New Study Analyzes Global Careers and How International Moves Impact Pay & Outcomes

This podcast is brought to you by the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. More people think about their careers as a global one with more firms keeping operations in different countries. There isn't much wonder why that is the case. But if someone with a global career moves to another country, what is the impact on things like compensation? A new study spoke to over 1300 MBAs to discuss the impact of their careers to being international. Martine Haas, Professor of Management at the Wharton School and also Director of the Lauder Institute, part of that research and she joins us with more.

本播客由宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院提供。越来越多的人将自己的职业视为全球化的职业，因为越来越多的公司在不同的国家开展业务。这并不奇怪。但是，如果一个全球化职业的人移居到另一个国家，薪酬等因素会受到什么影响呢？一项新的研究对1300多名MBA毕业生进行了调查，讨论了他们的职业对国际化的影响。Martine Haas是沃顿商学院的管理学教授，也是Lauder研究所的所长之一，她将与我们一起讨论更多相关内容。

Martine, pleasure to talk to you again. How have you been? I'm great. Good to talk to you too, Dad. Thank you. And this is obviously a very interesting topic. Let me start with kind of the backstory on what was it that kind of stirred your interest to be a part of this research? Yes. So, you know, this research is about global careers and in some form or another, that's always been an interest of mine. I have a global career myself. But my early dissertation research, I actually did a lot of research at the World Bank and I got really interested there in the difference between what I called locals and cosmopolitan. And so the locals were people who, you know, spent a lot of time in the particular country where the project was being done, really understood it. But then you have the cosmopolitan. So these people who travel all around the world and bring their knowledge with them, you know, and learn more obviously as they go. And so I did this early research on particularly cosmopolitan for locals.

玛丁，很高兴再次与你交谈。最近过得怎么样？我很好。和你交谈也很开心，爸爸。谢谢。显然，这是一个非常有趣的话题。让我先从背景讲起，是什么激发了你对参与这项研究的兴趣呢？是的，这项研究是关于全球职业的，在某种程度上，这一直是我的兴趣所在。我自己也有一个全球职业。但是我的早期论文研究，我实际上在世界银行做了很多研究，我对当地人和国际人之间的区别非常感兴趣。当地人是那些在项目所在国度度过很多时间，对其有深入了解的人。而国际人则是那些到世界各地旅行，并随之带来知识，当然他们也在旅行中不断学习。所以我早期的研究主要关注了国际人对当地人的影响。

And then, you know, more recently, as you mentioned, I've been, I'm the Director of the Lauder Institute and our students there are doing a master's degree in international studies at the same time as their Wharton MBA. And so they are incredibly international students and have very international careers and stuff. So, you know, there's always, you know, strong interest in how their careers are unfolding. And then this opportunity came along. So my co-authors, Matthew Bidwell and Isabelle Fernandez-Mateo were designing a survey for the alumni of a large European Business School, one of the leading Business School in the world. And, you know, it was a great opportunity for me to contribute some questions that I wanted to know more about to do with global careers. And they became really interested in that too. And we brought on our fourth co-author, Jibana Caponi, to help us analyze the data. And together, we thought we'd be interested in this question because it's really remarkably little research that looks at how global careers unfold over time and how that affects compensation. You know, we know stuff about how it affects people, you know, psychological well-being, that kind of thing. But not how it affects actual career outcomes, particularly with account compensation in this paper.

然后，你知道，最近一段时间，正如你提到的，我一直是劳德学院的院长，我们那里的学生同时攻读沃顿商学院的MBA学位和国际研究硕士学位。因此，他们是非常国际化的学生，有着非常国际化的职业和经历。因此，你知道，我们始终对他们的职业发展非常感兴趣。然后，机会来了。所以，我的合著者Matthew Bidwell和Isabelle Fernandez-Mateo正在为一所欧洲一流商学院的校友设计一项调查。你知道，这对我来说是一个很好的机会，可以提出一些关于全球职业的问题，也是我想更多了解的。他们对此也非常感兴趣。然后，我们请来第四位合著者Jibana Caponi一起帮助我们分析数据。我们一起对这个问题很感兴趣，因为关于全球职业如何随时间推移发展以及其对薪酬的影响的研究非常有限。我们已经了解了一些关于它如何影响人们心理健康等方面的信息，但关于它如何影响实际职业发展尤其是薪酬方面的知识还很少。

And so it seems like one of the takeaways here is the fact that a global career, maybe in the first couple of years, has the potential to have a negative impact on compensation, but that over the longer period of time, that that may even out or even, you know, improve it as that person continues, correct?

