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Luis von Ahn, Co-Founder of Duolingo — How to Be (Truly) Mission-Driven, 10x Growth, and More

发布时间 2022-07-14 07:12:07    来源

摘要

Luis von Ahn, Co-Founder and CEO of Duolingo — How to Be (Truly) Mission-Driven, Monetization Experiments, 10x Growth, Org Chart Iterations for Impacting Metrics, The Intricate Path to an IPO, Best Hiring Practices, Catching Exam Cheaters, The Allure of Toto Toilets, The Future of Duolingo, and How to Stand Out in Your Career | Brought to you by Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement (https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim), Helix Sleep premium mattresses (http://helixsleep.com/tim), and LinkedIn Jobs recruitment platform with 800M+ users (https://linkedin.com/Tim). Luis von Ahn (@LuisvonAhn) is an entrepreneur and consulting professor at Carnegie Mellon University, who is considered one of the pioneers of crowdsourcing. He is known for co-inventing CAPTCHAs, being a MacArthur fellow, and selling two companies to Google in his twenties. He is currently the co-founder and CEO of Duolingo, a language-learning platform created to bring free language education to the world. With more than 500 million users, it is now the most popular language-learning platform and the most downloaded education app in the world. Luis has been named one of the Brilliant 10 by Popular Science, one of the 50 Best Brains in Science by Discover, one of the Innovators Under 35 by MIT Technology Review, and one of the 100 Most Creative People in Business by Fast Company. Luis also won the 2018 Lemelson-MIT prize, the largest cash prize for invention in the U.S. Show notes: https://tim.blog/2022/07/12/luis-von-ahn/ Please enjoy! SUBSCRIBE: http://bit.ly/1dSzTkW 00:00 Start 00:01:29 Why the Duolingo owl is green 00:03:11 The core cause behind Duolingo’s creation, and how Duolingo has evolved over the years 00:09:43 Duolingo’s monetization efforts that didn’t quite pan out 00:18:22 After initial reluctance, how was the Duolingo workforce convinced monetization needed to happen? 00:22:37 As machine-driven translation services get more sophisticated, will human beings still seek to learn other languages via Duolingo? 00:27:16 The most pursued/influential languages in the Duolingo system currently 00:36:17 The development of Duolingo’s org chart 00:43:22 Why Duolingo uses a daily metric 00:46:35 Book recommendations 00:48:33 Luis’s most worthwhile investments 00:50:40 New beliefs, behaviors, or habits 00:54:04 Recent life-changing purchases 01:01:35 What Luis’s updated 2022 billboard might say 01:05:39 What Luis means when he refers to Duolingo’s “mission,” and how the company’s long view affects decision making 01:12:45 How Duolingo hires good candidates for the long haul 01:19:56 Why and how Duolingo went public 01:28:09 The biggest challenges Luis faces as CEO of a public company 01:33:02 Duolingo is expanding to teach more than languages 01:39:02 The Duolingo English Test: proficiency testing from home accepted by 4,200 academic programs across the world 01:42:52 How Luis’s expertise at catching cheaters during his time as a professor at Carnegie Mellon makes Duolingo products more trustworthy as accredited sources 01:47:10 The brief conversation with Luis’ personal trainer that changed his routine breakfast — to a different routine breakfast 01:48:06 Advice to young, driven people entering the working world 01:52:05 How Luis has become better at saying “No.” 01:53:53 Luis’s request of the audience and parting thoughts About Tim Ferriss: Tim Ferriss is one of Fast Company’s “Most Innovative Business People” and an early-stage tech investor/advisor in Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ other companies. He is also the author of five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers: The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body, The 4-Hour Chef, Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors. The Observer and other media have named him “the Oprah of audio” due to the influence of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, which has exceeded 700 million downloads and been selected for “Best of Apple Podcasts” three years running. Connect with Tim Ferriss: Sign up for "5-Bullet Friday" (Tim's free weekly email newsletter): https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-yt/ Visit the Tim Ferriss PODCAST: https://tim.blog/podcast/ Visit the Tim Ferriss BLOG: https://tim.blog/ Follow Tim Ferriss on TWITTER: https://twitter.com/tferriss/ Follow Tim Ferriss on INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/timferriss/ Like Tim Ferriss on FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/

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中英文字稿  

Hello boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show. My guest today is Luis Vaughan on you can find him on Twitter at Luis L.U.I.S.V.O.N.A.H.N. Luis is an entrepreneur and consulting professor at Carnegie Mellon University who is considered one of the pioneers of crowdsourcing.
大家好，我是蒂姆·费里斯。欢迎来到蒂姆·费里斯秀的另一期节目。今天我的嘉宾是路易斯·沃恩，你可以在他的推特账户@LuisL.U.I.S.V.O.N.A.H.N上找到他。路易斯是一位企业家，也是卡内基梅隆大学的咨询教授，被认为是群众外包的先驱之一。

He is known for conventing captures, being a MacArthur fellow and selling two companies to Google in his 20s. He is currently the co-founder and CEO of Duolingo, a language learning platform created to bring free language education to the world. With more than 500 million users, it is now the most popular language learning platform and the most downloaded education app in the world.
他以转换捕获物而知名，是麦克阿瑟研究员，并在二十多岁时将两家公司出售给谷歌。他目前是Duolingo的联合创始人兼首席执行官，这是一个旨在为全球带来免费语言教育的语言学习平台。它拥有超过5亿用户，现在是最受欢迎的语言学习平台和全球下载量最多的教育应用程序。

Luis has been named one of the brilliant 10 by popular science, one of the 50 best brains in science by discover, one of the innovators under 35 by MIT Technology Review and one of the 100 most creative people in business by fast company. Luis also won the 2018 Lemelson MIT Prize, the largest cast prize for invention in the United States.
路易斯被《大众科学》评为辉煌10人之一，被《发现》杂志评为50位最杰出的科学家之一，被MIT技术评论评为35岁以下的创新者之一，被《快公司》评为100位最具创造力的商界人士之一。路易斯还获得了2018年莱姆森MIT奖，这是美国最大的发明奖金。

Luis, it has been a while since we spoke. Last, it was 2016 when we had a conversation on this podcast. Welcome back. It's nice to see you. Thank you for having me, Tim.
路易斯，我们已经有一段时间没聊天了。上一次是在2016年我们在这个播客上进行的对话。欢迎回来。很高兴见到你。谢谢你邀请我，蒂姆。

And I thought we could start with just a few bits of trivia, a little bit of history. And why don't we start with why the Duolingo Owl is green? Would you mind just explaining that for people?
我认为我们可以从一些琐事和一点历史开始。我们可以先从Duolingo绿色猫头鹰的缘由说起。你能否为人们解释一下这个缘由？

Yes, so hopefully most people have seen the Duolingo Owl. It's our mascot. First of all, it's an owl because in most Western countries, owls represent knowledge. Turns out this is just not true at all in Asia. And now that we've been expanding to Asia, people ask us why the hell are you using an owl? Owls are just kind of vicious animals. But okay, it's an owl. And it's green and it is a ridiculous reason why it's green.
是的，希望大多数人都见过Duolingo的猫头鹰吧。它是我们的吉祥物。首先，它是一只猫头鹰，因为在大多数西方国家，猫头鹰代表知识。但是事实证明，在亚洲这完全不成立。现在我们也在向亚洲扩展，人们问我们，为什么你们用一只猫头鹰？猫头鹰只是一种凶猛的动物。但好吧，它是一只猫头鹰。它是绿色的，这个绿色的原因很荒唐。

When we were getting started, my co-founder Severin, who's an amazing guy, his last name is hacker, Severin hacker. That's name ever. I still think it's made up. He swears it's not. This is a computer science person whose last name is hacker. But he, you know, we were getting started and we had a design team that was working on our logo and everything. And we thought we wanted a mascot. We thought it was important to have a mascot because well, it would kind of help people learn and it would make our brand iconic, et cetera. And it that turned out to be true.
当我们刚开始时，我的联合创始人塞弗林是个了不起的人，他的姓氏是“黑客”，Severin Hacker。这是一个最棒的名字，我仍然认为它是编造的。但他发誓它不是。他是一位计算机科学家，姓氏是黑客。我们刚开始的时候，有一个设计团队正在为我们的标志和一切工作。我们认为需要一个吉祥物。因为它将有助于人们了解我们，使我们的品牌变得标志性等等。最后证明这确实是正确的。

And we came up with the idea of an owl. And then, you know, we were just talking about things. And then Severin was not very involved in the design process at all. And he had some point the designers asked them, well, is there anything you care about in terms of design? He said, look, there's only one thing I care about. And it is that I hate the color green. And so we thought it would be funny if he was the co founder of a company where most of our colors were green. And that's he's had to live with that for, you know, 10 years.
我们想出了一个猫头鹰的想法。然后，你知道的，我们只是在聊着事情。Severin在设计过程中并没有参与太多。在某个时候，设计师问他们，有没有关于设计方面在乎的事情？他说，看，我只在意一件事，那就是我讨厌绿色。所以我们想要开个玩笑，让他成为一个公司的联合创始人，而我们大部分的颜色都是绿色。这是他必须生活了十年的结果。

All right. And we will try to not replicate too much of the first conversation, but I think a little connective tissue and context for folks would be helpful. So I'm going to try to do a quick recap of a few points. And I want you to correct anything that I get wrong and certainly add in any color that you think would be helpful.
好的，我们将尽量避免重复第一次谈话的内容，但我认为提供一些衔接和背景对大家会有帮助。因此，我将尝试快速回顾一些要点。请您纠正我任何错误，并加入您认为有帮助的任何细节。

So you were born and raised in in Guatemala. And you were raised by two parents, both medical doctors, you ended up. I think it started with receiving a Commodore 64 much to your disappointment instead of an Nintendo becoming evolved with taking things apart and learning computer science. And flash forward you in skipping a lot of steps here, but had developed a technology and a company recapture, which after about a year and a half sold to Google.
所以你在危地马拉出生和成长。你的父母都是医生，你在他们的照顾下长大。你的兴趣开始于获得一台Commodore 64电脑，尽管你本来希望能得到一个任天堂游戏机，然后你开始对拆卸东西和学习计算机科学感兴趣。接下来发生了很多事情，但你成功开发了一项技术和一家名为Recapture的公司，大约一年半后该公司被Google收购。

Those people have filled out a capture or recapture to prove they're not a robot or a bot. And a year and a half later, this Severin hacker, he've already mentioned, who is then a PhD student of yours was looking for a PhD project. And that led to a conversation, including the observation that number one language or I should say education was important to both you and that in your home country of Guatemala.
这些人已经填写了一个"捕获"或"再捕获"表格来证明他们不是机器人或机器人程序。一年半后，Severin黑客被提到，他当时是你的博士生，并正在寻找博士项目。这导致了一次对话，包括观察到教育是你和你的家乡危地马拉都十分重要的首要语言。

And education was in a sense, an obstacle to overcoming socioeconomic areas and to elevating your life because of the cost involved. So the rich were able to educate themselves and sort of perpetuate that cycle of wealth, whereas the poor were not. And there were many, many different facets of this, which led then to what would later become dualingo.
教育在某种程度上是克服社会经济差距、提高生活水平的障碍，因为它涉及到教育的成本。所以，富人能够接受教育，并延续财富循环；而穷人则不能。而这种情况有很多不同方面，最终导致了后来的duolingo。

So that roughly accurate, that's exactly right. We can wrap up now we're done. All right. And I don't know when you and I can't recall offhand when we first connected. I want to say it was somewhere between 2010 and 2012. It must have been. It was around 2010 or 2011.
大致准确，完全正确。我们现在可以结束了。好的。我不知道你和我是何时第一次联系。我想说可能是2010年到2012年之间。一定是那个时候，大概是在2010年或2011年左右。

So right in that range. And early, early days with respect to dualingo. And the last time we spoke, you had. This was in 2016 last time we spoke on the podcast. Roughly 60 employees. So could you just give us a then and now comparison of dualingo then. Dualingo now. What the biggest differences are.
所以，这一范围内是正确的。而且关于Dualingo，还处于早期阶段。上一次我们在播客上交谈是在2016年，当时你们大约有60名员工。因此，你能否给我们一个Dualingo过去和现在的比较，最大的区别是什么。

Yeah. I mean, so we've grown a lot as a company. Of course, we now have about 600 employees. So of course, 10x then employees. We used to be back then we were a private privately held company VC funded. We are now a publicly traded company. That was a big. A big milestone for us.
是的。我的意思是，我们公司有很大的发展。现在我们有大约600名员工了，相比之下，我们一开始只有很少的员工。过去我们是一家由风险投资支持的私有公司，但现在我们成为了一家公开上市公司，这对我们来说是一个重大的里程碑。

Another big thing that changed between 2016 and now is.
自2016年至今发生的另一个重大变化是……

We really figured out how to monetize dualingo. When we launched dualingo, the thing we cared the most about is that it was a free way to learn languages. And at first, we just weren't concerned too much about. Figure out how to make money. And the way we supported ourselves was through venture capital. We just kept on raising, you know, more and more venture capital.
我们真正弄清楚了如何让Duolingo变现。当我们推出Duolingo时，我们最关心的事情就是它是一种免费的学习语言的方式。而最初，我们并不太关心如何赚钱。我们支持自己的方式是通过风险投资。我们不断地筹集着越来越多的风险投资。

And at the time, the prevailing wisdom was, hey, don't worry too much about making money. Just grow your users. And this is this is what we did. And the way we grew our users, by the way, is not through marketing. Because since we weren't making any money, we thought it was kind of a waste of our money to spend to acquire users. If we weren't making money on the other side.
当时，普遍的观点是：“不要太担心赚钱，只要扩大你的用户群就可以了。” 这正是我们所做的。而我们扩大用户群的方式并不是通过市场营销，因为由于我们没有赚到钱，我们认为为了获取用户而花费金钱是一种浪费。

So the way we grew our users was just by making the product better and better. And it grew through word of mouth. And I think what one thing that happened is around 2015, 2016. You know, we had raised a bunch of venture capital. I mean, probably around $100 million total at the time. And we still weren't monetizing at all, but we had grown to a pretty good amount of users, active users.
我们增加用户的方式是通过让产品不断变得更好，并靠口碑传播。我认为，在2015年或2016年左右发生了一件事情。我们筹集了大量风险投资，总额可能达到1亿美元左右。当时我们还没有开始盈利，但我们已经拥有了相当数量的用户和活跃用户。

We raised around the funding from, at the time, was called Google Capital. And now it's called Capital G. And the partner that was on our board, Layla Sturdy, took me out to a bar. And she said, listen, you've been raising a lot of capital and your valuation keeps going up and up. At the time, I think we were valued at something like half a billion dollars or something. But right now you're just raising money from Google. And let me tell you, there is no bigger fool. Like you're not going to find another bigger fool to raise money at a higher valuation with no revenue. You got to figure out how to make money.
我们当时从一家叫做Google Capital（现在叫做Capital G）的公司筹集了一些资金。我们的董事会合伙人Layla Sturdy带我去了一家酒吧，告诉我：现在你已经筹集了大量资金，估值不断上升。当时我们的估值大概是五亿美元左右。但是现在你只从Google那里筹集资金。然而，你要知道，再也找不到比Google更愿意愚蠢地在没有收入的情况下以更高的估值来投资的人了。你必须想办法盈利。

And so she gave me enough drinks that convinced me to promise her that next time we spoke in six months, I would have figured out how to make money. And so I went back and I like, all right, everybody, we got to figure out how to make money. And we did, but it was very important to us. We really cared that we, you know, the easiest way to make money when you're teaching somebody is just to charge them to learn.
因此，她给了我足够的饮料，让我答应她，在六个月后我们下次交谈时，我会想出如何赚钱的办法。于是我回去了，告诉大家，“我们必须想出赚钱的方法”。我们成功想出方法了，但这对我们来说非常重要。我们真的很重视，因为当你教别人时，最简单的赚钱方法就是收费学费。

That's kind of how education monetizes. It was very important for us that we didn't do that because the mission of our company was really, you know, related to giving access to education to everybody for free. So, and we were little constrained here in the end, we ended up finding a monetization model that worked out really well, which is this premium model that is similar to what the dating apps do or what Spotify does, which is, you don't have to pay, but you may have to see some ads at the end of a lesson.
这就是教育商业化的一种方式。但对于我们非常重要的是，我们不想那样做，因为我们公司的使命是希望为所有人免费提供教育。因此，我们受到一些限制，但最终找到了一种非常好的赚钱模式，这就是高级会员模式，类似于约会应用或Spotify所做的那样。你不需要付费，但在课程结束时可能会看到一些广告。

We make money from the ads. And then if you don't like the ads, you can pay us to subscribe to a premium version of the wellingo. And then we turn off the ads and we give you a few extra perks. And that combo worked out really well. I mean, well enough that that is basically what we use to IPO, you know, it has grown to hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue.
我们通过广告来赚钱。如果你不喜欢广告，你可以付费订阅我们的高级版本wellingo。然后我们会关闭广告并给您一些额外的优惠。这种组合效果非常好。我是说，效果足够好，我们用它去进行了IPO（首次公开募股），收益已经增长到数亿美元。

So that worked out really well. And we're also very proud of that because of that dualingo, you know, it used to be that dualingo was the most downloaded app in the education category. It's still this. But now it's also the highest top grossing app in the education category to make more money than all other education apps. And we're very proud that you can still use dualing when entirely for free.
那真的很成功。我们也为此感到非常自豪，因为Dulingo曾是教育类应用中下载量最高的应用程序，至今仍然如此。但现在它也是教育类应用程序中最赚钱的应用程序，比其他所有教育类应用程序的收入都要更高。我们非常自豪的是，您仍然可以完全免费使用Dulingo。

So even though, you know, most other education apps you have to pay to use them hours. In fact, something like 97% of our users or active users use dualingo for free. Still we make more money and all the education apps. So we're very proud of that. The monetization has was a big shift in our company.
虽然大多数其他教育应用程序需要花费数小时才能使用，但实际上，例如97%的用户或活跃用户可免费使用Duolingo。尽管如此，我们比所有教育应用程序都赚更多钱。因此，我们非常自豪。在我们公司中，盈利转变是一次重大变革。

I have questions about monetization. And then I want to come back to Laila and talk about. Orchard, maybe another conversation, maybe fewer drinks.
我有些关于货币化的问题。然后我想回到莱拉这个话题，可能再谈一下奥查德，也许少喝点酒。 意思：我想提出一些关于货币化的问题，并回到之前谈到的莱拉话题，也许再讨论一下奥查德，但是可能不需要喝太多酒。

Laila is one of my favorite people. Laila is awesome. Yeah. So we're going to come back to Laila and give her more credit.
莱拉是我最喜欢的人之一。莱拉很棒。是的，所以我们会回来赞扬莱拉，给她更多的肯定。

Do you remember what types of drinks she was feeding you? Do you have any idea or did the memory go out the window?
你记得她给你喂的是什么类型的饮料吗？你有任何想法，还是记忆已经消失了？

You know, I don't know that night. Honestly, I don't know. Yeah, no problem. It was at a bar near the dualingo office. It's about a block away from the dualingo office. Kelly's bar.
你知道吗，那晚我不记得了。老实说，我不知道。没问题，那是在双语吧附近的一家酒吧。离双语吧只有一个街区的距离，叫凯利酒吧。

Kelly's bar. All right. It's the scene of the crime. So we're going to come back to that. I wanted to return to monetization. And I'll just mention to folks as foreshadowing, the reason I'm interested in talking about the Orchard is because, again, this will test my memory of the first conversation.
凯利的酒吧。好吧，这就是犯罪现场。所以我们会回到那里。我想回到货币化问题。而且我会提前告诉大家，我对谈论The Orchard感兴趣的原因是因为，再次测试我第一次对话的记忆。

But as I recall, when you sold recapture to Google, you had maybe six, seven or eight employees, something like that. Yeah, around 10. Okay. Around 10 employees. And then for a while, I want to say maybe into the 30 to 40 employee range, you had a very flat organizational structure, so to speak. Yes, I'm doing. Effectively a lack of hierarchy at dualingo. And although you had a lot of experience with computer science, certainly, and product development and thinking about the technical side of things, building a company of 600 people was not one of them at that point. I had no, no previous knowledge of how to do this. Yeah, right. So that's why I want to come back to the Orchard.
但是据我回忆，当你把Recapture卖给谷歌时，你可能只有六七八个员工，大约是这样。对，大约是10个人。好的，大约是10个员工。然后有一段时间，我想说大约到了30到40个员工的范围内，你们有一个非常扁平的组织结构。是的，我这样做了。实际上，双语吧一直存在缺乏层级结构的情况。虽然你在计算机科学、产品开发和考虑技术方面有很多经验，但建立一个拥有600人的公司当时并不是你的强项。我以前没有任何关于如何做这件事的知识。是的，对。所以这就是我想回到Orchard的原因。

But first, on the monetization side, what are some of the things that you tried that didn't quite work? And why did they not work just in terms of whether primary or ancillary models? Because that, that I recall as someone who is one of the pioneers of crowdsourcing, you certainly have come up with many different ideas for how you might approach this.
首先，在商业化方面，您尝试了哪些事情没有完全奏效？以及为什么它们没有奏效，是主要模型还是附属模型的问题？因为我记得作为众包的先驱之一，您肯定想出了许多不同的创意来应对这个情况。

The first thing we tried, and this is before the Layla talk. And it was just very early on we tried this and it was a really clever idea. But ultimately, I just don't think it was a very good way to monetize. Very early on when we had started dualingo, what we said we would do is look, there were all these people that were learning a language in dualingo for free.
我们尝试的第一件事，在Layla谈话之前。这是我们很早就尝试过的一件事，非常聪明的想法。但最终，我认为这不是一种很好的盈利方式。在我们刚开始经营Dulingo时，我们说过，我们会看一看这里有很多人在免费使用Dulingo学习语言。

We thought rather than giving them ads or charging them, we would get them to do some work for us in exchange of the learning. And so the idea was going to, was the following. In fact, we built this and it worked. The idea was the following. Imagine you were a Spanish speaker who was learning English on dualingo. You know, you would learn for free, et cetera.
我们想，与其给他们展示广告或收费，不如让他们为我们做一些工作，以换取学习机会。因此，我们有了一个想法，实际上我们已经建立了这个想法并且它运作得很好。这个想法是这样的：想象一下，你是一名正在使用Duolingo 学习英语的西班牙语学习者。你可以免费学习等等。

