The Leadership Skills That Make Transformation Stick
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摘要
Why do so many organizational change efforts stall or flat out fail? Julia Dhar, managing director and partner at Boston Consulting Group, says the problem often isn’t strategy, it’s behavior. Leaders spend enormous time designing change, but far less understanding whether employees are willing, motivated, and equipped to adopt it. She shares research around how leaders can create genuine alignment, and what it takes to sustain momentum once the novelty fades. Dhar is coauthor, along with Kristy Ellmer and Philip Jameson, of the book "How Change Really Works: Seven Science-Based Principles for Transforming Your Organization".
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我是阿迪·伊格内修斯，我是艾莉森·比尔德，这里是HBR观点播客。好的，艾莉森，现在是答题时间。你认为有百分之多少的企业变革尝试是失败的？我知道比例很高，我猜大概一半？这是个不错的猜测，但实际情况更糟，70%或超过三分之二的尝试失败，或者至少没有达到预期目标。哇，那真是个让人沮丧的统计数据。我想我接下来要问的问题是，为什么会失败呢？这是个很好的新闻提问。当然，有很大一部分原因是执行不当，但很多时候可以从行为科学的角度去理解，而不是单纯依靠战略学科。所以，需要理解什么是真正的目标一致，个人的主动性，以及理解在重大变革中涉及的情感问题。听起来很有道理。你似乎在说，人际关系技巧是领导者最关键的能力之一。确实是。引领变革需要处理人与人之间的决策、说服力、挑战偏见等等问题，所以这些非常人性化的因素可以决定变革的成败。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i'm adi ignatius i'm allison beard and this is the hbr idea cast all right allison it is quiz time what percent of attempted transformations at organizations fail i know it's a lot um i'll say half that is a good guess it's actually worse 70 or more than two thirds fail or at least fall short of their intended goals wow that is a depressing statistic and i guess the follow-up question i would have is why why do they fail well that is the good journalistic question look it's of course about poor execution but a lot of it could be understood to the lens of behavioral science as opposed to pure strategic discipline so it's understanding what it means to have true alignment to have agency and to understand the emotional issues that are involved in a big transformation that makes a lot of sense to me it sounds like you're saying that people skills are really the most critical ones for leaders to have they're up there you know leading a transformation involves humans who are grappling with how to make decisions how to be persuasive how to test their biases and so on so yeah very human things that can make or break a successful transformation.
今天，与我们对话的是波士顿咨询集团的总经理兼合伙人以及BCG行为科学实验室的创始人朱莉娅·达尔，她与克里斯蒂·埃尔默和菲利普·詹姆森共同撰写了《变革真正的运作方式：变革组织的七项科学原则》一书。在我们的对话中，她提到一个广为人知但值得深入探讨的观点，即大多数变革努力都会失败。那么，她所指的变革失败是什么意思呢？
在这个背景下，我们主要指两种情况：要么是在特定时期内未能为股东带来价值，要么未能实现启动变革计划时设立的目标。这本身就已经很糟糕了，而更不幸且很少被讨论的是，尝试改变一个组织、改变人们如何一起工作的方式是非常昂贵的。
所以，当我们看到这种失败率在过去几十年内始终保持在60%到75%之间时，这意味着大量的人力潜力、才华甚至是乐观态度被浪费了。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
so speaking on that today is julia dar who's managing director and partner at boston consulting group and founder of bcg's behavioral science lab she's the co-author along with christy elmer and philip jameson of the book how change really works seven science-based principles for transforming your organization and here's our conversation you know you assert and this isn't controversial i think this is well known but i want to talk about this the idea that most change efforts fail so what do you mean by that and what does failure mean in this context we actually mean one of two things either they failed to return value to shareholders over the specified period and or they didn't achieve the objectives that the people who set up the change initiative or the program set out at the beginning of the effort and that in and of itself is pretty bad and even more unfortunate under discussed element of that is it is expensive to try and change an organization to shift how groups of people get something done together and so when we look at that failure rate and that rate has consistently hovered somewhere between 60 and 75 percent for the last several decades that's an enormous waste of human potential and talent and frankly optimism.
"你是否感觉计划本身是不错的，但执行上出了问题，还是我们所制定的计划根本没能让我们走上正确的方向？我的观点是两者都有。我们在变革的‘如何实施’这一方面不够前瞻，我对此稍有同情。我认为在某些圈子中，有一种假设认为这一环节无趣或缺乏吸引力。我可以想象，有些人甚至会说这种工作应该由组织下层去完成，而不应该是高管的任务。对此，我和我的合著者完全不同意，成功的战略很大程度上基于‘如何实施’这一点。因此，这是问题的一部分：我们讨论‘如何实施’的话题不够早；其次，我们没有充分谈论一个观点，那就是这不仅仅是一个概念、产品或定价的转变，而是一个行为的转变。我们很少深入问自己：我们需要改变行为的人有可能做到这一点吗？他们是否具备正确的激励来做到这一点？他们是否拥有正确的技能？他们是否有正确的动力来让他们感到兴奋去做？这些都是在行为科学中被归为‘采纳’的话题和概念。"
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and is your sense that you know the plans are good but the failure is in the execution or that somehow the plans that we're drawing up are not even getting us in the right direction it's a little of both that we don't bring far enough upstream the how of change and i have a little bit of sympathy with that i think that there is an assumption in some camps that that is boring or unglamorous i could imagine that some people might even say like that is work that should happen lower down in the organization that isn't really the work of executives my co-authors and i completely disagree with that that like successful strategy is very much grounded in the how so that's part of it we don't talk about the how early enough the second is we don't talk enough about the idea that it is not just a shift in concept or product or pricing but generally we are talking about a behavior shift and we don't ask deeply enough often enough is it likely that the people who we need to change their behavior are going to do this will they do it because they have the right incentives can they do it because they have the right skills will they be excited to do it because they have the right motivation that's all in a sort of bundle of topics and concepts that in behavioral science we talk about as take up.