因此，这里的一个重要观点似乎是全球化职业生涯，在最初的几年可能会对工资产生负面影响，但随着时间的推移，这种影响可能会逐渐平衡甚至有所改善，对吗？

Yeah, so that's almost correct, but we need to sort of be pretty careful about how we understand it. It's not really about sort of short-term, long-term, it's really about how many global moves, international moves, music of countries you make over the course of your career. So what we were looking at is, you know, how does one international move affect your compensation in the long-term? How does, you know, three, four, five international move affect compensation when we look at it for this, you know, set of alumni, as you mentioned, 1300 or so MBA alumni. And we start counting these moves, by the way, after they've finished their MBA and already kind of started off in one country. So when they move again after that, we count that as one international move. And some ways we're kind of being conservative or, you know, about the number of moves that they're making. And what we find, as you're saying there, is a little bit surprising. We find that people who only move once or twice after their MBA internationally, those one or two moves are associated with kind of long-term pay penalties. So they're paid less both immediately, but also sort of in a longer term that we're looking at some of these folks, you know, up to many years after they've graduated from the MBA program. Whereas people who've moved many times, so that, you know, three, four, five times, are getting positive pay premiums by the time that they've moved that many times internationally. And for the ones who've moved really many, many times, that can be a substantial premium. So it's not anything that you think that impact short or long-term, it's more how many moves have taken on how does that affect you?

是的，基本上就是这样，但我们需要非常小心地理解。这并不是真的关于短期和长期的问题，而是关于你在职业生涯中进行了多少次全球性的、国际性的国家音乐之旅。所以我们研究的是，一个国际性的音乐之旅会如何对你的报酬产生长期影响？当我们研究这一部分校友群体（你提到的约1300名MBA校友）时，三、四、五次国际性音乐之旅对报酬产生了怎样的影响？而在此之前，我们开始计算这些移动，是在他们完成MBA学业后，已经在一个国家开始了职业生涯。所以当他们再次搬迁时，我们将其视为一次国际性移动。在某种程度上，我们对他们的移动次数持保守态度。正如你所说，我们发现有些结果有点令人惊讶。我们发现，在MBA之后只搬迁一到两次的人，这一或两次搬迁与长期报酬的减少有关。所以他们不仅立即报酬较低，我们还观察到了一些人从MBA项目毕业到多年后的较长时期内报酬都较低。而那些多次搬迁的人，即三、四、五次搬迁的人，在这么多次国际性搬迁之后获得了正向的报酬溢价。而对于那些搬迁了很多次的人来说，这可能是一笔可观的溢价。所以这并不是影响短期或者长期的问题，而是关于你进行了多少次移动，以及它对你产生了怎样的影响。

So then why is it, do you think that those, that component of multiple moves has the potential to have that benefit? Yeah. So those really sort of two big questions that come out of our findings.

那么你认为为什么那种多次行动中的那个组成部分可能具有那样的好处呢？是的，这是我们研究结果中引发的两个非常重要的问题。

And that's one of them, right? So one is kind of how do they, why is it the one or two moves a negative? And then why is it that multiple moves are positive, right? And so you're asking the second part of that.

这就是其中之一，对吧？那么第一部分是关于他们如何以及为什么一两步是负面的，而多步是积极的，对吧？所以你在问第二部分。

So why is it that people who've moved many times really see the premium? And you know, that was something we explored quite a lot. There is quite a bit of literature. There's literature that's saying, there's research that says that, you know, things can be, moves can be difficult for people's careers. And there's also, on the other hand, research that says, you know, moving internationally can help people gain really valuable knowledge and skills and increase their, you know, networks and become more kind of flexible and agile and adaptable when you put them in new context.

