The REAL Story of Elon Musk with Walter Isaacson

Hey everybody Rob now we're here and today we have a great fortune to be joined by Walter Isaacson I'm sure needs no introduction especially this week with everything going on But Walter of course written the Leonardo da Vinci biography Einstein Plenty more Steve Jobs and of course most recently joining that list Elon Musk So thank you Walter for joining us today. Please have you on the podcast It's great to be with you Rob and I've been listening to a podcast for two years now. It's helped a lot That's awesome. I'm glad it could be helpful and I'm excited to see that too because a lot of times You know we're in the Tesla space dealing with people that don't have a lot of context and obviously you've got more Context now than anyone so we're excited to learn about it

大家好，罗布在这里，今天我们有幸邀请到沃尔特·艾萨克森加入我们。相信大家对他并不陌生，尤其是这个星期发生的一切。而沃尔特当然是写过列奥纳多·达·芬奇传记、爱因斯坦、还有很多其他人物的传记，其中当然包括史蒂夫·乔布斯。最近，他又加入了这个名单的埃隆·马斯克。所以沃尔特，非常感谢你今天能加入我们。很高兴能在播客中和你一起聊天。

I think the great place to start is just you know, how has this experience been over the last couple of years for you? You know, it's been a wild ride when I started, you know a little over two years ago I Did it because of Tesla and bringing us into the era of electric vehicles and the idea of sustainable energy being such a mission for him and also of course rockets and how he was being able to bring us into a new era of space adventure travel and it's of commercial travel And then you know a year and so into it he decides to buy Twitter So it became a lot more of a roller coaster, but as you'll see from the book I wanted to keep the focus on all the things he's focused on and so there's a whole lot about Tesla and especially about the Manufacturing process and how the development of new products happens how Fritz von Holshausen does the design and I didn't want to make it just a book about Twitter turning into acts. I really kept the focus on SpaceX and Tesla

我认为一个很好的开始就是，你知道，在过去的几年里，这段经历对你来说如何？你知道，当我开始的时候，已经有两年多了，这是一段疯狂的旅程，我这样做是因为特斯拉把我们带入了电动汽车时代，可持续能源对他来说是如此重要的使命，当然还有火箭以及他如何将我们带入新的太空探险旅行时代和商业旅行。然后在一年后，他决定收购Twitter，所以这变得更加像过山车。但正如你在书中所看到的，我想把重点放在他专注的所有事物上，所以关于特斯拉和特别是有关制造过程以及新产品开发过程的部分非常多，弗里茨·冯·霍尔森如何进行设计。我不想让这本书只是关于Twitter的变化，而是真正专注于SpaceX和特斯拉。

Yeah, for sure. I mean it was definitely an interesting period of time for you with some unexpected twists I'm sure going into it, but I think the book did a great job. I finished it last night by the way Then try to brush at the last couple of days

是的，当然。我的意思是，对你来说，那肯定是一个充满意外转折的有趣时期，但我觉得这本书做得很好。顺便一提，我昨晚读完了。接下来试着忘掉过去几天的事吧。

What chapters? Yeah, so I think it's like 90 chapters or something and 600 in some pages so chapters I hope are bite-sized and Race along pretty fast. It definitely keeps it moving. I mean, it's a long book There's a lot covered here, but it almost feels like I don't know if you've felt this way writing it But it almost feels like maybe not each of the chapters could be its own book But certainly, you know, I feel like it could be almost like three or four times times this, you know size and how did you kind of Should have been three times longer We might be a little bit in the enthusiast crowd here in this space so

哪些章节？嗯，我想大约有90个章节或者类似的数量，书有600多页，所以希望每个章节都是简短易读的，并且情节发展得相当快。它确实很有节奏感。我的意思是，这本书很长，内容涵盖了很多，但感觉上它似乎不是每个章节都能成为一本独立的书，但肯定可以扩展到三到四倍的大小。你写作的时候是否有同样的感受呢？如果这本书是三倍长可能更好。我们可能是在这个领域的爱好者之中的一小部分，所以可能有点偏动迷了。

Which I think is important to keep in mind as we have this I think a lot of your other conversations will be you know Pretty general about just you know What was it like for Elon and Twitter and you know some of us upbringing and stuff like that and we'd love to talk about that stuff too

我认为这一点很重要牢记在心，因为我们有这个想法，我认为你们的其他对话可能会相当泛泛而谈，关于伊隆在Twitter上的经历，以及我们中的一些人的成长经历等等，我们也愿意谈谈这些话题。

But I think one of the things I'm most curious about is maybe some things outside of the book because I do expect most of the audience Is gonna read this I certainly would recommend that I'll put the link in the description How how did you kind of feel going into this? How did your perception of Elon of these companies? Maybe change or not change over time I'll just be kind of curious to hear your thoughts as you've gone through this, you know pretty pretty, you know in-depth experience

但我认为我最感兴趣的一件事可能是书本之外的一些事情，因为我预计大部分观众都会阅读这本书，我肯定会推荐给他们，我会在描述中放上链接。你在开始阅读这本书时是怎么感觉的？随着时间的推移，你对埃隆和他的公司的看法有没有改变？我只是很好奇地想听听你的想法，因为你经历了这段相当详细的体验。

One of the first things that changed was my understanding of his feel for engineering and especially for engineering Assembly lines and factories as well as products. I thought you know like in the industrialist He probably had delegated a lot to his engineers But more than 70% of the time when I was walking around with him It was at meetings about products in which he drilled down deeply or walking the assembly line in Fremont or in Giga, Texas and figuring out How to be disruptive how to make things work faster and I guess I didn't realize the intensity of his focus on detailed engineering problems

一开始改变的是我对于他对工程学，特别是对于工程装配线、工厂以及产品方面的感知理解。我以为，像这样的实业家一般会把许多事情交给工程师们处理。然而，在我和他一起走动的70%以上的时间里，我们参加的会议大多是关于产品的，他会深入细节，或者我们会在弗里蒙特或德克萨斯卡特山组装线上走动，探讨如何进行颠覆性革新，如何使事情更加快速运转。我猜我之前没有意识到他对于详细工程问题的专注程度有多么强烈。

