The True History Of The Knights Templar With Dan Jones - YouTube
发布时间 2022-08-31 00:00:00 来源
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Dan Jones, thanks for coming on the show. My pleasure. They said this would never happen. They said it would never happen. No, the two of us in one's place. It's impossible. Listen, but that's what I say. I love taking all the credit for your books. It gives me enormous pleasure. Your role in my success is much appreciated. Thank you for all your help. They're selling historian Dan Jones as turned his attention to one of history's most notorious military orders, the Knights Templar.
丹·琼斯，感谢您参加节目。很高兴见到您。他们曾说过这种情况永远不会发生。他们说这是不可能的。不，我们两个人在一个地方是不可能的。但这正是我所说的。我喜欢把您的著作归功于我，这让我感到非常愉悦。我非常感谢您在我的成功中所扮演的角色。感谢您的所有帮助。历史学家丹·琼斯转向历史上最臭名昭著的军事团体之一——圣殿骑士团。
So listen, the Templars talk about the Templars. What's it all about? It's about a paradox. The idea of a crusading order, of a military order, is a weird thing if you think about Christianity, for a stop. So, back in the era of the crusades, there was a sort of vogue for setting up military orders. So we have the Templars, the Hospitals, the Deutronic Knights, the Sword brothers of Lebonia, there's a lot of them. But the Templars are the ones that have become most famous.
所以听着，圣殿骑士谈论着圣殿骑士。这意味着什么？这是关于一个悖论。如果你考虑到基督教，一个十字军团的概念，一个军事组织，是一件非常奇怪的事情。所以，在十字军时期，出现了一股设立军事组织的风潮。所以我们有圣殿骑士团、医院骑士团、德意志骑士团、勒波尼亚的剑士兄弟等等，其中有很多。但圣殿骑士团是最著名的那个。
What is a military order? Well, if you can imagine a combination of sort of like a monk, not technically a monk, but a professed religious person, who also happens to be a trained killer, or vice versa, a trained killer who decides to devote his life and his activities to the service of the church. That's what the Templars were effectively. They fought in the front line of the crusades against the enemies of Christ in Palestine, Syria, Egypt, the Spanish kingdoms, Portugal, and so on. All the areas where crusading was going on during the 12th and 13th centuries.
什么是军事佣兵团？嗯，如果你能想象一种类似僧侣的人，虽然不是正式的僧侣，但是是一位宣称的宗教人士，同时也是一名受过训练的杀手，或者相反，是一名受过训练的杀手决定将他的生活和活动奉献给教会。这就是聖殿騎士团（Templars）的实质。他们在十二、十三世纪期间的巴勒斯坦、叙利亚、埃及、西班牙王国、葡萄牙等地的十字军战争前线战斗，对抗基督教的敌人。
But this was a peculiar thing. And people at the time did notes that it was odd, that a trained killer could say, I'm going to continue killing, maiming, injuring, fighting people. But instead of this being homicide, it will be malicide. It will be the killing of evil, and that God will be super happy with me, because I killed some Muslims, or, you know, pagans, or any non-Christian. Whereas if I were killing Christians, it would be a bad thing.
但是这是一件很奇怪的事情。当时的人们确实注意到这是不正常的，一个训练有素的杀手居然能够说出：“我要继续杀戮、伤害、斗争。但与其说这是谋杀，更应该称之为邪恶杀戮，是对邪恶的消灭，上帝会非常高兴，因为我杀掉了一些穆斯林，或者，你知道的，异教徒，或任何非基督徒。而如果我杀害的是基督徒，那就是坏事了。”
And so, is this a reflection of the fact that crusades weren't, I mean, I know nation-state didn't really exist, but they weren't at kind of national endeavors. It wasn't like France and England went and invaded the Middle East. Was it just this opportunity for sort of mercenaries and non-governmental bodies to fill that space?
那么，这是否反映了十字军东征并非像国家行动那样的事实呢？我的意思是，我知道当时并不存在现代的国家体制，但十字军东征并非由法国和英国等国家共同入侵中东地区。那么，这只是提供了赚钱军队和非政府组织填补这个空白的机会吗？
Well, if we start with the. To answer that, I think we can just think about how the Templars came into being, which is 119-1120 in Jerusalem. So we're talking 20 years after the fall of Jerusalem, to the Western, Christian, the Frankish armies of the first crusade. Jerusalem had been in Muslim hands, 1099, it fell to Christian hands. Now, we know from travel diaries written by pilgrims in the 20 years that followed. Lots of Christians from the West, from, in fact, everywhere from Russia to Scotland, Scandinavia, France, all over the place. We're going to Jerusalem on pilgrimage, newly Christian Jerusalem.
嗯，如果我们从此处开始回答这个问题。我认为我们可以从圣殿骑士团的形成开始思考，这是在耶路撒冷119-1120年间发生的。所以我们说的是在耶路撒冷沦陷给第一次十字军东征的西方基督教法兰克军队后的20年。耶路撒冷曾经在1099年由穆斯林占领，之后被基督教势力夺回。现在，我们从那之后20年由朝圣者们写的旅行日记中得知。许多来自西方的基督徒，事实上从俄罗斯到苏格兰、斯堪的纳维亚、法国等地，纷纷前往新近基督化的耶路撒冷进行朝圣。
But the travel diaries recorded, A, the us of Ardern, the hardship of that journey. But also just how dangerous it was. You know, you were walking into a very unstable countryside. And if you went to Jerusalem and then started, you know, you wanted to take a trip to Nazareth, to Bethlehem, to see if Galilee, to the Dead, see, whatever, all of these pilgrims note in their diaries, sort of what I did on my holiday journal. It was incredibly dangerous. As you walked along the roadside, you would see dead bodies lying there who'd been attacked by brigands, had their throats slit and their money taken. And the roads were too dangerous even to stop and bury them, because, you know, one pilgrim writes, anyone who did that would be digging a grave for himself.
然而，旅行日记中记录着，A、阿尔德恩的艰辛旅程。但同时也记录了这次旅行是多么危险。你知道，你是进入一个非常不稳定的乡村。如果你去了耶路撒冷，然后开始，你想去纳撒勒、伯利恒、加利利湖、死海，等等，所有这些朝圣者都在他们的日记中提到，就像是写我度假时的日记。这是极其危险的。当你沿着路边走时，你会看到那里躺着被强盗袭击、喉咙被割断并抢走钱财的尸体。而且路途太过危险，连停下来埋葬他们都不敢，因为你知道，其中一位朝圣者写道，任何这样做的人都会为自己挖掘一个坟墓。
So around 1119, a French, a knight from Champagne called Hugh of Pan, decided that he was going to do something about it. So he and some of his buddies, you know, one of the councils, they were nine of them, another sister of a 30, but a small group of knights got together, hung out at the church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. And said, you know, we should do something about this. We should set up a sort of roadside rescue service to guard pilgrims. There was already a hospital in Jerusalem, a pilgrim hospital, run by what became the hospitalers. They said, you know, people need assistance on the roads. They need guarding. So they were like a private security agency in hostile terrain. And so that was really the problem that the Templars were set up to solve. But very quickly, they expanded beyond their brief and became something else entirely.
所以大约在1119年，来自香槟的法国骑士休·潘（Hugh of Pan）决定采取一些行动。于是他和他的几个朋友，你知道的，他们是一个委员会的成员，他们有九个，还有一个30人的姐妹团，但是一小群骑士聚在一起，在耶路撒冷的圣墓教堂待了一会。然后他们说，你知道的，我们应该解决这个问题。我们应该建立一种类似道路救援服务的东西来保护朝圣者。在耶路撒冷已经有一个医院，一个朝圣者医院，由后来成为医院骑士团的人管理。他们说，你知道的，人们在路上需要帮助。他们需要保护。所以他们就像是在险恶地带的私人安保机构。这实际上是圣殿骑士团设置的问题。但是很快，他们超越了自己的职责，并成为完全不同的存在。
But why was it about the New World that allowed these organisations to sort of flourish and take on a quasi, I don't know, almost governmental characters? I mean, they sort of, they all got, it's like they all got injected with steroids and they became these huge institutions, didn't they?
