On homosexuality | J. Krishnamurti
发布时间 2018-12-08 08:55:04 来源
中英文字稿 
There are many people who have considerable difficulty with the fact of homosexuality, who have considerable difficulties with the fact of homosexuality, teachers for centuries have avoided this question. I have travelled, could you please even briefly put some answer this question, I have travelled two thousand years miles towards this question. Sorry, quite right. I have travelled two thousand years. This has been a question for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. This isn't something new. How would we are not taking sides in this matter? We don't condemn it or approve it or disapprove it, these are facts. Right? As heterosexuality is a fact. Homosexuality exists in the world, in different parts of the world, very common. Other parts of the world is practically unknown.
有很多人对同性恋的事实感到非常困惑，教师们几个世纪以来都在回避这个问题。我曾经深入探讨过这个问题。抱歉，说得对，我已经在这个问题上徘徊了两千年。这个问题已经存在了成千上万年，并不是新的现象。我们在这个问题上不持任何立场，也不谴责、不赞成或不反对，这就是事实。对吧？就像异性恋是个事实一样。同性恋在世界上存在，在某些地区非常普遍，在其他地区则几乎不为人知。
So how do you answer this question? What is the question? Why do we make it into such an enormous problem? Apparently we don't make heterosexuality a problem at all, but we make this into a problem. Why? Which is a fact. So should we enquire into this question, into heterosexuality, in homosexuality differently? Not condemn one or the other or approve one and deny the other, but enquire why sexuality both become such a lost, socially important. Right? Why? You answer this question. Intellivation, magazines, is very bestseller as this element in it, in detail, every day.
那么，你如何回答这个问题呢？问题是什么？为什么我们把它变成一个如此巨大的问题？显然，我们并没有把异性恋视为一个问题，但我们却把这个变成了一个问题。为什么？这就是事实。那么我们应该以不同的方式探讨异性恋和同性恋吗？不是去谴责或赞成其中之一，而是探讨为什么性变成了如此迷失的、社会上重要的话题。对吗？为什么？你来回答这个问题。电视、杂志每天详细报道这个元素，现在非常畅销。
You are following? I don't have to tell you all this. Every day it is emphasised, sexuality. I am not talking about homo or heterosexuality, general sexuality. Why have human beings given such great importance to this? And if it is not important, you feel that there is something wrong with you, that you are neurotic, that you have to fulfil, you know, dozens of explanations by the psychologists, by the experts, by the sexuality, sexuality lists. Why? Is it pleasure? Remembrance in the picture of sexuality? You understand?
你明白吗？这些我不需要一一告诉你。每天，我们都会看到对性这个话题的强调。我不是在谈论同性恋或异性恋，而是一般的性。为什么人类对性给予如此大的重视？如果性并不重要，我们反而会觉得自己有问题，觉得自己有点精神失常，必须通过心理学家、专家或性问题专家给出的几十种解释来满足自己。为什么会这样呢？是因为追求快乐吗？还是因为性带来的记忆图像？你明白了吗？
Why has man given throughout the ages such extraordinary importance to this? If you are deprived of it you feel something terrible has happened. And you can voluntarily say, I won't have any, I will become a celibate and join a monastery or not join a monastery or remain a celibate with all the problems of celibacy. Right? So what is the question? Why has this thing given, has it been given to such a place in life? Part of life, right? Part of walking, seeing, running, laughing, tears, it is part of life. But why this one thing has taken importance? And it is being encouraged, very carefully.
为什么人类自古以来都如此重视这个？如果你失去了它，你会觉得发生了某种可怕的事情。你也可以自愿说，我不想要，我将成为一个独身者，去修道院或者不去修道院，或者选择保持独身，并面对独身带来的各种问题。对吧？那么问题是什么？为什么这件事情在生活中被赋予如此重要的位置？它是生活的一部分，对吧？就像行走、观看、奔跑、欢笑、流泪一样，它是生活的一部分。但为什么唯独这件事情变得如此重要，并且被非常小心地鼓励呢？
Right? By the entertaining industry, please go into all this. And the psychologists have also encouraged this, fulfil. And some mothers feel something wrong with her daughter or son who doesn't have a boy or a girlfriend of me up to the age of 12, 30. This is almost happening in the world, especially in this country. In the traditional countries like India and other countries, there is still. they say, please wait. Don't indulge. Wait till your 2020, or whatever.
