Treasure, heritage & returning artefacts

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast, fascinating historical conversations from BBC History Magazine and BBC History Revealed.

欢迎来到历史额外播客，这里有来自BBC历史杂志和BBC历史揭示的迷人历史对话。

Headlines have been made recently by proposed changes to the Treasure Act in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which would see more historical and archaeological artifacts defined as treasure and could help museums to acquire more important items.

最近，英格兰、威尔士和北爱尔兰提议修改宝藏法案，这将使更多的历史和考古文物被定义为宝藏，并有助于博物馆获得更重要的物品，这一提议引起了广泛关注。

Lord Parkinson is a British Conservative member of the House of Lords, who currently serves as parliamentary undersecretary of state for arts and heritage in the UK. He spoke to Matt Elton about the thinking behind the proposals and some of the issues facing heritage in the UK.

派金森勋爵是英国保守党的一位众议院议员，目前担任英国艺术和遗产下议院的议会国务次卿。他与马特·埃尔顿谈论了这些提案的思路以及英国文化遗产面临的一些问题。

So I'm joined today by Lord Parkinson, parliamentary undersecretary of state for arts and heritage to talk through some of the recent developments I suppose in the heritage sector.

今天我很高兴邀请艺术和文化遗产的国会助理大臣帕金森勋爵加入我们，一起探讨近期遗产领域的一些发展。

First of all we should talk about the changes to the Treasure Act here in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and we'll get on to the specifics in a minute. For people who might not have heard what changed and what does it mean?

首先，我们应该谈谈在英格兰、威尔士和北爱尔兰的宝藏法中所做的改变，接下来我们将很快详细说明。对于那些可能没有听说过改变的人，它意味着什么？

Well the Treasure Act has been around for just over 25 years, we celebrated its 25th anniversary last year, I love an anniversary as Heritage Minister. And in that time it has saved hundreds of objects for museums and public collections around the country, but the definition is quite specific at the moment of what constitutes treasure.

这个“宝藏法案”已经存在了25年以上，去年我们庆祝了它的25周年，作为文化遗产部长，我很喜欢庆祝周年纪念日。在这段时间里，它为全国的博物馆和公共藏品保存了数百个物品，但目前对宝藏的定义是非常明确的。

Items have to be a precious metal and they have to be over 300 years old. And that means that some items like the Roman Helm is that was found in cross-begarit in Cumbria, which are made of other metals fall through the net.

物品必须是贵重金属，并且超过300年的年龄。这意味着一些物品（例如在坎布里亚的克罗斯-贝加里特发现的罗马头盔）是由其他金属制成的，就会被排除在外。

And we want to make sure there's been such an increase in metal detecting, thanks to TV programs and the great coverage that people's discoveries always get. We want to make sure that the items that people find are covered by that definition so that they can be saved for museums and collections around the country.

我们想确保金属探测器的使用量增加了，这要归功于电视节目和人们的发现常常得到的广泛报道。我们希望确保人们发现的物品符合这个定义，以便它们可以保存到全国各地的博物馆和收藏品中。

So we are proposing to change the definition, we've laid it before Parliament and both houses will have the chance to say whether they agree. Our proposal is to bring it down to 200 years to say that items could be made of any type of metal, but also to bring in a new significance test.

所以我们建议更改定义，我们已经向议会提出了建议，两院都将有机会说出他们是否同意。我们的建议是把它缩短到200年，并且说物品可以由任何类型的金属制成，但也引入了新的重要性测试。

So if an item is significant because it sheds particular light on an individual or a particular event from the past, then it could be saved that way. And one of the lovely things about the treasure process is often items end up in museums or collections very close to where they were found, which means that the people that found them can be part of that story and see it proudly on display, inspiring people in their hometowns and villages.

如果一件物品之所以重要，是因为它能够清晰地展现一个特定的个体或着一个过去的特定事件，那么这个物品就可以因其重要性而被保留下来。在探宝过程中，其中一个美好之处就是这些物品往往能够被保存在非常靠近它们被发现的地方的博物馆或收藏品中，这意味着找到这些物品的人可以成为整个故事的一部分，并且能够自豪地看到它们展示在那里，感染当地人们和村庄里的人们。

So one of the hopes for this change, this kind of a post change, is that artifacts will end up in museums rather than in private collections, is that right?

所以，这种改变的希望之一，就是文物最终会被展出在博物馆，而不是被私人收藏，是这样吗？

Yes, at the moment, if they don't meet the criteria, then they can be sold on the open market and sometimes private collectors very generously lend items to museums, but there's no automatic process for that happening. If they're defined as treasure, then museums get the opportunity to acquire them. And the people that find them and the landowners are eligible for a reward, so they're compensated for the discovery they've made, but they end up in a museum where they can inspire and educate people for generations to come.

