An historic global heist — and a rapper on trial

There is a massive criminal case I have become obsessed with, and it's not the one you're probably thinking about. It all started with jury duty.

我有一个巨大的犯罪案件让我着迷，而不是你可能想到的那一个。一切都始于陪审团职务。

I got a court summons last week which I hate to admit I wasn't too thrilled about.

上个星期我收到了一份法庭传票，我不得不承认，我对此并不是很兴奋。

Yes, I know it's my civic duty, but this was taking me away from other things I do, like, you know, hosting the show.

是的，我知道这是我的公民责任，但这让我离开了其他我要做的事情，比如你知道的，主持节目。

So anyway, I did show up to federal court in DC and I was not thinking about this special trial I was summoned for. I was just wondering how long I'd have to be there.

所以，我确实到了华盛顿的联邦法院，但我并没有考虑我被传唤参加的特别审判。我只是在想我要在那里待多久。

And then the judge revealed what this case was about, which apparently was all over the news. One of the founders of the hip-hop group Fougies is facing a multi-million dollar fraud and conspiracy charge, or several charges. The Grammy Award winner, Prasem Schell, is accused of using stolen cash to make illegal political contributions. Yeah, Pras of the Fougies.

然后法官揭示了这个案件的情况，这显然在新闻中广为流传。嘻哈音乐组合Fougies的创始人之一面临着1000多万美元的欺诈和密谋指控，或者还有其他指控。葛莱美奖得主普拉斯姆·谢尔被指控使用盗来的资金进行非法的政治捐赠。是啊，就是Fougies里的普拉斯。

So I sat in a courtroom with about a hundred other potential jurors as the judge asked us questions. Questions like, do we know any of these people personally or would their reputation buy us us? People who are going to be either potential witnesses or just might come up during the trial. People including Leonardo DiCaprio, Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, Kim Kardashian.

所以，我和大约一百名其他可能的陪审员一起坐在法庭上，法官向我们提出了问题。这些问题包括：我们是否认识这些人中的任何一个，或者这些人的名声是否会影响我们的裁决？这些人可能是潜在的证人或者只是在审判期间可能会被提及的人，其中包括莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥、史蒂夫·班农、鲁迪·朱利安尼和金·卡戴珊。

What?

请将以下英文翻译成中文自然语言。如果需要，请重新表达"What?"。 What? -> 什么？

I kept a poker face, but my mind was racing. Like what was this even about? How were all of these people connected? But I could not ask anyone. The judge ordered us not to consume any news about the trial, let alone talk about it.

我保持着一张冷静的脸，但我的脑海里在飞速思考：这到底是关于什么的？这些人之间有什么联系？但我不能问任何人。法官命令我们不要阅读任何与审判相关的新闻，更不要谈论它。

So I sat for three days in a courtroom waiting to be interviewed as a potential juror. That never even happened. On the third day, they selected other people for the jury and they let me go.

所以我在法庭上等了三天，等待被采访成为潜在的陪审团员。但这从未发生过。第三天，他们选择了其他人作为陪审团员，然后让我离开了。

Which is why I can talk about this case now and why I could finally ask all of my burning questions. Lucky for me, I work at the post. So I turned a criminal justice editor Matt Zapatowski.

这就是为什么我现在能谈论这个案件并且能够最终问出我所有的问题。我很幸运在邮局工作，所以我向刑事司法编辑Matt Zapatowski求助。

So Matt, beyond all the celebrities in this and the intrigue, why should any of us be paying attention to this trial?

那么，马特，除了所有这些名人和阴谋之外，为什么我们中的任何人都应该关注这次审判呢？

So I think we should be paying attention to this trial because it's a real test of whether the government, the US government can hold accountable its citizens who benefited from one of the greatest thefts in the world history.

我认为我们应该关注这次审判，因为这是真正的考验，看看美国政府是否能惩罚那些从世界历史上最大的盗窃中受益的公民。

From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Ella Haye-Zadi. It's Monday, April 3rd.

这里是《华盛顿邮报》的新闻室报道。我是艾拉·哈耶-扎迪。今天是四月三日星期一。

Today, I talk with Matt about the trial of former Fuji's rapper, Praz Michelle, and how it's connected to this complex financial scandal that involves $4.5 billion of stolen funds from the Malaysian government.

今天我和马特谈论了前藤木说唱歌手Praz Michelle的审判，以及与这个牵涉450亿美元各种偷盗来自马来西亚政府财政丑闻相关的事情。

Matt, remind us tell us who is the defendant in this trial.

马特，请提醒我们，告诉我们这场审判中被告是谁。

Okay, so the defendant is a guy named Praz Michelle, which might not mean anything to anybody just on the name, but he was a member of this rap group called the Fuji's, and names that might resonate more with people would be like Lauren Hill, who was a part of that Whitecluff John, who was a part of that. They were very popular in the 90s.