好的，整个娱乐行业也参与其中。心理学家们还鼓励这种现象，希望得到满足。有些母亲会觉得，如果他们的女儿或儿子在12岁到30岁之间还没有男/女朋友，那可能有什么问题。这种情况在世界各地几乎都在发生，尤其是在某些国家。在传统国家，比如印度及其他一些国家，人们仍然会说，请等等，不要过早卷入恋爱关系，等到你20多岁或者其他适当的年龄再说。
So seeing all this, what does one learn from all this? Learn, not moral, not morality, not celibacy and so on. But what does one learn from all this? Come on, sirs. Religions through of the world, the ancient. No, I won't call it the very ancient. The Hindus, the Buddhists, the Christianity have always said, be a said. If you want to follow God, be a celibate. Why? And they take vows of celibacy, join monasteries, become a monk, wandering monk as they do in India, and go through tortures with this.
看到这一切，我们能从中学到什么呢？学到的不是道德，不是伦理，也不是独身生活等。那么，我们究竟能从中学到什么呢？各位，请思考一下。全世界的宗教，无论是古老的、不，我不称之为非常古老的——像印度教、佛教、基督教等，总是说，如果你想追随神，就要保持独身。为什么会这样呢？他们发誓独身，加入修道院，成为和尚，像印度的行脚僧一样四处游走，并因此经历各种磨难。
They have taken a vow, they must stick to it. I don't know why they take a vow, first, but once you have taken a vow, you have to follow that which you have accepted. But psychologically, in the lands, everything is a function, and you have a terrible time. I have talked, the speaker has talked to many, many of them. They go through hell. Religion has done that. You know all this, don't you? And what else? Why has man said to himself to achieve the most sublime, you must be a celibate? You understand?
他们立下了誓言，就必须坚持下去。我不知道他们为什么会立誓，但一旦你立下誓言，就必须遵守你所接受的。然而，在这个地方，在心理上，一切都是一种责任，而你会经历一段艰难的时光。我和许多人谈过，他们经历了地狱般的折磨。宗教造成了这种情况。你知道这些，对吧？为什么人们会认为要达到最崇高的境界，就必须独身呢？你明白吗？
That is, you must torture yourself to agonise, and then you will be nearer God, seems to challenge the whole thing. Sorry. I have met many, many sannyasis in India monks. I won't go to the details of it. They have tortured themselves in every way. Because the popular opinion is that to reach God, to reach the highest, you must live a life of the absolute abstinence. Which means, human beings have never understood what is austerity.
也就是说，你必须折磨自己去承受痛苦，这样才能更接近神，这种观点似乎对整个事情提出了质疑。抱歉。我在印度见过许多僧侣。我就不细说了。他们用各种方式折磨自己。因为普遍观点认为，要接近神、达到最高境界，你必须过一种完全禁欲的生活。这意味着人类从未真正理解什么是苦行。
May we go into that? You are not bored with all this? I don't mind if you are bored. Probably you don't want to go into all this. It may disturb you very much. And please don't be disturbed because we are dealing with facts. What is austerity? You know, the root meaning of that word, as we explain the other day, to be of steering means, to have and Greek, to drive mouth, not from drinks and all that, to drive mouth, which is to be harsh, to be sharp, to be dry.
我们可以深入讨论这个话题吗？你不会觉得这些很无聊吧？即使你觉得无聊，我也不介意。也许你不想深入这个话题，因为它可能会让你感到困扰。但是请不要因为我们讨论事实而感到困扰。什么是节制呢？你知道，这个词的根本意思——就像我们前几天解释过的——"节制"的意思是来自希腊文，意思是让口不喝醉，不涉及饮酒之类的，是让口变得苛刻、犀利、干燥。
And so, gradually, the human being has this idea that he must be austere, and has made himself into ashes. You understand? When you are forcing yourself day after day, month after month, year after year, driving yourself, you end up as a dry human being. And if you indulge also in the other direction, you have the same problem. So, can one live a life without conflict? You understand? Neither extremes can one, which imply conflict, the sensory demands and the suppression of sensory demands. Can one live without a single battle, effort, struggle between the two? You understand my question? That requires a great deal of enquiry into the whole problem of desire, will, wish, and the biological urges. You understand? Do you want to go on with this?