At the end of your lesson, we would say, hey, you just practiced food words. Do you want to practice with a real world news article about food that is in English, you're learning English, and to practice, can you help us translate that into your native language of Spanish? And, you know, we would give you like a paragraph of that or something. And then we would give many people the same paragraph and try to get them to translate it. And it turned out that actually got really good translations.
在你课程结束时，我们会说，“嘿，你刚刚练习了食物词汇。你想用一篇英语的关于食物的新闻文章来练习吗？你正在学习英语，练习一下，你能帮我们将其翻译成你的母语西班牙语吗？”然后，我们会给你一个段落之类的东西。然后，我们会让很多人翻译相同的段落，并尝试让他们翻译出来。结果表明，实际上得到了非常好的翻译。

So what ended up happening is we signed a contract with CNN, where CNN would send us all their news in English. Then our users to practice their English would translate those articles into Spanish. And then, you know, we kind of combined all of the different translations into one translation. And we had all this kind of multi-step process to clean up the translation, et cetera. And then we would send back a translated version to CNN into Spanish that they could post in their Spanish site. And they would pay us for that.
于是，我们和CNN签订了一份合同，他们会将所有英文新闻发送给我们。那么，我们的用户可以将这些文章翻译成西班牙语，以此来练习他们的英语能力。接着，我们将多种版本的翻译品质进行整合，并进行多步骤的整理。最终，我们会将一个翻译版本发送给CNN的西班牙语网站，并获得相应的报酬。

So we signed a contract with CNN, we signed a contract with BuzzFeed, and this worked. And it sounds very clever. The problem is, as a monetization technique, first of all, translations of bad business to be in. Computers are getting better and better at it. And even without computers, it's just kind of a race to the bottom in terms of price. Because you can always just find somebody else to do it cheaper for you. So that was kind of one thing.
我们与CNN签订了合同，与BuzzFeed签订了合同，这起初是很聪明的做法。但是作为一种盈利技术，首先翻译业务就不是一个好的选择。因为计算机越来越擅长这项工作，即使没有计算机，价格也会一路走低，因为你可以找到更便宜的替代者。所以这是一个问题。

And then we just ended up realizing this was not an easy way to make too much money. The other thing is we started realizing, because that's where the money was coming from, we started realizing we were spending a lot of our thinking time and a lot of our development time when making sure the translations were accurate. Whereas to begin with what we wanted to do was make an education company. Right. And we wanted to spend most of our time teaching better rather than cleaning up translations. And so at some point, very early in the company, we weren't making very much, we were making, I mean, it's like thousands of dollars, not a lot of money.
然后我们意识到这不是赚很多钱的简单方式。另一个问题是，我们开始意识到，因为赚钱的来源是这个，我们开始花费大量思考时间和开发时间来确保翻译准确。起初，我们想建立一家教育公司。对。我们想要花费大部分时间教授更好的方法，而不是清理翻译。因此，在公司早期某个时候，我们没有赚太多钱，只赚了几千美元，不算很多钱。

We decided we took this hard decision. This must have been like 2013 or something. We took the hard decision to stop that. We're like, we're not going to do that, and we're not going to worry about making money. And we're just going to do venture capital for a while. Like don't worry about it. So that was one.
我们决定做出这个艰难的决定，大概是在2013年左右。我们做出了停止做那件事的艰难决定。我们想，我们不会再做那件事，也不再担心赚钱。我们只是想投资一段时间。别担心。那就是其中之一。

The other one is after the lay-la conversation, when we needed to really figure out how to make a lot of money. Now the thing is when you have a half a billion dollar valuation, you got to make a lot of money. Like when you're making zero, you can't make it so that you're only going to make a hundred thousand dollars a year. Like to justify half a billion dollar valuation, you have to making.
另一个时刻是在Lay-la谈话之后，我们需要真正弄清楚如何赚钱。现在的问题在于，当你的估值达到50亿美元时，你必须赚很多钱。当你没有收入时，你不能只赚一年十万美元。为了证明50亿美元的估值是合理的，你必须赚到足够的钱。

You can't turn it into a lifestyle business. No, no, you got to be making, you know, at least tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, to have that. Yeah. By the way, when lay-la said you have to monetize, I went back to the company, and you know, at the time we had maybe 60, 70 employees, and I said, okay, well, we had to figure out how to make money.
你无法将它变成一种生活方式的企业。不行，你至少要赚数千万、甚至数亿美元的收入才可以。是的。顺便说一句，当莱拉说你得赚钱时，我回到了公司，当时我们有60到70名员工，我说，好吧，我们得想办法赚钱。

And the first question everybody had was like, why? I was like, well, companies make money. That's how they support themselves. And they're like, well, we've been fine without that. You know, I didn't have to explain. You just cannot raise venture capital forever. Then it's like, okay, fine. We understand we have to make money. So how are we going to do it? And then I would say, well, you know, maybe we can put an ad at the end of our lessons, like, no, no, no, no, ads are evil. Don't put an ad.
每个人的第一个问题都是“为什么？”我说：“公司赚钱，这是他们支持自己的方式。”他们说：“我们没有这样做也过得很好。你知道的，你不能永远依靠创业资本。”然后他们说：“好的，我们明白我们要赚钱。那我们要怎么做呢？”然后我说：“也许我们可以在课程末尾放一个广告。”结果他们说：“不行，广告有害。不要放广告。”

Okay, how about we, you know, have a subscription? No, you can't charge people. You can't do that. And so it's like the whole company was basically against monetizing. And it took us about six months to finally convince everybody that monetization was not a bad thing. And that in reality, what it would allow is if we could make a lot of money, we could use that to invest it and to teach better. And people actually finally understood that, but it took a while.
好的，我们考虑开通订阅制？不行，你不能向用户收费，这样做是不行的。整个公司都反对盈利。花了大约六个月的时间我们才最终说服了所有人，让他们认识到盈利并不是一件坏事。事实上，它可以让我们有更多的资金用于投资和提供更好的教育。最终人们理解了这一点，只是需要一点时间。

And in that time, at some point, one of the first few things that changed was people were like, you know what, we could do ads. We could do ads. But they can't be the crappy ads that are all out there. Let's do a clever idea. And the clever idea was, and it's a great idea. We just never made it work. And I don't know if at some point I do want to go back to it. Can we show ads in the language that the people are learning? So if you're learning Spanish, could we show you some ads in Spanish? And I think that's a really good idea, because it's kind of like a win-win situation. Like the person who wants to actually hear the ad or see the ad, they practice. And then we make money off of it.
在那段时间里，某个时刻，最早改变的几件事之一是人们想到了做广告。我们可以做广告。但是它们不能像所有其他的糟糕广告那样。让我们想一个聪明点子。这个点子很棒。我们只是从来没有让它起作用过。我不知道是否有一天我想回去尝试一下这个想法。我们能否展示与人们正在学习的语言相对应的广告呢？如果你正在学习西班牙语，我们可以向你展示一些西班牙语广告吗？我认为这是一个非常好的想法，因为它是一种双赢的局面。想要听或看广告的人可以练习语言。我们也可以赚钱。

There's one big problem for that, which is that usually companies, that their budget doesn't work that way. So for example, in the US, and you're advertising two American consumers, you know, Coca-Cola, I'm sure has an ad in German, but they just do not want to show the German ad. That's just not what they want to show, because I know, no, no, no, no, in German, we have a very different narrative. That's just not what we want to do. We want to show the American ad. And I'm like, ah, can we show the German ad? And that just, we never got it to work. I thought it was a good idea. I never got it to work.
这个问题有一个很大的困难，通常是因为企业的预算不允许这样做。例如，在美国做广告面对的是美国消费者，可是可口可乐（Coca-Cola）虽然会有德国广告，却不会想要展示德国广告。因为我们知道德国广告与美国广告的叙述完全不同。他们不想展示德国广告，我们可以看看能否展示一下德国广告。但这个想法最终没有实现，虽然我认为这是一个好想法。

In the end, now we revert it to showing standard app ads that we show that are, you know, what you're supposed to get if you're in the US. You got the English ads. May I just because I'm over caffeinated, just throw something out there really quickly? Yeah. Which is, and I'm sure with your technical abilities, you could figure this out, or the advertiser could just supply the raw text, of course, for close captioning that they would use otherwise. But you could show the translated subtitles in the target language, say, of German.
最后，现在我们把它恢复为显示标准的应用程序广告，这些广告是我们在美国应该看到的，也就是英文广告。因为我喝了太多咖啡，我能不能快速地提一个想法？当然可以。我的意思是，根据你的技术能力，你可以弄清楚这个，或者广告商可以提供原始文本，供字幕使用。但是你可以在目标语言中显示翻译后的字幕，比如德语。

That is a good idea. I probably should that at some point, there's one other complication with this, which is right now, the ads we show, the programmatic ads that come from Google and Facebook. Like we show Google and Facebook ads and Google and Facebook are the ones who serve us the ads. If we wanted to do something like this, we would have to have our own ad sales force. So we would have to go and contact companies and ask them to do that. That's doable. And probably you can make more money per ad impression if you do that.
这是个好主意。可能在某个时候我应该试试，但是现在存在另一个问题：我们现在展示的广告是来自Google和Facebook的自动投放广告。我们展示Google和Facebook的广告，这两家公司也是我们的广告服务商。如果我们要采取这样的措施，我们必须要有自己的广告销售团队。因此，我们需要联系其他公司并向他们寻求合作。这样做可能更有盈利，而且单次广告投放的收入更高。

Yeah, but it's the pain in the ass of having basically an ad sales team. Yeah. And so because our monetization, particularly subscription has done so well, we haven't felt the need to do that. I mean, at some point, maybe we'll do it, but we just haven't felt the need to do that. So I want to give you credit where credit is due on, I'm sure there are many things I could give you credit for. But one is a relentless focus and ability to refocus.
是的，但基本上拥有一个广告销售团队是个大麻烦。我们的赚钱方式，尤其是订阅已经做得非常好，因此我们并没有感到有必要去这样做。也许在某些时候，我们会这么做，但我们现在并没有感到有必要去这么做。所以，我想要承认你的功劳，可能有很多事情我可以承认你的功劳，但其中一点就是你有一种不懈的专注和能力去重点关注。

And I want to mention an article for folks. It's very short that they might find interesting. It's called the top idea in your mind. It's by Paul Graham, which relates back to the point you made of realizing that you're not in the business of tidying up the last 5% of translations that you have sourced from your company. And that's just from your users. And then in fact, you're an education company, first and foremost, right? So being able to say no to a good, even a profitable activity in order to remain focused just as you would not want to necessarily build your internal sales team, right? Because it would just sort of detract from the focus and resources.
我想向大家推荐一篇文章，标题为“你脑海中有的最佳想法”，作者是保罗·格雷厄姆。这篇文章回应了你所说的意见，即你在收集公司的最后5%的翻译时并不是你的主要业务。事实上，你是一家教育公司，首要任务是保持专注，甚至放弃一些好的、甚至是盈利的机会，就像你不想建立内部销售团队一样。因为这些会分散你的资源和注意力。这篇文章非常简短，但可能会引起你的兴趣。

I want to return with a question about the months it took to convince the team, the employees to get behind monetization of some form or another. How did you do that? And how much of it was like here is the mission because presumably they care about the mission of the company, but they also care about the value of their equity and want liquidity at some point. So you could just say, OK, guys, if we keep raising venture capital, like there might be secondary sales, but at some point, both the investors and employees will want to be able to cash in on at least some of the value of their equity. That's part of the reason you came to this company rather than going to work for someone else. What was the conversation or the process of persuasion?
我想就花费几个月来说服团队和员工支持某种形式的货币化回来问一个问题。你是如何做到的？其中有多少是基于公司的使命，因为他们可能关心公司的使命，但他们也关心股权的价值，并希望在某个时候获得流动性。所以你可以说，好吧，伙计们，如果我们一直在筹集风险资本，可能会有二级市场，但在某个时候，投资者和员工都希望能够至少获得一部分股权价值的回报。这是你来到这家公司而不是去为别人工作的原因之一。这个说服过程是什么？

You know, it's interesting. The first few employees that we hired at Dooling go, by the way, it's an interesting. I think a lot of us do with the fact that we have a really good company culture, but also that we're in Pittsburgh. Our employee churn is very low. So we employees stay for a very long time at Dooling go. So the majority of people that started at Dooling go, you know, 10 years ago, they're still around. And the thing about these people was when we hide the first few employees that we hired were people from Carnegie Mellon University, because I was a professor there. And I basically I just knew who the best students were and I'm like, you want to come work for us.
你知道，很有趣。我们在Doolingo雇佣的前几名员工是来自卡内基梅隆大学的人。这可能与我们拥有非常好的企业文化以及我们位于匹兹堡市有关。我们的员工流失率非常低，所以员工在Doolingo工作很长时间。因此，大多数10年前加入Doolingo的员工仍然留在这里。这些人的特点是我们雇佣的开始几名员工都来自卡内基梅隆大学，因为我是那里的教授。我知道谁是最优秀的学生，所以我邀请他们来我们公司工作。

All these people at the time had offers for, you know, the usual suspects in your Google and Facebook and the usual suspects. And at the time, we had just raised our serious A, but we could not compete salary wise with Google or Facebook or anything like that. Now we can compete, you know, our salaries are comparable to Google or Facebook, but back then we just couldn't. So the people that took a job with Dooling go, we're taking a major pay cut sometimes like 50% pay cut like we're paying half the salary that they would have gotten on Google. They had offers at Google. They took the job and the reason they took the job was they were really, they really cared about the mission. So, you know, I like to tell Severin and I care about the mission. These first few employees were zealots. They were like, look, this is the main thing that matters to me.
那时候，所有这些人都收到那些惯常的面向谷歌和Facebook这样寻常嫌疑人的工作邀请。当时，我们刚刚完成了A轮融资，但我们的薪酬水平无法与谷歌或Facebook相竞争。现在我们可以竞争，我们的薪酬可以与谷歌或Facebook媲美，但当时我们做不到。那些选择来Dooling咕噜的人，有些甚至要减薪50%，拿到的薪水只有在谷歌的一半。他们在谷歌有工作机会，但他们选择Dooling的原因是因为他们非常关心我们的使命。因此，我想告诉Severin和我自己也很关心这个使命。这些最早的几个员工都是狂热者，他们认为这是最重要的事情。

And so these people for years have been kind of the guardians of the culture. And so it, it, Dooling was a very mission driven company and of course it has to do with Severin and I, but I think it also has to do with this first few employees who just really care and they're still around. And so when we were starting to monetize the discussion was really never about like, hey, you could make a lot of money off of, you know, your shares or whatever that. That just didn't resonate all that well. Yeah, for sure.
这些人多年来一直是文化的守护者。Dooling是一家非常有使命感的公司，当然这与Severin和我有关，但我认为它也与最初的几个员工有关，他们真的很关心并且仍然在公司里。所以当我们开始盈利的时候，讨论并不是关于如何赚很多钱或股份之类的，它并没有引起太大的共鸣。

What ended up resonating the most was, hey, look, right now we have about 60 employees. We could hire way more employees if we can make a lot of money and the majority of them can be working on improving how well we teach. And that really resonated and it became true. I mean, today most of our employees are actually working on making our product better in terms of how well we teach, how engaging it is. And it is because we make hundreds of millions dollars per year. We use that to fuel the mission. So I think there was just a shift in thinking that really worked. And we believe it. I mean, I think the company now believes that I'm glad I asked these stories matter.
最终让人们印象深刻的是，我们现在有大约60名员工。如果我们能赚很多钱，就可以雇佣更多的员工，他们中的大多数人可以致力于改善我们的教学质量。这个想法非常成功，真正变成了现实。现在，我们大部分员工实际上都在致力于提高我们的产品教学效果和吸引力。因为我们每年创造数亿美元的收入，我们利用这笔钱来推动我们的使命。因此，我认为公司的思路真的发生了改变，并且我们相信它。我很高兴我问了这些故事，它们真的很有意义。

And I don't know the answers, by the way, if you're listening, I mean, Luis has been busy to put it mildly. We don't always catch up very frequently. So this is an excuse for us to catch up as well. Let me ask you a question that I would ask if we were just having drinks over dinner. I would not ask you to make any promises. I'm not monetization to me, but the broader question, since you mentioned computers getting better at translations, this doesn't directly relate to do a lingo. I don't think, but it might in some indirect way.
顺便说一下，我并不知道答案，如果你在听的话，我的意思是，路易斯一直很忙。我们并不经常联系。所以这是我们联系的一个借口。如果我们晚饭时在喝酒，我会问你一个问题。我不会要求你做出任何承诺。对我来说，这不是赚钱问题，但关键问题是，既然你提到了计算机在翻译方面的进步，这与Do a Lingo的直接关系似乎不大，但它可能以某种间接的方式存在联系。

And for people who don't know a bit of the history, if we look back and say recapture part of what fascinated me about recapsion is like, all right, if you, if you, and I think you did, run the kind of basic arithmetic on how many human hours were going into verifying that each individual is not in fact a bot. You began to wonder, is there a way to put, put these human hours to work for some benevolent purpose or a positive purpose? And at least one fast of that ended up being helping to digitize books. Right.
对于不懂历史的人来说，如果我们回顾一下我对“反复发生”的着迷，就会发现其中一部分，如果你通过基本的算术运算来计算每个个体不是机器人所需要花费的人力时，你会开始思考，是否有一种方式可以将这些人力投入到一些有益或积极的目的中去呢？这至少有一种方式就是帮助数字化书籍。

So using in human eyes and then just kind of the law of large numbers to ultimately get a good transcription of digital books that machines were having a hard time with.
因此，使用人眼对数字书籍进行校对，然后运用大数定律，最终得到一份机器难以处理的良好转录。

What are some of the most interesting things or interesting developments that you're seeing with respect to crowdsourcing versus just raw computing power or new technological pure kind of machine driven technologies?
与仅有原始计算能力或全新的纯机器驱动技术相比，众包有哪些最有趣的事情或发展趋势？请尝试用简单易懂的语言表达其意思。

Well, you know, computers are just getting a lot better things compared to 10 years ago, 20 years ago, AI is just a lot better. For example, at this point, it used to be that captures were mainly these distorted characters. At this point, computers are almost as good if not better than humans at reading these distorted characters. So showing some distorted characters is not a good test to distinguish humans from computers anymore.
嗯，你知道，与十年甚至二十年前相比，计算机在许多方面都变得更加出色，人工智能也更加先进。例如，以前验证码主要是一些扭曲的字符，但是现在，计算机在阅读这些扭曲的字符方面几乎与人类一样擅长，甚至可能更好。因此，通过显示一些扭曲的字符来区分人类和计算机已经不再是一个好的测试方法了。

If you've seen with recapture lately, what they show you is these kind of images of like find the traffic light or find the stop sign or find what they're doing there is their crowdsourcing things for like mapping software or self driving cars where self driving cars may take a lot of pictures for things and they may see 90% I don't know the exact fraction where they may see 90% of traffic lights and realize that it's traffic light. But for some of them, they just can't quite tell. And so what recapture is doing is it's taking some of the things where the computer is not not super sure about and is getting people to kind of tell them. So that's helping to improve the technology. So that's something I really like that application. I think it's worked out pretty well. So that's helping to improve technology.
如果你最近使用过“人机验证”，你看到的是这样的图像，比如寻找交通灯或停止标志。他们这样做的原因是在为地图软件或无人驾驶车辆进行众包。无人驾驶汽车可能会拍摄很多照片，看到90%的交通信号灯，并意识到那是交通信号灯。但是对于一些情况，它们无法确定。因此，“人机验证”正在利用人类的力量来判断那些计算机不太确定的情况，来帮助提高技术。我非常喜欢这个应用程序，我认为它的使用效果非常好。这有助于提高技术。

Now in case of language translation, that's gotten pretty good. I mean, if you try it and it's kind of good enough to go and if you're going to go to Germany or something, it's kind of good enough to like if you don't know any German just kind of you know you speak to it and it speaks out something and you sort of can communicate. I know people have asked us about doing was like well, do are people still going to need to learn a language given that translation is getting better and better.
现在如果是语言翻译的话，它已经变得相当不错了。我的意思是，如果你尝试一下，它已经足够好了，如果你要去德国之类的地方，它已经足够好了，就算你不会说德语，只需要跟它交流，它就会说出一些东西，你就可以进行沟通了。我知道有人问我们的是，既然翻译变得越来越好，人们还需要学习语言吗？

And it's one of those were like, I don't think this is going to affect us at all. There are, you know, there are these use cases like if you're going to go on a business trip for two days and you really have no interest in learning a language. Yeah, sure use Google translator use whatever whatever it is you need to use. But there's a couple of things.
这是其中之一，我认为这不会对我们产生任何影响。当然，有一些情况下你只需要出差两天，真的没有兴趣学习一门语言，那么就可以使用Google翻译或其它必要的工具。但有几点需要注意。

First of all, no matter how perfect the translation is. There is this thing that happens that there's always going to be a delay. Even even if it's like super computing power, et cetera, because word order changes. So German is a good example in German usually the verb is at the end. So a German sentence, you know, the way you would say it kind of English is like I did something yesterday. I did it really fast. I did it with my friend and what I did was run.
首先，无论翻译有多完美，总会出现延迟的情况。即使使用超级计算能力等技术，因为单词的顺序会改变。德语就是一个很好的例子，德语中通常动词在句子最后。所以一个德语句子，你用英语来表达大致是这样的：昨天我做了一些事情，我做得很快，我和我的朋友一起做的，我做的是跑步。

And so you kind of have to wait until the verb comes out to start saying it in English because in English you would say I ran with my friend yesterday really fast. And so there's always this kind of like pause that makes conversations pretty awkward like you just this is just you can't really live your life that way. And the majority of language learning is either to learn English and actually, you know, say move to the US or actually learn English for for business reasons, et cetera, you actually want to learn English.
因此，你必须等待动词出现才能开始用英语来表述，因为用英语，你会说：“昨天我和我的朋友一起跑得非常快。”这就会导致对话常常出现某种暂停，使得交谈变得十分尴尬，你不能这样生活。而大部分语言学习是为了学习英语，实际上，你想要学习英语有很多原因，如移民美国或为商务等。

And then the other big chunk is hobby and you know people are still going to learn as a hobby because you know, it's the same reason why we learn, you know, all kinds of things that computers could do really well like music. So I just don't think that's going to affect us as a company terms of language learning. Yeah, I don't either. I mean, I have been incredibly impressed specifically with Google translate with respect to.
另外一个重要的部分是爱好，你知道人们会因为兴趣爱好而学习，就像我们学习计算机可以很好处理的音乐一样。因此，我认为这不会对我们公司的语言学习产生影响。是的，我也这么认为。我特别对Google翻译印象非常深刻。

In my case, East Asian languages, because I do a still communicate a fair amount in Japanese and to a lesser extent Mandarin, but.
在我的情况下，我会说东亚语言，因为我依然经常使用日语进行交流，并且在较小程度上也会使用普通话。

