ASML 2023 Q2 Earnings Call
发布时间 2023-07-20 15:57:33 来源
中英文字稿 
Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the ASML 2023 second quarter financial results conference call on July 19, 2023.
大家好，感谢大家的支持。欢迎参加2023年7月19日的ASML2023财务季度报告电话会议。
At this time all participants are in the listen only mode. After the speaker's introduction, there will be a question on the session. To ask a question during the session, you need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star 1 and 1 again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.
目前所有参与者都处于仅听模式。在演讲者介绍完毕后，会有一个环节提问。要在这个环节中提问，您需要按下电话上的星号1和1键。然后您会听到一个自动消息提示您已举手。如果您想撤回问题，请再次按下星号1和1键。请注意，今天的会议正在被记录下来。
I would now like to hand the conference call over to Mr. Skip Miller. Please go ahead.
我现在想把会议电话交给Skip Miller先生。请开始吧。
Thank you operator. Welcome everyone. This is Skip Miller, Vice President and Investor Relations at ASML. Joining me today on the call, our ASML CEO Peter Winick and our CFO, Roger Dawson. The subject of today's call is ASML's 2023 second quarter results. The link to this call will be 60 minutes and questions will be taken in the order that they are received. The call is also being broadcast live or the internet at asml.com. The transcript of management's opening remarks and a replay of the call will be available on our website shortly following the conclusion of this call.
感谢接线员。大家好。我是ASML的副总裁兼投资者关系负责人Skip Miller。今天与我一起参加电话会议的是ASML的CEO Peter Winick和我们的CFO Roger Dawson。今天电话会议的议题是ASML2023年第二季度业绩。本次电话会议的链接将持续60分钟，并按照接收顺序回答问题。电话会议还将在asml.com网站上通过互联网进行直播。在本次电话会议结束后不久，我们的网站将提供管理层的开场发言文字记录和电话会议的重播。
Before we begin, I like to caution listeners that comments made by management during this conference call will include four looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. These four looking statements involve material risks and uncertainties. For discussion of risk factors, I encourage you to review the safe harbor statement contained in today's press release and presentation found on our website at asml.com and in ASML's annual report on Form 20F and other documents as filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
在我们开始之前，我想警告听众，在这次电话会议中，管理层发表的评论将包含有关联邦证券法的前瞻性陈述。这些前瞻性陈述涉及重大风险和不确定性。关于风险因素的讨论，请您查阅今天的新闻稿和网站asml.com上的演示以及ASML公司的年度报告20F和提交给美国证券交易委员会的其他文件中所包含的免责声明。
With that, I would like to turn the call over to Peter Winick for a brief introduction.
有了这个，我想把电话交给彼得·温尼克进行简短介绍。
Thank you, Scab. Welcome, everyone. And thank you for joining us for our second quarter 2023 results conference call. Before we begin the Q&A session, Roger and I would like to provide an overview and some commentary on the second quarter 2023 as well as provide our view on the coming quarters and Roger will start with a review of our second quarter 2023 financial performance with added comments on our short and outlook. And I will complete the introduction with some additional comments on the current business environment and on our future business outlook.
谢谢你，斯卡伯。欢迎大家。感谢你们加入我们的2023年第二季度业绩电话会议。在我们开始问答环节之前，罗杰和我将提供第二季度2023年的概述和一些评论，并对未来几个季度提出我们的观点。罗杰将以对我们第二季度2023年财务业绩的回顾开始，并对我们的短期和展望提出补充意见。而我将用一些附加的评论介绍当前的商业环境以及我们未来的业务展望。
Roger. Thank you, Peter, and welcome, everyone. I will first review the second quarter financial accomplishments and then provide guidance on the third quarter of 2023.
大家好，非常感谢Peter和大家的到来。首先，我将回顾一下2023年第二季度的财务成就，然后提供对第三季度的指导。
Let me start with our second quarter accomplishments. Net sales come in at 6.9 billion euros, which is at the high end of our guidance. We shipped 13 EV systems and recognized 2 billion euros revenue from 12 systems this quarter. Net system sales of 5.6 billion euros, which was mainly driven by logic at 84% with the remaining 16% coming from memory. The net sales value of our fast shipments not yet recognized in revenue in the first half of 2023 amounts to 1.4 billion euros. Install base management sales for the quarter came in at 1.3 billion euros as guidance. Growth margin for the quarter came in at 51.3%, which is above our guidance, primarily driven by additional DPV immersion revenue in the quarter, partly related to starting revenue recognition upon shipment for immersion systems that are fast shipped. On operating expenses, R&D expenses came in at 1 billion euros and SG&A expenses came in at 281 million euros, both basically is guided. Net income in Q2 was 1.9 billion euros representing 28.1% of net sales and resulting in an EPS of 4.93 euros. Turning to the balance sheet, we ended the second quarter with cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments at a level of 6.3 billion euros. Moving to the order book, Q2 net system bookings came in at 4.5 billion euros, which is made up of 1.6 billion euros for EV bookings and 2.9 billion euros for non-EV bookings. These values also include inflation corrections. Net system bookings in the quarter were driven by logic with 69% of the bookings while memory accounted for the remaining 31%. At the end of Q2, we have around 38 billion euros in our backlog.
让我从我们第二季度的成绩开始说起。净销售额达到了69亿欧元，位于我们预期范围的高端。本季度，我们出货了13套EV系统，从12套系统中认定了20亿欧元的收入。净系统销售额为56亿欧元，主要由逻辑部分占比84%，剩下的16%来自存储部分。在2023年上半年中，我们尚未确认收入的快速发货产品价值达到了14亿欧元。本季度的安装基础管理销售额达到了13亿欧元，符合预期。本季度的增长率为51.3%，高于我们的预期，主要是由于本季度额外的DPV浸润收入，部分与快速发货的浸润系统开始确认收入有关。在运营费用方面，研发费用为10亿欧元，销售费用为2.81亿欧元，两者基本符合预期。第二季度净收入为19亿欧元，占净销售额的28.1%，每股收益为4.93欧元。转向资产负债表，我们第二季度结束时的现金、现金等价物和短期投资总额为63亿欧元。关于订单簿，第二季度净系统订单达到45亿欧元，其中16亿欧元为EV订单，29亿欧元为非EV订单。这些数值还包括通货膨胀修正。本季度的净系统订单以逻辑部分占比69%，而存储部分占比31%。截至第二季度末，我们的积压订单约为380亿欧元。
With that, I would like to turn to our expectations for the third quarter of 2023. We expect Q3 net sales to be between 6.5 billion euros and 7 billion euros. We expect our Q3 install-based management sales to be around 1.4 billion euros. The lowest margin for Q3 is expected to be around 50% a little below less quarter due to DPV mix. The expected R&D expenses for Q3 are around 1 billion euros and FGNA is expected to be around 285 million euros. Our estimated 2023 annualized effective tax rate is expected to be between 15% and 16%.
因此，我想谈谈我们对2023年第三季度的预期。我们预计第三季度的净销售额将在65亿欧元至70亿欧元之间。我们预计第三季度的用户使用管理销售额将约为14亿欧元。由于DPV组合，第三季度最低利润率预计将略低于上一季度的50%。预计第三季度的研发费用约为10亿欧元，FGNA预计约为2.85亿欧元。我们预计2023年的年度有效税率将在15%至16%之间。
An interim dividend of 1.45 euros per ordinary share will be made payable in August 10, 2023. In Q2, 2023, we purchased around 0.8 million shares for a total amount of around 500 million euros. As mentioned last quarter, in the current environment, we expect to see ongoing pressure on our free cash flow. As a result, we will be prudent in managing our cash loads and maintaining relatively higher levels of cash.
2023年8月10日将支付每股普通股1.45欧元的中期股息。2023年第二季度，我们购买了约80万股，总金额约为5亿欧元。正如上个季度所提到的，在当前环境下，我们预计自由现金流将继续承受压力。因此，我们将谨慎管理我们的现金负担，并保持相对较高的现金水平。
For that, I would like to turn it back over to Peter. Thank you, Raje.
为此，我想把话题交回给彼得。谢谢你，Raje。
As Raje has highlighted, another saltwater in a dynamic environment. Significant uncertainty remains in the market due to a number of global macro concerns around inflation, rising interest rates, recession, and the geopolitical environment, including export controls.
正如Raje所指出的那样，在一个充满活力的环境中又出现了另一种变数。市场中仍存在着重大不确定性，这是由于一系列全球宏观因素引发的，包括通胀、利率上升、经济衰退以及地缘政治环境，包括出口管制等。
Although certain net market seems to be reaching the bottom of the cycle, the semiconductor industry is running at very high inventory levels, leading customers to moderate waiver output as the supply chain works to reduce and rebalance inventory levels. In order to limit waiver output, customers continue to run at lower lift or tool utilization levels. Customers remain cautious due to the uncertainty around the timing, the shape, and the slope of the recovery.
尽管某些网络市场似乎已经触底回升，但半导体行业的库存水平仍然非常高，这导致客户不得不适度减少产量，以便供应链能够降低和平衡库存水平。为了限制产量，客户继续以较低的提升或工具利用率运行。由于复苏的时间、形式和速度存在不确定性，客户仍然保持谨慎。
We had an increase in booking this quarter, resulting in a backlog of around 38 billion euros exiting the second quarter.