但是为什么新世界能让这些组织蓬勃发展，并具有几乎像政府那样的特质呢？我的意思是，它们似乎都被注入了类固醇，成为了庞大的机构，不是吗？
They did, so. The Templars, like the hospitalers and like the Deutonic Knights, were an international military order. So while they had been granted early in their history, the Templars, this is approval, headquarters and so on, by the king of, the Christian king of Jerusalem, Baldwin II, really their power and their legitimacy sprang from their relationship with the Pope. And they were, by a series of papal edicts and bulls, taken under the papal wing.
他们确实如此做了。圣殿骑士团，像医院骑士团和德意志骑士团一样，是一个国际性的军事组织。尽管在早期历史中，圣殿骑士团得到了耶路撒冷的基督教国王巴尔丁二世的批准、总部等，但他们的实力和合法性真正源自他们与教皇的关系。通过一系列教皇法令和教皇诏书，他们被纳入了教皇的翼下。
And so the Templars were effectively answerable only to the Pope, which meant that, they didn't pay very many taxes, which meant that they weren't under the authority of local bishops or archbishops, which meant that they could own property and place themselves in multiple jurisdictions without being truly answerable to the local king or lord or whatever it was. They had a uniform which, and a flag which was of themselves and not, you know, not that of another authority.
因此，圣殿骑士团事实上只向教皇负责，这意味着他们不需要交很多税，也就意味着他们不受当地主教或大主教的权威约束，也就意味着他们可以拥有财产并在多个司法管辖区内活动，而不需要真正向当地国王或领主等负责。他们有自己的制服和旗帜，不属于其他权威机构。
So they were really like a global organisation in modern terms. To think about how Google operates today, or any of these big multinational companies that are able to have headquarters here and there, but a richer animal, powerful than in many cases than some states, and are beyond the discipline of states in many ways. I think it's quite a problem that has, it's modern equivalent.
所以从现代角度来看，他们真的像是一个全球化组织。想想如今的谷歌运营方式，或者其他一些大型跨国公司，它们能够在这里那里都设立总部，但它们比很多国家更强大、更有实力，并且在很多方面超越国家的约束力。我认为这是一个相当大的问题，它有着现代等价物。
And so quite rapidly, they start to get buildings and premises, and how does that, I think, they become sort of almost land owners. So after the Templars were founded in Jerusalem, and they began this job of pilgrim duty, they were smart, and they operated through networks of important families back in France, back in England, and gained the patronage and the approval and favour of powerful people. And that meant two things.
所以相当迅速地，他们开始得到建筑物和场地，我认为，就这样，他们几乎成为了土地的主人。所以在耶路撒冷成立了圣殿骑士团之后，他们开始履行朝圣者的职责，他们聪明地通过法国和英格兰重要家族的网络运作，并获得了有权势的人们的赞助、认可和支持。这意味着两件事情。
One, that they were recruiting members from among the sort of nightly class, people who were already trained to fight, wanted to fight, wanted to go on pilgrims to the Holy Land, and were attracted by the idea of joining an organisation that could help them do that. But of course that wasn't everybody, and you know, a lot of people might approve of the Templars, but not necessarily wish to sign up, you know. So they accrued a lot in donations, donations of land, donations of money, donations of property, and that ranged from the top end of the scale, Alfonso I, King of Aragon, left them in his will a third of his kingdom.
一方面，他们从夜间的社会中招募成员，这些人已经接受过战斗训练，渴望战斗，渴望去圣地朝圣，并且被加入一个能够帮助他们实现这个愿望的组织的想法所吸引。但当然，并不是每个人都这样，你知道，很多人可能会赞同圣殿骑士，但不一定愿意加入，你知道的。因此，他们积累了很多捐赠，包括土地捐赠、金钱捐赠、财产捐赠，其中包括了从高端的捐赠，如阿拉贡国王阿方索一世，在他的遗嘱中将他王国的三分之一留给了他们。
They claimed it, but he left them in his will the third of his kingdom. On the other end of the scale, ordinary men and women were dying and leaving the Templars, what little they had, a coat, a couple of animals, half, share in a vineyard, this sort of, you know. So they accrued all these enormous donations from right through the social scale in Western Christendom.
他们宣称这个，但他在遗嘱中将他王国的三分之一留给了他们。另一方面，普通人们正在死去，他们只留给圣殿骑士团那一点点东西，一件外套，几只动物，诸如此类的东西。所以他们从整个西方基督教社会中积累了大量的捐赠。尽管捐赠规模差异很大，但人们都在为他们奉献。
And one of their early successes was to organise that property, to organise that wealth into a system whereby they set up houses called commandaries or perceptories, linked together in a hierarchy, answerable ultimately to a grandmaster in Jerusalem, and which were very efficient at funneling their profits to war zones, mainly Syria, Palestine, Egypt, or to the Spanish kingdoms where the Reconquista was taking aim at the membersland forces in southern Spain.
他们早期的成功之一就是将这些财产，将这些财富组织成一个系统，他们设立了一系列被称为指令或住所的房屋，通过一个层级系统联系在一起，最终向耶路撒冷的总大师负责。这些系统非常高效地将他们的利润输送到战争地区，主要是叙利亚、巴勒斯坦、埃及，或是对付西班牙王国的领地部队，而这个王国正在南部地区进行回教徒收复行动。
And would you just ask about this? Were they any good at protecting the pilgrims or did they become big and massive money making it exciting? Well, they were pretty good at protecting the pilgrims. We have lots of accounts of Templars skirmishing, really. So, although their military function by the middle of the 12th century became equivalent to some special forces, the vanguard or the rear guard of proper big crusading armies, they were pulling special ops effectively. They were the kind of green berets, navy seals of the crusading army.
你能问一下这个吗？他们在保护朝圣者方面表现如何？他们变得庞大并且利益丰厚吗？嗯，他们在保护朝圣者方面表现相当出色。我们有很多关于圣殿骑士团与敌人发生小规模冲突的记载，确实如此。因此，尽管到12世纪中叶，他们的军事职能已经相当于某些特种部队，负责大规模的十字军军队的前卫或后卫，他们在特种作战方面也非常出色。他们是十字军军队中类似于绿帽子军、海豹突击队的存在。
They were also, particularly in the Holy Land, manning castles, watching the roads, manning the mountain passes. They were there to protect pilgrims as they went about. It was still a very dangerous place, but I think there was an awareness. Certainly there was an awareness on the Muslim side. We have lots of Muslim chronicles. When they mention the Templars, it's with a degree of a healthy degree of respect.
在圣地，他们还负责守城、监视道路和山口。他们的任务是保护朝圣者的安全。圣地仍然非常危险，但我认为人们有所认识。穆斯林方面肯定也有认知。我们有很多穆斯林编年史，当他们提到圣殿骑士团时，带着一定的尊重。
One Islamic chronicle, Ibn Al-Aatir, says they were the fiercest fighters of all the Franks. If you saw them coming, you knew you had problems.
一个伊斯兰编年史《伊本·阿提尔》称他们是所有法兰克人中最凶猛的战士。如果你看到他们来了，你就知道麻烦来了。
And how did they get on? Because this sounds to me like a massive jurisdiction problem. How did they get on with all the other nightly orders or the government such as it was out in the Holy Land? It was really variable, it's the short answer. And over time, the relations between the Templars and, let's say, the kings of Jerusalem moved up and down along with the character, the personality, the goals of the Templar masters and the individual kings.
他们的情况如何？因为对我来说，这听起来像是一个大规模的管辖问题。他们与其他夜间组织或当时在圣地的政府之间的关系如何发展？总的来说，这种情况是多变的。随着圣殿骑士团团长和君主的性格、个人目标的变化，圣殿骑士团与耶路撒冷国王之间的关系也时好时坏。
So one good example might be Amorak I, King Jerusalem in the mid-12th century, who had a very rocky relationship with the Templars, because on the one hand, he recognized that they were extremely necessary parts of the make-up of the Crusader Kingdom. They manned castles, they defended pilgrims, they served in his armies. If he wanted to go down and fight in Egypt, he would take the Templars with him, he used the Emperor Envoy, and so on and so forth.
