73. Is It Okay to Engage in “Social Loafing”?
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Also: why is it so great to be part of a team, even when you lose? This episode originally aired on November 7th, 2021.
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中英文字稿 
奶油和坚果洒在顶上。谁去拿颗玛拉斯奇诺樱桃。我是安吉拉·达克沃斯。我是斯蒂芬·杜布纳。您正在收听《没有愚蠢问题》节目。今天的话题是：如果可以让别人为你做事，那你为什么还要自己费力去做呢？你是个坏人。我是个糟糕的人。此外，斯蒂芬分享了一个特别的感激时刻。我喜欢“达克纳”团队。达克沃斯。安吉拉，我想问一个与我们不久前在这个节目上讨论过的话题相关的问题。请说。我们当时谈论的是会议，会议经常很糟糕，而且很多会议都被爱出风头的人占据了。我们聊到了会议的“合适规模”。但我们没有讨论到的一件事是，会议对经济学家所说的“搭便车者”来说是有好处的，也就是说，当其他人在工作时，你顺便享受成果。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Whipped cream and nuts on top. Somebody go grab a maraschino cherry. I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm Stephen Dubner. And you're listening to No Stupid Questions. Today on the show, why should you exert yourself if you can get other people to do the work for you? You're a bad, bad person. I'm a terrible person. Also, Stephen shares a special moment of appreciation. I like Team Duck-ner. Dubworth. Angela, I want to ask a question related to something we discussed not long ago on this very show. Shoot. We were talking about meetings, how bad they often are, how so many meetings are dominated by noisy people. We talked about the, quote, right size of a given meeting. But one thing we didn't get to is the idea that meetings can be good for what economists call free riders, meaning you go along for the ride while someone else is doing the work.
假设我们八个人开会进行头脑风暴，我知道你，安吉，特别有很多好点子。所以我可以坐在那里，想想晚上吃什么。后来我才了解到，心理学家对这种现象也有个术语，叫做"社会惰化"。我觉得这个词比"搭便车"更贴切。如果我能同时搭便车和社会惰化，那简直是完美的一天。不过，我想问你，究竟什么是社会惰化？它真有听起来那么美好吗？我是不是应该多做一点这种事？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So let's say you and I and six other people are in a brainstorming meeting. And I know that you, Angie, have a lot of great ideas. So I can just sit back and think about what I'm going to have for dinner that night. Now, I've since learned that psychologists have a phrase for this, too. It's called social loafing. I like that phrase even more than free riding. If I can find a way to free ride and social loaf at the same time, that's my perfect day. But I do want to ask you, what exactly is social loafing? Is it as wonderful as it sounds? And should I be doing even more of it?
社会惰化指的是在一个需要团队合作的任务中，比如拔河比赛中多人一起拉绳子，或者在会议中集思广益为下一个产品提出新想法时，一个人会因为知道还有其他人也在任务中而变得不那么努力，甚至有时会投入更少的精力。比如说，我可能会想，那我可以去计划晚餐了。你提到过拔河，这不是有个著名的老实验与此相关吗？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Social loafing is when you have a group task, more than one person trying to accomplish anything, really, like tugging a rope in a tug of war, but also brainstorming ideas for the next product in a meeting. Anything where there's a task that needs to be accomplished by a group of people. The idea of social loafing is that as an individual, I will work a little less hard or sometimes a lot less hard because I know other people are on task. And so, yeah, I can go and plan dinner. Now, you mentioned tugging a rope. Isn't there a famous old experiment about social loafing that involves rope tugging?
好的，我可能在想这个问题的最早期研究。如果你从事管理学，你可能知道林格尔曼是个法国人，我想他像个农夫，但他研究的是农业中人和机器的生产力。理论上，当你把人们放在一起组成团队时，他们会比单独一个人做得更好，比如更多人一起推犁等。然而，实际上，增加新成员带来的收益并没有你想象中那么大，比如你增加一个人，但他们实际贡献的努力可能不到一整个人的努力。有时候，结果甚至可能是相反的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Yeah, I was probably thinking about the very early work on this. If you are in management science, you might know that Ringelman was a French, I don't know, he's like a farmer, but he was studying the productivity of men and machines in agriculture. And the idea was that when you put people together in groups, they will, in theory, do better than an individual because you like more people, you know, more people pushing on a plow, et cetera. But actually, the addition of new members to the group yields not only a smaller gain than you would think, like you add one person, you don't get one person's effort. But in some cases, it could even be the reverse.
我可以想象，就像我们在节目中讨论的许多话题一样，领域的不同确实很重要。对于这样的体力任务，你可能会意识到自己在想，因为有那么多人在出力，我可以不必全力以赴，只需要付出适度的努力就行。那么在我描述的那种知识或智力领域的会议中，也会出现社会惰化的现象吗？是的，不论是脑力任务还是体力任务，这种现象都是存在的。这实际上是责任分散这一更广泛现象的一部分。你可能会想，哦，我不需要尽全力去做我的那部分工作。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I can imagine, as with a lot of things we discuss on this show, that the domain really matters because with a physical task like that, you can see how I might even consciously say, well, so many people are pulling. I don't have to give it my all. I can give a moderate effort. What about in more of a knowledge or intellectual domain like the meeting I was describing? Do we see social loafing there as well? Yeah, it really does play out, whether it's mental tasks or physical tasks. It's part of actually a broader phenomenon of diffusion of responsibility. You're like, oh, I don't have to do my part.
Ringelman实际上以不同的方式解释了相同的结果。我认为他认为可能存在协调问题。比如说你有八个人。哇，想象一下，要让每个人协调一致地做同一件事情有多复杂。但是问题是，这种现象出现在非常简单的任务中，你其实不需要太多协调。所以我认为这个现象很普遍，主要是与动机有关，而不是信息传递的交易成本。当你提到“责任分散”这个词时，我想到《继承之战》中的一个董事会会议。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Ringelman actually was interpreting the same results in a different way. I think he thought there might be coordination. Like you have eight people. Wow. Imagine how complicated it is to get everybody to be coordinated doing the same thing. But the thing is, it plays out in extremely simple tasks where you don't really have to coordinate. So I think the phenomenon is quite general and it's largely motivational and not an informational transaction cost. When you mention this phrase diffusion of responsibility, I think about this board meeting in succession.