The translation specifically in Japanese has improved tremendously. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's incredible. You want to talk about sentence construction and word order changing. Certainly in Japanese. That is that is true because it's just for people who are interested in this kind of thing, but don't know very much about it.
翻译：日文翻译的质量有了很大提升。是的，很不错。是的，太棒了。特别是在句子结构和词序方面的改进。对于那些对此感兴趣但并不了解的人来说，这是非常实用的。

If you have say I eat the apple in English subject verb object in Japanese, generally speaking, it's going to be subject object verb. So I the apple E I to the school go that kind of thing. And it's it's improved a lot, but there is that delay. As you mentioned, and if if I look at the.
如果你用英语“我吃苹果”的主谓宾语句式翻译成日语，一般来说它会变成主语宾语动词的顺序。例如“我吃苹果, 我去学校”的句子。尽管这种翻译方法已经有很大的改善，但还是会有延迟。正如你所提到的，如果我看看……

Let's see I'm looking at duelingo.com slash courses right now. And this may not be the best representation of use on the platform, but I'm curious to know. Who the primary users are in the pie chart. If you're just going to break down kind of the top few categories and what they're learning.
我现在正在查看duelingo.com/courses，这可能不是该平台使用的最佳表示方式，但我很想知道主要用户在饼图上是谁。如果你只是要解释一下前几个类别以及他们正在学习什么的话。

And I was surprised to look at courses for English speakers. It looks like Spanish is number one. Okay, not too surprised there. Then French. Okay, interesting. Very interesting because you know French is certainly spoken by the French diaspora and other places not just in France. It's a result of colonialism. Right. Exactly. So that's what I figured colonialism. But then you have Japanese Korean German Italian Hindi Chinese.
我惊讶地发现，面向英语学习者开设的课程中，西班牙语排名第一。好吧，这并不奇怪。然后是法语。嗯，有点意思。非常有趣，因为你知道，法语不仅仅是在法国国土内使用，还有法属移民和其他地方使用。这是殖民主义的结果吧。对的，确切地说，我认为是殖民主义造成的。但接下来就有了日语、韩语、德语、意大利语、印地语和中文，这令人感到惊讶。

So Hindi Chinese. I think specifically Chinese I would have expected to be a little larger. And I'm astonished that Japanese and Korean, especially Korean because I could even chalk up Japanese to like nerdy tech folks who are Japan a files and love Japan. And so on I could I could chalk up some of that to that which may not have any accuracy to at all. It's 100% accurate. Okay, all right. Great. And then Korean though. I was like, why Korean? Why is Korean number four K pop K pop.
我认为中文要比印地语来得更普遍一些，有点出乎我的意料。而且我很吃惊的是日语和韩语，特别是韩语，因为我可以把日语归为喜欢日本的技术极客，追捧日本文化的“日本通”，但对于韩语我却很迷惑，为什么它排在第四位，难道只是因为韩国流行音乐的原因吗？

Okay, K pop is humongous. I mean K pop and also Korean TV shows, you know Netflix. There's just been Korean entertainment is is really gaining a lot. Right. See a squid game. That movie. Yeah, Squid games all the one that won the Oscar with a basement. I know the one you're talking about parasite parasite. So stuff like that Korean influence just keeps growing and growing. And so it is interesting more people and do a link or learning Japanese or Korean than Chinese Chinese is an interesting one Chinese is.
好的，K-Pop非常大。我是说K-Pop以及韩国电视节目，比如Netflix。韩国娱乐正在非常蓬勃发展。对啊，你看过《鱿鱼游戏》吧。那部电影就是《寄生虫》吗？就像这样的作品，韩国的影响力一直在不断增长。所以现在更多的人开始学习日语或韩语，而非中文。中国文化也很有趣。

There's the size of the language in terms of native speakers Chinese is very large. And in this case we're talking about mandarin. Right. Mandarin Chinese. Yeah. You know, it's the largest language in terms of native speakers. And then there's a different number which is the number of people who want to learn it. We have a pretty good idea of the people who want to learn it because when we offered on the link we can see the people you know how many people actually learn it.
中文在以母语为基础的语言中，其规模非常大。在这里我们指的是普通话。普通话是全球母语使用者数量最多的语言。此外，还有想学习中文的人的数量。我们能通过链接统计到有多少人学习中文，因此对于想学习中文的人数有相当清晰的了解。

There's some that are flipped mean Chinese is flipped in that mandarin Chinese is flipped in that there's a lot of people who speak a natively not that many people are learning it. So, you know, I don't know exactly of the top of my head, but about 1% of our active users are learning Chinese.
有些语言是翻转的，比如普通话，在普通话中，有很多人以本地语言为母语，但学习普通话的人并不太多。我不太清楚具体数目，但大约只有我们活跃用户的1%在学习中文。

Which I would have expected to be higher and in particular part of the reason why I would have expected it to be higher is because the circles that we move in I assume they're similar to circles you move in. It's kind of educated people tech people. They always have their kids learning Chinese. This is like a thing on my kids are learning Chinese etc. Yeah, this is a thing. This is a thing you go to Palo Alto. It's like every other parent has their kids and sort of bilingual nursery school or whatever.
我本应该认为这个数字会更高，尤其是我认为数字更高的一部分原因是因为我们所处的社交圈应该和你所处的社交圈相似。那些受过教育的人和科技人士每天都会让自己的孩子学习中文。这是一种趋势，我的孩子们也在学中文，每当我去帕洛阿尔托的时候，几乎所有家长都会让他们的孩子在双语幼儿园学习。

Yeah. So you think the whole world's learning Chinese, but this is actually not the case. So anywhere in middle America, you know the school only offers Spanish like that's just to begin with right and I think there's this a number of reasons, but I think probably the biggest reason for Chinese that not as many people are learning it's just a very hard language to learn. Yeah, I think people know it and they're like it's hard.
是的。你认为全世界都在学习中文，但事实并非如此。在美国中部的任何地方，学校只提供西班牙语，这只是开始而已，我认为有很多原因，但我认为学习中文并不像其他语言那样普遍的最大原因可能是它是一门非常难学的语言。是的，我认为人们知道这一点，他们觉得它很难。

Yeah. So, you know in the US are top languages are exactly as you said Spanish, which makes sense we're very close to Mexico and Latin America and it's just a very large language. So, French, which I think is, you know, beautiful language and everything, but I think a lot of it that one is the opposite of Chinese and that the number of people learning it versus the number of people who are native speakers. It's just a lot of interest for French given the number of native speakers. And then, you know, Chinese and Korean are pretty high up and Italian and German.
嗯，你知道在美国最常用的语言正如你所说的西班牙语，这很有道理，我们与墨西哥和拉丁美洲非常接近，而且这是一种非常广泛的语言。法语也很常见，我认为它是一种美丽的语言，但相对于母语者来学习它的人数非常多，与学习汉语和韩语的人数相当。此外，意大利语和德语也很受欢迎。

Now, we have, you know, we were asking about the types of users and doing well, I think we have two big buckets of users in my head, I classify them as kind of two big buckets, one big bucket, which is about call it 50 to 60% of our users is people learning English. These are people who are usually not in the US, there are, I mean, some of them in the US, but they're usually not in the US, they're usually, you know, in non-English speaking country and they're learning English. The reason they're learning English is they actually want to learn English, then the reason is because they want to get ahead in life. So, either they want to get into a better educational institution or they just want to get a better job.
现在，我们在讨论用户类型和用户表现，我认为我们在我的头脑中有两个很大的用户群。我将它们分为两大类，一大类约占我们用户总数的50%到60%是学习英语的人。这些人通常不在美国，虽然有些人在美国，但通常不在美国，他们通常在非英语国家学习英语。他们学习英语的原因是他们想学习英语，因为他们想在生活中有所发展。因此，他们要么想进入更好的教育机构，要么只是想得到更好的工作。

The thing about English that is so magical is that anywhere you live, if you speak English just by speaking English, you can make more money. It's like direct. So, for example, if you used to be a waiter, now you can be a waiter at a hotel, makes more money. If you used to be, you know, I don't know, personal assistant, now you can be a personal assistant for somebody in a multinational corporation or something. So, it's just knowing English just gives you better opportunities in life and it's by far the most learned language in the world, certainly by far the most learned language on Duolingo. And those people are very committed.
关于英语这个神奇的地方在于，无论你居住在哪里，如果你说英语，仅仅通过说英语，你就可以赚更多的钱。就像直接一样。例如，如果你曾经是一名服务员，现在你可以在酒店当服务员，赚更多的钱。如果你以前是，你知道，助理，现在你可以成为跨国公司某人的个人助理或者其他什么。所以，只要知道英语就能给你更好的生活机会，而且它绝对是世界上学习最多的语言，尤其是在Duolingo上。而这些人非常投入。

And then the other big bucket of people are people who are English speakers already who are learning another language. So, think of this as a person in the US who's learning Spanish or French, etc. They're pretty different. You know, it's more of a hobby. Obviously, I'm generalizing here. There are some people obviously who need to move to Spain and they're going to learn Spanish for that. But for the majority, it's kind of more of a hobby that they're learning the Japanese or Spanish or whatever. The funny thing about these people is when you ask them, what would you do if Duolingo went away? The most common answer is I would spend more time on Instagram. They're not that committed. They're like, you know what? I like it. The reason I'm learning Spanish on Duolingo is because you see I used to play a lot of whatever. Class Royale or a lot of some game. And I was a complete waste of my time. Now I'm using Duolingo is pretty fun. And at the very least at the end of the day, I'm learning some Spanish. So they're an interesting group of people.
另一大群人是已经会说英语的人正在学习另一门语言。可以把他们想象成在美国学习西班牙语或法语的人等等。他们相当不同。你知道，这更像是一种爱好。当然，我在这里是笼统地概括。显然有些人需要搬到西班牙去，他们要为此学习西班牙语。但对大多数人来说，他们学习日语或西班牙语等更多是一种爱好。这些人有趣的地方在于，当你问他们，“如果Duolingo消失了，你会怎么办？”他们最常见的答案是，“我会在Instagram上花更多时间。”他们不是那么有决心。他们说：“你知道吗？我喜欢它。我学习Duolingo上的西班牙语是因为你看我以前玩了很多什么。各种各样的游戏，那都是在浪费时间。现在我在使用Duolingo，它非常有趣。至少我每天最后学到了一些西班牙语。”所以他们是一群有趣的人。

The other thing to say is in the US, 80% of our users were not learning a language before Duolingo. That's amazing. We're completely growing the market. That is not true in a country like Brazil where people are mainly learning English. These people were learning English before Duolingo. They'll continue learning English even if Duolingo were to go away. So it's kind of these are the two big groups of people I'd say.
另外一件要说的事是，在美国，有80%的用户在使用Duolingo之前并没有学习任何语言。这很惊人，我们完全在扩大市场。但是在像巴西这样的国家，人们主要在学习英语。这些人在Duolingo之前就已经在学习英语了。即使Duolingo不再存在，他们仍将继续学习英语。所以我会说，这是两个不同的大群体。

Alright. So I would love to just get a fact check if you know here. I mean, maybe the math is so easy that it's almost self evident. But I recall someone saying to me, which kind of makes sense. Although I haven't done the math on it that there are more people who speak English or are learning English in China as Chinese nationals, then all of the native speakers of English in the world combined. That's probably close close to true. Yeah, I would imagine that that might be something like India as well. I mean, although you do have the British history. Yeah, it's probably close. You know, native speakers of English. Let's think about that. There's 300 million in the US. But then there's a UK to. Yeah. And you know, Australia, Canada, etc. They probably combine that another hundred millionish. Yeah. So very rough numbers here. We're talking about 400 millionish. Yeah, it seems like China's probably not quite there. Well, it could. But there's a big, big butt here. They may all claim claiming to be learning English and in reality, they may be learning English, but the learning outcomes may not be so good. Yeah. So it's like, yes, they're learning English, but you know, the maybe they know how to say hello and good morning and you know, where's the bathroom, but that's about it. So, you know, I just it's not clear that they're, you know, really good English. I do not believe that in China. There are 400 million really, really fluent native speakers. I don't believe that to be true. Yeah, I don't believe that either. And anyone who travels widely in China, I think would probably come to that conclusion. It was just not the case. Yeah.
好的。所以，如果你知道的话，我很想获得一个事实检查。我的意思是，也许这个数学问题是如此简单以至于几乎不言自明。但我记得有人告诉我，这种说法有点有道理。虽然我还没有计算过这个问题，但在中国，说或学英语的中国国民要比全球所有以英语为母语的人口加起来还要多。这可能是非常接近现实的。是的，我想印度也可能是这样。虽然你们有英国的历史。是的，这可能接近真相。我们来想想说英语的人。美国有3亿人。但英国也有。是的，还有澳大利亚，加拿大等等。可能有1亿左右的人口。嗯，大致的数字是这样的。我们正在谈论4亿左右的人口。嗯，中国似乎还没有到那个水平。但这里有一个重大的问题。他们可能都声称正在学习英语，但实际上，他们的学习成果可能并不好。是的，他们正在学习英语，但也许只会说“你好”、“早上好”和“洗手间在哪里”，但也就仅此而已。因此，我认为这并不能证明他们的英语非常好。我不相信在中国有4亿个非常流利的英语母语人士。我不相信这是真的。是的，我也不相信。任何经常在中国旅行的人，我想都会得出这个结论：事实并非如此。

So let's as I promised earlier, come back because I'd love to talk about some of your lessons learned key decisions in growing company of this size for the first time. And there are many ways we can tackle this. We'll talk about the personal. So you're just in terms of personal management, work life balance, if that exists lessons learned.
就像我之前承诺的那样，让我们回来，因为我很想谈谈你们在初次发展这样一个规模的公司中所得到的一些经验教训和关键决策。我们可以从许多方面着手。我们将谈论个人方面的经验教训，例如个人管理、工作和生活的平衡以及你们所学到的教训。

But let's let's also come back to the org chart and Leila, could you describe how that was done, what it ended up looking like. What were the implications and just just kind of walk us through that. And I remember in our first conversation, I told the story of, and maybe not the best example.
但我们也可以回到组织结构图和莱拉的话题，您能描述一下它是如何完成的，最终呈现出什么样子吗？它有什么后果，能否请您详细地介绍一下。我记得在我们第一次交谈时，我讲了一个故事，可能不是最好的例子。

This since it is ultimately has been superseded by Netflix and superior technology, but blockbuster back in the day when blockbuster as a company was about to become a blockbuster brought in, believe someone from McDonald's and exec to specifically help them with org chart design. I have never designed an org chart. So could you just describe what happened and where you landed with it.
这个故事可以追溯到当时的Blockbuster公司即将成为大热门时代，但由于Netflix和更先进的技术崭露头角，最终Blockbuster已经被淘汰了。那时，Blockbuster公司聘用了一位来自麦当劳的高管专门帮助他们设计组织结构图。我从未设计过组织结构图。所以你能描述一下发生了什么，以及他们最终得出了什么结论吗？

Yeah, I mean, we've gone through a bunch of different org charts. I mean, when we were from zero to call it 30 employees org chart was was very flat as in I was managing everybody. That was that and I actually think, you know, maybe I took it a little too far, but I actually think in the first for the first zero to N where N is around maybe 20 to 30 people. The best thing you can do as a CEO is be a micromanager.
是啊，我的意思是，我们尝试了很多不同的组织结构。当我们从零开始到拥有30名员工的时候，组织结构非常扁平化，也就是我管理所有人。这就是现在的情况。其实，我认为也许我有些过分了，但我认为在公司刚刚起步，从零到拥有大约20至30个人的时候，作为CEO最好的做法是成为微观管理者。这是我的意见。

I actually believe that when you are such a small company, usually you don't quite yet have product market fit. You haven't really figured everything out. You have one goal, get the product market fit. And I don't think you should be in the business of, you know, kind of like coaching people for this or that. No, just I think you just micromanaged people to like get to product market fit. I actually believe that. At some point, it really shifts even if you love micromanaging, which I love micromanaging, but I've learned not to do that anymore.
我认为当公司规模很小的时候，通常还没有找到产品市场适配度。你还没有真正弄清楚所有东西。你有一个目标，那就是找到产品市场适配度。我不认为你应该从事指导人们这方面的业务。我认为你应该对人们进行微观管理，以实现产品市场适配度。我真的相信这一点。在某个时候，即使你喜欢微观管理，情况也会发生变化，我也喜欢微观管理，但我已经学会不再这样做了。

Even if you love it at some point, this is just becomes just can't do it as well. And it is in your best interest to start actually developing people. And you know, that shift should happen maybe at around 20. I don't know the exact number. That is when you should really start having kind of a couple of managers, I think splitting things up into teams.
即使你在某个时间点爱做某件事，但它可能不再是你所擅长的了。所以从你自己的最大利益出发，你最好开始真正培养人才。而且你知道，这个转变应该在大约20岁左右发生。我不知道具体的数字。这时你应该真正开始有一些经理人，我认为可以将事情分成几个团队。

What we did then is not like we had a pretty good idea of exactly what our org judge should look like, but what we did was we hired our first manager. That wasn't me. It's a woman that this was made, I don't know, seven years ago, something like that. It's a woman that's still with us. She's now the head of all of engineering. She used to be a director of engineering at Google. And I knew her because after selling recap, I spent some time at Google. I knew her. I really liked her. Her name is Natalie glance. She's amazing.
当时我们做的并不是像我们完全知道我们的组织法官应该长成什么样，而是雇了我们的第一位经理。这个经理不是我。她是一个女人，大概七年前左右开始在公司工作。她现在是所有工程的负责人。她曾经在谷歌担任工程主管。我认识她，因为在卖掉Recap之后，我在谷歌待了一段时间。我很喜欢她。她的名字叫Natalie Glance，她非常出色。

And she, you know, she took a much smaller job at Dooling, but she was managing, you know, I don't know. It's a larger job that she had and she took a smaller job at Dooling, I think she really believed in us and she helped us. Well, from her eyes where I learned how to manage people really much better. She actually knew how to manage people. And she really helped us, you know, kind of start having a structure of well, we have some managers. And that was. That really made a big difference starting to have teams.
她呀，你懂的，她在杜灵公司找了一份小得多的工作，但她管理着一个更大的职位。我不知道。这是她曾经拥有的更大的工作，但她选择了在杜灵公司找一份较小的工作，我认为她真的相信我们，她帮助了我们。从她的眼中，我学会了如何更好地管理人。她实际上知道如何管理人，并真正帮助我们开始建立一个组织结构，例如我们有一些经理人。这真的让我们开始组建团队，这真的有很大的作用。

And the thing that we did after that is we discovered this idea of metrics based teams, which to this day we use and I think has been a really, really good thing. I think this is not the common thing, although some companies do do it. It's not the common thing.
之后我们做的事情是发现了度量为基础的团队这个想法，直到今天我们都在使用，我认为它是一个非常好的东西。我认为这并不是一件常见的事情，虽然有些公司确实在做这件事，但这不是普遍的情况。

So at Dooling, you know, the standard thing that you would have in a company, for example, at Dooling, we have the app has a bunch of different features. One of the features could be like we have a leaderboard, for example, a leaderboard, that's a feature. In many companies, common thing to do is that you have a leaderboard team, a team that owns that big feature. So just kind of you split it up by feature. These are feature based teams.
在Dooling，通常情况下，就像任何一家公司一样，我们的应用程序有许多不同的功能模块。其中一个功能模块，比如说我们有一个排行榜，这就是一个功能模块。在很多公司，通常做法是为每个大的功能模块组建一个团队来管理，这就是基于功能模块的团队。所以，你可以按照功能模块来划分团队。

We do not do feature based teams. We do metrics based teams. So we don't have a team that owns the leaderboard. Instead, we have a bunch of teams that own each a single metric. So for example, a metric that we have is time spent learning. What they're what they own is the number of minutes per day that the average user uses Dooling before. And it turns out that changes to the leaderboard increase or can increase or decrease time spent learning if you do the kind of the right or the wrong thing. So that team messes with the leaderboard a lot, but they don't own it. The only thing they do is they have this one metric and every quarter it has to increase. And so they just work on increasing this one metric and they run hundreds of AB tests to increase this metric.
我们的团队并不是基于功能分工的，而是基于指标征量的。因此我们没有一个专门负责排行榜的团队，而是一群团队各自负责一个指标。举个例子，我们的一个指标是学习时间。他们所负责的是每天平均用户使用Dooling几分钟。事实证明，如果您做了合适或不合适的事情，对排行榜的更改会增加或减少学习时间。因此，那个团队经常在调整排行榜，但他们并不拥有排行榜。他们所做的唯一事情就是拥有这一个指标，每个季度它都必须增加。因此，他们致力于提高这一个指标，并进行了数百次的AB测试以提高这个指标。

So we discovered that soon after Natalie showed up, we discovered these metric based teams. And we started, you know, at first, our first metric based team was a retention team, which is look all you have to do is make sure that users come back every day. And that team has done all kinds of things really optimized the streak on Doolingo.
因此，我们发现，Natalie出现后不久，我们发现了这些基于指标的团队。起初，我们的第一个基于指标的团队是留存团队，而留存团队的任务就是确保用户每天回来。该团队已经为Doolingo的连胜进行了各种优化。

So this notion of a streak that people have. Yeah, if people have used it, what every day for seven years, I was looking at the streaks. The streak is crazy. We have well, the numbers are a little larger, but now that we're a public company, we can't reveal numbers as the latest number we've revealed is that we have one and a half million daily active users that have a streak longer than a year. Meaning they have not missed a single day in the last year or longer.
这种人们追求的连续做某件事的概念。如果人们每天都坚持做了七年，我看着这些连续记录感到非常惊奇。这些记录非常疯狂。我们的数字有点大，但现在我们是一家公开的公司，不能透露具体数字。我们最新透露的数字是，我们有一百五十万每天活跃用户已经连续坚持做某件事一年或更长时间，意味着他们在过去的一年或更长时间没有错过任何一天。

So that's a very powerful mechanic. The retention team has worked on that. So basically what we did is we discovered these metric based teams and what we do now at Dooling was when we care about a metric that we want to optimize. So a metric could be daily revenue. Or you know, whatever it is, we form a team
这是一个非常强大的机制，保留团队一直在研究它。基本上，我们发现了这些基于指标的团队，我们在Dooling做的就是当我们关注一个我们想要优化的指标时，比如日收入，或者其他什么，我们会组建一个团队。

around that metric and that has worked up pretty well. That's kind of one big shift with us that happened. And then the other big shift that happiness. So that worked out pretty well.
在那个指标方面，我们取得了不错的成果。这是我们发生的一个很大的变化。另一个重大的转变是幸福感。所以情况相当不错。

