Italy floods: Questions grow about the official response
发布时间 2023-05-19 05:19:00 来源
摘要
More than 20 rivers have burst their banks in Italy, leaving 13 people dead and forcing thousands from their homes after six months' rainfall fell in a day and a half. We speak to one man trying to clean up the damage.
Also in the programme: A special report from the Kenyan forest where more than two hundred members of a starvation cult died; and the hidden cost of El Salvador's crackdown on gangs.
(Firefighters work next to a flooded car after heavy rains hit Italy's Emilia Romagna region, Faenza Italy, May 18 2023. Credit: Reuters/Claudia Greco)
GPT-4正在为你翻译摘要中......
中英文字稿 
Hello and welcome to this podcast from the BBC World Service. Please let us know what you think and tell other people about us on social media. Podcasts from the BBC World Service are supported by advertising.
大家好，欢迎收听BBC世界新闻的播客节目。请告诉我们您的想法，同时在社交媒体上分享给其他人。BBC世界新闻的播客节目得到广告赞助。
Hello and welcome to news out from the BBC World Service coming to you live from London. I'm James Kimarassami.
大家好，欢迎收听来自伦敦直播的BBC世界服务新闻播报。我是詹姆斯·金马拉萨米。在这里我们将为您带来最新的新闻报道。
We begin today in Northeastern Italy where 13 people are now known to have died in the region of Emilia Romagna. After six months worth of rain fell in just a couple of days. 20 rivers have burst their banks nearly 300 landslides have been recorded.
我们今天从意大利东北部开始报道，艾米利亚—罗马涅大区有13人的死亡已经得到证实。在雨水连绵了六个月后，短短几天内就下了六个月的降雨量。20条河流决堤，近300起山体滑坡发生。
The area has experienced serious flooding before most recently just two years ago. But this is on a different scale.
这个地区曾经经历过严重的洪水，最近仅仅两年前。但是这次情况比以往更加严重。
Michele De Pascali is the mayor of Ravenna, a city close to the Adriatic coast. It's one of the places in the region worst hit by the flooding. And he told news out about the impact the waters have had.
米歇尔·德·帕斯卡利是拉文纳市市长，拉文纳市靠近亚得里亚海岸，是该地区受洪水影响最严重的地方之一。他向新闻界表示了洪水对当地造成的影响。
The flood that hit my city and my region especially Romagna has been like someone pointed the perfect storm. And the facts have been catastrophic. Many people have lost their homes their possession someone their life. We have in the town of Ravenna 25,000 people out of home.
袭击我所在城市和我的地区，尤其是罗马涅的洪水，就像有人指出了一场完美的风暴。事实上是灾难性的。许多人失去了家园、财产，甚至有人失去了生命。在拉文纳镇，有2.5万人无家可归。
Well, among the people who have had to leave their homes further inland are Nicolo Santoro's parents in law. He was clearing out their house in the town of Bottaginno, Dezocca, just south of the regional capital, Bologna, when we got through to him.
好的，不得不离开他们的家前往内陆的人们中，尼科洛·桑托罗（Nicolo Santoro）的岳父母也在其中。当我们联系到他时，他正在位于博洛尼亚地区首府南方的德佐卡的博塔吉诺镇清理他们的房子。
I'm currently in the countryside of Bologna, we are here taking care of the house of my father's in law, which yesterday got covered at the first floor with the water and mud like we have never seen before. It happened two years ago that we had the same problem but it was not that much water at the end as it is time. So in that period we decided to take care of the cleanlands and the mountains of the river in front of the house, at our own cause obviously because no one here is taking care of the cleanlands of the rivers anymore here in Italy. We have a big problem on the side.
我现在在博洛尼亚的乡村，我们在这里照顾我岳父的房子，昨天，一楼被水和泥浆覆盖，我们以前从未见过这样的情况。两年前我们也遇到过同样的问题，但最后的水没那么多。所以在那段时间里，我们决定照顾房子前面河流中的清洁土地和山区，当然，这是我们自己的事，因为在意大利这里已经没有人照顾河流的清洁土地了。我们这里有一个很大的问题。
And we raised the embankment by four meters, but yesterday it was not enough. We found ourselves with one meter and a half mud and water inside the house at the first floor. What is the scene like now? Can you perhaps describe it?
我们把堤坝提高了四米，但昨天还是不够。我们发现一楼内有一米半的泥水淹进了房子里。现在的情况是怎么样的？你能描述一下吗？
When we arrived yesterday everything was floating around because there was still water inside the house, it was still like one meter and the water left there was 40 cm of mud and it was so difficult to walk around even. Now we are trying to clean everything. I really need to thank a lot of people in the neighborhood which are really helping us a lot in this moment, but no one from the state or the region is coming here to help us. So I really, really want to thank these people who are helping us.
昨天我们到达时，房子里还有很多水，一切都在漂浮，水深约有1米，留下的泥巴有40厘米，走动都非常困难。现在我们正在努力清理一切。我真的需要感谢附近很多人，在这个时候帮助我们了很多，但没有任何来自国家或地区的人来帮助我们。因此，我非常非常感谢这些帮助我们的人。
And you say that you had to yourselves build up the embankment to try and put some protection in following the most recent floods? Yeah, but we just cleaned the like one hundred meters off the river in front of the house, but the problem is much bigger. We need to take care of the rivers.
你说你们自己修建了堤坝，试图在最近的洪水后提供一些保护？是的，但我们只是清理了房子前面一百米的河流，问题要严重得多。我们需要照顾好河流。
Why did you have to do it yourselves? Because no one came here to ask us if we needed to clean that on the mountains of the river.
为什么你们非要自己动手呢？因为没有人来问我们是否需要清理河山上的东西。
What is the damage like? How much can you save? Yeah, probably nothing on the first floor since the mud was everywhere. In every door we found everything floating and TV is electronic, it's all gone and the furniture etc. Really crazy.
灾情怎么样？你能节约多少钱呢？也许一楼什么都没有了，因为泥泞到处都是。我们在每扇门口都发现了漂浮的东西，电视、家具等等，都已经毁了。真是太疯狂了。
And what about insurance, flood insurance? Fortunately this time we had that not like the two years ago, and we will try to get something back, but we don't actually know what is covered and what is not.
那么保险怎么办？洪水保险呢？幸运的是，这次我们有了保险，不像两年前那样。我们会尝试获得一些赔偿，但我们实际上不知道哪些是保险覆盖的，哪些不是。
So you learned a lot from what happened two years ago, but you're saying the authorities didn't? No, actually not at all.
所以你从两年前发生的事情中学到了很多，但你在说当局没有学到吗？实际上根本没有。
And your parents in law they got out in time. You got them out? Yeah, they can yesterday to our house because we saw the danger coming and with five dogs two cats they had to move yesterday. And if not an easy moment for them to arrive at a level where they get crazy seeing their things, get destroyed and really we are here to help them, but it's really hard.
你的公婆及时逃出来了。是你帮他们逃出来的吗？是的，因为我们看到灾难将要来临，他们昨天来到了我们家。因为他们有五只狗和两只猫，所以他们不得不昨天就搬家了。如果不是因为这个时刻非常困难，他们看到他们的东西被摧毁会变得疯狂，我们在这里帮助他们，但这真的很难。
You say the authorities haven't really helped out until now, but what are you expecting them to do? I mean we still have not seen no one from the authorities here. I think they are all occupied in a bigger center like CT or a river. No one came here.
你说到目前为止当局没有真正帮助过我们，但你期望他们做什么？我是说我们还没有看到任何来自当局的人员在这里。我想他们都在更大的中心地区（像CT或一条河流）忙碌。没有人来到这里。
You can hear the machines, but the machines are from people in the neighborhood. We had that and they are really helping us in this moment because no one from the state came here. So that's just local farmers helping out? Yeah.