我们没有花足够的时间去考虑我们希望其他人改变的事情是否可能实现。让我们来谈谈其中的一些挑战。我们都经历过这样的转变，比如说领导层宣布我们要做一些全新且激烈的改变，通常情况下，员工（如果我可以泛泛而谈）可能会觉得，哦天哪，拜托吧，因为他们已经习惯了一种方式，现在却有人说要用另一种方式，这就产生了一种落差。讨论一下这种落差、它的重要性，以及领导者如何努力缩小这种差距并克服这个挑战。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
we don't spend enough time saying is the change we desire other people to make probable so let's talk about some of the challenges so you know we've all been through transformations where let's say leadership says you know we're going to do this dramatically new thing and you know often employees if i can generalize they're like ah come on oh please you know they're used to doing things one way and somebody says we're going to do things other way so you have this gap talk about you know that gap and you know why it matters and and how leaders can try to narrow it and get past that.
我喜欢你开始的方式，也就是说，如果我们有一定的工作经验，我们都以前经历过类似的情况。我们参与这项工作的主要动机之一是想挑战那些关于组织变革的陈词滥调。其中一个经典例子是，当事情开始走下坡或者活力和热情有所下降时，组织中通常会有一个高级人员说：“毕竟，人们就是不喜欢改变。” 所以，我们首先要问的问题是，这是真的吗？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i love the way you started which is to say we all if we have pretty much any amount of work experience we've all seen a movie of this before one of our primary motives as we went into this work was to attack some of those clichés associated with change in organizations a classic one when things start to ebb or get a little bit low on steam or enthusiasm is someone usually senior in the organization says well after all people just don't like to change and so the first question we're asking was is that true.
为了回答这个问题，我们决定在全球十几个国家中挑选了6000人，其中包括1000名高管和5000名非高管，并给他们一个看似简单的日常生活或在这种情况下，职业生活中的变化。我们告诉他们你的职业生活将会发生变化，但你现在还不知道这对你个人的具体影响。这里只强调对组织的影响和变化的程度。我们要求他们直观地表达对变化的感受，从非常积极到非常消极。结果显示，70%的高管对这种变化表示非常积极或积极，而这时他们对变化的具体内容还一无所知。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and the way that we set out to answer that question was to take 6 000 people in a dozen countries around the world a thousand executives and 5 000 non-executives and give them a version of a really simple change in their daily life and said or in this case in their professional life your change is coming to your professional life you don't yet know what it means for you it's the impact on the organization the magnitude of the change instinctively how do you feel about the change from very positive to very negative 70 of executives feel very positive or positive and this is where you know nothing about the change.
变化可能体现在我们决定不再需要你参与执行团队。例如，那些高层领导似乎具有一种与生俱来的对变革的热情，同时也有大约45%的员工感到积极或非常积极。所以，首先，并不是所有人都讨厌变革。总体上，我们对变革的态度还是偏正面的，但远没有高层领导那样积极。高层领导与普通员工在变革倾向上存在很大差距。这也意味着，当我们在大型变革项目中遇到“我们只需要让每个人都兴奋起来”的陈词滥调时，需要注意这一点。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the change could have been we have decided we can do without you on the executive team for example but like there's a kind of hardwired enthusiasm among those senior leaders for change but about 45 percent of employees also feel positive or very positive so thing number one it's clearly not true that people just hate to change we also generally are somewhat favorable towards change but nowhere near as favorable as executives there is a huge gap between the predisposition of executives for change and for employees in organizations and so that means that when you run into that other fairly common cliche in big change programs that we just need to get everybody excited.
目标不应该是让每个人都像高管一样兴奋或乐观，这样做可能是不切实际的。相反，我们应该尝试通过非常具体的、理想情况下以行为为重点的干预措施来缩小这一差距，使人们更接近于理解需要改变什么、为什么改变，以及非常实际地我们要做些什么，不仅让改变变得可行，而且理想情况下还要让人们愿意接受。你书中有一句很棒的话，说员工在变革期间感受到的情绪可能不是你的错，但它们会影响你成功的机会，这对我来说很有趣。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the goal shouldn't be to get everyone as excited or optimistic as executives that's probably a fool's errand it should be to try and bridge that distance through very specific ideally behaviorally focused interventions that bring people closer to an understanding of what needs to change why and very practically what are we going to do not only to make that change achievable but ideally also pretty attractive you have a great line in the book that says the emotions that employees feel during a transformation may not be your fault because they affect your chances of success and that to me is interesting.
