Bill Simmons on podcasts, celebrity interviews and life at Spotify
发布时间 2022-06-15 04:16:08 来源
摘要
The Bill Simmons Podcast is, by its own description, "the most downloaded sports podcast of all time." This week, it hits its 1,000th episode.
Bill Simmons began his career as a Boston sportswriter and went on to found ESPN's sports and pop culture blog Grantland. After ESPN shut down the site, Simmons started the Ringer — which he sold to Spotify in 2020.
In this wide-ranging conversation, Recode’s Peter Kafka talks to Simmons about how he became a podcasting pioneer, and when he realized nerditry about the NBA and Game of Thrones could both live under the same roof. Simmons also reflects on what he learned from his time as an employee of The Walt Disney Corporation and how things are different at Spotify. Plus, he reveals the number one dream guest he’d love to have on his show.
Featuring: Bill Simmons (@BillSimmons), Founder of The Ringer
Host: Peter Kafka (@pkafka), Senior Editor at Recode
More to explore: Subscribe for free to Recode Media, Peter Kafka, one of the media industry's most acclaimed reporters, talks to business titans, journalists, comedians, and more to get their take on today's media landscape.
About Recode by Vox: Recode by Vox helps you understand how tech is changing the world — and changing us.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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The Supreme Court is here in a case this week about art and who gets to remix an artistic idea. But this fight is not new. Olivia Rodrigo was not doing anything different from Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci. Honestly, those guys were looking around seeing what other people did at the time in Florence and Rome and wherever and copying some of it. Let's go to Poppy right law and you, this week on Intuit Vultures Pop Culture Podcast.
最高法院本周在一起关于艺术和谁有权重组艺术创意的案件中出现了。但这场争斗不是新的。奥利维亚·罗德里戈与米开朗基罗或达芬奇并没有什么不同。说实话，那些人当时在佛罗伦萨、罗马和其他地方看着别人做的事情，把其中一些复制了过来。这周我们在《知道天鹅绒猛禽流行文化博客》的 Poppy right law 和你一起探讨。
This is Rico at Media of Peter Kafka. That is me. I am talking to someone who's done a lot of podcasting himself. His name is Bill Simmons. You ran? Co-founded. Who founded the Ringer, which is now sold to Spotify. Welcome Bill. Good to be here. Long time no talk.
这里是彼得·卡夫卡的媒体，我是里科。那是我。我正在和一个做了很多播客的人聊天。他的名字叫比尔·西蒙斯。你主持了吗？是共同创办。他创建了“响声”，现在已经被Spotify收购了。欢迎比尔。很高兴来到这里。好久不聊了。
We check in every couple of years because I'm curious about you and your career and you've moved from being an internet writer to a podcast guy and now beyond. We're just doing the math. You've done a thousand podcasts of the main podcast. It's 2015. We started the ranger. Yeah. We launched October 1st was the first day I could start doing ranger stuff after my ESPN deal expired and that was when the BS podcast launched.
我们每隔几年会联系一下，因为我很好奇你和你的职业生涯，而且你已经从互联网作家变成了播客人，现在更进一步了。我们只是在算账。你已经做了一千个主要播客。现在是2015年了。我们开始了《游侠》。是的。我们在10月1日推出了它，那是在我的ESPN合约到期后，我可以开始做《游侠》的事情，那也是BS播客推出的时候。
Yeah, initially, and I was trying to juggle it because I had the HBO show going. We were probably once or twice a week early, but then after the HBO show, it really went to three times a week from the beginning of 2017 on. Like I said, we talk every couple of years and I was going back and looking at our old conversations and the theme for a lot of them was like, is podcasting going to be a thing or podcasting the thing, but is it going to be a business or it should be a business, but it's not a business yet.
是的，起初我很难平衡时间，因为我还在拍HBO节目。最初一两个星期我们可能只见一两次面，但在HBO节目结束后，从2017年开始，我们就每周会面三次。就像我说的，我们每隔几年才联系一次，我回看了我们以前的谈话，主题很多都是关于播客是否会成为一种事物或者说播客应该成为一种商业，但目前它还不是一个商业。
You sold your company for about $200 million a couple of years ago. So it seems like it's a business to 50 to 50. Yeah. For some reason that number keeps getting reported around, but yeah, it was okay. It's in filings. I can look it up again. I remember seeing you in 2019 right after Gimlet had sold a Spotify for 230. I think the number was around 200 and you said, that's not a real number, right? And I'm like, yeah, no, it's a real number.
几年前你以大约两亿美元的价格出售了自己的公司。所以似乎是50-50的生意。是的，为某些原因，这个数字一直被报道，但是是可以的。它在文件中。我可以再次查找。我记得在2019年见过你，就在Gimlet把Spotify出售后，价格是230。我想那时数字大约在200左右，你说那不是真的数字，对吧？然后我回答，是的，确实是个真实的数字。
No, no, no, that's got to be like when you pay a quarterback, $100 million, but only 10 of it's guaranteed and I could see the gears going in your head. And then a year later, you sold, I want to ask you about that process. But first I want to just talk about podcasting. Yeah. You started this, I think back in 2007 when you were doing it.
不，不，不，那就像是支付一位四分卫1亿美元，但只有10%是保证的，我可以看到你脑子里转动的齿轮。然后一年后，你卖了，我想询问你那个过程。但首先我想谈论播客。是的，我想回到2007年当你开始做播客。
Yeah, it was May 2007 and it was just it seemed more like radio on demand. I didn't really understand what a podcast was, but I remember, I mean, we have a couple interviews from back then where I'm glad they exist because I, we've felt pretty strong when we launched Grantland in 2011. Podcasts are going to be a big piece of it.
是的，那是在2007年5月，感觉更像是按需广播。我其实不是很了解什么是播客，但我还记得，我们那时进行了几次采访，我很高兴它们存在，因为当我们在2011年推出Grantland时，我们就已经感到播客会成为其中一个重要组成部分了。
And we felt, I felt like I had had enough success with mine at that point that I really felt like it could be a huge asset for kind of this digital multimedia site we're trying to build, right? And ESPN didn't recognize that, which ironically became, I think, a big source of the attention with us. Like we talked about in the past, I'll keep referencing old stuff, but it takes a while for the media business advertisers to catch on the sort of where people are going. You're seeing that right now with TikTok, which is huge, but like severely undermonitized.
我们感觉，我感觉我在那个时候已经取得了足够的成功，我真的觉得它可能是我们正在构建的数字多媒体网站的重要资产，对吧？然而ESPN并没有意识到这一点，具有讽刺意味的是，我认为这成为了引起我们注意的一个很大的原因。就像我们之前讨论过的那样，我会一直参考旧的东西，但是媒体业务和广告主要花费一段时间来了解人们的趋势。你现在可以看到TikTok，它已经很火了，但是收益远远没有被充分利用。
Before it became a business, when did you figure out, oh, this is a thing that a lot of people are listening to and a lot more people are going to listen to. And this is meaningful to me and my audience. You know, the first two years, I would say it was more like fun and just an extra thing because I was at that stage, right? I would try everything. I was always trying to add something, you know, and I think 2006, I signed up for it.
在它变成一个商业之前，你是什么时候意识到很多人正在听它而且会有更多的人会听它，而这对我和我的听众来说是有意义的。我会说前两年更多的是为了好玩和额外的事情，因为我那时还处于那个阶段。我会尝试一切，总是努力添加一些东西。我想到2006年的时候就开始了。
I signed a new deal at the beginning of 2007 and I was really motivated to try to branch out beyond just my column. And I was really focused on what else can I add, what else can I do, what chances can I take things like that. And the podcast thing always seemed like just a fun wrinkle because people could hear me. It was on demand. I like the technology of it.
在2007年初，我签了一份新合同，非常有动力尝试跳出我的专栏去拓展其他领域。我真的很专注于能添加什么、能做什么、能把握哪些机会等等。播客似乎只是一个有趣的小细节，因为人们可以听到我的声音。它是按需的，我喜欢这种技术。
But it wasn't really till 09. I think people's celebrity started asking to come on. People started mentioning to me on the street that, you know, they instead of saying love the column, they would say love the podcast. I thought that was interesting. And then I've talked about this before, but there was this moment. It was some all-star weekend in Phoenix.
直到09年，名人才真正开始邀请来参加节目。人们在街上提到节目，开始说喜欢播客，而不是专栏。我觉得这很有趣。然后我之前也谈过这件事，有一个时刻很特别。那是在凤凰城的全明星周末。
I can't remember what year it was, but this jogger was jogging back to hotel and I was waiting for the Uber and he was pointing to his headphones. He was like, I'm listening to you. It just felt like something was happening. And the more I talked to people about how they consumed it, I realized like, it was like on their commutes. It was when they were working out, when they were jogging, when they were at work and just they put something on.
我记不得是哪一年了，但有一位慢跑者正跑回酒店，而我则在等待 Uber，他指了指自己的耳机。他说：“我在聆听你的节目。”那个时候感觉好像发生了一些事情。通过和人们谈论他们如何听取这个节目，我意识到他们通常在通勤、运动、工作时都会听，只是随意按下播放键罢了。
And that was when I thought, all right, this is bigger than just radio on demand.
那时候，我想到了这个问题：嗯，这可不仅仅是一张点播广播的大网。
How is your approach to what the podcast is and how you do it and who you're making for change, if at all?
你对这个播客的理解是什么？你是如何做的，你是为谁做的？如果有必要，可以改说得更自然一些。
I think it's become a little more reactive.
我觉得它变得更加积极了一些。
I think I look back at the ESPN stuff and the celebrities were a huge advantage for me back then because there weren't a lot of podcasts.
我觉得回顾 ESPN 的节目和名人们对我当时来说是一个很大的优势，因为当时没有太多的播客。
The people, I was really just competing against Mark Marin and that was it.
我只是和马克·马林在竞争，其他人不重要。
We were always like, it was always me and him getting the best guess.
我们总是这样的，总是我和他猜得最准。
If he wanted a long forum interview, it was someone interesting.
如果他想要一份长篇的论坛采访，那么这人肯定很有趣。
Yeah.
是啊。
You go to your.
你去你的地方。
And we were also getting people, it was like the first time, it was like being on a first date with people.
我们也在接待人们，感觉就像第一次约会一样，和人们相处非常新鲜。
They had like never done a podcast before.
他们好像从未做过播客。
So over and over again, I would have these people who'd come on and we would just have these wide range of conversations and they just loved it.
所以一遍又一遍，这些人会来，我们会有各种各样的对话，他们真的很喜欢。
I remember even, and that was going even near the end of the ESPN.
我还记得，那是在 ESPN 结束前的日子里。
I remember like in 2015, we're at South by Southwest and we just had a bunch of guests coming on for, you know, six, seven straight hours and one of the people was Brian Gray's or the Hollywood producer and he didn't know what was going on.
我记得在2015年，我们在南西南部参加了活动，接待了一大堆客人，持续了六七个小时，其中之一就是好莱坞制片人布莱恩·格雷，但他并不知道发生了什么。
He's like, what is this? Is it we're doing an interview or is there people going to hear this?
他说：“这是什么啊？我们是在做采访还是会有人听到这个？”
So we did it and talked about his whole career.
所以我们就这样做了，并谈论了他的整个职业生涯。
I didn't have notes.
我没有笔记。
I'm going through all his movies and afterwards he was just like, that was so much fun.
我正在浏览他所有的电影，然后他就像：那太有趣了。
I think that's gone in 2022.
我觉得那在2022年就消失了。
I feel like anybody who is ever going to be a guest on a podcast would have done a podcast by now.
我觉得，任何一个将要成为播客嘉宾的人现在肯定已经制作过自己的播客了。
You'll still have like, like I went to Sandler's office a couple weeks ago and I did one with him.
你还会有“喜欢”，就像几个星期前我去了桑德勒的办公室并和他一起工作一样。
He keeps a very low profile, right?
他非常低调，是吧？
He's only been I think on a couple pods and we were able to have like kind of an old school conversation about his career and comedy where things are going.
他只在几个播客中露面过，我们能够就他的职业和喜剧方向进行一种传统的对话。
But now I feel like for how my pod has changed, I think the guest piece is probably a little less interesting because they're so available on so many different pods and what's more interesting now is something just happened.
但是现在我感觉我的播客发生了变化，我认为嘉宾的节目可能会稍微没那么有趣，因为他们在很多不同的播客上都很容易找到，现在更有趣的是刚刚发生的一件事情。
How can we react?
我们该怎么反应呢？
Can I have the best people on?
我可以请最好的人来吗？
Can I have the smartest take?
能给我最聪明的看法吗？
You know, just being in the mix more versus I mean, remember, Sal and I on Mondays we used to tape on that and if I'll put it, it would guess the lines we would do Monday at like, I don't know, one o'clock in the afternoon.
你知道的，只是更多地参与其中，相对于我是说，记得吗，Sal和我之前总是在周一录制，如果我把它放进去，它会猜测我们周一下午一点左右会做哪些节目。
Like the Sunday games that happened almost 24 hours before and we didn't care.
就像前一天发生的星期日比赛一样，我们并不在意。
But now you can't do that.
但是现在你不能这样做。
So now the Celtics play and you get on that night and record an hour or two hours or more of analysis of the game that goes up almost right away.