在本季度，我们的预订量增加，导致第二季度结束时积压约380亿欧元。
In our EUV business, we have seen some shifts in demand timing. The majority of the shifts are due to fabulous readiness, with some elements of uncertainty around recovery. DPV demand still exceeds supply. While we have seen delays in DPV demand from some customers, it has been compensated by strong demand for tools that mature and mid-critical nodes, particularly in China. The demand fill rate for our Chinese customers over the last two years was significantly less than 50%, so they now take the opportunity to receive and install systems in their fabs as the supply of tools becomes available.
在我们的EUV业务中，我们看到了需求时机的变化。这些变化的主要原因是由于出色的准备工作，但也存在一些不确定因素。DPV的需求仍然超过供应。虽然我们看到了一些客户的DPV需求延迟，但在中国特别是在成熟和中关键节点的工具强劲需求的补偿下。过去两年我们中国客户的需求满足率远低于50%，所以现在他们抓住机会，在系统供应充足时安装设备。
Turning to our business, starting with DPV, we are now planning to ship more than 375 DPV systems with a mix of over 25% immersion. For immersion systems, using the fast shipment process, we have come to an agreement with customers on the reduced acceptance test procedure that allows revenue recognition on shipment. As a result, we now expect additional revenue of around 700 million euros in 2023, and this in turn reduces the amount of delayed revenue out of the year, and we now expect around 2.3 billion euros of delayed revenue from 2023 into 2024 versus around 3 billion euros of delayed revenue as previously communicated. This incremental DPV revenue increases the expected year-of-year growth of our known EUV business from around 30% as communicated last quarter to around 50%.
关于我们的业务，首先是DPV，我们计划发货375多个DPV系统，其中超过25%是浸入式系统。对于浸入式系统，通过快速发货流程，我们已经与客户达成协议，允许在发货时确认收入。因此，我们预计在2023年将获得额外的约7亿欧元的收入，这样一来减少了拖欠收入的金额。与之前沟通的3亿欧元相比，我们现在预计从2023年延迟至2024年的拖欠收入约为23亿欧元。这增加了我们已知的EUV业务的年度增长预期，从上个季度沟通的大约30%增长到约50%。
In EUV, due primarily to customer adjustments in timing and the demand timing related to delays in fabricliness as well as some remaining supply chain issues, we now expect to ship around 52 systems this year, translating to a year-over-year revenue growth for EUV of around 25%, versus a previously communicated expectation of around 40%.
在极紫外（EUV）领域，主要是由于客户对时间的调整以及与芯片制造延误相关的需求时间，还有一些仍存在的供应链问题，我们现在预计今年将出货大约52台系统，这将使EUV的收入同比增长约25%，而之前的预期是约40%。
We installed base business with the current utilization rates, market uncertainty, as well as time of recovery, customers are delaying productivity and performance upgrades on the LITO systems. Therefore, we now expect our install base business this year to be similar to last year versus a growth of around 5% as previously communicated.
根据目前的利用率、市场不确定性和复苏时间，我们已经建立了基本的业务。由于客户在LITO系统的生产力和性能升级方面的推迟，我们预计今年的安装基础业务与去年相似，而不是像之前传达的那样增长约5%。
In summary, based on our view today, with a higher DPV revenue offset somewhat by lower expectations on our EUV and install base business relative to last quarter, we now expect net sales growth for a year to move towards 30% versus a previously articulated expectation of over 25%. We still expect a slight improvement in gross margin compared to 2022. No change relative to what we said last quarter as the positive margin impact from increased DPV immersion revenue is expected to be offset by the diluted impact of lower upgrade revenue in 2023.
总结一下，根据我们今天的观点，尽管相对上一季度，我们对欧洲市场和安装基础业务的预期有所下调，但由于更高的DPV收入抵消了一部分，我们现在预计全年净销售增长将接近30%，而不是之前预计的超过25%。我们仍然预计毛利较2022年会稍有改善。与上一季度相比没有变化，因为增加的DPV光刻机收入的正面利润影响预计将被2023年较低的升级收入的稀释影响所抵消。
On the geopolitical front, as it relates to export control, the final Dutch regulations that were published at the end of last month are basically aligned to our expectations communicated last quarter and published on our website. Due to these export control regulations, ASML will need to apply for export license with the Dutch government for all shipments of its most advanced immersion DPV LITO system, which means the twin scan NXT 2000I and subsequent immersion systems.
在地缘政治方面，与出口管制有关，上个月底发布的荷兰最终法规基本上符合我们上个季度传达并在我们的网站上公布的期望。由于这些出口管制法规，ASML将需要向荷兰政府申请出口许可证，用于其最先进的浸没式DPV LITO系统的所有装运，这包括双扫描NXT 2000I和随后的浸没式系统。
As a reminder, sales of ASML's EUV tools have already been restricted and the business in China is predominantly focused on mature and mid-critical modes. The new Dutch export regulation will come into effect on September 1, 2023. There are also some reports in the media recently about additional US export controls. Of course, we will and cannot respond to speculation. However, based on our current understanding, we do not expect to change our previously communicated view. Therefore, based on everything we have been aware of as of today, we do not expect the Dutch and potential additional US measures to have a material impact on our financial output for 2023, nor on our longer-term scenarios as communicated during our InvestIDAY in November last year.
作为提醒，ASML的EUV工具销售已经受到限制，其在中国的业务主要集中在成熟和中度关键模式上。荷兰的新出口监管法规将于2023年9月1日生效。近期媒体也有关于美国额外出口管制的报道。当然，我们不能也不会对猜测作出回应。然而，基于我们目前的了解，我们不认为会改变之前的观点。因此，根据我们截至今天所知的情况，我们不认为荷兰和可能的美国额外措施会对我们2023年的财务产出或者去年11月在我们的投资日活动上所传达的长期情景产生重大影响。
Looking towards next year, our customers across different market segments are currently more cautious due to the continued macroeconomic uncertainties. As in our few last quarter, customers were expecting a recovery in the second-level of this year, but now seems that this is moving towards 2024. Almost all the shape and slope of the recovery remains unclear.
展望明年，由于持续存在的宏观经济不确定性，我们不同市场领域的客户目前更加谨慎。就像我们过去几个季度一样，客户们曾期望今年下半年会有复苏，但现在这种预期似乎要推迟到2024年。复苏的形状和速度几乎都不清楚。
However, based on the combination of the current firm demand and a strong backlog of around 38 billion euros, there are clearly still opportunities for growth in 2024. Given the mentioned uncertainties, it is too early to be specific about the forecast for next year. We will continue to follow the market developments and update you on our view of next year in the coming quarters.
然而，根据目前公司需求的结合与约380亿欧元的庞大积压订单，2024年仍然存在着明显的增长机会。鉴于上述的不确定性，现在对于明年的预测还为时过早。我们将继续关注市场的发展，并在接下来的季度中向您更新我们对明年的看法。
Like the near-term uncertainty, the long-term megatrends we talked about at our InvestIDAY are broadening the application space and fueling demands for advanced and mature nodes. Secular growth drivers in semiconductor markets such as electrification and AI, along with increasing lithography intensity on future technology nodes, are driving demands for our products and services.
就像我们在InvestIDAY活动中谈到的近期不确定性一样，我们所提到的长期巨大趋势正在拓宽应用领域，并推动对先进成熟节点的需求。半导体市场的长期增长驱动因素，如电动化和人工智能，以及未来技术节点的增加光刻强度，正在推动对我们产品和服务的需求。
In summary, while the current macro environment continues to create significant uncertainty, we are working to a strong backlog and expect growth this year towards 30%. In the near-to-medium term, customers remain cautious as they moderate waiver output to help lower inventory levels in the supply chain and to look to build confidence around the timing and the slope of the recovery. ASML and supply chain partners are still actively adding and improving capacity to meet future customer demand as we remain confident in our long-term growth opportunity.
总结起来，尽管当前的宏观环境仍然存在较大的不确定性，但我们正在努力处理强大的积压订单，并预计今年增长率将达到30%。在短中期内，我们的客户在减少库存和确定复苏的时间和力度方面仍持谨慎态度。ASML和供应链合作伙伴仍在积极增加和改善产能，以满足未来客户需求，我们对我们的长期增长机会保持信心。
With that, we would be happy to thank your questions. Thank you, Roger and Peter. The operator will instruct you momentarily on the protocol for the Q&A session. Beforehand, I would like to ask you kindly limit yourself to one question with one short follow-up if necessary. This will allow us to get it to as many colors as possible. Now, operator, could we have your final instructions and then the first question, please.
有了这个，我们要感谢你们的问题。谢谢你们，罗杰和彼得。接线员会马上告诉你们关于问答环节的规则。在此之前，我希望你们能友好地限制自己只问一个问题，如有必要再追问一个简短的问题。这样能让尽可能多的人提问。现在，接线员，请你给出最后的指示，然后开始第一个问题。
Thank you as a reminder to ask a question, you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star 1 and 1 again. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster. The first question comes from the line of Chris Sankar from TD Cowan. Please go ahead.
作为提醒，感谢您提出问题。您需要按下电话按键上的星号1和数字1，并等待您的姓名被宣布。如果您想撤回您的问题，请再次按下星号1和数字1。请在我们整理问答名单时耐心等待。第一个问题来自TD Cowan的Chris Sankar，请发言。
Hi, thanks for taking my question. I have two of them, Peter, I understand you don't want to give an outlook for next year. I'm not looking for revenue guidance, but if I look at from a unit standpoint or a system shipment standpoint, do you think DPUV and EUV units would grow in calendar 24 hours or calendar 23?
