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Dr. Matthew MacDougall: Neuralink & Technologies to Enhance Human Brains | Huberman Lab Podcast

发布时间 2023-04-17 12:00:04    来源

摘要

In this episode, my guest is Matthew MacDougall, MD, the head neurosurgeon at Neuralink. Dr. MacDougall trained at the University of California, San Diego and Stanford University School of Medicine and is a world expert in brain stimulation, repair and augmentation. He explains Neuralink’s mission and projects to develop and use neural implant technologies and robotics to 1) restore normal movement to paralyzed patients and those with neurodegeneration-based movement disorders (e.g., Parkinson’s, Huntington’s Disease) and to repair malfunctions of deep brain circuitry (e.g., those involved in addiction). He also discusses Neuralink’s efforts to create novel brain-machine interfaces (BMI) that enhance human learning, cognition and communication as a means to accelerate human progress. Dr. MacDougall also explains other uses of bio-integrated machines in daily life; for instance, he implanted himself with a radio chip into his hand that allows him to open specific doors, collect and store data and communicate with machines and other objects in unique ways. Listeners will learn about brain health and function through the lens of neurosurgery, neurotechnology, clinical medicine and Neuralink’s bold and unique mission. Anyone interested in how the brain works and can be made to work better ought to derive value from this discussion. #HubermanLab #Neuroscience Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman HVMN: https://hvmn.com/huberman Levels: https://levels.link/huberman Thesis: https://takethesis.com/huberman InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/huberman Supplements from Momentous https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman Huberman Lab Social & Website Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://hubermanlab.com/neural-network Dr. Matthew MacDougall Clinical Practice: https://www.sutterhealth.org/find-doctor/dr-matthew-macdougall LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmmacdougall Twitter: https://twitter.com/matthewmacdoug4 The Institute: https://www.theinstitute.com/fellow/matthew-macdougall Neuralink Neuralink: https://neuralink.com Neuralink’s Patient Registry: https://neuralink.com/patient-registry Join Neuralink: https://neuralink.com/careers Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Matthew MacDougall 00:04:05 Sponsors: HVMN, Levels, Thesis 00:07:38 Brain Function & Injury; Brain Tumor Treatment 00:13:52 Frontal Lobe Filter; Sleep Deprivation 00:19:00 Neuroplasticity, Pharmacology & Machines 00:22:10 Neuralink, Neural Implants & Injury, Robotics & Surgery 00:31:05 Sponsor: AG1 (Athletic Greens) 00:32:20 Neocortex vs. Deep Brain 00:36:45 Decoding Brain Signals 00:42:08 “Confidence Test” & Electrical Stimulation; RFID Implants 00:51:33 Bluetooth Headphones & Electromagnetic Fields; Heat 00:57:43 Brain Augmentation & Paralysis 01:00:51 Sponsor: InsideTracker 01:02:09 Brain Implants & Peripheral Devices 01:12:44 Brain Machine Interface (BMI), Neurofeedback; Video Games 01:22:13 Improving Animal Experimentation, Pigs 01:33:18 Skull & Injury, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) 01:39:14 Brain Health, Alcohol 01:43:34 Neuroplasticity, Brain Lesions & Redundancy 01:47:32 Car Accidents & Driver Alertness 01:50:00 Future Possibilities in Brain Augmentation & BMI; Neuralink 01:58:56 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com The Huberman Lab podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user’s own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions.

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Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
欢迎来到Huberman实验室的播客，我们将讨论科学和为日常生活提供基于科学的工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。

Today my guest is Dr. Matthew McDougall. Dr. Matthew McDougall is the head neurosurgeon at NeuralLink. NeuralLink as a company whose goal is to develop technologies to overcome specific clinical challenges of the brain and nervous system, as well as to improve upon brain design, that is to improve the way that brains currently function by augmenting memory, by augmenting cognition, and by improving communication between humans and between machines and humans. These are all of course tremendous goals and NeuralLink is uniquely poised to accomplish these goals because they are approaching these challenges by combining both existing knowledge of brain function from the fields of neuroscience and neurosurgery with robotics, machine learning, computer science, and the development of novel devices in order to change the ways that human brains work for the better.
今天我有一个特别嘉宾，Matthew McDougall博士。Matthew McDougall博士是NeuralLink的首席神经外科医生。NeuralLink是一家旨在开发技术来克服大脑和神经系统的具体临床挑战并改善大脑设计的公司。他们的目标是通过增强记忆、增强认知和改善人类与机器之间的通信来改进大脑的功能方式。这些都是非常伟大的目标，NeuralLink独具优势实现这些目标，因为他们通过结合神经科学和神经外科的现有大脑功能知识，机器学习、计算机科学和新型设备的研发，来改变人类大脑的运作方式。

Today's conversation with Dr. Matthew McDougall is a truly special one because I and many others in science and medicine consider neurosurgeons the astronauts of neuroscience and the brain. That is, they go where others have simply not gone before and are in a position to discover incredibly novel things about how the human brain works because they are literally in there, probing and cutting, stimulating, etc, and able to monitor how people's cognition and behavior and speech changes as the brain itself has changed structurally and functionally.
今天与马修·麦克道尔博士的对话是非常特殊的，因为我和许多科学和医学界的人认为神经外科医生是神经科学和大脑领域的宇航员。也就是说，他们去了其他人从未去过的地方，处于一种探索人类大脑如何运作的绝佳位置。他们实际上进去大脑中进行探测、切割、刺激等操作，能够监测人的认知、行为和语言随着大脑的结构和功能变化而发生的变化。因此，他们能够发现关于人类大脑工作的极其新颖的事情。

Today's discussion with Dr. McDougall will teach you how the brain works through the lens of a neurosurgeon. It will also teach you about NeuralLink specific perspective about which challenges of brain function and disease are immediately tractable, which ones they are working on now, that is, as well as where they see the future of augmenting brain function for sake of treating disease and for simply making brains work better. Today's discussion also gets into the realm of devising the peripheral nervous system.
今天与麦克道格大夫的讨论将教你如何从神经外科医生的角度了解大脑的工作原理。它还将让你了解到NeuralLink具体的观点，即哪些大脑功能和疾病的挑战是可以立即解决的，他们正在处理哪些问题，以及他们如何看待增强大脑功能以治疗疾病和使大脑更好地工作的未来。今天的讨论也涉及到设计外周神经系统的领域。

In fact, one thing that you'll learn is that Dr. McDougall has a radio receiver implanted in the periphery of his own body. He did this not to overcome any specific clinical challenge, but to overcome a number of daily, everyday life challenges. In some ways, to demonstrate the powerful utility of combining novel machines, novel devices with what we call our nervous system and different objects and technologies within the world. I know that might sound a little bit mysterious, but you'll soon learn exactly what I'm referring to. By the way, he also implanted his family members with similar devices.
实际上，你会发现麦克道格博士体外植入了一台收音机接收器。他这么做不是为了克服特定的临床挑战，而是为了克服日常生活中的一些挑战。某种程度上，这是为了展示将新颖机器、新颖设备与我们所谓的神经系统、世界中的不同物体和技术相结合的强大实用性。我知道这可能听起来有点神秘，但你很快就会明白我指的是什么。顺便说一下，他还让他的家庭成员植入了类似的设备。

While all of this might sound a little bit like science fiction, this is truly science reality. These experiments, both the implantation of specific devices and the attempt to overcome specific movement disorders, such as Parkinson's and other disorders of deep brain function, as well as to augment the human brain and make it work far better than it ever has in the course of human evolution, are experiments and things that are happening now at NeuralLink. Dr. McDougall also generously takes us under the hood, so to speak, of what's happening at NeuralLink, explaining exactly the sorts of experiments that they are doing and have planned, how they are approaching those experiments.
尽管这听起来有点像科幻小说，但这是真正的科学现实。在NeuralLink，人们正在进行特定设备的植入和试图克服特定运动障碍（如帕金森病和其他深层脑功能障碍），以及增强人类大脑，使其比人类进化过程中表现得更好。麦克道尔博士还慷慨地让我们了解NeuralLink正在进行的实验以及计划中的实验。他解释了他们正在进行何种类型的实验以及如何进行这些实验。

We get into an extensive conversation about the utility of animal versus human research in improving brain function and in devising and improving the human brain and in overcoming disease in terms of neurosurgery and NeuralLink's goals. By the end of today's episode, you will have a much clearer understanding of how human brains work and how they can be improved by robotics and engineering, and you will have a very clear picture of what NeuralLink is doing toward these goals. Dr. McDougall did his medical training at the University of California San Diego and at Stanford University School of Medicine, and of course is now at NeuralLink. So he is in a unique stance to teach us about human brain function and dysfunction and to explain to us what the past, present, and future of brain augmentation is really all about.
我们就动物和人类在提高脑功能、构思和改进人类大脑、以及克服神经外科手术和NeuralLink目标方面的疾病中所起的作用进行广泛的讨论。在今天的节目结束时，您将更清楚地了解人类大脑的工作原理以及如何通过机器人技术和工程学来改进大脑，并且您将对NeuralLink为实现这些目标所做的努力有一个非常清晰的了解。麦克道格尔博士在加州圣迭戈大学和斯坦福大学医学院接受了医学培训，现在他在NeuralLink。因此，他在教授我们人类大脑功能和功能障碍以及解释大脑增强的过去、现在和未来方面拥有独特的立场。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.
在我们开始之前，我想强调这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究角色是分开的。然而，它是我努力想要为普通公众带来免费的科学和科学相关工具信息的一部分。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is HVMN KETO NIKU. HVMN KETO NIKU increases blood ketones. I want to be very clear that I like most people. I've heard of the ketogenic diet, but I like most people do not follow a ketogenic diet. That is, I'm not in ketosis. However, most people don't realize that you can still benefit from increasing your blood ketones, which is what HVMN KETO NIKU does. I take ketone IQ prior to doing really focused cognitive work, so I take it once in the afternoon, anytime I'm going to prepare for a podcast or do a podcast or if I'm going to do some research or focus on a grant, anything that requires a high level of cognitive demand. And that's because ketones are the brain's preferred use of fuel, even if you're not following a ketogenic diet. If you'd like to try ketone IQ, you can go to hvmn.com slash huberman to save 20% off your order. Again, that's hvmn.com slash huberman to save 20%.
与这个主题相符，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是HVMN KETO NIKU。HVMN KETO NIKU可以增加血中酮体含量。我想非常清楚地表明，我像大多数人一样，听说过生酮饮食，但并没有实行生酮饮食。也就是说，我没有处于酮症状态。然而，大多数人没有意识到，即使你没有实行生酮饮食，增加血中酮体含量仍然可以带来好处，这就是HVMN KETO NIKU的作用。在我进行需要高度认知需求的工作之前，比如准备播客、进行研究或撰写申请时，我会在下午或任何时间都服用ketone IQ。因为酮体是大脑最喜欢的燃料来源，即使你没有实行生酮饮食。如果你想尝试ketone IQ，你可以去hvmn.com/huberman购买并享受20%的折扣。再次提醒，hvmn.com/huberman可以享受20%的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and activities affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor. Nowadays, there's a lot of excitement about continuous glucose monitors. And levels allows you to assess how what you eat and what combinations of foods you eat and exercise and sleep.
今天的节目也由Levels带来。Levels是一个计划，让您通过使用持续血糖监测器实时反馈您的饮食如何影响您的健康。现在，连续血糖监测器受到了很多关注。Levels可以让您评估您吃什么，吃什么组合以及运动和睡眠如何影响您的健康。

And things like alcohol should you indulge in alcohol and things of that sort, how those impact your blood glucose. Now, it's very important that the cells of your body and in particular the cells of your nervous system, not experience levels of blood glucose that are too high or too low, so-called hyperglycemia or hypoglycemia. What levels allows its users to do is to understand how their specific routines, food intake patterns, exercise, etc. to impact their blood sugar levels. I, like most people who use levels, find that there's a lot to learn and a lot to be gained by understanding these blood glucose patterns. If you're interested in learning more about levels and trying to continue with glucose monitor yourself, you can go to levels.link slash huberman. Right now, levels is offering an additional two-free months of membership. Again, that's levels.linkLINK slash huberman to get two-free months of membership.
像酒精这样的东西，如果你放纵自己喝酒等类似物品，会对你的血糖产生影响。现在，非常重要的是你的身体细胞，特别是神经系统细胞不要经历血糖过高或过低的水平，即所谓的高血糖或低血糖。使用血糖监测器可以让用户了解他们特定的日常习惯，饮食摄入模式，运动等对他们的血糖水平产生的影响。我像大多数使用血糖监测器的人一样，发现了解这些血糖模式有很多可以学习和获得的好处。如果你有兴趣了解更多关于血糖监测器Levels与继续测试你的血糖，可以访问levels.link/huberman。现在，Levels提供额外两个免费会员月。再次强调，这是levels.link/huberman提供的额外两个免费会员月。

Today's episode is also brought to us by thesis. thesis makes custom neutropics. And as many of you have perhaps heard me say before, I am not a fan of the word neutropics because it literally means smart drugs. And the brain has neural circuits for focus.
今天的节目也由论文赞助。论文可以制作定制的神经增强剂，也许有些人已经听我说过，我不喜欢神经增强剂这个词，因为它实际上是指智能药物。而大脑有着专门针对注意力的神经回路。

It has neural circuits for creativity, has neural circuits for task switching. It does not have neural circuits for, quote, unquote, being smart. thesis understands this and is designed custom neutropics, each of which is designed to place your brain in body into a specific state, ideal for a particular type of work or physical effort, such as creativity or focus or clarity. If you'd like to try thesis neutropics, you simply go to their website, you fill out a brief quiz, and they will design a custom starter pack so that you can assess which things work for you more or less well.
人脑具有创造力的神经回路、任务切换的神经回路，但并没有所谓的“聪明”的神经回路。Thesis理解这一点，设计了定制的神经养护品，每种都可以将你的大脑和身体置于一个特定的状态，适合于特定类型的工作或体力活动，例如创造力、专注力或清晰度。如果你想尝试这些神经养护品，只需前往他们的网站，填写一个简短的问卷，他们将设计一个定制的入门套装，以便你评估哪些产品对你的表现更或者更不适合。

And then they'll iterate with you over the course of the next few weeks or months to come up with the ideal neutropic kit for your needs. To get your own personalized neutropic starter kit, go online to takethesis.com slash huberman. You can take that three minute quiz and they'll send you four different formulas to try in your first month. Again, that's takethesis.com slash huberman and use the code huberman. It check out to get 10% off your first box.
接下来的几周或几个月，他们将与您一起进行反复迭代，以确定最适合您需求的神经增强套装。要获得您自己的个性化神经增强起始套装，请登录 takethesis.com/huberman。您可以参加三分钟的问卷调查，他们将向您发送四种不同的配方，供您在第一个月试用。再次强调，这是 takethesis.com/huberman，并在结账时使用代码 huberman 可享受首个盒子10%的折扣。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Matthew McDougall. Dr. Mechdougall. Welcome. Good to be here. Nice to see you, Andrew. Great to see you again. We'll get into our history a little bit later, but just to kick things off as a neurosurgeon and as a neuroscientist, can you share with us your vision of the brain as an organ as it relates to what's possible there?
现在，我和马修·麦克道格尔博士进行讨论。麦克道格尔博士，欢迎您。很高兴能在这里。见到你很高兴，安德鲁。再次见到你很高兴。稍后我们会谈一些我们的历史，但作为一位神经外科医生和神经科学家，您能否与我们分享您对大脑作为一种器官的愿景，以及在这方面的可能性是什么？

I mean, I think most everyone understands that the brain is along with the body, the seat of our cognition, feelings, our ability to move, etc. And that damage there can limit our ability to feel the way we want to feel or move the way we want to move. Surgeons tend to view the world a little bit differently than most because as the not so funny joke goes, you know, they like to cut. And they like to fix and they like to mend and they in your case have the potential to add things into the brain that don't exist. They're already so how do you think about and conceptualize the brain as an organ? And what do you think is really possible with the brain that most of us don't already probably think about?
我的意思是，我认为大多数人都理解大脑是我们认知、情感、移动能力等的所在地，与身体一起。因此，大脑受损会限制我们感受想要感受的方式或者运动想要运动的方式。与其他人不同的是，外科医生通常有一点不一样的看法，因为有一个不太好笑的玩笑，你知道，他们喜欢切割。他们喜欢修复，他们喜欢修补，在你的情况下，他们有可能向大脑中添加不存在的东西。因此，你如何看待和概念化大脑这个器官？你认为大脑真正可能做到的，大多数人可能并不想到是什么？

Yeah, that's a great question. Thinking about the brain as this three pound lump of meat trapped in a prison of the skull, it seems almost magical that it could create a human set of behaviors and a life merely from electrical impulses. When you start to see patients and see say a small tumor eating away at a little part of the brain and see a very discreet function of that brain go down in isolation. You start to realize that the brain really is a collection of functional modules pinned together duct taped together in this bone box attached to your head.
是的，这是一个非常好的问题。如果我们把大脑看作是被头骨困住的三磅肉块，它仅仅通过电波就能创造出一套人类行为和生活，这似乎几乎是一种神奇的现象。当你开始看到一些患者，看到小肿瘤吞噬脑部的某一部分并且看到该脑部的一个非常明确的功能单独下降时，你会开始意识到大脑确实是一个由功能模块组成的集合，并被胶带粘在你头骨上的骨盒中。

And sometimes you see very interesting failure modes. So one of the most memorable patients I ever had was very early on in my training. I was down at UC San Diego and saw a very young guy who had just been in a car accident. We had operated on him. And you know, as is so often the case in neurosurgery, we had saved his life potentially at the cost of quality of life. When he woke from surgery with bilateral frontal lobe damage, he had essentially no impulse control left. And so we rounded on him after surgery, saw that he was doing okay to our first gas at his health. And we continued on to see our other patients. And we were called back by his 80 year old recovery room nurse saying, you've got to come see your patient right away. Something's wrong. And we walked in to see him and he points at his elderly nurse and says, she won't have sex with me. And you know, it was apparent at that moment his frontal lobes were gone. And that person is never going to have reasonable human behavior again. And that's, you know, it's one of the most tragic ways to have a brain malfunction. But you know, anything a brain does, anything from control of hormone levels in your body to vision, to sensation, to, you know, the most obvious thing, which is muscle movement of any kind, from eye movement to moving your bicep. All that comes out of the brain. All of it can go wrong. Any of it, any part of it or all of it. So, yeah, working with the brain is the substance of the brain as a surgeon, very high stakes. But, you know, once in a while you get a chance to really help, you get a chance to fix something that seems unfixable. And you have, you know, Lazarus-like miracles, not too uncommonly. So it's extremely satisfying as a career.
有时候，你会看到非常有趣的故障模式。我曾经接待过一个非常令人难忘的病人，在我进行神经外科培训的早期。当时我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校，看到了一个刚刚遭遇车祸的年轻小伙子。我们对他进行了手术。就像神经外科那样常见的，我们可能以品质的牺牲为代价挽救了他的生命。当他手术醒来时，他的双侧额叶损伤，基本上没有冲动控制。所以我们在手术后进行了巡视，看到他的健康状况还不错。我们继续去看我们的其他病人。但是当我们被他80岁的恢复室护士叫回去时，她说，“你们必须马上去看看你们的病人，出了些问题。”我们走进去看到他，他指着他那位年迈的护士，说：“她不和我发生性关系。”你知道，在那一刻，他的额叶已经消失了。那个人再也不会有合理的人类行为了。那是最悲惨的脑部故障之一。但是你知道，大脑所做的任何事情，从控制身体的激素水平，到视觉、感觉，到最明显的事情——从眼睛运动到屈肌的任何肌肉运动，都来自大脑。所有这些都可能出现问题，任何部分或全部都可以。所以，作为一个外科医生，处理大脑是一个非常高风险的职业。但是，偶尔你有机会真正帮助到别人，你有机会修复似乎无法修复的东西。你有时会有像拉撒路那样的奇迹。所以，作为职业，这是非常令人满意的。

Could you share with us one of the more satisfying experiences or perhaps the top contour of what qualifies as satisfying in neurosurgery?
你能和我们分享一些在神经外科中令人满意的经历或者令人满意的标准吗？

