World history in 100 moments
发布时间 2021-09-18 19:00:00 来源
摘要
Archaeologist and television presenter Neil Oliver discusses his new book, The Story of the World in 100 Moments, which explores the whole of human history through just 100 milestone events.
(Ad) Neil Oliver is the author of The Story of the World in 100 Moments (Bantam Press, 2021). Buy it now from Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Story-World-100-Moments-bestselling/dp/1787633101/?tag=bbchistory045-21&ascsubtag=historyextra-social-hexpod
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中英文字稿 
Hello and welcome to the History Extra Podcast from BBC History magazine, but in its best-selling history magazine. I'm Ellie Corthon. During today's episode, you'll be hearing from the archaeologist and television presenter Neil Oliver. On his new book, The Story of the World in a Hundred Moments. It's a whistle-stop tour through some of history's key events, from the world's first poet to the death of one of Britain's last First World War veterans. BBC History revealed Staff writer Emma Slatterly Williams spoke to Neil to find out more.
大家好，欢迎收听BBC History杂志的历史额外播客。我是艾丽·科思恩。在今天的节目中，你会听到考古学家和电视节目主持人尼尔·奥利弗的讲述，他将为我们推荐他的新书《世界故事百时刻》。这本书为我们快速介绍了一些关键历史事件，从世界上第一位诗人到英国最后一位一战老兵的逝世。BBC History的专职撰稿人艾玛·斯拉特利·威廉姆斯采访了尼尔，以了解更多信息。
On your new book, The Story of the World in a Hundred Moments, as the name suggests, takes us through human history through key events. What made you take on this mammoth task of exploring the history in just one hundred moments? I asked, that is the question. It was, I knew it was going to be big. A big job. Once I started on it, I really, I almost panicked and threw up my hands and abandoned the whole thing because it just became, well for me, it was quite monumental.
您的新书《世界的百个时刻的故事》正如其名，带我们穿越人类历史的关键事件。您为什么接受这个巨大的挑战，只用一百个时刻来探索历史？我问道，这是个很好的问题。我知道这会很大，是个艰巨的任务。一旦开始了，我几乎有些惊慌失措，想放弃整个计划，因为对我来说，这是非常庞大的事情。
It came from the idea was, I had always, or for the longest time, I had thought it would be great fun to be able to stand up on a stage as it were and tell the story of the world in an hour, I thought. I thought it would be great to be able to summarize human history down to something manageable that, for an hour or so, the people listening might, however briefly, feel that they could hold the whole story in their heads. Even if it would eventually get away from them again. It had been a dream or a pipe dream for the longest period of time.
这个想法的来源是这样的，我一直认为在一个舞台上讲述世界历史故事并将其浓缩到一个小时内是一件非常有趣的事情。我想，能够把人类历史概括成易于管理的东西是非常棒的事情，让听众在一个小时内甚至可以短暂地认为他们可以完全理解整个历史。即使之后他们也可能失去这一感觉。这一想法已经成为了我长期的梦想或者说幻想。
But then finally, I had written previously the story of the British Isles in a hundred places and I thought this would be the ideal time to try and bring my big dream to life and to make it real because apart from anything else, it felt a little bit like a grand or sequel to the book that was based around Britain. I thought, well this would be the time now to do the world. So I decided that I would make it five thousand years. I decided to start it with the advent of writing because the written word is clearly a significant moment in terms of history because now that once we were able to write things down and keep documents and letters and books and all the rest of it. So I started it with the advent of writing which is let's say about five thousand years ago.
但最终，我事先已经写了一个有关英国群岛在数百个地点的故事，我想这将是尝试实现我的大梦想并使其成为现实的理想时机，因为除此之外，它感觉有点像是基于英国的书籍的宏大续篇。我想，现在就是为全球展开的时候了。因此，我决定让它跨越五千年。我决定从书写的出现开始，因为在历史上来说，书面文字显然是一个重要的时刻，因为一旦我们能够把事情写下来并保存文件、信件、书籍等等，这变得非常重要。因此，我从书写的出现开始，这大约是五千年前的事情。
And then I set about the, as it turned out, the mammoth task of deciding which hundred moments to tell. And what I've ended up with, I hope, is a selection that where some of them will be instantly familiar to people. They will have heard of the moment or they will have heard of the principal character involved. Of course, hopefully less so because as with all of my books are quite personal, you might even say idiosyncratic. And I also wanted this to be my story of the world. It's not an academic textbook at all. That's not, I'm not in the business of writing heavy academic tomes. It's supposed to be something that would hopefully draw people in. People interested readers who maybe when they go into the history section in a bookshop, look at the whole dizzying array of titles and don't know where to start.
然后我开始了一个巨大的任务，决定选出哪些一百个时刻来讲述。我最终选出的希望是一个挑选，其中一些时刻对人们来说是熟悉的。他们可能听过这个时刻，或者听说过其中涉及的主角。当然，希望不那么多，因为我的所有书籍都很个人化，你甚至可以说是特殊的。我也希望这是我的世界故事。这不是一本学术教材。我不从事写沉重的学术专著的业务。这应该是一件可以吸引人们的东西。对于那些对历史部分感兴趣的读者，当他们看到书店里令人眼花缭乱的标题时，可能不知道该从哪里开始。
And perhaps my book might give people a doorway, a springboard into the all-encompassing topic of world history. And maybe when they read my moments, it might make them think, no, you need this moment as well. Or my hundred moments would be these. So I think that's where the idea came from. I wanted to inspire people to think, to come up with what they think is the story of the world and ideally start conversation and debate.
也许我的书能给人们打开通往全方位世界历史的大门，成为他们开始探索的跳板。当人们读到我的片段时，也许会让他们想到，不，你还需要这个片段。或者我的一百个片段就是这些。所以我想这个想法就是从这里而来，我想鼓励人们去思考，去构建他们认为的世界故事，并且希望能引发交流与辩论。
So how did you pick the moments? Well, a lot of them I knew. When I sat down, the first thing I did was sit down and make a list. And I was able to come up with, I would, I'm estimating here, but I would say about 60, 60 to 70 off the top of my head. I thought it has to involve these. Even where it was things that I only had the, even where I thought I only had the barest idea, I thought it must include these. But the process of doing that then led me on little journeys of discovery of my own. And I was moments that I had thought about, fell into the background and I decided they didn't help tell the wider story. And other stories as it were, Elwood, the way to the front that I hadn't even realised were there. And they became part of the story as well.
那么，你是如何挑选这些时刻的呢？嗯，其中很多我是知道的。当我坐下来的时候，我首先做的事情就是列出一个清单。我能够列出大约60到70个左右，我在估算，但是这些都是我首先想到的。即使有些只是我有草草想法的时刻，我仍然觉得它们必须被包括在内。但是在这个过程中，我也开始了自己的发现之旅。我曾经想过的时刻已经变得不那么重要了，我决定它们不能帮助我更好地讲述整个故事。其他故事，比如艾尔伍德（Elwood），也成为了故事的一部分，而那些之前我根本没有意识到。
I wanted it to be a mix. I thought I don't want it to be, you know, to be discouraging and that, you know, someone won't have heard of any of these moments. I wanted it to be a mix of the familiar and down familiar and hopefully that's where we are. But my aspirations are just that somebody might pick up the book. And by reading a few lines about a few pages of it, it might be, it might be a spring board, you know, to have them go off and have their own adventure in history.
我希望这本书既包含熟悉的历史事件，又有些陌生的，但不会让读者感到沮丧，也不会让某些读者对此毫无所知。我希望这本书能够让人们对历史有更深入的了解，所以我选择了一种混合的写作方式。然而，我对这本书的期望只是希望有人能够拿起它来读几页，通过读这些内容，启发他们对历史的兴趣，让他们去开展自己的历史冒险之旅。
We mindful to try and ensure that you've covered as many different periods and countries as possible. Oh, absolutely. Being a story of the world, I was careful.
