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Dr. Paul Conti: How to Understand & Assess Your Mental Health | Huberman Lab Guest Series

发布时间 2023-09-06 12:00:50 来源

摘要

This is episode 1 of a 4-part special series on mental health with psychiatrist Dr. Paul Conti, M.D., who trained at Stanford School of Medicine and completed his residency at Harvard Medical School before founding his clinical practice, the Pacific Premiere Group. Dr. Conti defines mental health in actionable terms and describes the foundational elements of the self, including the structure and function of the unconscious and conscious mind, which give rise to all our thoughts, behaviors and emotions. He also explains how to explore and address the root causes of anxiety, low confidence, negative internal narratives, over-thinking and how our unconscious defense mechanisms operate. This episode provides a foundational roadmap to assess your sense of self and mental health. It offers tools to reshape negative emotions, thought patterns and behaviors — either through self-exploration or with a licensed professional. The subsequent three episodes in this special series explore additional tools to further understand and improve your mental health. #HubermanLab #Science #MentalHealth Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Waking Up: https://wakingup.com/huberman Momentous: https://livemomentous.com/huberman Huberman Lab Social & Website Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://hubermanlab.com/neural-network Dr. Paul Conti Website: https://drpaulconti.com Pacific Premier Group: https://pacificpremiergroup.com Trauma: The Invisible Epidemic: How Trauma Works and How We Can Heal From It: https://amzn.to/3GVLHXw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-paul-m-conti-845074216 Resources Dr. Paul Conti: Therapy, Treating Trauma & Other Life Challenges (Huberman Lab episode): https://hubermanlab.com/dr-paul-conti-therapy-treating-trauma-and-other-life-challenges The Iceberg Model: https://bit.ly/3Pr13sC Pillars of Mental Health: https://bit.ly/3r11yjM Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Paul Conti 00:03:46 Sponsors: BetterHelp & Waking Up 00:06:55 What is a Healthy Self? 00:10:41 Agency & Gratitude; Empowerment & Humility 00:16:13 Physical Health & Mental Health Parallels 00:20:21 Structure of Self; Unconscious vs. Conscious Mind; “Iceberg” 00:26:15 Defense Mechanisms; Character Structure “Nest”, Sense of Self 00:31:27 Predispositions & Character Structure 00:36:01 Sponsor: AG1 00:37:27 Character Structure & Action States; Physical Health Parallels 00:46:20 Anxiety; Understanding Excessive Anxiety 00:53:12 Improving Confidence: State Dependence & Phenomenology; Narcissism 00:59:44 Changing Beliefs & Internal Narratives 01:06:04 Individuality & Addressing Mental Health Challenges 01:11:21 Mental Health Goals & Growth 01:17:32 Function of Self 01:23:00 Defense Mechanisms: Projection, Displacement 01:30:14 Projection, Displacement, Projective Identification 01:34:50 Humor, Sarcasm, Cynicism 01:40:41 Attention & Salience; Negative Internal Dialogue 01:45:02 Repetition Compulsion & Defense Mechanism, Trauma 01:58:55 Mirror Meditation & Self Awareness; Structure & Function of Self, “Cupboards” 02:04:57 Pillars of the Mind, Agency & Gratitude, Happiness 02:13:53 Generative Drive, Aggressive & Pleasure Drives 02:21:33 Peace, Contentment & Delight, Generative Drive; Amplification 02:24:18 Generative Drive, Amplification & Overcoming 02:33:00 Over-Thinking, Procrastination, Choices 02:42:20 Aggressive, Pleasure & Generative Drives, Envy 02:49:46 Envy, Destruction, Mass Shootings 02:55:38 Demoralization, Isolation, Low Aggressive Drive 03:02:50 Demoralization, Affiliate Defense 03:09:32 Strong Aggressive Drive, Competition, Generative Drive Reframing 03:20:02 Cultivating a Generative Drive, Spirited Inquiry of the “Cupboards” 03:26:06 Current Mental Health Care & Medications 03:35:33 Role of Medicine in Exploration 03:40:41 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Social Media, Momentous, Neural Network Newsletter Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com Disclaimer: https://hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

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中英文字稿

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today's episode marks the first in a four-episode series all about mental health. The expert guest for this series is Dr. Paul Conti.

欢迎来到Huberman实验室客座系列节目，我和一位专业嘉宾将讨论日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的节目是一个关于心理健康的四集系列节目的首集。这个系列的专业嘉宾是Paul Conti博士。

Dr. Paul Conti is a medical doctor and psychiatrist who completed his medical training at Stanford University School of Medicine and then went on to become chief resident of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He then went on to found the Pacific Premier Group, which is a collection of psychiatrists and therapists who are expert in treating all types of psychiatric disorders and life stressors.

保罗·康提博士是一位医生和精神科医生，他在斯坦福大学医学院完成了医学培训，并成为哈佛医学院精神科的首席住院医生。随后，他创办了太平洋首席集团，该集团是一群专业治疗所有类型心理障碍和生活压力的精神科医生和心理治疗师的组合。

Across the four episodes of this series on mental health, Dr. Conti teaches us about the structure of our own minds and how to think about our own minds as a way to enhance our mental health. He explains how our subconscious mind and our conscious mind interact to drive our emotions, our decision-making, and our behavior.

在这个关于心理健康的系列节目的四集中，康蒂博士教导我们了解我们自己心灵的构造，并且教会我们如何通过思考自己的心灵来增强心理健康。他解释了我们的潜意识和意识如何相互作用，影响我们的情绪、决策和行为。

And while any series about mental health requires that from time to time, we discuss personality disorders and psychiatric challenges, the main discussion in today's episode, and in fact, all four episodes in this series, are about what it means to be mentally healthy and how to build one's mental health through specific practices, either done alone or with a therapist.

尽管任何关于心理健康的系列都需要不时讨论人格障碍和精神挑战，但今天这集的主要讨论，实际上包括本系列的所有四集，都关于心理健康的含义以及如何通过特定的实践，无论是独自进行还是与治疗师一起，来建立自己的心理健康。

Today's episode addresses several key questions as well as provides protocols for you to address questions about your own mental health. For instance, you will learn what constitutes the most mentally healthy version of yourself. You will learn to assess and indeed, you will learn protocols for addressing levels of anxiety, levels of your confidence, how to think about your beliefs and internal narratives, how to think about your self-talk and restructure your self-talk. We discuss common challenges such as overthinking, we talk about the role of defense mechanisms, and other aspects of the conscious and unconscious mind interactions that can lead us toward or away from the healthiest versions of ourselves.

今天的剧集将涉及几个关键问题，并为您提供处理有关自己心理健康问题的指南。例如，您将了解到什么是您心理健康的最佳状态。您将学会评估并确实学会处理不同程度的焦虑、自信水平，以及如何思考您的信念和内部叙述，如何思考自我对话并重构自我对话的方式。我们讨论常见的挑战，如过度思考，并谈论防御机制的作用，以及意识和无意识心理之间的相互作用对我们通向或远离最健康版本的影响。

You'll notice that during the first five minutes or so of today's discussion, Dr. Conti describes a framework of what he refers to as the structure of self and the function of self, and he describes several pillars for understanding what those are. I'd like to highlight that while that short portion of our discussion does bring up a number of terms that are likely to be novel to you, they certainly were novel to me, that as our conversation proceeds, you will really come to appreciate just how simple and yet powerful that framework is. It will help you understand, for instance, the relationship between your conscious mind and your subconscious mind in ways that you can really apply toward enhancing your mental health.

在今天的讨论开始的前五分钟左右，你会注意到Conti博士描述了一个他所称之为自我的结构和自我的功能的框架，并描述了几个理解这些内容的支柱。我想强调的是，尽管我们的讨论中的这个小片段提到了许多对你来说可能是新颖的术语，它们对我来说肯定是新颖的，但随着我们的对话进行，你会真正认识到这个框架是多么简单而又强大。它将帮助你理解你的意识和潜意识之间的关系，从而能够真正应用于提升你的心理健康。

In addition to that, Dr. Conti has generously provided a few PDFs which illustrate that framework for you and that are available completely zero cost by going to the links in the show note captions. So you have the option to download those PDFs and to look them over, either prior to or during or perhaps after you listen to these four podcast episodes.

除此之外，Conti医生慷慨地提供了一些PDF文件，展示了该框架，你可以点击节目说明中的链接免费获取这些文件。因此，你可以选择下载这些PDF文件，在听这四集播客的过程中或之前或之后阅读它们。

As a final note before beginning today's discussion, just want to emphasize my sentiment, which I'm confident will soon be your sentiment as well, which is that Dr. Paul Conti shares with us immensely powerful tools for enhancing mental health that at least in my knowledge have never been shared publicly before. In fact, as somebody who has done more than three decades of therapy, I've never before been exposed to a conversation about the structure of the mind and the subconscious mind, as well as tools and protocols for enhancing mental health as powerful as these. For me, the information was absolutely transformative in terms of reshaping my thought patterns, my emotional patterns, and indeed several of my behavioral patterns. And I'm confident that the information that you'll glean from today's episode and throughout the series will be positively transformative for you as well.

在今天的讨论开始之前，我想强调我的观点，我相信你很快也会认同，那就是保罗·康蒂博士与我们分享了非常强大的增强心理健康的工具，至少在我所了解的范围内，这些工具以前从未公开分享过。实际上，作为一个从事治疗工作三十多年的人，我以前从未接触过有关思维结构和潜意识的讨论，也没有接触过像这样强大的增强心理健康的工具和方案。对我来说，这些信息在塑造我的思维方式、情绪模式以及一些行为模式方面是完全改变的。我相信你从今天的这一集以及整个系列中获得的信息也会对你产生积极的改变。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客和我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作是独立的。然而，它是我渴望和努力向大众提供关于科学和科学相关工具的零成本信息的一部分。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online. I personally have been doing weekly therapy for more than 30 years. And while that weekly therapy was initiated, not by my own request, it was in fact a requirement for me to remain in high school. Over time, I really came to appreciate just how valuable doing quality therapy is. In fact, I look at doing quality therapy much in the same way that I look at going to the gym or doing cardiovascular training such as running as ways to enhance my physical health.

按照这个主题，我想要感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是BetterHelp。BetterHelp提供在线进行的专业治疗，由持有执照的治疗师提供。我个人已经进行了超过30年的每周治疗。虽然这每周的治疗不是我自己提出的，而是我在高中时必须履行的要求。随着时间的推移，我真的开始欣赏到进行高质量治疗的价值。实际上，我认为进行高质量治疗的重要性就像我认为去健身房或进行有氧运动，例如跑步，对于增强我的身体健康一样重要。

I see therapy as a vital way to enhance one's mental health. The beauty of BetterHelp is that they make it very easy to find an excellent therapist. An excellent therapist can be defined as somebody who is going to be very supportive of you in an objective way with whom you have excellent rapport with and who can help you arrive at key insights that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to find. And because BetterHelp therapy is conducted entirely online, it's extremely convenient and easy to incorporate into the rest of your life.

我认为心理疗法是提升个人心理健康的重要途径。BetterHelp的美妙之处在于他们使得找到一位杰出的心理治疗师变得非常容易。一位杰出的治疗师可以定义为那些会以客观的方式积极支持你，并且你与其之间有良好的互动和默契，能够帮助你找到原本无法发现的关键洞察。而由于BetterHelp的疗法完全在线上进行，因此非常方便和容易融入你的生活中。

So if you're interested in BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp spelled H-E-L-P dot com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up. Waking Up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga need your sessions, and more. By now there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.

所以如果你对BetterHelp感兴趣，可以访问betterhelp.com/huberman，首月可享受10%折扣。BetterHelp的拼写是H-E-L-P，网址为betterhelp.com/huberman。本期节目也由Waking Up赞助。Waking Up是一款冥想应用程序，提供多种引导冥想会话、正念训练、瑜伽需求类会话等等。现在已有大量数据显示，即使是每天进行短暂的冥想也能极大改善我们的情绪，减少焦虑，提升我们的专注能力，并改善我们的记忆力。

And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them. The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you. It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.

虽然有很多不同形式的冥想，但大多数人发现很难找到并坚持一种对他们最有益的冥想方式。《Waking Up》应用程序使学习冥想和进行每日冥想练习变得非常容易，以便对你来说效果最好、最高效。它包括各种不同的冥想类型，持续时间各异，以及诸如瑜伽妮德拉之类的内容，它们能让大脑和身体进入一种类似伪睡眠的状态，让你在恢复清醒时感觉非常精神焕发。

In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work. Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30 day introduction course.

实际上，关于瑜伽睡眠的科学研究真的很令人印象深刻，它显示在一次瑜伽睡眠的会话之后，大脑的某些区域多巴胺水平提高了最多60％，使大脑和身体处于增强的状态，以便进行心理和身体工作。我真的很喜欢"醒觉"应用程序的另一点是它提供了一个为期30天的入门课程。

So for those of you that have not meditated before or getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic. Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga nidra sessions for you as well. If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com slash Huberman and access a free 30 day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com slash Huberman.

所以，对于那些之前没有冥想过或想要重新开始冥想练习的人来说，这太棒了。或者，如果你已经是一个有经验的、经常冥想的人，Waking Up还提供更高级的冥想和瑜伽nidra课程。如果你想试试Waking Up应用程序，你可以访问wakingup.com/Huberman并获得一个免费的30天试用。再次强调，网址是wakingup.com/Huberman。

And now for my discussion about how to understand and assess your level of mental health with Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti, welcome. Thank you. I'm very excited for today's episode and for this series because I like so many other people out there have a lot of questions about myself and themselves. And not just about ourselves, but how the different personality types out there, the healthy types, the narcissists, the, you know, all the things that we hear about these days, gaslighting, all these sorts of things. What all of that really is, perhaps we can dispel some of the myths that exist during the course of this series. I'm sure we will. Sure, you will. Thank you. And also raise certain important questions that we should all ask ourselves in terms of trying to understand who we are and how we can be the best versions of ourselves, how we can experience the most happiness, also the most richness in life, because of course life isn't just all about being happy.

现在让我们与保罗·康蒂博士谈一谈如何理解和评估自己的心理健康水平。保罗·康蒂博士，欢迎你。谢谢。我对今天的讨论和这个系列非常兴奋，因为我和很多其他人一样，对自己和他们有很多问题。不仅仅是关于我们自己，还有关于外面不同的人格类型，例如健康型、自恋型，以及现在我们经常听到的一些事情，比如煽动情绪，种种情况。或许在这个系列的过程中，我们可以揭示一些存在的谬误。我相信我们一定会做到。当然会的。谢谢。此外，我们还将提出一些重要问题，让我们都去思考，以便更好地了解我们自己，成为最好的自己，体验最大的幸福，也体验生活的丰富性，因为当然生活不仅仅只是追求快乐。

So to start off this question, I want to raise a parallel with something I think for most people is more concrete, which is physical health. While there isn't an ideal physical self that's been defined by the medical community, we know, for instance, that there is a range of blood pressures that are considered healthy. There's a range of body mass index that's considered healthy, although that's a little controversial because it depends on how much muscle, how lean people are, et cetera. But you know, I think it's reasonable to say that the healthy individual is not going to get exhausted walking up a flight of stairs. They could bend down and lift an object without hurting themselves. They might even have some additional strength or endurance, et cetera.

首先，我想提出一个类比，让大家更容易理解，就是与身体健康有关的事情。虽然医学界尚未确立一个理想的身体标准，但我们知道，例如，有一系列被认为是健康的血压范围。有一系列被认为是健康的身体质量指数，虽然这有点具有争议性，因为它取决于肌肉量、体脂率等因素。但是，我认为可以合理地说，一个健康的人上楼梯不会感到筋疲力尽。他们可以弯腰捡起物品而不会受伤。他们甚至可能还有一些额外的力量或耐力等。

Within the physical health domain, all of that is fairly well scripted. And there are protocols that people can follow to improve their physical health. We've covered many of them on this podcast before. When it comes to mental health and it comes to concepts of the self, things become much more abstract for people. In fact, I think most people, including myself, are kind of wandering around in the dark, wondering whether or not we are the best versions of ourselves, whether or not we're thinking about ourselves and the world around us in the best ways.

在身体健康领域，所有这些都相对明确规定。人们可以遵循一些方案来改善他们的身体健康。在我们之前的播客中，我们已经涵盖了很多相关内容。但是在谈到心理健康和自我概念时，对于人们来说，事情变得更加抽象。事实上，我认为大多数人，包括我自己，都有点在黑暗中徘徊，不知道我们是否是最好的自己，是否以最佳方式思考我们自己和周围世界的问题。

So to start things off, you tell us what is the healthy version of self? I mean, what should we all be aspiring to? You've worked with people who presumably are healthy and people who have severe pathologies of different psychiatric types, bipolar, narcissistic, sociopathic, and everything in between. So for me and for the listeners, what is a healthy self? What should we be striving for?

首先，你告诉我们什么是健康的自我？我的意思是，我们都应该追求什么？你曾与那些健康的人以及患有不同心理疾病（双相情感障碍、自恋型人格障碍、反社会人格障碍等）的人一起工作。所以对于我和听众来说，什么是健康的自我？我们应该追求什么？

Well, a healthy self approaches life through the lens of agency and gratitude. If you look at happy people, people who like their lives, no matter what stage of life they're at, no matter what their socioeconomic status is, race, religion, there's so many things that we think matters. And they matter to a lot of things. Do they matter to, is someone happy or not? They are not factors. The factors that tell us, is this person enjoying life? Are they going to take care of themselves? Are they happy they're here? Are they engaged productively in the world, is agency and gratitude? And if we have those two things, then it's interesting you almost never see someone go wrong. And even if they're difficulties, even if there are the things happen in life that can make some unhappiness, right? It doesn't take away the person's engagement in life, the person's enthusiasm for life.

嗯，一个健康的自我通过主动性和感恩的视角来对待生活。如果你看看那些快乐的人，喜欢他们的生活的人，无论他们处在生活的哪个阶段，无论他们的社会经济地位、种族、宗教是什么，我们认为很重要的事情有很多。而这些事情确实很重要，但它们并不决定一个人是否快乐。决定一个人是否享受生活、是否会好好照顾自己、是否对生活充满幸福感、是否积极融入社会的因素是主动性和感恩的心态。只要我们拥有这两种心态，几乎不会看到人们走错路。即使遇到困难，即使生活中发生了一些令人不快的事情，也不会削弱一个人对生活的投入和热情。

And I think if you look at even traditions of understanding, how are people happy, whether it's in psychiatry or it's through literature or through religious lens, it is always people who approach life through the lens of agency and gratitude.

我认为，即使是在理解方面的传统观念中，无论是在精神病学、文学还是宗教的视角中，总是那些以行动和感激的心态来面对生活的人才是最幸福的。

Could we go a little bit deeper on agency and gratitude? When I hear the words agency and gratitude, I think agency and ability to affect the world around me in the ways that I want. And I think gratitude being thankful. And we did an entire episode all about gratitude practices. Some of the neuroscience and neuroimaging and neurochemical changes that occur in the brain and body when people exert a gratitude practice. But I have a feeling that when you talk about agency and gratitude, you might be talking about something slightly or maybe even quite a bit different than the way that I'm defining it.

我们能对代理和感恩深入探讨一下吗？当我听到代理和感恩这两个词时，我想到的是代理和能够以我想要的方式影响周围世界的能力。而感恩则是表示感激之情。我们曾制作过一期完全关于感恩实践的节目，其中包括一些关于神经科学、神经影像学和神经化学变化的内容，这些变化在人们实践感恩时发生。但我有种感觉，当你谈到代理和感恩时，你可能在谈论一些稍微或甚至完全不同于我定义的东西。

Yeah. I would say agency and gratitude are these amazing rewards, right, that sit on top of the highly complex brain function inside of us and the highly complex psychology in all of us. So if we think about a self, that I identify a self, I'm an I, right, if I'm going to approach the world with agency and gratitude, that's sitting on top of a lot of healthy things, right? And the idea that, okay, there are ways in which we can be mentally unhealthy, right? But to start with like, what is going on inside of us? And what does it look like when we're healthy?

是的。我认为自主和感激是这些不可思议的奖赏，对应着我们内部高度复杂的脑功能以及我们众人内部复杂的心理。所以，如果我们思考一个自我，我认定我是一个"我"，对世界持有自主和感激的态度，那就是基于许多健康因素之上的。当然，我们可以存在心理不健康的方式，但首要问题是，我们内部到底发生了什么？我们在健康时是什么样子？

So there's a structure of the self, right? There's function of the self. And if we look at the structure and the function and the parts, the components of structure and function, we can come to understand, okay, what is going on in us? What might we change for the better? How do we build empowerment? Right?

所以，存在着自我的结构，对吧？存在着自我的功能。如果我们来看看这个结构和功能以及它们的部分和组成，我们就能够理解，哦，我们内部正在发生什么？我们可以为了更好而做出哪些改变？我们如何建立自主权？对吧？

Empowerment is the ability to navigate the world around us and to bring myself to bear in ways that are effective and from empowerment arises the sense of agency, right? I have agency because I am empowered, right?

赋权是我们在周围世界中自由驰骋并以有效的方式施展自己的能力，从赋权中产生了自主性的意识，对吗？我有自主权是因为我被赋予了赋权，对吗？

And also from a healthy structure of self and function of self, we end up with humility, right? We come through that with the sense of our place in the world and our power in the world to navigate as we choose, but also a sense of the world around us that's far more complicated, right? Then just we are, extends beyond us to other people, to the climate around us, to the health of the whole planet, right? We feel a sense of humility that I'm here and I can do good things. I'm fortunate to be here and I'm part of this bigger ecosystem, right, all the way up to the scale of the ecosystem of earth, right? And if we feel that humility, then we approach the world through the lens of gratitude.

而且从一个健康的自我结构和自我的功能角度来看，我们最终会得到谦卑，对吗？我们通过这种方式感知到自己在世界中的位置和控制力，可以根据自己的选择来航行，但也意识到周围世界的复杂性，对吗？它不仅局限于我们自己，还延伸到其他人、周围的气候，整个地球的健康，对吗？我们感到谦卑，意识到自己在这里可以做好事，很幸运能够在这里，成为这个更大生态系统的一部分，对吗，甚至延伸到地球这个生态系统的规模，对吗？如果我们感到这种谦卑，那么我们会用感激之心来对待世界。

So the idea that a healthy structure of self and a healthy function of self leads to empowerment and humility, and then upon that we are sort of imbued with agency and gratitude and that leads us forth to happy lives.

因此，这个想法是，一个健康的自我结构和自我功能能够带来自我赋权和谦逊的状态，然后我们在此基础上得到主动性和感激之情，这使我们迈向幸福的生活。

Okay, so it's clear to me why having agency and gratitude would be wonderful, perhaps even the goal state that we should all be seeking to achieve. And it also makes sense to me as to why empowerment and humility are important components that feed into our ability to have agency and gratitude, right? Because all of that, at least to my mind, sums to a very clear statement about having agency and gratitude is the best way to approach life. That all makes perfect sense to me and yet I've never really thought about it that way. And I think most people haven't ever been told this, right? I mean, what should we be seeking? We're seeing gratitude.

好的，我很清楚为什么拥有主动性和感恩之心是美好的，甚至可以说是我们所有人应该追求的目标状态。对我来说，理解为什么赋权和谦逊是促进我们拥有主动性和感恩之心的重要组成部分也是有道理的，对吧？因为至少在我看来，所有这些都可以总结为一个非常明确的观点，即拥有主动性和感恩之心是面对生活的最佳方式。这一切对我来说都很合理，但我从未真正以这种方式思考过。我认为大多数人从来没有听说过这一点，对吧？我的意思是，我们应该追求什么呢？我们应该追求感恩之心。

Yes. So we've heard endless number of podcasts, including this podcast about physical health. And we've been told by physicians and everybody else that we should seek to have a relatively low blood pressure, we should seek to have a relatively low heart rate that our cholesterol should be at a certain level, et cetera. So within the physical health domain, there are strong, clear messages about what we should all be striving toward. In a similar way to how we're discussing the self and psychology, I don't think anyone seeks to have low blood pressure or low heart rate because that's what they want per se. They want those things along with some capacity for endurance, the ability to lift an object or some strength, et cetera, because of the way that those metrics of health allow them to move through the world in the best possible way.

是的。所以我们听过无数的播客，包括这个关于身体健康的播客。医生和其他人都告诉我们，我们应该追求相对较低的血压，相对较低的心率，以及胆固醇应该保持在一定水平等等。因此，在身体健康领域内，有一些强烈而明确的信息告诉我们应该努力追求什么。就像我们在讨论自我和心理学时一样，我认为没有人单纯追求低血压或低心率。他们想要这些东西，同时还想要一些耐力、举重能力或一些力量等等，因为这些健康指标能够让他们以最佳方式活动于世界之中。

In other words, having some degree of endurance allows you to walk down the block maybe a lot further or to walk up several flights of stairs or to have some strength allows you to pick up objects and effectively move through life. You're telling us that having a sense of agency and gratitude and that agency and gratitude are undergirded by empowerment and humility. And that's the best way to move through life, the most effective, happiest, if you will, way to move through life.

换句话说，拥有一定程度的耐力意味着你可以走更远的路，上多层楼梯或者举起物品并有效地生活。你告诉我们，拥有自主和感激之情是以授权和谦卑为基础的。而这正是在生活中行动最有效、最快乐的方式，如果你愿意的话。

Well then I think we have to ask ourselves the same thing we would ask about physical fitness, which is what goes into creating a sense of agency and gratitude, empowerment and humility. You know, what are the action steps? Because if I want more endurance, I know to get on an exercise bike or a treadmill or go out for a run a few times a week or more. If I want to get stronger, I'm going to lift objects that are difficult to lift until they're easier to lift. I mean, it's all pretty straightforward in the physical domain, but in the mental health domain, in the psychological domain, it does become a bit more abstract.

那么我认为我们需要问自己与我们问及身体健康一样的问题，即是什么成就了主动性、感激之情、赋权和谦逊的感觉。你知道，行动步骤是什么呢？因为如果我想拥有更好的耐力，我知道应该坐在健身车上或跑步机上，每周进行几次或更多次的跑步。如果我想变得更强壮，我会举起一些难以举起的物体，直到它们变得更容易举起。我是说，在身体健康领域，这一切都相对简单明了，但在心理健康领域，事情就会变得抽象些。

I think in part because no one's ever told us, certainly no one's ever told me what you really need is agency and gratitude in order to have the best possible life. So I very much appreciate that you're telling us this. And I'd love for you to tell us what are the action steps that go into creating these things that we're calling agency, gratitude, empowerment and humility.

我认为部分原因是因为没有人曾告诉过我们，当然也没有人告诉过我，为了拥有最好的生活，你真正需要的是主动性和感激之心。因此，我非常感谢你告诉我们这一点。我希望你能告诉我们，实现所谓的主动性、感激之心、赋权和谦卑需要采取哪些具体行动步骤。

There's actually quite a strong parallel between the physical health dimension and the mental health dimension. So as you're saying, why do you put in the time, the energy, the learning, to be physically healthy? It's a lot of effort and we put so much of ourselves towards it if we decide that we value that. Why do we do it? Because as you said, it's the best way to approach life.

实际上，身体健康和心理健康之间存在着很强的相似之处。就像你所说的，为何要花时间、精力和学习来保持身体健康呢？这需要付出很多努力，如果我们决定重视它，我们会为此付出很多心血。为什么我们要这样做呢？因为正如你所说的那样，这是迎接生活的最佳方式。

There may be something that I want to do. I want to run a race. I want to climb a mountain. But ultimately, we take care of ourselves physically because we don't know what's coming next in life and we want to be prepared for it good, bad and otherwise.

也许有些事情我想做。我想参加一场比赛。我想爬山。但归根结底，我们在身体上保养自己是因为我们不知道生活中接下来会发生什么，我们希望能为不论是好是坏的情况做好准备。

And the same thing is true of mental health. So I can feel grateful for something. I can feel grateful that I'm still breathing right now. I can exercise agency. I can pick up that cup and take a drink. But that doesn't mean that I'm living life through the lens of agency and gratitude, which is consistent with every opinion.

这同样适用于心理健康。因此，我可以感恩某些事物。我可以感激我现在还在呼吸。我可以行使主体性。我可以拿起杯子喝水。但这并不意味着我以主体性和感恩的态度来过生活，这与每个观点一致。

If you look psychologically through the lens of literature, through the lens of sociology and psychology, agency and gratitude make happiness. There are ways of approaching life. And just like physical health is undergirded by cardiovascular health, heart health, muscle strength, there's an undergirding of agency and gratitude and empowerment and humility are ways of describing, okay, what arises from understanding ourselves, taking care of ourselves, that then gives us the agency and gratitude.

如果你从文学、社会学和心理学的角度来看，自主和感恩会带来幸福感。生活有不同的方式。就像身体健康取决于心血管健康、心脏健康和肌肉力量一样，自主、感恩、赋权和谦逊是描述从理解自己、照顾自己中产生的方式。这些方式赋予我们自主能力和感恩之情。

So we have empowerment and we have humility, but where does it all come from? So just like we have to understand the physical body and what to do to it in order to be healthy, we also have to understand the mind, the self that wants to be healthier. And that comes to understanding the structure of the self. And we have enough science through the lens of neurobiology and psychiatry to understand the structure of self and then the function of self, right? How we work, right? How we interface with the world.

所以我们有授权和谦逊，但这些都来源于哪里呢？就像我们必须了解身体并知道如何保持健康一样，我们也必须了解心灵，渴望变得更健康的自我。这就涉及到了对自我结构的理解。通过神经生物学和精神病学的视角，我们有足够的科学知识来理解自我的结构，以及自我的功能，对吧？我们如何运作？我们如何与世界互动？

So it's actually not more complicated than physical health. It's just that we don't spell it out that way, right? We come at it through the lens of pathology of what's wrong and who has some diagnosis and you know, we're looking for the problematic instead of saying like, what do we look like when we're happy, right? And then going and digging down into the mechanics of it all, right?

实际上，心理健康并不比身体健康更复杂。只是我们没有以同样的方式来阐述，对吧？我们通常从病理学的角度来看待问题，关注的是问题出在哪里以及谁有什么诊断，我们总是在寻找问题所在，而不是思考我们在快乐时是什么样子，对吧？然后深入探讨其中的机制，对吧？

And if we're not in that state, right, to go and look at that and to make changes just as if you were very, very physically healthy, right? But you know, your heart rate couldn't go up that much without you feeling very, very fatigued. We'd say, well, look, you're doing a lot of the right things, right? But let's work more on your heart, right? We would go look at the specifics of it because that's how we understand it.

如果我们不处在那种状态下，对那个状态进行观察并进行改变，就像你非常非常健康一样，对吗？但是你知道，如果你的心率不会上升得太多而不感到非常疲劳。我们会说，嗯，看，你做了很多正确的事情，对吗？但让我们更多地关注你的心脏，对吗？我们会具体分析它，因为这样我们才能理解。

And we just don't apply the same science, logic, common sense to mental health as we do to physical health. But it's time for that to change because we have the knowledge and ability to do just that.

我们在对待心理健康和对待身体健康时，并没有采用相同的科学、逻辑和常识。但是现在是时候改变这种状况了，因为我们已经拥有了这样做的知识和能力。

When we had Dr. Andy Galpin on this podcast to do a series on physical health and fitness, essentially, he said something that really stuck with me, which was that the number of different workouts that people can do out there, body weight workouts, work with weights, with machines, you can run far, you can run shorter distances more quickly, you know, you can do planks, you know, sit up, so many variations on exercise routines.

在我们邀请安迪·加尔平博士参加这个播客节目，进行关于身体健康和健身的系列访谈时，他说了一句让我印象深刻的话，大意是人们可以进行的各种不同的锻炼方式有很多，可以进行自重锻炼、使用哑铃或器械进行锻炼，可以长跑，也可以更快地短跑，还有平板支撑、仰卧起坐等等，有很多不同变化的锻炼方式。

But what he very clearly stated was that there are only a few core adaptations that the body can undergo that lead to these byproducts that we call lower blood pressure, enhanced endurance, improved strength, improved neuromuscular function, improved brain function for that matter.

但他非常明确地表述了这样一个观点：身体只能经历少数核心适应性变化，这些变化导致了我们所称之为降低血压、增强耐力、提高力量、改善神经肌肉功能以及改善大脑功能等产物。

It sounds to me like there are a lot of parallels in creating the healthy psychological self. So what are the core components that I and others should think about in terms of understanding he described them as the structure of the self and the functions of the self?

在我的理解中，创造健康的心理自我似乎有很多相似之处。那么，我们应该思考哪些核心要素来理解他所描述的自我结构和自我功能呢？

Again, just to draw a parallel, if we were talking about physical health, we'd say, okay, there's connections between nerves and muscle that allows us to move our limbs. If you apply a certain amount of resistance, you get a certain adaptation, which is the neuromuscular connection, get stronger, the muscle might get bigger or just stronger, etc. Flexibility, you know, you just push your range of motion just a little bit into discomfort.

再次引用一个类比，如果我们在谈论身体健康，我们会说，好的，神经和肌肉之间有联系，这使我们可以移动我们的四肢。如果你施加一定的阻力，你会得到一定的适应，即神经肌肉连接会变得更强，肌肉可能会变得更大或更强壮，等等。灵活性，你知道，只需稍微推动你的运动范围到一点点不适即可。

You do that. It so happens to be the case that you do that for just a couple of minutes each day over the course of about a week or so, you get a significant increase in flexibility. Okay, so it's all very clear in the physical domain.

你这么做。恰好的是，你每天只需坚持几分钟，大约一周左右，你的灵活性就会显著提高。好的，所以在身体层面上一切都非常明了。

In the psychological domain, I hear you telling us that the action steps that we all should be taking in order to be the happiest version of ourselves by achieving agency and gratitude is to explore the structure of self and the function of self.

在心理领域，我听到你告诉我们为了成为最快乐的自己，实现自主和感恩，我们应该采取的行动步骤是探索自我结构和自我功能。

So if you could tell us about what is the structure of self, like what goes into Andrew being Andrew and Paul being Paul and whoever the listener is and to being who they are. What is that? And what is the function of self? How does a psychiatrist think about that? How should we think about that? If I could start maybe to set the stage for that, by pointing out that as we go up the hierarchy of health, everything should get simpler, not more complicated.

所以，如果你能告诉我们自我结构是什么样的，比如说Andrew是如何成为Andrew, Paul是如何成为Paul，以及任何听众所代表的人们是如何成为他们自己的，那是什么呢？自我的作用又是什么？一个精神科医生如何思考这个问题？我们应该如何思考这个问题呢？也许我可以从这一点开始，为大家展示：随着我们逐渐提升健康的层级，一切都应该变得更简单，而不是更复杂。

If you think about physical health, there's so much complexity on the initial levels. So we think about your physical health status versus mine. It's going to be different. We're going to have different cardiac function and muscle function and pulmonary function. And if we're going to be healthy, we could do a lot of different things. There might be a whole set of choices that would work well for you, different choices that would work for me and we can gauge intensity, timing, frequency. It's very complicated when we're on the lower levels of the hierarchy.

如果你考虑到身体健康问题，初始阶段就有很多复杂性。所以我们要考虑你的身体健康状况与我的不同。我们的心脏功能、肌肉功能和肺功能都会有所不同。如果我们想要保持健康，我们可以选择许多不同的做法。对你来说，可能有一整套适合的选择，而对我来说可能又是不同的选择，我们还可以衡量强度、时间和频率。当我们处于较低层次的时候，这一切变得非常复杂。

As we get higher up, let's say you and I both do the right things, then what happens? We both have endurance. We both have some strength. We're both robust. Those are getting simpler because we're approaching the unique idiosyncrasies in all of us. And we have to look at that and look at that in a very specific way. But what we're trying to get to is something that's common for all of us. So stamina, for example, in physical health and endurance and agency and gratitude in mental health.

当我们越往上走，假设你和我都做了正确的事情，那会发生什么呢？我们都有耐力。我们都有一些力量。我们都很健壮。这些都变得更加简单，因为我们正在接近我们每个人的独特特质。我们必须以一种非常具体的方式来看待这个，并尝试找到对我们所有人来说共同的东西。因此，例如，在身体健康方面是耐力，在心理健康方面是耐心和感激之情。

So then if we go and we look and we look at the structure of the self and the function of self, we find that there's more complexity, but that it is also understandable. I mean, there's tremendous complexity in the body, just as there's tremendous complexity in the mind and we can understand what is the structure of self, what is the function of self, and we can look at that and assess that in the same way we would physical health parameters so that we arrive at the place we want to be, be it endurance or agency or gratitude.

所以，如果我们去观察自我结构和自我功能，我们会发现其中更多的复杂性，但同时也是可以理解的。我的意思是，身体中存在巨大的复杂性，而心灵中同样也有巨大的复杂性，我们可以理解自我的结构和功能，我们可以以同样的方式来评估它，就像我们评估身体健康参数一样，这样我们就能达到我们想要的状态，无论是耐力、能动性还是感激之情。

So structure of self. We all have an unconscious mind, right? And we pay so little attention to this part of us that really is the biological supercomputer, right? So millions of things are going on all the time, like in every split second. So for example, I can say these words, right? You can listen to the words. You can say things back and I can listen, right? There are millions and millions of things going on under the surface, much of which comes from either biological predispositions, right? Or habits over time, right? Thought processes, patterns, right? So this unconscious mind, this supercomputer is doing all of these things, like, you know, at the speed of light, right? There are electrical and chemical signals and, you know, multiple pathways as common as complicated as superhighway systems that then get consolidated and communicate with others, right? And then what comes up from all of that is the conscious mind.

自我结构。我们都有潜意识，对吧？但我们很少关注我们这个生物超级计算机的一部分，对吧？所以有无数的事情在每一刻都在发生。比如说，我可以说这些话，对吧？你可以听这些话。你可以回应，我可以听，对吧？在表面之下，有无数的事情在发生，其中很多来自生物倾向，或者习惯积累，还有思维过程、模式，对吧？这个潜意识，这个超级计算机在进行着所有这些事情，以光速，对吧？有电信号和化学信号，以及像高速公路系统一样复杂的多个路径，然后它们被整合并与其他人进行交流，对吧？然后从所有这些中浮现出来的是意识。

Imagine in iceberg, right? And it's a really, really big iceberg, right? And we see the part above the surface, right? That's the conscious mind, right? But there's a huge part of this iceberg, maybe 95% of it that's underneath the water, right? There's this hulking mass that we don't see. That's the unconscious mind, right? And it's feeding up to the conscious mind, which is a much smaller part of our brain function, right? But it's the part that we're aware of, right? It's sitting on top of all the unconscious things, which are extremely important, but then we become aware so that we can engage in the real world. In order for us to have this conversation, the millions of things per second have to be going on underneath the surface so that you and I, as conscious eyes, right, as conscious selves, can ride along on top of it. So that's the part of the iceberg that's above the water. It's the conscious self.

想象一座冰山，对吧？而且它是一座非常非常大的冰山，对吧？我们只看到了水面上的一部分，对吧？那就是我们的意识思维，对吧？但是这座冰山的巨大部分，也许有95%是隐藏在水下的，对吧？这里有一个庞大的实体我们看不见，那就是我们的潜意识思维，对吧？它向上供给我们的是意识思维，而这只是我们大脑功能中一小部分，对吧？但这是我们意识到的部分，对吧？它盖在所有的潜意识思维之上，这些思维非常重要，但是它们需要我们意识到才能在现实世界中发挥作用。为了我们进行这次对话，每秒钟都有数百万个思维过程在水面下进行，以便你我作为有意识的存在可以在其上往前前进。所以这就是在水面上的冰山部分，也就是我们的有意识自我。

And imagine that the conscious self is girded by a set of long tendrils that come out from under the water, right? Their defense mechanisms that are unconscious to us that sort of gird the conscious mind. So do we rationalize automatically? Do we avoid automatically? Do we act out automatically? Are these things in us in ways that we can observe and change, but that are there to try and protect the conscious mind from the slings and arrows of the world around us, right?

想象一下，意识的自我被一些长长的触须包围着，从水下伸出来，明白吗？这些我们无法察觉到的防御机制差不多像是保护我们意识的思维过程。那么我们是不是会自动进行理性思考？是不是会自动回避？是不是会自动行动起来？这些机制是否存在于我们内心，在某种程度上我们可以观察并改变，但它们在那里的目的是试图保护我们的意识不受周围世界的冲击和伤害，对吗？

So if you imagine, there's the big part of the iceberg under the water, the unconscious mind. The conscious mind is riding on top of it, but the conscious mind that part sticking out of the water is vulnerable, right? So imagine that there's a defensive structure that arises from the part of the iceberg that's underwater that is there to defend and protect the conscious mind.

所以，如果你想象一下，冰山的大部分都在水下，那就是潜意识。而意识则是位于其顶部，但是意识那部分露出水面的部分是脆弱的，对吗？所以想象一下，有一种防御结构从水下的那部分冰山中形成，它存在的目的是为了保护和捍卫意识。

So when you say to defend and protect, when you say that the conscious mind is vulnerable, what do you mean? Do you mean that it's vulnerable to physical attack or that it's vulnerable to us realizing that we're just a bunch of neurons that are clicking away underneath? Like, in other words, where does the vulnerability of the conscious mind really reside? Not physically, where does it reside? But what am I so worried about in terms of my safety? I mean, right now we're in a room, I feel pretty safe. I don't think you're going to attack me verbally or physically. I suppose it's possible that could happen, but it seems like a very distant possibility.

