How to Reclaim Your Brain in 2026 - Dr Andrew Huberman (4K)

发布时间 2026-01-05 16:00:54 来源

摘要

Dr Andrew Huberman is a neuroscientist, Associate Professor at the Stanford University School of Medicine and a podcaster. There’s an overwhelming amount of information on how to level up your body and mind, and it can be difficult to know where the latest science truly stands. Thankfully, Dr. Andrew Huberman breaks down the research on habits, the brain, sleep, supplements, and his personal go-to protocols. Expect to learn why high cortisol isn’t actually a bad think to have a lot of, Andrew’s advice on how to overcome burnout, what the new science of better sleep would be, how to make and set better habits easier, what Andrew thinks of the new “protein in everything” trend, the next wave of supplements to take to optimise your life, Andrew’s take on religion and faith and much more… - 0:00 How Cortisol Programs Our Day 9:22 Understanding Stress & Burnout 14:16 The Silent Cost of Sleep Debt 21:47 Breakthrough Secrets for Better Sleep 36:19 Should We Sleep With Our Head Raised? 51:44 The #1 Hack for Deep Focus 01:08:08 The Science of Spirituality 01:25:28 How Much Can We Control Our Internal World? 01:33:38 Why Understanding People Changes Everything 01:46:35 Healthy Media Habits 02:06:28 The Next Breakthrough Supplement 02:25:09 The Nutrient That Heals Your Second Brain 02:31:24 Hacking Your Mitochondrial DNA 02:39:55 Making Sense of Complex Health Issues 03:04:02 Andrew’s Upcoming Book - Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

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中英文字稿

Most people think about cortisol as a bad thing that you want less of. Is that the right way to think about it? Not at all. Cortisol has been labeled a stress hormone, and it is involved in stress. We have a bout of stress. We have a spike of cortisol, so to speak. Cortisol, like other stored hormones, is bound to things, and there's a free form of cortisol. That's the active one. You don't want your free unbound cortisol to be chronically high. But we need to really think about why it was called a stress hormone in the first place. The main reason is cortisol's job is to deploy energy sources for your brain and body to be able to react to things, think, and move. Cortisol naturally goes up a bit during stress, and it comes back again. Provide it you don't ruminate on that stress too much. On the stressor, that is.

大多数人认为皮质醇是一种有害的东西，应该尽量减少。这种看法正确吗？并不完全是这样的。皮质醇被贴上了“压力荷尔蒙”的标签，确实与压力有关。当我们感到压力时，皮质醇的水平会升高。然而，像其他储存的荷尔蒙一样，皮质醇是结合在一起的，只有游离状态的皮质醇才是活跃的。你不希望游离的皮质醇长期处于高水平。但我们需要明白，为什么最开始称它为“压力荷尔蒙”。主要原因是皮质醇的工作是为大脑和身体提供能量，使其能够应对、思考和行动。在压力期间，皮质醇的水平会自然上升，然后又恢复正常——前提是你不要过度地思考这个压力源。

The big eye opener for me was when I actually went into the modern textbooks on cortisol. Not the ones that most medical students learn from, but what the endocrinologist, the specialist, really learn from. And what the circadian and sleep biologists now understand, which is the reason you wake up every single morning, even if you have an alarm clock, is because of something called the cortisol awakening response. So if we just step back from a typical healthy 24 hours, it looks something like this. A couple hours before sleep, your cortisol is low, your heart rate is low, your calm. Hopefully it's dim in the room. You go to sleep. Your cortisol is then at its absolute lowest levels for the entire 24 hours. And by the way, this is the same time when melatonin, the sleepy hormone, is at its highest levels.

对我来说，真正让我大开眼界的是，当我深入研究现代有关皮质醇的教科书时，我发现其中的知识与大多数医学生所学的不太一样。这些书籍是内分泌学家和专业人士学习的内容。还有就是现在昼夜节律和睡眠生物学家们的理解，即即使不依赖闹钟，你每天早上都会醒来的原因，是因为皮质醇觉醒反应。如果我们回顾一下一个典型的健康的24小时，会是这样的：在入睡前的几小时内，你的皮质醇水平较低，心率较低，感觉很平静。希望房间里的光线是昏暗的。然后你入睡，此时你的皮质醇水平达到了全天候的最低值。同时，顺便一提，这是褪黑激素（促进睡眠的激素）浓度最高的时候。

After about four or five hours of sleep, and typically in that first four or five hours of sleep is when you get your most deep sleep, slow wave sleep, non-rem sleep. Many people experience a transition into the sort of last third of their sleep for the night, and they tend to wake up around that time. And often they use the restroom and go back to sleep. Why did they wake up? Well, it turns out that your cortisol is starting to rise about two thirds of the way through the night. It's really creeping up throughout the entire night, but it's gone from this nadir to its starting to climb. And then at some point, let's assume you get back to sleep where you slept through the night. At some point, maybe 6am, maybe 8am, depends on who you are and what your schedule is.

在大约四到五个小时的睡眠之后，通常在前四到五个小时里，你会经历最深的睡眠阶段，即缓慢波睡眠和非快速眼动(Non-REM)睡眠。很多人在夜里的最后三分之一段时间内会经历一个过渡，并在这时醒来。他们通常会去洗手间，然后再回去睡觉。为什么他们会醒来呢？其实，在夜晚大约过了三分之二后，你的皮质醇水平开始上升。虽然整晚它都在缓慢增加，但从最低点开始爬升。假设你能够继续入睡，可能在早晨六点或八点醒来，具体时间取决于你的个人情况和作息安排。

You wake up. Maybe your alarm clock goes off. You wake up. You wake up because the cortisol level reached a certain threshold. It is literally the cortisol awakening response. It is healthy. It is good. And if I were to measure your cortisol at that moment, and compare it to what people might call like a stress episode in the afternoon, you would say it's much higher than what stress-induced. Okay, so then your cortisol continues to rise. And there's this unique opportunity in the first hour, maybe 90 minutes, but in the first hour after waking, where viewing bright light can increase your morning cortisol spike, as I'll refer to it, by up to 50%. Bright light can come from sunlight, ideally, or from a bright artificial light, like a 10,000 lux artificial light, or even a very bright indoor artificial LED or incandescent light.

你醒来了。也许是因为闹钟响了。你醒来了。你醒来是因为你的皮质醇水平达到了一个特定的阈值。这就是皮质醇唤醒反应，这是一种健康的现象。假如我在这个时刻测量你的皮质醇水平，并将其与下午可能发生的压力事件相比，你会发现它远高于因压力而升高的水平。然后，你的皮质醇水平继续上升。在醒来的第一个小时内，这段时间可能是一个小时或者90分钟，在这段时间内，接触明亮的光线可以将你的早晨皮质醇峰值增加多达50%。这种明亮的光线最好是来自阳光，也可以是来自亮度为10,000勒克斯的人造灯光，或者是非常明亮的室内LED或白炽灯光。

Okay, why is this important? Well, we could explore all the biology of cortisol, and we can summarize it by saying you have this hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis that sets off cortisol, self-regulates, negative feedback loop, etc. That's the normal regulation of cortisol, which basically can be summarized as it never allows you to have your cortisol too high for too long. It feeds back on itself and shuts it down. However, in the first hour after waking, your brain circadian clock has a unique privileged pathway that is separate from the HPA axis, where it can amplify cortisol only in that first hour. You say, why would that be? This is nature's evolutionarily hard-wired mechanism for giving you the opportunity to boost your cortisol so that you have energy to lean into the activities of your day.