我们要用心尽量确保你涵盖了尽可能多的不同时期和国家。哦，绝对的。作为世界故事，我很谨慎。
So we start in the old world of the, of the, well, the Middle East, the Near East, Mesopotamia, you know, the ancient civilizations are Babylon, Egypt. And then, you know, gradually spreads it into the, into the classical world, I suppose, the classical world around the Mediterranean. And then the fullness of time it takes in, but quite late in the day, really, you know, we get to Western Europe and Britain.
我们从旧世界开始讲起，也就是中东、近东和美索不达米亚，这里有着古代文明如巴比伦、埃及等。然后，逐渐地传播到了地中海周围的古典世界。但是，说到西欧和不列颠，这是相对较晚的事情了。
But the book is also about the Americas, North and South, Australia, Africa, Asia, you know, the far east, Russia, China, hopefully, hopefully it's all there. Hopefully it does have the scope. And as I say, it runs chronologically from, you know, from 5,000 years ago and comes up to the, you know, well, getting very close to the present day.
这本书也是关于美洲、北美和南美、澳大利亚、非洲、亚洲，以及远东、俄罗斯、中国，希望希望这些都在书中涵盖。也希望这本书具有全面的视野。就像我所说的，它按时间顺序排列，从5000年前开始，一直到现代。
So you, you begin with the story of the Sumerian poet whose name I'm probably going to pronounce wrong and had Duanna. I think that's close enough. Oh, that's great. So hers is a story that myself and our listeners, perhaps, are not too familiar with. Could you tell us a bit about her and why her significance puts her at the start of your book?
你开始讲述苏美尔诗人的故事，她的名字我可能会发错音，而且她的名字是Duanna。我认为这已经足够接近了。这是很棒的。她的故事对我和我们的听众可能不太熟悉。你能告诉我们一些关于她的事情，为什么她的重要性把她放在你的书的开头？
Well, she's, she's, she's regarded as the first named poet, excavations in her part of the world, you know, at her. She was a high priestess of a temple, which was physically quite close to the palace. So Churchill State were quite close together. In Hedjuana was a priestess. They are dedicated to worship of the goddess and the gods and the goddesses that were the pantheon of those people. And she wrote poetry and she wrote poetry in praise of and in awe of the gods and the goddesses.
她被视为第一个被命名的诗人，在她的祖国进行的挖掘中得以发现。她是一座寺庙的高级祭司，该寺庙与宫殿非常接近。所以，丘吉尔国家是相当接近的。在赫德胡纳，她是一名女祭司，她致力于崇拜那些人的神和女神。她写了诗歌，称赞和敬畏那些神和女神。
And she's given the time, given the distance in time. It's hard to know who she was. She may have been the daughter of Sargon, the great who was a king. She was certainly to be placed in that position. She must have had some kind of significance. Maybe she was high born. There's some debate even about whether she actually composed the hymns of praise to which she put her name.
她有足够的时间和时间距离去探究她的身份，但这很难知道她是谁。她可能是萨尔贡大帝的女儿，他是一位国王。她肯定是被安置在那个位置上的。她一定有某种重要性。也许她出生于高贵之家。甚至有一些争议，关于她是否真的创作了她署名的赞颂圣歌。
She's the first person. She's the first poet that puts herself into the narrative. She writes in the first person within the hymns about what she is going to do, how much the goddess means to her and how much she wants the goddess to change and own her. So she actually puts herself into the stories for the first time. And she signs them off. They are signed by in Hedjuana.
她是第一个那样做的人。她是第一个把自己置身于叙事中的诗人。在她的赞美诗中，她用第一人称表达自己将要做什么，女神对她的重要性，以及她多么想让女神改变自己并拥有自己。所以她实际上是第一次把自己放在故事中。而且她在末尾签署了自己的名字，这些作品都是由Hedjuana签署的。
The only copies that we have are much, much later copies. She had her own scribe. She had so she would have been the images of her dictating and someone else writing it down in Cuneiform. And the only copies that we have are much later than in Hedjuana's time. So what we have are our survival. Long after her day and age, her work was still being remembered and copied and passed on. And it survived in the form of clay tablets and they've been translated and they've been handed down to us.
我们现在所拥有的唯一副本都是后来的副本。她有自己的抄写员，他把她口述的东西用楔形文字写下来，现在我们所拥有的唯一副本都比赫迪胡那时代要晚得多。所以我们所拥有的是它的存留。在她的时代之后，她的作品仍然被记住、复制和传承下来。它们以粘土板的形式存活了下来，并已经被翻译并传承给我们。
The epic of Gilgamesh, people might have heard of the epic of Gilgamesh. And Gilgamesh is like the first named real person from history. But Gilgamesh didn't write the epic of Gilgamesh. We wrote another people in Hedjuana is the first person. As far as we know, it's a reasonable statement to say that she's the first named poet that we have. It seemed to me that given that history as stories, it seemed right and proper to start with the first named person we know that was composing and telling stories. Yeah, definitely.
《吉尔伽美什史诗》可能有人听说过。吉尔伽美什就像历史上第一个有名字的真实人物。但吉尔伽美什并没有写《吉尔伽美什史诗》。我们知道，这首史诗的第一位作者是在赫多纳的另一个人。据我们所知，她是我们认识的第一个有名字的诗人。对我而言，考虑到历史是由故事构成的，从我们知道的第一个具有创作故事和讲述故事的有名字的人开始是正确合适的。没错，绝对没错。
So I want to pick up on the story of Martin Luther actually in the Protestant Reformation a defining moment in the 16th century. You suggest that Luther would have been one of the last people to suspect that he would be credited with the Reformation and that there was never his intention. Could you explain a bit more about this because I think we tend to see him as an avid opponent of the Catholic Church.
我想讲一下马丁·路德的故事，实际上他是16世纪新教改革的一个关键人物。你认为路德会是最后一个想到自己会被认为是改革者，而他也从未这样想过。你能再解释一下吗？因为我们通常认为他是天主教教会的激烈反对者。
He was a very devout figure. You know, he was a very devout Catholic. He was a theologian. He was well read. You know, so he was an educated man. And he was particularly inspired, I suppose, by the idea that his church that he loved so much was falling from what he regarded as the path of righteousness, basically. And he made it playing from the beginning that everything he was saying he was getting from the Bible, you know, that he wasn't making any of it up. It wasn't his own ideas. He was just reminding his church of their own foundations.
他是一个非常虔诚的人物。你知道，他是一个虔诚的天主教徒。他是一位神学家。他博学多才。你知道，他是一个受过教育的人。他特别受到启发，我想，是因为他热爱的教会正在远离他所认为的正确之路。他从一开始就明确表示他所说的一切都来源于圣经，他没有凭空捏造任何东西。这不是他自己的想法。他只是在提醒他的教会回到他们自己的根基。
At the time of the writing, the 95 Theses, there was another church when moving through his part of Germany who was selling indulgences, which is to say that there was a fundraising effort going on to raise funds for the building of St. Peter's in Rome or a new church in Rome. And the church had been selling indulgences. And it's basically a jail free card in indulgence. It reduces the amount of time that a sinner would have to spend in in parchedry before, you know, before getting out and getting off to paradise.
