What Would Steven Say? | The Lila Astrology Podcast
发布时间 2026-03-16 01:29:52 来源
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And he's just missing some pieces, you know, of the puzzle and all science, all scientists are and they celebrate that. It's like, what's the next piece we're going to discover? Well, Neil de Grasthaisen, I got a guess about the next piece you might discover and it's how the universe exists in your mind and your mind exists in the universe and we cannot separate the two.
他只是少了几块拼图，你知道的，所有科学都是这样，所有科学家也是这样，他们为此感到兴奋。他们想知道下一个发现的拼图是什么。就像是，“尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森，我猜测你可能会发现的下一个拼图是，宇宙如何存在于你的思想中，而你的思想又如何存在于宇宙中。这两者无法分割。”
Hi, Steve. Hey, Linda. OK, so thanks for agreeing to meet with me today. The reason why I asked is because the Lila team has noticed that with increasing frequency, we're hearing the topic of astrology pop up in discussions on podcasts and major podcasts like Joe Rogan's podcast, diary of a CEO, the astrophysicist, Neil de Grasthaisen's podcast and what we've noticed is that the discussion usually involves people who have not really studied astrology in any real form or fashion and we found ourselves listening to these and thinking like, man, if only Stephen Forrest was sitting in the room with these people, you know, the conversations would just be so much more rich and enlightening.
你好，Steve。你好，Linda。感谢你们同意今天与我会面。我之所以邀请你们，是因为Lila团队注意到，越来越多地在播客讨论中出现了星座学的话题，甚至在一些大型播客中，比如Joe Rogan的播客、《CEO日记》和天体物理学家Neil deGrasse Tyson的播客中都有提到。我们发现，通常参与这些讨论的人并没有真正学习过星座学。我们听到这些讨论时常常在想，如果Stephen Forrest能够参与这些讨论，那对话将会变得更加丰富和启发性。
Though two sided. Yes, exactly. There's that. So with that in mind, you know, I thought I could read to you a few snippets from some of these conversations and I can roleplay as the person speaking who asked the question or made the comment and then you can respond as you would as if you were sitting there. So how does that sound? Sounds wonderful. Let's dive in. OK, let's do it. OK, so we're going to start with Joe Rogan. I've watched many of his podcast episodes. I do really appreciate his open mind and his curiosity and his interest in understanding diverse topics.
虽然有双面性。是的，确实如此。考虑到这一点，我想我可以给你读一些这些对话的片段，我会扮演提问或评论的人，然后你可以像身临其境一样作出回应。你觉得怎么样？听起来很棒。让我们开始吧。好的，我们开始吧。首先，我们来聊聊乔·罗根。我看了他很多期播客，真的很欣赏他开放的思维、好奇心以及对理解各种主题的兴趣。
So in an episode not too long ago, he was speaking with his guest Matthew McConaughey. And here's what he said to him. He said, I actually just reached out to my booking guy to try and get a real astrologer on the show, someone who really understands the ancient art of astrology, the real old stuff, because I'm not completely discounting it. I think newspaper horoscopes are nonsense, but I always wonder, astrology is so specific. Like, why did they write, write that down? Why did they have this understanding of how the stars are aligned at the time of your birth? What part of the earth you're at?
在不久前的一期节目中，他与嘉宾马修·麦康纳对谈。以下是他对马修说的话。他说：“我其实刚刚联系了我的预订人员，想在节目中邀请一位真正的占星师，一位真正了解古老占星术的人，因为我并不完全排斥它。我觉得报纸上的星座运势是胡扯，但我总是很好奇，为什么占星术如此具体？为什么他们要写下这些？为什么他们会理解在你出生时星星的排列方式？你所在的地球位置又有什么影响呢？”
So it seems like he's aware that birthplace and location is important. Would you like to comment on that? And how would you have answered that if you were with him? Absolutely. First, Joe, if you're out there listening, you know, I'm your man. You know, I would love to be on your show. I would love to talk with you. I appreciate your, your open mind, which is so rare. Astrology is one of those subjects where it seems the less people know about it, the stronger their opinions are.
看起来他意识到出生地和地理位置的重要性。你对此有什么看法吗？如果你在现场，你会怎么回答？当然可以。首先，Joe，如果你在听，我就是你的人。我非常希望能上你的节目，与您交流。我很欣赏你的开放思维，这在今天非常罕见。占星学就是这样一个领域，似乎人们对它了解得越少，意见反而越多。
And so it's a real relief to hear your, your open mind and attitude, a point of quibble or clarification would be, you'd like to get one of those real, old kind of ancient astrologers on the air. I want to say, you know, we're alive and well. Now there's plenty of, plenty of astrologers on the planet. Now the roots of astrology, of course, are in fact ancient, but it's not that we haven't learned anything in the last couple of thousand years. You know, there are people who practice the astrology of Greece 2000 years ago.