逐渐地，人开始有了这样的想法：他必须严于律己，结果却把自己变得如同灰烬。你明白吗？当你一天又一天、一个月又一个月、一年又一年地强迫自己，你最终会变成一个干瘪的人。如果你走向另一个极端，也同样会遇到问题。那么，人是否可以过上没有冲突的生活呢？你明白吗？不走极端，不追求感官的满足，也不压抑感官的需求，因为这两者都会带来冲突。是否可以过一种没有这两者之间的斗争、努力和挣扎的生活？你明白我的问题吗？这需要对欲望、意志、愿望以及生理冲动的整个问题进行深入探讨。你愿意继续这个讨论吗？
There is a very good question at the end, I just saw it. How is one to live on the surf? Please listen to it. How is one to live on the surf without harm, or destruction to its beauty, without bringing suffering and death to others? But we must finish our question, which we are talking previously. What time is it, sir? Could we bear another quarter now? Are you working the same as the speaker is working, or are you just listening? Your brain is active, working, enquiring, and doubting, intense to find out, to way of living something totally different. Don't be. We were saying, to live a life without conflict requires an investigation into the whole question of desire, which is a very, very complex problem.
最后有一个很好的问题，我刚刚看到它。我们该如何在海浪上生活呢？请仔细聆听。怎么才能在不伤害或破坏其美丽的前提下生活在海浪上，而不带来他人的痛苦和死亡呢？但我们必须先完成前面正在讨论的问题。请问，现在几点了？我们是否可以再坚持十五分钟？你的思维是否和演讲者一样在运作，还是只是单纯地在听？你的大脑是否活跃、工作着、探询着、质疑着，急切地寻找一种完全不同的生活方式？不要那样。我们之前谈到，要过一种没有冲突的生活，就需要深入探讨欲望这个非常复杂的问题。
Should we really want to go into all that? No, I am not asking out of encouragement. I am just asking, it is a very serious thing what we are undertaking. It is no good, Jeff, merely listening and repeating that has no meaning at all. But seeing what facts are in this world, what is actually taking place in the world, not only in this country, but in every country, so called every culture. And conflict in man is increasing more and more and more, not less and less. Man means woman and man, so please don't get excited about it. Why don't I talk about women?
我们真的要深入探讨这些问题吗？不，我不是在鼓励，只是想说，我们正在进行的事情非常严肃。仅仅倾听然后重复是没有意义的，杰夫。我们需要看到世界上的事实，了解世界上发生的事情，不仅仅局限于这个国家，而是每个国家、每种所谓的文化。人类内心的冲突不仅没有减少，反而越来越多。这里的人类指的是男女，请不要因为我没特别提到女性而激动。
And this one understands very deeply the movement of desire, not the description of it, not the explanation of it, but to enquire why desire has become extraordinarily important. Desire to become successful, desire to earn money, desire for sex, for excitement, for amusement, you follow? The tremendous urge and the speed of it, and the demand for its fulfilment. Again, religions have said you must suppress desire, which means another battle, another conflict, another torture. And other religions have it with human beings, and they are still doing it, not only in the Christian world, Islamic world, look what they are doing in Iran and Iraq, oh, good or not, all that.
这一段深入探讨了欲望的运作，而不是对欲望的描述或解释，而是追问为什么欲望变得如此重要。像成功的欲望、赚取金钱的欲望、对性的欲望、寻求刺激和娱乐的欲望，你明白吗？这种巨大的冲动、快速的追求以及对实现欲望的强烈需求。宗教曾告诉我们要压抑欲望，但这又意味着另一场斗争、冲突和折磨。而且，这种现象不仅存在于基督教世界和伊斯兰世界，如伊朗和伊拉克的情况，无论好坏，人们至今依然在与自己的欲望斗争。
So, what is desire? Please understand, we are not trying to suppress it, or encourage it, but it is a fact. The fact is that we are driven by desire. And thought is pain, sense of not being able to fulfil. So at any cost, at any price, we want the fulfilment of desire. You aim? Desire for God, desire for the understanding of all that, it is still desire. God, should I go into all this?
什么是欲望？请理解，我们不是要压抑欲望，也不是要鼓励欲望，而是承认一个事实。事实上，我们受到欲望的驱使。而思考则带来痛苦，因为思考让我们意识到无法实现的感觉。因此，我们不惜一切代价，想要实现欲望。你的目标是什么？是对上帝的渴望，还是对一切的理解的渴望？这仍然是欲望。天啊，我需要深入探讨这一切吗？
When you look at a tree, and the beauty of the tree, the light upon the leaf, and the mountains beyond it, the valleys, the shades, and the dappled light, and see that enormous beauty of the earth, that is a sensation. I won't go into the question of, is beauty a sensation? I am not going into that. That is another problem. No, not a problem, that is quite another thing, very interesting, if you go into it, is beauty a sensation? When you see all that, the earth and its beauty, it is a sensation, seeing with the optical eyes, with the eyes, and seeing the very seeing the rouses the sensations.