当你说要保护和防御时，当你说意识意识是脆弱的，你指的是什么？你是指它容易受到身体攻击，还是指它容易让我们意识到自己只是一堆在脑内不断激活的神经元？换句话说，意识意识的脆弱真正存在于哪里？不是身体上的，是存在于哪里？那么我对我的安全感到如此担忧的是什么呢？我的意思是，现在我们在一个房间里，我感到相当安全。我不认为你会用言语或身体来攻击我。我想这可能发生，但似乎是一个非常遥远的可能性。

So when you say that these defenses are there to protect us from some sort of awareness, what awareness are we trying to avoid?

当你说这些防御措施是为了保护我们免受某种意识的影响时，我们试图避免哪种意识？

So the vulnerability of the conscious mind is to fear, confusion, despair, right? There's so many things that we can fear, right? Some people are afraid of snakes or spiders, some people are afraid of death, some people are afraid of health issues that could come to them or to people they love. We can get confused and not know what decisions to make and how to navigate the world and how to be who we want to be to ourselves and to others, right? We can feel tremendously vulnerable and despairing if we lose others or we start to see things happening in the world around us that we don't like, right? We start to feel like what will happen to the planet we live on? Will there be war where I live? Will my children be safe, right? There's so much that we need to protect ourselves again.

所以意识的脆弱性就在于恐惧、困惑和绝望，对吗？我们可以害怕很多事情对吗？有些人害怕蛇或蜘蛛，有些人害怕死亡，有些人害怕自己或所爱之人的健康问题。我们可能会感到困惑，不知道该做出什么决定，如何航行这个世界，如何在自己和他人面前成为我们想成为的人，对吗？如果我们失去亲人，或者看到世界周围发生的事情让我们不喜欢，我们会感到极度脆弱和绝望，对吗？我们开始担心我们所居住的星球会发生什么？我所在的地方会有战争吗？我的孩子会安全吗？有很多事情我们需要保护自己免受伤害。

So that vulnerable part of us, right? The part of the iceberg sticking out above the water needs a defensive structure around it to protect it against the vulnerability of fear, confusion, despair, right? And because the conscious mind is sticking out of the water with a defensive structure around it, right? It is the raw material from which we create our character structure.

我们内心中的脆弱部分是对的，对吧？冰山上伸出水面的部分需要一种防御结构来保护它免受恐惧、困惑和绝望的伤害，对吧？因为意识层悬挂在水面上，并且有个防御结构维护着，对吧？它是我们塑造性格结构的原材料。

So the character structure is all of that, the part under the water, the part above the water, the defensive structure. So imagine a nest around all of that and that's the character structure that we utilize to interface with the world, right?

因此，字符结构包括所有的部分，水下的部分、水上的部分以及防御结构。所以想象一下，把所有这些都围绕在一个巢穴内，这就是我们用来与世界互动的字符结构，对吗？

So the character structure is the thing that I'm using, right? It's like if you're driving somewhere in a car, right? The car is the thing that you're using to go there, right? The character structure is the thing that we're using to interface with the world.

所以字符结构就是我正在使用的东西，对吧？就像当你开车去某个地方，对吧？车就是你用来前往那里的工具，对吧？字符结构就是我们用来与世界进行交互的工具。

So for example, how trusting am I versus suspicious, right? How readily do I come to make friends with people, right? How much do I act out if I'm frustrated, right? How much do I, you know, exclaim something negative, right? As opposed to holding it inside of me. How much do I rationalize if something isn't going well? Do I want to look at it and maybe see that it is so that I don't have to face it, right? How much do I avoid problems in the world around me? How much do I exercise altruism, right? These are all the ways in which we're engaging with the world around us and this determines the self.

所以，例如，我有多信任而不怀疑，对吧？我有多快地和人交朋友，对吧？如果我感到沮丧，我会有多么冲动行事，对吧？我会有多么频繁地表达负面情绪，对吧？相对于将其压在心底，我会有多么表态，对吧？如果某事不顺利，我会有多么合理化，为了不必面对而选择去研究它，对吧？我会有多么回避我周围的问题？我会有多么行动无私，对吧？这些都是我们与周围世界互动的方式，它们决定着自我。

Imagine that the self then grows out of this nest from the character structure that we use to interface with the world and the decisions that we make. So if our character structure is the thing through which we engage with the world, then we're enacting what is inside of us, right? What we've determined through our unconscious mind, our conscious mind, our defense mechanism, there's a certain us that that comes at the world in a certain way. Even if we're more or less trusting, more or less avoidant, we rationalize more or less, these are the factors that determine like where do our lives go, right?

想像一下，自我是从我们用来与世界接触和做出决策的性格结构中成长出来的。所以，如果我们的性格结构是我们与世界互动的工具，那么我们所表现出的就是我们内在的东西，对吧？通过我们的潜意识、意识和防御机制，我们决定了一定程度上如何面对世界。无论我们更或者较少地信任、回避，或者更或者较少地理性化，这些因素决定了我们的生活走向，对吧？

Because on top of all of this, imagine that the nest of the character structure around all of this grows from it the self, right? The product of the feelings inside, the things that we know about ourselves and don't know about ourselves, the decisions that all of it leads to.

想象一下，在所有这一切之上，人物结构的巢穴是以自我为中心的。它由内心的感受、我们自知和不自知的事情以及所有这一切所导致的决策构成。

So I may choose to be, for example, more trusting and that may bring an opportunity to me that I wouldn't have otherwise had, right? I may choose to be more trusting and it may bring risk to me that I wouldn't otherwise have had. So we want to be as healthy as we can, as knowledgeable of ourselves in the world around us so that it's safe for us to have a healthy character structure through which we can engage in the world around us with a sense of prudence, right?

所以，举个例子，我可以选择更加信任他人，这可能会给我带来一个我本来没有的机会，对吧？我可以选择更加信任，但这可能会给我带来一些其他情况下没有的风险。所以我们希望尽可能保持健康，对自己和周围的世界有更多的了解，这样我们就能够以审慎的态度与周围的世界互动，并在此基础上发展出一种健康的性格结构，对吗？

Even reasonable risks, right? Not too little so that we shut ourselves down and maybe end up despairing. Not so much that scary things can happen to us and we end up fearful, right? But the idea that if we know ourselves well, the character structure is healthy, right? Because it's built upon a structure of self and a function of self that are healthy and out of it is coming empowerment, right? And empowerment and humility, right? That then lead us to agency and gratitude, right?

甚至是合理的风险，对吧？不要太少以至于抑制自己，最终可能导致绝望。也不要太多以至于吓人，让我们变得害怕，对吧？但是，如果我们对自己了解得好，人格结构是健康的，对吧？因为它建立在健康的自我结构和功能之上，从中产生了赋权感，对吧？并且赋权感和谦卑，对吧？然后，它们引领我们拥有主动性和感恩之心，对吧？

The idea here is that this is the character structure that we create that can then interface with the world in a way that's good for us and good for the world around us that leads us to be able to live in much more harmony inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves.

这里的理念是，我们创造的这种人格结构可以与世界以一种对我们自身和周围世界都有益的方式进行互动，使我们能够在自身和外部相互和谐地生活。

So if I understand correctly, defense mechanisms that grow up out of this portion of the iceberg that we're calling the unconscious mind, they protect our conscious self in ways that can be adaptive or that can be maladaptive. In other words, defenses can be healthier, they can be unhealthy.

所以，如果我理解正确，我们所称之为无意识心智的这部分形成的防御机制，它们以适应性或不适应性的方式保护我们的意识自我。换句话说，防御机制既可以更有利于健康，也可以不利于健康。

Yes. And perhaps in a few minutes, we can get into what a healthy versus an unhealthy defense looks like. But the way you describe character structure sounds to me like an array of contextual dispositions.

是的。也许在几分钟后，我们可以讨论一下健康防御与不健康防御的区别。但是你描述的人格结构听起来更像是一系列情境倾向。

I don't want to add unnecessarily complex language, but it sounds to me like a bunch of dispositions. Like, if I'm walking into the office where I know everybody and I see familiar faces, there's no reason for me to be on guard if I trust those people. But if I'm walking down a street at night that I'm not familiar with and I'm starting to get the sense that this neighborhood might not be the best, it makes sense for me to be on relatively high alert. So different dispositions depending on different conditions.

我不想增加不必要的复杂语言，但就我而言，这听起来像一系列的情绪态度。比如，如果我走进我熟悉的办公室，看到熟悉的面孔，我没有理由对那些我信任的人提高警惕。但如果我在一个我不熟悉的夜晚走在一条街上，开始感觉到这个社区可能不太好，那么对我来说相对高度的警惕是合理的。所以不同的情况下会有不同的情绪态度。

I can't help but mention my bulldog Costello who had basically three dispositions. It was a sleep, but in all seriousness, the second one was got a board, the bulldog faces kind of board, or if something was given to him that he liked or if we were doing something he liked delight, he basically had three dispositions as far as I could tell. I think one of the reasons we like dogs so much or that many of us like dogs so much is that their decisions are very predictable. Take him to the park, he's happy unless he happened to be ill that day, which was rare.

我忍不住提起我的法国斗牛犬Costello，他总的来说有三种心情。第一种是睡觉，但是说真的，第二种是有点闷闷不乐的表情，就像脸上有块木板似的；或者是当他得到他喜欢的东西，或者当他喜欢我们正在做的事情时，他会欢喜起来。据我所知，他基本上有三种情绪。我认为我们之所以这么喜欢狗，或者说很多人为什么喜欢狗，其中一个原因就是它们的行为很可预测。带他去公园，他会很开心，除非他那天碰巧生病了，这种情况很少见。

You know, feed him, he's happy. There wasn't a lot of, I don't like this particular meal or I don't like this particular park or this bijon frieze doesn't smell so good to me. You know, it was so simple and yet people are very complex, right? I can look at myself and say, okay, what is my character structure? Character structure is certain things I like, certain things I dislike, certain things really irritate me, certain environments and people I just delight in.

你知道的，给他吃饱，他就高兴。没有很多的，我不喜欢这特定的餐点或我不喜欢这个公园，或者对我来说，这个比熊犬不是很好闻。你知道的，它很简单，但人们却很复杂，对吧？我可以看着自己，说，好的，我的性格构造是什么？性格构造指的是我喜欢的事物、不喜欢的事物、可以让我烦躁的事物、以及我喜欢的环境和人。

Okay, so is the definition of a healthy character structure one in which the dispositions match the context perfectly? I mean, I don't know how any of us could be like that, but is that sort of the ideal much in the same way that, you know, we could probably arrive at an ideal degree of stamina that one could have. I mean, some people want run ultramarathons, you know, 100 miles or more, some people want to run a marathon, some people don't really desire to run a marathon, but I want to be able to run a mile if I need to without being completely exhausted and injured.

好的，所以健康的性格结构是指倾向与环境完美匹配吗？我的意思是，我不知道我们中的任何人能够做到这一点，但这是一种理想状态，就像我们可以达到理想的耐力一样。我的意思是，有些人想要跑超级马拉松，你知道，100英里或更多，有些人想要跑一届马拉松，有些人并不真正想要参加一届马拉松，但是我希望在需要的时候能够跑一英里而不会完全筋疲力尽和受伤。

So you know, when we ask ourselves about character structure, are we asking ourselves about context driven dispositions and how do we start to evaluate that for ourselves?

所以，你知道的，当我们自问角色结构时，我们是否在问自己关于上下文驱动的品质和如何开始为自己评估它？

I think because we're more complicated, I think it's not dispositions as much as it's predispositions, right? So in the example that you gave, you have a certain predisposition to be either trusting or wary, right? And that's healthy in you, right? So when you come into a setting where there's not a good reason to feel mistrustful, to feel anxious, to feel vulnerable, right, then you feel at ease, right?

我认为由于我们更加复杂，所以我认为不是性格倾向，而更多的是先天倾向对吧？所以在你给出的例子中，你有一种对于信任或警惕的固有倾向，对吗？而这在你身上是健康的，对吧？所以当你进入一个没有充分理由感到不信任、不安或脆弱的环境时，你会感到轻松，对吗？

So you walk into the work setting, there are people you know, there are people you like, everything is okay, right? You have a different predisposition when the context is different, right? So if the context could bring a lack of safety, then you respond accordingly with a lack of safety, right?

所以你步入工作场景，那里有你认识的人，也有你喜欢的人，一切都还好，对吗？当环境不同的时候，你会有不同的倾向，对吗？所以，如果环境缺乏安全感，你会相应地作出缺乏安全感的反应，对吗？

But it's possible certainly those predispositions can be in unhealthy places, right? So for example, you might have been traumatized in a certain way or you might approach the world in a certain way because of prior experience that you may not register as trauma, but it may be that within you is a predisposition to be mistrustful.

但是很有可能，这些倾向性确实存在不健康的情境对吧？举个例子，你可能因为某种特定的创伤或先前的经历对世界持有某种特定的看法，这些经历可能并未被你认定为创伤，但在你内心中可能存在不信任的倾向。

So you could walk into a room of people that you know of people who've never met you any harm and still feel unsafe, right? Now this happens most often after trauma, but there are other ways people can get to that where the predisposition isn't so healthy.

所以，你可能走进一个房间，里面的人你都认识或者从未见过，而且知道没有人会对你造成伤害，但你仍然感到不安全，对吗？这种情况最常发生在经历创伤之后，但也有其他方式可以使人陷入这种不健康的倾向。

The converse is true too, right? There are people who can have too much of what's called an omnipotence defense and then they don't recognize danger when danger is around them. So the idea, the character structure, that nest, right, that's built around the defensive structure and the conscious mind that's sitting on top of the part of the iceberg, the unconscious mind underwater, right? It's that nest that is interfacing with the world through a whole set of predispositions.

这个观点也是正确的，对吗？有些人可能过于依赖所谓的全能防御机制，导致他们在危险来临时无法识别出危险。所以，那个与防御机制相联系的、坐落在冰山上层水面下的无意识心智之上的意识心智所构建的巢穴，对吗？正是这个巢穴通过一整套倾向性来与世界交互。

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我想休息一下并向我们的赞助商AG1表示感谢。AG1是一种维生素矿物质益生元饮料，满足您的基础营养需求。2012年，我开始饮用AG1，所以我很高兴他们资助了这个播客。我开始喝AG1的原因，以及为什么我每天通常会喝一次或两次AG1的原因是，这是我确保获得所需的所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维最简单的方式。

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当然，从整个食物中获取适当的营养是至关重要的，但大多数人，包括我自己，发现每天摄取足够的水果和蔬菜份量很困难，尤其是获取足够的益生元和益生菌以确保肠道健康。正如你可能知道的那样，你的肠道含有数万亿个微生物群，即所谓的肠道菌群，它与你身体的其他器官建立重要联系，以促进大脑健康，并支持你的免疫系统以及与心理和身体健康相关的其他方面。

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I think most of us are familiar with assessing and assigning names to the character structures of others. And at least for most of us, we do that with no professional training or authority. That person is great. They're super nice. The person's a jerk. They're like weird, etc. I think very few of us are familiar with assessing our own character structure. Right. And I have to presume that some of what happens when somebody comes to you as a psychiatrist or to a psychologist is that certain questions are asked and certain narratives are told that start to reveal to the clinician the character structure. And perhaps from there, some of the possible defense mechanisms and structure of the person's unconscious mind and conscious mind that obviously are unaware to them but would be cleared of the clinician. Much in the same way that if somebody goes into the doctor and says, you know, I don't feel well, they're going to start probing with questions or they're going to take a listen to their breathing, listen to their heart, right? You can help the stethoscope and figure it out. These are the pros, whereas the psychiatrist or psychologist uses words in language to probe. Yes.

我认为我们大多数人都很熟悉评估和给其他人的性格结构起名字。而且至少对于我们大多数人来说，我们都没有接受过专业培训或担任任何权威角色。那个人很棒。他们非常友好。那个人很糟糕。他们有点奇怪，等等。我认为很少有人熟悉评估我们自己的性格结构。没错。我要假设当有人来找你作为心理医生或心理学家时，会问一些问题并讲述一些故事，从而开始向临床医生揭示这个人的性格结构。也许从此，一些可能的防御机制以及潜意识和意识的结构会被临床医生理清楚，而这些对于患者来说显然是未意识到的。就像一个人去看医生，并说：“你知道吗，我觉得不舒服”，医生会开始询问问题或听他们的呼吸、心脏，对吗？你可以借助听诊器来找出问题所在。这就是专业人员的方式，而心理医生或心理学家则使用语言和话语来探查。是的。

So what are the sorts of aspects of character structure that we can be aware of in ourselves? You know, in other words, should we be asking what type of character do I have, depending on one circumstance or another? Should we ask ourselves what sorts of defenses we have? Maybe this would be a good opportunity to address this issue of what are healthy versus unhealthy defenses. Because it sounds to me, if I understand correctly, that the defense mechanisms are a very strong component in determining what our character structure is. Because the defense mechanisms are unconscious, right? The character structure that nests around the defenses in the conscious mind through which we interface with the world is very, very complicated. So there are many character structures as there are human beings, right? So it's very, very complicated, but there are factors that are consistently relevant across people and get identified as such.

那么，在我们自己身上，我们可以意识到哪些性格结构方面？也就是说，我们是否应该根据不同情况来问自己是什么类型的人？我们是否应该询问自己有哪些防御机制？也许这是一个很好的机会来探讨健康与不健康防御机制的问题。因为根据我理解，防御机制在决定我们的性格结构中是一个非常强大的组成部分。因为防御机制是无意识的，对吧？在意识中围绕防御机制的性格结构与我们与世界接触的方式非常复杂。所以，就像人类一样，性格结构是十分复杂的，但是也存在一些始终相关且被识别出来的因素。

So one example would be isolation versus affiliation, right? So does a person tend to group with others, right? Or does the person tend to avoid grouping, right, and go about thoughts, tasks, approaches to life in a more singular manner? So it's just one element. I'm making value judgment about it because it can be good or bad on either end of the spectrum, right? So we're just saying, what are the factors? So am I more affiliative or do I tend to isolate and be more singular? That's just one example, right? Another example could be things like, for example, use of humor, right? Does a person use humor and in what way, right? Does a person use humor to deflect discomfort in negative situations? Does a person use humor in order to be little others or to be little themselves? Or does a person not use humor, right? So there are these aspects of character structure and so much research has been done on this over the years to determine what is most salient, right, in this thing that we use in order to interface with the world around us, out of which grows our self.

所以一个例子就是孤立与社交，对吧？一个人倾向于与他人结成群体，对吧？还是倾向于避免群体化，而以更个体化的方式思考、处理任务和生活方式？这只是其中的一个因素。我对它进行价值判断是因为在这个谱的两端都可能有好的一面或坏的一面，对吧？所以我们只是在说，有哪些因素呢？我是更社交型的，还是倾向于孤立和更加个体化？这只是一个例子，对吧？另一个例子可能是，比如幽默的使用，对吧？一个人如何使用幽默，对吧？一个人使用幽默是为了转移负面情况中的不适吗？一个人使用幽默是为了贬低他人或贬低自己吗？还是一个人不使用幽默，对吧？所以这些都是性格结构的方面，多年来已经进行了大量的研究，以确定在我们用来与周围世界接触的这种东西中最为显著的是什么，而这也是我们自我的来源。

That makes good sense and it makes me want to revise a little bit what I asked about before, which is I said that when it comes to an exam of physical health, we measure blood pressure, measure breathing, etc. Maybe even a blood test, look at some biomarkers, but what you're describing is a little bit more analogous to the physician addressing a patient who's having some physical discomfort or malaise and saying, tell me about your day. What do you do when you get up in the morning if the person says, well, I drink a quarter pint of vodka. It's a very different answer than I'd go outside and get sunlight in my eyes, drink a glass of water and maybe have a cup of coffee, right? Or if somebody says, I have six espresso, if I understand correctly, the character structure is better revealed by exploring the action states that somebody engages in isolation versus engagement, as opposed to a read of one specific biomarker.

这很有道理，这让我想稍微修改一下我之前问的问题，我说的是在谈及身体健康考试时，我们会测量血压、呼吸等等。甚至可能要进行血液测试，观察一些生物标志物。但你所描述的情况有点类似医生询问一位感到身体不适或痛苦的患者，并问他们一天中的活动情况。如果这个人说，嗯，我喝了四分之一品脱伏特加，这个回答与我早上起床后出去晒太阳、喝一杯水，可能再喝杯咖啡的回答是非常不同的，对吧？或者如果有人说，我喝了六杯浓咖啡，如果我理解正确的话，表现出来的个体结构更多是通过独立与参与的行动状态来揭示，而不是通过对某一特定生物标志物的分析。

Yes. So the structure brought to life. Right. Yes. Immediately I'm thinking about movies and books where we learn so much about somebody through observing the way that they interact with people in very potent ways. So for instance, I can think of countless movies where you learn a ton about somebody in the first scene simply because of the way they react to somebody who cuts them off in traffic. They just explode. Okay. Well, then we think of that person as reactive from that point on unless there's a significant amount of material to revise that, but it's in the action of getting explosive and cursing, etc. As opposed to if they just kind of laugh it off or laugh at themselves or blame someone within their own vehicle or something like that.

是的，所以结构就活起来了。是的。嗯。我立刻想到了电影和书籍，在那些作品中，我们通过观察一个人与他人的互动方式来了解他们的很多信息，这种方式非常有力。比如，我可以想到无数部电影，在第一场景中，你就能从他们对被人挡路的反应中了解到很多关于他们的信息。他们会勃然大怒。好吧，从那时起，我们会认为这个人是很容易激动的，除非有大量的材料来修正这一观点，但这种行为是通过爆发和咒骂等方式来表现的。相比之下，如果他们只是笑笑就过去了，或者责怪自己车里的某个人之类的话。

So are those the sorts of things that a clinician like yourself is listening for when somebody says, you know, I don't feel well. And you say, well, tell me about what's going on lately. And they start describing what's going on in their life. And are you listening for those places where the defense mechanisms can start to reveal themselves? The character structure starts to reveal itself through these action steps that the person seems to be taking.

那么，对于像您这样的临床医生来说，当有人说自己不舒服时，您会听到这些东西，比如他们最近发生了什么事情。他们开始描述他们生活中正在发生的事情。您是在寻找那些防御机制开始显现的地方吗？人们似乎通过所采取的行动步骤来展示出他们的人格结构。

Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe one way of looking at character structure is that it's potentialities and predispositions, right? That there's so much that's latent that then interfaces with events like a person stuck in traffic. How does that person respond? If that person weren't stuck in traffic, there wouldn't be a response to it. So there are potentialities, there are predispositions, and then we live through enacting them as we're moving then through life, right?

是吗？是的。是的。也许观察个性结构的一种方式是它的潜能和倾向性，对吧？也就是说，潜在的东西与像一个被困在交通堵塞中的人这样的事件相互作用。那个人会如何应对？如果那个人没有被困在交通堵塞中，就不会有对此的反应。所以存在着潜能，存在着倾向性，然后我们通过实践来活出它们，就像我们在生活中前进一样，对吧？

And the attempts to understand, so using the physical health parallel, right? If you came in and you said, I don't feel well, right? We might run a lot of tests, right? We might get an MRI or a CAT scan or even put in the set the scope and listening to us inside of you. Those, we could say, are unconscious things. You're not aware of what the imaging may show or the blood test may show or how your lungs may sound when someone puts a stethoscope on them, right? So a clinician, if you're trying to understand and help someone, then you do want to look for those things, right? You want to look for the things that are underneath the surface, but that can be very, very important. You also want to look at everything that's on the surface, right? So if you're engaging with someone, you're engaging with the self, right? The self that grows out of the character structure nest, right?

所以，试图理解的方法就像是运用身体健康的类比一样，对吧？如果你来到这里说，我感觉不舒服，对吧？我们可能会进行很多测试，对吧？我们可能会做MRI扫描、CAT扫描，甚至可能会放进内窥镜，听听你体内的声音。这些，我们可以说是无意识的事情。你并不知道影像或者血液检测结果，或者当某人把听诊器放在你的肺上时，你的肺听上去是什么样子的，对吧？所以，诊疗者如果想要理解和帮助某人，你会寻找那些东西，对吧？你会找那些在表面之下的东西，但是那些也可能非常、非常重要。你还会观察每一件表面上的东西，对吧？所以，当你与某人进行互动时，你是在与自我互动，对吧？这个自我是从性格结构的茧里长出来的，对吧？

So by engaging with and doing one's best to understand the self, then you learn about what is underneath of it, right? So I may then learn, well, how do you respond in certain situations, right? Just like I could ask you questions, well, when do you not feel well? Right, so you're asking a person questions because the idea is to understand elements of the character structure. So how do you respond in certain situations? What's going on inside of you? Right, what do you understand about yourself and what do you not understand about yourself? Right, how do you bring yourself to bear in the world around you? So there's a similar process going on, but here we're trying to understand the self, and the understanding of the self can help us understand the components underneath of the self, because that's where we're going to go to make things better, right?

所以通过与自己接触并努力理解自己，就可以了解自己内在的东西，对吧？那么我可能会学习到，怎样在特定情况下应对呢？就像我可以问你问题，比如，你什么时候感觉不舒服？对吧，你问一个人问题是为了理解性格结构的要素。那么在特定情况下，你是如何回应的呢？你内心正在经历什么？对吧，你对自己了解多少？对于自己有哪些不理解的地方？对吧，你如何在周围的世界中发挥自己的作用？所以，这里正在进行着类似的过程，但是这里我们试图理解自己，而对自己的理解可以帮助我们理解自己内在的组成，因为我们要去那里以改善自己，对吧？

The idea is there shouldn't have to be mystery, or certainly not mystery any more than there is in physical health. I mean, you know, rarely someone comes in and they're really not feeling well, and a whole set of everything that should be done is done, right? Labs, physical examination, history, imaging, right, and you still just don't know, right? I mean, sometimes that can happen, but it's very rare, and the same should apply here that if we're examining a self, right, and we're looking for the components out of which that self comes, right, then we should be able to understand well enough to go back to the components of self and to make change so that the self is in a better place, right, and that self can then be empowered, can feel humility, right, can then come at life through the altruism and gratitude that we seek, because again, you show me someone who's coming at life through altruism and gratitude and is not happy with their life, and you'll be showing me something I've never seen before, something entirely new.

这个观点是，不应该有太多神秘感，或者至少在身体健康领域没有比现在更多的神秘感。我的意思是，你知道的，很少有人来就医说自己感觉不舒服，但测试、体检、病史、影像等全套检查都做完了，还是不知道原因，对吧？当然有时候可能会发生这种情况，但是非常罕见。在这里也应该适用同样的原则，如果我们在关注一个自我，并寻找组成这个自我的元素，那么我们应该足够了解自我的构成部分，并做出改变，使得自我处于更好的状态。这样，自我就能变得有力量，能感受到谦逊，并通过我们追求的利他主义和感恩之心来对待生活。因为你告诉我，有人以利他主义和感恩之心对待生活，却对自己的生活不满意，那将是我从未见过的事情，完全新奇的事情。

So if we want to get there, we want to know how to get there, and there are ways, as there should be, that parallel physical health that aren't mysterious, that we can come at to make understanding and change.

所以，如果我们想要达到那个目标，我们希望知道如何实现，并且有一些方法，和身体健康一样，并不神秘，我们可以运用这些方法来加深理解和进行改变。

I'm wondering about the role of anxiety in all of this. The reason I ask about anxiety is that you said that so much of character structure is determined by a set of predispositions and potentialities, and earlier we were talking about, example of either being afraid or unafraid in particular environments or feeling like we can walk into a classroom and learn or whether or not we're overly concerned about what people think about us in both, right, it could be a mix, whether or not we can embrace novel environments in safe and adaptive ways, whether or not we can grow from them as opposed to whether or not we can be overtaken by them or perhaps even injured, harmed, psychologically, physically, or both.

我对焦虑在这一切中的作用很好奇。我之所以问到焦虑，是因为你说角色结构的很大一部分是由一套先天倾向和潜力决定的，并且我们之前在谈论的是，在特定环境中，是害怕还是不害怕，或者我们是否觉得可以走进教室学习，以及我们是否过于关心别人对我们的看法，这可能是一种混合。无论我们能否以安全和适应的方式接纳新环境，能否从中成长，或者是是否会被它们所克服，甚至在心理上、身体上或两者兼有方面产生伤害。

Anxiety to me is a very basic function, I think about it in terms of the autonomic nervous system and degrees of excitability, etc., and ability to sleep at night, and ability to wake up feeling reasonably good but not have a panic attack, but anxiety to me does seem like a key node in all of this, meaning, you know, most people, including myself, I don't walk around thinking about my character structure, I don't walk around thinking about how I'm going to behave in a bunch of hypothetical environments. I think about the fact that most mornings I wake up and I feel pretty good, to be quite honest, not as good as I would like to feel, not necessarily because anything's wrong, but because I think I'm wired to be a little bit more on the anxious side and to predict what's going to happen next and what needs to be done, and so until I'm actually engaging in certain behaviors, that anxiety hums a little bit high for me. The gears turn a little bit faster, perhaps, than I would like when I wake up in the morning, but once I engage, I feel like the speed of that gear turning matches the demands of life pretty well. I feel agency.

对我来说，焦虑是一个非常基本的功能。我把它从自主神经系统和兴奋度等角度来考虑，还有睡眠能力，以及早上醒来时感觉合理而不会发生惊恐发作的能力。但对我来说，焦虑似乎是其中一个关键节点，也就是说，大多数人，包括我自己，在平常生活中不会一直思考自己的性格结构，也不会一直思考在各种假设环境中该如何行为。我思考的是，大多数早晨醒来时我感觉还不错，说实话，不是因为有什么问题，而是因为我觉得我的生理构造使我有点焦虑，并且能够预测接下来会发生什么以及需要做什么事情，所以在我真正参与某些行为之前，焦虑会在我身上变得更加强烈。早晨醒来时，我的思绪转得可能比我希望的要快一点，但是一旦我投入其中，我觉得思维的速度与生活的需求相当契合。我感到自主性。

So if you don't mind, could we explore this feeling of anxiety or lack of anxiety that I think people are pretty familiar with within themselves, at different times of day and under different conditions? Because to me, it seems like an interesting lens to explore this notion of character structure and defenses. Is anxiety a healthy defense or an unhealthy defense, or does it simply depend on the circumstances?

所以，如果您不介意的话，我们能否探索一下这种焦虑或缺乏焦虑的感受？我认为人们在不同时间和条件下对此都相当熟悉。因为对我来说，它似乎是一种有趣的视角，可以探索个性结构和自卫机制。焦虑是一种健康的自卫机制还是不健康的自卫机制，或者它仅仅取决于情况？

Well, we all have some degree of anxiety in us. We all have some awareness that we're navigating the world, and not everything is perfect. This is not nirvana, so there's some anxiety within us, and the thought is that that anxiety can keep us vigilant about the things we should be vigilant about, health and safety, but that too much anxiety then becomes counterproductive.

嗯，我们所有的人都有着某种程度的焦虑感。我们都意识到自己在生活中航行，而不是一切完美无缺。这个世界并不是尘世极乐，所以我们内心都存在一些焦虑，而这种焦虑可以让我们对健康和安全保持警惕。然而，太多的焦虑则会变得无益。

And we can look at this in a very regimented way. So some anxiety makes sense. It keeps us being careful. It keeps you being careful as you're pulling out of a driveway, for example. So it can be absolutely fine, but let's say you bring something to clinical attention that isn't absolutely fine. Let's say I didn't know you and you come in, we have the example that you used before, where you walk into work and there's a group of people that you know well and like. Let's say you told me, when I walk in there, I feel very anxious. I don't feel like things are okay.

我们可以以非常有组织的方式来看待这个问题。所以，有些焦虑是可以理解的。它使我们保持谨慎。比如说当你从车道上开出来时，它会让你小心翼翼。所以，它可能完全没问题，但是假设你把一些不是完全没有问题的事情带到临床注意中。假设我不认识你，你走进来，我们就用你之前提到的例子，你走进工作场所，有一群你认识并喜欢的人。假设你告诉我，当我走进去的时候，我感到非常焦虑。我觉得事情不对劲。

So then we would go through it. We said that's not good. Maybe it's impacting your professional life, things are not going well. You really want this to change because it's impacting your life in a negative way. We say, okay, let's look at that from the perspective of structure of self. So first, unconscious. Is it that just genetically are you built with just higher levels of anxiety? So we could learn, okay, have you always been anxious like this? Is this always been in your life since you were a little kid no matter what? So we're looking for biological nature, so to speak, variables.

所以我们会继续讨论这个问题。我们说，这样不好。也许它正在影响你的职业生涯，事情不顺利。你真的希望改变这种情况，因为它对你的生活产生了负面影响。我们说，好的，让我们从自我结构的角度来看待这个问题。首先是潜意识。是不是基因上你天生就有更高水平的焦虑？所以我们可以了解，你一直都像这样焦虑吗？不管你从小到大，这种情况一直存在吗？所以我们在寻找生物性的因素，可以说是变量。

We might also look for things that have happened to you that are lodged in your unconscious mind. Is there trauma that you haven't processed, that now is underneath the surface but is spinning off more anxiety? Let's say you tell me, oh, it wasn't that long ago you started being anxious. Did something happen? Did you walk into a group of people and I don't know, you tripped and you felt bad about something, right? Then you get more anxious, right? So are there things going on underneath the surface that are impacting you? Like, let's look into that, right? Because that's the biggest part of the iceberg, right?

我们还可以寻找你潜意识中困扰着你的事情。是否有你尚未处理的创伤，现在隐藏在表面下，但又不断产生更多的焦虑？假设你告诉我，你最近开始焦虑了。是否发生了一些事情？你走进一群人中间，然后不知怎么的摔倒了，你对此感到难过，对吗？然后你变得更加焦虑，对吗？所以在你潜意识下是否有一些正在影响着你的事情？让我们来研究一下，对吗？因为那是冰山最大的部分，对吗？

Then your conscious mind, we could start thinking about, okay, what's going on? What are you actively thinking about, right? So this is where sometimes cognitive behavioral techniques can come into mind. Like, are you thinking, like, oh no, I'm scared, it isn't going to go well, right? Like, are you having thoughts or the thoughts and making you more anxious, right? What's going on in your conscious mind, right? I would also be very interested in the defenses around you. So, for example, do you tend to avoid, right? Has this been getting worse for three months, but you just, your mind wouldn't acknowledge it, right? And by the time you have to acknowledge it, now it's really bad, right? Or do you not avoid and like, this started, just started happening and you wouldn't end up it in the bud, right? So I would be interested in the defense mechanisms, right, that are girding your conscious self and I would be interested in the character structure. What decisions are you then making? Like, are you going anyway, right? Are you having trouble so sometimes you avoid? Are you then making decisions that make you late? And that causes problems. How does it impact you once you're there? Are you engaging differently with people, doing your work differently? So I want to understand the character structure and ultimately you understand all of this by probing the self that's riding along on top of it.

你的意识思维，我们可以开始思考，好的，发生了什么？你正在积极地思考什么？因此，这就是有时认知行为技术可以派上用场的地方。比如，你是否在想，哦不，我害怕，事情不会顺利，对吗？你的思维是否在使你更加焦虑？你的意识思维中发生了什么？我也对你周围的防御机制非常感兴趣。例如，你是否倾向于逃避？这种情况已经持续恶化了三个月，但你的思维不愿承认它，对吗？直到你不得不承认它，现在情况变得非常糟糕，对吗？或者你是否没有逃避，而是这种情况刚刚开始发生，而你没有及时解决它，对吗？我对固守你的意识自我的防御机制非常感兴趣，我对性格结构也很感兴趣。你然后做出了什么决定？比如，你还是去了吗？有时候你是否避开了？你是否做出了导致你迟到的决定？这是否造成了问题？你到达目的地后，它对你产生了怎样的影响？你是否与人们的交往方式不同，工作方式也不同？因此，我想了解你的性格结构，并最终通过对上面所说自我进行深入探索来理解所有这些。

And then what is the experience of that self? Like, do you see that, okay, this is a problem and I want to address it, but like, look, I know that I'm good at what I do. And, you know, I mean, this isn't some like awful thing about me. I just have to deal with it, right? Or is your self impacted where you start thinking, maybe I can't do this anymore. I'm not good enough. Or, you know, we want to understand what's the experience of the self, right? And if we do all of that, how is it that we don't get to a place where we can understand that anxiety, right? And then we can make things better. So just like in physical health, okay, maybe we can't. But that is a dramatic outlier. If we bring ourselves to bear, we would say, you should not have to have this in you, right? Because it is something negative. It is making unhappiness for you. It is taking away from empowerment, right? And it's also taking away from humility, right? Because if someone's beating up on themselves, you're beating up on yourself about it, then that's not humility, right? That's being sort of falsely persecutory, right? It's not an honest humility to that. It leads us away from health. So we don't want it to be this way, right? Because that is working against agency and gratitude so we can understand it and we can go after it and make it better.

然后这个自我经历是什么样的呢？比如说，你是否意识到这是个问题并且想要解决，但是你也知道自己擅长自己的工作。我的意思是，并不是说这是我可怕的一面，只是我需要处理一下，对吧？或者你是否受到了影响，开始怀疑自己是否做不来这份工作了，是否不够出色？我们想要理解的是自我感受，对吗？如果我们都明白了这些，为什么我们不能理解焦虑呢？然后我们可以让事情变得更好。就像身体健康一样，也许我们不能改变某些事情。但那只是极端的例外。如果我们用心去面对，我们会说，你不应该内心有这样的负面情绪，因为它带给你的是不幸和无助感。它还会削弱谦卑感，因为如果一个人一直责备自己，那并不是真正的谦卑，而是一种虚假的自我指责。它会让我们偏离健康的轨道。所以我们不希望事情变成这样，因为它违背了主动性和感激之心，我们可以理解它，并努力改善。

One of the most common questions I get on the Internet, and I get a lot of questions, is what can be done to improve confidence? And I've thought a lot about that question and what is confidence. In the context of what we're talking about now is one reasonable definition of confidence, our ability to trust our predispositions and our potentialities enough that we're to encounter scenarios A through Z, we feel pretty good that we would respond the right way. In a way that wouldn't threaten our conscious mind at a core level, right?

在互联网上，我经常收到一些问题，而其中最常见的问题之一就是如何提高信心。我思考过这个问题，对于信心是什么，有了很多的想法。在我们目前讨论的背景下，信心的一个合理定义是我们相信自己的倾向和潜力，以至于如果遇到从A到Z的情况，我们相信自己能够以正确的方式应对。以一种不会威胁到我们内心深处的意识的方式。

That we wouldn't, I used to use the term and joke a lot in my laboratory with the phrase, you know, dissolve into a puddle of our own tears, right? It's kind of this hyperbolic explanation of what I think many people fear. Like they're going to be called upon to answer a question publicly or give us each or they're going to be at a critical moment in a relationship or something. And just everything is just going to go so badly wrong that it's just going to dissolve them as a person. It's impossible, right? Dissolve in a puddle of our own tears is impossible, but I think that's a fear that a lot of people live with because we can get into this a little bit later and we will. I'm sure, you know, this notion of like protecting one's ego seems really vital to being a human being at some level. Like we don't want to dissolve into a puddle of our own tears.

我们不会，我曾经在实验室里经常使用这个词和短语开玩笑，你知道吧，溶于自己的泪水中，对吧？这有点夸张地解释了我认为很多人所担心的情况。就像他们将被要求公开回答问题或给出建议，或者他们将处于关键时刻的人际关系中。然后一切就会变得非常糟糕，以至于他们会作为一个人消失。这是不可能的，对吧？溶于自己的泪水中是不可能的，但我认为很多人都生活在这样的恐惧中，因为我们可以稍后再深入讨论，我相信保护自己的自尊心对于成为一个人类是非常重要的。就像我们不想溶于自己的泪水中一样。

So is confidence the ability to trust ourselves in a bunch of different contexts? And at the same time, I do have to raise this notion of narcissism. I think, you know, this word gets thrown around a lot lately, but it seems to me that any truly psychologically healthy person would also not want to be the idiot that thinks that they're better than they actually are. That's a what are your thoughts on this?

那么自信是指在各种不同环境中相信自己的能力吗？同时，我也要提出自恋的概念。我认为，你知道，最近这个词经常被人们乱用，但在我看来，任何真正心理健康的人也不会希望成为那种自以为比自己实际水平更高的傻瓜。你对此有何想法？

Well, I agree with the things that you that you said about confidence, except I would add two factors that I think are really big, big factors, right? One being state dependence and the other being phenomenology, right? So think about the state dependence first, right? We're talking about confidence. It's not uniform, right? Or it's not automatically uniform, right? So if you were to tell me, oh, I lack confidence, right? Then I want to understand, is that across the board? Is that a way that you feel about yourself? I'm not good enough at anything, for example, right? Or do you lack confidence in a specific area?