At some point we had like 50 teams. I don't know, maybe a little less than we like 40 teams. And that was started to become, you know, we use the term goat rodeo. It started to become this craziness. And so what we did is we decided to pull the teams together that were similar to each other into this thing called areas.
在某个时候，我们有大约50个团队。我不知道，也许少一些，大约有40个团队。这开始变得有点疯狂，我们用“山羊圈套”这个词来形容。因此，我们决定把彼此相似的团队组合在一起形成一个名为“区域”的东西。

And now for example, we have a monetization area inside the monetization area. We have a team that owns ad revenue per day. We have a team that owns subscription revenue per day. We have a team. So that. And then we have another area called the growth area where it's just growing our active users. We have a team that owns time spent learning. We have a team that owns retention. We have another team that owns new user retention, et cetera. And so we split up into areas. And that's how we're split up now.
现在，例如，我们有一个内部的赚钱区域。我们有一个团队负责每天的广告收入。我们有一个团队负责每天的订阅收入。我们有一个团队。因此，我们又有了另一个称为成长区域的区域，这是在增加我们的活跃用户。我们有一个团队负责学习时间的消耗。我们有一个团队负责保留用户。我们还有另一个团队负责留住新用户等。我们将团队分为不同的区域。这就是我们现在的分工。

And what has what has been really good is. And the shift for me has been, you know, it went from micromanager to kind of learning how to manage to now. What I do is I, you know, I'm a manager of managers. Well, I'm a manager of managers of managers, managers, managers. But at some point that kind of doesn't matter that much. Because you're just a manager of managers is kind of what matters. And I've learned how to start managing managers much better. I've gotten good at it.
一直以来，真正令我感到不错的是，经历了从微型管理到学会管理再到现在的转变。现在我是一位管理经理。实际上，我不仅仅是一位管理经理，而是一位管理多位管理经理的经理。但是到了某种程度上，这并不是那么重要。因为最重要的是成为管理管理者的管理者。我已经学会了如何更好地管理管理者，我做的越来越好了。

All right. Last time we spoke, I have a number of follow ups here. Let me ask the easy one. Might not be the easy one to answer, but the easy.
好的，上次我们谈话之后，我有一些后续问题。先问一个简单的问题。可能不是容易回答的问题中的简单问题。

Simple question first, which is. Why a daily metric as opposed to a different time interval, like a weekly. For instance, in terms of revenue or something else, there's two reasons for daily stuff. One is we really big believers that.
首先，简单的问题是：为什么选择每日计量，而不是像每周这样的不同时间间隔。例如，在收入或其他方面，有两个每天计算的原因。其中一个原因是我们非常相信。

You should be using dualing everyday. And I just basically, you don't have to use the link every day to learn a language, but we really want to build a habit. And the best habits are daily, I think. Because it's kind of hard to have these habits that are like, well, every three days I do something like this. It's just kind of hard. It's much much better to have a habit like brush my teeth just to it every day.
你应该每天都使用双语学习。基本上，你不必每天使用链接来学习语言，但我们真的想培养一个习惯。我认为最好的习惯是每天都要做，因为有些习惯是每三天做一次这样的，这有点困难。每天刷牙这样的习惯是更好的。

So we try to build habits every day. And so for us. This is one of the reasons why we look daily the other reason why we look daily is that. We run a lot of AB tests and looking at the daily timeframe allows us to move faster. So because we just don't have to imagine that our time frame was a month. We said, look, how many people do X in a month.
所以我们每天努力养成习惯。对于我们来说，这是我们每天查看的原因之一。另一个原因是我们进行了许多AB测试，日常观察时间框架让我们能够更快地执行。因为我们不必想象我们的时间框架是一个月，我们可以看看在一个月内有多少人做X。

We have to wait a whole month to figure out what that number is. Right. Is that because you're just controlling for confounding factors if you're running. If you're changing multiple variables at the same time, it just becomes too difficult to attribute causations. So the lag time just becomes long. That's exactly right.
我们必须等一个整月才能确定那个数字是多少。对的，这是因为你正在运行控制混杂因素的程序。如果你同时改变多个变量，就很难将原因归因于某一个变量。因此，滞后时间就变得很长。这就是正确的。

So whereas if you look at daily stuff, it's much faster. So for example, for revenue, we really, we look at daily, well, daily bookings to be precise is basically the amount of money that comes into dualingo. We look at that a lot and we optimize that and it really is nice because you can see, for example, if we make a change, you can see tomorrow. What happened in the change day, you can already see, yes, daily bookings increased by 10%. You can see it in one day. So those are the two reasons why we look at the daily.
所以，如果你关注日常业务，将会更快。例如，对于收入，我们真的会查看每天的预订情况，确切地说是指Dulingo收到的金额。我们经常关注这一点并加以优化，这非常好，因为你可以看到，比如我们做了一个改变，第二天你就可以看到改变后的情况，你已经可以看到，每日预订增加了10%。这些是我们关注日常业务的两个原因。

I mean, we've talked about starting to do hourly. We haven't quite done that. I know one of the difficulties with our leads. There's a pretty big differences in terms of times. For example, 9 p.m. Around 9 p.m. is the most popular time to learn a language. But there are times, for example, 4 a.m. There's just not very many users. So looking at hourly makes it a little harder. But we do daily.
我是说，我们已经讨论过开始按小时计费，但我们并没有完全这样做。我知道我们的潜在客户存在时间上的差异，这是一个主要困难。例如，晚上9点左右是学习语言的最受欢迎的时间。但是，比如凌晨4点，却没有很多用户。因此，考虑按小时计费可能会更加困难。但是我们每天都提供服务。

So before we move on, I'd love to just clarify one thing that you said and that is related to the micromanaging and whether that point is at 10 people 20 30, but it was related to being pre product market fit. Would it be safe to say that if you have product market fit, let's just say you've created a business model in a business that is generating revenue that is found its match that it would potentially make sense to develop people sooner than the 10 people 20 people or whatever the head count might be. I think that makes sense. It just hopefully you're not in a period where you're doing this kind of zero zero to 20 employees for for eight years or something. Hopefully that period only lasts one or two years. Yeah. And in that time, you probably just need to be trying to figure out product market fit. If you're going to be in that for several years, I do think it starts making sense developing people.
在我们继续之前，我想澄清一下你说的一件事情，与微观管理有关，以及这个问题是否在关注10个、20个、30个人的管理点，但这与产品市场匹配前有关。可以这样说，如果你已经实现了产品市场匹配，假设你已经创建了一个能够产生收入的商业模式，那么提前培养人才，在10个、20个或者其他员工数量上可能是有意义的。我认为这是有道理的。但是，希望你不要在零员工到20个员工这样的过程中花费8年时间之类的时间。希望这个阶段只持续一两年。在这段时间里，你可能只需要试图找到产品市场匹配的方法。如果你要在这个领域呆几年，那么我认为开始培养人才是有意义的。

All right. So to let's say just hop back to our first conversation, there were two books that you mentioned as being particularly helpful or that you would recommend maybe both one was zero to one by Peter teal. And the other was the hard thing about hard things if I'm getting the title right I can never remember this title by Ben Horowitz. Yes. And I'm wondering if now flashing forward from 2016 to present you've gone from 60 to 600 or so people. A lot has changed. You've gone from private to public. Are there any other books or resources or thinkers who you have found particularly helpful or helpful at all in the last handful of years. One book that I really liked. And we make all managers read it at the Lingo is it's an oldie. It's an oldie but but a really good one is high output management by Andy Grove.
好的。回到我们第一次谈话，你提到了两本书，说它们特别有帮助或者你推荐，其中一个是彼得·蒂尔的《从零到一》，另一个是本·霍洛威茨的《困难的事的艰难之处》（如果我没有记错标题的话）。现在，从2016年到现在，你的公司从60人发展到了约600人，发生了很多变化，你从私人公司变成了公共公司。在过去的几年里，你是否发现了其他有帮助或有用的书籍、资源或思想家？我非常喜欢的一本书是《高产出管理》（High Output Management），作者是安迪·格鲁夫（Andy Grove）。虽然这是一本老书，但真的很好。我们让所有的经理都读这本书。

It's just it's just like a how to manual like he doesn't bother with like you know his life story or whatever. I mean it's just a little bit of that but it's really it really is just very practical. It's like look, I have found that when you're doing performance reviews, you can talk to the people before doing before giving them the review or after you should always just do it after like it's just stuff like that. It's just these little things that are just like just I have found that this is better than that. There's just a lot of you know here another one that I it's just kind of off the top of my head is like when somebody tells you that they want to quit. Drop everything you're doing. And if you don't want them to quit if you want them to quit, yeah, let them quit. But otherwise drop everything you're doing and make this your highest priority because one of the main reasons people quit is because they don't think that you think they're important. That's just very, very valuable advice like that that is just super applicable immediately to everything you're doing. So I really think I know that will cut me a lot to become a better manager.
这就像一本“如何”手册，他没有讲自己的人生故事什么的。只不过稍稍提及一下，实际上是非常实用的。比如说，我发现当你要做绩效评估时，你可以在做评估前或者后与员工谈话，但最好是在评估后再谈，就像这样，这种小事情让人受益匪浅。我发现这个方法比那个方法更好。还有一个例子，当有人告诉你他们想要离职时，立刻放下手头的事情，如果你不想让他们离职，如果你想让他们离职，那就让他们离职，否则，最高优先级就是让他们留下来，因为人们离职的主要原因是他们认为你不认为他们是重要的。这些非常珍贵的建议，对于你所做的一切都非常适用，这对我成为一个更好的经理非常有帮助。

So we are going to discuss number of facets of dualingo and new developments and so on before we get to that. I asked a number of questions last time that I think you may have new answers to so I'm going to just ask those think there are four at least in front of me and then we'll we'll zig and zag back into doing a related things. So the first is what is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you've ever made that could be an investment of money, time, energy. Pick your currency. Well, I mean, you know, the easy answer for that is is dualing although I mean, I've been at this for so long that it was not an easy investment. Yeah, I mean, obviously it has has been very good. You know, I'll give a counter intuitive one that has really helped me. I'll say it's a weird one.
在我们进入主题之前，我们将讨论Duolingo的方方面面和新发展等问题。上次我提出了一些问题，我认为你可能有新的答案，所以我只是问一下这些问题。至少我面前有四个问题，然后我们将会再次回到相关主题。首先是，你曾经做过的最好或最值得的投资是什么，这可能是金钱、时间或精力的投资，你可以选择你的货币。好吧，我的意思是，你知道的，容易的答案是Duolingo，虽然我一直在做这个，但这不是一个容易的投资。不过，显然它一直非常好。你知道，我会给出一个相反的例子，它真的帮助了我。我会说这是一个奇怪的例子。

I have an aging mother and I think a lot of people my age have aging parents. I used to worry a lot about her because she used to live in Guatemala and you know, Guatemala is a dangerous place and I'm like, she she's pretty old. I mean, she had me at an old age. She had she had me age 42. So she's she's 85 and she used to drive still in Guatemala and it was like this whole thing. A lot of my mental energy was I said that's not 80% of my mental energy, but it was a significant fraction of my mental energy was just worrying that she was okay. And the investment that I did is she moved in with me. And it's a weird thing. I mean, my house is large enough that this is fine. We get along well and everything. But I feel so much better about it.
我有一个年迈的母亲，我认为和我这个年龄一样的很多人都有年迈的父母。我曾经非常担心她，因为她以前住在危险的危地马拉，而且她年纪也很大，她在42岁的时候才生了我，现在她已经85岁了，以前还在危地马拉开车，这让我非常担心。我花了很多精力去考虑她的安全问题，虽然这只占了我精力的一小部分，但确实是很重要的一部分。为了让她更安全，我让她搬到了我的家里和我一起住，虽然我的房子足够大，但是这还是很奇怪的事情。不过我们相处得很好，我现在感觉好多了。

I mean, I'm just like, now I'm not worried about her. She's she's there. She's kind of she's she's thriving and she's actually keeps to herself. It's not like she bothers me all that much, but I just I'm just not worried about it. Yeah. And that this has made me why I freed up. I don't know. Call it 4% of my mental energy that I was spending on that. I it's freed up and I just have more time to worry about other things.
我的意思是，现在我不再担心她。她在那里，生活良好，她其实保持着独立。并不是她经常打扰我，但我只是不再担心她。是的，这让我有更多的时间去关注其他事情。我解脱了一些精力，大概是占我脑力的4%吧。

All right. The next question is in the last five years what new belief behavior habit has most improved your life. And at the time first conversation we had on the podcast. It was starting Duolingo in Pittsburgh. So kind of a slight oblique answer to the question. But I'm wondering if you have a different answer to that or an additional answer to that now.
好的，下一个问题是在过去的五年里，哪一种新的信仰、行为或习惯最改善了你的生活。在我们第一次的播客对话中，你提到了在匹兹堡开始使用Duolingo。这是对问题的一个间接回答。但我想知道你现在是否有不同的答案或者增加的答案。

I think a personal one if we go on the personal one kind of a habit that has really changed my life in the last few years is strength training. I used to always kind of just do cardio to work out and that was the main thing. But one thing that happened is I was. I don't know the year maybe 2017 in January.
我认为如果我们谈论个人习惯，最近几年使我生活发生重大变化的就是健身训练。以前我只是做一些有氧运动来锻炼身体，那是我的主要运动方式。但有一件事发生了，我记不得具体是什么时候，可能是2017年的1月份。

First of all, I don't love the winter in the northeastern United States. I am from Guatemala. I'm not used to this. This makes no sense. How could you have a place where people just die outside if they don't do anything. It's kind of ridiculous. But anyways, I don't love the winter. It was January. I was not having a kind of a great January. I also got sick. I had some sort of like a flu and it was like.
首先，我不喜欢美国东北部的冬天。我来自危地马拉，不习惯这种天气。这没有道理。怎么可能有一个地方，在那里如果人们什么都不做，他们就会在外面死亡。这有点荒谬。但无论如何，我不喜欢冬天。那是一月份。我的一月份过得不太愉快。我也生病了，得了一种像流感一样的病。

I was not doing super well and I went to the office finally after all this and I guess I'd looked I didn't look so good. I guess and. Somebody that worked at the office who's worked with us for a very long time. Dennis looked at me and he's like. At least you need Gary. I'm like, I know what you're talking about. He's like. What are you doing tomorrow at 6 30 a.m.? I'm like nothing. Gary will show up. Anyways, turns out Gary shows up.
我状态不太好，最终我决定去了办公室，我想我看起来也不太好。其中一个跟我们工作很长时间的人Dennis看着我说：“你至少需要Gary。”我回答说：“我知道你在说什么。”他接着问我：“明天早上六点半你有什么安排吗？”我回答：“没有。”接下来，Gary出现了。

Gary is. He was his personal trainer. Dennis's personal trainer. Gary is kind of a. He's quite a personality. He used to be the strength trainer for the Pittsburgh Steelers and then the strength trainer for University of Pittsburgh basketball team. And now he just has this roster of clients of like all these rich people from Pittsburgh who are not athletes. Certainly I was not an athlete and Gary shows up and he's like, all right. I'm going to you know I'm going to make you stronger and he gives you some weights and and then he laughs at how weak you are. He'd like laughs.
加里是丹尼斯的私人教练，他是个有点奇特的人物。他曾是匹兹堡钢人队的力量教练，接着成为匹兹堡大学篮球队的力量教练。现在，他的客户名单里有很多匹兹堡的富人，他们不是运动员。我肯定不是一名运动员，但加里赶到后说:“好吧，我会让你变得更强壮”，然后给你一些举重器材，同时嘲笑你的力量不够。他就是会嘲笑。

I'm like, what are you supposed to make me feel good? He's like, oh my god. You can't even do like whatever 40 pound dumbbells for bench press. What are you doing? Yeah. And so he laughs at you and I've been with him since like 2017. It has really changed my life. I used to have all kinds of aches and pains no longer.
我像是说，“你要让我感觉好吗？” 他回答：“哦我的天！你甚至不能做40磅啊杠铃卧推。你在干嘛？”然后他嘲笑你，我从2017年开始跟着他，这真的改变了我的生活。我过去总是身体疼痛，但现在不再这样了。

It turns out, you know, if you start, I you know, you know a lot more about this than me, but I think if you start working out doing strength training after age, call it 35 or so it's pretty hard to build big muscle. So it's not like I've built humongous muscle, but but I just I'm just a lot healthier and certainly a lot stronger. And so this has really changed my life. So Gary, Gary saw some big fan. Wow. I guess Dennis Dennis deserves some significant thanks to Dennis is also awesome just taking the initiative. No, he really he just looked at me and I you I must have looked like hell. He just looked at me like you need Gary. And I said not going to allow right. Yeah.
事实证明，你知道的，如果你开始，我知道你关于这个比我知道得多，但我认为如果你在35岁左右开始进行力量训练，那么很难增长大块肌肉。所以我不是我已经长出了巨大的肌肉，但我很健康，肯定更强壮了。所以这真的改变了我的生活。所以Gary是个大粉丝。哇。我想Dennis应该得到一些重要的感谢，因为Dennis也很棒，他采取了主动措施。不，他真的看着我，我应该看起来很糟糕。他只是看着我说你需要Gary。我说没有问题。

Oh, how many times per week do you do resistance training now? Three times a week. Three times a week. All right. We'll give this a shot. We'll see if this question goes anywhere and then we're going to kind of zoom back to do a link and related topics.
噢，你现在每周做多少次抗阻训练？三次一周。三次一周。好的，我们试试这个问题，看看它是否有用，然后我们会回到相关主题的链接上来。

What purchase of $100 or less has most positively impacted your life in recent memory? Easy. And of course listeners love specifics. Easy. Yeah. Easy. An electric toothbrush. I got the oral BIO. This changes your life. I mean, it just you can't go back. Yeah, you can go back and I'll tell you when I started dating my current significant other.
最近你花100美元以下的什么购物物品对你的生活影响最为积极？很简单。当然，听众们喜欢具体的例子。很简单。是的，很简单。一个电动牙刷。我买了口腔BIO品牌的，它改变了我的生活。意思是，你再也回不去了。当然，如果你想知道，当我开始和我现在的另一半约会时就开始用它了。

One of the first few things that I did was I I saw that she was kind of slomming it with like a regular toothbrush. So one of the first I just I just on Amazon ordered her my first gift to her was an electric toothbrush. And she said to this day we've been together for longer. I've given her significantly more expensive gifts to this day best gift I've ever given her. It really just changes your life. Yeah. See if you're not brushing with an electric toothbrush, you're doing it wrong.
我做的第一件事之一就是发现她用着普通的牙刷，所以我在亚马逊上给她订购了一支电动牙刷，这也是我送给她的第一个礼物。直到今天，我们在一起的时间更长了，我送给她的礼物也更加昂贵，但这仍然是我给她最好的礼物。它真的可以改变你的生活。如果你没有用电动牙刷刷牙，那你就做错了。

You know, I didn't expect this to come up in this conversation, but I'm going to I'm going to plus one that and mentioned that I recently went to a new dentist. I just very highly recommended by a separate doctor I work with apparently top of the top as far as dentists go I was nervous to go because I've not been to dentists since COVID. Now this is probably flashing back.
你知道吗，我没想到这个话题会在我们的谈话中提到，但是我要加一句并且提到我最近去了一位新的牙医。我听说这个牙医是我与之合作的另一位医生强烈推荐的，他似乎是顶级的牙医。由于新冠肺炎疫情，我一直没有去看牙医，所以我很紧张。现在这又让我回想起来。

A common thing. Yeah, common. So I was terrified that it was just going to be a complete, you know, warfield of issues, but it was mostly fine. But the point he made to me was with his recommendations is that number one, you need to use an electric toothbrush of some type because it will prevent you from applying too much pressure. And there are other benefits to it, but he's but he I apparently brush my teeth like I'm trying to take.
一个很常见的事情。是的，很常见。所以我很害怕那只是一堆问题的战场，但其实情况大多良好。但他告诉我的一点是，他建议我使用一种电动牙刷，因为它可以防止你施加过多的压力。它还有其他好处，但显然我是像要把牙齿刷掉一样刷牙的。

You know old grout off tile or something and I just destroy my gums and it's not that I'm trying to push really strongly, but I do nonetheless and I end up with bleeding gums and all of this. And since using an electric toothbrush as far as that problem goes problem solved. So is one of those where you're like just don't realize because people have told me this before but you just don't realize how much it changes life another similar one is not $100. But it is it is really life changing is that Japanese toilet.
你知道清除瓷砖上的老水泥缝吗？我只是毁了我的牙龈，我并不是故意用力，但还是这样做了，结果我牙龈出血。但自从使用电动牙刷以来，这个问题就解决了。所以有一些东西你会觉得无法意识到，因为人们以前告诉我这个问题，但你不会意识到它可以如此改变生活方式。另一个类似的例子不需要100美元，但它确实是真正改变生活的东西，就是日式马桶。

Okay, did you get the full Japanese toilet. I did. Okay, I got I got the full total Japanese toilet this again more than a hundred bucks, but life changing. Now it does cause a problem, which is I now really it's not like can't really don't like going to the bathroom anywhere but my house. It's just a significantly better experience. All right, for people who are who may be curious. I know I have a couple of friends who are obsessed with with to toilets.
好的，你有体验过完整的日本式厕所吗？我有了。好的，我花了100多美元购买了全套的日式厕所，这真的改变了我的生活。现在它带来了一个问题，就是我现在真的不太喜欢去我家以外的地方使用厕所，因为这种体验显著更好。好的，对于那些对厕所着迷的朋友们，我知道我有几个朋友是这样的。

Do you have a specific model? Can you recall which which you decided on? Yes, it's called near rest, near rest, total, neo rest and it is hold on it is a specific one, total nearest NX one. Let me tell you obviously the main feature is that it uses kind of like the bidet feature where it cleans you with water, which after you start thinking about it, it is barbaric that people in the United States and most western countries do not use water to clean themselves.
你有具体的型号吗？你还记得你选择的是哪个吗？是的，它叫做“近休息”、近休息、全息、新休息，这是一种特定的型号，全息最近的NX型号。让我告诉你，最明显的主要特点是它使用了类似坐浴盆的功能，用水来清洁你，在你开始思考之后，使用纸巾来清洁自己在美国和大多数西方国家是一种野蛮的行为。

