Finance and war
发布时间 2014-06-26 09:42:02 来源
摘要
Historian and Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng explores the long and complex relationship between wealth and warfare, from the Spanish empire until the present financial crisis. Meanwhile, Richard Van Emden explains how he put together a new book of first hand reminiscences from the First World War Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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中英文字稿 
The State's agreed they spend money, they like borrowing money, they go to war. All these demands are things that have shaped the world for modern world for centuries. That was Quasi Quarteng talking about the lessons that we can learn from looking at the history of money. What fascinated me is how these people put on with what they did and when I can feel, when I can see, when I can read that these people are no different from me from my best friends. And it really does give you a sense of awe. And that was Richard Fanendon speaking about his new book that features the words and photographs of soldiers in the First World War.
国家同意花钱，他们喜欢借钱，他们打仗。所有这些要求都是塑造了现代世界的事情。这是Quasi Quarteng谈论从货币历史中学习到的教训。令我着迷的是这些人是如何应对他们的行为的，当我能够感觉到，看到，阅读到这些人与我和我最好的朋友没有任何区别。这确实让你感到敬畏。这是Richard Fanendon谈论他的新书，其中包括第一次世界大战士兵的话语和照片。
Hello and welcome to the History Extra Podcast. I'm Rob Atta and I'm the editor of BBC History magazine, which is the UK's best-selling History magazine. It's available in all good news agents or you can take out a subscription from anywhere in the world. Visit historyextra.com forward slash subscribe for the latest subscription offers. Plus we have digital auditions available for the iPad, Kindle, Kindle Fire, Google Play and Zinho. The details of these head to historyextra.com forward slash digital.
大家好，欢迎收听History Extra Podcast。我是Rob Atta，也是BBC History magazine的编辑。这是英国销售最好的历史杂志，可以在所有好的新闻代理处购买，或者您可以在世界任何地方订阅。最新的订阅优惠请访问historyextra.com/subscribe。此外，我们还提供iPad、Kindle、Kindle Fire、Google Play和Zinho等数字版。详情请访问historyextra.com/digital。
The volatile nature of global financial markets since 2008 has made money a hot political topic. But as historian and conservative MP quasi-quarting argues in his new book More and Gold, the historical relationship between international politics and finance has much to teach us about the present situation. He spoke to a book editor Matt Elton about 500 years of conflict conquest in currency.
自2008年以来，全球金融市场的波动性使得金钱成为了一个热门的政治议题。但正如历史学家和保守党议员昆西·昆丁在他的新书《金与更多》中所提到的那样，国际政治与金融之间的历史关系可以教会我们很多当下所遇到的问题。他与图书编辑马特·埃尔顿谈论了500年来货币领域的冲突与征服。
So the book opens with a conquest of Peru by the Spanish. What effect did the discovery of the new world have on the European economy? I think it was hugely transformational and I mentioned John L. L. K. he talked about it. And if you look at what happened, you will see that lots of silver and gold flooded Europe. And essentially what that did was push up prices. And in the course of the book I refer to contemporary accounts of people discovering, I mean they knew themselves that actually the influx of gold and silver had pushed up prices. And so there are people saying, well, you could buy a loaf of bread for one, you know, copper piece and now it's one gold piece or that sort of thing.
因此，这本书开篇讲述了西班牙人对秘鲁的征服。新大陆的发现对欧洲经济产生了什么影响？我认为这是极其革命性的，我提到了John L.L.K.他谈到了这个问题。如果你看看发生了什么，你会发现大量的银和金涌入了欧洲。而实际上这做的就是推高价格。在这本书中，我参考了许多当代人的记录，他们自己也知道黄金和白银的涌入推高了物价。所以有人说，你曾经能用一个铜币买到一条面包，现在需要一个金币等等。
I mean, we call it inflation. But they were very aware, I think, of the fact that these new discoveries push up prices. And of course there's a wider argument to which Keynes actually made was that the increase in prices was a great stimulus to business activity. So if you're opening a shop or you're a business or whatever you're doing, economically if in an environment where the prices are going up, you're quite a little incentivized to its great spur to trade. Because you can always make money. Yes.
我的意思是，我们把它叫做通货膨胀。但我认为，他们非常清楚这些新的发现会推高价格。当然，有一个更广泛的争论，凯恩斯实际上提出的是，价格上涨是促进商业活动的巨大刺激。因此，如果您要开一家商店或您是一家企业，无论您做什么，在价格上涨的环境中，从经济上来讲，您都会受到很大的激励，这是贸易的重要刺激。因为您可以赚钱。是的。
And there's always more money and it's all very expansionary. And I think in many ways the discovery of the new world did give that kickstart to the European economy. I think whilst fascinating about the book though is that you argue that although I had this seemingly positive effect on the economy, it had a series of negative effects on political and I guess social aspects. Yes.
还有更多的金钱，而且这都非常具有扩张性。我认为，在很多方面，新世界的发现确实为欧洲经济注入了动力。尽管这本书很有趣，但你认为，虽然它对经济似乎有积极的影响，但它对政治和社会方面产生了一系列负面影响。是的。
But I think with Spain there was what's called, I mean, you see it actually, I didn't make the point of the book. You see it in oil rich countries now. They call it the curse of oil. So they have all this limitless resources. But as a consequence of limitless resources, as a lot of corruption, they are overly dependent on oil because it's so easy to make money from oil so they don't diversify their industry. They don't diversify their businesses and they become dependent on this one commodity.
但是我认为西班牙存在一种被称为“石油诅咒”的问题，你可以在现在的许多石油资源丰富的国家看到这种问题。这些国家拥有无限的资源，但由于过度依赖石油赚钱，因此也存在很多腐败问题。他们过于依赖石油，不愿意拓展其他产业，也不愿意拓展其他业务，最终变成了对一种商品的过度依赖。
And to a lesser degree, I suppose you can make that argument about Spain. They relied on these imports of silver and gold and Spanish industry as an argument that's just Spanish industry and actual agricultural rest of it sort of fell behind as they were completely sort of addicted to endless flows of silver and gold. And of course the one thing about being quite rich is that you feel that you've got lots of money so you spend it. So the fact that they were getting more money in prices were going up, they were had to spend more money as it were. Yes, I see.
我想在某种程度上，你可以同样说西班牙也是如此。他们依靠银和金的进口以及西班牙工业来支撑经济，但实际上，农业领域落后了很多，因为他们完全沉迷于不断的银和金的流入。当然，拥有大量财富的一个好处是你会觉得你有很多钱，所以你会花钱。所以，事实上他们获得的越来越多的钱和物价的上涨，他们不得不花更多的钱。是啊，我明白了。
And the whole thing, and actually, I made this book at this point in the book, just at the moment when they were getting all this silver and gold, that was when what we call the military revolution was taking place. And the military revolution, I could have spoken a bit about more, I'm not a military historian, but military revolution essentially, you know, a lot of the kit, the hardware of fighting, becomes a lot more expensive, it sort of gums, artillery, all of that sort of thing. And just at the moment when they were getting richer, the costs of what they were trying to do, the loot. Right, okay.
在我写这本书时，正值他们获得大量银和金的时候，也就是我们所说的军事革命发生的时期。军事革命，虽然我不是军事历史学家，但基本上是指战争的装备变得更昂贵，比如大炮等。而正是在他们变得更富有的时候，他们所努力获取的财物的成本也在增加。
And so in the end, they resulted in borrowing money to try and make the shortfall. So they become addicted to spending at a time when spending became increasingly important? Yes. That's right, that's exactly right.
最终，他们只能借钱来填补不足。所以他们成为了在恰当时候增加支出成为越来越重要的替代品的支出上上瘾了吗？是的，没错，完全正确。
And also, so you've got this situation where, and also, I mean, this is where the politics comes in. Charles V, essentially, inherits a vast empire through a series of dynastic alliances, made by his grandfather and his parents. So he inherits the Holy Roman Empire, which is based around some central Europe, German speaking Europe, Vienna. And he also inherits Spain.
而且，你会发现，这里面涉及到政治因素。查理五世是通过他的祖父和父母的一系列王室联姻，继承了一个庞大的帝国。他继承了以维也纳为中心的神圣罗马帝国，并且也继承了西班牙。
And so the big question, I suppose, in the early 16th century, and you see it in things like the tutors and the big backdrop is obviously the emperor. And he's emperor and king of Spain. And that was, that forms the backdrop to, you know, after the war, that's familiar to us in terms of British history.
我想，在16世纪初期，最大的问题是皇帝，你可以从像家庭教师和大背景中看到这一点。他是西班牙的皇帝和国王。这是我们熟悉的英国历史中，在战争之后的背景。
And the big question there was, how do we accommodate this big superpower, this big monarch who is king of the Holy Roman Empire, and that sort of, as sort of the frontrunner in a way, Charles V has to spend a lot of money. He has to keep up lots of armies. He's got lots of, he's operating lots of different theatres of war. And that, in a sense, puts a very difficult heavy strains on his kingdom.