Yeah, I think that's one thing that was striking to me even kind of knowing that I think Elon is Doesn't quite maybe get as much credit for the engineering side of what he's accomplished You know there's of course people that say Elon is just You know some some person that came in wealthy to America and a good investor or something like that right and obviously You go through the history of that and the emerald mines and all that stuff I'm sure you know I'm glad to see that that was covered and some clarity given to those topics But I think it was striking just you know how detail oriented is Elon is and how he really is you know the chief engineer of these companies and is Driving the engineering teams. It's not just you know him going in there and Asking for updates or anything like that. It's it's really him getting in there and leading the decision-making process

是的，我认为有一点令我印象深刻，尽管我知道埃隆在工程方面的成就可能没有得到太多的赞誉。当然，有人会说埃隆只是一个有钱的来到美国的人，一个好投资者之类的。显然，你要了解那段历史和翡翠矿以及其他相关事情。我很高兴看到关于这些话题的报道，以及对其进行了一些澄清。但是，我觉得令人印象深刻的是埃隆有多么注重细节，以及他真的是这些公司的首席工程师，驱动着工程团队。他不仅仅是去那里询问最新情况之类的。他真的是进入其中，主导决策过程。

And that's kind of what you're saying. You look like that's why I was so cool to be with him and sometimes it was really big things Like let's make the cybertruck at a stainless steel I mean he I think he said to me at one point stainless steel and I should go get a hotel room together I'm so in love with it but he was doing it of course with the the Starship the big rocket and he also understood how stainless steel could create the echoes exoskeleton for the cybertruck Until those are really big decisions that he makes but I also was just fascinated by even the smaller decisions about You know the butyl patches and the floor of the car and to what extent they were necessary and of course as you know Pretty well, but I go through it in the book that famous mantra called the algorithm Which is the five-step process for manufacturing which begins with question every requirement

这也是你的意思吧。你看起来就像是因为这个原因才和他在一起，有时候是一些很重大的决定，比如用不锈钢来制造赛博卡车，我想他在某个时候和我说过要一起去找一个不锈钢酒店房间，他对此非常痴迷。当然，他是借用了“Starship”这个大型火箭的概念，并且他也知道不锈钢如何成为赛博卡车的外骨骼。这些都是他做出的非常重要的决策。但是，我也对一些更小的决策感到着迷，比如对胶带和车辆底部的处理，以及它们是否是必需的。当然，你也很了解这一点，但是我在书中详细讲述了它，这个著名的算法，也就是制造过程的五个步骤，其中的第一步就是质疑每个要求。

Now, you know, we've got a world now We have a country that was settled by risk takers whether they came across on the Mayflower or they came across the Rio Grande River And people have been adventuresome in this country But nowadays Especially when it comes to manufacturing and making products We got more referees and we have risk takers, you know, we've got more people lawyers and regulators than we have innovators and people pushing the envelope and so what I try to do in this book is To show how he pushes the envelope, especially when it comes to full self-driving There's a chapter at the very end which I guess you've seen on that Amazing decision just about six months ago to say let's quit making it a rules-based full self-driving system based on coding in Hundreds of thousands of rules and let's make it a human imitation machine learning thing based on feeding the computers visual data video Really good people driving and what they do in each situation

现在，你得知道，我们现在有了一个世界。我们有一个由冒险家建立起来的国家，不论他们是乘坐五月花号渡海而来，还是越过里奥格兰德河来到这里。在这个国家，人们一直都充满冒险精神。但是现在，特别是在制造和生产产品方面，我们有了更多的裁判和决策者，你知道的，我们拥有的律师和监管者比我们创新者和敢于挑战现状的人还多。所以，在这本书中，我试图展示他如何挑战常规，尤其是在全自动驾驶方面。在最后一个章节里，我想你已经看到了一个令人惊叹的决定，大约在六个月前，他们决定不再采用基于编码的基于规则的全自动驾驶系统，而是基于机器学习的模拟人类行为的系统，通过给计算机提供视觉数据和优秀驾驶员的行为来实现。

Yeah, what's your I mean this is maybe a little bit too in detail, but what's your kind of perception? I'm sure you got a chance to maybe experience, you know FSD and see the evolution of it over the over the couple of years that you've been following it What's what's kind of your sense of just the program in general and you know how how important that is to eat on this time And how he manages those things and I know it's a broad question, but I'd be curious to your thoughts

是的，你的意思是......这可能有点太详细了，但你的看法是什么？我确定你有机会在过去几年里体验过全自动驾驶技术，并见证了其发展。你对整个项目有什么感觉？你认为这对于现在来说有多重要，以及他是如何管理这些事情的？我知道这是一个笼统的问题，但我很想听听你的想法。

Yeah, Musk is obviously obsessed with full self-driving. He has been since Autonomy day I think in 2019 when he really got disruptive He's also been wrong in this timetable I think I can go back to 2016 in the book and show you a quote from every single year in which he said Full self-driving is about a year away But as he says, you know, he's somebody who's able to turn the impossible into the something that's merely very late And we're still a bit I think a couple years away from full self-driving But when I saw what was happening with FSD 12 Including the machine learning component and doing it by By Learning how human drivers handle also such a situation. It seemed to me I haven't driven it yet. My Tesla is not yet downloaded it but it seemed to me that it's a smoother ride and It's a thing that will start getting better exponentially so Whether it's a year from now or three years from now the world gets Transform because as must says when we talk about it in the book and he describes it What I just talking about self-driving being a little bit more convenient for you so you can Multitask when you commute to work we're talking about changing the whole nature perhaps of car ownership Which is you even need to own a car or do you just summon one a robo taxi whenever you need to go somewhere? So he transforms things just like Steve Jobs transform thing. He transformed the electrical vehicle industry he transformed reusable rockets and we you know he did it with Low-Earth orbit satellites getting the internet and recreating it in outer space and this along with optimists the robot and nora link are things that are Going to be enormously transformative not just making our lives a little bit better But changing the nature of our lives

是的，马斯克显然对完全自动驾驶非常着迷。我认为从2019年的 Autonomy day 开始，他就真正开始引起了不小的震动。在这个时间之前，他对时间表也是错误的，我想我可以回溯到2016年的书中，向你展示他每年都说全自动驾驶大约只有一年的时间。但正如他所说，他是一个能够将不可能变成只是相对晚一点的事情的人。而我们离完全自动驾驶还有一些距离，我想大概还需要几年时间。但当我看到FSD 12的情况时，包括机器学习组件和通过学习人类驾驶员处理这样的情况。我还没有驾驶过它，我的特斯拉还没有下载它，但在我看来，它是一次更平稳的行驶。它是一件事情，会以指数形式变得更好，无论是从现在开始还是三年后，这个世界都会发生变革。正如马斯克在书中所说，我所描述的自动驾驶只是为了让你的生活更加便利，这样你可以在上下班的路上进行多任务处理。我们所谈论的是改变整个汽车拥有方式的本质问题，你是否真的需要拥有一辆汽车，或者只需在需要去某个地方时召唤一辆无人出租车？所以他像史蒂夫·乔布斯一样改变了事物。他改变了电动汽车行业，他改变了可重复使用的火箭技术，以及他利用低地球轨道卫星将互联网重新创造于外太空中。这些以及未来的乐观派机器人和神经链接将会带来巨大的变革，不仅仅让我们的生活更好，还将改变我们生活的本质。