一个很好的例子可能是12世纪中叶的耶路撒冷国王阿莫拉克一世，他与圣殿骑士团的关系非常紧张。一方面，他承认他们是十字军王国组成部分中非常必要的一部分。他们驻扎在城堡中，保护朝圣者，为他的军队服务。如果他想去埃及打仗，他会带上圣殿骑士团，他还使用了帝国使者等等。
On the other hand, the Templars caused him a lot of problems because they weren't technically answerable to his authority and they were in some sense a rogue agent. So Amorak I got into it with the assassins, Shiites sect in the mountains of what's now Syria. And he was trying to broker a peace deal with the assassins. Assassins were a sect who specialized in spectacular public murder. They were more or less a terrorist organization. They wouldn't touch the Templars because they realized the futility of murdering Templars because it was effectively, in effect, a deathless corporation. If you killed a Templar, it was like Wacomol, another one would spring up and take his uniform in his place.
另一方面，圣殿骑士团给他带来了很多问题，因为他们在技术上不需要向他负责，而且从某种意义上说，他们是个不受控制的代理人。阿莫拉克与在现在的叙利亚山区的刺客教派发生了冲突。他试图与刺客教派达成和平协议。刺客教派是一个专门从事公开惊人谋杀的教派。他们可以说是一个恐怖组织。他们不会触碰圣殿骑士团，因为他们意识到谋杀圣殿骑士的无效性，因为圣殿骑士团可以说是一个不灭的组织。如果你杀死一个圣殿骑士，就像瓦科莫尔一样，另一个会涌现出来穿上他的制服。
So, in fact, the assassins were paying tribute to the Templars to be left alone. But Amorak as King of Jerusalem was interested in a peace deal with the assassins. A peace deal between the assassins and the King of Jerusalem didn't suit the Templars because it would mean the end of the tribute to the assassins were paying to them. So, they unilaterally decided to murder the assassin Envoy and scupper the deal, which they did. King Amorak absolutely furious, understandably, found that he wasn't really able to do very much about it. He went to the master of the order and said, I can't believe you've done this. And the master said, yes, it is a shame, isn't it? I know what. I'll send the guy who did it to Rome for judgment before the Pope.
因此，事实上，刺客们是在向圣殿骑士付出贡品以保持平安。但作为耶路撒冷国王的Amorak对与刺客们达成和平协议很感兴趣。刺客和耶路撒冷国王之间的和平协议不适合圣殿骑士，因为这意味着刺客们向他们支付贡品的结束。因此，他们单方面决定谋杀刺客使者并破坏协议，他们成功了。国王Amorak非常愤怒，可以理解，但他发现他无法做太多事情来解决这个问题。他去找秩序的大师说，我简直不敢相信你这么做了。大师说，是的，这真是个遗憾，不是吗？我知道了。我会把那个干这事的人送到罗马去接受教皇的审判。
I mean, totally infuriating because it's just sticking two fingers up at the King of Jerusalem and saying, we might be here in your kingdom, but your so-called authority means nothing to us and we'll pursue our own policies. And you'd better fit in with them. So, they were quite good at making enemies. And those enemies ultimately contribute to their downfall? Yeah, so if we fast forward to the beginning of the. Well, the end of the 13th century, beginning of the 14th century. In 1291, the Crusader states were basically wiped out by Mamluk forces from Egypt. The Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem relocated to Cyprus along with the couple of hundred Templars.
我的意思是，完全令人恼火，因为它就是对耶路撒冷国王竖起了两根中指，告诉他们说，我们可能在你的王国里，但你所谓的权威对我们毫无意义，我们将追求自己的政策。你最好跟上。所以，他们非常擅长结交敌人。这些敌人最终导致了他们的覆灭？是的，所以如果我们快进到13世纪末、14世纪初。在1291年，十字军国家基本上被埃及的马木留克力量所摧毁。耶路撒冷的十字军王国与几百名圣殿骑士一起迁往塞浦路斯。
And then the inquest began, if you like. So from 1291, for about the next 15 years, people started to wonder why the Crusader states had been lost. And a certain amount of blame, some fair, most of it unfair, was leveled at the Templars and the Hospitals. As military orders, it was their duty to guard the people and property in Jerusalem manifestly they had failed in that duty. So there was a lot of call for reform and reorganization of the military orders. The idea that they might be rolled into one super order and so on. People were running tracts and all sorts of with this now.
然后，如果你愿意的话，调查就开始了。从1291年开始的大约15年里，人们开始想知道为什么十字军国家会失陷。有一些责任被归咎于圣殿骑士团和医院骑士团，其中一部分责任是合理的，大部分是不公平的。作为军事组织，他们的职责是保护耶路撒冷的人民和财产，显然他们在这个职责上失败了。所以有很多呼吁对军事组织进行改革和重组。有人认为他们可能会被合并成一个超级骑士团等等。现在人们纷纷撰写各种传单来支持这个想法。
Move to 1306, all of this began to intersect with domestic politics and to an extent foreign policy in France. France, the heartland of the Templars, France, it's traditionally its strongest recruiting ground. France, where the Templars had bailed out French kings when they'd been taking prisoner on crusade, where they'd saved French crusading army, where they'd subcontracted for a hundred years the treasury business of the French crown. France was safe for the Templars. Also, they thought until the reign of Philip IV.
从1306年开始，所有的这一切开始与法国的国内政治和一定程度上的外交政策交织在一起。法国是圣殿骑士团的大本营，也是他们传统上最强大的招募基地。在法国，圣殿骑士团曾经解救过被俘的法国国王，拯救过法国十字军军队，连续一百年为法国皇室承包财务业务。法国对圣殿骑士团来说是安全的，直到菲利普四世统治时期。
Philip IV was engaged in a long struggle against the papacy and a number of popes, but most particularly one called Boniface VIII, whom he really hounded to death in 1303. But after Boniface's death, still wanted to dig him up and put him on trial for a concoction of charges, corruption, heresy, sodomy, sorcery, you name it. The problem really was that Boniface had refused to allow Philip to tax the church in France.
菲利普四世长期与教皇及一些教宗展开了一场激烈的斗争，特别是他极力逼死的那位波尼法斯八世，这发生在1303年。但在波尼法斯去世后，他仍然希望将他挖出来，以一系列罪名将其审判，包括贪污、异端、淫乱、巫术等等。问题的关键在于波尼法斯拒绝允许菲利普对法国教堂征税。
Put that aside for a second. Philip was also in desperate need for cash. It's often said, oh, Philip was in debt to the Templars. It's not quite that simple. Philip had a massive structural problem with the French economy, which was twofold. One, he'd overspent massively on wars against France, against Aragon, against Flanders. Two, there was a general shortage of silver in Europe, and he couldn't physically make enough coin. This illusion had been to successive devaluations of the French currency.
暂时把那个放在一边。菲利普也急需现金。人们常说，哦，菲利普欠圣殿骑士团的债。情况并不那么简单。菲利普在法国经济上有严重的结构性问题，有两个方面。一方面，他在与法国、阿拉贡和佛兰德斯的战争上花费过多。另一方面，欧洲普遍缺少银币，他无法生产足够的硬币。这一幻觉导致法国货币多次贬值。
The economy, to put it simply, the French economy was in the toilet, and Philip was casting about for ways to fix it. He tried taxing the church. It brought him into an almighty conflict with the Pope.
简而言之，法国经济糟糕得不可开交，菲利普正苦苦寻找解决方法。他试图对教会征税，却因此与教皇陷入激烈冲突。
He tried in 1306 to attack the Jews of France, whom he expelled en masse. There were 100,000 Jews in France expelled them all. There were 100,000 Jews in France. He expelled them all, took their property. That didn't bring in enough.
他在1306年试图攻击法国的犹太人，将他们集体驱逐出境。法国境内有10万名犹太人，他将他们全部驱逐出境，并夺取了他们的财产。然而这并没有带来足够的收益。
So 1307, he began to look at the Templars as a convenient order whose role was somewhat under question, following the fall of the Crusader states, whom he knew was cash rich and land rich, because they were running French treasury functions out of the temple in Paris. He knew how much physical coin they had. He also knew they were extremely wealthy in terms of their land of the states. They were kind of unpopular, and they were connected with the Pope, and it was in his interest to bash the papacy.