那里的重要问题是，我们如何容纳这个庞大的超级大国、荷兰、布拉班特和弗兰德大公、神圣罗马帝国国王该怎么办，作为前锋，查理五世必须花费大量的钱来维持众多的军队，他在许多不同的战争领域进行作战，这在某种意义上对他的王国造成了很大的压力。
So I mean, is it true to say that it's the kind of the international rivalry that leads Spain to, well, the Spanish Empire to overspend? Yes, I mean, it's all about that sort of strategic dominance over Europe. And yes, you're absolutely right. I mean, what's driving the spending is this bid for mastery, if you like, this Germanic role that the Spanish has planted. And of course, the other empires in Europe are trying to drag them down.
我的意思是，是否可以说是国际对抗导致了西班牙帝国的超支？是的，这全都是为了在欧洲获得战略性的掌控。你完全正确，推动开支的原因是想要掌握主导权，像西班牙人种植的那种日耳曼角色。当然，欧洲的其他帝国也在试图拉低他们。
And that's, in a sense, what British foreign policy at the time was about. It was about to try to contain and limit over my tea powers in Europe. And the same pattern from the British point of view is repeated through the 17th century through the 14th and beyond.
从某种意义上来说，当时英国的外交政策就是要试图遏制和限制欧洲其他国家的势力。从英国的角度来看，这种模式在17世纪、14世纪等很长一段时间里都得到了重复。
So how far can we say that the decline of the Spanish Empire was caused by gold and overspending? I think, obviously, there are no more mormacles or sort of reasons in history. There was a multiplicity of reasons, some more important than others. But clearly, that was a factor, I think. The fact that there was over what modern strategists call overreach, the imperial overreach. And that's a theme of the book. People get all these responsibilities, great powers.
那么我们可以说西班牙帝国的衰落是由于黄金和超支引起的吗？我认为显然在历史上没有什么单一原因。有许多原因，一些更为重要。但显然，这是一个因素。事实上，有现代策略家所说的过度扩张，即帝国过度扩张的情况。这是本书的主题。人们承担了所有这些责任和大国的权力。
And they find they simply can't afford to pay for the war. OK. So I mean, obviously, the book covers a huge sweep of time.
他们发现自己无法承担战争费用。好了。显然，这本书涵盖了很长一段时间。
简单来说，这句话的意思是那些人发现他们没有足够的财力支持战争，而这本书讲述了很长一段时间的历史。
What was the situation in England and France in the 17th century? So the 17th and the 17th century said that the first, and then maybe actually I could have bought it out a bit more. But the reason why I think Spain failed was that they had all this silver and gold, but they didn't really have the institutions to manage it. OK.
在17世纪的英国和法国，情况如何？17世纪首先是第一次，然后也许实际上我本来可以再说得清楚一些。但我认为西班牙失败的原因是他们有许多银和金，但他们并没有真正拥有管理它们的机构。
And so what's interesting about the second chapter is, really, you've got a bank of England, which was essentially a kind of stepchild of the bank of Amsterdam, Dutch finance. So what from a history of finance, one to view, 1688, which we know is, since 1989, is the greatest revolution.
第二章有趣的地方在于，英格兰银行实际上是荷兰金融业的孩子，所以从金融史的角度来看，我们可以将1688年视为最伟大的革命，因为我们知道自1989年以来，这个时期有极大的变革。
It becomes interesting because you have essentially a William III who's a Dutch prince coming over his king. And what he did was he introduced Dutch finance. So the Dutch were at the head of sort of financial innovation. He comes into Britain rather England and introduces a lot of the measures.
这件事很有趣，因为你实际上有一个荷兰王子威廉三世即位为英国君主。他引入了荷兰的金融制度，因为荷兰在金融创新方面处于领先地位。他来到英国后，引进了许多这些措施。
So they've got to raise money again to fight war. And one of the things that they discover, or the devises the Bank of England, which itself is modeled on the Bank of Amsterdam, and lends money to the government, that's its principle function.
因此他们需要再次筹集资金来进行战争。其中一个发现是，英格兰银行，该银行本身是模仿阿姆斯特丹银行，向政府借钱，这是它的主要功能。
And so what you have in England is, for the time, a very well-developed financial sector. And that's what essentially propels the growth of England and the growth of Britain as a power.
在英国，你所看到的是目前非常发达的金融行业。这本质上推动了英国的增长和英国作为强国的发展。
France, by contrast, it's very interesting. It's very interesting to study. And one thing that the most important thing to remember about the history of the period, that people forget. But because today, and this is why they forget it, today Britain and France have very similar populations in terms of numbers.
相比之下，法国非常有趣。它非常有趣去研究。这个时期的历史中最重要的一件事是人们会忘记。但因为现在，这就是为什么他们忘记它的原因，因为今天英国和法国在人口上非常相似。
We're both roughly 60, 65, whatever million. We're pretty much equal. In 1700, the population of France was about 20 million. And the population of England was about 5 million. So you're looking at a 4-to-1 ratio. So in all, you know, even as the ladies 1815, the ratio was probably not that far off 2-to-1.
我们两个大约都有六十五百万人口。我们几乎是相等的。在1700年，法国的人口大约有两千万。而英格兰的人口大约有五百万。所以你看到一个四比一的比例。因此，在1815年，即使是女性，比例也可能不到两比一。
So what people don't realize in terms of the, you see it in Shakespeare and Henry V. All of that against France is that it's the little plucky England against the big minor France, because to the 16th century and the 17th century London, an Englishman. France is a big, beast, it's a big power. Very big physical countries it is today, but actually had many more people and actually more resources, ostensibly to draw from.
人们不明白的是，在莎士比亚和《亨利五世》中所表现的反对法国的情况，其实是小而坚韧的英格兰对抗大而次要的法国。在16世纪和17世纪的伦敦，对于一个英格兰人来说，法国是一个庞大的野兽，是一个大国。如今，它是一个很大的国家，但实际上拥有更多的人口和更多的资源，表面上可以获得更多的支持和资源。
But one of the things that England had in this period, suddenly at the end of the 17th century that France didn't, was a much more sophisticated financial system. And so the financial system is more, it's pure leverage in the sense that the smaller part can become much bigger and can command bigger and better resources, which sort of draws of the balance equalise the balance between England and France.
但在17世纪末期，英国拥有而法国没有的一件事情，就是更为复杂的金融体系。因此，金融系统更具杠杆作用，就是说较小的部分可以变得更大，并且可以控制更大和更好的资源，这种平衡的吸引力使英国和法国之间的平衡得到了均衡。
What effect did the introduction of paper money have on global finance? I think paper money is one of the great inventions and some people might say they're great curse, because once you, if your currency is linked to a commodity, there's a natural limit to how much money you can have. So things like the gold standard means that the currency, the paper money which you have, the paper notes, are linked to a gold standard. In what's called a theat money system, you can literally just print money. And that's essentially the system that's operated since 1971, which is one of the big sections of my book, The Last Barad, is that we've been able to essentially allow central banks to print money. And that's what they do, things like QE, lots of different fancy words for it. But that's essentially what they're doing.
纸币的引入对全球金融产生了什么影响？我认为纸币是伟大的发明之一，有些人可能会说它们是伟大的诅咒，因为一旦你的货币与商品挂钩，你拥有的货币就有一定的自然限制。所以像黄金标准（gold standard）这样的东西意味着你拥有的纸币、纸钞与黄金标准挂钩。在所谓的戏剧货币体系中，你可以随意地印钞票。这基本上是从1971年以来一直运行的系统之一，这也是我所著《最后的坝》中的一个重大部分，我们已经能够让中央银行随意印钞票。这就是它们所做的事情，像量化宽松（QE）这样的很多不同的花哨的词语。但这基本上就是他们所做的事情。
And I think what that means is that, so credit, you can have credit bubbles. I mean, that's one of the points I'm making the credit bubbles are much more frequent now than they probably were before 1971. You could borrow money very easily, because there's no, what they call, a frasional reserve, which means that the bank has to have a certain amount of reserve. And in the old days, it was a gold, good, good, you know. So all things like that mean that paper money makes debt a lot easier to raise debt. Right. But the flip side of it is it's a lot easier to have these bubbles where people are borrowing money, buying stuff and forcing prices up. So it's a lot more unstable in that sense? Yeah, it is. I think that's a very, I think it is.
我认为这意味着，信用泡沫会出现。我的一个论点就是，在1971年之前，信用泡沫比现在少得多。因为现在很容易借钱，因为没有所谓的存款准备金，也就是银行必须拥有一定量的储备金。在以前，黄金是好的，很多人都知道。所以这些都意味着，纸币使得债务变得更容易筹集。但反过来，人们更容易因为借钱购买东西，推高物价而产生这些泡沫。所以在这个意义上，情况更加不稳定。
I think that's generally accepted. Now the practicalities of going back to Gold Standard are such that that's not very unlikely to happen. But I think there was a stability in gold, which perhaps we've lost in this area of paper money. I mean, following the introduction of paper money, people seem to kind of cling onto the idea of gold, and even the gold standard. That's right.
我认为这是被普遍接受的。然而，回到金本位制的实际情况是非常不可能的。但我认为黄金带来的稳定性，在纸币领域我们可能已经失去了。我指的是，在纸币出现之后，人们似乎仍然坚持黄金甚至黄金标准的观念。没错。
I mean, one of the things that's happened over the last 40 years is that the price of gold has shot up. So the old Bretton Woods price of gold was $35 an ounce. Today, it's about $1300 an ounce. So you can see over that period of time how gold has essentially increased in value, I guess, against the dollar. Larger, I think, because of this paper money issue. But also, I mean, people in Bretton today, there are people alive in Bretton today who certainly remember pounds, shillings and pounds. And some people, older people, would have had experience. Not of the gold standard, but they would have been sort of aware of it. You know, Bretton left the gold standard in 1931. 83 years ago. It's a very long time ago. But it's not so long ago that it's something that we can't imagine.
