go through that process. You know, you've heard of Douglas Hofstedter, I think. He said, people train to go to Mount Everest, it takes months, physical exertion, it's painful, then they climb Mount Everest, they see the top. Whoa, what a great moment. He said, chat GPT would be the equivalent of taking a helicopter to the top of Mount Everest without any of that training and having the same moment. It's not the same, right? You need to go through that process, you need to go through that pain.
但是，如果我只是想要聊天GPT，那就没有了意义。然后我们可能会出现一整代的人停止思考，不经历那个过程。你听过道格拉斯·霍夫斯泰德吧，我想。他说，人们训练去登珠穆朗玛峰，需要几个月的时间，需要身体努力，这是痛苦的，然后他们爬上了珠穆朗玛峰，看到了顶峰。哇，多么伟大的时刻。他说，聊天GPT就相当于直接乘直升机到达珠穆朗玛峰的顶峰，没有经过任何训练，却拥有同样的体验。这是不一样的，对吧？你需要经历那个过程，你需要经历那份痛苦。
And the thing of his chat GPT, we think we're so modern and so sophisticated, but really we're just seduced by magic. You put it in there and you see the screw, whoa, it's like magic, it's like a magician. But it's empty, it's like not your brain functioning, right? It's the pagan part of us. We like that kind of magic as opposed to actually having to go through the thought process itself.
关于他的聊天GPT，我们认为自己非常现代化、高级，但实际上我们只是被魔法所迷惑。你把东西放进去，你就能看到螺丝钉，哇，就像魔术一样，就像一个魔术师。但那只是空洞，不是你的脑袋在工作，对吧？这是我们中的异教部分。与必须经历思考过程相比，我们更喜欢这种魔术性质。
So I'm not in fit against having tools. I use tools, I use the internet, I use Google, I'm searching for like some factoid for my book. I find it, I use it, I like it. But I've also learned to develop my brain to think to get that engine constantly moving. And I'm deeply concerned about people who can't learn a foreign language, who can't master anything, who just immediately grab the first answer that it generates, etc, etc. I have concerns.
所以，我并不反对使用工具。我使用工具，使用互联网，使用谷歌，我在为我的书寻找一些事实。我找到它，使用它，我喜欢它。但我也学会了培养我的大脑思考，让那个引擎不断运转。我对那些无法学习一门外语，无法精通任何事物，只会立即接受第一个答案的人深感担忧。我有顾虑。
I am too. And I was thinking a moment ago that, you know, like some people might hear what you just said and say, oh, well, the same thing was probably said about the automobile. Like how many amazing experiences of walking from one place to another are going to be lost when people start driving from one place to another. But I think a key difference, and this certainly aligns with everything you just said, is that what you're talking about is not just arriving at the same destination. You're saying the destination itself is different when one exerts some effort and experiences some anxiety to get there. And you're not the same as automobile versus horse versus walking versus airplane. It's fundamentally different because the journey transforms the outcome.
我也是这么想的。我刚刚在想，你知道，有些人可能会听到你刚刚说的话，然后说，噢，对啊，关于汽车也可能有人说过同样的话。就像当人们从一个地方开车去另一个地方时，会失去多少步行所带来的惊人体验。但我认为一个关键的区别，这与你刚刚说的一切完全一致，就是你所说的不仅是到达相同的目的地。你说的是，目的地本身在一个人付出努力和经历一些焦虑来到达时是不同的。而且这不同于汽车与马匹与步行与飞机之间的区别。因为旅程可以改变结果。
Yeah. Yeah. I've been agreement with you about many aspects of AI. I'm also excited about it in the context of certain things. I agree with you. It could be a tool. But are we operating the tool or is the tool operating us is what I'm talking about? And I'm really concerned a bit too, especially in the context of what we've been talking about for most of today's discussion about avatars replacing our online personas too much. You know, the avatarization of ourselves is already taking place through filters, through reduction of emotional expression to emojis, through reduction of language to a diminished number of words to explain one's feelings.
是的。是的。在许多人工智能的方面，我与你达成了一致。在某些情况下，我也对它感到兴奋。我同意你的看法，它可以是一个工具。但我说的是我们在操作这个工具，还是这个工具在操纵我们呢？我有点担心，特别是在我们今天大部分讨论时间里一直在谈论的将头像取代我们在线形象的情况下。你知道，通过滤镜，情感表达被简化为表情符号，语言表达被限制在少量词汇来解释自己的感受，我们的头像化已经开始了。
So, a prior guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's an expert in emotions, talked about how the moment that a culture has a word for a particular subset of anxious feelings. So, for instance, she taught me that in Japanese, there's a word for the sadness one experiences when they get a bad haircut. Yeah, I know. You know, and so that normalizes the feeling and leads to feelings of less despair, as opposed to what now many kids especially grew up learning, which I'm anxious. I'm sad. I'm depressed.
因此，在这个播客中之前的嘉宾，情绪专家丽莎·菲尔德曼·巴雷特谈到了当一种文化为特定的焦虑情绪子集拥有一个词时的那一刻。比如，她告诉我，在日本，有一个词用来形容当某人剪了个糟糕的发型后经历的悲伤感。是的，我知道。你知道的。所以这样的词汇使这种情绪变得正常，并减少了绝望感，而不像许多孩子尤其是长大时学到的那样：我焦虑、我难过、我沮丧。
You know, in science, we say there are lumpers and there are splitters. And they've been arguing for years about like, is that one brain structure? Well, if I name those two things next to each other, two different things, not only can I name one after myself, which is what tends to happen, so to speak.
你知道，在科学上，我们说有些人是把事物归类的人，有些人则是把事物分散开来的人。而关于这个问题，他们争论了多年，比如说，这是同一个脑结构吗？如果我将这两个东西相邻地命名为两个不同的事物，不仅可以将其中一个以我的名字命名，这种情况多少有些自我表扬的味道。
But when you have too many lumpers or too many splitters, things are either overly simple or overly complex, that of course the right answer, the best use of naming things arrives someplace in the middle. That's how a field progresses, because if you lump things together too much, a field can't progress. You give yourself the illusion that it's progressing, but it's not progressing. But if you split things up into a million different subcategories, like just even the word adrenaline is also called epinephrine. And that's, it has to do with basically people arguing over who got credit. Crazy. And it's confused people for decades. Yeah.