那么为什么那些经历过多次搬迁的人会更加看重这个地方呢？这是我们进行了很多探讨的问题。有相当多的文献支持这一观点。有研究表明，搬家可能对人们的职业产生困难。另一方面，也有研究表明，国际搬迁可以帮助人们获得宝贵的知识和技能，增加他们的人际网络，并使他们在新环境中更具灵活性、敏捷性和适应性。

And so the positive effects that we're seeing for people who've moved many times really seem to be due to those kinds of reasons. We actually did a bunch of additional interviews with some of the people who've moved many, many times in our study. And we really kind of came to see that what we call these superglobals, right? People who've moved multiple times four or more times, superglobals, were people who really seem to require a really unusual, distinctive set of knowledge and skills, right? They were really people who, who, who, what they gained is the real ability to work internationally. And that was really valuable for certain terms and certain roles in those terms.

所以我们看到的对于多次搬迁的人所产生的积极影响似乎真的是由于这些原因。在我们的研究中，我们实际上还对一些曾多次搬迁的人进行了一系列额外的访谈。我们真的发现了我们所称之为“超级全球人”，对吧？也就是那些搬家四次或更多次的人，他们似乎真的需要一套非常特殊、独特的知识和技能。他们真的是那些真正能够在国际上工作的人。而在某些条件下和某些角色中，这确实是非常有价值的。

And so it was a really, and by the time you get to people who've moved that much, it's a really similar labor market, right? So these people are already rare, which means that they can come on very high premiums. And frankly, by the time you've moved that much, you're not going to want to move again unless you're going to be paid a lot for it, right? So they also kind of had a motivation as well as on the ability to command, you know, very high salaries at that point in their careers. So on the, on the positive side, right, the people who've moved a lot, they were just unique people in the, in the labor market and really valuable against the some firms and for some roles.

因此，通过时间的推移，你会发现那些经验丰富的人，他们所处的劳动力市场非常相似，对吧？所以这些人本来就很稀缺，这意味着他们可以得到非常高额的薪酬。而且说实话，当你已经经历了那么多次跳槽后，你不会想再次搬家，除非你为此得到了很高的报酬，对吧？所以他们在这个阶段的职业生涯中不仅具备了能力，而且也有动力来争取非常高的薪水。因此，在积极的一面来看，那些经历了很多次跳槽的人，在劳动力市场上是独一无二的，对于一些公司和职位来说具有非常高的价值。

So there is a level, a perception, I guess, by firms about that component of international mobility. Yeah, I think that's right. But again, it seems to be, you know, surprisingly, in some sense, depending what you're expecting, surprisingly limited to people who've really moved a lot, right? And on the other end of the spectrum, people who've moved once or twice, and again, this is, you know, very salient for folks who are at early stage of their careers and sort of thinking about, do I want to move at all or do I want to move, you know, a lot if I do move internationally.

所以对于国际流动的这一部分，企业似乎有一种层次、一种感知，我想是这样。是的，我想是这样的。但是，令人惊讶的是，在某种程度上，它似乎又非常有限，取决于你的期望。这对那些真正经历了很多次国际流动的人来说是令人惊讶的。而在另一端，那些只经历过一两次国际流动的人，对于他们来说，这是非常重要的。这对那些处于职业早期阶段、正在思考自己是否想要国际流动，或者如果确实要国际流动的话是否想要频繁国际流动的人来说，这种限制尤为突出。

For those people, you know, you can't expect that firms are going to value your one or two international moves is what our data seem to reveal in terms of higher compensation. So we didn't find that those people benefited financially from one or two international moves. In fact, we found that there was a, it was negative for them, right? Not just neutral, but negative. So people who had moved once or twice actually received lower compensation at a time than comparable people who haven't moved at all, right?