嗯，关于自信的事情，我同意你说的除了两个我认为非常重要的因素，对吧？一个是状态依赖，另一个是现象学，对吧？首先我们来谈谈状态依赖，对吧？我们说的是自信，它并不是一致的，对吧？或者说并不是自动一致的，对吧？所以如果你告诉我说，哦，我缺乏自信，对吧？那我想要了解的是，这是全面的吗？这是你对自己的整体感受吗？例如，我在任何方面都不够好？还是你在某个特定领域缺乏自信？

And this is often the case, right? And it's a huge difference, right? It says that person has the machinery of confidence, so to speak, right? They have the potentialities and the predispositions for confidence, right? When that character structure that's self-built upon it is engaging with the world, right? But they're not able to bring it to bear in a certain special situation, so to speak. So for some people, for example, the way we most often see this is like the carve-out of romance, right? Where because it's so emotionally laden, right? And like rejection can feel so bad, right? That we can see people who are very confident in many, many aspects of life, but they are very different about romance. And they'll say different, oh, it never works out for me, or no one will ever like me, right? And you see, like, that's not how that person actually feels, right? About themselves as a whole human being, right?

而且这种情况经常发生，对吗？而且这是一个很大的差距，对吗？这意味着这个人有信心的机制，可以这么说，对吗？他们有信心的潜力和倾向，对吗？当这种以自己为本的性格结构与世界发生联系时，对吗？但他们无法在某种特殊情况下发挥它的作用，可以这么说。所以对于一些人来说，例如，我们最常见的就是感情的割舍对吗？因为它如此情感上负重，对吗？而且拒绝会感到很糟糕，对吗？我们可以看到在生活的许多方面他们非常有信心，但对于感情问题，他们就截然不同了。他们会说不同的话，比如，对我从来没有好结果，或者没有人会喜欢我，对吧？你会看到，那不是这个人真正的感受，对吗？关于他们作为一个完整的人的自我感受，对吗？

Which is, then we are coming at how to make that better in a way that's very robust, right? We might say something like, hey, here's the good news is you have the tools and the machinery that you need, right? You're confident in so many ways, right? In fact, maybe in all ways, accept this one. So let's go take a look at, like, why is that special, right? And then where are we? Where back to is it something? And the unconscious mind, is it something in the conscious mind now? That person is engaging, right? So we have to understand what the state is, and if the lack of confidence is state dependent. If the person is not confident across the board, then, again, we go back to the same, we always go back to the same places to look, right? But then you might more think, okay, is there an impact of childhood trauma or early life trauma that took away from that person, you know, their ability to gain confidence, right? Because if you have no confidence across the board, there's a deeper problem, right? Because there would be something anyone can be good about and feel confident in, right?

那么，我们现在来讨论如何以一种非常稳健的方式来改善这种情况，对吧？我们可以说一些好消息，你拥有所需的工具和机械，对吧？在很多方面你都很自信，对吧？事实上，也许在所有方面都是如此，除了这一点。所以让我们来看看，为什么这个特别，对吧？现在我们在哪里？在无意识的思维中吗？现在是在有意识的思维中？那个人正在参与其中，对吧？所以我们必须了解当前的状态，并确定缺乏信心是否依赖于状态。如果一个人在各个方面都不自信，那么我们再次回到同样的地方去寻找答案，对吧？但你可能会更多地考虑，童年创伤或早期生活创伤是否对这个人的自信心造成了影响，因为如果你在各个方面都毫无信心，那就有一个更深层次的问题，对吧？因为任何人都能在某个方面表现出色，并感到自信，对吧？

So the state dependence is very important, as is phenomenology. So what is your experience of being confident? If you tell me, well, let's say in a different version of this example, you say, you know, actually, I feel quite confident when I walk into a room of people, I say, okay, I want to understand more about that too, right? Because if I ask questions about that and you say, well, I feel confident because, you know, look, I'm a pretty smart person, I can think on my feet, I can deal well with people, if something doesn't go right, I can recover from it, like, I have got, you know, I have to feel confident, you know, and say, okay, that sounds pretty good.

因此，状态依赖性非常重要，现象学也很重要。那么你对自信的体验是怎样的呢？如果你告诉我，在这个例子的不同版本中，你说，你知道，实际上，当我走进一个房间里的人群时，我感到非常自信，那么我希望了解更多关于这个的原因，对吧？因为如果我对此提出问题，你会说，你知道，我觉得自信是因为，看吧，我是一个相当聪明的人，我能迅速应对，我与人相处很好，如果出了问题，我能从中恢复过来，我得有自信，你知道，我会说，好的，听起来不错。

If you say, well, I feel confident because I know that I'm better than everybody, right? Now we have a problem, right? Like, that's not going to go well in other, you know, in other aspects of life and engagement, like, you know, it's not going to lead to humility and gratitude. So where's that coming from? And again, maybe there's a deeper problem, right? There's narcissism, right, which can be a reaction, right, which is a reaction to vulnerability, right? So then there's, was got a reaction formation, and now the person is actually deeply diffident, right, but presents as very, very confident and with a sense of superiority, and that's not a recipe for happiness, right?

如果你说，嗯，我感觉自信是因为我知道我比任何人都好，对吧？这样我们就有一个问题了，对吧？就是，这在其他方面的生活和互动中不会很顺利，比如说，这不会导致谦卑和感激。那这是从哪里来的呢？可能存在一个更深层次的问题，对吧？那就是自恋，这可能是对脆弱的一种反应。然后就会出现一种反应形成，现在这个人实际上内心非常不自信，但表现得非常自信和优越感，这并不是幸福的秘诀，对吧？

So in approaching it, we do want to understand all the things that you said, what are the factors and the set of predispositions and the set of potentialities, but then what's the real world experience of that across situations and what is the person's experience of that inside, which is why if we're going to understand and help people, like, that's the understand part, right? You know, it's why the conveyor belt medicine, you know, it doesn't work, right? In situations where we're dealing with human beings, like mental health, right? We have to understand something about people to understand whatever they're telling us means. Otherwise you have no context, so you have no knowledge.

因此，在处理此事时，我们确实希望了解您所说的所有事情，包括因素、倾向以及潜在可能性，然后再考虑到这一切在现实世界中的经验以及个人在其中的体验。这也正是为什么我们需要理解并帮助人们，对吗？你知道的，这就是理解的部分。你知道的，传送带一样的医疗方式是行不通的，对吧？在我们与人打交道的情况下，比如心理健康，我们必须了解人们的一些情况，才能理解他们告诉我们的意思。否则，你就没有任何背景知识，也就无法理解。

Another very common set of questions that I get that I believe is very directly related to this is about beliefs and internal narratives. You know, people ask me all the time, how can I change what I believe about myself? And they also ask, how can I change the script in my head? How do I typically it's how do I shut down a particular narrative in my head? It seems to fit very well in thinking about structure of self, because as you pointed out, you know, the self or the structure of self includes the unconscious mind, you know, what's going on below the surface of the water in this iceberg model. What's going on in the conscious mind that the conscious mind is protected by these defense mechanisms that grow up from the unconscious mind from that character structure and then this thing that we call the self, right?

另一个非常常见的问题集，我认为与此非常直接相关的是关于信念和内在叙事。你知道，人们经常问我，我怎样能改变我对自己的信念？他们还问，我怎样能改变脑海中的脚本？通常是说，我怎样才能关闭脑海中的某个叙事？这似乎非常符合对自我的结构的思考，因为正如你所指出的，自我或自我的结构包括潜意识，也就是这个冰山模型下水面以下的事物。意识中正在发生的事情，意识受到这些来自潜意识中的防御机制的保护，而这些防御机制来自于角色结构，然后我们称之为自我，对吧？

But when it comes to beliefs and internal narratives, those seem to me, things that people are pretty well aware of. In fact, the very example that people are asking me this all the time, how to change beliefs and internal narratives means they are aware of them. It also suggests that for many people out there, their beliefs about themselves and their internal narratives are not healthy or at least they don't feel are serving them well or that they are intrusive. I don't know how open people are about their beliefs and internal narratives when they come to you in your clinical practice, but you could tell us a little bit about beliefs and internal narratives and whether or not they are important to rewire and reset. This part is extremely important, right?

但是，当谈到信仰和内心叙述时，这些对我来说似乎是人们非常清楚的事情。事实上，人们一直在问我如何改变信念和内心叙述的问题，这意味着他们对此是有意识的。这也表明，对于很多人来说，他们对自己的信念和内心叙述并不健康，或者至少他们感觉这些信念和叙述对他们没有益处，或者它们是令他们感到困扰的。我不知道当他们来到你的临床实践中时，人们对自己的信念和内心叙述有多开放，但你可以跟我们谈谈信念和内心叙述是否重塑和重设的重要性。这一部分非常重要，对吧？

So imagine, for example, that I'm saying to myself over and over again that I'm a loser, right? I'm not good enough, right? I mean, imagine trying to go through life and someone else were saying that to you all the time, right? I mean, it's worse when it's inside your own head, right? So what's going on inside of us, our internal dialogue, our internal narratives are extremely important.

想象一下，比如说我一遍又一遍地对自己说我是一个失败者，对吧？我不够好，对吧？我是说，想象一下如果有人一直对你说这样的话，你生活起来会多糟糕，对吧？而当这些话出现在自己的脑海里时，情况就更糟糕了，对吧？因此，我们内心深处的自我对话，内部情节非常重要。

And here's where we run into a very big problem is that we live in an era and in a culture that is very attuned to rapid gratification, right? And all of this that we're talking about can change, but it does not change quickly. And it's amazing to me when you'll see under insurance paradigms often, right? No matter what's going on with someone, they get 10 sessions of cognitive behavioral treatment, right? If there's something like we're trying to change beliefs, it's a guarantee of failure, right? Because beliefs don't change that fast, right?

这里出现了一个非常大的问题，那就是我们生活在一个非常注重即刻满足的时代和文化里，对吧？我们所说的这一切可以发生变化，但是变化不会很快。当你看到在保险范畴下经常出现的情况时，这让我觉得很惊讶。无论发生什么事情，人们只能接受10次认知行为治疗的课程。如果我们试图改变信念，这就是注定失败的，因为信念并不会改变得那么快。

So imagine, for example, that we, you and I chose a word, a random word, and we decided to say it 500 times, right? We'd each be saying it tonight, right? Like it's not going to be out of our minds by tonight, but because we took a random word and said it 500 times, right? So imagine that there's something that's highly emotionally laden, and we've said it thousands and thousands and thousands of times, right? That's not going to go away quickly, right? But it can go away, and during the process of it atrophying, right, our lives can get better, right? This is the opposite of hopeless, right? It's actually very, very encouraging, but in a world that's rapid gratification, right, like how do we fix this? How do we fix this now that doesn't acknowledge this?

所以试想一下，比如说，我们，你和我，选择一个词，一个随机的词，然后决定重复说500遍，对吧？我们今晚都会说它，对吧？就好像到今晚我们的脑海中不会忘记它一样，因为我们选择了一个随机的词并说了500次，对吧？所以想象一下，如果有一件情感非常强烈的事情，我们说了它几千次，对吧？它不会很快消失，对吧？但是它可以消失，并且在它逐渐衰退的过程中，我们的生活可以变得更好，对吧？这正好相反于绝望，对吧？实际上，这非常鼓舞人心，但在一个追求即时满足的世界中，我们该如何解决这个问题呢？我们如何立即解决它而不承认这个事实呢？

We hear all the time that a person has failed therapy, right? Like this is said all the time that person failed. It was failed therapy, mean, right? I mean, I think therapy failed that person, right? But we label like, oh, a person isn't better, right? But there are things going on inside of us that could take months and months or years to make better.

我们经常听到一个人失败了治疗，对吗？就好像这样被说过很多次，那个人失败了。这意味着治疗失败了，对吗？我的意思是，我认为是治疗让那个人失败了，对吗？但我们常常标签化说，哦，这个人没有变好，对吗？但是我们内心深处可能发生的事情可能需要几个月甚至几年才能改善。

Now again, that's okay if we're aware of what's going on. Just the very fact that we understand and we're making change, right, it helps us feel better about ourselves and more confident, right, that we can change all of this, but we have to approach it in the right way.

现在再说一遍，如果我们意识到正在发生的事情，那是没问题的。仅仅是我们理解并且正在做出改变的这个事实，对我们自己来说有助于让我们感觉更好，更有信心，我们能够改变这一切，但我们必须以正确的方式来对待它。

So let's say that I'm telling myself over and over again, you're not going to get there, right? And let's say a place I want to go professionally, right? Or no one's ever going to really want you, right? If I'm looking for a romantic partner, right? So imagine these things are going on and they're going on over and over again. And you can imagine now that it's intruded into the unconscious mind, it's going on in my conscious mind, my defensive structure is shifting in negative ways, I'm becoming more avoidant.

所以假设我一遍又一遍地告诉自己，你不会成功，对吧？假设这是我职业上想要去的一个地方，对吧？或者没有人真的会渴望你，对吧？如果我在寻找一个浪漫的伴侣，对吧？所以想象一下，这些事情一直在发生，一遍又一遍。你可以想象现在它已经渗透到了潜意识中，正在发生在我的意识中，我的防御机制正在以消极的方式改变，我变得更加回避。

Like nothing about this is good and I want it to change. And I want it to change to something that says, like, you can do it, right? Or you're lovable, right? Or you can be a good partner to someone with it. So I want to change it, right? So imagine now, when I start to make that change, I'm blazing a path, right? And I'm blazing a path where there wasn't a path before, right? And I can blaze a path and I can go through that path.

就好像这一点都不好，我希望能改变。而我想要改变成一种表达，比如，你能做到的，对吧？或者你是可爱的，对吧？或者你可以成为对某人有益的伴侣。所以我想要改变，对吧？那么想象一下，当我开始做出这种改变时，我正在开辟一条道路，对吧？而且是在以前没有道路的地方开辟一条道路，对吧？我可以拓宽一条道路，然后穿过这条道路。

But that path is going to be nothing like maybe the four-lane highway, right? Adjacent to me where the thing that I've been telling myself for years and years and years, born of trauma, right, is going back and forth, right? I mean, it's got a four-lane highway, I'm cutting a path, right? But over time, you cut that path more and more, you tread that path more and more, you take energy towards that path, it becomes better.

但是那条路将不会像四车道高速公路一样，对吧？就在我身边，那些我长年累月一直告诉自己的东西，是由创伤所产生的，对吧？它来回交替，就像有一条四车道高速公路，而我正在开辟一条道路，对吧？但随着时间的推移，你越来越多地开辟这条道路，你越来越多地踏上这条道路，你把精力投向这条道路，它变得越来越好。

Now let's imagine, like, the path is well-lit and it's 12 feet wide and maybe we can pave the path so more traffic, so to speak, goes down it. And we're taking energy away from that four-lane highway and maybe it starts to be overgrown a little bit and there are cracks in the road, like, we can change all of that.

现在我们来想象一下，比如说，路是明亮的，宽度为12英尺，或许我们可以铺设路面，以便更多的交通，可以说是流经这条路。我们正在从那条四车道的公路中夺取能量，或许它开始有点长满草木，路上有裂缝，但是我们可以改变这一切。

But we have to understand what's going on and identify it. Like, what is going on inside of me? What do I make of it, right? How do I understand the process of change? How do I increase my empowerment during the process of change? If we come at it the right way, all of this can be changed.

但我们必须理解正在发生的事情并加以识别。比如说，我内心发生了什么？我如何理解它呢？如何理解变化的过程？在变化的过程中，如何增强自己的权力？如果我们以正确的方式来对待它，所有这些都可以改变。

It's not hardwired in us, it's just very, very strongly reinforced. The same way our brains are built this way, so we don't forget our own names, right? You know, we don't forget where we live, you know, back when we were hunting and gathering and we don't forget where the good fruits are, right? I mean, this goes on in human life now. Like, we have to remember things. It's very, very important if something has high emotional valence and we've thought it a lot that we don't forget it.

这不是天生的，只是被非常非常强烈地加强了。就像我们的大脑是这样构建的，所以我们不会忘记自己的名字，对吗？你知道的，我们不会忘记我们住在哪里，你知道的，在我们还是狩猎和采集的时候，我们也不会忘记哪里有好的水果，对吗？我是说，这在人类生活中一直都存在。就像我们必须记住事情一样，如果某件事情具有高情绪价值并且我们经常思考它，就非常非常重要不要忘记它。

But that mechanism gets hijacked by things that are not good for us and we can take it back, but not if we don't understand. What are the tools or the questions that you give or ask of patients in order to help them along that pathway?

但是那个机制被对我们不利的事物劫持了，我们可以夺回控制权，但前提是我们必须理解。为了帮助他们走上正确的道路，你会给病人提供哪些工具或问题呢？

Because I totally agree that changing beliefs and internal narratives is very, very hard. Just one quick example that meshes with the physical health realm. I have a friend and colleague, he's a very accomplished scientist who was very overweight for a long period of time. He finally made some behavioral changes that allowed him to lose.

因为我完全同意改变信念和内部叙事非常非常困难。这里有一个与身体健康领域相符的简单例子。我有一个朋友和同事，他是一个非常有成就的科学家，长时间以来一直非常超重。最终，他做出了一些行为上的改变，使自己能够减肥。

I think it was in upwards of 80 pounds. A significant amount of weight felt much better, looked much better. He just delighted in his ability to do that, but then started to reveal to me that he was deathly afraid that he was going to lose control and start eating the way he was before and stop exercising in a way that would return him to his previous weight and feelings of malaise.

我想那可能超过了80磅。减掉了相当多的体重，感觉好多了，看起来也好多了。他为自己能够做到这一点感到非常高兴，但后来开始向我透露，他非常担心自己会失控，重新开始暴饮暴食并停止锻炼，从而恢复到之前的体重和压抑感。

I said, well, all the things you're doing are in the direction of health. None of what you're doing speaks to the possibility of this all crumbling. This was the dissolve into a puddle of my own tears kind of narrative, but at this point coming from him. And he just said, I know, but despite doing all the right things, I'm still incredibly afraid that it's going to happen.

我说，唔，你所做的一切都是为了健康着想。你所做的事情中没有一样能用来证明可能会崩溃的事情。这是我自己泪流成河的故事情节，但现在变成了来自他的故事。而他只是说：“我知道，但尽管做了一切正确的事情，我仍然非常担心它会发生。”

It was as if the beliefs and the internal narratives hadn't changed despite the fact that he was engaging in the world differently and more positively. I haven't checked in with him recently to find out where he's at with us now several years later. He has kept off most of the weight, not all of it gained a little bit back, but he's still far healthier than he ever was. So hopefully he's experienced some relief.

尽管他对世界的参与方式更加积极，但他的信念和内心故事似乎没有改变。最近我没有与他取得联系，不知道几年后他在我们这方面的进展如何。他成功地保持了大部分体重，虽然稍微有些回升，但他比以往任何时候都更加健康。希望他能感到一些缓解。

But what do you tell a patient who is saying, I've got this loop in my head that tells me I'm not good enough, or that even when things are going well, they're going to return to that state that I fear so much once again. This kind of lack of agency, right? Just lack of agency, lack of agency, lack of empowerment.

但是，你对一个说出“我脑子里一直有一个声音告诉我自己不够好”的患者说什么？或者说，即使事情顺利，在我如此害怕的那种状态返回的时候，它们还会回到那种状态。这种缺乏主动性，对吧？就是缺乏主动性、缺乏主动性和缺乏自我能力感。

What sorts of practical tools can one give themselves or that you would provide to somebody? No matter what is behind what's going on in that person's mind, it's addressable. But you don't know what it is and how to address it until we ask the question of what's going on inside.

有哪些实用工具可以给自己或你会提供给别人？无论这个人的内心世界隐藏了什么，都是可以解决的。但在我们提问“内心发生了什么”之前，你无法知道具体是什么问题以及如何应对。

So if he's afraid that he's going to gain all that weight back, and he has a history that if significant negative things happen, he throws self-care to the wind. Then we'd come at it through that pattern, because he would have a good reason to be worried, because this pattern of something bad happens and I don't take care of myself for six months, and maybe someone, I'm just making this up, and maybe someone in his life is ill or he's fearing a death.

所以如果他害怕重新长回那么多体重，而且他过去有过这样的经历，即当发生重大负面事件时，他会完全忽略自我保健。那么我们将从这个模式入手，因为他有足够的理由感到担心，因为这种模式是这样的：遇到不好的事情后我就会六个月不照顾自己，也许某人（我只是编了一个例子）在他的生活中生病了，或者他担心有人要去世。

And if you choose something that would say, that's a very legitimate fear to have, let's talk about that. Where that comes from, what got that person into that pattern in the first place, by understanding the pattern and by working together, can we stave that off? But it could be different. The person might say, I'm having a lot of food cravings, and we're like, okay, what does that mean? Where's that coming from? Or maybe he's depressed, and when he's getting depressed and when he's depressed, he can't stop eating more. So you would look, or it might just be plain old fear, like this is so good, that I'm worried it will go away.

如果你选择了一些会说，“那是一个非常合理的恐惧”，我们来谈谈这个恐惧。它来自哪里？是什么使这个人陷入这样的恐惧模式？通过理解这种模式，通过共同努力，我们能够避免这种情况发生吗？但情况可能会有所不同。这个人可能会说，“我有很多对食物的渴望”，我们会问，“那代表着什么？这是从哪里来的？”或者他可能是抑郁了，当他感到抑郁或者在抑郁时，他无法停止过多地进食。所以你要去观察，或者可能只是简单的恐惧，比如说这么好的东西，我担心它会消失。

Then we might want to reinforce, like, okay, you're a person who's able to use circumspection and perseverance and preserve goodness. So you do that and you do that really well. So let's make sure we're doing that here. So a lot of times a person is worried, but that worry is coming through the lens of health, like they're healthy. So then we look at, okay, can we sue that worry? Where's that coming from? We can come at it and reinforce the positive. But if there is something negative, there's a trauma-driven cycle, there's depression, there are cravings, we can understand that too.

然后我们可能想要加强，比如，好吧，你是一个能够谨慎思考、坚持不懈并保持善良的人。所以你做到了，而且做得非常好。所以让我们确保在这里也是如此。很多时候，一个人会感到担忧，但这种担忧是从健康的角度来看的，就好像他们很健康一样。那么我们就要看一下，这个担忧是从哪里来的？我们可以从积极的角度来对待它，并加以加强。但如果有什么消极的因素，比如创伤驱动的循环、抑郁症、渴望，我们也能理解。

So I come back to this idea that there's answers to just about everything, and in a very regimented scientific way, it's not that hard to come to them, just like in physical medicine, like we have the tools that we need to bring to bear, but you have to understand the person. Again, if you come in and say, I'm not feeling good, and someone else comes in and says, I'm not feeling good, the doctor better not do the same things. How are you not feeling good? Okay, let me understand that, and then let me map that also to you, whatever underlying state of health you may have or diagnoses you may have. The same is true in mental health. If we just apply that, then it's remarkable, the good that we do, which I've seen very consistently across 20 years of doing this, not only in my own practice, but who are the people who do really, really well, trying to understand and take care of people, including sometimes not doing too much, and realizing, like, yeah, this person is okay, like there's a state of healthier, but this person is worried, how do we reassure them, right? How do we help someone living a good life, live a better life, right? If we're going to do all of this, we have to approach people as individuals.

所以我回到了这个观点，即几乎每件事都有答案，而且以一种非常有规律的科学方式，来找到这些答案并不难，就像在物理医学中一样，我们有必要采取的工具都已备齐，但你必须理解这个人。如果你说自己感觉不舒服，而另一个人也说自己感觉不舒服，医生最好不要采取相同的做法。你为什么感觉不舒服？好吧，让我理解一下，然后也要考虑一下你可能存在的基本健康状态或诊断。在心理健康方面也是如此。如果我们只是应用这一原则，那么我们所做的事情将是令人惊讶的好，我在过去的20年中一直如此，不仅在我自己的实践中，而且在那些真正真正做得很好的人身上，他们试图理解和照顾别人，有时也意识到不要做得太过分，认识到某些人是好的，就像有一种更健康的状态，但这些人确实感到担心，我们如何安抚他们呢？我们如何帮助一个过上好生活的人过上更好的生活呢？如果我们要做所有这些，我们必须把人作为个体来对待。

It's just, I mean, the science tells us that, and common sense tells us that too, but if we do that, a person can get to the place they want to be. I'd like to address a different person, as an example, a hypothetical person, and I'm certain there are many, many of these people out there. These are the sorts of people that think, okay, there's a self and a mind and a unconscious mind, et cetera, but, you know, at some level, why not just do what needs to be done in life? Like the people that don't want to explore the cells, you know, because to me, it seems so absolutely clear that just as it's important to have a certain level of endurance, strength, flexibility so that one can extract the most joy and agency and gratitude and empowerment and humility from life, that it makes sense to explore the self, to ask, you know, where am I internally strong? Where am I internally weak? You know, where might I perceive myself as strong as I'm actually weak, right?

这只是，我的意思是，科学告诉我们那样做，常识也告诉我们那样做，但如果我们这样做，一个人可以到达他们想要去的地方。我想举一个不同的例子，一个假设的人，我确信有很多很多这样的人存在。这些人认为，好吧，有一个自我、一个心智和一个无意识的心智等等，但是，你知道，在某种程度上，为什么不只是做生活中需要做的事情呢？就像那些不想探索细胞的人一样，你知道，对我来说，似乎非常清楚，就像拥有一定程度的耐力、力量、灵活性一样重要，这样我们才能从生活中获得最大的快乐、主动性、感激和力量，并保持谦卑，探索自我是有意义的，问问自己，我在哪些方面内在强大？我在哪些方面内在薄弱？我可能认为自己很强大，但实际上很薄弱，对吧？

These seem like very important, if not crucial questions to ask, but I know that there are a certain number of people in the world. I think all of that is just kind of a waste of time, right? It's all about doing stuff. It's all, you know, why explore the self, you know, and I think the rest of us are looking at that person often and thinking, well, you're exactly the kind of person that needs to do this because of the way that you grate on other people, but not always, right?

这些似乎是非常重要，如果不是至关重要的问题，但我知道世界上有一定数量的人。我认为这一切都只是浪费时间，对吗？它们都关乎行动。那些探索自我为什么如此重要呢？我认为我们其他人常常看着那个人，并想着，嗯，你就是那种需要这样做的人，因为你对其他人的刺激方式，但并不总是这样，对吧？

Sometimes these people just appear to be just very effective. They're all about the outward expression of what they're doing. And I certainly don't know how other people feel waking up in the morning and going to sleep at night and throughout the day, but to the person that feels like introspection and exploring, maybe even excavating for trauma that they haven't been in touch with or haven't dealt with yet, but the person that feels that all of that is kind of not really worth the effort and that's all about action.

有时候，这些人似乎只是非常有效率而已。他们全心全意地展示自己正在做的事情。我当然不知道其他人早上醒来、晚上入睡以及整个白天是怎么感受的，但对于那些喜欢自省和探索，甚至是挖掘他们尚未接触或尚未处理过的创伤的人来说，这一切可能并不值得努力，而那些只关注行动的人则认为这是没有什么价值的。

You know, what can we say to that person or those people? Put differently, does one need to change and need to believe in the power of these sorts of approaches in order for them to work? We often hear that people don't change until they want to change. And could we also say perhaps that even for the people that feel like they're functioning extremely well in all domains of life, I know no such people. And I know some very high achieving people as you do too. I know no such people. The only people who seem to exist in that sphere are the clear narcissists that to them, just like they're doing great, but everyone else can't stand them.

你知道，我们对那个人或者那些人能说些什么呢？换句话说，一个人需要改变，需要相信这些方式的力量，才能使它们起作用吗？我们经常听到人们说，除非他们想要改变，否则人们不会改变。而我们也可以说，即使对于那些感觉在生活的各个领域都运作得非常出色的人，我并不认识这样的人。我认识一些非常成功的人，就像你也一样，但我不认识这样的人。在那个圈子里似乎只有那些明显的自恋者存在，对他们来说，他们认为自己做得很棒，但其他人却不能容忍他们。

By the way, narcissists, no one else can stand you. What do we say to those individuals? Because I think it's a big swath of humanity. And I think it accounts for a lot of suffering in the world, including their own suffering. Yeah. So I would make an appeal to common sense, right?

顺便说一句，自恋者，除了你们自己没有人能忍受你们。对于这些个体，我们要说什么呢？因为我认为这是人类中的一个很大群体。我认为这解释了世界上很多的痛苦，包括他们自己的痛苦。是的。所以我会向常识提出呼吁，对吧？

So imagine you take someone who doesn't know anything about health. They don't know how to exercise. They don't know how to eat well. They just don't know. And they're really, really unhealthy, right? They're overweight. They have low energy. They have sleep apnea. They don't need to have you. And why not just say to them, well, like, just go be different. Like, in fact, be different now. Why aren't you different right now? Right? Like, of course, we would never do that because it's absurd. And by the way, it also would be cruel, right?

所以想象一下，你碰到一个对健康一无所知的人。他们不知道如何锻炼身体，不知道如何饮食健康。他们就是一无所知。而且他们的健康状况非常差，对吧？他们超重，精力低落，患有睡眠呼吸暂停症。他们并不需要你的批评。为什么不直接告诉他们，嗯，快点变得不同呢？实际上，为什么你现在还不变得不同呢？对吧？当然，我们永远不会这样做，因为这太荒谬了。而且，顺便说一句，这样做也是残忍的，对吧？

So it's absurd and it's cruel. So we would never do that, right? Let's say now you, let's say we fast forward some period of months saves, make it up, right? And we see that person and wow, they are much healthier. They have much more energy. They've lost weight. They're physically fit. A lot will have gone on in between those two snapshots of that person. That person has to learn a lot, right? How does one take care of oneself, right? Then more specifically, how do I take care of myself, right? What healthy foods, you know, will I like? What healthy foods will I eat? How will I put that on the table? What kind of exercises can work for me? How will they work for me? How do I strengthen muscle? How do I strengthen the heart? How do I increase lung capacity, right?

所以这太荒谬也太残忍了。那么我们永远不会这么做，对吧？假设现在你，假设我们往前快进数月，假设这个人改变了，对吧？哇，他们的健康状况提升了很多。他们更有活力，减掉了体重，身体变得健壮。在这两个时间点之间一定发生了很多事情。这个人必须学很多东西，对吧？怎么照顾自己？更具体地说，我怎么照顾自己？我会喜欢哪些健康食物？我会吃哪些健康食物？如何能够在餐桌上实现？有什么样的锻炼适合我？它们又是如何适合我？如何增强肌肉？如何增强心脏功能？如何提高肺活量，对吧？

There's learning, there's diligence, you know, there's stick to itiveness, right? There's resilience. That's how the person gets there, right? It is no different. I mean, it's mental health, right? If we say, well, you feel different in to cross the board or you feel superior across the board or whatever it is, like life isn't going well and you don't have things you want and, you know, the self-talk is negative and we say, well, look, what, just be different right now, right?

有学习，有勤奋，你知道的，有坚持不懈，对吧？有韧性。这就是一个人成功的方式，对吧？其实没有什么不同。我的意思是，这是心理健康问题，对吧？如果我们说，你感觉在一切方面都不同或者觉得自己在所有方面都更优越，或者其他类似情况，就是生活不顺利，你没有自己想要的东西，你的自我对话是负面的，我们说，看，现在就改变一下，对吧？

I mean, it's remarkable that people will say that at times, not just in a way that's denigrating and awful for others, but to themselves too, right? I mean, I hear people say this most often to themselves, like, why am I not just different, right? I want to be different or what's wrong with me that I'm not? And I'm like, yeah, it's like everything else. Like, you have to apply understanding and work and effort.

我的意思是，人们会在某些时候说这种话，不仅仅对别人而言是贬低和可怕的，对自己也是如此，对吧？我是说，我经常听到人们对自己说这种话，比如，为什么我不能与众不同呢，对吧？我想变得不同，或者说我有什么问题让我不能与众不同呢？我就像是在说，是的，这和其他事情一样。你需要运用理解、工作和努力。

Like, the good news is you can get to whatever change you want. I mean, a person can get to whatever reasonable change that person wants. Like, you know, I'm 54 years old. I'm not going to climb Mount Everest. I'm not a mountain climber, right? But if I want to, like, I want to learn to climb some mountains, I want to get out there and do some things, I can go do that, right?

好消息是你可以实现你想要的任何改变。我的意思是，一个人可以实现他们想要的任何合理的改变。举个例子，我今年54岁了，我不会去攀登珠穆朗玛峰。我不是个登山者，对吧？但是如果我想要学习攀登一些山峰，我想要出去做一些事情，我可以去实现，对吧？

The same thing is true with our mental health goals, but not at the snap of a finger, not by magic, right? It's through applying the same science and common sense, combination of science and common sense that we apply to other things. That's why we go through this procedure of unconscious mind, conscious mind, the structure and function of the self because that's how it's done.

这个道理也适用于我们的心理目标，但并非一瞬间就能实现，也不是通过魔法对吧？要实现心理目标，我们需要运用同样的科学方法和常识，将科学和常识结合起来，就像我们对待其他事情一样。这就是为什么我们要经历潜意识和意识的过程，了解自我结构和功能，因为这就是完成心理目标的方法。

That's how the after snapshot looks different than the before from the mental health perspective as well. That's very helpful. And I think it's going to be very helpful to a lot of people in thinking about what to think about. What sorts of questions to address, maybe even whether or not to get therapy. And hopefully we'll remap their notions of therapy. I mean, of course, this critically relies on the therapist being good to excellent. And I think in the previous sit down we had in the episode on trauma, specifically, you mapped out a number of the features of quality therapy. So we can refer people to that if they're thinking about it's time stamped in that episode. What to look for in a therapist? How to assess whether or not it's going well or not, whether or not to move on or stay put with that therapist and so on.

这就是为什么从心理健康的角度来看，后期的快照与之前有所不同。这对于很多人来说非常有帮助，可以帮助他们思考应该思考什么，需要解决哪些问题，甚至是否需要接受治疗。希望我们能够重新定义治疗的概念。当然，这在很大程度上依赖于治疗师的水平。在之前的一次讨论中，我们详细介绍了优质治疗的一些特征。如果感兴趣的话，可以参考那一集，时间戳已经标注在那集中。如何选择治疗师？如何评估治疗的进行情况？是否应该转换治疗师或者继续和当前治疗师合作等等。

You've been telling us a lot about the structure of the self, unconscious mind, conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, self. We haven't talked so much about the function of self. I realize it's been woven in here or there. Yes. Could you tell us about the function of self? The functions of self, verb actions, I mean, are these things that we are all doing right now that reflect our character structure? Are these things that we can change more readily than trying to snap our fingers and say, okay, I'm now going to be a more altruistic person because I can decide that right now, but then ultimately I have to engage in some altruistic behaviors to lend support to that. Again, staying with the parallel that I can't just snap my fingers and say lower blood pressure. I have to do some meditative practice, some cardiovascular training and things of that sort. What is this function of self thing? What goes into the functions of self?

你一直告诉我们自我的结构、潜意识、意识、心理防御机制、人格结构和自我等许多内容，但是我们很少谈论自我的功能。我知道你在其中时不时地涉及到这个话题。是的。你能告诉我们关于自我功能的内容吗？自我功能，也就是动作的动词功能，是这些我们现在都在做的事情，反映了我们的人格结构吗？相比之下，这些功能是否更容易改变，而不是像咔嚓一声说，好的，我现在要成为一个更无私的人，因为我可以立刻决定，但最终我必须参与一些无私的行为来支持这个决定。再次强调，就像我不能只咔嚓一声说，血压降低一样。我必须进行一些冥想练习、心血管训练等。这个自我功能是什么？自我功能的构成要素是什么？

So, just stepping back to the framing, right? So there are these two pillars upon which we build our lives, the structure of self and the function of self. And we've been talking, as you said, more about the structure, which is more the nouns of it. Like there is an unconscious, what is in that unconscious, for example. There are defense mechanisms. How are we using them? Like it's not all nouns, but it's more what are those things? And then we start talking about how we put them into practice.

所以，回到前提，对吗？我们生活建立在两个支柱上，自身的结构和功能。正如你所说，我们更多地谈论结构，也就是更多地谈论名词性的东西。比如潜意识的存在，潜意识中包含了什么内容等。我们还讨论了防御机制，我们如何运用它们。不仅仅是名词，我们更关注的是这些东西是如何实践的。

The function of self is much more the verbs, right? So if the structure is more nouns, the function is more the verbs, right? The actual engagement, right? So that would start with an awareness of I. So a function of self has to start with an awareness. There is a person. There is a me that is separate from others. And I have responsibility for this I, right? Like it is me, no one else is guiding it, it's me. I know there's a me.

自我的功能更多是动词，对吗？所以如果结构更多是名词，那么功能就更多是动词，对吗？实际的参与，对吗？因此，一种自我的功能必须从意识开始。有一个人。有一个与他人分离的我。我对这个我有责任，对吗？就像是我，没有其他人指导，是我自己。我知道我存在。

Then on top of that, we start seeing defense mechanisms in action. Because we're thinking about function, right? We're aware that there's an I. But the first thing that starts happening to that I are unconscious things, right? So the defense mechanisms, because we're not choosing them, right? They start doing things automatically. So if, for example, I have a defense of avoidance, right? Then I'm not thinking, you know, if it's, I'd like to meet a new person, but I automatically am shying away, right? Then that's not, it's not good, right? It's a factor, right? But it's a factor I'm not aware of until I start this process of introspecting, right?

然后，除此之外，我们开始看到防御机制在起作用。因为我们在考虑功能，对吗？我们意识到存在一个"我"。但是，最先开始发生在这个"我"身上的是无意识的事情，对吗？所以，防御机制开始自动地采取行动，因为我们没有选择它们。举个例子，如果我有一个回避的防御机制，那么我不会去思考，你知道的，如果我想认识一个新人，但是我会自动地回避。那是不好的，对吗？这是一个因素，但是直到我开始反省这个过程，我才意识到这个因素。

So the defense mechanisms are then kind of determining the lay of the land, right? So in that example, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's sorry to interrupt. But in that example, the turning away you describe as reflexive. So you're talking about someone, perhaps we would like to have a romantic partner or meet somebody, have a companion, and they go to the grocery store and somebody says something as they're reaching for the milk, and you know, there's that moment of opportunity where they could say something back, but instead they just kind of go, thanks, and then they kind of way, and then the narrative in their head might be, gosh, that was silly, right? But they don't really think about the alternate possibility. There might be no narrative. They just, they head off to the produce section. And then they go home and, and sometimes they say, oh, anything happened? You mean you want the groceries? No, right? Because it's all unconscious. Right. Now again, can we explore that and change that? Yes. But it's important to understand that whatever that nest of defense mechanisms is like, that's what I've got right now, right? And I'm living through that right now, right? It's performing a function, right? Just because it's an unconscious function doesn't mean it's not a very, very important function.

所以防御机制实际上是在决定局势，对吧？那么在那个例子中，很抱歉打断一下，但是打断就是一种道歉。所以你是在讲一个人，也许我们想要有一个浪漫的伴侣或者认识某人，有一个伴侣，他们去杂货店的时候，有人在他们拿牛奶的时候说了些话，你知道，在那个机会的瞬间，他们可以回应一些话，但是他们只是说了声谢谢，然后离开了，然后他们脑中可能会有一种叙事，噢，那真是傻，对吧？但是他们并没有真正思考另一种可能性，可能根本没有叙事。他们只是去了蔬菜区，然后回到家，有时候他们说，发生了什么事吗？你是说你买好杂货了吗？没有吧？因为这一切都是无意识的。对吧。现在我们能够探索并改变这一点吗？能够。但是重要的是要理解，无论现在的防御机制是怎样的，那就是我现在具备的，对吧？而我正在经历这一切，对吧？它正在发挥作用，对吧？仅仅因为它是无意识的作用，并不意味着它不是非常非常重要的作用。

I can see in that example how it protects the conscious mind from risk, because there's always a possibility of rejection. There's a possibility of over-interpretation of what the other person is talking to them for, right? Like is the person interested in them or whether or not this is just, you know, friendly banter, or the sort that anyone would have next to anybody that is not special to them? So I can see how the unconscious turning away is protective against all the negative possibilities. And in some sense is pretty rational because the, the probability that that one interaction could ratchet up to a, a life of companionship and romance with somebody is exceedingly small, really. Although you could imagine a set of data points where you string together, you know, like five second clips, you know, all, like the time something like that has happened, right?

我可以从这个例子中看出，这种方式可以保护意识思维不受风险的影响，因为存在被拒绝的可能性。对方对他们说话的解读可能会过度，对方到底是对他们感兴趣还是只是友好的调侃，或者这仅仅是任何一个不特殊的人与任何人相处时的方式。所以我可以理解为什么无意识的回避对抗所有负面的可能性是一种保护性的反应。从某种意义上说，这种反应是相当理性的，因为与某人的一次互动能演化成长时间的伴侣关系和浪漫生活的概率是极小的，实际上。尽管你可以想象出一系列数据点，将一连串的五秒钟的片段串联起来，这是类似情况发生的时间。

So maybe this is a person that, you know, intermittently, like people are interested in them and saying, hey, you're saying hello or showing interest, you could string all those together and the person hasn't noticed one of them, right? And then could have a very negative see. Nobody, no one wants me, no one's interested in me or whatever the person is saying. But, but like it's different if you see from the outside, like it's objectively different, but that person doesn't know. And that's why after being an awareness, there is an eye.