听到你持有开放的态度和心态，真是让人感到欣慰。不过，我想稍微纠正或说明一下，你可能希望能请到那些真正古老的占星师上节目。我想说，其实现在我们也很活跃，当今世界上有很多占星师。尽管占星术的起源确实可以追溯到古代，但并不意味着在过去几千年里我们没有学习到新的东西。你知道，现在仍然有人在实践两千年前古希腊的占星术。
And it seems to have validity. I have no argument with them. But what I do is a modern astrology, one tremendous breakthrough we had. This one's a pressure too much. But nowadays we know what time it is 2000 years ago. Nobody knew what time it was. And we had no clocks. And so the time becomes absolutely critical in astrology. I would be proud to represent a modern psychological, metaphysical kind of astrology on your show. And I guarantee my presentation would be compelling for anyone who had an open mind, such as yourself.
这似乎是合理的。我对此没有异议。但我所研究的是现代占星术，这是我们取得的一个巨大突破。这样的压力实在太大了。但是，如今我们知道2000年前的确切时间，而那时没有人知道，也没有钟表。因此，在占星术中，时间变得至关重要。我会很自豪地在您的节目中展示一种现代心理学和形而上学相结合的占星术。我保证，我的演讲一定会引人入胜，尤其是对于那些像您一样心态开放的人来说。
Yeah, no doubt. Okay. Great. Okay, now we're going to move over to the podcast called a diary of the CEO. The host of that podcast is also named Steven Steven Bartlett. And he said to his guest who at the time was Neil deGrasse Tyson, he said, do I. I've got some stats for you here, Neil. Surveys find that roughly 80% of Gen Z believe in astrology to some degree. 72% of those Gen Z and millennials allow astrology to influence major life decisions like romance, health, work, and education.
好的，没问题。现在我们要转向一个名为《CEO 日记》的播客。这个播客的主持人也叫史蒂芬，史蒂芬·巴特利特。他对当时的嘉宾尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森说：“我这里有些统计数据要给你看，尼尔。调查发现，大约80%的Z世代在某种程度上相信占星术。在这些Z世代和千禧一代中，72%的人让占星术影响他们在恋爱、健康、工作和教育等重大生活决定。”
And many Gen Zs are now checking their horoscopes weekly. In response, Neil says, we live in a free country. So I'm not going to try to stop them. What would be sad is if that number got to 100% and then you wouldn't be generating scientists or engineers or people who the objective truths of the world matter. Here to comment. Where to begin? You know, first off, the idea that there is some polarization, natural polarization between somebody who believes in astrology and somebody who has enough brains in their head to be, you know, stem technician, the science technology, engineering, mathematics.
许多Z世代（指出生于1997年至2012年间的一代）现在每周都会查看他们的星座运势。对此，Neil表示，我们生活在一个自由的国家，所以我不会试图阻止他们。令人遗憾的是，如果这种趋势达到了100%，那么可能就不会再有科学家、工程师或那些重视世界客观真理的人出现了。对此我们该如何评论呢？首先，要知道，认为相信占星术的人和那些在科学、技术、工程和数学领域有才智的人之间存在某种自然对立，这种想法本身就是有问题的。
It's a false distinction. I just, just, I mean, astrology is a really complicated system. It's hard to learn. And even if you don't believe in it, we would realize that anybody who learns the system is in the top half of the class. You know, we need to understand mathematics and geometrical concepts. And the idea that we have to be dumb to believe in astrology or to practice it is indefensible.
这是一个错误的区分。我只是想说，或者说，星座学实际上是一个非常复杂的体系，很难学。而且即使你不相信它，我们也可以认识到，任何学会这个体系的人其实都属于班级的前半部分。你知道，我们需要理解数学和几何概念。认为相信星座学或者实践它的人就是愚蠢的，这种观点是站不住脚的。
I would also challenge Dr. Tyson here on the dismissal of the 80% of Gen Z people who find astrology useful. If it's completely false and doesn't work and they find it useful, they're dumb. You know, it would follow. And so he's basically saying 80% of the Gen Z people, you know, are making this terrible logical blunder. They're making a mistake. They're blind. They are dumb. I'm putting words in his mouth. It's probably he object and say, no, that's not what I meant. But it is very clearly the implication.
我也要在这里质疑泰森博士，他对80%认为占星术有用的Z世代人群的轻视。如果占星术完全是假的，不起作用，而他们却觉得有用，那就说明他们很愚蠢。你知道，这个逻辑推理是这样进行的。因此，他基本上是在说，80%的Z世代人在犯一个可怕的逻辑错误。他们在犯错，他们是盲目的，他们很愚蠢。我这么说可能是在给他强加观点，他可能会反对，说这不是他的本意。但这显然是隐含的意思。
These Gen Z folks are observing their lives with full human intelligence and they're seeing the correlations with astrology. And that's why it works. That's how it proves itself. I've never met anyone who had these two traits. First, they didn't believe in astrology. And second, they actually had any experience of it. I would challenge Neil deGrasse Tyson to tell me about his astrological education. I think it probably doesn't exist. I think he's dismissing it, dismissing the whole system because it seems implausible to him as he looks at it through the scientific paradigm.