所以在1307年，他开始将圣殿骑士视为一个方便的秩序，他们的角色有些受到质疑，因为在十字军国家覆灭后，他知道他们拥有丰厚的现金和土地，因为他们在巴黎的圣殿负责法国财政功能。他知道他们持有多少实物货币。他还知道他们在国土方面非常富裕。他们有点不受欢迎，并且与教皇有联系，而诋毁教廷符合他的利益。
So he put one, two, three, four together and came up with a plan, which was to arrest en masse all the Templars in France, charge them with a series of sexed up in every sense, accusations, accusations of spitting on the cross, of trampling on images of Christ, of having sort of illicit kissing at their induction ceremonies, of having mandated sodomy between members. If you'd wanted to compile a list of things that would shock people in France in the Middle Ages, this was the charges that were leveled at the Templars.
所以他将一、二、三、四的事情放在一起，并提出了一个计划，即集体逮捕在法国的所有圣殿骑士，控告他们一系列淫乱的指控，包括蔑视十字架、践踏基督形象、在入会仪式上进行非法亲吻、要求成员之间进行恶行。如果你想编列一份在中世纪法国会让人震惊的事物清单，这些指控都是被指控的内容。
On Friday 13th of October 1307, Phillips agents all over France, that dawn, went to every temple house, knocked on the door, presented them with the accusations and arrested them en masse. They were tortured, they were put on show trials, and eventually an enormous amount of evidence was compiled. Eventually an enormous amount of evidence was compiled that appeared to show the Templars were individually guilty of terrible crimes against the Christian faith in church, and as an institution, it redeemably corrupt.
在1307年10月13日的星期五，菲利普派遣的特工们在法国各地，黎明时分，走进每一座圣殿，敲响门铃，将指控书呈上并一网打尽地逮捕了他们。他们遭受了拷打，被进行了公开审判，并最终聚集了大量的证据。这些证据似乎显示圣殿骑士团个别成员犯下了可怕的违背基督教信仰和教会的罪行，而作为一个组织，他们也被认为道德败坏得无可救药。
And was that the end of them? Once that central proper fallen, once that the kings of England and elsewhere immediately go, oh, we'll have some of that as well.
这是否就是它们的结局了？一旦中央权力崩溃，无论是英格兰的国王还是其他地方的国王，立即表示：“我们也要份。”
No, they didn't really. Once the initial reaction to Phillips' attack on the Templars, it seems to have been sort of bafflement. I mean, even Ed with the second, new to the throne in England, not a wonderful or sensible king, couldn't really believe that, you know, he was betrothed at that time and seemed to be married to Phillips' daughter, and so he had an interest in falling in line with the church, but people just sort of shook their heads and, well, what is this guy on? You know, what's going on here? But the process was begun.
不，他们并没有。在菲利普对圣殿骑士的攻击引发了最初的反应之后，人们似乎感到困惑。我的意思是，即使是英国新上任的不出色也不明智的国王爱德华二世，他也没有真正相信他当时已经与菲利普的女儿订婚并似乎已经结婚，所以他对顺应教会有兴趣，但人们只是摇摇头，纳闷这家伙到底在搞什么？这里到底发生了什么？但这个过程开始了。
The Pope at the time, Clement V, was a gaskone. He was more or less a Frenchman. I mean, gaskone was English, but it was also part of France. He was a very pliable. He was a pope that was in Phillips' pocket, let's say. He never took up residence in Rome. He was the first pope to live in Avignon. He was. people saw him as a French puppet. Even for him, it was a little much to countenance, the rolling up of the most famous military order in the world. So he did the best he could, which was to take over the process himself, which was to say to the king for us, you know, this is a church matter. I'm going to take it over, and we're going to investigate the Templars everywhere.
当时的教皇克雷芒五世是个加斯科涅人。他可以说是一个法国人。我的意思是，加斯科涅语是英语，但也是法国的一部分。他非常顺从。我们可以说他是菲利普的傀儡教皇。他从未定居在罗马，而是成为第一位住在阿维尼翁的教皇。人们视他为法国政权的傀儡。即使对他来说，撤销世界上最著名的军事骑士团也有些难以容忍。因此，他尽力而为，也就是自己接管整个处理过程，对国王说，这是教会的事。我会接管，并在全球范围内调查圣殿骑士团。
So that had the effect of then rolling this policy of investigating the Templars out to England and Aragon and Sicily and the Italian states and German states and so on. And, I mean, while the evidence in France, most of it acquired, through torture, was almost uniformly bad, and Templars were lining up to admit that they'd committed grotesque crimes. Everywhere else where torture wasn't really used, there was not much to go on.
于是这一政策传播到了英格兰、阿拉贡、西西里、意大利各城邦和德国各邦等地。而且，我是说，虽然法国的证据大部分是通过酷刑获得的，几乎一概不准确，而且在那里，正有圣殿骑士们排队承认自己犯下了丑恶罪行。在其他地方，酷刑几乎没有使用，没有太多线索可供追踪。
I mean, in England, they sent French inquisitors to look into the English Templars, but they weren't allowed to use torture, and they became incredibly frustrated because they got nowhere with the Templars. They said, you know, did you have sex with each other and kiss each other and spit on Christ's image? And they wouldn't know. And, in fact, there's evidence, which is amazing to me, that the French inquisitors started looking into mass extraordinary rendition for the Templars. They wanted to take them all across the channel to the County of Pontoure, which was another one of these places that was part English, part French, where they could torture them because it would be in France. And you could do things in for. And this is amazing. It didn't happen in the end.
我的意思是，在英格兰，他们派遣法国审判官来调查英国圣殿骑士团，但他们不被允许使用酷刑，结果他们变得非常沮丧，因为他们对圣殿骑士团一无所获。他们问，你们之间有没有发生性行为、互相亲吻，或者对基督的形象进行亵渎？圣殿骑士团成员并不知道。实际上，令我惊讶的是，有证据表明，法国审判官开始寻求将圣殿骑士团群体引渡到庞图尔县，那是一个既属于英格兰又属于法国的地方，他们可以在那里对他们使用酷刑，因为那会在法国发生。你可以尽情为所欲为。令人惊讶的是，最终并没有发生这件事。
Enough evidence was kind of weedled out at the acres. Anyway, you get to 1312. All of this evidence from all of these territories is amassed and sent to a church council, 1311 church council in Vien, near Lyon. And, by 1312, the Templars weren't allowed to represent themselves at this council. The King of France parks an army down the road to make sure the council came up with the right result, but the result was, nevertheless, that the Templars were useless as an organisation. No one will want to join them anymore. They're rolled up and they're shut down. They're gone. And was this a huge boon to the, well, certainly the King of France? I mean, was there long-term value there or was it a bit of a short-term income boost? Much like Philip's attacks on the Jews, he didn't get enough out of it. I mean, we have to assume, although we don't know for sure, that the coin in the Templar treasury in Paris ended up in the French treasury, which would have been a short-term gain in income, but the Templar lands, which were the real wealth, existed, the long-term wealth, were given to the Hospitallers. They were not given to the King of France. So the plan must have been to appropriate this land, but it didn't happen. And so most of the Templar lands everywhere really were granted to the order of the hospital, the Hospitallers, who then had a sort of real pain of ten years of legal cases trying to, you know, secure their rights to these things. So it was really a futile, wasteful, and kind of tragic attack, because it didn't gain anyone anything.
在这些土地上，确实搜集到了足够的证据。不管怎样，你已经到了1312年。所有这些领地的证据都被汇集起来，送往了位于里昂附近的维也纳的教会理事会，即1311年的教会理事会。到1312年，圣殿骑士团不被允许在这个理事会上自我辩护。法国国王在道路旁驻扎了一支军队，以确保理事会得出正确的结果，但结果仍然是，圣殿骑士团作为一个组织变得无用。没有人再愿意加入他们了。他们被解散并关停了。他们消失了。这对法国国王来说是个巨大的机遇吗？这是否具有长期价值，还是只是短期收入的提升？就像菲利普对犹太人的攻击一样，他没有从中获得足够的收益。虽然我们不确定，但我们必须假设圣殿骑士团在巴黎的金库中的钱最终流入了法国的金库，这将是一笔短期收入的收益，但真正的财富——圣殿骑士团的土地则被授予医院骑士团。它们并没有归属于法国国王。因此，这个计划一定是要占据这些土地，但结果却没有发生。所以几乎所有圣殿骑士团在各地的土地真正被授予了医院骑士团，然后他们经历了长达十年的法律案件，试图确保他们对这些土地的权利。因此，这实际上是一个徒劳、浪费和有点悲剧性的攻击，因为没有让任何人获得任何好处。
All right, Dan, let's get down to the nitty gritty. Why the mystique, why the myth, what is going on with the Templar thing? Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? We're not sitting here talking to Hospitallers or Teutronic Knights really. I mean, no one's making Hollywood movies or big budget TV series or what have you. It's always the Templers, right? A little bit of it must come from their origins, the Temple Mount, the Temple of Solomon, which is what they were named after. Now the Alaxa Mosque, or every time the Alaxa Mosque, which was identified by the Crusaders with the Temple of Solomon.