等一下，“Succession” 是一个专有名词吗？是的。它是在 Netflix 上播的吗？不，它是一部 HBO 的剧，并且我觉得非常精彩。这个剧讲述了一个拥有媒体帝国的家族。你可以闭上眼睛，想象一下默多克家族或者类似的人。剧中的 CEO 是一个年纪很大的老人，他的健康状况有些问题。所以继承问题一直萦绕在人们心头。在一个董事会议上，进行了对 CEO 的不信任投票。你可以想象，这一切充满了潜在的指责、报复等等各种复杂和紧张的情节。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Wait, succession is a proper noun? Yeah. Was it on Netflix or something? It's an HBO show. And I think it's amazing. The show is about a media-owning family. You could close your eyes and picture the Murdochs or someone like them. The CEO is a pretty old man and he's had some health issues. And so succession is on everybody's mind all the time. There is a board meeting where there is a vote of no confidence in the CEO. And you can imagine that this is unbelievably fraught with all kinds of potential recrimination and revenge, etc., etc., etc.
当你提到“责任扩散”这个词时，我立刻想到那个场景：他们围坐桌边投票。如果你让所有人同时投票，尤其是匿名投票，结果可能会不一样。然而，如果投票是逐个进行的，且不是匿名的，那故事就完全不同了，因为每个人都需要对自己的投票结果负责。这让我想到了我听过的另一个术语，叫“道德脱离”。我想知道你是否了解这个概念。我不打算回答这个问题，除非你告诉我关于信任投票不满的结果。好吧，这是个剧透。如果你想要看《继承之战》并且还没看第一季，请捂住耳朵捂住耳朵12秒。CEO洛根·罗伊最后赢了，尽管他有些作弊。但由于他没有被赶下台，他立即进行报复，解雇了所有投反对票的人。哦，有点像斯大林还是什么的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So when you said this phrase diffusion of responsibility, I thought immediately of that scene where they're going around the table to vote. Now, if you had asked everybody to vote all at once and especially anonymously, there might have been one outcome. If you go around the table, however, and A, it's not anonymous, and B, it's sequential, totally different story because you are going to be held accountable for yay or nay. And this made me think of another phrase that I'd come across called moral disengagement. And I wonder if you know anything about that. I refuse to answer this question until you tell me what happened at this board vote with no confidence. Okay, it's a spoiler. So if you want to watch succession and haven't yet watched season one. Cover your ears. Cover your ears for 12 seconds. The CEO, Logan Roy, wins, even though he kind of cheats. But since he's not booted out, he immediately takes revenge and fires everybody who voted against him. Ooh, kind of like Stalin or something.
许多即将投票的人在脸上表现出的疑虑是，如果我投赞成票，我会受到什么惩罚？如果我投反对票，我可能会得到什么奖励？我无意中接触到一个词汇叫做“道德脱离”，不知道您能不能为我解释一下。我了解到这个概念指的是如果你不参与某件事情，那么你就不能被责怪。我还在想，这是否与社会惰性有关。我想到不久前去世的心理学界巨擘阿尔伯特·班杜拉。当他写到道德脱离时，我认为他是在讨论我们在某些情况下感受不到道德责任的重负。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Many of the people who are about to vote, you can see on their faces, if I say yes, what's my punishment? If I say no, what's my potential reward? But this phrase that I'd come across called moral disengagement, I'm wondering if you can tell me anything about that because I gather it's a notion that if you don't participate in something, then you can't be blamed. And I wonder if some social loafing is connected to that as well. Well, I think of Al Bandura, who died not long ago. Al Bandura really was a towering figure in psychology. And when he wrote about moral disengagement, I think he was talking about how we feel like the weight of moral responsibility is not there in certain circumstances.
换句话说，你正在从决策中固有的道德因素中脱离开来。作为一名心理学家，他实际上是非常注重我们具有因果作用的这个事实。他想了解我们在何种情况下会忽视我们拥有这种作用的事实，而这当然也意味着责任。当我回想起之前提到的会议情境和其中的“社交懒人”时，就把我自己当做例子吧，因为我非常适应扮演这个角色。我能想象出一个人懒散的多个理由。我可能会觉得自己很懒，不想做工作，或者不想参与，因为这需要付出努力。这是个原因。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
In other words, you are disengaging from the inherently moral elements of a decision. He was really, as a psychologist, very much motivated by the fact that we have causal agency. And he wanted to understand the circumstances under which we ignore the fact that we have agency, which, of course, implies responsibility. So when I think back to the meeting scenario that I raised earlier and the social loafer, let's just say it's me because I'm very comfortable in that role. I could imagine a number of reasons for a given person to be loafing socially. I could think that, you know, I'm lazy. I just didn't feel like doing the work or I don't feel like participating in the moment because it requires effort. So that's one.
另一种可能是，我缺乏能力。我的想法不好，我很清楚这一点。所以我会退缩，这可能看起来像在偷懒，而实际上是因为缺乏才华。我也可能觉得，这不完全是因为我懒或无能，而是我在群体环境中感到不自在。这些只是我对可能原因的一些想法。也许还有二十种其他的可能性，但我们有没有任何实验证据证明是什么导致人们这样做的呢？我认为懒惰确实是与此相关的一个重要因素。因为即使有其他因素影响，懒惰已被证明是人性的一个基本特征。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But another could be that I lack competence. My ideas are no good and I know it. So I'm going to hold back and that might appear like loafing, whereas in fact it's the absence of talent. I could also think that it's not so much that I'm either lazy or incompetent, but I'm just not comfortable in a group setting. So those are just a few thoughts I had about what could cause it. There might be 20 more, but do we know anything empirically about what leads people to do this? I think laziness is really inherent and maybe the through line across this. Because the idea is that even though these other factors might play in, laziness has separately been shown to just be true of human nature.
有时候，这被称为最小努力法则。在我们用道德化的新教工作伦理自我批评之前，应该明白所有的动物都是懒惰的。感谢上帝，它们是懒的，不是吗？你不希望无谓地消耗精力，你需要节约自己的能量，只做必要的工作，然后去做其他事情。我们不应该用光自己的能量。这听起来有点像唐纳德·特朗普关于锻炼的理论，他说他不喜欢过多锻炼，因为他觉得自己的身体系统就像一个会被耗尽的电池，一旦用完就没有能量了。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Sometimes it's called the law of least effort. And before we all wag our moralistic Protestant work ethic finger at ourselves, all animals are lazy. And thank God they are, right? You don't want to be aimlessly expending effort. You have to husband your energy and you have to only do as much work as you need to do so that you can go do something else. We shouldn't be profligate with our energy. That sounds a little bit like Donald Trump's theory of exercise that he said he didn't like to exercise too much because he felt like his molecular physical system was something akin to a battery that you wear down. You just don't have any more energy.