这些Z世代的年轻人正用完整的人类智慧观察自己的生活，并且发现了与占星术之间的关联。这也是为什么占星术对他们有效的原因，它通过这种方式证明了自身的价值。我从没见过具备以下两个特点的人：首先，他们不相信占星术；其次，他们实际上在生活中体验过占星术。我想挑战尼尔·德葛拉斯·泰森（著名科学家），让他谈谈他的占星学教育。我觉得他可能并没有接受过这样的教育。他之所以全盘否定占星术，是因为在科学的视角下，这个体系对他来说似乎不太合理。
This is a big subject, but I can make it sound plausible through the scientific paradigm if it gave me a chance to do it. Yeah. In that same conversation with Stephen Barlett. And I believe Stephen Bartlett is a millennial. I believe he's in his 30s. Um, so he listened and then he responded and said, well, is there anything that you've learned Neil deGrasse Tyson that the universe does to influence us?
这是一个很大的话题，但如果给我机会，我可以通过科学范式让它听起来更有道理。在与Stephen Bartlett的同一次对话中，我相信Stephen Bartlett是个千禧一代，他应该三十多岁。嗯，他听了我的话，然后回应道：“Neil deGrasse Tyson，你有没有学到什么关于宇宙如何影响我们的知识？”
And Neil replies, yeah, the sun rises and I wake up because I want to be awake during the day. The tide comes in and I move my beach chair back because the tide came in. Yeah, there are things that influence my behavior, but it's not much more than that. The earth is tipped on its axis. So we have seasons. I buy coats and wear them in the winter. That influences my behavior.
尼尔回答说，是啊，太阳升起时我就醒来，因为我想在白天保持清醒。潮水涨上来时，我会把沙滩椅往回挪，因为潮水涨了。是的，确实有一些事情会影响我的行为，但也就这么多了。地球倾斜，这就是为什么我们有四季。我在冬天买大衣，并在冬天穿上。这也会影响我的行为。
Well, it's a witty answer and I appreciate that he's recognizing some kind of celestial influence upon his life, even if it's only sunrise. Again, let me just dive right in here. So Neil, I want to imagine you go outside one night. You look in the sky and there's what appears to be a bright star. It's actually the planet Jupiter. You're an astronomer. You know that. Think about what's going on.
好的，这是一个颇具机智的回答，我欣赏他能够意识到生活中某种天体影响，即便仅仅是日出的影响。再说一次，让我直接进入正题。那么，尼尔，我想象一下你某天晚上走到外面。你抬头望向天空，看到似乎是一颗明亮的星星。实际上，它是木星。你是一位天文学家，你知道这点。想想这是怎么回事。
Energy is coming from the cloud deck of Jupiter at 186,000 miles a second and crashing into your retina, creating measurable electrochemical changes in your brain, which is a fancy way of saying we can see it. The idea that the planets don't affect us is simply incorrect. The premise upon which astrology rests is that we interact with the celestial environment in more complex ways than simply through our eyeballs.
能量以每秒186,000英里的速度从木星的云层传来，撞击到你的视网膜，导致你的大脑产生可测量的电化学变化，这就是说我们能够看到它。认为行星对我们没有影响的观念是错误的。占星术的基础是我们与天体环境的互动方式远比通过眼睛看到的复杂。
And I think anyone with the slightest claim to an open mind is not going to be converted to astrology by that sentence, but they're going to say, show me what you've got. And I would be delighted to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And in that same conversation, the last piece, Stephen continued to press him on the astrology questions.
我认为任何稍微自称有开放思维的人都不会因为那句话就被星座学说服，而是会说，给我看看你有什么证据。我会很乐意这样做。在同一次对话中，最后一部分，Stephen继续向他追问关于星座的问题。
And he asked him Neil deGrasse Tyson what his sun sign is. You know, he just said, what's your sign? And Neil didn't answer him directly and said, instead, I once had someone tell me, I'm enjoying your astrophysics class. And I want you to know I'm an astrologer. And I'm taking the class so I can cast horoscopes better. What's your sign?
他问尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森他的太阳星座是什么。你知道的，他就是问：“你是什么星座？”尼尔并没有直接回答他，而是说，有一次有人对我说：“我很喜欢你的天体物理课。我想告诉你，我是一个占星师，我来上这门课是为了更好地推算星座运势。你的星座是什么？”
The student was asking him. I said, shouldn't you be able to figure out my sun sign? If all this works and you cast horoscopes, you ought to tell me what my sign is. And she said, OK, OK. Are you a Gemini? And I said, no, cancer. No, must be Leo. I said, no, eight horoscopes later, she gets the correct answer and says, I knew it. Comment on that.