但是当你有太多归类者或者太多分割者时，事物要么过于简单要么过于复杂，当然正确的答案，对事物命名的最佳用法会出现在中间的某个地方。这就是一个领域的进展方式，因为如果你把事物归类得太多，那么这个领域就无法进展。你给自己一种进展的错觉，但实际上并没有进展。但是如果你把事物分成数百万个不同的子类，比如肾上腺素也叫做表皮素。这主要是关于人们争夺功劳的争论。这在几十年中让人们感到困惑。是的。
And there's another story there that, and I know far too much about the scientists involved. And there was a love triangle about naming of certain parts of the nervous system that, oh yeah, people sleeping with other people's partners and love triangles have created more drama of nomenclature in science. I could do a whole hour on this.
在那里还有另一个故事，而且我对其中涉及的科学家了解得太多了。还有一段关于命名某些神经系统的爱情三角关系，啊是的，人们和别人的伴侣发生了关系以及爱情三角关系在科学命名方面增添了更多戏剧性。我可以花一个小时讲述这个故事。
In any case, what I'm hearing from you is that we cannot afford to lose our sense of nuance. And also because that sense of nuance taps into what we're really experiencing. And AI threatens that, that we can become avatars of ourself.
无论如何，从你那里我所听到的是，我们无法承受失去细微差别的感觉。这种细微差别感觉能够触及我们真实的经历。而人工智能威胁到了这种感觉，我们可能会变成我们自身的化身。
Well, look at it this way. We worship technology, it's our new religion, okay? And we worship CHAP-GPT as if it's a God. Seriously, there's a religious element going on here. What we really should worship is the human brain, which is the greatest creation in the known universe, I'm afraid. It is the most complex piece of matter in the entire universe. The number of neurons, the number of synapses, the number of possible connections between neurons is infinite, practically infinite. It is a wondrous instrument. It is so powerful. We've, we've rarely scratched the surface of what we can use for it.
嗯，这样想一下吧。我们崇拜科技，它已成为我们的新宗教，好吗？而我们崇拜CHAP-GPT就像崇拜一个上帝。说真的，在这里有宗教的元素存在。我们真正应该崇拜的是人类的大脑，这可是已知宇宙中最伟大的创造。它是整个宇宙中最复杂的物质。神经元的数量、突触的数量、神经元之间可能的连接数量都是无限的，几乎是无限的。它是一种奇妙的工具。它是如此强大。我们对它的利用，我们只是触及到了冰山一角。
Let us worship that brain that's in your head. You only have so many years to use it. You only have so many years to develop it. It is so wonderful and powerful that can bring you such pleasure, so much power in life. So tools are fine. We all need tools. We all need hammers. We need nails. We need saws, et cetera. But the real thing is the hand that uses it, the brain that connects the hand to the hammer, that knows how to hit things, you know?
让我们一起敬仰你脑袋里的那颗大脑吧。你只有有限的年华可以利用它。你只有有限的时间来发展它。它是如此美妙和强大，能给你带来如此多的快乐和生活中的力量。所以工具很好，我们都需要工具。我们需要锤子，需要钉子，需要锯子等等。但真正重要的是使用它的手和将手与锤子连接的大脑，那个知道如何敲打事物的大脑，你明白吗？
I think of the, of the, the great painter Renoir in the 19th century. He had like a stroke or something. Then the last years he couldn't move his right arm, which she painted with. It was disastrous. So what he did is he put the brush in his mouth and he painted it and he painted some beautiful paintings that way because his brain had mastered the art of painting, not his hand, but his brain had mastered so much. And he painted it so well that he could actually paint well with the brush in his mouth because he could direct it and he had the knowledge of how to make something perfect.
我在想起19世纪的伟大画家雷诺阿.他曾经得了中风或者其他什么疾病。然后在最后几年他的右臂无法动弹，而这只是他绘画所用的手。这一切都是灾难性的。所以他就把画笔放在嘴里，这样他就开始用嘴绘画，他这么画了一些美丽的作品，因为他的大脑已经掌握了绘画艺术，不是他的手，而是他的大脑掌握了这么多技巧。他画得如此出色以至于他能够用嘴继续精准地绘画，因为他能够控制画笔，并且知道如何创作完美的艺术品。
The brain is absolutely incredible. The plasticity of the brain, which I'm discovering after my stroke is absolutely a miracle. You know what I don't know is it Professor Schwartz that UCLA who was studying OCD and how he was able to kind of cure people of OCD through certain plasticity exercises that he had. Making them aware of their kind of brain lock, etc. and getting them out of it. The, that plasticity of the brain is far the greatest miracle of all. And it goes on until your 60s and 70s and onward.
大脑真是令人惊叹。我在中风后发现，大脑的可塑性确实是一种奇迹。您知道吗，我不知道是不是加州大学洛杉矶分校的施瓦茨教授正在研究强迫症，他通过一些可塑性锻炼成功治愈了一些患有强迫症的人。让他们意识到他们的大脑处于一种锁定状态，并帮助他们摆脱这种状态。大脑的这种可塑性是所有奇迹中最伟大的。而且它在您60多岁甚至70多岁时都会继续改变。
Let's all get down on our hands and knees and worship the brain. And if we did, it would create a complete shift in our values. And we wouldn't be so instantly seduced and enamored and worshiping the technology. We would worship the brains that create the technology instead of the other way around.
让我们都跪在地上，崇拜大脑吧。如果我们这样做，将会完全改变我们的价值观。我们就不会那么容易地被科技所迷惑、迷恋和崇拜。我们会反过来崇拜创造科技的大脑。
I certainly got a fan of brains and their potential for plasticity sitting over here. I have the benefit of having my scientific great grandparents, our Hugh Wombezel who won the Nobel Prize for neuroplasticity during the critical period. So my scientific great grandparents are David Hubel and Torrance and Riesel. David's dead Torrance and still alive. He's 96. And they won the Nobel Prize for essentially discovering the critical window early in development where plasticity is especially robust. They did other things too. They should have won two no bells frankly for their other work on vision.