也许这是一个人，你知道的，人们时不时地对他们感兴趣并表示问候或展示兴趣，你可以把所有这些联系在一起，然而这个人却没有注意到其中一种，对吧？然后就会形成一种非常消极的看法。没人，没人对我有兴趣，或者这个人所说的其他什么。但是，当你从外界看的时候是不一样的，客观上是不同的，但是这个人并不知道。这就是为什么在意识到之后，有了一个观察者的存在。

The next thing that I think of in the, in the function of self is, is the defense mechanisms in action. What are some other examples of defense mechanisms in action? Because I think there's immense interest in this. You know, the idea that we have unconscious processes in us that are reaching up out of the iceberg and preventing us from seeing our life and ourselves the way that it actually is occurring and perhaps preventing us from achieving these ideals of agency and gratitude, empowerment and humility. You know, I mean, these seem like very powerful and important forces. And, and I and I know many other people out there want to understand whether or not what we're doing and what we're feeling and experiencing, whether or not that is serving us well or not.

在自我功能中，我想到的下一件事是防御机制的运作。除了防御机制，还有哪些可以作为例子呢？我认为这个问题非常有趣。你知道，我们内部存在着无意识的过程，它们从冰山中伸出来，阻止我们看清生活和自我真正的发生方式，也许阻碍我们实现主体性、感恩、赋权和谦卑的理想。我认为这些力量非常强大且重要。我和很多其他人都想了解我们所做的事情、所感受到的事情是否对我们有益。

So I think the place to start is to say that there's something very, very complicated going on, right? The part of the iceberg underneath the surface, right? That biological supercomputer that's running at a million thoughts and a million actions and a million internal processes a second, right, is constantly shifting our defensive structure. So, so it's complicated and you can almost imagine that like one leaves and another comes in and they're shifting and there's a little bit of one and some of another. So it's a very complicated process, but we can look at it and understand.

所以我认为开始的地方是说，有一些非常非常复杂的事情正在发生对吧？就像冰山下面的部分一样，对吧？那个每秒运行百万个思想、百万个行动和百万个内部过程的生物超级计算机，不断地改变我们的防御结构。所以，所以这是一个复杂的过程，你可以想象，好比一个离开另一个进来，它们在变化，有一点点是一个，还有一些是另一个。所以这是一个非常复杂的过程，但我们可以观察并理解。

So, so an example of a defense mechanism that's very common and can cause us a lot of problems is projection, right? So I'll give two examples of projection. So, so one is the experience of sitting in a car, right, and being stuck in traffic, being a little bit late, right, and feeling beleaguered, right? I mean, this has happened to me more times than I can count, but at some point I started to do my own therapy looking at like, what's going on in me, right? When I'm doing this, right? So think about the feeling beleaguered, right? As if, what does that mean? Like, there's something called traffic that exists and has a mind and wants to thwart me, right? Is it individual cars? Is it the people in the cars, right? What's going on is I'm having a perception of hostility. I feel beleaguered, right? But it's anger and frustration inside of me, right? I'm the one feeling angry and frustrated. There's, there's, there's no one and nothing but me that's feeling anything about this, right? But I have this sense of the world around me being hostile because I'm projecting my anger outward, right?

所以，所以一个非常常见的并且会给我们带来很多问题的防御机制就是投射，对吗？所以我会给出两个关于投射的例子。一个例子是坐在车里，被困在交通堵塞中，稍微晚点了一点，感到疲惫不堪。我经历过无数次这种情况，但在某个时候，我开始自我疗愈，思考自己的内心发生了什么。试想一下那种感到疲惫不堪的感觉是什么意思？就好像有一种叫做交通的东西存在，并且有意阻挠我一样。是个别的车辆吗？是车里的人吗？我所经历的是一种敌意的感知。我感到疲惫不堪，但其中包含着我内心的愤怒和沮丧。我是唯一感到愤怒和沮丧的人，没有别人或别的事物会有关于这件事的情感，但我将我的愤怒投射到外部，因此感觉到周围的世界对我充满敌意。

Now, think this isn't good because instead of sitting in traffic and saying, look, maybe it totally makes sense that I'm stuck in traffic and that I'm not happy. Like, maybe I should leave a little bit earlier and I wouldn't be late or if it's, I'm going to work, should I live closer to work? That could make a whole set of decisions that I'm not making, right?

现在，认为这并不好，因为与其坐在交通堵塞中说：“也许被困在交通里并感到不快乐完全合理。”或许我应该提前一点出门，这样就不会迟到了；或者如果是上班，我是否应该住得离工作更近一些？这样可能会带来一系列我目前没有做出的决策，对吗？

Or maybe I'd know, I thought it was going to be a 15 minute drive and like, there was an accident, right? And okay, there are things that I can't control. I'm not supposed to control everything, right? If you think about what can I control, being aware of that and what can I not control, right, then it can make the situation much better so this doesn't happen with this frequency and it also takes away the anger and the frustration, right?

或许我会知道的，我以为只需要15分钟的车程，但是发生了一起事故，对吧？好吧，有些事情我无法控制。我并不应该控制一切，对吧？如果我们思考一下我能控制什么，有意识地了解那些我无法控制的事情，对吧，那么情况会好很多，这种情况也不会频繁发生，同时还能减少愤怒和挫败感，对吧？

So I think that's a good example because it happens a lot. It's very, very common. But projection then also happens with people, right? So let's say you and I work together and we're going to do something collaborative together and I'm just not having a good day and something negative happened before I came to work and, you know, I'm not at my best and I'm a little bit irritable and frustrated, right? This happens all the time where then the person sits down with someone and then I'm being irritable and frustrated, which doesn't feel good to you, right? And you may become irritable and frustrated, right? And then I say, oh, look, he's irritable and frustrated, right? But even if you don't, the fact that I feel that way, right, that projection often would lead me to think that it's you who's that way. Here I come wanting to do this job and you're not at your best. It's me who's not at my best, right? But we do this all the time and then we make incorrect, inaccurate attributions, right?

所以，我认为这是个好例子，因为这种情况经常发生。非常非常普遍。但是投射也会发生在人与人之间，对吧？比如说你和我一起工作，我们要合作做某件事，我今天心情不好，上班之前发生了一些不好的事情，你知道的，我不在最佳状态，有点烦躁和沮丧，对吧？这种情况经常发生，然后我坐下来与某个人交流的时候，我就会变得恼怒和沮丧，这对你来说不舒服，对吧？你可能也会变得恼怒和沮丧，对吧？然后我说：“哦，看，他也恼怒和沮丧”，对吧？但即使你没有，我那样感觉的事实，这种投射经常会让我觉得是你在那种状态。我来这里想要完成这项工作，而你却不处在最佳状态。不是我不处在最佳状态，对吧？然而我们经常这样做，然后做出错误、不准确的推断，对吧？

So projection is an example of a defense mechanism that can cause us a lot of trouble, right? A lot of trouble. Another can be displacement where if I'm feeling anger or frustration, say, in a certain realm, then the idea of feeling it at work and then kicking the dog, right? Like, it's not good that we do that. We're not acknowledging what's going on inside of us at work, what we could change, what we could make better, and the dog doesn't want to be kicked, right? And the dog is often, you know, also the family, right, and it could be physical or could be through words, right? But the idea that there's something negative being generated in us, but inside we're perceiving that it's coming from somewhere else, right?

投射是一种防御机制的例子，会给我们带来很多麻烦，对吧？很多麻烦。另一个例子是移情作用，如果我在某个领域感到愤怒或沮丧，那么可能就会把这种情绪带到工作中，然后对待狗不友好，对吧？不好的是我们这样做，我们没有意识到工作中我们内心发生的事情，我们能做出什么改变，怎样让它变得更好，而狗并不想被踢，不是吗？这个狗通常也代表家庭，可以是身体上的伤害也可以是言语上的伤害，对吧？但是这个想法是，在我们内心产生了一些负面情绪，但我们却感知为这些情绪来自其他地方，对吧？

I mean, the thought is all things to lead us astray, right, when they're negative defenses, right? There can be positive defenses, too, such as altruism, right? That someone could do something negative to me, right? And instead of me passing that along, I could decide, no, I'm going to do something nice for the next person, I have an opportunity to do something nice for it, right? Like, that's a defense, and sometimes we could think of it and decide that way, but there are people who react that way. Like, there's something negative that happens, and they respond with something that's different from that.

我的意思是，思考会让我们误入歧途，对吧，特别是当它们是消极的防御方式，对吧？但也可以有积极的防御方式，比如利他主义，对吧？有人可能对我做了一些负面的事情，对吧？但我可以选择不传递这种负面，我可以决定，不，我要对下一个人做一些好事，我有机会这样做，对吧？这就是一种防御方式，有时我们能用这种方式来思考和决策，但并不是每个人都会这样。就像有些人会在遇到负面事情时做出与之不同的反应。

So, defense mechanisms can work against us, they can work for us, they're complicated, they're combinations of them, but we can look inside and say, for example, if I'm using projection all the time, right, and I think everyone around me is kind of always angry and frustrated, right, then there's always bad traffic, right? But then as we start to talk about it more, it becomes apparent that there's a lot I'm angry about, right? But I'm not aware of it, then reflection or therapy, right? Or a good friend we're talking to can help us see, right, that, hey, this is going on inside of me, right? And that can really help us, same with use of humor.

因此，防御机制可以起到我们的反作用，也可以为我们服务，它们是复杂的，它们是它们的组合，但我们可以内观，例如，如果我一直在使用投射，我认为周围的每个人总是生气和沮丧，那么肯定是交通堵塞的错吧？但是随着我们对此更多地进行讨论，显然有很多事情让我生气，但我没有意识到，然后通过反思或疗法，或者与一个好朋友交谈，可以帮助我们看到，嘿，这是我内心正在经历的情况，这对我们来说真的很有帮助，幽默的使用也是如此。

Like, if I'm using humor and I'm kind of decompressing uncomfortable situations or things that make me feel uncomfortable, maybe that grease is the wheels of social progress, but maybe over time I come to use humor in a way that's self-denigrating, right? Well, that's not so good anymore, but I may not be aware of the shift, just because I can maybe be funny in certain situations that I'm now not using that for myself anymore, I'm using it against myself. And by talking to people, by reflection, like we can be aware of the defensive structure that's going on inside of us, and then there's not an automaticity to it.

就像，如果我使用幽默来缓解让我感到不舒服的局面或让我感到不舒服的事情，也许这能促进社会进步，但也许随着时间推移，我开始以自嘲的方式使用幽默，对吗？那样就不那么好了，但也许我没有意识到这种变化，只是因为在某些情况下我可能很有趣，但现在我已经不再为了自我而这么做，而是在反对自己。通过与他人交流，通过反思，我们可以意识到我们内心的防御结构，并且对此并不自动。

If you point out that I'm using projection a lot, I can start to be aware of that. Just like if someone, let's say you were with me at the grocery store, right, and someone says something nice and I shy away and you say, hey, you know, we're not even aware of someone said hello to you. And then I say, I want to be more aware of that. I don't want that thing to happen unconsciously. So maybe now I think, okay, anytime someone, I don't know, says something, I'm going to just stop and think, like, what's going on here, right? Is that person being friendly to me? Are they just, you know, is just a person exchanging money to cash raise? So like, what's going on? So we take what's unconscious and we make it conscious so that we can change it. Sounds to me like exploring and thinking about our reflexes is what's really key here.

如果你指出我经常使用投射，我可以开始意识到这一点。就像如果有人，比如你在我和你一起去杂货店的时候，有人说了些好话，我会害羞地躲开，然后你会说，嘿，你知道吗，你甚至没有意识到有人对你打招呼。然后我会说，我想更加意识到这一点。我不想让这种事情在无意识中发生。所以现在我可能会想，好吧，每当有人说些什么的时候，我要停下来思考一下，发生了什么，对吧？那个人对我友好吗？还是只是一个人在交换钱来募款？所以，发生了什么？所以我们把无意识变成有意识，这样我们才能改变它。听起来对我来说，探索和思考我们的反应是关键。

The example of displacement that you gave, you know, kicking the dog, I couldn't help but smile, not because I think it's a good thing to do. I never once kicked my dog, by the way, folks, terrible thing to do. Also, he was the size of a boulder. It would have injured me more than it would have injured him, but I never would do such a thing. However, in academia, there's this phenomenon that's very common that I refer to as trickle-down anxiety, where the person running the laboratory is inevitably under a tremendous amount of stress, grants and papers, et cetera. And graduate students and postdocs will immediately be familiar with what I'm describing, but for those of you that haven't gone to graduate school, this will be a little bit foreign, but you'll think of other examples where when the labhead is under stress, it's incredibly common for labheads to walk through the laboratory and start asking about experiments and telling people to do additional experiments and basically just assigning busy work to people or pressuring what simply cannot be moved along any faster.

你提到的例子就是替罪行为，你知道，踢狗。我忍不住微笑了，并不是因为我认为这是一件好事。顺便说一下，我从未踢过我的狗，伙计们，那是一件可怕的事情。而且，他体型巨大，比我弄伤的可能性更大，但我绝不会这么做。然而，在学术界，有一个很常见的现象，我把它称之为"累加性焦虑"，就是实验室的负责人必然承受巨大的压力，包括经费和论文等等。研究生和博士后肯定会对我所描述的情况非常熟悉，但对于那些没有读过研究生的人来说，这可能有点陌生，但你可能会想到其他类似的例子，比如当实验室负责人承受压力时，他们经常会走进实验室，询问实验情况，要求人们做额外的实验，基本上只是为人们分派繁忙的工作，或者对一些事情施加压力，这些事情根本无法加快进展。

And when I was a graduate student, I worked for somebody who was the exact opposite of this phenotype. When I was a postdoc, frankly, I worked with someone who was a little bit of that phenotype, although I still liked working for him very much, but I used to have a response that, at least for me, was adaptive, which was, I would always say, I'm working as fast as I carefully can because no scientist ever wants somebody to cut corners, no good scientist anyway. But trickle-down anxiety is common in every occupation, I think. We see this sort of displacement all the time where someone's anxious, and so they go start creating anxiety for other people. I mean, you could just, as you're describing, I was just seeing how pathologic that is for everybody involved. So the academic, the trickle-down anxiety that you were just talking about is it's a related, but it's a different defense mechanism. It's projective identification, which is causing others to feel the way that you feel in order to get your needs met. Is this a form of projection? And actually, perhaps you could clarify the definition of projection versus displacement versus projective identification.

当我是研究生时，我曾为一个与这种表型完全相反的人工作。当我成为博士后，坦白说，我与一个略微具备这种表型的人合作，尽管我非常喜欢为他工作，但我过去曾有一种对我而言是适应性的反应，那就是我总是会说，“我正在尽可能仔细地工作，因为没有一个科学家愿意取巧，至少没有一个优秀的科学家会这样。”然而，我认为在每个职业中都存在“滴下来的焦虑”。我们经常看到这种情况，某人感到焦虑，所以他们开始制造焦虑给其他人。如你所描述的，我只能看到这对每个人来说都是病态的。所以你刚才提到的学术上的滴下来的焦虑，与之相关但又不同的防御机制是投射性认同，即让他人感受到你的感受以满足自己的需求。这是一种投射的形式吗？实际上，也许你可以澄清一下投射、替代以及投射性认同的定义。

So projection is when you don't own it. So it's not me who's mad, it's you. So I don't own that I'm mad at all. I just think that it's you, even though I'm the one who's mad. Displacement is what comes out of us or what our attribution can shift. It's not this person who's making me angry, it's that person, because that's a safer person to be angry at. Or if I'm then going to take out my anger, instead of metaphorically kicking a person who might respond to me in a way I don't want, maybe I kick the dog that's helpless to respond back. So that's displacement. Projective identification, there's an expression of an emotional state inside of a person that then becomes contagious to other people. Even though the person isn't trying to do that. The person says, I'm going to make you anxious, that's not a defense mechanism anymore.

投射是指当你不拥有某事时。所以不是我生气，是你。所以我根本不承认我生气。我只是认为是你让我生气，尽管我自己也生气了。位移是我们所表现出来或者归因于他人的情绪转移。不是某个人让我生气，而是那个人，因为对他发泄愤怒更安全。或者如果我要发泄我的愤怒，而不是对一个可能以我不想要的方式回应我的人进行象征性的攻击，也许我会踢那只无法反击的狗。这就是位移。投射性认同是指一个人内心情绪的表达会传染给其他人，尽管此人并非有意为之。这个人可能会说：“我要让你焦虑”，这不再是一种防御机制了。

So here's an example I think. This is the best example of projective identification. So for a little bit of time at work, I would occasionally lose my keys. So now I'm trying to go and I can't find my keys. So I say, oh, I don't know where my keys are. I start expressing something. And I'm anxious and I'm tense. And I'm like, now people around me hear that. And what do they start feeling? They start feeling anxious and tense the way that I do. And now they want to find my keys. They want to help me. So that I stop spreading anxiety and tension into the whole environment around me.

这是我认为的一个例子，这是最好的投射性认同的例子。在工作的一段时间里，我经常丢失我的钥匙。所以现在我想出去，但我找不到我的钥匙。于是我说，哦，我不知道我的钥匙在哪里。我开始表达一些东西。我感到焦虑和紧张。然后周围的人听到了。他们开始感到和我一样的焦虑和紧张。现在他们想要找到我的钥匙。他们想要帮助我，这样我才能停止向我周围的环境传播焦虑和紧张情绪。

So then they help me find my keys. I say, thank you, my own emotional state comes down. And upon reflection, I think, look, I don't want to do that. I'm getting my needs met by making other people feel in a way that's not a good or comfortable way to feel. So here's a way around that. Put my keys in the same place every day. So then I can avoid that because it doesn't feel good to me. Then if I get out to my car, I find I'm breathing a little heavy. It doesn't feel good because I was just agitated. And I did that to other people too. So it's an example of how projective identification works. And it's kind of a simple example, but it shows it's happening all the time. All these things are happening all the time. But we can become aware of it. Then I don't lose my keys. I don't have to feel bad about it. I don't have to activate myself for no reason. And I don't have to activate other people for no reason. So it's sort of thinking and reflecting, like change that thing for the better. And it can do it with much bigger things too.

然后他们帮我找到了我的钥匙。我说：“谢谢你们”，我的情绪很快平静下来。经过思考，我想，看，我不想这么做。我通过让别人感觉不好或不舒服来满足我的需求。所以我找到了一个解决办法。每天都把我的钥匙放在同一个地方。这样我就可以避免那种不舒服的感觉。然后，如果我走到我的车边，发现自己有点喘不过气来。这种感觉不好，因为我刚刚处于激动状态。而我也把这种感觉带给了别人。这就是投射性认同的例子。虽然它是一个简单的例子，但它表明这种情况一直在发生。所有这些事情都在一直发生。但我们可以意识到它。这样我就不会丢失我的钥匙。我不必因此感到不好。我不必无缘无故地激活自己。也不必无缘无故地激活别人。所以这就是思考和反省，将那件事情变得更好。而且它也可以应用于更重大的事情上。

Thank you for those clarifications. I'd like to touch on humor for a moment. Obviously, humor is a wonderful thing or can be a wonderful thing. I've also seen a lot of examples of where very smart and or accomplished people, because those are not always the same thing. Use sarcasm as a form of humor. And it can be very funny. But I have to imagine, based on everything I'm hearing from you today, that there's a form of sarcasm, which is an unhealthy defense. I'm thinking of the person that no matter what someone else says, that's positive or no matter what someone does that could be viewed as positive, they find some way to diminish it by like through sarcastic humor. I see this a lot. And I think closely nested with sarcasm is cynicism.

谢谢你对那些解释。我想谈谈幽默一会儿。显然，幽默是一件美妙的事情，或者可以成为一件美妙的事情。我也看到很多例子，很聪明或者成功的人，因为这两者并不总是一样。使用讽刺作为一种幽默手法。它可以非常有趣。但我想象，根据我今天从你这里听到的一切，有一种讽刺是一种不健康的防御方式。我指的是那种无论别人说什么积极的事情，或者无论别人做什么可以被视为积极的事情，他们总能找到一些方式通过讽刺来贬低它。我经常见到这种情况。我认为讽刺与愤世嫉俗紧密相连。

In fact, I have a family member. I won't name who they are to protect the not so innocent who used to be very cynical. And I want to ask, you know, what is the thing about cynicism? And they said, well, I have had a particular genre of schooling growing up, a formal schooling where if anyone behaved too happy, expressed too much happiness rather, too much delight, they were viewed as stupid. Like as if to be happy is to to be unaware of the sophistication and the importance of things in life. Right? And I hope that this is unrelatable to most people listening. But I do think that sarcasm is a double edge blade in this sense. And that cynicism is perhaps a double edge blade as well, but that it might even be worse than sarcasm, it's a way of really reflecting back what's by definition, what's not good about life, what's not good about what's happening.

实际上，我有一个家庭成员。为了保护那些曾经非常愤世嫉俗的无辜者，我不会透露他们的名字。我想问一下，你知道愤世嫉俗是怎么回事吗？他们说，嗯，我在成长过程中接受过一种特别类型的教育，一种正式的教育，在这种教育中，如果有人表现得过于快乐，过于开心，他们会被视为愚蠢。就好像快乐意味着对生活中的复杂性和重要性没有意识一样。对吧？我希望这对大多数人来说都是难以理解的。但我认为讽刺从某种意义上说是一把双刃剑。而愤世嫉俗也许更加厉害，它真正地反映了生活中不好的方面，不好的事情。

And it does seem protective, right? It protects one from disappointment. If you're already disappointed, how could you be further disappointed? It also seems to me like a bit of a power move. It's like, you're going to be happy? Well, I'm going to take that away from everybody, like something that's like for myself. Is any of this actually hold in the inside of the clinical literature? Because again, I enjoy a good sarcastic joke. In fact, there's a collaboration around a sarcastic joke. It can be truly funny to everybody. But sarcasm and cynicism, I feel like are often used to cut down what would otherwise be benevolence or bonding experiences.

而且这似乎是一种保护措施，对吗？它保护我们免受失望的伤害。如果你已经感到失望了，你还能更失望吗？对我来说，这也有点像一种权力行动。就像是说：“你要快乐？那么，我要把这种快乐从每个人身上剥夺，像是属于我自己一样。”在临床文献中是否有任何一点与此相关的内容？因为我确实喜欢一个好的讽刺笑话。实际上，有关讽刺笑话的合作可能对每个人都非常有趣。但是我觉得，讽刺和愤世嫉俗经常被用来削弱原本可能是善意或共享体验的事物。

Absolutely. I grew up in central New Jersey. Humor is a weapon, right? Or it certainly can be, right? And people can be very aggressive through humor. So, so acting out, which is just letting our aggression flow, right? That's a defense, right?

当然可以。我在新泽西州中部长大。幽默是一种武器，对吧？或者至少可以成为一种武器，对吧？而人们可以通过幽默表现得非常具有攻击性。所以，行为举动，只是让我们的攻击性流露出来，对吧？那是一种防御机制，对吧？

So just being aggressive and pushing someone back, right? So however that means, like, if I don't feel good about myself, I want you to feel not so good about yourself, right? Is where we start getting into envy, right? And humor can be used that way. So, so that that sort of biting sarcastic humor is a form of acting out. It's a form of aggression, right? It's not humor as a healthy defense, right? We can call it the same thing, but we could also call it different things. It's just a nuance of our language, right?

所以只是变得侵略性地推开别人，对吗？不管怎样，如果我对自己不感到好，我希望你也不感到好，对吗？这就是我们开始产生嫉妒的地方，对吗？幽默可以这样使用。所以，这种带有刻薄讽刺的幽默是一种行为方式。这是一种侵略，对吗？它不是一种健康的防御方式，对吗？我们可以称之为同一件事，但也可以称之为不同的事物。这只是我们语言的微妙差别，对吗？

If, if humor can be a defense, like I trip and fall, I make a little joke. People are laughing at, with the me, instead of at me, right? Hey, humor is a good defense. I made myself feel better, made things flow, flow more easily. But if I'm using sarcastic humor to assail someone, right, then that's not, it's not that thing anymore, right?

如果幽默可以成为一种防御机制的话，当我摔倒了，我会开个小玩笑。人们会笑的时候，是和我一起笑，而不是笑我，对吗？嘿，幽默是一种很好的防御机制。我可以让自己感觉更好，让事情更加顺利。但是如果我使用讽刺的幽默攻击别人，那么它就不再是那个东西了，对吗？

And, you know, now it's a manifestation of aggression, right? And the idea that cynicism, you know, is, is more than was talking about a worldview, right? Like sarcasm is something that can be done now. Like, we can make a sarcastic joke funnier or not, then it's over, right? But cynicism is, is a way of coming at the world. There's a different kind of defense, right?

而且，你知道，现在它是一种攻击的表现，对吧？而且，你知道，玩世不恭不仅仅是一种世界观，对吧？比如讽刺是可以做的，我们可以让一个讽刺的笑话更有趣，或者不让它有趣，然后结束，对吧？但是玩世不恭是一种对待世界的方式。这是一种不同的防御机制，对吧？

The idea that, hey, it's like the Fox and the sour grapes. Like, I don't, I don't think there's anything good to be had anyway, right? So you can't take anything away from me. Can't make me feel worse, right? I already feel very, very bad about the world and about everybody in it. And I'm protecting myself that way. Like, that's then an unhealthy defense because what does that lead to? At least isolation, at least to mistrust. You know, we know that people are happy. If they lived through altruism and gratitude and they're well connected with others.

这个想法就像是《狐狸与酸葡萄》的故事。我觉得无论如何都不可能有什么好事，对吧？所以你不能从我这里拿走任何东西。不能让我感觉更糟，对吧？我已经对这个世界和其中的每个人都感到非常非常糟糕。我通过这种方式保护自己。然而，这种不健康的防御会导致什么呢？至少是孤立，至少是不信任。我们知道，人们通过利他主义和感恩的生活方式以及与他人保持良好的联系是快乐的。

So, so the cynical point of view, which again, to some degree, being in the world builds some cynicism in us, right? Like that, that's okay. That's part of, that's just a part of awareness in some sense. But I think what you're talking about is a very pervasive cynicism that then is an unhealthy defense that is very harmful to others. The idea that I feel lousy about everything. And if you don't, I'm going to try and bring you down, right? Like too much happiness. We'll label that as something, right? We can label it as stupid, right? So now it's like, it's not okay to be happier than some sort of cynical baseline, right? And again, there's nothing about altruism and gratitude. Like, that's not happy, right? I mean, who's happy in that situation? The people who are overly cynical are not happy. And the people around them are not happy. Nobody's happy.

所以，有些人有一种愤世嫉俗的观点，从某种程度上说，生活在这个世界上会让我们变得愤世嫉俗，对吗？就像这样，这种感觉没问题。从某种意义上来说，这只是一种觉悟的一部分。但我认为你谈论的是一种普遍存在的愤世嫉俗，这种不健康的防御对他人非常有害。这种观念是我对一切都感到糟糕，如果你不糟糕，我会试图拉低你的情绪，对吗？太多的快乐会被贴上某种标签，对吗？我们可以把它标签为愚蠢，对吗？所以现在，超过某种愤世嫉俗的基准线的快乐是不被允许的，对吗？而且，这与利他和感恩无关。这并不代表快乐，对吗？在这种情况下，谁会快乐呢？过度愤世嫉俗的人不快乐，他们周围的人也不快乐。没有人快乐。

Thanks for the clarification on New Jersey. A good portion of my biological family is from New Jersey. Come out well-armed. I adore them, but it's true. There was once a moment at a family gathering where somebody said, let's hug or something. And the reaction was like, oh, we're going to hug now. It was entirely sarcastic and cynical. And the hug that resulted from that was this like little like distant hat kind of thing. It was, now I'm laughing about it. It's funny. And they're very loving people, but you're right. It's a different style of humor and discourse.

谢谢对新泽西的澄清。我的大部分亲生家人来自新泽西。要带着武器前去。我非常喜欢他们，但这是真的。有一次在家庭聚会上，有人说，让我们拥抱或者什么的。然后反应就是，哦，我们现在要拥抱了。这完全是一种讽刺和愤世嫉俗的反应。而因此而产生的拥抱就像是一个遥远的礼帽。现在我在笑，这很有趣。他们是非常有爱心的人，但是你说得对。这是一种不同的幽默和言论风格。

So you've been talking about these two pillars of the self and who we are and how things play out in the world for us as the structure of self and the function of self. And in terms of the function of self, you described self-awareness, this notion or this realization that there is an eye. There's a me. And then we've been talking about defense mechanisms in action, how these play out in the real world, both positive and negative.

所以你一直在谈论自我的这两个支柱，以及我们是谁以及自己在世界中如何运作的结构和功能。而在自我的功能方面，你描述了自我意识，这种认识到有一个自我的感知或体认。然后我们一直在讨论防御机制的作用，无论是积极还是消极，在现实世界中如何发挥作用。

It seems to me that a lot of what is happening here in terms of understanding the function of self has to do with what we pay attention to and where we place our efforts or choose to not place our attention and not place our efforts. Do I have that right?

在我看来，就自我的理解功能而言，很大程度上取决于我们关注的事物以及我们将精力放在哪里，或选择不去关注、不付出努力的事物。我理解的对吗？

Salience is a huge concept in human existence. I mean, there are thousands upon thousands of things that you or I could be paying attention to right now. But we're not paying attention to anything except what we're doing right here. So we are gating out so many other thoughts, ideas, narratives inside. Now, if something were to shift very quickly, if we heard a loud noise, right, our attention would shift. Right?

突显是人类存在中的一个巨大概念。我是说，此刻你我可能会关注成千上万件事情。但我们只关注眼前正在做的事情。这样我们就屏蔽了许多其他的想法、观点和故事。然而，如果有什么东西突然发生变化，比如我们听到了一声巨响，我们的注意力就会转移。对吧？

So our attention is focused. We're salient to one another because this is what we've chosen. We're focusing our minds and we are also somewhere inside of us aware that we could shift away from it if something more important, like something dangerous, like where to happen. So it lets us be here and be salient to one another and have this conversation. Right?

因此，我们的注意力聚焦在一起。我们对彼此格外敏感，因为这是我们选择的方式。我们将心思集中在这里，同时也意识到，如果发生更重要、更危险的事情，我们可能会改变注意力的方向。但正因为如此，我们能够在此刻互相关注，进行这次对话。是这样的吧？

But in the course of life, what's salient to us is so complicated and determined by so many factors that it's absolutely worth a lot of attention to. So one example is so many people have a negative internal dialogue that's running in them over and over again, or they're running through images, events. They may be traumatic events or things that they're not happy with, images of themselves in negative ways. That these internal narratives or internal images can become so strong that there's no room for anything else.

但在生活的过程中，对我们来说最重要的事情太复杂了，受到许多因素的影响，因此非常值得我们关注。举一个例子，很多人内心存在反复出现的负面对话，或者他们在脑海中反复回想着一些事件、形象。这些事件可能是创伤性的，或者是他们对自己不满意的事情，以负面的方式看待自己的形象。这些内心的叙述或形象可以变得如此强大，以至于没有其他事情留下空间。

So an example would be a person who really, really loved music and could have, you know, just in addition to enjoying music, like had like good thoughts while listening to music. Like, you know what? I could go do this, right? And had a history of like that really working out well, like following his interests and really creating sort of goodness in his life. Who now was going for long drive, like longer than would be needed to go somewhere or get something, like why the extra time in the car. And I had had a presumption, okay, the person's listening to music and thinking, but it doesn't quite add up.

所以举个例子，有一个非常非常热爱音乐的人，他不仅仅是享受音乐，还能够在听音乐的同时脑中浮现出许多美好的想法。你知道吗？他可能会想，我可以去做这件事，对吗？而且他曾经有过这样的经历，就是追随自己的兴趣，真正创造出生活中的美好。但现在他却选择长时间的驾车，比实际需要去某个地方或买某个东西的时间更长，为什么要在车上多花这么多时间呢？我本来以为他会只是在听音乐和思考，但事情并不是那么简单。

And then I learned that the person is not listening to music, right? That they're using that time so that the internal narrative, right, which was a very, very negative, repeated internal negative. You're not going to get anywhere. You're not going to make anything of yourself. Right? It could be there in his mind. Right? So it was a form of self-punishment. Right? It was a form of taking the anger and frustration inside and enacting it towards himself.

然后我了解到这个人并不是在听音乐，对吧？他们利用这段时间，来让内心的叙述出现，对吧，这是一个非常非常消极、反复的内心负面叙述。你不会有任何进展。你不会有所成就，对吧？这可能存在于他的脑海中，对吧？所以这是一种自我惩罚的方式。对吧？这是一种将内心的愤怒和沮丧转化为对自身的行动。

And that was so salient that this person could not see his way to any goodness. Like nothing could change. Nothing could get any better. Like, felt very sure and very resolved about that. And the answer was, yeah, that's right. Right? Nothing can get any better with this constant mantra running over and over again, but things can get better, right? If that becomes less salient over time and your own thoughts and reflections become more salient.

而这就是如此重要，以至于这个人无法看到任何美好的出路。就好像什么都无法改变一样。什么都无法变得更好。就像，对此非常肯定和坚决。答案是，是的，没错。对吗？如果这个不断重复的口头禅变得不那么突出，而你自己的思考和反思变得更加突出，事情是可以变得更好的，对吗？

So at the other end of that shift, you know, that narrative that was still there, but it was weakened, right? Because it takes time to really change things. So it was very much weakened. The person was listening to music again. Those thoughts had kind of come back to the surface and they were being sort of jumbled, you know, in ways that brought new and interesting thoughts coming from them. And the person was in an entirely different place and like completely changed their life. Right? I mean, this is true. Right? It's a dramatic example, but dramatic examples inform us, right? Where the salience shifted and then the life shifted after that.

所以在那个变化的过程的另一端，你知道，那个叙述还在那里，但已经变得弱化了，对吧？因为真正改变事物是需要时间的。所以它已经大大削弱了。那个人又开始听音乐了。那些想法又浮出了表面，它们被弄得有些混乱，带来了新奇有趣的想法。那个人处于一个完全不同的位置，并彻底改变了他们的生活。对吧？我是说，这是真的。对吧？这是一个戏剧性的例子，但戏剧性的例子能给我们启发，对吧？重点改变了，然后生活也发生了变化。

What you're describing in terms of this specific example doesn't resonate with me in terms of my own experience. Although, as you point out, it's very striking. It's very dramatic. But it resonates with me from a different perspective. I'm not seeking a free clinical session here, but to give meat to the example I'm about to ask you for insight on.

根据你所描述的这个具体例子，在我的个人经验中并不能引起共鸣。尽管，正如你所指出的，它非常引人注目，非常戏剧化。但从一个不同的角度来看，它与我共鸣。我并不是在这里寻求一次免费的临床咨询，而是为了提供一个例子，并请你对此提供一些见解。

You know, I've never allowed myself to stay in a bad professional situation for very long. You know, when things didn't feel right or when I sensed someone I was working with or for wasn't the right situation, I got out. But despite, if I were to really think about it, that could have been pretty severe long term consequences, fortunately it all worked out.

你知道的，我从来没有让自己在糟糕的职业环境中停留太久。当事情感觉不对或者当我感觉与我共事或为我工作的人不是正确的情况时，我会离开。不过如果我真的仔细考虑一下，那可能会带来相当严重的长期后果，幸运的是，一切都解决了。

In fact, so much so that I would say, you know, I pay attention to whether or not people I work with and for are of the sort that I want to be working with. And if I sense a particular type of danger, I'll look at that and I'm 100% so far, knock on wood, but 100% so far on recognizing later that it was a great decision to move on.

事实上，我会说，我非常关注与我一起工作的人是否是我愿意一起合作的人。如果我察觉到某种危险信号，我会留意并且迄今为止，百分之百地，敲敲木头，每一次都后悔离开的决定。

And on the flip side of it, I've made, I believe, excellent decisions in terms of who to work with, in terms of my podcasting, in terms of my academic career, et cetera. But I've had to move away from people that just weren't right for me. I don't think they were truly bad actors, but thank goodness I moved away. And thank goodness I found these other wonderful people to work with.

并且在另一方面，我相信我在选择合作对象、做播客、学术生涯等方面都做出了出色的决策。但是我不得不远离那些与我不合适的人。我不认为他们是真正的坏人，但还是庆幸我离开了。幸好我找到了其他出色的合作伙伴。

However, there are circumstances that have been repetitive in my life where I've just be honest, repeatedly made not good decisions about who to be involved with over fairly long periods of time. And there can even be an awareness, or I should say there has been an awareness like this isn't a good situation. And yet I'm persisting in seeking out this and similar types of situations.

然而，在我的生活中，有些情况反复出现，我只是坦诚地说，反复地做出了与某些人相处的决定，而这些决定并不明智，时间也相当长。甚至还可能有一种意识，或者更确切地说，曾经有这样一种意识，认识到这并不是一个好的情况。然而，我仍然坚持寻求这种以及类似的情况。

So I consider myself at least partially rational human being with some degree of introspection. You know, when I look at this and I think, okay, this is a choice to focus on placing myself in, I have to assume it, placing myself in the situations that are challenging for me in a way that I know is preventing me from living in certain ways that I want and from being, quote unquote, happy in certain ways that I want. When you hear a scenario like that, like I can do it over here, but I can't seem to do it over here. In fact, I see myself doing it the wrong way here, right?

所以我认为自己至少是部分理性的人，有一定程度的内省能力。你知道，当我看到这个问题时，我会想，好吧，这是一个选择，我必须把自己放在这样一些对我具有挑战性的情境中，我知道这样做会阻止我以某种方式生活，也会阻止我以某种方式感到"幸福"。当你听到这样的情况时，好像我可以在这里做到，但在这里却做不到时，事实上，我看到我在这里以错误的方式行事，对吗？

A little bit different than the example you gave a moment ago because the guy was driving to work, not listening to music, but wasn't putting two and two together about what was going on. But when somebody can see what's going on, I think this might even be called the repetition compulsion or sometimes. What is that about? Are people trying to work out something specific, or are they deliberately creating some friction to accomplish something else? I mean, I realize this could be infinitely complex. And again, I'm not trying to extract the clinical insight for my own sake. I started on the clock on that. Thank you.

刚才你举的例子与这个有点不同，因为那个人是开车去上班，而不是在听音乐，但他没有将所发生的事情联系起来。但当有人能够看清事情的本质时，我认为这甚至可以称为“重复冲动”，有时候也会这样。这是怎么回事呢？是人们试图解决某个具体问题，还是有意制造一些摩擦来达到其他目的？我的意思是，我明白这可能无限复杂。再次强调，我不是为了自己的利益而提取临床见解。我对此感到着急。谢谢你。

But I think a lot of people do this. They do what they know they shouldn't be doing. They know they shouldn't be doing it. DAW, I just said that two ways. But they do it like it must serve them in some way. You think about when you get a dog and you talk to a dog trainer, they say, you know, a dog's do what works. Right? They get a reward for doing something and continue doing it. You apply that to the same sort of thing I'm describing for myself and that I've observed in other people. And you must say, it must work for them. You hear this in kind of pop psychology. It must work for them. Like, it must be solving something. Why the hell do I do this? Why do people do this? Is it real pathology or is it a roundabout way to get to something else that's actually pretty adaptive? Instead of defining it as pathology, I would not define it as pathology. I would define it as humanness. If humanness is not in and of itself pathological, then all you're doing there is describing something that is common widespread across human beings.

但是我认为很多人都会这样做。他们会去做他们知道不应该做的事情。他们知道自己不应该这么做。我刚刚用两种方式表达了这个观点。但是他们似乎会这样做，好像这样做对他们有所帮助。你想一想当你养一只狗并和训狗师交流时，他们会说，你知道吗，狗会做得顺利的。对吧？他们会因为做某事而得到奖励，于是就继续这样做。你可以将这一点应用到我形容的同样事情上，也是我在其他人身上观察到的。你必须承认，这对他们来说一定起到了作用。在流行心理学中你会听到这样的说法：这一定对他们起到了作用。就像，这一定解决了某些问题。我为什么会这么做呢？为什么人们会这么做呢？这是真正的病理行为，还是一种间接达到其他实际上相当适应性的方式？与其将其定义为病理，我不会把它定义为病理。我将其定义为人性。如果人性本身并不是病理性的，那么你所做的只是描述一种在人类中普遍存在的事情。

Now, it doesn't mean we can't understand it and make it healthier. I work in a discipline that wants to put a number on everything, label it as something, and then do something about it that's more often than not ineffective. Because we're not looking at things in a top-down way of what is human experience, what are the natural aspects of human experience that are less than ideal, that we can then understand and make better. If we come at it that way, then we see, ah, this is a great example because here's where structure meets function. So on the structure side, we said, OK, there's defense mechanisms. And we imagine the branches that are coming up from the unconscious mind. And here it meets function, right? Defense mechanisms in action on the function side, then determining salience.