当马丁·路德写下《九十五条论纲》时，德国的另一家教会正在销售赎罪券，也就是为了为罗马的圣彼得大教堂或者新教堂筹集资金。教会一直在销售赎罪券，这可以看作是一种可避免惩罚的免罪牌。这减少了罪人在地狱中度过时间的数量，为他们进入天堂和享受永生之前提供了机会。
And so indulgences, it's a way of buying your freedom. And Martin Luther was just horrified. He said, this is not what Jesus came to do. Jesus came to remind us to tell us that it's, you know, lives of faith, you know, living virtuous lives at all times, being good people or trying to be good people. It is what we ought to do. And it's not enough just to go through the motions.
因此，赎罪状是一种购买个人自由的方式。但是马丁路德非常震惊。他说，这不是耶稣来到这世上所要做的。耶稣来到这世上是想提醒我们，告诉我们，通过信仰的生活，时时刻刻过着高尚的生活，做个好人，尽力做个好人。单纯地过惯了形式是远远不够的。
You can't just go to church, listen to the priest, make your confession, get absolution, and then expect to get to heaven. If you're a sinner, you shouldn't be trying to buy your way out of your sins. It's by properly repenting your sins that you make the progress. And this is all in the Bible. It's all there. So it was very much, it started out as this response to the selling of indulgences.
你不能只是去教堂，听牧师讲道、忏悔、得到大赦，然后期望能进入天堂。如果你是罪人，你不应该试图用金钱来赎赎你的罪孽。通过正确地懺悔你的罪孽，你才能得到进步。这都写在圣经里。所有的一切都在那里了。所以这起初是对出售赎罪券的回应。
But then he seemed to, his time, he hand wrote the 95thesis, Pindamta Church door, but his time overlap with the coming of printing and where his words might have had a limited circulation. I mean, he sent, he himself sent a copy of what he was saying to the Pope. He did that himself. But his theseses were taken down and set in print and went viral, you might say, because the printing press was available, his ideas were suddenly being circulated to many more people than would have previously have been possible, and he got for himself an audience.
但是他似乎，他当时亲手写下了95条论纲，挂在宾达门教堂门口，但他的时间和印刷的到来存在重叠，他的话语可能只有有限的传播。我的意思是，他将自己所说的内容复制给教皇发送了一份。是他自己那样做的。但他的论纲被记录并印刷出来，迅速传播开来，你可以说，因为印刷机的出现，他的思想突然被传播到了比以前更多的人群中，并且他自己得到了观众。
And to some extent, he, and he was a good writer and he may or it seems apparent that he began to enjoy the fact that he had an audience quite understandably, and he wrote more and more, and he developed his ideas and he became more and more controversial. But and ultimately what he did, he was the midwife of the Reformation.
他在某种程度上成为了宗教改革的助产士，他是一位优秀的作者，很明显他开始喜欢拥有听众的事实，并且他越写越多，不断发展他的思想，变得越来越有争议。最终，他成为了宗教改革的术士。
He, his thinking, his, his reminder to the church inadvertently, he gave birth to the Reformation, so which split his beloved church, you know, gave rise to Protestantism, you know, and the, and everything, everything, all the centuries of strife have come ever after, were triggered by, you know, in the first place by Martin Luther. But it was never, it wasn't his original intention.
马丁·路德本意并非要导致宗派分裂、产生新教，但由于他的思想、提醒以及行动，无意中引发了改革运动，这导致他所挚爱的教会分崩离析，同时也催生了新教。从此以后，所有的冲突都是由于路德的行动而引发的。然而，这并非是他本意。
He was just trying to remind his church that he loved so well that had fallen from the true path. He was suggesting how to get back onto the true path, and then by the law of unintended consequences, he gave rise to the, to the Reformation and, you know, people like John Calvin were, were inspired to take on his message into, and they were, you know, the further, you know, further splitting and fragmentation of the, of the mother church.
他只是想提醒他深爱的教堂，他们已经偏离了真正的道路。他建议如何重新踏上正道，然后不经意间引发了宗教改革。像约翰·加尔文这样的人受到启发，接受了他的讯息，导致了母教堂的进一步分裂和瓦解。
But it wasn't his intention, he didn't, he didn't set out to, to break the church into. So that's a bit of a parallel with Henry VIII then, really, isn't it? Because for all intents and purposes, he remained Catholic and, until his death, but he, he wanted, you know, he wanted his divorce, and he didn't want the Pope in charge.
但他并不是有意要分裂教会，他没有这个打算。所以这有点像亨利八世的情况，是吧？因为从各方面来看，他一直是天主教徒，直到去世。但是他想要离婚，不想让教皇掌控一切。
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But I believe that he, he still thought of himself as a Catholic until his death. Yes. And Henry VIII believed until he's, you know, believed until he's dying day that his church of England was the Catholic church in all but name.
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但我相信，直到他去世，他仍认为自己是一个天主教徒。是的。亨利八世直到他去世，都认为英格兰教会除了名字不一样，其实仍然是天主教会。
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Well, I will, you know, the story of Henry, it's so well rehearsed, you know, he was desperate to get access to someone, a woman who could give him a son. And when it became apparent to him that that that wasn't going to be Catherine of Aryan his first wife that he had inherited from his dead big brother, you know, they had, you know, they had Mary. There were other children who didn't survive infancy. And he felt this, probably, the need to move on and get access to somebody else that would give him a, that would give him a child. He believed or it became, it became convenient to him to believe that his, that by marrying his brother's wife, he had committed a sin that that marriage was in and of itself unclean.
好的，我来讲讲亨利的故事。如大家所知，他一直渴望拥有一个儿子，但在他明白凯瑟琳·阿拉贡无法满足他这个要求后，他开始思考寻找其他女人。凯瑟琳是他从已故的大哥那里继承来的第一任妻子，他们有玛丽这个女儿，还有其他在婴儿阶段未能幸存的孩子。亨利觉得需要继续寻找其他妻子，以期望能有一个儿子。他认为第一次结婚是因为娶了兄弟的妻子而犯了罪，这使得他认为婚姻本身就不洁净。
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And he felt that himself justified or he certainly felt that he had the legal grounds for saying this marriage hasn't been right and being punished. I'm not being given a son because this marriage has been unclean. You know, it's like a signal. This is a signish. I need to move on and marry someone else hence the marriage to Anne Boleyn and everything else that happened to him and the subsequent, and the subsequent wives. But again, he, he wasn't trying, he wasn't, it wasn't his original motivation to create a new church. He wasn't trying to, you know, it wasn't to break with the, with the Catholic church, with the intention of starting a new religion. That was just the, the, the practicalities of creating a situation in which he felt justified in, in moving on with his life and, and marrying other people.
他觉得自己是有理由的，或者说他确信自己有法律依据来说，这段婚姻不对，并因此受到惩罚。他没有得到儿子，因为这次婚姻是不洁的。你知道，这就像一个信号。这是一个标志。我需要继续前进，娶另一个女人，因此才有了与安·波琳结婚及其它事情的发生，以及随后的其他妻子。但他并不是试图建立一个新教会的原始动机。他并不是试图与天主教会断绝联系，以建立一个新的宗教信仰。那只是创造一个情况的实际性质，使他感到有理由继续他的生活并嫁给其他人。
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So one event that you discuss in the book is one that we don't have a date for the time when probably in the early 19th century, the human population reached one billion. Why was this important for you to include? I think it was, well, it was, it was a, it was a, it was a moment of such significance.
在书中，你谈到的一个事件是在19世纪早期（日期不确定）人类达到了10亿人口。为什么你要把这个事件包括进去呢？我认为这是一个非常重要的时刻。
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We are now nearly eight billion people, but it had taken it, it, it, it, and we seem to be adding an extra billion people now every 15 or 20 years, but it took, our species is 200,000 years old. It took until about 1800 until there were a billion of us alive at the same time. So that's a, that's a significant moment. And from, and from that, then it took a considerable time to double it. But then the gap between the, you know, the additions of each additional billion has been getting smaller. You know, we're reproducing and making more people faster and faster.