好的，所以被告人的名字是普拉兹·米歇尔，这个名字可能对任何人来说并没有什么特别的意义，但他是一个名为富吉斯的说唱组合的成员，一些可能更为人所知的名字包括劳伦·希尔和怀特克利夫·约翰，他们都是这个组合的一部分。他们在90年代非常受欢迎。

The song that I remember the most of theirs is killing me softly.

我记得他们的歌中最让我印象深刻的一首是《杀死我缓慢地》。

Yes, that was a great one.

是的，那是一个非常棒的。

Ready or not, I also love that song.

准备好或不准备，我也喜欢那首歌。

Oh, ready or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

哦，准备好了还是不？是的，是的，是的。

Super popular group in the 90s. Yes, and this guy was a part of that. He might not have been as well known as Whitecluff John and Lauren Hill, but he was a part of that.

90年代的超级流行团体。是的，这个人就是其中的一员。他可能不像怀特克拉夫特·约翰和劳伦·希尔那样出名，但他也是其中之一。

Eventually, they break up, and he embarks on a solo career that was not familiar to me, but that too is on trial right now.

最终，他们分手了，他开始了一段我不熟悉的独立事业，但现在这也面临考验。

And so what has Praz been charged with by the government?

那么，政府对普拉兹提出了什么指控？

It's very convoluted, but the technical charges are conspiracy, money laundering, acting as a foreign agent in the US, witness tampering.

这个很复杂，但技术指控包括密谋、洗钱、在美国充当外国代理人、妨碍证人作证。

It all stems from, I'll try to say this as simply as possible. It stems from this scandal where Malaysian government officials raided a fund that their country controlled, kind of used it as a personal piggy bank, tried to wander the money in the US. And then enlisted people in the US, Praz included, to try to cover up everything that they had done to try to thwart justice department investigations into what they had done.

这一切的根源是，我会尽可能简单地说一下。源于马来西亚政府官员抢劫了他们国家控制的一个基金，并将其作为个人储蓄罐，试图在美国逃避资金。然后在美国招募了包括Praz在内的人，试图掩盖他们所做的一切，阻挠司法部门对他们所做的调查。

I do remember when this blew up because it was a really big deal, right? Yeah, it was huge, like a historically big deal. At its core, the folks here involved are accused of stealing 4.5 billion with a B dollars from this Malaysian government controlled fund that was supposed to be used for economic development to benefit its citizens instead, prosecutors' alleged, it benefited a very small number of people who were in charge. And the money is just everywhere.

我还记得这个事情爆出来的时候非常轰动，对吧？是的，它是历史级别的大事件。本质上，这些人被指控从马来西亚政府控制的基金中盗取了价值45亿美元（B表示十亿），这些钱原本应该用于经济发展，惠及公民，然而检察官声称这些钱被管理者乱用了，只有极少数人得到了好处。这些钱到处都是。

I mean, they took it out. They used it to fund films in the US, to buy property, artwork, and the amount of money is just so massive. And this has been going on for years when I covered the justice department starting in 2016.

我的意思是，他们把它拿走了。他们用它来资助美国的电影，购买房产、艺术品，数额之大实在令人震惊。这种情况已经持续数年，我从2016年开始涉足司法部门报道时就已经知道了。

One of the first big things I covered was the justice department using this process called civil asset forfeiture to go after the proceeds of Wolf of Wall Street, which was funded the Justice Department alleged by this month. So you listen to me and you listen well. Are you behind on your credit card bills? Go out, pick up the phone and start dialing. So the movie Wolf of Wall Street allegedly funded by the stolen money from a Malaysian economic development fund. Correct, yeah. And start dialing.

我最初报道的重要事件之一是司法部使用一种叫做民事财产没收的程序来追查《华尔街之狼》的收益，据司法部声称，这部电影是本月资助的。所以你要听我说，好好听着。你的信用卡账单拖欠了吗？走出去，拿起电话开始拨号。所以华尔街之狼电影据称是由一个马来西亚经济发展基金的盗用钱资助的。没错，开始拨号。

I want you to deal with your problems by becoming rich. Or all you have to do today is pick up that phone and speak the words that I have taught you.

我想让你通过变得富有来解决你的问题。或者你今天只需要拿起电话说出我教给你的话就行了。

Matt, can you tell me a little bit more about where this money comes from? Yeah, so the money in this fund, it's a fund called 1MDB. I almost think of it like a government controlled company that sells bonds and does investment work to try to grow itself and benefit the Malaysian people. But instead of that happening, prosecutors alleged that top government officials and their associates just stole from this and spent it on their personal whims and desires.

马特，你能告诉我这笔钱来自哪里吗？嗯，这个基金的钱来自1MDB。 我几乎认为它是一个由政府控制的公司，出售债券并进行投资工作，以试图使自己增长并造福马来西亚人民。 但是，检察官声称，政府高层官员及其同伙偷走了这笔钱，并将其用于个人兴趣和欲望，而不是实现该基金的目标。

And this scandal led to the Prime Minister, now former Prime Minister of Malaysia, getting charged and going to jail. Not in the US, over in Malaysia, where he allegedly stole from this fund. But it had really sweeping tentacles from the jump long before we knew about Praz. This had sort of strained the diplomatic relationship between the US and Malaysia. Malaysia is an ally. It roiled that country's politics. It really has had far reaching tentacles and it's continued just for years and years and years.