目前来看，如果某些古物未能符合标准，它们可以在公开市场上进行销售，有时私人收藏家也会很慷慨地把这些物品借给博物馆，但是这并不是自动发生的过程。如果这些古物被定义为宝藏，那么博物馆有机会收购它们。这些发现它们并且土地所有者也有资格获得奖励，他们会因发掘而得到补偿，但最终这些古物会进入博物馆，以激发和教育未来几代人。

Perhaps you can talk us through some of the reasons behind this proposed change, is it something that people have been calling for? Groups have been calling for?

也许你可以向我们阐述一下这一提议变更背后的一些原因，这是人们一直在呼吁的吗？是一些团体一直在呼吁吗？

Yes, we did a consultation on it, and as I say, there have been some cases like the Roman helmet across Bigarrot, I went to go and visit Chelmsford Museum, they've got a wonderful little Roman figure in there, the Burris Britannicus, it's a native, a Britain from the time of the Roman occupation, wearing, well, they describe as an early duffel coat, he's wearing this cloak that's tell you a lot about the weather in the UK at the time, the fashion, the craftsmanship, but also the way that the Romans were taken by us, they obviously wanted to keep warm in the British Isles, but they exported that throughout the Roman Empire.

是的，我们对此进行了咨询，就像在Bigarrot有像罗马头盔这样的案例，我去参观了切尔姆斯福德博物馆，那里有一个美丽的罗马雕像，是Burris Britannicus（一位被罗马统治的英国土著人物），他穿着一件被描述为早期毛织大衣的披风，这告诉我们很多关于当时英国的天气、时尚、工艺，以及罗马人如何被我们所吸引，并想要在不断征服的罗马帝国的领土上保持温暖。

Now that, again, was made of a base metal, so it didn't counterstretch it, it was luckily saved through another mechanism, the export bar process, so it's ended up on public display, only about two or three miles from where it was found in Essex, but we want to make sure that items like that can definitely be covered so that they can inspire people.

这件物品是由一种底材料制成的，因此它并没有受到很大的拉伸影响。幸运的是，通过出口限制程序，它得以保存，最终在离它在埃塞克斯发现的地方只有两三英里的地方进行了公开展示。但我们希望确保这样的物品能够得到覆盖，以激励人们。

So the hope is by having a more comprehensive definition of what counts as treasure, local communities, and I suppose the nations as a whole, will have a greater understanding of their history through these artifacts.

因此，希望通过更全面地定义什么是宝藏，使当地社区，我想包括整个国家，通过这些文物更好地了解它们的历史。

Absolutely, yeah. I thought, start, I sort of specified that this was only parts of the UK, can you just talk us through which parts it applies to when it goes through and which parts it doesn't and why not?

当然，是的。我想，首先我有点明确说明这只适用于英国的某些部分，你可以向我们解释一下在哪些部分适用，哪些部分不适用以及为什么不适用吗？

Yes, this is separate in Scotland, there's a separate law there because the ancient laws of treasure trove are aligned differently in Scotland and predate the Treasure Act. So this is a change for England and Wales, there's also a slightly different process which is rather complicated for Church of England land, but we see we think that the changes here will mean hundreds of items a year being covered by the new definition.

在苏格兰，这是独立的，因为那里有一项单独的法律，因为宝藏法律的古老法则在苏格兰的实现方式不同并且早于宝藏法。因此，这是英格兰和威尔士的变化，还有一个相对复杂的英国教堂土地的略微不同的程序，但我们认为这里的变化意味着每年将有数百个物品适用于新的定义。提示：宝藏法律是指在土地或水域中发现的珍贵财宝或藏品的法律。

And of course we'll see how the process goes and see whether there's a case for further widening it to other materials in due course, but we want to make sure that the scheme runs well. It's the British Museum and the National Museum Wales help us run the portable antiquity scheme, they do that brilliantly. So we've got to make sure that they in the Treasure valuation committee who work out how much items approximately are worth are able to continue processing the work as they've been brilliantly doing for the past quarter of century.

当然，我们将看到这个过程如何进行，并在适当的时候看是否有进一步扩大其适用于其他材料的情况，但我们要确保该计划顺利运行。大英博物馆和威尔士国家博物馆帮助我们运行可移动文物计划，他们做得非常好。因此，我们必须确保他们在财宝估价委员会中继续处理工作，该委员会计算文物的大概价值，在过去的25年中一直出色地完成工作。

Under the proposed changes, how will the decision making process work in terms of what gets a label treasure who will be involved in that process? It's a coroner, again, for sort of historic reasons of treasure trove.