学生在问他。我说，你不应该能算出我的太阳星座吗？如果这些算命方法有效，你应该能告诉我我的星座是什么。然后她说，好吧，好吧。你是双子座吗？我说，不，是巨蟹座。她接着说，那一定是狮子座。我说，不是，经过八次猜错后，她终于猜对了答案，然后说，我早就知道是这个星座。对此，你怎么看呢？
Well, you know, two, two shade, two shade, Neil deGrasse Tyson. I think I would actually have fun talking with him because I mean, that's a good story. And a comment, first, the sun sign is just one fairly tiny piece of the astrological puzzle. It's specifically, I hope I don't get too techy here.
好的，你知道的，致敬，致敬，Neil deGrasse Tyson。我觉得如果能和他聊天应该会很有趣，因为那是个不错的故事。我要先说一下，太阳星座只是占星学拼图中的一个很小的部分。具体来说，我希望这里不会显得太过专业。
But the planet Mercury, messenger of the gods is the ruler of the sign Gemini, which basically means the words we'd used to describe one, we used to describe the other. Now Neil deGrasse Tyson is a Libra. He's actually a Libra with a sun Mercury conjunction, really tight. Mercury was lined up like a cat's whisker away from his sun. So even though he's a Libra, he's a Mercury style Libra.
行星水星，在神话中是众神的信使，同时也是双子座的主宰星。这基本上意味着，我们用来描述双子座的词汇也用于描述水星。现在，尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森是一个天秤座。他实际上是一个太阳与水星紧密相合的天秤座。水星几乎与他的太阳排列在一条直线上。所以，虽然他是天秤座，但他表现出更多水星的特质。
And this sun sign astrologer actually kind of fell into a trap, but made a pretty good guess. You know, read the energy of Mercury intelligence, language, questions, curiosity, Neil deGrasse Tyson. She read that accurately in him, but she fell into the oldest trap in the world for astrologers, which is to forget that our system is a lot more complicated than sun signs. You know, people criticize astrology and say, divides everybody into 12 boxes, you know, and obviously that's crude. In defense of it, I'm mostly going to attack it, but in defense of it, we use words like introvert and extrovert, usefully all the time every day, dividing the world into two boxes. You know, so even a 12-fold system is of some use as a typology.
这位太阳星座的占星家实际上有点掉进了一个陷阱，但她做出了一个相当不错的猜测。她能够准确地感受到水星所代表的智慧、语言、问题以及好奇心，这些特质在尼尔·德葛拉斯·泰森身上都能体现出来。然而，她犯了占星学中最古老的错误之一，就是忘记了我们的系统远比简单的太阳星座复杂得多。有人批评占星学，说它把每个人都分成12个盒子，这显然过于粗糙了。为了给它辩护，我甚至要批评它，但同时，为它辩护的一点是，我们每天都在有用地使用像内向者和外向者这样的词语，把世界分成两个盒子。所以，哪怕是一个由12个部分组成的系统，作为一种类型学也是有一定用处的。
But you know, where's a person's moon? Where's their Mercury? Where, you know, what sign was dawning in the east at the time they were born? I never, virtually never, even playfully, guess people's sun signs. It's just such an easy way to generate a big pratfall for yourself, you know. I'd say, show me your chart, and I'll tell you about it. But sun sign astrology is crude at best and subject to many modifications. So I'm sorry, the astrologer fell into that trap. And I would add, I don't blame Neil deGrasse Tyson for asking that question. He's a man of obvious intelligence and he just doesn't know much about astrology. You know, he was convinced it was, you know, who's a Gemini and who's a Leo and who's a Libra?
但是你知道，一个人的月亮星座在哪儿？他们的水星星座在哪儿？在他们出生的时候，东方升起的是哪个星座？我几乎从来不去猜别人的太阳星座，即使是开玩笑。这只是一个容易让自己出丑的办法而已。我会说，给我看你的星盘，我会告诉你关于它的信息。但太阳星座占星术充其量只是个粗略的概述，并且受到许多因素的影响。所以，我很遗憾，那位占星师掉进了这个陷阱。我还要补充说，我不责怪尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森问这个问题。他显然是个很聪明的人，只是对占星术不太了解。他以为占星术就是谁是双子座，谁是狮子座，谁是天秤座。
And he asked his question on that basis and the astrologer fell into the trap of answering it on that basis. That's a bad basis. It misunderstands the system. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if he's, if it's accurate that she gets cancer second, if I'm not mistaken, he's a cancer moon. I could be wrong about that. But I thought, whoever you are out there, if that was you and those were your two guesses, I was pretty good. So, okay. So now we're going to move on to his podcast where he's the host. And it seems that Neil deGrasse Tyson gets a fair amount of questions about astrology, which seemed to annoy him to no end.