Yeah. You know, one of the relatively newer techniques that we do is, you know, if someone comes in with a reasonably small tumor, somewhere deep in the brain that's hard to get to, the traditional approach to taking that out would involve cutting through a lot of good, normal brain and disrupting a lot of neurons, a lot of white matter, that, you know, kind of the wires connecting neurons. Then the modern approach involves a two millimeter drill hole in the skull, down which you can pass a little fiber optic cannula and attach it to a laser and just heat the tumor up deep inside the brain. And you're direct MRI visualization in real time.
所谓现代手术技术就是用激光热治疗法来治疗深处的小肿瘤。传统的手术方式需要切开大量正常脑组织，会干扰大量神经元和白质运输的“线路”。而现代手术技术则是通过在头骨上钻一个直径为2毫米的小孔，通过光纤探头将激光照射在肿瘤深处使其受热治疗。在手术过程中可观察MRI实时成像。

So your, this person is in the MRI scanner, you're taking pictures every second or so as the tumor heats up, you can monitor the temperature and get it exactly where you want it where it's going to kill all those tumor cells, but not hurt hardly any of the brain surrounding it. Not uncommonly nowadays, we have someone come in with a tumor that previously would have been catastrophic to operate on and we can eliminate that tumor with, you know, leaving a poke hole in their skin with almost no visual after effects.
就像这个人在磁共振扫描仪里一样，你每秒钟拍照，随着肿瘤发热，你可以监测温度并确保它恰好能杀死所有的肿瘤细胞，但几乎不会对周围的脑部造成任何伤害。如今，我们经常看到有人患上了以前难以手术治疗的肿瘤，但现在我们可以用极少的视觉影响的小孔来消除这种肿瘤。

So that procedure that you just described translates into better clinical outcomes, meaning fewer, let's call them side effects or collateral damage.
因此，您刚刚描述的那个过程可以转化为更好的临床结果，这意味着更少的副作用或副效应。

Exactly right. Yeah. We don't, you know, even in cases that previously would have considered totally inoperable, say a tumor in the brain stem or a tumor in primary motor cortex or primary verbal areas, broke his area where we would have expected to either not operate or do catastrophic damage. Those people sometimes now are coming out unscathed.
非常正确。是的。你知道，即使在以前被认为完全无法手术的情况下，例如脑干或主运动皮层或主言语区的肿瘤等，我们原本可能认为要么不手术，要么会造成灾难性的损伤。这些人现在有时会毫发无损地出来。

I'm very curious about the sorts of basic information about brain function that can be gleaned from these clinical approaches of lesions and strokes and maybe even stimulation. So for instance, in your example of this patient that had bilateral frontal damage, what do you think his lack of regulation reveals about the normal functioning of the frontal lobes? Because I think the obvious answer to most people is going to be, well, the frontal lobes are normally limiting impulsivity. But as we both know, because the brain has excitatory and inhibitory neurons to sort of accelerators and breaks on communication, that isn't necessarily the straightforward answer.
我对通过损伤和中风甚至刺激的临床方法获得的关于脑功能基本信息非常好奇。例如，关于您所提到的双侧额叶损伤病人的例子，他的调节能力缺失反映了额叶的正常功能是什么呢？因为对大多数人来说，显而易见的答案可能是，额叶通常是限制冲动性的。但正如我们都知道的那样，由于大脑具有兴奋性和抑制性神经元来加速和阻止通信，它并不一定是简单明了的答案。

It could be, for instance, that the frontal lobes are acting as conductors and are kind of important, but not the immediate players in determining impulsivity. So two questions really, what do you think the frontal lobes are doing? Because I'm very intrigued by this human expanded real estate. We have a lot of it compared to other animals. And more generally, what do you think damage of a given neural tissue means in terms of understanding the basic function of that tissue?
举个例子，额叶可能作为一个导体发挥作用，并且对决定冲动性有一定的重要性，但它不是决定冲动性的直接因素。所以，有两个问题，你认为额叶在做什么？因为我对这个人类大脑的扩展领地非常感兴趣。相对于其他动物，我们拥有更多的这种领地。更一般地，你认为给定神经组织的损伤在理解该组织的基本功能方面意味着什么？

Yeah, it varies, I think, from tissue to tissue. But with respect to the frontal lobes, I think they act as sort of a filter. They selectively are saying, shh, backward to the rest of the brain behind them. When part of your brain says, that looks very attractive. I want to go grab it and take it out of the jewelry display case or whatever. The frontal lobes are saying, you can, if you go pay for it first, they're filtering the behavior.
嗯，我认为它因组织而异。但是关于额叶，我觉得它们就像一个过滤器。它们有选择地让其他后面的大脑说“嘘”。当你的大脑某个部分说“那看起来非常吸引人，我想去抓住它并把它从珠宝展示柜里拿出来时”，额叶则会说，“如果你先付钱的话就可以”。它们过滤着行为。

They're letting the impulse through maybe, but in a controlled way. This is very high level, very broad thinking about how the frontal lobes work. And that that patient I mentioned earlier is a great example of when they go wrong. He had this impulse, sort of strange impulse to be attracted to his nurse, that normally it would be easy for our frontal lobes to say, this is completely inappropriate. Wrong setting, wrong person, wrong time. In his case, he had nothing there. And so even the slightest inclination to want something came right out to the surface. So, you know, a filter calming the rest of the brain down from acting on every possible impulse.
也许他们通过控制的方式让冲动得以流露出来。这是对前额叶如何工作的高层次、广泛的思考。那位我之前提到的患者就是当这种功能出现问题时的一个极好的例子。他有某种奇怪的冲动，被他的护士所吸引，通常前额叶会轻松地判断这完全不合适。环境、人和时间都不对。但他的情况下，前额叶没有起到这个作用。因此，即使是最微小的渴望也会立即显现出来。所以，你知道的，有一个过滤器来平静大脑，防止它在每一个可能的冲动上行动。

When I was a graduate student, I was running what are called, you know, these, what these are, but just to inform you what are called, acute, which are neurophysiological experiments that last several days, because at the end you terminate the animal. This isn't my apologies to those that are made uncomfortable by animal research. I now work on humans. So a different type of animal. But at the time we were running these acute that would start one day and maybe end two or three days later. And so you get a lot of data.
当我还是一名研究生时，我进行了所谓的“急性”神经生理实验，这些实验通常持续数天，因为最终你需要终止动物实验。这并不是为了那些对动物研究感到不适的人们而道歉。现在，我在人类身上工作，所以是不同类型的动物。但当时，我们进行急性实验，从一天开始，可能持续两三天。所以你会获得很多数据。

The animals in nested ties and doesn't feel any pain the entire time of the surgery. But the one consequence of these experiments is that the experimenter me and another individual are awake for several days with an hour of sleep here or an hour of sleep there. But you're basically awake for two, three days.
手术过程中，动物们被绑在巢状结构中且始终感觉不到任何痛苦。但这些实验的一个后果是，实验者我和另一位人会在连续几天里醒着，只能点滴休息一两个小时。基本上你会醒着度过两三天。

Something that really I could only do in my teens and twenties. I was in my twenties at the time. And I recall going to eat at a diner after one of these experiments. And I was very hungry. And the waitress walking by with a tray full of food for another table. And it took every bit of self control to not get up and take the food off the tray. Something that of course is totally inappropriate and I would never do.
这是我只有在十几岁和二十岁时才能做的事情。当时我二十多岁。我记得在做完这些实验后去一家餐馆吃饭。我非常饥饿。有个服务员提着一盘食物走过，准备给另一张桌子上的客人，我忍住了自己，没有从托盘里拿走食物。这当然是非常不合适的，我永远不会这样做。

And it must have been based on what you just said that my four brain was essentially going offline or offline from the sleep deprivation. Because there was a moment there where I thought I might reach up and grab a plate of food passing by simply because I wanted it. And I didn't. But I can relate to the experience of feeling like the ssh response is a flickering in and out under conditions of sleep deprivation.
根据您刚才所说的，我的大脑的四个部分基本上在遭受睡眠剥夺时要么处于离线状态，要么正在离线。因为有一瞬间，我以为我可能会伸手去拿一盘食物，只是因为我想要它。尽管我没有这么做，但我可以理解在睡眠剥夺的情况下ssh响应感觉像在闪烁。

So do we know whether or not sleep deprivation limits for brain activity in a similar kind of way? You know, I don't know specifically if that effect is more pronounced in the four brain as opposed to other brain regions, but it's clear that sleep deprivation has broad effects all over the brain.
那么我们是否知道睡眠剥夺是否以类似的方式限制了大脑活动？虽然我不确定这种影响在四叶星状核区域相对于其他脑区更加突出，但可以肯定的是，睡眠剥夺对整个大脑都产生广泛的影响。

People start to see visual hallucinations. So the opposite end of the brain as you know the visual cortex and the far back of the brain is affected people. So the most important motor coordination goes down after sleep deprivation. So I think, you know, if you force me to give a definitive answer on that question, I have to guess that the entire brain is affected by sleep deprivation. And it's not clear that one part of the brain is. more affected than another.
人们开始出现视幻觉。你知道的视觉皮层和大脑的远端受到影响。睡眠剥夺后，最重要的运动协调降低。因此，如果你强迫我在这个问题上给出一个明确的答案，我必须猜测整个大脑都会受到睡眠剥夺的影响。并不清楚哪个大脑部分会比另一个更受影响。

I've been talking about damage to the brain and inferring function from damage. We could talk a little bit about what I consider really the holy grail of the nervous system, which is neuroplasticity. This incredible capacity of the nervous system to change its wiring, strengthen connections, weaken connections, maybe new neurons, but probably more strengthening and weakening of connections.
我一直在谈论脑损伤和通过损伤来推断功能。我们可以谈一谈我认为真正神圣的神经系统宝藏，即神经可塑性。这是神经系统的一种不可思议的能力，它可以改变自己的连线，加强连接，减弱连结，也许还有新的神经元，但可能更多的是加强和减弱连接。

Nowadays, we hear a lot of excitement about so-called classical psychedelics, like LSD and psilocybin, which do seem to quote-unquote open plasticity. They do a bunch of other things too, but through the release of neuromodulators like serotonin and so forth. How do you think about neuroplasticity? And more specifically, what do you think the potential for neuroplasticity is in the adult? So let's say older than 25-year-old brain, with or without machines being involved.
现在，我们听到了很多关于所谓的古典致幻剂（如LSD和蘑菇）的兴奋声，它们似乎打开了可塑性。它们还具有其他许多功能，通过释放神经调节剂如血清素等。你如何看待神经可塑性？更具体地说，你认为成年人的神经可塑性潜力是多少？假设大于25岁的大脑，无论是否涉及机器。 现在我们听说很多经典的致幻剂，比如LSD和蘑菇等等，这些药物似乎能够打开大脑的可塑性。这些药物除此之外还有许多其他的功能，比如通过释放神经调节剂如血清素等起到作用。你怎么看待神经可塑性呢？更具体来说，你认为成年人的神经可塑性有多大的潜力呢？比如说大于25岁的大脑，是否需要依靠技术来实现可塑性？

Because in your role at NeuralLink and as a neurosurgeon in other clinical settings, surely you are using machines and surely you've seen plasticity in the positive and negative direction. What do you think about plasticity? What's possible there without machines? What's possible with machines?
因为在你在NeuralLink的角色以及其他临床设置中担任神经外科医生时，你肯定在使用机器，并且你肯定已经看到了正面和负面的可塑性。你对可塑性有什么看法？没有机器会有什么可能性？有机器会有什么可能性？ 意思是在工作中你是否遇到并使用过机器学习，是否看到了大脑可塑性在积极和消极方面的表现，想了解你对人脑可塑性的看法，不论有没有机器学习对人脑可塑性都有哪些影响和潜力。

So as you mentioned, or alluded to, plasticity definitely goes down in older brains. It is harder for older people to learn new things, to make radical changes in their behavior, to kick habits that they've had for years.
正如你所提到或暗示的，老年人的可塑性显然会下降。对于老年人来说，学习新事物、改变行为方式以及戒掉多年习惯会更加困难。

Machines aren't the obvious answer, so implanted electrodes and computers aren't the obvious answer to increase plasticity necessarily compared to drugs. We already know that there are pharmacologics, some of the ones you mentioned psychedelics, that have a broad impact on plasticity. Yeah, it's hard to know which area of the brain would be most potent as a stimulation target for an electrode to broadly juice plasticity compared to pharmacologic agents that we already know about.
机器并不是明显的答案，因此植入电极和电脑并不是增加可塑性的明显答案，与药物相比。我们已经知道，有药物，其中你提到了致幻剂，对可塑性有广泛的影响。是的，很难知道哪个脑区最适合作为电极的刺激目标，以广泛增强可塑性，而与我们已知的药物制剂相比较。

I think with plasticity, in general, you're talking about the entire brain, you're talking about altering a trillion synapses all in a similar way in their tendency to be rewireable, to their tendency to be upward down weighted.
我认为，通常情况下，塑性的概念是指整个大脑，它能改变十万亿个突触，使它们更容易被重构，更有可能被加权。

And an electrical stimulation target in the brain necessarily has to be focused with a device like potentially neural links, there might be a more broad ability to steer current, to multiple targets with some degree of control, but you're never going to get that broad target ability with any electrodes that I can see coming in our lifetimes.
在大脑中进行电刺激的靶点必须使用像潜在的神经连接这样的设备进行聚焦，可能存在将电流引导到多个目标的更广泛能力，并具有一定程度的控制，但我认为在我们的有生之年内，任何电极都无法获得这种广泛的靶点能力。

I would say that would be coating the entire surface and depth of the brain, the way that a drug can. And so I think plasticity research will bear the most fruit when it focuses on pharmacologic agents. I wasn't expecting that answer given that you're at neural link.
我认为这将涂覆整个大脑表面和深度，就像一种药物。因此，我认为在神经可塑性研究方面，药理学制剂是最有前途的。考虑到你在神经联系方面的背景，我没有预料到你会给出这样的答案。

And then again, I think that all of us, me included, need to take a step back and realize that while we may think we know what is going on at neural link in terms of the specific goals and the general goals. And I certainly have in mind, I think most people have in mind a chip implanted in the brain or maybe even the peripheral nervous system that can give people super memories or some other augmented capacity.
而且，我认为我们所有人，包括我在内，都需要退一步，意识到虽然我们可能认为我们知道神经链接项目的具体目标和总体目标，但事实并非如此。我肯定有想法，我认为大多数人都有一个想法，即在大脑或周围神经系统中植入芯片，可以给人们超级记忆或其他增强能力。

We really don't know what you all are doing there. For all we know, you guys are taking or administering psilocybin and combining that with stimulation. I mean, we really don't know. And I say this with a tone of excitement because I think that one of the things that's so exciting about the different endeavors that Elon has really spearheaded, SpaceX, Tesla, et cetera, is that early on there's a lot of mystique.
我们真的不知道你们在那边做什么。就我们所知，你们会服用或注射蘑菇碱并结合刺激。我是说，我们真的不知道。我说这话有一种兴奋的语气，因为我认为，埃隆推动的各种事业，如SpaceX、特斯拉等等，最令人兴奋的一件事情之一就是，早期有很多神秘感。

Right. You know, mystique is a quality that is not often talked about, but it's I think a very exciting time in which engineers are starting to toss up big problems and go forward and obviously Elon is certainly among the best if not the best in terms of going really big. And Mars seems pretty far to me, right electric cars all over the road nowadays very different than the picture a few years ago when you didn't see so many of them. Rockets and so forth. And now the brain.
“没错。你知道，神秘感不是经常被谈论的品质，但我认为工程师们正在开始提出大问题并向前迈进，显然埃隆在这方面是最好的，如果不是最好的。火星对我来说似乎很远，现在电动车遍布公路，与几年前看不到这么多电动车的情况非常不同。火箭等等。现在还有大脑。” 这段话的意思是，神秘感在工程领域很重要，很多工程师们开始在解决大问题上迈进，埃隆·马斯克是其中的佼佼者，他在解决大问题上表现非常优异。注重解决火星问题，同时电动汽车也已经非常流行，常见于公路，而且不同于几年前很少有人看到。理解与掌握技术发展趋势是很重要的，在未来的技术创新中，我们应该关注趋势，以充分发挥自己的优势。

So to the extent that you are allowed, could you share with us what your vision for the missions at neural link are and what the general scope of missions are. If possible, share with us some of the more specific goals I can imagine basic goals of trying to understand the brain and augment the brain I could imagine clinical goals of trying to repair things in humans that are suffering in some way or animals for that matter.
因此，在您被允许的程度上，您能否与我们分享神经链接项目的使命愿景及任务的普遍范围。如果可能的话，请与我们分享一些更具体的目标。我可以想象基本目标是尝试理解大脑并增强大脑功能；我可以想象临床目标是尝试修复在某种程度上遭受痛苦的人类或动物身上的问题。

Yeah, it's it's funny what you mentioned. And I think that's a neural link and I think Tesla and SpaceX before it end up being these blank canvases that people project their hopes and fears on to. And so we we experience a lot of upside in this people, you know, assume that we have superpowers in our ability to alter the way brains work and people have terrifying fears of the horrible things we're going to do. And for the most part, those extremes are not true.
是的，你说的事情很有趣。我认为这是一种神经链接，而特斯拉和SpaceX之前就是这样的空白画布，人们把他们的希望和恐惧投射上去。因此，我们在这些人中经历了很多优势，人们认为我们有超人的能力去改变大脑的工作方式，而人们对我们会做出可怕的事情感到恐惧。但大多数情况下，这些极端并不是真实的。

You know, we are making a neural implant. We have a robotic insertion device that helps place tiny electrodes. The size smaller than the size of a human hair all throughout a small region of the brain. And in the first indication that we're aiming at, we are hoping to implant a series of these electrodes into the brains of people that have had a bad spinal cord injury. So people that are essentially quadriplegic, they have perfect brains, but they can't move use them to move their body.
你知道吗，我们正在研发神经植入物。我们有一个机器人插入设备，可以帮助植入微小电极，这些电极的大小比人类头发的直径还要小，在小脑区域内布置。我们的第一个目标是将这些电极系列植入那些遭受严重脊髓损伤的人的大脑中。这些人基本上是四肢瘫痪，他们大脑很健康，但无法使用它们来控制身体运动。

They can't move their arms or legs because of some high level spinal cord damage. And so this, you know, pristine motor cortex up in their brain is completely capable of operating a human body. It's just not wired properly any longer to humans, arms or legs. And so our goal is to place this implant into a motor cortex and have that person be able to then control a computer.
由于一些高级脊髓损伤，他们无法移动他们的手臂或腿。所以，你知道，他们大脑中原始的运动皮层完全能够操作人体，只是不能正确地连接到人类的手臂或腿。因此，我们的目标是将这种植入物植入运动皮层，让那个人能够控制一台计算机。

And so they can control a mouse and a keyboard as if they had their hands on a mouse and a keyboard, even though they aren't moving their hands. Their motor intentions are coming directly out of the brain into the device. And so they're able to regain their digital freedom and connect with the world through the internet. And so we use robotics to insert these chips.
因此，他们可以像真正握着鼠标和键盘一样操控鼠标和键盘，即使他们没有动手。他们的动作意图直接从大脑传输到设备中。因此，他们能够重新获得数字自由，并通过互联网与世界联系。因此，我们使用机器人技术来插入这些芯片。

And the reason I asked that is that sure I can imagine that a robot could be more precise or less precise, but in theory, more precise than the human hand, no tremor, for instance. And more precision in terms of maybe even a little micro detection device on the tip of the blade or something that could detect a capillary that you would want to avoid and swerve around that the human eye couldn't detect.
我问这个问题的原因是，我能够想象机器人可以比人类更精确或不那么精确，但理论上来说，机器人可能比人类手更精确，没有震颤的问题。而且，机器人可能还会在刀尖上安装微型探测器之类的装置，可以检测出人类眼睛无法察觉的毛细血管，并避开它们，从而更加精准。

And so I both know, however, that no two brains nor are the two sides of the same brain identical. So navigating through the brain is perhaps best carried out by a human. However, and here I'm going to interrupt myself again and say 10 years ago, face recognition was very clearly performed better by humans than machines. And I think now machines do it better.
因此，我知道，没有两个大脑，也没有同一大脑的两个侧面是完全相同的。因此，要在大脑中导航可能最好由人类来完成。然而，在这里我要再次中断自己并说，10年前，人类在面部识别方面表现明显优于机器。但我认为现在机器做得更好了。