根据提议的变更，对于哪些物品会被标记为宝藏、谁会参与该过程的决策制定方式是如何运作的？出于宝藏陈列馆的历史原因，这将由验尸官来负责。

So if an item is found, then a coroner determines whether it is a definition, whether it counts as treasure under the definitions, under the Treasure Act, and if it is then museums get first dibs on acquiring it and the Treasure valuation committee meet and they work out the value and how the finder and the land owner on whose land it was found how they can be recompensed for it and then work out how much this needs to be sold at often.

因此，如果找到了一件物品，接着验尸官会确定它是否符合“定义”，是否根据“宝藏法”属于宝藏。如果是宝藏，博物馆将优先购买，并由宝藏估价委员会评估价值，并确定如何对找到人和土地所有者作出补偿，然后再确定通常需要出售的价格。

Often the items are only a few hundred pounds so easily acquired by local museums. They can be quite small, the value of the metal can be quite low but the value, the uniqueness of these fascinating items is really beyond financial compare.

这些展品通常只值几百英镑，对于当地博物馆来说很容易获得。它们可能非常小，金属的价值可能很低，但这些迷人物品的价值、独特性实际上是无法用金钱衡量的。

And is the funding of these proposals a consideration? How will the money be sorted in terms of how this will work? Well that's for museums to fundraise and through their acquisition budgets and often their private donors and grand making bodies and philanthropic organisations who generously support the acquisition.

这些提案的资金是否需要考虑？资金将如何分类，以便让计划运作？这取决于博物馆的筹款方式，以及他们的收购预算、私人捐赠者、基金会和慈善组织的慷慨支持。

And often because of the publicity that items get when they're found it's a great part of the fundraising and the enthusiasm of the local community to make sure that museums are able to keep them.

由于发现的物品经常受到宣传，这是当地社区筹款和热情的重要组成部分，以确保博物馆能够保留它们。

We're talking right at the start of March for people who might not be aware of how this works in terms of the parliamentary process. What has to happen between now and these proposals next step I suppose? Well it's it's secondary legislation so we've laid it before parliament parliament has the opportunity to have a debate on it in both houses if it wants if the houses agree then that becomes law under the Treasure Act.

我们现在是三月初，可能有些人对议会程序不太了解。现在到下一阶段提案之间需要发生什么呢？嗯，这属于二级立法，我们已经提交给议会，议会有机会在两院就此进行辩论，如果两院都同意，那么根据财宝法，这就成为法律了。

If parliament wants to tweak it in any way then they've got the opportunity and obviously I'll be at hand in the in the Lords to debate it. If they wish to but I think there's been speaking to people in both houses there's an all party group for archaeology. I've been speaking to colleagues at the the British Museum and some representatives of metal detectorists so I think there's as this follows the consultation that we did we know that there's support for for the change.

如果议会想要进行任何修改，他们就有机会了。显然，我将在上议院参与辩论。如果他们愿意的话，我认为他们已经与两院的人员进行了交流，有一个跨党派考古小组。我已经与大英博物馆的同事以及一些金属探测器的代表进行了交谈，所以我认为我们知道这个改变得到了支持，这是在我们进行咨询后得出的结论。

I know some people would like us to go even further and cover sort of wooden and terracotta items and so on and where you know we're open to see how that works and see how the act should be extended further in the future but what we want to do is make these small bit important changes about the age the type of metal and the significance test which is probably the most important of the changes and we think that will bring many more items in but allow the process that's been working very well to continue.

我知道有些人希望我们可以更进一步，涵盖木制和陶瓷制品，等等。我们愿意看看这种扩展在未来的效果如何，但是我们想做的是针对年代、金属材料类型和重要性的检验等方面进行小但重要的修改。其中最重要的修改可能是重要性检验。我们相信这些修改可以让更多物品进入鉴定范围，同时也能保持现有的良好运作模式。

So it's sort of sounding out these changes and then potentially making more in the future if it goes well. There was a report early this week that some museums are finding it difficult to be able to store or display the sheer volume of artifacts that they have in their collections.