嗨，谢谢您回答我的问题。我有两个问题，Peter，我知道您不想对明年发表展望。我不是在寻求收入指导，但是如果从单位或系统出货量的角度来看，您是否认为DPUV和EUV单位在日历24小时或日历23小时内会增长？
Well, if I would know this, then I would probably give you some outlook on 2024. But I just refer back to what we call the firm demand for my customers, which and the strong backlog. And of course, as you understand, our full 2024 year is not fully covered by P.O., so still P.O.s need to come in.
嗯，如果我知道这个的话，我可能会向您展望一下2024年的情况。但是我只能参考我们对客户的稳定需求以及强大的积压订单。当然，您也明白，我们2024年的全部产值还没有完全由采购订单覆盖，所以还需要进一步的采购订单到来。
But we do have firm demand. Now that is a demand that for 2024, you cannot decouple from the outlook on 2025. And 2025 clearly shows the opening and the first ramp of some significant advanced fabs in the logic space, the two nanometer fabs, three nanometer for all three leading customers. That of course leads to the firm demand in what we currently see. And that means we see significant opportunities also, like we said, certainly for growth in 2024.
但是我们确实有坚实的需求。现在，对于2024年的需求来说，你不能脱离对2025年前景的展望。而2025年明确显示了在逻辑领域中一些重要先进 fabs 的开放和第一个阶段启动，包括两纳米 fabs，以及三纳米 fabs 为三个主要客户提供的。当然，这导致了我们目前所看到的坚实需求。这意味着我们也看到了一些重要的机遇，如我们所说，对于2024年的增长肯定存在。
However, we also need to realize that the uncertainties as it relates to economic developments and particularly I think the slope of the recovery. I think we will very likely, as many analysts believe, but also customers say, we will probably see, let's say, the thrust of this down cycle somewhere this year. And then we see a recovery coming. But it's all about the slope of the recovery. And that's driven really by the macroeconomic uncertainty.
然而，我们也需要认识到与经济发展相关的不确定性，特别是我认为复苏的速度。我认为像许多分析师和客户所说的那样，我们很可能在今年的某个时候观察到这一下行周期的顶点，然后开始复苏。但是复苏的速度取决于宏观经济的不确定性。
So the extent to which they're going to add more capacity in 2024 due to, let's say, the macroeconomic situation, that's the uncertainty. I think in 2024, there's a higher level of certainty of those fabs that will take those machines because they need to ramp in 2025. The next notes, that's pretty certain. But it's that uncertainty on the macroeconomic demand that makes us a bit more uncomfortable to give you some specific guidance on next year.
所以，由于宏观经济状况的不确定性，他们在2024年会增加多少产能还不确定。我认为在2024年，那些需要在2025年进行升级的晶圆厂确实有更高的确定性。下一个备注很确定。但正是宏观经济需求的不确定性使我们对明年的具体指导感到有些不安。
So in summary, the order book looks good, the firm demand looks good. But I'd love to see all that being translated into orders over the next couple of quarters. So this is why we also said, we're going to follow this very closely. And we're going to keep you abreast of what we're seeing and what our customers are telling us in the next one or two quarters to come.
总的来说，订单簿看起来很好，需求稳定。但是我希望在接下来的几个季度里，所有这些都能转化为实际订单。这也是为什么我们说要密切关注这一点的原因。我们将继续向您通报我们所看到的情况以及客户向我们传达的信息。
And I know I didn't give you a specific answer, but I hope it was specific enough. Thanks for taking my question.
我知道我没有给你一个具体的答案，但我希望它足够明确。谢谢你回答我的问题。
Peter, you don't have a clear picture on 24 outlooks, but how are you adjusting your own capacity? Can you give us an update how we should think about DUV and EUV capacity into 24 and have a final look?
彼得，你对24个前景没有一个清晰的了解，但是你如何调整自己的产能呢？你能给我们一个关于DUV和EUV产能在2024年的最新情况吗？并且我们要如何最终看待这个问题？
Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's also what we're of course internally discussing. But the capacity 2024 is really a function of what we need in 2025. And the good thing about 2025 is when we look at the number of fab openings and the Fender and the RAM profile of new fabs in 2025 across our customer base, which also includes memory. It leads us to believe that we should be very careful in reducing our capacity in 2024. Because if you do that, you won't be able to ship in 2025 given the fact that our lead times in the supply chain, you know, ranging from 12 to 15 to 18 a month.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。我认为我们当然也在内部讨论。但是2024年的产能实际上取决于我们在2025年所需的情况。而2025年的好处在于，当我们看到客户群体中新工厂的开设数量以及新工厂的Fender和RAM配置文件时（其中也包括存储器），我们得出的结论是，在2024年减少我们的产能时应该非常谨慎。因为如果这样做，考虑到我们供应链的交货时间，从12到15到18个月不等，你将无法在2025年进行出货。
So this means we will at this moment in time, we don't see any reason to reduce any capacity plans for 2024 because that's basically driven by our views on the 2025 timeframe. So I don't expect any adjustments there and we're not planning for it.
所以这意味着在当前时刻，我们并没有看到任何理由减少2024年的产能规划，因为这基本上是由我们对2025年时期的看法所驱动的。因此，我不认为会有任何调整，并且我们也没有计划去调整。
But perhaps the question has to do with the slope of the capacity of the RAM block on DUV going from 375 to 600. That requires significant ramp and I'm just wondering if the ramp would look more like a step function in the latter part of 2024 as you prepare for 2025.
可能问题与DUV上的RAM块容量斜率有关，从375增加到600。这需要大幅的变化，我只是想知道在2024年后半年准备2025年时，这种变化是否会更像一个阶跃函数。
Well, I mean, it's a difference between the ramp and the capacity. Yeah, I mean, the capacity is 600 units, but that's about 25% immersion. That's you could call expensive capacity and a 75% is dry, which is less expensive capacity. We're just going to do that because we are currently, this is a plan to ship more than 75 systems and I also feel that when we look at the firm demand, of course, for DUV, we don't have all those orders, but the firm demand, then we actually need more capacity next year.
嗯，我的意思是，这是斜坡和容量之间的区别。是的，我的意思是容量是600个单位，但那大约是25%的淹没。你可以称之为昂贵的容量，而剩下的75%则是未使用的，也就是较廉价的容量。我们要这样做是因为我们目前计划要发货超过75套系统，并且我也觉得当我们看到实际需求时，当然对于DUV，我们没有所有这些订单，但是根据实际需求，明年我们实际上需要更多的产能。
So it's going to be the capacity are step functions. It is not like a gradual function. So it means if we want to have 600 units by 2025, 2026, the somber by the end of 2024 in 2025, we need to have that step capacity built in the supply chain. Now, whether we're going to put all the orders in, that's dependent on the demand. But I think what we're putting in for 2025, 2026 is therefore the remainder of this decade. So we need to do this anyway, because we are strongly convinced, as I said in the prepared remarks, that the long term view that we have of this market is still very much in, you have very much intact.
因此，容量将成为阶梯函数。不像逐渐增长的函数。所以这意味着，如果我们想在2025年和2026年拥有600个单位，那么在2024年底到2025年，我们需要在供应链中建立这种阶梯容量。现在，我们是否会把所有订单都放进去，这取决于需求。但我认为，我们为2025年和2026年放入的是这个十年剩下的部分。所以无论如何，我们需要这样做，因为我们坚信，正如我在准备好的发言中所说，我们对这个市场的长期观点仍然非常强烈，完全没有改变。
So you have to distinguish between a ramp as a result, as you know, as a result of the market demand and the capacity ramp, because the capacity ramp is a step function and is in serves the purpose for the longer term.
所以你必须区分一下作为结果的斜坡和容量斜坡，因为你知道，市场需求的结果就是斜坡，而容量斜坡则是一个逐步增加的函数，为了长期目标而服务。
And my final has to do with technology migration, especially on the EUV, NXE3800E, supposed to be a platform upgrade, which carries higher ASP and is in mind understanding that that platform could be used for both three and two nanometer.
我的最后一项研究与技术迁移有关，特别是与EUV、NXE3800E有关的平台升级，该升级带来了更高的ASP，并且我们认为该平台可以用于三纳米和二纳米的技术。
Where are we with booking for those systems? And would that ASP of lift would provide you something as a cushion against a challenging macro environment?
我们在这些系统的预订方面进展到哪一步了？那个缆车的ASP会为您提供一些缓冲以应对具有挑战性的宏观环境吗？
Yeah, and in terms of bookings, of course, the bookings for the 3,800 are coming in, because if you look at next year, next year is going to show you a good blend of 3,600 and 3,800 tools. So obviously, you know, quite some of the bookings for EUV, many that are currently coming in, are also 4,800.
是的，就预订情况来说，当然，3800的预订正增加，因为如果你看明年，明年将展示出3600和3800工具的良好结合。所以很明显，目前正在增加的许多欧洲央行的预订也是4800。
The 3,800, we promised you that on this call, we would disclose the ASP and the ASPs as at least north of 200,000,000 euros. So that is a clear indication, I think, of how that indeed will also help in terms of revenue. It will also help in terms of gross margin ultimately, because even though it's a more expensive machine to make, because bear in mind there are commonality, there is, you know, quite some commonality in parts between a high and 8,000 and the 3,800 tool. It's a more expensive tool to make. It's also a very healthy uptick in terms of ASP, so it will help both on the revenue side and also on the gross margin side, you know, starting in 24, but definitely in 25, when, you know, the lion's share of the tools there will be 3,800. Thank you.