所以，现在凯尔特人队比赛，当晚你录制一两个小时或更多的比赛分析，几乎马上传上来。
Yeah, I mean, my wife doesn't love it.
是啊，我的妻子不太喜欢它。
But you know, it's you want to be in the mix.
但是你知道，你想要参与进来。
I think things move so fast now and that's one of the things that has changed since 070809 is just the speed that people react and consume.
我觉得现在的事情发展得非常快，这就是自从 070809 以来发生变化的其中一个方面，人们反应和消耗的速度变快了。
And that's a big thing we think about with the ringer is being there in the moment.
我们认为，环形铃铛的重要意义在于它能够让我们随时随地在场。
And I don't know if I've told this story, but we had this seminal moment.
我不知道是否告诉过此故事，但我们曾经经历过这个重大时刻。
It was the the day Kyry Irving got traded to the Celtics.
Kyry Irving被交易到凯尔特人的那一天。
We were having an MBA meeting at the office and it was in LA and we flew all of our MBA people there and we were actually just meeting and spitballing for the season and spitballing ideas.
我们在办公室开了一个MBA会议，地点在洛杉矶，我们把所有的MBA人员都飞到那里参加了会议，并且我们正在讨论本季度的计划和想法。
And then the trade happened and the way we reacted, it felt like a moment for us where we had a couple people ran off to write quick pieces for the website, right?
然后交易发生了，我们的反应让我们觉得这是我们其中的一个时刻，我们有几个人跑去为网站写快速片段，对吧？
I went to do an instant reaction pod that we filmed and then we had I think somebody else was doing another pod.
我去录制了一个即时反应节目，然后我们还有另一个人在录另一个节目。
And within like three, four hours, we had covered it in a couple different ways.
大约三到四个小时内，我们采用了几种不同的方式来解决这个问题。
And I think that we all looked at each other and was like, this is kind of what our site is.
我觉得我们都相互看着，就像说，这就是我们网站的特色。
Because you know, we spent probably two years trying to figure out how is this site different than Grantland and also for our audience, our audience was trying to figure out why I love Grantland.
因为你知道，我们花了大约两年的时间来弄清楚这个网站与 Grantland 有什么不同，而且对于我们的观众来说，他们也一直在思考为什么我喜欢 Grantland。
Why would I like this?
我为什么会喜欢这个呢？
You've told me I should like this.
你告诉我我应该喜欢这个。
So even though the internet, a lot of it's about on demand and get it when you want it on your own time and podcasts, especially at meaningful listen to stuff, I do, you know, six months after I recorded, I'm sure this is for you.
因此，尽管互联网上有很多关于随需而得、在你自己的时间里获取信息的东西，尤其是那些有意义的播客，我会听到一些六个月前录制的内容，我相信这也适用于你。
You like the idea of almost closer to like old time TV and radio where it's this thing just happened, we're going to talk to you about it.
你喜欢几乎更接近旧时代的电视和收音机的想法，就像一些事情刚刚发生了，我们要对你谈谈它。
For some of the stuff, I think we have a good mix of everything, right?
对于一些东西，我认为我们有一个很好的混合，对吧？
Like we talk a lot about stuff that podcast that can live on and be listened to much later.
我们经常聊一些关于播客的话题，这些播客可以长期保存并在以后听取。
That's why the rewatchables I think is probably our most successful library podcast people.
这就是为什么我认为《可重复观看》可能是我们最成功的库播客。
That's why you're literally talking about old movies.
这就是为什么你在字面上谈论旧电影。
Right.
没问题。
And people can go back and, you know, we might get a new fan for a rewatchables pod and they might be like, all right, I want more.
人们可以回来，你知道的，我们可能会为了重温可观性而获得新粉丝，他们可能会说：“好的，我想要更多。”
What else have they done?
他们还做了什么别的事情？
Well, we've done 250 movies at this point.
嗯，到目前为止我们已经拍摄了250部电影。
And it's like your favorite movies is the Shawshank Redemption Great.
就像你最喜欢的电影是《肖申克的救赎》。这部电影很棒。
We did that in September, 2002.
我们是在2002年9月做的。
So I think having a mix of really smart high-end stuff, ringer versus a good example, right?
所以我觉得有一些非常聪明的高端产品和一些过硬的例子混合在一起是很好的选择，是吧？
I'm really proud of because I felt like we were about a year earlier than everybody else, how we were thinking about it.
我真的很自豪，因为我觉得我们比其他人早大约一年开始思考这件事情，这让我感到非常骄傲。
Explain what that is to people who haven't listened to it.
请向没听过它的人解释这是什么。
So ringer versus a nerd culture podcast, right? It's covering Marvel, it's covering Star Wars, it's covering Stranger Things, stuff like that.
那么，是关于虚荣心与书呆子文化的播客对吗？它覆盖了漫威、星球大战、奇怪的事情等方面。
And you go back to the Grandland days, Grandland was sports and pop culture thrown together, which in 2011 people were like, what the fuck is this? Why are you going to do pop culture if it's a sports?
回到Grandland时代，Grandland是体育和流行文化混在一起的，2011年的人们会说，这是什么？为什么要把流行文化和体育混在一起？
Why is this on ESPN? We took so much shit for that the first year.
为什么这是在ESPN上播放的？我们在第一年承受了如此多的狗屎。
The ringer was a little more easier to do, but I think pop culture has expanded in a way that we looked at it how we evolved as, I swear this is going to tie back to ringer versus how we evolved is you're trying to cover everything and you realize you can't cover everything.
"Ringer" 这个项目比较容易完成，但我认为流行文化已经以一种我们所演变的方式扩展了。我发誓这将与 "ringer" 有关。我们所演变的方式是，你试图涵盖所有的东西，但你会意识到你不能覆盖一切。
So by about, I would say, 2019, 2020, we started to gravitate toward what are we the best at, what are the pieces of turf that we can either be the best at or one of the best at.
到大约2019年或2020年左右，我们开始追求自己擅长的领域，寻找能够让我们成为最佳或者其中之一的领域。
And for us, it was basketball and it was football. It was movies and music and TV.
对我们来说，篮球和足球是我们的运动项目。电影、音乐和电视是我们的娱乐方式。
And then, you know, special one off stuff with, which is really smart people talking about something that they had real expertise in.
然后，你知道的，特别的独特内容，就是真正专业的人们谈论他们真正擅长的事情。
And that, that was kind of became what we are, you know, and I think for ringer versus, we were looking at pop culture.
那个，那个就成了我们现在的状态，你知道的，我觉得对于Ringer Versus而言，我们在关注流行文化。
We had binge mode, which was the biggest game of thrones podcast, right? And that was a pop culture podcast, but it was a little more than that.
我们有一个非常受欢迎的“狂欢模式”播客节目，它是最受欢迎的《权力的游戏》节目之一，这是一个流行文化播客节目，但它不仅仅是这样。
It was kind of represented what we wanted the ringer to be, which was like the smartest people at the bar, deep dive expertise.
它有点代表了我们想要的那个铃声，就是酒吧里最聪明的人，深入研究专业知识。
And that was literally going over every episode of, of, of Game of Thrones.
那就是逐一回顾《权力的游戏》每一集，真的是一集不落。
Every episode of Game of Thrones obsessively with, with Jason and Mallory, who were just obsessed with the show and were the biggest experts of the world on it.
Jason和Mallory是Game of Thrones的狂热粉丝，他们对每一集都非常着迷，并且是全世界最专业的专家。
And our feeling was, which you would think people would say, don't do that. No one wants to sit through and listen to 70 podcasts about a TV show.
我们的感受是，你会认为人们会这么说，不要这样做。没有人想要坐下来听70个关于一部电视节目的播客。
Right, but we knew, we knew that, first of all, we knew that show for us was like the NBA.
是的，但是我们知道，我们知道，首先，我们知道对我们来说那个节目就像NBA一样重要。
And we knew that people not only wanted to learn more about the shows, the new episodes, but they wanted to go back, rewatch the episodes with a better understanding what happened.
我们知道人们不仅想要了解更多关于节目和新的剧集，而且他们也想回去重新观看这些剧集，以更好地理解发生了什么。
So the ringer versus, we saw this nerd culture thing. It's like a vertical for us, basically.
那么铃声对战，我们看到了这个呆板文化的东西。对我们来说，基本上就像是一个垂直领域。
It was more than pop culture. It didn't just fit in a TV and movies.
它不仅仅是流行文化，而且不仅适用于电视和电影。
It was actually its own universe. And that's what we try to create with that podcast where it's like every time there's a Marvel movie, every time there's a Star Wars movie or show, anytime there's a new stranger thanks season, whatever, we are going to be reacting to that.
实际上，它是一个独立的宇宙。这就是我们试图通过这个播客创造的宇宙，每当有漫威电影、星球大战电影或节目、新的怪奇物语季节等等，我们都会对此做出反应。
We are going to have the best deep dive stuff.
我们将拥有最好的深潜设备。
So you look at like something like, I don't pick a Marvel movie with the Midnight Boys, Vanna Charles.
所以你看起来像是不会选择含有Midnight Boys、Vanna Charles的漫威电影。
They'll watch the movie. They're going to do the instant reaction. I just watched it. This is what happened.
他们会看电影。他们要进行瞬间反应。我刚刚看完了。这就是发生的事情。
And then we'll have the deeper dive pod later in the week with Mallory and Joanna.
然后在这个星期晚些时候，我们将和Mallory和Joanna一起进行更深入的潜水。
And that's the one where they just go all in on this stuff.
那个就是他们全力投入的地方。
So we have something for everybody.
那么我们有适合每个人的东西。
Now, I think to me, that's what we did with that podcast is a good example of how we think about stuff.
现在，我认为对我来说，那个播客是我们思考事物的好例子。
How much that is instinct versus we're looking at numbers and this is performing really well.
这有多少是本能行为，有多少是我们在看数据并且这表现非常出色所导致的？
Let's do a lot more of that. And we thought this was going to work, but turns out there's no audience for this show where that movie is.
我们再多做这种事情吧。我们以为这会有用的，但事实证明那个电影所在的节目没有观众。
Let's quit it.
我们不做了吧。
I would say it's like 90% instinct.
我觉得大概有90%来自本能。
We have instinct and feel because we have this advantage.
我们有本能和感觉，因为我们拥有这个优势。
And a lot of it stems from the site, from Grantland and then the Ringer.
很多源于那个网站，源于Grantland，然后源于The Ringer。
What do people care about?
人们关心什么？
And it's not just about TV ratings or whatever.
这不仅仅关乎电视收视率或其他方面。
It's you just have a general feel for people care about this. We should be there.
“你只是有一种一般的感觉，认为人们关心这件事。我们应该在那里。”
I think for us, we think about that a lot.
我觉得对于我们来说，我们经常思考这个问题。
We relaunched the Prestige TV podcast that we relaunch last year, which has been successful for us.
我们重新推出了去年推出的《Prestige TV》播客节目，这对我们来说非常成功。
One of the reasons we launched that was because we just felt like succession was a thing.
我们推出这个的原因之一是因为我们觉得继承是一件重要的事情。
It wasn't just like a good HBO show.
这不仅仅是一部好的 HBO 節目。
We felt like it was going to go up a level.
我们觉得它将要提升一个级别。
We could see it anecdotally with people we talked to, how it was being written about people catching up on it during the pandemic.
我们可以从我们与之交谈的人的生动故事中看到，他们在疫情期间追赶它的状态是如何被书写的。
And we knew season three was coming.
我们知道第三季要来了。
And to us, that was that we looked at it the same way as we would like the NFL draft or the NBA playoffs or any of that stuff is we need to be there.
对我们来说，我们认为这与NFL选秀、NBA季后赛或任何其他类似的活动一样重要，我们需要参与其中。
So how are we going to be there?
那么我们要怎么去那里呢？
Well, we need to feed.
嗯，我们需要进食。
We need to react to the episodes.
我们需要对这些事件做出反应。
We need to go back over old episodes.
我们需要重新回顾过去的剧集。
We need deep dive stuff in the middle of the week.
我们需要在一周的中期进行深入研究的工作。
And we just need to be all in on the show.
我们只需要全力以赴地投入表演中。
But it's not a one to one with audience, right?
但这不是一对一的观众，对吧？
Because there's, I talked about this whole time, like Big Bang Theory when it was on, was the biggest thing on TV.
因为有这个，我一直在谈论它，就像《生活大爆炸》播出时一样，成为了电视上最受关注的大事件。
And no one ever talked about it in the world that I would spend online.
世界上从来没有人谈论过我会在网上度过的时间。
You guys don't, I don't think devoted any time to it. Yellowstone. Yeah, that's fair. Is this huge show? I think you guys don't have a lot of this stuff. We did yellowstone. But you're not blowing it out. It's got a much bigger audience than succession. You guys spend way more time on succession. It seems like that's part, just your personal interest and part, like there's an audience that will respond to it and maybe won't free Yellowstone.