他基于这个依据提问，而占星师也掉入了这个依据的陷阱中进行回答。这样的依据不好，它误解了整个系统。如果我没搞错的话，如果她第二个猜是巨蟹座，而他是月亮在巨蟹座的话，我可能记错了，但无论如何，假如你是那个提问的人，而且猜了这两个，我觉得还不错。好了，我们现在要转到他的播客，他是主持人。而且看起来，Neil deGrasse Tyson得到了很多关于占星术的问题，这似乎让他非常烦恼。
And one of his viewers asked about the influence of astrology on our lives. And here's what he said to her. In all fairness to the idea that the universe affects us, just consider what it was like in the pre-scientific era. Do you realize that the brightest star in the night sky is called Sirius? It would rise just before the sun 5,000 years ago. And it happened to do that at the time of the year when the Nile flooded. Enabling the ancient Egyptians to irrigate their lands and their fields. And so you say, here it is, this caused the rise of the Nile. So you can get a correspondence, a correlation, but miss the cause and effect of it.
其中一位观众询问星象对我们生活的影响。他对她说，公平地说，宇宙确实影响着我们。不妨想想在科学尚未发展的时代，你知道夜空中最亮的星叫做天狼星吗？大约5000年前，它会在太阳升起之前出现，而这恰好是在尼罗河泛滥的季节，这使得古埃及人能够灌溉他们的土地和农田。因此，有人会说，这颗星星导致了尼罗河的上涨。我们可以看到关联和对照，但有时却误解了其中的因果关系。
And that's how we went for thousands of years believing that the universe actually cares about us. And cares about who you are and your social life and your financial life. I'm just saying that it's a holdover from a pre-scientific era where we genuinely thought that the earth was in the middle of the known universe. And that it is not, and that is not the case. So the answer is no. None of this has any effect on us at all. That's on that. Again, now his position is fraught with a mis, full of misunderstandings of what we actually do. To the ancient Egyptians, the rising of Sirius indicated the flooding of the Nile. They saw a correlation. They observed the correlation.
这就是为什么我们几千年来都相信宇宙其实是关心我们的。而且还关心你是谁，你的社交生活和经济状况。我只是想说，这是一个从前科学时代遗留下来的观念，当时我们真的以为地球是已知宇宙的中心。然而事实并非如此。所以答案是否定的。这一切对我们根本没有任何影响。这就是那段的意思。再说一遍，他的观点充满了对我们实际做法的误解。对古埃及人来说，天狼星的升起意味着尼罗河的泛滥。他们观察到了这种关联。
And it was correct. It worked when Sirius rose the Nile flood. And it rose at sunset, I believe it was. But the short step from that to someone way back then realizing that the king had a son. The king had a son so long lived the new king. And when the son was born, the planet Mars was rising. And the sun grew up and became warlike. You know, brought warfare to the kingdom. So somebody born with Mars rising, the god of war, they're going to bring war, observe and correlate. Just like Sirius rising, observe and correlate. Nile de Grosthitisian is a scientist, of course, and we honor that.
这是对一段英文的中文翻译，尽量使其易于理解：
这是真的。当天狼星升起的时候，尼罗河就会泛滥。我相信那是在日落时分。当时，有人意识到国王有了一个儿子。王子出生时，火星正在天空中升起。这个儿子长大后，变得好战，把战争带到了王国。因此，有人认为如果一个人在火星升起的时刻出生，他们将带来战争，这与观察并关联天狼星的升起是一样的。尼罗·德·格罗斯提斯安是个科学家，我们对此表示敬意。
So he thinks about cause and effect. That's how scientists think. And we can explain a lot of the universe by cause and effect. But the point is there's a lot of the universe that we can explain in other ways. I'm thinking of the word synchronicity. The fancy word, but just the synchronization of events that are not causally related. Carl Jung, you know, great Carl Jung came up with the term synchronicity, working with the physicist, a young physicist named Wolfgang Pauli.
所以他思考因果关系。这就是科学家思考问题的方式。通过因果关系，我们可以解释宇宙中的许多现象。但关键是，有很多宇宙中的现象可以用其他方式来解释。我想到的是“同步性”这个词。虽然这个词有些专业，但其实指的是一些事件之间的同步性，而这些事件之间并没有因果关系。伟大的心理学家卡尔·荣格提出了“同步性”这个术语，当时他与一个年轻的物理学家沃尔夫冈·泡利一起研究。
And Jung essentially and Pauli realized things happen in this world for two reasons. One is something makes them happen. There is Nile de Grosthitisian's territory. The second was it would be meaningful for it to happen that way. That there are too many coincidences in quotes for the word coincidence to be a reasonable hypothesis. Things are linked together. There's a oneness behind the universe. And so we observe and we correlate serious rises, the flood waters rise. It's a useful marker. Somebody is born with Mars on the ascendant. And we will see competitiveness and energy in them. They may not be warlike, but we will see those qualities. Again, observe and correlate. We're not assuming causality. We're assuming a meaningful connection. This is so basic. This is an absolutely fundamental element of the astrological world view. Synchronicity and correlation. And it lies outside the conventional assumptions of modern science.