在这次通话中，我们向您承诺，我们将披露ASP和至少超过2亿欧元的ASP。所以我认为这清楚地表明这将有助于收入的增长。从利润率来看，它也将有助于毛利润率的提高，因为尽管制造这个更昂贵的设备会更加费时，但要记住在高达8000和3800工具之间存在着一定的共性。这个设备更加昂贵。而且，ASP的增长也将对收入和毛利率方面起到积极的推动作用，从2024年开始，并且在2025年，当3,800机器占据主导地位时，效果将更加明显。非常感谢。
Thank you. We'll now go to your next question. I'm your next question. It was on the line of Stefan, from OdeHest, please go ahead.
谢谢。现在我们将转向您的下一个问题。我是您的下一个提问者。这个问题来自OdeHest的Stefan，请说。
Yes, good afternoon. Thank you for taking the question. I would like to speak about the gross margin, because you have said basically that despite the changes in the growth rate of different products, you still see slight improvement this year, but you also confirmed 54 to 56 percent in 2025, so that's quite an improvement.
是的，下午好。感谢您回答问题。我想谈谈毛利率，因为您已经表示尽管不同产品的增长速度有所变化，但今年仍然有轻微改善，而且您也确认2025年的毛利率为54%至56%，这是相当大的改进。
What does it mean about the ramp of 2024, and can you maybe give us some color on the ingredient for the increase in the gross margin until 2025? Thank you.
2024年的斜坡是什么意思？您能否给我们一些关于毛利率增长原因的具体信息，直至2025年？谢谢。
Yeah, I think you heard our enthusiasm to share numbers on 2024. Or leg there also. I'm not going to do that.
是的，我想你听到了我们分享2024年数字的热情。或者在那方面也是如此。但我不打算这样做。
The growth drivers for 2025 in terms of the gross margin, there's a number that I think are significant there. We just talked about one important one, and that's the 3800. Of course, that's an important driver of gross margin improvement, definitely also in 2025. So that's one.
就2025年而言，从毛利角度来看的增长动力，我认为有一些是相当重要的。我们刚刚谈到的一个重要因素是3800。当然，这是毛利改善的一个重要推动因素，同样也适用于2025年。所以这是其中之一。
The second one that I think is important in comparison to today, as you know, we are preparing, you know, both for capacity expansion on DPZ and Loane, but also, you know, preparing significantly and putting a lot of money into, you know, getting everything ready for high knee, you know, both the manufacturing capacity here, we're building up teams in the field, et cetera, et cetera.
第二个我认为与今天相比很重要的事情是，你知道的，我们正在准备中，你知道的，既为DPZ和Loane扩大产能，同时，你知道的，我们也在大量投入资金，做好高膝这方面的一切准备，包括这里的制造能力以及在现场建设团队等等。
That currently is a significant drag on our gross margin as we have it today, because all of the costs that were that were that were occurring to, you know, to prepare for that capacity at the end, and for preparing for high knee everywhere in the entire organization, you know, go straight to the, straight to the gross margin today. That effect should be gone by 2025, because at that point in time, you know, you would hope that you're actually going to be in a position to utilize at least a significant part of that incremental capacity that you build, and also by that time you would see meaningful numbers of high knee.
目前，这对我们的毛利率构成了严重的拖累，因为我们目前所有为增加产能所发生的成本，以及为整个组织准备高膝（可能是某种产品或技术）所付出的努力，都直接影响了毛利率。到2025年，这种影响应该会消失，因为那个时候你希望能够利用至少部分增量产能，并且那时候你将看到高膝的数量有了实质性的增长。
So those are really important drivers of gross margin, and the only other one that I probably would give you is that is on the service side. As you know, we see a continued improvement of the EV service margin in particular, but also on DPV, and on both we are driving to get the service margin up, both as a result of, you know, what we're doing on the revenue side, but also in terms of trying to further control the cost.
所以这些都是毛利率的重要驱动因素，我可以给你的另一个是服务方面。正如你所知，我们看到了电动汽车服务毛利率的持续改善，同时也在汽车商品价值保护方面取得了进展，我们正在努力提高服务毛利率，这既是因为我们在收入方面所做的努力，也是为了进一步控制成本。
So those are the main drivers, why, you know, looking at 2025, we believe the scenario that we gave you there, the 54 to 56%, is a tenable and reasonable aspiration for us to have.
所以这些是主要的推动因素，为什么我们相信在2025年，我们给出的54%至56%的情景是我们所能够实现和合理追求的。
Okay, thank you. And the quick for this, I may, is about the other book, the memory now represents 31% of the bookings versus 21% of the squatter. Is that the sign of a rebounding memory, or is it something special here?
好的，谢谢。关于这个问题的快速回答，我可以说是关于另一本书，现在的销售量中有31%来自回忆类书籍，而仅有21%来自其他类别书籍。这是否意味着回忆类书籍正在回升，或者这是由于某种特殊原因呢？
No, I think that's where we are, that is moment. I mean, part of it is the minority, by the way, is of course, orders from Chinese memory customers, but the majority of the majority of the technology transitions are the leading memory makers. They're just preparing for the next node transition, which is a technology transition, which need, of course, you know, the type of machines and the type of technology that Roger just talked about, like, for instance, the E.U.E. systems, the 3800s.
不，我认为那就是我们所处的地方，那就是此时此刻。我的意思是，其中一部分来自少数，当然也有来自中国客户的订单，但大多数技术转型都是由主要的记忆芯片制造商引导的。他们只是为下一代工艺转型做准备，这是一种技术转型，当然需要像罗杰刚刚提到的那种机器和技术，比如E.U.E.系统和3800型号的设备。
And so, you know, this is what it is. It is not, you shouldn't see this as an immediate, you know, addition to the memory output capacity. Just accept that, you know, Chinese ones, but that's like we all know, that's mid-critical to mature stuff. That's not leading edge. Okay. Thank you very quickly. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll now take your next question.
所以，你知道的，这就是现状。不要将其视为立即增加存储容量的事实。只需接受这一点，你知道，中文人，但我们都知道，那是中等程度并比较成熟的东西。那不是领先的技术。好的，非常感谢。非常快地，谢谢你。非常感谢。现在我们接下来回答你的问题。
And your next question comes from the line of, funded, there's funding from JP Morgan. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Can you hear me? Very good. Thank you. Yeah, I agree. Peter, one question for you. You know, I mean, you talked about the challenging macro environment at the moment. How do you see, I mean, you can see how utilization is doing at your customer base. On average, where do you see utilization is at the moment? Because that will be clearly the driver of when, you know, the customers start to get more positive in terms of orders back to you in the next few quarters. And secondly, in terms of China, China clearly is a very strong driver of your sales this year. I mean, when we look at utilization, when we hear the data points and the supply chain, at least in the logic companies in China, utilization is as bad. It's not worse than what we are hearing in other parts in the industry. So maybe to try to understand how sustainable these orders from China are into next year, given that the end markets, even in China, seem to be incredibly weak at this point.
你的下一个问题来自一位提问者，由摩根大通提供资金支持。请提问。嗯，你能听到我说话吗？非常好，谢谢。是的，我同意。彼得，我有一个问题想问你。你知道，我是说，你提到目前宏观环境面临的挑战。你如何看待你的客户群体的利用率情况？就平均而言，你认为目前的利用率如何？因为这显然将是客户在未来几个季度开始向你提出更多订单的动力所在。另外，在中国方面，中国明显是今年你们销售的强大动力。当我们看到利用率、听到数据点以及在中国的逻辑公司的供应链时，利用率与我们在该行业其他地区所听到的情况一样糟糕，甚至更糟糕。因此，或许我们可以试着理解明年中国市场的订单是否可持续，考虑到即使在中国，最终市场似乎也异常疲弱。
Yeah, good. Basically, the utilization question, good question that you distinguish between memory and logic, I think in memory, I don't think we see a lot of bottoming out there. Yeah, I could argue it's bottoming out, but we don't see it kind of an inflection point. In logic, though, it's very early, but we could see some of an inflection point today. But that's just over the last short period. So see how sustainable that is. But I would think if you think about that, that's bottoming out. And you could even say we've passed an inflection point, although it's still early. Now on China, how sustainable is it? That's correct. I mean, you see the same utilization trends in China as we see in the rest of the world. But you have to realize that the demand in China has two elements. One, of course, it needs to fulfill the current demand. And that's why we just talked about them in the current demand. This is, of course, weak. The most important point is it's a strategic investment. And those thefts are being built for a purpose. When you look at what's been made in China, it's made critical to mature semiconductors. And that's the sweet spot when it comes when you look at the big mega trends, the big mega trends around the globe where China is leading, as a matter of fact. When you think about electrification of mobility, think about the energy transition. The IoT in the industrial space, the rollout of the telecommunication infrastructure, battery technology, that's all. That's the sweet spot of midcritical and mature semiconductors. And that's where China, without any exception, is leading. Now that means that the Chinese industry, the customers of the semiconductor industry, need semiconductors of that kind. And I can just tell you in the discussion that we've had, the concern of many of our Chinese customers is that given the increase of the geopolitical tensions, they do not want to rely on supply that comes out of China. So it's very simple that they're going to build a significant amount of capacity in that space, in the midcritical to mature semiconductors, especially fuel those megatrends that where China is actually leading. So if you didn't look at the big home market and that desire, because of the fear that they have on the increase in geopolitical tensions, they're going to build all those fabs themselves. And that's what's happening. Those fabs will be built. There are many new fabs and new companies that actually say we're going to provide those type of semiconductors to support these megatrends where China is indeed leading. And that's what's happening today. It's not so much the current macroeconomic or the market situation that drives the demand. It's the strategic investment that drives the demand because it's the dependence that that part of the Chinese industry has on imports. And that's, I think, is very sustainable. This is very sustainable for the next couple of years. Thank you very much. Thank you. We will now go to your next question.