现在，这并不意味着我们不能理解它并使其更加健康。我从事的学科希望对每件事情都有一个数字标签，并且然后对其采取行动，但往往效果不佳。因为我们并没有从自上而下地看人类体验是什么，人类体验中哪些自然方面不理想，我们可以理解并改善。如果我们用这种方式来看待问题，那么我们会发现，这是一个很好的例子，因为在这里结构与功能相遇。所以在结构方面，我们说，好的，有防御机制。我们想象从潜意识中出现的分支。而在这里，它与功能相遇，对吧？防御机制在功能方面发挥作用，然后决定显著性。

So what I would imagine in your example, my image is that your defensive structure when you're doing the thing that's effective, right, the professional decisions, right? It looks elegant, right? There's harmony to where those branches are. The consciousness is sitting in between it. You can see the elegance to it, right? That I can just imagine shifting, right, when you're not doing the thing effectively, right? Because now you're using an entirely different defensive structure, which is going to function differently and create different salience. And I imagine that it's convoluted and, you know, that it's sort of piecemeal, that it's not something elegant, right?

在你的例子中，我会想象，在你做有效的事情时，你的防御结构看起来很精致，对吧，就是专业的决策对吧？它看起来很协调，这些分支之间有一种和谐感。意识就坐落在其中。你可以看到它的优雅，对吧？我可以想象，当你没有有效地做事情时，它会发生转变，对吧？因为现在你在使用完全不同的防御结构，它将产生不同的显著性。我想象它会很复杂，你知道，有点零散，不是很优雅的东西，对吧？

So you say, OK, what does that actually mean? Let's translate it into what are the actual defenses. So let's think about what you're not doing when you're making good decisions in the professional realm, right? You are not using denial or avoidance or rationalization or projection or projective identification or acting out, right? There are all these things that you are not doing that are the sort of unhealthy defenses beckoning to us. Like, oh, wouldn't it be easier to kick the can down the road, right? You know, wouldn't it be easier to just, no, no, everything's OK. Everything's going to work out. OK, wouldn't it be easier instead of being angry at one person who is really intrinsic to the environment if you, you know, it's actually somebody else, you know, or you're displacing and projecting? That's how people, that's what we get ourselves into trouble, right?

你说，好的，那实际上意味着什么呢？我们将其翻译为实际的防御方式。所以让我们思考一下在专业领域中做出良好决策时你不会做什么，对吧？你不会使用否认、回避、合理化、投射、投射性认同或行动表现，对吧？有许多你不会做的事情，它们是一种不健康的防御机制在引诱我们。比如说，哦，把问题拖到以后解决会不会更容易呢？你知道，只要说，不，没问题，一切都会好的。好的，把对环境至关重要的某个人当作替罪羊，是不是更容易呢？这就是人们陷入麻烦的方式。

And if that's going on, then that set of defense mechanisms in action, right, creates something that obscures the ability to make good judgment, right? But with none of those things going on, then what are you doing? What you're applying your intelligence, you're applying your discernment, right? You're applying your desire to make things better. You're able to look at it. You're able to bring diligence, perseverance, right? You're able to bring healthy aspects of self to the question and decide like, oh, I don't want this and it should be different, right?

如果是那样的情况，那么那套防御机制会产生一些遮蔽我们做出良好判断能力的东西，对吧？但是在没有那些因素存在的情况下，你在做什么呢？你在运用你的智慧、洞察力，对吧？你在用你的愿望来改善事物。你能够审视它。你能够带来勤奋、毅力，对吧？你能够带来自我健康的一面来思考问题，并决定这不是我想要的，应该有所不同，对吧？

And there again, what's going on? There's a complexity under the surface. But now we're coming up towards simplicity, right? We're coming up towards the things that are healthier, that are simplistic. If we look then, okay, what's going on if you're making the same mistakes over and over again? Well, we could, you know, we would dive under the hood and really look and say, okay, what are you doing there? But it has to be an array of unhealthy defenses. There's no other thing it could be. So we would say, okay, are you using avoidance? Maybe a little, maybe a lot. What about denial? What about rationalization? What about projection? Like, you know, you go through the unhealthy defenses and you see what is it that you're bringing to bear that is leading you astray? And then, of course, the goal is to use the role modeling and you role model for yourself how to be healthy, right?

再说一次，发生了什么？在表面下存在着复杂性。但是现在我们正在朝着简单性的方向发展，对吧？我们正在朝着那些更健康、更简明的事物迈进。如果我们看一看，如果你一遍又一遍地犯同样的错误，那么发生了什么？嗯，我们可能要深入研究一下，看看你在那里做了什么。但无论如何，这必定是一系列不健康的防御机制。别无他法，我们就得说，你是否在逃避现实？也许有一点，也许很多。否认呢？合理化呢？投射呢？就像你知道的，你要仔细检查这些不健康的防御机制，看看你正施展出什么导致你迷失方向的行为。然后，当然，目标是借鉴角色建模，为自己树立健康的榜样，对吗？

So let's take that role modeling and apply it to the thing you're sort of carving out and treating differently. And that's the reason when people talk about repetition compulsions, you know, that's, it's not a formal term because, because what we're really talking about is repetition, right? And we're interested in like, why do we repeat things? Now, that's one reason, right? Because we bring an unhealthy set of defenses and then at the end of the day, things come out the same because we're bringing an unhealthy set of defenses, right? There can be other motivations that are related to all of that and there's, again, this complexity to it, but the compulsion part can be that we can reenter situations that didn't go well with the idea that we're going to fix what happened in the past. We're going to make ourselves feel better. We're going to take away the mark of trauma because remember, trauma doesn't care about the clock or the calendar.

因此，让我们将这种角色建模应用到你正在塑造和对待不同的事物上。这就是为什么当人们谈论重复强迫症时，你知道，那不是一个正式的术语，因为我们真正谈论的是重复，对吗？我们对于为什么我们会重复做事情感兴趣。这是一个原因，对吗？因为我们带着不健康的防御机制，最终导致事情的结果相同，因为我们带着不健康的防御机制。还有其他与此相关的动机，这其中还有复杂性，但强迫部分可能是我们重新进入那些过去不顺利的情境并试图修复过去发生的事情。我们想让自己感觉好一些。我们想消除创伤的痕迹，因为请记住，创伤不关心钟表或日历。

So that's why you'll see someone who has had, say, five abusive relationships that looked very much the same, right, and is about to enter the sixth, right? And you say, it's not because, hopefully, in most cases, not because that person wants to be hurt, right? I mean, sometimes it's a different problem, right? But there can be a drive inside of us to try and fix something. If I can make it work this time, I won't have to feel so bad about the other five, right? So an attempt to change the past through one's current actions. Right, which is rooted in the limbic system and how trauma affects us and how, again, it's outside the clock and the calendar, so that kind of magic, so to speak, can happen so the brain can seek that magic. But, again, there are unhealthy defenses coming into play, right? There has to be denial, right? Otherwise, the person would map, you know, if the same thing happened five times and this looks the same, it's probably going to happen now, right?

所以这就是为什么你会看到有些人经历过五次类似的虐待关系，然后又要进入第六次的原因，对吧？你会说，这并不是因为，大多数情况下希望不是因为那个人想被伤害，对吧？我的意思是，有时候问题可能不同，对吧？但是在我们内心深处可能有一种驱动力来试图修复某些事情。如果这一次我能使它成功，我就不会对其他五次感到那么糟糕了，对吧？所以这是通过当前行动试图改变过去的一种尝试。这种尝试根植于边缘系统，以及创伤对我们的影响，而且这是超越了时钟和日历的，所以那种所谓的魔法就会发生，大脑会寻求这种魔法。但是，同样存在一些不健康的防御机制，对吧？必须有否认存在，对吧？否则，这个人会推演出来，如果同样的事情发生了五次，而且看起来一样，那现在也可能会发生，对吧？

So any time you think a person, most often it's us, right, you know, is smart enough or worldly enough to, like, no better, which happens all the time, right? Then look for the answer, right? Say, well, shouldn't that person know better than to get into the sixth abusive relationship? The answer's like, yes, right? Like, because it's not that hard if you saw a set of circumstances five times to map that the sixth is going to have the same outcome, right? The person would do that in other scenarios, right? So then you say, right, that is true. So now let's look for why the person doesn't recognize that. And again, we go down into the structure of self and the function of self, defense mechanisms and actions, salience, the things that we're talking about now. Does that fit? Yeah, it makes sense in what comes to mind is the idea of getting into a car that you know is going to get into an accident over and over and over again, but being quite cognizant of safety and its importance in every other domain of life. Not even J-walking.

所以每当你认为一个人，通常是我们自己，聪明或世故到足以明白一些事情时，这种情况经常发生，对吧？那么就去寻找答案，对吧？比如说，那个人不应该知道不要陷入第六段虐待的关系吗？答案是，对吧？因为如果你已经见过五次类似的情况，那么很容易推测第六次结果会相同，对吧？这个人在其他场景下也会这样做，对吧？所以你说，对，这是真的。所以现在让我们寻找为什么这个人没有意识到这一点。再次，我们会深入自我结构、自卫机制和行为的功能，突出特点，像我们现在谈论的这些。这合理吗？是的，我能理解，并且我脑海中浮现的是在明知道一辆车会一再发生事故的情况下，人们仍然有意识地在生活的其他领域注重安全，甚至不会随意穿越马路。

Right. But if certain ubers arrived with a little flashing light that said this ride is going to have an accident, it's like getting into that vehicle. And I see this in others as well. Yes. And it raises all sorts of questions. Like, is the person actually unconsciously afraid of the vehicle arriving where they want to go? Because then, like, are people actually afraid of things working out? I mean, this gets to something that. I'm so sorry to interrupt. Can I say? Yeah. That's why you have to know the person, right? Like, who is that person, right? Why do they not want to get in that car? Right? Are they afraid they're not going to get somewhere? Are they going to get somewhere? Right? But ultimately, we're looking for unhealthy defenses.

没错。但是如果某些优步司机带着一个小的闪光灯表示这趟车会出事故，好像就要坐进那辆车一样。我也在其他人身上看到了这种情况。是的。这引发了很多问题。比如，这个人是否无意识地害怕到达他们想去的地方？因为这样的话，人们是否真的害怕事情顺利解决？我是说，这就涉及到了某种东西。非常抱歉打断一下。我可以说吗？是的。这就是为什么你必须了解那个人，对吧？像，那个人是谁，对吧？为什么他们不想坐进那辆车？对吧？他们害怕不能到达某个地方吗？还是能到达某个地方？对吧？但最终，我们要寻找的是不健康的防御机制。

And I still want to emphasize that that, you know, I will often think that the aspect of my education that's most helpful in me doing my job when I'm in the job as a practicing psychiatrist is actually my mathematics minor, right? Because there's a lot more math to this, right? People tend to think, oh, mental health, it's all esoteric and you can sort of say anything, you know, anything you want and there's no way of proving or disreading. It's not like that at all, right? There's a mathematical aspect to it. So if you do the correct logical, common sense thing, right, in all aspects of your life, you accept one and you're like 100 times more intelligent than you need to be to figure it all out, right? Then if there's a carve out, we say, look, that's of huge interest, right? I mean, the probability that we're going to find something interesting, there's 100%, right? Because we know that you know better. We know that you do better, but why here?

我还想强调的是，你知道的，我经常会觉得在我作为一名从业精神病学医生时，对我工作最有帮助的教育方面其实是我的数学专业。因为这其中涉及到更多的数学，对吗？人们往往认为，哦，心理健康，都是些玄妙的东西，你可以随意说任何事情，并且无法证明或反驳。但事实并非如此，对吧？其中存在着数学的一面。所以，如果你在生活的方方面面都采取正确的逻辑和常识性行为，那么你比你需要解决所有问题所需的智力高出100倍，对吧？然后，如果存在一些特殊情况，我们会说，看，这是非常有趣的。我们找到有趣的东西的可能性是100%，对吧？因为我们知道你知道得更多，你做得更好，但为什么会在这里呢？

So like, that's so interesting, right? Like, that's where the x marks the spot. Like, let's go dig there, right? So then when we go and dig there, like, we're going to find something, right? And we'll say, what is that? Like, do we find that like, oh, it's an array of really unhealthy defense mechanisms. Maybe we find that. Do we find that there's a deep unconscious motivation, right? Like, we might find that too, right? We might find a lot of things, right? But we're going to find them. If we go back to what is the structure of self, what is the function of self, if we go and look like that x marks the spot means there's pay dirt there, right? And then when we figure that out, then we go through and we can make things change. So if it's a deep-seated trauma-driven unconscious motivation that is resulting in an unhealthy array of defense mechanisms, well, let's go look at that, right? Let's look at the trauma. Let's take the thing that's unconscious and bring it to consciousness, right? Then we can make that better and that array of unhealthy defenses, again, we're not going to change it overnight. But can we change it very, very significantly, pretty rapidly? Probably yes. And we can almost entirely change it across time.

那个，真有趣对吧？就像，那就是那个地方。就像，我们去那里挖吧，对吧？那么，当我们去那里挖的时候，我们会发现一些东西，对吧？然后我们会问，那是什么？像，我们发现是一系列非常不健康的防御机制吗？也许我们会发现那个。我们会发现有一种深层的无意识动机，对吧？也许我们也会发现那个。我们可能会发现很多东西，对吧？但我们会找到它们。如果我们回到自我的结构是什么，自我的功能是什么，如果我们去寻找那个x标记的地方意味着那里有黄金，对吧？然后当我们弄清楚了那个，我们可以进行改变。所以，如果是由深层创伤驱动的无意识动机导致了一系列不健康的防御机制，那么让我们去看看，对吧？让我们去看看那个创伤。让我们将那个无意识的东西带到意识中，对吧？然后我们可以改善它，而那个不健康的防御机制，我们不会一夜之间改变它。但我们能否在很大程度上，相当迅速地改变它呢？很可能是的。而且我们几乎可以完全改变它。

So there's a mathematical aspect of this that I think is so important to point out because, you know, mental health, even as a field, right? We all want to be mentally healthy. Like, there's a rhyme and reason to it that yes, it follows science and yes, it also follows common sense. And if we apply those things, we get to answers. It's very reassuring. Thank you.

所以，我认为有一个数学方面的问题是非常重要的，因为你知道的，心理健康，甚至作为一个领域，我们都希望能够保持心理健康。就像这方面是有科学依据和常识的道理一样。如果我们运用这些原则，我们就能找到答案。这非常令人安心。谢谢。

Thinking about the functions of self and, again, just to remind myself and other people, it starts with self-awareness, involves defense mechanisms in action. Then there's the salience piece, but paying attention to what's inside of us as well as what's external. And then you're now describing a lot of choices, choice making and behavior and action in the world. I have to assume that for the person trying to improve themselves and get to agency and gratitude, that paying attention to all of these is important. But of course, if a defense mechanism is unconscious, we can't simply decide, okay, I'm going to see the unconscious defense mechanism. Does that mean that we should ask ourselves about what is most salient to us? Or should we be focusing on our behavioral choices? In the example I just gave, I'm aware of my behavioral choices, making certain decisions to engage with certain people and not with others. But should I be asking, for instance, what's salient? What are the thoughts leading up to that decision? In other words, how does salience of internal and external cues and processes relate to behavior? And which of these should we be paying attention to if our goal is to eventually change our behavior?

思考自我的功能，并再次提醒自己和他人，它始于自我意识，涉及防御机制的行动。接下来是关注重要性的部分，不仅关注内在，也关注外部。然后，你现在描述了许多选择、决策和行为。我认为，对于想要改善自己并感恩的人来说，关注所有这些是重要的。但是，当然，如果一个防御机制是无意识的，我们不能简单地决定，“好的，我要看到无意识的防御机制。”这是否意味着我们应该询问自己对我们最重要的是什么？或者我们应该关注我们的行为选择？在我刚刚提到的例子中，我意识到了自己的行为选择，做出了与某些人交往而不与其他人交往的决定。但是，我是否应该问问自己，例如，什么是重要的？决策前的思考是什么？换句话说，内部和外部线索和过程的显著性与行为有什么关系？如果我们的目标是最终改变我们的行为，我们应该关注其中哪些？

So think about what we're starting at the bottom. So we're starting with, okay, there is an eye. And that's just not just an apprehension. There's a lot to that. So for example, I know someone who is doing some mirror meditation, staring into the mirror, looking back itself with a desire to be aware. Like, there isn't me. Like this me is in the world, right? This is the first I've ever heard of such a practice. Except when I was in elementary school, maybe it was the ninth grade, I had a teacher who talked about, gave us an assignment to look in the mirror and ask ourselves questions.

想象一下我们从底层开始的情景。我们从一个眼睛开始，这不仅仅是一种理解。这其中包含着很多内容。例如，我认识一个人正在做镜子冥想，凝视着镜子，目光投向自己内在，并希望意识到存在。就像，这个我存在于这个世界上，对吗？这是我第一次听说这样一种实践方法。除了当我还在小学，可能是九年级时，有一位老师提到过一个任务，就是在镜子前面反思自己并问自己问题。

But if I understand correctly, you think there's utility to people spending a few minutes or more looking in the mirror and thinking about oneself and the eye as a way to build up this self-awareness. Do I have that right? If you want to take the best care of yourself that you care on, right? You want to understand yourself the best you care on. You want to make your life the best it can be. Then if there are answers, right, let's say the answers are in five or ten different cupboards, right? Look in all of them, right? I mean, that's the idea, right? If we want to know something, look everywhere for it and also realize what we are building, what we are creating, maybe a recipe. There may be things from different cupboards that overlap.

但是如果我理解正确的话，你认为花几分钟或更长时间照镜子并思考自己和眼睛，作为建立自我意识的一种方式是有用的。我理解对了吗？如果你想要最好地照顾自己，对吧？你想要尽可能了解自己。你希望让自己的生活变得尽可能好。那么如果存在答案，对吧，假设答案分散在五个或十个不同的柜子里，对吧？去打开每一个柜子，对吧？我的意思是，这是一个想法，对吧？如果我们想要了解某件事，就到处寻找答案，并意识到我们正在构建什么，创造什么，可能就像一个配方。不同柜子里的东西可能会有重叠。

So the way to translate that practically is to say, to find the answers to what is either ailing us, why we're repeating things we don't want to repeat, or even if things are going okay, but we want them to be going better because we don't quite feel the peace and contentment we want to feel. Then look everywhere. So in the function of self, in the function of self, start with the eye, right? There are ways of increasing self awareness. They can range from contemplation of self to meditation to looking in the mirror. There are things that we can do to more strongly emphasize to ourselves that there is an eye and this eye is going through life. Then we know that there are defense mechanisms and that they're present, that they're acting in us. We can't just see them because they're unconscious, but if we start thinking about them, we can learn about them. And that's where salience comes into play.

所以实际上翻译这句话的方法就是，寻找我们所遭受的问题的答案，为什么我们会重复一些我们不想重复的事情，或者即使一切都还好，但我们希望它们能变得更好，因为我们还没有感受到内心的平静和满足感。然后就到处寻找答案。因此，在自我功能中，从“我”开始，对增强自我意识有很多方法。它们可以从对自我进行思考，到冥想，再到照镜子等。有些事情我们可以做，以更强烈地告诉自己，存在着一个“我”，并且这个“我”正在经历生活。然后我们就知道了自卫机制的存在，它们存在于我们内心。我们无法直接看到它们，因为它们是无意识的，但如果我们开始思考它们，我们就能了解它们。这就是重要性的作用所在。

Salience kind of points both ways. Salience can point us towards the unconscious mind. I realize I'm doing this over and over again, or I'm saying this thing to myself over and over again. Where is that coming from? We start becoming curious about ourselves and we look to the unconscious mind and then we also look to the conscious mind. That's why after salience is behavior. Like, what am I doing? And a lot of times we don't know. Just examples of we don't know why we're doing things. Someone who wants to lose weight but always goes to the grocery store and comes home and has some sense of surprise that there are things there that they don't want to eat. Why am I behaving in a certain way? Why do certain things bother me when other things don't? Am I really touchy about one thing and not another? Why might there be things that bother others and not me or vice versa?

显著性这个概念有两面性。显著性能够指向我们的潜意识。我意识到自己一遍又一遍地做着同样的事情，或者一遍又一遍地对自己说同样的话。这是从哪里来的？我们开始对自己产生好奇，我们会同时关注潜意识和意识。这就是为什么显著性之后是行为。比如说，我在做什么？很多时候我们并不知道。举个例子，有人想减肥，但每次去杂货店回家后都会惊讶地发现有一些自己不想吃的东西。为什么我会以特定的方式行动？为什么有些事情困扰我而其他事情却不困扰？我是真的对某件事情敏感而对其他事情不敏感吗？为什么会有某些事情困扰别人而不困扰我，或者反之亦然？

So we're looking at what's going on inside of us and then how we respond. Because what may be upsetting me or what's going on inside of me, both conscious and unconscious, is then determining how I'm acting, how I'm behaving in the world around me. If I want a better job but I never take an interview for another job, I'm not going to get another job. If I want a romantic partner but I automatically turn away from anyone who smiles at me, I'm not going to have a romantic partner. If I want life to be better and there's a certain thing I repeat and I don't want to repeat that, I want to understand myself better so I can change the behavior. And that's why the function of self ends with strivings. The strivings are into the future. I know there is an eye. I know there's a network and web of defense mechanisms in action. I know that there's salience going on inside of me and I'm only going to pay attention to a few things from the thousands I could pay attention to. I want to be aware of that and have more control over that. Then I'm enacting behaviors. I'm engaging in the world around me and ultimately I want things.

所以我们正在观察我们内心发生的事情，以及我们对此的反应。因为令我不安的事情，以及我内心发生的事情，无论是有意识的还是无意识的，都决定了我在周围世界中的行为和表现。如果我想要一份更好的工作，但从未参加其他工作的面试，我就不会得到另一份工作。如果我想要一个浪漫的伴侣，但我自动地对任何对我微笑的人疏远，我就不会有一个浪漫的伴侣。如果我想要生活变得更好，有一件我不想再重复的事情，我想更好地了解自己，以便改变这种行为。这就是为什么自我功能以奋斗结束。这些奋斗都是针对未来的。我知道有一个自我。我知道有一个防御机制的网络和网络在运作。我知道我内心发生的一些重要事情，但我只会关注其中的几件事情，而不是成千上万的事情中。我希望意识到这一点，并对此有更多的控制。然后我会采取行动。我会融入周围的世界，最终我想要实现一些事情。

I want life to be better. I want to have that feeling that you can get to. I want to be in the state of agency and gratitude. So again, these two pillars, structure of self, function of self, that's where all the answers are. So there are all the cupboards, right? There are these five cupboards in the structure of self and five in the function of self. And I know there'll be a, you know, we'll have it out there in a PDF, right? Because you can go back there and that's where the vast majority of answers are to both understanding and routes to change.

我想让生活变得更好。我希望能够拥有那种感觉。我希望能够处于能够行动和感恩的状态。所以，再次强调，这两个支柱，自我的结构和自我的功能，就是所有答案的所在。所以，在这里有所有的橱柜，对吧？在自我的结构中有五个橱柜，在自我的功能中也有五个橱柜。我知道我们将会用PDF发布出来，对吧？因为你可以回过去去那里找到绝大多数的答案，无论是理解还是改变的途径。

What you just described is incredibly helpful. It's absolutely apparent to me why looking in all the cupboards is so key. It's also apparent that many different aspects of psychology and psychiatry, at least as I understand them, might probe for instance, just at the level of behavior. You know, I think this is the just do it mantra. Well, just do the right thing, right? You know, you're not finding a romantic partner, like, you know, schedule three dinners with friends and ask them to invite over people who are looking for part of it. Sounds really simple, right? But much as with the example of my friend who lost all this weight through behavioral change, the fear still lives within him very, very strongly. And so clearly there's some, some stuff happening underneath there. Now, fortunately he did lose the weight and he's kept most of it off. But it's clear to me that until he addresses some of these other issues of salience and defense mechanism, self-awareness, et cetera, that the fear he's still experiencing makes total sense because the foundation of that change is not nearly associated with the fact that he's still experiencing nearly as strong as it could be. Maybe, right? Or maybe it is an app to have the fear, but he's not going to learn either one without the exploration. So he won't, if there is risk, he won't be able to avert the risk. And if there's not risk, he's then sort of laboring through life, which is difficult enough without being worried about something you don't have to be worried about, right? So the process of inquiry will always make that better. It's clear to me that his fear of regaining weight is absolutely sapping his enjoyment and his productivity in other domains of life. So warrants attention, right? Because we're deciding in that sort of mathematical way, like, it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't mean it can change overnight, but it can be understood and it can be changed.

你刚才描述的非常有帮助。我非常清楚为什么查看所有的橱柜是如此关键。同时，我也清楚，在心理学和精神病学的许多不同方面，至少按照我理解的那样，可能会仅仅在行为层面进行探究。你知道，我认为这就是“只管去做”的口号。好吧，只管做正确的事情，对吧？你知道，你想要找到一个浪漫的伴侣，就去安排三次与朋友的晚餐，并请他们邀请正在寻找伴侣的人。听起来很简单，对吧？但就像我的朋友通过改变行为方式减掉了所有的体重一样，恐惧依然很强烈地存在他的内心。因此，显然在他内心深处发生了一些事情。现在，幸运的是，他确实减掉了体重，并且保持了大部分体重的减轻。但对我来说很明显，在他解决其他与重要性和防御机制、自我意识等有关的问题之前，他仍然经历的恐惧是完全合理的，因为这种变化的基础并没有与他目前所经历的一样强烈联系起来。也许，对吧？或许确实有恐惧的必要，但如果不去探索，他将无法学到两者中的任何一个。如果存在风险，他将无法避免风险。如果没有风险，他将在生活中劳心劳力，而生活已经足够艰难了，不必为不必担心的事情而担心，对吧？调查的过程将总是使事情变得更好。对我来说，他对重新增加体重的恐惧明显削弱了他在生活的其他领域的享受和工作生产力，所以值得关注。因为我们是在以一种数学的方式决定，事情不必是那样的。这并不意味着一夜之间就可以改变，但它可以被理解和改变。

Well, it's for that reason and many other reasons that I'm very grateful that you explained these two pillars, structure of self and function of self and how these flow up to empowerment and humility and how those flow up to agency and gratitude, you've given us a set of ideals and a roadmap of how to get there. And one that we're going to continue with in a moment here. I did want to reiterate what you said, which is that there is a PDF version of this structure, this roadmap of ideals and how to get there. That's been provided as a link in the show note captions so people can refer to them there in visual form if they like.

好的，正因为这个原因和其他许多原因，我非常感激你解释了这两个支柱，即自我结构和自我功能，以及它们如何导致授权和谦卑，以及这些又如何导致行动和感激之情。你为我们提供了一套理想和实现方式的路线图，对此我非常感谢。而且，马上我们将继续进行下去。我想重申一下你所说的，也就是这个结构的PDF版本，以及理想和实现方式的路线图已经提供在剧集注释中的链接中，这样人们可以在其中以视觉形式参考。

If you're interested in understanding yourself and in having goodness in your life as much as you possibly can, then you're interested in the structure of the mind. And this means that you're interested in the unconscious mind in all the things that go on a million things a second that we don't know or understand one by one, but that we can explore and understand better in total. We're also interested in the conscious mind in being self aware or interested in the array of defense mechanisms and whether or not they're elegant and light passes clearly through them or whether they're distorting light and creating misperception. If you're interested in the structure of the mind, then you're also interested in the character structure. Like what is your character structure? What is the nest around all of it? How do you interface with the world? And then you're interested in the self that you grow from that phenomenologically, meaning what is your experience of self? How does it feel to you? These are all important parts of this pillar of health and happiness.

如果你对了解自己和尽可能拥有幸福的生活感兴趣，那么你就对心灵结构感兴趣。这意味着你对无意识的心灵以及每秒进行的连续无法单一理解或了解的事物都很感兴趣，但我们可以从整体上进行探索和更好地理解。我们也对有意识的心灵很感兴趣，关注自我意识或防御机制的种种表现方式，以及它们是否优雅地透过我们，让光线通透，或者它们是否会扭曲光线，产生误解。如果你对心灵结构感兴趣，那么你也对性格结构感兴趣。比如，你的性格结构是怎样的？它周围是怎样的环境？你如何与世界互动？然后，你对从这个现象学意义上成长的自我也很感兴趣，也就是说你对自我体验是怎样的？它给你带来了怎样的感受？所有这些都是健康和幸福支柱中重要的部分。

The other pillar is the function of the mind. And of course there's overlap. There are different covers, but the cupboards all contain different ingredients that together make the recipe. So if we're interested in the function of the mind, then we want to pay attention that there's an eye. We want to be self aware and we want to cultivate self awareness. We're also interested in how those defense mechanisms work when they're in action. What's salient inside of us and outside of us? What are we paying attention to? How are we behaving? What are our strivings? Do we feel hopeful about ourselves and the world around us? And if we're interested in all of these things, we can't help but be respectful of just how complicated this is. Life is difficult and understanding ourselves is difficult. A wonderful joy can come of living life, but it is hard and it's hard day by day and trying to understand ourselves going to these places, these pillars that hold the answers. They can't but make us a respect for all of it. And the respect for ourselves, for others brings with it humility.

在井然有序的观念中，大脑功能是另一个支柱。当然，这两者之间存在重叠。不同的书柜装着不同的材料，它们共同构成了菜谱。所以，如果我们对大脑功能感兴趣，我们需要注意到有个"我"存在。我们希望能够自我觉知并培养自我意识。我们还对那些防御机制在发挥作用时的工作方式感兴趣。我们内外部的关键点是什么？我们注意到什么？我们的行为是如何的？我们的努力是什么？我们对自己和周围世界的前景感到乐观吗？如果我们对这些事情感兴趣，我们不可避免地会意识到其中的复杂性。生活是困难的，理解自己也是困难的。生活带来了美好的喜悦，但它是艰难的，而且是每一天都很艰难。试图去理解自己，寻找这些支柱中的答案，必然会让我们为此感到尊重。对自己和他人的尊重也会带来谦卑。

When we come to this point of looking at ourselves and exploring, then yes, we become empowered because we've gained a lot of knowledge. We're digging where the pay dirt is and we're figuring things out. And along with that empowerment comes humility, a respectfulness for how difficult all of this is, how complicated we are, how we can make happiness in our lives, but how it certainly isn't easy. And we take with us the empowerment and the humility and we express them. And if we're expressing empowerment and humility, we come to living through agency and gratitude. So here both are active words. So agency, it's easier to see it. It's an active word where I'm aware of my ability to project myself into the world around me. I know that I can't control everything, but I'm really trying to understand what can I control? How can I control it? What do my decisions now lead to in the future? So agency is very, very active.

当我们到达这个看待自己和探索的阶段时，是的，我们变得有力量了，因为我们获得了很多知识。我们正在挖掘蕴藏机会的地方，逐渐明白事物的原委。伴随着这种能力的增强，还带来了谦卑，一种对所有这一切的困难之处和我们的复杂性的尊重，以及我们如何在生活中创造幸福，但这绝对不容易。我们带着力量和谦卑并表达它们。如果我们表达力量和谦卑，我们就能够通过自主和感激来生活。所以这两个概念都是积极的词语。自主感相对容易理解。它是一个积极的词语，表明我意识到自己能够在周围世界中施加影响。我知道我不能控制一切，但我真的在努力理解我能掌控什么？我如何掌控它？我的决定现在将引发什么样的未来？因此，自主感是非常积极主动的。

Gratitude is active too. We're bringing an active sense of gratitude, a sense of the amazingness that we're here and pride in ourselves and others for being here and trying to move forward as best we can. And then we bring that to our interactions. We're much more likely to have a kind gesture towards others instead of being angry. We're much more likely to have something compassionate to say, including to ourselves than we are to have something angry to say. That gratitude accompanies agency, their active words and their active together. And if we're living life through agency and gratitude, I mean, there's a lot of wisdom about this. There's a lot that's been written and researched about this. And if you look at what is it telling us, right? Remember, things are getting simpler, right? As we're getting higher up the levels here, right? The unconscious mind is most complicated.

感激之心也是积极的。我们带着一种积极的感激之情，对我们能够存在和自己及他人为了尽力前进而感到骄傲。然后我们将这种感激之情带到我们的互动中。我们更有可能向他人友善而不是生气。我们更有可能说出富有同情心的话语，包括对自己的话语，而不是发泄怒火。感激之心伴随着行动力，伴随着积极的言辞和共同的行动。如果我们以行动力和感激之心来生活，这其中蕴含着很多智慧。有很多关于这方面的书籍和研究。如果你看看它们告诉我们什么，对吧？记住，事情变得越来越简单，对吧？无意识的心灵是最复杂的。

Now we're at, hey, can we live our lives with agency and gratitude at the forefront? And what does it bring for us? And I think it brings what we are seeking, that we might say, okay, we're seeking happiness. And that can mean a lot of things, you know, a lot of different things. It can be a very active thing. Am I happy in the moment? And we can use happiness sometimes to distract ourselves. Like, happiness is important. But words, when people really think, like, what is it that they want or what is it that they have, right? If they're overjoyed to be alive, they're finding a sense of peace. They're finding contentment. They're finding delight, the ability to be delighted. This is what people want. Our human history and our searchings tell us this and our own experiences tell us this.

现在，我们在这里，嘿，我们能否以自主和感激的态度来生活？这给我们带来了什么？我认为它带给我们正在寻求的东西，我们可能会说，好吧，我们正在寻求幸福。而幸福可能意味着很多不同的事情，你知道，很多不同的事情。它可以是一种非常积极的东西。我现在快乐吗？有时候我们可以用幸福来分散注意力。幸福很重要。但当人们真正思考时，他们想要的是什么，或者他们拥有的是什么，对吗？如果他们为活着而欣喜若狂，他们会找到一种平静感。他们找到了满足感。他们找到了愉悦，被愉悦的能力。这就是人们想要的。我们的人类历史和我们的探索告诉我们这一点，我们自己的经历也告诉我们这一点。

And now it could lead a person to think, well, okay, what's going on? I mean, is this someone who's, you know, levitating at the top of a mountain? Like, is this just a state? Is this a state that people are in? And the answer is no. There'll be some times we could be in that state where we can feel peace. There's no tension inside of us, right? I can feel to have times when I don't feel tension inside of me. There's contentment. There's peace. I don't have to drive towards anything, right?

现在这可能使一个人产生思考，好吧，发生了什么？我的意思是，这是一个人在山顶漂浮吗？这只是一种状态吗？人们是处于这种状态吗？答案是否定的。我们有时可以处于这种状态，感受到内心的平静。我会感觉到在某些时候我内心没有紧张感。有满足感。有平静。我不需要追求任何事情，对吧？

But it's not the passive experience of it because we are living life. It's that that feeling goes hand in hand with a drive within us, that when we're in this healthy place, we are living life, the decisions that we're making. What is putting the rubber to the road? It is a generative drive within us. There is a drive to make things better, to understand, to explore. And it's that drive that we access and cultivate.

但这并不是被动的体验，因为我们正在生活。这种感觉与我们内心的驱动息息相关，当我们身处健康的境地时，我们正在经历人生，做出决策。是什么驱使我们付诸行动？这是我们内心发自而生的驱动力。我们有一种使事物变得更好、去理解、去探索的驱动力，并且我们可以调动和培养这种驱动力。

And synonymous with happiness is it's not just the state when people want to be happy in that very, very general way. Yes, contentment, peace, delight, right? But they're happening as we're living life, right? As we're enacting a generative drive where we're looking at ourselves in the world around us and we're interested in understanding. We're interested in making things better. And that's the place that we're trying to get to. I believe that with all my heart and my brain, my education, training, experience, and also experience living life. And for 20 years doing this work with people tells me this is what we're seeking and it's an active way of experiencing ourselves and our place in life.

与幸福同义的是，它不仅仅是当人们想要以非常非常普遍的方式变得幸福时的状态。是的，满足、平静、愉悦，对吧？但它们发生在我们生活的过程中，对吧？当我们实现一种创造性的推动力时，我们关注自己和周围的世界，并对理解感兴趣。我们对改善事物感兴趣。这就是我们努力达到的境地。我用我全部的心灵、头脑、教育、训练和经验相信这一点，也是通过生活经验告诉我的。20年来与人们共事告诉我，这就是我们追求的，并且这是一种积极地经历自我和自己在生活中的位置的方式。

I love that because it merges both the nouns and the adjectives and the verbs. And this notion of a generative drive to me is so compelling because I have the sense, and I hope I'm right, that we all have some sort of generative drive within us, starting at an early stage. Maybe it even starts as visual foraging or touching things with our hands as an infant and an exploration of the world, right? It is what brings about the changes in the neural circuitry that allow us to engage even more and progressively on the one hand, in narrower ways but also with more richness and more detail.

我喜欢它是因为它结合了名词、形容词和动词。而且对我来说，一个创造性驱动的概念非常有吸引力，因为我有一种感觉，希望我是正确的，就是我们所有人都在某种程度上都具有一种创造性的驱动力，从早期开始。也许它甚至从视觉搜索或者婴儿用手触摸东西、探索世界开始。它带来了神经回路的变化，让我们能够更加积极地参与，并逐渐以更狭窄但更丰富、更详细的方式。

Could you tell us more about generative drive and how this shows up in different types of people? Is it always positive? Can there be too much of it? I certainly know a number of people who are addicted to work. Those of you listening, I'm raising my hand. But I would say nowadays I'm not as addicted to work as I once was in the sense that I derive far more satisfaction from less work now, provided that the work is really in-depth. I think that there were years in graduate school where I wanted to publish a bunch of papers and then quickly realized through the not so gentle persuasion of my mentors that let's just do the best possible work we can do. There's so much more richness and experience and things to be gained from that.

你能告诉我们更多关于生成驱动力的信息以及它在不同类型的人身上是如何表现出来的吗？它总是积极的吗？是否会过度发展？我确实认识一些对工作上瘾的人。对于在座的听众，我举手示意。但我会说，现在我对工作的上瘾没有过去那么严重了，因为我发现只要工作真正深入，我从较少的工作中获得的满足感要更多。在研究生期间的几年里，我想要发表许多论文，但通过导师的严格要求，我很快意识到我们应该尽力做到最好。从中可以获取更丰富的经验与成果。

I'm familiar with generative drive as I understand it, but maybe if you would, if you could flush out a bit of what generative drive is, and does it arrive in parallel with or before we are able to access piece contentment and delight? Can it even be separated out from that? What is this generative drive?

我对生成驱动很熟悉，因为我理解它，但也许你能稍微详细说明一下什么是生成驱动，它是否与我们能够获得内心的满足和喜悦同时出现，甚至能够与之分离吗？这个生成驱动是什么？

Yeah. So drives are built into us. So there's synonymous with our existence. If we exist, then we have the drive. That's how the drive is defined. And we understand going far back to psychodynamic and psychoanalytic roots and when people were really thinking hard about human beings and what's going on inside of us that we've sort of identified and then validated over the period of time since that we have aggressive drives within us and we have drives towards pleasure.

是的。所以驱动是与我们的存在紧密相连的。如果我们存在，那么我们就有驱动力。这就是驱动力的定义。我们能够理解到心理动力学和精神分析的根源，当人们在认真思考人类和我们内心发生的事情时，我们已经确定并在此后一段时间内验证了我们内在存在着攻击性的驱动力和追求快乐的驱动力。

Now, this often gets misunderstood that aggression can be active violent aggression, for example, but aggression can also be a sense of agency, right? The inaction of agency. Like, I want to do things. I want to change things. I want to make the world a different place, right? That all of that comes under this drive. So an aggressive drive is not a bad thing. If we had no aggressive drives, the thought is we'd just lie down and nothing else would happen and then we'd all be gone, right? So there's a way in which this drive within us moves us forward, right? And of course, extremely complicated the ways we can manifest too much of it or too little of it or how our defense mechanisms can intertwine with the drive, but the drive is there. It's like it's fuel within us that comes with our existence and then how that fuel moves us forward, how much of it there is. Note that is determined by the meshing of the drive with how we're living life, right? And the same would be true of pleasure.

现在，这常常被误解为攻击性可以是主动的暴力攻击，例如，但攻击性也可以是一种主动性，对吗？主动无为。就像，我想做事情。我想改变事物。我想让世界变得不同，对吧？所有这些都属于这种动力之下。因此，一种攻击性的动力并不是一件坏事。如果我们没有攻击性的动力，我们会躺下来什么都不做，然后我们都会消失，对吧？所以在我们内心深处，这种动力推动着我们前进，对吗？当然，我们能够过度表现或过低表现这一动力的方式非常复杂，以及我们的防御机制如何与这种动力交织在一起，但这种动力是存在的。就像是我们存在中的燃料，然后这种燃料如何推动我们向前，它有多少。请注意，这是由这种动力与我们如何生活的结合决定的，对吗？同样适用于快乐。

The pleasure drive doesn't just mean that we all want to be heatiness inside. It means that we want things that are gratifying. We want to feel good, right? This isn't just the drive towards physical pleasure, like a sex drive or eating food or having comfort. Like all of that can be part of it, but it's a drive for relief, right?

愉悦驱动不仅仅意味着我们希望内心充满热情，而是意味着我们渴望满足感。我们希望感觉良好，对吧？这并不仅仅是对物质上的快乐的追求，比如性欲、进食或舒适感。尽管以上都可能是其中的一部分，但更多的是一种对缓解的追求，对舒适感的驱动。

The idea that we don't want to be white knuckling life, right? Searching for pleasure. So it's having aggression within us as we white knuckle life and we search for some pleasure and relief, right? These drives within us can be healthy. They can be unhealthy. They can be anything, right? They're well springs within us that then fuel us forward. And there's controversy to the idea of is there a generative drive? And there's certainly parts of the field that do not think so, right? But there have been strong thinkers in the field that have thought we do have a generative drive, that it is within us to look around us, to be curious, to be amazed, right?