变革过程中其实有一个情感层面，我觉得对于员工来说，变革可能会让他们感觉是自己将要经历的事情。而对于高层管理者来说，他们可能觉得这是一件能带来好处的事情。这种差异很有趣，你可以选择要么强硬地说“要么适应，要么走人”，要么以一种更复杂的方式在情感层面上沟通，努力缩小这些差距。你刚才提到的一句引言是我合著者之一菲尔·贾米森写的，他说“高管在变革中的情感并不是你的错，但却是你的问题。”他还曾为我们的书提出过一个替代书名，但最终没有采用，原因很明显，不过那个书名还挺有趣的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
there's an emotional component to change i think for employees change feels like something that will happen to them maybe it's executives that feel like this is something that will benefit them but it's interesting because it's you know you can either say look get with the program or you're out or you can get engaged in a more sophisticated way on these emotional levels in narrowing these gaps so that line that you just quoted that the emotions of executives during change may not be your fault but they are your problem was written by one of my co-authors phil jamison who had also pitched an alternative title for the book that was not ultimately successful for reasons that are about to be very obvious but was kind of charming.
他提出的另一种选择是“闭嘴并改变”，而实际上，在组织中进行变革时，常常包含这样的元素。或者更委婉地说，人们必须上车，否则就会被落下。而不是说我们真诚地关心为什么接受新行为有困难。我们事实上了解行为科学中的基本法则，比如帮助他人在某个环境中采用新行为的首要方法是提供一套非常具体的期望。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the alternative that he had pitched was shut up and change and there's so much about the way in which we often do change in organizations that has an element of shut up and change to it or we might more gently say people just have to get on the bus or we will leave them behind them behind as opposed to saying we have a sincere interest in reasons why adopting a new behavior is challenging and we sort of know these really basic laws of behavioral science like the number one way in which we can help someone adopt a new behavior in a context is to provide a very specific set of expectations.
第二点是去除明显的障碍，第三点是确保它与组织内部的其他激励措施或生活中的其他压力保持一致。当我们在会议室里谈到这些事情时，我觉得人们本能地会点头同意。当我们将这些挑战描述为与客户相关的问题时，比如，很多高管对了解客户在数字销售漏斗中的挑战或关注点都非常好奇且充满热情。然而，当我们面对我们更加了解、希望能给予至少同等关心的组织内部员工对这些问题的反对时，我们对待他们的同理心、好奇心、乐于助人的态度甚至可能同情心似乎就减少了一些。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the second is to remove obvious barriers and the third is to make sure that it's consistent with any other sets of incentives that they have inside the organization or other pressures that they have in their lives when we say those sorts of things in a meeting room i think people instinctively nod and agree when we describe those challenges in relation to a customer for example often executives are extremely curious very passionate about knowing in detail what the challenges or concerns of moving for instance a customer through a digital sales funnel might be but we lose a little bit of that same empathy curiosity helpfulness even maybe or sympathy for the objections that people have when it comes to people that we know much better hopefully have at least as much care for which is our own employees in the organization.
所以，我认为你想表达的是，员工的情感阻力或疑问是可以理解的，并且需要去管理。你如何评估和衡量员工对正在进行的过程的情绪反应呢？如果你的目标是尽可能达成一致，那么从底层获取反馈可能会帮助调整战略过程，以一种领导层最初可能没有察觉到的方式进行改进。其中一个我们问员工的问题是，除了他们对变革的本能反应外，还有他们在我们描述这一过程时本能感受到的情绪是什么。最常见的情绪是好奇心，这非常令人鼓舞，表明人们想要了解更多。这与以往关于变革的写作完全一致，说明我们的失败之一就是未能沟通，未能成功地向人们解释我们在做什么。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
so i think what you're saying is that the emotional resistance or the questions that employees have is understandable needs to be managed how do you even gauge and measure the emotional response to the process that's underway if your goal is to eventually get as much alignment as you possibly can but by the way to maybe get you know feedback from down below that will help tweak the strategic process in in ways that leadership might not have seen initially one of the things that we ask people in addition to what's your instinctive reaction to this change is what are the emotions that you instinctively feel as we describe this the number one emotion is curiosity which is really encouraging it's people saying i want to learn more that's really consistent with basically everything else ever written on change that says one of our failures is a failure to communicate and to successfully explain to people what we are doing.