So is this the idea that eventually or maybe even now robots are better surgeons than humans are in this limited case? Yes. And so the electrodes are so tiny and the blood vessels on the surface of the brain so numerous and so densely packed that a human physically can't do this. And so hand is not steady enough to grab this, you know, couple micron with the loop at the end of our electrode thread and place it accurately blindly, by the way, into the cortical surface accurately enough at the right depth to get through all the cortical layers that we want to reach.
那么，这个想法是说，在这种有限的情况下，机器人是否比人类更擅长做手术呢？是的。电极非常微小，而脑表面的血管非常密集，以至于人类无法完成这项工作。而且人的手不够稳定，无法准确地抓住带有电极线尾部环状部分的几微米物品，而且盲目地将其精准地放置到皮层表面，而且深度正确，以便穿过所有我们想到达的皮质层。

And I would love if human surgeons were, you know, essential to this process, but very soon humans run out of motor skills sufficient to do this job. And so we are required in this case to lean on robots to do this incredibly precise, incredibly fast, incredibly numerous placement of electrodes into the right area of the brain. So in some ways, NURLINK is pioneering the development of robotic surgeons as much as it's pioneering the exploration of an augmentation and treatment of human brain conditions.
我希望人类外科医生对这个过程是必需的，但很快就会没有足够的运动技能来完成这项工作。所以在这种情况下，我们需要依靠机器人来进行非常精确、非常快速、非常多的将电极放置到大脑正确区域的工作。因此，在某种程度上，NURLINK不仅是开创了机器人外科医生的发展，也在开创对人类大脑疾病的扩展和治疗的探索。

Right. And as the device exists currently as we're submitting it to the FDA, it is only for the placement of the electrodes, the robot is part of the surgery. I or another neurosurgeon still needs to do the, you know, the more crude part of opening the skin and skull and presenting the robot a pristine brain surface to sew electrodes into.
好的，就目前我们提交给FDA的设备而言，它仅用于放置电极，机器人只是手术的一部分。我或其他神经外科医生仍需要做更加粗糙的工作，即打开皮肤和颅骨，呈现出一块真空的大脑表面，供机器人缝合电极。

Well, surely getting quadriplegic to be able to move again or maybe even to walk again is a heroic goal and one that I think everyone would agree would be wonderful to accomplish is that the first goal because it's hard but doable. Or is that the first goal because you and Elon and other folks at NURLINK have a passion for getting paralyzed people to move again?
当然，让四肢瘫痪的人重新能够移动或甚至重新走路是一个英勇的目标，我认为每个人都会同意这是一个值得实现的美好目标。这是第一个目标，是因为它很困难但可行吗？还是因为你、埃隆和NURLINK的其他人都热衷于让瘫痪的人重新运动起来？

You know, broadly speaking, you know, the mission of NURLINK is to reduce human suffering, at least in the near term. You know, there's hope that eventually there's a use here that makes sense for a brain interface to bring AI as a tool embedded in the brain that human can use to augment their capabilities. I think that's pretty far down the road for us. But definitely on a desired roadmap.
你知道，总的来说，NURLINK的使命是减少人类的苦难，至少在近期内。你知道，有希望最终能够开发一个脑机接口的用途，将人工智能作为一种嵌入大脑的工具，帮助人类增强能力。我认为这对我们来说还很遥远，但绝对是一个期望实现的路线图。

In the near term, we really are focused on people with terrible medical problems that have no options right now. With regard to motor control, you know, our mutual friend recently departed, Krishna Chenoy was a giant in this field of motor prosthesis. It just so happens that his work was foundational for a lot of people that work in this area, including us and he was an advisor to NURLINK.
在近期，我们真正聚焦于那些目前没有任何选择的严重医疗问题的人。关于运动控制，您知道，我们的共同朋友Krishna Chenoy最近去世了，他是假肢运动领域的一位巨匠。他的工作恰好为很多在这个领域工作的人奠定了基础，包括我们自己，他也是NURLINK的顾问。

That work was farther along than most other work for addressing any function that lives on the surface of the brain. The physical constraints of our approach require us currently to focus on only surface features on the brain. So we can't say go to the really very compelling surface deep depth functions that happen in the brain like, you know, mood, appetite, addiction, pain, sleep. We'd love to get to that place eventually, but in the immediate future, our first indication or two or three will probably be brain surface functions like motor control.
这项工作比起其他关注大脑表面功能的工作更为深入。我们的研究限制目前只关注大脑表面特征，因此我们无法涉及到大脑深度功能，如情绪、食欲、成瘾、疼痛和睡眠等。我们希望能最终涉及到这些深度功能方面的研究，但目前的第一阶段研究重点仍然是大脑表面功能，例如运动控制。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens now called AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
我想暂时停下来，感谢我们的赞助商之一，Athletic Greens。Athletic Greens现在被称为AG1，它是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，可以满足你的基本营养需求。自2012年以来，我一直在服用Athletic Greens，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets to be in the probiotics that I need for gut health. Our gut is very important. It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health. And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.
我开始服用Athletic Greens的原因，而且至今仍然每天服用一次或两次，是因为它含有我所需的益生菌，有助于我肠道的健康。我们的肠道非常重要。它由肠道微生物群组成，这些微生物与大脑、免疫系统和基本上我们身体的所有生物系统通信，强烈影响我们的即时和长期健康。这些益生菌和Athletic Greens对于微生物健康来说是最理想和至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met. And it tastes great. If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to Athletic Greens.com slash Huberman. And they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road in the car on the plane, etc. And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's Athletic Greens.com slash Huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3K2.
此外，Athletic Greens 还含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，确保我所有基础营养需求都得到满足，而且口感极佳。如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/Huberman，他们会赠送您五个免费的旅行包，让您在路上、在车上或在飞机上轻松搭配 Athletic Greens。此外，他们还会赠送您一年的维生素D3K2补给。再次提醒，Athletic Greens.com/Huberman 可免费获得五个旅行包和一年的维生素D3K2补给。

So for those listening, the outer portions of the brain are filled with or consist of rather neocortex. So the the bumpy stuff that looks like sea coral, some forms of sea coral look like brains or brains look like them. And then underneath reside a lot of the brain structures that control what Matt just referred to, things like sea coral mood, hormone output, how awake or asleep the brain is.
对于那些正在听的人来说，大脑的外部结构被填充或者说由新皮层构成。新皮层看起来有些起伏，像海珊瑚一样，某些海珊瑚看起来像大脑，或者大脑看起来像它们。然后，在这些表面下面，存在着许多控制情绪、激素输出、大脑清醒或睡眠状态的大脑结构。

And would you agree that those deeper regions of the brain have in some ways more predictable functions? I mean, that lesions there or stimulation there lead to more predictable outcomes in terms of deficits or improvements in function. Yeah, in some way, yes, I mean, the deeper parts of the brain tend to be more stereotyped as in more similar between species than the the outer surface of the brain.
你认为大脑的深层区域在某些方面具有更可预测的功能，你同意吗？我的意思是，那里的损伤或刺激会导致更可预测的缺陷或功能改善。是的，在某种程度上是这样，我的意思是，大脑的深层部分往往更具有成规模风格，更类似于物种之间的大脑外表面。

They're kind of the firmware or the housekeeping functions to some degree body temperature, blood pressure, sex motivation, hunger, things that you don't really need to vary dramatically between a fox and a human being. Whereas the the outer more reasoning functions of problem solving functions between a fox and a human are vastly different. And so the physical requirements of those brain outputs are different.
它们有点类似固件或某种程度的卫生保健功能，例如体温、血压、性欲、饥饿等，这些东西在狐狸和人之间不需要有很大的差异。而狐狸和人之间的推理和解决问题的功能却差别很大。因此，这些大脑输出的物理要求也不同。

I think I heard Elon describe it as the human brain is essentially a monkey brain with a supercomputer placed on the outside, which sparks some interesting ideas about what neocortex is doing. We have all this brain real estate on top of all that more stereotype function type stuff in the deeper brain. And it's still unclear what neocortex is doing in the case of frontal cortex.
我认为马斯克曾经形容人类大脑本质上是一只带有超级计算机的猴子大脑，这引发了一些有趣的思考，关于新皮层在做什么。我们拥有深层大脑更多的刻板功能和更高级别的功能，还有大量的大脑空间。但对于额叶皮层来说，它在进行什么样的活动仍然不是十分清楚。

As he mentioned earlier, it's clear that it's providing some shh, quieting of impulses, some context setting, rule setting, context switching. All of that makes good sense. But then there are a lot of cortical areas that sure are involved in vision or touch or hearing. But then there's also a lot of real estate that just feels unexplored.
正如他之前提到的那样，很明显它提供了某些作用，如减弱冲动、设定环境、规则设立、环境转换等，这一切都是有意义的。但是还有许多大脑皮层区域涉及视觉、触觉和听觉等方面，但也有许多没有被发掘的区域。

So I'm curious whether or not in your clinical work or work with neural link or both, whether or not you have ever encountered neurons that do something that's really peculiar and intriguing. And here I'm referring to examples that could be anywhere in the brain. Like where you go, wow, like these neurons when I stimulate them or when they're taken away leads to something kind of bizarre but interesting.
我很好奇，在你的临床工作或神经连接工作中，或者两者都有，你是否曾经遇到过一些非常奇特和有趣的神经元，其表现方式让你感到惊讶。我指的是任何在大脑中出现的例子。比如，当你刺激这些神经元或将它们取走时，会出现一些奇怪却有趣的现象。

Yeah. Yeah. There's the one that comes immediately to mind is unfortunately in a terrible case in kids that have a tumor in the hypothalamus that lead to what we call jelastic seizures, which is sort of a uncontrollable fit of laughter. There's been cases in the literature where this laughter is so uncontrollable and so pervasive that people suffocate from failing to breathe where they laugh until they pass out.
是的，是的。我马上想到的一个是，不幸的是在一些患有下丘脑肿瘤的孩子中会出现弹性抽搐，这种抽搐会导致他们无法控制地笑出声音。文献中曾经记录过更极端的情况，这种笑声难以控制并且无处不在，有些人甚至会因为失去呼吸而窒息，像是一直笑到昏厥的样子。

And so you don't normally think of a deep structure in the brain like the hypothalamus is being involved in the function like humor. And certainly when we think about this kind of laughter in these kids with tumors, it's a worthless laughter is the kind of textbook phrase humorless laughter. It's just a reflexive, almost zombie-like behavior. And it comes from a very small population of neurons deep in the brain.
因此，你通常不会认为像下丘脑这样的深层结构会参与幽默等功能。当然，当我们思考这些肿瘤患儿中的这种笑声时，无用的笑声是一种毫无幽默感的笑声的课本短语。它只是一种反射性的、几乎像僵尸一样的行为。它来自于大脑深处一小部分神经元。

This is one of the other sort of strange loss of functions you might say is, you know, it's nice that you and I can sit here and not have constant disruptive fits of laughter coming out of our bodies. But that's a neuronal function that's, you know, thank goodness, due to neurons properly wired and properly functioning and any neurons that do anything like this can be broken. And so we see this in horrifying cases like that from time to time.
这是另一种奇怪功能丧失的例子，你可以说的是，你知道，我们可以坐在这里而不会不停地因笑而打乱节奏，这是一种神经功能, 由于正确连接和适当功能的神经元而产生。任何神经元如果产生这种效果都是有问题的。因此，我们不时会看到一些可怕的例子。

So I'm starting to sense that there are two broad bins of approaches to augmenting the brain either to treat disease or for sake of increasing memory, creating super brains, etc. One category you alluded to earlier, which is pharmacology. And you specifically mentioned that the tremendous power that pharmacology holds. Whether or not through psychedelics or through prescription drug or, you know, some other compound.
我开始感觉人们对增强大脑的方法可以分为两类，一类是为了治疗疾病，另一类是为了提高记忆力、创造超级大脑等等。你之前提到的一种方法是药理学，你特别指出了药物的巨大威力。无论是通过致幻剂、处方药或其他化合物，药理学都具有巨大的潜力。

The other approach are these little micro electrodes that are extremely strategically placed right into multiple regions in order to play essentially a concert of electricity that is exactly right to get a quadriplegic moving. That sparks two questions.
另一种方法是使用微小的微电极，将它们精确地放置在多个区域，以演奏一个可使四肢瘫痪者移动的电子音乐会。这引发了两个问题。

First of all, is there a role for and is neural link interested in combining pharmacology with stimulation? So not immediately right now we're solely focused on the extremely hard. Some might say the hardest problem facing humans right now of decoding the brain through electrical stimulation and recording. That's enough for us for now.
首先，神经连接是否与药理学结合有任何作用？现在还不是，我们目前专注于解码大脑通过电刺激和记录的极端难题。现在这已经足够了。

So to just give us a fuller picture of this, we're talking about a patient who can't move their limbs because they have spinal cord damage. The motor cortex that controls movement is in theory fine. Make a small hole in the skull and through that whole robot is going to place electrodes. Obviously motor cortex, but then where how is the idea that you're going to play a concert from different locations you're going to hit all the keys on the piano in different combinations and then figure out what can move the limbs.
因此，为了让我们更清楚地了解这一点，我们正在讨论一个患者，由于脊髓损伤而无法移动他们的四肢。控制运动的运动皮层理论上是良好的。在头骨上开个小洞，机器人会通过那个洞口放置电极。显然是运动皮层，但是在哪里如何演奏不同位置的音乐会, 你将会弹响钢琴上所有按键并找出如何移动肢体的想法。

What I'm alluding to here is I still don't understand how the signals are going to get out of motor cortex past the lesion and into and out to the limbs because the lesion hasn't been dealt with at all in this scenario. Clarified there I should emphasize we're not in the immediate future talking about reconnecting the brain to the patient's own limbs. That's on the road map, but it's way down the road map a few years.
我现在想说的是我仍然不理解信号将如何通过运动皮层穿过病变并到达四肢进行传递，因为在这种情况下病变并没有得到解决。我要强调的是，在不久的将来，我们并不打算将大脑重新连接到患者自己的肢体上。这是在路线图上的，但它还需要数年的时间。

What we're talking about in the immediate future is having the person be able to control electronic devices around them with their motor intentions alone right so prosthetic hand in arm or just mouse and keys on a mouse and keys on a keyboard for starters.
我们目前讨论的是，让人们仅凭运动意图就能控制周围的电子设备，比如义肢手臂、鼠标和键盘等。为此，我们先从鼠标和键盘开始着手。

So you wouldn't see anything in the world move as they have an intention the patient might imagine say flexing their fist or moving their wrist and what would happen on the screen is the mouse would move down and left and click on an icon and bring up their word processor and then a keyboard at the bottom of the screen would allow them to select letters in sequence and they could type.
那么你不会看到世界上的任何事物移动，就像他们有意识一样。例如，病人可能会想象屈指或移动手腕，而在屏幕上所发生的是，鼠标会向下和左侧移动并点击一个图标，然后一个位于屏幕底部的键盘可以让他们按顺序选择字母并进行打字。

The easy place to start easy and quotes I would say because the transformation of electrical signals from motor cortex through the brain stem into the spinal cord and out to the muscles is somewhat known right through a hundred years or more of incredible laboratory research right but the transformation meaning how to take the electrical signals out of motor cortex and put it into a mouse or a robot arm.
从容易且引人入胜的地方开始，我会说这是因为电信号从运动皮质经过脑干进入脊髓，再传输到肌肉的转化已经在实验室研究中有超过一百年的发现了。但是这项转化，指的是如何将来自运动皮质的电信号传输到老鼠或机器臂中，仍然需要探索。

That's not a trivial problem I mean that that's a whole other set of problems in fact well we were take we're unloading some of that difficulty from from the brain itself from the brain of the patient and putting some of that into software so we're using smarter algorithms to decode the motor intentions out of the brain.
这不是一个简单的问题，我的意思是这是一整套问题，事实上，我们正在把一些困难从患者本身的大脑中卸下来，并将其中一些放入软件中。因此，我们正在使用更智能的算法从大脑中解码运动意图。

We have been able to do this in monkeys really well so we have you know a small army of monkeys playing video games for you know smoothie rewards and they do really well we we actually have the world record of bit rate of information coming out of a monkey's brain to you know intelligently control a cursor on a screen we're doing that better than anyone else.
我们已经能够在猴子身上很好地实现这一点，所以我们有一支小小的猴子军玩视频游戏，以获取顺畅的奖励，它们表现得非常出色，我们实际上拥有从猴子的大脑中输出信息的比特率世界纪录，以智能地控制屏幕上的光标，我们比其他任何人都做得更好。

You know again thanks in no small part due to Krishna Chenoy and his you know his lab and the people that have worked for him that have been helping their link. But what you can't do with that monkey is ask him what what he's thinking you can't ask him you can ask him but he won't get a very interesting answer.
在很大程度上，由于Krishna Chenoy及其实验室及为他工作并协助他们的人员，我再次表示感谢。但是，你不能向那只猴子询问他在想什么，你可以问他，但你不会得到非常有趣的答案。

You can't tell him to try something different you can't tell him to hey you know try their shoulder on this I try the other hand and see if there's some cross body neuron firing that gives you a useful signal once we get the people.
你不能告诉他尝试不同的方法，你不能告诉他嘿，你知道尝试在肩膀上这样，也尝试用另一只手看看是否有跨体神经元的放电，从而给你一个有用的信号，一旦我们有这些人。意思是在尝试新方法时，不能单纯地要求一个人去做，需要考虑到神经元的反应并寻找有用的信号。

We expect to see what they've seen when they've done similar work in academic labs which is the the human can work with you to vastly accelerate this process and get much more interesting results so one of the things out of out of Stanford recently is.
我们期望在学术实验室中进行类似工作时，能够看到他们所看到的情况，即人类能够与您合作，极大地加速该过程，并获得更加有趣的结果。最近出现的一件事情是在斯坦福大学中取得的。

There was a lab that with Krishna and Jamie Henderson and other people decode speech out of the hand movement area in the brain so what we know is that there are you know multitudes of useful signals in each area of the brain that we look that so far they just tend to be highly expressed for say hand movement in the hand area but that doesn't mean only hand movement in the hand area.
有一个实验室，Krishna 和 Jamie Henderson 和其他人一起从大脑的手部运动区解码语音。我们所知道的是，每个大脑区域都有许多有用信号，但目前只发现手部运动区域高度表达这些信号，但这并不意味着仅限于手部运动。

So here's the confidence test there's a long history dating back really prior to the 1950s of scientists doing experiments on themselves.
这里是对自信心的测试，从20世纪50年代之前开始，科学家们一直在进行自我实验的长期历史。这个测试旨在考察人们的自信程度。

Not because they are reckless but because they want the exact sorts of information that you're talking about the ability to really understand how intention and awareness of goals can shape outcomes in biology if that is vague to people listening what I mean here is that for many probably hundreds of years if not longer scientists have taken the drugs they've studied or stimulated their own brain or done things to really try and get a sense of the right.
他们之所以这样做，并不是因为他们鲁莽，而是因为他们想获取您谈论的确切信息。他们想真正理解意图和目标意识如何塑造生物学结果。如果听众对此感到模糊，那么我的意思是，在许多，可能有数百年甚至更长时间里，科学家们已经服用他们研究的药物，刺激他们自己的大脑或做一些事情，以真正地理解正确的感觉。

So really trying to get a sense of what the animals they work on or the patients they work on might be experiencing psychiatrist or sort of famous for this by the way I'm not pointing fingers at anybody but psychiatrist are known to try the drugs that they administer and some people would probably imagine that's a good thing just so that the clinicians could have empathy for the sorts of side effects and not so great effects of some of these drugs that they administer to patients but the confidence test I present you is.
他们真正想要了解的是他们所研究的动物或病人可能会经历什么，精神病医生或许以此出名。顺便说一下，我并不是指责任何人，但大家都知道精神病医生常常会尝试他们所使用的药物，有些人可能认为这是好事，因为临床医生可以同情某些药物的副作用以及不太好的效果，但我给你们提出的信心测试是……。

Would you be willing or are you willing if allowed to have these electrodes implanted into your motor cortex yeah you're not a quadriplegic right you can move your limbs yeah but given the state of the technology at neural link now.
如果允许把这些电极植入你的运动皮层，你愿意吗？是的，你不是四肢瘫痪的人，你可以活动肢体。但考虑到 Neuralink 目前的技术水平。