我的意思是，过去40年里发生的其中一件事就是金价飙升了。所以旧的布雷顿森林金价是每盎司35美元。而今天，金价大约是每盎司1300美元。因此，在这段时间内，我们可以看到黄金基本上是针对美元价格上涨了。我认为这主要是由于纸币问题造成的。但是，布雷顿的人们中有些人今天仍然记得英镑、先令和便士。一些年长的人可能没有经历过金本位制，但他们有意识地知道这种制度。你知道，布雷顿于1931年退出了金本位制，那已经是83年前的事情了。虽然已经很久远了，但这并不是我们无法想象的事情。
And actually, another point about paper money is that, you know, if you look at things like house prices, before 1970, let's say, inflation wasn't, it existed, but it wasn't rampant. So if you read Dickens or Emma, sorry, Jane Austen, Emma, the sums of money there are roughly, they're quite stable. And then it was only really, the inflation only really got going in the 70s. Right. And you see that in house prices and all of that. So we had a big effect, this kind of shift from gold to paper. Yeah, I think at the time, I think it's been a fundamental shift. I think, you know, big inflation, house price boons, access to credit, credit cards, all of that sort of thing. I think it's been, you know, it's transformed the world we live in.
实际上，关于纸币还有一个问题，就是如果你看看像房价这样的东西，说到1970年以前，通货膨胀存在，但不是猖狂的。因此，如果你读狄更斯或者简·奥斯汀的《艾玛》，那里的钱数差不多是稳定的。但在70年代，通货膨胀才真正开始了。你可以在房价等方面看到这一点。因此，我们这种从黄金转向纸币的转变产生了巨大的影响。我认为，当时这是一个根本性的转变。大规模通胀、房价暴涨、可以获得的信贷、信用卡等一系列东西。我认为，这改变了我们所生活的世界。
I mean, we'll come back to the modern era a bit later. But kind of heading back, I suppose, to the early part of the 20th century. And then you know, you know, you know, the first world war, obviously a big, a big thing, this year with the anniversary. I mean, how can we understand it in purely financial terms? What effect to have on your.
我的意思是，稍后我们会回到现代时代。但是现在，我想我们可以回到20世纪初。当然，第一次世界大战是一个重要的事件，今年是它的纪念日。那么，我们怎么用纯经济术语来理解它呢？它对你产生了什么影响？
Well, I think the first world war was probably the big watershed in terms of, you know, financial history. Because up to that point, essentially, the 50 years before the first world war, you had the establishment of the gold standard around sort of the western world. And it went back to the gold standard in 1919. But in the late 90th century, you're getting countries like Germany, I think Japan, United States, adopting the gold standard really for the first time in many ways.
我认为第一次世界大战很可能是财务历史上的大分水岭。因为在那之前的50年，基本上在西方世界确立了金本位制。虽然1919年恢复了金本位，但在19世纪后期，德国、日本、美国等国家开始采用金本位制，这在很多方面都是第一次。
The Americans had it at the end of the 18th century, but obviously it was suspended in the Civil War. But they went back to it. And so you have this very old period, and we're columnists, refer to it, of sort of, you know, proto-globalization.
在18世纪末，美国人已经有了它，但显然在内战中暂停了。但他们又回到了它。因此，你有了这个非常古老的时期，我们这些专栏作家称之为早期全球化的雏形。意思是，美国在过去的历史上已经经历了早期的全球化。
Between about 1819, 1914, I described that world through the eyes of John Maynard Cain because he lived through it and was very articulate describing it. You have a world in which, you know, there's free movement of labour, then there are really strong immigration rules. And that's all something I talk about, but there's certainly free movement of capital.
从大约1819到1914年间，我通过约翰·梅纳德·凯恩的视角来描述了那个世界，因为他经历了那个时期，非常善于描述。在这个世界里，劳动力可以自由流动，但是移民规定非常严格。我讨论了这些问题，但是资本却有自由流动。
You can pick up a phone and buy a share of it. You didn't really have passports before 1914. So you have this sort of liberal world where capital and goods and people could live freely. And the first world will change all of that. So the first one of the first things in the first world war, the banks stop paying gold. There is, I think, my argument is that a lot of the financial muscle goes over to America when they didn't stop paying gold. And also Britain, which for about 90 years, 800 years, up to 1915, has essentially been running balanced budgets.
你可以拿起电话购买一股股票。在1914年之前，你并不真正需要护照。因此，你可以享有资本、货物和人自由流动的自由主义世界。而第一次世界大战将彻底改变这一切。所以，首先在第一次世界大战中，银行停止了黄金支付。我认为，我的论点是，当他们停止支付黄金时，很多金融实力转移到了美国。此外，英国自1915年以来的90年（800年）基本上一直在运作平衡预算。
Britain becomes a debt financing country. So in order to win the war, in order to beat the Kaiser, we borrow lots of money. And essentially print money. We come off the gold standard and we borrow lots of selling to buy stuff, to buy things with which to win the war.
英国成为一债务融资国。为了赢得战争，为了打败凯撒皇帝，我们借了很多钱。基本上像印钞一样。我们脱离了金本位制度，借了很多钱来买东西，来购买我们赢得战争所需的物品。
Because people might not know about the Bretton Woods situation. Could you explain perhaps that? Yeah, Bretton Woods was a conference in 1944, which was to decide what would happen to the global financial system after the war.
因为人们可能不了解布雷顿森林的情况，你可以解释一下吗？是的，布雷顿森林是1944年的一次会议，旨在决定战后全球金融体系的走向。
And so if you're sitting in 1944 looking back in the last 100 years, the first, you know, from 1840 to 1914 was the evolution of the gold standard. By 1914, you had a very stable situation at the point just before the first world war. When the first world war starts, lots of deficits, spending, this gold standard is suspended. And so the interwar period is really, they're trying to work out how to get back to some sort of stability.
因此，如果您坐在1944年，回顾过去的100年，第一个时期从1840年到1914年是黄金标准的发展。到1914年，第一次世界大战之前的情况非常稳定。当第一次世界大战爆发时，出现了很多赤字、支出，这个黄金标准被暂停了。因此，战间期真正的问题是，他们试图找出如何恢复某种稳定。
And so they get back onto the gold standard. And then there's all this credit boom and all the rest of it. And the crash happens. And a whole bunch of them leave the gold standard to try and, because the pain's really said, we're losing our gold and fetters. And so at that point, they just, they have to decide, OK, so what are we going to do?
于是他们回归黄金标准。然后出现了所有这些信贷繁荣和其他事情。最终经济崩溃。其中一大部分人离开了黄金标准，尝试摆脱困境，因为他们在失去黄金和枷锁。此时，他们必须做出决定，那就是我们该怎么办？
And I think the really interesting thing about Bretton Woods is that this, you know, very chic, I suppose it was then, resorting in New Hampshire. You have people, I think, from our 40 different countries, 39 different countries, representatives debating and sort of drawing up measures as to how the world should organize its financial affairs after the war. And what I say is the most interesting thing is, is that they still had quite a big role for gold.
我认为布雷顿森林最有趣的地方是，这个在新罕布什尔州被认为非常时髦的度假胜地，聚集了来自40个国家的代表，讨论和制定措施，以确定战后世界应该如何组织金融事务。最有趣的是，他们仍然赋予黄金相当重要的角色。
Right. Despite all the agonies of the depression and the traumas of devaluation and the traumas of leaving the gold standard and all of that stuff in the world war, they're still, it's quite curious actually that they still have this, they go back to a system where the dollars essentially pack to gold. And that, you know, it dominates international finance for the 25 years.
尽管在大萧条、货币贬值、离开金本位和世界大战的创伤中，经历了种种痛苦，但仍很奇妙的是，他们仍然回归到以美元为主体、以黄金为支撑的金本位系统中。这个系统支配了国际金融25年。
So moving forward to the second world war, what effect, how did that change the balance of financial power and stability in your and in America? I think the second world war was fascinating. So in my own view, which comes out in the book, is that after the first world war, America was sort of the top dog. But no one really admitted it. OK.
转向第二次世界大战，它对您和美国的财政力量和稳定产生了什么影响？我认为第二次世界大战非常有趣。在我看来，根据本书体现的观点，一战后美国成为了头号大国。但是没有人真正承认这一点。
I mean, it was kind of known, but it wasn't obvious. Because the second world war, it was obvious that the United States of America was the preeminent military and financial and economic power. There was no question. But then after the second world war, America was the number one top nation. And actually Churchill, you know, in his sort of flippant way, said, well, you know, if I would want to get, I'd want to be America.
我的意思是，这个情况有点为人所知，但并不显而易见。因为第二次世界大战，美国显然成为了最强的军事、财经和经济大国，毋庸置疑。但是在第二次世界大战之后，美国成为了全球排名第一的国家。实际上，邱吉尔在他那种轻率的方式中说，如果我能选择，我会选择成为美国。
You know, I mean, he was born in the age of before when Britain was the top. Well, you can see, and actually, you know, I'd quote a figure. I think something like the figure I remember was on that 50% of global GDP in 1945 was America. And so you had this situation where I don't think, and I mentioned this, and I don't think any time the history of the world, maybe Imperial Rome, but I don't know.