对于那些人来说，你知道的，我们的数据显示，不能期望公司会因为你的一两次国际调动而高度认可你，尤其是在薪酬方面。所以我们并未发现那些人在一两次国际调动之后在经济上受益。事实上，我们发现对于他们来说，这是负面的，对他们的影响不仅仅是中性的，而是负面的。因此，相比那些从未调动过的人，只进行了一两次调动的人在同一时期的薪酬要更低。

Right. And remember, we're not talking about moves between firms here, we're talking about moves internationally, some of which are within firms and some of which are between firms, right? And so why is that, you know, I think the reason is partly that firms may not be valuing the knowledge and skills that you gain in one or two other countries that highly, right? There's some value to that, but there's also some deference that, you know, some detriment to that, right? Relative to somebody else who has worked, you know, all that career in, you know, your home country, right? And so you might want to promote that person who really understands who have country more than somebody who's actually spent some time somewhere else. Maybe they have something valuable, maybe they don't, right? So it's not clearly beneficial in that way.

对，记住，我们讨论的不是公司之间的调动，而是国际间的调动，其中一部分是公司内部的，一部分是公司之间的，对吗？所以，为什么呢，我认为原因部分是公司可能不太重视在其他国家获得的知识和技能，对吗？这方面是有一些价值的，但也有一些缺点，相对于一个在你家乡国家工作了一生的人来说，他们可能更倾向于提拔那些真正了解自己国家的人，而不是那些在其他地方待过一段时间的人。也许他们有很有价值的东西，也可能没有。所以从这个角度来看，并不明显有益。

And it's also the case that people remove, you know, just once or twice, they're often doing that for a whole range of reasons that I'm not just about compensation. They're not necessarily trying to maximize their compensation, although, of course, we always, you know, want to do that as well, right? But a lot of those people are going to move because they want the adventure, they want the personal enrichment. They think that over time, there's going to open up new professional opportunities for them, which probably it does, right? But they're not necessarily out there trying to maximize compensation about all else. It's just one of many things.

而且，人们不仅仅因为赔偿而离职一两次，他们通常出于多种原因这样做，这些原因不仅限于赔偿。他们并不一定试图最大化自己的报酬，当然，我们总是希望这样，对吧？但其中很多人之所以离职是因为他们渴望冒险，希望得到个人成长。他们认为随着时间推移，将会为他们开拓新的职业机会，这一点可能是正确的，不是吗？但他们并不一定为了最大化赔偿而努力。这只是其中的众多因素之一。

So again, we have the slightly, I think, surprising finding to people who, you know, it would be, you know, don't assume that if you move internationally, that's going to help your pay over time. It might help your career in also other ways as well as your personal, you know, life. But there can be, you know, negative effects on compensation. If you only move on to trust me. If you keep moving, you're going to see longer-term potential benefits, right?

所以，我们再次发现了一个稍微令人惊讶的结论，对于那些认为移民他国会有助于薪资提高的人来说可能会感到意外。虽然移民可能会在其他方面对你的职业生涯和个人生活有所帮助，但薪资方面可能会产生负面影响。如果你只是一直在不停地搬迁，相信我，你会看到更长期的潜在利益，对吧？

Let me circle back on something because that component of even within a company moving from one culture to the other. And maybe this occurs more so when that first move or that second move occurs is that the perception at times, and I've heard this referred to, that whether or not that move, that first move or that second move brings different challenges of working in one culture and going to another. And whether or not that has any impact on that mindset of compensation. But then after you've made three, four, five changes in life, you've been a part of so many different cultures that you have that kind of broader experience.

让我稍后回来解释一下，因为即使在一个公司内部，从一个文化转变到另一个文化也是有很大差异的。也许当第一次或第二次转变发生时，人们会有这样的感觉，即这种转变是否会带来不同的工作挑战，特别是在不同文化中工作的情况下。这是否会对薪酬观念产生任何影响。但是当你经历了三、四、五次变化之后，成为了许多不同文化的一部分，你就拥有了更广泛的经验。

Yeah, I think that's really right. And it kind of gets back to my, you know, starting to talk about at the beginning, these sort of cosmopolitan, right? People who really moved a lot, we're calling them go through on supergloveals in the study, cosmopolitan, there's another way for them. You know, you just acquire a really different kind of set of skills and adaptability and you're not necessarily rooting anywhere, but you're learning to operate really easily and effectively and pretty quickly in a lot of different environments, right?