第二种常见的情绪是焦虑，这意味着在组织中，常常有成千上万的人处于一种好奇而焦虑的状态，这种状态需要被管理，或者至少需要很好地理解。我想谈谈我日常工作中的一些事情，其中一项就是经常询问人们的感受。通常是通过问卷调查的形式，比如，如果你在工厂或商店工作，可以在每班的开始或结束时询问。如果你是从事办公室工作的，可以在一天开始或结束时询问：你现在的情绪是什么？实际上，要人们表达情绪并不是件容易的事，但如果给他们一点时间去反思，他们通常是能够并愿意分享出来的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
but the number two emotion is anxiety and so that means that we have a group of people often thousands of people existing in the organization in a state of curious anxiety that does need to be managed or at least really well understood i mean let me talk a little bit about day-to-day what i do in some of my own work one is literally ask people all of the time very often through a survey for example at the start or end of a shift if you are in a factory or a store the start or end of the day if you do a job that is desk-based what are the emotions that you are feeling and that actually is not the easiest thing in the world for people to do but if you give people a moment to reflect on it people are able and generally very willing to share that.
我建议所有在组织中推动变革的人都去询问团队成员的两个关键问题。第一个问题是：“你会把这次变革推荐给你的同事吗？” 另一个我认为非常有用的问题是：“你认为我们有可能成功实现设定的目标吗？” 注意，这个问题并不是在问你是否同意这些目标，或认为它们对你个人是否有益，而是问你是否普遍认为我们有可能成功实现这些目标。这样的问题不仅能促使人们从一个更加客观的角度去思考，还能让他们考虑在了解我们尝试做的事情后，这些目标实现的可能性有多大。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the two other questions that i really encourage frankly everyone leading a change in organizations to ask of the people they are requesting make a change is number one would you recommend this transformation to a colleague the other one that i find very very useful in figuring out whether the what has connected successfully to the how is asking people do you think we are likely to be successful with the goals that we have set out and so note that's not do you agree with the goals do you think they will be good for you personally do you generally think that we are likely to be successful in achieving them and so that allows people to move into a more objective stance but also to consider whether or not based on what they've been told about what we are trying to do here whether or not it's probable that that will unfold.
如果你在员工参与方面，通过某种智能方式缩小情感理解的差距，对了，那你是不是在说这是确保成功变革的关键？虽然这并不能保证你从失败到成功的转变，但确实会逐步提高成功的可能性，因为这样你对组织中变化的实际发生方式有了更好的理解。当然，即使完成了第一座关于同理心和理解的山峰，前方也依然存在许多挑战。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
if you get this right in terms of this employee engagement this kind of emotional understanding you know narrowing the gap through sort of intelligent ways then what i mean are you saying that that is the key to a successful transformation that increases the odds i mean what's the value precisely of getting that right it doesn't guarantee that you move from being unsuccessful to successful but incrementally it increases your probability of being successful because you have a much better understanding of how in fact that change is actually taking place in the organization of course like there are many mountains beyond the like having climbed the first mountain of empathy and understanding.
这段话的意思是：行为科学在帮助那些需要改变的人，特别是在如何成功且可持续地影响他们方面，有很多具体的建议。这些人可能需要在持续而稳定的基础上进行改变，需要付出相当大的努力来摆脱现状。我们的书中提到其中的七条建议，但我特别喜欢其中的几个，比如更加有效地利用故事和象征，考虑动能作为一种资源，组织可以利用这种资源来妥善管理个人的自愿努力，以及明确识别组织中人们改变行为的障碍。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and those are really specifically what does behavioral science recommend in terms of successfully and sustainably reaching people who need to change and who perhaps need to change on a very sustained and consistent basis they need to make some pretty significant effort to move from the status quo we talk about seven of them in the book but a couple that i really like are making much stronger use of stories and symbols thinking about and considering momentum as a resource that the organization has and can steward to appropriately manage the discretionary effort of individuals and getting really sharp about what the barriers are to people doing something differently in an organization.
确实，有一小部分人似乎对变革非常过敏，他们始终对变革持非常负面的态度，但显然这并不是大多数人的表现。所以，当我们在组织中尝试进行某种变革并遇到阻力时，一个相当合理的假设是，这些人并不是普遍讨厌变革，而可能只是暂时不认可你所提出的想法。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and indeed there is a small number of people who appear to be allergic to change persistently very negative about change but it clearly isn't most people and so where we run into resistance in an effort to make some kind of change in the organization a pretty reasonable assumption is not that those people generically hate to change it might be that they're just not currently buying what you're selling.
朱莉娅，让我们谈谈在员工参与中的宜家效应。你知道这是什么吗？你有没有组装过宜家的平板包装家具或者其他类似的家具？天啊，我组装过好多回，也许还和某个你喜欢或关心的人一起做过。是啊，刚开始我们还在聊天，但到最后可能就不怎么说话了。不过，这正是宜家效应的精妙之处，它由哈佛商学院的迈克·诺顿精彩地描述和记录。基本意思是，亲手参与创造某物的人往往会格外珍视它。这对于管理层来说是一个重要的启示。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
julia so talk about the ikea effect in employee engagement you know talk about what that is have you ever assembled flat pack furniture ikea or otherwise oh my god so many times including maybe with someone you loved or cared about uh yeah initially we probably weren't talking by the end of it but yeah exactly but the ikea effect brilliantly described and documented by mike norton at harvard business school basically says that people who have had a hand in creating something disproportionately value it that's the important takeaway for executives.