是的，很好。基本上，利用率问题，非常好的问题，你区分了内存和逻辑，我认为在内存方面，我们并没有看到很多的极限。是的，我可以说它已经到了极限，但我们并没有看到拐点。然而，在逻辑方面，现在还处于很早期阶段，但今天我们可能会看到一些拐点。不过，这只是短期内的情况，我们要看看它的持续性。但我认为，如果你考虑一下，这已经到了极限。你甚至可以说我们已经过了一个拐点，尽管现在还很早。现在来谈谈中国，可持续性如何？没错。我指的是，我们在中国看到与全球其他地区相同的利用率趋势。但你必须意识到，在中国的需求有两个方面。首先，当然，它需要满足当前的需求。这当然是疲软的。最重要的一点是这是战略性投资。这些设施都是为了实现一定目标而建设的。当你看看在中国制造的产品时，你会发现它们对成熟的半导体至关重要。这是关注全球大趋势的关键点，而中国实际上处于领先地位。当你考虑到电动汽车、能源转型、工业物联网、电信基础设施的推出以及电池技术时，这都是中等关键和成熟半导体的发展热点。而这正是中国所领先的领域。这意味着中国半导体行业的客户需要这类半导体产品。通过我们的讨论可以得知，我们许多中国客户的担忧在于，由于地缘政治紧张局势的加剧，他们不想依赖中国的供应。因此，他们要在中等关键到成熟半导体领域建设大规模的产能，并专门满足中国在这些领域实际上领导的大趋势的需求。所以，如果不考虑中国这个大本土市场和这种需求，因为他们对地缘政治紧张局势的增加感到担忧，他们会自己建造所有这些设施。而这就是正在发生的事情。将会建造许多新的设施和新的公司，它们说我们将提供这些类型的半导体来支持中国领先的这些大趋势。这就是今天正在发生的事情。需求的推动不是由当前的宏观经济或市场情况驱动，而是由战略投资驱动，因为中国行业在这部分对进口有依赖。我认为这是非常可持续的，将在未来几年内持续存在。非常感谢。谢谢。现在我们接下来的问题。
And your next question comes from the line of Sarah Russell from Bernstein. Please go ahead.
您的下一个问题来自Bernstein的Sarah Russell，请发言。
Hi. Can you hear me?
嗨，你能听到我说话吗？
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Hello. Thanks for taking my question. I was just wanting to give us an update on high NA. So indications are that customers are not delaying the tech transition. So are you still on track for first shipments to customers in 2024? And have you seen any increase in orders as you get closer to those first shipments?
是的。是的。太好了。你好。谢谢你回答我的问题。我只是想给我们关于高数值孔径的最新情况一个更新。目前的情况表明客户并没有延迟技术过渡。那么，你们是否仍然按计划在2024年向客户交付首批货物？而且随着交货日期的临近，你们有看到订单的增加吗？
Yeah. I think we're still on track for the first shipment in 2024, yes. We're actually this year, we're starting to shift the first module. So that's on track, and that also means for 2024. Yeah, I don't think that delaying the introduction at all. You're absolutely right. And yes, we are still seeing orders coming in. So both is confirmative. With the point made that, and I think Rachey alluded to that, that if there's anything on high NA, we need to make sure that the supply chain, which of course needs to supply is with critical new technology, will actually be on time. So our main focus is on the execution in the supply chain, not so much from the demand side. It's really about execution.
是的，我认为我们仍然按计划在2024年首次发货，是的。实际上，今年我们开始转移第一个模块。所以这是在计划之内，也意味着对2024年没有延迟。是的，我认为不会延迟引入。您完全正确。是的，我们仍然看到订单不断增加。所以两者都是肯定的。正如Rachey所暗示的，如果需要高NA产品，我们需要确保供应链能够按时提供关键的新技术。所以我们的主要关注点是供应链的执行，不太关注需求方面。真正的问题在于执行。
Great. Thanks. And can we get maybe, could you give us a little bit of color on where you stand on high NA orders in the backlog? So assuming that you now are sort of seeing a good number come in, can you get a sense of orders in the backlog and timing of those orders?
好的。谢谢。我们可以了解一下您对高NA订单在积压订单中的情况吗？假设您现在看到了很多订单的到来，您能否了解积压订单的数量和时间安排？
Yeah, we said before that our customers, given there is only a very limited number of customers for high NA. Our customers really do not want us to disclose the disclose that PO bookings on high NA. I mean, that's the situation. That's why we're not sharing those data. But for quite a while now, we're looking at double-digit numbers in the backlog. Let me put it that way. And that's quite a while back that we started to cross that level. So it's increasing. And it's increasing. Yeah.
是的，我们之前说过，鉴于高NA（非通解）产品的客户数量非常有限，我们的客户确实不希望我们透露高NA产品的PO订单情况。我想这就是事实情况。这就是为什么我们没有共享这些数据的原因。但是在过去相当长的一段时间里，我们的积压订单数量一直在以两位数的速度增长。就这样说吧。我们从一段时间以前就开始超过了这个水平。所以积压订单数量在增加。而且还在继续增加。是的。
Excellent. Thank you very much. Thank you. We will now go to our next question. From the line of Francois, Povignet from UBS, please go ahead.
非常好。非常感谢。谢谢。现在我们进入下一个问题。来自瑞银的Francois Povignet，请发言。
Hi. Thank you very much. Can you hear me?
你好。非常感谢你。你能听到我说话吗？
Okay. Yeah, I'm clear. Perfect. So the first question is obviously Peter, you were clear on 2024 uncertainty, at least in terms of units. And you will come back later with a clear picture. And then just, and Roger, you started to talk about the ISP for the EUV, next year with the E model coming to market with 38 and Raj with, if I understand correctly, an ISP of close to 20% close, best to see older models. Can you help us give us more color on the ISP? So something you can have maybe more visibility on to next year for EUV. So you touch upon, but also DPUV, you know, with all the moving parts with China, with your new models as well of DPUV on the market, the 2100 with a 20% improvement in overlay, you have inflation on top. So just how should we think about the ISP specifically, you need to decide if you like about your both businesses, basically?
好的，是的，我明白了。太棒了。那么第一个问题显然是关于彼得，你对2024年的不确定性很清楚，至少在单位方面是这样。你将在以后提供一个清晰的画面。然后还有，罗杰，你开始谈论明年EU V上的ISP，E型号将以38的ISP进入市场，如果我理解正确的话，相当于旧型号ISP的20%左右。你可以帮助我们对明年的EU V中的ISP有更多的了解吗？所以你提到了，还有DPUV，伴随着中国以及你们的新DPUV型号在市场上的各种动态，2100型号有20%的过浓涂层改进，你们还面临通胀问题。那么关于ISP，你们两个业务应该如何考虑呢？
Yeah, Francois, I think I was quite clear, I think, on the on the ASP for the 3800. So I said north of 200 million. So I think that was clear. When it comes to ASPs in the DPV landscape, of course, it's very widely distributed. And there, obviously, the mix effect is quite significant. And that is true both within the portfolio of KRF of dry tools and also in wet tools. So you're absolutely right. I mean, the new models that we're introducing, of course, give significant value to the customer and therefore, commanding a significantly higher price than all the models. So that is clearly the case, but it is completely dependent on the mix within the dry business and the immersion business. And also in the immersion business, you have to also realize that what I said in the prepared remarks that we cannot ship our most advanced immersion tools to China, but we can ship our mid-critical immersion tools to China. And that, of course, gives even in the immersion scope gives a quite a significant spread. So it is very difficult to give you one number for the DPV analysis based basically to heterogeneous.
是的，弗朗索瓦，我想我对3800的平均售价（ASP）非常清楚地表达了，我说过超过2亿美元。所以我认为这很明确。当谈到DPV市场的平均售价时，当然有很大的分布范围。在这方面，混合效应非常显著。这在KRF的干法和湿法工具组合中都成立。所以你说得很对。我的意思是，我们推出的新型号当然给客户带来了巨大的价值，因此售价显著高于所有其他型号。这当然是事实，但它完全取决于干法业务和浸润业务中的组合。而且在浸润业务中，你还必须意识到，正如我在准备的发言中所说，我们不能将最先进的浸润工具运到中国，但我们可以将中度关键的浸润工具运到中国。这在浸润范围内增加了相当大的差异。所以很难给出一个基于DPV分析的具体数字，因为它基本上是非均匀的。
Okay. Thank you very much for that. And may you, Anurji, and the second question is on the install-based management. I mean, if you look at the guidance of flat, again, I understand that the level of upgrade is not as you may be expecting the current environment. If you look at the guidance of flat, you would imply decline in H2 year over year at least. So how should we think about the level of Peter? You mentioned a small sign of recovery. It's early days, but it's been a small sign. And the fact that the install-based management would be very close to the demand in terms of recovery or each generation, speaking up, just trying to reconcile that and how should we think about install-based management into next year with your EUV as well going up and ISP per tool per year? I mean, business model.
好的，非常感谢。那么，Anurji，第二个问题是关于基于安装的管理。我是说，如果你看看平坦的指导，我理解升级的水平可能不如你对当前环境的预期。如果你看看平坦的指导，你会意味着下半年同比至少下降。所以我们应该如何看待Peter的水平？你提到了一些复苏的迹象，虽然还为时尚早，但确实是一个小小的迹象。而且基于安装的管理将非常接近需求，无论是在恢复还是每一代技术方面，希望能和解这一点，并且我们应该如何思考下一年的基于安装的管理，考虑到你们的EUV以及每年的工具数量增加呢？我的意思是你们的商业模式。
Let me first take the question on 23. And maybe Peter, you want to expand it further.