是的，我认为这是非常正确的。这也与我之前在开头提到的那些世界主义者有些关联，对吧？那些经常搬家的人，我们在研究中称之为"cosmopolitan"，对他们来说也是一种方式。你知道，他们会获得一种非常不同的技能和适应能力，并且不一定有一个确定的根基，但他们学会在很多不同的环境中非常轻松、有效地并且相当快速地运作，对吧？

And it's certainly the case, and there's a lot of research to show this, that, you know, when you first move internationally, it can be really very difficult, right? There's a lot of adaptation that needs to take place. And people often underrate how difficult that's going to be for them. And so there is evidence from prior research that, you know, international moves when people come back, you know, expatriates who come back to their home country, it can actually be associated with, you know, difficulty adjusting, difficulty readjusting, sometimes with, you know, promotions actually being less likely to happen. And sometimes that's because, you know, again, you acquire some valuable knowledge and skills, but you also lose some things, right? You don't develop or maintain your local networks in the same way, right? And so there is definitely a mixed bag and that cultural adaptation piece is part of a learning curve that can be really hard for people in the early days. And again, people do get, I think, more, and I see this again as my MBA students, like more facile and more able to do this the more they do it, right? But it is a skill we can learn really well at this time.

而且可以确定的是，有很多研究表明，当你第一次移民到国际上时，可能会非常困难，对吗？需要进行很多适应。而人们通常低估了这对他们来说会有多困难。因此，有先前研究的证据表明，当人们回到自己的祖国时，国际移民实际上可能导致难以适应，难以重新适应，有时也可能导致晋升的可能性较小。有时候这是因为，你确实获得了一些有价值的知识和技能，但你也会失去一些东西，对吗？你不会像以前那样发展或维护你的本地网络。因此，这确实是一个复杂的问题，这种文化适应是一个学习曲线，在早期阶段对人们来说可能非常困难。而且，我觉得人们做得越多，就越能游刃有余，我在我的MBA学生们身上也看到了这一点，他们可以更加顺利地进行这方面的工作。但这是我们现在可以很好地学习的一项技能。

Does potentially this element around compensation, does it differ in terms of certain countries over others? Were you able to determine that or is that just, you know, kind of on the outside edges here?

这个潜在的补偿因素，在某些国家是否与其他国家有所不同？你能确定这一点还是只是在外部边缘上的想法？

Yeah, I mean, we're really interested to look at this because, you know, our data set is unusually large for being able to look at people who are internationally mobile. You know, they're a very unusual population in some ways, right? They are very international people. And so that means that there was actually a lot of variation on what we call heterogeneity, right, in the data set, right? So we have people who have moved within firms and between firms who have moved to many different countries and cities within those countries. You know, we have people who have moved within regions or between geographic regions. So we looked at all of that to try to see whether there were, you know, noticeable patterns. And interestingly enough, in some sense, we didn't see a lot of differences in moves, you know, within firms versus between the returns in terms of how moving internationally within terms of between the effects of compensation.

是的，我的意思是，我们对这个感兴趣是因为我们的数据集对于研究国际流动人口来说异常庞大。你知道，他们在某些方面是非常特殊的人群，对吧？他们是非常国际化的人。因此，这意味着我们所谓的数据集中存在着很多异质性。我们有那些在公司内部和公司之间移动的人，他们移居了很多不同的国家和国内的城市。我们有那些在地区内部或地区之间移动的人。因此，我们研究了所有这些，试图看看是否存在明显的规律。有趣的是，在某种程度上，我们并没有看到在公司内部和公司之间的移动对薪酬影响方面有太大差异的地方。

And we didn't really see, but we weren't really looking for moves to particular countries. We actually controlled that in our analysis. So all our results are looking at kind of nettive, which particular countries you're talking about. But one thing we did see a little bit of evidence for, but it wasn't very strong, was that they did seem to be a bigger premium to move between regions than within regions. And so these sort of longer international moves, which again, has to do probably with these superglobals who are really making, you know, these very global careers moving across regions of the world a lot. There was a bit of a seem to be a little bit advantageous, as opposed to, for example, people who are moving a lot within Europe. Right. But it was not very strong. I mean, it's not a strong payment we can make from the data.