你知道的，我的意思是，他出生在英国仍然是全球霸主的那个年代。实际上，你可以看到，我记得有一个数字，我认为是1945年美国占据全球GDP的50%左右。所以你会发现这种情况从未在历史上发生过，也许只有古罗马帝国，但我不确定。
I haven't seen the figures. If there are any figures. But I don't think it was very rare that one particular nation should have such a vast share of the global economy. And I think in 45, if you look, if one looked around the world, you would see that America was the, you know, certainly outside the Soviet block, was the predominant power.
我没有看到数据，如果有数据的话。但我认为，某一个特定国家拥有如此巨大的全球经济份额并不是很罕见。如果你看一下1945年的世界，除了苏联以外，美国显然是主导国家。
In terms of the post-second world war period, which global powers do you see as emerging on the world stage as having a huge impact on the way the finance? I think China is obviously the big story of our time, the last 25 years. And we'll probably continue to be a big, more big story in the next sort of period.
在二战后的时期，你认为哪些全球大国正在崛起并对金融方式产生巨大影响？我认为中国显然是我们这个时代最重要的大事件，过去25年的最大故事。在未来的时期，我们可能会继续看到中国成为更大的故事。
I mean, essentially, you've got vast numbers of people who are all aspiring to a kind of middle-class lifestyle, a large section of whom are aspiring to a middle-class lifestyle. They were, you know, 49, the communists took over. For 30 years after that, it was a communist sort of command economy. The same shopping comes in in 78 and essentially completely reforms the nature of the Chinese state and some of the only economic side of things. And so in the last sort of 30 years, 35 years, you've had this growing economic powerhouse essentially, they've given up the Marxist organization of their society, the strictly Marxist, I mean, the party is normally Marxist, but they're essentially bureaucrats.
我是说，基本上，你有大量人们都渴望一种中产阶级的生活方式，其中很大一部分人渴望中产阶级的生活方式。他们，你知道，49年，共产党掌权了。在此之后的30年里，它是一个共产主义的指挥经济。同样的购物在78年进入，基本上完全改革了中国国家的性质和一些经济方面的东西。所以在过去的30年或35年里，你有这个日益壮大的经济强国，他们已经放弃了他们社会的马克思主义组织，严格的马克思主义意义上，我的意思是，党通常是马克思主义者，但他们实际上是官僚主义者。
And they've tried to unleash, you know, this capitalist sort of giant. On this huge scale, so that's had massive impact across the world. I mean, I could have taught you, you could write a whole book of that length about this, you know, across Africa and across, you know, parts of the developing world, large deposits, don't know, well, and also within their inspiration for insinuation.
他们试图释放这个资本主义巨人，对世界产生了巨大的影响。这在全球范围内非常严重，我觉得我可以教给你，你可以写一本关于这一点的书，跨越整个非洲和发展中的一些地区，这里有大量储量，而且还有他们的灵感和影响力。
I mean, I suppose the other big story post-war has been the establishment of the year. That's right. So that was another thing. I mean, it's quite an extraordinary process, I mean, I think the euro, I think it was, again, I mean, I try to bring it out in the book. It was a long project. I mean, it wasn't something that was dream-drawn by people, you know, in the 80s and 90s. It was something that was a long-drawn-out project. And actually, you know, whether you love a loath for European Union and the European project, you have to admire the strategic vision of things like the single currency.
我的意思是，我认为战后另一个重要的故事就是成立了欧元。没错，那是另一件事。我觉得这是一段非常了不起的历程。欧元，我认为，在书中也有提到，这是一个漫长的项目。这不是80年代和90年代的人们做梦想象出来的东西。这是一个长期的、漫长的项目。实际上，无论你是喜欢还是厌恶欧盟和欧洲项目，你都必须钦佩像单一货币这样的战略视野。
And actually that's one of the things I try and tease out of the book. For British politicians, we don't really have that sort of strategic view that they have in the sense that we think they're coming up with all these madcap schemes. And actually there's a sort of method to the madcap. It's part of a much bigger, much longer story, a bigger architecture than we're conscious of as politicians in Britain. I mean, you do see as being the winners and the losers of that whole big massive challenge.
其实这是本书中我试图挖掘出的一个要点。对于英国政治家来说，我们没有像他们那样具有战略眼光，我们认为他们提出了所有这些疯狂的计划。实际上，这种疯狂计划中有一种方法。它是一个更大、更长的故事的一部分，比我们作为英国政治家所意识到的更大的架构。我的意思是说，你会看到那些整个巨大挑战的赢家和输家。
I think the Germans have done well out of it. Because I think they always understood the nature of what it would mean. I think they knew that the euro would be, that they essentially had a strong currency and in order to compete, they would have to lower their cost because the euro would be a weaker currency. So their exports would be more expensive to other people. So they planned and adapted themselves to that situation. The people who did very badly out of it were the fringe euro countries. It's more particularly Greece and Spain to a lesser degree. And essentially what happened, I talk about it in the book.
我认为德国从欧元受益良多。因为我认为他们一直理解这意味着什么。我认为他们知道欧元本质上是一种强势货币，为了竞争，他们不得不降低成本，因为欧元将成为一种较弱的货币。因此，他们计划并适应了这种情况。那些在欧元上表现很糟糕的是边缘欧元区国家，特别是希腊和西班牙，少一点。而基本上发生的情况，我在书中有提到。
If you're a bad credit and you want to borrow money, you have to pay a lot of high interest rates. So in the, in the draftment days and the lira days, these governments would say, look, you know, it lenders 100 million lira or whatever it was over five years. And the investors would say, okay, well, charge you 10%. They'd get 10 years, well, charge you 10%. High interest rates. As they joined the euro, because it was all the same currency, their interest rates, that they could, they could borrow at were much lower. Okay. So what you would do, I think what a rational person would do in that situation, if their interest rates were getting lower, they would try and borrow the money and pay off debt. Whereas they just simply borrow money.
如果你信用不好但想借钱，你必须支付高利率。因此，在旧时代和里拉时代，这些政府会说，借给你1亿里拉或者其他币种，期限为5年。投资者会说，好的，我们会收取10% 的利息，期限为10年。由于加入欧元区，因为货币相同，他们能够借入的利率大大降低了。因此，在这种情况下，理性的人可能会尝试借钱来还债，而他们只是简单地去借钱。
And I mean, conversely, you like that this whole story has been characterized by moments of madness. Yes. And there has been one particular period of being really negative or confusing. And it's, I think, well, I think you could argue the period of between about 71 more broadly, but lastly, the last 15 years, up to 2008, there was some pretty crazy stuff.
我的意思是，相反地，你喜欢整个故事都有疯狂的时刻。是的。有一个特定的时期非常消极或令人困惑。我认为可以辩称大约是71年之间的那个时期，但近15年，直到2008年，发生了一些非常疯狂的事情。
And when I talk about, you know, these mortgage lenders in the United States, you know, people who were essentially writing out checks for people who didn't have an income, so they couldn't pay the interest on these loans. That was a moment of madness. The Spanish sort of bid for world, Germany and power was probably a moment of madness. The South Sea bubble was a sort of moment of madness. Yeah, there are lots of moments of madness in the course of the book. And I think that that's part of the sort of dynamic of the book.
谈到美国抵押贷款的放贷者，他们实际上为那些没有收入无法支付贷款利息的人开具支票时，那是一种疯狂的时刻。西班牙争夺世界、德国的权力也可能是一个疯狂的时刻。南海泡沫也是一种疯狂的时刻。在本书中有许多这样的疯狂时刻。我认为这是书籍动态的一部分。
I mean, I mentioned the preface that my original title was Order and Chaos, because I see the periods of chaos falling order. And it's quite, you know, the last of three or four hundred years. That's probably quite a good moral of thinking about it. And I think at the moment we're kind of probably trying to come to the end of the period of chaos. We're going to try and work out more stable system paths.
我的原始标题是“秩序与混沌”，我在前言中提到了这一点，因为我认为混沌时期往往会滋长出秩序。这种情况在过去三、四百年中是比较明显的，从中我们可以得到很好的启示。目前，我们可能正在努力结束混沌时期，尝试找到更稳定的制度路径。
And given the whole sickening nature that you're describing in the book, how do you think we can escape? Yeah, I think. I mean, I tend to have an orthodox view in that I think government expenditure needs to be addressed. And I think that's something that people would find probably more acceptable in an earlier time. And that's clearly an important factor. I also think that access needs to be slightly more regulated, probably, this is key.
考虑到你在书中描述的病态本质，你认为我们如何才能逃脱呢？嗯，我认为。我的观点比较正统，我认为政府支出需要得到关注。我认为在以前的时间里，人们可能更容易接受这种观点。这显然是一个重要因素。另外，我认为必须对准入进行稍微更严格的管制，这是关键。
What was the thing that surprised you the most? In researching the book, I think the repetition, you know, one thing that I discovered, which I didn't think it was, has touched on, is that the. If you look, there was a minor crisis in 1825. It was quite a big crisis at that time. It was exactly the same in many ways as what happened in 2008. It had a low interest rate environment.