荣格和泡利本质上意识到这个世界上的事情发生有两种原因。第一种是某些事情促成了它们的发生，就像尼尔·德·格罗斯·泰森所说的那些。这是因果关系。第二种则是这些事情以这种方式发生是有意义的。有太多的“巧合”，以至于用“巧合”这个词作为合理的假设不太妥当。事物之间是相互联系的，宇宙背后存在一种统一性。因此，我们观察并关联重大事件的发生，例如洪水水位上升作为一个有用的标记。一个人在出生时火星位于上升星座，我们会在他们身上看到竞争性和活力。他们可能不具有战争性质，但我们会看到这些特质。再次，观察并关联。我们并不假设因果关系，而是认为存在一种有意义的联系。这是非常基本的，也是占星学世界观中的一个绝对基本元素——同步性和关联性。而这超出了现代科学的传统假设。
Nile de Grosthitisian is an embodiment of those conventional assumptions. They work well, but I sure would love to expand his mind by sitting with him and explaining his chart to him and watching his jaw drop at the powerful correlations between planetary positions and the story of his life. Right. It's like I hear Ricky say often, you know, your chart doesn't describe you in your personality, which is, you know, what I think a lot of people believe. And I've heard Nile de Grosthitisian refer to that. But it describes certain events, you know, that you're destined to have. And what I love is when, as astrologers, we can look at transits and progressions and see that correlation and that synchronicity happening with a particular date and time and what's happening in the chart and seeing how it comes to life in the person's life.
Nile de Grosthitisian 是那些传统假设的化身。虽然这些假设运作得不错，但我真希望能和他坐下来，给他讲解他的星盘，并看到他因为星球位置与他人生故事之间强大的关联而惊讶不已。没错，我常常听 Ricky 说，你的星盘并不描述你的性格——这就是我认为很多人误解的地方。我也听 Nile de Grosthitisian 提到过。但星盘描述了你命中注定会经历的某些事件。我喜欢的是，当我们作为占星师，可以观察行星运行和推进，看到某个特定日期和时间与星盘上事件的关联和同步性，并观察这些是如何在一个人生活中呈现的。
Exactly. Exactly. The smartest person in history, arguably obviously somewhat controversial, but who's going to get that prize? But on the short list, Johannes Kepler, you know, back in the Renaissance. And he's the one who figured out the mathematics behind planetary orbits. Say, I'm sure Nile de Grosthitisian could explain all about Kepler. And Mr. Kepler, you know, Mr. Logic that Kepler was. And he was living in a time when astrologies star was falling. Right now it's rising, obviously, but it was falling. And he got challenged, you know. So why are you an astrologer? I thought you were a smart guy, you know, basically. And Kepler, this is almost an exact quote. I just love this quote. He said, the unfailing correspondence of events in the heavens and events here on earth has compelled my unwilling belief. He didn't want to believe it, but there it was in his face working. And he was too rational of a person to deny it.
好的。这段文字主要讨论了约翰尼斯·开普勒，虽然他可能并不是被广泛接受的历史上最聪明的人，但无疑是杰出人物之一。开普勒是在文艺复兴时期的一位科学家，他破解了行星轨道背后的数学奥秘。在他的时代，虽然占星术的影响力正在下降，但开普勒仍旧受到人们的质疑：为什么要研究占星术，尽管他以聪明著称。开普勒给出了一个令人印象深刻的回答，尽管他并不想相信，但他不得不承认天象和地球上事件之间的密切联系。这句话体现了他作为一个追求理性和逻辑的人，面对事实不能否认的态度。
Yeah, I feel like I heard some word too that Carl Young. Carl Young was, didn't believe in astrology, but thought I need to, I need to read about it to really understand that and then read about it. And then, you know, became a convert basically after he studied it, you know, that it was sort of a similar, similar sort of way that that happened, you know, for him. Yeah, same story. I was good friends with the man who's deceased now, Robert A. Johnson, who was actually studied directly with Carl Young, died in his 90s, a few years ago. He was a neighbor of mine, just synchronicity, you know, not chance. We were destined to meet. And he said that Young himself had said to Robert A. Johnson, I will never enter into the analytic process with a client without knowing their astrological chart. I've never seen that printed anywhere, but Robert A. Johnson, you know, got it from Young directly.
是的，我感觉我也听说过关于卡尔·荣格的一些事情。卡尔·荣格起初并不相信占星术，但他认为自己需要了解它，于是开始研究。经过研究后，他基本上就被折服了。这个转变过程对他来说也是类似的一个故事。我曾经跟一个已故的朋友罗伯特·A·约翰逊关系很好，他曾直接跟随卡尔·荣格学习，几年前去世，享年90多岁。他曾是我的邻居，这不是偶然，而是一种巧合，我们注定会相遇。罗伯特·A·约翰逊告诉我，荣格曾经对他说过，他绝不会不知晓客户的星象图就进行分析过程。我从未在任何出版物上看到过这句话，但这是罗伯特·A·约翰逊直接从荣格那里听到的。
Yeah, it's fascinating to me how many people out there, it just seems like everyone loves Carl Young, right? It's I have a hard time finding someone who's like, not that guy, not what he says. But and there are a lot of people who follow, read his books, follow his teachings and all that, and yet they don't, they don't seem aware of the astrology piece or if they do, maybe they kind of but that's a big part of who he is in his genius. So it's it's always interesting to me how often he gets discussed without acknowledging that of how core it was to his practice and what he did.