好的，为什么这很重要呢？我们可以探讨一下皮质醇的生物学背景，总结来说，就是你的下丘脑垂体肾上腺轴会启动皮质醇，并通过负反馈循环进行自我调节。这是皮质醇的正常调节过程，基本上可以概括为它从不允许你的皮质醇水平过高过久。它通过自身的反馈来关闭自己。然而，在醒来的第一个小时里，大脑的昼夜节律时钟有一个独立于下丘脑垂体肾上腺轴的独特通道，可以在这个时段内增强皮质醇的水平。你可能会问，为什么会这样呢？这是大自然经过进化形成的机制，给予你提升皮质醇的机会，这样你就有足够的能量来投入到一天的活动中。

When I say energy, I'm not saying, you know, it's not like we're having to be in California at the moment, but not energy energy. I'm talking about glucose mobilization. If you're on a low carbohydrate diet, you're going to mobilize other energy sources. Your brain and body wakes up because of cortisol. You have the opportunity to boost that wakefulness even further by viewing bright light. Yes, you could exercise. Yes, you could drink caffeine. Turn it out caffeine if you're a chronic caffeine user, such as me, such as you, doesn't actually increase cortisol that much. You could jump in a 40-degree Fahrenheit cold plunge. Doesn't actually increase your cortisol.

当我谈到能量时，我不是指我们是否需要像在加利福尼亚那样的能量。我指的是葡萄糖的动员。如果你正在低碳水化合物饮食中，你会动员其他的能量来源。你的大脑和身体会由于皮质醇而变得清醒。你有机会通过接触明亮的光线来进一步提升这种清醒度。当然，你可以运动，你也可以喝咖啡因。如果你像我一样经常摄入咖啡因，实际上这对皮质醇的提升没有那么明显。你可以尝试40华氏度（约4摄氏度）的冷水浴，但它实际上也并不会显著提升你的皮质醇水平。

All this nonsense going around the internet about women should do cold plunge. If they do not as cold, okay, maybe, but it's always attributed to increases in cortisol. Cold plunge reduces your cortisol levels. You can look at the data. The data show that it goes down. Adrenaline goes up, dopamine goes up, nor epinephrine go up. Cortisol makes you alert. It makes you focus. Here's the key thing. Spiking your cortisol in that first hour after waking is so, so important because that negative feedback loop mechanism kicks in about three hours after you've been awake. That's why your cortisol then starts to drop late morning, early afternoon, later afternoon.

网上有很多关于女性应该进行冷水浸泡的说法，这些都是无稽之谈。即使她们没有浸泡得那么冷，也没关系，但总有人把它与皮质醇的增加联系起来。然而，冷水浸泡实际上是降低皮质醇水平的。你可以查一下数据，数据显示皮质醇水平确实会下降。同时，肾上腺素、多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素水平会上升。皮质醇让你保持警觉和专注。关键是，在醒来的第一个小时内提升皮质醇水平是非常重要的，因为大约在清醒三小时后，这种负反馈机制会开始起作用。这就是为什么你的皮质醇水平会在上午晚些时候、下午初期和后期开始下降。

In the afternoon, if you have a bout of stress, no problem. You just have a little bit of cortisol bump, adrenaline bump, and it goes back down. If you don't spike your morning cortisol, what ends up happening is your cortisol system essentially the HPA axis is primed for stress events to give you big lasting increases in cortisol later, which make it hard to fall asleep, which make it hard to stay asleep, which are part of the reason why people have afternoon anxiety, all sorts of things. You're actually supposed to feel a little stressed first thing in the morning. This is normal. This is healthy, and it sets you up for being more calm in the afternoon.

下午时，如果你感到一阵压力，不用担心。你的皮质醇只会轻微升高一下，肾上腺素也会稍微增加，然后就会恢复正常。如果你早晨没有让皮质醇水平升高，那么你的皮质醇系统，即下丘脑-垂体-肾上腺轴（HPA轴），会被设定为在面对压力时出现较大的持续性皮质醇升高。这会导致晚上难以入睡或保持睡眠，并且也是导致人们下午感到焦虑的原因之一。其实，你早晨感到一点压力是正常而健康的，这有助于你下午更加平和。

Now, none of this is tied to whether or not you wake up at 8 a.m., 6 a.m., 4 a.m., or 11 a.m. This is not about chronotype. This is simply about the first hour after waking. But after about 90 minutes post waking, that opportunity to spike your cortisol goes away. So if you can't view bright light in the form of sunlight, get it from artificial light. You would do well to compound that with hydration, which by the way, for reasons that still aren't entirely understood, probably has to do with some electrolyte balance, et cetera.

现在，这一切与您是否在早上8点、6点、4点或11点起床无关。这不是在讨论您的生物钟类型，而仅仅是关于醒来后的第一个小时。不过，在您醒来大约90分钟后，这种提升皮质醇的机会就会消失。所以，如果您不能通过阳光获取强光，就从人造光源中获取。此外，最好结合补充水分，顺便说一下，尽管原因尚不完全清楚，可能与电解质平衡等因素有关。

First thing in the day, we'll also first your cortisol. If you can't get in exercise right away, even just some skipping rope, jumping jacks, this kind of thing. Getting the body into a high cortisol state early sets you up for being in a low cortisol state in the afternoon and evening, and any cortisol that you might trigger through a stress event will quickly subside. Unless you what's called flatten your cortisol curve by not spiking in the morning.

一天开始时，我们首先要提高你的皮质醇水平。如果你不能马上进行锻炼，即使只是跳绳、开合跳这些运动，也会有帮助。让身体在早晨进入高皮质醇状态，可以让你在下午和晚上处于低皮质醇状态，这样即使遇到压力事件引发了皮质醇，也会很快减退。除非你通过在早晨不提高皮质醇水平而导致所谓的皮质醇曲线变平。

And by the way, the curve that I'm describing high in the morning, lower into the afternoon, low, low, low as you get into the first hours of sleep. This is the healthy cortisol curve for men, women, kids, pregnant women, post men, a pause of women, it tends to flatten out a bit. And then you do additional things to get that spike earlier. So this one I hear all this stuff about don't cold plunge, it increases court doesn't increase cortisol.

顺便说一下，我描述的这种曲线是早上高，下午逐渐降低，入睡的最初几个小时最低。这是男性、女性、儿童、孕妇、更年期后的女性的健康皮质醇曲线。对于更年期后的女性，曲线可能会变得平坦一些。为了让曲线在更早的时间上升，你可以做一些额外的事情。所以，当我听到人们说冷水浴不利于健康，因为它会增加皮质醇时，我认为这样的说法是不成立的。

And also this notion that we're supposed to avoid stress entirely, not true. You and I both generally grow on that, but how you time your stress is important. And the last point I'll make is that if you were to do say a very intense workout in the late afternoon evening, it's been demonstrated that will triple or quadruple your baseline cortisol levels for a few hours, not a problem. You can take a hot shower afterwards, do some slow breathing and calm down, provide a you didn't fill up with caffeine prior you could probably fall asleep just fine.

我们不应该完全避免压力，这种观念其实不正确。实际上，我们通常在压力中会成长，但关键在于如何合理安排压力的时机。最后我要说明的一点是，如果你在下午晚些时候进行一次非常高强度的锻炼，研究表明这会让你的基础皮质醇水平在几个小时内增加三到四倍，这并不是大问题。你可以在锻炼后洗个热水澡，做一些缓慢的呼吸放松下来，只要你之前没有摄入大量咖啡因，你应该还是能很好地入睡。

But because you spiked your cortisol late day, what you find is that the next day cortisol is lower, which is one of the not all the only reason, but one of the reasons why you're a bit more sluggish the next morning. So and this is why people's if they exercise too late in the day, their rhythm starts to shift when we talk about your circadian rhythm shifting in response to light, it's the cortisol peak that shifting or flattening, which in turn adjust your melatonin peak and trough.