这就类似于对这些变化进行评估，并在未来进行更多调整。本周早些时候有一份报告称，一些博物馆因为无法储存或展示其庞大的文物收藏而感到困难。

Do you have any sort of concerns about this adding to that sheer volume? Well yes I mean museums have you know very often what you see on display is only a fraction of their collection and some museums are limited in law from deaccessioning items they have to hold on to them for a future because of course the you know questions of what is interesting change you know the items that you know often sort of put away in the store room but then as we're sort of talking about neglected histories they shed a new light so it's it's important that they are held on to and that curators are able to sort of bring them to the world.

你是否会考虑到加重展品数目方面的担忧呢？是的，博物馆通常仅展示他们藏品的一小部分，而且一些博物馆因法律原因无法减少展品，必须为未来保存。当然，关于文物的兴趣也会随着时间的推移而变化，而那些经常被放在储藏室里的文物会因为我们现在关注被忽略的历史而焕发新光。因此，保存这些文物非常重要，而馆长们也需要有能力将它们呈现给世界。

So it's important to sort of bring them out lots of museums of course lend items that aren't on display and that's really important you know it's from you know our big national institutions but small ones as well generously lend them on rotation around the UK and indeed around the world and you know we support that through the insurance to make sure you know items can be transported but you know we talk to museums obviously we have a direct relationship with a handful of museums who are the national institutions who are on to like the bodies for the department and so we talk to them about the storage space that they have but we also have schemes like the museums the states and development fund which the DCMS fund with the Wolfson Foundation which help give grants to museums so that they can look at the the brick and the bricks and water of their buildings make sure that they're able to store things adequately.

因此，重要的是要尽可能展示博物馆所拥有的藏品。当然，许多博物馆会借出未展出的物品，这非常重要，因为它们来自于大型国家机构和小型机构，它们慷慨地轮流借出物品在英国甚至全世界的展览中展出。我们通过保险来支持这个过程，确保物品可以安全运输。我们与博物馆进行交流，我们与一些博物馆建立了直接关系，这些博物馆是国家机构，他们是部门的主体，因此我们与他们谈论他们的储物空间。另外，还有一些计划，例如博物馆发展基金，它是由文化、媒体和运动部资助的，与沃尔夫森基金会合作，为博物馆提供资助，以确保它们能够适当存放他们的藏品。

But also make sure that their buildings are accessible that everybody can get in and and see them and often sometimes solve that problem of storage that is also display so that you don't have to sort of keep things away from the public eye when you're cataloging them and archiving them and and keeping them for the future.

同时也要确保他们的建筑物是无障碍的，让每个人都能进入并观看它们，有时还可以解决存储和展示的问题，这样你就不必在编目和存档时将它们隐藏起来，为将来保存。

There's sometimes concern expressed in the archaeology sector that by focusing on the sort of monetary or financial value of these objects it diverts attention away from their archaeological or historical worth what would you say to those concerns yes I mean I so twice now I've had the privilege of going to the launch of the annual treasure report at the British Museum which is wonderful because you meet the people who found these objects and they talk about their incredible pride at being the first human being to set eyes on this for two thousand years and you know it doesn't matter.

在考古学部门中，有时会有人表达担忧，认为过于强调这些文物的货币或金融价值会把注意力从其考古或历史价值上转移，您对这些担忧有何看法？ 是的，我已经有两次有幸参加了在大英博物馆举行的《年度宝藏报告》发布会，这很棒，因为您会遇到那些发现这些文物的人，并听他们讲述他们为成为第一个在2000年后再次看到这些文物的人而感到的无比自豪，而这并不重要。

You know how much it's worth it just immediately takes you back to well who who dropped this who lost it you know this this item of jewelry this piece of coin this this class that was on somebody's cloak it's you know it immediately conjures up images of how this item you know came to be buried under the ground so it's wonderful meeting the detectors who who found them and seeing their pride at these items going on display so yeah sometimes they're lucky and they're also they have a financial worth but I think people people people are doing it to make money they're doing it for the discovery and the chance of being that you know lucky first human being to hold the item.

你知道这份价值时，它会立刻让你想到是谁失落了这个东西，是谁丢了它，比如一件珠宝、一枚硬币、一件断片，或者曾经别在某个披风上的珠宝，它会让你想象出这个物品是怎么被埋到地底下去的。所以，与那些找到它们的探测器见面，看到他们的骄傲，看到这些物品被展出，是很棒的。有时候他们很幸运，这些物品也有一定的价值，但我认为人们之所以去做这件事不是为了赚钱，而是为了发现和成为第一个持有这个物品的幸运人。