我绝对是一个对大脑及其可塑性产生迷恋的粉丝，坐在这里。我有幸拥有我科学上的伟大祖父母，我们的休·沃姆贝尔，他在关键时期因神经可塑性获得了诺贝尔奖。所以，我的科学上的伟大祖父母是大卫·休贝尔和托伦斯和里塞尔。大卫已故，托伦斯现在仍然活着，他已经96岁了。他们获得诺贝尔奖主要是因为在早期发育阶段发现了窗口期的关键，这个时期大脑的塑性特别强大。当然，他们还做了其他的事情。实际上，他们在视觉领域的其他工作上也应该获得两个诺贝尔奖。
But one thing that they missed however was something that you mentioned and is worth highlighting again which is that the brain maintainer is a very important thing. That the brain maintains the capacity for immense plasticity throughout the entire lifespan. That's absolutely clear. The conditions change from early to later in life. But your specific situation really highlights that and it's something I'd really like to talk about for a few minutes if you're willing.
然而，他们错过了一件你提到的并且值得再次强调的事情，那就是大脑的维持者是极其重要的。大脑在整个生命周期中保持着极强的可塑性。这是十分明确的。条件在早期与晚期的生活中发生了变化。但是你的具体情况确实强调了这一点，如果你愿意，我希望能花几分钟谈谈这个话题。
As you mentioned you experienced a stroke and perhaps it was aware to some but perhaps not all especially the people just listening to this podcast and who are not watching on video. That your shirt while very nicely designed in its original state also includes some unique stitching. So maybe you could share with us what and for those listening there's a jagged line of stitching that extends from Robert's left short sleeve to his midline to where the buttons on his shirt are. From his right short sleeve also to the midline offset from one another. This is the sort of stitching that looks like perhaps I had been at the sewing machine and not somebody was skilled but they did a good job basically putting it back together.
正如你所提到的，你曾经经历过一次中风，也许对一些人来说是有所意识的，但对那些只在此播客中聆听而没有观看视频的人来说，可能并不知情。你的衬衫在原始状态下设计得非常好，但也带有一些独特的缝线。也许你可以和我们分享一下，对于那些在听的人来说，从罗伯特的左短袖延伸出一条参差不齐的缝线，一直延伸到他衬衫上的扣子中央位置。右短袖也有一条类似的缝线，与之相对偏离。这种缝线看起来好像是我自己在缝纫机前操作的，而不是由专业人士完成的，但他们还是做得很好，基本上把它重新拼接在一起了。
Why are those stitches in your shirt? Tell us about the stroke and let's talk about neuroplasticity. It could also seem like a fashion statement but it really isn't.
为什么你的衬衫上有那些针脚？告诉我们关于中风的情况，让我们谈谈神经可塑性。这也可能看起来像是一种时尚宣言，但实际上并非如此。
Well it was May of 2018 it was my birthday and my wife gave me this shirt. I have a love of plaids it's like I don't know why I just love patterns and plaids must be like some scotch part of me some ancestor thing but I love plaids.
这是在2018年5月的时候，也就是我的生日，我的妻子送给了我这件衬衫。我对方格图案情有独钟，不知道为什么，我就是喜欢各种图案和方格，这可能是我血统中的苏格兰部分发挥作用的余波，但我真的非常喜欢方格图案。
Can I interrupt you just briefly forgive me everyone's going to get upset that interrupt. Do you know that there is a fundamental circuit in your visual cortex designed to detect plaid patterns? No I did not. Yes and we can talk about why that is it is tightly linked to your ability to perceive motion. Really? Yeah and we can go over it some other time but yeah so we'll talk about it. Just as a cue so okay yes back to your birthday.
我可以稍微打断一下吗，请原谅，大家可能会因此而生气。你知道你的视觉皮层中有一个基本的电路设计来检测斜纹图案吗？不，我不知道。是的，我们可以谈谈为什么会这样，它与你感知运动的能力紧密相关。真的吗？是的，我们以后再详细讨论，但是好，我们继续说。作为一个暗示，好，回到你的生日上来。
Okay so she gave me a plaid shirt knowing how much I loved it and I love this shirt I love the colors in it etc. And then two months three months later August 17 2018 I was driving my car she was with me. I was pulling out into traffic I started driving and suddenly she said pull over, pull over, why I can drive I'm fine. And then suddenly everything started getting really strange. Everything looked strange. My voice didn't sound the same and she was like freaking out. She was actually fairly calm which was amazing.
好的，所以她知道我有多喜欢格子衬衫，就给了我一件，而我真的很喜欢这件衬衫，喜欢它的颜色等等。然后两个月后，也就是2018年8月17日，我开车的时候她和我在一起。我正在驶出交通，开始开车，突然她说停下来，停下来，为什么我可以开，我没事。然后突然一切都变得非常奇怪。一切都看起来很奇怪。我的声音听起来不一样，她吓坏了。令人惊讶的是，她实际上相当冷静。
I was undergoing a stroke I had a blood clot that was blocking the blood flow to my brain. I actually at one point got out of the car like I was I don't know what the hell I was thinking. And then she pulled me back in and then the rest goes blank. And I had some weird sensations that still remain with me because essentially I was on the verge of dying because blood not flowing to your brain is basically the end of you right unless something happens very quickly. And she either that or you can get severe brain damage.
我正在经历中风，有一个血栓阻塞了我脑部的血流。实际上，我曾经在某一刻下车，就像我不知道自己在想什么那样。然后她把我拉回车里，然后接下来的事情就模糊了。我有一些奇怪的感觉，至今仍然存在，因为本质上，如果你的脑部血流不通，那就是你生命的尽头，除非有非常快的救治措施。否则，你要么会死亡，要么会遭受严重的脑部损伤。
So she called 911 right away she recognized something my whole face was looking funny and they got there. I was unconscious and essentially they took this shirt and just sizzered the thing in half and took it off my head and then they intubated me I believe in my hip area to get something the blood clot was in my neck and they were able to free it up and they rushed me to the hospital. And I'm unconscious and then I wake up and I'm in a gurney in the hospital and I don't for a moment I'm thinking maybe I'm dead because I'm lying in a gurney and I almost feel like I'm in a coffin. I don't know what's going on and I have all of these weird sensations.