但是，由于你在一天的晚些时候让皮质醇水平飙升，你会发现第二天皮质醇水平较低。这不是唯一的原因，但确实是导致你第二天早上有些懒散的原因之一。因此，如果人们太晚锻炼，他们的生物节律会开始发生变化。我们提到昼夜节律对光线的响应发生变化时，其实就是指皮质醇的高峰在移动或变平，这反过来调整了褪黑激素的高峰和低谷。

But so this is the trigger cortisol think of it like the thing about this morning cortisol spike as the first domino in establishing essentially all the rhythms that you're interested in if you want daytime mood focus alertness night times. And so these are things I've talked about for years and that we've talked about for years, but only recently has it become clear exactly why cortisol is that first domino in the chain.

所以，皮质醇就像是触发器。可以把早晨的皮质醇激增想象成多米诺骨牌的第一块，它在建立你所关心的所有节律方面起着关键作用，比如白天的情绪、专注力和警觉性，以及晚上的节律。这些都是我们多年来一直谈论的话题，但直到最近，我们才搞清楚为什么皮质醇是这个链条上的第一块多米诺骨牌。

And we hear so often about dopamine, epinephrine, epinephrine, all of which are important all downstream of cortisol. So chronically high cortisol cushions disease the things that give people moon face that caused memory deficits all these sorts of things that's when the cortisol curve is too flat for too long, meaning too high in the afternoon and evening, but there is I won't say there's no upper limit to how high cortisol can be in the morning.

我们经常听到关于多巴胺、肾上腺素的讨论，这些都是重要的激素，都是皮质醇的下游产物。长期高水平的皮质醇会导致库欣综合征，这种病会让人脸部浮肿，并引起记忆力衰退等问题。这些问题出现的原因是皮质醇水平曲线长时间过于平坦，也就是说，下午和晚上皮质醇水平过高。然而，我不能说早晨的皮质醇水平没有上限。

There are people who have pathologically high levels of cortisol in the first hours of the day. Most people even people with cushions have pathologically low cortisol early in the day pathologically high cortisol late in the day. They've inverted that that's right and getting this curve right is so critical it predicts longevity it predicts recovery from everything from chemotherapy to pain relief.

有些人在一天开始的最初几个小时内体内皮质醇水平异常偏高。大多数人，甚至是患有库欣氏症的人，早上的皮质醇水平异常偏低，而晚上则偏高。他们的生物节律是颠倒的。调整这个皮质醇曲线非常重要，因为它不仅影响寿命，还影响从化疗到疼痛缓解等各方面的恢复。

You know, it's one of the things that I'm you seem to be doing all the right things plus these sort of outrageous outrageously ambitious health protocols as well. Although I will commend you if you're going to clean anything including your blood, I do suggest doing an austria or Switzerland because those are very clean. Wonderful place to go in the well, they're very clean countries.

你知道，你似乎在做所有正确的事情，加上一些异常强烈的健康措施。虽然我建议你，如果要清理什么，包括你的血液，最好选择奥地利或瑞士，因为这些国家非常干净。它们是非常适合去的地方，环境非常卫生。

Yeah, what about the relationship between cortisol and burnout? You know, you talked about sustained chronically elevated cortisol, but I've also heard you talk about burnout is basically being wrongly timed cortisol over time. That's really stretched out. What what have you come to learn about handling burnout? Somebody feels that sense or I feel like I'm sort of close to that. What's going on and how can they try to intervene in that?

好的，那么关于皮质醇和倦怠之间的关系呢？你之前提到过持续的慢性皮质醇水平升高，但我也听你说过，倦怠其实是指错误时机的皮质醇长期过多。这种情况真的会被长期拉长。那么你对处理倦怠有什么见解呢？如果有人有这种感觉，或者觉得自己快要进入倦怠状态，这是怎么回事，他们有什么方法可以进行干预吗？

So there seem to be two general forms of burnout. One is the I'm exhausted in the morning and I just can't get into gear and then it's like caffeine caffeine caffeine exhausted it and then late day. Okay, finally, you know, the caught the wave front and then I'm having trouble sleeping and then the whole thing replaced but tired, wired but tired. The other form of burnout is where people just it's like their cortisol is like a square wave function. It's just up in the morning and all day long. It's sort of how I would describe my graduate school years, probably undergraduate graduate school years postdoc. I think I hit a wall during my postdoc years. That was, you know, that would be, you know, 30 or 35 and then at some point you realize you just can't keep this going. And I think most entrepreneurs feel that way. At some point, you're just like, I can't do this. I mean, even the David Goggins and the camhains is they they do sleep, right? They get sleep eventually.

看起来有两种常见的职业倦怠形式。一种是早上感到筋疲力尽，无法进入工作状态，然后只靠咖啡因撑着，一直到下午才勉强找到状态，但晚上又因为过度疲惫无法入睡，这种状况循环往复，就是“疲惫却兴奋”。另一种职业倦怠则是那种像皮质醇水平呈正弦波一样的人，一整天都精神亢奋。我觉得我的研究生时期就是这样，可能本科学习、研究生以及博士后阶段都是如此。大概到了博士后期间，我感到身心疲惫，不堪重负。这应该是我30到35岁之间，然后突然意识到自己无法再继续这样下去了。我想大多数创业者都有同样的感受，他们在某个时刻会感觉到坚持不下去了。即便是像David Goggins和Cam Haines这样的人，他们还是会需要休息和睡眠。

So I think the main way to think about burnout and exhaustion is to ask oneself, okay, if I had total control, when would I naturally wake up? When would I naturally go to sleep? Like what would be my preferred times to do that? And then whatever your wake up time is to really treat that first three to six hours of your day. As go time and to do the things bright light hydration exercise caffeine, et cetera, that really push you into the day. But then really essentially doing all the opposite things that you do in the morning in the last. Ideally for, but most people won't do that last two hours of your day dim the lights caffeine forget it should have halted that probably eight hours before sleep. Limit your hydration, right? Unless you're dehydrated limit your hydration, you know, long exhale breathing anything that can bring your cortisol levels down and bring your melatonin levels up, which is why we were so bullish or about dimming the lights later in the day.

我认为思考疲劳和倦怠的主要方法是问自己，如果我能完全掌控自己的时间，我会自然地在什么时候醒来？又会在什么时候自然入睡？哪些时间是我理想的作息时间？然后，根据醒来的时间，把这一天中的前三到六个小时当作“进击时间”，在这段时间完成重要的事情，比如多接触明亮的光线、补充水分、进行锻炼，以及适量摄入咖啡因等，让你积极投入到一天的活动中。但在晚上尤其是最后两个小时，要做早上相反的事情：调暗灯光，避免摄入咖啡因（最好在睡前八小时就停止），限制饮水，除非你缺水。你可以进行长时间的呼气等能降低皮质醇水平、提高褪黑素水平的事情。这也是我们推崇晚上调暗灯光的原因。

And you know, we were talking about the red lens glasses to block out short wavelength light, which by the way, a lot of people have said, well, you know, the study is showing that screen light disrupts sleep very variable between people. People have different levels of retinal sensitivity. So how how much screen light will disrupt their sleep, but it's not just about sleep. There's a beautiful study published in proscenes in the national academy of sciences that showed that people who sleep in a room with an overhead light of a hundred locks, which is extremely dim show abnormally elevated morning glucose levels makes perfect sense. Cortisol mobilizes glucose and this is through closed eyelids. Okay, so you have to get the light down to maybe one to three locks and say one to three locks. I get it's basically dark, dark, dark. A candle light very is very low. A bright full moon where you say, oh, it's so bright out is actually only about one to five locks. So we think of these sources as very bright, but nature set us up to have bright mornings and dim dark nights.