你能听到机器的声音，但这些机器来自社区里的人。我们有这些机器，他们在这个时刻真的帮了我们大忙，因为没有来自政府的人来这里。所以这是当地的农民在帮忙吗？是的。
And how long do you anticipate this clear up effort will take? We are taking away the bigger part, but we still need to clean all the whole the house inside, dry everything and see what we can recover and what has to be thrown away.
你预计清理工作需要多长时间？我们正在处理大部分问题，但我们仍需要清理房子内的整个空间，让所有东西都干燥，然后看看哪些可以恢复，哪些必须被扔掉。
You're probably not reflecting too much on the causes of this, but do you think the fact you've had these two extreme weather events in just a couple of years and so much damage is directly related to climate change? It probably can be also two weeks ago. We had a big rainfall with the river coming out, so the floor was probably already saturated. And yeah, all this period of dry and big rainfall, those extremes could obviously be referred to to climate change. Given that, what do you think of the way the authorities have reacted? As I told you, no one came here, so I know they have a lot of work now, but really no one can hear asking if we need to help. Well, Nicolau, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us and best of luck with all the clear up. Thank you, Jamie. I go back to work. Back to work. Nicolau Santoro, speaking to me from his in-laws house in the town of Bottagino di Zocca, just south of Bologna, and we'll be putting that criticism to the party that runs the region Emilia Romagna later in the program.
你可能没有太多思考这一问题的原因，但你认为你们在几年内遇到了两次极端天气事件，造成了如此大的损失，这与气候变化直接相关吗？这或许也可能是两个星期前发生的事情。我们经历了一次大的降雨导致河水溢出，地面很可能已经饱和了。而且，这段时间的干旱和大雨，这些极端现象显然与气候变化有关。鉴于此，你认为当局的反应如何？正如我告诉你的那样，没有人来过这里，所以我知道他们现在有很多工作，但真的没有人会来问我们是否需要帮助。 感谢你抽出时间与我们交谈，祝你清理工作一切顺利。谢谢，詹米，我要回去工作了。 我们从博洛尼亚南部的巴塔金诺迪佐卡小镇的亲戚家中与Nicolau Santoro交谈，并将这种批评放到后面运行埃米利亚罗马涅大区的政党。
The bodies are still being found in a forest in southern Kenya, where members of a starvation doomsday cult lived and died. The bodies of 227 people, mainly women and children, have been exhumed so far, but hundreds are still missing, possible victims of what is being called the Shakahola Forest Massacre. They belonged to a cult whose leader Paul McKenzie allegedly told his followers that they would see Jesus if they starved themselves to death. He was allowed to continue preaching, despite arousing suspicions, indeed, despite being arrested on several occasions. The Kenyan government has launched an investigation into the case and another into the wider problem of cult membership.
目前，在肯尼亚南部一片森林里仍然发现尸体，这里曾经是一群饥饿时代末日教派成员居住和死亡的地方。迄今已经挖掘出了227具尸体，其中大部分是妇女和儿童，但仍有数百人失踪，可能成为所谓的夏卡霍拉森林大屠杀的受害者。他们属于一个教派，其领袖保罗·麦肯齐据称告诉他的追随者，只有当他们饿死后才能看见耶稣。尽管引起怀疑，甚至多次被逮捕，但他仍然被允许继续传教。肯尼亚政府已经对此事展开调查，同时还对教派成员问题展开了更广泛的调查。
The BBC's Barbara Platt Asher has been to the Shakahola Forest area, and she sent this report. We're on our way now to visit a woman who escaped from the forest with her five children, and she lives quite far off the main road, so we're now having to navigate along narrow lanes next to cornfields and also gullies that have been half washed out with rain. Salama lives in a cluster of small mud huts, the space between them is filled with children and farm animals. She's cooking food for her family just a few months ago, that would have been considered a sin. Salama rescued her children from a Christian doomsday cult. She introduces them one by one. She was told they must starve so they could see Jesus. If she hadn't escaped, they would be dead. When the child cries or asks for food, water, we were told to take a cane and beat them, so they could go and eat in heaven. So I thought about it and I said I cannot go along with this, and I can't eat while my child is starving. But how come so many parents could? Salama asked many questions about the meaning of the deaths all around her. We would gather every Saturday and the pastor would tell us the word was coming to an end. He said we should fast and die because if we delayed heaven would be full. But when I was fasting, God spoke to me. He told me this wasn't his will.
BBC的芭芭拉·普拉特·阿舍尔去了沙卡霍拉森林区，并发回了这份报道。我们现在正在前往一名从森林中逃脱、带着她的五个孩子生活在远离主干道的地方的妇女家中，所以我们现在必须在狭窄的田间小路旁穿行，同时穿过被雨水冲刷得有些损毁的水沟。Salama住在一群小泥屋中，它们之间的空间被孩子和牲畜填满了。只是几个月前，她做饭给家人吃，而那在当时被看作是一种罪过。Salama从一个基督教末世邪教中拯救出了她的孩子们。她逐个介绍着他们。她被告知孩子们必须忍饥挨饿才能看到耶稣。如果她没有逃脱，他们可能已经死了。当孩子哭或者请求食物、水时，我们被告知要拿根藤条打他们，这样他们才能在天堂里吃饭。所以我想了想，我说我不能赞同这个，我也不能在我的孩子挨饿的时候吃饭。但是为什么会有这么多父母会同意呢？Salama对她周围所有死亡的意义提出了许多问题。每个星期六，我们会聚集在一起，牧师会告诉我们世界即将毁灭。他说我们应该禁食并死亡，因为如果我们拖延，天堂就会满了。但是当我在禁食的时候，上帝和我说话了。他告诉我这不是他的旨意。
Salama and hundreds of others had moved to the Shakaholy Forest, invited by their pastor. He sold them plots in what he called a new holy land. Now it's a crime scene. Gravediggers are unearthing hundreds of bodies as grizzly details emerge. Survivors say there was an order of death. Children went first, but not the pastor's children, and he went last. Some of the bodies loaded onto the trucks show signs of strangulation or suffocation. Police say those who resisted appear to have been beaten, even killed, but dozens have been found alive. My name is Victor Kaudo, the executive director Malindi Social Justice Center. Victor has been helping the survivors, but not all of them wanted to be rescued. Some truly believed this was the way to heaven. Like an emaciated elderly woman he shows me in a video. It's one of the women that we addressed you that day. She's calling on Jesus to come and help her because these people are taking me to the devil. These people are evil. Is she alive? She's still alive, but yesterday she then decided not to take her meals. She says it wants to start fasting again. Do you think she and others are saying they want to fast again out of their own will or do you think that someone is convincing them? There were two people who are convincing them. They were part of that militia that Mackenzie had. So after identifying them, we had to isolate them from those two people.