你最惊讶的事情是什么？在研究这本书时，我认为最让我意外的是重复性。我发现了一个我没有想到却经常出现的问题，那就是1825年的一次小危机。在当时，它是一个相当大的危机。它在很多方面与2008年发生的危机非常相似，其中低利率环境是其中之一。
And what happens in low interest rate is that bankers and people want to get higher returns. I think it's their point by government securities. I can only get 2%. So why don't we buy Argentinian government railway bonds? That's 7%. And they described these Victorian. They don't even even talk about their pre-Victorian bankers. They described this crazy search for yield, which encourages people to do the speculative investments. And then, of course, they all come. They all blow up.
低利率时，银行家和人们都希望得到更高的回报。我认为他们会在政府证券上下功夫。我只能获得2％的回报，那么为什么不买阿根廷政府的铁路债券呢？那可是7％的回报！他们把这些银行家描述成维多利亚时代的，甚至没有提到他们之前的银行家。这种疯狂的收益追求鼓励人们进行投机性的投资。当然，最终会导致所有人都亏损破产。
And there were descriptions. And that. It was very similar to what happened, actually, in the last period before 2008. You have very low interest rates because there was. You know, people wanted. After 9 and 11, people were trying to stimulate the economy. The Fed had low interest rates in Greenspan and all that sort of stuff. And as a consequence, if you're a bankersitting in Iowa, you don't want to buy a US government debt and get 2%, but you want to lend to Mexicans who are going to promise you to. Who are you going to say? They're going to. Borough, Temperson. Yeah. And then you get the yield. And of course, it all works fine and done until they can't pay. And so the whole.
有描述，还有那个。实际上，这与2008年之前的最后一段时间非常相似。由于民众想要刺激经济，在9/11事件之后，联邦储备委员会维持了格林斯潘等人的低利率政策。因此，如果你坐在艾奥瓦州的银行家，你不想购买2%的美国政府债券，而是想借钱给墨西哥人并且他们许下了承诺。你会说谁？他们会。Borough、Temperson等等。这样你就获得了收益，当然，一切都进行得很顺利，直到他们不能还款为止，整个问题就出现了。
The railing has to be written now. But that's. Not that really interested me as a sort of historian of the economy of fighting that really interested me. And there were other instances where the same sort of patterns, you know, after walls, you know, you print money and then once the walls won, you try and go back to some sort of orthodoxy.
现在必须起草一份栏杆文件。但对我来说，作为一名战斗经济史学家，我真正感兴趣的并不是这个。在其他情况下也出现了这种模式，例如城墙之后，你印钞票，一旦城墙胜利，你就试图回到某种正统。
We did that in 1819 after the Ponyonic War. We tried to do the same thing in 25. And then we. And those sort of patterns I found really interesting.
我们在1819年的波尼战争后做到了这一点。我们尝试在25年做同样的事情。然后我们做了。我发现这种模式真的很有趣。
意思：我们在1819年的波尼战争后成功实现了这一点，后来在1825年又尝试重复，最后也成功实现了。这样的模式让我感到非常有趣。
And the only way to kind of tie things together at the end, I suppose, is that we're saying the links are between wall and expansion. Yes. So wall and. What I would say is that you have a gold standard, let's say, the model starts its stability. And then you have to fight a wall for whatever reason. And the problem of thinking about walls is that they're bloody expensive. And so the only way you can actually really buy stuff is by printing your own money.
结束时想要将一切联系起来的唯一方法，我想，就是说我们在说墙和扩张之间的联系。是的，墙和扩张之间的联系。我的意思是，你有一个黄金标准，比如模型开始时的稳定性。然后你不得不为某些原因与墙争斗。思考墙的问题在于，它们非常昂贵。因此，你实际上唯一的购买方式就是印刷自己的货币。
So you say, forget all that gold standard stuff. We're going to borrow as much money as we can, sort of pick the money and then spend it on stuff. And then the one thing finance it, they think we're in a bit of a bother. We need to try and get fiscal orthodoxy again. And it's this sort of cycle that I try and describe throughout the book. And that's what shapes an artist.
那么你的意思是，我们不考虑黄金标准之类的东西，尽可能地借钱，再挑选一些东西来花钱。但财政专家们认为我们处境有些危险。我们需要重回财政正统。这是我在本书中试图描述的循环。而这正是塑造艺术家的东西。
Fantastic. And finally, what do you understand of the story of money or finance? Would you like me to leave this book? I just like to think. You know, I think the most important thing is, if you think it's happened before, it probably has happened before. Because in terms of finance and the way people are, there's an incredible close connection I think between what's happening in the past and what's happening now. Largely a function of human nature. In terms of how we try and survive, how states and nations try and conduct themselves. And I think looking at history is a classic case in which the past does inform what's going to happen in the future. And who gives you an idea of what's going to happen in the future?
太棒了。最后，你对金钱或财务的故事理解如何？你想让我离开这本书吗？我只是想思考。你知道，我认为最重要的事情是，如果你认为这种情况以前发生过，那么它很可能确实已经发生过了。因为就金融和人们的方式而言，我认为过去发生的事情和现在发生的事情之间有着令人难以置信的密切联系。这在很大程度上是人类本性的体现，与我们如何尝试生存，国家和民族如何进行自我治理有关。我认为研究历史是一个经典案例，过去确实会为未来提供启示。而谁能让你了解未来会发生什么？
Because states are greedy. They spend money. They like borrowing money. They go to war. All these demands are things that have shaped the world for the modern world for centuries. And I think understanding the sort of dynamic between these two is very important to understanding what the future might bring. That was Quasi Quarting. War and gold, a 500 year history of empires, adventure and debt, is out now published by Bloomsbury in the UK and public affairs in the US. And in Quasi we'll be talking about his book at our History Weekend Festival, for which tickets are still on sale. Visit historyweekend.com for tickets and information. And if you'd like to read more from Quasi and Matt, you'll find an interview in the July issue of BBC History magazine, which is now on sale.
因为国家都很贪婪，他们花钱，喜欢借钱，参与战争。这些需求在现代世界已经形成了数百年，塑造了世界的模样。我认为，了解这两者之间的相互关系对于理解未来可能会带来的情况非常重要。这是Quasi Quarting的看法。现在，出版社Bloomsbury在英国和Public Affairs在美国出版了他的作品《战争和黄金：500年的帝国、冒险和债务历史》。在我们的History Weekend Festival上，我们将与Quasi讨论他的书，门票仍在出售中。请访问historyweekend.com了解门票和信息。如果您想阅读更多Quasi和Matt的作品，请购买7月份发售的BBC History杂志。
Also this month we take a look inside the mind of Rich the Third, we explore some myths of the Wild West, we find out why the Battle of Bannockburn became so integral to Scottish history, and discover the story of the Victorian letter scammers. You can get hold of our July issue now in all good news agents and digitally. For our July issue we've launched a fully interactive iPad edition, especially designed for the format. If you do happen to have an iPad, this would be a great time to give it a try. You can find the BBC History magazine app on the new stand, or iTunes, or else fire our website, and if you take out a subscription your first issue is free.
在这个月，我们深入了解Rich the Third的内心世界，探讨一些西部荒野的神话，了解Bannockburn战役为何成为苏格兰历史不可或缺的一部分，并发现了维多利亚时期的信件诈骗故事。您现在可以通过所有好的新闻代理商和数字渠道获取我们的七月份杂志。对于我们的七月份杂志，我们推出了专为iPad设计的全方位交互式版。如果你恰好有一个iPad，那么现在是尝试一下的好时机。您可以在新的展台、iTunes或者我们的网站上找到BBC历史杂志应用程序。如果您订阅新杂志，第一期将会免费。
Much has been written in this centenary year about the causes of the First World War, its huge scale and many consequences. But what was day-to-day life like on the front line? That's the subject of Richard Van Menden's new book, Tommy's War, which collects soldiers first-hand accounts and photographs to tell their stories. Matt Elson spoke to him earlier this month, and started by asking him what prompted him to write this book.
在百年纪念一战的这一年里，关于其原因、规模和后果已有许多文章写就。但是，前线的日常生活是什么样子的呢？这是Richard Van Menden新书《汤米的战争》的主题，该书收集了士兵的第一手描述和照片，讲述了他们的故事。Matt Elson本月早些时候采访了他，并开始询问他撰写这本书的动机是什么。
Well, I'm always keen to look for new angles when writing about the Great War. I mean, so many people say to me, it must have been written out by now, every general has been talked about, every battle has been examined. But actually, there are many, many new stories you can look at, and one that absolutely fascinated me was to try and put together a book which I felt had never been done before, in which you put together contemporary documents, contemporary memoirs, contemporary writings by the veterans themselves, with the photographs that they themselves took. So these men who took a cameras to the war, they took photographs throughout the 1418 period. So they took a look at them to marry those together with the words that they wrote, sometimes under fire, sometimes maybe a week afterwards. But there was not a single story in this book that goes beyond the Great War.
