Antony Beevor on the Russian revolution

Hello and welcome to the History Extra Podcast from BBC History Magazine and BBC History Review. I'm Ellie Corthon.

大家好，欢迎收听由BBC历史杂志和BBC历史评论共同制作的历史额外播客。我是艾丽•科顿。

Anthony Beaver is one of the world's best-selling military historians. He's mainly known for his books on Second World War battles, such as Stalingrad, Berlin, and Arnhem. But for his latest book, which has published this month, Anthony is exploring the events of the Russian Revolution and Civil War.

安东尼·比弗是世界上最畅销的军事历史学家之一。他主要以关于第二次世界大战的战斗（如斯大林格勒、柏林和阿纳姆）为人知。但是，在他最新出版的这本书中，他探究了俄罗斯革命和内战的历史事件。

Following the story from the overthrow of the Russians on, Nicholas II in February 1917, through to the Bolshevik coup of October that year and the brutal conflict that followed, pitting the Bolshevik Red Army against the multitude of opponents ranged against them. Robata spoke to Anthony to find out more.

本文讲述了从1917年2月俄国沙皇尼古拉二世被推翻的故事，一直到同年10月布尔什维克政变及其后的残酷冲突，红军与其众多对手的对抗。Robata采访了Anthony以了解更多情况。

Most of the books you've written over your career so far have been focused primarily on the Second World War era. What made you decide to head back some 20 years for this book? The most important thing was really to understand the chicken and egg, the chain of history of the disasters of the 20th century, which actually are still with us today as we see in Ukraine.

你职业生涯中写的大部分书籍都主要关注于第二次世界大战时期。你为什么要回头二十年来写这本书呢？最重要的是要理解20世纪灾难的鸡蛋和鸡，历史的链条，这些灾难实际上仍然存在于我们今天，正如在乌克兰所看到的那样。

And that he's totally important for everybody and also above all, for a historian when writing about that particular period, to see how it fits in. The one great German historian referred to the First World War as the original catastrophe. And that is true and that led to this great debate. What was the long war of the 20th century? Did it go from 1914 to 1945 or from 1914 to 1989 and the collapse of the Soviet Union? Michael Howard and one or two others argued that the original part of the First World War was an extension of the great past struggles of the 19th century.

他对每个人都非常重要，尤其是对于历史学家来说，他们在写有关特定时期的历史时，需要看看它如何适应它。一位伟大的德国历史学家把一战称为最初的灾难。这是真的，这引发了这场伟大的争论。二十世纪的长久战争是从1914年到1945年还是从1914年到1989年苏联崩溃？迈克尔·霍华德和其他一两个人认为，一战的最初部分是19世纪伟大过去斗争的延续。

So I can go back if I'm once to it. But all I'm saying is sort of a question of arguing that is it's a question of just understanding the way it did all came together. And the importance as I'd realized years ago, I think, because I wanted to write about this subject long ago when I was actually not ready to tackle it.

所以我可以回到它，如果我曾经能做到。但我要说的只是一个争论的问题，那就是要理解它是如何组成的。而我几年前意识到的重要性，我想是因为我很久以前想写这个主题，但当时我并没有准备好去解决它。

Was the Russian Civil War and all of the civil wars around it? Let's face it, Hungary, Finland, Germany. I think that period at the end of the First World War, 1917, 1918, 1919, because that was what led on. It created a terrible fear amongst the middle classes, after the horrors, the destruction, the wanton destruction of the Russian Civil War, some 12 million dead in it even rivaling the whole of the First World War.

俄国内战及其周边的所有内战都发生在第一次世界大战结束后的那段时期。回顾那段时期，包括匈牙利、芬兰和德国。那是在1917、1918、1919年导致的。俄国内战造成的恐惧令中产阶级感到非常不安，因为战争带来了恐怖、毁灭和无法无天的破坏，其死亡人数达到了1200万人，甚至可以与整个一战相媲美。

And at the same time also, it had galvanized the left, the Bolsheviks of Communists. And this is where one sees that vicious circle of rhetoric which developed above all in the 1930s, and as you know, I've written about the Spanish Civil War. And once there, of course, once again, one sees this fear of what had happened in Russia, being this huge influence and a knock on effect, providing, if you're at the proxy war of the Spanish Civil War, and even the Russian Civil War itself, it was to a larger degree also, a proxy war with British intervention under Churchill.

同时，这使得左翼、共产主义者的布尔什维克们也振奋起来。在这里，我们可以看到上世纪三十年代主要发展起来的语言上的恶性循环，正如您所知，我曾写过关于西班牙内战的文章。当然，一旦到了那里，我们又可以看到对俄罗斯所发生的事情的恐惧，成为了巨大的影响，同时也产生了连锁反应，例如西班牙内战和俄罗斯内战。在更大的程度上，这也是一场英国干涉的代理战争，由丘吉尔指挥进行。

So this is really what dominates the whole of our century. And I think that the Russian Civil War is not understood well enough partly because it's a very much more complex and focused subject than the many of the others. And that was why something for the me has always been a sort of a tremendous challenge to do at some particular time. And it's all in fact almost entirely due to the possibility of the wonderful research done by my great Russian colleague over the last five years, Louis Vinaigradava, which has made this one possible.

这实际上是主宰我们整个世纪的东西。我认为俄国内战并没有受到足够的理解，部分原因是它比其他许多主题更为复杂和专注。这就是为什么对我来说，一直都是一项巨大的挑战，需要在某个特定时间完成。而这几乎完全是由于我的俄国同事Louis Vinaigradava在过去五年中进行的出色研究所带来的可能性。

And so as you said, you and your colleague have spent many years researching this book, what new perspectives on the period in the conflict have emerged from the work that you've done over the past few years? I mean, to be very honest, the sheer horror of it. I mean, the Spanish Civil War was cruel enough, but that was cruel in killings. Here one sees a savagery assadism, which is very, very hard in a way to still to comprehend.

正如你所说，你和你的同事已经花了很多年研究这本书，你们在过去几年的工作中有哪些对这段冲突时期的新的视角？说实话，这个时期的恐怖令人震惊。我的意思是，西班牙内战已经够残酷了，但那只涉及到杀戮。在这个时期，我们看到了一种野蛮的酷刑，这种残忍甚至很难理解。

It's a very difficult question. And I mean, it's one which I'm still mulling over and trying to understand, not just the build up of hatred over centuries, but the way that there was a vengeance which seemed to be required, which as I say, went beyond the killing. I mean, it was it was the sheer horrible inventiveness of the tortures which were inflicted on people.

这是一个非常困难的问题。我的意思是，我仍在思考并试图理解的问题不止是几个世纪以来仇恨的积累，还有似乎需要报复的方式，就像我所说的，超越了杀戮。我的意思是，那些折磨人的方法真的是太可怕了，充满了恶意的发明。

And one therefore needs also to look at the origins of the Civil War in the sense of, you know, who started it, how did it start, was it avoidable. But one also needs to see the different patterns between the red terror and the white terror. And this again was something reflected within the Spanish Civil War and almost all wars in a way, all civil wars. And looking at the question, why are civil wars so much cruel as so much more savage than state-on-state wars?