Yeah, you bring up optimists and I think that's something that a lot of people are fascinated with and probably Most readers of the book, you know, maybe don't even realize is something that Tesla is working on Is would you say that's all? Yeah? The Raptors on optimists I'm in love with optimists and there's a wonderful picture of his son his little son ex shaking optimist's hand and even in the The whole turmoil of buying Twitter last, you know, August September October I just remember riding around with them and his lawyers are talking about Twitter all the time And he's going to see a shock and going to see Milan and going to that Fremont Headquarters and watching the steps that optimists is taking and even saying hey I wanted, you know doing the money Python thing on his phone looking at the money Python so he walks get so it was something that He was clearly caring about and every little detail cared about

是的，你提到了乐观主义者，我认为很多人对此非常着迷，而且可能很多读者甚至没有意识到特斯拉正在从事这方面的工作。你会说这就是全部吗？是的，乐观主义让我着迷，书中还有一张他的儿子与乐观主义者握手的美好照片，即使在去年8、9、10月份购买Twitter的一整段混乱时期中，我还记得和特斯拉一起四处行驶时，他的律师们一直在谈论Twitter，他去看望乐观主义者，去米兰，去非蒙特总部，关注着乐观主义者所采取的步骤，甚至还调侃地拿着手机看着英国喜剧团体"黑子"的钱德勒散文剧作，他很关心细节。

Yeah, and then on time management, which is kind of related to you know FSD optimist you mentioned Twitter here I think that's something that people are always fascinated about and curious about how Elon manages these these things Especially during this period of time where Twitter was so heavily involved I mean obviously you cover this in the book But kind of what's your sense of how he long how Elon divides and and manages all you know, he's six companies now How's he how's he doing this? About a year ago made a mistake and said he likes to multitask that he can multitask being with his mind on optimists and then his mind on the Raptor engine for Starship and then his mind on uploading video for Twitter Actually, the correct way I think to put it is that he serially focuses maniacally on task after task after task and When he is focused say on why a valve and a Raptor engine is leaking methane Even if it's the same night that the Twitter board just accepted his offer to buy it He will focus for an hour or two hours on that problem and then his mind shifts and it might be on the next problem and It's almost Part and parcel of a larger thing which is he has personality mood shifts all the time He'll be in giddy mode. Then he'll be an inspiring mode And sometimes they'll get into a very dark mode, but his mind shifts It's as if he's batch processing rather than parallel processing sometimes

是的，然后关于时间管理，这与FSD乐观主义有点相关，你提到了Twitter，我想人们总是对埃隆如何管理这些事情感到着迷和好奇，尤其是在Twitter如此频繁参与的这段时间。我是说，显然你在书中也有提到，但是你对埃隆是如何分配和管理他现在的六家公司的呢？大约一年前，他犯了一个错误，说他喜欢同时处理多个任务，他可以在想着将设计Raptor发动机的事的时候脑子里同时处理着Starship星船的事，然后还要处理上传Twitter视频的事。实际上，我认为正确的说法是他会一次又一次地专注地处理一项任务。当他专注于为什么Raptor发动机的一个阀门会泄漏甲烷这样的问题时，即使是在Twitter董事会刚刚接受他的收购提议的那个晚上，他也会专注地花上一两个小时解决这个问题，然后他的注意力转移，可能会转移到下一个问题上。这几乎是他性格的一部分，他的情绪变化经常发生。他会处于欢快的状态，然后又处于激励的状态，有时候他会陷入非常沮丧的状态，但他的思维方式会变化。好像有时候他是批量处理任务，而不是并行处理。

Yeah, I think that's I don't know if it was crimes that put it that way or maybe just time or some someone put it that way I think Ron should get credit. I always try to give people credit.

是的，我认为是这样的，我不知道是什么罪行让他这样，或许只是时间，或者是某个人让他这样，我认为罗恩应该得到赞赏。我总是试图给予别人认可。

She says yeah, that's a bad. Yeah You can tell when he's batch processing sure that's super interesting Sure, that's super interesting in general is there is there something that kind of sticks out over the last couple of years as Maybe your favorite story from the book or maybe maybe it's not in the book But something that just kind of sticks out as as an interesting moment for you over the last couple years

她说是的，那真的太糟糕了。是的，你可以从他的批量处理中看出来，那真的很有趣。当然，总的来说，那真的非常有趣。在过去几年里，是否有什么让你觉得很特别的事情？也许是书中的故事，或者也许不在书中，但是在过去几年中让你觉得有趣的时刻。

Well, I think There are just many times when so much was happening I can there scenes in April of last year one the mezzanine of gigafactory It's just open sort of in fact. They're about to have a party to open gigafactory kimbles there they're doing a drone show and Elon is flying off to the Air Force Academy for a quick speech But he's also dealing with his lawyers because he's bought up Twitter stock And he's been offered a board seat, but he's thinking I'm not sure I want a board seat I might want to just take control He's got a lot of his friends around him Ken Howrey others and Tony Ogracius are there and he's also dealing with as We walked the line of gigafactory So a station that's taking 90 seconds and he keeps telling the person in charge that station You got to get it down to 60 seconds or your resignation is accepted and they finally do and you know he's gonna make that thing right and and Then even that night at the Pershing a restaurant in Club in Austin having quiet dinner His mother's there Grimes is there his son Griffin and Saxon are there so are a couple of other friends And they're talking about buying Twitter I could give you 20 nights like that last December 2nd when he was meeting in my hometown in New Orleans with Maccran But the Twitter files were being released by Matt Taiby and then he was texting Barry Weiss to get her to come in and do the Twitter File but that night he was also meeting with Daval Schroff back in California, but he had to keep delaying it because he was flying back from New Orleans in the macron meeting and Daval Was showing him really for the first time all the coding for this new human imitation Form of full self-driving and then after a while everybody from Daval Schroff to his Cousins James Musk to Barry Weiss who's come in to do the Twitter files. They're all Rummaging through the Twitter headquarters Sort of the barbarians are at the gates and they're Rummaging through the merch or they're Liberating the merch and he's holding up the stay woke t-shirts So it was night whether it be early April or late early December Where 15 things are happening at once and he is energized by the storm?