你们似乎没有花太多时间在它上面，黄石公园。是个很受欢迎的节目吗？我觉得你们没太多这种类型的节目。我们看过黄石公园。但是你们没有过多地讨论它。它的观众比《继承者们》要多得多。你们在《继承者们》上花费了更多的时间。看起来这一部分是你们的个人喜好，另外一部分是因为有些观众会喜欢它，而不是黄石公园。
Well, it's a huge show. I mean, that always helps. It was like, I don't know, probably 15 million by the time everybody caught up on it. But it also, it was the most fun show to talk about, you know, and I think that one of the things that pumps us out, like we were just talking about this was Stranger Things. And I think Netflix has made such a mistake.
嗯，这是一场巨大的演出。我的意思是，这总是有帮助的。大家都跟上了，大概有1500万人看了吧。但这也是最有趣的演出，你知道，我们最喜欢谈论的就是这样的演出。我们刚刚也在谈论这个演出《怪奇物语》。我认为Netflix犯了一个大错误。
The bench model is fine with certain shows. Like if it's outer banks, I get it. My daughter's going to watch, I want to watch all the outer banks in a row. That's not like a great show, but it's a fun show and you just want to keep going. Stranger Things, they blew it because, you know, for us, if they had just put out two episodes and then one week after that, we would have gotten eight weeks of content discourse writing everything. You would have treated that show like it was the NBA playoffs.
板凳模式对某些节目来说非常适合。比如说《外围银行》，我明白。我女儿要看，我也想一口气看完所有的《外围银行》。虽然它不算是一部很棒的节目，但它是一部有趣的节目，你只想继续看下去。《怪奇物语》则搞砸了，因为如果他们只发布两集，然后再过一周发布一集，我们就可以得到八周的内容讨论和写作。你会像对待NBA季后赛一样对待这个节目。
And instead, it's gone in a week. I hear you guys say that all the time and I get it. And out of your self-interest, right, it makes sense. You'd like to have eight weeks of content instead of a week. I do wonder if, if, and Netflix obviously is rethinking a lot of what they're doing. I do think that maybe like their, their aims and your aims don't quite converge, right? Yes, you'd give them free publicity for eight weeks. But if they can satisfy every, my sons and middle school, everyone in his school watched it the first week, they're all totally happy. They watched it. I don't think they'd be any happier if they stretched it out over eight weeks. You would be.
相反地，一周后就没了。我听到你们经常这样说，我懂。从你们的自身利益出发，这是有道理的。你们想要有八周的内容而不仅仅是一周。不过我不禁想，Netflix正在重新思考他们正在做的很多事情。我觉得他们的目标和你们的目标可能并不会完全吻合，对吧？是的，你们会给他们八周的免费宣传。但是如果他们能让每个人都满意，比如我的儿子和他学校的中学生，他们在第一周就都看过了，而且完全开心。他们看过了，我觉得如果把它拖到八周，他们不会更开心。但你们会。
It's funny. I completely disagree. I think Netflix has so few kind of water cooler hits at this point for them to be able to stretch one out for eight weeks. Just look at the difference with succession. Look at a show like Winning Time. I think if Winning Time was a Netflix show and they just dropped it all at once, I think that show does. I think people, a lot of people would watch one episode or two and that would have been it. But because it was on every week, I know, I know people in my life who just gave it a second chance or a third chance, whatever. Stranger things. To me, it's like, can you own the narrative?
这很有趣。但我完全不同意。我认为Netflix现在很少有像"大水cooler型作品"，所以他们要把一个作品拖延八个星期太长了。只要看看和继承有什么不同就知道了。再看看《制胜之时》，如果它是Netflix的剧集，他们一次性播出，那么很多人可能只会看一两集就放弃了。但是，因为它每周播出一次，我认识的人中有些人会再给它一次或三次机会。对我来说，像是《怪奇物语》一样，你能拥有自己的叙事吗？
And for them, they're competing. It's all this other stuff that's coming out, right? Like within a week, Top Guns in there too, and you know, you're competing for eyeballs and attention. And I think that shows specifically with all the theories and the conspiracy stuff and all the stuff that comes out, you almost need a week to digest each episode and be like, what does this mean? Where is this going? That's part of experiencing the show. I just think they blew it.
对于他们来说，他们正在竞争。所有这些其他的东西都出来了，对吧？就在一周里，顶级枪手也在那里，你知道，你正在竞争眼球和注意力。我认为这在所有的理论、阴谋理论和所有出现的东西上都表现出来了，你几乎需要一周去消化每一集，然后想想这意味着什么？这往哪里走？这是体验这个节目的一部分。我只是觉得他们搞砸了。
I want to ask you more about the show you're making. Has your approach to sort of how you talk, what you talk about changed? When you started podcasting, you were like, kind of well known internet guy for nerds like me. Obviously, your profile's gotten bigger and bigger. It seems like you're kind of well known. Come on, I was doing better than that. You were well known. But you're well known to have your own podcast, right?
我想问你关于你正在制作的节目的更多问题。你关于谈话的方式和谈论的话题的方法是否改变了？当你开始播客时，像我这样的书呆子已经知道你了。显然，你的知名度越来越大。你好像很有名。得了吧，我比你做得更好。你是有名的。但你很有名，因为你有自己的播客，对吧？
But like, you weren't Bill Simmons in 2022. It seems like now you're much more conscious of the fact that stuff you say is going to get picked up that people are going to respond to. Is that an inhibitor for you? Like, I don't want to say this. This is going to get blown out of proportion. No, it's just something you're conscious of. To me, it's like, we talk about this with some of our talent. It's the price of having a platform in 2022, right?
嗯，你在2022年不是比尔·西蒙斯。现在你好像更清楚你所说的话会被注意到，会有人做出回应。这会制约你吗？比如，我不想说这个，这会被夸大解读。不，这只是你意识到的一些事情。对我来说，就像我们与一些才华横溢的人才谈论过的那样，这是2022年拥有平台的代价对吧？
You have to be ready for, like, if you're an MBA writer and you say, I don't know, I heard one of the Suns had COVID before game seven, which was a story that was reported, right? It was a story. All the MBA people knew, but everybody was kind of afraid to be the first one to write it. But everybody knew there was some sort of COVID thing with the Suns. Throw that on a podcast. It's going to get aggregated. You know, and I think for us to balance, and I'm not complaining about this. This is just a reality.
你要做好准备，比如说，如果你是一名MBA作者，你说，我不知道，在第七场比赛前有一个太阳队的球员被感染了COVID，这是一篇报道的故事，对吧？这是一篇报道。所有MBA的人都知道，但每个人都有点害怕成为第一个写下这个故事的人。但所有人都知道太阳队有某种程度的COVID感染。把它放在播客里。它将被整合。你知道，我认为为了平衡，我并不抱怨这一点。这只是现实。
I mean, being aggregated is good for you, right? It's directing more people to you. Yeah. Nah. Sometimes yes and no. It depends. Like, are they taking stuff at a context that you said? I think podcasts have a specific nuance. So I think our goal with the podcast is we want to sound conversational. We want, like, this podcast right now, we want it to sound like you and I are sitting at some, I don't know, some restaurant and we're shooting the shit about. That's, that would ultimately be your goal, right?
我是说，被聚集起来对你来说是有好处的，对吧？它可以吸引更多人关注你。是的。不是的。有时候吧，要视情况而定。比如说，他们是不是曲解你说的话？我认为播客有其特殊的风格。因此，我们的目标是让播客听起来像是我们俩坐在某个餐厅里聊天一样。这样最终就是我们的目标，对吧？
Yep.
没错。
If we're talking basketball with two people that work for us and we're all about basketball, you want it to be conversational. You want to bounce back and forth. So you're going to lower your inhibitors a little bit.
如果我们和两个为我们工作的人谈论篮球，而我们都是对篮球痴迷的，你想让对话更自然轻松。你希望彼此之间有来有回。因此，你需要稍稍降低自己的防备心。
But I think the difference is, if you're going to throw stuff out on a podcast that actually might make news, you just have to think about it for a split second. But I also think with Zooms with Twitter, with everything else, I think people have this natural mechanism now that they'll at least hold on for a split second.
我认为不同之处在于，如果你要在播客中公开某些可能会成为新闻的内容，你只需花一点时间考虑一下。但我也认为，随着Zoom、Twitter和其他所有东西的出现，人们现在具有一种天然的机制，至少会停一下思考。
2008, 2009, you go back to those days, man, people, they were no repercussions or you didn't know about the repercussions really for anything. So you look back at some of the tweets from back then, all that. It's just, that stuff's out there and nobody realizes the screenshot air is coming.
2008年、2009年，回到那些日子，人们做了什么都没有后果，或者你真的不知道后果是什么。所以你回顾一下那个时期的一些推特，那些东西只是存在那里，没有人意识到截图的风险即将到来。
So you, like off the top of your head, I think, like say something about Jalen Green is a rookie for the right. Yeah, that was, that was the funniest thing. And yeah, and Drainmon, Drainmon Greens taking you on and Instagram, do you, is that funny to you? Is that awkward? Are you okay with that?
你呀，就像随口一说一样，我觉得你可以说一些关于贾伦·格林是一位新秀的话。是的，那是很有趣的。还有呢，德雷蒙·格林在Instagram上挑战你，你觉得那很好笑吗？还是觉得有些尴尬？你能接受吗？
That one was funny because I knew the facts were completely on my side. So and I, you know, when it's going to start snowballing, when somebody's, and in that case, it was the Houston fans, they're like, they're grabbing this, they're screaming, he's like, fuck Jalen Green. And it was like, all right, you can go back and listen to the conversation. It was really, we were trying to make each other laugh. I was talking about how much I love this guy, Herb Jones and New Orleans and how I voted for him over Jalen Green. I was like, fuck Jalen Green. And I knew the facts were on my side, but ultimately the best way for that to play out was I just had Jalen Green on my podcast because this is a good guy. I think he's really talented and we had a good conversation.
那个笑话真的很好笑，因为我知道这些事实完全站在我这边。当有人开始煽动情绪时，比如休斯顿球迷在那个例子里，他们像疯了一样，咆哮着骂：“他他妈的，杰伦·格林！”我们都知道这种情况会越来越严重，于是我们开始开玩笑，我说我是多么喜欢新奥尔良的赫伯·琼斯，而且我投票支持他，而不是杰伦·格林。我说：“他他妈的，杰伦·格林！”我知道我说的都是事实，但最终，最好的解决方式是我邀请杰伦·格林来我的播客上做客，因为他是个好人，我认为他真的很有才华。我们有过一次愉快的对话。
And, you know, I think, I think when the facts are on your side, it's better. I think when, if you say something, you know, that starts a new story that you just didn't intend it to happen that way, that's a little different.
嗯，你知道，我觉得，当事实站在你这一边时，会更好。我想，如果你说了些什么，开启了一个你不是有意这样发生的新故事，那就有点不同了。
There's a mode of that as you know, the stems from talk radio and then the internet's really expanded on that of stirring shit intentionally because you want attention. Do you ever feel yourself tending that way? Like, I'm going to, I'm going to piss somebody off. Watch this.
你知道，有一种模式，源于电台谈话，然后互联网真的扩大了这种故意搞事以引起注意的模式。你有没有感觉自己也有这种倾向？比如，我要气得某人起来。看着吧。如果必要的话，请改一下。
I like when it's quiet. Those are my favorite times because I've been doing this. And this is my third decade now as a national person. I'm just trying to do good stuff, trying to consistently be a little ahead of the curve and I like when nobody's talking. That's why I don't do a lot of interviews.
我很喜欢安静的时刻。对我来说，那是我最喜欢的时间，因为我一直在做这件事情。我已经作为一个国家的人员工作了30年了。我只是想做一些好的东西，始终保持一点领先，并且我喜欢没有人在说话的时候。这就是为什么我不做很多采访的原因。
I mean, we did one was last time we didn't interview. I don't know if I've done a real interview about like, how well the ringer's doing. I mean, that's tough. I just don't do that stuff.
我是说，上次我们没有采访过。我不知道自己是否进行了真正的采访，如关于铃声的表现。那很难。我就是不擅长这些。
I don't, I know if we're doing well. I have an inner circle. We talk all the time. We really care about this stuff. We really care about the quality of the work we're doing, who we're bringing in, the culture that, you know, that we've tried to build. And that's what we care about. I don't care what other people say about us.
我不知道我们做得怎么样。我有一个内部圈子，我们一直在交流，非常关心这些事情。我们真的在意我们所做工作的质量，我们引进了谁，我们试图打造的文化。这就是我们在意的。我不在意别人对我们说什么。
We write back after a word from these sponsors.
我们会在广告播出后再回信。
Well folks, here we are. Former President Donald Trump has been indicted by a Manhattan grand jury. I'm Pete Barara, the former US Attorney in Manhattan. My podcast Stay Tuned is about law, justice, power, and democracy.
嗨大家，我们来了。曾经的总统唐纳德·特朗普已经被曼哈顿大陪审团起诉了。我是彼得·巴拉拉，曼哈顿前美国检察官。我的播客Stay Tuned关注法律、正义、权力和民主。
Recently, I broke down the indictment with a group of former federal prosecutors who understand how the justice system really works. Joyce Vance, Barb McQuade, and Ellie Honeg. We discuss the questions on everyone's mind, like, Can you directly tie Donald Trump to the way these payments were booked and logged? Are prosecutors considering additional defendants or additional charges? Is this the kind of conduct that merits a charge of a former President of the United States?