他真的是这么说的吗？我在转述，不过你在说什么，安吉？你是在谈论更实际的事情吗？比如说，如果你我几千年前出去打猎，想要猎捕一只剑齿虎？即使是现在，对吧？比如说，我对你说，我需要你把这只盘子放到二楼厨房。然后我看着楼梯，我就想，先爬到八楼，然后再爬下来七层。你会觉得，这真是太傻了。我只要爬一层楼，这才是我必须要做的最少的事情。这是说得通的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Did he really say that? I'm paraphrasing, but what are you talking about, Angie? Are you talking about more in the physical domain? Like if you and I are going out on a hunt to try to kill a saber-toothed tiger a few thousand years ago? Well, even now, though, right? Like, say, for example, I say to you, hey, I need you to put this plate up in the kitchen on the second floor. I look over at the stairs. I'm like, first climb to the eighth floor and then climb back down seven flights. So you're going to be like, oh, that's dumb. I'm going to do one flight of stairs because that's the minimum that I have to do. That makes sense.
每次我在费城走路的时候，总是会想到这一点。在一个街区，有一条对角线。没有人会在头脑清醒的情况下走三角形的两条边。如果有对角线的话，你会走那条，因为这样更快。选择更长的路不仅耗费不必要的时间和精力，还显得不明智。所以，仔细想想，是不是每个动物都会尽量减少努力呢？这对我们人类也是一样的，对吧。我觉得即使你觉得其他人不会知道你的努力程度，实际上，这种情况经常发生。我们会在私下里偷偷懒。所以说，这并不是因为感到尴尬或者不舒服，而是出于一种理性的思考：为什么我要费力去做呢？反正其他人也会这么做，这很合理。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I always think about this every time I'm walking in Philadelphia and there's one block where there's a diagonal. Nobody in their right mind is going to take the two legs of the triangle. If the diagonal is there, you take it because it's faster. It's dumb to take the longer route and expend unnecessary energy and time. So if you just think about it, wouldn't every animal expend the least amount of effort? And that's true of us, too. Right. I think it's even when you don't think that other people are going to know what your effort is. In fact, very often, that's the modal thing. Kind of privately, you start shirking. So all of this doesn't really say, oh, you're embarrassed, you're uncomfortable. It's really just that you kind of think logically, why should I put myself out there? Other people are going to do it. That makes sense.
每种情况都是不同的。我想到例如维基百科，它是由志愿者创建的。我自己从来没有为维基百科贡献过任何东西，但我经常使用它，我甚至没有给他们捐过钱。你没有？你应该捐钱，我有捐。我可能也应该捐钱，但我没有，因为我是个社会懒惰者。也许你在道德上漠然。我所有的缺点都有。你是个坏人。我是个糟糕的人。但如果维基百科的设定不同，比如如果无法匿名使用，或者无法不贡献就使用，我肯定会乐意去做贡献。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And again, every situation is different. I think of Wikipedia, for instance, which is volunteer created. I've never created anything for Wikipedia. I consume it all the time. I don't even give them any money. You don't? You should give them money. I give them money. I probably should give them money, but I don't because I'm a social loafer. Maybe you're morally disengaged. I'm all the bad things. You're a bad, bad person. I'm a terrible person. But if the Wikipedia setup were different, if one couldn't comfortably use it anonymously, if one couldn't comfortably use it without contributing, I'm sure I would. I'd be happy to.
好的，这就是关于维基百科心理学的一些想法。我也没有编辑过任何条目，部分原因是，如你所知，你不应该编辑关于自己的维基百科条目。我想，人们可能会想纠正维基百科条目是因为觉得自己知道一些别人可能不知道的东西，或者至少是你属于一个很小的知情群体。我认为这正好是对抗社会惰性的解药。你知道，我想起了熊火预防卫士斯莫基。还记得吗？他会用手指着你，有点说教味道。只有你可以防止森林火灾。什么意思只有我？又不是我引起的。没错。我总会跟他争论。你在说什么，斯莫基？因为我有很好的防火意识。Stephen则把手指指向旁边那个人，我也只指那个人。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Well, here's the thing about Wikipedia psychology. I also haven't edited anything, partly because, as you know, you're not supposed to edit anything where you are the Wikipedia entry. I think the motivation to correct a Wikipedia entry might be that you feel like maybe only you know, or at least that you're in a very small group. And I think that's exactly what you need as the antidote to social loafing. You know, I was thinking about, remember Smokey the Bear? Sure. Remember he would point his very finger at you? A little preachy. Only you can prevent forest fires. What do you mean only me? I didn't do it. Exactly. I always talk back to him. What are you talking about, Smokey? Because I had good fire hygiene. Stephen's got his finger pointing at the person next to him. I do. Only that person.
当我还是个孩子的时候，Smokey（森林防火宣传形象“烟熊”）有点让我恼火。因为我们常常生火，但总是把火扑灭。等等，什么？我们常去露营，我是在偏远乡村长大的。哦，我真的受够了纵火的风险。我们非常认真地对待这件事，参加过童子军训练，所有相关的知识都学过。所以当Smokey对我说“只有你可以防止森林火灾”时，我心想，Smokey，你不了解我，但我了解你，我一直在留意你，Smokey熊。不过，我们换个角度来想，我觉得Smokey熊并不是真的担心童子军，他更担心那些粗心大意的青少年或者随意留下火源的家庭。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Can I say, Smokey pissed me off a little bit when I was a kid, because we set fires all the time, but we always put him out. Wait, what? We camped a lot. I grew up in the boondocks. Oh, oh, oh. I was sick of getting arsoned. And we took it really seriously, Boy Scout training, all that stuff. So when he would look at me and say, only you, I thought, Smokey, you don't know me, but I know you, and I'm keeping my eye on you, Smokey Bear. But look, let's put ourselves in the place of Smokey. I don't think Smokey the Bear was actually worried about Boy Scouts. I think Smokey the Bear was just worried about careless teenagers or families leaving their embers.