因此，人们需要考虑内战的起源，即是谁开始了内战，它是如何开始的，是否可以避免。但人们还需要看到红色恐怖和白色恐怖之间的不同模式。这在西班牙内战中得到了体现，几乎所有内战都有这样的情况。而且，我们需要思考一个问题，为什么内战比国家对国家的战争更加残酷？

Terms of the terror that was inflicted by both sides on the Civil War, how far was that being centrally directed by the Bolshevik leadership or the white generals? And how far did that just emerge from the chaos of war?

内战期间双方施加的恐怖行为，到底有多少是由布尔什维克领导层或白军将领中心指挥的，还是纯粹源于战争混乱的情况所导致的？

Well, a lot of it obviously did emerge from the chaos of war, even the checker and the commander Felix Zysinski never really controlled many of the local checkers where some of the worst atrocities were committed in Kiev, Karkov. I mean, again, names we're seeing every day in the newspapers here.

显然，许多事情是从战争的混乱中出现的，甚至检查员和指挥官菲利克斯·齐辛斯基也无法真正控制当地的检查员，其中一些最严重的暴行在基辅和哈尔科夫发生。我的意思是，这些地方的名字我们每天在这里的报纸上都能看到。

It was a different pattern from two points of view. One was that as we found, say with Franco and the nationalists in the Spanish Civil War, a smaller party trying to control or a smaller political grouping, trying to control areas where they are in a tiny minority will often resort to terror simply to make up for the numbers.

从两个角度来看，这是一种不同的模式。一个是在我们发现，比如西班牙内战中的佛朗哥和民族主义者，一个较小的政党或政治集团试图控制他们在少数派地区的行为，通常会采用恐怖主义手段来弥补人数不足。

This was very much the case of Lenin determined to crush opposition to the Bolshevik coup d'etat in November of the great revolution which they referred to which actually was a coup d'etat. They're immediately attacked by all the other socialist parties for their arrogance and determination to run everything. And they were obviously going to push them aside, having already then issued basically threat of civil war which was basically a threat of class genocide against the Bolshevik regime, referring to them as lice, cockroaches or whatever, which had to be exterminated. And from Lenin's point of view, therefore the red terror was something which was essential right from the beginning.

列宁决心镇压对十月伟大革命中布尔什维克政变的反对声音，这是非常显而易见的。其他社会主义党派立即抨击布尔什维克的傲慢和他们垄断一切的决心，同时他们也明显地在试图推翻布尔什维克政权。布尔什维克已经发布了一份基本上是对内战的威胁，这实际上是对阶级屠杀的威胁，把他们称为虱子、蟑螂或其他必须被消灭的害虫。对于列宁来说，红色恐怖是从一开始就不可或缺的。

The other thing which actually funny enough we are seeing again today from the Kremlin is the torrent of lies of complete falsehood. And that was actually how the Soviet Union started. Lenin had promised the peasants that they were going to get the land when it was taken from landowners and the Orthodox Church. He promised the factory workers that they would be running through the Soviets, they would be running the factories. And he promised the soldiers suffering on the eastern front that they would have peace when in fact he was determined to change the imperialist war into civil war. There were three fundamental lies right from the start. And truth has never been a factor if you like ever since throughout the whole of the Soviet Union.

今天我们从克里姆林宫看到的另一件有趣的事情是，他们所说的谎言和彻底的错误非常多。实际上，这正是苏联的起点。列宁曾承诺农民将会获得从土地所有权者和东正教会手中夺取的土地，他承诺工厂工人通过苏维埃来管理工厂。他也承诺在东线前线遭受苦难的士兵们将会得到和平，但实际上他是决心把帝国主义战争变成内战。从一开始就有三个基本谎言，而真理从来没有像整个苏联那样被视为因素。

And I think that this has been something one can go back into the Sari's times, of course the U.S. was lies there. But that was much more a question of simply believing they're in propaganda. Here it is quite shameless, quite deliberate. As one saw right from the start in 1917 and right through all the way through the whole period of the Soviet Union. And this was to cover up basically their plan or Lenin's plan to exert total control in all directions.

我认为这是可以追溯到萨里时代的事情，当然当时美国还在发展中。但那时更多的是简单地相信他们的宣传。而在现在这里，这种宣传是非常无耻、故意的。正如人们从1917年一开始就看到的，一直持续到整个苏联时期。这是为了掩盖列宁或苏联全面控制计划的基本计划。

And he and Trotsky of course completely despised any idea of Bushwa democracy in their particular way. Because they knew that they would not win the elections to the Constituent Assembly. And of course there were theorists and that was why although they had in theory supported the Constituent Assembly which had been called forth by the provisional government, the moment that they were in par and it was the date of the Constituent Assembly to open in the Torae Palace. They then completely crushed it by bringing in the loyal vanguard of sailors from the Baltic fleet basically to eject and then prevent any of the elected deputies from returning. And that was that very very brief moment of very brief chance of democracy.

他和托洛茨基当然非常鄙视任何布什瓦民主的想法，因为他们知道自己不可能赢得制宪议会选举。当然，还有一些理论家，所以尽管他们理论上支持由临时政府颁布的制宪议会，但当他们处于制宪议会开幕的托雷宫的现场时，他们通过引进波罗的海舰队忠实的先锋队来摧毁它，基本上驱逐并阻止任何当选代表的返回。那是非常短暂的民主机会的非常短暂的时刻。

So it was the infanticidal democracy. So yes so there was before the October revolution where there was of course the February revolution where the Tsar abdicated. And also there was a few months where Russia had this provisional government and had perhaps the potential for democracy.

因此，这是一个杀婴的民主方式。是的，在十月革命之前，俄罗斯经历了二月革命，沙皇退位。此外，有几个月俄罗斯有临时政府，有可能实现民主。

Why do you think that was snuffed out so quickly? Why were the Bolsheviks able to seize power so soon after the previous revolution?

你认为为什么那场革命被很快地扼杀了？为什么布尔什维克能够在之前的革命后很快地夺取了权力？ 这句话的意思是：为什么那场革命很快就失败了？为什么布尔什维克能够在很短的时间内夺取了政权？

Well liberals and especially one thinks of a wonderful liberal tradition of Russia, of Houtsern, of Chekhov, of Tolstoy, of all of their sort of wonderful writers and thinkers. They in fact were in a way incapable of getting their ideas across to the mass of the people who had been deliberately undereducated, who had been kept in ignorance for centuries, particularly obviously the servant's selfs before the abolition of Serfdom.

自由主义者们，尤其是我们想到俄罗斯美好的自由传统，想到豪尔采尔恩、契诃夫、托尔斯泰，以及所有这些出色的作家和思想家。但实际上，这些人在某种程度上无法向故意被低教育水平和无知束缚多个世纪的大众传达他们的思想，尤其显然是废除农奴制度之前的仆人阶层。

There was a fundamental problem also which was a political one. Houtsern described the pregnant widow, the idea that when one regime was fallen, this is very dangerous into regdom before a new regime emerged.