最近，我和一群了解司法制度如何运作的前联邦检察官（Joyce Vance，Barb McQuade和Ellie Honeg）一起分析了这项指控。我们讨论了每个人都在想的问题，比如，你能否直接将唐纳德·特朗普与这些付款的记账和登记方式联系起来？检察官是否考虑了其他被告或其他指控？这种行为是否值得对美国前总统提出指控？
I think this is a serious crime preet, and I think it's one that I would charge. And where do we go from here? The presidency from prison, right? I mean, add to the crazy. Add to the crazy.
我认为这是一件严重的罪行，Preet，我认为我会起诉。那么，我们从这里去哪里呢？从监狱到总统职位，对吧？我的意思是，让事情更加疯狂吧。让一切更加疯狂。
To listen, just search Stay Tuned wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Thursday. Stay tuned.
要听节目，只需在你得到播客的任何地方搜索“Stay Tuned”。新的剧集每周四发布。请保持关注。
And we're back.
我们又回来了。
We've done TV a few times you were on ESPN back in the day. Then you had the HBO show. It's briefly lived. And he desired to scratch that edge again.
我们之前有过几次电视节目，你曾经在ESPN上亮过相。之后你有了HBO的节目，但是很短暂。现在他又有想再次挑战自己的欲望。
You're making a lot of TV for HBO. You're making movies and docks. Do you ever want to be on camera again?
你正在为HBO拍摄很多电视节目，你制作电影和记录片。你有想再次在镜头前露面的愿望吗？
The ringer film stuff has been, that's, I've spent a lot of time on that. And I do feel like we've created something really cool. Like I think we're a player in that space. From the TV side, I just didn't like it that much. I really like what we're doing with this stuff more.
The Ringer电影部分已经完成了，我花了很多时间在这上面。我确实觉得我们创造出了非常棒的东西。我觉得我们在这个领域里是一个有竞争力的选手。从电视方面来看，我就不是很喜欢。我更喜欢我们现在做的东西。
And I've had some offers and some feelers and things like that. I look back at what happened with the show.
我接到了一些报价和询问，还有一些类似的事情。我回顾了一下节目发生的事情。
And is your HBO show?
你的HBO节目是什么？
Yeah, there's a million things I would do differently. But ultimately, I went into that show with the mindset of these interviews I'm doing on my podcast are really hitting people love them. This should work as a TV show.
是的，有一百万件事我会做得不一样。但最终，我参加那个节目的心态是，我在播客里做的这些采访真的很受人们的喜爱。这应该能够成为一档电视节目。
But the reality is podcasts have replay shows like that. And by 2017, I realized it. Like, I remember I had Kevin Durin on the first time we did it in March. It was like probably like three four shows after my show got canceled. And we went to this restaurant. We just talked for like an hour and 20 minutes.
但实际上，播客有像这样的重播节目。到2017年，我意识到了这一点。比如，我记得第一次请凯文·杜兰（Kevin Durin）来参加我的节目是在三月份，那时我的节目已经取消了三四个节目了。我们去了这家餐厅，然后聊了一个小时20分钟。
And now a lot of players are doing stuff and it feels way more normal than it did. I think in 2017. Players have their own podcast. Yeah, players have their own pods. Players are popping on other pods, all that stuff.
现在很多球员都在做一些事情，感觉比2017年更正常了。球员们有自己的播客。是的，球员们有自己的播客。球员们也会在其他播客节目中出现，所有这些都很正常。
Back then, it didn't feel as normal to just have one of the best players in the world sit down for an hour and 20 minutes and just record it. And we ended up doing I think six.
当时，只让世界上最顶尖的球员坐下来录制一个小时20分钟的视频并不觉得很正常。最后我们录了六个视频。
But that first one, that was when I realized like this is just better than like we could have edited this because I had had him on my TV show. We did a really good segment.
但是，那个第一个例子是我意识到这样做比我们能够编辑更好的时候，因为我曾经在我的电视节目里邀请过他，并做了一个非常不错的环节。
Me, him and Nas. We had edited into I don't know 12 minutes. But we went for like 40 and the 40 raw minutes were better than the 12 edited minutes.
我、他和Nas，我们编辑了约12分钟。但是我们持续了约40分钟，那40分钟的生录比编辑后的12分钟更好。
So stuff like that that just made me think, what is the upside at this point of a TV interview show versus a podcast?
像这样的事情让我想，现在一个电视采访节目与一个播客相比有什么优势？
And I'm not a comedian like I'm not Bill Mar. I can't come out and do a monologue, things like that. Playing off other people was always going to be how the show succeeded or failed.
我不像Bill Mar一样是个喜剧演员。我不能站出来独自说一段独角戏，类似这样的东西。节目的成功或失败总是要靠与其他人互动来实现。
And I think, you know, just look at all the talk shows that have launched. Bell and he did a podcast about this a couple weeks ago. Like all the streamers have tried them. All these different ones.
我觉得，你知道的，就看看所有推出的脱口秀节目吧。Bell和他在几周前做了一个关于这个的播客。像所有流媒体都尝试过它们一样。所有这些不同的。
I think the last show, maybe the last late night show that launched successfully was Corden. Is it possible? Did he launch after after John Oliver? Yeah, but John Oliver is not a talk show. John Oliver is, you know, a content show.
我认为最后一档成功推出的晚间节目可能是 Corden。是这样吗？他是在 John Oliver 之后推出的吗？是的，但是 John Oliver 不是一个脱口秀节目。John Oliver 是一个内容节目。
So, but think about how many successful pods have watched with huge audiences and they're on demand.
所以，想想有多少成功的播客已经拥有了庞大的观众群，并且可随时随地进行点播。
I think the future for us was Spotify. And this is something we've, you know, we're involved a lot with at this point. It's just what is the video player for them on their app? It's a huge differentiator. They have to, we have to get that to the point that that basically becomes TV on your phone on the Spotify app. And that's something nobody else has.
我觉得对我们来说，未来是Spotify。这是我们现在非常参与的事情。问题是，他们的应用程序视频播放器是什么？这是一个巨大的区别。我们必须把它提升到那个程度，以至于它基本上在Spotify应用程序中成为了手机上的电视。这是其他人没有的东西。
We know it. Like we have Rogan and we have Alex Cooper and some other people. We have higher learnings on there to be able to see what you're watching. That's what people under 25 want. My son doesn't want to listen to anything. He wants to watch what he's listening to. Right.
我们知道这点。就像我们有罗根、亚历克斯·库珀和其他一些人一样。我们在那里有更高的学习机会，能够看到你正在观看什么。这是年龄在25岁以下的人想要的。我的儿子不想听什么，他想看他在听什么。没错。
So is there a middle ground for you where I mean, I know obviously you're focused on audio, but where you just say, look, we're also, I mean, you do film it. You don't film all of them, right? We just go, this is, this is our TV. This is a, if you want to watch this for 40 minutes, you want to listen to this 40 minutes you pick. Yes.
那么，你是否有一个折中方案呢？我是指，我知道你显然专注于音频，但你是否可以说，我们也做一些影像制作呢？你不是所有节目都有录影吧？我们只是在提供一个电视节目，如果你想看40分钟，或者听40分钟，你可以选择。是的。
And that was one of the reasons we went to Spotify ironically. We did a lot of this, we did it at Grantland and then we did it the ringer. We built, and Grantland, we had an electoral closet that was turned into a video studio. And we tried to do a bunch of that stuff.
那就是我们讽刺地去Spotify的原因之一。我们在Grantland这样做了很多次，然后我们在ringer这样做了。我们在Grantland建造了一个选举室，将其改建成了一个视频工作室。我们试图做了很多类似的事情。
And we had some real success. I mean, the stuff me and Jalen did it really did well. And I think it helped elevate Grantland. And we had some other stuff too. The ringer same thing. We had two studios.
我们有一些真正的成功。我的意思是，我和杰伦做的东西真的很好。我认为它帮助提升了Grantland。我们还有其他的一些东西。The ringer也一样。我们有两个工作室。
Our thought when we were joining Spotify was like, they're building this billion dollar compound in downtown O.A. It's going to have all the state of the art stuff. This will take us to another level. A show that Kyra learning was conceived as a TV podcast. You know, we, we started talking to them about that. I don't know, January, maybe December, January, 2020, I can't even remember, it was before the pandemic.
我们加入 Spotify 的想法是这样的，他们正在市区建造这个价值十亿美元的复合体。它将拥有所有最先进的设备。这将使我们达到另一个水平。Kyra Learning 是以电视播客的形式构思出来的节目。你知道，我们开始与他们谈论这个问题。我不知道，也许是在2020年1月或者12月，我甚至都记不清了，那时还没有疫情。
And we're going to be in a studio. It was going to be twice a week. We'd have big guests. And when we launched the podcast in, I think May was a Zoom show. You know, so I think now that stuff's ending.
我们要在一个工作室里进行录制，每周两次，邀请重要的来宾。当我们在五月份推出这个播客时，是通过Zoom进行的，但现在已经结束了这种方式。
We're really trying to gravitate toward how can we get people in a room? What's the best place for this? And, you know, I think for us, it's, it's, I always used the word malleable, probably too much.
我们真的在努力朝向如何让人们聚在一起？最好的地方在哪里？我觉得对我们来说，它是，它是，我总是用“可塑”的词语，可能用得太多了。
But we just, it dates back to the Grantland days. Like, how can you be malleable? How can you have a bunch of things going? How do you, how can you offer a bunch of things that different people might want?
但我们只是这始于 Grantland 时代。就像，你怎么能具有可塑性？你怎么会有很多事情在进行？你怎么能提供不同人可能想要的很多东西？
Like somebody like my son likes watching the YouTube clips of my podcast. They're short. They're like seven, eight minutes, but that's what he watches. He doesn't listen to my podcast. So how do we get all types of people? And then how do you battle in the TikTok era when everyone under 22 basically is just staring at their phone and you have to win their attention in two seconds?
就像我儿子喜欢观看我播客的YouTube剪辑一样。它们很短，大约七到八分钟，但那是他喜欢的。他不听我的播客。那么我们如何吸引各种类型的人？然后，当每个年龄在22岁以下的人都在盯着他们的手机，你必须在两秒钟内赢得他们的关注时，你如何在TikTok时代发起竞争？
And that's the next generation of consumers for us. Are they going to even listen to podcasts? It's kind of scary. Does that excite you trying to figure out how to reach a, uh, 12 year olds on TikTok? You go, you know what? That's going to be someone else's problem. Someone else figures this out. I'm going to do what I'm good at.
那就是我们的下一代消费者。他们会听播客吗？这有点吓人。你会因为要找出如何通过 TikTok 达到 12 岁小孩而感到兴奋吗？你会说：“那将成为其他人的问题。其他人会解决这个问题。我要做我擅长的事情。”
Well, for the ringer, probably not as big of a problem, but for Spotify, it's something that I think behind the scenes is something we talk about a lot. What is that audience? What are they going to want? How are they going to want it? And I think that's why video is so important to Spotify right now. They've been trying to crack it forever. You embraced, you didn't embrace.
好的，关于铃声，可能不是大问题，但对于Spotify 来说，这是我们在幕后经常谈论的事情。那个观众是谁？他们想要什么？他们想要怎样的音乐服务？我认为这就是为什么视频对于Spotify如此重要的原因。他们一直在尝试解决这个问题。你们采纳了，有些人并没有采纳。
You just sports betting was always part of what you did. Yeah. Yeah, that's an embracing. It was by DNA. It was a DNA and I had no interest in it. I listened to so many guests, the line shows. I had to figure out what you were talking about. Took me years to figure it out. Yeah. And then obviously it's legalized two years ago and everyone now went from like ignoring it to bear hug and basically a ton of money coming in. You know, $50 million for Levittar and John Skipper. You guys have fan dual deals. But those are bad businesses right now.
你只是一直在从事体育博彩。是的。是的，这很让人尴尬。这是我的DNA，但我对此不感兴趣。我听了很多嘉宾的节目，但我不知道他们在说什么。花了我好多年才明白。然后显然，两年前它合法化了，现在每个人都从忽视它变成了热情拥抱，并且大量的资金涌入。你知道，“Levittar”和“John Skipper”获得了FanDuel的协议。但这些现在不是好业务。
They can't keep spending all that money. They're trying to do what Netflix and the other streamers are doing to get market share. So eventually I assume that money goes away or shrinks. Are you thinking about that?
他们不能一直这么花钱。他们试图像 Netflix 和其他流媒体服务商那样获得市场份额。所以最终钱会耗尽或减少。你考虑过这个问题吗？
I disagree. I don't think the money goes away. You think they'll continue to throw as much money as they are right now at you and other media companies?Well, I don't, I mean, throw money around. I would feel like we earn the money.
我不同意。我不认为钱会消失。你认为他们会继续像现在这样向你和其他媒体公司投入大量的资金吗？嗯，我不这样认为，我是说，不会往外乱花钱。我感觉我们是赚来的钱。
We have a really good platform and it makes sense. You know, we've always done really well with all those places dating back to the beginning of the ring. I think you're going to have to prove that you can differentiate yourselves in some way to keep getting the money. I think that's what's changed.