你知道，我们之前讨论过红色镜片眼镜用来阻挡短波长光，很多人都提到过，有研究显示屏幕光对睡眠的干扰因人而异，不同的人对视网膜的光敏感度不同，所以屏幕光对睡眠的干扰程度也不同。但这不仅仅关乎睡眠。有一项很棒的研究发表在《美国国家科学院院刊》上，研究表明在一个有100勒克斯（非常昏暗）顶灯的房间里睡觉的人，早上的血糖水平会异常升高。这很合理，因为皮质醇能调动葡萄糖，即便在闭着眼的情况下也会发生。因此，你需要把光线降到一到三勒克斯，你会发现这基本上就是非常黑暗的环境。蜡烛的光线非常低，而即便是满月，看起来很亮，但其实也只有一到五勒克斯。我们常认为这些光源很亮，但实际上，大自然让我们的早晨很亮，而夜晚应该是昏暗的。

And some people will say, well, there's no light where I live. You know, listen, you don't need to see the sun as a delineated object. If you compare how bright it is, let's just say even in the dead of winter in the UK at nine a.m. Walking in a place with no artificial lighting outside, no street lamps versus midnight the night before in the same location. You'd say you can navigate in the one case without any artificial lighting without a what we call flash light, you call a torch, but in any case. The the idea is that there's there are a lot of photons coming through and you want all of that early in the day. And you just want to do the inverse in the last part of the day.

一些人可能会说，我住的地方没有光。其实，你不用把太阳看作一个分明的对象。就算是在英国冬季最冷的时候，比如早上九点，当你在没有人工照明和路灯的地方走动时，和前一天晚上午夜在同一地点相比，你会发现早上可以不用手电筒等人工照明工具就能看清路。重点是，即使在这样的环境下，早上也有大量的光子进入眼睛，所以你希望一天开始时能尽量多地接触这些光。而在一天结束时，则要做相反的事情。

So I think to avoid overwhelming people because people have so much to do and think about get the first hour of your day right. Get the last hour of your day right and you'll greatly improve this morning cortisol peak late day cortisol reduction, which is what you want. And you'll get your natural clearing out of any melatonin that happens to be in your system because bright light quashes melatonin through a different pathway. But that also originates with the eyes goes through the supercars magnucleus and a couple other relays to your pineal shuts down melatonin production. And then late in the day, you just make it dimmer darker darker darker and you bring up your melatonin, you bring down your cortisol.

所以，我认为为了避免让人们感到不知所措，因为人们已经有很多事情要做和思考，你可以让每天的第一个小时和最后一个小时过得更好。这样可以大幅改善早晨皮质醇的高峰和晚间皮质醇的减少，这是你所想要的。早晨的明亮光线可以通过不同的途径消除系统中的任何褪黑激素，这个过程也从眼睛开始，经过视交叉上核和其他几个中枢传递到松果体，停止褪黑激素的产生。到了一天的晚些时候，就要让环境变得越来越暗，这样可以增加褪黑激素水平，降低皮质醇水平。

But if you think about what's happened with screens that it's stimulating. I think late last night I made the mistake of I watched an extended 60 minutes interview. I actually fell asleep to it. Is it the PTO T1? No, it's the Trump one. Okay. I was curious. I hadn't heard an interview with him for a long time. And it was sort of combative. But there it was an interesting one. And I was curious to see how that would go. And I fell asleep in about the last 15 minutes. But that I wouldn't recommend doing that normally would be screens off in the last hour. I just, you know, I got a I got a little loose with my protocols.

如果你考虑到屏幕带来的刺激，那就会明白。我昨晚犯了个错误，看了一个长篇的《60分钟》采访。我其实是在这个采访中睡着的。是那个PTO T1的采访吗？不是，是特朗普的。因为我有些好奇，很久没有听到他的采访了。这次的访谈有点针锋相对，但也挺有意思的。我想看看结果会如何，所以在最后大约15分钟的时候睡着了。通常来说，我不会推荐这么做，最后一个小时应该避免使用屏幕。我只是放松了自己设定的规则而已。

Yeah, we've been I've seen you talking about daylight savings, time changes and stuff like that. This has been nearly a decade now since Matthew Walker was first on Rogan. I think it's nearly almost 10 years ago. And I was still a club promoter at the time. And up until then I just assumed that sleep was. It's just like this thing that got in the way of me working. It was just this bullshit. There's an on stage. 20 is that's kind of true. You made a rubber and magic. Dude, you know what I mean? Caffeine and big dreams and salad tape and cable ties. You're just fucking like strung together with this stuff.

是的，我看到你在谈论夏令时、时间变化之类的事情。差不多已经十年了，自从Matthew Walker第一次上Rogan的节目。我想那大概是快10年前的事了。那时我还是一个俱乐部的活动推广者。在那之前，我一直以为睡眠只是妨碍我工作的东西，完全是个麻烦。在20多岁的时候，这种想法有点对。你就像是用橡胶和魔法捏成的一样，你懂我意思吗？靠咖啡因、大梦想、透明胶带和电缆扎带把自己拼凑在一起。

Anyway, he came on and basically did the scare them straight equivalent. Do you have that in school? Scared them straight. So they bring a prison officer in and he tells you about how horrible life is in prison. All of the horror stories that what how old are you? Like 12 13. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's saying, you know, they put boiling water into a cup and mix loads of sugar in it and it's syrup. And they throw it on people and then they have batteries and they put them in socks. And I remember he hit this sock filled with batteries down on the table and it made me jump. I was like, fuck, like I really don't want to go to honestly worked it for me. My particular psychological makeup that thing apps and nothing else.

好的，他上台后，基本上就像在学校实施“让他们受惊吓从而改正”的那种教育。你们学校有这种活动吗？就是请一个狱警来，给你讲监狱生活有多么可怕。各种恐怖故事。那时你几岁？大概12、13岁吧。对对对，他说，他们会把开水倒进杯子里，然后搅很多糖进去，变成糖浆，然后扔在人身上。还有就是他们用袜子装上电池。我记得他把一个装满电池的袜子往桌子上一砸，吓了我一跳。我当时心想，天哪，我真的不想进监狱。对我来说，这种方式真的起作用了。根据我的心理特征，这种方法最有效，其他都不行。

This sort of person was probably going to go to jail anyway. But yeah, I learn sleep is okay, really, really important. You've been talking about daylight savings. The more that I learn about it, the effects of sleep deprivation are just terrifying. It's just everything gets broken. Yeah, I mean, sleep is the ultimate reset. We could talk about some of the newer data is that point exactly why I will say just, you know, for people's peace of mind. If you don't spike your cortisol for a couple days in a row, you get one poor night sleep for a couple days in a row. You're going to be fine.

这种人可能本来就会进监狱。不过，我确实学到了睡眠是非常非常重要的。你一直在谈论夏令时。我越了解它，就越觉得睡眠不足的影响简直太可怕了。一切都会变得混乱。是的，我的意思是，睡眠是终极重置。我们可以谈论一些新的数据，确实解释了这一点，但我想说的是，为了大家的安心，如果你连续几天没有让皮质醇激增，连续几天睡不好觉，其实也不会有什么大问题。

The human body and brain evolved under conditions that were extreme right. New parents will tell you how difficult sleep can be. I mean, you can pull it off. The thing that we call chronic stress is frankly when that cortisol curve gets disrupted in any number of ways, but typically it's late day cortisol spikes that don't come back down afterwards for three four or five days in a row. Your hippocampus, this memory center in the brain is chalk a block full of cortisol receptors and cortisol unlike adrenaline can pass through the blood brain barrier.

人类的身体和大脑是在极端条件下进化而来的。新手父母会告诉你，睡眠有时会多么困难。我的意思是，你可以挺过来。所谓的慢性压力，简单来说，就是当皮质醇水平的曲线以各种不同方式被扰乱了，通常是傍晚的皮质醇水平突然升高，并持续三到五天都没有恢复正常。大脑中的记忆中心——海马体，到处都是皮质醇受体，而与肾上腺素不同的是，皮质醇可以穿过血脑屏障。

So it has a number of docking sites that allow it to engage the memory system, you know, what stress will engage your memory system. But that over time will start to deteriorate these structures. So if somebody hasn't been sleeping well, you know, I'm not just saying this to make them feel better. You don't want to send them into a panic. And all of these systems can be recovered. You know, when Matt went on Rogan, I think it was an important, like truly important. It was fucking so I'll say it was seminal.