这起丑闻导致马来西亚现任总理被控并入狱。这并不是在美国，而是在马来西亚，他据称从这个基金中盗取了资金。但是早在我们知道普拉兹之前，它就已经有广泛的触角了。这种事件使美国和马来西亚的外交关系变得紧张。马来西亚是一个盟友。它动荡了该国的政治局势。这件事实际上已经持续了多年，它的触角一直延伸着。

Okay, so I'm sorry, my mind is going into a thousand different directions, but I get it. It's this massive scandal. And so do prosecutors alleged that Praz, this former rapper from the Fuji's, is one of the central key characters of this big scandal. Like who's at the center of this? He wasn't the architect by any stretch and there are so many offshoots that we probably can't get into them all here. But the key guy to know is a guy named Jolo who is this sort of mysterious Malaysian figure who orchestrates almost every piece of this.

好的，抱歉，我的思维正在走向一千个不同的方向，但我明白了。这是一起大规模的丑闻。检察官声称Praz，这位来自Fuji的前说唱歌手，是这场大丑闻的核心关键人物之一。像谁是这个中心人物？他不是极力推动者，还有很多分支，我们可能无法在这里一一讨论。但需要知道的关键人物是一个叫Jolo的人，他是一位神秘的马来西亚人物，几乎是这场丑闻的所有部分都由他协调安排。

He's accused of trying to cover this up, accused of receiving stolen money. Even many Americans that he connects with, he connects with Praz. And Praz's role is a little more narrow, but in some prosecutors alleged he tries to use this money to ingratiate himself in the Obama administration to sort of funnel campaign donations to the Obama administration in amounts that are legally acceptable, though he's the source of it all. So it's not. Lois.

他被指控试图掩盖此事，还被指控收到了赃款。他甚至与许多美国人联系，都是通过Praz联系的。Praz的作用有点狭窄，但一些检察官声称他试图使用这些钱来拉拢奥巴马政府，以将竞选捐赠金额分流到奥巴马政府中，这些金额在法律上是合法的，尽管这些钱的来源是他自己。所以这不是Lois的事情。

Lo is the original source of all of this money. And what is alleged is that Praz is involved in trying to cover up that this is actually foreign money flowing into a US campaign. Separately he's accused of this really outlandish scheme to get this Chinese dissident deported, which Jolo thought would help him in some way. It's very confusing, but the short answer to your question is Praz is not at the center of this necessarily, but he's one of these people who Jolo enlists to try to ingratiate himself in US politics and get this investigation shut down.

Lo 就是这笔钱的原始来源。所指称的是 Praz 涉嫌试图掩盖这实际上是外国资金流入美国竞选的事实。此外，他还被指控策划了一个非常荒谬的计划，试图将一名中国异议人士驱逐出境，Jolo 认为这将在某种程度上帮助他。这很令人困惑，但简单回答你的问题是，Praz 不一定处在这个事件的中心，但他是 Jolo 招募的人之一，试图在美国政治中取得好处，并关闭这项调查。

Tell me more about Jolo. Like, where is he from? What is his story? How did he end up in this situation? Yeah, I think even prosecutors would like to know more about Jolo. Jolo is this Malaysian guy a little bit mysterious, but who shows up on the scene with the American social scene with a ton of money? He starts partying with celebrities. He's helping their various business ventures. He's connected to all sorts of people.

告诉我更多关于Jolo。比如，他来自哪里？他的故事是什么？他是如何陷入这种境地的？是的，我想就连检察官也想更多地了解Jolo。Jolo是这个有些神秘的马来西亚人，但他带着一大笔钱出现在美国社交场合里。他开始与名人一起聚会。他帮助他们的各种商业企业。他与各种人有联系。

Leonardo DiCaprio is maybe the most famous, but also Kim Kardashian. Wait, how is he connected to Kim Kardashian? This was a question I had when her name came up. So Kim Kardashian is among the many celebrities that Jolo kind of parties with. I think famously, he gives her then fiance, Chris Humphreys. I did not have Chris Humphreys on this bingo card. I'm sorry.

莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥可能是最有名的，但也有金·卡戴珊。等等，他和金·卡戴珊有什么关系？当她的名字出现时，我就有了这个问题。所以，金·卡戴珊是乔洛和许多名人一起聚会的其中一员。我想他以前送过一份礼物给她的未婚夫克里斯·汉弗莱斯，但我在这个彩票卡上没有写下克里斯·汉弗莱斯的名字。对不起。

Yeah, Chris Humphreys, you know, the former Washington Wizards player who was famous for participating in Kim's show, he gives him $100,000 to pay for fireworks at Kim Kardashian and Chris Humphreys wedding. Which was like a big reality TV moment that wedding. On behalf of Kim and Chris and their respective families, I want to welcome you to the celebration of marriage. So Jolo is connected to that moment? Yes, in that he financed the fireworks for that moment, allegedly.