所以她立刻拨打了911，因为她注意到我的整张脸看起来有点奇怪，然后急救人员赶到了。我当时昏迷不醒，他们就用剪刀把我的衣服剪成两半，从我的头上脱下来，然后他们给我插了一根管子大概在臀部，以取出我颈部的血块，并且他们匆忙地把我送往医院。当时我还没有醒来，然后我醒来时发现自己躺在医院的担架上，有一瞬间我甚至以为自己死了，因为我躺在担架上有种像在棺材里的感觉。我不知道发生了什么，而且我感觉到了一些奇怪的触感。
And I tell people we're so curious about death we think about death a lot and you know is it final what does it mean we really should pay attention to dying. Dying is actually much more interesting in some ways than death and people who have died go through a process if it's long enough and people who have had near death experiences like I do have gone through that process of dying and have come back to life.
我告诉人们，我们非常好奇死亡，我们经常思考死亡的意义，你知道它是否是终结，它意味着什么，我们真的应该关注死亡。在某种程度上，死亡其实比起死亡本身更加有趣，那些已经去世的人会经历一个长时间的过程，而那些像我一样有过临死经历的人也经历过那个死亡的过程，然后复活了过来。
And in the process of dying strange things happen to the brain right so particularly with a stroke or something like that where blood stops flowing to your oxygen stops flowing to your brain. You have kind of visions and things that you might think are hallucinations but that later seem like actually you are actually glimpsing the reality as opposed to the illusion that the brain creates. So I've written about this in my new book but my idea of the brain is that it creates endless series of illusions for you. It creates this seamless version of reality the sense of a self the sense of a continuous self through time right. It creates a linear sense of time progressions it creates colors it creates a world that visually you can seems familiar and etc etc.
在死亡过程中，大脑会发生奇怪的事情，尤其是在中风等情况下，血液和氧气无法正常流向大脑。你会出现一些幻觉或者可以说是幻觉，但后来你会发现其实你正在窥探现实而不是大脑创造出来的幻象。所以我在我的新书中写到了这一点，我的理念是，大脑为你创造了无尽的幻觉。它创造了一个无缝的现实版本，给你一种自我的感觉和连续的自我感，它创造了线性的时间进展，创造了色彩，创造了一个在视觉上似乎熟悉的世界，等等。
But it's all illusion it's all a construction right. Images come into your brain and they're not organized in any way and the brain organizes in a way that you can understand it. Well when you're dying all of that scrambles up and you actually are seeing something else so I saw for instance that I really don't have a self that it doesn't really actually exist.
但这都是幻象，都是一种构建对的。图像进入你的大脑，它们并没有以任何方式被组织，而大脑则以一种你可以理解的方式进行组织。然而当你临死时，所有的这一切都被搅乱了，你实际上会看到另一些东西，所以我看到了比如说我并没有真正存在的自我。
And the image that came to my mind because it was sitting in that gurney was a weird feeling of like I can almost not explain it but it's as if you took an image of something real in the world and you completely scrambled it up and it was all wavy and you couldn't see what exactly it was. To me that was the image I had of the self there are like 50 different selves inside of you that are all competing and you think there's just one and you think it's consistent but there's not it's an illusion. The self is literally an illusion that your brain constructs when you're dying you see these things when you're dying you see other things like that you see that time is something very weird.
在我的脑海中浮现的画面是一个奇怪的感觉，就好像你将现实世界中的一幅图像完全打乱了，变得扭曲模糊，无法看清到底是什么。对我来说，这就是我对自我的理解，你内心有着大约50个不同的自我在竞争，而你以为只有一个自我存在，并且是一致的，但实际上并非如此，这是一种错觉。当你行将离世时，自我实际上只是你的大脑在构建的一种幻觉，你在临死时会看到这些东西，你也会看到其他类似的东西，比如你会感觉到时间变得非常奇怪。
So I had experience when I got out of the car and I got pulled in I thought like 10 seconds had passed. My wife told me no this was like 10 minutes I had no sense of time. Everything was scrambled and so it was very very elegant. It taught me so much things that I can barely even express now. I'm always now thinking of strange things that come to me because my brain was damaged. It made me realize that the brain creates everything.
所以当我下车时，我经历了一段经历，被拉进去时，我以为只过去了10秒钟。我妻子告诉我，实际上已经过去了10分钟，我对时间没有任何感觉。一切都变得混乱，所以非常非常优雅。这给了我很多东西，现在我几乎无法表达。因为我的大脑受损，我现在总是考虑一些奇怪的事情，这让我意识到大脑创造了一切。
So I can't communicate with my hand my fingers. I can't communicate my brain can't communicate with my leg. Right. So you think that walking and writing and handling things is just your body operating a certain way. It's your brain telling you how to move these different things. When that brain stops functioning you realize how much your brain determines everything. It all starts there and when there's damage to your brain your whole thinking alters etc. Not to mention how you look at life itself after something like that.
所以我不能通过手指来交流。我的大脑也不能与腿部进行交流。对吧。所以你认为走路、写字和处理事情只是你的身体以某种方式运作。它是你的大脑告诉你如何移动这些不同的东西。当大脑停止工作时，你意识到大脑决定了一切的重要性。一切都从那里开始，当大脑受损时，整个思维都会改变，等等。更不用说在经历这样的事情后你如何看待生活本身了。
So it was a terrible experience. It's ruined so many things that I loved in life but it's given me an awful lot as well in return that I could go through. I could go on for hours and talk about because it was the most powerful experience of my life.
所以那是一次糟糕的经历。它毁了我生命中许多我所爱的东西，但同时也给予了我很多回报，让我能够经历。我可以花上几个小时继续谈论它，因为那是我生命中最强烈的经历。
When you were going through your re-emergence to consciousness in the hospital. Did you feel as if you were observing these multiple versions of yourself? Maybe a different way to phrase it is. Did you feel you were behind the circuit board that is your brain observing how you normally function and you could see multiple versions of self? Or was it something else where you sort of outside of your body and brain? I think it was more outside of my body and brain. I also had this other thing that happened where sometimes you can't remember your memory might be playing tricks on you.