"我想说的是，这种表达方式，‘只有你’，就像为什么‘斯莫基熊’会说‘只有你’呢？我认为这是因为社会惰性、责任扩散和道德脱离感的原因。而解决这一类集体责任感的问题的方法就是强调‘不，不，不，只有你’。这是完全反对那种集体观念的。这很有趣，因为根据我们对行为、行为改变和社会规范的了解，如果我告诉你大多数人都这样做，那么你可能就会更倾向于去做。我本以为‘斯莫基熊’的信息是完全错误的。我会觉得你应该说的是，斯莫基熊出来告诉大家，大多数人就像小史蒂夫一样，非常注意森林中的火花、火星和火焰，并且很仔细地熄灭篝火。”
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And I'll say this, that phrasing, only you, like why did Smokey the Bear say only you? And I think it's because there's social loafing and there's diffusion of responsibility and moral disengagement. And basically the antidote to that kind of plurality of people who collectively take responsibility is like, no, no, no, only you. It's exactly anti that. It's interesting because given what we know about behavior and behavior change and social norming, the idea that if I tell you that most people do X, then you're a little bit more inclined to do that. I would think that the Smokey Bear message was exactly wrong. I would think what you'd want to say is you'd have Smokey Bear come out and say, most people like little Stevie here are pretty good about watching for spares, sparks and flames in the woods and they put out their campfires really carefully.
不过偶尔也会有些笨蛋不这样做。如果那个笨蛋是你，我就会从电视里扑出来揍你一顿。我觉得这可能会是一个更好的信息传达。可惜他们没有选择这个广告方向。不过，史蒂文，我觉得你指出了一个很有价值的——我不知道这算不算个悖论——你在某种程度上想传达每个人都在做某事，同时又想传达独特性。是的，实际上有一些研究表明，在团队环境中运作的一个方法是给人们分配独特的角色，这样只有我能扮演这个角色。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But once in a while, some idiot doesn't. And if that idiot is you, I'm going to come through the TV and I'm going to you up. I think that would have been a better message. Well, they didn't go with that ad campaign direction. But Steven, I do think you're pointing out a useful, I don't know if it's a paradox, but you're saying in some ways you want to communicate that everybody's doing something and in some ways you want to communicate uniqueness. Yeah. Then actually there is some research suggesting that one of the ways that you can get this all to work in a group situation is that you assign people distinct roles. So only I can play this part.
我想了想这个问题。你读过《船上的男孩》吗？没有，从没听说过。这本书讲的是华盛顿大学的赛艇队。当时，这个大学队可能是奥运会参赛队中最好的。不过，《船上的男孩》这本书讲述的是，这支赛艇队及其舵手是如何克服困难的。当我想到在这样的精英水平上表现时，他们不存在“社会性懒散”。团队成员必须有一种心理意识，就是“我”是大于个人的集体的一部分。然而，同时也只有“我”在这个团队中担任第七位。如果我不做好我的工作，整个团队就会失败。所以，Smokey the Bear是否完全做对了，我不确定。但我确实认为，必须要有一种独特的责任感，来抵消社会性懒散。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And I thought about this. Did you ever read Boys in the Boat? No, never heard of it. It's about the crew team at University of Washington. And this is the time in history when the Olympic team may have been the best college team. But anyway, the Boys in the Boat is about how this team of rowers and their coxswain triumph over adversity. And when I thought about performing at these elite levels, they don't have social loafing. There has to be the psychology of I'm part of something larger than myself. So that's a collective. But also only I am in the seventh position. If I don't do my job, the whole thing falls down. So did Smokey the Bear do it exactly right? I don't know. But I do think there has to be a uniqueness to that feeling of responsibility to counter social loafing.
我正在看维基百科上的华盛顿大学赛艇队的页面。上面写着 Angela Duckworth 实际上是第七位。我会是舵手。只是说说而已，如果你想编造假新闻，至少在5-1上弄得更真实一点。也许在我们谈话的时候，是我自己插入了这个编辑。也许吧。现在，我们应该说，一个获胜的赛艇队显然是经过招募、训练和监控，以避免社会惰化现象的。但我能想象相反的效果。我很好奇这种现象是否也被观察到。换句话说，仅仅身处一个团体中，是否能激励个人比单独行动时更加投入或取得更多成就。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I'm looking on Wikipedia here at that University of Washington crew team. It says Angela Duckworth was actually in the seventh position. Yes, I would have been the coxswain. Just saying, if you want to make up fake news, let's do it a little more realistically on 5-1. Maybe I'm the one that actually inserted that edit as we were speaking. Maybe so. Now, we should say that a winning crew team has obviously been recruited and groomed and trained and monitored for the lack of social loafing. But I could imagine the opposite of this effect. And I wonder if this has been observed as well. In other words, when the mere act of being in a group encourages more participation or accomplishment than you do on your own.
假设有一天我出去散步。我一个人在乡间漫步，欣赏鸟儿，看着树木，听着音乐，顺便想着事情。如果在路边看到一些垃圾，我可能会想，要是能捡起来就好了。但是我没有袋子，于是我继续走回家，把看到的小垃圾留在那儿没有捡。但第二天如果我和几个朋友一起出去散步，再看到那些垃圾，我想我会更倾向于把它们捡起来。因为我们三个人在一起，可以想办法找个东西来装垃圾。反正我们本来就在走路，就顺便捡起来吧。在这种情况下，和朋友们在一起反而会激励我产生积极的社会行为，而不是减少这种行为。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Let's pretend I go out for a walk one day. I'm walking in the countryside, let's say, by myself, looking at birds, looking at trees, listening to music, just thinking. And if there's a little trash by the side of the road there, I might think it'd be nice if I pick it up. But I don't have a bag. And so I walk home and I leave all the little trash that I see unpicked up. But the next day, if I decide to go out with a couple of friends and we see it, I think I would be more inclined to pick up the trash. Like between the three of us, we'd figure out, you know, let's find something to put it in. Let's just do it. We're walking anyway. Let's just pick it up. So being in the group in that case would inspire pro-social behavior rather than diminish it.
所以除了社会惰化，还有没有类似社会激励、社会唤醒的现象呢？确实有类似的现象，只是研究相对较少，被称为科勒效应。这个名字不是来自某个厕所，而是以一个名叫科勒的人命名的。科勒效应指的是，当人们被放在团队中时，实际上会提升他们的动力和表现能力，而不是像社会惰化那样导致动力和表现能力的下降。那么问题是，什么时候会出现林格曼效应（动力和表现降低），什么时候会出现科勒效应呢？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So is there, in addition to social loafing, is there also social galvanizing, social arousal, anything like that? There is the opposite. And it's less study, but it's called the Kohler effect. Is that a toilet? It is not, so far as I know, named after the toilet. It's named after a person named Kohler. But this idea of the Kohler effect is that when you put people in teams, you actually increase motivation and performance as opposed to social loafing, which is a decrease in motivation and performance. Then the question is, when do you get the Ringelman effect? When do you get the Kohler effect?