It really is. I like that like the adjective of a fan. Just think about this. I mean, if you were to touch with your finger, some cow poop. Yeah. Would you not wash your hands with water? Like would you just use a towel to like no, you wouldn't because you would feel like it's still dirty. Think about that. Anyways, so it obviously has that bidet feature, but it has all kinds of other stuff, including like white noise so that you know, other people can't hear you like it just it has features. It is good.
这真的是真的。我喜欢它就像风扇的形容词一样。想想看吧。我的意思是，如果你用手指接触到了一些牛粪。对啊。你不会用水洗手么？你会用毛巾擦干净吗？不会的，因为你会觉得还是很脏。想想这个情况。无论如何，它显然有喷洒功能，但它还拥有各种各样的其他功能，包括白噪音，这样其他人就听不到你了，它就是好。

All right. So now let me give an alternative here because I'm guessing that the the neo this particular model is I mean, it's probably at least a few thousand dollars. Yeah, it's not cheap. I will give people an alternative if they want somewhere between the Bugatti of toilets and the barbaric practice that you heard the outline. You can get an actually I was given as a gift. A washlet, total seat.
好的，现在让我提供一个替代选择，因为我猜测这款特定型号的 Neo Toilet 至少值数千美元。是的，它不便宜。如果人们想要介于巴加蒂式马桶和你听到的野蛮做法之间的替代选择，可以考虑一个我当作礼物送给我自己的洗涤马桶坐垫。

So it effectively replaces your toilet seat on your pre existing toilet and it's a few hundred dollars. You plug it into a wall and it has a lot of the same features. So I'll just mention. It does. It is pleasant to use and you know, I never thought I would have a Japanese toilet or I expose a hybrid Japanese toilet, which I have now. But when I was in Japan, when I was 15, there's some basic features.
这种东西实际上可以取代你原来马桶上的马桶座，售价几百美元。你只需要将它插入电源插座，它就具有许多相同的功能。所以我就简单提一下，这款产品非常好用，我自己现在就有这样一种混合的日式马桶。虽然我从来没有想过自己会拥有这样一种产品，但在我15岁时去日本时，我就接触到了其一些基本功能。

I mean, when it is freezing and it gets gets cold in certain parts of Japan, warmer. Yeah, when it's freezing and you go in and you sit down and it's warm. Yes, that has a material impact on your day to day experience. But see, this is the thing about toilet and the toothbrush. I mean, the thing is these are things that you do every single day. It's like also spending money on a good mattress like it matters.
我的意思是，当日本某些地方寒冷且气温降至冰点时，进入温暖的房间会让你感到更温暖。当你冷得发抖，之后进入一个温馨的房间坐下，确实对你日常生活有实质性的影响。但要知道，关于厕所和牙刷这些小事，实际上是日复一日的体验。就像，花钱投资一张好的床垫也非常的重要。

Like these are things that I just you just do it every day. And you know, I understand some of these things are can can be pricey, but I would not skimp too much on things that you do every day. You mentioned the mattress. I will also plus one that we can get out of the domestic objects category.
像这些东西，我和你每天都会做。你知道，我明白有些东西可能会很贵，但是我并不会在每天使用的东西上省钱太多。你提到了床垫，我也同意这一点，我们可以把它归为家用物品类别之外。

But when I was I spent a little bit of time in Panama in 2005 and got to stay with this lovely couple and the the matriarch of the family is this is mother I got I wish I can remember her name she was really an incredible woman very smart and she and she said to me it's still stuck with me she said there are two things you should invest in. Make sure you invest to the extent that you can she didn't caveat that but she said make sure you invest in your bed and your shoes because if you're not in one you're going to be in the other and I was like, Ha, that's good advice.
然而，当我2005年在巴拿马时，和这对可爱的夫妇住了一段时间，这个家庭的女家长是这个家庭的母亲，我希望我能记得她的名字，她是一个非常聪明、不可思议的女人，她告诉我一句话，至今仍然在我脑海中萦绕不去，她说有两件事情你应该投资，尽可能地去为你的床和鞋投资，因为如果你不在一个里面，你就会在另一个里面，我当时想，哦，这是个好建议。

A lot of sense. That's really good. A lot of sense. Yeah. And you know mattresses can be expensive, but you don't have to go super nuts. Yeah. Just don't buy the $50 mattress like that. Probably you shouldn't do that. It makes a difference. And if your bed is I'll offer another hybrid option. I didn't realize that so many opinions on all these.
很有道理，这非常好。确实有很多道理。你知道，床垫可以很昂贵，但你不必疯狂地去买。只要不要像那样买50美元的床垫就行了。你最好不要这样做，这真的有所不同。如果你的床不够舒适，我可以提供另一种混合选项。我没有意识到会有关于这些问题那么多的不同意见。

Yes, yes, if you're if I should say you can't afford to get a new mattress and the mattress is if he pillow top really helps get a good pillow top and it will make it will make a difference makes a huge difference. And if you can't afford that get a better pillow. This is another thing. Oh, yeah. I'll put a few I'll put a few pillow options in the in the show notes because I do have opinions on pillows.
如果你不能承担买一张新床垫的费用，而你的床垫有一个枕头顶部真的很有用，可以考虑购买一个好的枕头顶部来提高舒适度，这会产生很大的差异。如果你买不起这样的枕头，可以考虑购买更好的枕头。还有另外一件事，如果你感兴趣的话，我会在节目说明中列出几种枕头选项，因为我对枕头有一些看法。

I don't test. There's some people who are like I've tested 10 male order mattresses this year. I'm like, I don't have the time for that. No, but I will test pillows. Much easier. You know, the other thing I don't know much about I was recently reading about the history of beds. And you know, this is a few hundred years ago, not that long ago. Most people didn't have a bed. Yeah, like people slept on like bunch of clothes basically like they would just kind of pile up some clothes. And that's where they slept. That's like beds were just piles of clothes. Well, how far we've come when people read a little history, you realize a lot of improvements have been made.
我不测试。有些人会说，我今年已经测试了10个男性购物床垫了。但我说，我没有时间做那些事情。不过，我会测试枕头。那要容易多了。另外，我对床的历史也不是很了解。最近我读了一些关于床的历史，发现几百年前，大多数人都没有床。他们只能靠堆积一些衣服睡觉。所以床就像是堆了一些衣服。我们有了多大的进步啊。当你多读些历史，你就会发现，我们已经做出了很多改进。

All right, let's let's go from indoor to outdoor. And I have your last answer here. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it. This is metaphorically speaking. Getting a message out, assuming people would understand it. Right. Let's just take that as assumed. What would it say and why it could be if you words paragraph could be an image could be anything your answer last time was it would be a billboard right across the street from Google.
好的，让我们从室内走到室外吧。我有你的最后一次答案在这里。假设你可以在任何地方放置一块巨大的广告牌，上面可以放任何东西。这是比喻说话。传达一个信息，假设人们能够理解它。好的，让我们假设人们能理解。那么，它会说些什么，为什么会是这样呢？如果你的回答可以用文字段落、图片或者其他形式表达。上一次你的答案是: 它将是一个广告牌，就在谷歌对面。

Google's office here in Pittsburgh that would say we do a linger hiring and yes, we can match your salary. Do you have any new possible answers to that question? Yeah, I think the word has gotten out a lot more about doing a hiring and we get a lot of inbound applicants or I think I don't think that billboard is as necessary anymore.
谷歌公司在匹兹堡设立了办事处，他们表示他们正在招聘，并且可以与你的薪资相匹配。你有没有对这个问题有新的可能性的答案？是的，我认为人们更加了解我们正在招聘了，我们收到了许多入职申请，所以我认为广告牌现在不再那么必要了。

By the way, we did have a billboard. This is not the one that we do, but we did have a billboard that was pretty successful in San Francisco that said that was for dual angle that said. Work in tech, owner house, move to Pittsburgh. Or something like that. That's clever. And it got us a good number of employees. It really actually worked with people are like, and it turns out if you move to Pittsburgh with a tech salary, which basically our salaries are the same as what you would have in, you know, Silicon Valley. You can own a pretty nice house. Work in tech, owner house. What was it? What was the last move to Pittsburgh? That's great.
顺便说一下，我们确实拥有一个广告牌。虽然不是这个，但我们曾在旧金山做了一个广告牌，非常成功，广告词大概是“拥有双重视角”，并提到，“工作在科技行业，拥有自己的房子，搬到匹兹堡”。这非常聪明，吸引了不少员工。事实证明，如果你在科技行业工作，拥有同等水平的薪水，你在匹兹堡可以拥有一所相当不错的房子。工作在科技行业，拥有房子，而最后一条广告语是搬到匹兹堡。这太好了。

You know what that reminds me of is that that's it really covers a lot and tells a whole story in very short form. I don't even remember the story in six words by Hemingway, four sale baby shoes never worn. It's kind of fixed me. Yeah, your billboard. Yeah, incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what I would do now. I mean, probably something silly.
你知道这让我想起了什么，就是这真的涵盖了很多内容，并以非常简短的形式讲述了一个完整的故事。我甚至记不得海明威写的六个字故事，“出售婴儿鞋，从未穿过”。这让我感觉很震撼。是啊，你的广告牌真是太棒了。是啊，真的太棒了。我不知道现在我会做什么，可能会做一些傻事。

I mean, I don't know if you've seen all the dual angle memes with the owl trying to kidnap your family and stuff like that. I have not. Well, they're pretty popular. They're pretty popular on TikTok, basically saying, you know, the idea is that our, our, in our notifications can be pretty passive aggressive. So for example, we have a notification on the app that if you, we send you a notification every day to remind you to practice.
我是说，我不知道你有没有看过那些双重角度的梗图，有只猫头鹰试图绑架你的家人之类的。我没有看过。嗯，它们在TikTok上非常流行。基本上意思是我们的通知可能会非常袭人。举个例子，我们在应用中有一个通知，每天都会提醒你练习。

But if you don't practice for five days, we stopped sending notifications. At some point, it occurred to us that we could have a notification that said when we stop, we actually should tell you to stop that we're stopping as in we should be nice. And tell you, hey, we're stopping. So we, the last notification we send before we stop is, hey, these notifications don't seem to be working. I'm working to stop sending them for now.
但是如果你连续五天不练习，我们就会停止发送提醒通知。在某个时间点，我们想到了一种通知方式，告诉你我们停止发送通知，应该要友善一些。我们要告诉你：“嘿，我们要停止了。”所以，在停止发送通知之前，我们会发送最后一条通知，告诉你：“嘿，这些通知似乎不起作用了，我暂时要停止发送它们了。”

And I come from the out and a lot of people consider this very passive aggressive. By the way, this notification gets people to come back a lot because they feel bad. They're like, oh, my God, I'm not giving up on my Spanish or my friends or whatever. So it gets people to come back quite a bit, but that notification has really gotten all kinds of people to talk more and more about our notifications.
我来自外面，许多人认为这种通知非常被动攻击。顺便说一下，这个通知让很多人回来了，因为他们感到内疚。他们会说，“天哪，我不能放弃我的西班牙语或朋友”，所以它确实让人们回来了很多次，但是这个通知让各种各样的人越来越多地谈论我们的通知。

And there's a whole persona that has evolved, not by us. It's like the internet has evolved that whole persona for our owl that it kidnaps your family if you're not learning Spanish. And there's a number of kind of taglines that they have that without the owl would say. So for example, one is Spanish or vanish or French or the trench Japanese or your niece. Like they just come up with a lot of these.
出现了一个完全不是我们创造的角色。就像互联网为我们的猫头鹰创造了整个人设一样，它会在你不学习西班牙语的情况下绑架你的家人。还有一些标语，如果没有猫头鹰，它们就不会出现。例如，“要么学西班牙语，要么消失”，“要么学法语，要么陷入泥沼”，“要么学日语，要么让你的侄女失望”。他们还会创造出许多类似的标语。

So I just have a fun billboard that just said Spanish or vanish. Sometimes it's the little things that get people talking. I'll just we won't get into it right now, but people should Google Derek Sivers SIVRS CD baby that was his company at the time. Email. It's a confirmation email that they would send out when orders came in as an automated email. So people can just search Derek Sivers CD baby email will put in the show notes as well.
我只是有一个有趣的广告牌，上面写着“说西班牙语或消失”。有时候小事情能够引起人们的讨论。我不想现在详细说，但人们可以通过谷歌搜索 Derek Sivers 或 CD baby（他当时的公司名字），可以找到一封确认订单的自动邮件。人们可以搜索Derek Sivers CD baby email，并且我们也会在节目注解中提供相关信息。

All right, coming back to present day. I have notes in front of me, one of which is related to mission and mission steering business decisions. When I think many people, including myself, sometimes hear mission, we're like, oh boy, here we go. This is going to be like a some type of thing on a wall and office space or some type of kind of lead with integrity type thing from a GE type of company. What does that mean? And does that really have an impact on people on a day to day basis? What do you mean when you talk about mission?
好的，回到现在。我面前有笔记，其中之一与任务和任务导向的商业决策有关。我认为许多人，包括我自己，有时听到“任务”这个词时，我们会想：哦，天哪，这将会像墙上的某种东西或办公室空间中由GE等公司领导提出的秉持正直之类的东西。这是什么意思？这对人们的日常工作有真正的影响吗？当你谈论任务时，你是指什么？

Yeah, so I feel similarly to you. I'm distrustful when people say that it is interesting that a dual angle. I think it really has to do with this first group of employees that we talked about before that are were like pretty big zealots on our mission that we really most every decision that we make a dual is is very mission oriented on our mission. And so that's the statement of the mission that sounds good, but and it's I'll say the statement, but I can explain it more.
是的，我和你感觉相似。当人们说这是一个双重角度很有趣时，我很怀疑。我认为这实际上与我们之前谈论过的那些非常热心地追随我们使命的第一批员工有关，我们在做出每个决定时都非常注重我们的使命。所以这个关于使命的声明听起来很好，但我可以解释得更详细。

So this statement is to develop the best education in the world and make it universally available. The real driving forces we want to make sure that anybody who wants to learn can do so. Now, we're not out there giving people phones or anything like that. We do assume that you have some sort of smart device. And for that assumption is that's just the world's going that way on these days you can get an Android device for 30 bucks. So it is kind of going that way we make sure that our app works on very low and Android devices, for example, but we just we really want to make sure that anybody who wants to learn a language. Well, not language is what we're expanding to teaching other things too, but anybody who wants to learn a language can do so without having to pay us.
这段话的意思是要开发全球最好的教育，并让其普及。我们的真正驱动力是确保任何想学习的人都能够做到。我们不是给人们提供手机之类的东西。我们假设你有某种智能设备。我们的假设是现在这个世界正在发展朝这个方向，你可以用$30购买到一个Android设备。因此，我们确保我们的应用程序适用于非常低端和Android设备。我们真的想确保任何想学习语言的人都可以这样做，而不必向我们付费。虽然我们正在扩展到其他教学领域。

And this matters to us. And most of the decisions we make are related to this, but one of the things that I think has really affected my thinking and certainly the company behavior is we are all really big believers that the mission we like the mission and it's great. And the big thing is that we are really big believers that that mission is actually well aligned with the long term success of our company as a business entity. So as a actual money making publicly traded company, it is aligned with a long term success. And let me kind of explain, you know, for example, we could say tomorrow, you know what, screw it, you have to pay to use tooling.
这对我们非常重要，因为我们大部分的决策都与此有关。其中一个影响了我的思考方式并且影响了公司的行为的事情是，我们都非常相信我们所追求的使命是伟大的。最重要的一点是，我们非常相信这个使命与我们作为一个商业实体的长期成功是非常相符的。作为一家真正意义上的盈利上市公司，这个使命与我们的长期成功是相符的。让我解释一下，举个例子，我们可以说明天起开始我们要收费使用工具。

My guess is we would not know my guess I'm pretty sure we would make a lot more money if we did that. Our number of users would go down, but good number of them would also pay us and we would make a lot more money and next quarter would be an amazing quarter for us like we would. It would be an amazing quarter for us. I don't know the off the top of my head, but our revenue probably would 10x some crazy number in like one quarter would just go nuts.
我猜想我们不会知道我的猜测。我非常确定如果我们这样做，我们会赚更多的钱。我们的用户数量会下降，但是许多人会给我们付费，我们将赚取更多的钱，下一个季度对我们来说将是一个惊人的季度。我不知道具体数字，但我们的收入可能会在一个季度内增长十倍，这将变得非常疯狂。

However, what that would do is it would completely stifle our growth because the way Doolingo has grown is through word of mouth. We have all these people who use us for free, they don't pay us. We make some money off them from the ads, but you know, most of our money comes from our description. But what's really useful about all these people that use us is they use us, they have a good experience and they tell their friends. And the vast majority of our users, I mean, really overwhelming majority of our users when you ask them how you know how do you find that about Doolingo.
然而，这样做会完全扼杀我们的增长，因为Doolingo增长的方式是通过口口相传。我们有很多人免费使用我们，他们不付费给我们。我们从广告中赚一些钱，但你知道，我们大部分的钱来自我们的介绍。但真正有用的是所有使用我们的人，他们使用我们，拥有良好的体验并告诉他们的朋友。而我们的用户中绝大部分，我是说真的，绝大多数的用户，当你问他们如何知道Doolingo时，他们都是通过口口相传。

It's like I have friend told me or like my significant other told me or whatever it's basically word of mouth. And I really do believe that having a really great free user experience, it's what's best for the business in the long run. Again, not next quarter, but if you take the long view, which we are at Doolingo, I mean, we've been at this for 10 years, I'm going to stick around with Doolingo probably forever.
就像我的朋友告诉我的，或者像我的重要其他人告诉我的，或者无论如何，这基本上是口口相传。我真的相信，长期来看，拥有一个非常出色的免费用户体验对于业务发展最有益。再次强调，这不是下一季度的问题，而是如果你采取长远展望，我们在Doolingo是这样做的，我意味着我们已经做了10年，我可能会永远留在Doolingo。

I mean, I really love working here, et cetera. So my view now is a long term view. I mean, I'm here thinking about the next 10 years, the next 20 years, et cetera.
我是说，我真的很喜欢在这里工作，等等。所以我的观点现在是长期的。我的意思是，我在这里思考未来10年、20年等等。

And I really think that if we do the right thing for our users in terms of like actually being able to learn a language really well and without having to pay us. That is actually what's going to optimize our revenue in the long term. So I believe that I think most everybody in the company believes that.
我真的认为，如果我们为用户做正确的事情，例如让用户真正能够很好地学习一门语言，而不必支付我们，这实际上会在长期内优化我们的收益。因此，我相信，公司中大多数人都持有这种观点。

And I think that that alignment has made it so that a lot of decisions are a lot easier because we do hire a bunch of people who are like. What the hell are you talking about mission? Like, you know, this is people who went to like whatever business school and everything's like, well, I'm just here to make money.
我认为这种对齐使得很多决策变得更容易，因为我们雇佣了很多像我们一样的人。这些人可能会问：你在说什么使命？你知道，这些人曾经上过商学院，他们觉得自己只是来赚钱的。

So we do hire some such people, but I think once they understand that we really it's not like we don't want to make money. It's not like we, you know, we really are big believers that there's real long term alignment here.
所以我们确实雇了一些这样的人，但我认为一旦他们明白了我们真的并不是不想赚钱，而且我们真的坚信这里存在真正的长期利益一致性。

I think that really that aligns everybody. What other ways does the long view impact decision making? So maybe you could give another example or two as to how that informs not just the culture, but, but how you make decisions.
我认为这确实会让每个人都达成共识。除此之外，长远的视角还有哪些影响决策的方式？或许您可以给出一个或两个例子，说明它不仅影响了公司文化，还影响了决策制定过程。

And you already mentioned one, which would be the decision to keep it free for the majority of users versus force a subscription upon everyone and then have a short term game for all of these long term sacrifices.
你已经提到了其中之一，即是在绝大多数用户免费使用与强制所有人订阅并为所有这些长期牺牲付出短期游戏之间做决定。该选项为保持对大部分用户免费，而非强制订阅所有用户，但需要做出长期牺牲。

Can you think of any other ways in which taking the longer view affects decision making? I'll tell you another one that has worked out really well for us, but it has to do.
你能想到其他哪些方式长远考虑会影响决策吗？我来告诉你另外一个例子，这个例子对我们来说非常好用，但与此有关。

You know, one of the things about taking advice from certain companies that I've learned is taking individual pieces of advice sometimes doesn't work because they only works for that company in the context of that company. Right.
你知道的，向某些公司寻求建议的事情之一就是：仅仅接受其中一条建议有时不太可行，因为这些建议只适用于那个特定的公司，在那个公司的情境下才能发挥作用。是的。

Totally. We have a very specific context, which is because again, because our culture is good because Pittsburgh is not quite Silicon Valley, et cetera. We have low employee churn.
完全正确。我们有一个非常特定的背景，因为我们的文化很好，这是因为匹兹堡不如硅谷。我们员工的流失率很低。

If you see a Silicon Valley company a lot of times, I mean, by the way, Silicon Valley is amazing. These companies operate really well. But one of the things that is common in Silicon Valley is people don't stay at jobs for very long. And companies have become optimized for that.
如果你经常看到硅谷的公司，我是指，顺便说一句，硅谷真的很棒。这些公司运营得非常好。但是，在硅谷很普遍的一件事情是人们不会在工作岗位上待很长时间。因此，公司已经为此进行了优化。

They are optimized for that. That's just that they're very good at operating excellent companies when the assumption is that people are going to stay there for two, three years. And they get really good at that at dueling.
它们是为此进行优化的。这只是说，它们非常擅长经营出色的公司，当假设人们将在那里呆上两到三年时。它们在 dueling 中变得非常擅长这种操作。

People stay for much longer than that people stay for pretty long time. And where we take the long view in doing things is in hiring. We are really picky with hiring.
人们逗留的时间比人们逗留的时间长得多。我们注重长远发展的地方在于招聘。我们在招聘方面非常挑剔。

And it's because people stick around for a long time that it really matters. So it matters that you know, if they're going to be here for eight years, it matters. It's okay to wait a couple of months to find somebody that is probably going to be 20% better for this job, but not because overall, yeah, totally.
重要的是，人们长时间停留在这里，这才真正重要。因此，如果他们打算在这里呆8年，那么你需要知道，这很重要。为了找到可能会比这份工作好20％的人，等上几个月是可以的，但不是因为整体而言更好，是这样的，完全可以等待。

However, if you are a company where you know, you have pretty high churn. Probably this is not as worthwhile. So it's just for us, this has been a pretty good thing for you know, taking the long view in hiring has been good for us.
然而，如果你是一家企业，在你看来，你的客户流失率相当高，那么这可能不值得尝试。但对于我们来说，采取长期的招聘视角对我们来说非常有益。