当你在医院中意识重新苏醒的时候，你是否感觉你正在观察到自己的多个版本？或许可以用另一种方式表达，你是否感觉自己就像是身处在你的大脑这块电路板后面，观察着你正常的功能，并且看到了多个自己？还是说有其他情况，你有点像离开了自己的身体和大脑？我认为我更像是离开了自己的身体和大脑。我还曾经有过一种其他的经历，在那种情况下，有时候你可能无法记起自己的记忆，可能是记忆对你玩了个把戏。
So I also have to realize that maybe I'm not remembering exactly what happened or that I've since translated in a different way. So that's a caveat here and I'm aware of it. But I had this vision that I was dead when I first became conscious and that I was up in the sky and I was looking down. And my mother and my wife were talking and it's like over my grave I suppose. And I had this feeling. Everything's okay. I'm gone but life goes on. They're doing fine. It's okay.
所以我也必须意识到，也许我并不完全记得发生了什么，或者我已经以不同的方式解释了。所以这是个警告，而我也意识到了。但是，当我刚刚觉醒时，我有这种幻觉，我已经死了，我在天空中俯视着。我的母亲和妻子在谈话，就好像是在我的坟墓上。而我有这种感觉，一切都没事了。我已经离去，但生活还在继续。她们过得很好。没事的。
So I don't know about that sense of self whether it was like I'm aware of it happening but I have a feeling it was something from the outside. I don't really know the answer to that because it's very confused. The other feeling I had was life when having the stroke was life draining out of me and my bones getting softer and softer and softer. And I can't really logically explain that. The feeling of bones softening up and dissolving. But for weeks and months afterwards I could access that feeling of my bones dissolving etc. It was a feeling of all your energy draining out of you and you're dying literally.
所以我对那种自我意识并不清楚，它可能是我意识到正在发生的事情，但我感觉它来自外部。我不太清楚答案，因为很困惑。我还有另一种感觉，就是中风时生命被抽离而骨骼变得越来越柔软、越来越柔软、越来越柔软。我无法用逻辑解释这个感觉。骨骼变软和溶解的感觉。但在中风后的几周和几个月里，我仍能感受到骨头溶解等的感觉。那是一种你的能量全部流失，你实质上在垂死的感觉。
So reading books about near death experiences because that's a lot of what I'm a big part of my next book. God is fascinating. There's so many interesting things to go in because it teaches us so much. I'm so glad that A. you survived your stroke. B. that your mental faculties. You're not more grateful than I am. I'm probably not but still very grateful. So there just illustrates how grateful you must be. B. that you've maintained if not grown your mental faculties.
所以我正在阅读关于临死经历的书籍，因为这将是我下一本书的重要部分。上帝是令人着迷的。这本书有很多有趣的内容，它教会了我们很多东西。我很高兴你存活下来了（指A），还有你的思维功能（指B）。我可能没有你那么感激，但我仍然非常感激。这只是说明了你应该有多么感激（指B），并且你已经保持甚至增强了你的思维能力（指B）。
I mean you seem extremely sharp. I promise you you're not missing a beat. One always wonders. Actually one of the most common fears people have is that somehow they're losing their mind or their memory and people aren't. And they aren't aware of it. I have family members who have asked that if they ever start to exhibit signs of severe dementia that I put an end to them. Which I won't. That's not my place in this world. But I think it's a common fear among people. But you're still extremely sharp and thank goodness for it.
我的意思是，你看起来非常聪明。我向你保证，你一点也不错过。人们总是在想。实际上，人们最常担心的是自己是否正在失去理智或记忆，而他们又没有意识到。我家里有些亲属曾经问过我，如果他们开始表现出重度痴呆的迹象，是否可以帮他们了断。但我不会这样做。这不是我在这个世界上的责任。但我认为这是人们共同的恐惧。但是你依然非常聪明，真是太好了。
And you mentioned that while you've lost certain abilities that new appreciation and new abilities have surfaced. Can you perhaps share what some of those are and what they mean to you? Because I think that when one hears about somebody having a stroke we tend to focus on what's lacking. But clearly this has been a transformative experience also in positive ways.
你提到尽管你失去了一些能力，但也体验到了新的欣赏和新的能力。你能否分享一些具体的例子以及它们对你的意义呢？因为当我们听到有人中风时，我们往往会关注他们失去了什么。但显然，这也是一次积极的变革经历。
Well I had to confront some of my own demons. I had to confront the sense that I expected things out of life. And here they're taken away. And I'm kind of ungrateful for being alive. And here I'm pissed off that it takes me ten minutes to tie my shoes and I can't really button my shirt. I had to learn what really matters and to have patience and stuff.
嗯，我不得不面对自己内心的一些恶魔。我得面对自己对生活的期望感。然而，这些期望被夺走了。我对自己活着而心存不满。而现在，我为自己花了十分钟系鞋带感到恼火，而我穿不上衬衫的按钮让我烦躁。我必须学会珍惜真正重要的事情，并拥有耐心等等。
The other thing was I used to love hiking and I was very physically active and I'm sitting at my window in my office and see people running up and down bicycling walking their dogs. God I'm so envious. If I could walk a dog right now I'd be the happiest person alive. But then I go through a thought process which maybe isn't completely healthy which is they're not aware of how wonderful it is just to walk a dog. But I'm aware of it.
另一件事是，过去我很喜欢徒步旅行，非常活跃，现在我坐在办公室的窗户前，看到人们跑步、骑自行车、遛狗。天啊，我好羡慕。如果现在我能遛狗，我会是世界上最幸福的人了。但是接着我会经历一种也许不完全健康的思维过程，即他们不知道遛狗有多么美妙，而我知道。
So when I go out in my backyard and I can't walk and I'm seeing like I know this is going to sound really triacly and sentimental but I see butterflies or things in my garden. I'm like wow that's incredible. Things like that that I couldn't appreciate before because I'm sedentary and I can't move. I have to suddenly pay attention to what's around me, knock take it for granted and suck all the pleasure out of it that I can.