还有一个根本性的问题，是政治上的问题。豪策恩描述了“孕妇寡妇”这个想法，即当一个政权倒台时，很容易落入无政府状态，在新政权崛起之前非常危险。

And the provisional government was in an impossible position. It was basically liberals but then emerged with socialists from the patriotic area of Soviet, trying to hold together a country which was obviously was split, where the whole administration, both in the countryside and in the towns, had disappeared.

临时政府处于一种无法挽回的局面。它基本上是自由主义者，但其后又涌现出来自爱国苏维埃一带的社会主义者，试图维持一个明显分裂的国家，而且在农村和城镇的整个行政管理层都已消失。

I mean the police of course were the most hated of all of this or its institution. And they had all had to flee their lives for those of them who had not been killed during the February Revolution. People forget that the February Revolution actually was a very bloody revolution, it wasn't a bloodless one.

当然，警察是最受人憎恨的职业，也是最受人憎恨的机构。在2月革命中幸存下来的警察不得不逃离他们的生命。人们忘记了2月革命实际上是一场非常血腥的革命，而不是无血革命。

But even then there was a tremendous optimism that sort of a loss will be freedom and that sort of effect everybody's attitudes that Russians would love one another and all the rest of it. But in fact, with the destruction that was left after the riots, the way that in the countryside particularly peasants and soldiers returning from the front would loot every alcohol base or every distillery they could. And then would start burning and smashing up the estates and the landowners, manor houses and so forth.

但即便如此，人们仍然极度乐观地认为这种损失会带来自由，并且这种影响会使俄罗斯人互相热爱等等。但事实上，在骚乱过后留下的破坏中，乡村尤其是农民和从前线归来的士兵会掠夺每个含酒精的地方或酒厂。然后开始烧毁和破坏庄园、地主府等等。

And when they tried to hand over their manor houses to the peasants on the estates and said, look, it's yours, don't destroy. They would still feel compelled that another landlord would come back in the future so they did have to destroy it. And this suited the Bolsheviks and Lenin exactly what they needed. They wanted lawlessness, they wanted chaos because this upsurge of chaotic violence was actually bullosing away through for the Bolsheviks to cease power because the liberals were incapable of basically doing anything about it.

当他们试图将庄园交给领地上的农民并说：“看，这是你们的，不要摧毁它。”他们仍然感到被迫认为另一个地主将来会回来，因此他们必须摧毁它。而这恰好符合了布尔什维克和列宁所需求的东西。他们想要无法无天，他们想要混乱，因为这种混乱暴力的涌现实际上是为了布尔什维克掌握权力而不是自由主义者基本上无法对此做任何事情。

They had the levers of power attached to no forces of power. And all they could do was to say, well, we can't take any decisions until the new democratic constituent of assembly has come together and has taken the decisions. So that was why it was sort of doubly dangerous and why they were vulnerable. And it was frustration with the lack of decision making, which of course increased the power of the Bolsheviks simply because they were the seem to be the only ones who were in a position really to force through change.

他们掌握了权力的杠杆，但没有实际的掌控力量。他们无法做出任何决定，只能说要等新的民主代议机构集结并做出决定。因此，他们显得非常危险和脆弱。由于缺乏决策，人们感到非常沮丧，这增加了布尔什维克党的权力，因为他们似乎是唯一一个真正能够促成变革的力量。

But nobody knew what the changes were going to be because Lenin had kept that very, very quiet of what his real plans were. And once the Bolsheviks had seized power in October 17, how revolutionary was the government that they installed? Well, even many Bolsheviks were shocked by Lenin's extremism, the idea of abolishing the police, abolishing the army and all the rest of it and having just read guards from the factories of nationalizing absolutely everything.

但是没有人知道这些变化会是什么样子，因为列宁保持了非常非常保密，不让人知道他真正的计划是什么。一旦布尔什维克党在1917年的十月革命夺取了政权，他们建立了多么革命化的政府呢？实际上，甚至许多布尔什维克党员也对列宁的极端主义感到震惊，比如要废除警察、废除军队，并且从工厂的红卫兵中招募警卫，把一切东西都国有化。

This wasn't apparent beforehand, you know, they were going to take over the banks and not surprisingly, both whether it was the banks or in the ministries. Many of the civil servants didn't want to work with the new government.

之前并不明显，他们打算接管银行，而且不出所料，无论是在银行还是政府部门都这样。许多公务员不愿意与新政府合作。

So this is when the paranoia started and Lenin wanted to bring in the checker saying, actually, I mean, he was even accusing the Bolsheviks of somehow sabotaging food supplies. Well, actually, the Bolsheviks had virtually no control of food supplies at all.

这就是导致列宁产生妄想症的时刻，他想要引入核查员，实际上，他甚至指责布尔什维克在某种程度上破坏了粮食供应。实际上，布尔什维克几乎没有控制粮食供应。

A lot of the problem had been due to the railways and the lack of railing stock. And in fact, in the earlier part of the year, Russia had roughly valid, but that lived good food reserves. But many of those were just wrecked during that chaotic summer with the lack of planting, with the lack of work on the farm. And this was the start of a downward cycle. And every single measure that the Bolsheviks brought in to try to grab food from the persons to give to the cities only made the situation worse and worse.

许多问题是由铁路运输和缺乏货车导致的。实际上，在今年年初，俄罗斯有相当充足的好食品储备，但其中许多在那个混乱的夏季仅仅因为缺乏种植和农场工作处于摧毁状态。这是一个下降周期的开始。而布尔什维克为了从普通人手中抢夺粮食以供应城市而采取的每一项措施只会让情况变得越来越糟糕。

Still to come on the history extra podcast. These were communists from the cities sent out to extract the food. And they would just seize the seed corn as well for the next year. So the harvests were totally disastrous. And I mean there was cannibalism in many areas.

在历史额外播客中还有以下内容。这些是从城市派出的共产主义者去提取食物。他们甚至也会把下一年的种子抢走。因此，收成是完全灾难性的。我是说许多地区都有人吃人。

So do you think there was anything that the Bolsheviks could have done differently to prevent the civil war that came? Was it really inevitable after their coup d'état? The Bolsheviks, no, Lenin wanted the civil war. I mean, he argued straight out. He said the civil war is the sharpest form of class conflict, which is exactly what he wanted. He was the only way in his view for the Bolsheviks to take power.

你认为列宁主义者在他们发动政变后，能否采取不同的策略，防止内战的爆发？内战的爆发真的是不可避免的吗？列宁主义者，或者说列宁本人，想要发动内战。我是说，他直截了当地提出这一观点。他认为内战是阶级冲突的最尖锐形式，这正是他所追求的。在他看来，内战是列宁主义者夺取政权的唯一途径。

He knew that by, and this is where the other socialist party is, you know, the socialist revolution is the mention of it, were horrified by his plans because they knew that after he had smashed the cadets, the liberals and conserved to parties, he would turn on them and he certainly did. Even the left socialist revolutionists who split away from the main part of the socialist revolutionary party, even they joined the Bolshevik government, surely because they thought that Lenin was going to implement the land reforms which they had advocated themselves.