Salama和其他数百人被牧师邀请到Shakaholy Forest定居，他在那里卖给他们所谓的新圣地的土地。现在这里是一片犯罪现场。挖坟人员正在发掘数百具尸体，令人作呕的细节逐渐浮出水面。幸存者称这里有一种死亡命令。首先死去的是儿童，但不包括牧师的孩子，而他是最后一个死去的人。一些装在卡车上的尸体显示出勒颈或窒息的迹象。警方表示那些反抗的人似乎被殴打甚至被杀害，但也有几十人被发现还活着。我是维克托·考多(Victor Kaudo)，马林迪社会正义中心的执行主任。维克托一直在帮助幸存者，但并不是所有人都想被救援。一些人真的相信这是通向天堂的方式。就像他在视频中展示的一个面黄肌瘦的老年妇女，她是我们那天说过的女人之一。她在呼喊耶稣来帮助她，因为这些人正把她带往魔鬼那里。这些人是邪恶的。她还活着吗？她还活着，但昨天她决定不吃饭了。她说她想重新开始禁食。你觉得她和其他人是自愿要再次禁食的还是有人说服了她们？有两个人说服了她们。他们是那个麦肯齐所在的民兵组织的一部分。所以在确认他们的身份后，我们必须将他们与这些人隔离开来。
The man accused of ordering mass suicide is Pastor Paul Mackenzie. I don't do it. Yes, please. Praise Jesus. He shouts as he leaves the police station for a court hearing. He denies any guilt, but he's been tried before on charges of radicalization. So he was known to the authorities. I asked the regional police commissioner, Rota Anyantcha, about that. Why was this allowed to go on for so long? He was known before he moved to Shakahola. He was born and he was taken to court three times. And even now we have an active case in court. But in the evening, this is a matter that has come up now in the matter that we are underliect, in the matter that is under investigation. Thank you. There's a public inquiry and a shake-up in the local security services. But hundreds of people are still missing. Urbana's Kialo is outside the local morgue and has just given a DNA sample to the Red Cross to help in the search for his brother's family. They are lively, lively kids. The boy loves me very much. He just learned of them. You still have hope that they might come running to you? The horror, the sheer scale of it, has settled deeply into this community and traveled far beyond it. The agonizing question still is how this could have happened. That was Barbara Platarsha reporting.
这个人被指控下令进行大规模自杀，他叫做保罗·麦肯齐牧师。当他离开警察局准备出庭时大喊：“我没干过！”“是的，请赞美耶稣。”他否认任何罪行，但他之前曾因激进主义被起诉过。所以他已经为当局所知。我询问了地区警察专员罗塔·安扎查关于这个问题。为什么这个问题会持续这么长时间？他在搬到Shakahola之前就已知道了。他出生后就被起诉了三次。甚至现在我们还在法庭上处理一起案件。但晚上，在我们正在调查的问题中，这是一个新的观点。谢谢。现在出现了公开调查和地方安全服务的改革。但仍有成百上千的人失踪。乌班纳斯·基亚洛（Urbana's Kialo）在当地太平间外，刚刚提供了一份DNA样本给红十字会，以协助寻找他兄弟家人。他们是活泼的孩子。男孩非常爱我。他刚得知这个消息。你仍然有希望他们会向你跑来吗？这场恐怖事件的规模已深深地影响了这个社区，并传播到了远处。令人痛苦的问题仍然是这是如何发生的。这是芭芭拉·普拉塔尔沙的报道。
Well, many questions raised by that, including why our religious cults so prevalent in Kenya. Later on in the program, we'll be putting that to the President of the Kenyan Psychiatric Association. Just remind if you miss any live editions of this program, you can always catch up with our podcast. We updated twice a day, seven days a week. Just look for BBC News and Podcast in your search engine. You're listening to News Hour from the BBC.
在这里引出了许多问题，包括为什么我们的宗教邪教在肯尼亚如此盛行。稍后在这个节目中，我们将向肯尼亚精神病学协会的会长提出这个问题。如果你错过了直播节目，可以随时通过我们的播客进行追赶。播客每天更新两次，每周七天。只需在搜索引擎中查找BBC新闻和播客即可。您正在收听BBC的新闻小时。
The conflict in Sudan hasn't taken long to settle into a familiar and violent pattern. Once again, today, airstrikes pounded parts of the Capitol Khartoum as the fighting between the Sudanese armed forces and the paramilitaries of the rapid support forces shows no sign of pausing. Nearly a thousand people are thought to have been killed and more than a million displaced with civilians caught in the middle. The conflict between two military factions, which is now in its second month, comes less than two years since a power-sharing agreement involving a civilian grouping called the forces of freedom and change and the military was snuffed out by a coup.
苏丹的冲突很快就进入了熟悉而暴力的模式。今天，空袭再次轰击苏丹首都喀土穆的部分地区，苏丹武装部队和快速支援部队的边境冲突毫无停顿迹象。据估计，近千人死亡，超过一百万人流离失所，平民卷入冲突之中。这场冲突已经进入第二个月，是两个军事派系之间的冲突，不到两年前，涉及一个被称为自由与变革力量的民间组织和军方的权力分享协议被政变所终结。
Amar Hamudah is spokesman for the central council of the forces of freedom and change, and he's currently in London. The situation is very sad and bad in Sudan, especially in Al-Janena, West Darfur. Waya is very close to being slaved into civil war because the clash there seems to be with the tribal view. So this is the ugly face of the war. And it's a war that's been lasting for several weeks. And any sense of who has the upper hand? Is it the army? Is it the rapid support forces? We're not talking about the upper hand, but we're talking about zones.
阿玛尔·哈穆达是自由和变革力量中央委员会的发言人，目前在伦敦。苏丹的局势非常悲惨和糟糕，特别是在西达尔富尔州的阿尔贾尼纳。那里的冲突似乎是基于部落观点的，导致维亚很快就会被卷入内战。这就是战争的丑陋面孔，已经持续了数周。谁占上风？是军队？还是快速支援部队？我们不是在讨论上风，而是在讨论区域。
Those who are controlling certain zones are responsible for what's going there in their area. So areas controlled by RSF, they are witnessing a wide range of bad stories of people who entered many houses and hospitals. Another they are saying that they have been hit by the air force. They are very afraid of having the plane going on and coming putting them under fire. So many things. What hopes in this context are there for a ceasefire? We hope so. We hope so. We are civilians. We should push for having number one, it's in fire.
在某些地区控制权的人对该地区发生的事情负有责任。因此，由RSF控制的区域，他们目睹了许多进入房屋和医院的不良事件。另外，他们称受到了空军的轰炸。他们非常害怕飞机继续飞行并将他们置于火力之下。有许多事情。在这种情况下，停火有什么希望吗？我们希望如此。我们是平民，我们应该推动实现停火。
Number two, having a political solution and a settlement. We hope that the negotiations in Jeddah with the efforts from Saudi Arabia and United States can come to an agreement. Yes, they have made an agreement on paper, but the fighting still escalated. And the talks in Jeddah, what are you hearing about? What is happening there? What's happening there? What kind of progress is being made? The talks in Jeddah of a kind which is with a very limited access for the media and other politicians, they wanted to succeed anyhow and we appreciate that. They said, yes, we have some faces to be done. First, we have to go for the humanitarian and medical issues, safe corridors, those kinds of things. Then we should go for the ceasefire phase. After that, we should come to solution with the participation of civilians.
第二点是通过政治解决和协商进行解决。我们希望在沙特阿拉伯和美国的努力下，吉达谈判可以达成协议。他们已经在纸上达成了协议，但是战斗仍在升级。关于吉达的谈判，你听到了什么？那里正在发生什么？有什么进展？吉达的谈判是一种非常有限制性的，媒体和其他政治人物无法进入，但是他们希望成功，我们表示赞赏。他们说，我们有一些任务需要完成。首先，我们要解决人道主义和医疗问题，需要安全通道等。然后，我们应该进入停火阶段。之后，我们应该让平民参与到解决方案中。
At that point, you would hope that the forces of freedom and change will be included in talks. Yes, of course, because the absence of civilians in general will left the area for the military voices. And then we should have, we will end up with something either the civil war or a long new dictatorship. So having the civilians on board may put an end for the upper hand for the military side. But as things stand, what is your understanding? Can aid get into the country? Can it get to the people who need it? They add there are many problems related to that one.
在那个时候，你会希望自由和变革的力量被纳入谈判。是的，当然，因为没有平民代表的话，军事力量就会占据主导。然后我们将不得不面临内战或长期的新独裁。因此，让平民代表加入可能会阻止军方占据上风。但就目前情况而言，你的了解是什么？援助能够进入该国吗？能够到达需要它的人吗？他们补充说这方面还存在许多问题。
Number one, distribution channels used by the government could not be neutral. This is very crucial issue. Another thing is related to security. If you took those kinds of aids and you put them in the right place, you cannot grant that armed people cannot take it from that place. So it's not only about the safe corridors, it's also about having protection for these blires and medical aids. That was Amar Hamuda from Sudan's forces of freedom and change.