他通过让人们自己组装宜家盒子来进行实验，可能你家里也有一个这样的盒子。然后，他询问这些人愿意为自己组装的盒子支付多少钱，与专业人士组装的相比。这个故事的结局你可能已经猜到了，人们愿意为自己组装的盒子支付多出63%的价钱。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the way experimentally he demonstrated this was by having people build ikea boxes maybe you have one of these in your house and then asking what they would be willing to pay for it versus one assembled by a professional and you can probably guess the ending to this story that people were willing to pay 63 percent more for their own.
我假设那些盒子的质量不如专业组装的好。人们不会烧毁他们曾亲手建造的房子，也不会破坏他们帮助创建的项目。因此，我们并不总是必须让人们参与变革变得极其容易。但是，给人们提供一个合理且真诚的机会，让他们能够影响与自己相关的项目部分，这是一个重要且非常有用的步骤。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i'm going to assume inferior boxes than they were for a professionally assembled one people do not burn down houses that they have had a hand in building people don't sabotage projects that they helped to create and a consequence of that is to say we don't always have to make it unbelievably easy for people to participate in change but giving people a reasonable opportunity a sincere and genuine opportunity to shape an element of the project that affects them is an important and really useful step to be able to take.
我经常想到，管理人员可以立即采取的一个做法是，在设计项目时提前询问团队成员对问题的理解有多全面，并给予他们提供意见的机会。允许他们参与，例如为项目命名或确定某些变更的正确执行顺序。当然，并不是组织中的所有事情都可以通过共识来决定，也不能像一个民主制度一样运作。但如果我们记住宜家效应——那些参与设计的人会更加关心这个项目，因为它不再只是CEO的议程，而成了他们自己的目标。这样你会直观地发现，虽然已经通过分析证实，这样做成功的机会要高得多。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i often think things that executives can immediately do is up front as we are designing a project ask people how comprehensive the understanding of the problem is and give them an opportunity to have input at that point. allow people to do things like name a project or to determine the right sequence of events for certain changes to be rolled out of course not everything in an organization can be by consensus it cannot be a democracy but if we keep the ikea effect in mind that people who have shaped something take care of it it quickly becomes their agenda as opposed to the ceo's agenda you start to see intuitively although this has also been proven analytically that the chance of success is much higher.
我们一直在讨论领导层和员工之间的一致性，但我们也看到，即使在领导层内部，管理者之间也未必完全一致。我认为这与故事讲述的方面多少有些关系。我曾参与过创业公司的工作，并努力讲述他们的故事，这不仅对投资者、公众和媒体有用，而且在公司内部也有帮助。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
so we've been talking mostly about the extent to which there's alignment between you know leadership and employees but there's also you know and we've seen this where even among leaders executives aren't fully aligned and this i think it's into the storytelling aspect to a degree i mean i've you know i've been involved with startup companies and been involved with efforts to tell their stories and tell their stories is useful for investors for the public for the media but also internally.
你知道，有时候通过讲故事，我们会发现高层人员的意见并不完全一致。那么，这对转型工作造成多大问题，又能在多大程度上解决呢？我们确定的一件事是，也许行为改变中最被低估的工具就是讲述得当的故事和有力的可见象征。人类是高度依赖叙事的生物，我想这对像你和我这样热爱文字的人是一件好事，但对那些认为自己只被数字或数据驱动的人来说，其实也是有益的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
you know sometimes it's in the storytelling that you realize that senior people aren't completely aligned so you know to what extent is that a problem in transformation efforts and to what extent can that be broken down one of the things i feel we know for sure is that perhaps the most underused tool for behavioral change is the well-told story and the powerful visible symbol human beings are we are profoundly narrative which i guess is good for people like you and me who love words but it's actually good for people who think that they are only mobilized by numbers or by data.
故事对我们来说是难忘的，它们能够激励我们采取行动，吸引我们的注意。然而，一个非常重要的事情是要注意，为了让故事在组织中的行为改变中有效发挥作用，首要的一步就是故事必须真实，必须诚实且具体地描述现实情况以及讲述者对听众的请求。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
stories are memorable to us they mobilize us to action they captivate our attention however a really important thing is to note that in order for a story to work well as a tool for behavior change in an organization the very first step is that it must be true and it must be honest and specific about the reality and the request that the storyteller is making of the listener.
我们谈论了在组织中推动变革的三种不同类型的故事。第一种类型是威胁：我们必须改变，否则就会遭受损失，甚至面临消亡。在全球金融危机后的汽车行业救助中，福特成功地进行了这样的变革，通过重建和扭转局面使得企业复兴，并在此后数次成功地进行了类似的转型。第二种类型是健身式变革，这实际上是大多数组织变革努力的典型。我们需要不断改进，把我们做得最好的事情做得更好，或者因为我们在能让自己变得出色的方面变得有些松懈、不够严格，因此需要更加一致和有纪律。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
we talk about three different types of story of mobilizing for change in an organization type number one threat we have to change or we will suffer and maybe die ford did this really successfully after the auto bailouts after global financial crisis and in rebuilding and turning around that organization often a couple more times after that the second type is fitness and this by the way is most of the change efforts in organizations we need to continue to get incrementally better at what we do best or we have gotten a little sloppy a little loose a little undisciplined at what makes us really good and we need to be more consistent.