他知道，在另一个社会主义党那里，也就是提到社会主义革命的地方，他的计划会遭到惊恐，因为他们知道在他打败自由民主党和保守派党派后，他会转向他们，而他确实做到了。即使是分离于社会革命党主要派别的左翼社会革命家，他们也加入了布尔什维克政府，肯定是因为他们认为列宁将实施他们自己提倡的土地改革。

Well, this was just a cover tactic on Lenin's party. He said, I'm, he announced that he was pinching all of their ideas, which they welcomed. But then of course, there's not going to do anything about it. And eventually they then turned against him and reverted in the following year until they were crushed as well. So there was no question about it. Lenin despised anybody who disagreed with him, even within its ratio, within his own party. The, truly, say, the less extreme members who warned against this complete seizure of power, this total dictatorship, which Lenin was planning. You know, they were either more as rejected from the party or sort of kept in a, kept in the sort of subservient position.

这只是列宁党的一种掩盖策略。他声称自己借鉴了他们的想法，他们欣然接受了。但当然，他们也不会采取任何行动。最终，他们反对了列宁，一年后也被镇压了。没有什么可说的，列宁鄙视任何持不同意见的人，即使是在党内。那些较为温和的成员曾警告过他，对完全掌权和独裁的计划提出了质疑。他们要么被排除在党外，要么被保持在从属的地位。

As soon as we got well into 1918 when Lenin's arguments over the whole question of the agreement was Germany, the Brechtleys Tosk Treaty. And that of course is when the left-right socialist revolution is realized that they've been tricked and were so dissatisfied and angry.

1918年初，当列宁就关于与德国的布列斯特和约问题进行辩论时，不久我们就深入其中。当然，这是左右社会主义革命认识到他们被愚弄、非常不满和愤怒的时候。

What was striking was how little resistance there was in the February revolution. Basically, everybody, it was so angry and exasperated with the total incompetence of the war effort, with a lot of the corruption back in Moscow and in Petrograd, that, you know, they just simply didn't even bother to lift a finger. And there was no organized opposition whatsoever.

引人注目的是，二月革命中几乎没有任何抵抗。基本上，每个人都对战争努力的完全无能以及莫斯科和彼得格勒的许多腐败感到非常愤怒和恼怒，以至于他们甚至不费一点力气。而且完全没有组织起来的反对势力。

The opposition to the regime, Lenin started to come about when I say to the regime, but to the provisional government. And you started coming about when Alexander Kurenski was the prime minister and was sort of living in a fantasy world. And the generals led by General Kornilov, certain generals, they're by General Kornilov, started to become exactly the thing we've got to reintroduce the death penalty, which had been abolished. The simply to make sure that the soldiers stay there because they just tried this attempted, this disastrous offensive in the summer, in on the southwest front against the Germans, which led to virtually the collapse of the Tsarist army there.

反对政权的声音开始出现，当我说的不是反对政权，而是反对临时政府。当亚历山大·库伦斯基担任首相并陷入幻想世界时，你开始产生这种情况。由科尼洛夫将军领导的某些将军开始变得非常严厉，他们要重新引入废除的死刑，只是为了确保士兵留在那里，因为他们刚刚在今年夏天在东南部前线对德国人进行了这次灾难性的攻势，这导致沙皇军队几乎在那里崩溃。

And this frustration did start to create the first hints possibly of a coup, not led by General Kornilov, funny enough. I mean, the Kornilov whole thing, which actually provided the Bolsheviks with their real opportunity that summer, was a result of a major misunderstanding. And it was largely Kurenski's fault. It was also Kornilov was not a very intelligent man. And there was a complete misunderstanding between the two of them.

这种沮丧情绪或许已经成为了政变的第一个眉目，尽管这个政变不是由科尔尼洛夫将军领导的，有点滑稽。我指的是，科尔尼洛夫整个事件实际上为那个夏天的布尔什维克人提供了真正的机会，这是一个重大误解的结果。而这很大程度上是库伦斯基的过错。同时科尔尼洛夫也不是一个非常聪明的人，他们两个之间存在着完全的误解。

Kurenski believed that Kornilov was going to try and overthrow the provisional government and seize power himself, which was not true. And Kornilov had been talked to by a complete fantasist, quote, law of not the principle of the provisional government, but another one, who had tried to persuade him that he was the one who should seize power, and that Kurenski wanted him to cease power. And this led to not just from misunderstanding, but the whole of the collapse of this Kornilov affair, meant that the communists were in a position really to start infiltrating the key areas of the security services and a whole of other things, which put them in a very, very good stead, ready for their coup when it eventually came.

库伦斯基认为科尔尼洛夫将试图推翻临时政府并掌权，但事实并非如此。而科尔尼洛夫曾经被一个完全的幻想家所说服，该幻想家声称他不是按照临时政府原则行事的法律，而是另一个法律，试图说服科尔尼洛夫成为掌权者，并声称库伦斯基想让他掌权。这不仅导致了误解，还导致科尔尼洛夫事件的整个崩溃，这意味着共产主义者有机会开始渗透到安全机构等关键领域，以及其他一些事情，这使得他们非常有准备，准备迎接他们最终的政变。

But even then, Lenin was about the only one within the Bolshevik party who actually believed that the coup was possible. Even Trotsky was nervous. What Lenin perceived, and he was absolutely right, was that the success of a coup depends on the apathy of the majority, not on how many people you had real supporters. Because Trotsky estimated that within the garrison, the huge garrison in around, in and around Petrograd, there were probably a couple of thousand who were actually Bolshevik supporters when there were about 140,000 who weren't, but they weren't prepared to do anything to save the provisional government. But that was all the Bolsheviks needed. Though with a tiny minority, they were actually able to seize power.

即便如此，在布尔什维克党内，列宁几乎是唯一一个真正相信政变可能成功的。而甚至特罗tsky也感到紧张。列宁所意识到，而且他是完全正确的，政变的成功取决于大多数人的冷漠，而不是你真正支持者的人数。特罗tsky估计，在彼得罗格勒及周边地区的巨大守卫队中，只有几千人是真正的布尔什维克支持者，在14万人中占少数，但他们不愿为了挽救临时政府而采取任何行动。不过这正是布尔什维克所需要的，尽管只有少数人，他们仍然能够夺取权力。

And how important to the outcome of the war was the fragmentation and disunity of the whites compared to the centralization and unity of the Bolsheviks? Very important point, absolutely essential to the understanding of the war.

在战争的结局中，与白军的分裂和不团结相比，布尔什维克的集中和团结有多重要？这是一个非常重要的问题，对于理解战争是绝对必要的。

The trouble with the whites was that they, when one talks to the whites, one long-term actually refers to mainly the forces led by former generals and commanders from the First World War, from the Saurist Army. But there were also the various socialist revolutionaries who are pulled by the dictatorship, which has been created in Petrograd, and the way that the constituent assembly had been disbanded.