一种推测是，这种情况只会在能力混杂的群体中发生。比如，有些人比较强，有些人比较弱。这样一来，就像是，哦，我需要为这个较弱的人补偿一下。或者，较弱的人看到强者，会想，哦，我应该像他们一样努力。这基本上都是通过这些社会比较来实现的。但我觉得，当人们意识到这是一个需要大家协调合作的团队行动时，才会取得更好的效果。在这种情况下，每个人都有自己的独特角色，我们都必须做好自己的一部分，否则整个事情就会失败。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
One speculation was that it only happened in groups where you have mixed ability. Like some people are stronger, some people are weaker. And then it's like, oh, I guess I have to compensate for this weaker person. Or maybe the weaker person would look at the strong people and be like, oh, I guess I should pull strong as they are. It's basically all through these social comparisons. But I think the place where this collective action ends up being better is when people look around and they're like, oh, this is some coordinated team thing. I have this unique role. We all have to do our part or the whole thing is going to fail.
我为会议中的“社会懒散者”辩护说，他们至少是贡献者的优秀听众，这也是一种贡献，不是吗？当然，这个观点可能有点牵强，但我还是可以接受。你还有关于“社会懒散者”的其他看法吗？因为我对社会懒散非常反感。其实，我现在已经相信，并不是所有的社会懒散都是坏事。这样做可以理解，是人之常情。我认为在某些情况下，对某些人而言，这未必是最糟糕的选择。与其让一个人引起矛盾，我宁愿看到他们选择懒散一点。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I will say this in defense of the social loafers in a meeting, let's say, the social loafers are, if nothing else, a very nice audience for the people who do like to contribute. So that's not nothing, wouldn't you say? Sure. OK, that's a stretch, but I'll go with it. Is there anything else you can say about social loafers? Because I am super anti-social loafing. Well, here's the thing. I'm actually convinced by now that all social loafing isn't bad. It's understandable. It's human nature. And I think for some people in some circumstances, it's not the worst choice. I'd rather see somebody socially loaf than actively antagonized.
这是一种轻微的赞美。但我想说的是：犹太智者希勒尔有一句名言——如果我不为自己，谁会为我？如果我只为自己，我是什么？如果不是现在，那是什么时候？不过，我还想说，如果不是我，那又是谁呢？其他人可能都会偷懒。所以呢，只有你。如果要回答这个深刻而美好的问题（如果不是我，那谁呢？），我的回答是：安吉，就是你。像烟熊史莫基（美国森林防火吉祥物）说的那样，只有安吉。其他人，你们继续玩火柴去吧。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
This is faint praise. But I will say this. There's this quote by the Jewish sage Hillel. If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when? But I also think, if not me, who? Everybody else is going to be a social loafer. So, you know, only you. To answer that very deep and lovely question, if not me, who? I would answer it, Angie, you. Smokey the Bear is like, only Angie. The rest of you, go back to your matches.
即将在《没有愚蠢的问题》节目中，斯蒂芬和安吉拉将深入探讨群体心理的复杂性。那真是太了不起了，这与人们的直觉完全相反。所以，安吉，今天我不想再问另一个问题，我想和你分享一件令我欣赏的事情。这是我最近遇到的一个事情。正如你所知，我喜欢高尔夫。是的，有一些兴趣。我最近观看了一场名为莱德杯的赛事，这项比赛通常每两年举办一次。由于新冠疫情的影响有些混乱，但最近他们在威斯康辛的呼啸峡举办了这场比赛。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Still to come on No Stupid Questions, Stephen and Angela delve further into the intricacies of group psychology. I mean, that is extraordinary. That is the opposite of what people's intuitions would be. So, Angie, rather than ask another question today, I wanted to share with you an appreciation. This is something I came across recently. As you know, I like golf. Yes, a little bit. And I was recently watching an event called the Ryder Cup, which happens usually every two years. It's been a little bit thrown askew by COVID, but they held it recently in Wisconsin at Whistling Straits.
莱德杯是一项比赛，由欧洲全明星队和美国全明星队进行对决，每队由12名选手组成。多年来，这项赛事的胜负双方交替领先，最初美国占据主导地位，后来欧洲队开始占优。今年，美国队表现出色，轻松战胜欧洲队，比赛结果毫无悬念。赛事为期三天，前两天采用多种比赛形式，最后一天每位选手都会与对方队伍中的一名选手进行单人对决。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And the Ryder Cup is a competition between an all-star European team and an all-star American team, 12 players on each team. It's gone back and forth over the years. The U.S. used to dominate. Then the Euros have really dominated. And now the Americans are trying to claw their way back. And this year, the Americans killed the Euros. It wasn't even close. It takes place over three days. And there are a variety of formats during the first couple days. And then on the final day, every player plays a singles match against somebody else on the other team.
这一天，生活在美国的爱尔兰高尔夫球手罗里·麦克罗伊，他非常受欢迎，而且球技非常出色。等等，说到这位住在美国的爱尔兰高尔夫球手罗里，他是代表哪支队伍呢？他代表欧洲队。许多欧洲高尔夫球手喜欢来到美国参加PGA巡回赛，因为这里的收入更高。他们中的很多人喜欢住在佛罗里达、亚利桑那或德克萨斯，因为这些地方的天气好。而且，这些地方的税收很低，这绝不是巧合。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And on this day, the Irish golfer Rory McIlroy, who lives in the U.S. and is very, very popular and is very, very good. Wait, the Irish golfer Rory, who lives in the U.S. So which team was Rory on? He plays for the Euros. A lot of European golfers like to come to the U.S. to play the PGA Tour here because it's more remunerative. And a lot of them like to live in Florida or Arizona or Texas because the weather is good. And they happen to be very low-tax places, which is not a coincidence.
如果你把佛罗里达的好天气和低税率结合起来，就会吸引很多职业高尔夫球手。因此，Rory McIlroy，一个非常成功的高尔夫球手，他在很年轻的时候就崭露头角。现在他可能快30岁了。他在一场单人比赛后不久接受了电视直播采访。他当天赢得了自己的比赛，但此时明显看出欧洲队要输了。我觉得这是一个令人难以置信的电视直播时刻。我特意找来了这段视频，真的很想知道你对此的看法。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
If you combine the good weather and low taxes of a Florida, you will attract a lot of professional golfers. So Rory McIlroy, who's a very winning golfer, he burst onto the scene when he was very young. He's probably in his late 20s by now. He gave a live TV interview shortly after his singles match. He won his match this day, but by now it was obvious that the European team was going to lose. And I found it an unbelievable moment of live TV. I pulled the tape here, and I'm really curious to know your response to it.