现在我们已经快要有80亿人口了，但这个数字不是一夜之间增长起来的，我们似乎每15或20年就会增加10亿人口，但我们的物种已经存在了20万年。直到1800年，才有10亿人同时存在，这是一个重要的时刻。从那时起，翻倍的时间非常长。但之后，每增加10亿人口的时间间隔越来越短。我们不断繁殖，越来越快地制造更多的人。
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But that, all of that time when our population on the planet was numbered only in the, only in the millions, you know, it seemed to me significant to mark the point, even though we cannot know the best estimates suggest at some point around 1800, somebody was born somewhere that clicked the odometer, you know, over to one billion for the first time. And it just, it does, it does seem like a moment of great, of great significance.
在人类的总人口只有数百万的时代，我认为标志着这一时刻是很重要的，虽然我们不能确定最佳估计值表明在1800年左右的某个时刻，某个地方出生的某个人使得世界人口数量第一次突破了10亿。这似乎是一个重要的时刻。
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And it's, it also says something to me about as we get more and more, as there are more and more others. It seems to me, perhaps ironically that, or paradoxically, that it's becoming even more important to pay attention to everyone of us. As we are, as we become, you know, once now that there are eight billion of us, there's a tendency to think that each individual one of us becomes increasingly insignificant, you know, drops of, drops of rain in an ocean.
第七段：
对我来说，随着我们变得越来越多，随着越来越多的人存在，它也传达了一些信息。或许讽刺的是，或许是矛盾的，我认为这变得更加重要，要关注我们每个人。随着我们的存在和成长，现在有80亿人，往往会认为我们每个人都变得越来越微不足道，就像海洋里的水滴一样。
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And I think it's incumbent upon us, it's important to remember the importance, the, the sanctity almost of every single person. And you know, I, I illustrate the, I illustrate the story by, by reference to, Merwin Peake, who was, you know, most people were known for Garmin, Gaston, Titus, Grown, but he was a writer and an artist and he was sent that British newspaper to record the liberation of Nelson concentration camp at the end of the war and the end of the Second World War.
我认为我们有责任记住每个人的重要性，几乎是圣洁的意义。我用梅尔文·皮克的故事来阐述这个观点。他是一个作家和艺术家，虽然大多数人只知道加曼，加斯顿，提图斯和格朗。他被派往英国报纸，记录二战后解放纳尔逊集中营的过程。
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And he was, he was clearly from his writings and his work, he was deeply, deeply, you know, profoundly affected by the Second World War. You know, he wrote, in the rhyme of a flying ball, he imagined a sailor running through the streets of London carrying a baby. And while, while the high explosive rains down all around him and you wrote, you know, a tongue came down and a colored road and a tongue came down and a gel and a tongue came down and a freckled girl. You know, so he's imagining, you know, this, this sailor with her precious life in his arms, you know, because of the importance of every single life, including that baby.
通过他的文字和作品，可以清晰地看出他受到了第二次世界大战的深刻影响。他在以飞球的韵律写作中，想象了一个水手抱着婴儿在伦敦街头奔跑。在高爆弹雨中，他写道：“一只舌头伸出来，有了一个有颜色的路，还有一只舌头伸出来，又是一个凝胶，接着又是一只舌头伸出来，一个有雀斑的女孩子。”因为每一个生命都很重要，包括那个婴儿，所以他想象了这个水手用他的双臂保护着这个珍贵的生命。
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And when he was in Nelson, he saw amongst many horrors, he saw a young girl dying in her hospital bed, a dying of, of consumption. If seeing her an hour before her last week cough into all blackness, I could yet be held by chalk white arms and by the great ash-colored bed and the pillow is hardly creased by the tapping of her little cough jerked head. If such can be a painter's ex to say, her limbs like pipes, her head, a china skull, then where is mercy?
当他在纳尔逊的时候，他目睹了许多恐怖的场面之一是一个年轻女孩正在她的病床上奄奄一息地死去，死于消耗病。如果在她生命的最后一个星期之前，看到她咳嗽得让所有黑暗围绕着她，我仍然被她粉笔般白皙的手臂和浅灰色的床以及极少有皱纹的枕头所吸引，并被她小小的咳嗽颤动的头颅掌控。如果这样的情景可以成为一位画家所表达的，她的四肢像管子一样，她的头骨像陶瓷一样，那么，仁慈在哪里呢？
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In amongst, in amongst all of the horror, you know, he's paying attention to the individual, you know, that, that, that, that single solitary death was important to notice and that, and that the loss of her was not just to be subsumed by the millions and the tens of millions and the hundreds of millions of people who had died and were dying as a result of the war.
在所有的恐怖中，他关注个体，那个独自一人的死亡是值得关注的，她的失去不应该仅仅被数百万、数千万、数亿因战争死亡或将要死亡的人所淹没。
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You know, as, as we grow, there's all sorts of predictions about us getting to 10 billion, you know, and then, then some people say that, that 10 billion will be the peak and that then there will be a, there will be a falling away that the numbers will start to reduce. But while the numbers are continuing to grow, it just seems to me that we have to, we have to pay attention to the fact that either, either every one of us matters or none of us matter.
随着人口增长，有人预测我们最终将达到100亿的规模。有些人说到达100亿会是人口峰值，之后人口数量将开始减少。但在人口数量不断增长的同时，我们必须意识到每个人都很重要，否则谁也不重要。
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So when it comes to the Second World War and and Hitler, there are so many key moments that you could have picked out. Why did you choose the moment in 1933 when he became Chancellor of Germany?
所以，当提到第二次世界大战和希特勒时，有很多关键时刻可以选择。你为什么选择1933年他成为德国总理的时刻？意图是什么？
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He had such an impact, of course, the power of that, again, you know, the power of the individual of it, one more than one occasion through the, through the telling of the story, I, I tried to acknowledge that individuals, single people have mattered and have made and have made the difference to people like the Buddha, people like Muhammad, people like Jesus Christ. For obvious reasons that I don't need to explain, have changed the world and have and have altered the destinies of millions and billions of people by their, by their very existence. And on the other side of that coin is an individual like, like Adolf Hitler, who, you know, is the power of his will and the influence that he was able to exert just as one person.
他的影响力是如此之大，当然了，这种个人的力量，我在讲述故事的时候多次试图认可：单个人的影响是值得重视的，比如像佛陀、穆罕默德、耶稣基督这样的人。由于明显的原因，我不需要解释，他们改变了世界，通过他们的存在，改变了数百万、数十亿人的命运。而另一面，有一个人，如阿道夫·希特勒，他的意志力和影响力能够产生巨大的影响。
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You know, what grew from him as an individual was one of the most, I would say that his, his coming to power was, you know, might have been the one of the most or the most significant event of the 20th century because it's set, it's set humankind on a path. You know, and we're still, we're still dealing with the consequences now, the consequences of his existence.
你知道，他个人的成长是最重要的之一，他的掌权可能是20世纪最重要的事件之一，因为它让人类走上了一条道路。我们现在仍在应对他存在的后果。
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And when it came to, as opposed, I was never going to be able to do something like the Second World War. How, how do you tell the story of the Second World War? It involves tens of millions of people. It involves the whole world. And so how, how does that person go about taking on board what the significance was of the Second World War and, and for me, it just boiled down to the fact that had had the sequence of events not unfolded that gave Adolf Hitler absolute power in Germany, the world would have been a very different place.