白军的问题在于，当我们与白人交谈时，一般指的是由第一次世界大战中萨乌尔陆军的前将军和指挥官的力量。但还有一些社会主义的革命者被独裁统治所吸引，这是在彼得格勒创造出来的，并且还有宪法制定会被解散的方式。

And they set up, in, for example, in the sort of Vavolga region at Samara, there was a Komoch which was basically supporters for the from the socialist revolution, supporters of the constituent assembly. And they made an uneasy alliance with groups of white officers in that particular area. And there was always going to be tension right from the start, because most of these officers were anti-Semitic, there were many Jews in the socialist revolutionaries and the other socialist parties. They wanted to bring back shoulder boards, they also wanted to bring back the punishments of the Saurist Army, which meant they could punch soldiers in the face on a summary charge that they could even have the whipping of soldiers with using rifle cleaning rods and things like that. And all the worst aspects, if you like, of the Saurist Army. And of course, this created a terrible tension the whole time.

在沙马拉的伏尔加河地区，他们成立了一些组织，例如Komoch，这是社会主义革命支持者和制宪会议支持者的基本组织。在该地区，他们与一些白卫军官团结成联盟，但一开始就存在紧张关系，因为这些军官大多反犹太主义，而社会主义革命派和其他社会党派都有很多犹太人。他们想要恢复肩章的使用，还想要恢复萨尔军的惩罚方式，这意味着他们可以根据简要指控对士兵进行殴打，甚至使用步枪清洁棒鞭打士兵等。这些都是萨尔军的最糟糕的方面。当然，这一切都制造了可怕的紧张气氛。

And once all this particular in Siberia, where, where, but not just at Samara, but then later, Ulfa, when they tried to get a conference says to bring together this extraordinary amalgam, or basically Siberian Cosac hosts, with the Samara, Komuch, the liberal and social democrats, when obviously the two were completely incompatible. And in the south, there you had, shall we say, an uneasy alliance again between the Don Cosacs and, say, later the Kuwaiting Cosacs and the white officers, who basically distrusted the Cosacs as they thought the Cosacs were not prepared to believe in a greater, in the greater Russia or in the all Russia, that they believed in.

在西伯利亚，他们试图召开一场会议，将具有特殊背景的人聚集在一起，包括西伯利亚哥萨克人、萨马拉、科姆奇自由派和社会民主派。显然，这两个群体是完全不兼容的。在南部，顿河哥萨克和后来的库瓦伊特哥萨克以及白军官员之间再次形成了不稳定的联盟。这些白军官员基本上不信任哥萨克人，认为哥萨克人不相信一个更伟大、更大的俄罗斯国家，而仅仅相信那些他们所信仰的东西。

But they wanted, they saw them as separate ships basically, that they wanted to have their own sort of Cosac Federation. And the fundamental problem, especially when it came to the whites and their relationship, not just with the Allies, but above all, with possible allies like the Finns under Marshall Manaheim, who had was winning the Finnish Civil War at this particular time of, in the early part of 1918. But also the Estonians and the Baltic states, and the Poles later on with Marshall Pysodsky, because if they had combined, they could well have defeated the Communists, I mean, right down the whole of that Western Frontier, from Finland all the way down through to Ukraine and the Donbass and the Don area.

他们希望把它们视为两条独立的船，他们希望有他们自己的Cosac联邦。尤其是当涉及到白人及其与盟国的关系，但最重要的是与潜在盟友——马纳海姆将军领导下的芬兰人的关系时，出现了根本性的问题，在1918年早期的芬兰内战中，他已经赢了这场 战斗。但也包括爱沙尼亚和波罗的海国家以及后来的波兰，与皮索茨基将军一起，因为如果他们联合起来，他们很可能会击败共产主义者，我指的是从芬兰一直到乌克兰、唐巴斯和唐区域的整个西部边境。

There they were in a tremendous advantage and they had trained troops, who were extremely effective. But so the political aspect, the political disunity and the arrogance of the white generals and the way that they treated, whether the Finns or the Estonians or whatever, basically telling them they were still part of the Russian Empire. And so as a result, all of the nationalist aspirations of these border states were insulted and basically treated in a very, very stupid way, which actually made the white cause deeply unpopular, almost as unpopular, as there are polling social policies towards the peasants.

在那里，他们拥有极大的优势，拥有受过训练的部队，非常有效。但是政治方面的分歧、白人将军的傲慢和对芬兰人、爱沙尼亚人等的态度，基本上告诉他们他们仍然是俄罗斯帝国的一部分。因此，所有这些边境国家的民族主义愿望都受到了侮辱，并且基本上被非常愚蠢地处理，这实际上使得白色事业深受不受欢迎，几乎和对农民的民情调查社会政策一样不受欢迎。

I mean, as far as they were concerned, certainly for the Tsarists, they wanted to have all their land back from the peasants, which was something which of course was going to create a tremendous hatred and fear amongst all of those peasants who had profited from them. And so as a result, there was almost continual war, they had no proper administration. All they were interested in was basically getting what they could from these local areas and the food which they did not pay for in many cases or paid that in little four. So their own rear areas were always going to be open to resistance groups, particularly if one thinks of again, all of this area, basically east of the Nipa, the area we're looking at now, these very day in our newspapers, when for example the great anarchist leader, Makhna and Nesta Makhna, raised armies which first of all fought the whites when they were there, but he also hated the rids for their dictatorship and cruelty. As a result, you know, you have this almost triangular war going on in all of that area of eastern of eastern Ukraine.

我的意思是，在他们看来，特别是对沙皇党人而言，他们希望从农民手里夺回所有的土地，这当然会在所有受益于这些土地的农民中引起极大的仇恨和恐惧。因此，结果是几乎不间断的战争，他们没有适当的行政管理。他们感兴趣的只是从这些地区获取他们所能得到的食物，而许多情况下他们没有付款或付了很少的钱。因此，他们自己的后方总是容易遭受抵抗组织的攻击，特别是如果考虑到所有这一区域，基本上在涅派河以东，我们现在正在关注的区域，在我们的报纸上，例如伟大的无政府主义领袖马赫纳和内斯塔·马赫纳筹集了军队，首先与白军作战，但他也憎恶里德斯的专制和残忍。因此，在整个乌克兰东部地区几乎呈现出三角形战争的局面。

In your last answer, briefly referred to the involvement of international powers in this conflict and many of the great powers of Europe did line up on the side of the white army. How was it that they weren't able to shift the outcome of the conflict? Did they just, as involved as they needed to be? Were they not as sincere about their commitment? The commitment was, should we say, unclear and this was always a problem. They couldn't make up their in-mind.