让我先回答23号的问题。也许Peter，你想进一步扩展一下。
But as it comes to 23, I think the right frame of reference, of course, is not half year over half year, but the second half in comparison to the first half. And the first half we had 2.7 billion and flat would mean that we're going to have 3 billion in the second half. So that would point at a recovery.
但是当到了23年，我认为正确的参考框架当然不是半年对半年，而是下半年与上半年进行比较。上半年我们有27亿，若平稳发展则下半年将达到30亿。这意味着我们正在复苏。
And given the guidance that we've given for Q3, Q3, we indicated 1.4. So it doesn't take a lot of compute power to calculate it. That would mean 1.6 for Q4. So that tells you that indeed we are looking at a recovery there. That would be commensurate with the perspective of the recovery that Peter has been talking about. But that's what we're looking at for this year and the slope of recovery there. Yeah, and I think the slope of recovery is critical and very important because, like I said, although it's very early, but you could argue and you look at the utilization graphs, you could think that there is an inflation point for logic. We've had that. But, no, it's still pretty early on. But if that would continue, then it's really important to look at the slope because for upgrade business, basically you could argue you have a relatively short period of time before you hit, again, high utilization. And then customers say, well, I don't have the time. I don't want to shut down the tool.
根据我们对第三季度和第四季度的指导意见，我们预计第三季度增长为1.4。所以并不需要太多的计算功率来计算这个。这意味着第四季度增长为1.6。这告诉我们确实在那里存在经济复苏。这与彼得一直在谈论的复苏前景相一致。但这是我们对今年复苏速度的预期。是的，我认为复苏的速度是关键和非常重要的，因为虽然现在还为时过早，但你可以从利用率图表中看出逻辑的需求已经有了一个转折点。我们已经有了这个迹象。但是，现在还时机尚早。但如果这种趋势持续下去，那么看看复苏速度就变得非常重要了，因为对于升级业务来说，在再次达到高利用率之前，你可能只有相对较短的时间。然后客户会说，我没有时间，我不想关掉工具。
So I think we will watch this very carefully together with our customers to say, okay, looking at the slope of the slope accelerates, then we really need to start negotiating with the customer quickly to put in more upgrades. And that could be an upside when the recovery accelerates. When it's a slower degree, slow, they'll probably take a bit more time. But that's also where it's the same reasoning. We now have time to upgrade because we don't have a full utilization of the installed base. So there is some upgrade there, but still customers are currently saying, you know, market is not good, it's still CapEx because there are high value upgrades. So they're a bit cautious now. But yeah, we have to start being very, very close to our customers. The next couple quarters to say, you know, if we see an opportunity, let's go. Because before you know it, they don't have time. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Who will now go to your next question?
因此，我认为我们将与我们的客户一起密切关注这一情况，看一下销售增速的趋势加快了，那么我们就真的需要迅速与客户进行谈判，以增加更多的升级。当复苏加速时，这可能会带来上升空间。当增速较慢时，他们可能需要更多时间。但这也是相同的推理。我们现在有时间进行升级，因为我们没有充分利用已安装的基础设施。因此，有一些升级的机会，但目前客户表示，市场不好，仍然需要资本支出，因为有高价值的升级项目。所以他们现在有点谨慎。但是，是的，我们必须与我们的客户保持非常非常紧密的联系，在接下来的几个季度中，如果我们看到机会，就要抓住。因为在你知道之前，他们就没有时间了。非常感谢。谢谢。我们现在进行下一个问题。
Angela, next question comes from the line of Alexander Peturek from Sushitai, general. Please go ahead. Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my question.
Angela，接下来的问题来自Sushitai的Alexander Peturek，总经理。请继续。 是的，你好。谢谢你回答我的问题。
I just have to. First one would be in the talk about the recovery being pushed up somewhat. And you do give a cautious message on 2024. So my question is really, is there a possibility that the significant start of openings you spoke about in 2025 could be pushed out by six months or a year? Is that something that's possible?
我只是必须这么说。首先，就谈到恢复有所推进而言，您确实给出了对2024年的谨慎信息。所以我的问题是，您说过的2025年的重要开放的开始是否可能被推迟半年或一年？这是可能发生的吗？
I mean, if the customers have either capacity for longer, one day push out capacity additions as a result for all of those strategic plan openings. Really strategic, I will go ahead regardless of the bank pattern. That's what I have. Thank you.
我的意思是，如果顾客有更长时间的容忍度，一天推出新的产品扩展计划，作为所有战略计划推出的结果。非常有战略性，我会继续前行，不论银行模式如何。这就是我的观点。谢谢。
Yeah, I think, you know, on this, on the leading edge logic, they will happen. I mean, they have, it's basically it's not, and it's driven by the roadmaps of the customers of our customers. It's the apples, the core comes, the NVIDIA's of this world that actually have a very clear, you know, road map based on the 20 or the three in animated designs and they want those new products to be introduced at that time. So that's going to happen. We have little doubt there. And I think on the strategic Pepsi in China made that very clear. I think, you know, it's just a strategic, very clear focus area that they have because, you know, they want to hatch against any negative geopolitical repercussions that could come. So that's also strategic. So I see a little downside in 2025. Excellent. Thank you very much. And then just kind of a technical follow up on the 700 million cash in DQV that are moving out of fast shipment. Did all of that occur in the second quarter that you've reported or is it speed was written that they reported in the current quarter? Are they saying what proportions please? And while we're talking of fast shipments, our discussions are the similar change to the table for EUV or is that on the table now? Thank you.
是的，我认为，在这方面，领先的逻辑，它们将会发生。我的意思是，它们实际上是由我们客户的客户的路线图推动的。这是苹果、核芯电脑和英伟达这样的实体，他们根据20年或3年的动画设计制定了非常明确的路线图，并希望在那个时间推出这些新产品。所以这将会发生。我们对此没有多少疑问。而且，我认为百事在中国也表达了非常明确的战略。我认为，这只是一个非常明确的战略重点领域，因为他们想要预防可能出现的任何负面地缘政治影响。所以这也是战略层面。因此，我认为2025年的前景并不乐观。非常好。非常感谢。然后只是对第二季度报告中在DQV快速发货中转出的7亿美元现金的技术性跟进。这全部出现在你们报告的第二季度中吗？还是在当前季度中有所改变？可以提供比例吗？另外，我们正在讨论用于EUV的类似变革是否正在酝酿？谢谢。
So the 700 million is the expectation that we have for the end of the year, right? So of course there will be a little bit of flux during the year, but the 700 million is the expectation that we have for that in the year. Of course we have some of that also in this quarter, but the 700 million really is the expectation that we see for the full year.
所以，7亿是我们对年底的预期，对吗？当然，在一年中会有一些波动，但7亿是我们对当年预期的数额。当然，我们在本季度中也有一部分，但是7亿真的是我们对整个年度的预期。
As it comes to EUV, you know, it's based on the conversations that we've had with the customers. They're very happy to take, you know, the risk of the tool for the immersion tools upon shipment and based upon a shorter testing program for EUV will not vary yet. So, you know, the question will be also, you know, based on how next year is going to pan out. I think that we're going to get the question of how much fast shipment are we going to see for EUV next year in comparison to normal shipments. I think that's the primary question that we have on EUV.
说到EUV，你知道的，这基于我们与客户的交流。他们非常愿意承担对浸没式工具的风险，以及基于短期测试计划的EUV工具尚未变化。所以，问题也会基于明年情况的发展。我认为我们将面临的主要问题是，与常规出货相比，我们明年会看到多快的EUV出货速度。这是我们对EUV的主要问题。
So if you think about, you know, to what extent could we have some tailwind from that in that regard, I think it will be heavily dependent on, you know, what we're going to do in terms of bracket versus the fast shipment. There are two considerations there for next year. One consideration is that, you know, as a standard procedure, when we introduce new technology, we want to test them more, right? So the 3,800 clearly is a significant development in our EUV, you know, in our EUV shop and that means that, you know, at least for a number of tools, we want to do, you know, more testing and more elaborate testing and therefore, at least for a number of the initial tools, we wouldn't fashive them. So we regular shipments and do this full testing program.
所以如果你思考一下，你知道，在这方面我们能从那方面得到多大的支持，我认为这将严重依赖于我们在括号内与快速发货方面将要做些什么。明年有两个考虑因素。其中一个考虑因素是，作为标准流程，当我们引入新技术时，我们希望对它们进行更多的测试，对吧？所以3800显然是我们EU V存储器中的重大进展，这意味着，至少在一些工具上，我们希望进行更多的测试和更加详尽的测试，因此，至少对于一部分最初的工具，我们不会迅速发货，而是按照规定的配送时间表进行全面测试。
And secondly, as I mentioned, it will be dependent on the utilization of our capacity, right? Because fashivement is a way to get the tool, earlier to the customer, but it's also a way to optimize our capacity. So it will be driven by those two considerations, what we're going to see there next year in terms of type of shipment. And that will tell you, you know, whether or not we're going to get any tailwind for EUV revenue as a result of that.