嗯，我认为有很多时候发生了很多事情，我可以在去年四月的吉盖工厂楼中层的场景中看到。实际上，它只是开放的。他们即将举办一场聚会来启动吉盖工厂，金布尔斯在那里，他们进行无人机表演，埃隆正飞往空军学院做一个快速演讲。但他也在处理自己的律师事务，因为他收购了Twitter股票，并且被提供了一个董事席位，但他在考虑我不确定我是否想要一个董事席位，我可能只想掌控一切。他周围有许多朋友，肯·豪里等人也在那里，他还在处理吉盖工厂一线的问题。有一个工作站需要90秒完成，他一直告诉负责的人，你必须把时间缩短到60秒，否则你的辞职将被接受，他们最终达成了目标，他知道他会解决这个问题的。那天晚上，在奥斯汀的帕金餐厅俱乐部，他和他妈妈、葛莱姆斯、他的儿子格里芬和萨克森还有几个朋友一起享受宁静的晚餐。他们还在讨论是否购买Twitter。去年12月2日，他在我在新奥尔良的家乡与马克龙会面，同时，Twitter的文件正在被马特·塔伊比发布，然后他给巴里·韦斯发送短信，让她前来做Twitter的文件。那天晚上，他还与达瓦尔·施罗夫在加利福尼亚见面，但由于他要从新奥尔良飞回来参加和马克龙的会面，他不得不不断推迟。达瓦尔给他展示了这种新型人类模拟全自动驾驶的所有编码，这是他第一次看到。过了一段时间，从达瓦尔·施罗夫到他的堂兄詹姆斯·马斯克再到前来做Twitter文件的巴里·韦斯，他们都在Twitter总部里翻找东西，或者解放纪念品，他拿着“保持清醒”T恤。无论是四月初还是十二月初的那个夜晚，都有15件事情同时发生，他被暴风雨的活力所激励。

Yeah, that's I mean that's a theme that comes through a lot in the book of of there's periods of time You talk specifically about you know periods of time in 2021 where it seems like everything's going great, right? And then you know is you long Uncontfortable and great. Yeah, yeah, you want kind of becomes uncomfortable during those periods and has to you know Push the chips all in again live on the edge do something, you know pretty drastic obviously with Twitter and it is your sense that that's kind of been a recurring theme and Perhaps will continue to be a recurring thing

是的，我的意思是，在这本书中，这是一个经常出现的主题，有一段时间你特别谈到，就是在2021年的某些时期，一切似乎都很顺利，对吗？然后你知道，你会感到不舒服和振奋。是的，是的，在这些时期，你会感到不舒服，并且不得不再次把所有筹码押在边缘生活上，做一些非常激烈的事情，显然，通过Twitter。您认为这是一个经常出现的主题，也许将继续成为一个经常出现的事情吗？

Recurring you've quoted his brother Kimball very early on he says Elon is a drama magnet. He's made for the storm. He's not made for the calm. He's a drama magnet and Kimball said and that's the theme of his life And when I talked to musk about it Elon about it He's like yeah, I just can't settle back and savor You know any the smell the flowers. I've got to put all my chips back on the table I've got to be back all in and it's almost the stress the storm that Intergises him and sometimes in a dark way. I mean he's in relationships to you know anybody who dates Amber heard Is too much in my opinion. Maybe I'm different. I've been married for you know almost 40 years But you know he's energized in his personal life and his professional life by drama for sure Make sure that it definitely makes for a good book. That's for sure and

他的兄弟Kimball在很早的时候就说过，埃隆是一个喜爱戏剧的人。他就是为风暴而生，不适合平静的生活。他就是一个戏剧磁铁，Kimball说，这就是他一生的主题。当我和马斯克谈到这个问题时，埃隆说，是啊，我就是无法放松下来享受生活中的美好，我必须把所有筹码重新押上赌桌，我必须全力以赴，这几乎成了他的压力和风暴的动力，有时候甚至是以一种消极的方式。我的意思是，他的感情关系也是如此，你知道，和任何和Amber Heard约会的人对我来说都太过了。也许我和他不同，我已经结婚将近40年了。但是可以确定的是，他在个人生活和职业生涯中都受到戏剧的激励，毫无疑问，这绝对会产生一本好书。

Going you know where things go from here You know I don't know if you have any plans to kind of continue the story at some point But obviously this isn't the end of it and you got to stop at some point publish a book at 600 pages but as you kind of wrapped it up and You know where we're the place that we're in right now. It seems like Twitter is maybe a little bit more stable Obviously, there's there's still a lot going on plenty of drama, but I'm kind of curious on just what your thoughts are on the trajectory from here and Maybe that compare that versus where we were I don't know a year ago where things kind of were I Guess kind of in the fire, you know more fully than it. It seems like things are getting a little bit more stable for Elon right now

你知道，我们从这里出发后的发展方向。我不知道你是否计划在某个时候继续这个故事，但显然这并不是结束，你必须在某个时候停下来出版一本600页的书。当你总结这一切，你知道我们目前所处的地方，似乎Twitter可能稍微稳定了一些。显然，还有很多事情发生，很多戏剧，但我很好奇你对未来的轨迹有什么想法，也许你可以将其与一年前的情况做个比较，当时的情况似乎更加混乱，而现在对于埃隆来说事情似乎更加稳定一些。

Boy, I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing right, you know stability Yeah, I think it was great that he hired Linda Yacareno, but as you saw at the end of my book and then you I congratulate you Thank you for reading it. Yeah in March, you know right learn He's about to launch starship and right when he's about to hire Linda Yacareno He asked me to come to Austin I'd been with him for about a week and you know I usually would spend a week just traveling around with him when they go home to New Orleans and Teach a Tulane or take a little break and write he said you got to come back And I something I need to talk to you about but I don't want to do it on the phone And it was about starting an AI company not just an AI company That's going to compete with open AI which he had helped found with Sam Altman doing large language model generative you know predictive AI with based on text But real world AI based on video data from you know billion frames or so a week from Tesla drivers and Optimus eventually and combining the AI that can come from real world data and from language data and so Just when I thought all six companies are actually chugging away. He says I'm gonna start a seventh company So I think in this book I mean you know the book I could have waited 30 more years to write it I think in this book by the end you get who he is and you see him doing all these things and whatever he does in Two years, which is probably start some other company on something You'll get it. It'll be part of the theme. It'll be you'll say I understand the trajectory