第一，政府所使用的分销渠道不能保持中立。这是非常关键的问题。另一件事与安全有关。如果你将这些援助品放在正确的地方，你不能保证武装人员不能从那个地方拿走它。因此，不仅仅是安全通道的问题，也涉及到对这些医疗物资的保护。这是来自苏丹自由和变革力量的阿玛尔·哈穆达所说的。
He started his career as school teacher Gordon Sumner. But it wasn't long before he changed his name to Sting and became one of the world's most successful musicians. He was of course the lead singer of the police in the 1970s and 80s. They had hits like message in a bottle every breath you take. And the school teacher themed don't stand so close to me. He later of course became a solo star rations and Englishman in New York among his best known songs. Today, Sting joins the likes of Elton John and Paul McCartney in becoming just one of a handful of fellows of the Ivan Avello songwriting academy here in London. And ahead of that ceremony, he spoke to the BBC's Mark Savage.
他以学校教师戈登·萨姆纳的身份开始了自己的职业生涯。但是很快，他改名为“斯汀”（Sting），成为了世界上最成功的音乐家之一。他当然是20世纪70年代和80年代警察乐队的主唱，在那个时期他们演唱了《瓶中信》、《每一次呼吸》等热门歌曲，以及“学校教师”为主题的《不要离我太近》。后来，斯汀成为了一位独奏歌星，他的代表作包括《英国人在纽约》等著名歌曲。今天，斯汀成为了伦敦艾文洛（Ivan Avello）创作学院的几位院士之一，加入了埃尔顿·约翰（Elton John）和保罗·麦卡特尼（Paul McCartney）的行列。在授予仪式前，他接受了BBC的马克·萨维奇的采访。
We are here because you're being given the fellowship of the Ivan Avello's academy. Now, if people who don't know what that is, explain why that's so important. It sounds a bit like Lord of the Rings doesn't have a fellowship.
我们在这里是因为你被授予伊万·艾弗洛学院的奖学金。如果有人不知道那是什么，解释一下为什么这非常重要。它听起来有点像《指环王》里的团队。
It's very meaningful to me because that's what I put on my passport. What am I? I'm a songwriter. That's my profession and it's a profession I'm very proud of. The first hit song you had was Roxanne. Do you remember listening to the chart kind done on Radio One the week that went into it?
这对我来说非常有意义，因为那是我放在护照上的职业。我是一位歌曲创作人，这是我非常自豪的职业。你的第一首热门歌曲是《Roxanne》。你还记得听过这首歌进入榜单时在Radio One上播放的排行榜吗？
Yeah, I was in my kitchen in Beiswater on a plank on top of the ladder, painting the ceiling with some white emulsion and I had Radio One on and I suddenly recognized this song. It's Roxanne and I literally fell off the ladder. They immediately called the other guys the band. They were on the radio there. They were listening to but nothing will ever beat that first you know time you hear it yourself on the radio. That is incredible.
是的，当时我正站在梯子上的一个木板上在我的Beiswater厨房里，使用一些白色乳化液来刷天花板，电台里播放着Radio One，突然听到了这首歌，是《Roxanne》，我简直从梯子上摔了下来。我马上给乐队的其他人打了电话，他们也在电台收听。虽然我们在电台听到过这首歌，但没有任何事情能比自己第一次在电台收听时的感受更棒了。这太不可思议了。
And then you write what is I think the most played Radio Song of all time.
然后你写下了我认为是有史以来最受欢迎的广播歌曲。意思是说你写下你认为是历史上播放量最高的广播歌曲。
Well that's interesting. It was in 1982 in the In Fleming's house. The In Fleming's desk was there and at night I would sit and try and write songs. I think the song of a spirit of James Bond in this song because it's so ambiguous you know it's it's a love song but it's also quite sinister. And tell me about Fields of Gold because that's a song Paul McCartney said he wished he'd written.
那真是有趣。那是在1982年在英弗莱明的房子里。英弗莱明的写字桌在那里，晚上我会坐在那里尝试写歌。我认为这首歌中有一种詹姆斯·邦德的精神，因为它非常模糊，你知道它是一首爱情歌曲，但也相当阴险。告诉我关于金色田野，因为保罗·麦卡特尼说他希望他写过那首歌。
Well there I can't tell you how many Paul McCartney songs I wish I'd written. The process of songwriting is kind of mysterious. To this day I'm not quite sure I understand it. I'm very happy when it comes but there's no formula. My satisfaction of finishing a song lasts about 20 minutes and then I get anxious about where the next song is coming from. I think there's been I guess what you could call convincing facsimiles of music. What's your take on that?
我无法告诉你我希望自己写了多少保罗·麦卡特尼的歌曲。创作歌曲的过程有点神秘，即使到今天我也不太确定我是否理解了它。当灵感来临时，我感到非常高兴，但它没有固定的方法。我完成一首歌曲的满足感只能持续20分钟左右，然后我就会担心下一首歌从哪里来。我认为这个世界上有许多音乐的相似之处。你对此有何看法？
It's similar to the way I watch a movie with CGI. It doesn't impress me at all. I get immediately bored when I see a computer generated image. I imagine I will feel the same way about AI making music. I think maybe for electronic dance music it works but for songs you know expressing emotions I don't think I will be moved by it. And that was Sting in conversation with the BBC's Mark Savage just ahead of collecting his fellowship of the Ivan novello songwriting academy here in London.
这就像我观看CGI动画电影的方式一样。它并没有给我留下深刻的印象。当我看到计算机生成的图像时，我会立刻感到无聊。我想，对于由人工智能制作的音乐，我也会有同样的感觉。我认为，对于电子舞曲来说，这种方式或许会奏效，但对于那些可以表达情感的歌曲，我不认为它会感动我。这是斯汀（Sting）在伦敦接受BBC记者马克·萨维奇（Mark Savage）采访之前，收集伊凡·诺维洛（Ivan Novello）歌曲创作学院的奖学金的谈话记录。
You're listening to the BBC World Service and this is news hour coming to you live from our studios in central London with me James Camara Samy. Now do you ever argue with your partner about who does the most chores around the home are the men in your household not pulling their weight compared to the women? Well if the answer to those questions is yes you may want to take some inspiration from Spain. The country's equality ministry says it will launch an app designed to monitor the sharing of housework.
您正在收听BBC World Service，我是詹姆斯·卡马拉·萨米，我们现在正在从伦敦市中心的演播室向您直播新闻时段。现在，您是否会与配偶争论家务活分配的问题，男性是否没有像女性那样分担家务负担？如果答案是肯定的话，您可能需要从西班牙汲取一些灵感。该国的平等部门表示，他们将推出一款旨在监控家务劳动分配的应用程序。
So how will that work? News hours James Menendez has been speaking to Melissa Kitson. She's a journalist at the English language edition of the newspaper L-Pace in Madrid. The equality ministry says it wants to create an app that will work similar to apps which track how much you've spent on a holiday for instance. So if someone spent X amount of dollars on the accommodation or on other travel expenses to create a similar division in terms of who's done the washing up and how many hours you spent with cooking. The voices said that the app will include push notifications so that could mean that if someone's falling behind they'll get a little notification warning them to this day game.