So I'd like to ask more about that specifically. So I am trying to get better at hiring myself. And had some maybe beginners luck where I did really well in the beginning had people stick around for a long time, but have had a couple of misses in the last few years. It's been hard.
所以我想要更详细地询问关于这个的事情。我试图让自己变得更加擅长招聘。一开始做得比较好，人们一直留下来很长时间，但在过去几年里有一些挫折。这很难。

Yeah, it does happen. And it's been it's been hard for me to really deconstruct the reasons for that in a in a postgame analysis, although I do think that there were probably.
是的，这种情况确实发生了。但是对我来说很难在赛后分析中真正揭示其原因，尽管我认为可能有些原因存在。

There was some unnecessary rushing to the hiring process. So we talked in our last conversation about hiring and you mentioned that you've learned how expensive hiring mistakes can be no doubt you've learned that.
在招聘过程中出现了一些不必要的急躁。我们在最近的谈话中谈到了招聘，你提到了你已经学会了招聘错误的代价是多么昂贵，毫无疑问你已经学到了这一点。

Yeah, more than once. So you guys are very strict in your interviews and you described the process. I'd love to see if this is changed. And if it is different for non technical roles.
是的，不止一次。所以你们在面试时非常严格，并且你描述了这个过程。我想知道这是否会有所改变。如果非技术职位的流程会不同，我也很想了解。

In 2016, it was number one resume screen, good GPA internships and so on. Number two, two phone screens, which includes problem solving. Number three, bringing remaining candidates on site where they have four different interviews, some of which involve more problem solving as well as paired programming during which they fix a bug.
2016年，招聘流程排名第一的是简历筛选，良好的平均成绩以及实习经验等。第二，需要通过两轮电话面试，包括解决问题的环节。第三，通过面试筛选后，招聘人员将剩余的候选人带到现场进行四轮不同的面试，其中包括更多的问题解决以及程序配对编程，期间候选人需要修复一个bug。

So this seems to be specific for technical candidates. I'm wondering if you have anything to add to this. If you could maybe elaborate on on what taking your time and looking for that extra 20% looks like. And I suppose I'm most interested in in non technical roles since I am not hiring for for real technical capabilities, but anything you have to say on any of those points.
这似乎是针对技术人才的特定建议。我想知道您是否有什么要补充的。如果您能详细说明一下如何花更多时间寻找额外的20%，那会更好。我特别对非技术角色感兴趣，因为我不是在寻找真正的技术能力，但您对这些问题的任何观点都很值得一说。

Yeah, that interview is pretty similar to what we do now. I think, you know, some the just the actual questions may have changed a little bit what we look for in resumes may have changed a little bit, but it is the overall is pretty similar and that is for technical technical hires.
嗯，那个面试和我们现在做的相似度很高。我认为，你知道的，实际问题可能有些改变，我们查看简历的要求可能也有些变化，但总体而言相似度还是很高的，主要是针对技术方面的招聘。

It really depends, you know, that's another thing about hiring. I mean, it really depends on what your what function you're hiring for. So for example, designers. What matters a lot is their portfolio. And the portfolio is this magical thing. Portfolios are amazing because within 30 seconds by looking at a portfolio, you can tell a lot. It's just you don't even have to do all that much interview or anything. They just look at a portfolio.
这取决于你雇用的职位种类。比如说设计师，很重要的是他们的作品集。作品集是一种神奇的东西，因为在30秒内查看作品集，你就可以了解很多信息，不需要太多的面试或其它的事情。所以这真的取决于你雇用的什么职位。

Yeah, it's good. And the other beautiful thing about portfolios, by the way, is that it's so nice because they're really good for diversity in that you don't have to know this person's name. You don't have to know what they look like. You don't have to know anything. You don't it's just the workspicks for itself. Yeah. So this is a beautiful thing about design, but it's very rare. Usually you don't most fields don't have a thing like the portfolio where you just look at it and you're like this is it.
没错，这很好。顺便说一下，投资组合的另一个美好之处在于它非常适合多样性，因为你不必知道这个人的名字，你不必知道他们长什么样，你什么都不必知道，只需要看他们的作品。这是设计的一大美妙之处，但这种情况很少见。通常大多数领域没有像投资组合这样的东西，让你一看就知道这就是最好的。

So, you know, I think outside of these you have to get really good at interviewing and you got to figure out there's a few things that really work out. One is work product. So whatever it is that they're supposed to do you have them do some of that it could be that they do it offline as in like they don't have to do it in front of you. It could be like look in order to apply you have to you have to write this thing or whatever it is you can take your time just send it to us as part of the application work product is really good.
你知道，除了这些，你还需要擅长面试，并且需要找出一些真正有效的方法。其中之一是工作成果。无论他们应该做什么，你都可以让他们做一些，这可以是离线完成的，也可以是在线完成的。例如，“为了申请这个职位，你需要写这篇文章或者完成这件事情，你可以花时间，把它作为申请工作的一部分”，这种工作成果方法非常好用。

I think that really tells you whether you and it has to be pretty close to what they're supposed to do when when you hire them. So that's that's really good. I think there's another one which is just kind of general intelligence stuff which you may or may not want to do. But there are some pretty simple kind of there's this like three question IQ test that you can Google for.
我认为这真的能告诉你，你和所雇用的人是否很接近他们应该做的事情。所以这很好。我认为还有另一个就是普遍智力的东西，你可能会或不会想做。但是有一些非常简单的三个问题的智商测试，你可以通过谷歌搜索。

Which is just you know it's not going to give you an exact precise you know with just three questions you're not going to be able to get an exact IQ. But basically you know people can solve this all three of these questions they're pretty good with cognitive abilities. You may want to do that. And then the other one is just kind of more of these behavioral interviews that you ask these questions that you really do it does make a difference for non technical stuff.
这意味着，通过仅三个问题就能得出精确的智商值是不可能的。但基本上，如果一个人能解决这三个问题，那么他的认知能力很不错。你可能会想这样做。另外一个选择就是进行更多面向行为的面试，问些并非技术性问题却对求职者的表现影响很大的问题。

I mean things like talk about a failure. Tell me about a time you failed and the types of things you're looking for say do they recognize that they have failed like the wrong answer the horrible ones is this like failure not failure. Like where they tell you like I just care too much. Yeah or like it starts looking like a failure but actually it was a home run.
我指的是像谈论一个失败的事情。告诉我一个你失败的经历，你寻找的类型是什么，他们是否意识到自己的失败，像错误的答案，可怕的事情，这是否是失败不是失败。就像他们告诉你，我只是太关心了。是的，或者就像它开始看起来像一个失败，但实际上它是一个大成功。

You're like no no no no no like a real failure. And so you want to understand that they understand when they failed. The other thing you want to hear there is. Did they blame others or themselves. It's very telling when they tell you about a failure it's a real failure but they like but you know what I knew what to do the whole time.
你就像一场彻底的失败，让人无法忍受。因此，你想要了解他们是否理解他们的失败。另外，你还想听到一件事情：他们是在责怪别人还是责怪自己。当他们告诉你一个失败的故事时，很能说明问题。如果他们说：“那是真正的失败，但是你知道吗，我整个时间都知道该怎么做。”，这是很有启示性的。

It's just my manager was dumb or whatever like that that's a very bad sign that because look everybody's failed and there's at least one instance and usually many where it really was your fault. I want to hear about that not about how you always knew all along and you always write and it's just your manager sucked or somebody else because when you do end up hiring them you know these are the type of people that would probably blame everybody else for their failures and you don't want that.
这仅仅是因为我的经理愚蠢之类的原因，这是一个非常坏的信号，因为每个人都曾失败过，至少有一个例子，通常有很多例，那真的是你的错。我想听听关于你自己失败的事情，而不是关于你一直都知道和写得很好，只是你的经理很烂或其他人的错，因为当你最终雇用他们时，你知道这些人很可能会把责任推给别人，而你不想要那样的人。

So there are these kind of behavioral interviews that I think really work out pretty well. So we do we do apply all of those but you know one of the things that I have learned a lot is and we we employ it at Dooling go. When you are the hiring manager so the person that's actually going to work with them. And usually it's because you you're hiring somebody because you'd have a need you're like well I need a designer on my team or I need whatever it is I need this on my team and I have the need.
有一种面试方式叫做行为面试，我认为效果很不错。我们会采用这种方式，但我也学到了很多东西，我们在Dooling也会使用。当你是招聘经理时，你需要与此人共事。通常情况下，你会因为团队需要而招聘某个人，比如需要一名设计师或其他职位，因为你有这个需求。

You're extremely biased towards hiring yes you're like look I just need to get this done I just want to get it so one of the things we do is ultimately a Dooling go the decisions are not by the hiring manager. I'm a manager can have a lot of input but there's somebody else that is like and a lot of times that's me who's like I understand you're in deep pain right now and you need more you know another person but this person does not pass our bar. And it's not that I'm that good at the bar it's just that I'm a different person so I made the same mistake when I'm hiring from you know an executive or something I have a bias towards hiring because I'm like man I don't I don't want to spend more time looking for you know this whatever head of whatever by the way we did this for a CFO or a chief financial officer we took a long time and at some point I was gave up I'm like man I'll just take whoever like it doesn't matter.
你在聘用方面极具偏见，你似乎只是想把事情做完，需要一个人来完成任务。我们最终会做决策，而不是单靠聘用经理。经理可以有很多意见，但还有其他人，就像往往是我，我明白你现在感到痛苦，你需要另一个人，但这个人没有达到我们的标准。并不是我对标准很严格，只是我是不同的人，所以当我从一个高管或其他人那里聘用时，我也很有偏见，因为我不想花更多时间找到某个头衔的人。顺便说一下，我们为财务总监（CFO）或财务总监做了很长时间，但在某个时候，我放弃了，我说哎呀我不管了，我只是希望找到一个人，不管他是谁。

We didn't do that I was lucky I was lucky that we ended up I mean I had spent about a year looking for our CFO yeah it's a long time. Thank God we waited I mean we are CFO mask group is amazing thank God we waited but you know in the middle thereafter of I don't know nine months or so I started faltering I started being like just take whoever. So it's not that I'm that good at holding our bar but I'm very good at holding our bar when it's not me yeah that makes sense to me that's a big big piece of advice have somebody else hold the bar.
我们没有这样做，我很幸运，很幸运我们最终找到了我们的首席财务官，我是指我花了大约一年的时间寻找。谢天谢地，我们等待了，我是说我们的CFO面具集团很棒，谢天谢地，但在接下来的九个月左右，我开始动摇了，我开始变得像是只要能找到人就行了。所以，不是我很擅长保持我们的标准，而是当不是我时，我非常擅长保持我们的标准。这对我来说是一个非常重要的建议，让别人来保持标准。

Okay so this is actually a very opportune time to segway so the two things I'm going to cover well I'm going to cover that's not true the royal I that you are going to cover I'd love to explore our number one. How did you decide to go public when did you decide it was the right time to pursue that and the CFO may. They may somehow be involved with that but the question after that is going to be what's next right new products you alluded to something beyond language learning so certainly I would love to hear more about that but let's begin with the going public question and just how you. Thought about that made decisions around it and then from there into new products new revenue streams things like that.
这是一个非常适合过渡的时机，我将要讲两件事情。首先是你们公司决定上市的过程，你们是如何决定上市的时机的，首席财务官可能与此有关。接下来的问题是，你们接下来的目标是什么，是否有新的产品或收入流？你们暗示在语言学习之外可能还有其他产品，我很想听更多关于这方面的信息。让我们从上市问题开始，讲讲你们的决策过程，然后再进入新产品和新收入流等话题。

Okay so first of all the idea of going public for example last time we talked you know I don't know exactly what was going on six years ago in my head but the idea of public going public I think around then just seems so foreign so like that's never going to happen. I wasn't just not thinking about that once we figured out a revenue and we figured out that we could make a lot of revenue the first time this really was discussed was we were having a meeting with one of our board members his name is being Gordon and his being is like a legendary guy in Silicon Valley very famous very famous says a lot of crazy stuff a lot of really good crazy stuff but also sometimes it's like just really crazy stuff.
首先，关于上市的想法，例如上次我们谈论的时候，我不确定六年前我到底是什么想法，但去上市的想法在当时似乎是那么遥远，就好像永远不会发生一样。在我们确定了收入和发现我们可以赚取大量收入后，我们第一次真正讨论上市是在我们与其中一位董事会成员，比尔·戈登的会议中。比尔·戈登是硅谷传奇人物，非常出名，经常说些疯狂但又非常有价值的话，但有时也会说一些真正的疯狂话。

And you know he was just sitting there and we're talking about a revenue and he said look you're going to make this much revenue next year you're going to make that much revenue that you're after that and then you're going to go public and we were like what. I could just completely really you can do that you could just go public that's like a thing and he's like yeah why not. And that's kind of where it clicked and that's we know we're like okay maybe and we started thinking about it and then we when we got to the point we were basically breaking even which happened you know being talked about that maybe the year after that we were already breaking where we're roughly breaking even I mean it was like it was not exactly breaking pretty close to breaking even we're like maybe we should maybe we should consider going public and the first step if you're going to go public the first step you need is you need a CFO like this is can.
当时我们正在谈论收入问题时，他就坐在那里，他说：“看，你们明年会有这么多收入，再过一年后会有那么多，然后你们就可以上市了。”我们都很惊讶，他说：“为什么不呢？”这时我们才意识到上市是一个可行的选择，于是开始考虑。当我们的利润基本持平时，我们开始认真考虑上市的问题，而这通常是在当年或者下一年。我们几乎已经持平了，就这个时候我们开始考虑上市的问题。如果你想上市，你需要首先拥有一位CFO，这是必不可少的。

Maybe you can go public without a CFO but seems like a really bad idea don't do that. Yeah, generally ill advised. Yes so step one is you need a CFO that actually knows how to take you public. A lot of people give you advice that you should hire a CFO that has taken a company public. That is hard for many reasons for one there's just not very many such people. Secondly, CFOs turn out to be very highly paid individuals and when you go public you get paid a lot as a CFO so what ends up happening is a lot of these people who are CFOs who've taken a company public are just very rich. And they don't want to work for you anymore they're just like whatever I have my house in the Hamptons and that's where I am and I'm just not going to go work with you.
可能你可以不聘请首席财务官就上市，但这似乎是一个非常糟糕的主意，不要这样做。是的，一般不建议这样做。因此，第一步是你需要一个确切知道如何将你上市的首席财务官。很多人会给你建议，让你聘请一个曾经带领一家公司上市的首席财务官，但这很难做到，原因有很多，其中之一是这样的人并不太多。其次，首席财务官被证明是高薪职业，当你上市时，身为首席财务官，你将得到很高的薪水，因此，这些曾领导公司上市的首席财务官，许多人已变得非常富有，他们不想再为你工作，他们可能会说，我已经有了在汉普顿的房子，我不会再和你合作了。

So, it's just a very limited pool of people who have taken a company public once and so there's that and then we did interview some some people and you know they have good experience what we ended up doing for CFOs not take somebody who had taken a company public but you know obviously you finance et cetera you came from Goldman Sachs but we maximize for kind of intelligence and grip. And that was a really good move for us and so that worked out for us quick question so intelligence I can see how you test for intelligence how do you assess grip.
因此，参与过一次公司公开发行的人群非常有限，我们采访了一些人，他们都有很好的经验。对于CFO，我们最终并没有选择一个曾经领导过一次公司上市的人，而是选择了一个来自高盛的财务人员，但是我们选择了在智力和紧密性方面最大化。这对我们来说是一个非常好的决定，结果也证明了这一点。有一个问题，我能理解您如何测试智力，但是如何评估紧密性呢？

It's just you know I think a lot of it has to do from references I mean this one map that we hired we knew a few people that knew him. There's a reference we're just and they were true the thing is they were truly they'll tell you like oh Matt's group is like the hardest working most I know so most honest guy I've ever met and I'm like to me the words honest and CFO just kind of don't go together that much I don't I don't know if I just had I was biased against it but then we hired a guy that is like the most honest guy like we call him the most sometimes some of us call him the Boy Scout because it's just like guys just kind of a good guy and so we hired a mat.
我认为这主要与推荐有关，我们在雇用这个人前认识了几个认识他的人，他们给了我们很好的推荐。事实上，他们说的话是真实的，他们告诉我们，Matt的团队是最努力工作和最诚实的人们，我觉得诚实和首席财务官这两个词在一起并不太合适，也许是我有点偏见。但后来我们雇了一个诚实度最高的人，他被我们称为童子军，因为他是个好人。所以我们雇了Matt。

And you know by the way the other thing with Matt is Matt was going to be based in New York right before COVID we hired Matt. I don't know his first day was maybe a month before COVID before like it's probably like February of 2020 or something like that he was going to be based in New York but we're headquartered in Pittsburgh we have an office in New York with about a hundred people he was going to be in that office but he knew he had to travel out to Pittsburgh. On his first day he shows up with him I don't know he'll have like ten slides a deck with his travel plans for the next two years he had pie charts of fraction of time he was going to spend like in Pittsburgh in New York on the plane like it's all this stuff that he had done like a massive analysis like what a consultant would do for some sort of analysis he's like this is my travel schedule for the next two years and I'm like wow I would have never done anything like that. I've never done anything like this but I see we hired the right person he must have spent hours and hours on this and then poor guy.
顺便说一下，马特的另一件事是，在新冠疫情之前，我们雇用了马特，并打算在纽约设立基地。他的首个工作日可能是2020年2月左右，在疫情爆发之前。他原本要在纽约的我们的办公室工作，那里有大约100个人，但他知道他必须前往匹兹堡。在他的第一天，他带来了一个由十个幻灯片组成的较大的分析报告，其中包括他未来两年的旅行计划，他已经制作了饼图，显示他将在匹兹堡、纽约和在飞机上的时间占比，还加入了其他一些类似于顾问所做分析的内容。我真的很惊讶，因为我从来没有见过这样做的人，但我认为我们雇用了正确的人。他一定花费了数个小时来完成这项工作。可怜的家伙。

COVID came and then that travel plan went down the drain. I just didn't have to travel. But anyways you hire a CFO that's kind of the first thing and then and then. For me I think what really mattered was is our revenue and this seems to be like what matters the most is our revenue predictable is our our finances predictable if your finances are not predictable you should not go public you're going to have a real bad time. So you know you want to know that your finances are predictable and by predictable I mean I've learned you need to be able to predict your finances with you know a year out and be like 3% away.
新冠肺炎来了，旅行计划也泡汤了。我只能呆在原地。但最重要的是，你雇佣的CFO应该是第一位，其次是预测我们的收入。这似乎是最重要的事情，我们需要知道我们的收入是否可预测，我们的财务是否可预测。如果你的财务不可预测，那你上市后会遭遇困境。因此，你需要知道你的财务是否可预测。我学到的是，你需要预测未来一年的财务状况，并且准确率为3%。

So this is pretty good prediction that you have to pretty good forecasting so you have to do that and you have to have a path to real profitability that's the other thing. If you don't have either of those I would say I would not go public your readers have a real bad time. The other thing to say about having gone public I'm very happy we did.
这是一个相当好的预测，你需要相当好的预测能力，然后你需要有一条通向真正盈利的路径，这是另一回事。如果你两者都没有，我会说不要上市，你的读者会遭受真正的困难。另外，我要说的是，我们上市后感到非常高兴。

The company operates better I think of it as like you know when nobody visits you in your house you can't have to clean all that much. It's not a very clean house if nobody ever visits you you're like you can't live like a slob it's like but if there's going to be a visit coming you're like oh shit I got a clean up once a quarter. Well it's not once a quarter because now we're like constant scrutiny but but but basically I think what happened is once the process of going public forced us to do all these things much better. You know these processes that were like they were just not well set up as a process or like we may not even have had a process and it's like no we're going to go public now now we have to have a process now so at this point our house is pretty clean because we get visits all the time.
我认为这家公司在运营上变得更好了。你知道，就好像当没有人来拜访你的家时，你就不必太费心打扫了。如果没有人来拜访你，你的房子就不会很干净，你不能像一个邋遢的人一样生活。但是，如果即将有人来拜访你，你就会想，“哦，该打扫了，大概每季度要打扫一次。”现在不是每季度了，因为我们现在受到持续的监管，但基本上我认为，我们能够更好地做这些事情，是因为上市的过程迫使我们更好地做这些事情。你知道，这些过程以前可能根本没有很好地建立起来，或者我们甚至可能没有一个过程，但现在我们必须有一个过程。因此，目前为止，我们的“房子”相当干净，因为我们经常有外人来访。

And I think that the thing about living in a clean house is you feel good about it yeah you know just kind of better and so I'm very happy that we weren't public. Yeah you know I just want to say also to folks who may be listening and have a small business and they're like I'm never going public this isn't relevant to me what I would say is. And there are there books that you can read that I think are.
我认为居住在一个干净的房子里的好处在于你会感觉很好，你知道就是感觉更好。所以我很高兴我们没有公开。我还想对那些可能正在聆听并拥有小企业的人说，如果你觉得自己永远不会公开，这对你来说并不相关，我想说的是，有一些书是你可以阅读的，我认为这是很有用的。

Are interesting for as a thought exercise at the very least there's a book called built to sell I think the author's name is John Warlow. And if someone wants to improve their own business let's just say it's a smaller business with five employees. Pretend like you're going to sell it right pretend like you're going to sell it in 12 months and you will go through you renovate the bathroom is what you're going to renovate the bathroom you're going to realize like oh yeah the duct tape on that part of the plumbing no no one's going to buy that that's not going to pass the inspection so we're going to have to fix that. And you can go through a very similar house cleaning process where you build systems you remove yourself as a bottleneck for certain decisions and so on that can be hugely hugely beneficial so I will just mention the parallels there.
至少作为一个思考练习是很有趣的，有一本叫《建造销售》的书，我认为作者的名字是约翰·沃洛。如果有人想提高自己的业务，就像一个拥有五名员工的小企业，假装你要将它出售。假装你将在12个月内将其出售，并进行整修。你会发现需要整修浴室，比如水管上的管道胶带，没有人会买这个，它不会通过检查，所以我们需要修复它。你可以进行非常类似的清理工作流程，在其中建立系统，消除自己在某些决策中的瓶颈等，这可以极大地有益，所以我只会提到这些相似之处。