男孩，我不知道那是好事还是坏事，你知道稳定性。是的，我认为他雇佣Linda Yacareno是个很好的决定，但正如你在我的书的结尾所看到的，我祝贺你。谢谢你的阅读。是的，在三月份，你知道，他正准备推出“星舰”，正当他准备雇佣Linda Yacareno时，他要求我去奥斯汀。我和他在一起大约一周，你知道，我们通常会花一周的时间一起旅行，当他回到新奥尔良的家时，在Tulane大学教书或者休息一下再写。他说：“你必须回来，我有事情要和你谈，但我不想通过电话说。”这件事是关于创办一家AI公司，不仅仅是一家可以与他曾经与Sam Altman共同创立的open AI竞争的AI公司，而是基于文本进行大型语言模型生成AI，而是基于从特斯拉司机那里获取的视频数据和最终优化的现实世界AI结合起来，可以从现实世界数据和语言数据中获取的AI。就在我以为这六家公司都在一直做着进展时，他说他要创办第七家公司。我认为在这本书中，你会了解到他是谁，看到他做了所有这些事情，无论他在未来两年里做什么，可能会在某个领域创办另一家公司，你会理解它。这将成为主题的一部分，你会说我明白了他的轨迹。

Yeah, and I think that's what the book does a good job of of really setting the base of the understanding both from just Elon's upbringing and then like you said things become recurring themes throughout the book and You know my perception of it is There obviously it's great to have more details, but there wasn't anything necessarily that was like Oh, I'm shocked by this or I'm surprised by this like Elon. I think lives pretty transparently and I think people that follow Elon closely are going to read the book and also You know, maybe not necessarily be too surprised by what it is even though there are things in there that could be a little bit shocking to to some

是的，我认为这本书在很大程度上很好地奠定了对伊隆成长背景的理解基础，就像你说的那样，这些内容在整本书中反复出现。我的感觉是，当然拥有更多细节是很好的，但并没有什么特别让人吃惊或者让人感到惊讶的事情，伊隆的生活相当透明，那些密切关注他的人们读这本书时可能也不会对其中的内容感到太过惊讶，尽管其中可能有些内容对某些人来说可能有点震撼。

Yeah, I mean maybe people loosen every one of your podcast be too talked by things But even even after following for a year or so I was like surprised by a lot of the stories because they're so colorful and also the word you use which is transparency I mean, I'm sitting there in every meeting when he's trying to figure out Robotaxing and whether or not to have a $25,000 Car with a steering wheel a global inexpensive car based on the same platform or whether You know even his dealings with The women in his life and the children in his life. He was I think Consciously trying to be more transparent than anybody has ever been before to a biographer But the possible exception of dr. Johnson hanging around Boswell

是的，我的意思是也许人们每一集的播客都会因为一些事情而感到困惑，但即使经过了一年左右的追随，我对很多故事还是感到惊讶，因为它们非常丰富多彩，还有你使用的透明度这个词，我的意思是，当他试图解决自动驾驶出租车的问题时，我坐在每一次会议上，研究是否应该推出一辆带有转向盘的2.5万美元的全球廉价车，基于同一平台，或者与他生活中的女人和孩子的交往，我认为他有意识地试图比以往任何一位传记作者更加透明，除了博斯韦尔陪伴约翰逊博士这种可能的例外情况。

Sure, I mean we've heard Elon say, you know, some lives the best disinfectant I don't think that's a quote from him, but certainly a quote that he likes and I feel like is applicable to you So I mean once well, I don't know if this is even a great question, but It's there's probably way too much gray area for it, but Probably leads me into another question that I have got to you, but do you do you feel like Elon's a good person?

当然，我是说我们听过埃隆说过，你知道，有些人生最好的消毒剂。我不认为这是他的名言，但肯定是他喜欢的一句名言，我觉得它适用于你。我是说，这可能不是一个很好的问题，但也许有太多灰色地带了。但这可能会引出我另一个问题，所以我想问你，你觉得埃隆是一个好人吗？

You know that is such a People say did you like him? Is he nice? Is he good? There's so many multiple layers of mosque that It takes the complexity of a narrative to show his goodness and in my opinion some of his darkness Yeah, I do think That he is motivated by epic good Quest almost as if he's still the child sitting in the corner of the bookstore You know lonely and reading the comic books about the heroes and they're trying to save the world So he is a good person with a vision on humanity Which is let's try to make sure that human consciousness endures Let's make sure that we have energy that's sustainable on this planet and let's make sure we become a Space-faring civilization that goes to Mars and other planet and now's our noble missions Epic missions and first I thought they were just the you know pontificating for podcasts or pep talks for teams rallies But you'd say I'm often enough. I realize this is which driving him not being driven by money for example

你知道，这是人们常说的。你喜欢他吗？他是个好人吗？他做得好吗？有许多层面需要展示他的善意，而且在我看来，他也有一些黑暗面。是的，我认为他受到了史诗般的善意探索的驱使，好像他仍然是坐在书店角落里的孩子，孤独地阅读关于英雄拯救世界的漫画书。所以他是一个有远见的好人，他的目标是让人类意识延续下去。让我们确保地球上有可持续发展的能源，让我们成为一个能够到达火星和其他星球的航天文明。这是我们的崇高使命。起初，我以为这只是他在播客中夸夸其谈或者是为团队集会激励士气而说的话。但当我经常听到这些时，我意识到这是推动他的力量，并不是被金钱驱动。

I mean if you're totally driven by greed and money and helping yourself, you know start a rocket company You don't start an electric vehicle company when Ford and GM have just totally gotten out of the business. You don't buy Twitter so in Focusing on what he thinks are the epic missions of humanity That is his Quest and I think it's a Well-motivated Thus good quest now. Let me put the caveat in is he's so focused on those missions That when he's around people Sometimes who aren't say clicking on all cylinders are getting I guess I shouldn't use cylinders as a medical but you know who are not firing on all engines He can be brutal to people he can be very not nice to the people who are Around him or he can be very cold. He can be very callous So when you talk about being a good person I know good people who are always Caring that the person in front of them really likes them that they're tending to the emotional needs of those around him That they're nurturing and Ben Franklin was a bit that way John Adams called him insinuating Which I don't think was meant to be a compliment Mark doesn't sit there fretting about the psychological well-being and safety and nurturing of the people You know around him He sits there focusing on the need to pursue the mission with an urgent intensity And I think that's what draws a lot of criticism for Elon is his priority being more broad than the individual and Obviously that can put stress on on the individual when Elon feels like that individual isn't Like you say firing on all engines to Bring things forward for for humanity really That's how you're talking about it look.