那么这个怎么工作呢？新闻时段的詹姆斯·梅南德兹正在采访马德里英语版报纸L-Pace的记者梅丽莎·基特森。平等部表示，他们想要创建一个类似于追踪您度假支出的应用程序。如果某人在住宿或其他旅行费用上花费了X美元，就会在洗碗和烹饪时间上创造类似的分配。报道称该应用程序将包括推送通知，这意味着如果某人落后，他们将收到一个小提示通知他们赶上来。
So but does it require the couple assuming it's a couple to enter the information about how much they've done them rather than the app sort of watching you around the home?
所以，这是否需要情侣输入有多少次进行了而不是应用程序在家中观察你？
Yes, I mean this as opposed to the loophole. It is a self-reporting system, so the app is not what you knew. You do need to be honest about how many hours you are dedicating to your household chores. Yes, I can see a flaw here. What's been the reaction to this news in Spain? The reaction has been generally negative, I would say. Some have complained that it's a waste of money.
是的，我是指与漏洞相对的这个系统。这是一个自我报告的系统，所以这个应用程序不是你以前认识的那个应用程序。你需要诚实地报告你花多少时间做家务。是的，我可以看到这里存在一个漏洞。西班牙对这个消息的反应如何？我会说反应普遍是负面的。一些人抱怨这是浪费金钱。
The app is going to cost just over 210,000 euros to make. Others say that the government is sort of meddling with people's lives. They're trying to say to families how much time they should be spending, and others say look, you know gender equality is a problem. This is an issue, but an app is not necessarily the best way to solve it. Right, here comes the personal stuff.
这个应用程序将花费超过210,000欧元的制作费用。其他人说政府有点干涉人们的生活。他们试图告诉家庭应该花多少时间在一起，而其他人则认为，你知道性别平等是一个问题。这是一个问题，但是一个应用程序不一定是解决它的最好方法。好了，个人私人话题来了。
I think your partner is called Juan, isn't he? He's obviously not here to defend himself, but who does the most in terms of housework in your home? It's tricky, but I mean to say it's fairly even, although I do feel like I do the worst chores. So, for instance, Juan does the cooking and I do the washing up, we would say, and I perhaps do sort of more of the everyday cleaning where he would do sort of the bigger projects that they you know the cleaning of the all the windows and you're reorganising the cabinets that doesn't happen quite as often as big as the day-to-day cleaning.
我想你的伴侣叫胡安，是吗？他显然不在这里为自己辩护，但在你们家庭中，谁做最多的家务？这很棘手，但我想说的是相当公平，虽然我觉得我做的最差的家务。例如，Juan做饭，我洗碗，我可能更多地做日常清洁，而他会做较大的项目，例如清洗所有窗户和重新组织橱柜，这种情况并不像日常清洁那样经常发生。
Right, so that's interesting, so actually, if you know, and that might be quite useful because then you could total up the time taken because it's quite hard to keep track of those sort of occasional blitzes of cleaning, isn't it, and how much it actually contributes? Yes, it's we'll be a tricky one for us. Also, you know, one of his favourite gadgets is the robot back-in cleaner so I'm not sure if that will count, you know if you're not actually doing the work of self-reflecting. It definitely doesn't count. It definitely doesn't count. And that was Melissa Kitson from the newspaper El Pace in Madrid speaking to James Menendez about the app from Spain's equality and well about her own domestic arrangements as well.
这段话讲的是一个女人使用西班牙平等与福利团队开发的app来记录家务时间，并且确切地知道哪些家务活动占用了最多的时间。她还提到难以记录这些偶尔冲刺式的清洁活动，以及她丈夫最喜欢的机器人吸尘器是否算作自我反省的工作。最后，她介绍了自己身为马德里El Pace报的记者的身份。
You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is news hour, coming to you live from London with James Camarassami. Let's return now to our main story, the floods in northeastern Italy where 13 people have died after the Amelia Romagna region was deluged by the equivalent of six months of rainfall in just a couple of days. One local mayor has described it as the worst disaster there in a century. Thousands of people have been forced out of their homes after 20 rivers burst their banks.
大家好，你正在收听BBC世界服务的新闻小时节目，由詹姆斯·卡瑪拉薩米主持，我们现在回到主题，讲述意大利东北部的洪水。在艾米利亚-罗马涅区的短短几天内，相当于半年降雨量的雨水导致13人死亡。当地一名市长称这是该地区一个世纪以来最严重的灾难。20条河流都泛滥，导致数千人被迫离开家园。
Earlier on news hour, we heard from Nicolo Santoro who was cleaning out his in-laws' flooded house just south of the regional capital Bologna. He told me the authorities were still nowhere to be seen. When we arrived yesterday, everything was floating around because there was still water inside the house. It was still like one meter, and the water left was 40 centimeters of mud, and it was so difficult to walk around even. Now we are trying to clean everything. I really need to thank a lot of people in the neighbourhood which are really helping us a lot in this moment, but no one off from the state or the region is coming here to help us. So, I really, really want to thank these people who are helping us.
在新闻时段早些时候，我们听到了Nicolo Santoro的报道，他正在清理他岳父母位于博洛尼亚地区首府南部的被洪水淹没的房子。他告诉我当局仍然没有出现。当我们昨天到达时，一切都在漂浮，因为房子里还有水。水还有一米深，留下的水是40厘米的泥巴，走起来很困难。现在我们正在努力清理一切。我真的需要感谢邻居中那些在这个时候真正帮助我们的人，但是没有国家或地区的人来帮助我们。因此，我真的非常感谢这些帮助我们的人。
Why did you have to do it yourselves? Because no one came here to ask us if we needed hands to clean that or on the mind of the river. The government in Rome is led by Georgia Maloney of the right-wing Brothers of Italy party, but the region of Amelia Romagna is a left-wing bastion. The regional government is run by the Democratic Party or PD. All the parties recently elected national leader is the MP Ellie Schlein who was previously vice president of the Amelia Romagna region, and she told me first about the situation on the ground.
你们为什么要自己动手呢？因为没有人来问我们是否需要帮手来清理河流或者道路。罗马的政府由右翼的意大利兄弟党的Georgia Maloney领导，但阿梅利亚·罗马涅的地区是左翼的堡垒。该地区的政府由民主党或PD运营。所有的政党最近选举的国家领袖是议员Ellie Schlein，她曾担任过阿梅利亚·罗马涅地区的副主席，并且首先告诉我现场的情况。
It's a dramatic situation. It's devastating extreme events never seen before in history. There are more than 10,000 people out of their homes and more than 30,000 without electricity. The scale is bigger than on previous occasions, but they have been extreme weather events, have they're not just a couple of years ago, for example. There was one. I think when you were still vice president there so people will have not been taken completely by surprise by the fact of it even if the scale of it was much bigger.
这是一个戏剧性的局面，是历史上从未见过的毁灭性极端事件。有超过10,000人无家可归，超过30,000人没有电力供应。与以往相比，规模更大，但这些极端天气事件并非只在几年前才出现。例如，当您还是副总统时就发生过一次。因此，即使规模更大，人们也不会完全被这一事实吓到。
Yes and Italy is a particularly fragile country in terms of hydrological risks. Which does beg the question and we've spoken to at least one local resident who said look more should have been done to prepare the region for this eventuality. Is that not a fair thing for people in that region to feel given that it has happened before?
意思是，意大利在水文风险方面是一个尤其脆弱的国家。这引出了一个问题，我们已经和至少一名当地居民谈过，他表示应该为这种情况做更多准备。考虑到这曾经发生过，难道这不是该地区的居民应该有的正当感受吗？
Well it's obviously a problem of the whole system I have to say because we live in a country that has never really dealt with hydrological risks. It's true that all the institutions should work together to find the necessary resources. But who is responsible? You've said there that the risks have not been dealt with ahead of time. Who is responsible for that? Where does the ultimate responsibility lie? Do you think?