One of the sort of more dark sides of archaeology which I think emerged particularly during and after the pandemic lockdowns was nighthawking which is when people sort of illegally often at night time go out with metal detectors and they find and keep objects. Is has that been factored this is that a concern. Yeah well let's say the vast majority of treasure finds are made by metal detectors and the vast majority metal detectorists know what the the law is it's a it's a criminal offense not to report something that is treasure so you know there's a risk to people in floating the law as well as it being the wrong thing to do these these items you know a wonderful and should be shared with the wide audience lots of metal detectorists are part of clubs which is great because that means that you know they're part of a support network of you know explaining how the scheme works understanding the portable antiquity scheme and knowing where to find your local finds liaison officers you can report this and say we're grateful to all the detectors who find things report them and you know then have the pride at the end of the process of seeing one display and of course they should get the credit museums often like to tell the story of how things were found and who buy so it's it's great that there's this in enthusiasm for people to get out there and and help discover the history that's below us all.

在考古学中，可能有一些比较黑暗的面向。尤其是在疫情封锁期间以及之后，晚上进行黑夜寻宝的情况比较普遍。这种行为是非法的，人们会带着金属探测器寻找并私藏遗物。是否考虑到这种情况，是否有所担忧？事实上，大多数宝藏都是由探测器发现的，大多数探测器爱好者知道法律规定，不报告宝藏是违法行为，这是有风险的，不仅是违法行为，还有人权的风险。这些遗物非常珍贵，应该与广大观众分享。许多探测器爱好者加入了俱乐部，这很好，因为这意味着他们是一个支持网络的一部分，可以解释如何使用可移植文物计划，了解如何找到当地的遗物联系官员，并进行报告。我们非常感激所有发现并报告这些遗物的探测器爱好者。他们最终会因此感到自豪，并且还会得到博物馆的认可，博物馆通常喜欢讲述遗物是如何发现的和谁发现的，因此人们热衷于外出发掘历史遗迹，这是一个好事。

I mean as heritage minister do you have a particular favorite heritage site on aspect of history the particular appeals to you well I'm a history graduate so I feel really really lucky to be the heritage minister so wonderful is you know get to jump around the country jump around different eras which is great I'm from the northeast so you know the first historic sites I visited I mean I'm from Whitley Bay so my nearest English heritage site is time mouth priori which is you know wonderful I sort of as a child you know from tobogganing down the moat when it snowed to sort of exploring the monastery and the sort of the the garrison there have been delighted to see seeking Delaval Hall which I've visited as a child that's been you know restored after the terrible you know fire that it suffered you know many years ago and the natural trust have done some great work.

作为遗产部长，您是否有特别喜欢的遗址或历史方面吸引您的地方？我们知道您是历史专业毕业的，作为遗产部长，您非常幸运能够在全国跳跃不同的时代和历史。我来自英国东北部，所以我最早访问的历史遗址是泰恩茅斯修道院，它离我的家乡Whitley Bay很近，这里是一个非常棒的英国文化遗产遗址。我曾在儿时的冬天在那里滑雪，后来也逐渐探索了修道院以及卫戍区的历史，更加为Delaval Hall赞叹，因为我在孩童时期就去过，它经历了很多年的破坏后得到了修复。自然信托组织做了一些伟大的工作。

I'm looking forward to going back and seeing the that but it's a real privilege of you know being proud to fly the flag for North and as we celebrated the one thousand nine hundredth anniversary of Hadrian's wall which is you know brilliant you know it's a you know gets so many visitors not just the rule bits of the wall in the county but you know the bits that run through Newcastle city center you can go and visit a Roman temple that's just at the end of a residential street in the west end of Newcastle and that's you know it's incredible this history is around us and and the root of the wall goes goes under petrol stations and and schools and you know this history all around us and I think that that incredible anniversary has been a great opportunity to engage the local community who just live right next to it.

我期待着回去看看那里，这真是一种特权，你知道，为北部飞旗而自豪。我们庆祝了哈德良长城的一千九百年纪念日，这是很棒的，你知道，不仅是县城墙的农村部分，而且还有穿过纽卡斯尔市中心的部分，你可以去参观一座罗马神殿，它就在纽卡斯尔西区的一个住宅街尽头，这是不可思议的，这个历史就在我们身边，长城的根部经过了加油站和学校，你知道，这个历史就在我们身边，我认为这个惊人的纪念日是一个很好的机会，可以吸引居住在附近的当地社区参与其中。

We've talked a bit about funding already in this interview there's been a lot of news in recent years about funding cuts across the whole range of sectors. Does do you think that heritage in Britain is currently underfunded and what what are your funding plans for the coming years I suppose. Obviously during the pandemic we stood by our heritage and cultural venues across the country provided more than one and a half billion pounds of support through the cultural recovery fund because you know so many of the sites depend on ticket sales and visits and the gift shop always exit through the gift shop it's such an important thing and of course suddenly because of COVID that just stopped overnight so the government stepped in to the city.