Would you do that or maybe in the next couple of years if you were allowed would you be willing to do that yeah and be the person to say hey turn up the stimulation over there I feel like I want to reach for the cup right with that robotic arm but I'm feeling kind of some resistance because it's exactly that kind of experiment done on a person who can move their limbs and who deeply understands the technology and the goals of the experiment that I would argue actually stands to advance the technology fastest.
如果有机会，你是否愿意在未来几年做这件事？你会做那个人，告诉他们在哪里加强刺激，让我的机器手臂能够拿起杯子。不过，我会感到一些阻力，因为这种实验需要一个能够活动肢体并深刻理解技术和实验目标的人。我认为这种实验能够最快地推进技术的发展。

As opposed to putting the electrodes first into somebody who is impaired at a number of levels and then trying to think about why things aren't working right and again that you know this is all with the goal of reversing paralysis in mind but would you implant yourself with these micro electrodes yeah absolutely I I would be excited to do that I think for the first iteration of the device it probably wouldn't be very meaningful it wouldn't be very useful because I can still not be able to do that.
相较于先将电极植入身体多个不同级别的障碍者，然后试图思考为什么事情不能正常工作，再由此达到逆转瘫痪的目标，你会植入这些微型电极吗？是的，我会很兴奋地这么做。但是，对于设备的第一次尝试来说，它可能并不意义深远，也不会很有用，因为我可能仍然无法使用它。

It's useful because I can still move my limbs and our first outputs from this are things that I can do just as easily with my hands right moving them out is typing in a keyboard. We are necessarily making this device as a medical device for starters for people with bad medical problems and no good options. For an able body person to get one in the near term it as the technology develops and we make devices specifically designed to perform functions that can't be done even by an able body person say eventually refine the technique to get to the point where you can type faster with your mind and one of these devices then you can with text to speech or speech to text and your fingers.
这个设备很有用，因为我仍然可以移动我的肢体，并且我们的首个输出是一些我可以像用手一样轻松完成的事情，比如在键盘上打字。我们首先将这个设备作为医疗设备，为那些有严重医疗问题却没有好的选择的人服务。对于身体健康的人来说，随着技术的发展和我们设计出专门用于执行甚至身体健康的人也做不到的功能的设备，他们在不久的将来可以获得这个设备。最终，我们会完善这项技术，使得你可以用你的大脑和这个设备比使用文本转语音或语音转文本以及手指更快地打字。

That's a use case that makes sense for someone like me to get it it doesn't really make sense for me to you know get one when it allows me to you know use a mouse slightly worse than I can with my hand currently that said the safety of the device I would absolutely vouch for from you know the hundreds of surgeries that I've personally done with this. I think it's much safer than many of the industry standard FDA approved surgeries that I routinely do on on patients that you know are no one even thinks twice about their standard of care. Neuralink is already reached in my mind safety threshold that is far beyond a commonly accepted safety threshold along the lines of augmenting once biological function or functions in the world.
这个用例对于像我这样的人来说是有意义的，因为对我来说，使用它并不是为了让我用鼠标比我现在用手更差。但话又说回来，从我个人进行的数百次手术来看，我绝对可以担保这个设备的安全性。我认为，它比许多常规接受的FDA批准手术要安全得多，这些手术是我在日常工作中为病人进行的，而人们几乎不会考虑治疗标准。从增强生物功能或在世界上发挥功能的角度来看，Neuralink已经达到了我心目中的安全门槛，远远超出了常见的安全门槛。

I think now's the appropriate time to talk about the small lump. Present in the top of your hand for those listening not watching there's a looks like a small lump between doctor McDougal's four finger and thumb or index finger and thumb place on skin built on the top of his hand you've had this for some years now because we've known each other for gosh probably seven years now or so and you've always had it in the time that I've known you what is that lump. And why did you put it in there yeah so it's a small rightable RF ID tag what's an RF ID what is RF ID stand for radio frequency identification and so it's just a very small implantable chip that wireless devices can temporarily power if you approach an antenna they can power and send a small amount of data back and forth.
我认为现在是谈论你手上那个小肿块的适当时机。对于那些在听而不是看的人，那里有一个看起来像在麦克道格尔博士的四个手指和拇指之间或食指和拇指之间皮肤上的小隆起，你已经有好几年了，因为我们认识已经有七年了，或者更多了。在我认识你的这段时间里，你一直有这个东西。那是什么肿块？为什么你把它放在那里呢？嗯，它是一个可以读写的射频识别标签。RFID是什么？RFID代表无线射频识别技术。它只是一个非常小的可植入芯片，无线设备可以通过接近天线临时供电，并发送少量的数据进行交互。

So most phones have the capability of reading and writing to this chip for years it let me into my house it unlocked a deadbolt on my front door for some years it unlocked the doors at Neuralink and let me through you know the various locked doors inside the building. It is rightable I can write a small amount of data to it and so for some some years in early the early days of crypto I had a crypto private key written on it to store a cryptocurrency that I thought was you know a dead offshoot of one of the main crypto currencies after it forked and so I put the private wallet key on there and forgot about it and remember a few years later that it was there and went and checked and it was worth.
大多数手机多年来都具备读写该芯片的能力。这个芯片让我能打开家门，解锁前门上的死闩，也能打开 Neuralink 的门并让我进入建筑内的各种锁着的房间。它是可写的，我可以向它写入少量数据。在加密货币的早期，我曾把一个私钥写在上面，用于存储一种加密货币，我认为它是主要加密货币的死亡分支。然后我忘了它的存在，几年后才记起查看，结果它的价值已经增长了。

You know a few thousand dollars more than when I left it on there so that was a nice finding change in the sofa in the 21st century and when you say you read it you're essentially taking a phone or other devices scanning it over the RF the lump in your hand so to speak and then it can read the data from there yeah essentially yeah what other sorts of things could one put into these RF IDs in theory and how long can they stay in there before you need to take them out and yeah and recharge them or replace them well these are passive they're coded in bio compatible glass and as an extra I'm a rock climber and so I was worried about that glass shattering during rock climbing I additionally coded them in another ring of silicone before implanting that so it's it's pretty safe they're passive there's no battery there's no active electronics in them so they could last the rest of my life I don't think I'd ever have to remove it for any reason.
你知道我离开时在沙发里找到了几千美元，所以这是一次很好的意外之财。在21世纪，当你说你读取它时，你基本上是拿着电话或其他设备在手中扫描它上面的射频小块，然后可以从那里读取数据。在理论上，这些RFID中可以放置什么其他类型的东西？它们可以保留多久才需要取出来充电或更换？它们是被动式的，编码在生物兼容玻璃里，并且作为额外的保护措施，我是攀岩者，所以我担心在攀岩时会导致玻璃破碎。在植入前，我还将它们编码在另一层硅胶中，所以非常安全。它们是被动式的，没有电池和主动电子设备，所以它们可以持续我一生，我不认为我需要为任何原因取出它们。

You know at some point the technology is always improving so I might remove it and upgrade it that's not inconceivable already there's you know 10x more storage versions available that could be a drop in replacement for this if I ever remove it. But you know it has a small niche use case and it's an interesting proof of concept tip towing towards the concept that you mentioned of you know you have to be willing to go through the things that you're suggesting to your patients in order to you know say what a straight face that you think this is a reasonable thing to do.
你知道，技术总是在不断地改进，所以我可能会升级和移除它。这已经不是不可思议的事情，因为现在有更多的储存版本可以直接替换。但是，它有一个小众用途，是一个有趣的概念验证，迈向你所提到的概念的一小步，即你必须愿意亲自经历你给患者建议的事情，才能坦然说出你认为这是合理的做法。

So a small subcutaneous implant in the hand it's a. little different than a brain implant but yeah what's involved in getting that RFID chip into the hand is it I'm assuming it's an outpatient procedure presumably you did it on yourself. Yeah yeah this was a kitchen table kind of procedure. Any anesthetic or no. You know I've seen people do this with a lidocaine injection I from my money I think a lidocaine injection is probably as painful as just doing the procedures a little cut in that thin skin on the top of the hand right some people are cringing right now other people are saying I want one because you never worry about losing your keys yeah or passwords I actually would like it for passwords because I'm dreadfully bad at remembering passwords I have to put them in places all over the place and then it's like I'm like that kid in that remember that movie stand by me where the kid hides the pennies under the porch and then uses the map yeah it spends all summer trying to walk.
手上植入一个小型皮下植入物，它与大脑植入物略有不同，但是安装RFID芯片需要什么，我假设这是门诊手术，你可能是自己做的。是的，这是一种在厨房桌上的手术。有用麻醉吗？我见过人们用利多卡因注射做这个，但从我的经验来看，利多卡因注射可能与直接进行手术一样疼痛，只需要在手顶部的薄皮肤上划一下就可以了。有些人现在可能感到不安，而有些人则想要它，因为你永远不用担心失去钥匙，或密码。我实际上会因为密码困扰而需要它，因为我很糟糕地记不住密码，不得不把它们放在各个地方，然后就像电影《和我同行》中那个隐藏了一角硬币并使用地图的孩子一样，整个夏天都在努力寻找。

So I can relate yeah so a little it was just a little slit and then put in there no local immune response no no post no swelling. All the materials are completely bio compatible there on the surface exposed to the body so no no bad reaction it healed up you know in days and it was fine. Very cool since we're on video here maybe can you just maybe raise it and show us yeah so were you not to point out that little lump I would have known to ask about it but and any other members of your family have these. After having this and seeing the convenience of me being able to open the door without keys my wife insisted that I put one in her as well so she's walking around with one fantastic we consider them are sort of our version of wedding rings. Well it certainly more permanent than wedding rings in in some sense.
所以我可以理解，只有一个小缝口，然后放进去没有任何局部免疫反应，也没有肿胀。所有材料都是完全生物相容的，暴露在体表面上，因此没有任何不良反应，它在几天内就愈合了，非常酷。既然我们在视频上，也许您可以抬起来给我们看一下，如果您没有指出那个小肿块，我就不会知道要询问它，您的家人是否也有类似的东西。在这之后，看到我可以无需钥匙就能打开门的便利性，我的妻子坚持要我也给她装一个，所以她现在拥有一个，非常好用，我们把它们视为我们婚戒的一种版本。好吧，在某种意义上，它确实比婚戒更永久。

I can't help but ask this question and though it might seem a little bit off topic as long as we're talking about implantable devices and Bluetooth and RFID chips in the body I could ask a lot about the safety or lack there of. Of a Bluetooth headphones you work on the brain your brain surgeon that's valuable real estate in there and you understand about electromagnetic fields and. Any discussion about EMS immediately puts us in the category of like get their tin foil hats and yet I've been researching EMS for a future episode of the podcast and EMS are a real thing that's not a valuable statement everything's a real thing at some level even an idea but there does seem to be some evidence that electromagnetic fields of sufficient strength can alter the function of maybe the health of but the function of neural tissue given the neural tissue is electrically signaling among itself so I'll just ask this in a very straightforward way do you use Bluetooth headphones or wired headphones yeah Bluetooth and you're not worried about any kind of EMS fields across the skull no I mean I think the energy levels involved are so tiny that.
我忍不住要问这个问题，虽然它看起来可能有些离题，但只要我们谈到可植入设备、蓝牙和身体中的RFID芯片，我就可以问很多关于安全性或缺乏安全性的问题。对于一款在大脑工作的蓝牙耳机，你的大脑外科医生知道那是宝贵的地产，并且你了解电磁场。任何关于EMS的讨论都会立即把我们归入“木制遮阳帽”的类别。但是，我一直在研究未来的播客剧集，EMS是一个真实的事物，这并不重要，因为所有的东西在某个层面上都是真实的，即使是一个想法，但是有一些证据表明足够强度的电磁场可能会改变神经组织的功能，甚至可能影响健康，因为神经组织之间是通过电信号相互传递的。那么，我来直截了当地问你一个问题，你使用蓝牙耳机还是有线耳机？是蓝牙，你不担心头骨上的任何EMS场吗？我是说，涉及的能量水平非常微小。

You know ionizing radiation aside we're way out of the realm of ionizing radiation that people would worry about you know tumor causing EMS fields. Even just the electromagnetic field itself as is very well described in a Bluetooth frequency range the power levels are tiny in these devices and so you know we are a wash in these signals whether you use. Bluetooth headphones are not for that matter you're you're getting bombarded with ionizing radiation in a very tiny amount no matter where you live on earth unless you live under huge amounts of water. It's unavoidable and so I think you just have to trust that your body has the DNA repair mechanisms that it needs to deal with the constant bath of ionizing radiation that you're in. And as a result of being in the universe and exposed to cosmic rays in terms of electromagnetic fields that it's just it's a.
除了电离辐射以外，我们已经远离了人们所担心的肿瘤致病的电磁辐射领域。即使是仅仅电磁场本身，在蓝牙频率范围内已经得到了很好的描述。这些设备中的功率水平很小，因此无论您使用蓝牙耳机与否，您都会受到电离辐射微小的轰击，除非您住在大量水下。 这是不可避免的，因此我认为您只需相信您的身体具有DNA修复机制来应对您所处的电离辐射的不断浸泡。作为在宇宙中存在并暴露于宇宙射线的电磁场方面的结果，它只是它。

You know the energy levels are way way out of the range where I would be worried about this what about heat. You know I don't use the earbuds any longer for a couple of reasons once as you know I take a lot of supplements and I reached into my left pocket once in swallowing a handful of supplements that included a Bluetooth a air pod pro I knew it I swallowed it the moment after I. Go up to down by the way folks please don't do this it was not a good idea it wasn't an idea it was a mistake and but I could see it on my phone as registering there never sought again so I'm assuming it's no longer. my body but. Anyway there's a bad joke there to be sure but it in any of that I tend to lose them as places so that's the main reason I but I did notice when I use them that there's some heat generated there.
你知道这个耳机的能量级别远超出了我担心的范围，那么热量呢？你知道我已经不再使用这个耳机，有几个原因。首先，你知道我服用了很多的补品。有一次，当我伸手到口袋里拿补品时，不小心连同一个蓝牙空气耳塞一起吞下去了。我当时意识到了这点，但它随即钻到了我的喉咙里。这不是一个好主意，它像一个错误。我在手机上看到这个空气耳塞还在我的身体里。但是，不管怎样，我经常把它们放错地方，这是我不再使用它们的主要原因之一。但我注意到在使用它们的时候，会产生一些热量。

I also am not convinced that plugging your ears all day long is there's some ventilation through the through the sinus systems that include the years so it sounds to me like you're not concerned about the use of earbuds but what about heat near the brain I mean there's the the cochlea the auditory mechanisms that sit pretty close to the surface there. Heat and neural tissue are not friends sure I much rather get my brain cold than hot yeah in terms of keeping the cells healthy and alive. Should we be thinking about the heat effects of some of these devices or other things is there anything we're overlooking well think about it this way the.
我也不觉得整天塞住耳朵是好的，因为通过鼻窦系统通风，耳朵也可以得到通风。所以听起来你并不担心耳塞的使用，但热量靠近大脑怎么办呢？我的意思是，耳蜗和听觉机制很靠近表面。热和神经组织不是好朋友，因此我更愿意让我的大脑保持冷静而不是过热，这对细胞的健康和生存非常重要。我们应该考虑一下一些设备或其他事物的热效应，有没有我们忽视的东西呢？我们可以这样想。

I use cars as an analogy a lot and you know mostly internal combustion engine cars so these analogies are going to start to be foreign and useless for another generation of people that grow up in the air of electric cars but using cars as a as a platform to talk about. Fluid cooling systems your body has a massive distributed fluid cooling system similar to cars radiator your pumping blood all around your body all the time at a very strictly controlled temperature that blood carries a it's mostly water so it carries a huge amount of the heat.
我经常使用汽车作为类比，主要是内燃机汽车，所以这些类比将开始变得陌生并且对于在电动汽车时代成长的另一代人来说是无用的，但是使用汽车作为一个谈论平台来谈论流体冷却系统，你的身体拥有一个分布式流体冷却系统，类似汽车散热器，你的血液一直以非常严格的温度在全身循环，而这些血液携带的大部分是水，因此携带了大量的热量。

A way or cold away from any area of the body that's focused heating or focused cooling so you could put an ice cube on your skin until it completely melts away and the blood is going to bring heat back to that area you can put you can stand in the sun under. Much more scary heating raise from the sun itself the contain UV radiation that's that's definitely damaging your DNA if you're looking for things to be afraid of the sun is a good one. I'm talking to the guy that tells everybody get sunlight in their eyes every morning but I don't want people to get burned or give themselves skin cancer I encourage people to protect their skin accordingly and different individuals require different levels of protection from the sun some people do very well in a lot of sunshine never get basil cell or anything like that some people.
这段话讲述了一种避开身体热或冷处理区域的方法，你可以把冰块放在皮肤上直到完全融化，血液会将热带回该区域，也可以站在阳光下。但要注意，阳光自身会释放出有害的紫外线，对DNA有损害。一些人对阳光的需求不同，需要不同程度的皮肤保护措施。如果不想被晒伤或引发皮肤癌，建议加强皮肤保护。

And it's not just people with very fair skin a minimum of sun exposure can cause some issues and hear about sun exposure to the skin of course staring at the sun is a bad idea I never recommend thinking about the sun just as a heater you know for for a moment to compare with Bluetooth headphones your body is very. Capable of carrying that heat away and anticipating it you know via sweat evaporation or you know temperature equalization so any heat that's locally generated in the year.
这不仅仅是对于肤色很白的人，最小程度的阳光照射也可能引起一些问题。当然，我们都知道，直视太阳是个不好的主意。我从不推荐这样做。你知道，太阳就像一个加热器，你的身体可以很好地承受这种热量，通过出汗蒸发或者温度平衡来预防它的影响。所以，任何在你的身体中产生的热量，都会在通过汗液蒸发或温度调节逐渐散发掉。

You know one there's a pretty large bony barrier there but to there's a ton of blood flow in the scalp and in the head in general and definitely in the brain that's going to regulate that temperature so I think. Certainly there can be a tiny temperature variation but I doubt very seriously that it's enough to cause a significant problem like to go back to. Brain augmentation you've made very clear that one of the first goals for neural link is to get quadriplegic walking again and again what a marvelous goal that is I certainly hope you guys succeed well again just just to be very clear the first step is we we aren't reconnecting the patients own muscle system.
你知道，头皮和头部一般有大量的血液流动，特别是在大脑中，这会调节体温，但也有一个相当大的骨质屏障。当然可能会有微小的温度变化，但我很怀疑这足以引起像大脑增强那样的重大问题。你已经非常清楚地表明神经链接的第一个目标是让四肢瘫痪患者再次行走，这是一个多么神奇的目标，我当然希望你们能成功。但要再次明确，第一步是我们没有再连接患者自己的肌肉系统。

To their motor cortex allowing them excuse me agency over the movement of things in the world yes and eventually their body and you're exactly right yeah eventually their body we would we would love to do that we've done a lot of work. On developing a system for stimulating the spinal cord itself and so that gets to the question that you that you asked a few minutes ago of how do you reconnect the motor cortex to the rest of the body well if you can bypass the damaged area of.
让人们的运动皮层获取支配所有事物运动的能力，最终控制他们的身体。是的，你说得很对，最终是控制他们的身体。我们希望能够实现这一点。我们已经研究了很多刺激脊髓本身的系统。这引发了你几分钟前问的一个问题，即如何将运动皮层重新连接到身体的其他部分。如果你可以绕过受损的区域，问题就可以得到解决。

The spinal cord and have an implant in the spinal cord itself connected to an implant in the brain and have them talking to each other you can take the perfectly intact motor signals out of the motor cortex and send them to the spinal cord which most of the wiring should be intact in the spinal cord below the level of say the injury caused by car accident or motorcycle accident or gunshot wound or whatever. And it should be possible to reconnect the brain to the body in that way so not out of the realm of possibility. that you know in some small number of years that Nirlink will be able to reconnect somebody's own body to their brain.
脊髓和脊髓内的植入物连接到大脑内的植入物，并让它们相互沟通，这样可以将完好无损的运动信号从运动皮质中取出并发送到脊髓，下面的大部分线路应该是完好的，例如由汽车事故、摩托车事故或枪伤所引起的受伤水平。这样就有可能用这种方式重新将大脑连接到身体上，这并非不可能。也许在一些不远的未来，Nirlink将能够重新连接某人的身体与大脑。