嗯，克里斯·汉弗莱斯，你知道吧，前华盛顿奇才球员，也因参加金的节目而出名。他给金·卡戴珊和克里斯·汉弗莱斯的婚礼支付了10万美元的烟花费用，这是一个很大的真人秀时刻。我代表金、克里斯及其家庭欢迎大家来参加这个婚礼庆典。Jolo与这一时刻有关吗？是的，据说他为该时刻提供了资金支持。

Okay, so he's partying in the United States, you know, hobnobbing with all these different celebrities. How did he start using his money as prosecutors say to and are alleging to influence spheres of power? There's kind of phases of this. And the first phase is sort of a money laundering phase the way prosecutors tell it. He's taking the stolen money and putting it in sort of legitimate US business ventures to make it look clean. Flash forward more to the aspect that Praz is involved after he gets under investigation for the alleged stealing of the money after he and many others come under investigation for that and the laundering of the money, he wants to try to shut that investigation down.

好的，他正在美国参加派对，你知道的，与各种名人交往。检察官说他是如何开始利用自己的财富，以影响权力范围的？这有几个阶段。第一阶段是洗钱阶段，就像检察官所说的那样，他把被盗的钱放在合法的美国商业企业中，使其看起来很干净。更进一步地说，当Praz被调查涉嫌盗窃资金后，他参与其中，以及洗钱之后，他想试图关闭调查。

And one of the ways he sees to do that is to ingratiate himself in US politics. So he hooks up with Praz, I think they meet at a nightclub in New York City. And he, the way prosecutors tell it, he gives Praz money that he wants to funnel into then President Obama's reelection campaign. So he gives Praz a ton of money. There are rules about how much any person can donate to the president. So Praz and Lists, the way prosecutors tell it, what are called straw donors, he gives them the money that Jolo has given him allegedly. They try to donate it in legal amounts to President Obama's reelection campaign. But of course, because all this money emanates from one person, prosecutors say this is illegal, it's a scheme called straw donations.

他看到了一种实现这一目标的方式，那就是在美国政治界里取得好感。所以他和普拉兹结交了，我想他们是在纽约市的一个夜总会相遇的。据检察官说，他给了普拉兹一些钱，他想将这些钱转移到当时的总统奥巴马的连任竞选活动中。所以他给普拉兹大量的钱。捐赠给总统的金额有规定。因此，据检察官所说，普拉兹和利斯特是所谓的草人捐助者，他们给他们所谓的约洛（Jolo）的钱。他们试图以合法的金额向奥巴马总统的连任竞选活动捐款。但当然，因为所有这些钱都来自一个人，检察官称这是非法行为，这被称为草人捐赠计划。

And would it be illegal because the money is coming from a person who's not an American? Yeah, that's exactly right. Because the original source of this prosecutor's alleged is low, is foreign money. And Praz, they alleged, orchestrates or participates in this cover up, funneling it through other people to really disguise the source. That's the crime here, that the prosecutor's alleged that this is foreign money. And Praz essentially disguised it by using these kind of straw donors.

这样说对吗，如果这笔钱来自一个不是美国人的人，那么这是否非法？是的，完全正确。因为这位检察官所谓的原始资金是低位的外国资金。而被指控的 Praz 则通过其他人进行策划或参与这种掩盖，从而真正地伪装资金来源。这是这个案件中的罪行，检察官指控这是外国资金。而 Praz 则通过使用这些替代捐赠者来伪装它。

And Matt, how much money do prosecutors say is involved in the Praz-Michelle piece of this big financial scandal? So just in the Praz-Michelle piece of this, they say that he got over $70 million from low. And there's kind of the two pieces here. There's the money that Praz and Brody allegedly get for lobbying to get a Chinese dissident deported from the country. And then there's the campaign finance piece of this. That's a little bit smaller, the big in the scope of campaign finance things. They say that Praz got $2 million, which was then sort of chopped up and funneled through.

马特，检察官说在这场大型金融丑闻中，Praz-Michelle这部分涉及多少钱？所以在Praz-Michelle这个部分，他们说他从低水平获得了超过7000万美元。这里有两个方面。一个是Praz和Brody声称从游说中获得，以将中国异议人士驱逐出境的钱。然后还有这个选举资金的一部分，相对于选举资金事物的规模来说有点小。他们说Praz得到了200万美元，然后被切开并被导入了其他地方。

Okay, tell me about the connection to the Trump White House here, because when I was hearing some of the names of the possible witnesses, I was hearing names like Rudy Giuliani and Steve Fanon. And how is the Trump White House involved in this or connected to this? So again, now we're in the period where the investigation is long underway. The investigation into low. Into low into the theft of the money and the laundering of the money. And by prosecutors telling, Jolo is now trying to just end this thing, just get this investigation off his plate.