我们不想过得像抓紧生命一样紧绷，对吗？我们寻求快乐。所以，在我们抓紧生活并寻求快乐和解脱的同时，我们内心充满了冲动，对吗？这些冲动在我们内心涌动，推动着我们前进。对这个生成性冲动的概念存在争议。当然，领域中有些人并不这么认为，对吗？但是这个领域中也有一些深思熟虑的人认为我们确实有一种生成性冲动，我们有能力环顾四周、好奇并感到惊奇，对吧？

And the idea of how can I engage with this and make this better or happier to think outside of ourselves, right? To think, if I feel good and you're in pain, can I make you feel better, right? Having nothing to do with me, right? The idea of altruism coming to the fore and having industriousness with us, within us, right? And the idea that there is a generative drive, it's strengthened when you look at how humans behave when we're not struggling, right?

而且，我如何参与其中并使之更好，或者更快乐，去思考自己以外的事情，对吗？去思考，如果我感觉良好而你痛苦，我能否让你感觉更好，对吗？与我无关，对吗？利他主义的观念浮现并与我们共存，对吗？而且，当我们不再挣扎时观察人类行为，这种生成动力就变得更加强大，对吗？

That people are interested in learning. You think about how much people give of themselves to learning or to serving others. Like there's so much of this goodness in the world around us. Now if we shut people away, right? They have no, you know, imagine, you know, God forbid someone is in a solitary confinement from when the moment they're born, you know, then there's not an opportunity for the generative drive to thrive, right? And we see so many, so many situations where it doesn't thrive enough, right?

人们对学习非常感兴趣。你想想人们为学习或为服务他人所付出的努力有多少。就像我们周围世界中存在着如此多的善良。但如果我们把人们关起来，对吗？他们没有机会，你知道的，天啊，如果有人从出生时就被关在单独的环境中，那就没有机会实现创造性的推动力，对吗？我们看到很多情况下，这种推动力并没有得到足够的发展，对吗？

You know, violence in people's surroundings, lack of opportunities, right? That we can squelch a generative drive, anyone's generative drive, but if we give ourselves opportunities, if we're healthy, that we're not weighed down by trauma and illness and misperceptions of self and we can live life in a way that brings us to agency and gratitude, now we're allying with the generative drive that I absolutely believe is within us. I think just look at life, look at human beings. We observe that we have this drive within us.

你知道的，暴力在人们周围的环境中存在，机会不足，对吧？我们可以扼杀创造性的推动力，任何人的创造性推动力，但是如果我们给自己机会，如果我们身体健康，没有被创伤、疾病和对自我的错误认知所拖累，我们可以以一种能带给我们自治和感激之道的方式生活，现在我们正在与我坚信存在于我们内心的创造性推动力结盟。我认为只要看看生活，看看人类。我们观察到我们内心有这种推动力。

And if that drive is at the forefront and that drive then naturally, of course, lies with agency and gratitude, then I think we're at the place that is the place we ultimately seek, right? And that we can find it for brief periods of time. So by really pursuing this and really strongly in my own therapy and reflection and attempts to understand, I can have periods of time where I can feel that way. I can feel outward growth and interest in the world and I feel good. I'm not trying to answer some question of like, why am I alive or like I'm doing things that I feel good about and I feel good about doing those things and about being in the world?

如果这种驱动力处于前沿位置，而且这种驱动力自然而然地与机会和感激心息息相关，那么我认为我们就处于我们最终追求的位置，对吧？虽然只能在短暂的时间内找到那种感觉。所以通过真正追求这个，并在我的治疗、反思和理解的努力中真正努力，我可以有一段时间感受到那种感觉。我可以感受到外在的成长和对世界的兴趣，我感觉良好。我不是在试图回答一些问题，比如为什么我活着之类的，我在做一些让我感觉良好的事情，并且对这些事情和存在于世界中感到满意。

And I think this is not uncommon. It may be far more common in societies that are allegedly less advanced, right? That is, I have less distractions or maybe less knowledge of all the awful things in the world that can happen to us that are constantly fed to us. There are a whole bunch of other questions and topics about it.

我认为这种情况并不罕见。在据说不太发达的社会中，这可能更加普遍，对吧？也就是说，我受到的干扰可能较少，或者对世界上可能发生在我们身上的可怕事情的了解较少，这些事情不断地被灌输给我们。关于这个问题还有许多其他的疑问和话题。

But this absolute belief that there's this generative drive in us that wants to ally with agency and gratitude and that we all have it within us to bring those to the forefront and to find that thing that we seek, whether someone's person says it's Nirvana, the other person, says it's joy or happiness or peace or numbing. You know, whatever it is, there's something to it where we're not feeling the tension within us. We're not feeling the anxiety, the pressures, but we're feeling a sense of goodness.

但这种绝对的信念是，我们内心有一种产生力量，渴望结盟并感恩，并且我们所有人都拥有这种力量，可以将它们放在首位，并找到我们所追求的东西，无论某人说它是涅槃，另一个人说它是喜悦、快乐、和平或麻木。你知道的，不管是什么，它都有一种意义，那就是我们内心不再感受到紧张。我们不再感到焦虑、压力，而是感受到一种良善的感觉。

The way you're describing it makes perfect sense why peace, contentment and delight be so closely linked to this generative drive. The word peace, as you alluded to, is often brings to mind the idea of passivity, but generative drive and the inclusion of things like aggression and a drive for pleasure or anything but passive. So I think that's important for me and for everyone to understand that peace, contentment and delight can really be action terms. Again, moving them from the more typical conception of them to verb states.

你对这种描述的方式使得和平、满足和愉悦与这种生生成长的动力如此紧密关联显得非常合理。正如你所暗示的，和平常常让人联想到被动性，但是生生成长的动力以及包括侵略和对乐趣的追求在内的因素绝不是消极的。因此，我认为重要的是我和每个人都理解和平、满足和愉悦实际上可以是行动的词汇。再次强调，将它们从更典型的概念转变为动词状态。

So peace, contentment and delight are not passive states. There can be periods of time where we can be just very peaceful and very much at rest, but those words are not synonymous with inaction. In fact, there's synonymous with action a lot of the time. If we are suffused with peace, contentment, the ability to delight, then what we're doing is we're raising up the generative drive. We're making conditions that are permissive for the generative drive to come to the forefront, to be paramount over the aggressive and the pleasure drives.

和平、满足和喜悦并不是消极的状态。有时可能会有一段时间，我们会非常平静、非常安宁，但是这些词与不活动并不是同义词。实际上，在大多数情况下，它们与行动是同义词。如果我们充满了和平、满足和喜悦，那么我们正在提升生成驱动力。我们正在创造有利于生成驱动力冒头、占主导地位的条件，比侵略性和快乐驱动力更重要。

Remember, we're not trying to get rid of those drives. We just want the generative drive in us to be at the forefront, then we'll be able to harness the aggressive drive through, for example, a strong sense of agency, fueling the sense of agency forward as opposed to destructive aggression. The search for pleasure, which sure can include physical pleasures in ways that are good and reasonable and healthy for us, but also the pleasure of learning. The pleasure that altruism brings, that we can take the aggressive drive that we know is in us and the pleasure drive that we know is in us and we can dial them to the right places.

记住，我们并不是要摆脱那些驱动力。我们只是希望我们内在的创造性驱动能够处于前沿位置，然后通过比如强烈的自主感来利用进攻性驱动力，推动自主感向前发展，而不是以破坏性的进攻为导向。对快乐的追求，肯定可以包括对对身体的愉悦，但也包括学习的乐趣。无私行为带来的快乐，我们可以调整我们内在已知的进攻性驱动力和快乐驱动力，将它们引导到正确的方向。

This gets very complicated and it's easy to dial that too far up and it's easy to dial it too far down. But if both are serving the generative drive because we lift up the generative drive and we bring it to primacy by being able to handle our lives, to understand ourselves, to go back to those pillars and to build upon it, the agency and the gratitude that then leads us to peace, contentment and delight. We can put all of this together and we're really and truly living in an active way in the world that's good for us, good for the world around us and doesn't leave us with a sense of yearning or a sense of tension within us.

这变得非常复杂，并且很容易将其调得过高，也很容易将其调得过低。但是，如果两者都是为了发展驱动力而服务的，因为我们提升了发展驱动力并使其处于首位，从而能够处理我们的生活，了解自己，回到那些支柱上并在其基础上建立，这种主动性和感激之情会带领我们达到和平、满足和快乐。我们可以将所有这些元素结合在一起，真正地在世界中以积极的方式生活，这对我们自己和周围的世界都是有益的，不会让我们产生焦虑或内心的紧张感。

Do you think it's also the case that generative drive has kind of a self amplification feature to it? What comes to mind is you're describing generative drive and its relationship to peace, contentment and delight is that approximately a half hour after I wake up, I start to feel more physically energized. I'm not somebody who just pops out of bed and is ready to go exercise or do mental work. But about 30 minutes or so after waking, my mind starts to wake up and I've noticed that if I read a scientific paper or if I read a chapter in a book or if I do something that feels a little bit difficult, cognitively difficult in particular, that the sense of satisfaction that I get from that is immense.

你认为生成性驱动也具有一种自我放大的特性吗？我联想到你对生成性驱动及其与和平、满足和喜悦之间的关系的描述是，在我醒来大约半小时后，我开始感到身体更有活力。我并不是那种立刻从床上弹起来准备去锻炼或做脑力工作的人。不过，大约30分钟左右醒来后，我的思维开始清醒，并且我注意到，如果我读一篇科学论文，或者读一本书的一章，或者做一些感觉上有些困难的事情，特别是认知上的困难，那个时候我得到的满足感是巨大的。

And it's not necessarily the case that I have to learn something that I'm going to use that day, but for me learning and often learning and sharing what I learn with the world, whether or not they want to hear it or not, is part of my pleasure loop. And I've learned that if I don't capture some new knowledge in a way that's challenging in the morning time, I feel like the gears are still turning, but I start to lose energy. Whereas if I find something interesting in particular and write it down and I feel like I own it, that's what I enjoy so much about learning. It's like it's in there, maybe it'll be useful at some point, maybe it won't, but it's like an animal finding a tool that it can maybe use to forage more effectively later in life.

并不一定是我必须学习我当天要使用的东西，但对我来说，学习并且经常学习并与世界分享我所学到的东西，无论他们是否想听，都是我快乐的一部分。我已经发现，如果我不在早上时以一种具有挑战性的方式获取一些新知识，我感觉大脑仍在运转，但我开始失去精力。而当我找到一些特别有趣的东西并将其记录下来时，我感觉像是拥有了它，这就是我对学习如此喜欢的原因。就像动物找到了一种可能在以后生活中更有效地觅食的工具，它在里面，也许在某个时候会有用，也许不会有用。

I get such a sense of satisfaction that then I find that I have immense energy to do whatever is next, whether or not that's exercise or learn more or prepare a podcast or write a grant or work on a paper. This feature of my mental life is so prominent that I almost have to force myself to do it each day. And there are so many distractions in the world nowadays that I've come to a place where I almost have to force myself to do what I know works for me. But when I do, it feels like a, almost like a chemical rocket fuel. And it doesn't make me manic or crazy.

我感到非常满足，以至于我拥有巨大的能量来做接下来的事情，无论是运动、学习更多知识、准备播客、撰写申请或者研究论文。这种心理状态在我的生活中非常突出，以至于我几乎每天都不得不强迫自己去做。如今世界上有太多干扰，以至于我几乎要强迫自己去做我知道适合我的事情。但是当我这样做时，感觉就像是一种化学推进剂。而且这不会让我变得狂躁或疯狂。

I don't need to pick up the phone and call somebody or tell everybody about her post on social media. It's more of a deep sense of satisfaction and I get energy from it. Is that the generative drive? Well, it's great that that works for you. What you're saying is that for you, you can prime your generative drive that way. And then you prime it, you prime the palm, it gets revved up. And then it's really manifesting itself inside of you. I mean, there's many different manifestations of the generative drive as there are people. So something's going to work for some person. Other things are going to work for a different person. But you're saying that, hey, I know this thing works for me.

我不需要拿起电话给别人打电话或者告诉每个人她在社交媒体上的帖子。这更像是一种深层次的满足感，我从中获得能量。这就是所谓的生成动力吗？嗯，如果这对你有效，那真是太好了。你说的是对于你来说，你可以通过这种方式激发你的生成动力。然后你激发它，你激发你的动力，并且它真的在你的内心展现出来。生成动力的表现形式因人而异，就像人们一样多样。对某些人来说，某种方法可能有效，而对另一些人来说，可能是其他事情有效。但你说，嘿，我知道这个方法对我有效。

And even though sometimes it's not easy to do, I do it and then look what it gets for me. And that's really healthy. It's like knowing that this thing works for you and then you become committed to it because your generative drive is really strongly supported by it. And then you have this sense of good feeling. So then you have the peace and you have just the overall sense of goodness, right?

尽管有时候这并不容易做，我还是去做了，然后看看得到了什么。这真的很健康。就好像你知道这件事对你有效，然后你就会投入其中，因为它能大力支持你的生产力驱动。然后你就会有一种良好的感觉。于是你拥有了平静，也有了整体的善意感受，对吧？

You know, peace and contentment and delight. You're getting that and learning and in teaching. So you're figuring out, like, hey, this works for me. And again, you don't have to figure it out through this lens. It's if we find parts that aren't working, then we go back and we figure them out. Maybe a good example, maybe is, so let's say you take someone who really enjoys gardening and gets something out of gardening, right? So there are as many generative drives and how they're measured out as there are humans, but there can be common outcomes of them, right?

你知道的，和平、满足和喜悦。你正在获得这些并且在学习和教导中。所以你会搞清楚，嘿，这对我有效。而且你不必透过这个镜头搞清楚。如果我们发现某些部分不起作用，我们会回过头来解决它们。或许一个好的例子就是，假设有人非常喜欢园艺，并从中获得某种收获，对吧？所以有许多种不同的生成驱动及它们的衡量方式，就像有多少人类一样多，但其中可以产生共同的结果，对吧？

So the enjoyment of fostering plants, growing a garden, that's not uncommon in humans, right? So imagine someone who hasn't been doing that, right? They really want to. They have a drive to do it. There's a plot of land in the back that they used to cultivate, right? So if they're not doing it, there are any number of reasons. Maybe they were depressed and they needed mental health treatment. Maybe they just got away from the path that they were on. Maybe their defenses shifted a little bit. Whatever the case may be, they go back to the pillars and they figure it out, right?

所以培育植物、种花园的乐趣，在人类中并不罕见，对吧？想象一下，有人从未尝试过这样做，对吧？但他们真的很想试试，内心驱使着他们去做。他们后院有一块曾经耕种过的土地，对吧？那么如果他们不再耕种，可能有很多原因。也许他们陷入了抑郁，需要精神健康治疗。也许他们偏离了原先的道路。也许他们的防线有所调整。无论是什么原因，他们回归根本，解决问题，对吧？

And now they're in accord with themselves, right? And they're living through agency and gratitude. And they feel like, right, I can go back out there and I can till that land, I can get the whole out, I can make the plots. I'm going to put the seeds in, I'm going to nurture, like, I can go do that. And I can do it even what? Even though I was depressed, even though somebody assaulted me five months ago, even though I lost my job, even though, even though, even though, right? They overcome the even those, right?

现在他们与自己达成了一致，对吗？他们通过行动和感激之情来生活。他们觉得，对吗，我可以再出去，耕种那片土地，打造整个园地。我要把种子种下去，我要培育它们，我可以去做那些事情。即使是怎样呢？即使我曾经抑郁过，即使五个月前有人对我进行了袭击，即使我失去了工作，即使，即使，即使，对吗？他们克服了所有这些，对吗？

And the sense of agency tells them, right, I can go do that, right? And the sense of gratitude, no one who's miserable and now is in such an awful position about life because they were attacked or lost their job or something bad happened, whatever it may be, or they're lost in cynicism. There's no gratitude there. It's a gratitude for being in life, for having the capability of going back and planting seeds in that garden. That's the alliance between agency and gratitude, and then the person goes and does that, right?

而获得主动权的感觉告诉他们，是的，我可以去做那件事，对吗？而感激之情，则意味着那些不再痛苦、处境艰难的人，因为遭到攻击、失业或发生其他不好的事情而陷入到了这样糟糕的境地。无论是什么原因，或者他们陷入了愤世嫉俗的状态。在这里没有感激之情。感激之情是因为活着，在生活中有能力回到并在那个花园里播种。这就是主动权和感激之间的联盟，然后这个人去做那件事，对吗？

So think of what's going on there. They do this thing. They feel good about this thing. They can look out at the garden, feel some peace, right? Feel some contentment to them, be delighted by what they did. Remember how much they loved it before, how much it means to them. So, yes, that goodness comes. That goodness suffuses us. And it raises up the generative drive. That says, right, it's good. We breathe some life into it, right? Enough to get that garden done. Now, the generative drive is further fostered forward by the goodness the person feels.

所以想想那里正在发生的事情。他们做了这件事。他们对这件事感到很好。他们可以望着花园，感受一些宁静，对他们来说有些满足感，对他们所做的事情感到高兴。记住他们之前多么喜欢它，它对他们意味着多么重要。所以，是的，这种善良会降临。这种善良充盈了我们。它激发了创造动力。这意味着，对，它是好的。我们给予它一些生机，对吧？足够让花园完成。现在，这种创造动力通过个人的善感进一步培育。

So the example, the difference between the person who wants a garden feels terrible about themselves, they're not doing it, and it feels lousy every time they look out the window, and there they are looking out the window, right? The difference between that and having made a garden looking out the window at it is a night and day difference. And the person who's looking out the window at the garden that they build overcoming whatever was inside of them because they went and addressed it and proved to themselves that they could, that's what we're after in life, right? We all know this. It doesn't look like somebody levitating at the top of a mountain, right? That's what it looks like.

所以，举个例子，想要有一个花园的人，对自己感到糟糕，因为他们没有去实现这个愿望，每次他们望向窗外时都感觉很差劲，然后他们就在窗外看着。这和已经做好了一个花园，站在窗边欣赏它之间有天壤之别。那个看着他们建造的花园的人，克服了内心的困扰，因为他们去面对了它，并向自己证明他们可以做到，这就是我们在生活中追求的，对吧？我们都知道这一点。它不像有人在山顶上飘浮，对吧？其实就是这样的。

The person looking out the window at the garden and thinking about what they overcame to create the garden and seeing the goodness of it all. Yeah. Glad you said the word creating because it seems it's about creating things. It real tangible things, but that the process to get there is every bit as important as what's created. When you create knowledge, that's tangible, right? You create knowledge. Maybe that person looks down the road with beautiful flowers and has the same sense of goodness inside of them that you do when you're well, right? I just went and learned something.

那个望着花园的窗外、思考着自己在创造花园时所克服的困难，并看到一切美好的人。是的。很高兴你提到了创造这个词，因为它似乎是关于创造事物。创造真实的有形的事物，但达到目标的过程和所创造的东西一样重要。当你创造知识时，它是有形的，对吗？你创造知识。也许那个人看着美丽的花朵所在的道路，内心也有着和你在身体健康时一样的善意感。我刚刚去学了点东西。

As you described that, I'm thinking I certainly hope so because for me it's an incredible sense of satisfaction. And one that I enjoy so much that I almost don't want to look at it too much because to me it sits in this rare domain of perfect. It just feels so good and that I can get back there is very comforting to me. Right. And that's all of this. That it feels so good. That's what all this is. It's the generative drive. It's the gratitude. It's the contentment. It's like all that coming together.

据你的描述，我想，希望如此，因为对我来说，那是一种难以置信的满足感。我非常享受这种感觉，以至于我几乎不想过多思考它，因为对我来说，它处于完美的稀有境地。这种感觉真的太棒了，而且能够再次体验到它，对我来说非常安慰。没错，就是这样。所有的一切就是为了这种美好的感觉。这就是创造的动力。这是感激之情。这是满足感。就像所有这些因素的融合。

And it's interesting. We could contrast that to when you talked about a repeated cycle that's negative, right? Then you're not feeling that, right? So think about the learning that can come from it. Right? That you can achieve this and feel this and be in this state in one aspect of your life.

而且这很有趣。我们可以将它与你谈到的一种负面重复循环进行对比，对吧？然后你就不会有那种感觉了，对吧？所以想一想从中可以学到什么。对吧？你可以在生活的某个方面实现这一点，感受到这一点，并处于这种状态中。

Like, what can you learn from that to bring to the other place? And more, yes, that's important. It's more, it's often starting with what's going on in the place that's not doing well. Right? Like is it why the repetition? Right? So this is how we can have what we're seeking in parts of our lives, even if we don't in others. But if we can have it in parts of our lives, we can have it in others too. And we can become role models for ourselves. We can learn from ourselves. We can learn from what brings the good, how to raise up the things that about us in our lives and aren't there yet.

从中可以学到什么，然后带到另一个地方呢？而且，还有更重要的是，通常是从那个不好的地方开始的。对吧？这就是我们在生活中部分寻求的方式，即使在其他方面没有。但是，如果我们能在生活的某些方面拥有它，我们也可以在其他方面拥有它。我们可以成为自己的榜样。我们可以从自身学习。我们可以从那些带来好处的事物中学习如何提升我们生活中尚未达到的方面。

I often get the question from the general public, how can I stop overthinking? You know, I have to imagine based on the fact that I get that question so often that there are a great number of people who sense their own generative drive. What are your thoughts on that? Thinking can be wonderful if we're using thinking to learn, right? To figure things out. So when thinking is doing that, thinking is great. But a lot of thinking is just in the service of something else, right? And a lot of thinking works against us.

常常有公众向我提问，怎么才能停止过度思考呢？你知道，根据我经常被问到这个问题的事实，我可以想象有很多人感到他们自己内心的创造力。你对此有何想法？思考是很棒的，当我们用它来学习，理清问题的时候。所以当思考能够做到这一点时，它是伟大的。但很多时候我们的思考只是为了其他事情服务，对我们起到了反作用。

So imagine the person making the garden, right? The person has to think about it. If you think about what seeds to make, they have to think about where the tools are. They have to think about what they're doing, when they're planting, when they're watering. There's a lot to do, but the beauty of it isn't in the thinking, right? The thinking is in the service of what is generative, right? So that's a different kind. It's just thinking in the service of something. But a lot of our thinking is that, you know, it's planning, it's projecting. We tend to glorify the planning and the projecting. And it can be great when we're learning, when we're figuring things out. But a lot of that is there so that we can do the things that are good for us to do, right? The planning and the projecting around making the garden where the point of it is the garden. It's not the thinking part, right?

所以想象一下那个打造花园的人，对吧？那个人必须思考。如果你考虑要种什么种子，他们必须想想工具在哪里。他们必须考虑自己在做什么，何时进行种植，何时浇水。有很多事情要做，但其中的美不在于思考，对吧？思考是为了创造力而服务的，对吧？这是一种不同的思考方式。它只是为了某个目的而思考。但我们很多时候的思考是在计划、预测。我们倾向于赞美计划和预测。当我们学习、摸索事物时，这可能很棒。但很大一部分思考是为了我们能够做好自己应该做的事情，对吧？围绕着打造花园的计划和预测，重点是花园本身，而不是思考部分，对吧？

We can also use thinking against us. So much thinking is repetitive and not just unproductive but harmful, right? That person who's looking out the window at the garden may be thinking. I mean, sometimes they're just pauses in our thinking. But, you know, a lot of times a person must be thinking. And what often goes on there is just repetitive, negative thinking. It's, you know, gosh, I used to have a garden. I remember when that was beautiful or, you know, remember before such and such a person passed away and then we stopped making the garden or I'll never be able to make a garden again or gosh, it's too much. You know, it's just something that's negative and unproductive. I mean, what else is there to think? If the person's actually looking out the window at the garden, right, and they're in this sort of stuck state, they're not in a generative state, then the thinking becomes repetitive and it furthers all the negative, right? It's just the more we further the negative, the more we take. If there's a four-lane highway that we want to atrophy, let's not make it into a six-lane highway, you know?

我们也可以利用思考来对抗自己。那么多的思考是重复的，不仅没有生产力，而且有害，对吗？那个望着花园的人可能在思考。我的意思是，有时候他们只是在我们思考中的停顿。但是，你知道的，很多时候一个人一定在思考。而那里经常发生的只是重复的、消极的思考。比如说，天哪，我以前有一个花园。我还记得那时候有多美，或者，记得那个人去世后我们停止了打理花园，或者我再也不能有个花园了，天哪，这太糟糕了。你知道，只是一些消极无生产力的东西。我的意思是，还有别的可以思考的吗？如果一个人实际上是在望着窗外的花园，对吗，并在一种停滞状态中，而不是一种创造性的状态，那么思考就变得重复，进一步加剧了所有的消极。我们进一步加剧消极，就会越来越失去。如果我们想让一个我们希望减弱的四车道公路萎缩，那就不要让它变成六车道公路，你知道吗？

But we do that when we have this repetitive thinking which then can evolve into the narratives, the things that we say to ourselves, right? So, you know, thinking is wonderful. It's wonderful, but it can also just sub-serve something else and it can also be used against us. So, what we're talking about here doesn't glorify thinking. I mean, it does. If it's in the service of the generative drive, but it doesn't in and of itself.

但是当我们有这种重复性的思维时，我们就会进入叙事状态，也就是我们对自己说的那些话，对吧？所以，你知道，思考是很棒的。真的很棒，但它也可以只是为了其他目的而存在，甚至可以被用来对付我们自己。所以，我们在这里讨论的并不是赞美思考。也是吧。如果它是为了创造性的驱动服务的话，它确实是。但它本身并不是这样。

I think many people set a time, say, you know, 9.30 a.m. or 10 a.m. when they are going to begin doing something that they want to do or know they should do, that's a little bit challenging. It could be exercised, could be cognitively demanding work. And then 10 o'clock rolls around and they say, okay, 10.15. And they're distracted by often social media texting. These days, I think those are the main culprits, really. I don't know too many people that get distracted by exercise and reading books. Some do and doing complex puzzles or math, but social media is a little bit like mental chewing gum, except that I would add to that, that's the kind of chewing gum that really does state the appetite in a way that prevents you from eating nutritious food, unless used correctly.

我认为很多人会设定一个时间，比如说早上九点半或十点，他们会在这个时间开始做一些他们想做或知道应该做的事情，这些事情可能会有一些挑战性。可以是锻炼，也可以是需要认知能力的工作。然后十点钟到了，他们会说，好吧，十点一刻开始。然后他们常常会被社交媒体或短信所分心。现如今，我认为这些是主要的干扰源。我不认识太多被锻炼和读书所分心的人。当然有些人也会被复杂的谜题或数学问题所分心，但社交媒体就像一种精神口香糖，除了我要补充的是，这种口香糖确实会给食欲制造饱足感，使你无法摄取有营养的食物，除非正确使用。

And then people feel bad about themselves because the whole morning went by. And then they didn't know it's noon, then they required some food like any typical person, they eat, then they might need a little nap for the gross perandial dip in energy. And then the afternoon and then it goes on and on. I mean, I hear this all the time. I've experienced this before, so I'm not immune to this myself. That's why I try and capture that early wave of energy, whatever it might be, adrenaline, nor adrenaline, some combination. The way you describe thinking and its potential relationship to generative drive, it seems to me it's so important that we capture those moments of potential creation, however small the action might be to remind ourselves that we are capable of moving things from point A to point B. Because in the description I just gave of the person that lets the morning escape, there's really no external barrier except these distractions, but differently all the tools exist within most all of us to be able to create what we want to create or at least to create something. And yet many, many people just don't fulfill that right that they were and that we've all been given.

然后人们因为整个早上过去而感到不满。然后他们不知道已经到了中午，像任何普通人一样，他们需要一些食物，然后他们可能会因为能量下降而需要小睡一会儿。然后是下午，接下来持续不断。我是说，我经常听到这样的事情。我以前也有过这种经历，所以我自己也不能幸免。这就是为什么我努力抓住早期的能量浪潮，无论它是肾上腺素、去肾上腺素还是其他什么的组合。从你描述的思考方式及其与创造驱动力的潜在关系来看，对我来说，抓住那些潜在创造的时刻非常重要，无论行动的大小如何，只要提醒自己我们有能力将事情从A点移到B点。因为在我刚才描述的那个让早晨溜走的人的情况中，除了这些干扰，实际上没有外部的障碍，但在我们大多数人身上，我们都拥有能够创造我们想要的东西，或者至少创造一些东西的工具。然而，很多很多人都没有实现他们拥有的这个权利，也是我们所共有的权利。

Right. So let's think about what's going on there. So the person that I'm going to exercise at 10 o'clock, right, now push it back to 10.15 and they do something on social media or they push it back to 10.30, it'll be okay, I'll get it all in. What they're doing is they're engaging in unhealthy defense mechanisms, right. So if we go back to the pillars, right, the structure of self, the function of self, there may be other reasons for it, but let's just identify the unhealthy defenses of avoidance and rationalization, right. And then there's no thinking going on about that, right. They're just unconscious processes and you kick it down, you know, you kick it down the clock 15 minutes, right. They're not thinking about it.

对。所以我们来思考一下发生了什么。那么，那个我打算在十点锻炼的人，对吧，现在把时间推迟到十点十五分，然后他们在社交媒体上做些事情，或者把时间再推迟到十点三十分，这样也没关系，我还是能完成所有的事情。他们这样做是在使用不健康的防御机制。所以如果我们回到自我之柱，自我之结构和功能，可能还有其他原因，但我们先来识别一下不健康的回避和合理化防御机制吧。然后并没有对此进行深思熟虑。他们只是无意识地处理这些事情，把时间往后拖延了15分钟，不去思考。

Thinking then is observing something different, right. The thinking is observing the avoidance. If I'm going to go look on something, read a couple of things, reply, you know, I'm thinking, I'm planning, right, I got to get the, maybe got to get the phone out, I got to tap, you know, my code into it, I got to go to a certain website. Like we're doing something that we're thinking about it. I think about what I'm going to write back, but the thinking is all in the service of the unhealthy defenses, right. So then by understanding ourselves better, we can bring that to a healthier place.

思考就是观察到不同的事物，对吧。思考就是观察到逃避行为。如果我要去寻找某些东西，阅读一些东西，回复一下，你知道，我正在思考，我在计划，对吧，我得拿出手机，输入密码，打开某个网站。我们在做一些我们在思考的事情。我考虑着我将要回复什么，但这种思考都是为了不健康的防御机制服务的，对吧。所以，通过更好地了解自己，我们可以将其带到一个更健康的状态。

Wow. By actually using thinking for what helps us, right. So let's think of like, what, okay, what's going, let's say if you're doing that, okay, what's going on when you're doing that, right. So you, you know, you really want to exercise, right. Like it's not easy to exercise. And sometimes there's maybe just problem solving. Are you doing a thing you like? Maybe something you like more, there's lower barrier, et cetera. But let's say we're just working within the psychological, right. Then you can come at that a couple of ways like, oh, I don't want to do that thing. That thing's hard, right. I mean, I think that about things in my life sometimes and it always makes me happy, makes me weighty and unhappy, right. I may as well put 20 pound weights on either side of me, right. I mean, I can look at it that way, right.

哇，通过实际思考有助于我们的事情。所以让我们来考虑一下，如果你正在这么做，发生了什么，对吗？你可能真的想要锻炼，对吧？但是锻炼并不容易。有时候可能只是问题解决。你在做一件你喜欢的事情吗？也许有更容易的选择等等。但是让我们在心理上先思考一下。你可以用几种方式来看待这个问题，比如说：哦，我不想做那件事，那件事很难，对吧。有时候我也会这样想，但是这总是让我感到沉重和不快乐，对吗？这就好像在我两边分别加上20磅的负重一样，对吧。我可以这样看待它，对吧。

Or there's a different way of looking at it that actually fits much better, which is like I'm not daunted by doing difficult things. And I can get out there and apply myself. And you know, when I feel good about that, when I do difficult things, it's like part of my identity, right. It's like part of how I see myself.

或者还有一种不同的观点，实际上更贴切，就是我并不害怕做困难的事情。我可以勇往直前，全身心投入。当我对自己做的困难事情感到满意时，这就像是我的一部分，对吧。就像是我对自己的看法的一部分。

So right, I'm going to go do this thing and I'm going to feel good about it. And isn't it amazing that I get to do it, right. Like, look here, I am. I'm alive. I'm healthy, right. I can go do this thing. My health is good, but I want to make it better, right. Like, working out or I'm at least alive. And if I lose a little bit of weight, I'll feel healthier. Like, come on, this is good, right.

是的，我要去做这件事，我会对此感到满意。而且能够做这件事真是太棒了，是吧。看看这里，我在这里，我活着，我健康，对吧。我能够去做这件事是因为我的健康状况很好，但是我想让它更好，对吧。像锻炼身体或者至少我还活着。而且如果我能减轻一点体重，我会感觉更健康，你说对吧。这是挺好的，是吧。

And then I'll feel different about that, right. And like, truth is one or the other. It's like, oh, both can be true. Now, what will be true is what you choose, right. And if you choose the negative, then yes, the unhealthy defense is perpetuated. And even if you get yourself to do it today, it's harder to do it tomorrow. That's why sometimes I'll say to a person, like, just take a look at it and decide if you want to do it or not. If you don't want to exercise, just decide you don't, right.

然后我对那个会有不同的感觉，对吧。就像，事实只能是一种。就好像，哦，两种都可能是真的。现在，真相将取决于你的选择，对吧。如果你选择负面的，那么不健康的防御机制就会持续存在。即使你今天能够做到，明天也会更难。所以有时候我会对一个人说，只要简单看一看，决定是否想要做它。如果你不想锻炼，就决定不要做，对吧。

And then, okay, there's a trade-off for everything. Maybe you're okay with the trade-off, right. But what am I trying to do there, right, is bring to consciousness that that person is making a choice, right. Do you want to do it? If you want to do it, if you want to do it, it's great to just do it, right. And if you don't, it's great to not do it. At least you're being honest and clear with yourself and you're not wasting all that time when you keep kicking it 15 minutes down the, you know, down the clock, you know, until it's too late. Does that make sense?

然后，好的，每件事都有取舍。也许你对这个取舍感到满意，对吧。但我的目的是让他们意识到正在做出选择。你想做吗？如果你想做，那就做吧，太好了。如果你不想做，那也很好，至少你对自己诚实且明确，而且你不会浪费时间一直推迟，一直延迟到最后都来不及。这有意义吗？

I think how the structure here really does, it works because it's pulling together what we know from the biology to the psychology of like how to understand ourselves and how to understand when things aren't the way we want them to be so that we can make them the way we want them to be. It's not magic. It's following the sort of mathematical aspects of, you know, going to the factors, assessing them, making changes. And then, of course, we see the outcome we want to see.

我认为这里的结构真的很有效，因为它整合了我们从生物学到心理学的知识，帮助我们理解自己，理解当事物并不如我们所希望时如何应对，以便我们能够将其变得符合我们的期望。这不是魔法，而是按照数学的方法，考虑各种因素，评估它们，做出改变。然后，当然，我们会看到我们想要看到的结果。

The way you describe it does make sense. And I appreciate it because I think ultimately it seems to ratchet back to actions, to verbs, to bring us to these feeling states that, you know, I think are what people are seeking, you know, peace, contentment, delight, you know, through agency, gratitude as active terms. Right. I mean, there's, you know, I think these are universal desires. And again, you're providing this wonderful roadmap for people to arrive there. Thank you.

你的描述听起来很有道理，我欣赏这种观点，因为从根本上来说，它似乎将我们带回到行动、动词的层面，让我们达到人们所追求的感受状态，你知道的，平静、满足、喜悦，通过主动的行动态度来实现，比如感激。对，我觉得这些是普遍的欲望。而你正在提供这个了不起的指南，让人们能够达到这些状态。谢谢你。

I do have a question about some of the underpinnings of generative drive. In particular, this notion of aggressive drive. I've known people that seem to have a lot of this. They just have a lot of get up and go or a lot of drive to create in the world or to figure things out. They often do create great lives for themselves in work and relationship, etc. I've also observed that these people often don't have the best relationship to themselves or that they run up against barriers or, frankly, sometimes straight into brick walls in certain domains of their life, perhaps as a consequence of having too much of this generative or aggressive drive.

我对生成驱力的一些基础问题有疑问。尤其是侵略性驱力的概念。我认识的一些人似乎有很多这种驱力。他们非常有进取心，或者对创造和解决问题有很强的动力。他们通常在工作和关系等方面创造了美好的生活。然而，我也观察到这些人往往与自己的关系不太好，或者在某些领域遇到了障碍，有时甚至撞在了墙上，可能是因为他们过多地追求这种生成或侵略性驱力的缘故。

And at the same time, I know that there are people in the world, many, that have, of what seems to be a low generative drive. I don't know if that's the case or not, but that they seem to have a hard time engaging like in doing things. Often you get the impression that they somewhat are completely given up. Life is just too hard. Or sometimes it's even more subtle. I know someone who they like their job, but they've come to the place that it's just work. It's a paycheck and that might be enough. But they're always talking about it. So I have to assume that it's not enough. They aren't able to slot their work into one domain and just focus on the other aspects of their life that are going well. It doesn't compensate for them to think about the other aspects of their life.

同时，我知道世界上有很多人，看起来他们的生殖驱力似乎很低。我不知道是否事实如此，但他们似乎很难参与做事情。经常给人的印象是他们有些放弃了。生活太难了。或者有时更微妙一些。我认识一个人，他们喜欢自己的工作，但他们已经到了只是工作的地步。那只是为了拿薪水而已，可能够了。但他们总是谈论着这个。所以我不得不假设这还不够。他们无法将工作划分到一领域，然后专注于生活中其他方面的好处。对他们来说，考虑生活的其他方面并不能弥补他们的心理落差。

So is there a continuum of generative drives that exist in us? Are these intrinsic? I realize there are a near infinite number of conditions that could give rise to one or the other. It could be hardwired. It could be nature. It could be nurture. But what is the relationship between, I want to say, arousal or potential for arousal and aggressive drive and these things that we're seeking? Yeah.

那么，在我们内在是否存在一种连续的生发动力呢？这些动力是否与我们内在特有？我意识到有无限多的条件可能引发一种或另一种动力。这可能是固有的。这可能是天性。这可能是后天培养的。但是，我想知道，唤起感或唤起的潜力与攻击性动力以及我们所追求的事物之间的关系是怎样的呢？是的。

So if it's okay, I'd like to start like the first principles of the drives. So the theory of drives came about when people were observing very closely like human beings and human behavior, individuals, societies, cultures, and identifying that you can boil a lot of things down to a drive that we call aggressive. There's something to impose myself out there on the world around me. It explains a lot of what people do.

所以如果可以的话，我想从驱动力的基本原则开始。驱动力理论起源于人们对人类及其行为、个体、社会、文化进行密切观察，并发现很多事物可以归结为一种我们称之为攻击性的驱动力。这种驱动力意味着我要在世界上展现自己。它解释了人们的很多行为。

And then the other identified drive was pleasure, so enjoyment, even relief of unpleasantness. You can describe a lot of human behavior and that to understand what's going on inside of us that means that we're here, right?

然后，另一个被确定的心理驱动是愉悦、享乐，甚至是对不愉快的解脱感。通过描绘很多人类行为，我们能理解我们内心正在经历的事情，这意味着我们存在于此，对吗？

You see that through the lens of aggressive and pleasure drives and like that's the answer to it, to how we survive. But I think that is not the answer to it, that if it were just aggressive drives and pleasure drives, there's not a value system around that. Like, you know, somebody who's very industrious can build or destroy, right? And we see this in historical figures. Like being very intelligent and very industriousness has nothing to do with whether you're building or destroying, right?

你通过侵略性和欲望的视角看待一切，似乎这是我们生存的答案。但我认为事实并非如此。如果只是侵略性和欲望的驱动，就没有价值系统存在。就好像，你知道，一个非常勤奋的人可以建设或者摧毁，对吧？我们在历史人物身上看到了这一点。像聪明和勤劳与建设或摧毁没有关系。

So if it were just an aggressive drive and a pleasure drive, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, right? Because the species would have not have survived, right? So if you believe that and I believe that, then you look for something else. You see, maybe we looked and we found two things and there are more things, right? And then we start thinking about learning for learning sake, altruism, things that are not explained, right?

如果只是因为攻击和享乐驱动，那我们就不会有这个对话了，对吧？因为这个物种不会存活下来，对吧？所以如果你相信这一点，我也相信这一点，那我们就要寻找其他东西。你看，也许我们已经找到了两个事物，还有更多的事物，对吧？然后我们开始思考学习的目的，利他主义，这些都无法解释的事物，对吧？

Unless there's a self-referential, will you feel good doing something for someone else? So therefore, it's selfish. Like, there's a lot of gyrations around that. If you really observe humans, you do see altruism. You see learning for learning's sake. You see people being benign when everything about a situation would say that they could would or should under society's rules not be benign, right?