What have been the biggest challenges of being public. Yeah or being a publicly I don't want to make it too abstract I mean there are the challenges of being a publicly traded company I'm just wondering being the CEO of a publicly traded company. A lot of people assume that my job was going to change a lot it hasn't in the other things we worked really hard to make sure that our culture didn't change a lot if you ask a random which I have if you ask a random doing employee how is it feel before and after they'll tell you very little changed. There's a couple of things you know you can't really give forward looking statements as much read where you can say like well next year we're going to make this much revenue or whatever just don't do that. Stuff like that but it's minor I would say and I think my job in particular the only real change is now I have to spend what I have a deal with our head of investment relations I only I have to spend 12 hours a quarter on talking to investors are analysts and so that's that the reason I have this deal is you can spend 100% of your time doing that and for sure.
作为公众公司，最大的挑战是什么呢？对于一个公开上市的公司来说，确实存在着许多挑战，但我只是想知道，作为一家公开上市公司的CEO，您遇到的最大的挑战是什么。许多人都认为我的工作会有很大的变化，但实际上并没有。我们非常努力地确保我们的文化没有发生很大的变化。如果你问一个随机的员工，他们感觉在公司之前和之后有什么变化，他们会告诉你，几乎没有变化。当然有一些事情是不一样的，比如你不能够做过多的前瞻性声明，比如说，你不能说明年我们会赚这么多钱之类的事情。但这只是小问题，我认为我的工作中唯一真正的变化是现在我必须花时间与我们的投资关系负责人打交道，我只需要花费每季度12个小时与投资者和分析师交流即可。这是因为你不能把全部时间都投入到这方面，当然。

Love talking to investors and analysts love talking to them but it just you can't run a company when you spend 100% of your time talking to them you just actually can't do that. So I give her 12 hours a quarter how did you settle on 12 hours I'm just so curious is that one hour a week no we negotiate it we negotiate it I started with five she's like you can't do that and she's like how about 20 I'm like in the end we just settled on on 12. That's about the biggest change I don't think there's there's much else I guess I have to write a you don't have to do this by the way I just learned I was very clueless before going public about what it really meant to be a publicly traded company one of the things I recently learned is you don't have to have earnings calls or shareholder letters you don't have to do this.
喜欢与投资者和分析师交谈，但你不能花100%的时间与他们交谈，否则你就不能经营公司。所以我每个季度给她12小时的时间。你是怎么决定12个小时的？我很好奇，是每周一个小时吗？不是的，我们协商的。一开始我提出了5个小时，她说你做不到。然后她说20小时怎么样？最终我们就在12个小时的时间上达成一致。这大概就是最大的改变了。我不认为还有其他的，不过我必须写一份股东信，这是我在上市之前非常愚昧的一点，我最近学到的一件事是你不必举行盈利电话或给股东写信。

I thought you did and we do them we do them every quarter turns out you don't this is not a legal requirement of any kind but it's probably a good idea to do it so anyways the other thing I have to write a shareholder letter we do shareholder letters and I have to do that every quarter but other than that it's been it's been good I mean we're fortunate that you know stock market has been pretty choppy we're fortunate that our stock has held up pretty well there are some companies for whom you know they're like down 90% from when they went public or something. That must be very tough. We're fortunate that that's just not the case.
我以为你已经做了这些事情，而我们每个季度都要做，结果你没做，实际上这并不是任何法律要求，但这可能是一个很好的主意。另外一件事是我必须写一封股东信，我们每个季度都要写，但除此之外，一切都很好，我意思是，我们很幸运，股票市场表现得相当动荡，但我们的股票表现得相当不错，有些公司股价下跌了90%以上，这一定很困难，我们很幸运，这种情况并未发生。

Yeah that's when the activists start circling in the waters. Yeah yeah you know it's fortunate but I also think the thing we make sure of is we both had a highly forecastable business and a good path to good profitability. I think if you have those two you're going to do okay I think it's you know last year in particular you saw a number of companies that were. You know either not very forecastable or just kind of did not care at all about profitability and I think in today's climate that's just not so great. Yeah yeah that's sort of tying an arm behind your back when you get into the boxing ring you might win you might but it does make it a little more challenging.
那时候活动人士开始在这个领域中游弋。很幸运，但我也认为最重要的是我们都有一个高度可预测的业务和通往良好盈利的良好路径。我认为，如果你拥有这两个因素，你就会过得很好。去年尤其是，你会看到许多公司。它们要么不太可预测，要么根本不关心盈利能力，我认为在今天的环境下，这并不是非常好的。这就像在拳击比赛中绑住一只手臂，你可能赢，但会变得更具挑战性。

And you know what else does not help I don't know if you've watched this show we crashed which by the way say next line show yeah the story of we work yeah I saw episode one actually it's out by Southwest. I love that show but you know one of the things that does not help is investment bankers will tell you what you want to hear. You're they're supposed to be like you know there to coach you but they make money if you go public. And they make a ton of money if you go public so it is common that they'll tell you yeah of course you're ready to go public course yeah and I just don't think they are as brutally honest as they should be. In that respect yeah well you know it's like the old buffed is done ask a barb if you need a haircut.
你知道还有什么不能帮助我吗？我不知道你是否看过这部我们崩溃的节目，顺便说一下下一行的节目是关于WeWork的故事。是的，我看了第一集，它在西南部的播出。我喜欢这个节目，但你知道有一件事情是不帮助的，那就是投资银行家会告诉你他们认为你想听的话。他们本来应该像你的指导教练一样，在那里指导你，但如果你上市了，他们会赚钱，如果你还赚得了一大笔钱，所以他们会告诉你肯定可以上市的，当然可以。但我认为他们没有像他们应该做的那样真诚地告诉你。在这方面，你知道，这就像老话里说的：别问剃头匠需要不需要剃头一样。

Being aware of the incentives involved is important. Yeah which is also you know it can be true for reward it can be true for punishment or pain as you're mentioning earlier with hiring right if you are in the hot seat and you are facing the consequences of a lack of a hot. You are going to be strongly incentivized and you might use motivated reasoning to push for a faster higher than you should. Yes and this is the crazy thing about that is that even if you're not you may not even be malicious like I'm not saying that it's just it's just this incentives work that way like. I'm not saying that investment bankers are even malicious or anything they're just like in their way of viewing the world they're like yeah it's good for you to go public. Yeah it's just human nature yeah all right
意译：了解激励机制的重要性不容忽视。这个道理同样适用于奖励和惩罚，就像你之前提到招聘与痛苦之间的关系一样，如果你在热座上，面对一个重要职位的缺失所带来的后果，你会受到强烈的激励，你可能会运用动机推理来促进比你应该更快的招聘。这就是激励机制的疯狂之处，即使你并不恶意，你可能会因此受到影响。我不是说投资银行家是恶意的或者其他什么意思，他们只是按照他们对世界的看法行事，认为上市是好事。这是人类本性的问题，好吧。

Looking towards the future new products revenue streams. What's coming yeah we're very excited by this so historically doing has been language learning. You know that's the thing we teach languages by now we're we're the largest way to learn languages in the world we're you know with most popular than. And any other way to learn languages including public school systems so that's awesome but you know our mission has always been more general just kind of we really like all of education we started with language learning so we're starting to expand to other things.
我们正在展望未来的新产品收入流。我们很期待这个，历史上我们专注于语言学习。我们教授语言，现在我们已成为全球最大的语言学习方式，比其他方式更为流行，包括公立学校系统，这太棒了。然而，我们的使命一直更为广泛，我们实际上喜欢所有的教育领域，我们从语言学习开始，现在开始扩展到其他领域。

We've launched already a literacy app that's different from language learning in that it's your native language you just need to learn how to read. So this is an app for kids right now it's only in English eyes doling go ABC that teaches kids. When we were working on it we thought kids three to six turns out kids get there's like a downward pressure for learning how to read earlier and earlier so some of our top users for the app are actually do. So there's these kids that are age to that are learning how to read on our app which I'm like I don't even think I knew I walk when I was to I don't know but somehow these kids are learning how to read at age to with with the app so we started with that we're working on a math app.
我们已经推出了一款有别于语言学习的阅读应用，它是为本地语言的阅读教学而设计的。目前，这是一款面向儿童的英语ABC教学应用。在研发时，我们原本以为这款应用适合三至六岁的儿童使用，但事实证明，越来越多的用户是两岁的儿童，他们用这款应用学习如何阅读。我个人觉得，我两岁的时候还不知道如何走路呢，但这些孩子通过这款应用学会了阅读。因此，我们将继续开发更多的应用，比如数学应用。

That is going to come out this year where the ideas you're going to be able to learn some math we're starting with elementary school math. So like I'm not first grade so not counting but we're starting with kind of basic arithmetic and fractions and stuff like that one of the interesting things about that is that. Well the reason we're starting with elementary school math is because that's kind of where you start seeing a divergence in people who are quote unquote good math versus not. Right around when you have to learn kind of multiplication and division stuff like that so we want to get to kids then that's one thing but there's another thing and I think it's going to be for the growth of the app. It's actually pretty fun for adults in that we've made it into it feels a lot like a game like like tooling I mean I have the app on my phone it feels a lot like a game and this you know third to fifth grade math is right at the level where adults find it challenging.
这款应用今年会发布，你将能学到一些数学知识，我们从小学数学开始。所以我不是小学生，但我们从基本算术和分数开始。有趣的是，我们从小学数学开始是因为那是你开始看到谁是所谓的优秀数学家和不优秀数学家的分歧点。大约在你需要学习乘法和除法之类的东西时，所以我们想让孩子们从那时开始学习。但还有另一件事，我认为它将有助于应用的增长。它实际上非常适合成年人，因为我们把它做成了游戏的感觉，像工具一样。我的手机上有这个应用，它感觉非常像游戏，而这种三到五年级的数学水平正好是让成年人感到有挑战性的水平。

But doable so if we were to give adults like most adults like ninth grade math did I can't do it like most of the like like to hard but if you're giving like adults you know some. Fraction problems or. Multiplication or stuff like that it's kind of like brain training so we actually think this app is going to grow both for students who are elementary school students but also. The app is going to kind of cater to both and we're very excited by that and again it's you know I have a PhD in computer science you would think that I am good math but I mean I'm loving kind of basic multiplication here where I'm not learning it I'm just just kind of every day kind of brain training so we're very very excited by that project.
但如果我们给成年人像大多数九年级数学那样的话，我无法像大部分人那样做到，觉得太难了。但是，如果我们给成年人一些分数问题或乘法等之类的内容，就有点像脑力训练，所以我们认为这个应用程序将会受到基础学校学生和成年人的欢迎。我们非常兴奋，因为这个项目能够迎合这两类人群，而且我自己是计算机科学博士，你可能会认为我很会数学，但实际上我只对基本的乘法感到兴奋，因为它不需要学习，可以成为日常的脑力训练。因此，我们对这个项目非常非常兴奋。

Okay so the math is going to launch in 2022 I I am very much looking forward to that and it's timely for me it's been on my brain and if you can let. Just allow me to be a little self indulgent talk for a second. It's a bit a bit later in my life trajectory but I in ninth grade I had a I was very good at math and I had a math teacher who just brutalized. The male students in the class I don't know why she did this but she she just really had an extra grind basically all of. The male cohort in that class stop taking math. Myself included and my brother had the opposite experience and ended up with PhD and statistics and is. About as quiet heavy as you can imagine. He had a very very good teacher and I've always had on some level I consider myself numerous but in a very basic way and I've wanted to.
好的，数学将在2022年推出，我非常期待。这对我来说是及时的，因为我一直在考虑这件事情。如果可以的话，请让我自我放纵谈一下。虽然我已经有点晚了，但在九年级时，我很擅长数学，我有一个数学老师非常残酷地对待男学生。我不知道她为什么要这样做，但她实际上让这个班级中所有男生都放弃了数学。包括我自己。我兄弟却有不同的经历，最终取得了统计学博士学位，他沉默而深刻。他有一位非常好的老师，我一直认为自己在某种程度上算数学多才多艺，但只是在一个非常基本的水平上。我一直想…..

Rekindle some of those capabilities or at least the interest in math and concurrent with that one of my close friends closest friends. Is about to go to grad school and will need to take an intro to stats class but this friend also stopped math quite early didn't have the support structure that I did so for her it was probably. In the earlier elementary school years so I've been thinking a lot about this and you know how do you make it not just. Learnable but hopefully on some level interesting and enjoyable and rewarding so looking at the others I can't I can't remember his name there's a professor or was it Harvey mud who developed a book called math magic.
重新点燃一些数学方面的能力，或者至少对数学产生兴趣。与此同时，我的一位好朋友的朋友即将进入研究生院，并需要参加一门入门统计课程。但这位朋友在很早的时候就停止了学习数学，没有像我一样的支持体系，所以对她来说，可能是在更早的小学年代。因此，我一直在思考如何让这门课程不仅易学，而且在某种程度上有趣、令人愉悦和有价值。我想起来还有一个教授，我记不住他的名字了，他写了一本名为《数学魔术》的书，我想也许可以参考一下。

I've heard of that one yeah yeah I feel like you know some of those techniques might be considered like cheap tricks but I do find that it is very rewarding if you teach someone how to say multiply. Double digit numbers by 11 and it's a trick yeah doesn't apply to 12 but but it shows people that they can do something they thought they couldn't do so I'm very excited to see the math program. The other thing that you know we've learned that dual English what we did with the original dual angle app. The language learning happens we got really good at getting you to repeat stuff over and over again and you know the way you learn a language is by a lot of repetition. And I really believe this to be true also of kind of the type of elementary school math and so one of the things that's awesome about this product is that it really is fun and you.
我听说过这个，是的，我觉得你知道其中一些技巧可能被认为是廉价的把戏，但我发现如果你教别人如何用11倍乘以双位数，很有收获，这是个窍门，尽管不适用于12，但它展示了人们可以做他们原本认为做不到的事情，所以我很期待数学项目。另外一个我们在原双语角应用程序中学到的事情是语言学习，我们擅长让你反复重复做某事，学习语言的方式就是反复练习。我真的相信这也适用于小学数学类型，这个产品的一件了不起的事情就是它确实很有趣，你可以玩得愉快。

We've made it so that repeating these multiplications or whatever is actually fun. Because you know you get all these kind of this progress bars and points and stuff like that and it just kind of feels fun and in you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing the way you get much better at this math is by. Repeating at 10,000 times this just that's just how you get better at it. So is there anything else that that you have coming that you'd like to talk about or anything else that you're working on that you're particularly excited about. The thing that I'm really excited about in addition to all these things is a project that we're not.
我们已经让重复这些乘法或其他数学运算变得有趣了。因为你会看到各种进度条、积分等等，让你感觉很有趣，你正在按照你该做的方式做，这样你就能更好地掌握数学了。重复1万次就是变得更好的方法。那么你还有什么其他的项目或者正在积极推进的东西想谈谈吗？除了这些事情之外，我非常兴奋的是我们正在进行的一个项目。

People in the US don't know so much for this project but it's a pretty successful and amazing project it's called the dual angle English test. What it is is a standardized English proficiency exam so basically you go there you take a test for call it 30 minutes 30 to 45 minutes and at the end you get a score from 0 to 160 about how good your English is that's it. That's the product it turns out that doing this is pretty necessary in most countries in the world again not that necessary in the US because everybody speaks English but. If you want to get a work visa in the UK you have to take a standardized English exam if you want to come to college in the US from an English speaking country you have to take a standardized English exam. If you want to get promoted in Japan and most jobs you have to take a standardized English exam so there's all these reasons for taking this and.
美国的人们对这个项目并不是很了解，但它是一个相当成功和令人赞叹的项目，被称为双角度英语考试。它是一项标准化英语能力测试，基本上你去那里参加考试，考30分钟到45分钟，最后得到一个0到160的分数，表示你的英语水平有多好。这就是产品，其实在世界上大多数国家，这样做是非常必要的，不像美国那样并不那么必要，因为每个人都会讲英语。但是如果你想在英国获得工作签证，就必须参加标准化英语考试；如果你想从一个英语国家来美国上大学，就必须参加标准化英语考试；如果你想在日本晋升职位，大多数工作也都需要参加标准化英语考试，所以有许多理由要参加这个考试。

We made our own test the reason we made our own test is because before our test you had to these all these standardized English test you have to go to a physical testing center to take them. Yeah, like you know like actually go somewhere and take a paper test etc. We thought that was ridiculous so we made our own that you can take it online and it's been really really successful in a really rewarding project because what this has done so by now our test is is now accepted for example by 4200 academic programs in the world so if you want to apply to most universities in the US like if you want to apply to MIT or Stanford they accept our test as proof of English proficiency.
我们自己制作了一个考试，原因是在我们的考试出现之前，你必须参加许多标准化的英语考试，还要去到实体的考试中心进行考试。是的，你知道的，必须亲身到某个地方去进行纸质考试等。我们认为这很荒谬，所以我们自己制作了一个在线考试，并且这个项目非常成功和有益。通过此举，我们的考试现在已经被全球4200个学术项目所认可。因此，如果你想申请美国的大多数大学，如麻省理工学院或斯坦福大学，他们都认可我们的考试作为英语能力证明。

So this is great but the reason this has been so rewarding is that we're getting all these people to take this test that simply could not take a standardized English proficiency exam before. People who live far away from cities they just couldn't or you know it turned out that in the democratic republic of Congo there was just no way to take a standardized English test. So if you were there and you wanted to apply to a place like you know a US university you have to fly somewhere to actually take the test which is kind of ridiculous so it's been very rewarding to do this and I'm very excited by this project because first of all we keep getting more and more acceptance on it. And so the hope is that this will become the standard for English proficiency so what we're hoping to do and not just for English we're hoping to do it for every language out there at least the big languages.
这很棒，但最有价值之处在于我们让许多无法参加标准英语水平考试的人参加了这个测试。居住在远离城市的人可能就无法参加，或者像在刚果民主共和国这样的地方，根本就没有一种标准英语测试的方式。因此，如果你正在那里并想申请类似美国大学这样的地方，你必须飞往某个地方参加考试，这有点荒谬，所以做这件事情非常有价值，我对此项目感到非常激动，因为我们越来越多的人接受了它。所以希望这将成为英语水平的标准，而我们希望为每一种语言（至少是大型语言）实现这一目标，而不仅仅是英语。

We're hoping to change so that when somebody asks you how much French do you know how much English do you know we want the answer to be oh I am a dual English 65 or I'm a dual in 90 that's what we want the answer to be that's not true today but that's what we want. And it would be a lot better because for example the most common answers for how much French you know are one I took four years of high school French which doesn't answer anything.
我们希望改变现状。当有人问你会说多少法语或英语时，我们希望你能回答“我是双语英语水平65或90级”。这是我们想要的答案，但现在并非如此。如果能这样回答会更好，因为通常人们回答会说“我上了四年高中法语”，这并没有回答问题。

The other one is I'm intermediate which is like also like what the hell does that even mean so we really want people to say I'm a dual 65 in French and our approach for this is going to be the test is one side which gives it our score legitimacy look that score is good enough for you to get into you know MIT or Duke or whatever.
另一个问题是我处于中级水平，这意味着什么甚至也不太清楚，因此我们真的希望人们能说“我在法语方面是双重65级”，我们的方法是测试在一方面，这使得我们的评分更加公正可信，这个分数足以让你进入MIT、杜克大学或其他学校。

That's good. And then we don't have that yet but we're going to start putting that score in the app when I start putting an estimated score of the dual in going English test where the dual in go Spanish test once we have a Spanish test we don't have a Spanish test. We're going to start putting in the app that gives it scale so pretty soon literally hundreds of millions of people are going to have an estimated score.
这很不错。接下来，我们还没有做到，但我们将开始在应用程序中放置一个估计的分数，在进行英语测试时，在进行西班牙语测试时，我们还没有西班牙语测试。我们将在应用程序中开始使用这个分数，使它具有规模，所以很快数以亿计的人将有一个估计的分数。

And the hope is that people start putting in the resume etc and I think if we're able to do that this will be not only good for the world but also for the company that will be a very defensible position because we kind of own the scale so I'm very excited by that.
希望人们开始提交简历等资料，如果我们能做到这一点，这不仅对世界有益，对公司来说也是一个非常具有防御能力的位置，因为我们拥有规模优势，所以我感到非常兴奋。

I want to share a little bit of backstory and then I want to ask a question about how you actually do this testing so the backstory that I wanted to share briefly is that you're very good at catching cheaters do a history of catching cheaters so I don't want to spend too much time on this but I'll just give a quick recap so you.
我想分享一点背景故事，并且想问一个有关如何进行测试的问题。我想简要地分享一下您非常擅长捉到作弊者的经历，因此我不想花太多时间在此上，但我会简要回顾一下。

You have taught a Carnegie Mellon and my recollections is this is short hand here based on notes I have but you tell students they were not to Google certain answers for specific homework assignments then you would create honey pot websites with the answers to homework questions the websites would record IP addresses then you would call out the cheaters and tell the class if they confess they would simply get a zero but if.
您曾经教过卡内基梅隆大学，我的回忆是这里的便签式笔记。您曾告诉学生不应使用谷歌查找某些特定作业题的答案，然后您会创建蜜罐网站来回答作业问题。这些网站会记录IP地址，然后您会揭露作弊者并告诉班级，如果他们承认作弊，他们将只得到零分；但如果。

If he meaning you had to do the work of figuring out who it was you would report them and they got so scared of your tricks that they eventually all stopped you so you have a history of catching people who are trying to game the system in the case of remote aptitude testing for English are you still using the the front facing camera and microphone on a phone or how do you set it up such that it is hard to game the system yeah we've.
如果他的意思是要让你自己找出谁在欺骗系统并且他们对你的把戏感到害怕，以至于最终所有人都停止了欺骗，那你就有一个抓住那些试图欺骗系统的人的历史。关于远程英语能力测试，你是否仍然使用手机前置摄像头和麦克风，或者你如何设置使得很难欺骗系统？是的，我们有。

Spent a lot of effort to make sure that is one of the hardest things you have to one of the hardest problems you have to solve if you are testing. Some like an English proficiency for high stakes test. And this by the way that's the reason why they forced people to go to testing centers because they wanted to make sure they were cheating.
在测试中，确保这是你必须解决的最困难的问题之一需要付出很多的努力，比如英语水平测试。这正是他们强制人们去测试中心的原因，因为他们想要确保没有作弊。

It turns out we were able to solve this and we just use a number of tricks I mean obviously we turn on the front facing camera of the device right now the test only works on computers we did not do it for phones. So you have to take it on a computer front facing camera the device we have a real human watch you to the test. We also have artificial intelligence that kind of looks at where you're looking and that turns out to be really powerful when you are taking a test it is very predictable where you're going to be looking I mean you basically on the screen there is the area that has the question we need to see that you actually went and read that.
原来我们成功地解决了这个问题，我们只是运用了一些技巧。毕竟，我们现在打开设备的前置摄像头，目前这个测试只能在电脑上使用，我们没有为手机设备做出适应。因此，您需要在电脑前置摄像头下进行测试，我们会派一个真正的人来观察您的测试。我们还使用了人工智能来检测您的视线方向，这在进行测试时非常有用，因为我们可以预测您的注视位置，例如屏幕上的问题区域是否被浏览过。