然后，第三种类型是命运故事，意思是通过这个转变，我们实际上可以实现公司一直以来的承诺，成为真正的自己。约翰·梅谈到约翰迪尔的转型，不再只是销售拖拉机和农业设备的硬件公司，而是提供帮助农民提高生产力的软件。这是一个关于命运故事的很好的例子。领导者必须面对的问题是，他们在业务周期、战略周期或变革周期中真正处于什么位置，并相应地邀请人们参与。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and then the third type is destiny to say by making this shift we can actually realize the promise of what this company was always meant to be we can become who we really are john may when he talked about the transformation of john deere towards being not just a hard iron company that sold you know tractors and farming equipment but to one that also sold software that allowed farmers. to be much more productive that was a really good example of a destiny story threat fitness or destiny the thing that leaders have to make a choice about is where are they genuinely in the business cycle in the strategy cycle in the change cycle and invite people to participate accordingly.
我知道你在书中写到了动量的重要性。当你启动一次转型时，你是否应该考虑动量？我们是否应该计划一个早期的胜利，而不仅仅是看看发生什么，并希望它能奏效？实际上，我们应该为动量制定一个计划，以便在不断前进和达到另一个里程碑时，能够持续获得积极的反馈。我们应该将动量纳入我们的转型策略中吗？答案是绝对的。动量可能是为数不多的、真正可控的变量之一。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i know you write about momentum in the book when you're launching a transformation should you think about momentum should you think about we're going to have this early win but we have to think about you know let's not just see what happens and hope that it works let's actually stage a kind of plan for momentum so that there is this constant you know let's say positive feedback as we keep moving as we hit another milestone should we plan momentum into our transformation strategies one hundred percent it might be one of the only really truly controllable variables.
在任何组织中，我的意思基本上是，永远不会有足够的资金，永远不会有足够的时间，也不会有足够的高层关注。但我们可以非常有意识地推动进展，比如问自己：我们是否继续在取得进展？比如，是不是还停留在一周前的状态？为了让人们感受到进步，我们需要做些什么？因为我们明确知道，一旦个人或群体相信自己能够做到某件事，这种信念往往会成为自我实现的预言。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and what i mean by that is basically in any organization like there will never be enough money there will never be enough time there will never be enough executive attention but we can be really deliberate about momentum including asking are we continuing to increase momentum to gain yardage for example are we stuck where we were a week ago and what will it take to give people a sense of progress because one of the things we know for sure is that if individuals or groups of people believe that they are capable of doing something that turns out to be kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
最好的方法不仅仅是告诉人们要有信心，而是要通过不断积累的能力和成功经验来帮助他们。这样一来，动力会开始朝着持续的方向发展。我认为在计划阶段或决定阶段有一个关于动力的残酷真相，我们谈得不够多，就像很多改变自身行为的努力一样，不仅在过程中会变得混乱，有时甚至会让人感到无聊。有时候，我们所说的动力缺失，或者诊断为动机或士气问题，实际上可能只是因为高层管理人员已经失去了兴趣，转而关注其他事情。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and the best way to do that is not just to tell people to be confident but it's to give them the experience of acquired competence and success over time and so in that way momentum can start to move towards perpetual motion i do think there is one pretty ugly truth about momentum that we don't talk about nearly enough in the planning phase or the deciding phase of change which is like a lot of efforts to change our own behavior it's not just that it gets messy in the middle sometimes it gets boring in the middle and that sometimes what we could say is a loss of momentum or we diagnose as a problem of motivation or morale somewhere deeper in the organization is actually just that executives have lost interest and have moved on to something else.
现在实际上需要批判性地审视该计划的结构，看看是否有一套可行的仪式、每周节奏和动力，为计划提供自己的动能，以便我们不必过于费心地考虑我们是否仍然在一起。这将对每个人都很有帮助。有哪些早期迹象表明转型开始停滞，无论是在这种方式下还是其他任何方式下，我们该如何应对？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and actually asking critically examining now the structure of the program to say is there a set of rituals is there a weekly cadence and drumbeat and drumbeat for the program that will actually give it its own momentum so we don't have to think too hard about whether or not we're all still in this together would be very helpful for everyone what are some early signs that a transformation is starting to stall you know in that way or in any other way and what do you do about it.
我认为，有些迹象非常明显，但也很容易被日常或每周的事务所忽视。比如，有些高管突然不参加会议，不是因为紧急情况，而是因为选择去其他地方。你可以通过制定一套严格的相互期待关系来解决问题，但这种情况可能表明，组织并不是丧失动力，而是高管们感到有些无聊。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
so i think a couple are those really obvious but also easy to ignore daily or weekly signs things like an executive suddenly not attending a meeting because there was not because of emergency but somewhere else that they had decided to be for example you can get around that by saying we have a very like rigorous set of expectations for one another up front but that's a sign that you might be experiencing not so much loss of momentum in the organization but a little bit of boredom from executives.