好吧，请告诉我这里与特朗普白宫有什么联系，因为当我听到一些可能的证人的名字时，我听到像鲁迪·朱利安尼和史蒂夫·法农这样的名字。特朗普白宫是如何参与或联系到这件事的？所以现在我们已经进入了长期进行的调查阶段。调查追踪低价销售和洗钱方面的情况。据检察官说，乔洛现在正试图结束这件事，把这项调查从他的手头拿走。

So he enlists people to start lobbying the Trump White House. Perhaps the most famous or important to this effort is a guy named Elliott Brody, who is a prominent Republican player. It was once the deputy finance chair for the RNC. The way prosecutors tell it, he gets enlisted by Jolo to lobby the Trump White House. That's illegal because you're not supposed to lobby on behalf of foreign nationals.

所以他招募人们开始游说特朗普白宫。可能最著名或最重要的人是一位名叫埃利奥特·布罗迪的家伙，他是一位显赫的共和党人。曾经是共和党全国委员会财务副主席。检方告诉我们的是，他被乔洛邀请来游说特朗普白宫。这是非法的，因为你不能代表外国人进行游说。

Brody is actually charged in this case because you're not allowed to lobby the administration on behalf of the foreign national. He pleads guilty, but then in this huge swath of pardons that Trump does right before he leaves office, he makes it go away for broiding. Why is low not standing trial? Low nobody knows where he is. People suspect he is in China. He actually has a spokesperson who will periodically issue statements asserting his innocence, but he is not untri- he is charged. He's not on trial because, you know, he's not here in the US as best anyone can tell.

布罗迪实际上因为不允许代表外国公民在政府部门进行游说而受到指控。他认罪了，但然后在特朗普离任前进行的这场大赦中，特朗普让这个罪名消失了。为什么罗没有接受审判呢？没有人知道罗在哪里。人们猜测他在中国。他实际上有一位发言人会定期发表声明声称他的清白，但他并没有被无罪释放——他受到了指控。他没有接受审判，因为你知道，据大家所知，他不在美国。

Is Pra's the only person charged who is connected to this bigger case against low? Oh, they've charged a bunch of other people. And Pra's piece of this again is kind of connected to the politics, to the campaign finance, to the lobbying he's connected to Brody. That's the Pra's piece of it, but they've charged people at Goldman Sachs who they alleged were involved in this. They've charged low, he's abroad. As I mentioned, they charged Brody, they charged a woman who worked with Brody. A lot of people have been charged in connection with the scandal. And separate of the charges, the US has moved to seize a lot of assets and civil proceedings, too. So it's not as if Pra's is just the easy target who's here. Right. He's just one of many branches of this.

Pra是否是与Low大案有关唯一被指控的人？哦，他们还指控了其他很多人。而Pra被指控的部分与政治、竞选资金和他与Brody的关系有关。这是Pra的部分，但他们还指控了Goldman Sachs公司的人，他们被指控涉及这个事件。他们指控了“低”（Low），他正在国外。正如我之前提到的，他们指控了Brody，指控了与Brody共事的女人。许多人因涉嫌这起丑闻而被指控。而且，美国还通过民事诉讼来收回很多资产。所以，Pra并不是唯一的容易攻击目标。对，他只是这个事件的众多分支之一。

Matt, I know Pra's Michelle has pleaded not guilty to these charges. Can you tell me, what is his defense against these accusations? On the campaign finance piece, his defense in a nutshell is, look, I'm just a former rapper. I don't know about campaign finance laws. I didn't know that this was illegal. He separately is charged in connection. I mentioned with this very convoluted plot to extradite or send back to China, this dissident who was staying in the United States. And his defense there is, I wasn't doing that on behalf of China. I was doing that because I thought that would benefit the United States in some way. But in a nutshell, he's sort of saying, I'm a bit player here and didn't even really have a good sense of what was going on. I certainly wasn't intending to break any laws or violate any of my duties as an American.

马特，我知道普拉斯的米歇尔已经就这些指控进行了无罪辩护。你能告诉我，他对这些指控的辩护是什么吗？在竞选资金部分，他的辩护可以简析为，看，我只是一个前说唱艺人，我不了解竞选资金法律。我不知道这是非法的。另外，他也被指控与这个非常复杂的阴谋有牵连，目的是将留在美国的这个异见人士引渡或送回中国。他在那里的辩护是，我不是代表中国这样做的，我是因为认为这样做对美国有益才这样做的。但总的来说，他想表达的是，我只是一个小角色，甚至对于发生了什么并没有明确的了解。我当然没有任何违法的意图，也没有违反作为美国人的职责。

And when do prosecutors say about Pra's, how have they characterized him? Well prosecutors say he is not a doob. They have alleged that he has actually tried to intimidate some of the witnesses who he allegedly funneled money through to get to the Obama campaign. They cast him as a very involved player here. And their arc of him is that he kind of after his Fuji's career ends, he falls a little bit on hard times and is looking for money and that's where he gets connected to some of these folks. And could Pra's face prison time for this? Oh sure. The charges against him are quite serious. You know, witness tampering is quite serious. Money landering is quite serious. If it were isolated to maybe just the foreign agents thing, perhaps not, but the case is somewhat bigger than that. So yeah, he certainly theoretically could. There's a couple of steps between now and then you'd have to be convicted at trial. He says he's innocent. A judge would have to find that those crimes are worthy of prison time, but certainly it's possibility.