And here I just want to flag the 100 years or more of incredible work by basic scientists the names that I learned about in my textbooks as a graduate student were like George opolis and that won't mean anything to anyone unless you're a neuroscientist but George opolis performed some of the first sophisticated recordings out of motor cortex just simply asking like what sorts of electrical patterns are present in motor cortex as an animal or human moves a limb. Krishna Shanoi being another major pioneer in this area and many others and just really highlighting the fact that basic research where. A exploration of neural tissue is carried out at the level of anatomy and physiology really sets down the pavement on the runway to do this sorts of big clinical.
在这里，我想强调一下100年甚至更久的基础科学家所做出的不可思议的工作，这些人名在我读研时学习的课本中，像乔治·奥波利斯等等，这些名字对于非神经科学家来说毫无意义。但是，乔治·奥波利斯对于从大脑运动区进行首次系统记录以及动物或人类运动肢体时存在哪些电学模式等问题的探索，是当时一个非常重要的先驱。克里希纳·沙诺伊是该领域的另一个重要先驱，还有许多其他的科学家。这再次强调了基础研究，通过对神经组织进行解剖和生理学水平的探索，为开展大型临床研究奠定了基础。

Expeditions that you all at Nirlink are doing yeah can't be said enough that you know we broadly speaking industry sometimes are and sometimes stand on the shoulders of academic giants they were the real pioneers that they they were involved in the grind for years in an unglorious unglamorous way no stock option. And you know the reward for all the hard work is a paper at the end of the day that is read by you know dozens of people and so you know they were selfless academic researchers that that made all this possible and we all humanity and Nirlink I owe them a massive debt of gratitude for all the hard work that they've done and continue to do I agree.
纳林克正在进行的考察活动，不得不说，我们这个行业有时候站在学术界的巨人肩上，有时候则是创造历史的先驱。这些真正先锋们经历了无数年的艰苦探索，没有股票期权，也没有荣耀的外表，在学术研究的道路上一路前行。他们的奖励是一篇论文，最终也只会被几十人阅读。因此，我感激这些无私的学者们所做的一切，是他们铸就了人类发展的丰硕成果，也是我们纳林克公司深深地欠他们人情。我完全同意这个观点。

I'd like to just take a brief moment and thank one of our podcast sponsors which is inside tracker inside trackers a personalized nutrition platform that analyze this data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. Long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that blood work is the only way that you can monitor the markers such as hormone markers lipids metabolic factors etc the impact your media and long term health.
我想花点时间感谢我们播客赞助商之一——InsideTracker。InsideTracker是一个个性化的营养平台，通过分析您的血液和DNA数据来帮助您更好地了解自己的身体，实现健康目标。我一直坚信定期进行血液检查，这是因为血液检查是您能够监测标记物（如激素标记物，血脂代谢因子等）对您的近期和长期健康影响的唯一方法。

One major challenge with blood work however is that most of the time it does not come back with any information about what to do in order to move the values for hormones metabolic factors lipids etc into the ranges that you want with inside tracker. Changing those values becomes very straightforward because it has a personalized dashboard that you can use to address the nutrition based behavior based supplement based approaches that you can use in order to move those values into the ranges that are optimal for you your vitality and your longevity inside tracker now includes a measurement of apolipoprotein B so called apob in their ultimate plan apob is a key marker of cardiovascular health and therefore there's extreme value to knowing your apob levels.
然而，血液检测面临的一个主要挑战是，大多数情况下它并没有提供关于如何将激素代谢因子、脂质等的数值移至您在Inside Tracker上期望范围的信息。但借助个性化的仪表板，您可以采取基于营养、行为和补品的方法，非常简单地改变这些数值。现在，Inside Tracker的终极套餐还包括apo蛋白B的测量，它是卡路里健康的关键指标，因此了解自己的apo蛋白B水平有极大的价值。

If you'd like to try inside tracker you can go to inside tracker dot com slash huberman to get 20% off any of inside trackers plans again that's inside tracker dot com slash huberman to get 20% off.
如果你想尝试Inside Tracker，可以去inside tracker点com斜杆huberman以获得Inside Tracker计划中的任何一项的20%折扣，再次提醒一下是inside tracker点com斜杆huberman以获得20%的折扣。

Along lines of augmentation early on in some of the public discussions about neural link that I overheard between Elon and various podcast hosts etc there were some lofty ideas set out that I think are still very much in play in people's minds.
在我偶然听到埃隆和一些播客主持人等人在公开讨论神经连结的早期阶段，有一些雄心勃勃的想法被提出，我认为这些想法仍然在人们的心中占有重要地位。这些想法主要围绕着神经连结的扩展展开。

Things like for instance electrical stimulation of the hippocampus that you so appropriately have worn on your shirt today so for those. Yeah beautiful looks like either it looks like a goal G or a call rendition of the hippocampus yeah translates to see horse and it's an area of the brain that's involved in learning and memory and among other things.
比如，像你今天展示在衣服上的海马体电刺激这样的东西，可以帮助人们学习和记忆，是大脑中涉及到该功能区域的一部分。它的翻译为“海马体”，就像一个看起来很美的独角兽或者是海马体的图案。

There was this idea thrown out that chip or chips could be implanted the hippocampus that would allow greater than normal memory abilities perhaps that's one idea sure another idea that heard about in these discussions was for instance that you would have some chips in your brain and I would have some chips in my brain and you and I could just sit here. Look at the looking at each other or not nodding or shaking our heads and essentially hear each other's thoughts which sounds outrageous but of course why not why should we constrain ourselves to as our good friend Eddie Chang and was a neurosurgeon who was already on this podcast once before said speech is just the shaping of breath as it exits our lungs incredible really when you think about it but.
有一个想法提出，可以将芯片植入海马体，这将使记忆能力超过正常水平。或许这是一个想法，当然还有另一个想法，在这些讨论中听到的是，例如，你的大脑里有几个芯片，我的大脑里也有几个芯片，你和我可以坐在这里。看着彼此，或不点头或摇头，并且实质上听清彼此的思想。这听起来太离奇了，但是为什么不呢？为什么我们要局限自己？就像我们的好朋友Eddie Chang所说，他是一位神经外科医生，之前已经在这个播客节目中发表过演讲，他说，言语只是我们呼出肺部气息的塑形。当你考虑到这一点时，这真是不可思议。

We don't necessarily need speech to hear and understand each other's thoughts because the neural signals that produce that shaping of the lungs come from some intention you know I have some idea although my not seem like it about what I'm going to say next so is that possible that we could sit here.
我们并不一定需要语言来听懂对方的想法，因为塑造肺部的神经信号来自您知道的某种意图，尽管可能看起来不太一样，但我有一些想法，关于我接下来要说什么，所以我们能在这里坐着，这种可能性存在。

And just hear each other's thoughts and and also how would we restrict with the other person good here yeah well so absolutely I mean think about. The fact that we could do this right now if you pulled out your phone and started texting me on my phone and I look down and started texting you we would be communicating without looking at each other or talking.
只是听到对方的想法，同时我们会如何与对方保持良好的沟通呢？是的，如果你拿出手机开始给我发短信，我看着手机开始回复你，我们就可以不用看着彼此或交谈来沟通，这就是现在我们可以做到的。

Shifting that function from a phone to an implanted device it requires no magic advanced no leap forward its technology we already know how to do if we say put a device in that allows you control keyboard and mouse which is our stated intention for our first human clinical trial or I and against I'm deliberately interrupting or.
将该功能从手机转移到植入式设备上，并不需要什么神奇的先进技术或前进的跨越，这是我们已经知道如何做的技术。如果我们将一个设备放入其中，允许您控制键盘和鼠标，这是我们对我们的第一个人类临床试验的声明意图，我会支持或反对，我是故意中断或。

I can text an entire team of people so simultaneously and they can text me and in theory I could have a bunch of thoughts and. 5 10 50 people could hear right or probably more to their preference they could talk to me yeah and so you know texting each other with our brains is maybe an uninspiring rendition of this but it's not very difficult to imagine the implementation of.
我可以同时给一个团队发短信，他们也可以回复我。理论上，我可以分享一堆想法并让5、10、50个人听到，或者更多，根据他们的喜好来与我交流。通过我们的大脑来互相发短信可能并不是很有灵感，但实现起来并不难想象。

Same device in a more verbally focused area of the brain that allows you to more naturally speak the thoughts that you're thinking and have me have them rendered into speech that I can hear. You know maybe via a bone conducting implant so silently here or not silently I could let's say I was getting off the plane and I want to let somebody at home know that I had arrived I might be able to think in my mind.
同一设备被放置在大脑一个更偏向语言的区域，让你更自然地说出你正在思考的想法，我可以听到你的语音。例如通过一种骨传导植入物，无声或有声地告诉我家里的某人我已经到达了，比如我下飞机时，我可能会在心中思考。

Think their first name which might queue up a device that would then play my voice to them just got off the plane I'm going to grab my bag and then I'll give you a call right on their home Alexa right.
想象一下，他们的名字可能会排队等待一个设备，然后播放我的声音给他们，他们刚刚下飞机。我要去拿我的行李，然后就会在他们家里的Alexa上给你打电话。

So that's all possible meaning we know the origin of the neural signals right gives rise to speech we know the different mechanical and neural apparatus like the cochlea. Your drums etc that. Transduced sound waves into electrical signals right essentially all the pieces are known we're just really talking about.
这些是我们所知道的有关神经信号起源以及导致语言的所有可能意义。我们知道不同的机械和神经仪器，例如耳蜗和鼓膜等，将声波转化为电信号。基本上，我们已经了解所有的部件。我们现在真正关心的只是如何使这些部件协调工作。

Refining it yeah refining it and reconfiguring it is it's it's I mean it's not an easy problem but it's really an engineering problem rather than a neuroscience problem for that for that use case you know for a nonverbal communication you might say.
“对它进行精细化和重新配置不是一件容易的事情，但这实际上是一个工程问题，而不是一个神经科学问题，特别是对于非语言交流这种应用情况而言。”

That's a solved problem in a very crude disjointed way so some labs have solved you know part one of it some labs have solved part two of it there are products out there that solve you know say the implanted bone conduction part of it for the for the deaf community.
这是一个非常粗糙、断片式的解决办法，因此一些实验室已经解决了其中的一部分，有些实验室则解决了另一部分。有一些产品已经面世，解决了聋人社区中植入式骨导技术的一部分问题。

There are there are no implementations I'm aware of that are pulling all that together into one product that's a streamline package from end to end I think that's a few years down the road.
我所知道的没有任何一个实现能够将所有这些功能都集成在一个方便的产品中，并且从始至终都能流畅运行。我认为这需要几年的时间才能实现。

We have some hints of how easily or poorly people will adapt to these it's called the novel transformations a few years ago I was on Instagram and I saw a post from a woman her name is Kassar Jacobsen and she is deaf since birth and can sign into some extent can read lips but she was.
我们有一些线索，可以了解人们对这些所谓的新型转变的适应程度。几年前，我在Instagram上看到了一位名叫Kassar Jacobsen的女士发布的一篇帖子。她自出生以来就是聋人，能够进行一定程度的手语和读唇术。

Discussing a neocensory so this is a device that translate sound in the environment into touch sensations on her hand or wrist she's a. Admire of birds and all things avian and I reached out to her about this device is very curious because this is a very interesting use case of of neuroplasticity in the sensory domain which is a fascination of mine and she said that yes indeed it afforded her novel experiences now when walking past say pigeons in the park if they were to make some go go go whatever sounds that pigeons make that she would feel those sounds.
讨论一个新型感官设备，它能将环境中的声音转化为手或手腕上的触感。她非常喜欢鸟和所有与鸟类有关的事物，我向她询问了这个设备，因为这是感官领域神经可塑性的一个非常有趣的使用案例，而这正是我的研究领域。她说，确实这为她带来了新奇的体验，现在当她在公园里走过鸽子时，如果它们发出吱吱的声音，她也能感受到这些声音。

And that indeed it enriched her experience of those birds in ways that obviously wouldn't otherwise I haven't followed up with her recently to find out whether or not ongoing use of the neocensory has made for a better worse or kind of equivalent experience of avians in the world which for her is is a near obsession so she delights in them.
这实际上丰富了她观察那些鸟类时的体验，而这种体验很明显是在其他情况下不可能有的。我最近没有继续跟进她是否使用了这种新感觉设备，是否会使她在观察世界里的鸟类体验变得更好、更差或者差不多相当。对于她而言，这是一种近乎痴迷的兴趣，她为此感到欣喜。

What are your thoughts about in a peripheral devices like that periphery peripheral meaning outside of the the skull no requirement for a surgery that do you think that there's a more immediate or even a. That just generally potent use case for peripheral devices and do you think that those are going to be used more readily before the kind of brain surgery requiring devices are used yeah certainly the barrier to entry is lower the barrier to adoption is low you know if you're making a tactile glove that's hard to say no to when you can slip it on and slip it off and not not have to get your skin cut at all.
你对外设设备（如外部神经刺激仪）有何看法？外设指的是头骨以外的部分，无需进行手术。你认为这些外设有更直接、甚至更强大的应用场景吗？你认为这些外设会比需要大脑手术的设备更容易被广泛使用吗？的确，进入门槛低，采用门槛也低。如果你制造了一个触感手套，那么很难拒绝它，因为你可以轻松地戴上和脱下，完全不需要切开皮肤。

Well you know again there's no perfect measure of the efficacy of a device of one device compared to another especially across modalities but one one way that you can start to compare apples to oranges is bit rate you know useful information in or out of the brain as you know transformed into digital data. And so you can put a single number on that and you have to ask when you look at a device like that is what is the bit rate in what is the bit rate out how much information are you able to usefully convey into the system and get out of the system into the body into the brain and I think there's what we've seen in the early stabs at this is that there's a very low threshold for bit rate on some of the devices that are trying to avoid you know just to get it.
你知道，对于设备的有效性，尤其是在跨领域比较时，并没有完美的度量方式。但是，有一种比较方法可以让你从比较苹果和橙子的角度出发，那就是比特率。你知道，任何有用的进入或离开大脑的信息都会被转化成数字数据，因此，你可以用一个数字来衡量它。当你看一台设备时，你必须问自己：它的比特率是多少？它有多少信息可以传递到系统中，并有效地输出到身体和大脑中去？我认为，在这方面我们所看到的初步尝试表明，有些设备的比特率阈值非常低，它们试图避免只是得到数据。

To avoid you know direct brain surgery could you perhaps say what you just said but in a way that maybe people who aren't as familiar with thinking about bit rates might might be able to digest there I'm referring to myself I mean I understand bit rate I understand that adding a new channel of information is just that adding information are you saying it's important to understand whether or not that new information provides for novel function or experience and to work with the brain. And then you know that's the kind of thing that you can do is to get a new channel or experience and to and to what extent is the the newness of that valid and adaptive well I'm saying more.
为了避免直接进行脑部手术，你能否用一种更容易理解比特率的方式说一下刚刚所说的？我指的是我自己，我虽然了解比特率，也知道增加一个信息通道只是增加信息，但你是说这个新信息是否能带来新的功能或经验，并与大脑一起工作非常重要。然后，你能知道这种新的通道或体验的新鲜程度和适应能力到达了什么程度。我的意思还有更多。

It's hard to measure utility in this space it's hard to you know put a single metric single number on how useful a technology is one crude way to try to get at that is is. Back in the days of dial up modems the bit rate of your modem was you know 56 K or 96. I can still hear the sound of the dial up in the background. That was a bit rate that thankfully kept steadily going up and up and up your your internet service provider gives you a number that is the maximum usable data that you can transmit back and forth from the internet that's a useful way to think about these assistive devices.
在这个领域中，评估实用性很难，很难用单一的指标或数字来衡量技术的实用价值。尝试获取实用性的一种粗略的方法是回到拨号调制解调器的时代，你的调制解调器的比特率是56K或96K，我仍然能听到拨号调制解调器的声音。这是一个比特率，幸运的是它一直在不断上升，你的互联网服务提供商会给你一个数字，表示你能够在互联网上发送和接收的最大可用数据量，这是一种有用的思考辅助设备的方式。

How much information are you able to get in into the brain and out of the brain usefully and right now that that number is very small even compared to the old modems. But you have to ask yourself when you're looking at a technology what's the ceiling what's the theoretical maximum and for a lot of these technologies that theoretical maximum is is very low, disappointingly low even if it's perfectly executed and perfectly developed as a technology and I think the thing that attracts a lot of us to a technology like knurling is that the ceiling is incredibly high.
你现在能有效地将多少信息输入和输出到大脑，即使与早期调制解调器相比，这个数字也非常少。但是当你看着一种技术时，你必须问自己，它的上限是什么，理论最大值是多少。对于许多这些技术，理论最大值非常低，即使完美执行和完美开发技术，也会让人失望。我认为吸引我们大多数人关注像 knurling 这样的技术，是因为其上限非常高。

There's no obvious reason that you can't interface with millions of neurons as this technology is refined and developed further so that's the kind of wide band you know high bandwidth. Brain interface that you want to develop if you're talking about. And a semantic prosthetic and AI assistant to your cognitive abilities. You know the more sci fi things that we think about in the coming decades.
在这项技术得到改善和进一步发展的情况下，与数百万神经元进行接口没有明显的障碍，这是你所想要开发的宽带高带宽脑接口。还有可以辅助你认知能力的语义义肢和人工智能助手等更科幻的事物，在未来几十年中我们会越来越多地思考这些事情。

So that it's an important caveat when you're evaluating these technologies you really want it to be something that you can expand off into the sci fi. So let's take this a step further because as you're saying this I'm realizing that people have been doing exactly what neural link is trying to do now for a very long time let me give you an example.
这是一条需要注意的重要提示，当你评估这些技术时，你真正想要的是一些可以扩展到科幻领域的东西。所以让我们深入了解一下，当你这么说的时候，我意识到人们很长时间以来一直在做的事情正是神经联接现在试图做的，让我给你举一个例子。 意思：在评估这些技术时，要注意其可扩展性，能否引领我们进入科幻世界。举例来说，神经联接现在试图实现的，早已有人尝试了很长时间。

People who are blind who have no pattern vision have used canes for a very long time. Now the cane is not a chip, it's not an electrode and it's not neocensory right, none of that stuff. What it is is essentially a stick that has an interface with a surface, so it's swept back and forth across the ground and translating what would otherwise be visual cues into some sense recuse.
那些完全失去视力的盲人已经使用盲杖很久了。现在的盲杖不是芯片，不是电极，也不是新感觉，它仅仅是一根与表面相接触的棍子，它在地面上反复摆动，将本应是视觉信号的东西转化为某种感官信号。

And we know that blind people are very good at understanding even when they are approaching say a curb edge because they are integrating that information from the tip of the cane up through their semantics sensory cortex and their motor cortex with other things like the changes in the wind and sound as a round corner and you're imagining like a corner in San Francisco downtown way you get to the corner it's a completely different set of auditory cues.
我们知道盲人在接近路缘石时非常擅长理解，因为他们将手杖尖端的信息与语义感觉皮层和运动皮层中的其他信息整合起来，比如风的变化和在拐角处的声音，想象一下旧金山市中心的某个角落，在走到拐角处，你听到的声音会完全不同。

Very often we know in this because my laboratory worked on visual prayer for a long time I talked to a lot of blind people use different devices navigate the world that they aren't aware of the fact that they're integrating these other cues but they nonetheless do them subconsciously right. And in doing so get pretty good at navigating with a cane. Now cane isn't perfect but you can imagine the other form of of navigating as a blind person which is to just attach yourself or attached to you another nervous system the best that we know being a dog.
很多时候，因为我的实验室长期致力于视觉祈祷项目，我和很多盲人交流过，他们使用不同的设备在世界中导航，他们并没有意识到自己在整合这些其他提示，但他们仍然下意识地这样做。这样做使他们成为用拐杖导航的专家。现在，拐杖并不完美，但你可以想象另一种盲人导航的方式，那就是将自己或你附着在另一种神经系统上，最好的就是狗。

A sighted dog that can cue you again with stopping at a curbs edge or even if there's some individuals that might seem a little sketchy dogs are also very good at sensing different arousal states and others threat danger I mean they're exquisite right so you're what we're really talking about is taking a cane or about another biological system essentially whole nervous system and saying this other nervous systems job is to get you to navigate more safely through the world.
一只有视力的狗，可以通过停在路边的路缘石上来提醒你，甚至在一些看起来有点不靠谱的人附近，狗也很擅长感知不同的兴奋状态和其他威胁危险。它们非常精细，所以我们真正讨论的是拿一根手杖或另一个生物系统——整个神经系统，让这个系统的工作是让你更安全地在世界中导航。