第二个要点是，如果你没有系统地说“让我们来测量和理解组织的行为和情感”，那么当你开始使用成套路的表达时，比如“我认为这个组织已经很累了”，这样的说法实际上并不准确。显然，组织本身并不会感到疲倦，真正感到疲惫的是组织中的人。人们当然可能会感到疲倦、精疲力竭或者过度工作，但整个组织中几乎不可能每个人都这样。轻率地说“我认为组织累了”会让这种个人的经历变得无足轻重和不被重视。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the second is if you are not systematically saying let's measure and understand the behaviors and emotions of the organization when you start to revert to expressions cliches frankly like i think the organization is tired clearly not like an organization cannot be tired people in an organization of course can be tired they can be burnt out they can be overworked it is highly unlikely that it is everyone in the organization and it cheapens that experience to just say well i think the organization is tired.
我认为现在普遍存在一种对变革的疲惫感，因此我们应该稍微退一步，而不是把它当作一个机会来做出关于资源分配的慎重选择，比如精力、时间、金钱以及专业知识在组织中的使用。此外，我认为如果我们不充分利用庆祝、赞美、欣赏和认可，这常常是变革初期的一个令人痛苦的现实。我们需要通过一些早期的胜利来获得一种进展的实感，以便继续前进。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i think there is general change fatigue so we should just back off a little bit as opposed to saying that's an opportunity to make deliberate choices about where energy and effort and by the way other resources including money including expertise opportunities going in the organization and then i think the final one is if we underuse celebration we underuse praise appreciation recognition and it's a i think often a painful reality about the early phases of change that you need some early wins we need this sense of endowed progress to keep going.
我们经常不得不比我们愿意的时间更长地谈论那些初期的胜利，它们往往比我们所希望的要更谦逊。但是，意识到这些胜利是可见的，并提醒组织中的每个人变革是可能且受到赞赏的，这对于能够扩大发这些成功的高管来说是一个非常重要的行为。他们能够通过这些胜利传达自己的期望，所以当有人听到这一点并感到，“是的，我正在引领一项变革努力，我真的希望它能够成功，我相信这点，并理解这过程很复杂。”那么有几件事情可以作为一个起点去考虑，以增加这次变革成功的可能性。
第一步，在大范围行动之前，作为变革推动者，问自己：我是否仅仅得到了虚假的认同，一群高管常常只是说“这听起来不错”，还是说我得到了真正的共识？一个非常简单的验证方法就是让核心团队拿出一支笔和一张纸，这是一种非常低技术含量的测试，然后写下我们已经同意要做的事情，什么在改变，它将如何运作。在所有人能够始终如一地写下大致相同的内容，大致相同的“是什么”和“大致相同的“如何”之前，你其实并没有一个变革计划。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
we often have to talk about those early wins for much longer than we want to they're much more humble than we would hope that they are but knowing that those are visible to people that they remind everyone in the organization that change is possible and that change is appreciated is a really important act for executives who can amplify those successes who can transmit. their expectations through them so you know somebody's listening to this and is feeling yeah you know i'm i'm leading a transformation effort i really wanted to succeed i believe in this i understand that it's complicated what are a couple things to think about that are within their grasp that are reasonable to grasp onto as a starting point to kind of increase the chances that this transformation is going to succeed step number one before you go too wide but you change maker ask yourself is what i have false alignment a bunch of people often in senior roles saying this sounds good or do i have true agreement an incredibly easy tactical way to test this is have that core team take out a pen a piece of paper this is a very low-tech test and write down what it is that we have agreed to do what is changing and how is it going to work until you have that consistently agreed all of us are able to write down approximately the same thing approximately the same what and approximately the same how you don't really have a change agenda.
第二点是要专注于推广、落实（take-up）。你可能听过一句经常被误解的名言，来自电影《梦田》（Field of Dreams）："如果你建好了，他们就会来"。然而在变革项目中，我认为一个比较安全的假设是：即便你建好了，他们可能依然不会来，除非你制作了一个推广计划，让人们做出你希望他们做出的行为改变。
如果你独自一人在那里，没有资源，也没有行为科学方面的支持，那么打造推广计划其实很简单。你只需要问项目经理或项目负责人，写下下面问题的答案：在这个组织中，哪些特定个人和角色需要改变他们的行为？我们期望什么样的行为改变？基于我们目前的计划，人们是否有可能做出这种改变？如果答案是否定的，那么你需要一个更好的推广计划，因为你的商业计划假设人们会改变，而你知道他们不会。
你可以通过两个步骤来完成这个审查。第一，确保我们有真正的一致共识，当每个人都在为改变写下相同的故事、相同的目标和相同的方法时，你就知道你们达成了一致。第二，确保你有一个相当可靠的推广计划，知道预期哪些人会改变，想让他们做出哪些行为，并且能够向别人解释为什么你认为他们可能乐意并能够做到。如果你脑中有一个公司的例子，该公司经历了一场变革，并且表现得很出色，结果也很积极，这将是一个激励所有人的榜样。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
the second one is to focus on take up and so you know this line from often misquoted from field of dreams if you build it they will come in change programs i think it's a really safe assumption if you build it they still probably won't come unless you have created a plan for take up for people to do the behaviors that you hope that they will do and a take-up plan if you are sitting there by yourself saying i have no resources i have like no behavioral science inside my organization is as simple as this it is asking a project manager or a project owner to write down the answer to the question which specific individuals and roles in this organization need to change their behavior what behavior change do we expect and is it likely that people will make that shift based on the plan that we have if no you need a better take-up plan because your business case assumes that people are going to change and you know that they won't so you can do this whole audit on two pieces of paper number one do we have true agreement you'll know you do when everybody is writing down the same story for change the same what and the same how and you'll know you have a pretty robust take-up plan a good plan for behavioral shifts if you know who you expect to change what behaviors you want them to do and could explain to someone why you think it's likely that they will be able and willing to do that and do you have an example in your head of a company that has gone through a transformation that is just should be inspirational to everybody you know that they they really handled it well and the outcome was positive.