我的意思是，如果你完全受贪婪和金钱的驱使，只关心自己，你就会创办一家火箭公司。福特和通用汽车刚刚退出了电动车业务，你就不会开办一家电动车公司。你也不会收购Twitter，专注于他认为是人类的史诗使命。这就是他的追求，我认为这是一个很有动力的目标。现在让我提出一个警告，他在专注于这些使命时，有时在与人交往时，对那些状态不佳的人，或者说不“引擎全开”的人，可能会很无情，对周围的人不友好。他可能会非常冷漠。所以当你谈论一个好人时，我认识一些总是关心别人是否喜欢他们，是否关心周围人的情感需求，是否有爱心。本富兰克林在某种程度上是这样的，约翰·亚当斯称他为"暗示诡计"，我认为这并不是称赞。马克不会坐在那里为周围人的心理健康、安全和培育而忧虑。他会全身心地专注于迫切地追求使命的需要。我认为这就是为什么埃隆会受到很多批评的原因，因为他的优先事项更加广泛，不局限于个人。显然，这给个人带来了压力，当埃隆觉得这个人无法像你所说的“引擎全开”来推动事物向前发展，真正为人类做贡献时。就是这样你所说的情况。

I mean I remember I can give you a dozen times You've read some of them in the book Like in Boca Chica down on the south tip of Texas where Starship has the launch pad a Friday night at 10 p.m. And He's walking around and I could see it's almost I'm from you know, Louisiana so I know what storm call outs coming off the golf look like and And suddenly he's looking there's only two people working on the launch pad and I can see him get dark and stormy I'm thinking it's Friday night at 10 p.m. They don't even have a launch schedule. This is and He just unloads on a guy named Andy. You'll see him in the book and I'm thinking and then he says I'm going to have a surge. I want a hundred two hundred people here by tomorrow I'm gonna we're gonna work all week. We're gonna stack Starship by the end of the week for no necessary reason. I mean Starship wasn't gonna launch for another year But that surge is Sometimes brutal to the people around him, but it was also Intergizing they got Starship stacked and so is that the sign of a good person or a kind person or a Motivated person I prefer to tell the story and let the reader sort out the different Missions that are either accomplished and sometimes the debris that's left in the wake

我是说我记得我可以给你几十次，你在书中读过其中一些，比如在得克萨斯州南端的博卡奇卡，那里是Starship的发射台，一个星期五晚上十点，他在周围走动，我能看出快要下雨了，因为我来自路易斯安那州，所以我知道高尔夫球场上风暴的样子，突然间他看到只有两个人在发射台工作，我看到天色越来越暗，有风暴的感觉，我想这是星期五晚上十点，他们甚至没有发射计划，这是...然后他对一个叫安迪的人发飙。你在书中会见到他，我想然后他说我要来一波人，明天我要一百两百人在这里，我们要工作一整周，移到星期的末尾，为了毫无必要的原因堆叠Starship。我是说Starship要再过一年才能发射，但这一波人员的增加有时对身边的人来说是残酷的，但也激励人心，他们堆叠起了Starship。所以这是一个好人、善良的人，还是一个有动力的人的标志，我更倾向于讲述这个故事，让读者对已完成的任务以及留下的残骸进行评估。

So earlier we talked about risk and and comfort and something I was kind of wondering as I read through the book and something I wonder frequently is Our comfort and progress sort of diametrically opposed to each other and and does it you want to view it that way? Well, I can tell you Elon views it that way I remember the time he walked into Twitter last October I think it was a day before he officially took over and that talking to him about Psychological comfort and how we nurture people and they're showing him the yoga studio and the artisanal coffee bar and how people get mental health days off and that we're caring about people's moods and feelings and He said he kind of gave that You've heard it that sort of quick harsh laugh You know psychological safety That's the enemy of fierce urgency And he said an urgent intensity is our new operating principle. We're gonna be all in we're gonna be hardcore And he believes you have to be hardcore to push progress And certainly the change in corporate company atmosphere from Twitter from the day he walked in That Wednesday or Thursday before he took over For the next three weeks is probably the most rapid change in corporate culture.

之前，我们谈到了风险和舒适，我在阅读书籍时也一直在思考一个问题，就是我们的舒适和进步是否截然相反，我们是否希望以这种方式看待它？埃隆告诉我他是这样看待的。我记得去年十月，他在正式接管Twitter之前的一天走进了那里，我们讨论了心理舒适以及如何关心员工，我向他展示了瑜伽室和精心调制的咖啡吧，以及员工可以获得心理假期，我们关心员工的情绪和感受。他给出了那种快速而严厉的笑声，你知道，心理安全是紧迫感的敌人。他说紧迫的强度是我们的新操作原则，我们将全情投入，我们将变得极端，而他认为为推动进步必须变得极端。从他接管Twitter的那个星期三或星期四开始，公司的氛围发生了明显的变化，在接下来的三个星期里，这可能是企业文化发生的最快速的转变。

Do I personally believe That an urgency intensity all in hard cornice is necessary for progress I've written a lot of books and yeah, you see that in Jeff Bezos You see it and Bill Gates. You see it in Steve Jobs, but I've also written about Jennifer Doudna who helped invent the tool called CRISPR that allows us to edit our own genes and She has a different style much more nurturing and the people in her lab Aren't driven by it's 10 o'clock on Friday night and you know being scared they have a more balanced life I think all of us have to decide What type of people are we what type of environment do we want to work? I talked to many people who bust jump down their throat at Tesla for example and some of them left And then some came back and one of them said to me, you know, I was I Was burned out by Elon I had to leave but then I went somewhere else and I got bored I came back because I decided I'd rather be burned out than bored I want to be part of the mission every person's got to decide which type of work environment they have and every boss Has got to decide this is the way I'm gonna structure my workplace or this is the way we're going to conduct our mission and some people are gonna do it in a more balanced kinder gentler way and They'll get a lot of good people and probably some people who are great because they don't want to work at a crazed environment But also at today if you want to work at Tesla or SpaceX or now X You got to be all in you got to be hardcore and I think both approaches I can coexist in this world