我们有一个真正优秀的平台，而且很有意义。你知道，我们一直以来都在那些场所做得非常好，追溯到戒指诞生之初。我认为你们需要证明你们能以某种方式区别自己，以继续获取资金。我认为这就是改变的原因。
I think, you know, it was, it was a little like in 2015, Fando and DraftKings were in that holy war about fantasy sports, right? And there was a six month span where everyone was just throwing money around and then it ended. And it was like, all right, who is going to now come out of this and still be able to make money and then we saw how that played out.
你知道吗，我觉得2015年时，Fando和DraftKings参与了一场关于幻想体育的“圣战”，对吧？而那时期持续了六个月，每个人都在大肆花钱，最终结束了。之后，我们看到了谁能够从中脱颖而出，依然能够赚钱。这个结果咋样，你应该也知道了吧。
And I think the same thing with this, there's probably too many gambling companies right now. It's a little like the streaming universe. But on the flip side, it's not legal in California. It's not legal in Texas yet. It's not legal in half the states in the country yet. And as that evolves, there's just going to be more money in play. And I think I also think it's, it's just part of how people consume sports now.
我认为现在有太多的赌博公司了，这和流媒体世界一样。但另一方面，在加利福尼亚州还不合法，在得克萨斯州也还不合法，在全国的一半州也还不合法。随着情况的发展，投入的资金就会变得更多。我认为这也是人们现在消费体育的一部分。
You know, it's way different than it was when sound I were doing guest aligns and we had to like teach people what we were doing and explain it the first year, explain the lines a little bit and stuff like that. Now it's like, people are really, I think, I think what's the right word? I'm blanking people, people are versed in the gambling language now. I don't feel like they were 10 years ago.
你知道的，现在和过去不太一样了。以前我和Sound做客串时，我们不得不教人们我们在做什么，解释第一年的情况，解释一点点之类的。现在就不同了，人们真的很精通赌博语言。我觉得这是什么词？我想不起来了，但我觉得现在的人们跟10年前不一样了。
Do you think that finally there's still a line between like we'll talk about it basically up until the game starts and then during the game, we kind of steer clear of it. But do you think that eventually just bleeds into the broadcast and they're talking about covering a spread, etc?
你认为最后还是有一条界限，就是我们在比赛开始前基本上会谈论它，而在比赛期间，我们会避免讨论它。但你认为最终这种情况是否会渗透到广播中，他们会谈论如何覆盖点差等等？
I think it plays out like fantasy did where if they're trying, if you're trying to shoe horn in, sure horn it in and it's not authentic, it just sounds awkward. Like remember that whole stretch with fantasy when all these dudes were on there and they're like, oh, be great to have him on your fantasy team. And it just, it just didn't work.
我觉得它的表现方式就像梦幻般的那样，如果他们试图把东西硬塞进去，那么确实会很勉强，这样就不真实，只会听起来很尴尬。就像记得梦幻时期的整个阶段，所有这些家伙都在那里，他们说：“哦，让他加入你的梦幻团队会很棒。”但它就是不起作用。
I think from, from a gambling standpoint, part of like part of the science of why the lines are the lines, why they moved, future bets, things like that. It's actually really interesting. I mean, it's stuff that we've done certainly on my podcast for a while where, because that ties in to narratives, things that people think should be, but maybe they shouldn't be.
我认为，从赌博的角度来看，这一部分就像是解释线路科学原理、线路运动和未来赌注等内容。这些都非常有趣。我意思是，这方面的东西我们在播客上已经谈论了一段时间，因为它与叙述有关，人们认为某些事情应该存在，但可能并不是真的存在。
I remember like the defensive part of the year, we did a ringer gambling show about it. I'm going to say in like March and Marcus Smart was like 16 to one to win defensive part of the year. And BAM out of bio is the favorite. We had this conversation about it. We're like, that's weird. BAM out of bio is going to end up playing like 52 games. The Celtics have the best defense in the league like Smart 16 to one. Those are crazy. But it was organically, we were talking about the perception that, you know, BAM was the best defensive part of it, but maybe he wasn't and that Marcus was underrated. And I think that's the future of this stuff.
我记得我们像是在年度最佳防守球员方面，做了一个有关赌博的节目。我认为当时是三月份左右，马库斯·斯马特的胜算是16比1，而班·阿德巴约则是最有可能获胜的。我们进行了一番讨论，发现班·阿德巴约只有可能打52场比赛，而凯尔特人队在联盟中有最好的防守，所以斯马特胜算是非常疯狂的。不过，我们讲了那都是自然而然就说出来的，我们正在讨论这个问题的看法，即班是最佳的防守球员，但也许他不是，而马库斯被低估了。我认为这就是未来的趋势。
And are you thinking through like, okay, some of my audience is really into gambling and they're, they're in for this and some just want entertaining content and they're not necessarily for it. And so I need to balance that out. And I can't constantly be talking about spreads and long shots and odds.
你是否在考虑，我的观众有些人真的喜欢赌博，他们对此感兴趣。有些人只是想看娱乐内容，对此并不感冒。所以我需要平衡这一点。我不能不断地谈论赔率和押注。
Yeah, I don't, I don't feel like we do. I, I mean, I've been doing that piece for so long. It's always organic to my podcast. We never try to shoehorn it in unless it's like a break or something like that. But for the most part, if we're talking about stuff, it is always tied to some sort of interesting angle, right? Like why are the chiefs the number two favorites in the NFL right now when they traded Ty Reco and it seems like this could be, you know, transition year for them or anything. And then that's a segment, things like that.
嗯，我不太感觉我们这样做。我意思是，我已经为那个部分做了这么久了。这总是我播客的自然组成部分。除非是像休息之类的东西，我们从来不会试图硬塞。但大多数情况下，如果我们在谈论什么，它总是与某种有趣的角度相联系，对吧？比如，为什么Chief现在是NFL第二个最受欢迎的球队？他们交易了Ty Reco，看起来像是他们的转型年，是这样的。那么，这就是一个片段，就像这样的东西。
I think the analytics are way better too. And just in general, like, I think that's really elevated the sports discourse, you know, like the stuff like second spectrum and the stuff that Warren Sharp does, the stuff that Haral Bob has when he comes on my podcast, the stuff that our ringer NBA guys are using. And I think that stuff makes understanding basketball better. I've gotten really into men and blazers this year who you used to work with a lot better and they haven't talked to them about this, but they maybe once an hour, they'll mention like some kind of staff, but almost the rest of it's totally anti-staff. Like it's all narrative kind of sports rightery and like in a world where like, it doesn't exist. Yeah.
我觉得数据分析也比以前更好了。总的来说，比如像second spectrum和Warren Sharp所做的那些工作，还有Haral Bob在我的播客上谈到的那些，我们的Ringer NBA团队在使用的那些东西，都大大提高了体育话题的水平。我今年非常喜欢和你过去合作过的Men and Blazers，但我还没有和他们谈论过这些。但是他们每隔一个小时左右会提到某种数据，但几乎其余的都是完全反对数据分析的。就像在一个没有数据分析的世界里一样。是的。
Does that, do you ever feel like, I'd like to go back to that era, like where we weren't doing saber metrics and whatever the money ball stuff was? I think soccer is a little bit easier to feel that way. I think it really hurt baseball. I looked back at the first three years of my podcast, how much I talked about baseball and how much more fun it was to talk about baseball and now everything has to be based in some sort of statistical thing. You know, and I just don't think it's that interesting to listen to. I have trouble with it. Some people like it, but in terms of 20 years ago, and I'm not saying this is right around, this is just the way it is. We would have maybe 22 years ago. These Geter Nomar arguments, pre-podcast, where we would just argue and it was all I test stuff. However you felt, it was a little like if you're arguing now about a Steph Curry better than LeBron. We have that stats with this stuff, but there's still an I test piece to the NBA that makes it more fun. The NFL in quarterbacks, it's another one. If you're saying is Russell Wilson a top 10 quarterback still, I can bring up stats, but I can also like do I test and I can bring up examples and there's not a definitive answer to it. Like we've seen this with the MVP where Traut would win the MVP and the Angels would win 74 games. And they were like, well, he had the best stats, so he's the MVP. Once that stuff starts happening, I don't, there's not a lot of places to go. You know, so I think it's definitely her baseball. Yeah, I tune out. And there was a period where you and your writing would start dropping in a lot of data blocks. And I'm like, I'm just going to scroll down. Yeah. It was weird to write about baseball and not have to lean on the stats, you know, but that's where we were.
你有没有觉得有时候想回到那个时代？就像我们还没有使用剑术统计和那些钱球的东西一样？我认为足球会更容易让人们有这种感觉。但我认为它真正伤害了棒球。我回顾了我的播客的前三年，发现我谈论棒球的次数很多，而现在每件事都必须基于某种统计数据。你知道，我认为这并不是那么有趣。我有点困惑。一些人喜欢这种方法，但就二十年前而言，我不说这是刚刚发生的，这只是这方面的现状。二十二年前，我们可能就有了Geter Nomar这样的争吵，还没有播客，我们只是争论，这全都是我测试验的。然而，每个人的感觉都不一样，就像现在你可能会争论斯蒂芬·库里比勒布朗更好一样。尽管我们现在有了这些统计数据，但NBA仍有一些I测试验的因素，这让它更有趣。NFL里的四分卫位置也是这样，如果你问罗素·威尔森仍是前十四分卫，我会列出统计数据，但我也会做出I测试验，并举出例子，没有确定的答案。就像我们在MVP竞争中看到的那样，特劳特将获得MVP称号，然而他的球队天使队仅赢了74场比赛，他们认为他是MVP，因为他拥有最好的统计数据。一旦出现这种情况，我就不知道还能去哪里了。你知道，所以我认为它绝对会伤害棒球。是的，我就有些不感兴趣了。还有一段时间，你写的东西里加入了很多数据块，我只想往下滚动。在没有依靠统计数据写棒球的时候，感觉有些奇怪，但那就是我们当时的处境。
All one of the reasons that football is so much fun is there's so much randomness to it. And season to season, even month to month sometimes guys can go up or down. There's still some great stats. I use them, especially for gambling. I think they're really helpful. But but you can still have arguments like, all right, if Tom Brady was on the Saints instead of the bucks, would he still be Tom Brady? And then you go and now you're arguing for five minutes. I think it's tough for with other sports.
足球之所以这么有趣的一个原因是因为它有太多的随机性。甚至从赛季到赛季，有时甚至从一个月到另一个月，球员们的表现也会有起伏。但是它仍然有一些很棒的统计数据。我会使用它们，特别是在赌博时。我认为它们真的很有帮助。但是你仍然可以争论，比如说，如果汤姆·布雷迪不在水手队而在海盗队，他还会是汤姆·布雷迪吗？这时你们就会争论五分钟。我认为其他运动很难做到这点。
And how does this data centric view the world apply to you or not apply to you world to running this this company in terms of I like this podcast. Its numbers aren't really moving. At some point I got to let it go or you know what, this is really good. We're just going to keep doing it or I want to talk about a movie from the 70s, but I don't think the audience is going to be there. But you got to serve an audience. I assume you go back and forth on that.
这个以数据为中心的世界观对你的公司有什么影响，或者并没有影响呢？我很喜欢这个播客，可是它的收听量并没有多少变化。到一定程度，我不得不放手，或者你知道吗，这非常棒，我们就继续做下去，或者我想谈一个七十年代的电影，可我觉得听众不会很多。但你必须顾及听众。我想你会在这一点上反复权衡。
I'm way less relying on that than I think maybe some other people would be. I'd never want to know what my numbers are. I only want to know if they've like dramatically done something, but I don't look at them.
我比其他人可能更不依赖那个。我不想知道我的数字是多少。我只想知道它们是否有重大变化，但我不看它们。
In terms of you know the podcast network has a whole obviously if you have pods that aren't doing well, that's not going to be awesome. But I think you know, I'm trying to think of the right way to answer this. For ad sales purposes, it matters at least a little bit. You have to report this stuff really objectively where it's really helped us. In one of the reasons we want to go to Spotify was they have incredible war chest of intelligence on the habits of people who listen to podcasts, right?
就整个播客网络而言，如果有些节目的点击量不太好，那肯定不太好。但我觉得，我正在思考合适的回答方式。至少在广告销售方面，这点是很重要的。你必须以客观的方式进行报告，这真的有帮助我们。我们想去Spotify的原因之一是，他们对听播客的人的习惯具有非凡的智能战争库。
So if we like a certain podcast, we can actually go and see how many people are listening to it. If we feel like there's a piece of kind of turf available, then that can inform like who's in that turf, who's doing well? Could we beat this? Could we have a bigger audience in this? I think Derek Thompson is a good example, right? There was kind of that those smart podcasts that are kind of the news about. Derek writes for the Atlantic and did a little bit of podcasting for them. Yeah, and he, I think is one of the best writers right now.