所以当我走出后院时，我无法行走，我看到了蝴蝶或者花园里的事物，可能听起来很肉麻和感性，但我会觉得哇，这太不可思议了。这些以前我无法欣赏的东西，因为我久坐不动。现在，我突然需要关注周围的事物，不能再对它们理所当然，要尽可能地从中获得快乐。
So now when I sit at my desk to write my new book it's four hours because that's all I can stand maybe three sometimes. Those four hours are like such bliss for me. I truly appreciate it now because I know that my brain was almost gone. So it means so much for me. And to just be alive you know is this a wondrous experience. I have a chapter in my new book called Awakened to the Strangeness of Being Alive. And it's about the fact that if you think about it and how unlikely it is that we humans evolved at all even that we even exist. All the bottlenecks in evolution that we had to pass through including the disappearance of the dinosaurs and the emergence of mammals. But there are 20 other huge bottlenecks throughout the history of evolution. We had to pass through all of those. We nearly went extinct 80,000 years ago from some virus that infected. There were only 8,000 people humans on the planet. All these different things. And here we are with zoom meetings etc. etc. It's like the strangest story you can ever do. It's beyond science fiction. But nobody thinks about it. Nobody sits down and goes, God I'm alive. If you went back to the chain of people that had to connect and have children leading up to your parents, the unlikeness of you ever being born is astronomical. Unless my science is all wrong. 70,000 generations of people meeting etc. Finally ending your DNA. Unless I'm missing something it's pretty unlikely. But nobody thinks about it.
现在，当我坐在写新书的桌子前时，我只能坚持四个小时，有时甚至只有三个小时。对我来说，那四个小时就像是极度的幸福。我现在真的很珍惜它，因为我知道我的大脑几乎不复存在了。所以它对我来说意义重大。而且，仅仅是活着就是一种奇妙的体验。我的新书中有一章叫做《被唤醒的生存之奇异》，讲述的是，如果你仔细思考一下，我们人类的进化是多么不可思议，甚至连我们存在都是如此。进化过程中有许多瓶颈，包括恐龙的灭绝和哺乳动物的出现。但漫长的进化史中还有二十个其他巨大的瓶颈。我们必须通过所有这些瓶颈才能存在至今。8万年前，我们几乎因为一种病毒濒临灭绝，当时地球上只有8000人类。还有许多其他的事情。而现在我们有了视频会议等等。这就像是一个最奇怪的故事，超越了科幻小说。但没有人会去思考它。没有人会坐下来感叹：“天啊，我还活着。”如果回溯到你的父母之前的人们所组成的血脉链条，你出生的几率是微乎其微的。除非我的科学理解有误。70000代人相遇等等，最终形成了你的DNA。除非我漏掉了什么，否则这种可能性非常低。但没有人会去思考它。
Well I certainly think about it now because I almost died. I had nothing else to think about. I have to entertain my brain the way Milton Erickson had to entertain himself by observing people. So it's taken a lot away from me. I can't swim. I'm riding my recumbent bike which I love. And 80 year old grandmothers are zipping by me. God damn it. How awful. I'm so envious. I'm so. My insecurities all well up. But then I realize, hey I'm like I'm on my counterboat. I'm sailing. It's wonderful. I'm outside. I have to go through these processes. But I think it's developed me in some way that's in the end very positive.
现在我一定会考虑这件事，因为我差点死了。我没有其他可以想的了。我必须像米尔顿·埃里克森一样通过观察人们来娱乐自己的大脑。所以这让我失去了很多东西。我不会游泳。我骑着我喜欢的躺式自行车。80岁的奶奶们都远远超过我。该死。太可怕了。我好羡慕。我真的很。我的不安全感都涌上心头。但后来我意识到，嘿，我好像在我的小船上。我在航行。这太美妙了。我在户外。我必须经历这些过程。但我认为它在某种程度上对我的成长是非常积极的。
It sounds like you've had to adjust to a new frame rate on life. Like the old movie had a certain frame rate. This movie has a certain frame rate. But that within that frame rate there are gifts to be had that you certainly missed in your prior version of self. Is that a brand?
听起来你不得不适应生活中的新帧率。就像旧电影有一个特定的帧率一样，这部电影也有一个特定的帧率。但在这个帧率中，有些你之前的自己肯定错过了的东西。这是一个品牌吗？
Yeah but also like I tell people this. I totally took my life for granted. I was swimming all this time. It was fantastic. I was bicycling. I was traveling. But I never set back and thought, wow this is wonderful. How grateful it is. It could be taken away from me. I tell people don't do that to yourself. I try and teach them. It can be taken away from tomorrow. When you're out walking the dog think of me. Think of me that can't walk the dog. And appreciate those things. Which I didn't appreciate. So I try and help people in that way when I can.
是的，但我也告诉别人这个道理。我完全对自己的生活不加珍惜。我一直在游泳，这太棒了。我一直在骑自行车，我一直在旅行。但我从未停下来想过，“哇，这真是太美妙了。我有多么感激它。它能被夺走。”我告诉别人不要这样对待自己。我试着教育他们。明天就可能被夺走。当你在遛狗的时候，请想一想我。想一想那个不能遛狗的我。要珍惜这些事情。这是我以前没有珍惜的。所以，我尽我所能地帮助别人在这方面。
I think a critical message is also to inspire a sense of urgency in people. I think people hear a sense of urgency and they go, oh I'm already under so much pressure. Life's so hard. But we're not talking about a sense of urgency to take on more of what life has to offer. I think we're talking about a sense of urgency to find one's purpose which takes work and is an ongoing process. But to really get out of modes of apathy, laziness, languishing and to start as you've described it, paying deeper attention.
我认为一个关键的信息是激发人们的紧迫感。我认为人们听到紧迫感就会说，哦，我已经承受了很大的压力。生活太艰难了。但我们并不是谈论要增加生活中的压力感。我认为我们谈论的是一种对找到自己的目标的紧迫感，这需要努力和持续的过程。但要真正摆脱冷漠、懒散和无所事事的状态，像你所描述的那样，开始更加深入地关注。
I mean this is a concept that was super important for me to hear about. And what I learned about it from you was how do you get yourself out of a rut? You start paying deeper attention to the things around you and inside you. And perhaps not coincidentally you referred to that as quote death ground. Yeah. So it's a strategy from my book, I wrote a book on strategy, my version of the art of war. It's called 33 Strategies of War, where it's really about strategy, the strategic thinking. It's inspired from Sun Tzu, the great Chinese strategist. But it has vast philosophical implications.