而谈到第二次世界大战时，我从来没有想过能够完成那样的事情。如何讲述第二次世界大战的故事呢？它涉及数千万人，涉及整个世界。那么，一个人如何才能理解第二次世界大战的重要性呢？对我来说，真正重要的是，如果没有导致阿道夫·希特勒在德国获得绝对权力的一系列事件的发生，世界将会是一个截然不同的地方。
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And so that, for me, that moment of him being given, being made Chancellor, just set the destiny for the rest of time, everything that has happened since has been affected directly or indirectly by the fact that that Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany.
对我来说，当阿道夫·希特勒被任命为总理时，那一刻决定了未来的命运。自那时起，一切发生的事情都直接或间接受到了希特勒成为德国总理的影响。
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Still to come on the History Extra Podcast. By, by focusing in on one person, I was, I was trying to, I was trying to humanize and, and make it conceivable to think about the impact of, of the Second World War, of the dropping of the bomb, by, by telling the story of just one person.
还有即将在《历史额外播客》上呈现的内容。通过聚焦一个人的角度，我试图使第二次世界大战以及投下原子弹所带来的影响具象化，通过讲述这一个人的故事来实现这一目的。
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So, you, in the book, you have figures like Hitler, but you also have people that are less known, so when you discuss the bombing of Nagasaki, you focus on the tragic story of Tommy San, a Scottish Japanese man who takes his own life a few days after the bombing. What was it about his story that compelled you to include it?
因此，你在书中涉及到了希特勒等人物，但你也涉及到了一些不太知名的人物。所以，当你讨论长崎轰炸时，你会聚焦于汤米·山（Tommy San）这个悲惨的故事，他是一个有着苏格兰和日本血统的男子，在轰炸后的几天内自杀。是什么让你觉得有必要把他的故事包含在书中？
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I, um, I only know about this character, Tommy San, because I, I made a documentary, a number of years ago, it was a set of four, actually, the last explorers, and we were looking at British figures who had, who had been, who had caught the tail end of the great age of exploration around the end of the 1800s, early 1900s.
我只知道这个人物Tommy San，是因为几年前我拍摄了一部纪录片，名为《末代探险家》，共有四集。在这部纪录片中，我们研究了那些在19世纪末、20世纪初的伟大探险时代的尾巴上活跃的英国人物。
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And so we followed in the footsteps of William Spears Bruce, who was a, a Scottish, Antarctic explorer. Before Shadleton, before Scott, William Spears Bruce was down in that part of the world mapping and, and having his own adventure.
因此，我们步行在威廉·斯皮尔斯·布鲁斯的足迹中，他是苏格兰的南极探险家。在沙德尔顿之前、斯科特之前，威廉·斯皮尔斯·布鲁斯已经到过那个地方进行地图绘制和自己的探险活动。
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We also followed David Livingston into Africa, you know, he was the, you know, the great Christian explorer who was, who was attempting to open up Africa and, and connect Africa to the, to the wider world. He was trying to do that for the benefit of all Africans, but, but providing the root map into Africa for the European nations, you know, enabled a darker path to, to take shape for Africa.
我们也跟随戴维·利文斯顿进入了非洲，他是伟大的基督教探险家，致力于开放非洲并将非洲与更广泛的世界联系起来。他试图这样做是为了所有非洲人的利益，但是为欧洲国家提供进入非洲的路线图，让更黑暗的道路开始在非洲形成。
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We also followed John Muir, the, another Scott who was instrumental in, in starting the National Parks program in North America, you know, he's associated with Yosemite and saving the, the, the, the Redwood trees, the giant redwoods. And he's, he's regarded as the father of the National Parks movement in, in America. So he had a huge impact on the, on the, on the development of, of his adoptive country.
我们还追随约翰·缪尔这位苏格兰人，他在启动北美国家公园计划中扮演了重要角色，你知道的，他与优胜美地相关，拯救了红杉树，巨型红杉。他被认为是美国国家公园运动的创始人。因此，他对养育了他的国家的发展产生了巨大的影响。
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But we also followed Thomas Blake Glover, another Scott, and they're all Scott into, he was a, he was working in China for a tea company and he was sent into Japan and he was, he was one of the first European merchants to get into Japan when Japan was going through the painful process of opening up to the world after 200 years of having been deliberately closed off.
我们还跟随另一位苏格兰人托马斯·布莱克·格洛弗，他也像他们一样是苏格兰人。他曾在中国为一个茶叶公司工作，后来被派到日本。他是最早进入日本的欧洲商人之一，在日本经历了长达200年封闭后，正在痛苦地向世界敞开大门的过程中。
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Japan closed its borders to everyone for fear that Christianity was going to come in and undermine the power of the Emperor. And so Japan became a closed country for two centuries, but the Americans went in and insisted that, that Japan opened its borders. It was like gunboat diplomacy and all the rest of it. So Japan reluctantly and gradually started to open up to the wider world and Thomas Blake Glover went in and changed everything. It's, it's the most extraordinary story.
为了防止基督教会入侵并削弱天皇的权力，日本关闭其国境。因此，日本成为一个封闭的国家长达两个世纪，但美国却前去并坚持要求日本开放其国境。这就像枪舰外交等等。因此，日本初时勉强而逐渐开始对外开放。而托马斯·布莱克·格洛弗进入，并改变了一切。这是一个非常不同寻常的故事。
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He was a, he was a very clever individual, very entrepreneurial, he was very quick off the mark. He could speak Japanese. He was very, he understood the need to build relationships with the people and he, he spoke Japanese. He, he, he had relationships with Japanese women. He, he embedded himself in the culture.
他是一个非常聪明、有创业精神的人，非常机智。他会说日语。他深刻理解与人建立关系的重要性，与日本人交往。他与日本女性建立了关系，深入融入了文化。
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And in the long term, he was, he, he, he, he, he was a gun runner. He earned a, a faction during the great fight between the, those in support of the Shogun and those in favor of the, those in support of the Emperor. He brought industrialization. He was instrumental in bringing the, the steam trains, the steam locomotives and, and the railways into Japan. He, he was part of establishing the company that survived to this day as Mitsubishi. He was part of establishing the brewery that still makes Kirin beer, which is the, one of the top selling beers in Japan. He had this amazing impact and, and along the way, he, he married and he was involved with various Japanese women.
在长期的历史中，他曾是一位枪支走私者。在支持幕府和支持天皇的激烈争斗中，他获得了某个派别的支持。他带来了工业化，是将蒸汽火车、蒸汽机车和铁路引入日本的关键人物。他参与建立的公司如今成为了三菱集团。他也是建立麒麟啤酒厂的一部分，该品牌至今仍是日本畅销啤酒之一。他对日本产生了深远影响，并在此期间与多位日本女子有所交往。
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He had a son and he had a daughter. He had his son by, by a woman who was more like a common law wife. She was never really his, his legal wife. He left her behind and, and had an official marriage and official wedding, which gave him a daughter, but he, he went back and he seems to have come to some sort of arrangement with that, with that first woman. And he, he got the son and, and took the, and took the son and, and raised him within his own family with his second wife, with his legal wife. And many people, it's, it's erroneous really as far as we can tell, but a lot of people have him as the model for Lieutenant Colonel Pinkerton of Madam Butterfly because the, the story of him going and, and taking the child away and, and leaving this woman with nothing seems to be murdered in, in Puccini's opera.