我个人是否相信，对于进步来说，迫切和强烈的紧迫感是必要的？我写了很多书，是的，在杰夫·贝佐斯、比尔·盖茨身上你可以看到这一点。你可以在史蒂夫·乔布斯身上看到这一点，但我也写过关于詹妮弗·道纳的书，她帮助发明了一种叫做CRISPR的工具，可以编辑我们自己的基因。她有一种不同的风格，更注重培养，她实验室里的人并不是因为害怕而在星期五晚上十点还在工作，他们有着更平衡的生活。我认为我们所有人都必须决定我们是哪一种人，我们想要什么样的工作环境。我和许多人谈过，他们曾经因为埃隆·马斯克的态度而受到威胁，有些人选择离开，但也有一些人回来了。其中一人对我说，你知道，我和埃隆一起工作时非常累，不得不离开，但后来去了别的地方，感到无聊，所以又回来了，因为我决定宁愿累也不要无聊，我想成为使命的一部分。每个人都必须决定他们想要哪种工作环境，每个老板都必须决定这是我将如何组织我的工作场所，或者这是我们进行任务的方式，有些人会以一种更平衡、更温和的方式来做，他们会得到很多优秀的人，也可能会有因为不愿意在一个疯狂的环境中工作而选择离开的人。但是如今，如果你想在特斯拉、SpaceX或者现在的X公司工作，你必须全身心地投入，你必须非常专注。我认为这两种方式可以在这个世界中共存。

I worked at Time magazine when it was a kind and gentle place. I also work there when you know the consultants took over and made it more hardcore. I ran CNN in a sort of kinder in gentler way and you know what I Probably was wrong. It probably needed more of a disruptor than I was when I ran it. But I'm not a disruptored heart. I just write about people who are.

我曾在《时代》杂志工作，那时它是一个友好而温和的地方。后来也在那里工作时，顾问们接管并使其更加强硬。我在CNN以一种更为友善温和的方式来管理，也许我错了。我运营时可能需要更多一个颠覆者的角色。但我不是一个专注于颠覆的人。我只是写关于那些人的事情。

Well, I think you put it well and there's multiple ways for people to succeed and companies to succeed and it's great that we've got different options and Obviously, you want takes one of the the more extreme ends of the options and we've seen the results that that is as yielded and Obviously, it's interesting some of the debris that lands in the wake. I mean, there's work is not about a trajectory and the orbit that's unblemished. There's a lot of rockets that explode and problems that haven't had Tesla factories and people who quit and Damage that I think has happened to the platform that used to be known as Twitter.

嗯，我觉得你表达得很好，人们和公司取得成功的方式有很多种，拥有不同的选择是很棒的。当然，你想选择其中更极端的选项之一，并且我们已经看到了这种选择带来的结果。显然，在这种选择的结果中，还会有一些不好的后果。我的意思是，这个世界上没有一条完美无瑕的轨迹和浑然一体的旋律。有很多火箭爆炸和问题出现，特斯拉工厂有人辞职，还有我认为曾经被称为Twitter的平台受到的损害。

So Even at the end when Starship launches and it's up for three minutes and it gets to the edge of space But then there's a problem and it crashes. It was almost a metaphor It's amazing to get this rocket up biggest thing ever sent up as a rocket or any moveable object You know, so we have you know burning debris that's landing near the launch pad Do you think that? Again, probably not the best question, but do you think that the the trajectory that that Elon is on is something that ends positively Yeah, I mean every now and then I'm thinking okay, this is not gonna end well I watch them fire 85% of the staff at Twitter within a two or three week period and I'm thinking oh man This whole thing's not gonna work and then in the morning I'd look at Twitter and there it would be sometimes a little bit glitchy But there would be with 15% of the engineers and there's that scene in the book of Christmas Eve I don't want to spoil the whole thing, but they had just told him at Twitter We can't get rid of these servers that are in a facility in Sacramento. It'll take us six months He doesn't like to hear that until he's seething he's on the airplane going back to Austin and his young cousin James says Why don't we just take him out ourselves? He turns his plane around over Nevada and lands in Sacramento on the day of Christmas Eve and They get pliers from Home Depot and they say he makes a pocket knife from his security cries open the floor of the server center while the people run the server center like a gas and he's cutting out the servers Well, that's not a simple tale. It's kind of inspiring. It's amazing. He doesn't take no for an answer But for the next two months there was a degradation of the service on Twitter It's a long way of saying that there's not going to be a smooth trajectory to success But Twitter is now turned into X and it's chugging along Starship will be launched next month. I think And we'll see The new $25,000 Global car will be transformative for Tesla and that'll be out, you know within a year Cyber trucks are starting to roll on the highways. So no, it's not going to be a smooth trajectory Upward but things tend and trend towards Surprisingly good things happening.

即使在最后，当星舰发射并且飞行了三分钟，到达太空边缘时，却发生了问题并坠毁。这几乎是个隐喻。能将这枚火箭发射成功是非常了不起的，它是有史以来最大的火箭或任何可移动的物体。你知道，我们有附近发射台附近的燃烧碎片。你觉得呢？可能不是最好的问题，但你认为埃隆所追求的轨迹最终会有积极的结果吗？是的，我是说每隔一段时间，我会想到，这不会有好结果。我看到在两三周内推特将85%的员工解雇，我想着哦，天哪，这一切都不起作用了。然后早上我看推特，它还在，有时可能稍微有些小问题，但是那里有15%的工程师，还有书中那个圣诞前夜的场景，我不想剧透整个情节，但他们刚刚告诉他在推特上我们无法除掉萨克拉门托设施中的服务器，这需要六个月。他不喜欢听到这个，于是他恼怒地坐上了飞往奥斯汀的飞机，在飞越内华达州的时候改变了航向，并在圣诞前夜的那天降落在萨克拉门托。他们从家得宝购买了钳子，他们说他用安保人员的一把小刀撬开了服务器中心的地板，而当地的人们像是气体一样逃离服务器中心。他们在切开服务器。这不是一个简单的故事，它有些鼓舞人心。这真是太令人惊奇了，他从不接受不的答案。但在接下来的两个月里，推特的服务出现了下降。这是说一条成功的轨迹不会一帆风顺的很长方式，但推特现在已经变成了X，并且一直在艰难前行。星舰将于下个月发射。我觉得会这样的。而新的价值25000美元的全球汽车将为特斯拉带来变革，它将在一年内推出。Cyber卡车已经开始在公路上行驶了。所以，不，这不会是一个顺利向上的轨迹，但事情的发展趋势是朝着令人惊讶的好事情发生。

Yeah, I mean, I love that story in the book it talked about I think you'll call it mission impossible Sacramento. So how are you referred to that server story and ultimately did end up admitting that you know that was a mistake in hindsight You mentioned the sort of the $25,000 car there robots Acci etc. You mentioned that Elon working this summer on shaving milliseconds off of the production process for For that next generation vehicle.