在你上一个回答中，简要提到了国际势力在这场冲突中的参与，许多欧洲大国都站在白军这边。他们为什么无法改变冲突的结果？他们只是参与了必要的程度吗？他们对自己的承诺不够诚恳吗？承诺是模糊的，这一直是个问题。他们无法下定决心。

One has to remember that the Supreme Allied Council in Paris during this particular period of 1918, they were trying to sort out the whole world almost, which was an impossible task at that particular time. Now, when in the early part of 1918, President Woodrow Wilson thought that they might be able to somehow create some form of peace in Russia. He suggested a conference in the islands of Pinkippo in the Sea of Marmara, close to Constantinople, but the whites were so furious at the reds and what had happened of the murders of the aristocracy, the destruction and everything like that. But they refused to sit down with the reds and Lenin and the Bolsheviks had no intention at that stage. They thought they were going to win and had no intention really of taking part themselves. And this gave Churchill his thoughts, his great opportunity, because they had agreed that there would be a certain amount of help to the white cause in terms of providing weaponry.

我们必须记住，在1918年的这一特定时期，巴黎的最高盟军理事会试图对几乎整个世界进行整理，这几乎是不可能的任务。然而，在1918年初，伍德罗·威尔逊总统认为他们或许能够在俄罗斯创造出某种形式的和平。他建议在马尔马拉海的平基波群岛举行一次会议，靠近君士坦丁堡，但是白军对红军愤怒不已，对于贵族的谋杀、破坏等一切事情感到非常愤怒。他们拒绝与红军坐下来谈判，而列宁和布尔什维克当时也没有参加的意向。这为丘吉尔提供了思路和机会，因为他们同意提供一定数量的武器帮助白军。

Now, you can provide weapons and you can provide supplies. You've got to be able to get them there first and they weren't able to get until the First World War came to an end in in November 1918. They didn't have access through the Daughter Nells and they couldn't therefore supply the Cossacks and Denikin's White Armies in the south of Russia. The first sort of supplies were able to come in through the North through Mermonts where the British already had a base and a archangel with some Marines who'd been landed earlier on at the beginning of 1917 and 182 protect the supplies which would be delivered there which were afraid that the Germans from the finish of the war might take over. So there was again a sort of curious triangle of conflict right up in the North.

现在，你可以提供武器和物资。但首先你必须确保它们能到达那里，在第一次世界大战于1918年11月结束之前，他们无法做到这一点。他们无法通过女儿尼尔斯获得进入，因此无法向俄国南部的哥萨克和德尼金的白军提供物资。最初的物资通过北部的默蒙特斯进入，英军早在1917年初就在那里建立了基地并派驻了一些海军陆战队，他们保护着将要运送到那里的物资，因为他们担心战争结束后的德国人会接管这些物资。因此，在北方出现了一种奇特的冲突三角形。

And then of course in the Far East you have and this is terribly important again from the future. This rivalry between America and Japan, Japan of course was one of our allies towards the end of the First World War and so the Japanese were starting to land huge numbers of troops. I mean at one stage they had almost 70,000 troops in Siberia and the Americans of course were extremely anxious about this. They sent in place into about the equivalent of a small division of troops as part of an expeditionary force. The British landed in a couple of battalions, the middle sector regiment and hamcher regiment eventually, but there were also Italians who were Serbs who were Greeks and then the French of course in when they came into Odessa and into the Black Sea.

当然，在远东地区，美国和日本之间的竞争也非常重要，这对未来尤其重要。日本在一战结束时是我们的盟友之一，因此他们开始派遣大量的部队。有一段时间他们在西伯利亚派驻了近70,000名士兵，当然美国人非常担心这个问题。为了作为远征军的一部分，他们派遣了一个等同于小师的部队。英国派遣了几个营，中间部队和汉切尔团最终登陆，此外还有意大利人、塞尔维亚人、希腊人以及法国人在奥德萨和黑海进入时也参与了其中。

You had quite a large French force which actually proved to be a disaster because so many of their troops after the mutinies of 1917 following the New Vella offensive from the First World War were politicized and were much more sympathetic towards the Bolsheviks than they were towards their own officers. And this proved with the mutiny of the Black Sea fleet proved a tremendous blow to French pride and morale.

您拥有相当大的法国军队，实际上，这证明是一场灾难，因为在第一次世界大战新维拉进攻之后的1917年暴动后，他们的许多部队被政治化，对布尔什维克比自己的军官更有同情心。这证明了黑海舰队的叛变对法国的自尊心和士气造成了极大的打击。

And there were also tensions between the French and the British even though they were allies where the British were supporting if you like the Cossacks and Denikin over in the Caucasus and the Donbass region while the French were concentrating around Odessa. So you'd again, this is where one starts to have that's proxy war of the 20th century.

尽管法国和英国是盟友，但他们之间也存在紧张关系。英国支持高加索地区和顿巴斯地区的哥萨克人和德尼金，而法国则集中于奥德萨地区。这就是20世纪代理战争的开始。

No, so was there a particular battle or campaign that was decisive in the Red's ultimate victory or did the White campaign essentially fizzle out in the end? The interesting thing is when you're talking about Stravace, Lannmasse of Russia, you can have huge advances which would then collapse suddenly.

那么，是有一场特定的战斗或战役在红军最终胜利中起了决定性的作用，还是白军的战役基本上在最后减弱了呢？有趣的是，当谈到俄罗斯的斯特拉瓦斯和兰马斯时，你可以有巨大的进步，然后突然崩溃。

The whole idea, the critical mass, the whole idea that you would suddenly lose momentum because the supplies weren't getting through and then you'd have to retreat and as soon as you were retreating then suddenly it would swing back in the other direction. The Reds had this huge advantage of internal lines. They were based really in one of the most populous areas of central Western Russia between basically, you know, between the Volga, between the Volga and the, sort of roughly in the Periut Frontier.

整个想法，关键的问题是，你可能会因为补给物资没有到达而突然失去动力，然后你不得不撤退，一旦你开始撤退，那么局势就会突然朝着另一个方向变化。红军拥有内线优势。他们基本上驻扎在俄罗斯中西部人口最多的地区之一，位于伏尔加河和佩里约夫边境之间。

But they also had the population with some of the largest cities, particularly in the north and many of the factories and particularly the arms factories. The whites of course did have a huge advantage, something in the sheer delivery of all of the surplus ammunition guns, artillery, machine guns, rifles, etc. which made up for the lack of factories and also lack of pre-literate or factory workers, you know, to build the sort of things that they needed.

然而，他们也有一些最大城市中的人口，特别是在北部和许多工厂中，特别是武器工厂。当然，白人有巨大的优势，即在枪弹、火炮、机枪、步枪等方面大量生产，这弥补了缺乏工厂和文盲或工厂工人的不足，从而建造所需的东西。

But that question of internal lines was incredibly important especially when it came to the crucial moments. I mean, there were moments when the Bolsheviks themselves thought that they'd lost the civil war and almost were preparing to abandon Moscow. And for example, there was the southern advance of Kolchak's troops right all the way back towards the Volga in very early 1918-1919.