是的，我觉得很有趣的是，似乎很多人都非常喜欢卡尔·荣，对吧？我很难找到不喜欢他或他观点的人。很多人阅读他的书籍，追随他的思想，但他们似乎没有意识到他关于占星学的部分，或者即便知道，也只是略知一二。实际上，占星学是他的重要组成部分，对他的实践和贡献都至关重要。所以，当人们讨论他的时候，却不提及这一核心部分，总是让我感到很有趣。
Yeah. I wish he had been a little more vocal about his support of astrology. He did say some things, you know, that are in print, but he didn't really bang the drum too hard on it. I wish he had right on the other hand, he had enough trouble in his life without finding that war for us. Yeah, exactly. We'll fight it for him now a couple of generations later. Absolutely. Okay, so we have one, I think we have one more, one more Neil deGrasse Tyson. Okay. This actually, okay, and this actually was a question that came from Kelly Clarkson, and this is on the topic of seasons. She was asking him if he'd ever had his chart read and he dismissed it and then she sort of said, well, you know, is there is there any merit in astrology with respect to, for instance, the season you're born in, which I thought that was a great question because we do talk a lot about and follow the seasons.
好的。我希望他能在支持占星学方面更加直言不讳。他确实发表了一些观点，这些观点见诸于文字，但他没有在这方面大力宣传。我希望他能够这样说。但另一方面，他在生活中已经有足够多的麻烦，不需要为了我们再打一场战争。是的，没错。几代人之后，我们现在来为他而战。绝对是这样的。好吧，我想我们还有一个问题，是关于尼尔·德葛拉斯·泰森的。这个问题其实来自凯莉·克拉克森，讨论的话题是季节。她问他有没有做过星盘解析，他否定了。然后她问：“那么，占星学在某方面比如你出生的季节有没有任何意义？”我觉得这是个很好的问题，因为我们确实经常谈论和关注季节。
And Neil said to her, you can imagine long ago, if you're born in the spring or the summer or the fall or the winter as a child, you would have different access to the nutrients of the food that grew on the farm. So if you were born at the wrong time of year, you might be a sickly child because the food was already eaten or spoiled by then. So you can imagine asserting this before anyone knew anything about nutrition. Go far enough back and you'd say, oh, I was born in February when the sun was over here. Therefore, I'll have this personality trait. So you can imagine circumstances of nature, nurture, coming together to influence what kind of a person you might end up being. But that has nothing to do with the sun moon and the stars. It has everything to do with the nutrition of where and when you were born. That's on that.
尼尔对她说，你可以想象，在很久以前，如果你在春天、夏天、秋天或冬天出生，你会有不同的机会获得农场上生长的食物的营养。如果你在一年中的不合适时间出生，可能会因为食物已经被吃光或变质而成为一个体弱多病的孩子。所以可以想象，在人们对营养一无所知的时候，有人提出这样的看法。回到过去，人们可能会说：“哦，我是在二月出生的，那时太阳在这个位置，所以我会有这样的性格特征。”因此，你可以想象，自然环境和后天环境共同影响你将成为什么样的人。但这和日月星辰毫无关系，它完全取决于你出生时的时间和地点的营养条件。这就是这个问题的本质。
Yeah. Well, there's clearly truth in what Tyson is saying there. But refuting it is a piece of cake. I'm going to do it in one word, Australia. Australia. Because in Australia, as I'm sure Tyson is quite aware, the seasons are reversed. And yet the same astrological principles are demonstrably workable and effective for people born in Australia, South Africa, South America, you know, etc. The seasons reverse, but the signs do not reverse in meaning in this other hemisphere. End of story as far as that goes. I'd be quick to acknowledge that dietary issues in utero, etc. naturally have effect upon a person's character. I'm not saying what he's saying is incorrect. It's probably less true today than it was when we were living closer to nature. You know, didn't have the supermarket around the corner and the thermostat on the wall. But you know, some truth in what he says, but it's not a refutation of astrology. Astrology works quite independently of our hemisphere.