检察官对Pra有何评价？检察官表示他不是无辜的，他据称试图恐吓一些他通过传递钱财到奥巴马阵营的证人。他们认为他在这里是一个非常重要的角色。他的经历是他离开峰会后遭遇了一些困难，需要钱财，这就是他与这些人联系的原因。Pra会面临监禁吗？是的。对他的指控相当严重，证人干扰和洗钱都是非常严重的犯罪。如果仅仅是外国特工的事情，或许不算太大，但这个案子还有点更复杂。所以理论上是有可能的。需要通过几个步骤才能达到这个目标，包括被判有罪，法官判决这些罪行需要坐牢时间，但肯定是有可能的。

After the break, we piece together how all of these celebrities and political figures fit into this massive scandal. We'll be right back.

休息之后，我们会拼凑起来这些名人和政治人物是如何参与到这场大规模的丑闻中的。我们马上回来。

Matt, when I was sitting in the courtroom and lawyers are listing off names of people who might be witnesses or their names might be mentioned in the case, you know, these names I was hearing was like Alicia Keys, Swiss Beats, Paris Hilton. And because I couldn't like for three days look anything up, I'm just sitting there wondering how are all these people connected to this? Do you know the answer to that? Essentially, it's through low, you know, low in the US was partying, was lavishing money on these people, letting some of these people, Leo, for example, gamble on his tab. That's how it was. Amble on his tab. So what he gave allegedly gave Leonardo DiCaprio money and Leonardo DiCaprio gamble with that money? I see. I guess what's also interesting to me about this is that famous people or people in positions of high power, it doesn't, if someone just arrives with tons of money, they can, you know, quickly find themselves in the epicenter of power and the epicenters of power both politically and culturally and all of a sudden you're having people now connected to this thing and they had no idea that any of this was going on. Right. And Leonardo DiCaprio, I think he had an interest in making and getting movies made. And so here comes along this wealthy Malaysian businessman who can help in those ventures. And you know, Leonardo DiCaprio's people has said, and I think this is an important point to drive because prosecutors I think agree with this. Once they realized there was something amiss with Jolo and the people around him who are, some of whom have also been charged, they cooperated with federal prosecutors and Leonardo DiCaprio is not considered, you know, a person who could potentially be charged in this investigation. He's considered very much a witness because like you say, he's just a celebrity who's, you know, rubbing elbows with rich people quite frequently to him. Initially, Jolo is just another rich person who can help movies get made. And then by his account, once things start to go south, once he starts to realize this money might not be gotten on the up and up by his account, he starts to cooperate with prosecutors.

马特，在我坐在法庭里听律师列举可能作证人的名字或可能在案件中被提到的人的名字时，你知道，我听到的这些名字就像艾丽西亚·凯斯、瑞士贝茨、帕里斯·希尔顿。因为我不能查阅任何东西超过三天，所以我就坐在那里想知道这些人和这个案子有什么关系？你知道答案吗？实际上，是通过Jolo，你知道，Jolo在美国尽情地玩乐，给这些人滥用金钱，例如让一些人，比如Leo，在他的账单上赌博。这就是情况。他所谓的给于莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥的钱，莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥使用了那些钱赌博吗？我明白了。我想，对我来说，还有一件事情有趣，那就是有名人或高权势人物，只要有人带着大量的钱到来，他们就可以很快地发现自己处在政治和文化动荡的中心，突然间，你会发现有些人与这件事情有关，他们根本不知道任何事情发生了。是的。莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥，我想他对制作电影有兴趣。然后，这位富有的马来西亚商人出现了，可以帮助这些项目。你知道，莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥的团队已经表示，我认为这是一个重要的观点，因为检察官也同意这一点。一旦他们意识到Jolo和他周围的人有问题，其中一些人也被指控，他们就与联邦检察官合作，莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥被认为是一个非常重要的证人，而不是一个可能被起诉的人。就像你说的，他只是一个名人，经常与富人交往而已。起初，Jolo只是另一个可以帮助电影制作的富人。然后根据他的说法，一旦事情开始变得困难起来，一旦他开始意识到这些钱可能不是以正当手段获得的，他开始与检察官合作。

And Matt, did Leonardo DiCaprio testify? Is he going to testify as part of Prisma Shell's trial? Yeah, he actually took the stand today. We had a reporter there, a couple reporters there trying to catch him going in and out. It seems nobody caught him going into the courthouse, so it's a little mysterious how he got in. As of this moment, our reporters are still digesting and writing what he said. But I'd stress again, as I think I have, or I'd stress that he is just a witness in this case. He's not on trial himself. And his people have said that he has been trying to cooperate, and this is kind of an example of that.