但是内部线路的问题尤其在关键时刻非常重要。我指的是那些时刻，甚至布尔什维克自己都认为他们已经输掉了内战，几乎准备放弃莫斯科。例如，1918年初至1919年，科尔恰克的部队向南进攻，一路回到伏尔加河。

Meanwhile, the trouble was that the great advance of Denikin from the South in 1919 did not coincide. The Kolchak's advance had petered out, in fact they were in full retreat by the time that the march on Moscow, which Denikin called on in the early summer of 1919, had started. And the advance went well, but they swarmed up towards Moscow and again there were moments when Trotsky and others really thought that this might be it.

同时，问题在于1919年南方的德尼金（Denikin）大举进攻并未协调。而科尔恰克的攻势已经告吹，事实上，当德尼金在1919年初夏召集人马进攻莫斯科时，科尔恰克的军队已经全线溃败。虽然德尼金的进攻进展顺利，但当他们向莫斯科涌去时，特洛茨基等人曾经有过真正认为这次可能成功的时刻。

But what they had managed to do in fact was that the Red Army had concentrated its troops from the South, the previous, at the end of the previous year against the Eastern Front, against Kolchak's troops in Siberia and pushed them back. And this actually was what saved them in a way because although they lost a huge amount of ground to begin with the following year when Denikin advanced, by the very fact that they had no longer had to worry about Kolchak's troops to the Eastern Siberia, they were able to reinforce the troops and turn it around and in October 1919 once saw this complete turnaround. This was the final turning point if you like in the war. Churchill couldn't believe what had happened.

但他们实际上所做的是，红军将其南方的军队集中到了前一年末针对东线，对抗西伯利亚的科尔恰克部队并将其击退。事实上，这在某种程度上是拯救了他们，因为尽管他们在接下来的一年中失去了大量领土，当德尼金前进时，由于他们不再担心科尔恰克在东伯利亚的部队，他们能够加强军队并扭转局面，在1919年10月首次看到了这种彻底的扭转。如果你愿意，这是战争的最终转折点。丘吉尔无法相信发生了什么。

I mean he was sending these signals the whole time to General Homan who was the commander of the Rishmila Tremision saying, I can't believe this, what's happened? You know there they are well, you read through in full retreat and now suddenly they seem to be beating them but whites on every front, what's happened? And he'd failed to understand that actually it was purely because they had reinforced that Eastern Front at a crucial moment. And then again with the advantages of their internal lines, we know to bring them back very rapidly to transform the whole situation.

我是说他一直在向负责Rishmila Tremision的将军霍曼发出这些信号，说“我简直不敢相信这已经发生了，你知道他们已经败退了，现在却突然间似乎在四面八方打败了他们，发生了什么事情？”但是他没有意识到这实际上纯粹是因为他们在关键时刻加强了东线前线。然后再次利用内部线路优势，我们知道可以迅速将他们带回来，从而改变整个局势。

One man we haven't talked about huge amount so far is Joseph Stalin. And I know that over the years his supporters and detractors have either sought to build up or downplay his role in the revolution in civil war. From your point of view how important to figure was he at this stage?

到目前为止，我们还没有大量讨论的人物是约瑟夫·斯大林。我知道多年来，他的支持者和反对者要么试图夸大他在革命和内战中的作用，要么试图淡化他的作用。在您看来，他在这个阶段的地位有多重要呢？

Well he was an important figure from the point of view of what the future held. I.e. the alliances that he made within the party were actually what brought him to part, James Pirate. He made a closer alliance with Chazinsky, the head of the Czecha. Interestingly both of them had been studied to be priests and then termed fissiously against religion in his all of its form. And he also made alliances with the first cavalry army. And this was started at Zarin Seen, which later became Stalin grad named after him.

从未来的角度来看，他是一个重要的人物。他与党内建立的联盟实际上是将他带入政治中心的原因。他与Czecha的领袖Chazinsky建立了更亲密的联盟。有趣的是，他们两个都曾计划成为神职人员，但最终反对并排斥了宗教。他还与第一骑兵军团建立了联盟。这一切始于Zarin Seen，后来被命名为斯大林格勒。

Now a lot of this of course was sort of a fuhrib, myths later on or part of the whole of the cult of personality which Stalin developed. He was a commissar, basically a political commissar who then sort of portrayed himself as a military leader. And he did then play a critical but probably the Sarada disastrous role in the invasion of Poland in 1920. Because Stalin refused to follow orders and General Tukachevsky later the famous marshal who was the court of one of the first people killed by Stalin in the purchase of the Red Army in the 1930s. So ordered the southern front to come to the north and to stop trying to create their own area of view like of operations towards Lviv, as it is not. And Stalin, as I say, flagrantly disabaid orders. Despite Trotsky's instructions and all the risks of it. And he often was therefore blamed by Tukachevsky and many others for the disaster which befell the Red Army in the battle of the vestular, the battle before before Warsaw.

现在，当然有很多是鲜为人知的，后来成了神话或者是斯大林个人崇拜的整个一部分。他原本是一名政治委员，基本上是一个政治指导员，后来将自己描绘成一位军事领袖。他在1920年波兰入侵中发挥了至关重要（但很可能是灾难性的）作用。因为斯大林拒绝服从命令，而后被斯大林在1930年代的红军大清洗中杀害的著名元帅图卡切夫斯基将军下令南方的前线向北移动，停止试图在利沃夫建立自己的作战区域。正如我所说，斯大林公然违抗命令，尽管有托洛茨基的指示和所有风险。因此，他经常被图卡切夫斯基和许多其他人责备，因为红军在华沙前的韦斯特勒战役中遭受了灾难。

When Trotsky took this tremendous risk, it was a brilliant one of cutting off all of the armies in the north and basically breaking the back of the Red Army for some time. Stalin only managed to get away with it, I think, by sheer brass neck when you were someone back to Moscow to sort of explain. And he was pushed sideways for a bit. But the point was that having made his particular sort of contacts within the party and the way that of course he was despised is basically as an uncultured pop-marked gangster and despised by Trotsky and the others who were much more intellectuals. This sort of bitterness was going to come out very much later, as he started to, immediately after Lenin's death or in fact even during Lenin's serious illness, Stalin was going to be the one who would emerge.

当托洛茨基冒险采取这个惊人的行动时，他成功地切断了北方所有的军队，基本上打击了红军的实力。我认为，只是靠着强硬的态度，斯大林才得以应对，并将其解释给回到莫斯科的人们听。他被旁敲侧击了一段时间。但重点是，斯大林在党内建立了特定的联系方式，当然，他一直被视为一个文化程度低、充满痘痘的歹徒，并被托洛茨基和其他智者所鄙视。这种仇恨最终会在后来显露出来，随着他在列宁去世后不久，或者说甚至在列宁身患重病期间崛起。

Having seized the levers of power without the others realizing because they had despised it. You should never underestimate somebody, but he was in a position eventually to take those levers of power a bit by bit until he had to complete control. And this was very much what Stalin did. So once the civil war, Russian civil war is eventually over and it's led to huge loss of life, huge destruction, was Russia really on its knees at this point? Oh yeah, it was starving. I mean it was actually the American relief program. I mean to begin with Lenin refused this idea that they should seek help abroad. But I mean there were appalling famines all down the Volga, those, a lot of the black earth area. And this was because of the way that the peasants had revoted against the the food detachment sent out. These were communists from the cities sent out to extract the food and they would just seize the seed corn as well for the next year. So the harvests were totally disastrous. And I mean there was cannibalism in many areas in the Siberia too, particularly in in Western Siberia. And then the suffering was simply appalling. And this is actually what Gorky had warned about right from the start when he tried to warn the Russian people, you know, that this is where Lenin is leaving.