And you know your eyes scan that then you're probably going to be looking where you're typing et cetera so you can pretty well tell that that is actually the person taking the test as opposed to being taken by somebody else. We also do all kinds of other things I mean we record all the ambient noise we also lock down your computer as in like you have to download an app that that kind of turns off everything in your computer and also tells us whether your computer is connected to external devices whether you have all kinds of you know like for example some.
你知道你的眼睛会扫过那个区域，然后你可能会看着你正在打字的地方，这样你几乎可以确定那是正在参加测试的人，而不是别人代替的。我们还会做各种其他的事情，比如记录所有的周围噪声，还会锁定你的电脑，就像你需要下载一个应用程序，它可以关闭你电脑中的所有东西，并告诉我们你的电脑是否连接到外部设备，以及你是否拥有各种各样的设备，比如某些……

Some headphones that are telling you the answer or whatever so a lot of that we do a lot of that and the way we know we catch cheaters is that we actually have a program where we pay people to try to cheat and we see whether they're successful or not that's great yeah you read team your own system we do and that's been really good and you know every now and then they're able to find something that kind of passes through and then we patch it.
有些耳机可以告诉你答案或其他信息，所以我们经常会用到它们。我们有一个计划，雇佣人来尝试作弊，以此来检查作弊者。我们可以通过这种方式来测试我们的系统安全性，并做出修复。有时候他们能够成功地找到某些通过测试的方法，然后我们会进行修补。

And I'll tell you even though this is kind of the new technology and everything and people would say like but it's still computers maybe maybe they're doing something weird it's a hell of a lot easier to cheat in offline kind of testing centers because the way people cheat in these offline testing centers is so easy and it's as follows most of these testing centers aren't developing countries.
尽管这是一种新技术，人们可能会说它仍然是计算机，可能会有什么奇怪的操作，但我要告诉你，在离线测试中心作弊要容易得多。因为人们作弊的方法非常简单，如下所述：大多数这些测试中心位于发展中国家。

The person who is the attendant the person who works at the testing center is not a highly paid employee in a developing country turns out non highly paid employees in developing countries will take a hundred bucks bribe for well almost anything so this is this is how you cheat there and it's actually very this is low low fidelity all school cheating which is like here's on a box. Just say that I took the test but actually here's my friend who actually speaks English let them take the test thanks bye so that is how people cheat.
在一个发展中国家的测试中心工作的员工一般不是高薪雇员。事实证明，发展中国家的低薪员工几乎可以为任何事情接受一百美元的贿赂，因此这就是作弊的方式。这种欺骗方式相当低效，属于旧式作弊，就像这样：我说我参加了考试，但实际上是我的会说英语的朋友参加了考试，谢谢再见，所以人们就是这样作弊的。

People actually cheat that way you cannot cheat that way with our test because you cannot see who's proctoring you you just you can't you can't communicate with them et cetera so you feel pretty good about the anti testing mechanics here. Yeah I'm glad I asked that that covered a lot more than than I expected we would cover do you still eat Greek yogurt for breakfast at least last time we spoke you to the same breakfast for two to three years as well as the as an example of one decision that removes a thousand decisions or have you have you decided to swap in a new breakfast for yourself.
事实上，人们采取这种方式作弊，但在我们的测试中，你无法采取这种方式作弊，因为你看不到谁在监考，你不能与他们交流等等，因此你对这里的反作弊机制感到非常满意。是的，我很高兴我问了这个问题，它覆盖了比我预期的要多得多的内容。上次我们交谈时，你还是吃希腊酸奶当早餐，你已经保持了两三年。这是一个消除了一千个决策的决定的例子，你是否决定换一种新的早餐呢？

I swapped in I'm very similar but I just do now it's just a little jug of muscle milk because my trainer Gary on his first date Gary's a funny guy he only cares about strength he said let's have a drink. He said let's have the nutrition conversation I'm like okay and he said drink muscle milk and then I'm like anything else he's like nope just drink muscle milk thanks that was his nutrition conversation good talk good talk. I was hoping he'd be like well you know eat this type of whatever vegetable and this after that nothing he's just like just drink some muscle milk so it's what I do for breakfast.
我换成了类似的方式，但现在只是一小瓶肌肉牛奶，因为我的教练加里在他的第一次约会时。加里是个有趣的家伙，他只关心力量。他说让我们喝一杯，然后说让我们谈一谈营养，我说好的，他说喝肌肉牛奶，我问还有别的吗，他说没有，就喝肌肉牛奶。这就是他的营养谈话，谈得真好。我还希望他会说吃这种蔬菜之类的，可惜他只是让我喝肌肉牛奶，所以现在我只是喝它作为早餐。

It's simple daily have it yeah it's like brushing your teeth yeah all right two more questions maybe three and then we can bring this to a close and land the plant all right so next question is more generalized what advice would you give to a smart driven say college student could you could pick a different age. About to enter the real world and secondarily if you want to take a stab at this you know what advice should they ignore.
这很简单，就像每天刷牙一样，很容易。好吧，再问两个或三个问题，然后我们就可以结束了，收官前最后问题是更普遍的。如果您能选择不同的年龄，请给一个聪明、有动力、即将进入现实世界的大学生（可以选择不同的年龄）提出什么建议？其次，如果您想给出一个尝试，您会建议他们忽略哪些建议？

You know for me the biggest advice is. I mean it depends on what you want you want to get a job you want to work you want to work or do you want to just play video games if you want to play video games go play games whatever that's fine. But if you actually want to get a job I would say the most important thing is find a way to become useful.
你知道我个人给你的最重要的建议是什么吗？这取决于你想要什么——你想找到一份工作、工作、或者只是想玩电子游戏。如果你想玩游戏，那就去玩游戏，这没关系。但是，如果你真的想找到一份工作，我认为最重要的事情是找到一种成为有用的方法。

You know I am getting older and I don't know if it's just always people talking about the younger generations this way but a lot of times a lot of kind of the you know the gen Z's used to be even millennials but the Gen Z's. They show up and they're like what are you going to do for me and it's like well can you do this no no no I don't like that that's not a look at learning opportunity for me.
你知道我越来越老了，我不知道是不是因为人们总是这样谈论年轻一代，但很多时候，很多所谓的Z一代、甚至是千禧一代的人，他们出现之后就问你能为我做些什么，如果你问他们能不能做某件事，他们就会说不，不喜欢那个，那对我来说不是一个学习的机会。

Or like you hired me to be a software engineer I'm not going to do that's not my job I'm not going to do that that's not my job. The attitude of just finding a way to become useful gets you a lot farther yeah certainly a dueling but I think in most places in life where it's just like oh you need me to do this this is what's actually needed yeah I'll do it I'm pretty smart I'll figure it out I'll do it.
如果你雇我做软件工程师，但那不属于我的工作内容，我不会去做。相反，我会尽力找到自己在工作中的用处，这样做能让我走得更远。虽然在某些场合下会需要较高的技能，但在大多数情况下，当需要做一些事情时，只要这是真正需要的，我就会尝试着去做，因为我相信我聪明能干能够想办法。

And now obviously you know if you're hard to be a software engineer you should not go and like build a building because you don't even know how to do that but just kind of just find ways to become useful and crucial for the company will get you a lot more perks and promotions than having this attitude of like you know what are you going to do for me. Yeah that's just my sense and I see that a lot of the what are you going to do for me attitude yeah you know just to add to that the opposite would be something like and I think I'm getting this right so friend of mine Kelly star at very well known performance coach PT has written many books works with a lot of professional athletes the top tier of of elite military and he also happened to be.
现在你肯定知道了，如果你想成为一名软件工程师，你不应该去建造大楼，因为你不知道如何做，但是找到成为公司有用和至关重要的方法，会为你带来更多的福利和晋升机会，而不是像那些只关注自己的态度。是的，这是我的想法，我看到很多人都有“你能为我做什么”的态度，我想补充一点，相反的态度可能是：我的一个朋友Kelly Star是一个著名的表现教练，写了许多书籍，为许多职业运动员，顶级精英军人工作，他也恰好是…（此处省略）。

I would I would say he might disagree but Olympic level whitewater kayaker for a period of time and I went on the I went on a river trip with him and he mentioned to everybody as this priming talk as part of this orientation he said you know that there are really four words that will make the biggest difference in this trip and it's how can I help he's just like everybody should ask that and if you just I mean it's it seems so rudimentary but I'm not sure if you can do it.
我认为他可能会不同意，但他曾经是一名奥林匹克级别的急流皮划艇手，并且我和他一起参加了一次漂流之旅。作为这次预备会议的一部分，他向所有人提到了一个预备讲话，他说你知道，在这次旅行中，真正会让事情变得不同的是四个词——“怎样可以帮助”。他认为每个人都应该问这个问题，尽管这听起来非常基础，但我不确定你是否能做到。

So rudimentary but I would agree with you and man if you just take that attitude like you're on a river trip how can I help if you've got some extra time or slack. It really will distinguish you it really does it is amazing I mean I see it we do you know with course we hire a lot of people and everybody who hire is pretty awesome but the ones that have more of this attitude just get farther in life. Yeah I just because they're just there like how can I help I just I just need to help we have a I have a story of it's kind of two separate employees. This is kind of early dual angle where we didn't have a blog of course now have a blog for stuff one just kept complaining we didn't have a blog he's like I can't believe we don't have a blog why don't we have a blog. It was ridiculous we don't have a blog but never did anything another one started and they just said I noticed we don't have a blog so I started one. And here it's linked to the website that is the attitude that helps a lot more than just being like I can't believe we don't have a blog how about you do something about it.
虽然很基本，但我同意你的想法，如果你抱着像划船一样的态度，问问自己是否有多余的时间或资源，能否帮上什么忙。这真的会区别对待，这简直太神奇了。我意思是，我们雇了很多人，每个人都很棒，但那些有更多这种态度的人将在生活中取得更大的成功。是的，因为他们就在那里，问自己我如何帮忙，我只是需要帮忙而已。我有个故事，讲的是两个不同的员工。这是早期的双重视角，我们没有博客。当然现在有博客了，但其中一个员工不停地抱怨我们没有博客，他说他无法相信我们没有博客，为什么没有博客。这很荒谬，但他从来没有采取任何行动。另一个员工开始意识到我们没有博客，所以他自己开始动手做了一个，并将其链接到了网站上。这种态度比仅仅说我不能相信我们没有博客，你得自己行动起来要好得多。

Okay last question for me and then there's just a closing question of if there's anything else you'd like to add say or direct the listeners to anyway in the last handful of years what have you become better at saying no to could be distractions invitations anything are there any new realizations or approaches that have have helped you to say no to more maybe that's not even problem you have but I figured out asking. No I have a problem saying no and I definitely become better at saying no you know in some cases I just don't have the time but it is a problem I mean the promise I'm a people pleaser like I want to please the people in front of me whoever they are sometimes even if they are random stranger emailing me some stuff I still am a people pleaser so this is not that new but it is a big trick that I learn a little while ago specifically for invitations and stuff like that which is. I used to say yes to an invitation to like give a talk next year just go give a talk next year and I was to say yes because I thought next year I won't be that busy or whatever like and just if you change your framing whenever somebody asks you to do something a long time from now change the framing and say what if it was tomorrow.
最后一个问题是关于你在过去几年中变得更善于拒绝的事情，这可以指分神的事情、邀请等等。你有任何新的领悟或方法可以帮助你有更多的勇气拒绝，也许这不是你的问题，但我想问问。 我确实有拒绝的问题，但我肯定变得更善于拒绝了。有时候我仅仅是没有时间。但问题在于我是一个人心灵需要美滋滋的人。我想让身边的人高兴，不管他们是谁，即使是陌生的人发给我的电子邮件，我仍然想让他们高兴。这并不是什么新鲜事，但有一段时间我学会了一个诀窍，用于拒绝邀请等事情。以前我会同意在明年去发表演讲的邀请，因为我认为明年我不会那么忙之类的想法，但现在我会改变思路，问自己如果这个邀请是在明天，我会怎么做。

Would you want to do this or not. Almost invariably the answer is not I definitely don't want to do this tomorrow and then you should answer based on that you know and I think that has helped me say no to a lot of things where you just say like okay because it's not necessarily a trick that people use although sometimes maybe it is a trick but you know when you I just get asked to do certain things months from now and I never think about. Man I'm actually going to have to do it and it's going to suck I just never think about that so I'm just like yeah months from now I doesn't matter doesn't matter you really you really should get a lot better at that and just think about. What if it was tomorrow whether you do it tomorrow good advice good advice Luis is there anything else that you would like to.
你想不想做这件事？几乎总是会得到“不想”这个答案。然后你应该根据这个回答来做决定，我认为这帮助我说不做很多事情，有时人们可能会使用这样的技巧，但是你应该意识到。有时我会被要求几个月后做某些事情，我从不去想我真的要去做这件事，可能会很糟糕。所以我就会说，“几个月后呀，没事儿，不用考虑”，但你真的应该变得更好一些，在想到这些事情时就要考虑，如果是明天会怎么做，这是一个好建议，Luis，你还有其他想要说的吗？

Add any requests of the audience. Of course people can find you on Twitter at Luis on on they can find do a lingo do a lingo dot com or anywhere they find their apps most certainly they can find it anything else that you would like to add or mention draw attention to or closing comments.
请提醒观众任何要求。当然，人们可以在Twitter上找到你@Luis，在doalingo.com上找到你，或在任何他们找到应用程序的地方找到你。你还想添加或提到任何其他事项吗？请留下你的评论。

I do have one thing other you know you're welcome to cut it if you don't think it's going to be all that interesting but I would be remiss if I didn't say this and it is it is about my country Guatemala. I would like to call attention particularly here in the United States about the level of corruption there and you're like okay who cares Guatemala's corrupt. First of all it's extremely corrupt and there are real consequences for the United States and in particular one of them is probably illegal immigration there's you know Guatemala's if it's I believe the second country with largest illegal immigration into the United States there's a lot of there's literally millions of illegal immigrants from Guatemala here in the United States.
我有一件事想说，在下文中你可以随时删去，如果你不认为这会太有趣，但如果我不说，我会感到遗憾。我想特别呼吁在美国的人注意关于我国危地马拉的腐败程度，你可能会觉得“谁关心危地马拉的腐败程度呢？”危地马拉的腐败程度极其严重，而且对美国产生了真正的后果，尤其是非法移民问题。我相信危地马拉是美国非法移民人数第二大的来源国，有成千上万的非法移民来自危地马拉。

And you can be very concerned about that and not only can you be very concerned about the treatment of them in the border which I think is horrendous but you know once they're here like you can be very concerned about that.
你可以非常关注这个话题，不仅可以对他们在边境的待遇感到极为不满，我认为那是可怕的，但是你知道，一旦他们来到这里，你也可以对此非常关注。

And the sole reason why they're leaving so much is because the country is extremely corrupt and just cannot you know handle itself basically. And the reason I like to call attention to that is because I do believe the United States and their foreign policy can actually help with this in many ways and unfortunately that is just not something that's happening too much but I do believe that as long as Guatemala continues to be this corrupt there will continue being a lot of illegal immigration and I also think there's so kinds of stuff I mean it the thing is so close to the US that it has become a hub for you know basically international crime.
他们大量离开的唯一原因是因为这个国家极其腐败，基本上无法自理。我想要引起关注的原因是因为我相信美国及其对外政策可以在许多方面帮助解决这个问题，但不幸的是这并不是正在发生的事情。我相信只要危地马拉继续这样腐败，就会继续出现大量的非法移民。此外，我也认为这里出现了许多种类的犯罪，因为这个国家非常靠近美国，已经成为国际犯罪的中心。

And you know when they're close to the US that means some of that crime spills over to here you know so far it hasn't happened where we haven't seen like we haven't seen a terrorist attack where the terrorists came to Guatemala but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens where you know it's just extremely corrupt place and they just kind of funnel stuff from there so.
当他们靠近美国时，你知道这意味着一些犯罪会溢出到这里来。到目前为止，我们还没有看到恐怖分子到危地马拉来发动恐怖袭击，但如果这种情况发生，我不会感到惊讶。这是一个极其腐败的地方，他们从那里筛选信息。

Given that it's so close to this country I think this is of importance and of course I have a self serving reason for saying this I mean I would like my country to do better but at this point the level of corruption there is is unbelievable. So that's the one thing that I that I would like to call attention to that's why I asked I think this is perfectly fine place to talk about this and let me ask you follow up for those policy makers.
考虑到它与这个国家如此接近，我认为这是非常重要的事情，当然我也有一些自私的原因，我希望我的国家能表现得更好，但是目前那里的腐败程度令人难以置信。所以这就是我想引起关注的一件事情，这也是为什么我提出这个问题的原因，我认为这是一个完全适合谈论这个问题的地方。让我问一下那些政策制定者的跟进问题。

People listening who may actually be able to look at this work closely and have an impact are do you have any specific recommendations or requests of them I do a number of them probably one of the biggest ones is there's a free trade agreement with Guatemala the same one is NAFTA I mean there's a free trade agreement with kind of you know Mexico and Guatemala etc there are classes there like anti corruption classes.
听众们，你们中可能有一些人能够仔细研究这个项目，并产生影响，你们有任何具体的建议或请求吗？我提出了许多建议中最重要的之一，就是与危地马拉签订了与北美自由贸易协定相同的自由贸易协定，类似于墨西哥和危地马拉等其他国家也有一些课程，比如反腐败课程。

They are being overlooked it is known that there's a lot of corruption in a lot of these countries and I think that the US can say you know what it's clear you're that corrupt we're going to we're going to clamp down on NAFTA unless you fix your problem and this would get these countries to fix their problems because they care about something like NAFTA because they make a lot of money off of it money moves things so that's that's one thing another one is considering I mean there are sanctions that they put to individuals.
他们被忽视了。众所周知，这些国家存在很多腐败问题，我认为美国可以说：“你们是如此腐败，我们将限制并改进北美自由贸易协定，除非你们解决问题”。这将促使这些国家解决其问题，因为他们关心NAFTA，会从中赚很多钱，所以金钱能够推动事态发展。另外一种方式是对个人施加制裁。

The US has done these things where certain individuals they just consider them so corrupt that it like sorry you cannot enter this country anymore we don't even want you to come visit you know the shopping trip to Miami or whatever we don't want that. Crazy story some of the highest government officials in Guatemala including our attorney general is banned from entering the United States because they're considered so corrupt applying more of that that actually has real teeth and in particular applying that to corrupt business people because they are not going to be a real deal.
美国已经对某些人采取了这些措施，他们认为这些人非常腐败，以至于很抱歉，你不能再进入这个国家，我们甚至不想让你来参观，你知道那个去迈阿密购物之旅或者其他的什么。令人惊讶的是，危地马拉包括我们的总检察长在内的最高政府官员之一被禁止进入美国，因为他们被认为非常腐败。我们要更多地应用这种实质性的解决方法，尤其是针对腐败商人，因为他们不会是真正的交易。

Because they all love their nice mansion in Miami or you know I bring up Miami because Miami Latin Americans love Miami they love having mansions there they all have their nice mansion in Miami etc if suddenly they cannot come to the US that's bad and it looks bad for their kids because their kids they love to come to Miami and their kids friends lived so this is the type of stuff that I think has teeth that the US can do.
因为他们都喜欢他们在迈阿密的漂亮豪宅，或者你知道我提到迈阿密是因为迈阿密的拉丁美洲人喜欢迈阿密，他们喜欢在那里拥有豪宅，他们都有自己漂亮的豪宅等等。如果突然不能来美国，这很糟糕，并且对他们的孩子看起来不好，因为他们的孩子喜欢来迈阿密，他们的朋友也住在那里，这是我认为美国可以做到的有实际效果的事情。

Well thank you Luis I did I did not see that coming and I'm glad you brought it up. I thought about this problem a lot I thought about about this I mean I poured millions of dollars to try to improve I own a good fraction of the oldest running newspaper in Guatemala and we we do a lot of stuff against corruption so I poured a lot of money onto this.
很感谢你，路易斯。我没想到你会提出这个问题，但我很高兴你提了出来。我思考了很长时间这个问题，我注入了数百万美元去改善它。我拥有危地马拉最古老的报纸的一部分股份，我们在反腐败方面做了很多工作，所以我花了很多钱在这方面。

Yeah but unfortunately I've kind of calculated that it's a lot I think the corruption problem in Guatemala could be solved with some money but I think it's like billions of dollars unfortunately I have not dropped that amount but I put in millions of dollars to try to fix this.
是的，但不幸的是，我已经计算过，需要大量资金才能解决危地马拉的腐败问题。我认为这可能需要数十亿美元，但我不够富有，只能投入数百万美元来尝试解决这个问题。

All right what I might do is ask you after we stopped this recording well to get maybe a few links for policy makers who may be interested in in learning more about this and the different resources they might want to educate themselves on whether it's trade agreements or otherwise so we'll get some links and put those in the show notes as well and Luis thank you for making the time it's nice to see you man it's been a time to be a little bit more interesting.
好的，我可能会在录制结束后向您要一些链接，以便可能对这个感兴趣并想要了解更多相关资源的政策制定者们进行教育，无论是贸易协议或其他方面的资源，我们会放置一些链接在节目注释中。Luis，感谢您抽出时间，很高兴能见到你，这段时间会更有趣一些。

It's been a little while thank you Tim I mean and for those who can't see the video I appreciate the matrix like background that you have as well it's very compelling. Thank you Tim I mean I'm a great studio here near the Oolong offices and hope to see you in person not too long from now so maybe maybe we can next time you're in New York City we can figure out a way to break some bread or have a drink together. I would love that if you're in New York City I'm there very often I would love that.
已经有一段时间了，感谢你，蒂姆。 对于那些无法看到视频的人，我也很欣赏你的矩阵式背景，非常引人入胜。非常感谢你，蒂姆。我在Oolong公司附近有一个很棒的工作室，希望不久之后能够亲自见到你，也许我们下次你在纽约市时可以一起分享面包和喝酒。如果你在纽约市，我经常在那里，我会很高兴见到你的。

All right wonderful well Luis thank you so much and I always enjoy our conversations as I mentioned before people can find you at Luis on on Twitter dolingo.com and we'll link to everything in the show notes at Tim. blog slash podcast and to everyone listening be just a little kinder than necessary today and. Thank you so much for tuning in and until next time take care.
好的，非常好的，Luis，非常感谢你，我一直享受我们的对话，正如我之前提到的，人们可以在Twitter上找到你的Luis页面和dolingo.com网站，我们会在Tim的博客/播客的节目笔记中提供链接，感谢大家收听，希望大家今天多一点善意，下次再见，保重。