In some sense what neural link is trying to do is that but with robotics to insert them and chips which raises the question we're going to say finally a question the question is this we hear about BMI brain machine interface which is really what neural specializes in we also hear about AI another example where there's great promise and great fear we hear about machine learning as well to what extent can these brain machine interfaces.
从某种意义上说，神经链接试图通过机器人技术插入芯片来实现这一目标，这引出了一个问题，我们最终要提出的问题是，我们听说过脑机接口（BMI），这正是神经专注的领域，我们也听说过人工智能（AI），在这个领域，既有巨大的前景，也有巨大的恐惧。我们也听说过机器学习，那么这些脑机接口能够达到什么程度呢？

Learn the same way a seeing eye dog would learn but unlike a seeing eye dog. Continue to learn over time and get better and better and better because it's also listening to the nervous system that it's trying to support put simply what is the role for AI and machine learning in the type of work that you're doing that's a great question.
像导盲犬一样学习，但不同于导盲犬，随着时间推移不断学习，并变得越来越好，因为它也在聆听它试图支持的神经系统，简而言之，人工智能和机器学习在你正在进行的工作中的角色是什么。这是一个非常好的问题。

I think you know it goes both ways basically what you're doing is taking a very crude software intelligence I would say not exactly a full full blown AI but some well designed software that can adapt to changes in firing of the brain and you're coupling it with another form of intelligence a human intelligence and you're allowing the two to learn each other so undoubtedly the human that has a neuralink device will get better at using it over time undoubtedly the software that the neuralink engineers have written will adapt to the firing patterns that that the device is able to record and over time focus in on meaningful signals toward movement.
我觉得你明白这是双向的。基本上，你正在使用非常基础的软件智能（我不会说它是完整的 AI），它可以适应脑部放电变化，然后将它与另一种智能——人类智能结合，并让它们相互学习。毫无疑问，使用神经链接设备的人会随着时间的推移变得更加熟练。神经链接的工程师编写的软件也会适应设备能够记录的放电图案，并在时间的推移中专注于有意义的运动信号。

So if a neuron is fire high firing rate when you intend to move the mouse cursor up and to the right it doesn't know that when it starts when you first put this in it's just a random series of signals as far as the chip knows but you start correlating it with what the person what you know the person wants to do as expressed in a series of games so you you assume that you know that the person wants to move the mouse on the screen to the target that's shown because you tell them that's the goal and so you start correlating the activity that you record when they're moving toward an up and right target on a screen with that firing pattern and similarly for up and left down and left down right and so you develop a model semi intelligently in the software for what the person is intending to do and let the person run wild with it for a while and they start to get better at using the model presented to them by the by the software and as expressed by the mouse moving or not moving properly on the screen right.
因此，如果一个神经元在你想把鼠标光标移动向上和向右时发生高频率的火灾，它不知道当你最初输入这个时它的开始是一个随机的信号序列，就芯片而言，但你开始将它与该人想要做的事情（在一系列游戏中表达）相关联，因此，你假定你知道该人想要将鼠标移动到屏幕上所显示的目标，因为你告诉他那是目标，所以你开始将他们向上和向右的运动时记录的活动与那个火灾模式相关联，类似地，对于向上和向左、向下和向左、向下和向右，你在软件中半智能地开发出一个模型来指示该人打算做什么并让他们自由运用一段时间，他们开始更好地使用软件提供给他们的模型，通过鼠标在屏幕上移动或不移动来表达。

So it's imagine a scenario where you're asking somebody to play piano but the sound that comes out of each key randomly shifts over time very difficult problem but a human brain is good enough with the aid of software to solve that problem and map well enough to a semi-stable state that they're going to know how to use that mouse you can do that. That mouse even when they say turn the device off for the night come back to the next day and some of the signals have shifted. You're describing this I'm recalling a recent experience.
想象一种场景，你让别人弹钢琴，但每个键发出的声音会随机地随着时间而变化，这是一个非常棘手的问题，但在软件的帮助下，人脑足够强大，可以解决这个问题并映射出一个半稳定的状态，使他们知道如何使用鼠标。即使他们说把设备关掉一整晚，到了第二天有些信号发生了变化，你正在描述这个问题时，我想起了最近的经历。

I got one of these rowers you know for to exercise and I am well aware that there's a proper roast stroke and there's an improper roast rock and. most everybody including me who's never been coached and growing. It's something that gets on this thing and pushes with their legs and pulls with their arms and back and it's some mix of incorrect and maybe a smidgen of correct type execution.
我买了一个划船机来锻炼身体，我知道划船有正确和错误的方法。大多数人包括我自己都没有接受过专业指导，只是通过腿部推动和手臂和背部拉动的混合方式来使用。这可能是部分正确和主要错误的执行方式。

There's a function within the rower that allows you to play a game where you can actually every roast stroke you generate arrows toward a dart board and it knows whether or not you're generating the appropriate forces at the given segment of the row the initial pole when you're leaning back etc. And adjust the trajectory of the arrows so that when you do a proper roast stroke it gets closer to a bullseye and it's very satisfying because you now have a visual feedback that's unrelated to this the kinds of instructions that one would expect like oh you know hinge your hip a bit more or you know splay your knees a bit more reach more with your arms or pull first with your back.
划船机内置了一种功能，可以让您玩一个游戏，在游戏中，每一次你划桨，箭头会指向飞镖靶板，并且它知道你是否在划船的特定环节（比如倾身向后时）产生了适当的力量。它会调整箭头的轨迹，以便当你能够做出一个适当的划桨动作时，箭头能够更接近靶心。这是非常令人满意的，因为您现在有一个视觉反馈，与您所期望的类型的指令（如，弯曲臀部或者伸直双腿，延伸双臂或先以背部为主力）完全不同。

All the rowers are probably cringing as I said this because they're realizing the what is exactly the point which is I don't know how to row but over time. Simply by paying attention to whether or not the arrow is hitting the bullseye or not more or less frequently you can improve your roast stroke and get as I understand pretty close to optimal roast stroke. In the same way that if you had a coach there telling you hey do this and do that what we're really talking about here is neuro biofeedback sure so is that analogy similar to what you're describing that's a great analogy you know humans are really good at learning.
所有的划手们现在可能都在退缩，因为他们意识到了我的确切意图，即我不知道如何划船，但是随着时间的推移，通过注意箭头是否经常打中靶心，你可以改善你的划船技术，我理解的是，你可以接近最佳的划船姿势。就像如果你有一个教练在告诉你怎么做，我们真正谈论的是神经反馈训练，这个比喻与你所描述的相似，这是一个很好的比喻，你知道，人类非常擅长学习。

How to play games in software so video games are an awesome platform for us to use as a training environment for people to get better at controlling these things in fact it's it's the default on the obvious way to do it. As to have people and monkeys play video games do you play video games yeah sure which video games. Let's see I you know play old ones I'm a little nostalgic so I like the old Blizzard games starcraft and warcraft oh my I don't even know those I remember the first apple computers I mean I go I hold you. 43 okay 44 now as of a few days ago happy birthday so we're a little bit offset there yeah I can recall Mike Tyson's punch out like the original Nintendo games. I can argue but the game so the games you're describing I don't recall that my understanding is that the newer games are far more sophisticated in some respects I did recently find time to play cyberpunk which was really satisfying and maybe appropriate.
如何在软件中玩游戏？视频游戏是一个绝妙的平台，可以用作训练环境，帮助人们更好地控制这些东西，实际上这是一个默认的显而易见的方法。至于让人类和猴子玩视频游戏，你玩视频游戏吗？是的，当然，你玩哪些游戏？我玩一些老游戏，有点怀旧，所以我喜欢古老的暴雪游戏星际争霸和魔兽争霸，哦我的天，我甚至知道第一台苹果电脑。我今年43岁，现在已经44了，几天前过生日，我们有些失调。我还记得那种原始的任天堂游戏《迈克·泰森的上司》，但是你描述的游戏，我不太记得了，我了解到新款游戏在某些方面要复杂得多，最近我真的找到时间玩《赛博朋克》，感觉非常满足，也许是适当的选择。

It's a game where the characters are all fully modded out with cybernetic implants. Perfect but you know the route of the game is run around a shooting so maybe not so different from you know duck hunt or whatever from our childhoods. Reason to ask about video games is there's been some controversy as to whether or not they are making young brains better or worse and I think some of the work from Adam gazelle is lab at UCSF and other laboratories have shown that actually provided that. Children in particular and adults are also spending time in normal face to what's called them more traditional face to face interactions that video games can actually make a nervous systems that is people much more proficient learning and motor execution sure visual detection. And on and on yeah there's some work showing that surgeons are better if they play video games so I try to squeeze some in as a you know a professional development activity great great well I'm sure you're getting cheers from the.
这是一个游戏，人物都被全副修改为了机械植入物。虽然游戏的主要内容是跑来跑去并进行射击，但可能和我们小时候玩的“打鸭子”等游戏并没有太大的区别。之所以提到视频游戏，是因为有一些争议，即它们是否会让年轻人的大脑更强或更弱。Adam Gazelle在加州大学旧金山分校实验室中的一些工作以及其他实验室的工作表明，事实上，只要孩子们特别是成年人在正常的面对面互动环境中花费时间，视频游戏可以让神经系统更加熟练地学习和进行运动执行，视觉探测等技能。等等，是的，有一些研究表明，如果外科医生玩视频游戏，他们会更加优秀。所以我尝试把它们作为专业发展活动。嗯，非常好，我相信你会从中受益匪浅。

From those that like video games out there and some of the parents who are trying to get their kids to play fewer video games are cringing but that's okay we'll let them settle their familial disputes among themselves. Let's talk about pigs sure. Neural link has been quite generous I would say in announcing their discoveries and their goals and I want to highlight this because I think it's quite unusual for a company to do this. I'm probably an earn a few enemies by saying this despite the fact that I've always owned apple devices and from the south bay you know the apple design team is notoriously cryptic about what they're going to do next or when the next phone or computer is going to come.
那些喜欢视频游戏的人以及试图让孩子减少玩视频游戏的一些家长可能会感到不满，但没关系，让他们自己解决家庭争端吧。现在我们谈谈猪吧。神经连接公司宣布了他们的发现和目标，我认为这是相当不寻常的，他们非常慷慨。虽然我一直使用苹果设备，并且来自南湾，你知道苹果的设计团队往往对他们接下来要做什么或者下一款手机或电脑什么时候推出非常神秘，但我可能因此得罪了一些人。

Out is is is vaulted to a serious extent. Neural link has been pretty open about their goals right with the understanding that goals change and have to change. And one of the things that they've done which I think is marvelous is they've held online symposia where you and. Other colleagues of mine from the neuroscience community Dan Adams who have tremendous respect for and Elon and others they're at neural link have shared some of the progress that they've made in experimental animals. I'm highlighting this because I think if one takes a step back I mean just for most people to.
Out is is is 梯形箱内部被严重开发。神经链接公司一直非常公开地表达他们的目标，并理解目标是可以改变的。其中一件我认为非常出色的事情是他们举行了在线座谈会，我和我的同事们来自神经科学界，如我非常尊敬的丹·亚当斯和埃隆等等。他们在神经链接公司分享了在实验动物中取得的一些进展。我强调这一点，因为我认为如果我们退后一步，大多数人都能意识到，这是一个令人印象深刻的成就，其对于我们更好地理解大脑和神经系统的功能是非常重要的。

Know about and realize that there's experimentation on animals and. plantation of electrodes and so on is itself a pretty bold move because that understandably evokes some strong emotions. In people and in some people evokes extremely strong emotions sure.
了解并意识到对动物进行实验和种植电极等行为本身就是一个相当大胆的举动，因为这理所当然地引起了一些强烈的情感。一些人会因此而产生非常强烈的情感反应。

Neural link did one such symposium where they showed implant devices in pigs right then they did another one you guys did another one where it was implant devices in monkeys right I assume at some point there will be one of these public symposia where the implant devices will be in a human.
神经连接团队举办了一次研讨会，在那里他们展示了在猪身上植入的装置，然后又有另一次，你们又在猴子身上进行了植入设备的实验，我猜有一天会有一次这样的公开研讨会，植入设备将会在人类身上实现。

What was the rationale for using pigs I'm told pigs are very nice creatures yeah I'm told that they are quite smart right and. For all my years as a neuroscientist and having worked admittedly on every species from mice to cuddle fish to humans to hamsters, to you know, I confess various carnivore species which I no longer do, I work on humans now for various reasons.
使用猪的原因是什么？我听说猪是非常友善的动物，对吗？而且，作为一名神经科学家，我已经研究了从小鼠到鱿鱼、人类、仓鼠，以及我承认曾经研究过一些食肉动物，但我现在只在人类方面研究，出于各种原因。

I never in my life thought I would see a implant device in the cortex of a pig sure why work on pigs yeah well let me let me say first and neuralink is almost entirely composed of animal loving people the people at NERLINK are obsessive animal lovers there are signs up all around the office you know spontaneously put up by people within the organization you know talking about how we want to save animals we want to protect animals.
我从未想过会看到在猪皮层上植入装置，但为什么要在猪身上进行实验呢？首先，Neuralink这个组织几乎完全由充满爱心的动物爱好者组成。他们的办公室周围挂着标语，这些标语突然出现在组织内部的人们，说我们想拯救动物，我们想保护动物。

If there was any possible way to help people the way we want to help people without using animals in our research we would do it it's just not known how to do that right now and so we are completely restricted to making advances to getting a device approval through the FDA by first showing. That it's incredibly safe in animals and so as is the case for any medical advancement essentially I do want to highlight this that the the FDA and the other governing bodies.
如果有任何可能的途径可以在不使用动物作为实验对象的情况下帮助人类，我们一定会去做，只是目前还不知道如何做到这一点，因此我们完全被限制在展示在动物身上非常安全的情况下获得设备批准，并取得医学进步的先决条件。因此，像任何医学进步一样，我想强调的是，美国食品和药品管理局和其他主管机构必须审查和批准每一项医学疗法，以确保它们非常安全和有效。

Oversea these types of experiments and ensure that they're done with a minimum of discomfort to the animals of course but I think there's an inherent species in most humans not all some people truly see equivalence between a lizard and a human lizard life being equivalent human life most human beings I think in particular human beings who themselves are loved ones that are suffering from diseases that they hope could be cured at some point.
在国外进行这些实验时，请确保动物受到最少的不适，当然这是必须的。但我认为大多数人类天生具有一种本能，不是所有人，但有些人确实认为蜥蜴和人类应该平等。他们认为蜥蜴的生命价值与人类的生命价值相等。我认为，尤其是那些自己的亲人正在饱受疾病之苦，他们希望在某些时候能够治愈的人类，大多数人类都有这种本能。

View themselves as species and feel that if you have to work on a biological system in order to solve the problem working on non-human animals first makes sense to most people sure but certainly, there's a category of people that feels very strongly in the opposite direction.
许多人认为自己是物种的一部分，认为如果想要解决生物系统的问题，先研究非人类动物是合理的。但当然也有一些人持强烈反对意见。

Sure and you know I think we would probably be having a very different conversation around animal research if we weren't you know we as a species we as a culture weren't just casually. We're not only slaughtering millions of animals to eat them every single day and so that is a background against which the relatively minuscule number of animals used in research it becomes almost impossible to understand why someone would point to that ridiculously small number of animals used in research.
如果我们不是一种如此随意地屠宰数以百万计的动物来食用的物种，我想我们关于动物研究的讨论可能会有所不同。所以相对于每天用于食用的动物数量，用于研究的相对微不足道的数量就变得几乎无法理解，为什么有人会把注意力放在这个数量上。

When the vast vast majority of animals that humans use. And their lives are done for food or for for for or for these other reasons that people you know have historically used animals so we in in that context we do animal research because we have to there's no other way around it if tomorrow.
在人类使用的动物中，绝大多数是为了食物、材料或其他历史原因而被使用的。因此，我们进行动物研究是在这个背景下进行的，因为我们必须这样做，否则就没有其他方法了。

Laws were changed and the FDA said okay you can do some of this early experimentation in willing human participants that would be a very interesting option I think there be a lot of people that would step up and say yes I'm willing to participate in early stage clinical research you already volunteered. Yeah and I wouldn't be alone and that you know as a potential way that animals could maybe be spared being unwilling participants in this on that note to whatever extent possible I think Nurlink goes.
法律发生了改变，FDA也表示可以在愿意参与的人类受试者身上进行一些早期实验，这将是一个非常有趣的选择。我认为有很多人会站出来说：“是的，我愿意参加早期临床研究”，你已经自愿加入了。是的，我不会是唯一一个，这也是避免动物成为不愿意参与者的一种潜在方式，在这一点上，我认为尽可能地去推进Nurlink。

Really really far much much farther than anyone I've ever heard of any organization I've ever heard of any anything I've ever seen to give the animals agency in every aspect of the research.
真的真的比我听说过的任何组织、任何事情还要远得多，让动物在研究的每个方面都拥有代理权。

We have just an incredible team of people looking out for the animals and trying to design the experiments such that there is purely opt in as humanly possible no animal is ever compelled to participate in experiments beyond the surgery itself so if say on a given day our star monkey pager doesn't want to play video games for smoothie no one forces him to ever this is a very important point.
我们拥有一个非常出色的团队，致力于保护动物并设计实验，以便尽可能地让动物自愿参与，除了手术本身，没有任何动物被迫参与到实验中去。所以，比如说在某一天，我们的明星猴子佩吉不想玩视频游戏或喝冰沙，那么没有人会强迫他参与。这一点非常重要。

And I want to. Q people to really what Matt is saying here obviously the animals are being researched on for neural links so they don't get to opt into opt out of the experiment right but what he saying is that they play these games during which neural signals are measured from the brain because they have electrodes and plant in their brain through a surgery that thankfully to the brain is painless right no pain receptors in the brain.
我想让Q群体真正理解马特在这里表达的意思，显然，这些动物正在接受神经联系的研究，所以他们不能选择加入或退出实验。但他所说的是，它们进行这些游戏时，从大脑中测量神经信号，因为它们的大脑通过手术植入了电极，这对大脑来说是无痛的，因为大脑没有痛觉受体。

And are playing for reward this is very different very different than the typical scenario in laboratories around the world where people experiment on mice monkeys some cases pigs or other species in which the typical arrangement is to water to pride the animals we never do that and then have the animals work for their daily ration of water right.
他们正在为奖励而参与比起全球实验室通常对老鼠、猴子、有些情况下是猪或其他品种进行实验的情况，这是非常不同的。典型的情况是提供水或食物来诱使动物工作，但我们从不这样做。

And some people are hearing this and probably think wow that's barbaric and here I'm not trying to point fingers at the people doing that kind of work I just think it's important that people understand how the work is done. In order to motivate an animal. To play a video game right depriving them of something that they yearn for is a very efficient way to do that we don't do that we they have free and full access to food this entire time so they aren't hungry they aren't thirsty.
有些人可能会听到这些话，并认为这样做是野蛮的。我不是要指责那些从事这种工作的人，只是认为让人们了解工作的方式很重要。为了激励动物，剥夺它们渴望的东西是一种非常有效的方法，比如在玩视频游戏时。然而我们并没有这么做，它们在整个过程中都拥有自由和充分的食物，所以它们不会饥饿，也不会口渴。

The only thing that would motivate them is if they want a treat extra to their normal rations. But there's there's never any deprivation there's never any adverse negative stimuli that pushes them to do anything must say I'm impressed by that decision because training animals to do tasks in laboratory settings is very hard and the reason so many researchers have defaulted to water deprivation. And having animals work for a ration of water is because frankly it works right it allows people to finish their PhD or their postdoc more quickly then having to wait around and try and figure out why they're monkey isn't working that day in fact having known a number of people who've done these kinds of experiments.
唯一能激励它们的东西就是如果它们想要比正常定量的饲料多得到一份零食。但是从来没有任何剥夺和不良负面刺激会驱使它们去做什么。我必须说我对这个决定感到印象深刻，因为在实验室环境下训练动物执行任务非常困难，很多研究人员默认采用剥夺水的方法，让动物为了一份水份定量饲料而劳作，因为它确实有效，允许人们更快地完成他们的博士或博士后研究，而不是等待并试图找出为什么它们的猴子今天不工作。实际上，我认识许多做过这种实验的人。