除非涉及到自我引用，否则你为他人做事情是否会感到快乐？因此，这是自私的。就像围绕这个问题有很多转折一样。如果你真正观察人类，你会看到无私的表现。你会看到为了求知而学习。你会看到在一切情况下都应该或不应该善意对待的情况下，人们表现得非常仁慈，对吗？

And then we start to see that there is another drive. That how do you explain that we're here? Yeah, aggression, pleasure, and generativeness, or generative drive. The drive to make things better. That's why we build more than we destroy. We destroy a lot, right? But we build more than we destroy. Otherwise, we wouldn't have clothes on our backs, let alone have the technology to sit here and to be able to do this. So it's the generative drive that is most realized in the healthy person, right? And the healthy person has the strong generative drive.

然后我们开始意识到还有另一种动力。那就是如何解释我们存在的原因呢？是的，侵略、快乐和创造性，或者说生成的动力。这是一种让事物变得更好的动力。这就是为什么我们建设的多于我们破坏的原因。我们确实破坏了很多，对吧？但我们建设的比我们破坏的多。否则，我们就没有衣服穿了，更别提有技术坐在这里做这件事了。因此，在健康的人身上最能体现的是生成的动力，而且健康的人拥有强大的生成动力。

Now, as you said, there are other factors, and this is sort of what you were asking about. They're probably, they're natural levels of aggression or pleasure-seeking or generativeness that differ across people, right? Because we're a product of, you know, the complexity of our genetics and, you know, all the complexities of nature and nurture. So we're going to get to a place where some of us have more, some of us have less, right?

现在，正如你所说，还有其他因素，这正是你所问的问题。它们可能是不同人之间天生的攻击性、追求快乐或创造力的自然水平，对吗？因为我们是基因复杂性和自然与培养的复杂性的产物。所以我们会发现，有些人拥有更多，有些人拥有更少，对吗？

The conclusion, though, is for all of us, the generative drive being at the helm is what leads us to live good lives, right? To live to the things that we aspire to the peace and contentment, right? So we want the generative drive to rule the day, right? Whether a person is studying neuroscience or growing gardens, right? The importance is about being generative. Then aggression and pleasure can subserve the generative drive, right?

然而，总的来说，对于我们所有人来说，驱动我们过上美好生活的是主导地位的生成驱动力，对吗？过上我们渴望的和平与满足的生活，对吗？所以我们希望生成驱动力主导一天，对吗？不论一个人是在研究神经科学还是在种花园，重要的是要具有生成力。然后，攻击性和快乐可以促进生成驱动力，对吗？

And then the question you're asking, I think, which is, well, what if there's too much aggression, too little aggression, right? Or too much pleasure-seeking, too little pleasure-seeking. That's when we can see problems, right? And the problems then lead us back to the pillars to figure out the problems.

然后你问的问题，我认为是，如果有过多的侵略，或是过少的侵略，对吗？或者过多的寻求快乐，或是过少的寻求快乐。这就是我们所看到的问题所在，对吗？这些问题会让我们回到基本原则去解决问题。

So too much aggression ultimately becomes envy, right? Too much aggression means, like, I want, I'm on and pose myself on the world around me more than I can, more than is reasonable, more than I can do without impinging upon others, right? That what you end up doing is taking from others, right? Too much aggression becomes destructive, right? Maybe a person destroys, tear something down, right? Things from others says that the nasty comment when it wasn't necessary and now everyone feels bad, right? That too much aggression becomes envy, right? And envy is destructive, right?

所以过多的攻击性最终会变成嫉妒，对吗？过多的攻击性意味着，就像是我想要展现自己超过我能力和合理范围以及不伤害他人的能力，对吗？最终你所做的是从他人那里夺取东西，对吗？过多的攻击性会变得具有破坏性，对吗？也许一个人会摧毁、拆毁某些东西，对吗？向他人发表恶意评论，而这并非必要之举，现在每个人都感到糟糕，对吗？过多的攻击性会转变成嫉妒，对吗？而嫉妒具有破坏性，对吗？

The same thing with too much pleasure-seeking. If I say, okay, I want my fair share of pleasure and relief of distress and all that, but if I rely on that too much, right, we're now instead of aggression eclipsing the generative drive. And now it's pleasure eclipsing the generative drive. Then I want more pleasure and more pleasure and more pleasure and how long before I want your pleasure, right? So then it's not healthy, right? What it becomes is envious, right? It becomes destructive because now then I become covetous of your pleasure or if I can't get it but I could bring you down, then I'll feel better about myself. That's envy, right?

同样的事情也是一样，追求过多的快乐也是如此。如果我说，好吧，我想要我公正的享受快乐，缓解痛苦等等，但如果我过于依赖这种快乐，是不是现在挑战了自我创造的动力。现在是快乐挑战了自我创造的动力。然后我会渴望更多的快乐、更多的快乐、还有更多的快乐，我会在多久之后渴望你的快乐？所以这样是不健康的，对吗？它变成了嫉妒，对吗？它变得具有破坏性，因为那时我会垂涎于你的快乐，如果我得不到它，我只想让你失去它，这样我就会感觉更好。这就是嫉妒，对吗？

So too much aggression eclipsing the generative drive, too much of pleasure-seeking, pleasure-drive, eclipsing the generative drive, and we end up in places of envy and envy is destructive and now we're in trouble.

过多的攻击性掩盖了创造性驱动力，过多的追求快乐和享受掩盖了创造性驱动力，我们最终陷入嫉妒的境地，而嫉妒是具有破坏性的，现在我们陷入了麻烦中。

I've never thought before about the relationship between aggression, pleasure, and envy, but as you're describing it, it comes to mind the movie American Psycho, where Christian Bale plays this basically an 80s yuppie working in finance in New York. And for anyone that's seen it can only be described as a violent parody of 80s yuppie culture and it's meant to be- It's dark a comedy as there's going to be here.

我之前从未考虑过攻击、快乐和嫉妒之间的关系，但在你描述时，我忍不住想起了《美国精神病人》这部电影。克里斯蒂安·贝尔在片中扮演一个在纽约金融业工作的80年代年轻人。对于看过这部电影的人来说，它只能被描述为对80年代金领文化的暴力模仿，而且它的本意就是要成为一部黑色喜剧。

Yeah, it's dark a comedy as it could be and don't let your young children watch it because it's very gruesome and like very sexual. But the aggressive features within the character that Bale plays are immediately apparent in the movie, like violent aggression, sexual aggression, seeking money, seeking wealth, all the time, a narcissism to an obsession with everything from his skincare routine to his eight-pack abs and it's ridiculous. But also an interesting window into some milder forms of those features that still exist in many people today, right?

是的，这部电影是一部黑暗喜剧，不适合年幼的孩子观看，因为其中包含了很多残忍和性的内容。不过，主演克里斯蒂安·贝尔所扮演的角色中表现出的具有攻击性的特征在电影中很明显，比如暴力攻击、性侵犯、追逐金钱和财富等等。他还表现出一种自恋的特质，对自己的护肤程序、八块腹肌等等着迷，这是荒谬的。但同时，这也揭示出了今天许多人身上存在的一些较为温和的这些特征，是不是很有意思呢？

But the envy component starts to reveal itself a little bit later into the movie where the scene I recall is one around where someone hands him a business card and then you hear the narrative in his own mind about how much nicer that guy's business card has been his and how he hates him so much. He ends up killing the guy in very violent and sadistic fashion. That's aggression over generative. That's right. Right. And so, and the whole movie is about this one aspect of culture at that time, his ability to impose their will on everyone at their whim. You know, basically, Bale just does whatever the hell he wants at any point, goes returns videotapes in between. And there's so much woven into it and that is relevant and so much that's woven into it that's just purely for people's kind of sick entertainment.

但是嫉妒的成分稍晚才开始显露出来，我记得有一个场景是有人递给他一个名片，然后你听到他自己心里的解说，关于那个人的名片比他好多了，他对那个人非常讨厌。他以非常暴力和变态的方式杀害了那个人。这是攻击性的超越。没错。对，整部电影就是关于当时文化的一个方面，他们可以按照自己的意愿对每个人施加自己的意愿。你知道，基本上，贝尔只是在任何时候都随心所欲地做任何他想做的事情，中间还去还录像带。这部电影中编织了很多相关的元素，其中很多都是为了人们的变态娱乐而编织进去的。

But that, I believe it was Brent Easton Ellis that wrote that and you know, is tapping into the aggression component, the pleasure component, but the envy component is really what resonates as you come to the end of the movie. It's like there's no satisfying this guy. He could kill or sleep with as many people as he wants in the movie and he can have as much wealth as he wants. He can have entire buildings. In fact, I think he's living in an entire building at some point. He takes over people's apartments after he kills them. It's wild and disgusting.

但是，我相信是布伦特·伊斯顿·埃利斯写的，他触及到了侵略性、愉悦性，但是最能引起共鸣的是嫉妒的元素，当你到了电影的结尾时。就像这个人是无法满足的。电影里，他可以杀死或与任意多的人睡觉，他可以拥有任意多的财富。他可以拥有整栋楼，实际上，我想他在某个时候是住在整栋楼里的。他在杀死人之后还能接管他们的公寓。这太疯狂和令人作呕了。

But it really speaks to the extent to which envy is woven into aggression and pleasure seeking and it's not something that had really sunk in for me until you describe it now. Because I think for most people, they imagine, okay, when somebody has X number of millions or billions of dollars that they'll reach this place of peace, contentment and delight, right? They'll have enough. And in the movie Wall Street, there's that one scene where someone says, you know, what's your number? Like at what point is it enough? And the guy says more. That says all sorts of things about the dopaminergic system of reward systems in the brain, et cetera. But I think it says a lot more about envy. Absolutely. And just what a pit of despair envy is for everybody involved. Right. Right.

但这真的对嫉妒程度表达了一种程度，它融入了攻击和追求快乐，直到你现在描述它我才真正明白。因为我认为对于大多数人来说，他们会想象，好吧，当有人有着数百万或数十亿美元时，他们将达到平静、满足和喜悦的境地，对吗？他们会有足够的了。在电影《华尔街》中，有一个场景，有人问，你的目标是多少？达到什么程度就可以了？那个人说更多。这表明了大脑多巴胺系统的奖励系统等方面的各种事情。但我认为这更多地表达了嫉妒。绝对如此。以及嫉妒对所有参与者所带来的绝望深渊。是的。

Look, envy may not be the root of all evil, but envy plus natural disasters may be. So much evil and destruction arises from envy. And it may be that it's at the root of all of it. And we so underappreciate that. We so underappreciate why people are destructive, right? Which is why the roots aren't always in trauma, but a significant aspect of where envy arises from can often be trauma, creating a sense of guilt and shame and vulnerability. But wherever a person may come by it, and it's a larger discussion of envy and where it may come from, is it drives destruction. And if the aggressive drive is greater than the generative drive or if the pleasure drive is greater than the generative drive or if both are greater than the generative drive, it will drive destruction. And that destruction, the vast majority of times, if you look deep enough, you find at its roots envy, that envy may arise from guilt and shame within the person. But as soon as it becomes about another, right, I feel guilt and shame and inadequacy inside of me. But then I feel envy of those around me. It drives the vast majority of destruction.

你看，嫉妒可能并非一切邪恶的根源，但嫉妒再加上自然灾害可能会是如此。嫉妒产生了如此多的邪恶和破坏。或许嫉妒正是一切邪恶的根源。我们对此太过低估了。我们太低估人们为什么会有破坏性行为，对吧？这就是为什么原因不总是创伤，但嫉妒往往来自于创伤，制造出一种罪恶感、羞耻感和脆弱感。但无论一个人是如何获得嫉妒，以及嫉妒来自哪里，这都是一个更大的讨论，它推动了破坏。如果攻击性驱动胜于生成性驱动，或者快乐驱动胜于生成性驱动，或者两者都胜于生成性驱动，它将推动破坏。而大部分情况下，这种破坏，如果你深入挖掘，你会发现它的根源在于嫉妒，这种嫉妒可能源自个人内心的罪恶感和羞耻感。但一旦它与他人有关，对吧，我感到内心的罪恶感和羞耻感和不足感，然后我对周围的人感到嫉妒。这推动了绝大多数的破坏行为。

Do you think that's what's happening when we see these sadly ever more frequent examples of active shooters and school shootings, things of that sort? Yes. There are other people who have life, right? And that person doesn't feel that they do. So they want to go and take it away from them. Right? That's why as long as we have human tribulation and a lot of guns, it's going to happen. It's a logical conclusion of enough people being in places of despair and how envy can be cultivated within us and then ultimately how it blinds people, it creates such a desire for destruction that then people will take life away from others. And often to be able to sometimes take their own life, which I think really brings to the forefront, that that person doesn't feel that they have a life, certainly not a life worth preserving. So they're then going to take the lives of others. And I think we're seeing that is as stark a portrait of where envy can lead, I think, as we can find on a one person basis, we can go, we can look at wars and their destruction on a societal basis. But I think that's the ultimate in understanding where envy can drive a person.

你认为当我们看到这些越来越频繁的主动枪击和校园枪击的例子时，这就是正在发生的事情吗？是的。还有其他人有着自己的生活，对吗？而那个人觉得自己并没有生活。所以他们想要去剥夺别人的生活。对吗？这就是为什么只要我们有人类的痛苦和很多枪支，这样的事情就会发生。这是足够多的人处于绝望之地，以及我们内心如何培养嫉妒，以及最终如何使人们盲目，产生了这样的毁灭欲望，进而剥夺他人的生命的一个逻辑结论。而且通常为了有时也能剥夺自己的生命，我认为这真正凸显出那个人觉得自己没有生命，肯定不值得保留。所以他们会剥夺别人的生命。我认为我们正在看到，这是一个多么明显的嫉妒可能导致的结果，我认为我们可以在个人层面上找到一个这样的形象，我们可以去看战争以及在社会层面上的破坏。但我认为这是理解嫉妒如何驱使一个人的最终境地。

What about the other end of the spectrum when aggression and pleasure seeking are too low? The other side of the spectrum is demoralization. So it's a very, very low aggression, so low self-assertion, low agency, there comes a place where the person is not then imposing themselves or believing that they can in much of any way on the outside world. And that creates a sense of isolation, understandably, a sense of powerlessness and vulnerability and isolation. And that then becomes demoralizing, which is not the same as depression. I mean, we know depression is a, there's a neurochemical imbalance, right? Whether that imbalance came purely biologically or came psychologically or because of external events, there's a neurochemical imbalance. Here, we're not talking about an illness state as identified by modern psychiatry. There's not a number in the book of diagnoses that goes along with being demoralized, right? Why? Because it's a state that humans can be in and too low of an aggressive drive, right? And all the things that come of that, it's isolating and it's demoralizing.

当进攻性和寻求快乐的倾向过低时，谱的另一端会发生什么呢？谱的另一端就是挫败感。这是一种非常非常弱的进攻性，缺乏自我主张和能动性，这时候人们不再试图强加自己，也不相信自己可以对外界产生任何影响。这会导致一种理所当然的孤立感、无力感和脆弱感。这最终变成了挫败感，而它与抑郁不同。我的意思是，我们知道抑郁是一种神经化学失衡，对吧？无论这种失衡是纯粹出于生物性原因、心理原因还是外部事件造成的，都会产生神经化学失衡。在这里，我们并不是在讨论现代精神病学所识别的疾病状态。在诊断手册中，并没有针对挫败感的疾病编号，对吧？为什么呢？因为这是一种人类可能处于的状态，过低的攻击驱动力会导致孤立和挫败感等问题。

The same with too low of a pleasure drive. So an example that may be relatable is to some people is knowing someone who has had a couple of really bad breakups and then says, oh, I'm done with that. There's no more romance. I'm going to be single, right? And you know, like that person has a drive in them. Like, you know, they're an interconnected person. Like they want romance. So these are things that are important to them, but they make a decision. I'm not going to have that in my life. What would be called in some psychodynamic sense is inviting death into life, a little bit of death by swearing off something that the person has a drive towards, right? The pleasure drive of companionship and of romance, right? That then becomes demoralizing as well. So sure, those things, demoralization can predispose to depression, but demoralization is a thing in and of itself where then there's a sense of hopelessness, there's a sense of, you know, the goodness then is inaccessible anymore. And that's the other side of envy.

同样的情况也适用于欲望过低。一个可能会引起共鸣的例子是认识一个经历了几次糟糕分手的人，然后他们说，哦，我对感情收手了，不再有浪漫了，我要单身，对吧？你知道，就像这个人内心有一股驱动力，他们渴望互相联系，他们想要浪漫。所以这些对他们来说是重要的事情，但他们做了一个决定，就是不会在我的生活中有这些。从某种心理动力学意义上来说，这就是将死亡引入生活，放弃了一个人有动力追求的事物，对吧？伴侣关系和浪漫的快乐驱动。然后这也会变得令人意志消沉。当然，这些事情会导致情绪低落，但意志消沉本身也是一个独立的概念，然后就会有一种绝望感，感觉到善良再也无法触及。这就是嫉妒的另一面。

Even low levels of aggression and the resulting demoralization be coupled with high levels of pleasure seeking. So I'm thinking about the person that is like very overweight, clearly headed for health issues if they don't already have them. And perhaps would like to remove that weight, would like to feel more vigorous, doesn't want type two diabetes and an early death. But at some level, they've given up. But because the pleasure of eating is something they really enjoy. They really love it. And yet it has a component to it in their life where they either self-soothe with it or they're just trying to hit baseline levels of satisfaction with it and they allow themselves to effectively be sedentary. And then the other sorts of troubles start to show up, you know, sleep apnea from carrying excessive weight and then they're feeling tired during the day and then who can exercise when they're too tired when you got to work and maintain other life demands. And you can kind of see where this could arise and makes perfect sense. You can also see where if there were just a little bit more aggression, it could all be turned around, but they don't have it.

即使是低水平的攻击行为和由此导致的士气低落，也可能与高水平的寻求快乐相结合。所以我在想的是那些身形非常肥胖的人，如果他们现在还没有健康问题，很明显未来会出现。也许他们想减掉体重，想要感觉更有活力，不想患上二型糖尿病和过早死亡。但在某种程度上，他们已经放弃了。但因为进食的快乐是他们真正喜欢的。他们真的很喜欢。然而，进食对他们的生活有一定的影响，他们要么用它来自我安慰，要么只是为了满足基本的满足感，允许自己处于久坐状态。然后其他种类的问题开始出现，比如因为承受过多的体重而产生的睡眠呼吸暂停，然后他们白天感到疲倦，当你必须工作并满足其他生活要求时，谁还能够在太疲倦的时候锻炼呢？你可以看出这样的情况可能如何发生，并且非常合乎情理。你也可以看到，如果有更多一点的决心，一切都可以扭转，但他们没有那种决心。

So is the scenario described something that you've seen clinically? I certainly observe it in my non-clinical stance out there in the world a lot.

这里描述的情况，是你在临床上见过的吗？我在与非临床相关的环境中确实经常观察到这种情况。

Right. I think the most important thing you're pointing out is that aggression and pleasure on the high end, right, we know can trump the generative drive, right? But that this can also happen on the low end, right?

对，我觉得你指出的最重要的事情是，对于高潮的攻击和快感，我们知道它们能够压制生殖驱动力，对吗？但是这也可能发生在低潮的情况下，对吗？

So you're describing a situation says it's a great example, because it's not uncommon in the world around us. So the aggression, meaning the fuel to put oneself out there in the world, right, to utilize the sense of agency, right?

所以你在描述一个情况，说它是一个很好的例子，因为这在我们周围的世界中并不罕见。所以，侵略性，意味着挺身走向世界的动力，对吧，是利用自我主动性的感觉，对吗？

So this is going to be a person who's low agency, right? The aggressive drive has little fuel then to give the sense of agency. It's further squelched by negative sense of self and negative self talk.

所以这个人将会是一个行为力低下的人，对吗？积极的驱动力几乎没有能量来体现主动性。这还被消极的自我认知和自我贬低的言语所压抑。

Now you find where the aggressive drive is too low and too low can also trump the generative drive, right? Because then that person can't take care of themselves. A generative drive would say there's a lot of life to live and there can be great things in life and take better care of yourself.

现在你明白了，当侵略性的动力过低时，这种低迷还会超过创造性的动力，对吧？因为这样一个人就不能照顾好自己了。而创造性的动力会告诉我们生活中有很多美好的事情，我们应该更好地照顾自己。

And by the way, they're like people that you love and people that love you or if not, there's an animal regarding you love, right? So the generative drive is saying that, right? But it's not winning the day because the aggression or aggression is one word we could put to that drive. You could call it an assertion drive, you know, we call it an agency drive, but that's, you know, we're using agency in a different way, but that thing is too low. So it wins out over the generative drive.

顺便说一句，它们就像你所爱的人和爱你的人，或者如果没有，就是你所喜爱的动物，对吧？因此生成驱动力在说着这个，对吧？但是它并没有占据主导地位，因为进攻或侵略是我们可以用来形容这种驱动力的词。你可以称之为主张驱动力，你知道，我们称之为代理驱动力，但是那个东西太低了。它战胜了生成驱动力。

And then in the example you gave, it's not surprising that the pleasure drive goes the other way. Maybe there's a predisposition to that genetically. Maybe it's just reinforced because a person in that place could say, well, think of what the self conception would be, right? I'm in this terrible place.

然后在你提到的例子中，情感驱动力走向相反并不令人意外。可能这在基因上就有先天倾向。或许只是因为处于那种境地的人会说，想想自我概念会是什么样，对吧？我处在这个可怕的地方。

You know, I mean, I'm a terrible person. I can't make myself better or I'm not good enough to get better. No one cares about me. I can't make anything right. Therefore, like I don't matter. There's no reason to take care of myself. So why would I not do if I eat that one thing that I enjoy and it gives me pleasure, even it gives me pleasure for two minutes, then I'll eat another one. Like, in a sense, so what?

你知道的，我的意思是，我是个糟糕的人。我无法改变自己，或者说我不够好去变得更好。没有人在乎我。我无法做对任何事情。因此，我感觉自己毫无价值。没有理由照顾自己。所以，如果那件我喜欢的东西让我感到愉悦，哪怕只有两分钟的愉悦，我为什么不吃呢？在某种程度上，又有什么关系呢？

Well, because I don't feel that I'm worth preserving or that I can preserve myself, right? There's a nihilism to it that then kind of makes it make sense to overindulge the pleasure drive, whether it's a whether it's biologically predisposed or one is just arriving there.

嗯，因为我觉得自己不值得保留，也无法保护自己，对吧？这里有一种虚无主义，使得过度追求快乐变得合理，无论是生物上的倾向还是个人自身的感受。

But the reason all that is bad is because the aggressive drive is too low and in fact, it's low enough that it's outweighing the generative drive. Then the pleasure drive is going to come into one place or another. If it's also really low, the person does not much of anything and wastes away, which tragically happens a lot in our society, right?

但之所以所有这一切都不好的原因是因为攻击性的驱动力太低，事实上，它的低得足够多，足够多到超过了生殖性的驱动力。然后快乐的驱动力会在某一个地方出现。如果它也非常低，那个人几乎什么都不做，逐渐消磨殆尽，可悲的是这在我们的社会中经常发生，对吧？

Or if the pleasure drive is high, maybe that person overindulges and things that provide short-term gratification and then that causes a different set of problems. What's deterministic there is whether aggression or assertion, again, we can put different words to that drive, but what we've been calling the aggressive drive and the pleasure drive are they is one or the other or both high enough to trump the generative drive or low enough to trump the generative drive.

如果快感驱动力很高，可能那个人会过度沉溺于提供短期满足的事物，从而引发一系列不同的问题。决定性的因素是是否有侵略或表达的倾向，我们可以用不同的词来形容这种驱动力，但我们一直称之为侵略驱动力和快感驱动力，它们是否足够高超过创造性驱动力，或者足够低压制创造性驱动力。

And I think all problems that we see, like everything fits into this model because it honors what we know, right? It honors what we know about human behavior and insights into human behavior over harm hundreds of years, right? Over thousands of years, like the wisdom that we bring forward and it honors the science. And that's why it fits together because I think it honors who we are as what our species is, what we are and what it's like, what life is like as we try and engage with it.

我认为我们看到的所有问题都可以适用于这个模型，因为它尊重我们所知道的东西，对吗？它尊重我们对人类行为和对人类行为的见解的了解，这些知识经过了数百年的积累，对吗？几千年以来，它尊重了我们所传承的智慧，同时也尊重了科学。这就是为什么它能够整合起来，因为我认为它尊重了我们作为一个物种的身份，尊重了我们是谁以及我们如何与生活进行交互的经历。

I've seen cases of demoralized people where they simply disappear. They hide, they isolate, they slow down, they take terrible care of their health. And, you know, sadly, I've known several people like this in my lifetime, one of whom killed himself, the other who just has an immense number of health problems related to overeating and inactivity and knows it and talks about it. But nothing seems to change despite multiple interventions from a caring standpoint from friends, et cetera.

我见过许多心灰意冷的人，他们只会消失。他们躲起来，孤立自己，减慢行动，对自己的健康照顾不力。很可悲地说，我一生中认识了几个这样的人，其中一人自杀了，另一个则是由于暴饮暴食和缺乏活动而患有大量与健康相关的问题，并且他自己也意识到了并谈论过。但是，尽管朋友们等多次从关心的角度进行干预，却似乎没有任何改变。

I've also seen examples of people who are demoralized who seem to band with other demoralized people sort of try to recalibrate the standard that they feel oppresses them, you know, that they, and this isn't necessarily just in the realm of physical fitness. This is also in the realm of like school demands.

我还见过一些情绪低落的人们，他们似乎会与其他情绪低落的人们联合起来，试图重新调整他们所感到被压制的标准，你知道，这不仅仅是在身体健康领域，也包括学校的要求。

I went to a very demanding high school, as I've talked about before on a couple of podcasts. I barely finished high school. I was not an attentive student. I was my aggressive and pleasure drives went into non-academic endeavors and I regret that.

我曾就读于一所非常苛刻的高中，之前在几个播客中也提到过。我勉强完成了高中学业。我不是一个专心听课的学生。我的积极和乐趣都投入到了非学术的事情上，我对此感到后悔。

You know, I had so much making up of learning to do by the time I, you know, fortunately got to college, eventually caught up. But my experience of high school was that there were these, you know, kids scoring perfectly on the SAT in the early admission to Harvard and early admission to Yale and all these places. And then there was, you know, a distribution in the middle. And then there was a collection of kids who were not doing well, knew they weren't doing well and kind of banded together around the idea of not doing well. I didn't consider myself part of that group because I frankly wasn't there that often. I was focused on other things, as I mentioned, but what came of that group was actually quite tragic, not just for them, but for a lot of other people.

你知道的，到了大学之前，我需要做很多努力来弥补我的学习不足，幸运的是，最终我赶上了。但我在高中的经历是这样的，你知道的，有一些学生在SAT考试中取得满分，提前被哈佛大学、耶鲁大学等地录取。然后，在中间有一部分学生分布，接着有一群成绩不好的学生，他们知道自己不行，并且团结在一起，认同自己不行的想法。我并不认为自己是那个群体的一部分，因为我并不常去学校。正如我之前提到的，我的注意力放在其他事情上。但是，这个群体的遭遇实际上非常悲惨，不仅对他们自己而且对很多其他人来说都是如此。

They eventually engaged it. It wasn't a school shooting type scenario, but they eventually, you know, set off explosives in the on the school campus. This was after they'd graduated. I don't know where they are nowadays, but things did not go well for them. And they exerted a lot of destruction to other people around them. But before they did that, there was this kind of banding together around there, the fact that they didn't fit in that they, and they weren't bullied as I recall that I could be wrong about this. But I've seen this in other forms too.

他们最终参与了进来。这不是一个校园枪击事件的情景，但他们最终，在校园内引爆了爆炸物。这发生在他们毕业之后。我不知道他们现在在哪里，但事情对他们来说并不顺利。他们给身边的其他人带来了很大的破坏。但在他们这样做之前，周围形成了一种团结，因为他们觉得自己不合群，我记得他们并没有受到欺负，但这可能我记错了。不过，我在其他形式上也见过类似情况。

Like, you know, if you can't meet the standard, band up with other people and change the standard. And then you don't feel as demoralized perhaps. I can understand, I can rationalize why this would be a reasonable approach. But I'm seeing this more and more. I'm also seeing, by the way, you know, the other end of the spectrum, people are overly aggressive and pleasure-seeking and things that sort. But for the moment, I'd like your thoughts on, you know, how demoralization can split off into different expressions, depending on how people feel and who else they're relating to.

就像你知道的，如果你达不到标准，就和其他人一起建立一支队伍，改变那个标准。这样你也许就不会感到那么沮丧了。我可以理解，我可以理性地解释为什么这是一个合理的方法。但我越来越多地看到这种情况。顺便说一下，我也看到了另一极端，人们过分攻击性和追求快乐之事等等。但此刻，我想听听你对沮丧如何产生不同表现形式的想法，取决于人们的感受以及他们与谁有关联。

Yeah. Well, I think the place I would start is to say, our society rushes headlong forward in a way that causes our society to trample people who are vulnerable. And vulnerable people are demoralized people. Demoralized people are vulnerable people. And our society often tramples them. And then they're not here with us any longer. And that is tragic. But at times, they don't get trampled. They get cast aside. They're injured and cast aside. And from that place, tragic things happen. People then stay isolated.

是的。嗯，我觉得我会从这样说起，我们的社会急匆匆地前进，这种方式使得我们的社会践踏那些脆弱的人。而脆弱的人往往会感到沮丧。沮丧的人也是脆弱的人。而我们的社会经常会践踏他们。然后他们就不再和我们在一起了。这是悲剧的。但有时，他们并没有被践踏，而是被抛弃了。他们受伤后被抛弃了。从那个地方开始，悲剧就发生了。人们变得孤立。

I think it's a tragedy that we don't all band together and go door to door to seek people who aren't coming out of doors. You know, in the sense of we let people be so isolated and oftentimes that's the tragic end of someone's story. But sometimes people do engage, right? Either demoralized, but they can engage in ways that involve an affiliative defense.

我认为我们没有共同行动，挨家挨户寻找那些不愿出门的人，这是一个悲剧。你知道，我们让人们感到如此孤立，通常这是某个人故事的悲惨结局。但有时候人们会参与其中，对吧？无论是灰心丧气，还是以一种关联性的防御方式参与。

So sometimes people who are demoralized can affiliate. They can band together in ways, as I think you were alluding to, that can make things better. So if people are demoralized because, say, they're a group in society that is chronically very mistreated, right? Then it can be very powerful to band together, both because there's what's called an affiliative defense, that if I feel bad about myself about something and I'm alone, it's highly likely I'm going to continue feeling bad about myself about that thing, right?

有时候，情绪低落的人们可以结成联盟。正如你所暗示的那样，他们可以以某种方式团结起来，以改善情况。比如说，如果人们因为身处一种经常被虐待的社会群体而感到情绪低落，那么团结起来可以产生很大的力量。这是因为存在所谓的联盟防御机制，如果我对自己某件事感到糟糕，并且孤独一人，那么我很可能会继续对此事感到糟糕。

But if you feel bad about yourself about the same thing and then work together, right, we help each other feel better. We don't feel so lonely. We don't feel alone. We don't feel so isolated. We don't feel so ashamed, right? So an affiliative defense can help people to say, wait a second, like I'm not. There's nothing wrong with me and I'm not going to take this lying down or something, right? And to make assertions that create better rights in the world around us.

但是如果你对同样的事情感到自己很糟糕，然后我们一起努力，对吗？我们互相帮助让自己感觉好些。我们不再感到孤独。我们不再感到孤单。我们不再感到那么孤立。我们不再感到那么羞愧，对吗？所以，一种归属防御可以帮助人们说，等一下，我不是这样的。没有什么问题。我不会轻易屈服，对吗？并且提出断言，为我们周围的世界创造更好的权利。

So very good things can happen from affiliation in the context of demoralization, but very bad things can happen too, right? Because people can also affiliate around things that are very destructive. I mean, if I am hateful of society and I would like to be destructive and I'm alone, okay, I could do destructive things alone, but if I band together with a couple other people who feel that way, now I'm empowered to feel that way, right? Instead of maybe I feel that way or there's racism or prejudice and I don't feel like I can say that, right? But then when it's permissive, right, because other people are in the same place, then people can accentuate the hatred within them.

在士气低落的背景下，联合起来可以带来非常好的事情，但也可能发生非常糟糕的事情，对吧？因为人们也可以联合在一起进行非常破坏性的事情。我的意思是，如果我对社会充满仇恨并且想要破坏，如果我一个人，那我可以独自进行破坏性的行为；但是，如果我和其他几个有相同想法的人联合在一起，那么现在我就有更多能力去表达这种态度，对吧？而不仅仅是我一个人有这种感觉，或者存在着种族主义或偏见，而我又觉得不能说出口，对吧？但是当大家都处在允许表达的环境中时，因为其他人也处在相同的状态，那么人们就会加剧内心的仇恨情绪。

So affiliation is very, very powerful and part of society rushing so headlong forward and either trampling or marginalizing people is that we then don't pay attention or not enough attention to what happens with the affiliative groups, right? How do you guide people towards being able to affiliate in ways that are productive? How do you give them routes of being productive, right? How do you try and protect against the ways that affiliation can lead to destructive behavior? So I think a lot of this is that these are the natural things that happen within us, but a lot of what we're talking about now gets impacted a lot by society and societal standards, which we, of course, altogether determine, right, and arise from us, but they start to sort of transcend because it's now people interacting with a whole social system.

所以，归属感非常强大，并且是社会向前急速推进的一部分，或者说是不顾一切地踩踏或边缘化人们的原因之一，就是我们没有足够关注归属感群体中发生的事情，对此忽视了或者关注不够，对吧？你如何引导人们以有成效的方式建立归属感？你如何给他们提供成果的途径？你如何尝试防止归属感导致破坏性行为？我认为其中很多是我们内在自然发生的事情，但我们现在讨论的很多内容受到了社会和社会标准的很大影响，当然，这些标准我们是共同决定的，并源于我们，但它们开始超越个体，变成了人们与整个社会体系互动的现象。

Going back to the other end of the spectrum, excess aggression in particular was in a conversation with somebody recently, very successful, like beyond most people's comprehension of successful, financially successful, and seems to just have checked off their goals one box at a time from Go. But who described his underlying psychology and emotional state as one in which much of what he does on a day-to-day basis is driven by aggression. In fact, he volunteered in anecdote about the fact that he hates early morning meetings on Zoom, but he shows up to them as sort of like an FU toward somebody that might not even be on the meeting. And so there's a friction point for him that allows him to engage in a way that he wouldn't otherwise be able to engage, and he channels that towards productivity, and clearly it's worked for him. I don't know if he's done the sort of introspective deep dive, I imagine, though, through the structure of self-infunction of self, but what are we to make of that sort of example?

回到另一个极端，最近有人谈到过一种过度攻击性的情况，非常成功，超出了大多数人对成功的理解，包括财务上的成功，并且似乎仅仅通过逐一实现目标来获得成功。但他描述了自己潜在的心理和情感状态，他日常所做的很多事情都受到攻击性的驱动。事实上，他自愿讲述了自己讨厌早上在Zoom上开会的事实，但他还是参加了这些会议，似乎是对某个可能甚至不在会议上的人进行一种报复。所以对他来说，存在一个摩擦点，使他能够以一种其他情况下无法参与的方式参与其中，并将这种能量转化为生产力，显然这对他起到了作用。我不知道他是否进行了深入的内省，虽然我想他可能是通过自我功能性结构进行的，但对于这种例子我们应该如何解读呢？

I like the idea that if someone has a strong, aggressive drive that they would channel it toward good, I mean, I have no reason to think this person is doing anything but good in the world for themselves and others. They're not harming anyone, at least not to my knowledge. But that seems like a rough place to live. For me, it seems like a rough place to live.

我喜欢这个想法，即如果一个人有强烈、积极的动力，他们会将其用于善良。我是说，我没有理由认为这个人除了为自己和他人做好事之外还做其他事情。至少在我知道的范围内，他们没有伤害任何人。但那似乎是一个艰难的生活环境。对我来说，那似乎是一个艰难的生活环境。

And at the same time, I'll offer a very brief anecdote that, you know, at one point in my career, namely when I was a postdoc, I was in a position by virtue of having left a laboratory in the nature of the field at the time where the work I wanted to do was directly pitted against the work of another very powerful laboratory, except that I was alone postdoc working in a laboratory, essentially, on my own on this problem. And I remember going to my postdoc advisor, the late Ben Barris and saying, you know, I think it might just move to a different problem because I don't really want to go up against this goliath. And he said, you know, this is the best day. You know, I can capture Ben's voice. He said, they're absolutely not like there's no way you love this stuff. You have to do it because you love it. And he kept telling me how much I love it. And he reminded me that indeed I did love the questions. And once I was able to tap back into the love for and the curiosity around the questions, I was able to push aside the concerns enough that we did well in publishing certain papers. They did well. But those five years, frankly, were a lot less pleasurable than they could have been, I think, because much of the script in my head was that I was in friction with this, like, you know, at least in my mind, this oppressive force. It was purely competitive.

同时，我会提供一个非常简短的故事。在我的职业生涯中的某个时刻，具体来说是在我做博士后时，由于离开了一个当时非常有影响力的实验室，在我想要研究的领域，我处于直接与另一个非常强大实验室的工作对立的位置上。然而，当时我是一个唯一的博士后，在一个实验室里基本上是独自解决这个问题。我记得去找我的博士后导师，已故的本·巴里斯，告诉他，你知道吗，我想换一个问题，因为我真的不想与这个巨人对抗。他说，你知道吗，这是最好的时代。我能够模仿本的声音。他说，绝对不行，你一定要因为热爱这个领域而去做。他一直告诉我我有多么热爱这个领域。他提醒我确实热爱这些问题。一旦我能够重新激发对这些问题的热爱和好奇心，我就能够克服顾虑，在发表某些论文方面取得好成绩。他们做得不错。但老实说，那五年的经历远没有那么愉快，我觉得这在很大程度上是因为我脑海中的脚本是我与这个压迫力量（至少在我的想象中是如此）相冲突。那纯粹是竞争的。

And I truly believe that we can't be in our most creative state when we are competing with someone else by definition, because then you're creating against a standard as opposed to raw creation. So in both cases, a lot of aggressive drive, frankly, I have some of that and I had that. But a desire for revenge, a component of friction mixed in, you know, or integrated with this aggressive drive, like this picture, like, even as I describe it, is, you know, causing the release of a little bit of adrenaline, it's not a comfortable state. It can't be a state of happiness, right?

我真的相信，在我们与他人竞争时，无法达到我们最富创造力的状态，因为那时你是在与一种标准相对抗，而不是进行原始的创造。所以无论哪种情况下，都有很多的竞争压力，坦白地说，我也有一些竞争意识，曾经也是如此。但是对报复的欲望，其中融入的摩擦成分，你知道，或与这种竞争意识相融合，就像这张图片一样，即使我形容它，都会引发一点肾上腺素的释放，这并不是一种舒适的状态。它不能成为一种快乐的状态，对吧？

So as you said, people can do good in the world. They can do not good in the world. Like we're not making a value judgment about what the person is doing, because that's not what the question is about, right? Like, how are they feeling? How are they doing? Right? What's going on inside of them? Right? And that can't be happy. Right? Because if you're built to be pretty good at competition, right? So you can size up what are the factors, you know, you can strategize, right? So if a person is built to be really good at competition, then, you know, it sounds pretty good to make everything a competition, right? Because you have the highest winning percentage, right? And that's good to achieve some end, right? That doesn't have any feeling intrinsically associated with it, right? And if all you're doing is a series of competitions, then what you're doing then is winning, right? And like winning is something like, you know, winning is like, I won, I beat you, whatever that is, like that can be part of happiness, but it doesn't have to be, right? That's not happiness, right?

就像你说的，人们可以为世界做好事，也可以为世界做坏事。就好像我们对一个人正在做什么并没有进行价值判断，因为这不是问题的关键。对吧？我们关心的是他们的感受，他们现在的状态是怎样的，对吧？他们内心发生了什么？对吧？他们可能并不快乐。对吧？因为如果你在竞争中有很强的天赋，你就可以评估各种因素，制定策略。所以如果一个人在竞争中非常擅长，那么把一切都变成竞争似乎很不错，对吧？因为你有最高的获胜率，对吧？这有助于实现某个目标，这个目标本身没有与之固有联系的感情，对吧？如果你只是在进行一连串的竞争，那么你所做的就是赢，对吧？赢是一种像“我赢了，我打败了你”之类的东西，这可能是幸福的一部分，但不一定是幸福，对吧？那并不是幸福，对吧？

So yes, that kind of I'm really built to compete well, and I'm going to just see a series of competitions in front of me. That's for expedient forward progress, right? That's very effective. But again, expedient forward progress is nothing to do with peace, contentment, delight, like, it's not, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with that, in order to have anything to do with doing good or bad, right? And I think the example you gave in your own, in your careers, like, it's such a good example, right? Because, you know, if you think about it, when the way that you were sort of framing it inside is like, there's a question I'm asking, there's a question they're asking, right? And there's a competition, right? And again, it has to be too, too, to compete, right? So there's almost an automaticity, right? That like, they're studying the same thing, maybe, you know, they feel competitive or certain people there, too. They were, were and are definitely competitive. They know who they are. They're extremely competitive and very successful.