他有一个儿子和一个女儿。他的儿子来自一个更像是恋爱关系的女人，而非其合法妻子。他离开了她，并且进行了一次合法婚姻和婚礼，生下了一个女儿。但随后，他似乎和那个第一个女人达成了某种安排。他把儿子带回家，与他的合法妻子一起抚养。很多人错误地认为他是《蝴蝶夫人》中的粉彩中校的模板，因为在普契尼的歌剧中，他把孩子带走，把那个女人留下而毫无被照顾的能力。
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And Tommy, Tommy San, is that, is that son? And, and Tommy San was, was a, was a figure who fell between two worlds. He was half Scottish, half Japanese, and one way or another, he never really seemed to find a place in either world. He was, he was regarded as an outsider by both. He came to Scotland, he spent time with his Scottish relatives, didn't fit in there, went back to Japan, and, but because he was, because he was half European, he always felt that he was treated with some suspicion. He lived, he lived long enough to come through the Second World War.
而汤米，汤米山，他是那个人的儿子吗？汤米山是一个落在两个世界之间的人物，他是苏格兰和日本的混血儿，但他似乎从未真正在两个世界中找到自己的位置。他被两方都视为外乡人。他来到苏格兰，与苏格兰的亲戚相处，但却不适应那里。之后回到日本，但因为他有一半欧洲血统，他总觉得自己受到了某些怀疑的待遇。他活得足够长，见证了第二次世界大战的结束。
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He was in Nagasaki when the, when the bomb dropped, but he survived that, but he could see what was coming. He could see that having been treated with suspicion by his, by his Japanese neighbors for most of his life, he was now going to be treated with suspicion by the occupying Americans and allied forces. And he took his life.
在原子弹爆炸的时候，他正在长崎，但他幸存了下来，但他看到了接下来会发生的事情。他看到在他的大部分生命里，被他的日本邻居怀有疑虑，现在他将会被占领的美国人和盟军怀有疑虑。于是他结束了自己的生命。
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He, he did away with his beloved pet dogs first, and then he hid himself in his home. And, to me, he's just a, he's just a, an emblem of the tragedy, of some of the tragedy of the Second World War, of some of the tragedy of what happened to Japan. And again, by, by focusing in on one person, I was, I was trying to, I was trying to humanize and, and make it conceivable to think about the impact of, of the Second World War, of the dropping of the bomb, by, by telling the story of just one person, and it ends the story of Tommy Sain.
他先是放弃了心爱的宠物狗，然后躲在自己的家里。对我来说，他只是二战悲剧和日本遭遇的象征。我通过聚焦一个人的故事，试图让人们更加人性化和理解二战的影响及投放原子弹所带来的影响。这个人就是汤米·塞恩的故事就此结束。
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Yeah, it's a really, really fascinating, but tragic story. And the last entry in your book is a poignant one as well. You, you end the book with the death in 2009 of Harry Patch, Britain's last surviving veteran of World War I. Why did you, why did you pick his story to end the book with?
这是一段非常迷人但悲惨的故事。你书中的最后一个部分也很感人。你以哈利·帕奇（Harry Patch）的去世作为书的结尾，他是英国最后一位存活的第一次世界大战老兵。为什么你选择以他的故事结束这本书呢？
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I, I suppose it's just in my wiring that for me, the, the, the First World War is just the most extraordinary story for me, the tragedy of it, the, the impact that it had on, on the civilization, you know, that it was the most shocking event.
我个人认为，由于我的天性，一战对我来说是最令人惊叹的故事。它的悲剧性质以及对文明所产生的影响，使它成为最令人震惊的事件。
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It, it bled inevitably into the Second World War, you know, for a lot of people, the First World War and the Second World War together are, are another 30 years war, you know, with, with a break, with a sort of a half time break in between them.
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第一次世界大战的影响不可避免地延续到了第二次世界大战，对于很多人来说，这两次世界大战加起来就像是另一场持续30年的战争，只是中间有一个休息时间。
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But the First World War just transfixes and fascinates me. It was one of the first historical events that I ever knew about, and it was because both of my grandfathers were there. My mum's dad was, was joined, joined the, joined up, volunteered under age, allied about his age, and was in the, in the armed forces, he was badly wounded, it gallipulate, he was shot by friendly fire, in fact, and he was, he was invalidated out of the army before he was out of his teens, and the injuries that he survived, shot in his life, he died long before I was born, but he did survive, you know, long enough to make my mother, else, you know, would be, wouldn't have in this conversation now.
但是，一战却牢牢扣住了我的心，让我着迷。这是我所知道的最早的历史事件之一，因为我的两个祖父都在那里。我母亲的父亲，当时未成年，自愿参军，谎报年龄入伍，加入了武装部队，被友军误伤而受重伤，在加里波利受伤。他在成年之前就因此免除了兵役，并在生命中经历了被枪击的伤病，他在我出生前很久就去世了，但他幸存了足够长的时间，以至于让我的母亲能够存在于这个世界，否则我们就无法有这个对话了。
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And my dad's dad was at the psalm and at Passiondale, he fought in Albert on the men in road, he was injured multiple times, but survived, likewise. And from a very young age, I was fascinated by that idea that had their lives taken a slightly different path, I wouldn't be here. My mum's dad was so badly wounded, he was lucky to survive, and my, my dad's dad being wounded again and again, you know, if you've been a bit closer to some of the shells that injured him again, I wouldn't have existed.
我的父亲的父亲曾参加了撒母尔和帕修恩德勒的战斗，在阿尔伯特对抗那些站在路上的敌人，在战斗中多次受伤，但依然幸存。从很小的时候开始，我对这种想法很着迷，如果他们的人生稍有不同，我就不会出现在这里。我母亲的父亲受伤非常严重，他有幸活下来，我的父亲的父亲一次又一次地受伤，如果那些伤害他的炮弹离他再近一些，我就不存在了。
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And so the First World War, as well as being this world encompassing, world enveloping event, it was personal to me, I felt, I felt directly connected to it, I felt, I felt connected to it from, I felt connected to the First World War for as long as I can remember.
第一次世界大战是一个全球性的事件，涵盖了整个世界，同时它与我有着个人的关系。我感到与它直接联系，因为我从我记事起就与它有了联系。
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And to me, it's, it's, it's Homeric, you know, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like the Punic Wars or the Peloponnesian War, the First World War is just so, it's unimaginable. If it hadn't really happened, you couldn't make it up to Koenakleshi.
对我来说，第一次世界大战就像荷马史诗一样，就像第一次布匿战争或伯罗奔尼撒战争一样，这场战争是如此的不可想象。如果它真的没有发生过，你也无法编造出这场战争。
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And so I'm profoundly affected by it. And so it, and I believe in my heart that we've never recovered from the First World War, and indeed the Second World War, which, which bled out of it.
因此，这深深地影响了我。我在心里坚信，我们从第一次世界大战，以及从它延伸的第二次世界大战中从未真正恢复过来。
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I believe that, that, that we're still, I believe that our, our parents, our grandparents were, were damaged profoundly by the, by the First World War. They were altered. And that we are, that we are effectively, the descendants, the generations alive now are like the damaged children of born to damaged parents. And I think that the idea that we're, even although we're, you know, a hundred years and we're beyond the First World War, to think that we're over it, I think is, is, is a hopeless, it's a hopeless mistake to make.
我认为我们的父辈和祖父母在第一次世界大战中受到了深刻的伤害，他们发生了变化。而我们现在活着的世代，实际上就像是受伤的父母所生的受损子女。即使我们已经过去100年，已经超过了第一次世界大战，认为我们已经走出了它的阴影是一种绝望的错误。
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I think we're still living in the aftermath of the First World War. And, and because it had such significance for the world as far as I'm concerned, that it changed everything that we're still dealing with the consequences. And, and it was for that reason that it made sense to me to, you know, to tell the story of the last, Harry Patches is the last fighting tomi.