We've never done them in my lab my monkey isn't working today is a common and gripe among graduate students and postdocs who do this kind of work and for people who work on mice. Okay so this is very important information to get across and there's no public relations statement woven into this is just we're talking about the nature of the research. But I think it is important that people are aware of this yeah it's one of the one of the under appreciated innovations out of neural ink is how far the animal care team has been able to move in the direction of humane treatment of these guys.
“在我们的实验室中，我们从未使用过猴子进行实验。而对于进行这类研究的研究生和博士后以及研究老鼠的人来说，今天我的猴子不工作是很常见的抱怨。这是非常重要的信息，没有任何公共关系声明，我们只是在谈论研究的性质。但我认为让人们意识到这一点很重要，这是神经墨水中被低估的创新之一，动物护理团队已经能够在人道主义治疗这些动物方面取得了巨大的进步。”

Wonderful as an animal lover myself I can only say wonderful. Why pigs. Yeah pigs are you know they're actually fairly commonly used in medical device research more you know in the cardiac area their hearts are you know somewhat similar to human hearts. How big are these pigs I've seen little pigs I've seen big pigs yeah there's a range there's a bunch of different varieties of pig there's a bunch of different species that.
作为一个爱动物的人，我只能说太棒了。为什么是猪呢？是啊，猪在医疗设备研究中相当常用，尤其是在心脏领域，因为猪的心脏与人类的心脏有些相似。这些猪有多大？我见过小猪也见过大猪，是的，它们有不同的品种和物种。

You know you can optimize for different characteristics there's many pigs there's you know Yorkshire's there's a lot of different kind of pigs that we use in different contexts. When we're trying to optimize a certain characteristic so yeah the pigs are we don't necessarily need them to be smart or task performers although occasionally we have you know trained them to walk on a treadmill. When we're studying how their limbs move for some of our spinal cord research. But we're not you know recording interesting say cognitive data out of their minds they're really just a biological platform with a skull that's close enough in size and shape to humans to be a valid platform to study the safety of the device.
你知道我们可以优化不同的特征。有很多种猪，比如约克郡猪，我们在不同场合使用它们来优化特定的特征。我们不需要猪聪明或者执行任务，尽管偶尔我们会训练它们在跑步机上行走，以研究它们肢体的运动，用于我们的脊髓研究。但我们没有从它们的大脑中记录任何有趣的认知数据。它们只是一个生物平台，颅骨大小和形状足够接近人类，可以作为一个有效的平台来研究设备的安全性。

Unlike a monkey or a human a pig. I don't think can reach out and hit a button or a lever exactly how are they signaling that they saw or sense to something yeah so again the pigs are really just a safety platform to say the device is safe to implant it doesn't you know break down or cause any kind of toxic reaction the monkeys are really doing our heavy lifting in terms of ensuring. And getting good signals out of the device that that what we expect to see in humans is validated on a functional level in in monkeys first.
与猴子或人类不同，猪不可能伸出手去按下一个按钮或杠杆，那么它们如何表明它们看到或感知到了某些物体呢？因此，猪实际上只是用来证明设备安全，可以植入，不会出现故障或引起任何有毒反应的安全平台。而猴子则在确保我们从设备中获得好的信号方面发挥着重要作用，通过在猴子身上验证其在人类中的功能性实现，我们可以获得我们期望在人类身上看到的结果。

Let's talk about the skull yeah years ago you and I were enjoying a conversation about these very sorts of things that we're discussing today and you said you know the skull is actually a pretty lousy biological adaptation far better would be a titanium plate. And that true neurosurgeon with a radio receiver implanted in his hand but in all seriousness.
让我们来谈谈颅骨吧。几年前，你和我一起谈论这些我们今天正在讨论的事情，你说过颅骨实际上是一种相当糟糕的生物适应性，用钛板会更好，再来一个拥有植入手中无线电接收器的真正的神经外科医生。但说真的，

Drilling through the skull with a two millimeter hole certainly don't do this at home folks please don't do this but. Yes that's a small entry site but I think most people cringe when they hear about that or think about that sure and it obviously has to be done by a neurosurgeon with all the appropriate. Environmental conditions in place to limit infection.
用2毫米的孔从颅骨钻过去，千万不要在家里做这个，朋友们，请不要这样。是的，那是一个很小的进入点，但当大多数人听到或想到这个时，他们肯定会感到痛苦。这必须由神经外科医生完成，并确保所有适当的环境条件都到位，以限制感染。

What did you mean when you said that the skull is a poor adaptation in a titanium plate would be better and in particular what does that mean in reference to things like traumatic brain injury I mean our human beings unnecessarily vulnerable at the level of traumatic brain injury because our skulls are just not. Hard enough.
当你说颅骨是一个不好的适应，而用钛板更好时，你的意思是什么？特别是，这句话与创伤性脑损伤有什么关系？我的意思是，由于我们的颅骨不够坚硬，我们人类在创伤性脑损伤方面是不必要地脆弱。

You know maybe I'm being too harsh about the skull the skull is very good at what it does given the tools that we are working with as biological. organisms that develop in our mother's uterus. The skull is you know usually the appropriate size it's one of the hardest things in your body. That said there are a couple puzzling vulnerabilities some of the thinnest bone in the skull is in the temporal region this is you know neurosurgeons will all know that I'm heading toward. A feature that sometimes darkly is called God's little joke where the very thin bone of the of the temporal part of the skull has one of the largest arteries that goes to the lining of the brain right.
你知道，或许我对头骨太苛刻了。在以生物有限的工具作为基础的母体内发育的有机体中，头骨非常擅长它应该做的事情。一般来说，头骨尺寸合适，也是身体中最坚硬的东西之一。但是，有一些令人费解的弱点，头骨中一些最薄的骨骼在颞部，这是神经外科医生都了解的。这里有一个特点，有时被称为上帝的小幽默，就是颞部非常薄的骨头却有一条通向大脑衬里最大的动脉。

Attach to the inside of it and so this this bone just to the side of your eye tends to fracture if you're struck there and the sharp edges of that fractured bone very often cut an artery called the middle meninjial artery that leads to a big blood clot crushes the brain. And so this is how a lot of people with you know what otherwise would be a relatively minor injury end up dying is this large blood clot developing from high pressured arterial blood that crushes the brain. And so why would you put the artery right on the inside of the very thin bone that's most likely to fracture.
将它粘附在骨头内部，因此，如果你被打击到眼睛旁边，这个骨头就很容易断裂，而骨折后的锐利边缘往往会切断一个被称为中环脉动脉的动脉，这导致了大块血块的形成压迫了大脑。因此，很多人尽管受到了相对较小的伤害，仍然会因此死亡。而为什么要把动脉放在最容易断裂的非常薄的骨头内部呢？

And so this is probably the most obvious failure mode in you know the design of a human skull otherwise you know in terms of general impact resistance. I think the brain is a very hard thing to protect and the the architecture of human anatomy probably given all other possible architectures that can arise from development it's not that bad really. And so in terms of shock absorption that hopefully prevents a lot of traumatic brain injury is the fluid sheath around the brain the brain you may know is. It's mostly fat it floats in saltwater in our brains or brains are all floating in in saltwater and so with rapid acceleration deceleration that sheath of saltwater adds a marvelous protective cushion against development of.
因此，这很可能是人类头骨设计中最明显的失效模式，就一般冲击抵抗力而言。我认为，保护大脑是一件非常困难的事情，而人类解剖的结构可能是从所有可能的发育中产生的最好的，所以这并不是件坏事。因此，在冲击吸收方面，希望能够通过包裹在大脑周围的液体鞘来预防许多创伤性脑损伤。你们可能知道，大脑大部分是由脂肪构成，漂浮在我们的脑部盐水中，因此在快速加速或减速中，这层盐水鞘可以提供奇妙的保护缓冲，防止发展。

And so I think for any flaws in the design that do exist. You can imagine things being a lot worse and there's probably a lot fewer TBI's than would exist if a human designer was taken first crack at it. And I describe the thinness of this temporal bone and the presence of a critical artery just beneath it. I'm thinking about most helmets. And here I also want to queue up the fact that well whenever we hear about TBI or CTE brain injury people always think football hockey but most traumatic brain injuries are things like car accidents or construction work. And it's not football and hockey that for some reason football and hockey and boxing get all the attention. But my colleagues that work on traumatic brain injury tell me that most of the traumatic brain injury they see somebody slips at a party and hits their head or.
因此，我认为任何设计中存在的缺陷都可以想象得更糟糕，如果是人类设计师首先尝试设计，那么TBI的数量可能会更少。我描述了这个颞骨的薄度和下面关键动脉的存在。我在想大多数头盔都没有考虑这一点。还有，每当我们听到TBI或CTE脑损伤时，人们总是想起橄榄球、曲棍球，但大多数创伤性脑损伤都是如车祸或施工作业这样的事故。并不是只有橄榄球、曲棍球和拳击会引起创伤性脑损伤，但由于某种原因，这些项目却吸引了所有的注意力。我的研究人员告诉我，大多数创伤性脑损伤是因为一个人在聚会上滑倒摔倒或撞到头部引起的。

You know, it was in a car accident or environmental environmental accidents of various kinds. To my mind most helmets don't actually cover this region close to the eyes. So is there is there also a failure of helmet engineering that you know I can understand why you'd want to have your peripheral vision out the sides of your eyes, prefer your eyes. But it seems to me if this is such critical real estate why isn't it being better protected. You know, I'm no expert in helmets, but I don't think we see a lot of epidural hematomas in sports injuries.
你知道吗，很多车祸或环境事故都会发生头部受伤的情况。在我看来，大部分头盔实际上并没有覆盖到靠近眼睛的这个区域。所以，是否说头盔设计存在缺陷呢？我明白为什么人们希望能够从眼睛的侧面看到周边，而不是利用眼睛本身来观察。但是，如果这个区域如此关键，为什么没有更好地保护呢？虽然我不是头盔专家，但我认为我们在运动中很少见到硬脑膜下血肿的情况。

To get this kind of injury you usually need a really focal blunt trauma like the baseball bat to the head is a classic mechanism of injury that would lead to temporal bone fracture and epidural hematoma. With sports injuries, you know, you don't often see that especially in football with you know a sharp sharp object coming in contact with the head. It's usually another helmet right is the mechanism of injury. So I can't think off the top my head an instance of this exact injury type in sports.
要想获得这种伤害，通常需要一种非常明显的钝性外伤，比如棒球棒击中头部是导致颞骨骨折和硬膜外血肿的经典伤害机制。在运动中受伤，你知道，你并不经常见到这种情况，尤其是在足球比赛中，你会发现头部接触到锋利的物体的情况并不常见。通常情况下，另一个头盔就是伤害的机制。所以，我想不起来有哪个具体运动中遇到过这种伤害类型的实例。

You spent a lot of time poking around in brains of humans and while I realize this is not your area of expertise, you are somebody who I am aware you know cares about his health and the health of your family and I think generally people's health. When you look out on the landscape of things that people can do and shouldn't do if their desire is to keep their brain healthy. Do any data or any particular practices come to mind.
你曾经花费了大量的时间研究人类大脑，虽然我知道这不是你的专业领域，但你是一个我知道关心自己和家人健康的人，我相信你一般也关注着人们的健康。当你看到人们可以做和不应该做的事情，如果他们的愿望是保持大脑健康，你会想到任何数据或具体方法吗？

I think we've all heard the obvious one don't don't get ahead injury. If you get ahead of injury make sure it gets treated and don't get a second head injury. But those are sort of duh type answers that I'm able to give. So I'm curious about the answers that perhaps I'm not able to give.
我想我们大家都听说过一个显而易见的建议，那就是不要让自己受到头部受伤。如果你真的受了伤，确保得到治疗，并且不要再受到第二次头部伤害。但是，这些答案似乎是“duh”类型的，太过简单。因此我很好奇，有哪些答案我说不出来。

Yeah well the obvious one is one that you talk about a lot. And I see. a lot of the smoldering wreckage of humanity you know in the operating room and in the emergency room for people that come in. I work my practices in San Francisco right next to the tender line and so a lot of people that end up coming in from the tender line have been drinking just spectacular amounts of alcohol for a long time and their brains are. Very often on the scans they look like small walnuts inside their empty skull.
很明显，其中一个我们经常讨论的问题是很显然的。 我在手术室和急诊室经常看到人类燃烧的残骸。我的工作地点在旧金山的触摸区旁边，所以很多来自那里的人已经饮酒了很长时间，喝了大量的酒精。很多人的大脑在扫描结果上看起来像小核桃，嵌在他们空虚的头骨里。

There's so much atrophy that happens with an alcohol soaked brain chronically that I would say that's you know far and away the most common source of brain damage that many of us just volunteer for. And it's you know when you look at the morbidity kind of the human harm in aggregate that's done it's mystifying that that it's not something that we are all paranoid about.
酗酒会导致大量脑萎缩，长期如此，我会说这是我们中许多人自动选择的最常见的大脑损伤源。从总体上看，这种疾病会造成人类的大量危害，这是令人困惑的，我们为什么没有对此感到过度担忧。

People think that I don't drink at all I'll occasionally have a drink I like to take it or leave it frankly all the alcohol in the plant disappeared I wouldn't notice but I do occasionally have a drink maybe one per year or something like that but I am shocked at. This current state of affairs around alcohol consumption and advertising etc when I look at the data mainly out of the UK brain bank which basically shows that for every drink that one has on a regular basis.
人们认为我根本不喝酒，但我偶尔会喝一点。我喜欢自由选择，而对于植物里的所有酒精都消失了，我可能都没注意到。尽管如此，我偶尔会喝一点，也许一年一次，但当我看到有关酒精消费和广告的数据时，我感到震惊，尤其是来自英国脑库的数据，它基本上显示出每天喝酒的人所承受的风险。

You go from zero to one drink per week there's more brain atrophy thinning of the gray matter cortex you go from one to two more thinning you go from two to three and there's a near linear relationship between the amount that people are drinking in the amount of brain atrophy and to me it's like it's just sort of obvious from that these large scale studies that as you point out alcohol atrophy is the brain. It kills neurons and I don't have any bias against alcohol or people that drink I know many of them but it does seem to me kind of shocking that we're talking about the rest of our trial and red wine which is at you know infinitesimally small amounts is not even clear rest of our trial is good for us anyway by the way matter of debate I should point out but so alcohol certainly alcohol and excess is bad for the brain.
当你从每周不喝酒变成每周喝一杯酒时，大脑皮质灰质会变得更薄；当你从一杯酒变成两杯酒时，灰质变得更薄；当你从两杯酒变成三杯酒时，人们饮酒量和大脑萎缩呈近线性关系。这些大规模研究表明，饮酒能引起脑萎缩，杀死神经元。我不对饮酒或喝酒的人有偏见，我认识很多喝酒的人，但我觉得令人震惊的是我们谈论的是红酒和剩余的果糖醇——在微量条件下甚至不确定是否有益，这是有争议的。所以，过量饮酒对大脑来说显然是有害的。

In terms of okay so we have head hits bad alcohol bad you're working as you mentioned you're the tenderloin is there any awareness that amphetamine use can can disrupt brain structure or function you know that that's not an area that I spent a lot of time researching and I you know I incidentally take care of people that have used every substance known to man in quantities that are spectacular but I haven't specifically done research. In that area I'm not super well versed on the literature.
就头部受伤和酗酒而言，您在针对里蒙肉厨师的工作中提到了自己。您是否意识到甲基苯丙胺的使用可能会破坏大脑结构或功能呢？我并没有花太多时间研究这个领域，我只是偶尔治疗那些使用所有已知物质的人，但我并没有专门对这个领域进行研究。我对这方面的文献研究了解不多。

I ask in part because maybe you know a colleague or will come across a colleague who's working on this is there's just such an incredible increase in the use of things like Adderall Ridley Modaffinal or Modaffinal which I think in small amounts in clinical clinically prescribed situations can be very beneficial but let's be honest many people are using these on a chronic basis.
我问这个问题是因为你可能认识一位同事，或者会遇到一位正在从事这方面工作的同事，因为像Adderall、Ridley Modaffinal或者Modaffinal等物质的使用有了惊人的增长。我认为在临床处方的小剂量情况下，这些物质可以很有益，但说实话，很多人长期使用这些物质。

I don't think we really know what it does to the brain aside from increasing addiction for those substances that's very clear well for better worse we're generating a massive data set right now. Well put.
我认为我们实际上并不知道它对大脑的影响，除了增加对那些物质的成瘾，这很明显，不管好坏，我们正在生成一个庞大的数据集。说得好。 意思：作者认为我们对毒品对大脑的影响并不了解，只知道它们会使人上瘾。不管怎样，我们正在收集大量的数据。

I'd like to briefly go back to our earlier discussion about neuroplasticity you made an interesting statement which is that we are not aware of any single brain area that one can stimulate in order to invoke plasticity. Right.
我想简单回到我们之前关于神经可塑性的讨论，你曾说过一句有趣的话，即我们不知道有哪个脑区能被刺激以调动可塑性。没错。 意思：回到之前的话题讨论，提到对于神经可塑性的探讨，有一位发言者提出了一个有趣的观点，他认为我们目前还没有发现一种能够刺激单一脑区以调动神经可塑性的方法。最后进行了确认。

This is the smelly ability of neural architecture years ago Mike Merzenick and colleagues at UCSF did some experiments where they stimulate nucleus basalus and paired that stimulation with eight kilohertz tone or in some cases they could also stimulate a different brain area the ventral segmental area which causes a release of dopamine and pair it with a tone and it seemed in every one of these cases they observed.
这是神经结构的嗅觉能力，几年前迈克·默兹尼克（Mike Merzenick）和他在UCSF的同事进行了一些实验，在实验中他们刺激了基底核，然后将这种刺激与八千赫兹的音调配对，或者在一些情况下他们还可以刺激不同的脑区-腹侧区，这会引起多巴胺的释放，并将其与音调配对。他们观察到，在所有这些情况中，它们都呈现出了类似的结果。

Massive plasticity now I look at those data and I compare them to the kind of classic data I think it was Carl Ashley that did these experiments where they take animals and they scoop out a little bit of cortex. Put the animal back into a learning environment and the animal do pretty well if not perfectly so they scoop out a different region of cortex and a different animal and by the end of maybe three or four years of these kinds of lesion experiments.
巨大的可塑性现在我看着这些数据，将它们与我认为是卡尔·阿什利进行的那些实验做比较，他们将动物带回学习环境中，然后取出一点皮层。如果不是完美的话，动物会表现得相当好，所以他们取出了大脑皮层的不同区域和不同的动物，经过可能三到四年的这种损伤实验。

They referred to the equal potential of the cortex meaning they concluded that it didn't matter which piece of the cortex you took out that there was no one critical area so on the one end you've got these experiments that say you know you don't really need a lot of the brain right and he's every once in a while a new story will come out where they'll patient person will go in for a brain scan for some other reason or an experiment and the person seems perfectly normal and they're like missing half their cortex right and then on the other end you have these experiments like the stimulation of basalis or VTA where you get massive plasticity from stimulation of one area I was never been able to reconcile these kinds of discrepant findings and so I'd really like just your opinion on this you know what is it about the brain as an organ that lets it be both so critical at the level of the brain.
他们提到了皮层的等电位，意思是他们得出结论，无论取出哪一部分皮层，都没有一个关键区域。因此，在一方面，有一些实验表明，你并不需要大脑的很多部分，偶尔也会有新闻报道说，某个患者因为其他原因接受了脑部扫描或实验，患者看起来完全正常，但实际上已经失去了大脑的一半。另一方面，有一些实验，如基底核或中脑VTA的刺激，可以通过刺激某个区域获得巨大的可塑性。我一直没能解决这些不一致的发现，所以我真的很想听听您的意见，您认为大脑作为一个器官有什么特别之处，让它在大脑的层面上既如此关键。