所以如果我们喜欢某个播客，我们实际上可以去看看有多少人在收听它。如果我们觉得有一个空闲的领域，那么这可以告诉我们谁在这个领域内，谁做得好？我们能击败他们吗？我们能在这个领域有更大的受众吗？我想Derek Thompson是一个很好的例子，对吧？有那些智能播客关于新闻。Derek为大西洋杂志写作，并为他们的播客做了一点工作。是的，我认为他现在是最好的作家之一。
And you know, always wanted to work with him really liked him. I had him on my podcast a couple times and he was really good and started to think like, all right, what kind of podcast could we figure out? He told me he thought that was a tryout. Was that explicit in your mind? Like I'm going to try and out see how he is. Did he say that? Yeah, to me. Yeah. Interesting. I didn't feel that way. I just, I thought he was interesting. I wanted to have a lot of people on. I think after the pod that made me start to realize that guy's good. Like, that would be cool if we had the pod.
你知道的，我一直很想和他一起工作，真的喜欢他。我曾经让他参加过我的播客几次，他做得很好，于是我开始想，好吧，我们能做什么样的播客呢？他告诉我说他认为那是一个试验。你有这个意识吗？比方说，我要试试他是怎么样的。他说了吗？是的，对我说的。很有意思。我并没有那样的感觉。我只是觉得他很有意思，我想找很多人来做访谈。我觉得当时的播客让我开始意识到那个人很厉害，如果我们能一起做播客就很酷。
But the kind of pod that he was able to bring to us was a pod we didn't have. It's the things that he talks about. And sometimes he's in the moment reacting to stuff too, which works. But really smart, great guests. And a perfect example of like if we're going to add a podcast to our network, does it bring something to us that we don't have?
但他能给我们带来的那种豆荚是我们没有的。他所讲的话是关键。有时，他在即时反应某些事情，这很有效。他是聪明，优秀的嘉宾。这是一个完美的例子，如果我们要将一个播客添加到我们的网络中，它是否为我们带来了我们没有的东西？
You've always been really good in your team about spotting talent, young talent, new talent, bringing him in. They go off and do amazing things. I was talking to Wesley Morris about this. He'd already won Pulitzer's, but you still managed to blow him up even bigger than that. He didn't need any blowing up. He was great. He's still helped.
你一直在团队中非常擅长发掘才华，特别是年轻的、新的才华，让他们加入我们。他们取得了惊人的成就。我和Wesley Morris谈到了这个问题。他已经获得了普利策奖，但你还是让他更出名了。其实他已经很棒了，但你还是帮了他的忙。
Is assessing someone as a podcaster a different skill set than figuring out if they're a good writer or is it just assessing talent and you're good at it or not? Definitely a different skill set. I think the people that succeed, we bring some advantages, right?
把某人评定为播客人才和判断他们是否是好作家，这两者需要的技能是不同的吗？还是只是评估人才的能力问题，你是否擅长？肯定是不同的技能。我认为成功的人会带来一些优势，对吧？
Like we have, I think, you know, this new thing now where people are like, I've started a network. It's way harder than just I've collected a 10 podcasts and they're all next to each other. Like if you're really doing a network correctly, you've got to figure out how to raise awareness for a new podcast that you're doing or a podcast that you have, right? And I think at Grantland, we had nine of the 10 biggest pods at ESPN. Part of the reason was we, there was a connective tissue with all the pods and I could promote them on my, my pod are social feeds. But also a sensibility, right? It's not just that you know, they all made sense together in some way.
就像我们现在有一个新的东西，人们会说，“我建立了一个网络”。但这比只收集十个播客并把它们放在一起要难得多。如果你想真正正确地进行网络，你必须想办法宣传新的播客或你已经有的播客，对不对？我认为在Grantland，我们有ESPN的十个最大播客中的九个。其中一个原因是我们所有播客之间有联系，我可以在我的播客和社交网络上进行推广。同时也具有一种理念，对吧？不仅是因为它们在某种程度上很好地配合在一起。
And I think for us, when we're looking at bringing somebody in, it's like, from a chemistry standpoint, do they seem like they make sense of us? Is it somebody like, why isn't he, Lambert is a good example, right? He's, he's somebody we've liked for a while. He just came in and he fit perfectly, right? He can pop up on my podcast. Where did you, where did you find him? Well, he was at the athletic. But he had, he'd been, he'd been around for a few years and he was just really likable. But he came in and he just fit in seamlessly, right?
我认为，当我们考虑引进某个人时，就像从化学的角度来看，他们是否看起来适合我们？像兰伯特这样的人就是一个很好的例子，我们喜欢他已经有一段时间了，他很完美地融入了我们的团队。他可以频繁出现在我的播客中。你是从哪里找到他的？他在体育界，但是他已经在那里工作了几年，而且他真的很讨人喜欢。但是他来了之后就完美地融入了我们的团队。
He was, he could pop on Ring or Ambatio, he could host shows, he does fashion stuff, he could do culture stuff. We've, he's been on prestige TV, he's been on rewatchables. So those type of people who it's like, I don't just have this specialty. I'm good at a bunch of stuff. I think are the people that dating back to the Grantland days we've, we've always succeeded with. I honestly don't think we've gotten enough credit for all the talent that we've either found or elevated.
他能参加Ring节目或Ambatio节目，他能主持节目，他还有时尚方面的才能，他能做文化类节目。我们已经在享誉盛名的电视节目和可重复观看的节目中看到了他。那些能做多项才能的人，不仅仅是某一领域的专家，我认为这些人是我们自格兰特兰时代以来一直成功的人。我真的认为我们没有得到足够的荣誉，无论是我们发掘的才华还是提拔的人才。
I would, I would put our, the track record dating back to 2011, Grantland, all the people that have passed through our universe just tell me who did better. Yeah, I've, I talked to a lot of them because you're good at finding them.
如果需要，我会改写以下英文：我会把我们从2011年开始的历程放到桌面上，加兰德网站上的所有人只要告诉我谁做得更好。是的，我和很多人都交谈过，因为你擅长找到他们。
There was a thing a couple of years ago with the staff at the Ring or the Writing Staffs that, hey, we want to be on more podcasts where we're not getting our chance and bills having his friends come on and what's up with that. And there was a New York time story and you had a quote there, you emailed them saying this is not amateur hour.
几年前，Ring或Writing Staff的工作人员有一个事情，他们想要参加更多的播客节目，但却没有机会，只有Bills的朋友才能来上节目。那时，有一篇纽约时报报道，你在里面发表了评论，通过电子邮件表示这不是业余时间。
Is there any way you replay that and give more people from the staff a chance or you made the right call? Well, I think the first couple of years were your startup. When you're a startup, you're throwing stuff against the wall and you're trying to survive.
你可以重新回放一下并给更多员工一个机会吗？或者你已经做出了正确的决定吗？嗯，我认为最开始的几年是你的创业时期。当你是个创业公司时，你会试着往墙上扔东西，试图生存下去。
I think what we realized started in 2020 on is that we had to have the best possible people on all the, all the best possible podcasts. And that's how we did the mindset. Going back to the first couple of years. I just think we were trying a bunch of things, you know, and would I do that? Do it that way again? Yeah, in some ways, but in other ways, I look back and I just don't think people realize how hard it is to start something from scratch and how many variables there are.
我想我们从2020年开始意识到的是，我们必须拥有所有最优秀的人，制作出一切最优秀的播客。这就是我们的心态。回到前几年，我觉得我们只是试着尝试了很多东西，你知道吗？如果再让我这样做，我会这样做吗？在某些方面是的，但在其他方面，我回想起来，我认为人们没有意识到从零开始创业有多么困难，有多少变数。
Like we look back, we didn't have HR. We didn't have a single HR person. I don't think for the first 18 months of the company or maybe it was like the first 20 months, something like that. Pretty standard for a startup. That seems crazy to me now. That should have been one of the first things we had, but it's a million things like that where you look back and you go, man, why do we do it that way?
就像我们回顾过去一样，我们没有人力资源部门。我们没有任何一个人力资源人员。我认为在公司成立的前18个月，或者可能是前20个月，都没有人力资源人员。这对于初创公司来说相当标准。现在我觉得这太疯狂了。这应该是我们最先需要的事情之一，但有数不清的事情，你回首看去，感到，哎呀，为什么我们要那样做呢？
And I think for us, like we're just trying to keep getting better. I think it was unfair to expect a company that had a digital media company that had been together for basically three years to do everything perfectly. There's certainly some things I would do over again, but ultimately, you know, we're in years six now. I think we've done a really good job.
我认为对于我们来说，我们只是在努力变得更好。我觉得期望一个数字媒体公司在基本上只有三年历史的情况下就做到完美是不公平的。当然，有些事情我会重新做一遍，但最终，你知道，我们现在已经六年了。我认为我们已经做得非常好了。
I mean, you think about, we've been profitable the whole time. We were one of the only digital media companies that didn't have any layoffs at all. We've continued to hire. I'm really proud of the people we're hiring. I think from a diversity standpoint, we've done way better and we feel like we're continuing to do better and it's something that we continue to care about and we've continued to find talent. So you know, six years in and I'm proud of where we are.
我是说，你想想，我们一直是盈利的。我们是很少有没有进行任何裁员的数字媒体公司之一。我们一直在招聘人员，我真的为我们招聘的人感到自豪。从多样性的角度来看，我们做得更好了，而且我们感觉我们正在继续改进，这是我们仍然关心的问题，我们一直在寻找人才。所以你知道，六年过去了，我为我们所处的位置感到自豪。
Yeah. So, like I said, you sold the company early 2020 right before the pandemic, other than a lot of money, than $250 million, why sell the Spotify and walk me through how you went from not trying to sell the company to sell in the company. Two things. One was we didn't need to sell. We never hired a banker. It wasn't sure when we would sell it, if we would sell, it wasn't like one of those things.
是的。就像我说的，你在2020年初在疫情爆发之前出售了公司，除了赚了很多钱，也就是2.5亿美元，为什么要把Spotify卖了，你能给我说说你是如何从不想卖公司到决定卖公司的过程吗？有两个原因。首先是我们不需要卖。我们从来没有雇佣过银行家，也不确定何时会卖，如果会卖的话，也不是那种提前计划好的事情。
This is how you bankrolled yourself mostly, right? HBO helped out. And HBO helped out a little. But you didn't bring, did you bring on other investors? It did not. Okay. So it's all you. Well, pretty much. I think we were looking at it like feeling like we were a mid major in college basketball that we could compete, we could get to the tournament, we could win some games, maybe we could even make the final eight.
这就是你主要资助自己的方式，对吧？HBO有帮忙过一点点。你没有引进其他投资者吗？没有的。好的，所以都是你的功劳了。嗯，差不多是的。我想我们一直把自己看作是大学篮球联赛中的中等水平，我们可以竞争，可以进入比赛，可以赢得一些比赛，甚至可能进入最后八强。
But ultimately, we just, until we were aligned with somebody bigger, it just felt like it was going to be tougher for us to attract talent and retain talent. Not just talent on podcasts and writers and stuff like that, but people behind the scenes. We were just having, there was this sense that we could feel it. Like, are those guys, are those guys going to be sticking around? What's going on with those guys? How are they funded? All that stuff.
但最终，我们只是觉得，在没有与更大的人合作之前，吸引和留住人才对我们来说会更加困难。不仅仅是在播客和写作等人才方面，而且是相对低调的幕后人员。我们感到了这种压力。就像，那些人，他们会一直留在这里吗？他们的情况怎么样？他们的资金是怎样的？所有这些问题。
And I think when you're aligned with a big company, that stuff goes away. And I think I look at just the infrastructure we have now from a hiring standpoint, HR, from a sales standpoint, all these things that we're able to take that stuff off our table so we could just concentrate what we're good at. That really helped us.
我认为当你与一家大公司合作时，那些问题都会消失。我看到我们现在所拥有的基础设施，就从招聘、人力资源、销售等方面来说都帮助我们把这些问题处理了，这样我们可以更专注于自己擅长的事情。这确实对我们有很大帮助。
So for me, competitively, I looked at Spotify, I looked at the trajectory of where I thought they were going, that I thought they had a chance to be the leader in audio. I knew how I felt about audio and all the opportunities there. And I felt like we were in pole position with it. And one of the people in pole position with it. And it just seemed like this makes sense. I feel like I'm catching these guys at the right time.
对我来说，竞争上，我看了看Spotify，看了看他们的发展轨迹，我认为他们有可能成为音频领域的领导者。我知道自己对音频以及所有机会的感觉。我感觉我们处于极为有利的位置。而且我们其中一个人处于领先地位。这似乎很有道理。我感觉我在合适的时间抓住了这些家伙。
And the same way at ESPN, in 2008, 9 range, ESPN was really becoming a powerhouse. I caught them at the right time. And that was what I was hoping would happen in Spotify. So I think word that you guys were talking to them was out there, maybe in the fall. And if I heard about it, obviously people who would money would hear about it. Where are the folks coming and saying, we go with us instead of Spotify. We'll match that offer. We'll beat that offer. We had, I mean, going back to 2018, I mean, 2017. We really had people kind of kicking the tires on us the whole time.