它有多个连接位点，可以与记忆系统互动，你知道，压力会影响你的记忆系统。但随着时间推移，这些结构会开始退化。所以如果有人睡眠不好，我不是只是为了让他们感觉好一点才这样说。你不想让他们陷入恐慌。而且所有这些系统都是可以恢复的。你知道，当Matt上Rogan的节目时，我认为这是非常重要的，真的非常重要。我会说这是一个开创性的时刻。

Like he has saved that one episode has probably saved thousands of years. If not hundreds of thousands of years of combined human life. Yeah, oh, I agree. I mean, I think the challenge and I think that Matt would say this. I'm sort of borrowing his words is that he sufficiently scared everybody. There were fewer things to offer to do to promote good sleep at that time. And there were more of a lot of like here's what happens if you don't sleep.

就像他拯救了那一集，可能已经拯救了数千年，乃至数十万年的人类生命。是的，我同意。我觉得挑战在于——我想马特也会这么说，我有点借用了他的话——他成功地吓住了所有人。在那时，促进良好睡眠的方法较少，而更多的内容是关于如果不睡觉会发生什么。

Yeah, this stress of trying to be perfect will kill you more quickly than your imperfections that like you optimize or obsess a thing. And you want to give people a sense of real agency. Right. Yeah, dimming the lights if you're light sensitive in particular and you know limiting caffeine. I mean, all the things that are sort of obvious to us now. The morning sunlight thing I think most people don't tether to their sleep because it's not obvious how doing something in the first hour of your day to be more alert and spike cortisol creates a situation, you know, 14 hours later where you are a better sleeper.

嗯，这种追求完美的压力会比你的缺陷更快地让你受到伤害。我们往往过于追求某一方面的完美，但我们应该给人们一种真实的自主感。对吧，特别是如果你对光线敏感，可以调暗灯光，限制咖啡因摄入。这些现在对我们来说都是显而易见的事情。至于早晨的阳光，大多数人没有意识到它与睡眠的联系，因为很难理解早上第一小时做一些事情来提高警觉性和刺激皮质醇水平，怎么会在14小时后让你成为更好的睡眠者。

So, you know, over time, I mean, Matt started to adopt that. I mean, I think he also pointed out the detriment of alcohol and cannabis on sleep, which I, you know, which I echo. I think also if you think just back even six years, seven years, we weren't aware of the number of over the counter compounds that can be helpful for sleep. You know, people are still thinking about prescription drugs for sleep, which, you know, have their place for certain people. But most people hadn't considered mag three and a fiending Camomile. Now I would add to that saffron tart cherry. We know we can increase. Apigenin. Apigenin and Camomile extract. Similar. Lemon bomb. Lemon bomb skull cap. You know, it sounds kind of crazy. Right. It sounds like we're behind the counter at some like a month. A creed. I have mutin a fucking wizard tail.

所以，你知道，随着时间的推移，我是说，Matt 开始接受这一点。我的意思是，我想他也指出了酒精和大麻对睡眠的负面影响，这一点我也很赞同。我认为如果你回顾一下，就算是六七年前，我们对于一些有助于睡眠的非处方成分的了解还不够。那时人们仍然在考虑用处方药来改善睡眠，这对某些人来说有它的作用。但大多数人并没有考虑到镁三、茶氨酸、洋甘菊。现在我会再加上藏红花、酸樱桃。我们知道可以增加芹菜素，芹菜素和洋甘菊提取物相似。再有柠檬香蜂草、柠檬香蜂草、头骨盖，你知道的，这听起来有点疯狂，好像我们是在一些神秘地方，像是在吐露一个有魔法的故事一样。

Right. I mean, I didn't come here to do an A.G.Z. plug. But I basically I've played around with a number of different non-supplement things for sleep over the years because I'm an experimenter in and out of the lab. And I mean, I can tell you a wild story from high school where the girl sitting behind me. I remember her name. I was Aaron Cronard. Her mom had some tablets, some Chinese medicine tablets. And I took one, she's because I was having some issues sleeping and she gave me one. And I the whole night I was wide awake hearing music blaring from behind my head. And I think I was in a pseudo sleep state. I thought I was a way I was like, that's really scary. But I was like, whether compounds that really work for sleep and then, you know, there are things like the peptide pinealin I experimented with a bit. Not a not a lot of human studies at all. Some interesting rodent studies may regenerate the pinealocytes in the in the pineal.

好的。我不是来推销A.G.Z.产品的。不过，我尝试过很多跟睡眠有关的非补充剂方法，因为我本身就是一个喜欢在实验室内外进行试验的人。我可以给你讲一个我高中的疯狂故事：当时坐在我后面的女生叫艾伦·克罗纳，她妈妈有一些中药药片，我因为睡眠有问题，她就给了我一片。那一晚上，我完全没睡着，感觉头后面有音乐在响，好像处于一种半梦半醒的状态，那真的让我有点害怕。我就在想，是否有一些化合物真的能帮助睡眠？后来我还尝试了一种叫松果体素的肽，这方面的人体研究很少，但一些有趣的动物研究显示它可能会再生松果体细胞。

It gives me like two hours a night of REM sleep. But I will say having completely halted pinealin, I did a short run experiment with it. We'll say that the formulation that's an AGZ has me sleeping with double the amount of REM sleep and at least a third more slow-wave deep sleep every night. And I can only drink about two thirds of that stuff before it's almost like too much, not because it's too much volume, but because my any more in my dreams are just too elaborate. You know what's magic about it? I think it's that has a bunch of different things in it. So again, I didn't come here to plug AGZ, but I think that they really nailed it in the sense that in the last 10 years, the scientific community, the health and wellness community has really come to the conclusion that there are things that can nudge your sleep in the right direction.

它让我每晚有大约两个小时的快速眼动（REM）睡眠。但我想说的是，当我完全停止使用松果体素后，我做了一个短期实验。我们可以这么说，AGZ的配方让我每晚的REM睡眠翻倍，至少多了三分之一的慢波深度睡眠。而且我只能喝大约三分之二的量，因为再多的话，我的梦会变得太复杂。你知道它神奇在哪里吗？我认为是因为里面有很多不同的成分。再次声明，我不是为了宣传AGZ而来的，但我认为他们确实做得很棒。过去十年里，科学界和健康与保健界确实认识到有些东西可以帮助改善你的睡眠。

So just being told like if you don't sleep, you're going to die of dementia is scary. You want to give people agency. In other news, if you're feeling tired, you might not need more sleep, you might not need more caffeine, you might just be dehydrated. And proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water. It's about having sufficient electrolyte to allow your body to properly absorb those fluids. So the sodium potassium and magnesium with no color, no sugar, no artificial ingredients or any other BS. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, it optimizes brain health, regulates your appetite, helps curb cravings. And that's why it's used by everyone from Dr. Andrew Huberman to Olympic athletes and FBI sniper teams.

如果有人告诉你“不睡觉会导致痴呆而死亡”，听起来会很吓人。我们希望人们有选择的权利。另一方面，如果你感到疲惫，可能不需要更多的睡眠或咖啡因，可能只是身体缺水。正确的补水不只是喝够水，还需要有足够的电解质来帮助身体有效吸收这些液体。因此，使用不含色素、糖分、人工添加剂或其他不良成分的钠、钾和镁是非常重要的。它们在减少肌肉痉挛和疲劳、优化大脑健康、调节食欲与抑制食物渴望方面起着关键作用。这就是为什么从安德鲁·胡贝曼博士到奥运会运动员以及FBI狙击小组成员都在使用这些电解质的原因。

This lemon. Lemonade flavor Nicole glass of water is how I've started my morning every single wait for years. They've got no questions asked refund policy, so you can return it and they won't even ask you to send the box back. Plus you can get free sample pack of their favorite flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink element T dot com slash modern wisdom. What would you say to people who are struggling to fall asleep though maybe they've done most of the things sort of through the day that you're supposed to they're not taking caffeine too late at night, they're maybe having a hot shower. The rooms cool it's quiet it's dark. They've seen some morning sunlight but calming down a racing mind at night is a challenge that I think a lot of hard charges will deal with.