在这次采访中，我们已经谈到了一些关于资金的话题，最近几年来有很多关于各个领域的资金削减的新闻。您认为英国的文化遗产目前是否缺乏资金支持？您在未来几年的资金计划是什么？显然，在疫情期间，我们支持了全国的文化和遗产场所，通过文化恢复基金提供了超过15亿英镑的支持，因为许多场所都依赖门票销售和游客访问，而礼品店总是在出口处，它是非常重要的。当然，由于疫情的影响，这些都突然中断了，所以政府介入了。

And the government stepped in to make sure that all those sites were able to continue and welcome people back as soon as that was that was possible and it's been you know I became minister towards the end of the pandemic so I've been and lucky to see how that funding has helped people get back on their feet and but also to see the the changed ways of working. And for a time when people weren't able to visit in person it encouraged people to do more digitally to share things with worldwide audiences and that that sort of hybrid model has has continued and again some of the money that was provided through the cultural recovery funders has helped people invest in in that and that's an important part of sharing our heritage with with with audiences you know some of who may not physically be able to visit sites as easily as others.

政府介入确保那些遗址能够继续运作，并在可能的时候欢迎人们回来。我在疫情后期成为部长，很幸运地看到了那些资金如何帮助人们重新站起来，并见证了工作方式的变化。在人们不能亲自到访的时候，鼓励人们通过数字媒体与全球观众分享文化遗产。这种混合模式已经持续下去，文化恢复基金提供的部分资金帮助人们在这方面进行投资，这是把我们的遗产与观众分享的重要部分，其中有些人可能不容易亲身参观遗址。

And one other strand that's been in the media of recent years is the idea that this relationship between heritage and politics wanted to get your take on whether you think that the heritage sector and heritage organizations have become too politicized recently. I think I'm a history graduates I think it's great that people are debating the past and that is a never ending process you know we the there's no final word on history we should always be re examining and questioning what has come before we should be always asking the question well whose story isn't being heard here what what's the counterpart counterpoint to this argument so I think you know I the sort of the.

近年来媒体上的另一个主题是遗产与政治之间的关系，我想知道你是否认为遗产行业和遗产组织最近变得过于政治化了。我自己是历史专业的毕业生，我认为人们对过去展开辩论是很好的事情，这是一个永无止境的过程。历史没有最终的定论，我们应该始终重新审视和质疑过去。我们应该一直问这个问题：在这里没有被听到的是谁的故事，这个论点的对应面是什么，所以我认为，对历史进行反思和辩论是好事。

There's a very close overlap between history and politics you know history is is you know trying to understand the nature of human relations in different areas and civilizations and sheds important light on current debates so I welcome it I think the important thing is that it's done in a rigorous way a scholarly way museums and galleries and heritage venues should be provoking debate the important thing is that they encourage people to ask the questions and they don't spoon feed them the answers. Let visitors and the people people that come come to see your collections let them make their own minds have given the facts maybe even send them away with more questions in their mind you know encourage them to do some more research to pick up a book to go and Wikipedia to you know to join the debate that's an important part of it it's it's a never ending process.

你知道历史和政治之间有非常紧密的重叠，历史试图理解不同地区和文明的人类关系的本质，并为当前的辩论提供重要的启示，所以我欢迎历史。我认为重要的是以一种严谨的方式和学术的方式来做到这一点，博物馆、画廊和遗产场所应该引发辩论，重要的是鼓励人们提出问题，而不是把答案喂给他们。让参观者和来看你的收藏的人自己做出决定并让他们拥有更多的思考问题，甚至可以让他们带着更多的问题回去，鼓励他们做更多的研究，去阅读一本书去维基百科，参与辩论是其中的重要组成部分，这是一个永无止境的过程。

Some historians have expressed a view in recent years that the government shouldn't necessarily been waiting into the extent that it maybe has into these kind of issues what would what would you say in response to those concerns well you know we don't have an official view of history you know that's not the sort of country we are we live we have a rigorous and open debate I think there's a there's a role for government through things like the the laws on making sure that our national collections are protected I think that is important because it it ensure that we are not going to be a part of the world. Because it ensures that as you know contemporary debates are happening that there is a long term view I think it's important to inject nuance and rigor into the process things are never sort of simple yes or no good and bad and one of the things I tried to do when we've had the debates is is is put that nuance in because that's the job of a historian it's complex there are new easy answers and people just want to know that there's that rigor. That scholarship that nuance in the debate but you know that's that's also coming across very clearly from public historians from museums and galleries who are trying to do the same the same as well so often you know frustratingly the headlines that people see you know covering some of these items make it sound like the debate is being waged in a much more simplistic way than actually it is most of the people engaged in it are here are just trying trying to provoke discussion and inquiry.