我写关于一战的文章时，总是很热衷于寻找新角度。有很多人跟我说，这个话题已经被写烂了，每个将军的事迹、每场战役的细节都被仔细研究过了。但实际上，你可以从许多新的视角来看待这个话题。我深深地被其中一种视角所吸引，那就是尝试撰写一本全新的书籍，将当时的文件、回忆录和老兵们的当时写下的文字，以及他们亲自拍摄的照片结合起来。这些士兵们在战争时带着相机，记录了整个1914-1918的时期。我们试图将这些照片和他们在枪林弹雨中或者在一周后所写下的文字结合起来。但这本书中没有一篇故事是超越了一战的。
Talking about these photos and these records, where did you find them? What sort of sources did you use to find these accounts? Well, I have bought over many, many years, I mean, not dozens, but hundreds of out-of-print memoirs, books that were written during the course of the war or shortly afterwards from Darius, written by these men. And these books have literally been lost. I mean, they've just been out of print for 60, 70, 80 years. No one really knows about them. So a lot of the material came from those sorts of books, which I felt were just completely unexplored. Plus, also documents from the Imperial War Museum, from regimental archives, from the national archives. And from friends as well, you know, when you've been in the sort of first world or industry as I have for over 30 years, you make great contacts and you have people who say, look, I've got this wonderful selection of letters, would you like to use them? So it's really a collection from all over the place built up over, as I say, over three decades.
谈论这些照片和记录，你是从哪里找到它们的？你使用了什么样的来源来找到这些记载？嗯，我买了很多年，不是几十本，而是数百本已经绝版的回忆录和在战争期间或战后不久写成的书籍，这些书是由这些人所写的。这些书实际上已经失落了。我的意思是，它们已经超过了60、70、80年的时间，不再出版。没有人真正知道它们。因此，很多材料来自于这些我认为完全未被开发的书籍。此外，还有来自帝国战争博物馆、团队档案馆、国家档案馆的文件，以及来自朋友的资料。你知道，当你像我这样在第一次世界大战行业工作了三十多年，你会有很多好的联系人，他们会说：“看，我有这么一批精彩的信件，你想用吗？”所以它真的是从各个地方收集起来的，如我所说，三十年来逐渐积累。
So what impression do we get of the men who made these documents in these photographs? Well, the impression you get is very strongly that they are just like you and me. I mean, you hear their voice at the time, you hear about their fears and concerns, their anxieties for their own sort of well-being and those of their families. And you hear two from men who were clearly desperate to survive, but men who also understood, you know, they're sort of duty, not just to their country, but to their comrades. And they sort of, that comes across very, very strongly throughout the book that these men, you know, they're no different from us.
这些照片中拍摄的制作这些文件的人给我们的印象是什么？我们的印象非常强烈地表明他们和我们一样。我是说，你们当时听到了他们的声音，听到了他们的恐惧和关注他们自己和家人的幸福和福利方面的焦虑。还有，你还可以听到那些非常渴望存活下去的人的声音，但同时他们也明白，他们除了要为自己的国家贡献的义务之外，还要为自己的战友做出贡献。这在整本书中非常强烈地体现出来，这些人和我们并没有什么不同。
You know, this is only a hundred years ago. So it's really helping, you know, what fascinates me is how these people put up with what they did. And when I can feel, when I can see, when I can read that these people are no different from me from my best friends, then it really does give you a sense of awe as to what they put up with. And that, I think, is the greatest impression I get from these accounts.
你知道，这只有一百年前的事情。所以真的让我感到惊讶的是这些人是如何忍受他们所经历的。当我感受到、看到、读到这些人跟我的最好的朋友并没有什么不同时，我真的感到很敬畏，感到他们所经历的是多么不容易。我想这就是我从这些记述中得到的最强烈的印象。
So what's an opinion of the accounts cover? They cover right from the outbreak of war all the way through to the armistice. As I say, every single story has to be written before the end of the Great War. So you've literally got men joining up in 1914, talking about and listening to some very, very funny stories from individuals queuing up in the sort of London in the centre of London, trying to enlist with people without, you know, people standing next to them, that shoes on others with bowl of hats, you know, they're all, everything from the old, with, with, with, really, buddies, with the Hoi Palloy right up to the, the great and the good, really.
那么账目的观点是什么？它们覆盖了从战争爆发一直到停战的整个过程。正如我所说，每个故事都必须在一战结束之前写完。因此，你可以听到自1914年以来加入部队的人们的故事，包括在伦敦中心排队入伍的人们之间的非常有趣的故事，有些人没有穿鞋，有些人头戴碗帽，从平民到显贵都有。
I mean, everybody joined up and, and, and, and so you get stories like that all the way through to their training, to their first experiences in France. As I say, all the way through to the great battles of the Sarm and, and, and 30, through to the armistice. And what impression then I suppose do we get of people's first experiences of the war, kind of being on the front line for the first time? Well you get a sense of wonder.
我的意思是，每个人都加入了军队，所以你会听到从他们接受培训开始，直到他们在法国的第一次经历，一路经历到萨尔姆的伟大战役，直至停战。我想我们能从中得到的印象是，人们第一次亲身经历战争时的感受。你会感到一种奇迹。
I mean, a lot of soldiers, I mean, one of the things that, that, that, that, that, so many soldiers did and didn't, didn't, lived to see the following morning, it was, it, it's that kind of childlike interest in what, and everything that was going on around them, that first time in the trench, I mean, there's one soldier who writes about, you know, the kind of, wow, here I am, I mean, the front line trench, there is, there, there, I mean, there's nothing between me and the Germans.
我的意思是，很多士兵，我是说，其中一件事情，是那么多的士兵做了而没有看到第二天的早上，就是他们对周围发生的事情表现出的那种孩子般的兴趣。第一次进入战壕的时候，我说的是那种对周围一切事物的兴致。我是说，有一个士兵写到，你知道吗，我在前沿战壕里，我和德国人之间什么也没有。
Now the, the temptation for these men to look over the top and have a quick peep at the trenches was enormous and a lot of them sadly got picked off by snipers. But that's the sort of, the, the, that sense of going to wonder, I'm abroad. I mean, many, many of these men, many of these, it, not just offices, not just other ranks, but offices too, had never been abroad.
现在，这些士兵十分想要跨越边界瞥一眼壕沟，但很多人不幸被狙击手击中。这种好奇心就像是你去一个陌生的地方，总是忍不住要探究一下周围的东西。这些士兵中有很多人，不仅是普通士兵，还包括军官，都从未离开过国境。
So the sense of this standing there I am on the continent of France, here I am to, you know, to save, to save Europe from this tyranny of the Germans. But, you know, also this kind of complete wonderment, the fact that they have finally got over there and there they are going towards the front line. Yes, they can hear the gunfire in the distance and I'm sure, you know, there's, they're butterflies in the stomach.
站在这里，我站在法国大陆上，我在这里，你知道，为了拯救欧洲免于德国的暴政。但是，你知道，我的心里充满了惊奇，他们终于到达那里了，他们正走向前线。是的，他们可以听到远处的枪声，我相信，他们的胃里一定有一些蝴蝶在飞舞。
But there is this childlike enthusiasm which does sadly diminish as time passes. I was going to say, do we follow some characters right through the war? We do. I mean, some characters all the way through to, and so sadly they're death. I mean, some of the books I used for this, for this, for Thomas War, are letters and dyrus put together by grieving parents. So they wrote these sort of memorial books.
但是有一种像孩子般的热情会随着时间的推移而减弱。我想说的是，我们是否跟随一些角色一直经历了整个战争？确实是这样的。我的意思是，一些角色一直到他们的死亡都被描写了出来。我的一些书中，例如研究托马斯战争的书，都是悲痛的父母写的信和记录。因此，他们写了这些纪念册。
So you can follow an individual, you can hear his, his own sort of authentic voice, being at the front, writing to his parents, talking about every day life. And you know, as you go through that this person is going to die in 1916. Others do go almost all the way through the war. I mean, it's fairly rare for someone to literally join up in 1914 and still be on the front line in 1918. But I have a couple of, a couple of examples of that.
你可以追踪一个人的生活，听到他自己的真实的声音，看到他站在战场前线，给父母写信，谈论日常生活。当你读到这些内容的时候，你知道这个人将在1916年死去。有些人则几乎经历了整个战争。也就是说，真正从1914年入伍的人还能继续在1918年前线。但是我有一些这样的例子。
Do we get a sense then of people's character changing as they face the horrors of war? Very much so, very much indeed. There's one man in particular and he sadly does die, a man called Lieutenant Southwell. And he's a very sort of literary man, a very intelligent man. He goes to France and again, you get this sort of sense of, you know, I'm doing my duty, I'm with my friends. This is a wonderful experience. And very soon he gets, he's in the battle of the psalm and you just see this just black depression come over him.
我们是否可以感受到战争恐怖面前人性格的变化？当然可以，确实如此。有一个特别的人，名叫南韦尔中尉，很遗憾他死了。他是一个非常有文化、非常聪明的人。他去了法国，你会感到他的责任感以及与朋友在一起的喜悦。但很快，他参加了“诗篇之战”，你就会看到他陷入了黑暗的抑郁情绪。
He loses his best friend or be it, this best friend is serving in another battalion. But he writes home to his mother saying, this is just beyond the pale, I can't take this anymore. You know, and yet at the same time he knows his duty, he knows he's got to continue, he's got to look after the men under his command. But you do get this sense of total depression leading up almost to the day before he's killed in action on the summer and September.