我的意思是这个概念对我来说非常重要。而从你那里我学到的是如何走出困境？你开始更加深入地关注周围和内心的事物。或许并非巧合的是，你把这称为“绝地”。是的。这是我书中的一个策略，我写了一本关于策略的书，是我对《孙子兵法》的理解，叫做《战争的33个策略》，它主要讲的是战略思维。但它也有广泛的哲学意义。
The idea is, you can almost think of it like barometric pressure. When necessity is pressing in on you, like your back is against the wall like you have to get something done. And there's like this pressure around you. You find energy in there that you never believed before. William James talks about this and when he talks about getting a second wind, he explains it very eloquently. When you feel like your life's in danger, suddenly you can leap over things that you never could leap over before.
这个概念就像气压一样，你可以几乎把它想象成气压。当你感到压力逼迫着你，就像你背靠在墙上，必须完成某件事情时，周围似乎有着一种压力。在这种情况下，你会发现自己获得了之前从未想过的能量。威廉·詹姆斯提到了这一点，当他谈到第二次迎头赶上时，他非常优雅地解释了这个现象。当你感到生命处于危险之中时，突然间你可以跨过之前无法跨越的障碍物。
So Sun Tzu says, put an army on death ground and it will fight until it wins. Meaning put an army with its back to the ocean or a back to the mountain. When death is facing you in the face or urgency or deadlines or people pressing in on you. When that barometric pressure loosens up and there's none of it, you think you have all the time in the world, you get nothing done. Wow, man. I'm 23. I got all these years ahead of me. I'm going to figure it out, right? I'm not going to die. I got 50, 70, 80 years ahead of me. No, you don't. That pressure now is gone and you're wasting time. You're doing all sorts of things that aren't leading to any kind of skill. You're not learning or anything.
所以孙子说，将军置于绝境，它将战斗到胜利为止。这意味着将军将军队背靠大海或高山。当死亡正面临你，或者是紧急情况、最后期限或人们逼迫你时。当气压松弛，没有了任何压力时，你会以为自己有无尽的时间，但其实一事无成。哇，伙计。我才23岁。我还有这么多年前面等着我。我会找到答案的，对吧？我不会死去。我有50、70、80年的时间。不，你并没有。现在的压力已经消失，你正在浪费时间。你在做一些对你没有任何技能提升的事情。你没有在学习或者做任何有意义的事情。
You need to put yourself on death ground. You need to feel that barometric pressure, which is the actual reality. The actual reality is you could die tomorrow. You could have a stroke tomorrow. You could be fired tomorrow. Everything could fall apart. You need to have that sense of urgency now because that's the reality. You're fooling yourself by thinking you have all of this time. When you feel that pressure, suddenly you can move mountains. You have energy, your life. You just have focus, et cetera. Neurologically, everything clicks in.
你需要让自己置身于绝境之中。你需要感受那种气压，即真实的现实。真实的现实是，明天你可能会死去，明天你可能会中风，明天你可能会被解雇，一切可能都会崩溃。你现在需要有这种紧迫感，因为那才是真实的现实。如果你误以为时间还很充裕，那就是在愚弄自己。当你感受到压力时，你会突然能够移山倒海。你会有力量，你的生活会焕发出活力。你只需要专注，等等。从神经学的角度来看，一切都会如切开竹笋般迅速发生。
People who've had that experience where they've felt like the ship was going under and they better get their act together and survive, they talk about all these physical processes. I have a story in my new book. I hope I'm not boring you. No, I'm not. They're quite the opposite. About a mountain climber who was climbing this mountain by himself. He was having a great time with us. There was a storm coming and he had to get down.
那些经历过船在下沉的情况，感觉必须收拾自己并幸存下来的人，他们会谈论所有这些身体过程。我在我的新书中有一个故事，希望我不会让你感到无聊。不，不会的。相反，他们非常有趣。这是关于一名登山者独自攀登这座山的故事。他和我们在一起时过得非常愉快。但有一场暴风雨即将来临，他必须下山。
He suddenly fell and he cut his leg open massively. It was like a branch sticking in it. He broke all these bones and he was going to die. He was on a ledge. He could see that it was getting dark and storm clouds were massing. It was in the rocky mountains. He was alone and suddenly he managed to get up on his two feet and he can't explain how. All of this energy, all of this adrenaline started flowing in them.
他突然摔倒，使他的腿被严重割伤，就像植物枝干扎进了他的腿里。他的骨头都断了，他即将丧命。他身处于一块悬崖上。他可以看到天色渐暗，暴风云正在聚集。那是在岩石山脉。他孤身一人，突然间竟然奇迹般地能够站起来，他无法解释这是如何发生的。所有的能量，所有的肾上腺素开始在他体内流动。
He said he was like a mountain goat. He was like going down the ledge. He jumped. He was able to get down to another ledge. He got out of it. For the next 20 years, it was haunted. How did that happen? I want that feeling again because it was actually the most ecstatic feeling. I had energy that I never suspected in myself. He tries everything to get that feeling back. He tries climbing other mountains. He tries going to mount ever. He tries it and it doesn't come back. Finally, he kind of figures out the formula for it and why it happened.
他说他就像一只山羊一样。他像沿着岩壁下去。他跳了下去，成功到达了另一个石台。他逃脱了险境。接下来的20年，他心神不宁。这是怎么发生的？我想再次感受到那种感觉，那实际上是最令人兴奋的感受。我有着我从未意识到的能量。他尝试了各种方法来重新找到那种感觉。他尝试攀登其他山峰。他试着前往珠穆朗玛峰。他试着这么做但却没有再找回那种感觉。最后，他有点弄清楚了其中的原理以及为什么会发生这样的事情。
He studies a lot of neuroscience. It's a great book. I'm using it in my new book. It's called Bone Games. It's a very interesting book. A lot of science in it. He got the feeling back in a smaller sense. It was the feeling of your life is in danger. I better get my act together. It's the end. Suddenly, adrenaline, dopamine, all the other things were occurring in him. He got any found that energy. That's the ultimate kind of death ground right there. The human will to live is truly incredible.