近年来，一些历史学家表达了一种观点，认为政府不应该像之前一样过度干预这些问题，你对这些担忧有何回应？我觉得我们没有一个官方的历史观，因为我们是一个重视严谨和开放辩论的国家。政府有一定的作用，比如确保我们的国家珍藏得到保护的法律，我认为这很重要，因为这可以确保我们不会成为世界上的一部分。因为这确保了我们在当前的辩论中，有长远的视角。我认为注入细致和严谨的观点是很重要的，因为事情从来不是非黑即白、非好即坏的，我试图在我们进行讨论的时候注入这种细致性，因为这是一位历史学家的工作，它是复杂的且没有简单的答案，人们只希望看到这种严谨性、学术性以及辩论的细致性。但是，公共历史学家、博物馆和画廊也在尝试做同样的事情，往往令人沮丧的是，人们只看到了一些简单的头条新闻，而不是实际上存在的更为复杂的辩论，大多数参与者只是试图引发讨论和探究。

And that's that's exactly what they should be doing another subject which is incredibly complex and I suspect need some of the nuance that you just talked about is the easy issue of repatriation what's your view on. Artifact that have been originally taken from other cultures elsewhere in the world and are now in this country in the UK well I think it's you know it has been done case by case often there's a complex story behind it and you know that that provokes lots of questions as it should. We working with the arts council we published some refreshed guidance for museums and galleries and others who are looking at this question and again there is no set outcome I've spoken to lots of curators and museum directors who have talked me through all the possible outcomes sometimes you know you can have a fruitful loan arrangement sometimes you transfer the legal title of an item but they physically stay in your collection but the you know the ownership is transferred sometimes there are a number of different groups of people who have competing claims on items and it's just very difficult to communicate that today so you sort of reach a dead end there and in some cases as they the law says a number of our national institutions are you know prohibited in law from deaccessioning their items but that doesn't stop them lending them as they they generously do to lots of organizations I think the important thing is that wherever you see an item and you know in a sense the question of where you see it matters less than what you take from it.

这正是他们应该做的另一个极为复杂的话题就是遣返，许多文物被从世界其他文化中带回英国，你认为如何处理呢？我认为这需要根据具体情况来处理，通常情况下背后都有个复杂的故事，这会引发许多问题，这是应该的。我们与艺术委员会合作，为博物馆和画廊等机构提供了一些关于这个问题的指导，但是并没有规定结果。我和许多馆长和博物馆负责人交流过，他们向我讲解了所有可能的结果。有时候，你可以有一个富有成果的出借安排，有时你会转移物品的法律所有权，但实际上会留在你的收藏中，拥有权被转移。有时有许多不同的人有竞争性的所有权要求，很难传达，所以你可能会陷入死胡同。在一些情况下，法律规定了我们的一些国家机构不得清除他们的物品，但这并不妨碍他们像慷慨地借给许多组织一样地借出它们。重要的是，无论你在哪里看到一个物品，你从中获取的更重要。

Because so many of our great institutions are visited by people from around the world because of the ability to share things digitally they can share those with international audiences the important thing is that they tell the full story so it's you know his who made it his who owned it his how it was taken where it was taken from how it got here how it's been looking after since the the many stages of its history down the centuries should all be there for people to engage with and I think that's you know that's as important really as as where physically items are located.

因为许多我们伟大的机构受到全世界人们的访问，由于数字分享的能力，他们可以与国际观众分享这些资源。重要的是它们能够讲述完整的故事，比如制作者、所有者、取走方式、来源地，以及自从它被带到这里以后到底是怎样被保护的，它经历了几个世纪的历史过程，在人们接触的时候都应该包括在内。我认为这和物品实际的位置一样重要。

It's a slightly different issue but related I suppose is there any news of when the biotapistry might go on display in the UK well actually I had the pleasure of meeting my French counterpart on a visit to Paris recently and we're obviously preparing for the UK France summit later this month which Prime Minister and President Macron will go to and Lucy Fraser our Secretary of State will go to as well that follows on from the visit that President Macron made to the UK in 2017 when he generously raised the prospect of a loan of the biotapistry west all very keen there are a lot of museums in the UK that are very keen to be part of it it's a very fragile item as you might expect so I think there's some important conservation work that's got to be done.