好的。我现在和罗里·麦克罗伊在一起。欧洲队今天拿下了第一个积分。罗里，我相信这对你来说是感情复杂的一天。你能用语言描述一下你对这周的感受吗？
是的，我非常自豪能够成为这支团队的一员。我们度过了一段美好的时光。看起来比赛情况可能不会如我们在高尔夫球场上所愿。我对自己没能为团队做出更多贡献感到非常失望。我很高兴今天为他们取得了一分，但这确实是艰难的一周。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
All right. I'm here with Rory McIlroy. First point of the day on the board for the European team. Rory, I'm sure it's a day of mixed emotions for you. So can you put into words your feelings about this week? Yeah, I'm incredibly proud to be a part of this team. We've had a great time. It looks like it's not going to pan out the way we want on the golf course. I've been extremely disappointed that I haven't contributed more for the team. I'm glad I got a point on the board today for them, but it's been a tough week.
随着我参加这个赛事的次数越来越多，我意识到这无疑是高尔夫中最棒的赛事。我非常喜欢参与其中，迫不及待想继续参与下去。哇，他看起来很激动，是在哭吗？对，没错。刚才你说过，你希望观看比赛的小男孩和小女孩们能够向成为莱德杯或索尔海姆杯队员努力奋斗。当你在打这场比赛时，这是你心中所考虑的吗？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And the more and more I play in this event, I realize that it's the best event in golf, bar none. And I love being a part of it. I can't wait to be a part of it anymore. Wow, he is upset. He's crying, right? Yeah. Just a moment ago, you said that you hope that little boys and girls who are watching aspire to be members of a Ryder Cup team or a Solheim Cup team. Is that something that's in your mind as you play this game?
是的，我认为能成为这些团队的一员，没有比这更大的荣幸了。我已经有幸参与了六次。这些经历一直是我职业生涯中最棒的经历。我从未因为个人成就而哭泣或激动，我对这些真的无所谓。但看到塞尔吉奥打破记录，看到琼·拉姆本周展现出色表现，看到我最好的朋友之一，谢恩·洛瑞，首次亮相莱德杯，这让我感到无比开心。我非常非常高兴能成为其中的一部分。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Yeah, I don't think there's any greater privilege to be a part of one of these teams. I've gotten to do this six times. They've always been my greatest experiences in my career. I've never really cried or got emotional over what I've done as an individual. I couldn't give a s**t. But this team and what it feels like to see Sergio break records, to see Jon Rahm come into his own this week, to see one of my best friends, Shane Laurie, make his Ryder Cup debut. I'm so, so happy to be a part of it.
正如我所说，我对自己这周没有做出更多贡献感到失望。两年后，我们会再试一次。那时对不起我说了脏话。哦，我的天，我太喜欢他了。那真是太有趣了。这就好像是责任扩散的反面，对吧？不像那种我会在很多人一起工作时匿名地不做事，把任务推给别人。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
As I said, I'm disappointed that I didn't contribute more this week. Two years' time, we'll give it another go again. Sorry for swearing back then as well. Oh my god, I love him. That was so interesting. That was like the opposite of diffusion of responsibility, right? The opposite of like, I'm just going to anonymously hold back while everybody else does the work because there's a bunch of us here.
等等，你刚才说这些队里有多少人？每队有12个人。罗里一向都是最优秀的选手之一，正如你可能在采访中听到的那样，直到最后一天他赢得了单人赛。他之前的比赛都没赢，这有点不常见。我喜欢他很久了，因为他思考深刻，口才出众。他读书，不只是谈论高尔夫，也讨论各种想法。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Wait, how many people did you say are on these teams? They're 12 on a team and Rory is historically one of the best, as you could maybe hear in that interview until this final day when he won his singles match. He hadn't won his matches, which is a little bit rare. I've liked him for a long time because he's unusually thoughtful and well-spoken. He reads books. He talks about ideas, not just golf.
我在想，我对这次采访如此着迷和感动，是因为我对他有好感，还是因为这次采访本身确实特别吸引人。你看，我现在对他有好感。首先，他为此流泪了。他提到自己对个人表现并没有太多情绪或关注，但对团队的表现却非常在意。现在他流泪了，因为他确实非常关心这件事。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So I was wondering if maybe I was so attracted and moved by this interview because I'm attracted to him or whether it was on its own, unusually compelling. I mean, look, I'm attracted to him now. First of all, he's crying about this. He talks about like he doesn't really get emotional or really care as much about his own personal performance. But what the team is doing actually matters enormously to him. And now he is crying, right, because he actually does care that much about it.
这真是非同寻常。这个观点完全与人们的直觉相反。就像，你为什么会在意这个全明星团队呢？你只是其中的十二分之一。这甚至不像一个真正的运动队，可以一次又一次地比赛。他们组建起来，然后又解散，接着就是一个完全不同的团队。所以，对我而言，这说明了许多关于作为团队一员的心理。再次，我确实认为这与责任扩散或社会惰化形成对比。或许这就是科勒效应。我一直相信，斯蒂芬，没有什么能比成为一个完成任务的团队的一部分更令人兴奋，而且你在其中扮演着独特的角色。当你把自己的部分做到极致时，你并不是获得个人金牌，而是你的团队赢得了接力赛。并不是所有奥林匹克项目都有这种情况，但在游泳和体操中，有团队与个人比赛相对应的模式。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
That is extraordinary. That is the opposite of what people's intuitions would be. Like, why do you care about this all-star team? You're only one-twelfth of it. It's not even like a real sports team where you compete over and over and over again. They assemble and then they dissipate and then it's a totally different team. So to me, this says a lot about the psychology of being part of a group. Again, I do think it's the flip side of diffusion responsibility or social loafing. Maybe it's the Kohler effect. I mean, I have long believed this, Stephen, that nothing really beats the feeling of being part of a group that is accomplishing a task and that you're doing your unique part. When you do your part really well, it's not that you get the individual gold medal. It's that your team wins the relay. Not all Olympic sports have it, but swimming and gymnastics where there's the team analog of the individual.