他研究了很多神经科学。这是一本很棒的书。我在我的新书《骨牌游戏》中使用了它。这是一本非常有趣的书。里面有很多科学知识。他在某种程度上感受到了那种生命危险的感觉。我最好整理好自己。这是结局了。突然间，肾上腺素、多巴胺以及其他的荷尔蒙都在他身体里发生作用。他获得了一种能量。那就是最终的绝境。人类的生存意志真是不可思议。
I have to say, as I said before, I'm so grateful that your stroke didn't take you out. Clearly, there's still so much in there and you're continuing to share what is really exquisitely useful knowledge. It's just astonishing to me. I started off today's discussion expressing my gratitude for what you've already done for my life and for the lives of so many other people with three-year books. It's clear you've been on a foraging exploration and that foraging for organizing and communicating information, mainly in the form of written books, but also online content. You have a terrific YouTube channel, which I've subscribed to and follow and listened to with wrapped attention. The other venues with which you share information, including this one today, are really truly valuable and appreciated.
我必须说，正如我之前所说的，我非常感激你没有受到中风的影响。显然，你脑海中还有很多东西，并且你继续分享那些非常有用的知识，真是令我感到惊讶。在今天的讨论中，我一开始就表达了对你对我的生活以及其他许多人的帮助的感激之情，这些帮助来源于你所写的三年书籍。很明显，你一直在进行一种寻找和整理信息的探索，主要以书籍的形式进行，同时也包括在线内容。你有一个非常好的YouTube频道，我已经订阅并关注，并且非常认真地听取。你在其他分享信息的平台，包括今天的这个，都是非常有价值且受人赞赏的。
I want to say on behalf of myself and for those that have known you and your work for a number of years, but also for the many people that are now sure to know who you are and what you're about. It's just so clear that this stuff comes from the heart and that whatever early seed planted this, that we're all grateful for and better off as a consequence of that seed. I could make this list very, very long with the number of specific ways in which you've improved the journey through life and made it clearer. Life is certainly can be hard, but it also can be really confusing. I feel that the Robert Green Road map, even though it's but one road map is an extremely valuable map to have and to use, certainly has been for me.
我想代表我自己以及那些多年来了解你和你的工作的人，还有那些现在肯定会知道你是谁以及你的想法的人，表达一下我的意思。很明显，这些都是发自内心的，并且无论是什么初衷，我们都对此表示感激，并因此变得更好。我可以列举很多你改善人生旅程并使之更加明确的具体方式。生活肯定是艰难的，但也可能很令人困惑。我觉得罗伯特·格林的指南，尽管只是一个指南，却是一个非常有价值且值得使用的地图，对我来说确实如此。
Just an enormous thank you, Robert. Thanks for sharing today and thanks for all you do and all that you're still doing and sure to do in the future. Oh, thank you. I wish I could find the word for explaining the kind of weird emotions that I'm feeling when I hear that. There isn't maybe Yiddish, maybe for a clamped or something. I don't know, but thank you. Yeah. We'll have to have you back here again when your next book comes out. Can't wait, but we will wait. Okay. All right. Yeah. Hopefully I'm still around. I'm confident you will be. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much.
非常感谢你，罗伯特。感谢你今天的分享，感谢你所做的一切和将来还将做的一切。哦，谢谢。我希望我能找到一种词来解释当我听到这些话时感到的奇怪情感。也许在意第绪语中有一个类似于"clamped"的词吧，我不知道，但还是谢谢。是的，当你的下一本书出版时我们一定会再次邀请你来这里。我迫不及待了，但是我们会等待的。好的，好的。是的，希望我还活着。我相信你一定会的。好了，谢谢。谢谢。非常感谢。
I hope I will. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Robert Green. I hope you found the conversation to be as stimulating as I did. If you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple. You can leave us up to a five star review. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.
我希望我能。感谢你今天参加与罗伯特·格林的讨论。希望你觉得这次对话像我一样令人兴奋。如果你从这个播客中学到了东西并且喜欢，那请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是一个绝佳的零成本支持方法。另外，请在Spotify和Apple上订阅这个播客。你可以给我们评上最高的五星好评。还请关注今天剧集一开始和整个剧集中提到的赞助商。这是支持这个播客的最好方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discussed supplements. While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus. To see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to LiveMomentus spelled O U S. So that's livemomentus.com slash Huberman.
如果你对我有问题，或者对播客、嘉宾或话题有评论，希望我在Huberman Lab播客中考虑，请在YouTube的评论区留下它们。我会阅读所有评论。并非在今天的剧集上，但在许多以前的Huberman Lab播客剧集上，我们讨论了补充剂。虽然补充剂并非对每个人都必要，但许多人从中获得了很大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持激素和提高注意力。要了解在Huberman Lab播客中讨论的补充剂，你可以访问livenomentus.com/Huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, LinkedIn, and Facebook. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名是Huberman Lab。这包括Instagram、X、Threads、LinkedIn和Facebook。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一部分内容与Huberman Lab播客的内容重叠，但还有很多内容与Huberman Lab播客不同。再次强调，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名都是Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our monthly neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as toolkits. The toolkits are brief PDFs that you can download that give you tools for things like neuroplasticity and learning, for managing dopamine, for enhancing sleep, for physical performance, flexibility, deliberate cold exposure, and on and on. To join the neural network newsletter, you simply go to HubermanLab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. We do not share your email with anybody.
如果您还没有订阅我们的每月神经网络新闻简报，这个简报是一个免费的每月简报，包括播客摘要和工具包。这些工具包是简短的可下载PDF文件，为您提供促进神经可塑性和学习的工具，管理多巴胺，改善睡眠，提高身体表现，灵活性，冷暴露等。要加入神经网络新闻简报，您只需访问HubermanLab.com，点击菜单栏，向下滚动至简报页面，并输入您的电子邮件地址。我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件地址。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Robert Greene.
再次感谢您参加今天与罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但绝对不是最不重要的，非常感谢您对科学的兴趣。