这个话题略有不同但相关，我想问一下有没有关于双方的会议之后英国是否会有展出《拜占庭之毯》的消息呢？其实，最近我在巴黎时有幸与我的法国同行会晤，我们正在为本月晚些时候的英法峰会做准备，会见将由首相和马克龙总统进行，英国文化大臣Lucy Fraser也将出席。这是继2017年马克龙总统访问英国时慷慨地提出借倾向于《拜占庭之毯》西方之后的进展。我们非常热衷于此事，英国有很多博物馆都希望参与其中。但《拜占庭之毯》是非常脆弱的物品，正如你所预料的那样，所以我认为有一些重要的保护工作需要进行。

I was explaining to the French government that you know our conservators and curators and tapestry experts here very happy to help on that while it's going on so that we can. Work out a you know a good time for it to come across the channel and you know it is such a fascinating piece I mean there's some some sort of scholarship that suggests it was made in England rather than in France the you know this sort of this question whether the the arrow that you know some famously there was added in the UK so there's still so much we can learn from it and you know we're keen to see it come to the UK but I think it needs a bit of love and attention before it can.

我正在向法国政府解释，我们这里的文物保护专家、馆长和挂毯专家非常乐意提供帮助，在此进行相关工作，以便我们能够确定一个适宜的时机让它穿越英吉利海峡，这是一件非常迷人的作品。有一些学者认为，它是在英国而不是法国制作的。同时，针对是否在英国加入了箭头这个问题，我们还有很多可以学习的地方。我们热衷于看到它来到英国，但我认为它需要一些爱和关注，才能呈现出它的魅力。

Finally you're obviously hugely interested in history and although I suspect you don't have the time for this right now if you had to write history book on an aspect of history which which would you choose. Well I have written it's very very niche I wrote a history of the keen Brazilian the debating society as I spent most of my time at university doing debating in student politics and not enough time doing my degree. I graduated I sort of try to make amends for that by writing a history of the Cambridge Union pretty niche area but it was really fascinating because it's a founded in sort of 1815 and it's been a sort of bastion of free speech but sort of at that time of the Napoleonic Wars of sort of really sort of fascinating so climate for undergraduates to be debating contemporary issues.

最后，显然你非常热爱历史。虽然我怀疑你现在可能没有时间，但如果你必须写一本历史书，你会选择哪个方面的历史呢？嗯，我已经写过了，非常非常专业化。我写了一本关于热爱辩论的巴西人的历史，因为我在大学里大部分时间都是在参加辩论和学生政治，而没有花足够的时间来学习我的学位。毕业后，我尝试通过写剑桥联盟的历史来弥补这个缺陷，虽然它是一个非常专业的领域，但它真的很有趣，因为它创建于1815年左右，一直是言论自由的堡垒，但在拿破仑战争时期，它也是一个非常值得大学生们辩论时事问题的环境。

I for a decade ran the conservative history group which as the name suggests it focused on sort of political history on the the centre right and have been written lots of pieces of articles along the way one on a wonderful political Mavis Tate one of the the early female MPs who was also part of the delegation from parliament to the concentration camps after the second world war there was a cross party cross house delegation sent to go and report on it and the horrific scenes that she saw there at the end of the second world war. Very sadly contributed to her mental breakdown and that and a divorce it seems led her to take her own life just a few years later so it's a really sad story about this incredible pioneering female MP so I've yeah I continue to you know I love you know flicking through the diction of national biography and Wikipedia and thinking of more niche topics to write maybe maybe after after I'm finished in government.

我领导了保守派历史团队长达十年，就像名字所示，我们专注于中右政治史，并撰写了很多文章。其中一篇关于Mavis Tate的文章尤为出色，她是早期的女性议员之一，并曾参与议会代表团前往二战后纳粹集中营进行报告。她目睹了那里的恐怖场景，这非常令人悲哀地导致她精神崩溃，离婚后不久便自杀了，这是关于这位开创性女性议员的非常悲惨的故事。我一直喜欢通过查阅《国家传记》和维基百科等资料寻找更具专业性的话题，并写作。或许在我从政结束后，我仍会继续这些工作。

That was Lord Parkinson the current parliamentary undersecretary of state for arts and heritage in the UK. Thanks for listening to the history extra podcast this podcast was produced by Brittany Colley.

这是英国目前的艺术和文化议会副国务部长帕金森勋爵。感谢您收听历史Extra播客，该播客由布列塔尼·科利制作。