我认为，一家通过将员工的需求置于核心而反复证明自身能力的公司是达美航空。达美航空走出破产时，正值公司历史的一个转折点。记得，达美航空今年已有101年的历史，拥有10万名员工。在那时，他们实施了一项至今仍在实践的做法，称为“丝绒计划（Velvet）”。这项计划给予高管和领导者们一个机会，让他们花时间去欣赏、认可、倾听和与公司各个部门的员工交流，包括空乘、机械师、值机员和行李搬运员。
通过这种方式，他们贯彻了一种强而有力的变革理念：如果高层领导善待员工，那么员工就会善待客户，而被善待的客户将促使股东、股价和公司的财务表现自动向好。这背后包含了丰富的组织战略，而“丝绒计划”正是一个明显的例子，展现了人们如何实实在在地聚在一起，被认可。与此相配合的是诸如利润分享的激励措施，直接感谢员工的努力。在我看来，这很好地体现了我们对各个利益相关者如何共同实现变革的清晰理解。我们要求领导者先行改变，然后才要求员工改变，并确保他们的激励措施是统一的，这样我们就不会要求人们去为他们可能永远无法看到利益的变革而努力。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
i think a company that has proven that they can do all of the things that we've been talking about over and over again by keeping the employees who they are making requests of right at the center is delta airlines coming out of bankruptcy like really at the ends of that period of the company's history and remember delta airlines is 101 years old this year 100 000 people work there instituted a practice that exists to this day which is called velvet and velvet is effectively an opportunity for senior executives and leaders across the organization to spend time with appreciate recognize but also to hear from and to speak with employees across the organizations cabin crew mechanics check-in agents baggage handlers and in doing that they are living up to a very very strong theory of change that has existed and has been talked about but also lived throughout the company's history which is if senior leadership take good care of employees employees will take good care of customers and customers who have been taken care of will lead to shareholders and the share price and financial performance taking care of itself there's a lot that is wrapped around that as an organizational strategy velvet is one really obvious example of ways in which people literally physically come together and get appreciated it gets matched in terms of the incentive program with profit sharing and other ways to directly appreciate people's efforts but to me that is a really good example of saying we have a really clear understanding of how all of our different stakeholders come together to change we ask leaders to change before we ask employees to change and we ensure that their incentives are aligned to do so so that we are not asking people to volunteer for a change that they themselves will never see the benefit of.
以下是这段话的中文翻译：
朱莉娅，我想感谢你作为我们的嘉宾参加HBR Idea Cast节目。非常感谢你邀请我。这位是朱莉娅·达，她是波士顿咨询公司的执行董事兼合伙人，同时也是《变化如何真正发生：转变组织的七个科学原则》一书的合著者。下周，艾莉森将探讨领导者常常对问题想得太多，以及他们可以采取的措施。如果您觉得这一集有帮助，请与同事分享，并确保在Apple Podcast、Spotify或您收听的任何平台上订阅和评价Idea Cast。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
julia i want to thank you for being our guests on the hbr idea cast thank you very much for having me that was julia dar managing director and partner at boston consulting group and co-author of the book how change really works seven science-based principles for transforming your organization next week allison looks at how leaders often overthink their problems and what they can do about that if you found this episode helpful share it with a colleague and be sure to subscribe and rate idea cast in apple podcasts spotify or wherever you listen
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▶ 英文原文 ⏱
if you want to help leaders move the world forward please consider subscribing to harvard business review you'll get access to the hbr mobile app the weekly exclusive insider newsletter and unlimited access to hbr online just head to hbr.org slash subscribe and thanks to our team senior producer mary do audio product manager ian fox and senior production specialist rob eckhart
感谢您收听 HBR IdeaCast。我们将在周二带来新的一集。我是阿迪·伊格纳修斯。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
and thanks to you for listening to the hbr idea cast we'll be back with a new episode on tuesday i'm adi ignatius