他失去了最好的朋友，或者是这位最好的朋友在另一个营服役。但他写信给他的母亲说，这已经超出了我的承受范围，我再也无法忍受了。然而，同时他也知道他的责任，他知道他必须继续，他必须照顾他所指挥的士兵。但你会感到一种完全的沮丧，在他在夏天和九月份牺牲的前一天特别明显。
Some of the photos in the book which I've seen an early version of are striking, incredible photos. Are there any photos for you that stand out? Yes, I mean, there are so many. And there's one I was just looking at before we started talking and it's a remarkable image, not for what it, in a sense what it shows. It's a picture of a sky and you would think, well, that's nothing much.
我看过一本书的早期版本，其中的一些照片非常惊人、不可思议。对于你来说，有没有什么照片特别突出的？是的，有很多。在我们开始交谈之前，我刚刚看了一张令人惊叹的照片，它并不是因为它所展现的内容在某种程度上有什么特别之处。照片中是一片天空，你可能会认为这没什么特别的。
But actually it's taken at 3.45 AM by a private with a camera. Now, cameras were banned by Christmas in 1914. So we're very fortunate that a lot of officers and men chose to ignore that ban and face court marches and keep their cameras with them. And this was a private in 1917. And he's taking a picture of the opening bombardment to the third battle of EEP. And the sky is literally lit up with gunfire. The whole night sky is just as almost daylight and yes, it's 3.45 AM. And it's such an extraordinary image to have taken. That in itself you look at and go, okay, well, that's a sort of night sky all lit up. But when you know what it is, it is absolutely incredible.
实际上，这张照片是1917年一个持相机的士兵在凌晨3点45分拍摄的。在1914年圣诞节后，相机被禁止使用。所以，我们非常幸运，许多军官和士兵选择无视这个禁令，冒着受到审判和行军惩罚的风险，带着相机。这是一名士兵在1917年拍摄的第三次依珀尔战役的开幕轰炸图像。天空被枪声点亮，整个夜空几乎像白昼一样，而此时是凌晨3点45分。这是一张非常非常特别的图片，看着这张图片，你会感到好奇，然而，如果你知道这是什么，你会觉得它非常非常不可思议。
And there are others that there's another one of some men just climbing onto a bus in 1914 and there's a old, omnibus taking them up to the front line. And what's so unusual is that the man who's taking the photograph is just climbed up the sort of outside stairs of this omnibus and he's standing on the top and he's taking a picture of the men in front of him climbing on the bus in front of him. And it's such an unusual, it's a beautifully constructed image and it's also taken on the hoof.
还有其他的一些照片，比如1914年有一组男人爬上公共汽车去前线，而旁边有一辆古老的公共汽车。最不寻常的是照片的拍摄者刚刚爬上这辆公共汽车的外侧楼梯，站在顶部拍摄前方男人们爬上公共汽车的照片。这是一张极为不寻常而构图精美的照片，并且还是在迅速移动的过程中拍摄的。
And that's split second, no one's posing for the photograph, no one's looking around and smiling. It's just, I'm just going to take my camera and click this picture. And so it's really, really unusual. And then one other picture of I may mention one other, it's a picture I came across, again, I bought it on a sort of online website and I looked at it and the man wanted a lot of money for this picture.
这是一瞬间的拍摄，没有人为照片摆好姿势，也没有人四处张望微笑。只是，我只是要拿起相机，点击这张照片。因此，这真的非常非常不寻常。再提到另一张照片，我偶然看到它，再次在一个在线网站上购买了它，我看着它，那个人想为这张照片要很多钱。
And at first I thought, no, no, that's too much. And then I looked at it again and I thought, you will never, ever see a photograph as extraordinary as that again. And in 30 years, I've never seen a picture like it. It's taken in the British front line trench on the 21st of March 1918 on the first day of the German march offensive. And this German has jumped into the British front line trench in the middle of the fighting.
一开始我想：不，不，这也太过分了吧。然后我再看了一眼，我想，你绝对再也看不到一张像这样非凡的照片了。在我这30年的时间里，我从来没有看过这样的照片。这张照片于1918年3月21日拍摄于英国前线壕沟，就是德国发起进攻的第一天。在战斗中，这个德国士兵跳进了英国前线壕沟。
It's a horrible picture in many ways, so two British soldiers dead, literally, of just being killed. And he's had the sort of calmness, the presence of mine to take out his camera, put his rifle up on the sort of side and take a photograph of this melee, of this moment in this, in, in, and you can see you can see the smoke, you can see that the carnage is going on at that split second. And yet he's taking his camera out to take a photograph. And that is so rare, that is so extraordinary. That book, I mean, I've given it a double page spread in the book. It is, you will not see another image like it.
这是一张令人震惊的照片，两名英国士兵被杀害了，真是令人痛心。然而，摄影师保持冷静，专注地拿出相机，在一旁放下步枪，拍下了这个混乱场面的照片，记录了这一短暂的瞬间，烟雾弥漫，战争惨酷的现场在照片中展现。这样的行为非常罕见，非常不寻常。这本书中，我将它用了两页，因为你不会再看到另一个像它这样的照片。
Talking about the ways in which the soldiers dealt with the things that they witnessed and experienced. How important was humour in this? humour is critical to the mental survivor, survival of men on the Western front. There's no two ways about it. It might be the blackest humour imaginable. I always remember reading a story of a man who, after the Battle of Luce, said that his men were putting heads to, back to, rolling them like a sort of a temp in bowling, back to their heads of decapitated men.
在讨论士兵如何处理所目睹和经历的事情时，幽默在其中起到的作用有多重要呢？幽默对于西线战争上士兵的心理幸存至关重要，毫无疑问。它可能是最黑暗的幽默，但它是必不可少的。我始终记得有个故事，讲的是在卢斯战役后，一个士兵说他的部下在将人的头从脖子处取下来后，像打保龄球一样，将它们滚回去，重新接回去。
And it was, he just said it was the darkest, darkest humour imaginable. But it was the only way of coping. And this was incredibly important. You're under extraordinary strain on a daily basis. It doesn't matter if you're under shell fire, if you're being machined, if you're even going over the top, but just daily life. When you're in the front line, you know your life is on the line, every moment imaginable.
他曾说过这是最黑暗、最黑暗的幽默，但这是他唯一的应对方式。这一点非常重要。你每天承受着非凡的压力。无论你是在炮火轰鸣中、被机枪扫射、甚至是在爬过战壕，都无所谓，因为生活中的每一天都是如此。当你在前线时，你知道你的生命千钧一发，任何瞬间都可能成为你的最后时刻。
The germs can open, shelling, they can drop a couple of mortars straight into your trench and you can be dead at any time. So the strain was unimaginable and therefore humour was critical. And there's a lot of humour in the book. I just felt, well, I don't want to make this book the dark, miserable, read. I want people to think that yes, actually men did have fun. They did enjoy themselves.
细菌可以打开，破裂，它们可以直接向你的壕沟掉下几个迫击炮，你随时可能会死亡。因此，压力是难以想象的，因此幽默感至关重要。这本书里有很多幽默感。我只是觉得，嗯，我不想让这本书变成一个阴暗、悲惨的读物。我希望人们能够想到，是的，实际上男人们确实有乐趣。他们享受自己的生活。
There's a wonderful, wonderful court martial in the book. Not a court martial, it's not nobody facing the death penalty or anything like that. It's an individual who's been court basically shooting farmers' chickens. And the writer wrote it within days of this court martial and it is one of the funniest things I've ever read.
这本书中有一个非常精彩的军事法庭。这不是一次死刑审判或任何类似的情况，只是一个人因为打死了农民的鸡而接受了审判。作者在几天内撰写了这篇文章，非常有趣，是我读过的最有趣的文章之一。
I wrote it to a great friend of mine and I tears rolling down my face and I promised you that was true. And basically this private is coming up with the most fatuous excuses for how he managed to shoot these chickens, all of which he's basically saying, you know, he was mucking around with his gun and playing with a bullet in the breach and the bullet and the rifle went off and happened to shoot six chickens at all standing in a row.
我写信给一位非常好的朋友，当时我眼泪滚落下来，我保证这是真实的。基本上，这个人在编造最愚蠢的借口，解释他是如何射杀这些鸡的。他的借口都是说，他拿着枪玩耍，调弄着弹药仓，结果子弹和枪不小心脱手，刚好打中一排站立在一起的六只鸡。
You know, and he put them in the instant, he chewed it pocket to go and tell the farmer that he'd accidentally done this and he was going to compensate him. I mean, it was just so ridiculous. And even the judge says, look, do you want to go and think about your story before we pass any judgment on this? And it is hysterical because you have witnesses bought in utterly inarticulate witnesses who don't know how to give evidence and they start going off on one and the judges are trying to tell him to be quiet. It is just, it's something which only a person who was there who could write about it at the time could recreate a court martial like that. It's just, it's wonderful.
你们知道，他把东西放在口袋里就走了，他咀嚼着东西去告诉农民他不小心做了这件事，他会赔偿他。我的意思是，这太荒谬了。甚至法官都说，看，我们在对此做出任何评判之前，你想不想好你的故事？这是非常滑稽的，因为你有完全不善于陈述证词的证人，他们开始变得不安，法官们试图让他们保持沉默。这是最好由当时在场的人写下来才能重现一场像这样的军事法庭。这太棒了。
Do we get any sense of how they viewed the wider war and if they had any criticisms of it? Soldiers didn't tend to view the wider war. We like to think that they should have done. But no, I mean, they were in a trench, their vision of view was in a matter of 20 yards, 50 yards on either side if they were behind the lines, well, okay, they were in a nice billet somewhere and what they were concerned about was resting and recuperating and getting themselves mentally prepared to go back up the line again.