好的，丹，让我们来谈谈关键问题。为什么有神秘感，为什么有传说，关于圣殿骑士团到底发生了什么？是的，很有趣对吧？我们并不是在这里与圣约翰骑士团或梯门骑士团交谈。我的意思是，没有人会制作好莱坞电影或高预算电视剧，是吗？总是讨论的是圣殿骑士团。一部分原因可能来自于他们的起源，就是圣殿山和所罗门圣殿，这也是他们的命名由来。现在圣殿山是艾尔阿克萨清真寺，据十字军认为这就是所罗门圣殿。
There's great mystery, the central mysteries of the Christian faith all come from around the Temple Mount, the Harimasharee, right? So there's partly that. But I think it's much more than that. I think the nature of the Templers fall, the grotesque black propaganda that was leveled against them, and the enormous wealth, the unaccountability of the organisation, the combination of the military, spiritual, financial, all-world together, make this a ripe organisation on which to attach conspiracy theory, about grand global plans and so on.
这里有一个巨大的谜团，基督教信仰的核心谜团都来自耶路撒冷的圣殿山，哈利玛沙里山，对吗？所以部分原因是因为这个。但我认为其实要比这更复杂。我认为圣殿骑士团的衰落、针对他们的丑恶黑色宣传、以及该组织的巨额财富和不负责任，军事、精神和金融的结合，使其成为一个适合被附加各种阴谋论的成熟组织，涉及全球宏大计划等等。
But I think the nature of the fall, the fact that they were brought down so quickly, so devastatingly, so brutally in such a short period of time, and then appeared to disappear. It was as if they were just rolled up, people find that very, very hard to credit and think that no, that these can't have happened. Temples must have escaped, and they must have taken the ferocity with which the French crown pursued them, must mean that they had something more than just wealth. There must be some great secret they'd found in Jerusalem. This is all total speculation, but you can see why it's alluring.
但我认为陷落的本质，他们被如此迅速、毁灭性、残酷地击倒，在如此短的时间内消失。就好像他们只是被卷起来了，人们很难相信，认为这些不可能发生。庙宇一定逃脱了，并且他们必须具备超越财富的东西，这就是法国王室追捕他们的狠劲的原因。他们一定在耶路撒冷发现了某个伟大的秘密。这都是纯粹的推测，但你能明白为什么它如此诱人。
Now, my normal sort of retort to that point is, hey, do you remember a company called Lehman Brothers, and what about Best urns? They vanished like that in 2008. We know this can happen, but that doesn't really answer the substantive point, I know, which is that, hey, these guys, there must have been something going on.
现在，对于这一观点，我通常的回应是，嘿，你还记得一个叫雷曼兄弟的公司吗？还有百思园运输公司怎么样了？它们在2008年就突然消失了。我们知道这种事情可能会发生，但这并不能真正回答那个实质性的问题，我知道，那就是，嘿，这些家伙，肯定有什么内情。
Now, in Templar history, you also have big holes, partly because the Templar Central Archive, which was moved from Jerusalem to Acre to Cyprus, disappeared when the Ottomans took Cyprus in the 16th century, is gone. So there's lots of stuff we don't know about the Templars. Pile onto that, the fact that Templars were genuinely legends in their own lifetime. If you go back to 1200, 1210, Wolfram von Echembach, writing King Arthur's stories, plunk the Templars in as guardians of this thing called the Grail. Now, the idea of the Grail, the history of the Holy Grail, is something that has a sort of a life of its own, a mystique and a mystery of its own.
在圣殿骑士的历史中，也存在许多重要的缺失，部分原因是因为圣殿骑士中央档案馆在16世纪奥斯曼帝国攻占塞浦路斯时失踪了，因此我们对圣殿骑士了解很有限。此外，圣殿骑士在他们的有生之年就是真正的传奇。如果我们回到1200年、1210年，瓦尔夫拉姆·冯·埃舍巴赫编写亚瑟王的故事时，将圣殿骑士置于守护名为圣杯的物品的角色中。现在，关于圣杯的概念和历史本身就有着自己的生命力、神秘和迷雾。
What was it? Did it exist? Where did it come from? What did it stand for? Da-da-da-da-da. Plug that into the Templars, and you have this sort of incredible concoction of myth and magic, and sex and scandal, and holy mystery that has just proved irresistible, quite understandably, to screenwriters, to novelists, to the people who are making entertainment from the 1200s, you know, from the early 13th century. This is not a 20th, 21st century phenomenon. This is as much a part of the history of the Templars as the history of the Templars.
它是什么？它是否真实存在？它从哪里来？它代表了什么？哒哒哒哒哒。将此放入圣殿骑士团中，你就会得到一种神秘而令人难以抗拒的混合物，其中包含了神话与魔法、性与丑闻、神圣的谜团，这在制片人、小说家以及那些从13世纪初开始制作娱乐的人中都引起了广泛的兴趣。这不仅仅是20世纪和21世纪的现象，它同样也是圣殿骑士团历史的一部分。
So they've got the branding was kind of remarkable even at the time. Phenomenal. Very, you know, again, we like to think, as 21st century kids invented branding, right? I mean, the Templars, they had it down in the 1130s, 1140s. This, for the Knights of White Uniform, for the Sergeant of Black Uniform, all emblazoned with a red cross which stood for their willingness to shed blood in the name of Christ, for the blood that Christ had shed. The name, which was so evocative of Christianity's central mysteries. They were a very, it was a very potent, sexy idea.
所以，他们的品牌在当时是相当引人注目的。令人难以置信。非常，你知道的，总的来说，我们喜欢认为，作为21世纪的孩子们，我们发明了品牌，对吧？我的意思是，那些圣殿骑士，早在1130年和1140年就已经将其掌握得相当熟练了。对于白衣骑士和黑衣警官，他们所有的服装都饰以红十字，象征着他们愿意为基督的名字而流血，为基督所流的血。这个名字充满了基督教的中心奥秘的意味。这是一个非常有力、性感的想法。
And I think when you look at the Templars, over the years they made many enemies and only one of them really understood where the Templars were vulnerable. So you take the great Sultan Saladin, for example, he thought the way to get rid of the Templars was to kill them. After the Battle of Hateen, 1187, when Jerusalem fell back into Muslim hands, the aftermath of Hateen, it did anyway. But after the Hateen campaign, Saladin paid big fat feet, have every Templar who his men could capture brought to him, lined up 200 Templars and Hospitalers. 200 Templars and Hospitalers were lined up in front of Saladin and he allowed his religious entourage to volunteer to be head them one by one. These were guys who were not headsmen, not executions. There was a bloody scene. And he thought this was the way to get at the Templars, to kill their members. But he was wrong because within ten years the Templars had bounced back.
我认为当你看着圣殿骑士团的时候，多年来他们积累了很多敌人，只有少数一个真正了解到圣殿骑士团的弱点。例如，我们以伟大的苏丹撒拉丁为例，他认为摆脱圣殿骑士团的方式就是杀掉他们。在1187年的哈亭之战之后，当耶路撒冷重新回到穆斯林手中时，哈亭之战的后果本来就是这样。但在哈亭战役之后，苏丹撒拉丁付出了巨大的努力，让他的手下抓住所有的圣殿骑士，一共列队站了200个圣殿骑士和Hospitalers骑士。这些骑士被排在撒拉丁面前，他允许他的宗教随行人员自愿一个接一个地杀掉他们。他们不是专业的刽子手，也不是执行者，这一幕非常血腥。他认为这是对付圣殿骑士团的方式，杀死他们的成员。但他错了，因为在十年内，圣殿骑士团又重新崛起了。
The person who understood how to damage the Templars was Philip IV, because he understood it was a brand, it was a brand, it was values. He attacked the Templars' chastity, their probity, their religiosity, all the things that were at the core of why people donated to the Templars, why people joined the Templars. He came up with this list of accusations that said, yeah, you've taken vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, and you haven't been obedient to the church, you've been rolling around in this filthy money of yours, and you've been shagging each other. Like, that's. So you went hard at the Templars' central values, and that was where they were weak.