是的，我的意思是，我喜欢那本书中讲述的故事，我想你会称之为不可能的任务萨克拉门托。那么你是怎么提到那个服务器的故事的？最后，你是否承认，事后看那是个错误呢？你提到了那辆2.5万美元的汽车，还有机器人等等。你还提到了埃隆今年夏天要在下一代车辆的生产过程中缩短毫秒级的工作。

We've heard that that's now going to Austin. I think that's from the book as well Any other details on that and obviously One thing that interested me is of course he's gonna build a factory in Mexico Which is a great and it's somewhat convenient Austin. I mean, it's not that long of a drive and he was going to in his going to Have that be a assembly line for that next generation platform for both relative taxi and the global car But at a certain point He has this deep philosophy That your designers have to be sitting there right on the assembly line that you can't design something and then send it off to You know Asia to be manufactured Otherwise, you don't have the iterative Innovative process that comes from every hour seeing what's happening on the assembly line with problems and Successes the design is causing and the designers and the engineers are sitting there next to the factory line workers and saying okay We got to fix this little Butyl patch in the hole in the floor Or we've got to fix this piece of felt that maybe we don't need beneath the battery or we have to you know And so you end up with not only big innovation Innovation but hourly innovation and he said he couldn't do that if the first Assembly line was down in Mexico because as much as his engineers and designers are hardcore. I think he Perhaps realized correctly that is kind of hard to get all of them to move to Mexico for a year and sit in their assembly line There so he's going to do the design the line and Austin And then I'll be replicated elsewhere sure and that's something that's happening right now is that my memory correct on that? Yeah, I think they're designing almost two or three days a week there meetings that he runs that's basically Assembly and factory design meetings

我们听说，那现在要去奥斯汀了。我认为那也是从那本书中得来的。关于此事还有其他细节，显然有一件事让我感兴趣，那就是他肯定会在墨西哥建厂。这是个很好而且方便的地方。奥斯汀，我的意思是，开车过去也不算太远，他原本计划在那里建立一条生产线，用于生产出租车和全球汽车的下一代平台。但到了某个时候，他有了一种深刻的哲学观念，认为你的设计师必须坐在装配线旁边，不能仅仅设计出东西然后把它送到亚洲去生产。否则，你就没有那种每个小时在装配线上看到问题和成功所带来的反复创新过程，设计师和工程师就坐在那里，他们与工厂线上的工人一起说：“好吧，我们得修补一下地板上的这个小洞，或者修补一下电池下面可能不需要的那块毡布，或者我们得……”所以，你不仅拥有了大创新，还有小时级的创新。他说，如果第一条装配线设在墨西哥，他就无法做到这一点，因为即使他的工程师和设计师非常专注，我认为他也许正确地意识到，很难让他们全部去墨西哥待上一年并坐在他们的装配线那里。所以他打算在奥斯汀进行设计和生产线工作，然后再在其他地方进行复制，没错，这些事情正在发生，我的记忆是正确的吗？是的，我想他们几乎每周安排了两三天的设计会议，由他主持，主要涉及装配和工厂设计的会议。

Okay, all right. Well, I'm obviously we're all very curious about that and looking forward to it Walter before I let you go. I know you got to go is there anything else that you want to cover or you think we got it all? Well, there's a lot I guess maybe that's why the book is out there. Thank you for linking to it and I Think when you read a biography It's not a how to book sometimes after my jobs but people would come up to me and say I'm just like Steve Jobs I go yeah, sure as I why well somebody does something that sucks. I tell them it sucks or I can be an Wait a minute. You haven't invented the iPhone. You haven't invented the Mac and you don't have the right to do that this book is not Miss may hurt the sales, but it's not seven easy lessons to success It's about a real person with light and dark and complex strands interwoven into an amazing fabric And sometimes you want to take out some of those dark strands and say man don't do that yet yet get rid of that part of your personality but for the reader You get to decide can you take out those strands or will it unravel the whole cloth and I just tried to tell the tales You know all of them so fascinating tail after tail that help you understand the warp and the weave of that fabric that's musk All right, I think that's a great way to put it Walter Isaac I really appreciate having you on again the link will be down in the description for this book I would definitely recommend it to everyone and hopefully we'll we'll find another occasion to talk some time in the future That's our appreciate coming on. Thank you, Rob appreciate.

好的，好吧。嗯，很明显我们都非常好奇那个，并期待着沃尔特的回答。在我让你走之前，有没有其他你想提及的或者觉得我们已经涵盖了一切的事情？嗯，我想有很多，或许那就是为什么有这本书存在的原因。感谢你分享这本书的链接。我认为阅读一本传记时，它并不是一个“如何成功”的教科书，有时人们会来找我说：“我就像史蒂夫·乔布斯一样”，然后我说：“是的，当然，为什么？”他们说：“因为有些事情很糟糕，我告诉他们这很糟糕。或者有时我会说：等一下，你还没有发明iPhone，你还没有发明Mac，你没有权利这样做。”这本书并不完美，它可能会对销售产生一些负面影响，但它不是“七个轻松成功的课程”的教材。它是关于一个真实的人，有光明和黑暗，有复杂的细节交织而成的令人惊叹的纱线。有时你可能想去除其中一些黑暗细节，然后说：“人啊，别做那些事情了，先去除掉你性格中的那一部分。”但对于读者来说，你可以决定是否将这些细节排除掉，还是让整个纱线破裂。我只是尽力讲述这些故事，你知道的，所有这些令人着迷的故事，帮助你了解那个纱线的经纬。好的，我认为这是个很好的说法，沃尔特·艾萨克，再次感谢你的参与。书籍的链接将放在描述中，我强烈推荐给大家阅读，希望我们将来有机会再次交谈。我非常感激你的加入。谢谢，罗布，感谢。