其次，正如我之前提到的，这将取决于我们产能的利用情况，对吧？因为实现快速交付是为了更早地将工具送到客户手中，同时也是优化我们的产能的一种方式。所以，明年我们将根据这两点来确定出货类型的情况。这将告诉你，我们是否会因此获得任何用于EUV收入的顺风顺水。
Excellent. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll now go to your next question. Comes from the line of Alexander Devile from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
非常好。非常感谢。谢谢。现在我们将进入下一个问题。问题来自高盛银行的Alexander Devile。请开始。
Hi, May. Thanks for question. You spoke about a push out in demand timing for EUV. I wonder to what extent we should think about this as a one-off push out from 23 to 24, given the customers presumably would still need these tools for their fabs that are still getting built. And their customers in turn have product aspirations for 25 that you've just mentioned. Or to what extent would you expect some 2024 units to be subsequently pushed into 2025? And then I've got a quick follow-up.
嗨，梅。谢谢你的问题。你提到EUV需求时间的推迟，我想知道我们应该如何理解这是否只是从2023年推迟到2024年一次性的推迟，考虑到客户可能仍然需要这些设备用于他们仍在建设中的生产线。而且他们的客户反过来又对2025年有产品前景的期望。或者你是否预计部分2024年的设备会被进一步推迟到2025年？然后我有一个快速的追问。
Good question. We need to realize you had to look at the reasons predominantly the push has have to do with fab readiness. And that was basically driven by construction skills. And you think, well, how can that be, you know, just hire a couple of construction workers and you just build a fab. You know, just building a $20 billion fab that's going to do a 5 or 3 or a 2 nanometer product is a skill. And people don't seem to realize that when we start building those fabs across the globe now and are everywhere, that that skill has been refined over the last couple of decades in only a few places on the planet, predominantly in Taiwan and in Korea and a bit in China. Now having to do that now and accelerate this will lead to all kinds of issues because we are still building those fabs in Korea and in Taiwan, but also in other places on the planet, also in the US, for instance.
好问题。我们需要意识到，你必须看看主要原因，这与芯片生产准备工作有关。这主要是由建筑技能驱动的。你可能会想，那怎么可能呢，只要招几个建筑工人，然后就能建造一个生产5纳米、3纳米或2纳米产品的20亿美元的工厂。建造这样的工厂是一项技能。人们似乎没有意识到，当我们现在在全球范围内建造这些工厂时，这项技能已经在过去几十年中在地球上的少数地方得到了完善，主要是在台湾、韩国和中国一些地方。现在不得不加速建设工厂将导致各种问题，因为我们仍然在韩国、台湾以及其他地方建造这些工厂，包括美国。
So getting access to the requisite skills and skilled workers to keep the construction plan on time is a challenge. And so these were what customers tell us. Yeah. And this is the main reason. You can easily look at the day of a couple of months or a quarter. Now, and of course, like I mentioned earlier, we need those two nanometer fabs or three nanometer fabs in 2025. But it also means we need to resolve in, let's say, a 18 month period, yeah, some of those skills gaps. And then, you know, but I think, you know, it might easily be a problem also at the end of next year, but let's see how quickly they can scale up, you know, the construction industry to help build those fabs. So that's the predominant reason for the timing changes or the amount timing changes. And of course, there's also been in this particular year where there's a few supply chain issues that just one or two systems, but it was predominantly it was just fab readiness. And for the reasons that I just mentioned, then, you know, and I hope they could reskill quickly and that at the end of 2024, we don't have those issues.
因此，获得必要的技能和熟练工人以保持建筑计划按时进行是一个挑战。这就是客户告诉我们的事情。是的，这就是主要的原因。你可以很容易地看到几个月或一个季度的情况。现在，当然，正如我之前提到的，我们需要那些在2025年生产2纳米或3纳米芯片的工厂。但这也意味着我们需要在18个月内解决一些技能差距。然后，你知道，我认为，这可能在明年年底也很容易成为一个问题，但让我们看看他们能多快地扩大规模，你知道，建筑业来帮助建造这些工厂。这就是时间变动或数量变动的主要原因。当然，在今年特别的一年中，也发生了一些供应链问题，只是一两个系统，但主要是因为工厂准备不足。出于我刚才提到的原因，我希望他们能够迅速重新掌握技能，这样在2024年底不会有这些问题。
Hey, thanks. And just a quick follow up. We've seen some news flow on demand for leading edge ships driven by AI applications. Can you just share your latest views on any growth opportunity from AI in 2024, given that obviously 2023 shipment schedules are full? I think you alluded in your video prepared remarks to that potentially being incrementally supportive driver of demand. So just curious for any thoughts there.
嘿，谢谢。再补充一下。我们注意到一些关于AI应用推动领先技术船舶需求的新闻报道。鉴于明显2023年的货运计划已满，您能否分享一下关于2024年AI带来的增长机会的最新看法？我认为您在视频准备的发言中提到了这可能是需求的局部支持驱动因素。所以我只是想了解一下相关的想法。
Yeah, I think that's true. But I think we're at the beginning of this of this, you could say, AI, high power compute wave. So yes, you'll probably see some of that in 2024. But you have to remember that we have some capacity there, which is called the current under utilization. So yes, we will see some of that, but that will being taken up that particular demand by the install base. Now, and that will further accelerate. I'm pretty sure.
是的，我认为这是正确的。但我认为我们现在只是AI和高性能计算浪潮的开始。所以是的，在2024年你可能会看到一些这样的情况。但你要记住我们在这方面还有一些能力，也就是目前的未充分利用。所以是的，我们会看到一些这样的情况，但这将会被现有的安装基础所满足。现在，这将进一步加速。我非常确定。
Yeah, but that will definitely mean that that will be, you could say the, you know, ship to customer by 2025. So I don't see that or don't particularly expect that that will be a big driver for, you know, additional shipments in 2020 for a given, you know, utilization situation that we see today. Very clear. Thank you. Thank you. We'll now go to the next question.
是的，但这肯定意味着到2025年，可以说那将是向客户交付的船只。所以我不认为，也不特别预计，这将成为2020年额外出货的主要推动因素，就我们今天所看到的利用率情况而言。非常清楚。谢谢。谢谢。现在我们转到下一个问题。
And your next question comes from the line of do Khatriki from Wells Fargo. Please go ahead.
你下一个问题来自富国银行的卡特里基先生，请提问。请讲。
Yeah, thanks for taking the question. One on domestic China domain, you talked about a fill rate that was less than 50%. Do you expect to be caught up to that exiting this year? Are we still trying to kind of fulfill that domain looking into 24?
是的，感谢您回答我的问题。关于中国本土市场，您提到填充率不到50%。您预计今年是否能赶上这个指标？我们是否仍在努力实现该领域目标，并延续到2024年？
Yeah, I think I think we're still, like we said, also. In the prepare remarks that the demand is still more than we can ship. So that also means that we still have a fill rate that's not 100%. It's still lower than of course it's significantly higher than the significantly lower than 50% that we saw in 21 and 22, you know, where we had, you know, screaming customers that we simply couldn't ship enough. And you know, China was, you know, one of the real victims. Now of course today with the fabs being ready there, the pedestals being there, you know, anything that doesn't ship to any under country goes to China. But there's still some, you know, demand that will move into 2024 because we don't have 100% fill rate today. Got it. Thanks for that.
是的，我认为我们仍然像我们说的那样。在准备的发言中，需求仍然超过我们能够发货的量。这也意味着我们的交付率仍然不是100%。它仍然低于我们在21和22年看到的明显低于50%的交付率，当时我们有一些需求非常旺盛的客户，我们无法满足。而且，中国是真正受影响的国家之一。当然，现在随着那里的工厂准备就绪，基座就位，任何不运往其他国家的产品都会运往中国。但由于今天我们的交付率仍然没有达到100%，仍然会有一部分需求延至2024年。明白了，谢谢你的解释。
And then this is a follow up in the recovery of the install based management business that you talked about implied for 4223. Is that predicated on just logic alone or is there also some expectation that you see some memory recovery embedded in that?
接下来，这是关于你所提及的针对4223的基于安装的管理业务恢复的后续问题。这个恢复是仅仅依靠逻辑还是你也预期其中会包含一些内存恢复？
Yeah, I think we don't, yes, the solver down the line, there will be a recovery, yeah, because then that's going to be, probably when we go through these inflection points in the second half of this year. And then it's all about the, you know, slope of the recovery. And this is where we have some uncertainty that we expressed loud and clear, I think, you know, and that's the uncertainty that we get from customers because they don't know either. So I think it's a bit too early. I think it's fair to assume that a utilization rates of memory are lower than the utilization rate on logic, right?
是的，我认为我们现在并不确定，是的，解决方案出现后，会有一次复苏，是的，因为那时可能是我们在今年下半年经历这些拐点的时候。然后这一切都取决于恢复的速度。这也是我们表达出来的一些不确定性，我认为，你知道的，这种不确定性也来自我们的客户，因为他们也不知道。所以我认为现在还为时过早。我认为可以合理地假设存储器的利用率低于逻辑的利用率，对吗？
Yeah, sure. And it's reasonable to assume that logic would be ahead of the curve and the interest of the interest of great. Yeah, also because, you know, like I said earlier, we could argue when we look at the stats, you could already see an inflection point, but it's, like I said, it's very early on. So we'll just have to see how that continues over the next couple of weeks and months of logic.
没问题。合乎情理的假设是逻辑会领先并深受众人的兴趣。是的，还有因为，就像我之前说的，当我们查看数据时，你已经可以看到一个拐点，但是，就像我说的，现在还为时过早。所以我们只能等待在接下来的几周和几个月里，逻辑会如何发展。
Perfect. Thanks for the color. Thank you. So now goes your next question.