我必须说，这显然是整个系统的问题，因为我们生活在一个从未真正应对水文风险的国家。所有机构都应该共同努力找到必要的资源。但谁来负责呢？你刚才说风险没有提前得到处理。谁对此负有最终责任？你认为呢？
Well I have to say it's mainly a problem of lack of funds and I have to say all the institutional level have to do more in this direction but I cannot say that it's one particular level responsible because only the regional levels would hardly be in condition to find the necessary resources for very expensive interventions like these. Will you partly hold your hand up and your party is in control of the region as I said you used to be vice president. Would you hold your hand up and say yes we were in part responsible?
我必须说，这主要是缺乏资金的问题，所有制度层面都必须更加努力。但我不能说这是单一层面的责任，因为只有地区层面几乎不可能找到必要的资源来进行非常昂贵的干预。您是否会承认，在您的党派掌控该地区时，您有一定责任吗？我知道您曾担任过副总统。您是否会承认我们部分有责任？
Well I think that hold the political scope is responsible for not addressing enough climate changes itself. We have to do obviously more in terms of resources but it's very hard to point the finger at one or the other because it's a problem of the system Italy I would say.
我认为政治层面对应对气候变化的不足负有责任。显然，我们需要在资源方面做更多努力，但是很难把责任归咎于某个个人或组织，因为这是意大利体制问题。
Yes and people there again people we've spoken to who have directly affected say look we have had to do some of this adaptation ourselves. They said that they actually built up the embankment. We spoke to one man clearing out his in-laws house near Bologna said in the last couple of years the local people had to try and do some of this adaptation and that feels wrong doesn't it?
是的，我们与直接受到影响的人们再次交谈时，他们说：“看，我们不得不自己进行一些适应。” 他们说他们实际上筑起了堤坝。我们与在博洛尼亚附近清理亲戚房屋的男子交谈时，他说在过去几年里，当地人们不得不尝试做出一些适应，这感觉不对，对吧？
Well for sure and there's a problem also of clarifying the legislative framework to intervene. Too many competences are mixed up and it's difficult then to understand where the responsibility lies. So I would say together with finding the necessary resources and we said today now it's the time to have all the institutional working together it's time for a national unity and we are open to help.
当然，有一个问题要解决，即澄清干预的立法框架。太多的职权混淆了，这样就很难理解责任在哪里。因此，我会说，除了找到必要的资源之外，今天我们说了，现在是所有机构一起工作的时候了，是国家团结的时候了，我们愿意提供帮助。
Can you say with confidence then that if this happens again in the next couple of years roads will be ready that the system will have worked will this be a moment when the Italian system comes to terms with this?
你是否可以有信心地说，在接下来的几年中，如果这种情况再次发生，意大利的道路系统将做好准备，系统将会运转正常，这将是意大利体系能够面对这种情况的时刻吗？
I hope so and we will work in this direction even being at the opposition of the national government. We will try to convince also the national government that it's high time. But on a local level where you do have power I mean this is very specifically the region where you do have power.
我希望如此，我们会朝着这个方向努力，即使与国家政府站在对立面。我们也会试图说服国家政府，认识到这已经是时候了。但在地方层面上，你确实具有权力，特别是在你有权力的这个地区。
Yes for sure also the regional will make it spark and to try to continue to prepare the country because climate change is not going away. And just one final question on what is happening now again we have spoken to a local resident who said the authorities are not on the scene given that it's your party that is the regional head why is that happening?
当然会的，地方层面也会让它闪耀，继续为该国做好准备，因为气候变化不会消失。最后再问一个问题，我们再次与一位当地居民交谈，他说当局并不在现场，考虑到这是您的党派是地区领袖，为什么会发生这种情况？
No I mean I have different information on this side I mean I know that there are more than 700 people including the local authorities and the system of civil protection by the region and I think everybody is doing the best they can to intervene and I think that there is a good cooperation at the moment between regional local and national authorities. That was Ellie's kind the leader of Italy's democratic party the party which governs the Emilia Romagna region which is the worst hit by the recent floods.
我的意思是，我这边有不同的信息。我的意思是，我知道包括当地政府和民防系统在内，共有700多人，并且我认为每个人都尽力干预。目前，我认为地区、地方和国家当局之间的合作很好。这是埃莉(Ellie)所说的，她是意大利民主党的领袖，该党执政的艾米利亚-罗马涅大区是最受近期洪灾影响的地区之一。
Now let's return to a story we were reporting on earlier the 227 bodies recovered in a forest in Kenya and the allegation that a charismatic cult leader managed to convince people to starve themselves to death so they could meet Jesus he said to have told him that the end of the world was coming and they should be the first to go to heaven more than 600 other people are still missing.
现在我们回到早先报导过的故事，肯尼亚森林中找到了227具尸体，有传言称这是由于一个具有感召力的邪教领袖说服信徒们自我饿死以与耶稣相会。他说耶稣告诉他世界末日即将来临，他们应该第一个走向天堂。目前还有600多人失踪。
So how does that sort of thing happen what would make people want to starve themselves to death? Well there are two inquiries underway in Kenya to try and get to the bottom of those questions one man who's been thinking about those questions is Dr Bonifastia Tye the president of the Kenyan Psychiatric Association I asked him what are people saying about this in Kenya?
那么，这种事情是怎么发生的呢？是什么让人们想要饿死自己呢？肯尼亚正在进行两项调查，以解决这些问题。其中一个在思考这些问题的人是肯尼亚精神病学协会主席Bonifastia Tye博士。我问他，肯尼亚人对此有何看法？
This case has been horrifying to everybody and there's been a lot of conversations and questions about what may have led to this tragic incident in Kenya it is common for people to seek help from religious leaders large numbers of Kenyans usually will seek spiritual intervention for their diseases and for issues of poverty a lot of this conversation about why such a large number of people may have found themselves in this tragic situation boils down in my opinion to the hopelessness that is associated with poverty and disease. Why do they turn to religious leaders and not health professionals mental health professionals such as yourself why why to religious leaders or cult leaders?
这个案件令每个人都感到震惊，许多人开始讨论和质疑是什么导致肯尼亚发生了这场悲剧性的事件。在肯尼亚，人们通常会向宗教领袖寻求帮助，大量的肯尼亚人通常会寻求灵性干预来治疗他们的疾病和贫困问题。在我看来，这种大量人们陷入悲剧局面的原因，主要源于贫困和疾病所带来的绝望。为什么他们会去找宗教或邪教领袖寻求帮助，而不是像您这样的心理健康专业人士呢？为什么他们要去找宗教或邪教领袖呢？
You find these religious leaders writing themselves as having these magical powers to turn people's fortunes around which which it's a lie but also you find that you have dysfunctional health systems. So where you have these functional health systems people with chronic conditions will usually turn to these religious leaders for for mirror calls. We have cases where people live hospitals to go and seek prayers because they have chronic illnesses. No this lie is also spread very fast in news about a preacher who is able to perform mirror calls is spread very fast and you'll find people flocking to them.
你会发现一些宗教领袖自称拥有神秘的力量，可以改变人们的命运，但这是谎言。同时，你也会发现你的健康系统存在着功能紊乱。在一些正常运转的健康系统中，患有慢性病的人通常会转向这些宗教领袖进行医疗。我们有些案例表明，因为患有慢性病，人们会离开医院去寻求祈祷。这种谎言也会在关于牧师能够进行治愈的新闻中迅速传播开来，人们会蜂拥前往。
And this case obviously is particularly horrific but in terms of the numbers of cults you say it's prevalent it's very prevalent and the people who follow these kind of leaders find themselves being exploited. The practice of cultism you know and sex is common across African countries you find that a lot of these preachers will also theoretically flound their wealth a lot of them you know appear to be doing very well probably from the offerings of the followers in that process there is visible abuse so there are many videos that circulate even on social media where preachers are physically and verbally abusing their followers and then so also financial abuse informs of contributions and in the extreme cases like what you are seeing in Kilefi where people are advised to sell their earthly possessions and follow this preacher so there are cases where people are also locked up in confined spaces some of them seek and there's a whole spectrum of exploitation of followers of these preachers.