好的，很明显，泰森所说的确有一些道理。但要反驳他其实很简单，我用一个词就能做到：澳大利亚。澳大利亚。因为在澳大利亚（我相信泰森肯定也很清楚），季节是相反的。然而，对于在澳大利亚、南非、南美洲等地出生的人来说，相同的占星原则依然是显而易见有效的。季节是相反的，但在另一个半球，星座的含义并没有颠倒。这就是故事的结尾。至于其他方面，我很快会承认，子宫内的饮食问题等自然会对一个人的性格产生影响。我并不是说他所说的是不正确的。相比我们贴近自然生活的过去，现在这可能不那么真实。那时候我们的身边没有超市和墙上的恒温器。但他说的话有些道理，只是那并不是对占星术的反驳。占星术在不同半球之间运行得都很好。
Yeah. That's I didn't even think about that. That's right. Well, that's that's all the questions we've amassed just in this past week. And I did notice sort of a theme here and it made me think of, you know, one of your most popular quotes is when you said astrology is just astronomy inside out. Instead of the mind trying to comprehend the universe, we use the universe as a key to comprehending the mind. Exactly. And that's what this sort of this feels a little bit in that realm and and, um, you know, I think there can be some people who might feel that astrology is it's been called egocentric or it's not all about you. The universe doesn't doesn't care so much, but I really do see how we are using it to understand the nature of the human mind.
是的，我甚至都没有想到这一点。没错。这就是我们在过去一周内收集到的所有问题。我注意到这里有一个主题，让我想起了你的一句最著名的话，那就是你说占星术就是“反转的天文学”。不是用心智去理解宇宙，而是用宇宙作为理解心智的钥匙。确实，这有点像在那个领域。你知道，有些人可能认为占星术被称为以自我为中心，或者说它不是完全关于个人的，宇宙并不那么在意我们。但我真的看到我们在用它来理解人类心灵的本质。
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The sky and the mind are like two mirrors facing each other, built around the same laws and locked in a kind of resonance with each other. I mean, that's the whole thing in just a few words. Yeah. Well, thank you for answering these questions and commenting on all of these, um, you know, there'll be plenty more coming coming across our desk. So hopefully we can do this again with you and we won't. I'd love to. I'd love to. I'd love to. I hope our friends uh, Neil de Grasse Tyson and Joe Rogan get wind of this. You know, I'd like to hear it and see what they had to say. I'd love to talk with them. Oh, yeah. I just think those would be some of the most interesting conversations.
是的，完全同意。天空和心灵就像两面相对的镜子，由相同的法则构建，在某种共鸣中相互锁定。我的意思是，这就是全部内容的简要概括。好的，非常感谢你回答这些问题并对此发表评论。我们桌上将会有更多这样的内容出现。希望我们能再一次与你交流。我非常愿意这样做。我希望我们的朋友Neil de Grasse Tyson和Joe Rogan能得知此事，我想听听他们的看法。我很想和他们交流。哦，是的，我觉得那将是一些最有趣的对话。
Yeah. And done in such a respectful debate and mutual respect of each other and the and the different, um, methodologies that you all have become experts in. So yeah. And I had the feeling Joe Rogan would be easier to talk to because he expressed some openness. Neil de Grasse Tyson, it would be, uh, I'd be confident of everything I had to say to him, but I also got the feeling I'd be walking up against a kind of a brick wall of established opinion in him.
是的，大家进行了这样一个相互尊重的辩论，并对彼此的不同方法论表现出了尊重。而且，我觉得和Joe Rogan交谈会更容易一些，因为他表现出了一些开放的态度。至于Neil deGrasse Tyson，我对自己要说的话有信心，但我也有种感觉，跟他交流时会遇到一种很坚定的既有观点的“墙”。
He has an axe to grind against astrology. I'd love, I'd love for him to understand how, you know, well, he has a passionate love of astronomy. I do too. You know, I read astronomy magazine every every month, you know, I have ever since I was a kid, Sky and Telescope in the old days. And so I keep up with that stuff and I get it. The universe and the human attempt to understand it. Wow, you know, I mean, I'd love to shake Neil de Grasse Tyson's hand for his good work, you know, as far as getting that awe and wonder and sense of magic out to the world.
他对占星术有些偏见。我真希望他能理解，而事实上，他非常热爱天文学。我也是。我每个月都会看《天文学》杂志，从小时候开始就是这样，过去还看《天空与望远镜》。所以我一直在关注这些东西，我能够理解。宇宙以及人类对它的探索，真是让人赞叹不已。我真的很想和尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森握手，感谢他在传播宇宙之美和奇妙方面所做的优秀工作。
He's just missing some pieces, you know, of the puzzle and all science, all scientists are and they celebrate that. It's like, what's the next piece we're going to discover? Well, Neil de Grasse Tyson, I got a guess about the next piece you might discover. And it's how the universe exists in your mind and your mind exists in the universe and we cannot separate the two.
他只是缺少了一些拼图的碎片，你知道的，其实所有科学和所有科学家都是这样，他们为此而感到兴奋。这就像是在问，接下来会发现什么碎片呢？那么，Neil deGrasse Tyson，我猜您可能会发现的下一个碎片是：宇宙如何存在于您的思维中，而您的思维又如何存在于宇宙中，我们无法将两者分开。
Yeah, that's right. Well, thank you Steve. You're welcome.
好的，对，是这样的。谢谢你，史蒂夫。不客气。