了解如何打击圣殿骑士团的人是菲利普四世，因为他了解到圣殿骑士团是一个品牌，一个有价值的品牌。他攻击了圣殿骑士团的贞洁、正直和宗教性， 这些原本是人们捐款和加入圣殿骑士团的核心理由。菲利普四世提出了一长串指控，声称你们发了誓要保持贫困、贞洁和顺从，但你们不顺从教会，反而沉湎于这些肮脏的金钱中，还彼此勾搭。你们违背了骑士团的核心价值观，这就是你们的弱点所在。
The myths around the Templars, the Hollywood rewriting, there's going to be people listening to this, watching this desperate to know, can you just rule out Holy Grail, secret treasure? If the Templars had any secret treasure, it remained secret. And I see no special reason to believe that they did have any. As for the Holy Grail, well, there's a connection between the Templars and the Holy Grail, but it's like the connection between James Bond's Spectre and MI6. It exists in fantasy, and it's a very long-running and one of the most successful entertainment business stories of the last 800 years, because that's its history. But do we mistake if an actual real fact was the Holy Grail an actual real thing? No, of course it wasn't. It was a trope. It was a literary idea. So we mustn't mistake that for truth. But I'm not here to kill fun, right? And I think you aren't either.
关于圣殿骑士团的神话，好莱坞的改编，会有人听到这些，看到这些，渴望知道，你能否排除圣杯、秘密宝藏的存在？如果圣殿骑士团确实有任何秘密宝藏，那就一直保持着秘密。我没有特别的理由相信他们确实拥有。至于圣杯，嗯，圣殿骑士团和圣杯之间有联系，但那就像詹姆斯·邦德与Spectre组织、MI6之间的联系一样。它存在于幻想之中，是一个有着800年历史的最成功的娱乐产业故事之一，因为那是它的历史。但如果我们将圣杯作为实实在在的事实吗？不，当然不是。它只是一个修辞手法，一个文学构思。因此，我们不应该将其误认为是真相。但我不是来扼杀乐趣的，对吗？我想你也是这样想的。
I think as historians, the temptation can often be to say, you come across the fun police, the joysuckers, right? You want to look at all these great films and TV shows and novels and say, that's what you've got wrong, this is all nonsense. Okay, my business and your business and all of our businesses' historians is presenting the facts as best we can have to discern them. But I don't think it's zero sum, and I think that the Templars would not be fun if you take away all the myths. But all you've got to remember is that here's the history and here's the myth. They can coexist. It sounds to me like quite a lot of other organisations that I history that begin as something and then kind of morph into something else.
我认为作为历史学家，常常会有一种诱惑，那就是你会遇到那些扫兴者、兴致破坏者，对吧？你想看看那些伟大的电影、电视剧和小说，然后说，“你们搞错了，这都是胡扯。”好吧，我们所有历史学家的任务就是尽力呈现事实，按照我们所辨别出的最佳方式。但我认为这并不是一对一的关系，而且我认为如果抛开所有的神话，圣殿骑士团就不再有趣了。但你需要记住的是，这里有历史，那里有神话。它们是可以共存的。听起来对我来说有点像其他许多组织的历史，开始作为某种东西，然后逐渐变成另一种东西。
Now, you could look at East India Company as a kind of transnational organisation that becomes an imperial power, unintentionally. And is it that by the end of the Templar period, they were. They lost some of their legitimacy because they weren't actually no longer fulfilling the job they'd been set up to do? Yeah, I think there was a certain degree of criticism of the Templars was justified after 1291 in that they'd been set up to defend the Crusader states and Crusader states left to defend. So you can understand why people began to question them.
现在，你可以将东印度公司看作是一种无意间成为帝国强权的跨国组织。到了圣殿骑士团时期的末期，他们已经失去了一些合法性，因为实际上他们不再履行他们设立的任务了。是的，我认为在1291年之后，对圣殿骑士团的某种程度的批评是合理的，因为他们本来是被设立来保卫十字军国家的，而现在十字军国家却处于自卫之中。所以你可以理解为什么人们开始对他们产生质疑。
You also have to think about the order of the poor knights of the Temple of Solomon. Their seal, the image on their seal was of two brothers on the same horse. Poverty was supposed to be ingrained in them. By the time you get to the early 13th century, they've been overtaken as the kind of cool poverty, by the mendicened orders. They weren't poor anymore. You had someone like Francis of Assisi wandering around, turning up to the fifth crusade, dressed in bare feet and in sackcloth effectively. This is what you call it, like this is a poor brother. Whereas by that point, the Templars, the Templars, the Templars, it was quite an extremely rich in the master. He had an enormous co-tory of servants, about ten horses of his own, a strong box to keep his valuables in, his own private cook, his own private scribe, Saracen Translate. All of this stuff, juxtapose, and there's this great moment which I've described in the book, where at the fifth crusade, the Templars are there with the Christian armies and along comes Francis of Assisi himself. And he says, I'm going to take care of this. And he goes over to see the Sultan and tries to convert him to Christianity. And the Sultan is absolutely flabbergasted to see him and sends him packing miraculously without beheading him. But there's juxtaposition. And the Templars, by the 13th century, were clearly no longer poor. And that had been set up to be dependent on charity and on handouts, but they had so much charity in handouts, they were no extremely wealthy.
你还必须考虑到圣殿骑士团的顺序，他们的印章上画着两个兄弟骑在同一匹马上的形象。贫穷被认为是根深蒂固地融入他们的身上。到了13世纪早期，他们在饥饿教团中不再被视为酷炫的贫穷。他们不再贫穷。你可以想象像弗朗西斯科·阿西西那样的人漫步四处，光着脚，身穿麻布衣，效果十分醒目，这就是你所说的贫穷的兄弟。而到了那个时候，圣殿骑士团——圣殿骑士团，圣殿骑士团——现在的掌门人非常富有。他拥有大量的仆人，自己有大约十匹马，一个保险箱用于保管贵重物品，还有自己的私人厨师和私人抄写员，通过黑奴翻译器得知，所有这些东西形成了鲜明的对比，书中有一个描写得非常好的时刻，就是在第五次十字军东征中，圣殿骑士团与基督教军队并肩作战时，弗朗西斯科·阿西西亲自来到战场，并表示他会处理好这一切。他前往见苏丹并试图将其转变为基督教，而苏丹看到他后非常惊讶，竟然让他安然离开而没有砍掉他的头。但这形成了对比。到13世纪，圣殿骑士团显然不再贫困。他们本来要依靠慈善和施舍，但他们得到了如此多的慈善和施舍，以至于他们非常富有。
They'd also become financially extremely sophisticated. So, people often say the Templars were the first bankers, but it's this idea that you could deposit money in one temple house and withdraw it another. I mean, that's not even a part of it. They were into financial services in a big way. It wasn't just banking, deposit-based banking. They were subcontracting all, or a huge swathe of treasury duties from the French crown for 100 years. Like half of the French treasury was running through the Paris temple. They were doing that job. They were employed by popes to collect crusading tax from all over Europe and deliver it to where the crusade was happening. Again, the fifth crusade. You've got Templars in England, France, Portugal, Hungary, all going out, physically collecting tax from people and funneling it to Egypt. I mean, logistically, it has an incredible operation. It's very, very hard to do. And you've got to be not only skilled in getting money out of people, but accountancy. You've got to be effectively like the brown-vansecurical guys of the Middle Ages, taking this money down into a war zone. So none of that was in the original purpose of the temple. They were supposed to be guarding pilgrims. This organization becomes something quite different by the end.