这个案件显然特别恐怖，但就邪教的数量而言，它是相当普遍的，跟随这些领袖的人发现自己被利用。邪教和性的实践在非洲国家是常见的，你会发现很多这样的牧师会理论上挥霍他们的财富，他们中的大多数看起来都生活得很好，可能是从追随者的供奉中得来的。在这个过程中，存在着明显的虐待，因此有许多视频在社交媒体上流传，牧师们在肉体上和言语上虐待他们的追随者，还有金融领域的滥用，例如利用追随者的捐款。在极端情况下，比如在基勒菲所看到的那样，人们被建议出售他们的世俗财产并追随这位牧师，而有些人被关在狭小的空间里，有些人会寻求帮助，追随这些牧师的人存在各种各样的剥削。
But what about this ultimate and very extreme aspect of this case where people were told not to eat that if they starved themselves to death they would meet Jesus. In your view what would make someone want to believe that? This is an extremely, an extremely tragic case and investigations are ongoing and we will hopefully establish the reasons why this should happen but in psychology it's not impossible it is extremely possible for someone to act in putting such a setting. Number one when your other charismatic leader when your other charismatic leader who assumes control of a group where there is elements of conformity and obedience within the group where it is very difficult to raise an objection to questionable instructions it can be very possible to have a group of people of sound mind a preacher of sound mind and people of sound mind engaging in an activity that can end up tragically and in death it has to be an extreme form of unfortunate group dynamics playing around conformity and obedience for someone to get to that level but it is possible.
但是，在这种案件的最极端和最极端的方面中，人们被告知如果他们饿死了，就会遇见耶稣，他们被告知不要吃那个东西。在您看来，是什么促使某人相信这一点？这是一个非常非常悲惨的案件，调查仍在进行中，我们希望能够查明这种情况发生的原因，但是在心理学上，有可能有人会在这种情况下采取这样的设置。首先，当另一个有魅力的领袖接管一个存在顺从和服从因素的团体时，很难对可疑的指示提出反对意见，这时有一个由心智健康的人、有思想的传教士和有思想的人组成的群体参与一种可能会以悲剧和死亡结束的活动，需要极端形式的不幸的群体动力学才能使某人达到这个水平，但这是有可能的。
You are saying if I understand correctly that you can be of sound mind and believe that starving yourself to death to meet Jesus is a reasonable thing to do. I mean have you met people who have been in cults yourself have you spoken to them on a professional level and and found them to be of sound mind? It is known that people of sound mind once in a group where there is a charismatic leader it becomes very difficult to question because a human being is often persuaded to conform when they are in a group and to obey the leader. Reflections of Dr Boniface Chitai, president of the Kenyan Psychiatric Association.
您的意思是，如果我理解正确的话，您可以保持头脑清醒，并相信为了与耶稣相会而自饿致死是一件合理的事情。我的意思是，您是否曾经自己遇到过那些加入邪教的人，是否曾经在专业层面上与他们交谈，并发现他们头脑清醒？众所周知，一旦一个头脑清醒的人加入到有一个有吸引力的领袖的群体中，很难对其进行质疑，因为一个人通常会在一个群体中被说服去顺从领袖进行调和。这是肯尼亚精神病学协会主席Boniface Chitai博士的反思。
You are listening to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. For more than a year people in El Salvador have been living in a state of exception that's the name of an emergency measure designed to tackle powerful street gangs and it's seen certain constitutional rights being suspended. The police have been granted wide ranging powers of detention and more than 65,000 people have been arrested.
您正在收听BBC世界服务的《新闻时报》。一年多来，萨尔瓦多的人民一直生活在“例外状态”中，这是一种旨在解决强大的街头帮派问题的紧急措施，已经暂停了某些宪法权利。警方被赋予了广泛的拘留权力，有超过65,000人被逮捕。
Now while the crackdown has seen El Salvador's murder rate plummet, human rights organisations say that thousands of people with no link to the gangs have been unjustly detained and their relatives are now demanding their immediate release. From El Salvador, Will Grant reports.
现在，虽然镇压行动使得萨尔瓦多的谋杀率急剧下降，但人权组织认为，无数与帮派无关的人被不公正地拘留，他们的亲属现在要求他们立即释放。来自萨尔瓦多的威尔·格兰特报道。
The sprawling municipality of Soyobango was once a battleground for rival street gangs. The decades of victims bodies were dumped in ditches and on road sides, in streams and wasteland all over the notoriously dangerous district of San Salvador.
索约邦戈这个广阔的市政所曾经是街头帮派的战场。在圣萨尔瓦多这个声名狼藉的危险区域里，几十年来，受害者的尸体被倾倒在沟渠、路边、小溪和荒地上。
Today though the sounds of war come from a joint police and military operation to reclaim gang-controlled neighbourhoods across the capital. It is quite a significant deployment. There's a good number of boots on the ground in this particular neighbourhood and as you can hear a helicopter flying overhead they've seen it day in day out in Soyobango for over a year. The sum troops carry out search warrants are the stop young men in the streets checking them for gang tattoos and pulling up their criminal records. The heavy-handed approach is controversial but has more than 90% support with the Salvadoran public, tired of the years of gang intimidation and extortion.
今天，战争的声音来自于一次联合警察和军队的行动，旨在收复首都掌控的帮派社区。这是一次相当重要的部署。在这个特定的社区中，有相当数量的部队在地面上执行任务，你们可以听到直升机在头顶飞过，这是在Soyobango已经持续了一年的情景。部队进行搜查令，对年轻男子在街上进行检查，查看是否有帮派纹身，并查看他们的犯罪记录。虽然这种高压手段引起了争议，但超过90%的萨尔瓦多公众支持这一举措，他们已经厌倦了多年的帮派恐吓和勒索。
Things were so bad here before so ugly said this local resident. If we went into the neighbourhood next to ours run by another gang you might never come back. Now we can calm and go as we please he adds. But while most Salvadorans applaud the ruthless new policy it hasn't brought peace to everyone. Thousands of people with no discernible link to the gangs have also been swept up in the dragnet of arrests far from the urban neighbourhoods of Soyobango in a rural village in Bajo Lema, a young tractor driver, Jose Duvalmata was among them.
当地居民说：“以前这里情况非常糟糕，非常丑陋。如果我们进入由另一个帮派控制的隔壁社区，你可能永远回不来了。”他补充说：“现在我们可以随心所欲地平静地去了。”然而，尽管大多数萨尔瓦多人赞同这种严厉的新政策，但它并没有为每个人带来和平。成千上万与帮派没有明显联系的人也被卷入了逮捕网中，远离苏约班戈和巴约勒马的城市社区，在巴约勒马的一个农村，年轻的拖拉机司机何塞·杜瓦尔马塔就是其中之一。
A year ago soldiers stopped him, took his telephone and he was accused of unlawful association, shorthand for gang membership. His mother Marcella hasn't seen or heard from him since and is sick with worry. You hear so many things that they are torturing them in there, they hit them. When my son was imprisoned I went to the jail and spent 80 days outside with a crowd of people and you would hear their cries coming from inside.
一年前，士兵们阻拦了他，拿走了他的电话，指控他非法结社，暗示他是黑帮成员。他的母亲马塞拉此后没再见过或听过他的消息，一直对他担心得病了。听说在里面他们在折磨着他们，打他们。当我的儿子被监禁时，我去了监狱外面，和一群人一起呆了80天，你可以听到他们从里面传来的哭声。
Help us, help. I can't take anymore. That caused me so much pain in my heart, my poor son. Marcella says that her son's only trial was a mass hearing with 360 other inmates in which they were all sentenced to an initial six months in prison. Before the trial Marcella was advised to bring a stack of documents from his clean criminal record to his high school diploma which are tested to his innocence. The court ignored them all. Jose Duval is far from the only one in that situation. On the year anniversary of the state of exception hundreds of families gathered in the centre of San Salvador to demand the immediate release of their relatives, who they say were arbitrarily detained without calls.