这样做的心理是什么呢？在某种程度上，它一定比单独赢得胜利更甜美。有趣的是，在这个例子中，他们输了。然而，他与团队的联系却似乎变得更紧密了。这让我想起了你所描述的东西。高尔夫本质上是个人运动。即使有团体比赛，也通常只有你和另一个球员。但成为一个更大团队的一员，提前一两周一起相处，培养默契，满怀期待地准备迎接胜利，结果却输了。更有趣的是，正如你指出的，他说他根本不在乎个人奖杯，尽管这显然是夸张了。我本来想说他是在夸大其词。但相对来说，他已经赢得了三次主要的冠军。令人感兴趣的是，尽管他已经在个人项目中取得了如此高的成就，但在团队比赛中失利时，他还是感到极其失望。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
What is the psychology of doing that? It's got to be in some ways sweeter than winning individually. And it's so interesting because in this case, they lost. And yet his connection to the team seemed like it got even stronger. It made me think along the lines of what you've been describing. Golf happens to be an individual sport primarily. And even when there are team events, it's usually you and one other player. But to be a member of a larger team where you're spending a week or two ahead of time bonding, getting excited, looking forward to victory and then getting beaten like this. What was so interesting is, as you noted, he said he couldn't give a s**t about the individual trophies, which is certainly an exaggeration. I was going to say he's being hyperbolic. But yes, relatively speaking. But he's won three of the major championships. What's so interesting is having done that, having achieved at a very high level as an individual and to see how gutted he is when it becomes a team sport.
这让我思考了社交关系及其强大的力量。作为美国人，许多人受到一种“坚韧的个人主义”观念的影响。我们从小就被教导要独立完成事情，并为此感到自豪，同时也要承担责任。但对我来说，这次经历让我看到了人与人之间关系和连接的温情一面。即使在失去中，我们也能感受到深深的、积极的情感连接。我感到非常感动。我认为人们热爱运动，包括观赏体育的原因之一是，运动似乎是人类情感的熔炉。它像是我们日常所经历的一切情感的浓缩版，没有过多的干扰。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
It just made me think about social connections and how powerful they are. I think being American, a lot of us absorb this notion of rugged individualism. We've been really taught since we were kids that you do things for yourself and you want to take pride in that and you want to take accountability. But to me, this just showed a human side of relating to other people and being connected to other people. That even in loss, there was this deep, deep, deep well of positive emotion of connection. And I found it extremely moving. I think one of the reasons why people do love sports, including spectator sports, is that it seems to be this crucible of human emotion. It's like everything that we generally experience, but without a lot of distraction in concentrated form.
我读了伟大网球选手亚瑟·阿什的回忆录。我印象深刻的是他谈到成为美国戴维斯杯第一位黑人选手的部分。我对高尔夫不太了解，但听起来戴维斯杯和莱德杯有些相似。对，因为它像是网球界的全明星队，然后跟其他国家比赛。不过，对于他来说，戴维斯杯在情感上以及其他方面的重要性超越了温网。我记得当时想，这究竟是怎么回事？我想，群体心理是非常强大的，我们都有一种本能和直觉，希望成为一个部落或团体的一部分。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I read the memoir of Arthur Ashe, the great tennis player. And I remember being struck by the part where he talks about being the first black player for the U.S. Davis Cup. I don't know much about golf, but it sounds like the Davis Cup has some analog here to the Ryder Cup. Yeah, because it's like teams of all stars in tennis assembled and then you play other countries. Right. But the Davis Cup to him was so important emotionally and in ways that superseded Wimbledon. And I remember thinking, what's going on here? I mean, group psychology is extremely powerful. And I think we all have an instinct and intuition to be part of a tribe, part of a group.
作为一个团队一起获胜，比一个人单独获胜更好。而正如你所指出的，即使作为一个团队输掉比赛，在某些方面也可能比个人获胜更具意义。另一件让我觉得很有趣的事情是他的哭泣，他也注意到了这一点。这是Jimmy Roberts在为NBC采访他。顺便说一下，Jimmy Roberts是谁呢？他是一个非常优秀的体育记者和评论员，与高尔夫球手有不错的关系，对高尔夫也很了解。他自己也打高尔夫。因此，在这次采访中，你能感受到他们之间的熟悉感，甚至是某种默契。我猜，如果不是Jimmy Roberts来采访，Rory可能就不会接受这次采访，因为他在这次采访中表现得很脆弱。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And to win as a group is even better than winning alone. And as you point out, even losing as a group can be in some ways more meaningful experience than winning as an individual. The other thing I thought was so interesting is his crying. And he noted it. So this was Jimmy Roberts interviewing him for NBC. Who's that, by the way? Jimmy Roberts is just a really good human scale reporter and commentator on sports. He's got a relationship with the golfers. He knows a lot about golf. He plays golf. You can feel that there was some familiarity, if not chemistry here. And I'm guessing that if it hadn't been Jimmy Roberts, then Rory might not have done this interview because he was very vulnerable.
你知道吗，我们这里看不到视频，但他当时在高尔夫球场的一边。他刚打完球，采访一开始他就几乎泣不成声了。我能听到他在Jimmy Roberts提第一个问题时就在哭。很有趣的是，当你在体育比赛中获胜，因喜悦而流泪，这是完全可以理解的。而当你因失败而哭泣，我觉得这是愿意坦诚并展现脆弱的一种表现，是我们不常见到的。我非常欣赏这一点，虽然这听起来可能有点感性，但我认为在21世纪，当我们谈论行为榜样时，他为我们展现了一种很了不起的示范，就是作为一名男性运动员或体育竞争者，你不需要大男子主义来表现强大。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
You know, we couldn't see the video here, but he was just off the side on the golf course. He had just finished playing and he was already just about crying when they started the interview. I could hear the crying during Jimmy Roberts' first question here. What was so interesting is when you win in sports and you weep tears of joy, that's 100% kosher. When you cry when you lose, I think that is a willingness to be not just candid, but vulnerable in a way that we do not see. And what I really like about that, I mean, this may sound a little bit mushy, but I think in the 21st century, when we talk about modeling behavior, he's making a pretty amazing demonstration that to be a male athlete or a sports competitor, you don't have to be macho to be strong.