这柠檬。柠檬水味的Nicole一杯水是我多年来每天早晨的开始。他们有无条件退款政策，所以你可以退货，他们甚至不要求你把盒子寄回去。此外，通过点击下面描述中的链接或访问drinkelementT.com/modernwisdom，你还可以在首次购买时获得免费样品包，里面有他们最喜欢的口味。对于那些在睡觉前难以入睡的人，你会怎么说呢？也许他们已经做了大部分白天该做的事，比如没有在太晚的时候喝咖啡、洗个热水澡、让房间保持凉爽、安静和黑暗，也看过早晨的阳光。但要在夜晚让忙碌的心平静下来，对很多坚持追求的人来说仍是一种挑战。

What are some strategies for slaying that down. Yeah well one thing that I think is really important is that if somebody's very health conscious in a hard charger they're very likely eating pretty clean and one of the challenges for many people not all to falling asleep is that their starchy carbohydrate intake is just not high enough. You know if you if you go on a very low starch diet like let's say you just go you know meat fruit vegetables or you go pure keto you'll have a lot more energy some people who follow that kind of regimen can sleep well some people like myself find that unless I have some rice or oatmeal at some point during the day, especially if I'm doing resistance training it's actually very hard to fall and stay deeply sleep and if I just add you know I guess you call it porridge we call it oatmeal.

有哪些策略可以帮助改善这个问题呢？我认为有一点非常重要，那就是如果一个人非常注重健康并且十分努力，他们很可能会吃得比较清淡。然而，对于许多人来说，特别是并不是所有人都如此，入睡困难的一个原因是他们摄入的淀粉类碳水化合物不够多。你知道的，如果你采用非常低淀粉的饮食，比如只吃肉、水果和蔬菜，或者纯粹是生酮饮食，你的精力会充沛得多。而遵循这种饮食方式的一些人可能睡得很好，但像我这样的有些人发现，除非我在一天中某个时候吃些米饭或燕麦，尤其是在进行抗阻训练的时候，否则很难进入深度睡眠。如果我只是加一些比如粥，我们称之为燕麦粥，就会有所改善。

But a small amount of starch in the form of whatever starch is fine for you I eat starches I realize this is heretical in the in the health and wellness space but you know I'm some rice or some homemade pasta or some sourdough bread or you know oatmeal or something. If you're having trouble falling asleep take a look at how much starch you're having I don't recommend gorging yourself a starch late in the day but having some starchy carbohydrates in your final meal which probably comes what two three hours before sleep or something like that. Can certainly help a number of people fall and stay asleep I said that many times I said you know I did meet and fruit as a part of trying to fix my health because brain inflammation was really high I was getting a lot of brain fog memory loss.

但少量的淀粉对你来说是可以的。我吃淀粉类食物，我意识到这在健康和保健领域可能是有悖常理的，但你知道，我会吃一些米饭、或自制的意大利面、或一些酸面包，或燕麦片之类的东西。如果你难以入睡，可以看看你吃了多少淀粉。我不建议在一天快结束时吃大量的淀粉，但在最后一餐中加入一些富含淀粉的碳水化合物，通常是在入睡前两三个小时左右，确实可以帮助很多人入睡并保持睡眠。我多次提到过，我试过通过吃肉类和水果来改善健康，因为我的大脑炎症非常严重，导致我常常感到脑雾和记忆力减退。

One of the things that I found that could counter at that little bit was going very very low carb but that also impacted my sleep and I felt wired but tied very adrenaline. Yeah all the time sure like sort of always on as if I and my caffeine was limited as well so trying to limit stimulants I always felt on edge yeah so ambient anxiety thing and it impacted my sleep fragmentation was fucking horrendous and like well can I have a rice cake or like two rice cakes before an hour before I go to bed to try and sort of kink me into this a little bit and experimented with a bunch of that but yeah it's a if you are carnival of meat and fruit keto.

我发现一种可以稍微对抗这种状态的方法是采用极低碳水化合物饮食，但这也影响了我的睡眠。我感到精神紧张却很疲惫，肾上腺素水平很高。我总是感觉时刻处于警觉状态，即使我的咖啡因摄入量很有限，所以为了限制兴奋剂，我一直感到紧张不安。这种持续的焦虑感影响了我的睡眠质量，导致睡眠断续，情况非常糟糕。所以，我尝试在睡前一个小时吃一个或两个米饼，看看能否稍微改善这种情况。我也尝试了很多方法，但如果你是主食肉类和水果的生酮饮食爱好者，这种情况可能会出现。

So I wonder what the net effect is when you account for what's happening to sleep and I'm sure that many people can sleep well on low carb of different stripes but I for one couldn't and then I'm like having to weigh this up like how many how much carbs can I have before brain inflammation makes me feel a little bit more sluggish and more tired and I need to have some in order to make me so that was a yeah become a little bit of a devil's dance. I mean it we returned our discussion about cortisol from earlier cortisol's job is to deploy energy into the body and for the brain under conditions of stress or just getting up in the morning I mean the transition from sleep to awake is a massive state shift it's a normal healthy one but it's a massive state shift in terms of mobilization requirements and thought requirements and just the ability to linearize your thought which is nerd speak for the ability to think not dream right or be unconscious essentially.

我很好奇，当我们考虑到睡眠状态的变化时，整体效果会是什么。我确信很多人在低碳饮食下也能睡得很好，但是我不行。于是，我不得不权衡一下，摄入多少碳水化合物会导致大脑炎症，让我感觉更疲惫、更懒散，而我又需要一些碳水化合物来保持活力。这就像在玩一场危险的平衡游戏。这让我想起之前我们讨论过的皮质醇，皮质醇的工作是在压力状态下或早晨起床时，为身体和大脑提供能量。实际上，从睡眠状态到清醒状态的过渡是一个巨大的变化，这是完全正常健康的变化，但在能量调动、思维要求以及将思维线性化（简单来说就是懂得思考而不是做梦或无意识）的能力上，都需要一个很大的转变。

So when you have low circulating glucose or energy stores cortisol's job is to mobilize glucose so when you're on a low carbohydrate diet your baseline cortisol is a little bit higher this actually has been examined okay so here's the deal if you're on a low carbohydrate diet for a period of time I think in this case it was three weeks or more your cortisol curve that high in the morning low in the afternoon and evening kind of normalizes a bit it's still a little bit higher at every point then it normally would be but if you suddenly switch from eating carbohydrates when I say carbohydrates I mean star chief carbohydrates okay well let's leave aside sugar and fructose and et cetera and which of course is a former sugar but if you shift from a sort of standard macronutrient distribution of you know forty thirty thirty whatever it is where you're eating starches to a low carbohydrate diet your cortisol levels go up significantly.

当你的体内循环葡萄糖或能量储备较低时，皮质醇的作用是动员葡萄糖。因此，当你采用低碳水化合物饮食时，你的基础皮质醇水平会稍微高一些。这一点已经被研究过。是这样的：如果你长期（比如三周或更长时间）坚持低碳水化合物饮食，你的皮质醇曲线——早晨高、下午和晚上低——会有一些正常化的趋势，不过每个时段仍然比通常情况要高一些。但是，如果你突然从吃碳水化合物（这里指淀粉类碳水化合物，暂且不谈糖、果糖等，当然它们也算是一种糖）转为低碳水化合物饮食，你的皮质醇水平会显著上升。

This has been explored over time they normalize so that I think the important thing for people to remember is when we talk about comfort foods people have taken that that phrase to mean junk foods pizza ice cream uh-uh those aren't the comfort foods that were originally described as comfort foods the comfort foods that were coined comfort foods are starchy warm foods which guess what suppress cortisol because when those foods are available your your brain and essentially your dreamals know that you don't have to mobilize from stored sources it's already circulating so it makes perfect sense so I mean this is just one kind of you asked for like what people could do I think take a look at your nutrition star you exercising too late in the day can you move that to the morning can you never want to be reduced.