马特，莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥作证了吗？他会作为Prisma Shell的审判的一部分作证吗？是的，他今天实际上出庭作证了。我们有一些记者在那里，试图捕捉他进出的情况。似乎没有人看到他进入法院，所以他是如何进来的还有点神秘。目前为止，我们的记者仍在消化和写他所说的话。但我想再次强调，他只是这个案件中的一个见证人。他本人并没有受到审判。他的团队表示他一直在努力配合，这算是一个例子。

Matt, can you tell me a little bit more about the sort of chronologically, I think of this as like the second piece of all of this, which was when Trump was in office, and there were allegedly lobbying efforts being undertaken to return a dissident to China. Yeah, the dissident plot is a little hard to follow and sort of an offshoot of this, but it's germane to this case.

马特，你能告诉我更多关于这个事件的时间顺序吗？我认为这是其中第二个部分，当时特朗普执政，有传言说正在进行游说活动，将一个异见人士送回中国。是的，异见人士的情节有点难以理解并与此案相关，但它与这个案件有关。

So Jolo, by prosecutors telling, is looking to curry favor with China. And one of the ways he wants to do that is getting this guy, Wenji Guo, who's in the United States, sent back to China, because China wants to get their hands on him. But he needs cooperation from actual US administration officials. So by prosecutors telling he connects with Brody and Michelle to try to lobby the Trump administration to make this happen. They sign agreements where Brody is going to get a huge payout. If they make this happen, he's going to get paid either way. It ultimately doesn't end up happening. Guo is not returned to China. In fact, Guo is now himself charged in a separate case.

据检察官所说，Jolo试图讨好中国。他想要的其中一种方式就是让身处美国的郭文基送回中国，因为中国想要把他交付。但他需要美国政府官员的合作。所以，据检察官所说他联系了Brody和Michelle试图游说特朗普政府让此事发生。他们签订了协议，Brody将会获得巨额报酬。无论是否让此事发生，他都会得到报酬。最终，这件事情没有发生。郭没有被送回中国，事实上，郭现在本身也被控在一个单独的案件中。

Okay. So that's like a separate. But it's sort of relevant because prosecutors say that Michelle and Brody were acting as agents of a foreign government. And that is illegal. So that is one of the crimes that issue here. And where's Brody? Where is he fitting into this current statement? Brody right now, as I mentioned, has been pardoned for his involvement in this. But he could testify as a government witness about what occurred here.

好的，所以这就像是个独立的事情。但是这也很相关，因为检察官说Michelle和Brody是外国政府的代理人，这是非法的。所以这是这里所涉及的罪行之一。那么Brody在这个陈述中扮演什么角色呢？正如我之前提到的，Brody目前已经被赦免其参与这件事情的罪行。但他可以作为政府证人来证明这里发生了什么。

And all of these things, it's kind of important to note, there's no allegation that Trump did anything wrong, that Obama did anything wrong. This is by prosecutors telling Jolo using his money and other people like Brody and like Michelle to seek to influence these proceedings. But it ultimately ends up not really going anywhere.

所有这些事情，需要注意的是，没有指控说特朗普做错了什么，也没有指控说奥巴马做错了什么。这是由检察官告诉乔洛使用他的钱和像布罗迪和米歇尔这样的其他人来试图影响这些诉讼程序。但最终它没有真正取得任何进展。

And Prasm Michelle is also charged with witness tampering. What's that about? So the witness tampering is that he is alleged to have sort of sat on one of these people that he used as a straw donor to prevent them from cooperating with prosecutors investigation.

普拉斯姆·米歇尔也被指控涉嫌干预证人。那是什么意思？所谓的证人干预是指他被指控压制了其中一名被他当做筹款人的人，以防他们配合检察官的调查。

I mean Matt, I understand this is like so complex. It's a very tangled web right now of all these different elements. Like there's the straw donation element of it. And then there's this other element of trying to lean on the government and the White House to return a Chinese dissident and just generally like curry favor.

嗯，马特，我知道这很复杂。现在这些不同的因素非常棘手。比如有捐赠吸管的部分。还有一部分是试图依靠政府和白宫来送回一位中国异议人士，一般来说就是讨好他们。

I'm wondering beyond the like spectacle of all this with those elements and then all of these celebrities and high profile like political figures all kind of wrapped up into this somehow one way or the other. Why is the Justice Department spending so many resources on trying this case? Like why does this trial matter beyond just the spectacle of it all?

我在想，除了所有这些元素的壮观场面以及所有这些名人和高调的政治人物都在某种程度上被卷入其中之外，这个案子还有什么意义？为什么司法部要花费这么多资源来审理这个案子？除了所有这一切的壮观场面之外，为什么这次审判还有重要意义？

So I think at its core what this case is about and what all the offshoot cases are about is the Justice Department trying to hold people accountable for what they describe as this massive theft from the Malaysian people. You know, that's what started this all. And everything else is sort of flows from that. And the Justice Department feels like they have uninterest in doing that, particularly when US citizens are involved. Like some people I think when this case first came around years ago sort of questioned what is the Justice Department doing? Isn't this between Malaysia and its prosecutors? The Justice Department says well no, we have kind of a responsibility to police when you know assets are pilfered from foreign governments, especially when they make their way into the US, which they just Department said what's happening. So that's what I think they're overriding interest is. And considering to that the Justice Department really doesn't like it when you try to shut down their investigations. And in this case that's what they alleged was happening. That there was somebody who was willing to spend a lot of money not on lawyers who are going to stand up and be aggressive in court, but on people who are going to take nefarious routes to try to shut down an investigation. So the Justice Department is also has a vested interest in trying to stop that sort of conduct. They would argue.