同样，在2008年9月份，ESPN在成为一股强大力量方面取得了很大进展。我正好抓住了他们成长的时机。我希望在Spotify也能发生同样的事情。所以我认为你们和他们正在谈判的消息已经流传出去了，可能是在秋天的时候。如果我了解了这件事，那么有钱的人肯定也知道了。他们会来找我们，说“跟着我们走吧，我们会给你们提供同样的条件，甚至更好的条件”。回顾到2018年，甚至是2017年，我们真的有很多人来考察我们。
But it was, I was so determined to be my own boss and not have to work for somebody else. I just, after the ESPN experience, I just wanted to be on my own. I wanted to have my own thing. I wanted to be in charge of it. I wanted to be in charge of who, you know, who we hired, what we did and what deals we made. And that's what I wanted. And I had a great inner circle and that everyone is still part of it. It's the same inner circle we've had for six years. And it was just really fun.
但我当时非常下定决心，要成为自己的老板，不再为别人工作。在ESPN经历之后，我只想独立自主，拥有自己的事业。我想要掌管一切，包括我们聘请谁，我们做什么以及我们做出哪些交易。这就是我的愿望。我有一个很好的核心团队，每个人都还是现在的一部分。这个核心团队已经持续了六年，这真的很有趣。
I think, you know, starting probably in 2019 range, you start going, is there a ceiling on this? What are we going to look like two years from now? I mean, the pandemic, Jesus, if we had been on our own for that, that would have been, you know, I think we would have been fine. But it was a lot easier that digested part of Spotify. But the pandemic, the crazy thing about the Spotify part was we officially, the sale went through on March 1st. And then on like March 8th, they shut their offices down. And then March 11th was the Rudy Go Bear game.
我觉得，你知道，也许从2019年开始，你开始思考，这能达到一个顶峰吗？两年后我们会是什么样子呢？我的意思是，疫情，天啊，如果我们自己应对的话，那会是，你知道，我觉得我们还可以应对得了。但是这要是没有Spotify这一部分的帮助，那就太难了。 Spotify那一部分的疯狂之处是，我们的销售确切的在3月1日完成了，然后在3月8日，他们就关掉了他们的办公室。然后在3月11日，那场鲁迪·戈贝尔的比赛发生了。
So we, for the first two years, we hadn't met pretty much anyone we worked with. We were doing everything on Zoom. We weren't in an office. The office was a big part of like the spitball culture we had and things like that. Like that was gone and just trying to navigate. How do we continue to do content? And now I look back. I'm like, holy shit. This was, we just do it on Zoom. Record on your ends. Like get good mics. Why the fuck didn't we know this in 2018? It took everyone a few months to figure it out. Oh my God. I was going into my office on Sunday nights to do the football pod with Kyle and we, I drive into the office and we tape it. I could have just done it at my house.
所以，在头两年，我们几乎没有见过任何我们共事的人。我们一切都在 Zoom 上完成。我们没有办公室。办公室是我们的创意文化的重要组成部分，但它已经不存在了，我们试图如何继续制作内容？现在回想起来，我感觉“天哪”。我们只需要把它做到 Zoom 上，用好麦克风录制即可。为什么我们在2018年不知道这些呢？每个人都花了几个月的时间才摸索出来。我曾经在周日晚上开车去办公室和 Kyle 一起录制足球播客，其实我完全可以在家里录制。
So stuff like that, you look back and you go, man, how did we not know that? But on the other hand, I do think it set us back because we joined this big company and we were doing everything on Zoom and then obviously some, some people come and go and things like that. And by the time we're actually in the office, it's the, a lot of the people aren't even there from two years ago.
像这样的事情，你回头一看，你就会想，哇，我们怎么之前不知道呢？但另一方面，我认为这让我们退步了，因为我们加入了这个大公司，我们所有的事情都是通过Zoom完成的，显然有一些人来了又走，等到我们真正到办公室时，很多人根本就不在了。这是两年前的事情了。
We spent a long time working for Disney. You got fired. You went and built your own company. Now you're really. I think I fired. That did not renew your contract. They did not renew my contract. Which they announced the New York Times before telling you. Yeah, because they were being decks. So then now you are working for Spotify and Danielaq.
我们在迪士尼工作了很长时间。你被解雇了。然后你去创立了自己的公司。现在你十分成功了。我认为是我被解雇了，他们没有续签我的合同。而且他们在告诉你之前就已经向《纽约时报》宣布了。是的，因为他们很不公平。现在你在为Spotify和Danielaq工作。
What did you learn from being an employee at Disney that's going to change the way you work for this company? Good question. Well, first I'm older, which I think helps. I definitely look back at some of the, I'm not saying I was blameless and some of the ESPN stuff. I think if I had to do over an ESPN thing, I just, I don't know why I cared so much about some of the stuff, you know?
你在迪士尼的工作经验会对你在这家公司的工作方式造成什么影响呢？这是一道好问题。嗯，首先我现在年纪更大了，我觉得这有帮助。我回忆过去在 ESPN 的一些事情，我并不是说我没有错，但我认为如果我有机会再来一次，我不知道为什么我会那么在意一些事情。
Like there are certain things. Grantland, the fact that they wouldn't give us more headcount, to me, is still indefensible because I don't look back at what we created for those four years. It was like the genesis of something really special. It was a digital multimedia site. Really before. There were a lot of those. You know, and it's like, damn, if they just kept that and watered the plan on it, what would that have been worth now?
就像有一些东西一样。在我看来，Grantland 不愿为我们提供更多人手支持，仍然是难以辩护的，因为我回想起那四年我们所创造的东西，就像是一种非常特别的东西的开端。它是一个数字多媒体网站，真的是在其他网站之前。当时有很多类似网站，但是如果他们保持那个计划并继续发展下去，那现在那个网站可能价值多少钱呢？
I've had people that worked there now in higher positions who were like, I can't believe we fucked that up. But I think from my standpoint, like, yeah, I maybe shouldn't have cared so much that this happened or that happened or whatever. Should I have cared that we didn't have a social media editor for four years into the site? Yeah, I should have. But I think from a Spotify standpoint, I think just realizing that with a big company, sometimes things get clumsy. Sometimes this will happen. You have no control over it. Sometimes this person will leave and that sucks. Whatever that, you just kind of have to ride it.
我在那里工作过的人现在在更高级别的职位上工作，他们说：“我简直不敢相信我们搞砸了那件事。” 但我觉得，从我的立场来看，也许我不应该太在意这件事或其他事情。 我应该关心我们在四年内没有社交媒体编辑吗？ 是的，我应该。但是我认为从 Spotify 的角度来看，他们需要意识到，对于一个大公司来说，有时候事情会变得笨拙。 有时会发生这种情况。你对此无能为力。有时这个人会离开，这很糟糕。无论发生什么，在这个过程中你只能顺势而为。
It's like being on a huge boat and you just kind of never know what's going to happen. When you're in control of your own stuff, it just feels more serene, even though it's not, you have more responsibility on that stuff. So much more stuff's out of your control of the big company. You have to learn how to deal with that.
这就像在一艘巨大的船上，你永远不知道会发生什么。当你掌控自己的事物时，感觉更加宁静，尽管实际上你对那些事物负有更多责任。大公司的许多事情都不在你的掌控之下，你必须学会如何应对。
So what is your job there now? Are you running the ringer and doing what you're doing before, except now you're on a, now you're an employee before you were in boss or are you doing additional stuff because you're at Spotify? Well, I'm running the ringer and then now I'm running global sports for them.
你现在在那里的工作是什么？你是在跑ring games并做你之前做的事情吗，只是现在你是员工而以前你是老板，还是因为你在Spotify，你正在做额外的工作？嗯，我现在在跑ring games和全球体育。
So what does that mean? That means we have to figure out a comprehensive sports strategy for audio and storytelling with other opportunities are popping up that aren't just domestic and it's something that I've been helping them with the last two years. But I think we formalized it because we had to. Some of the other countries are behind from an audio standpoint, but you know, really trying to figure out some stuff that will elevate the company in a sports standpoint. We want to be the place that if anybody is doing something sports related, if there's like a big personality, there's a big property or whatever, we'll be one of the people that come to.
那是什么意思呢？这意味着我们需要为音频和故事叙述设计一个全面的体育策略，并且仍有其他机会出现，不仅仅是国内的机会。这是我在过去两年里一直在帮助他们的事情。但是我认为我们必须正式将其规范化。从音频方面来看，其他一些国家还有很多进步空间，但是我们正在努力找出一些能够提升公司在体育领域地位的方法。我们想成为“如果有人正在从事与体育相关的事情，如果有像大人物、有重要资产等，我们都成为其中之一的人”。
Is that budget and people? Do you have more, are you managing more stuff now or? Yeah, we're figuring that out now. It will be more stuff.
那是预算和员工吗？你现在有更多的东西要管理吗？是的，我们正在弄清楚。将会有更多东西。
And do you imagine like this, you know, that we keep having these conversations about when it sports rights, one of the going to peak, they keep going up, they keep going up. Is this something where you guys see you can imagine like you're bidding for rights for audio or video for sports or do you think you're always going to be sort of commentating? I think audio definitely storytelling stuff, I think will be way more in the mix, especially I mean, we already are to some degree with the ringer films, but I think that's, there's some stuff that's coming that we're going to announce that I think people will be surprised by. And then, you know, I just trying to use some of the technology and use the platform that they're building in the giant Spotify audience, trying to leverage that in the right ways around the world.
你觉得我们一直在谈论的体育转播权什么时候会到达顶峰，它们一直在攀升。你们是否能想象，你们会竞标体育音频或视频版权，还是认为你们会一直做评论员？我认为，音频故事叙述方面肯定会更多地混合在一起，特别是现在我们已经在一定程度上通过短片取得了一些进展，但我认为即将推出的一些内容会让人们感到惊讶。而我只是试图利用一些技术和他们正在建立的巨大Spotify听众平台，在全球范围内正确地利用这些资源。
Do you think about like basketball and soccer and F1 and some of these sports? Like who's me in Germany? Right, who's were silo in Brazil? Who's Kevin O'Connor in Australia? Like can we find more people like that? I think the daunting part for me is I, we can find talent in domestically, like we'll just always be able to do that. But how do we find talent abroad? How can we help some of those markets, you know, learn some of the stuff that we've learned and then execute them in their own ways?
你有没有想过像篮球、足球、F1和其他运动那样的运动呢？比如在德国是谁？在巴西是谁？在澳大利亚是Kevin O'Connor？我们能否找到更多像这样的人才？对我来说，最困难的部分是，我们可以在国内找到人才，这个任务一直都能完成。但我们如何在国外发掘人才呢？我们如何帮助那些市场学习我们所学到的东西，并用自己的方式执行呢？
And then what are the opportunities? I think from a video standpoint, we've seen sports is just going nuts, you know, now that Amazon is in a big way like Spotify, the video player isn't close yet. But there will be a point down the road when we'll be able to run live stuff on the video podcast player. And is that an ambition? Like we'd like to, we'd like to broadcast a game or you go, we're never got, even though we're Spotify, we're never going to compete with Amazon or Apple or Tencent or whoever it is for NFL rights. Well, for Spotify, it's not just sports, obviously music would be an even bigger draw for that, right? So, if the technology gets to a place where, you know, could you watch day one of Coachella on Spotify? Could you watch, I don't know, the Euro League championships on Spotify, whatever. Can we get the technology to that point when's that going to be?
那么有哪些机会呢？我认为从视频的角度来看，我们已经看到体育运动变得异常火爆，现在亚马逊就像Spotify一样强大了，视频播放器距离我们还有很长的路要走。但是，在未来的某个时候，我们将能够在视频播客播放器上运行实时内容。这是一种抱负吗？比如我们希望播放一场比赛，或者我们可以看到一些从未有过的东西，尽管我们是Spotify，但我们永远无法与亚马逊、苹果、腾讯或其他拥有NFL授权的公司竞争。对于Spotify来说，显然不仅仅是体育，音乐对我们来说也是一个更大的吸引点，对吧？因此，如果技术能够达到这样的水平，你能在Spotify上看到第一天的Coachella音乐节吗？你能在Spotify上看到欧洲联赛冠军赛等等吗？我们何时能把技术推到那个程度？
And maybe we won't, maybe that, maybe they'll just decide that's not what we want to do. But you think of all the ways the company's grown. The thing people forget about Spotify is they've only been in content since 2018, like really, like in terms of making their own stuff, yeah.
也许我们不会这样做，也许他们会决定这不是我们想要做的事情。但你想想公司成长的种种方式。人们忘记了Spotify自2018年以来才真正涉足内容产业。
Making their own stuff, buying companies, buying sales components, buying technology, all the stuff they've done, they weren't doing it in 2017, I don't think. So it's, this is year five. I think we're in pretty good shape. Like you think some of the purchases, like megaphone things like that. And then some of the companies they bought and the talent that they've been able to bring in, I think it's in a pretty good spot.
他们制造自己的东西，购买公司、销售零部件、购买技术，所有这些事情，我想在2017年他们还没有这么做。所以，这是第五年了，我认为我们的情况相当不错。例如他们购买了一些扩音器之类的东西，以及他们收购的一些公司和他们成功引进的人才，我想这个方面是相当好的。
Speaking of talent, they brought in Joe Rogan, multiple blow ups. I think during the biggest one, I was watching your pods pretty carefully on your site. I don't think you, I think Derek mentioned it once and beyond that, you guys steer clear of it. Was that an edict from you? Like let's just steer out of this or did Spotify say it's just to stay out of Rogan? No edict. No, it's, it's, you know, there's four million podcasts now and Spotify has a bunch of them and it's, it's us. I don't worry about stuff I can't control. Whatever Joe's going to say in his podcast, whether you agree or they're not, I don't really care.