是的，我是真的具备竞争能力，我会看到一系列的竞争在我面前展开。这样做是为了更快地前进，对吧？这非常有效。但是，更快的前进与和平、满足和喜悦无关，你知道的，它跟行善或行恶没有关系，对吧？我觉得你在你的职业生涯中所给出的例子就是一个很好的例子，对吧？因为，你想想看，当你把它放在内心深处思考时，会有一个我在问的问题，还有他们在问的问题，对吧？然后就会有一场竞争，对吧？再次强调，必须去竞争才能参与，对吧？所以几乎可以自动地认为，他们在学习同样的东西，或许，他们感到竞争或某些人在那里也是如此。他们过去和现在都是非常有竞争力和非常成功的人，他们知道自己是谁。

Okay, so then, so then, you're like, okay, I'm in a competition. Now again, but you never decided to be in a competition, right? But automatically, right? I mean, it's interesting, right, to understand you're acting as if you're in a competition, you're just, I don't want this competition, right? Because like, they're bigger than me, it's going to be unpleasant, it's going to take you away from really thinking about what you want to do, right? It's going to make it harder to do a good, to do the job you want to do, right? Because now you're embroiled in, you know, something that's, you know, there has aggression behind it, right?

好的，那么，你觉得你自己好像参加了一场比赛。可是事实上，你并没有决定要参加这场比赛，对吧？而是自动地，对吧？我觉得很有趣，你表现得好像你在一场比赛中，但你并不想要这场比赛，对吧？因为他们比你厉害，这会让事情变得不愉快，会让你无法真正思考你想要做什么，对吧？这会使你更难做好你想做的工作，对吧？因为现在你陷入到了一个带有敌意的局面中，对吧？

So, so you choose, no, I don't, I choose not to do that, right? And then Ben Barris reframes it to the truth and says, well, this, this is not a competition because you're not choosing to compete, right? Because Ben pointed out what was important to you was the questions, right? So it's like almost as if Ben reminded you, no, no, no, no, this is not through the aggressive drive, look at it through the generative drive. That's what wins out in you, right? And then you go and apply yourself to it.

所以，你选择了，不，我不选择那样做，对吗？然后Ben Barris改变了这种观念，说，嗯，这不是一场竞争，因为你并不选择去竞争，对吗？因为Ben指出对你来说重要的是问题，对吗？所以好像Ben提醒你，不，不，不，不是通过积极的驱动来看待，而是通过生成力来看待。这是你胜出的原因，对吗？然后你去全身心地投入其中。

Yeah. And bless him for doing it because from that point forward, I've made it my firm mission to always do things from a place of what I always think about as delight, you know, curiosity, delight. The things that give me energy and that give me more energy from doing them.

是的。而且感谢他这么做，因为从那时起，我就确定了自己的使命，始终以我认为的愉悦为出发点做事情，你知道的，好奇心和愉悦感。那些给予我能量的事情，通过做这些事情又能让我获得更多能量。

It wasn't a coincidence, I believe that in those five years when I was operating from a mix of generative drive and the competition would then resurface and, you know, I couldn't hold it constant that I was absolutely exhausted by the end of that phase. I just in a way that sucked a lot of the pleasure out of it. I still drive some pleasure. But then as I mentioned, fortunately, I was able to pivot back to doing things out of love, you know, and getting back to peace, contentment and especially delight. Right.

这不是巧合，我相信在那五年的时间里，当我在追求创造力的驱动力和竞争之间徘徊时，竞争又重新浮现出来，你知道的，我无法保持它的稳定，结果那个阶段结束时我筋疲力尽。这种情况让我感到非常厌倦，剥夺了其中很多乐趣。我仍然从中获得一些快乐。但正如我之前提到的，幸好我能够重新回到出于热爱而做事情的状态，重新找回平静、满足，特别是喜悦。

And I absolutely make a value judgment about that, right? That what you did is better, right? So what if you did, what if you were different? So think about, if we talk about it through this accurate lens, what if you were different at that time and the aggressive drive in you was greater than the generative drive in you, right? Which would be an unhealthy state to be in. But let's say you were in that unhealthy state, then you probably would have still done what you did, but you would have done it through the lens of aggression. Like, I'm going to get that, right? Now you're competitive with them. There's anger in you. There's aggression, right? That you're enacting and fantasy as you're thinking about them and how you're going to win. Like all sorts of things go on inside of us.

我对此做出了明确的价值判断，对吗？你所做的比较好，对吗？那又怎样呢？如果你当时有所不同呢？那么，想象一下，如果我们通过正确的视角来讨论，如果你当时的攻击性驱动大于生成性驱动，那将是一种不健康的状态。但假设你处于这种不健康状态，你可能仍然会做你所做的事情，但你会通过攻击性的视角来做。比如，我要得到那个，对吗？现在你与他们竞争。你心中充满了愤怒和攻击性，你在幻想着如何战胜他们。我们内心深处发生着各种各样的事情。

And I would say there's no way on earth you could have done the science as well as you did, right? It couldn't be because all that stuff is distracting, right? It's that kind of negative affect pool for energy and time from you. And also what seeds would you have planted in the microcosm that you operate in, right? More competition, right? More competitiveness, more badness, right? So let's look at what you did do, right? Because you're healthy or this particular question about this particular thing, we know for sure, because your generative drive eclipses the aggressive drive, then you set yourself to the work in a way that's going to be more effective, right? Your brain isn't clouded. You're not wasting energy, you know, plotting some revenge. You're plotting what you're going to do if they come take something from your lab. I mean, whatever it is, you know, like you're not living in any of that.

而且我想说，你绝对做不到那么好的科学研究，对吧？这不可能是因为那些东西分散了你的注意力，对吧？它只是从你那儿汲取能量和时间这种消极情绪的来源。而且，在你所经营的这个微观世界里，你将播种什么样的种子？更多的竞争，对吧？更多的敌对竞争，更多的坏事，对吧？所以让我们来看看你所做的吧。因为你身体健康，或者说针对这个特定问题，我们可以确定的是，由于你的生成动力超过了攻击性动力，你能以更有效的方式投入到工作中，对吧？你的大脑没有混乱。你没有浪费精力在策划报复行动上。你在策划的是如果他们来拿走你实验室的东西，你将做什么。总之，无论是什么情况，你都不生活其中。

So you're going to do a better job at what you're, what's so important to you to do and what seeds are you selling then, right? You're selling seeds of collaboration, right? And even then if someone could say, well, what does even that matter, right? It's like, no, it doesn't matter because what you're doing then, we just follow for the math of it, right, is contributing to understanding that's contributing to human health, right? And the better understanding we have of human health, the more people stay alive and the more people stay healthy, which could mean any one of us.

那么，你将会更好地完成你目前正在做的事情，对你来说这件事很重要，而你销售的是哪些种子，对吧？你在销售协作的种子，是吗？即使有人说，那又有什么关系呢？其实并不重要，因为你所做的，我们只需按照数学进行追踪，是在为理解做出贡献，这对人类的健康有益。而我们对人类健康的理解越深入，就能让更多的人保持活着和健康，这其中可能包括我们自己。

Just like any one of us could be the vulnerable person that society tramples or casts aside. We all have it in us to be that or have been that at stages of our lives, right? We also all have it in us to be the opposite of that, right? We have it in us to be generative. We have it in us to make good. We have it in us to contribute to health, to survival. And that I place a value judgment upon. It's why doing good is better than doing bad, why creating is better than destroying and why ultimately it's the generative drive that has to trump the other drives.

就像我们每个人都有可能成为社会践踏或抛弃的弱者一样。在我们的生活中的某些阶段，我们每个人都有可能成为这样的人，对吗？我们每个人也都有可能成为相反的人，对吗？我们内心都有创造力。我们内心都有做好事的能力。我们内心都有贡献于健康和生存的能力。而这正是我所考量的价值判断。这就是为什么做好事比做坏事更好，创造比破坏更好，最终创造性的驱动力必须超越其他驱动力的原因。

And when it does, we're happy, we're healthy, we make the world a better place. We rely with and are suffused with the gratitude and agency in us are fully active and we're suffused with peace, contentment, delight. As you said, that's the place to be from that place. We get this thing that we want and we hope to make the world a better place, which helps us to keep the thing we want. It sounds so simple because as you pointed out, the manifestations of looking at the right things and doing the right things are so simple. Yes. Right?

当这种情况发生时，我们感到快乐、健康，我们让世界变得更美好。我们依靠着并深深感激焕发起我们内心的力量，并感受到平静、满足和愉悦。正如你所说，那就是我们希望来自的地方。我们得到了我们想要的事物，希望能够使世界变得更好，这有助于我们保持我们想要的东西。这听起来很简单，因为正如你指出的那样，看到正确的事物并做正确的事情的体现是如此简单。是的，对吧？

It's a list. We have a PDF that includes this list and the structure of the pillars and how they flow up to this list. But ultimately, it's peace, contentment and delight, you know, undergirded by agency and gratitude as active terms.

这是一个列表。我们有一个包含这个列表以及柱子的结构和它们如何与这个列表相连的PDF文件。但最终，它代表的是和平、满足和喜悦，你知道，以行动性的机会和感激为基础。

I mean, very simple at some level. And yet for many people, including myself at certain times in life, the excess or lack of aggressive drive or excess or lack of pleasure drive can interfere with people's ability to access these simple but incredibly powerful being states. Right? Because it's nature and nurture, right? So you might be built with a greater or lesser natural amount of one drive than I am, right?

我的意思是，在某种程度上非常简单。然而对于许多人来说，包括我自己在生活中的某些时刻，过多或缺乏攻击性动力或过多或缺乏愉悦动力可能会干涉人们接触这些简单但非常强大的生存状态的能力。对吧？这是因为既有天性又有养育方式对人的影响，对吧？所以你可能天生的某种动力比我多或少，对吧？

But then we've had life experience that creates a delta around that, right? So you say, okay, we're built with different amounts of all these drives. Yes. Right? But we also have control, right? Through our decisions, through how we handle our lives to modulate them. Right? So that makes sense because the thought can be, well, the drive is what the drive is and it varies across people. No, there's a range. The drive is in and that range can be very broad.

但是我们还有一些生活经验，这会产生不同的差异，对吧？所以你说，我们天生就有不同程度的这些动力。是的，对吧？但是我们也有控制权，对吧？通过我们的决策，通过我们如何处理生活来调节它们。对吧？所以这是有道理的，因为有人可能认为，动力就是动力，它在不同人之间是有差异的。不，其实有一个范围。这种动力存在于一个非常广泛的范围内。

I mean, people can do all sorts of things to cultivate the better. We all can. Right? So if we look at it as an unlimited upside, right, then what we see is I want to know where they at in me now, right? What's going on inside of me? What are all those other factors? Right? Because I want to cultivate the good. I want to cultivate that generative drive and I want to make sure the aggression and the pleasure aren't out of balance one way or another. Like, we can actively look at that and manage it.

我是说，人们可以采取各种措施来培养更好的自己。我们都可以。对吧？所以，如果我们将其视为无限的上升势头，对吧，那么我们所看到的是，我想知道他们在我内心中的位置，对吧？我内心到底发生了什么？还有那些其他因素呢？对吧？因为我想培养善良。我想培养那种创造力的驱动力，并确保侵略和快乐不会失去平衡。就像我们可以积极地观察和管理它们一样。

And I think that's like so what we're striving for because there's nothing here that we don't have some control over, right? And the higher we get up, right, the simpler it gets, the more we have control over it. But for people who feel like the ideals that we're providing a roadmap toward are not accessible, for whatever reason, maybe feeling a little bit or a lot demoralized, overly aggressive in not ending up where they want to go or ending up where they want to go and not experiencing deep satisfaction, peace, contentment and delight, where should they look in this framework that includes these pillars at the deep levels of structure of self-function of self that give rise to empowerment, humility, agency, gratitude, peace, contentment to light you.

我认为这就是我们所努力追求的目标，因为在这里，没有任何我们无法掌控的东西，对吧？而且我们越往上走，情况就变得越简单，我们对其有更多的控制权。但对于那些觉得我们提供的理想不可达到的人来说，无论出于何种原因，他们可能会感到一些或很多失望，过于攻击性，没有达到他们想去的地方，或是到达了他们想去的地方却没有体验到深刻的满足、平静、满足和愉悦，他们应该在这个包括这些支柱的框架中寻找一种深层次的自我的能力、谦逊、主动性、感激之情、平静、满足和愉悦的结构。

If someone should find themselves unmotivated or stuck, metaphorically speaking, staring out the window into the garden that could be and that they want so very much but that they're not creating. Again, that should translate to whatever domain of life you're seeking or not even in touch with what you really want. Infinitely confused about what to do in relationship, school, work, life, and thinking about all the oppressive forces in the world like the political chasm and the pandemics and lockdowns and all the stuff and all the things that are weighing down on us.

如果有人发现自己缺乏动力或陷入困境，就像隐喻所说的那样，他们盯着窗外的花园，这个花园是他们向往但却没有创造出来的。这同样适用于你所追求的生活领域，或者你甚至没有触及到自己真正想要的东西。对于在人际关系、学校、工作、生活中该做什么感到极度困惑，思考世界上所有压迫性力量，例如政治分歧、疫情与封锁以及所有压在我们身上的事情和事物，这一切都让我们感到无限沉重。

What should that person, in other words, what should we all do at that moment, stop and what? Each pillar has five cupboards, look in all five and follow the clues that you find there. That's the answer. So go back to structure of self-function of self, ask questions about and engage in practices that bring about more self-awareness, practices that draw our attention to what's salient for us, ask ourselves, what am I thinking about internally? What is my internal script? What am I focusing on externally? Am I spending all day on Twitter looking at accounts that I know I hate because it activates something in me, et cetera, et cetera? I might have revealed something about myself. I'm just kidding. That's not my behavior, but I see a lot of other people doing it.

那个人应该做什么呢，换句话说，我们所有人在那一刻应该做什么，停下来然后做什么？每个支柱有五个橱柜，你要看一看这五个橱柜，然后跟随你在那里找到的线索。那就是答案。所以回到我们自身的结构和功能，提出问题并参与可以增加自我意识的实践，引起我们对重要事物的注意，询问自己，我内心在思考什么？我的内在脚本是什么？我外在的关注点是什么？我是不是整天呆在Twitter上，看那些我知道我讨厌的账户，因为那能激发我某种情绪等等？我可能已经透露了一些关于我自己的事情。开个玩笑，那不是我的行为，但我见到很多其他人这样做。

What are my behavioral choices? What could bring about more hopefulness and strivings? Do I have that right? Right. There's so much of this that say one could do on one's own because we can think about ourselves and we can learn things. We say, well, I don't really know that much about defense mechanisms. Okay, look, we could read about it. We can do a lot of this on our own and we can get so much from talking to other people, people in our lives who are close to us, who love us. We can talk with them about what's going on inside of us. That is such an amazing mechanism of learning and they're also professional resources.

我的行为选择有哪些？是什么能带来更多希望和努力？我理解对了吗？没错。有很多事情我们可以自己做，因为我们可以思考自己，我们可以学习事物。我们可以说，嗯，我对防御机制并不太了解。好吧，我们可以读一下相关资料。我们可以自己做很多事情，通过与我们亲近的人谈话，我们可以从中获得很多东西，那些关心我们的人。我们可以与他们谈论我们内心的感受，这是一种非常奇妙的学习机制，还有专业资源可以利用。

The good therapy should encompass, this should be what it's doing. It might come out if you won lens or another lens because everybody's different and we can bring different modalities. But ultimately, that's what good therapy is doing.

很好的疗法应该包含这一点，这应该是它的目标。它可能通过各种不同的方法呈现出来，因为每个人都不同，我们可以运用不同的方式。但归根结底，这就是良好的疗法所做的。

It's looking in all 10 of those cupboards and it's seeing where is the issue. Let's follow the clues. It's a spirited inquiry, whether we're doing it on our own or we're doing it with other people in our personal lives or we're doing it with someone professionally. It's a spirited inquiry to follow the clues because if we follow the clues, there are answers.

它在那10个橱柜中搜索，并查找问题所在。让我们跟随线索。无论是我们自己进行还是与我们生活中的其他人合作，或是与专业人士一起进行，追随线索都是一种充满活力的探索。如果我们跟随线索，就能找到答案。

If we have the answers, then we can bring things into better alignment and then we're in a better place. Those pills are more stable and we can build on top of them what we want to build on top of them. The drives come better into line that we can do that and it can be an iterative process.

如果我们有了答案，那么我们就可以使事物达到更好的协调，从而使我们处于更好的位置。这些药片更稳定，我们可以在其基础上构建我们想要构建的东西。驱动因此更加协调，我们可以这样做，这是一个逐步迭代的过程。

We attain some better state of mind and life is better and we're happy. This happens to people. There's a lot of contentment and peace and if things are going well and now something isn't as much, go back and look again.

我们达到了更好的心态，生活变得更美好，我们感到快乐。这种情况适用于每个人。有很多满足和平静，如果事情一切顺利，现在有一些不太顺利了，那就回过头再重新审视一下。

It's a process we can use over and over because it works because it fits with the truths and the reality is as we have understood, learned them or education, this is learning about humans across hundreds of years. Tells us this.

这是一个我们可以反复使用的过程，因为它有效，并且与我们所理解、学习到的真理和现实相契合，这是几百年来对人类的了解告诉我们的。

It makes very good sense to me in the way that you have mapped it out for us. So much sense in fact that I'm just struck by how divergent it is from what I think most people think of when they think of therapy or that some of the risks of going to a psychiatrist, which I think it's only fair to consider, in particular the way that at least from my outside non-clinical understanding, these sorts of situations of high levels of demoralization or excessive aggression or just people not being in the place or being able to exert their actions in the world the way they want or not get the results they want is they'll start asking questions like, maybe I have a chemical imbalance or maybe they'll go to a clinician, maybe a cognitive behavioral therapist or psychiatrist and more often than not it seems they'll get a prescription for X number of milligrams of some serotonergic agonist or dopaminergic agonist.

对于你为我们做的规划，我非常能理解，它确实让我有很好的感觉。它让我惊讶的是，它与大多数人在谈起治疗或咨询精神科医生时所想的截然不同。我认为我们应该考虑一些风险，特别是那些在我外行人的非临床理解中，面临高度沮丧、过度攻击或无法按照自己意愿行动、无法获得想要的结果的人们。他们会开始质疑自己是否存在化学失衡，或者会去咨询临床医生，可能是认知行为疗法师或精神科医生，而往往他们会得到一份处方，上面写着某种血清素激动剂或多巴胺激动剂的剂量。

And of course as a neurobiologist, I applaud the exploration of underlying brain mechanisms and the involvement of neuromodulators like dopamine and serotonin. But what you're describing today is very different, I think, than what most people can expect if they go to the typical psychiatrist or typical psychologist, which is part of the reason we're having this conversation. But I'd love your thoughts on that.

当然，作为一名神经生物学家，我对探索潜在的大脑机制以及多巴胺和血清素等神经调节物质的参与表示赞赏。但是，你今天描述的情况与大多数人去典型的精神科医生或心理学家那里所期望的可能非常不同，这也是我们进行这次对话的部分原因。但我很想听听你对此的想法。

And I don't want to make this about me, I only offer this anecdote as a way to round out a little bit of the earlier discussion. I'll never share this publicly, but when I was a postdoc and going through that very hard phase of competition that I didn't want and having a hard time staying in touch with that and there were some other developmental things starting to resurface just by virtue of moving back to the town I grew up in, et cetera.

我并不想将注意力放在我身上，我只是提供这个轶事来补充一下之前讨论的内容。我永远不会公开分享这个，但当我还是一个博士后，在那段我并不想要的激烈竞争阶段，我很难保持联系，还有一些之前的发展问题重新浮出水面，只是因为回到了我长大的城镇等等。

I recall getting to the stairway of the building I was working in at the time, which is the same one where my laboratory exists now actually. And realizing I couldn't go up the stairway. I've always been reasonably fit and just being so exhausted and then driving home that day on 280 and thinking, none of this matters. What am I doing? None of it matters. I could have been exhausted. I don't know what it was.

我记得当时我正要走到楼梯口，这是我当时工作的建筑物，实际上就是我现在实验室所在的地方。突然意识到我无法上楼梯。我一直以来身体状况都还不错，但那天我感到非常疲倦，然后开车回家的路上，我想着，这一切都不重要。我在做什么？这一切都不重要。也许是因为过度劳累吧，我不知道。

But what that ultimately resulted in was me talking to a psychiatrist who gave me a low dose of a serotonergic antidepressant. I took that low dose of serotonergic antidepressant. I don't recall which one it was. Maybe it was the telepram, would that make sense? And spent that evening staring at my plate of Thai noodles for about two hours.

但最终的结果是我与一位精神科医生交谈，他给我开了一种低剂量的选择性5-羟色胺抑制剂抗抑郁药。我服用了那种低剂量的抗抑郁药。我记不清是哪一种药了，也许是*电波拉母*，这样有道理吗？那个晚上，我就盯着自己的泰式面看了大约两个小时。

It hit me really hard and I hated that feeling and then just stopped taking the drug. Now this is no knock on satalopram or the use of serotonergic agents in the proper context. They've saved lives, so the problematic too. But that wasn't the route that eventually got me out of it. It was mainly talk therapy and self-care. But I just offer that because even as a neurobiologist, especially as a neurobiologist, I thought, okay, here's the solution. It's going to shift some internal modulatory system and I'm going to feel okay about the situation I'm in.

这对我产生了很大的冲击，我讨厌这种感觉，于是就停止了服用药物。我并不是在抨击沙他罗伯或者精氨酸类药物在适当环境下的使用。它们拯救了生命，也存在问题。但最终让我走出困境的并非药物，而是主要通过谈话疗法和自我关爱。我之所以提及这一点，是因为即使作为一个神经生物学家，尤其是作为一个神经生物学家，我之前认为：“好吧，这就是解决办法了。它会改变某些内部调控系统，我将会对我所处的情况感到满意。”

And thank goodness it didn't work even for a short while. While I didn't do all the things that you're describing here of exploring the function of self because no one has ever laid this out for me, I took the route of talk therapy, which I find immensely beneficial. Takes time but immensely beneficial.

谢天谢地，即使只是短暂的一段时间，那也行不通。虽然我没有像你在这里描述的那样全面探索自我功能，因为没有人向我说明，但我选择了谈话疗法这条路，我发现这对我非常有益。它需要时间，但好处很大。

So what are your thoughts on the current strategies for diagnosis? Where those succeed? Where they fall short? And the role of medication in navigating this simple and yet complex landscape? We are so dramatically over reductionist. It's almost to the point of unbelievable. Think about getting a medicine, getting some say, sitalopram, because of what happened. It can't possibly work.

对于目前的诊断策略，你有什么想法？它们在哪些方面取得了成功？又在哪些方面存在不足？药物在应对这个简单而又复杂的困境中扮演了什么角色呢？我们的观点太过简化了，几乎到了难以置信的地步。想象一下，由于发生了某些事情，你得到了一种药物，比如西酞普兰，但它显然不可能起作用。

Now maybe a judiciously chosen medicine could provide a little more distressed tolerance and you could think about it more and you could find your way through it. But clearly it was an issue of self, right? Like you're in a situation that was high stress and you're going to have to have this competition or not. Is it going to be good for you? And you don't want that? Can you avoid it? There's something going on that makes you not be able to walk up those stairs, right? So again, I'm not criticizing what kind of conversations you had about it with a person but the idea that a pill will fix that is like that's insane, right? Now medicines can help smooth the way.

现在也许一种谨慎选择的药物可以提供一些更强的容忍力，让你能更多地思考并找到解决方法。但显然这是一个关乎自己的问题，对吗？就像你处在一个高压力的情境中，你必须参加这个竞赛，否则呢？这对你有好处吗？你不想要这样吗？你能避免吗？有些事情让你无法爬上楼梯，对吧？所以，我不是在批评你对此与他人的交谈方式，但认为一颗药丸就能解决这个问题是疯狂的，对吧？现在药物可以帮助你顺利度过难关。

So let's say you initially went in the first time you see someone and they said, okay, we have to talk about this, what's going on in your life? Because normally you can walk upstairs and go to work, right? Why can't you now? And you need to think about that. When you talk about that, let's say you start doing that and you're having a lot of trouble with it, where you're just having really high levels of anxiety. You might say, look, a medicine can kind of take the temperature down a little bit, you know, give you a little more distressed tolerance. And then, you know, we can, you can think about it better inside of you and we can talk about it better. But it's medicine in the service of understanding.

所以，假设第一次见到某人时他们说：好吧，我们得谈谈你生活里发生的事，因为通常你可以上楼去上班，对吧？为什么现在不能了呢？你需要思考一下。当你谈到这个时，假设你开始这样做，但遇到了很多困难，你可能感到非常焦虑。你可能会说，看，药物可以降低一点温度，你知道，给你更多的适应压力的能力。然后，我们可以更好地在你内部思考，更好地谈论它。但这是为了理解而使用的药物。

Now, sometimes medicines are doing things like medicines that can help prevent bipolar episodes, right? They're doing something that is purely biological, but we use so many medicines for things that are not biological, they're psychological, but we're so over-reductionists that we could actually over-reduce the problem that you said, right? Like a clear, wow, that's fascinating, right? Like how many times have you gone up those stairs and now you can't? It's so interesting, the idea of like, let's just give you a pill. I mean, it really makes no sense, but if we're over-reductionist enough, you could see how that's the logical endpoint of an illogical process, right?

现在，有时药物可以起到预防躁狂发作的作用，对吧？它们实际上是在进行纯粹的生物学干预，但我们用许多药物来处理那些非生物学的心理问题，我们过于过度简化了问题，你说的那个问题可能也会被过度简化，对吧？就好像一个明显的例子，你以前可以轻松地上楼梯，现在却不能了。这种想法真的很有趣，就是给你开个药方就行了。我是说，这真的没有任何意义，但如果我们过度简化了，你可以看到这是一个不合逻辑过程的逻辑结局，对吧？

And I'll give you another example, and this is really, it's a true story of a woman, a young woman comes into the emergency room and says she can't sleep and, you know, she looks anxious and she feels very, very anxious by her description and that's why she can't sleep and she gets a sleeping medicine and she goes home and then she comes back, she comes back a couple of days later and she's very, very anxious and she can't sleep and she looks like she did before or like nothing that seems to be different and she hasn't gotten any sleep at all. So the doctor in charge gives her a higher dose of the sleeping medicine and then she goes home and then she comes back yet again and nothing is any different. She's still not sleeping, she's still anxious and then the doctor concludes that she's drug seeking because she wants more and more of the sleeping medicine, okay?

我给你举个例子，这是一个真实的故事。一位年轻女性到急诊室求助，她说她无法入睡，你知道，她看起来很焦虑，她的描述让人感觉她非常非常焦虑，这就是她无法入睡的原因。医生给她开了一种安眠药，她回家了，然后几天后她又回来了，她非常非常焦虑，无法入睡，她看起来和以前一样，或者说没有任何看起来不同的地方，她根本一点儿都没有睡。所以负责的医生给了她更高剂量的安眠药，然后她又回家了，然后她又再次回来了，一切都没有任何变化。她仍然无法入睡，仍然焦虑。于是医生得出结论，她是在追求药物，因为她想要越来越多的安眠药，好吗？

What was actually going on was she was getting hurt at home, she was terrified to go home. Of course she couldn't sleep, right? Like bad things were happening, right? But no one asked the question, right? They thought she cannot sleep, will give sleeping medicine, right? Instead of asking why, right? And then she gets home, she sent home and when the medicine doesn't work, well, now there's something wrong with her, right? And if you put that label on her, now she's drug seeking, right, then she's not going to get any help, right?

实际上发生的事情是她在家受伤了，她害怕回家。当然她无法入睡，对吧？就像糟糕的事情在发生一样，对吧？但是没有人问过这个问题，对吧？他们认为她无法入睡，就给她一些安眠药，对吧？而不是去问为什么，对吧？然后她回到家，被送回家，当药物没有效果时，现在她出现问题了，对吧？而且如果给她贴上这个标签，现在她就是寻求药物的人，对吧，那她就得不到任何帮助了，对吧？

So I'm not against medicines. I mean, I use psychopharmacology as part of my practice and I think from a biologically based perspective about many things. But we have to know what something is the answer for and what something is not the answer for. And in the overly reductionist world of throughput in healthcare systems, people are even being trained these days that don't know any different, right? And I'm trying to be overly critical of practitioners because often practitioners are working in impossible situations where the goal is through throughput and that's more efficient in the short term, right? It's more efficient today, right? But it's of course not good in anything but the today term. And it's interesting because it's never good for the person even today. It's like never good for the people in it, right? But often these decisions are being made based upon business and money.

所以我并不反对药物。我的意思是，作为我的一部分，我使用心理药理学，并从生物学的角度考虑很多事情。但我们必须知道某件事情是解决方案，也要知道某件事情不是解决方案。在过度简化的医疗系统世界中，甚至有一些如今接受培训的人都不知道其他方法，对吧？我并不想对医生过分挑剔，因为很多医生经常在不可能的情况下工作，他们的目标是快速处理，这在短期内更有效率，对吧？今天来说它确实更加高效，对吧？但当然，它除了今天不会有好结果。有趣的是，即使是当天，这也从来不对个人有益。就像对其中的人来说从来都不是好事，对吧？但很多时候，这些决策是基于商业和金钱的。

And I understand business and money. I'm a capitalist. I'm interested in these things. But the way that we have let things get, the business and money with a short-sighted, short-term perspective then bonds with the over reductionist ways that we approach medicine. And then we have these bizarre things happen and these kind of bizarre things and lives, right? To change the courses of lives.

我了解商业和金钱。我是一个资本主义者，对这些事情很感兴趣。但是我们对事物的处理方式过于短视、短期化，导致商业和金钱与我们对医学的过度简化方式相结合。然后我们就会发生一些奇怪的事情，这些奇怪的事情会改变人们的生活轨迹。

Like fortunately, you got what you needed and you figured things out. But if you hadn't, would you have the career you have? Like we don't know, right? If someone else hadn't realized, like let's talk to that woman and see what's going on, would she have survived? I mean, we don't know. The point of that is lots of bad things happen, right?

很幸运的是，你得到了你所需要的并且解决了问题。但是如果没有这样的情况发生，你现在还会有你现在的职业吗？咱们不知道，对吧？如果没有别人意识到，并且跟那个女人交谈了解情况，她还会活下来吗？我的意思是，我们不知道。这说明很多坏事情都会发生，对吧？

We're rolling the dice too many times with too many people and it doesn't have to be that way. And the way that we're doing it now is not only inefficient financially, right? The thing that we seem to be caring about most, it leads to bad outcomes and it also makes no sense. Right? We're looking at it through this sort of bizarre lens, then we may find within us the strength to change that and to change it in a way that actually fits the science and fits the common sense.

我们正在与太多人太多次地冒险，并且这并不是必要的。而且我们现在的做法不仅在财务上效率低下，对我们最关心的事情，它会导致糟糕的结果，而且也毫无意义。对吧？我们似乎通过一种奇怪的视角来看待它，然后我们可能会发现内心的力量来改变它，以一种符合科学和常识的方式改变它。

I have to imagine that both for people who require medication in order to cope, in order to manage their way through these questions about function of self and how they are in the world, what they're paying attention to, et cetera, and for people who don't require medication to do this exploration, that this very same exploration is the roadmap to feeling agency, gratitude, peace, contentment, and delight. Medicines may have a role.

我不得不想象，无论是对于那些需要药物来应对，在功能自我与自身在世界中如何存在，以及他们关注的事物等问题中需要药物来应对的人，还是对于不需要药物来进行这种探索的人来说，这种非常相似的探索都是实现自主性、感恩、和平、满足和愉悦的路线图。药物可能在其中发挥着一定的作用。

So if, for example, we go look at the pillars and things are not going so well and you see that whenever that person has a bipolar manic episode, while things get really, really damaged and it's very, very hard to, they can't recover from that in the ways they want to, then we can say, well, we're going to use medicine to help this. Now, of course, there are other things to use, behavioral changes, for example, right? But there's a clear biological role, just like we use medicine to stop seizures, right? But people also have to make sure they're not super sleep deprived. There's another part to it too.

所以，例如，如果我们去看柱子，事情发展得不太顺利，你会发现每当这个人发生双相情感障碍的时候，情况会变得非常糟糕，非常难以复原，他们不能按照自己想要的方式来恢复，那么我们可以说，好吧，我们要使用药物来帮助他们。当然，还有其他方法可以使用，例如行为改变，对吧？但是有一个明显的生物学作用，就像我们使用药物来停止癫痫发作一样，对吗？但人们还必须确保他们不要过度缺乏睡眠。还有另一个方面。

We can use medicine to prevent bipolar episodes, but there's another part of self care involved too. But it's a role of medicine, right? Just as if anxiety levels aren't coming down too much, say for the person to get at the trauma, right? They know there's a trauma. They've talked around it for 20 years. They know it's been impacting them. They're not sure how it's hard to go there. They're with a trusted therapist, but it's still hard to put words to it. And now they're maybe having a panic attack, right? They think, okay, we can use medicines to take the temperature down to sort of ease that person's way forward so that they can understand something, right? That then provides a resolution in that part of the pillar and then things are set in a better place.

我们可以使用药物来预防双相情感障碍的发作，但还需要进行另一部分的自我护理。但这不正是药物的作用吗？就像焦虑水平没有下降太多，比如一个人要面对创伤，对吗？他们知道有一个创伤。他们已经围绕这个问题谈论了20年。他们知道它一直在影响着他们。但他们不确定面对它有多困难。他们和一位值得信赖的治疗师在一起，但还是很难用言语表达。现在他们可能正在经历一次恐慌发作，对吗？他们认为，好吧，我们可以使用药物来降低温度，使那个人的前进之路变得更加容易，以便他们能够理解一些东西，对吧？这就为这一支柱中的问题提供了解决办法，然后一切就会变得更好。

So the biological aspect, specifically here we're talking about medicines has its place, but the idea that medicines are a substitute for understanding, this makes no sense.

因此，从生物学角度来看，尤其是在讨论药物时，它确实有其作用，但认为药物可以替代理解的观念是毫无道理的。

Well you've provided us an incredible framework. Thank you. You know, this framework really speaks to all of us, right? You know, that the components that make us who we are, you know, that as you put it, the structure of the self, you know, everything from the unconscious mind, conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, self, and the functions of self, you know, these components of self awareness, defense mechanisms reaching out from that iceberg under the water. What we pay attention to our behaviors and hopefully our strivings and sense of hope and how those two pillars flow up into empowerment, humility, agency and gratitude, again, as action terms, as active terms, and eventually to peace, contentment and delight in this notion of generative drive, as well as some of the pitfalls and challenges that can pull down on generative drive or occlude generative drive.

你提供了给我们一个了不起的框架。谢谢你。你知道，这个框架确实触动了我们所有人，对吧？你知道，它形成了我们自己的构成部分，你知道，就像你说的，自我的结构，意识不可知的思想、意识的理解、防御机制、性格结构、自我的存在以及自我存在的功能，你知道，这些自我意识的构成部分，防御机制从水下的冰山中延伸出来。我们关注自己的行为，希望能够追求和拥有希望感，以及这两个支柱向上流动进而产生授权、谦逊、主动性和感激之情，再次强调这些行动方面，并最终达到平和、满足和对生成动力的愉悦，以及一些可能削弱生成动力或遮蔽生成动力的陷阱和挑战。

And you very clearly pointed us to where we should all look in terms of understanding ourselves better and where we could do better and be better in the world. Because this is a series, we have the wonderful opportunity to have you tell us even more about how this structure plays out both in terms of its healthy expression and in terms of its unhealthy expression, you know, in different pathologic conditions that, you know, most of us are familiar with, at least in name.

你非常清晰地指引了我们所有人在理解自己更好和在世界上做得更好的方面应该关注的地方。由于这是一个系列，我们有幸能够听到你对这种结构在健康表达和不健康表达上的更多阐述，你知道，在不同的病理条件下，我们大多数人至少在名字上都很熟悉。

And I'm sure you're going to tell us more about, you know, what the, what the real, both underpinnings and expressions of things like narcissism and, you know, extreme and mild form, you know, anxiety and its extreme and mild forms and also some of the names and diagnoses that we're more familiar with hearing about, such as, you know, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive things of that sort. But that all relate back to and really are nested in this structure and function of self and where it can all go. So first of all, I want to say, and thank you, really an immense thank you for defining this structure and making it so clear to me and to everybody else. And as you said, it has its complexity. There's in fact immense complexity down there at the bottom, but that flows up from complex to very simple ideals and a roadmap to get there. And again, the PDF is available to people as a link in the show note captions. Should they want to see this in visual form? I also want to thank you for assembling this structure, not just as a tutorial, but because at least to my knowledge, no such structure or summary of these structures exists anywhere in the world and certainly not in any form that the non-clinician and not, you know, highly trained psychiatrists could ever access or understand. So this is both an immense resource and an immense gift to us all. Thank you so very much.

我相信你一定会告诉我们更多关于，你知道的，自恋和焦虑这类事物的真正基础和表达方式，无论是极端的还是温和的形式，以及一些我们更熟悉的听过的名称和诊断，比如双相情感障碍，强迫症等等。但所有这些都可以追溯到并且真正嵌套在自我的结构和功能中。首先，我想说声谢谢你，真的非常感谢你为我和其他所有人定义了这个结构并且让它变得如此清晰。就像你说的，它确实是复杂的。事实上，在底层非常复杂，但它从复杂的观念流向非常简单的理想，并提供了一条达到这些理想的路线图。再次强调，PDF版本的结构图在节目说明中有链接，任何人都可以在那里查看。我还要感谢你组织了这个结构，并且不仅仅把它作为教程，因为据我所知，世界上没有任何一个地方有这样的结构或总结，而且普通人和非高度训练的精神病医生也无法获得或理解。所以这既是一份巨大的资源，也是一份巨大的礼物，送给我们所有人。非常感谢你。

You're so welcome and thank you for having me here, which is a gift. To be continued in the next episode, thank you. Thank you for joining me for this first episode of our series on mental health with Dr. Paul Conti. And I encourage you to keep an eye out for the second episode in this series, which is going to be about how to improve your mental health. I'll just remind you that all episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast can be accessed completely zero cost and in all formats by going to HubermanLab.com. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am HubermanLab on all platforms. So that's Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, threads and Facebook. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast. So again, it's HubermanLab on all social media channels. Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements. While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, for hormone support and for focus. If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to Live Momentus spelled O U S. So it's live momentus.com slash Huberman. If you haven't already subscribed to our newsletter, it is a zero cost newsletter called the neural network newsletter and in the neural network newsletter, you get free podcast summaries as well as tool kits. The tool kits are brief PDFs that list off the specific science backed protocols for things like improving your sleep, improving focus, optimizing dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a complete summary of our fitness series. Again, all available, completely zero cost. You simply go to HubermanLab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to newsletter and provide your email to sign up. We do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion, which is the first episode in our series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

非常欢迎，并感谢你邀请我来这里，这是一份礼物。以下内容将在下一集中继续，谢谢。感谢你加入我们的系列节目之一，与Paul Conti博士一起探讨心理健康话题。我鼓励你继续关注本系列的第二集，将介绍如何改善心理健康。请记住，通过访问HubermanLab.com，你可以完全免费地以各种格式获取Huberman Lab播客的所有剧集。如果你从中学到了知识或者享受了本播客，欢迎订阅我们的YouTube频道，这是一个非常好的零成本的支持方式。此外，请同时在Spotify和Apple上订阅播客。在Spotify和Apple上，你可以给我们留下最多五颗星的评价。还请关注本集开始和全集中提到的赞助商。这是支持本播客的最佳方式。如果你有关于我的问题或对播客的评论，或者有希望我考虑主持的嘉宾，请在YouTube的评论区提出。我会阅读所有的评论。如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我的用户名是HubermanLab，我的账号分别在Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn、Threads和Facebook上提供。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与Huberman Lab播客的内容有重叠，但也有很多与Huberman Lab播客的内容不同的内容。所以，无论是在Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn、Threads还是Facebook上，我的用户名都是HubermanLab。虽然本集并不涉及，但在许多Huberman Lab播客的以前集数中，我们讨论了补充剂。虽然补充剂并非每个人都必需，但许多人从中获得了巨大的益处，例如改善睡眠、支持荷尔蒙和提高注意力。如果你想了解在Huberman Lab播客中讨论的补充剂，你可以访问Live Momentus的网站，网址是live momentus.com/huberman。如果你还没有订阅我们的电子通讯，它是一份名为"神经网络通讯"的免费通讯。在神经网络通讯中，你将免费获得播客摘要以及工具包。工具包是简短的PDF文件，列出了针对改善睡眠、提高注意力、优化多巴胺、有意识的冷暴露等方面的具体科学支持的协议。我们还提供了完整的健身系列摘要。同样，这些内容都是免费提供的。你只需访问HubermanLab.com，点击菜单，向下滚动至"newsletter"，然后提供你的电子邮件地址进行注册。我们不会与任何人分享你的电子邮件地址。再次感谢你参与今天的讨论，这是我们与Paul Conti博士一起探讨心理健康系列的第一集。最后，但肯定不是最不重要的，感谢你对科学的兴趣。