我认为，这个案件的核心以及所有相关的案件，都是司法部门试图让人们对他们所描述的大规模偷窃马来西亚人民行为负责。你知道，这是引发这一切的原因。其他所有的事情都是从这个问题中展开的。司法部门感觉对此有着无比浓厚的兴趣，尤其是在美国公民涉及其中的时候。当这个案件第一次出现多年前，有些人就开始质疑司法部门在干什么，难道这不是马来西亚和他们的检察官之间的问题吗？但司法部门表示，当外国政府的财产被窃取，尤其是这些财产流向美国时，他们有责任对此进行监管。这就是司法部门所说的正在发生的事情。因此，我认为他们的主要兴趣是这个。并且，考虑到司法部门确实不喜欢你试图关闭他们的调查，而在这个案件中，他们声称正在发生这种情况。有些人愿意花大量的钱，不是用在能够在法庭上表现得激进的律师身上，而是用在那些采取险恶手段试图关闭调查的人身上。因此，司法部门也有着努力阻止这种行为的利益，他们会这样争辩。

So Matt, what happens next now that I'm not able to just spend every day sitting in a jury box watching this trial unfold, what should we all be watching out for?

那么，Matt，现在我不能每天坐在陪审团席上看着这场审判展开了，接下来会发生什么呢？我们应该注意什么？

So this is going to be a week's long trial. One of the things we're looking for just as a matter of public curiosity is what if any celebrities show up and testify in this.

这个将会是一个长达一周的庭审。作为公众的好奇心，我们将会寻找一些名人是否会出现并作证。

At the end of the day, the kind of significant thing we're looking for, which again is weeks from now, it's like can the government hold someone accountable for what they allow? So this is what the alleged is all this wrongdoing at trial.

说到底，我们在寻找的重要问题，就是几周后，政府是否能够对他们所允许的事情负责？所以这就是所谓的指控在审判中所涉及的所有错误行为。

In this case, what we have seen time and time again is people have just pleaded guilty. The government never has really been forced to go into court and prove some of the stuff.

在这种情况下，我们一次又一次地看到的是人们只是认罪了。政府从来没有真正被迫去法庭证明一些事情。

And these are white collar kind of complicated crimes. You can tell it's been a little bit challenging even for me to explain. And prosecutors will be challenged to explain that to a jury, a jury that you apparently could have served on.

这些是比较复杂的白领犯罪。你可以看出我的解释稍稍有些困难。检察官要向陪审团解释这些事情，而你似乎已经可以成为陪审团的一员了。

Well, thanks for joining us to unpack it for me. And I will be watching it attentively and I appreciate you satisfying all my curiosity about it.

谢谢你加入我们帮我解释它。我会仔细观看，感谢你满足了我所有的好奇心。

Yeah, thanks for having me. Matt Sapatoski is a criminal justice editor at the post.

是的，谢谢你邀请我。Matt Sapatoski是《邮报》的刑法编辑。

That's it for post reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by Eliza Dennis. It was mixed by Sean Carter and edited by Reena Flores.

本期的报告就到这里了。感谢您的聆听。今天的节目由伊莱扎·丹尼斯制作，肖恩·卡特混音，莉娜·弗洛雷斯编辑。

A special shout out to jury duty. It is a civic duty show up. You never know what you're going to hear.

给陪审团召唤一个特别的赞。这是一项公民责任，要出席。你永远不知道你会听到什么。

If you want to show your support for my co-host, Martin Powers, you can actually do that this month. On April 13th, Martin will be live in conversation with best-selling author Curtis Sitinfeld. Her latest novel is Romantic Comedy. And it tells the story of a late-night comedy writer's search for love. You can get tickets for the event in Washington, DC at 6thandi.org. We'll also have more details in our show notes. We hope to see you there. And there will be a live stream option in case you cannot make it to DC.

如果你想显示你对我的共同主持人马丁·鲍尔斯的支持，这个月你实际上可以这样做。4月13日，马丁将与畅销作者柯蒂斯·西滕费尔德进行现场谈话。她的最新小说是《浪漫喜剧》，讲述了一个深夜喜剧编剧寻找爱情的故事。你可以在6thandi.org网站上购买在华盛顿特区举行的活动门票。我们的节目注释中也会有更多细节。希望能在那里见到你。如果你不能来到华盛顿特区，还有现场直播选项。

I'm Elahe Zadi. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

我是Elahe Zadi。我们明天会回来，为你带来更多《华盛顿邮报》的故事。