我实际上认为，这一点可能和他提到的团队合作的重要性一样有价值。Steven，关于这方面的研究完全验证了你的直觉：当小女孩看到一个女性做某件事情时，她们受到的影响更大，而不是看到男性时。这部分是因为人们试图搞清楚像自己这样的人会做什么。此外，这种情况也适用于种族和其他群体身份。所以，一个强壮又备受尊敬的运动员流下失望的泪水，为团队的失利而哭泣，感受到这些情感，我觉得这非常棒，我完全同意。而且他为说脏话而道歉，真是太可爱了。我心想，这下完美了，快给他加上奶油和坚果，再来颗红樱桃。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And I actually think that may be as valuable as the point he made about the connectivity of being part of that team. Steven, the research on modeling completely affirms your intuition that like when a little girl sees a woman do something, they're more strongly influenced than if they see a guy. And it's partly because you're trying to figure out what people like me do, by the way, this also holds for race and other group memberships. So, yeah, to be a big, strong guy who's really well-respected as an athlete and then to weep in disappointment, to weep for the loss of your team, to have these feelings. I think it's great. I totally agree. And how cute was it that he apologized for swearing? Oh, I was like, there you go. Whipped cream and nuts on top. Somebody go grab a maraschino cherry.
你知道，我很喜欢制作《怪诞经济学电台》，我们有一个团队，包括制作人和音频工程师，大家一起合作完成这个节目。但当我在麦克风前讲话时，无论是录制旁白、与听众交流还是进行采访，那都是我在讲话。我喜欢这个节目的一个原因是它体现了我们的团队合作。首先，我可以在很多时候偷个懒，因为有很多事情我可以暂时放一放，比如说磨磨指甲。不过，我喜欢Duckner和Dubworth团队，我喜欢成为这个团队的一员。即使我们有时候会失败，我们并不是每次都能一击即中，但我仍然觉得这非常有成就感。谢谢你们让我成为你们的一员。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
You know, I love making Freakonomics Radio and we have a team. We have producers and we have engineers and it is a collaborative effort. But when I'm talking on the microphone, whether recording narration, talking to the listener or in an interview, it's me. This show, one reason I love it is it's us. And first of all, I get to social loaf a lot because, you know, a lot of stuff. I can just sit back when I need to. Yeah, filing your nails. But I like team Duckner, Dubworth. I like being part of this team. And even when we lose, which, you know, we do now and again, we don't hit a hole in one every time. I find it incredibly satisfying. So thanks for letting me be on your team.
团队的好处在于，它也可以产生相反的效果，对吧？可以说是"一举两得"。广告之后，我们将对今天的谈话进行事实核查。现在，以下是对今天谈话的事实核查。
安吉拉说，她认为“林格曼效应”这个名字来源于一位研究人类和机器生产力的农民。实际上，他的头衔要稍微更显赫一些。马西米利安·林格曼是一位法国农业工程教授。他关于社会惰性的开创性研究发表于1913年。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
The great thing about teams is that it works the other way, too, right? Two for one, as it were. Coming up after the break, a fact check of today's conversation. And now, here's a fact check of today's conversations. Angela says that she thinks the Ringelman Effect is named after a farmer who studied the productivity of men and machines. In reality, he had a slightly more impressive title. Maximilien Ringelman was a French professor of agricultural engineering. His seminal study of social loafing was published in 1913.
后来，安吉拉分享了两种将盘子送到大楼二楼的方法。她说你可以爬一段楼梯，也可以“爬到八楼，然后再下七段楼梯”。听众可能注意到，这第二种方法实际上会让你回到一楼。如果要从八楼将盘子送到二楼，你需要下六段楼梯。不管怎样，显然第一种方法更好。接下来，安吉拉多次将美国森林服务局用于预防野火的象征称为“Smokey the Bear”（熊史莫基）。但其实，这个标志的名字只是“Smokey Bear”（史莫基熊）。斯蒂芬正确地称呼了它，所以尽管他可能对史莫基有意见，但他肯定注意到了这只熊的警示信息。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Later, Angela shares two possible ways to deliver a plate to the second floor of a building. She says you could go up one flight of stairs or, quote, climb to the eighth floor and then climb back down seven flights of stairs. Listeners may have noticed that this second method would simply return you to the first floor. You would need to travel down six flights of stairs to deliver a plate from the eighth floor to the second floor. Regardless, the first option is clearly the better one. Next, Angela repeatedly refers to the U.S. Forest Service's symbol for its wildfire prevention campaign as Smokey the Bear. However, the icon's name is simply Smokey Bear. Stephen refers to him correctly, so while he may have issues with Smokey, Stephen was certainly paying attention to the bear's messages.
安吉拉说她认为“科勒效应”是以一个名叫Kohler的人命名的，而不是以生产科勒卫浴产品的公司命名的。她说的没错。科勒公司是一家以生产管道产品闻名的制造公司，由实业家约翰·迈克尔·科勒于1873年创立的。最后，斯蒂芬说他认为爱尔兰高尔夫球手罗里·麦克罗伊接近30岁，但实际上麦克罗伊已经32岁了。以上就是事实核查的全部内容。《No Stupid Questions》是Freakonomics Radio Network的一部分，由Freakonomics Radio制作。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Also, Angela says that she believes that the Kohler effect is named for a person named Kohler, but not the namesake of Kohler toilets. This is correct. Kohler Company, the manufacturing company known for its plumbing products, was founded by industrialist John Michael Kohler in 1873. Finally, Stephen says that he believes the Irish golfer Rory McIlroy is in his late 20s. McIlroy is actually 32 years old. That's it for the fact check. No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network and is produced by Freakonomics Radio.
这集 "No Stupid Questions" 是由我，Rebecca Lee Douglas 制作的。我们的主题曲是 Talking Heads 的 "And She Was"，特别感谢 David Byrne 和 Warner Chapel Music。如果你对未来的节目有任何问题，请通过电子邮件发送至 nsq@freakonomics.com。如果你听到 Stephen 或 Angela 提到了某项研究、专家或书籍，并想了解更多信息，可以访问 freakonomics.com/nsq，我们在那儿提供了今天节目中提到的所有主要参考资料的链接。感谢收听。这里需要一个音效，“Ringelman 效应”。 Freakonomics Radio Network，一切事物的隐藏面。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
This episode of No Stupid Questions was produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas. Our theme song is And She Was by Talking Heads. Special thanks to David Byrne and Warner Chapel Music. If you have a question for a future episode, please email it to nsq at freakonomics.com. And if you heard Stephen or Angela reference a study, an expert, or a book that you'd like to learn more about, you can check out freakonomics.com slash nsq, where we link to all of the major references that you heard about here today. Thanks for listening. That needs a sound effect, the Ringelman effect. The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.