我认为我们仍然生活在第一次世界大战的余波中。因为它对世界有如此重要的意义，它改变了我们仍在处理其后果的一切。正因如此，对我来说，讲述上一个战斗士兵哈里•帕奇斯的故事是有意义的，因为他是最后一个活着的战斗士兵。
Other people, other people, they've, outlived them that were, that were involved in the First World War. But he was actually a fighting soldier, you know, a man in the Sheen Gunn, he was wounded, he was, he was on the sharp end of the fighting. And he was, so he was the last fighting tomi. So, and when he died, he broke that living connection that had always been there, that we had among us people who had actually been there and seen the things and smelled the smells and witnessed the horror of it. And with his passing, it's now just hearsay. Everything to do with the First World War is now just history. It's now just the stuff of books and photographs and, and movie reels. We don't have anyone who was, who was really there and, and kind of, for a real testimony.
其他人，其他人，他们已经活过了那些参与第一次世界大战的人。但是他确实是一位战斗士兵，您知道，是Sheen Gunn的一个人，他受了伤，他处在战争的前线。因此，他是最后一个战斗的汤米。当他去世时，他打破了一直存在的这种联系，我们在其中有人实际上已经在那里看到了事情，并闻到了气味和目睹了恐怖。随着他的离去，现在只有传闻。关于第一次世界大战的一切现在只是历史。现在只有书籍、照片和电影卷的材料。我们没有任何人真的在那里，并发表了真实的证言。
And because of it's, as I said at the beginning, this is a personal, it's my story of, it's my, at 100 moment, it's the story that makes sense to me. And so it made sense to end with, with the passing, relatively recently of the last living witness, the last Sentinel of the First World War.
这个故事是我的个人经历，因此，它是我个人的故事，更是一百岁时代下让我感觉有意义的故事。因此，随着第一次世界大战中最后一位存活的见证者，最后一位哨兵相继而逝，这个故事以这样的方式结束让我感到非常有道理。
So, as you just said, it was, it was your 100 moments and you, you see history as personal. Are there any notable events you think people may be surprised you didn't include?
所以，正如你刚才所说，这是你的100个时刻，你把历史看作是个人的。你认为有哪些值得注意的事件，你觉得人们可能会惊讶地发现你没有包括在内？
Oh my goodness. I didn't see that one coming. Oh gosh. I do not, I like to think in my, my vanity. I like to think that although it's 100 moments, but there, there's more, I would say, in each of 100 moments than just the specific moment. I have done my level best to at least touch, however likely, on everything I could think of, of significance chronologically and geographically.
天啊，我完全没预料到这个。天哪，我不想在自己的虚荣心中去思考。我希望认为在这100个时刻之中，每一个时刻都包含着更多的意义，而不仅仅只是那一个具体的时刻。我已经尽我所能地触及所有我认为有意义的事情，无论是从时间轴上还是从地理位置上。
I mean, I know that's a bold claim and people will instantly steam in and say, yeah, but you didn't mention this person and you didn't tell that story, but I can honestly say hand on heart. For me, I've told the story I wanted to tell. People can pick it apart, it doesn't bother me or trouble me.
我是说，我知道这是一个大胆的说法，人们会立即涌入并说，是的，但你没有提到这个人，也没有讲述那个故事，但我可以诚实地说，我已经讲述了我想讲述的故事。人们可以对它进行分析，这不会让我烦恼或困扰。
I can already hear the voices saying, how could you possibly pretend to tell the story of the world and not mention? I'm sure people will say that instantly just on having thumbed through the index or look through the content, but I don't mind. So no, you know, in answer to your question, if I'd felt that there was something there that added to my version of the story of the world, it would be in the book.
我已经能够听到有人说：“你怎么可能假装讲述世界的故事而不提到？我敢肯定人们只要翻阅一下目录或查看内容就会立刻这样说，但我并不在意。所以，回答你的问题，如果我认为有什么东西能够为我讲述世界故事的版本增添内容，那么它就会出现在这本书中。”
So this is probably another hard question, then, as you said, you've written it chronologically rather than ranking them. Could you pick your top five?
所以，正如您所说，您按照时间顺序而非排名编写了这篇文章，那么这可能是另一个难题。你能挑出你前五吗？
I think the story of Theodor Dostoevsky seeing the dead Christ in the tomb, the whole by painting, I think huge resonance and significance, Dostoevsky and also Friedrich Nietzsche in the second half of the 19th century, where independently of one another came to the same conclusion, that because we had, as a civilization in the West, done away with God, that there would be terrible consequences. Whether you're a person of faith or not, they were both predicting that, because we had come from a civilization that was founded upon Judeo-Christian principles, that having taken the sort of sharp acts of scientific reason and having used that edge to, you know, to cut down the old growth forest of the thousands of years that had gone before, that there would be dread consequences. They were predicting the 20th century, the Holocausts and Channel Houses of the First World War and of the Second World War, of the rise of communism and the Soviet Union, you know, life behind iron curtain, the gulags, they saw it all coming.
我认为陶尔·陀思妥耶夫斯基在看到墓中死亡的基督的故事中，整个绘画给我留下了深刻的共鸣和意义。而且在19世纪后半叶，陀思妥耶夫斯基和弗里德里希·尼采在各自独立的情况下都得出了同样的结论：因为我们这个西方文明已经废除了上帝，所以将会有可怕的后果。无论你是否信仰，他们两个都预言了20世纪的事情，即大屠杀、第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战的战争和集中营、共产主义和苏联的崛起、铁幕背后的生活和古拉格。他们都看到了这些即将到来的事情。
And so, you know, in answer to your question, I think the existence of those thinkers and their intuition about the consequences that they could see that would be born out of the civilization or the world that they were living in, I think is extraordinary, that they saw that, that an independently of one another, although they were aware of each other, that they saw that coming, is so prophetic and so telling.
因此，你知道，回答你的问题，我认为那些思想家的存在和他们对所处文明或世界将出现的后果的直觉是非常非常特殊的，他们看到了这一点，虽然彼此独立，但他们彼此之间仍有意识。他们预见到了这一切，是如此的预言性和有力的。
So that, and for similar reasons, I'm very much affected by Alexander Solji Nixon and his testimony regarding the gulag archipelago. You know, he was there, he saw that and bore witness to it. And you know, within the gulag archipelago he includes testimony of hundreds of people who, with whom he was in contact, who were there and who witnessed it. And then by extrapolation, that that connects us to the millions of people, the anonymous, unknown millions who either perished in those camps or survived and somehow got out and went on to live the rest of their lives.
因此，因为类似的原因，亚历山大·索尔什尼金和他关于古拉格群岛的证言深深地影响了我。你知道，他亲眼看到了那里的情况，并作证。在古拉格群岛中，他收录了与他联系的数百人的证言，这些人都在那里并亲眼目睹了一切。通过推断，这让我们联系到了数百万个不知名的个体，他们或者在这些营地中死亡，或者在幸存并逃脱后继续了他们的生活。
So that's, I would say, Solji Nixon and the gulag archipelago. You can see a theme, I'm always affected, I suppose, by the individuals. And so the birth and life of the Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, who is the Buddha, the life of Muhammad, the life of Jesus Christ. I mean, how can you, how can you, you know, discount, how can you imagine a world without the impact made by those individuals?
我认为，索尔吉·尼克松和《古拉格群岛》是一个主题。我总是受个人的影响。因此，佛陀释迦牟尼的诞生和生活，穆罕默德的生活，耶稣基督的生活。我的意思是，你怎么能够忽略这些人对世界造成的影响，你怎么能够想象一个没有它们的世界？
I don't know if that gives us five, but I think that gives maybe a sense of the way I'm wired up.
我不知道这是否给我们带来了五个，但我想这或许能让你了解我思维方式的某种感觉。
How much has your work as an archaeologist influenced what you put into this book?