So critical at the level of individual neurons and circuits so so critical and yet at the same time it's able to circumvent these what would otherwise seem like massive lesions and holes in itself. Yeah I mean a lot of a lot of it to reconcile those experiments you first account for the fact they're probably in different species right you take out a particular portion of a pig or a rabbit grain a small amount you might not see a difference but a small amount of the brain. So you can see a difference but a small portion of a human brain say the part most interested in coordinating speech or finger movement and you're going to see profound losses or visual cortex right. Take out a small portion of V1 and you'll you'll have a visual deficit and so species matters age matters if you take out half of the brain in a very young baby that baby has a reasonable chance of developing a lot of the brain.
神经元和回路的个体水平非常关键，但同时也能够避免那些看似巨大的损伤和缺陷。你知道，为了解决这些实验上的矛盾，我们首先需要考虑它们可能来自于不同的动物物种，你取出猪或兔子的某一个部位，可能不会有明显的差异，但如果是人类大脑的一小部分，比如负责语言协调或手指运动的部分，就会导致深刻的损失，例如视觉皮层。取出V1区域的一小部分，就会造成视觉功能障碍，所以动物种类和年龄都很重要，如果在一个很年轻的婴儿身上取出一半脑子，这个婴儿还有发展大脑的机会。

So developing high degree of function by having the remaining half subsume some of the functions lost on the other side. Because they're very very young and their brain is still developing it's it's to some degree a blank slate with extremely high plasticity over many years so that can overcome a lot of deficits. Taking an adult animals brain that isn't very well differentiated functionally to begin with you might not see those deficits so apparently there's a lot of redundancy as well right there's a lot of say cerebellar and spinal circuits in other animals that generate stereotype behavior patterns and might not need the brain at all to to perform say a walking movement or some other sequences of motor activities.
通过让剩余的一半脑部承担另一半失去的一些功能来发展高度功能。因为他们很年轻，大脑还在发育，所以可以在许多年中具有极高的可塑性，从而克服许多缺陷。拿成年动物的大脑来说，它们的功能分化并不很好，你可能看不到这些缺陷，因为显然有很多冗余性，例如在其他动物的小脑和脊髓回路中会产生固定行为模式，可能根本不需要大脑执行行走或其他一些运动活动的序列。

So a lot of that depends on the experimental setup I would say in general adult humans are very vulnerable to losing small parts of their brains and losing discrete functions. I'm going to take the liberty of asking a question that merges across neural link and Tesla. I could imagine that cars whether or not they're on autopilot mode or being driven by the human directly and society generally would benefit from knowing whether or not a human is very alert or sleepy sure.
所以，很大程度上取决于实验设置。我认为，总体上来说，成年人很容易失去大脑的一些小部分和离散功能。我想提出一个跨越神经连结和特斯拉的问题。我可以想象，无论汽车是否处于自动驾驶模式或是由人类直接驾驶，社会总体上都会受益于知道一个人是否非常警觉或昏昏欲睡。

I don't know Tesla perhaps this technology already exists but is there any idea that a simple sensor maybe even of just eyelid position or pupil size or head position could be introduced to a car like the Tesla or another car for that matter. And resolve a common problem which is that when people are less alert not just when people fall asleep but the simple drop in alertness that occurs when people are sleepy is my read of the data is responsible for approximately a third.
我不知道特斯拉公司是否已经开发出这种技术，但是否有一种简单的传感器，甚至仅仅是检测眼睑位置、瞳孔大小或者头部位置就可以安装在像特斯拉等汽车上或任何其他车型上呢？这可以解决一个常见问题，人们当警觉性下降时（不仅仅是当人们睡觉时），例如在瞌睡时会出现的简单的注意力下降。根据我的理解，这是造成约三分之一事故的原因。

It's incredible of accidents between vehicles and then of course some percentage of those are going to be lethal accidents in terms of preserving life this might seem like a minor case but it's actually a major case scenario. I have no special insight into how Tesla software works I know they have brilliant engineers when I have a Tesla when I drive it it seems to know when I'm looking at the road versus not and it yells at me if I'm not looking at the road so do that and what voice does it use there is a small camera up by the review mirror and I think it's a simple I track my my guess here is that it's a simple I tracking program. And so it may already be the case that it's implemented that it's detecting whether your eyes are open or not obviously you know it's not strict it's not stringent because sunglasses and I've seen forms on the internet where people tape over that small camera so they can also good that's.
车辆事故令人惊人，其中一定有一些会导致死亡。从保护人的生命来看，这似乎是一个小问题，但实际上它是一个重大问题。我不知道特斯拉软件的详细情况，但我知道他们有优秀的工程师。当我开特斯拉的时候，它似乎知道我是在看路还是不看路，如果我不看路，它会提醒我。而且，有一个小摄像头在后视镜上，我认为它只是一个简单的眼动追踪程序。因此，它可能已经实现了检测你的眼睛是否开着，但显然这不是严格的，因为戴墨镜或在小摄像头上贴纸都可以干扰。

But you know I think they're definitely making efforts to try to try to save lives here. Incredible saying incredible just because I think I'm fortunate enough to live in a lifetime where there were no electric cars when I was growing up and now things are moving so fast no one intended.
但是你知道，我认为他们正在努力尝试挽救生命。令人难以置信的是，我认为我很幸运能够生活在一个没有电动汽车的年代，而现在事情发展得如此之快，没有人预料到。

So what is your wish for brain machine interface and brain augmentation so let's assume that the clinical stuff can be worked out or maybe you have a a pet clinical condition that you just are just yearning to see resolved that that would be fine too but in addition to that way you really just expand out let's say we can extend your life 200 years or we're thinking about the kind of world that your children are going to live in. And their grandchildren will live in what do you think is really possible with brain augmentation and brain machine interface and here please feel no bias whatsoever to answer in a way that reveals to us your your incredible empathy and consideration of clinical conditions because that's how you spend your days is fixing patients and helping their lives be better so if it lands in that category great but for sake of fun and for sake of delight and for sake of really getting us the audience to understand what's really possible here please feel no shackles.
那么，你对脑机接口和大脑增强的愿望是什么？假设临床问题已经得到解决，或者你可能有一个临床问题，你非常渴望看到解决，那也没关系。但除此之外，让我们假设我们可以延长你的寿命200年，或者我们正在思考你的孩子将会生活的世界。他们的孙子辈会生活在一个怎样的世界中？你认为通过脑增强和脑机接口，真正可能实现的是什么？在这里，请毫无偏见地回答，展现出你令人难以置信的同理心和对临床问题的关注，因为你的工作是解决患者的问题，并帮助他们的生活变得更好。如果它属于这个范畴，那就太好了，但为了有趣、为了让我们的观众真正了解这里的真正可能性，请不要受到任何约束。

Yeah well you know I I love the idea down the road and we're talking you know a 10 year maybe 20 year time frame of humans just getting control over some of the horrible ways that their brains go wrong right so I think everybody at this point has either known someone or second order known someone a friend of a friend who has been touched by addiction or depression suicide obesity these functions of the brain or or malfunctions of the brain or what drives me these are the things that I want to tackle in my career you know in terms of my kids' lifetime.
嗯，你知道的，我非常喜欢这个想法，也就是在未来的10年或者20年内，人类可以掌控一些大脑出错的可怕方式，这让我感到非常激动。因为目前大家都可能亲身经历过或者是通过朋友的朋友认识过身边有人被瘾症、抑郁、自杀、肥胖等大脑功能异常所困扰。这些问题是驱动我从事职业生涯的事情，我希望能在我的孩子的有生之年解决这些问题。

I'm thinking you know full human expansion of human cognition into AI full immersion in the internet of your cognitive abilities having no limitation for what you think as bottlenecked by needing to read the Wikipedia article first to have the data to inform your thoughts having communication with anyone that you want to unrestricted by this you know flapping air past meat on your face it's a you know means of communication that's ridiculously prone to being misunderstood it's also a tiny narrow bottleneck of communication where you know trying to send messages back and forth through a tiny straw and there's no reason that needs to necessarily be true it's the way things have always been but it isn't the way things are going to be in the future.
我想，你应该知道，人类认知的完全扩展，可以使人们完全融入到人工智能和互联网中。你的认知能力将不再受限于需要先阅读维基百科文章来获得信息来引导你的思考。你可以与任何人交流，无论限制条件如何，这种通过“往嘴巴上飞拍空气”的沟通方式早已过时并容易被误解，它只是一种狭窄的传输方式。但未来并不会这样，没有必要保持这种传统，我们可以更好的沟通。

And I think there's a you know a million very sci-fi possibilities in terms of banding human minds together to be even more potent as a multi-unit organism you know as an opt-in multi brain you know these are things that are so far down the road I can't even directly see how they would be implemented but the technology we're working on is a little crack in the door that allows some of this stuff to even be thought about in a realistic way.
我认为在将人类思维结合起来，成为一个更加强大的多元体的方面，有许多极具科幻色彩的可能性，就像一个自愿加入的多脑一样。这些事情远在未来，我甚至看不出它们将如何实现，但我们正在研究的技术是一扇小小的门缝，使得一些实际上难以想象的东西变得现实。

To that point I you know encourage anyone who is you know excited about things like that you know especially mechanical engineers software engineers robotics engineers come to the NERLINK website look at the jobs we've got we need the brightest people on the planet working on these the hardest problems in the world in my opinion and so if you want to work on this stuff come help us.
在这一点上，我鼓励任何对机械工程、软件工程或机器人工程感到兴奋的人访问NERLINK网站，查看我们招聘的职位。我认为，我们需要全球最聪明的人来解决这些世界上最艰难的问题。因此，如果你想从事这方面的工作，请加入我们的团队并帮助我们。

I have several responses to what you just said first off I'll get the least important one out of the way which is that years ago I applied for a job at NERLINK the NERLINK website at that time was incredibly sparse right it was just said NERLINK and it said if you're interested give us your email so I put my email there I got no response so they made a wise choice in terrible and dreaded in our mouth.
我对你刚才说的有几个回应。首先，我会先说最不重要的一个，就是几年前我申请了NERLINK的一份工作。当时NERLINK的网站非常简单，只有NERLINK的字样和一句话：“如果您有兴趣，请留下您的电子邮件地址。”我就留了下来，但是没有收到任何回应。所以他们在不善于招人方面做出了明智的选择，也是我们口中可怕的选择。

Now fast forward several years I am very grateful and I think very lucky that you who passed through fortunately for me through my lab at one point and we had some fun expeditions together in the wild NERLINK Explorations so we can talk about some other time as well as I'm learning from you as you pass through your time at Stanford but have arrived there at NERLINK and I'll say they're very lucky to have you and folks like Dan Adams who have known for your very long time so phenomenal NERL surgeons like yourself NERL scientists and vision scientists like Dan and others it's really an incredible mission so I really want to start off by saying thank you to you and all your colleagues there.
现在我们快进几年，我非常感激，也觉得自己非常幸运，因为你曾经经过我的实验室，我们一起在野外进行了一些有趣的Nerlink探险，我们还可以在另一个时间聊聊这个话题。同时，当你在斯坦福度过你的时间并抵达Nerlink时，我从你们身上学到了很多，他们非常幸运能有像你和Dan Adams这样的老朋友，以及像你这样的卓越Nerlink外科医生和Dan以及其他Nerlink科学家和视觉科学家，这真的是一个令人难以置信的任务。所以我想先向你及你那里所有同事表达感谢。

I know that NERLINK is really tip of the spear in being public-facing with the kinds of things they're doing and being so forth coming about how that work is done in animals and exactly what they're doing and that's a very brave stance to take especially given the nature of the work but well that's classic Elon right he doesn't keep secrets in public too commonly he tells you what he's going to do and then he does it and people are always amazed by that you know.
我知道NERLINK是公共领域中真正的先锋，在他们所做的事情上，是如此直言不讳，非常勇敢地阐述了在动物身上进行工作的过程以及他们正在做什么。这是一种非常勇敢的立场，特别是考虑到这项工作的本质，但这正是典型的埃隆风格，他不会太经常在公共场合保守秘密，他会告诉你他要做什么，然后他就会去做，人们总是为此感到惊讶。

He releases the Tesla master plan and tells you exactly what the company intends to do for the next several years and people assume that there's some subterfuge that he is misdirecting but it's right out there in the open and I think NERLINK follows in that path of you know we want people to know what we're doing we want the brightest people in the world to come help us we want to be able to help patients we want you know the most motivated patients with quadriplegia to you know visit our patient registry and sign up to be considered for clinical trials that will happen in the future.
他公开发布了特斯拉的总体计划，明确了公司未来几年的意图，人们认为他有所隐瞒，但实际上一切都非常明确，我认为纽林克也是这样的，我们希望人们知道我们在做什么，我们希望全球最聪明的人来帮助我们，我们希望能够帮助患者，我们希望四肢瘫痪的患者成为我们的病人登记处的受访者，并注册参加未来的临床试验。

We'll put a link to that by the way so maybe just the direct call could happen now so you this is for people who are quadriplegic or who know people who are quadriplegic who are interested in being part of this clinical trial it's a patient registry right now that we're just collecting information to see who might be eligible for clinical trials that will happen in the future we're still working with the FDA to hammer out the details and get their final permission to proceed with the trial so please see the note in the show note the link excuse me in the in the show note captions for that yeah.
顺便提一下，我们会提供一个链接，以便现在可能可以直接拨打电话，这是为那些四肢瘫痪的人或他们认识的有兴趣参加这项临床实验的人提供的。现在这只是一个患者注册表，我们只是收集信息，以查看谁可能有资格参加未来的临床试验。我们仍在与FDA合作，草拟细节并获得他们的最终批准，以进行试验，请在节目说明中查看链接。

I want to thank you guys for your stance in public facing and also doing the incredibly hard work I also think the robotics aspect which you've clarified for me today is extremely forward thinking and absolutely critical so a lot of critical engineering that no doubt will wake out into other domains of neurosurgery and medical technology not just serving NERLINK's mission directly and I really want to thank you first of all for coming here today and taking time out of your important schedule of seeing patients and doing brain surgery literally happy I do time away from your family and time away from your mission at NERLINK briefly to to share with people what you guys are doing.
我想感谢你们在公众面前坚持自己的立场，以及做出了极其艰巨的工作。我今天得到你们澄清的机器人方面的理解，认为它是非常前瞻性和绝对关键的，相信这将会延伸到神经外科和医疗技术的其他领域，而不仅仅是服务于NERLINK 的使命。我首先要感谢你们今天来到这里，并抽出时间，远离家人和NERLINK 使命，向公众简要介绍你们正在做的事情。

As I mentioned before there's a lot of mystique around it and you despite the fact that NERLINK has gone out of their way to try and erase some of that mystique this to me is the clearest picture ever to my knowledge that has been given about what's going on there and the stated and the real mission and what's going on at the level of nuts and bolts and guts and brains and this kind of thing.
正如我之前提到的，有许多神秘的事情围绕着它。尽管NERLINK已经努力试图消除一些神秘感，但就我所知，这是有关于那里正在发生什么事情的最清晰的画面，以及陈述的和真实的使命，以及在螺母、螺栓、内部以及整个系统的运作等方面。

I really just want to thank you also for for being you which is perhaps sounds like a kind of an odd thing to hear but I think as made apparent by the device implanted in your hand you don't just do this for a job you live and breathe and embody truly embody this stuff around the nervous system and trying to figure out how to fix it how to make it better and you live and breathe it and I know your deep love for it so I want to thank you for not just the brains that you put into it and the energy you put into it but also for the heart that you put into it thanks for that.
我真的想感谢你，感谢你做你自己。也许这听起来有点奇怪，但从你手上植入的设备中显然可以看出，你不仅仅是把这当作一份工作，你真的生活在其中、深呼吸其中、并且真正地体现了关于神经系统的这些东西，努力地想方设法去修复它、让它变得更好，你生活在它的中心、深深地热爱它，所以我想感谢你，不仅是感谢你付出的思维和精力，也感谢你付出的心血，谢谢你。

Andrew I appreciate that we just want to help people we want to make things better well I know that to be true knowing you and thank you again for coming here today and I look forward to another round of discussion and whenever the time happens to be when these incredible technologies have spelled out to the next major milestone thank you.
安德鲁，我很欣赏我们想帮助人们，想让事情变得更好的想法。我知道这是真实的，因为我认识你。再次感谢你今天在这里出席，并期待未来的更多讨论。每当这些令人惊叹的技术达到下一个重要里程碑时，无论是什么时候，请再次感谢你。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Matthew McDougal all about the human brain and how it functions how it breaks down and the incredible efforts that are being carried out at NERLINK in order to overcome diseases of brain and nervous system function and to augment how the human brain works if you'd like to learn more about Dr. McDougal's work and the specific work being done at NERLINK please see the links that we've provided in the show note captions if you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel that's a terrific zero cost way to support us in addition please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple and in addition on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five star review if you have questions for me or topics you'd like me to cover on the human lab podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider inviting on the human lab podcast please put that in the comments on YouTube I do read all the comments in addition please check out the sponsors mentioned at beginning and throughout today's episode that's the best way to support this podcast
感谢您参加今天与马修·麦克道格博士关于人脑的讨论，讲述人脑的功能、崩溃情况以及在NERLINK所进行的不懈努力，以克服脑和神经系统功能疾病并增强人脑的工作。如果您想了解更多有关麦克道格博士的工作和正在NERLINK进行的具体工作，请查看我们在节目评论中提供的链接。如果您正在学习和享受这个播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道，这是一个非常好的零成本支持我们的方式。另外，请在Spotify和Apple上订阅这个播客，您可以在这两个平台上给我们留下最多五颗星的评价。如果您有问题或希望我在人类实验室播客中涵盖某些主题或邀请某些嘉宾，请在YouTube的评论中提出。我会阅读所有评论。另外，请查看今天节目中提到的赞助商，这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

not so much on today's episode but on various previous episodes of the human lab podcast we discuss supplements while supplements aren't necessary for everybody many people derive tremendous benefit from. them for things like enhancing sleep, focus and hormone support the human lab podcast is proud to have partnered with momentous supplements if you'd like to hear more about the supplements discussed on the human lab podcast please go to live momentous spelled o-s dot com slash human again that's live momentous dot com slash human
在人体研究实验室播客的许多之前的集数中，我们谈论了补充剂。虽然并不是每个人都需要补充剂，但许多人从中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、增强注意力和支持荷尔蒙。人体研究实验室播客自豪地与Momentous补充剂合作。如果您想了解更多在人体研究实验室播客中讨论的补充剂，请访问live momentous(dot)com/human。

if you're not already following the human lab podcast on social media we are human lab on Instagram Twitter Facebook and LinkedIn and on all those places I focus on material that somewhat overlaps with content from the human lab podcast but often it's distinct from the content covered on the human lab podcast so again it's human lab on all social media channels
如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注“人类实验实验室播客”，我们的账号在Instagram、Twitter、Facebook和LinkedIn上都叫做“人类实验室”。在这些媒体平台上，我会专注于一些与“人类实验实验室播客”内容有所重叠的素材，但通常会涵盖在播客中没有提到的内容。所以，再次提醒大家可以在这些社交媒体渠道上搜索“人类实验室”。

for those of you that haven't already subscribed to our so-called neural network newsletter this is a completely zero cost monthly newsletter that has summaries of podcast episodes and so-called toolkits toolkits are lists of about a page to two pages long that give the critical tools for instance for optimizing sleep or for neuroplasticity or deliberate cold exposure or deliberate heat exposure optimizing dopamine again all available to you at zero cost you simply go to huberman lab.com go to the menu tab in the corner scroll down a newsletter you provide us your email we do not share your email with anybody and in addition to that there are samples of toolkits on the huberman lab.com website again under newsletter and you don't even have to sign up to access those but I think most people do end up signing up for the newsletter because it's rich with useful information and again completely zero cost
如果你还没有订阅我们所谓的神经网络新闻通讯，那么这是一份完全免费的月刊，其中包含了播客剪辑的摘要和所谓的工具包。这些工具包是一页至两页长的列表，列出了关键的工具，例如优化睡眠、促进神经可塑性、有意识的冷暴露或热暴露、调节多巴胺等等。以上所有内容都可以免费获得，只需访问hubermanlab.com，点击菜单选项，滚动到新闻通讯板块，提供您的电子邮件地址给我们，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件地址。此外，在hubermanlab.com网站上还提供了工具包的样本，同样在新闻通讯板块下，您甚至不需要注册也可以访问。但我认为大多数人最终会注册新闻通讯，因为其中充满了有用的信息，而且完全免费。

thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Matthew McDougall and last but certainly not least thank you for your interest in science
再次感谢您参加今天与Matthew McDougall博士的讨论，最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。