当你看着一棵树，欣赏它的美丽，叶子上的光芒，还有远处的山脉、山谷、阴影和斑驳的光线，你会看到地球的巨大美丽，这就是一种感受。我不会探讨“美是否是一种感受”这个问题，因为那是另一个话题。不过，如果你深入研究，“美是否是一种感受”确实是一个非常有趣的问题。在你看到这一切时，看到地球及其美丽，这是一种感受，就像用眼睛看，用双眼去看，而这种看到本身就激发了感受。
Seeing a beautiful woman or a man arouses various kinds of sensations. Then that sensation is correct, isn't it? Normal, healthy, natural, unless one is paralysed, blind and deaf, dumb. That is, when one is sensitive, one is acutely aware of all this, and you see this, this perception of all this, then what takes place? You are looking at those hills, the seeing of those hills arouses some sensations, then what is the next step to that? Then quietly look at it. Doesn't then thought come in and say, what a beautiful thing that is. Thought then creates an image, out of that sensation. Very funny.
看到一位美丽的女士或男士会引发各种感受。这种感受是正常的吗？是正常的、健康的、自然的，除非一个人瘫痪、失明、失聪或失语。也就是说，当一个人敏感时，他会敏锐地意识到这些事情。当你看到这些，感知到这些时，会发生什么呢？你正在看那些山丘，看到它们引发了一些感受，然后下一步是什么呢？接下来，静静地看着它。难道此时思维不会介入并说，那真是美丽的东西吗？之后，思维就会从这种感受中创造出一个形象。很有趣。
Right? I am not saying anything that is not factual, it is not supposition or fictitious sensation, contact sensation, then thought makes an image of that sensation. Right? You are funny? When thought makes an image out of that sensation, then desire is both. Sensation is not desire. It goes without thinking. It goes without thinking. Everyone in the course of that is. No self, no self, no self, no self. No self, no self. No self, no self. No self. No self. No self. No self. No self. No self. No self. No self. No self. No self. I'm not. Two and a half. What's the least? You know, how to do a sexy thing without a finger.
好的？我所说的都是事实，没有假设或虚构的感觉。感官接触后，思想会对这种感觉产生一个形象。对吗？你是不是觉得这很有趣？当思想从感觉中创造出一个形象时，欲望就形成了。感觉本身不是欲望。这个过程是自然而然的。大家都会经历这样的过程。没有“自我”，没有“自我”，没有“自我”……我没有。两个半。最少是什么？你知道吗，如何在不动手指的情况下做最性感的事。
And the question is, go and say sexy. I was at the top of the top. Going to the sky. Not to hear me, to cut up things where I was at the moment. I was basically really, really sexy. So, I was really sexy. So, I was like, some of you know, is this thing that's what happens when you're being a nut, an intender, a hock, so that's sexy and so does I. I was like, three different colors. It's like, a costume, really, in the sky. Good. What's the thing? Say, sexy. I was sexy, I was like, say, sexy, I was pretty sexy. Good. This isめ.
这个问题是，要说性感。我曾在高处之巅。向天空出发。不为被聆听，而是打破我当下所在的一切。我基本上真的非常性感。所以，我真的很性感。于是，我就像是，有些人知道，当你是个疯子、一个有意图者、一只鹰，这就是性感的样子，我也是这样。我就像是三种不同的颜色。就像是穿了一套在天上的服装。很好。什么事情？说性感。我很性感，我就像是，嗯，性感，我相当性感。很好。这就是重点。
Oh dear, not pretty. Well, I'm not demanding they're coming. But this lady came wearing bracers. Uh, her, is your face cornered? So much that we have to follow as a man with work, to just stop thinking, what human beings are doing with work. And, some of us work regardless of work, how we can follow, and so on. We're moving on, moving on. We're moving on, because we all don't just have to be the only one. I know that we're the only ones. We're relaxed, and we're still happy. We're still not crying, and we're still happy. We're still happy. And, and we're not going to call it the sunset, break in with, morning, which is this evening. Morning is evening, not going to be evening. Morning.
哦，天哪，不太好看。不过，我并没有强求他们过来。但这个女士戴着护腕来了。呃，她的脸是不是有点不知所措？我们为了工作而不得不继续前行，不再去想人类用工作在做些什么。我们当中的一些人，无论如何都会继续工作，无论如何都能跟随这种节奏。我们继续前进，因为我们不再是唯一的那一个。我知道我们是唯一的，但我们放松了，依然快乐。我们还没有哭泣，并且依旧幸福。我们依然快乐。我们不会把这称作日落，而是以早晨来迎接，就好像这个晚上。早晨就是晚上，不会再是傍晚，而是早晨。