他们也变得在财务方面极为复杂。因此，人们经常说圣殿骑士团是第一家银行家，但这种想法是你可以在一个寺庙里存钱，然后在另一个寺庙里取钱。我的意思是，这还只是其中的一部分。他们在金融服务方面发展得非常厉害。这不仅仅涉及银行业务，而是以存款为基础的银行业务。他们为法国皇室承包了所有或大部分财政职责长达100年。法国国库中有一半的资金都通过巴黎圣殿骑士团管控。他们完成了这项工作。他们被教皇雇佣，从欧洲各地收取十字军税并将其交付到十字军作战的地方。再举一个例子是第五次十字军东征。你可以看到骑士团在英国、法国、葡萄牙和匈牙利都有存在，他们亲自收取人们的税款并将其转移至埃及。嘉，从物流上讲，这是一个难以置信的运作。这非常非常困难。你不仅要擅长从人们那里收钱，还要懂得会计。你必须像中世纪的银行家一样，将这笔钱带到战区。所以这一切都不是圣殿骑士团最初的宗旨。他们本应该保护朝圣者。但到最后，这个组织变得完全不同。
You've demonstrated there's still a great public appetite for medieval history out there at a time where lots of people saying kids shouldn't be learning at schools and all that stuff. Why do you think it still matters fundamentally? It matters to me because, you know, I've always loved these stories. It's a time of, it's a very, it's a formative time in which, in this country in England, in the United Kingdom, some of the real building blocks of today's political, social, legal, cultural kind of world, where they came from. But it's also a very strange world. It's got that lovely balance. It's a sweet spot for me which is between being recognizably similar. We're sitting here in the law courts and the legal profession dates back to the high Middle Ages in this country. And so the ends of court, there's a medieval institution, it's still with us today. And yet it's also incredibly weird. You know, this weird stuff goes down in the Middle Ages and it's a mindset that takes you some effort to get into. So I think, for me, that's the feel of the period. That's what I love.
你已经展示了在很多人说孩子们不应该在学校学习的时候，人们对中世纪历史仍然有很大的公众兴趣。你认为为什么它仍然基本重要？对我来说很重要，因为你知道，我一直热爱这些故事。在英国这个国家，中世纪是一个非常重要的时期，对今天的政治、社会、法律和文化等方面奠定了真正的基石。但那也是一个非常奇怪的世界。它有着很好的平衡点。我们现在坐在法院里，法律职业可以追溯到英国的中世纪。而许多中世纪的机构至今仍然存在。但同时，它也非常怪异。你知道，在中世纪会发生一些奇怪的事情，进入那种思维需要一些努力。所以，我认为，对我来说，这就是那个时期的感觉，也是我喜欢它的原因。
I think it is often read as old-fashioned to say that things, you know, we need to learn about things like Magna Cartel because they made us the men we are today. That's not quite it. I mean, these things are valuable to study in and of themselves and they happen to our ancestors and our people. They're part of who we are and where we've come from. And that's not a question of trumpeting them and being also Victorian and Wiggish and triumphalist about our history. It's just to say that every country has its history and people's of every country. I think if they want to be good citizens of that country or to know the history of where they are and where they're from.
我认为，通常会有一种老派的观念，认为我们需要学习像《大宪章》这样的事情，因为这些东西让我们成为今天的人。但事实并非如此。我的意思是，这些事情本身就是有价值的研究对象，它们发生在我们的祖先和我们的民族身上。它们是我们身份的一部分，也是我们来自何方的一部分。这不是为了夸耀它们，也不是为了崇尚维多利亚时代或者胜利主义，只是想说每个国家都有自己的历史，每个国家的人民都应该是该国的良好公民，了解他们所在地和自己的历史。
When you read the sources, you immerse yourself in medieval history, what strikes you? The similarity in our conditions, the sort of universal human response things, or do you think this is a different world? It's actually very hard to navigate it.
当你阅读这些资料时，你会沉浸在中世纪历史中，你有什么感受？是我们条件的相似性，人类对事物的普遍反应，还是你认为这是一个完全不同的世界？实际上，要理解这个世界是非常困难的。
Their ideas are different. They believe different things about what we would now call science, the natural world, the spiritual world. What's up emotionally on mind? It is both. That's a terrible historians answer to give, I realise, but it is both.
他们的观念不同。他们对现在所称之为科学、自然界和精神世界的事物持有不同的信念。在情感上有什么问题？两者皆有。我意识到这是一个糟糕的历史学家的回答，但确实如此。
It's that you cannot, at one moment, feel extraordinarily close to the characters whom you're writing about and feel their elemental human struggles and flaws and problems. But at the turn of the page, you just say, you know what, this stuff is batshit crazy and I've no idea what you guys are on.
这意味着，你无法在同一刻感受到与你正在写作的角色的极度亲近，感受到他们原始的人类挣扎、缺陷和问题。但是翻过一页后，你会突然说：“你们这些人在搞什么疯狂的事情，我完全搞不懂了。”
Particularly with the sufficient of Christian thought into absolutely every aspect of life and the weird cosmology of a world in which if something goes wrong, it's because of our sins. It must have been sinful. Yes, it's really, that's kind of the opposite of the way we think. Normally now we think if something goes against us, we've been incredibly unlucky. And if we do something that's successful, it's because we're incredibly great human beings.
特别是在基督教思想完全渗透到生活的方方面面，以及这个奇怪的宇宙观——一切不顺利都归因于我们的罪过。一定是因为有罪。是的，这与我们的思维方式相反。通常现在，如果某事对我们不利，我们会觉得自己非常倒霉；而如果我们做了一些成功的事情，那是因为我们非常伟大的人类。
And the medieval world doesn't seem to conform to that. It's all seen to a sort of lens of piety. If you lose a battle, you go into battle and you parading a fragment of the true cross above your head and thinking that this is going to help you out. And you lose the battle, then there's always these enormous periods of soul-searching with people saying, I mean, how on earth did we lose that one? It must be because of our sins.
中世纪世界似乎并不符合这一点。一切都被视为虔诚的透镜。如果你在战斗中失败了，你会在战斗中高举一枚真十字架的碎片，以为这会帮助你获胜。但最终还是输了，接着就会出现长时间的自我反省，人们会说，天哪，我们怎么会输呢？肯定是因为我们的罪孽。
Imagine if every time England got knocked out of a world cup on penalties, we all went around saying it's because we're bad people, it's because as a nation we've sinned too much. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe we should be thinking more in that way, I don't know. But I don't suppose you want to get into English football too much.
想象一下，如果每当英格兰在世界杯上被点球淘汰时，我们都会四处宣称这是因为我们是坏人，因为作为一个国家，我们犯了太多罪过。也许这就是答案。也许我们应该更多地以这种方式思考，我不知道。不过我猜你可能不太想深入了解英国足球太多。
And you've enjoyed big success in America as well. Why do you think the Americans are. I mean, we know that on paper, of course, America founded overwhelmingly with English, Irish and Scottish immigrants, therefore there's an interest in British medical history. Why does it touch a nerve over there?
在美国，你也取得了巨大的成功。你认为美国人为什么会这样呢？我的意思是，我们知道从纸面上来说，美国主要由英国、爱尔兰和苏格兰移民建立，因此他们对英国的医学历史兴趣浓厚。为什么这在他们内心引发了共鸣呢？
为什么你在美国也取得如此巨大的成功？我们知道，可以在纸上查到，美国是由大量英国、爱尔兰和苏格兰移民建立起来的，因此人们对英国的医学历史表现出浓厚的兴趣。你认为为什么这个话题会触动他们的心弦呢？
I think it's tremendously exotic in the United States. I think my American friends, my American readers, I think find the things that we take for granted, sitting here outside a church which dates back to the 13th, the 12th century, to be almost unimaginably brilliant and exotic. Because as you rightly say, the Western takeover of the continental United States is a relatively recent thing.
我认为在美国，这是非常陌生的。我想，我的美国朋友们，我的美国读者们，我认为他们会觉得我们坐在这里的事情是不可思议的、非常激动人心和陌生的。因为正如你所说，西方对大陆美国的接管是相对较近的事情。
The United States has an incredibly rich and learned history of its own. You only have to look at civil war to see how deeply engaged with and invested in their history, our American friends are. You don't have castles. You've got the Hearst Castle. That's about as good as it gets.
美国有着非常丰富而博学的历史。你只需要看看内战就能看到我们的美国朋友是多么深入地参与其中，投入其中。你们没有城堡。你们有赫斯特城堡。这就是最好的了。
I just think that we are enormously blessed in Europe and in this country with the fabric of a history that is much more ancient than we often think. And particularly in the United States, I think people there seem to appreciate what we have in a way that we cannot because we take it all for granted.