太好了。谢谢你给的颜色。谢谢你。现在该问你下一个问题了。
And your next question comes from the line of CJ Muse from EwaCore. Isi, please go ahead.
您的下一个问题来自EwaCore的CJ Muse，请告诉我们，Isi。
Yeah, good afternoon. Thanks for taking the question. I guess first question for Rojay. I think you're fairly clear on the call that no changes to kind of the capacity ads. So curious how we should think about op X growth into 2024.
是的，下午好。感谢您来回答我的问题。我首先要问的问题是关于Rojay的。我觉得您在电话会议上对于容量广告没有任何变化的问题非常清楚。因此，我想知道我们应该如何看待2024年经营支出的增长情况。
Yeah, I think the op X that we're currently guiding for the year, I think that's a pretty good estimate, I think, for what we see for the rest of the year. I think in terms of next year, I think it would also be a little bit dependent on how we further see things develop. And that to a certain extent will at least drive also the SG&A side of life. On R&D, as you know, we continue to have really good ideas. And on R&D, we typically try to play this on the longer term. So I think it is realistic to assume that on R&D, you will see some increase, albeit at a slightly lower pace than the very sharp increases that you've seen in the past couple of years.
是的，我认为我们目前为今年制定的运营计划X是一个相当不错的估计，我认为这也能预示着今年剩余时间的发展情况。至于明年，我觉得它也会在一定程度上取决于我们进一步观察到的事情的发展情况。而这某种程度上至少也会推动 SG&A 方面的发展。在研发方面，正如你所知，我们一直有很好的想法。通常情况下，我们会把研发放在更长远的考虑上。所以我认为可以合理地假设，在研发方面，你将会看到一些增加，尽管增速可能会比过去几年里那种急剧的增长稍微缓和一些。
Very helpful. And then Peter, I guess as a follow up, you know, I know that you're actively working with the Dutch government, but curious, you know, as to your kind of thoughts around any potential timeline from hearing from maybe more restrictive kind of thoughts out of the US government.
非常有帮助。然后彼得，我猜作为后续问题，我知道你正在与荷兰政府积极合作，但很好奇，你对美国政府可能出现更多限制性想法的时间表有什么看法。
Yeah, you know, of course, we have regular discussion with it now, you know, Dutch government, which is inactive because of the political situation here. So we're going to prepare for new elections. But I think we just have to wait for what comes out of the US now, you know. But the reason why we said based on what our understanding is, and I jokingly said here internally, it wasn't even jokingly. I actually meant it.
是的，你知道的，当然，我们现在与荷兰政府进行定期讨论，但由于这里的政治局势不稳定，政府基本上是无所作为的。因此，我们将为新的选举做准备。但我认为我们现在只能等待美国的决定，你知道的。但我们之所以这样说，是基于我们的理解，我在内部开玩笑地说了这句话，但那并不是开玩笑，我是真的这么想的。
You know, I've been in this business for quite a long time. And my hunch about what the Dutch were finally going to say in the end was about right. So this is why we informed you in March. And I also have a kind of a hunch on what's going to happen for the rest of the year and with the new rules. And am I just gut feel is based on what we hear and our understanding is not going to have a material in their impact, but having said that we don't know exactly what the content of those new regulations is going to be. But we just have to wait. I think Japan came out, the Dutch came out. I think the US government will probably come out soon. And they will know for sure whether my hunch and my gut feel was correct.
你知道，我在这个行业已经很久了。关于荷兰人最后会说些什么，我的直觉大致是对的。所以这就是为什么我们在三月通知你的原因。对于今年剩下的时间和新规定，我也有一种直觉。尽管我们的直觉是基于我们听到的和我们的理解，不会对它们产生实质性的影响，但是话虽如此，我们并不知道这些新规定的具体内容是什么。我们只能等待。我想，日本已经表态了，荷兰也表态了。美国政府很可能也会很快表态。他们会确切知道我的直觉是否正确。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
All right. We have time for one last question. If you are unable to get through on this call and still have questions, please feel free to contact the ASL investor relations department with your question. Now, operator, may we have the last caller, please. Thank you. We will now take your last question for today. And the question comes from Tommy Cugh from Berrenberg. Please go ahead.
好的，我们还有时间回答最后一个问题。如果您在这次通话中无法提问或者仍然有问题，请随时联系ASL投资者关系部门提出您的问题。现在，请操作员通话最后一个来电者。谢谢。现在，让我们来回答你今天的最后一个问题。这个问题来自Berrenberg的Tommy Cugh，请提问。
Hi. Thank you for scooting me in. So firstly, Peter, relating to your China exposure. Do you have any format of customer concentration? I, does one or few customer accounting for more than, let's say, 50% of the demand from China at all?
你好。感谢你把我介绍进来。首先，彼得，关于你在中国的业务暴露度。你是否有任何客户集中度的形式？也就是说，有没有一个或几个客户占据了来自中国超过50%的需求？
No. I think it's the, the number of customers in China is significantly higher than, and I just talk about the spread of the customer significantly higher than anywhere on the planet. It has to do with the fact that it all goes back to where Chinese industry, don't talk about the semiconductor industry, but industry in general is actually growing. It grows in those areas, which are covered by the big mega trends. And that means that specific requirements for semiconductors to support those trends actually ask for very significant and different applications that put the demand on this wide range of mid-critical to mature semiconductors. And that's a lot. And that also means that you see customers, semiconductor customers, now focusing on certain of those areas. And it means you have many, many customers. And that's all, it's, it's, it's pretty widespread, whether it's memory, whether it's logic, a foundry, it's almost everything, but many of them. And they're much focused on specific parts of the industry. So yeah, it's, it's, it's on the contrary. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's not specifically focused on one or two customers. It's, it's a broad base.
不。我认为在中国的客户数量明显高于其他任何地方，并且我刚刚谈到的客户数量的增长也是如此。这与中国工业有关，不仅仅是半导体行业，而是整个工业的发展。它主要发展在那些受到大型全球趋势影响的领域。这意味着为了支持这些趋势，对半导体的特定需求实际上要求用于广泛范围的中度和成熟半导体的不同应用。这是一个巨大的需求。这也意味着你可以看到半导体客户现在专注于这些领域中的某些部分。所以说，你会看到许多许多的客户，而且非常广泛，无论是存储器、逻辑电路还是晶圆代工，几乎所有领域都涉及，但是有很多种类。而且他们非常专注于行业的特定部分。所以是的，与之相反。我的意思是，没有特别专注于其中一两个客户。它是基于广泛的基础之上。
Okay, thank you. And also you mentioned that you can actually ship the mid-critical machines to China and still basically allow them to do whatever they want to. So let's say the main stream you are shipping to China from the immersion perspective in 1980, if you can only ship something like 1970 or older machine, do you think that can allow them still do what they want to do?
好的，谢谢。而且你还提到你实际上可以把中等关键的机器发往中国，并基本上让他们做任何他们想做的事情。所以假设从1980年开始，根据浸入式视角，你只能发运类似于1970年或更旧的机器，你认为这样可以让他们仍然做他们想做的事情吗？
Yeah, you have to realize that when you ship an immersion tool and just do the math, which is, you know, the wavelength of the light over the numerical aperture of the lens. That's, that's 193 over 1.3, 1.33. Yeah. Times a K factor, which is the process factor, which is, which has an absolute minimum of 0.26 because beyond that, you don't have any contrast. So if you do the math, you do it on your calculator, you come to 38 nanometer. So whether it's a one 1970 or a 1980 or a 2000 or 2100, it's 38 nanometer. So how do you get smaller, you know, sizes? That is where you start using double patterning. And that's basically determined by your capabilities of materials, which is deposition and edge. So it's, of course, the most advanced have one determining factor in that, you know, it's the precision with which the tool works. And this is where if you look at the Dutch regulation, it doesn't mention a type name. It just mentions a technical specification, which focuses on the precision with which the tool works. That's where the cutoff point is. But in terms of feature size, it's the same. But it's really the precision with which you can position the feature sizes on the wafer. That's where the cutoff point is. And that's determined in the regulation. Yeah. So it's all deposition and edge. Yeah.
是的，你必须意识到当你发货一个浸没工具并做计算时，即光的波长除以镜头的数值孔径。那就是193除以1.3，1.33，再乘以一个K因子，即工艺因子，绝对最小值为0.26，因为超过这个值就没有对比度了。所以如果你做计算，用你的计算器，得到的值是38纳米。所以不管是1970年还是1980年或者2000年或2100年，都是38纳米。那么你如何做到更小的尺寸呢？这就是你开始使用双重绘图的地方。这基本上取决于你的材料能力，包括沉积和边缘。当然，最先进的工具一个决定性因素就是工具的精度。这就是为什么如果你看看荷兰的规定，它并没有提到具体的类型名称，只是提到了一个技术规范，重点是工具的精度。这就是截止点所在。但就特征尺寸来说，是一样的。但真正重要的是你能够在晶圆上精确定位特征尺寸的精度。这是规定中确定的。所以这全部都是沉积和边缘的问题。
Okay. Thank you.
好的。谢谢你。
All right. Now on behalf of ASML, I'd like to thank you all for joining us today. Operator, if you could formally conclude the call, I'd appreciate it.
好的。现在代表ASML我想感谢大家今天的参与。操作员，如果你能正式结束通话，我会很感谢。
Thank you. Thank you. I'd like to conclude the ASML 2023 second quarter financial results conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.
谢谢大家。谢谢大家。我想要结束ASML 2023年第二季度财务结果电话会议。感谢大家的参与。现在您可以挂机了。