他们如何看待整场战争，以及是否对此提出了任何批评？士兵们往往不会关注整个战争。我们认为他们应该这么做，但事实上，他们在战壕里，视野范围仅限于20码左右，如果在后方，视野只有左右50码，那么他们会呆在一个不错的营房里，他们关心的是休息、恢复和为再次上线做好心理准备。
Very few soldiers at the time, in fact, I'm say this and I don't think there's one individual that I read from these contemporary sources who ever mentioned people like Hague, you know, General of Field Marshal Hague. There was no criticism of the senior command. There is criticism of local attacks of individual, of situations where clearly the men shouldn't have gone into action at this particular point and they suffered very heavily and there is criticism there. But it's very localized criticism. You know, it's only what these men can see at that particular moment. It's not saying, well, I'm going to extrapolate from that and criticise the high command that just isn't the nature of soldiers in the Great War.
当时的士兵非常少，实际上，我要说，在这些当代资源中，我没有看到任何一个人提到像海格将军这样的人。对于高级指挥官没有批评，只有对个别的当地攻击，以及在此特定时刻士兵明显不应该参与行动而承受巨大损失的情况进行了批评。但这只是很局部的批评。你知道，这仅仅是这些士兵当时所能看到的情况。他们并没有说：“我要从这里推断出批评高级指挥官”，这并不是一战时期士兵的性格。
If you could travel back to the period and ask a question of some or just one of the people involved in these stories, what's the thing would you ask them? How do you cope? How do you cope with what you put up with? That's why I studied the Great War. That's why I've been fascinated for 30 years because I always joke with friends. I would have been the first person executed for cowardice because I don't believe I could have put up with it. Maybe I could have done.
如果你能回到那个时代，问一个或多个参与这些故事的人一个问题，你会问什么？你是如何应对的？你是如何应对你所经历的事情的？这就是为什么我研究了一战的原因。这就是为什么我30年来一直着迷，因为我总是和朋友开玩笑。我可能会因为懦弱而被处决的第一个人，因为我不相信我能承受得住。也许我可以做到。
Maybe I'd have been a good soldier. I just don't know. And I found heavens that I will never be tested because these men were tested to the nth degree and it fascinates me. It fascinates me that, yes, OK, they really had no choice. Had they run away from the trench that had a face of fire and squad, they had to put up with it. So my question would be, how do you cope?
也许我本可以成为一名优秀的士兵，但我并不确定。我庆幸自己从未经历过这些士兵们所遭受的考验，这让我非常着迷。我被这些人所经历的种种考验所吸引。他们真的没有选择的余地，如果逃离火力和小队密布的战壕，他们只能忍受各种艰苦。我的问题是，你们如何应对这一切？
Why do you think it's so important to approach the war from the viewpoint that you've done? Do you've taken? I just think this is something that's not been looked at before. I mean, there are books out there which are sort of companions of soldiers' writings from the 1920s, 50s, 70s. But actually, let's go back. Let's go all the way back. Let's go back to the war and say, what is it? What were these soldiers talking about in 1914, 15, 16, 17?
你为什么觉得以你采用的观点来研究战争是如此重要呢？你采取了什么观点？我认为这是之前没有过的研究。我的意思是，虽然已经有一些离士兵写作比较近代的书籍，例如20年代，50年代，70年代的士兵，但是我们实际上需要回溯到更早的时期，全面探究战争。我们需要回到战争中去，探究这些士兵在1914年到1917年期间谈论的是什么。
What mattered to them? Not with any sort of revisionism. Not with any sort of, you know, I mean, bought up believing that perhaps, you know, having read in the 60s about butchers and bungalows and incompetent generals. Now, let's go back to what they thought at the time. And let's illustrate it with their own photographs. So really, you take me out of the narrative.
他们关心什么？不是通过修正主义来了解。也不是被灌输了在60年代读到的有关屠夫、平房和无能将领的东西。现在，让我们回到他们当时的想法。让我们用他们自己的照片来说明。所以，实际上，你让我退出了叙述。
You know, obviously, I do have to link these stories together. You take me out. We are really hearing and seeing from the soldiers themselves. And I do not believe I'm certain that that has never been done before. So what do you impression do you hope that we just leave this book with? Of the war? I take, I hope, I just take the impression of, you know, of, you know, what we owe to that generation, you know, I hope they go away thinking, yeah, that was my grandad. That was my great-grandfather. He might not be named in this particular book, but in essence, this is what my grandfather did.
你知道，显然，我必须把这些故事联系起来。你带我出去了。我们真正听到和看到了士兵们自己的声音。我相信这从未发生过。那么，你希望我们在看完这本书后留下什么印象呢？对于这场战争？我希望，你知道的，我们应该感激这一代人，我希望读者会离开时想着，“是的，那是我的爷爷。那是我的曾祖父。他可能没有在这本特定的书中被提及，但本质上，这就是我的祖父所做的事情。”
Now, I begin to understand perhaps a little bit more of the way he was. Maybe I can, I can see why he was irassable when he was in his old age. Maybe I can see why he never talked about the war. Maybe I can see exactly why he talked about the war.
现在，我开始明白他的想法了，也许能够理解他老年时为什么会脾气暴躁。也许我可以明白他从未谈及战争的原因，也可能明白他为什么要谈论战争。
I just would like people to go to read the book and then think, yeah, okay, I understand a little bit more about my family about where my family has come from because let's face it, the vast majority of British people had relatives who were in the Great War. And it doesn't really matter what, almost what ethnic background you are too. There were tens of thousands of Indians on the Western front. There were men for the West Indies all over and all over China. So I really think it's a book that everybody in Britain can take something from.
我只是希望人们阅读这本书，然后去思考一下，并且认识到更多有关自己家族来源的事情，因为毕竟，绝大多数英国人都有曾在一战中服役的亲戚。几乎无论你的族裔背景是什么，这都不重要。在西线战场上有成千上万的印度士兵。来自西印度群岛和中国的男人也都成队出征。因此，我真的认为这是一本每个英国人都能从中获得收益的书。
That was Richard Van Enden. Tommy's War, The Western Front, in soldier's words and photographs, is out now published by Bloomsbury in the UK and the US.
这是Richard Van Enden。汤米的战争，《士兵的话语和照片中的西线战场》已经由布卢姆斯伯里在英国和美国出版发行。
Well, that is almost all for this week's episode. You get in touch with your views on podcast at historyextra.com and we will try to read out some of your messages in the future.
这本周的节目就差不多到这里了。如果你有对我们的播客节目的看法，请通过historyextra.com与我们联系，我们将尝试在未来读出您的一些信息。
One listener who got in contact recently was Michael Ranser over in California. Michael says, I'm just writing to say how much I enjoyed your interview with Adam Tews on the consequences of the First World War. I think it was one of the most informative interviews I have heard in five years of listening to your podcasts.
最近联系我们的一位听众是来自加利福尼亚的迈克尔·兰瑟。迈克尔说，我写信来表达我有多喜欢你们和亚当·图斯关于第一次世界大战后果的采访。我认为这是我听你们播客五年以来最有见地的采访之一。
The interview tied together so many loose ends on the aftermath of that war, with a focus on the later actions by the Western Allies and insight into the intentions of the National leaders, Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemsso. It's clear that the forces of World War I were still being felt well after World War II and I would add certainly up through the fall of communism in 1989 and even today in some places. Keep up the good work.
这次采访将那场战争后的许多松散的线索联系在一起，重点关注西方盟友的后期行动和对国家领导人威尔逊、劳合·乔治和克莱门梭意图的洞察。很明显，一战的力量仍然在二战后感受到，并且我要添加的是——甚至到1989年的共产主义垮台，甚至在今天的某些地方。继续保持好工作。
Thank you for that Michael and if you missed the interview with Adam Tews, you can still download it from all the usual places. It was in the episode First Broadcast on the 12th of June this year.
感谢迈克尔的分享。如果您错过了对亚当·蒂尔斯的采访，您仍可以从所有常规的地方下载。它是在今年6月12日的第一次广播节目中播出的。
And don't forget you can also keep in touch with us on social media, on Twitter we're at historyextra and on Facebook we are also history extra. And do make sure to check out our website historyextra.com for all the latest history news, quizzes, galleries, articles and hundreds of episodes of this podcast that go back to 2007.
请不要忘记，您也可以通过社交媒体与我们保持联系。我们在Twitter上的账号是@historyextra，在Facebook上我们也是history extra。同时，请务必访问我们的网站historyextra.com，获取最新的历史新闻、问答、图库、文章和数百集自2007年以来的这个播客节目。
Next week we will be joined by Hugh Thomas to discuss the Spanish Empire while Michael Scott will be exploring the history of Delphi. Make sure to tune in for that.
下周，我们将邀请Hugh Thomas一起探讨西班牙帝国的历史，同时Michael Scott也将探索德尔斐的历史。请务必收听我们的节目。
This history extra podcast was recorded on location in London and in Bristol and produced by Jack Fletcher.
这个历史额外播客在伦敦和布里斯托尔现场录制，并由杰克·弗莱彻制作。