我只是认为我们在欧洲和这个国家，有一份比我们通常想象的历史要古老得多的宝贵财富。特别是在美国，我觉得那里的人们似乎更能欣赏我们所拥有的，而我们却往往认为这一切都理所当然。
And Dan, what I find fascinating about what you do, you're medievalist, is it's just bewildering. Because I mean, look at, we today, we can't agree as a society on whether Barack Obama was a good president. But sources wildly, even without fake news, serious journalists and commentators think as question whole aspects of his legacy. So how on earth are we supposed to judge and even write about those kind of characters that you're writing about? And we're basing it on one single source, unsubstantiated. We're basing it on things written hundreds of years after their death.
而且，丹，我发现你从事的中世纪研究非常迷人，因为这实在让人困惑。因为我是说，看看我们今天，我们所处的社会都无法就奥巴马是否是一位优秀的总统达成共识。即使没有假新闻，许多严肃的记者和评论家对他的遗产整体性能产生质疑。那么我们到底该如何评判、甚至撰写你在写作中涉及到的这些角色呢？我们仅有一份单一的资料作为依据，这种依据又是没有经过证实的。我们只能依赖那些在他们去世数百年后所写的事物来进行判断。
And I'm confident that you're creating a sort of accurate picture of any of the people you're writing about. I think the search for objective accuracy will drive you mad, or you'll become Bob Kerrow and still be writing about Lyndon Johnson, you know, 40 years after he began. I admire, but I think is a sort of beautiful form of insanity.
我相信你在写作时正在创造出对所描写的人物相当准确的图景。我认为对客观准确性的追求会让你发疯，或者你会变成像鲍勃·凯罗一样，仍然在40年后写关于林登·约翰逊的事情。我钦佩这种美丽但我认为也是一种疯狂的形式。
One is helped slightly by distance in that in terms of your judgment, we are further from events. And I would find it much easier to think about the kingship of Philip IV of France, for example, than I would about the presidency of Barack Obama, partly because we're still living Obama. You know, it's still, we're so far from any kind of place where we can really assess this with regard, something like Barack Obama's presidency with regard to its long term, medium term, perhaps even short term effects.
距离在某种程度上有助于我们的判断，因为我们与事件之间距离较远。例如，对于法国国王菲利普四世的统治，我会觉得思考起来更容易，相比之下，班拉克·奥巴马的总统任期则更难以衡量，部分原因是因为我们仍然身处奥巴马的时代。你知道，我们离真正能够评估奥巴马总统任期的长期、中期，甚至短期影响的地方还很遥远。
It's somewhat easier when you go back 800 years and you know, you just have the benefit of perspective. You also have a more manageable source base. And there is something to be said for the Middle Ages in that it's possible to master your sources in a way that I think it must be much harder for, you know, modern historians who have to read, who have so much more that there is to read. The flip side of that is that we have much bigger holes in the sources and you know, you can only ever be provisional based on the material you've got. So, you know, you're trading the two things off, but, you know, to go back to your question about the Middle Ages, one of the things I like is there's just enough material in the Middle Ages, right? There's just enough that you can get your head around it without becoming completely overwhelmed and have this sort of terrible feeling that you're never going to read all the primary stuff, let alone the secondary stuff. But there is sufficient that we can have interesting debates and think critically and disagree as historians about what it is we're looking at.
当你回到800年前并具备透视的好处时，事情就会变得稍微容易一些。此外，你所拥有的来源基础也更易于管理。而且中世纪有一个值得一提的地方，就是有可能以一种我认为对于现代历史学家来说要困难得多的方式掌握你的来源材料。另一方面，我们的来源材料中也存在很大的空缺，你只能基于你所拥有的材料暂时性地进行研究。因此，你在权衡两者之间，但是对于中世纪的问题，我喜欢的一点是中世纪的材料恰到好处。刚好有足够的材料供你理解而不至于被完全压倒，也不会有一种糟糕的感觉让你觉得你永远无法读完所有的一手材料，更不用说二手材料了。但我们确实有足够的材料来展开有趣的讨论，进行批判性思考，并作为历史学家在我们所研究的问题上持有不同意见。
Do you have to enjoy the idea that you can never know? I mean, I think if you're an 18th centuryist or beyond, you really get the sense that opinions can harden up. I think I do know quite a lot about the premiership of Warpole and I can make quite concrete judgments, but do you think medievalists when you're hanging out with each other smoking your pipes? Do you almost enjoy the blank spaces and do you enjoy filling that with imagination? Obviously considered and footnoted speculation. I think so. I mean, I enjoy it. As I go on, as I write more and think more and read more, I become more conscious of what that line is between how much you can fill with historical speculation, imagination and how much you are rigorously contained by your source material and what those lines are. And you could fill a room full of medievalists and you would find people drawing the lines in different places. But it's a really thriving discipline at the moment. I think people are. This is helped by moving to pop culture through Game of Thrones. Extraordinary discoveries like the Richard III thing, which is all you need to say now with the Richard III thing, by Hollywood's sort of awakening or reawakening to the Middle Ages. So I think it's a lively old discipline and there's lots to go round in it as well. And I think partly because of the sort of gaps in the evidence, it's becoming much more interdisciplinary. People are mapping together archaeological work and textual work and legal work and cultural history. And I think all of that is very fruitful and good for us in general.
你是否享受无法知晓的想法呢？我的意思是，如果你是一位18世纪或之后的历史学家，你真的会感觉到观点可以变得坚定。我觉得我对沃尔普尔的首相任期了解得相当多，可以做出相当具体的判断，但是你们这些中世纪研究者们在一起抽烟的时候呢？你们是否喜欢那些空白的地方，用想象填满它们？当然是经过深思熟虑和注脚的推测。我觉得是的。我喜欢这样做。随着我继续写作、思考和阅读，我越来越意识到历史推测和想象力能填充多少内容，以及你有多严格地受限于你的资源材料及其界限。如果你能让一间屋子里坐满中世纪研究者，你会发现人们将线条画在不同的位置上。但是，这确实是一个繁荣的学科。我认为人们正在努力。这得益于流行文化如《权力的游戏》的影响，以及关于理查德三世之事的惊人发现，现在只需要提一句理查德三世之事，再加上好莱坞对中世纪的觉醒或重新觉醒。所以我觉得这是一个充满活力的老学科，其中也有很多研究的余地。而且我认为，部分原因是由于证据的缺失，中世纪研究正变得更加跨学科。人们将考古工作、文本工作、法律工作和文化史联系在一起。我认为这一切对我们来说都是非常有益和有利的。
Young people, you go and talk to their schools all the time. Why do you tell them study history? I think history is the subject. Well, look, first of all, the subject matter of history is the combined endeavors and deeds of the entire human race dating back to the limit of record. So how could you not want to educate yourself in everything that's ever happened? Secondly, I think that more now than at any time in my life, the development of a bullshit detector is extremely important. And we are bombarded with information and it is part of our experience and in a sense our duty as citizens to filter, to examine, to ask why we're being told things. Because there's a form of information wars to use that terrible phrase out there and you're going to be able to navigate and history teaches you all of those skills. And thirdly, but actually it should be firstly, it's just really good fun. I mean, I have a blast. Right, this is storytelling with the beautiful bonus that it's all true.
年轻人，你们经常去学校与他们交谈。为什么告诉他们学习历史呢？我认为历史是一个很重要的学科。首先，历史的题材是整个人类追溯到有记录的极限时刻以来的共同努力和事迹。那么你怎么能不想学习曾经发生过的一切呢？其次，我认为现在比以往任何时候都更加重要的是培养一个辨别废话的能力。我们被信息轰炸，作为公民，我们有责任过滤、审视并问为什么我们被告知这些。因为现在存在一种信息战，你需要能够应对和辨别，而历史教给你所有这些技能。第三个，其实应该是第一个，那就是历史真的很有趣。我觉得很兴奋。这是通过讲故事来传达，而且最美妙的是，这一切都是真实的。
And it's in some way a define. Good for you. Thanks for watching this video on the History Hit YouTube channel. You can subscribe right here to make sure you don't miss any of our great films that are coming out. And if you are a true history fan, check out our special dedicated History channel, history hit.tv. You're going to love it.
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