说到天赋，他们引入了乔·罗根，有多个爆炸。我觉得在最大的那个爆炸期间，我在你的网站上仔细观看了你的播客。我不认为你们有提到过，除了德里克提到了一次之外，你们都避开这个话题了。这是你下达的法令吗？就是让我们远离这个话题或者是Spotify说不要碰罗根？没有法令。不，这是，你知道现在有四百万个播客，Spotify有很多，也有我们自己的。我不担心我不能控制的事情。无论乔在他的播客中说了什么，无论你同意还是不同意，我都不在意。
What about just covering it as a topic? Like this is something people are talking about. We did. We covered it on, I think we covered on press box. I think we covered it on Derek Thompson's podcast. That's fine with that. I think we've, we've never shied away from stuff.
那就把它当作一个话题来讨论怎么样？就好像这是人们正在谈论的一件事情一样。我们已经这样做了。我想我们在 press box 上报道了它。我想我们在 Derek Thompson 的播客上也报道了它。这样做也很好。我想我们从来没有回避过这种事情。
I mean, we even go back to my podcast at ESPN. Like I certainly wasn't afraid to talk about stuff that seemed to overlap. I think that thing for us, we always just want to be fair with how we discuss it. I think, I think we were.
我是说，我们甚至回到我在 ESPN 的播客。就像我肯定不害怕谈论看起来重叠的东西。我认为对于我们来说，我们总是希望在讨论时公正。我认为，我认为我们做到了。
How much longer it's Spotify? You sold two years usually when you sell a startup, it's like a four year deal. Yeah, I have a couple of years left. Yeah. And what, what happens after that? Do you stay on as an employee? Do you have an itch to make a new thing? I don't know. I haven't thought about it and I'm not going to worry about it because I feel like, we've grown, we've been able to grow the ringer so much and I'm so proud of like all the people we have and especially the way some of the people behind the scenes have really grown and taken on more stuff.
Spotify还要再经过多长时间啊？通常卖掉一家初创公司是两年左右，而这是一个四年计划。是的，我还剩下几年。之后会发生什么呢？您会留下来继续担任员工吗？还是有创业的冲动？我不知道。我还没有考虑过这个问题，也不会担心它，因为我觉得我们已经很好地发展了Ringer，而且我为我们的所有人感到骄傲，尤其是幕后的一些人已经真正成长并承担更多的事情。
And then from a Spotify standpoint, like to even think about it when we're just going back in the office. Like we had, we had a managers meeting on Monday and we had I think like 30 people in our office all together. People that work for us, right? We have like 150 employees, 140 employees at this point, 150 people in our universe. And that was the first time we'd had more than like, at least that I'd been there, that we'd had more than like 10 people in the office since like March 2020. So it's hard for me to think about what's next when I don't even feel like we've had a fair chance at just having a normal office and whole organizational situation. So hopefully that'll go back to normal.
然后从Spotify的角度来看，当我们只是回到办公室时，就像去想它一样。就像周一我们有一个经理会议，在我们的办公室里聚集了大约30个人。这些人都是给我们工作的人。我们现在有大约140到150名员工。这是自2020年3月以来，至少我在那里以来第一次有超过10人在办公室里。所以当我们甚至没有机会拥有一个正常的办公室和整个组织情况时，我很难想象下一步会发生什么。希望这种情况会恢复正常。
And then I think I want to see how the next year goes for us. A lot of people who are writers get promoted into management and turns out they're terrible at management. They were really good at being writers and they shouldn't be managers.
然后我觉得我想看看接下来一年我们的情况如何。许多作家被晋升为管理层，结果他们在管理方面非常糟糕。他们在写作方面非常出色，不应该成为经理。
Yeah. Do you like being a manager? So make you happy. I really like, I mean at this point, I'm pretty up there now. So I have like the inner circle, right? I did love the, I, Grantland, I really did like it. I think we had a smaller company obviously and I really felt and it was a different era too. You know, we probably had, I don't know, 35, 40 people, 42 people. I don't remember what the final thing was, but I felt like we were all, you know, we were just trying to push a rock uphill that whole time, but I was really proud of what we did.
哎呀，你喜欢当经理吗？让你很开心。我真的很喜欢，我的意思是我现在已经很高了。所以我有像内部圈子这样的东西，对吧？我真的很喜欢 Grantland，我觉得我们的公司比较小，而且那时候也是不同的时代。你知道的，我们可能有35、40或42个人，我不记得最后的数字了，但我觉得我们一直在拼命地推一块石头，但我真的为我们所做的事情感到非常自豪。
And I think as, as you get older and I think social media has made some of the stuff more complicated too, there's probably just more stuff that pops up now. But I still like the idea of like, can we create something from scratch? Can we, can we maintain it? Can we water the plant? Can we, can we keep getting better? Can we keep innovating? And I think from an innovation standpoint, that's the part I like the most. Like, I never want to be in the same spot that I was six months ago with anything I'm doing.
我认为随着年龄的增长和社交媒体的发展，有些事情变得更加复杂，现在可能会有更多的事情冒出来。但我仍然喜欢创造新事物的想法。我们能否从零开始创造什么？我们能否维持它？我们能否浇灌它？我们能否不断创新？从创新的角度来看，这是我最喜欢的部分。我永远不想停留在六个月前的任何事情。
And I still feel like, like, ringer films and things like that, like our video podcast stuff. Like, we're at a real position of strength now with the, with the podcast network and the website. And I just feel like across the board, we just have such good people now. So now when we think about adding anything to that, it's like, is this person really good?
我还是有这种感觉，就像是那些铃声电影和类似我们视频播客的东西。现在，我们拥有真正强大的播客网络和网站，感觉非常不错。我们的团队非常优秀，所以我们现在考虑要添加任何东西时，都会想这个人真的好吗？
And I was saying to somebody last week, it really reminds me of the spot we hit at Grantland in 2014 where it just felt like a lot of people wanted to work for us. And we had just hit this, I can't, this cool checkpoint where it was like, people knew what we were. Everybody really liked working for us and we're doing really good stuff. And people from the outside wanted to be part of that. And I feel like that's happening again.
上周我和一些人聊天的时候，我突然想起了我们在2014年在Grantland撞了一个“好位置”的情况，那时候好像好多人都想要加入我们。我们当时已经达到了一个很酷的里程碑，大家都知道我们在做什么。大家都非常喜欢为我们工作，我们也做了很棒的事情。从外部，人们也想要成为其中的一份子。我感觉现在又出现了这种情况。
Last question. Who is your dream podcast guest you haven't had? You have to answer that. I mean, it's David Letterman that's always going to be the answer. I think he seems available now. I know. It does stuff. It's weird. I'd almost be afraid to ask because I wouldn't want to fuck it up, but I think I'll be nervous.
最后一个问题是，你最想要有哪位梦想的播客嘉宾却还没请到？你必须回答。我的意思是，答案肯定是大卫·莱特曼。我觉得他现在似乎很忙。我知道，这很奇怪。我几乎有点害怕问他，因为我不想搞砸了，但我想我会紧张的。
The only time I really had like nervous energy for a podcast, it was Larry Bird, which we did in person in Indiana, and it was funny because I did a, I did an Obama podcast in the White House. I think within probably a month, one way or the other with that. And I was way more nervous for, for Brad. I just want to screw it up. So I think with Letterman, there's so much to ask and it's, but it's really tough to interview somebody who meant a lot to you. I'd feel the same way. Like Eddie Murphy would be another one. He would never do the podcast, but the people that I grew up who just had this profound influence on me.
唯一一次我真的像为一个播客紧张的时候，是Larry Bird。我们亲自在印第安纳州进行了访谈，这很有趣，因为我之前在白宫做过一个奥巴马的播客。我觉得这两个访谈之间可能只有一个月左右的时间间隔。但是我为Brad更加紧张，我只是想不要搞砸了。所以我想，对于莱特曼来说，有太多问题需要问，但是对于曾对你产生过深刻影响的人进行采访真的很难。我也会感到同样的紧张，比如埃迪·墨菲也是其中之一。虽然他永远不会参加播客，但是那些曾对我产生深刻影响的人都有类似的感觉。
And then Kimmel, Kimmel goes the other way, Kimmel, like, befriends everybody that he loved when he was a kid. He's friends with Huey Lewis and Letterman and Howard Stern, all these. He's gone a whole other way.
然后Kimmel，他反其道而行，就像和他一起长大的每个人一样，Kimmel与每个人成为朋友。他和Huey Lewis、Letterman和Howard Stern等人都是朋友。他走了一条完全不同的路。
I'm still, when I meet people like that, I still feel like I've become a 14 year old. Yeah, I feel like I'm a 14 year old again. So I think the Letterman thing would be a good challenge for us.
当我遇到那样的人时，我仍然感觉自己像一个14岁的孩子一样。嗯，我感觉自己又回到了14岁。所以我认为参加Letterman节目对我们来说是一个很好的挑战。
All right. I want to hear the Letterman interview because I really like his Netflix interviews, especially that Chipel, which is great. So I think you do a good job. Thank you. And with that, I'm going to let you go.
好的，我想听一下莱特曼的采访，因为我非常喜欢他在 Netflix 上的采访，尤其是那个 Chipel，真是太棒了。所以我认为你做得很好，谢谢你。好了，就这样，我让你走了。
I'm going to give you a little sentence. Wait, I have a question for you. Okay. I'll answer a question. When we did, what was the one we did where we wrote about? It was like two months before I left the ESPN and I did that interview with you. Wasn't it South by Southwest? That was the South by, yeah. Yeah. And we did interview about podcasts.
我要给你一个简单的句子。等等，我有一个问题问你。好的，我会回答一个问题。当我们写作时，我们写了关于什么的文章？那是我离开 ESPN 两个月前，我和你做的采访。是南方西南部吗？那是南方西南部，是的。是的，我们采访了关于播客的内容。
Yep. I watched you interview Horatio Sands who was really high. He was very high. What was your perception of where my head was at at that point? You were flingering. Did you feel like I was like on my way out?
是的，我看了你采访Horatio Sands的视频，当时他确实非常high。他非常high。那时你觉得我心里是怎么想的？你看起来有些不自在。你感觉我快要离开了吗？
Yeah. You were fuming. You could tell. But you were trying to play it and you were very, you were very concerned about the way ESPN was going to treat you, but also your staff. That was a big concern. And also, so you were, I don't think you were 100% sure, but I also talked to Jimmy because he was doing something at South by two.
嗯，你当时气得很厉害，一看就能看出来。但你还是试图掩饰，并且非常关心 ESPN 会如何对待你和你的员工。这是一个很大的问题。所以你并不是完全确定，但我还和吉米聊了聊，因为他也在南西部做一些事情。
And I talked to him about you and he said, oh, he's leaving. I said, well, I don't know what he is. He says he doesn't, not sure because no, no, he's leaving because Disney treats their talent like shit. By the way, he's still working for Disney, but he was convinced you were out.
我和他谈到了你的事情，他说，哦，他要离开了。我说，我不知道他在干什么。他说他不确定，因为迪士尼对待他们的人才很差。顺便说一下，他仍然在迪士尼工作，但他确信你已经离开了。
Yeah, I deep down was convinced, but I still had such, I'd such ties to some of the people we had that I still felt like near the end that is there some way to save this, even though I was like 90% out the door. But I think I've been vindicated by some of the other exits. I think it worked out and you've had Bob Iger on your podcast.
是的，我内心深处确信，但我仍然与我们身边的一些人有着联系，所以即使接近结束时，我仍然觉得是否有办法挽救这一切，即使我已经快走了90%。但我认为其他人员的离开证明了我的正确性。我认为这是成功的，您也邀请了鲍勃·伊格在您的播客中露面。
Yeah, it all worked out. It was probably time for me to go and it was what it is, but I remember when I did that interview with you, I was so mad because I think it was right after we found out we just weren't getting any more headcount. I just felt like the site, I didn't feel like it was sustainable how hard everyone was working. I could see, that was the first time I was like, you pretty much had steam coming out of years.
是的，一切都解决了。可能是我该走了，就是这样，但我记得当我接受采访时非常生气，因为那是我们得知我们再也得不到任何预算的消息后不久。我感觉网站不可持续，每个人都工作得那么辛苦。我看到了，那是我第一次看见你耳朵里冒着蒸汽。
I remember we were wandering around the four seasons trying to find a space to do the interview and we finally sat down and just, yeah, it was great. Yeah, it was weird that they didn't see what we had going, but I think they do now at least. They figured it out.
我记得我们当时正在四季酒店四处寻找一个采访的场所，最后我们坐下来了，感觉非常好。他们不理解我们正在做的事情，这感觉有些奇怪，但我认为现在他们至少是明白了，他们明白我们在做什么了。
Thank you Bill Simmons.
谢谢你，Bill Simmons。
Peter.
请翻译以下英文，用类似于中文母语者的方式对话。必要时请对Peter重新表述。
原文：Peter is very good at playing the piano.
翻译：Peter弹钢琴很棒。