我们实际上没有真正看到，但我们也没有特别寻找某个国家的数据。我们在分析中实际上控制了这一点。因此，我们所有的结果都是从总体来看的，具体到你所说的各个国家。但有一件事我们确实找到了一些证据，尽管不是很强，那就是在地区间迁移与地区内迁移相比，似乎存在更高的溢价。这可能与那些在全球范围内从事跨地区职业的超级全球人士有关。相较于那些在欧洲内频繁迁移的人来说，这种跨国迁移似乎会有一些优势。但这并不是一个我们可以从数据中得出很强的结论。

I would assume that in speaking with all of these different MBAs that in terms of putting this research together, it becomes important for those who are considering a career that may have that international component looking forward in terms of having a better understanding of what their expectations should be moving forward, correct?

我会假设，在与所有这些不同的MBA学员交流时，对于那些考虑未来职业可能涉及国际元素的人来说，在将这项研究整合起来方面变得重要，是吗？这样可以更好地理解他们对未来的期望。

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, there's definitely a lot of interest from our students who, again, many of them, you know, not just the law students, but all, you know, MBA students, it's something that many MBA students think about. And many people in their early careers coming out of good universities are thinking about, you know, are they going to try to explore internationally?

是的，我认为这是正确的。我的意思是，我们的学生确实对此很感兴趣，其中许多不仅仅是法学院的学生，还包括所有MBA学生，这是许多MBA学生都在考虑的事情。而且，许多从名校毕业的初入职场的人也在思考他们是否会尝试国际化发展。

And, you know, I think in terms of advice, as you know, just saying, it's kind of recognizing that compensation is only one of many things, right? And you shouldn't assume again that, you know, this is necessarily the path to higher compensation unless it's something moving internationally or something that you're going to want to keep doing throughout your career.

嗯，你知道的，我认为从建议的角度来看，只是说说而已，就是要认识到报酬只是众多事物中的一个，并不意味着它一定是获得更高报酬的唯一途径，除非是涉及国际转岗或者你在整个职业生涯中都想继续从事的工作。

It may be that there's, you know, mixed benefits and costs moving internationally, and you've got to think for yourself, right? You know, how much do I want the experience? Am I going to really enjoy this? Is it going to expose me to things I wouldn't otherwise do? Is it going to be enriching for me? Don't do it just for the pay because it's, you know, it's not necessarily going to benefit you that way.

在国际间移动可能存在好与坏的混合效益，你必须自己思考一下，对吧？你要想一想，我有多想要这种经历？我会真的喜欢这样吗？它会让我接触到其他我原本不会做的事情吗？它会对我有所启发吗？不要只是为了薪水而这样做，因为可能并不会对你有益。

You know, on the other hand, if you're, if you are only doing it for the pay, then you would only move. If there was higher pay and you can negotiate that as your primary, you know, concern and not do it otherwise, right? So you can, you can make it pay more for you and, or otherwise not do it, right? And they're probably some folks like that in our data sets.

你知道的，另一方面，如果你只是为了薪水而做这件事，那么你只会转换工作。如果有更高的薪水，并且你可以把它作为你主要的关注点进行谈判，否则就不会接受，对吗？所以你可以让它变得更有报酬，否则就不去做，对吗？我们的数据集中可能有一些这样的人。

But for more people, what we're seeing is, you know, it's not this compensation returns. I'm not the main reward to this.

然而对于更多的人来说，我们所看到的并非是补偿回报。我并不是这个的主要受益者。

All right. Martine, great to have you with us. Thanks very much for your time today. Thank you so much. I'm good to talk to you. Take care. You too as well. Martine Haas, who is a director of the Lauder Institute here at the Wharton School in the University of Pennsylvania and also who is a professor of management.

好的。马汀，很高兴有你加入我们。非常感谢你今天抽出时间来。非常感谢。很高兴与你交谈。保重。你也一样。马汀·哈斯是宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院Lauder研究所的主任，也是管理学教授。

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