在其他人轻视的情况下，他夺取了权力的杠杆。你永远不应低估某个人，但他最终能够逐渐夺取这些权力杠杆，直到他完全掌控。这正是斯大林所做的。因此，一旦俄罗斯内战结束，导致了巨大的人员伤亡和毁灭，俄罗斯真的处于崩溃边缘吗？是的，它正在挨饿。我的意思是，它实际上是美国的救济计划。开始时，列宁拒绝了寻求海外援助的想法。但我的意思是，伏尔加河沿岸地区有可怕的饥荒，还有很多黑土地区。这是因为农民反对从城市派遣出来的食品分遣队。这些是共产主义者，他们将接下来的种子玉米也抢走了。因此，收成非常灾难性。我的意思是，在西伯利亚的许多地区，特别是在西伯利亚西部，也有食人现象。然后，苦难非常可怕。这实际上是戈尔基从一开始就试图警告俄罗斯人民的地方，你知道，这就是列宁离开的地方。

What was the reaction around the world to communist victory in the civil war? How concerned were the Western powers by the triumph of the Lenin in the Bolsheviks? I think they were greatly perturbed to Timahla, I mean just looking at the British. One has to remember that at the end of the First World War there was considerable problems of obviously getting demobilizing the British army, which was huge by that stage. And I mean the mutinists, large mutinists in France. We didn't suffer the mutinists at the French army, it suffered which was actually during the war like the ones after the New Evel offensive.

在中国内战中共产党的胜利引起了全球范围内的反响。西方大国对列宁和布尔什维克的胜利有多担忧？我认为他们非常不安，就拿英国来说吧。我们必须记住，在第一次世界大战结束时，显然有很多问题需要解决，比如大规模裁军英国军队，此时英军规模已经相当大了。还有我指的是法国发生的大规模兵变事件。我们没有经历法国军队的士兵叛变，而是发生在战争期间，如新欧洲战役之后的事件。

But the were serious ones and at one particular point, you know Churchill and General Wilson, the chief of the general staff, considered the British democracy was basically basically on the knife edge at that particular point. What the great split in a way was really between Lloyd George and Churchill. Churchill felt that we had to defeat the Bolsheviks so as to prevent the disease spreading. The Lloyd George was arguing if we spend all this money on supporting the whites in Russia, we're going to have a Bolshevik revolution here. So they were looking at the same problem but from totally different points of view.

但这是一个严肃的问题，尤其在某个特定的时刻，你知道丘吉尔和陆军总参谋长威尔逊将军，认为英国的民主政体处于危急的境地。在某种程度上，这场大分裂实际上是在劳合·乔治和丘吉尔之间展开的。丘吉尔认为我们必须打败布尔什维克，以防止病菌扩散。而劳合·乔治则认为，如果我们花费所有的钱去支持俄罗斯的白军，我们就会在这里发生布尔什维克革命。所以他们从完全不同的角度看待同一个问题。

Now quite a few times in the course of this conversation, you've alluded to the fact that some of the places being fought over then have been fought over again recently in the Russia, Ukraine war. But how far do you think the Civil War does prefigure the events of today or actually is it not really a sensible parallel to be making? I don't think we're going to make too many parallels at all. There are lots of superficial parallels that one can make. I mean for example, I think one of the most important ones was that we never expected Putin to invade partly because rather like in the late 1930s and say the time of Munich, the British and the French could not believe after the horrors of the First World War that anyone would ever want another World War or another battle in that particular way. They've totally failed to understand that Hitler was determined to have a war and in fact was angry that Chamberlain had given in at Munich and he'd been deprived of his war against Chukus Vartia. Now this is the thing, we always fail to understand dictators, this is the problem. Dictators didn't think like generals. One could put oneself into the boots of a general and get a rough idea of how they see things but it's very very different. But to go back to the Russian Civil War, there one has to see among the concede the way that in fact this was really the moment when Ukraine was starting to develop a more modern nationalism. Now this was very much more a nationalism coming from intellectuals. There was already a Ukrainian culture in the countryside, in the poetry and in a lot of the literature but then there was Peclerus and with the Ukrainian Radar. There they really did want to take Ukraine forward to create a completely different state and they've been given the opportunity, this is what Putin has been raging about, it was Lenin who almost gave away Ukraine at that particular stage. Rather like with Finland at the Bolsheviks, thought that there was going to be no trouble about allowing a certain amount of autonomy or independence to these former nation states of the Russian Empire because the world revolution would bring them back under control and that's where they made the great mistake. That was Anthony Beaver, Russia, revolution and civil war 1917 to 1921 is out now published by Widenfeld in Nicholson. You can read a version of this interview in the July issue of BBC History magazine which will be in the shops in the UK from the 9th of June. Thanks for listening, this podcast was produced by Daniel Kramer Arden.

在这次谈话的过程中，你多次提到一些当时争夺的地方最近在俄罗斯-乌克兰战争中再次发生了争夺。你认为内战在多大程度上预示了今天的事件，或者说这种类比并不明智？我认为我们不会做出太多类比。有很多表面上的类比可以做出，例如，我认为最重要的一点是我们从未预料到普京会入侵，部分原因是因为像在二十世纪三, 四十年代的慕尼黑时期一样，英国和法国无法相信在第一次世界大战的恐怖之后，会有人再想要另一场世界大战或另一场类似的战斗。他们完全没有理解到希特勒决心要打一场战争，而且他因为钦点在慕尼黑投降了而感到愤怒，并且被剥夺了对捷克斯洛伐克的战争。现在这是问题所在，我们总是无法理解独裁者。独裁者不像将军那样思考。你可以设身处地地站在将军的立场上，大概了解他们的想法，但实际上非常非常不同。但是，回到俄国内战，人们必须看到在那里，乌克兰开始发展更现代的民族主义。现在，这更多的是来自知识分子的民族主义。在乡下已经有乌克兰文化，诗歌和许多文学作品，但是现在有了Peclerus和乌克兰雷达。他们真的想把乌克兰推向前进，创建一个完全不同的国家，他们得到了这个机会，这就是普京一直在愤怒的事情，那时列宁几乎把乌克兰送了出去。就像在芬兰问题上，布尔什维克认为允许这些前俄罗斯帝国的民族国家拥有一定的自治权或独立权不会有麻烦，因为世界革命会将他们带回控制之下，他们犯了巨大的错误。那就是安东尼·比弗，莱文，革命和内战1917年至1921年由威登菲尔德和尼科尔森出版，欢迎收听，这个播客由丹尼尔·克莱默·阿尔登制作。