作为考古学家，你的工作对你在这本书中写入了哪些内容产生了多大的影响？
Oh, gosh, well, I'm always at pains to stress that I'm not a historian.
哦，天啊，我一直强调自己不是历史学家。
I'm not, I don't have any, I don't have any illusions.
我不是，我没有任何，我没有任何幻想。
这句话的意思是我不是某种人，我没有任何某种的东西或想法，也没有任何幻想或不实的期望。
I'm not an academic historian.
我不是学术历史学家。意思是本人并非专门从事历史学术方面的研究工作。
I studied archaeology at university, but archaeology appeals to me for other, I like, I love history because of the stories.
我在大学学习考古学，但我对考古学的吸引力是因为它包含了很多历史故事，我喜欢、热爱历史。
It's no more than that for me.
对我来说不过如此而已。
I'm just fascinated by the storytelling of history.
我对历史的叙事深感着迷。
I think history is a narrative.
我认为历史是一种叙事。
I think history has to be personal because there is no objective truth about why the past unfolded as it did.
我认为历史必须是个人的，因为关于过去为什么会发展成现在这个样子，没有客观的真相。
Hence, that's why I think it is relevant to produce something as personal as mine, because that's the product of me thinking about the moments in history that seem significant to me.
因此，我认为创作属于我个人的作品是相关的，因为它是我思考历史中重要时刻而产生的产物。
And archaeology, although history had been my thing at school, I barely knew that archaeology existed when I was at school.
虽然在学校历史一直是我的强项，但我在学校时几乎不知道考古学的存在。
We certainly didn't have it as a subject.
我们肯定没有将它作为一门课程。
意思是指我们并没有在学校或其他培训机构中学习这个特定的主题或技能。
And it was only when I was thinking about university that I stumbled across the idea of archaeology and it appealed to me again for the simple reason that it promised the opportunity to touch things, to go to place, not just to read about places and things, but to go to places where things had happened, where people had built a house, had a fire and cooked some food, where people had buried one of their dead.
直到考虑就读大学时，我才偶然发现了考古学，它再次吸引了我。这是因为它承诺了一个机会去亲身感受东西，而不仅仅是读书。在那里，我可以亲身去到那些发生过事情的地方，那些人们建房子、烧火和煮食的地方，在那里人们埋葬了他们的亲人。
And the fact that you could go to these places and actually excavate them and then touch that.
而事实是你可以去这些地方进行挖掘，然后触摸它们。
Just the thought of that always puts the hairs up on the back of my neck.
只是想到那件事就让我整个人汗毛倒竖。这个想法总是让我感到非常害怕。
And so in answer to your question, my love of archaeology explains why history appeals to me and the way that it does.
因此，回答你的问题，我对考古学的热爱解释了为什么历史吸引我以及它吸引我的方式。
It's just simple excitement.
这只是简单的兴奋。
I find the idea of the past exciting.
我觉得过去的想法很令人兴奋。
And archaeology, the archaeology that I have been involved with over the years thrills me, because from time to time I've had the opportunity to actually physically touch the past.
我一直从事考古学工作，这个领域让我无比兴奋，因为我有时候真的可以亲手接触到过去的物品。
It's childish.
这很幼稚。
I know it's just a small boy excitement about finding something lost in the grass and picking it up and handling it and wondering who dropped it.
我知道这只是小男孩对找到草丛中丢失物品的兴奋，他把它捡起来并观察它，想知道是谁掉落了它。
That's what archaeology does for me and that excitement leads across into why, for me, it's, I suppose you could say that I've tried to distill the history down into the 100 moments so that each of the moments is a little shiny, a little shiny artifact.
对我来说，考古学就是这样令人兴奋的事情。而这份激动往往转化为我为什么认为，我想你可以说我尝试将历史浓缩成100个时刻，让每个时刻都成为一个小小的、闪闪发光的文物。
Something that catches my eye in the same way that a little bit of broken stone tool would catch my eye on an excavation and it just focuses my attention.
有些东西可以像我在挖掘中发现一小块破碎的石头工具一样引起我的注意，它可以让我专注于它。
So my final question for you, you've told the story of Britain in 100 places and the world in 100 moments, what's next?
我的最后一个问题是，您已经讲述了“英国100处地方”的故事和“全球100个时刻”的故事，接下来呢？请问您计划做什么？
Well, in between, in between I did a story about the wisdom of the ancient.
嗯，在此期间，我写了一个关于古人智慧的故事。表达的意思是在某个时间段内，我写了一个关于古人智慧的故事。尽量易读的翻译是：同时，我还写了一个关于古人智慧的故事。
As an archaeologist, it partly explains why some of the moments are in this book and not others.
作为一名考古学家，这部书中包含的场景比其他的一些更为重要，这在一定程度上可以解释原因。
For me, when it comes to being an archaeologist, I was never most excited by finding something or looking for something of great intrinsic value, like a gold coin.
对我来说，当谈到成为考古学家时，我从来没有最为激动的是发现某些具有内在价值的东西，比如金币。
I was always most affected by the slightest trace, you know, a footprint, you know, a human footprint left behind or evidence of a meal cooked 7,000 years ago.
我总是被最微小的痕迹所影响，你知道的，例如足迹，人类留下的足迹，或者是7000年前烹饪的食物的痕迹。
You know, the idea of finding the remains of people cooking a meal thousands of years ago and the images, the pictures that that enables you to build in your head of people coming together to do something so instantly recognizable.
你知道吗，找到几千年前一个人烹饪餐食的遗骸，这个想法让你能够在脑海中构建出想象的图像和场景，人们聚在一起做能立即被认出的事情。
I mean, we can all identify with the idea of gathering together with some people to share some food.
我是说，我们都能理解与一些人聚在一起分享食物的想法。
So, you know, a burnt hazelnut shell, you know, evidence of cooking.
所以，你知道，一个烧焦的榛子壳，是烹饪的证据。
It flakes of stone left behind by somebody putting an edge back on a tool so that they can do something with it sharp on a piece of wood or cut a bit of animal hide to fashion it into a piece of clothing.
这是由于有人在工具上磨削以使其锋利后留下的碎石片，用以在一块木头上切割或切割一小块动物皮毛，以制成服装之用。
I think I'm always drawn to maybe things that might be overlooked, the sort of items that would never get displayed in a museum case because they're not shiny enough or lovely enough.
我觉得我总是被一些可能被忽略的东西所吸引，那种不够闪亮或不够美丽的物品，它们永远不会被展示在博物馆展示柜中。
And so, I suppose when it comes to looking forward, I might be looking at considering some of the things that have been found in the past, the kind of traces that would just otherwise be overlooked, but maybe if you pay a different kind of attention to them, these seemingly insignificant things have stories to tell, and that appeals to me.
因此，当考虑向前发展时，我会考虑一些在过去发现的东西，那些似乎会被忽略的痕迹。或许，只有你以一种不同的关注方式去看待它们，这些看似微不足道的东西才有故事可讲，而这正是吸引我的地方。
That was Neil Oliver.
那是尼尔·奥利弗。
The story of the world in a hundred moments is out now published by Bantam Press.
《百个时刻中的世界故事》已由班塔姆出版社出版发行。这本书展现了世界历史中的一百个重要时刻，现在已经可以购买阅读了。
Thanks for listening.
谢谢你的倾听。表达感谢对方听取自己的话，并表示自己感激。
This podcast was produced by Benuit, Jack Bateman and Brittany Colley.
这个播客由Benuit、Jack Bateman和Brittany Colley制作。
We'll be back tomorrow with an episode on everything you wanted to know about the Treaty of Versailles.
明天我们会回来，带来一集专门介绍凡尔赛条约的所有你想知道的内容。