这段话的意思是：随着时间的推移，人们已经习惯了一种错误的观念。重要的是要记住，当我们谈论“安慰食物”时，很多人认为这指的是垃圾食品，比如比萨饼和冰激凌。但最初被称为“安慰食物”的，并不是这些。安慰食物指的是富含淀粉、热乎乎的食物，因为这些食物有助于抑制皮质醇。当这些食物可以获得时，你的大脑和身体实际上知道你不需要动用体内储存的能量，因为身体已经有足够的营养循环起来了。这是有道理的。你问了关于人们可以做些什么的问题，我认为你可以看看自己的饮食。比如你是在太晚的时候锻炼吗？能不能改在早晨运动？这样也许有助于减少压力。

The intensity because frankly you know as Dorian eight has been saying so beautifully late lately like reps and reserve a result in reserve you know we could talk about that but you know I think most people are probably not pushing hard enough but some people are just pushing way too hard in the gym way too late and then their cortisol levels are elevated makes perfect sense why you couldn't sleep so I say look at look your diet make sure you're getting enough starches at some point throughout the day maybe even taking in a few starches in the couple of hours before sleep and just see how your sleep does.

强度方面，正如Dorian Eight最近常说的，努力训练和保留体能之间存在平衡。我们可以讨论这个问题，但我认为大多数人可能没有足够努力地锻炼，而有些人则在健身房过度努力，直到很晚，这导致他们的皮质醇水平升高，因此睡不着是很自然的现象。所以，我建议检查一下你的饮食，确保你在一天中的某个时候摄入足够的淀粉类食物，甚至可以在睡前的几个小时内摄入一些淀粉类食物，然后观察你的睡眠情况。

There's some interesting data although you people should talk to their doctor about taking very low dose one milligram lithium I think it's the oritate form in order to encourage the ability to fall asleep and get more deep sleep but of course we're talking about lithium here so people need definitely talk to your doctor there's some other things to you know look at your lighting environment of course but I think for a lot of people the major issue with falling asleep is that they can't forget about the position of their body and this is where the data becomes super interesting there are some technologies that are being spun up right now some of which I've had the opportunity to dabble with and I have no financial relationship to but I sure wish I did because it is so cool imagine a sleep mask that could put you to sleep.

有一些有趣的数据表明，人们可以考虑在医生的指导下尝试服用低剂量，一毫克的锂，我认为是以乳清酸锂的形式，以帮助入睡并增加深度睡眠。当然，由于是锂，所以一定要先咨询医生。除此之外，还有其他方法，比如改善你的光照环境。然而，我认为对许多人来说，无法入睡的主要问题是他们很难不去注意自己身体的姿势。这就是数据显示出超级有趣的地方。目前有一些技术正在开发中，我有机会试过一些（我与这些技术没有经济关系，但真希望有，因为它们真的很酷）。试想一下，有一种睡眠面罩可以帮助你入睡。

Okay okay how would it do that well it turns out that I movements are not just present during rapid eye movement sleep but one of the prerequisites for falling asleep is that you forget about your body position you're not like how this is uncomfortable that doesn't belong there you shut down what's called proprioception your awareness of body position so there's actually some interesting data and here I'm clinging from a few places I want to be fair because one about to say sounds kind of kooky but this works for many many people who are having trouble falling asleep or getting back to sleep you can try this tonight I do this often it works for me keep your eyes closed or you close your eyes you move your eyes relatively slowly to one side then the other side one side then the other side then you move your eyes in a counter clockwise circle and then a clockwise circle then up then down and then you sort of do a kind of faux cross eye attempt.

好的，好的，怎么做呢？事实证明，眼动不仅仅在快速眼动睡眠中存在，入睡的先决条件之一是你要忘记自己的身体姿势，而不是觉得这样不舒服或那个地方不合适。你会关闭所谓的本体感受，就是对身体位置的感知。实际上，有一些有趣的数据支持我的说法。我想公平地说，因为接下来要说的东西听起来有点古怪，但这对于很多入睡困难或半夜醒来的人来说确实有效。你今晚可以试试，我自己经常用这个方法，也很管用。方法是，保持眼睛闭着或闭上眼睛，慢慢地将眼球移向一侧，然后是另一侧，一侧再到另一侧，然后逆时针转动眼球，再顺时针转动眼球，然后向上，再向下，最后尝试做一个假装对眼。

You sort of look down towards the bridge of your nose and you exhale which is going to slow your heart right down now what is all this nonsense about eye movements did I just do this as a joke to see if you would do it the truth is if you do this when you're trying to fall asleep your vestibular system which is essentially in working in concert with your eyes for reasons we could talk about but your cerebellum and your vestibular system are essentially transitioning from where you need to be very aware of your body position and make adjustments all the time to one in which you're forgetting about body position and we know and their great data showing that a very slow rocking of a bed will help put you to sleep when you rock back and forth your body doesn't have like a little metronome in it says I'm rock it's your eye movements that compensate in the opposite direction which tell your cerebellum hey we're rocking this is why if you're on a boat and this and the horizon is going like this you get see see because you can't orient to kind of dead zero for you know pitch yaw and roll and so anyway I don't want to get too technical here but if you have trouble sleeping try what I just described a few times many people find that it helps them fall asleep because you stop thinking about your body position.

你稍微向下看向鼻梁，然后呼气，这会让你的心跳慢下来。那关于眼球运动的说法是不是胡扯呢？我只是开个玩笑，看你会不会试吗？其实，如果你在入睡时这样做，你的前庭系统（与眼睛协同工作）和小脑会从需要注意身体姿势并不断调整，转变为不关注身体姿势的状态。有研究数据表明，缓慢摇晃床会帮助入睡。当你来回摇晃时，身体并没有一个像节拍器一样的部分来告诉你自己在摇晃，而是通过眼球在相反方向的补偿运动提醒小脑“嘿，我们在摇晃”。这就是为什么如果你在船上，看到地平线这样摇晃，你会感到晕船，因为你无法锁定身体在俯仰、偏航和横滚方面的“中点”。所以，如果你睡眠困难，可以尝试我刚才描述的方法，很多人发现这有助于入睡，因为这样可以让你不再想着身体姿势。

And of course, bed coolness, room coolness, all can help, but what I just described can be very, very helpful for a number of people whose minds are racing because if their mind is racing, you also need to give people something to do with their mind. You can't just say like, don't think about it or stop thinking or just go to sleep, that doesn't work. You can say just wake up, but you can't say just go to sleep. There's a weird asymmetry built into our autonomic nervous system that way. So funny.

当然，床的凉爽和房间的凉快都可以帮助入睡，但我刚才描述的方法对那些思维活跃不停思考的人非常有帮助。当他们的思维在快车道上奔驰时，需要给他们的大脑一些可以做的事情。你不能只是简单地告诉他们不要想、停止思考或者直接去睡觉，这些方法都不管用。你可以告诉别人醒来，但你不能直接告诉他们去睡觉。这是因为我们的自主神经系统有一种奇特的不对称性，真的很有趣。

Two things that I found because WideBetide has been kind of the fucking summary to the last 18 months for me, fighting with the health stuff. One from Matt, which is a mind walk. Do you take into this? Yeah, you go through a walk that you're very familiar with. Yeah, has that been helpful? Wonderful. Oh, great. One of the things that I found by doing that, the people that didn't listen to the episode, they can go back and listen to the one I did with Matt a few months ago, brilliant.