请帮助我们，我们无法再忍受了。这给我的心灵造成了极大的痛苦，我的可怜儿子。马塞拉说，她儿子唯一的审判是与360名其他囚犯一起进行的大规模听证会，他们被判入狱六个月。在审判前，马塞拉被建议带来一大堆文件，包括他的无罪犯罪记录和高中文凭。但法院却忽略了它们。何塞·杜瓦尔远非唯一处于这种情况的人。在国家进入紧急状态的一周年纪念日，数百个家庭聚集在圣萨尔瓦多市中心，要求立即释放他们的亲属，他们说这些人是被任意拘留而没有提前通知。
Undeterred by the criticism the government of President Bulkheiley has built a new supermax facility to house more than 40,000 people. The cutely aware of the boost the crackdown has given the administration at the polls the government's images of the new facility called SecCart were broadcast around the world. They showed Shaven headed in barefoot gang members being corralled into their cells at gunpoint. The perfect is enemy of the good. Like we are doing something really good, I appreciate by over 90% of the population in an exclusive interview. I spoke to the vice president of El Salvador Felix Ujua. He insisted the plan was working in terms of bringing peace to the country but admitted that thousands of those arrested had not committed any gang crimes. It could be when you have an operation of this size, we have so far a 65,000 person impression.
总统布尔克海利政府并不在意批评，他们已经建造了一座新的超级监狱，可容纳超过40,000人。政府意识到打击犯罪活动给他们在选举中带来的提升，于是向全世界播放了新设施SecCart的图片。照片中，剃光头的光脚帮派成员被枪口逼着走进自己的牢房。完美是敌人。在一次独家采访中，我和萨尔瓦多副总统费利克斯·乌茶谈到，九成以上的国民赞同政府的做法。他坚称，该计划从打击犯罪角度来看得到有效成果，但承认数千名被捕的人没有犯任何帮派罪行。这可能是由于这种规模的行动，到目前为止对65,000人进行了印象。
Probably could be some mistake and some people could be arrested with no link with the gangs. And thousands of people has been released. Over 3,000 person have been released because in the due process of law in court they prove that they have any links but they have gone and they were released. In Bajolema, Jose Duval's family visit the half finished home he was building when he was detained. His children are there, including the baby boy who was born after his arrest and who he's never seen. As his mother Marcella shows me around she explains that the bank is now threatening to repossess the home as they're struggling to keep up with the repayments.
可能会有一些错误，一些与黑帮无关的人可能会被逮捕。数千人已经被释放。超过3,000人已经被释放，因为在司法程序中他们证明了他们没有任何联系但他们已经被拘留和释放了。在Bajolema，Jose Duval的家人参观了他被拘留时正在建造的半成品房屋。他的孩子们在那里，包括在他被捕后出生并从未见过他的婴儿男孩。当他的母亲Marcella带我四处走动时，她解释说，银行现在威胁要收回房屋，因为他们难以跟上还款。
But worse than all that for Jose Duval is that there's no end in sight to his ordeal. In prison and branded a gang member by a government that won't accept any proof to the country. Will Grant reporting from El Salvador and we'll have more from Will tomorrow including some of the people who have benefited from the gang crackdown.
对于何塞·杜瓦尔来说，比所有这些更糟糕的是，他的苦难似乎没有尽头。在监狱中，政府已经认定他是一个帮派成员，而且不接受任何证据来证明他的清白。本文由威尔·格兰特报道，他在萨尔瓦多，明天我们将会报道更多，包括受到帮派打击的人民的故事。
And to end today a sign, a pretty strong sign that one of the great sporting careers may be nearing its end. Rafael Nadal, the Spanish tennis player, who's won 22 grand slam singles titles announced today that 2024 will probably be his final year on the circuit. My goal on my ambition is to try to stop to give myself an opportunity to enjoy next year. That's probably going to be my last year in a professional tournament. That's my idea even that I can't say 100% that's going to be like this because you never know what's what can happen. But my idea and my motivation is try to enjoy and try to say goodbye of all the tournaments that I have been important for me in my tennis career.
今天的消息结束了一段伟大的运动事业可能即将结束的迹象。西班牙网球选手拉斐尔·纳达尔宣布，他赢得了22个大满贯单打冠军，并表示2024年可能是他作为职业选手的最后一年。我的目标和野心是尝试给自己一个机会，让我可以享受明年。那可能是我在职业比赛中的最后一年。虽然我不能百分百地说就是这样，因为你永远不知道未来会发生什么。但我的想法和动力是尝试享受并告别我在网球生涯中很重要的所有比赛。
None more important I would guess than the French Open. He's won it 14 times, 14 of those 22 grand slams at the Roland-Garrel Stadium. And he announced today the 36th year-older because of a hip injury he'd be missing this year's French Open for the first time since his debut in 2005 or Carlos Alcarazam unexpected to soon take over the number one world ranking from Novak Djokovic tweeted, good luck Rafael, very painful and sad for everyone that you can't be at Roland-Garrel's or play more this year. But I hope that 2024 will be a great season for you and that you can say goodbye like the great champion you are real sense that the changing of the guard is possibly happening at the top of men's tennis.
我猜没有比法国公开赛更重要的了。他在罗兰·加洛斯球场赢得了14次冠军中的22次。他今天宣布因为髋部受伤而无法参加今年的法国公开赛，这是自2005年首次亮相以来的第一次。卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯（Carlos Alcaraz）可能意外地很快取代诺瓦克·德约科维奇成为世界排名第一，在推特上祝愿拉斐尔好运：“你不能参加罗兰·加洛斯公开赛或今年更多的比赛让每个人都感到痛苦和悲伤。但我希望2024年对你来说将是一个伟大的赛季，你可以像你是真正的伟大冠军一样告别。”男子网球的权力可能正在顶层发生真正的交替。
That brings us to an end of this edition of NewsHour from me James Gamarassami and the rest of the team here in London. Thanks very much for listening. Goodbye. NewsHour has been a download from the BBC to discover more and our terms of use visit bbc.com slash podcasts.
本期新闻时段的节目就到这里了，由我James Gamarassami和伦敦团队的其他成员为您播报。非常感谢您的收听，再见。NewsHour是BBC提供的下载节目，欲了解更多信息和使用条款，请访问bbc.com/podcasts。
In March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear power plant on the east coast of Japan was struck by a massive tsunami. It plunged Japan into the world's worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl. We are at the war and invisible enemy is trying to occupy Japan. Fukushima, an original seven-part audio drama from the BBC World Service telling the story of the heroes who fought to contain the disaster. Our job is clear to call the reactors. You'll be risking your life to save Japan. And of those living with its impact. I'm connected to the disaster. I'll never be able to separate myself from you.
2011年3月，日本东海岸的福岛核电站遭遇了一场极大的海啸袭击，这导致日本经历了自切尔诺贝利以来全球最严重的核灾难。我们正处于一场战争中，隐形的敌人试图占领日本。BBC世界服务推出了一部名为《福岛》的原创七部分音频剧，讲述了那些为控制此次灾难而奋战的英雄们的故事。我们的任务很清楚，就是要扼制反应堆，为了拯救日本，你们会冒着生命危险。而那些受到福岛核灾的影响的人们也在其中。我与这场灾难有关，我再也无法将自己与这一事件分开。
Search for Fukushima, review that your BBC podcasts.
搜索福岛相关的BBC播客，进行审核。