在过去的18个月里，WideBetide对我来说就像一个总结，因为我一直在与健康问题作斗争。我发现了两件事。一件是来自Matt的“思维漫步”。你有尝试过吗？就是走一条你非常熟悉的路。这个方法对你有帮助吗？太棒了。通过这样做，我发现了一些东西。没听过那期节目的朋友，可以回去听听我几个月前和Matt一起录的那一集，非常精彩。

Basically, you can imagine that you're going for a walk somewhere that you know unbelievably well and try and do it with as much resolution as possible. So I go to the cupboard, I open the cupboard doors, I've got my shoes in there, I take them out to my right hand that reaches in, I put them on the floor, I get the shoehorn, everyone needs a shoehorn. Left foot in, right foot in, I get the key, I know the sound of the key, I close the doors, I turn around, I go toward the door, I put it in, I turn it, that's the feeling of the door, I get outside, I feel a little bit...

基本上，你可以想象自己正在一个你非常熟悉的地方散步，并尽量以非常详细的方式进行。我走到柜子前，打开柜门，把鞋子拿出来放在地上，用右手拿鞋，然后穿上鞋。我拿起鞋拔，每个人都需要鞋拔。左脚穿进去，右脚穿进去，我拿起钥匙，记得钥匙发出的声音，关上柜门，转身走向门口，把钥匙插进去，转动它，感受到门的触感，走到外面，感觉有点……

All of that stuff, and what, at least what I found is what I'm falling asleep, the sort of, I'm on a journey, this is an adventure thing, is like reading fiction, and the I have problems to solve, this is executive function, it's like reading nonfiction, and for me, the former helps me fall asleep way more than the latter, so that's the first thing. The second thing is resonance breathing.

所有这些事情，至少我发现，当我快要入睡的时候，我正在经历一种“我在旅途中，这是场冒险”的感觉，就像是在阅读小说。而当我有问题需要解决时，就像是在阅读非小说类书籍。这种冒险的感觉比处理问题的思维更能帮助我入睡。这是第一点。第二点是共振呼吸。

I think this, if I was to pick, first to flick a little bit of money onto the roulette table of the next five years of health, I think HIV resonance breathing is gonna be fucking huge, and there's a couple of products, one in particular that I'm super, super excited about, it's this cool lamp, so imagine a bedside lamp, and on the top of it is a little divot, like a little pocket, and that's got a stone in it. You take the stone out, the stone's got an FDA HIV sensor, you just hold the stone in your hand, and you can either turn the light of the lamp on or off and sounds and all the rest of the stuff, but it does 36, 9, 12 minute sessions with like a super high fidelity sensor.

我觉得，如果让我选择未来五年内健康领域的一个热点，我会押注在HIV共振呼吸技术上。我认为这将会有很大的发展。而且有几个相关产品让我感到非常兴奋，其中一个特别吸引我。它就像一个很酷的灯，想象一下床头灯的样子，灯的顶端有一个小凹槽，里面放着一块石头。你可以把石头拿出来，这块石头带有FDA认证的HIV传感器。你只需要把石头握在手里，就可以控制床头灯的灯光、声音等功能。这个设备可以进行36次、9次或12分钟的高精度传感器检测。

And it means if you're struggling to fall asleep on a nighttime, we can just sort of grab it, put it in your hand, do the breathing, based on like a tactile vibration, coming from the stone too, so it can all be silenced, so if your partner's in the bed next to you, can do that, and it knows when you hit resonance as well, when you get into that maximum vagal tone, and then you just pop it back on the top, and the top of it is an induction charger for the stone.

这句话的大意是：如果你在晚上难以入睡，我们可以拿起这个装置，把它放在手里，通过来自石头的触觉振动来进行呼吸练习，这整个过程是安静的。如果你的伴侣在你旁边床上，也可以这样做。而且这个装置能感知到你达到最佳状态（最大迷走神经张力）的时候。之后，你只需把它放回顶部，而顶部是为石头设计的感应充电器。

I was like, this is the fucking sickest, I don't know how it makes this. It's a company called OM-OHM, it's currently in dark mode, I think OM.health. No, I need more. Well, yeah, no, no, I just told the world. That's true. I don't even know if you can buy them. But yeah, Jay Wiles, who's my sleep coach, from Absolutely Rest, he's Andy Galpinsky, Jay's a part of it, and I think I'm the first person outside of the company to have got one. I was like, this fucking rules, because HIV resonance breathing is great and makes you feel really good.

我当时就觉得，这真是太棒了，我都不知道它是怎么做到的。这是一个叫OM-OHM的公司制造的，目前处于暗模式状态，我想是在OM.health上。不过，我需要更多。是的，我刚刚告诉了全世界。没错，我甚至不知道你是否能买到它。不过，Jay Wiles是我的睡眠教练，来自Absolutely Rest，他是Andy Galpinsky的一部分，而我可能是公司外第一个得到这个产品的人。我当时就觉得，这简直太酷了，因为HIV共振呼吸真的很不错，让人感觉非常好。

But if you're gonna use elite HIV, and you've gotta put the strap thing around your arm or your wrist, and then you gotta press it, and you've gotta connect the Bluetooth, and it's gotta be up to, and you go to your phone, and for any of you in all the way, there's no just stand alone, pick it up and go of this, and the fact that it's a lamp, it looks really beautiful, the entire rest of the shit. Anyway, I've been using that.

如果你要使用高级HIV设备，你需要把绑带套在手臂或手腕上，然后按下按钮，再把它连接到蓝牙，你还得打开手机。整个过程中没有简单的步骤可以直接完成，它不像是那种可以随拿随用的设备。不过，它的外观像灯一样，非常漂亮。总之，我一直在用这个设备。

So between those two, the mind walk thing for me was very, very powerful, but some days, you need a more physiological intervention, and the resonance breathing. Those two things, for me, I think, I'm struggling to fall asleep on a nighttime, but the eye movement stuff, I think, has got a lot of legs. So stack all of those together, I'm gonna be cross-eyed, imagining that I'm going for a walk, holding a stone in my hand, breathing. Not excessively cross-eyed.

在这两者之间，对我来说，“思维漫步”非常有力，但有些日子你需要更多生理上的干预，比如共振呼吸。这两者对我来说都很有帮助，尤其是在我晚上难以入睡时，而眼球运动的方法我觉得很有潜力。所以把这些方法结合起来，我会想着去散步，手里握着一块石头，进行呼吸练习，但不会过于夸张地两眼斗鸡。

It's just more like you sort of look, it's like you're sort of looking down, and there are these nuclei in the brainstem that literally control levels of wakefulness. When you look up, it's essentially activating the arm of your autonomic nervous system, which makes you more alert. It says, wow, and eyelids open. It's really interesting. And when you look down and bring your eyelids down, you're actually pedaling on the circuits that promote sleepiness, or at least that are more parasympathetic. I mean, it makes good sense.

这段话的大意是：当你向下看时，就像你在看大脑干中的一些核，这些核直接控制清醒的程度。而当你向上看时，实际上是在激活自主神经系统的一部分，这让你更警觉，眼睛更睁开。这真的很有趣。而当你向下看并闭上眼皮时，实际上是在刺激那些促进困倦的神经通路，或者说是更偏向副交感神经的通路。这一切真的很有道理。

In other news, I've been drinking H1 every morning for years and I do. Do you try to fastball me that? That was down the plate, and I've just show Hey, or Tani did. I've been drinking H1 for as long as I can remember. It is the best all-in-one drink that I've ever found, and that's why I'm such a fan of them, and that's why I partnered with them as well. I have got my mum to start taking it, my dad to start taking it, and all of my friends as well. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't.

在其他新闻中，我想说我每天早上都喝H1饮料，这已经好多年了。你想让我快点试试这个吗？这是个好选择，就像大谷翔平那样表现出色。我喝H1喝了很久，这款饮料是我发现的最好的全合一饮品，这也是我为什么这么喜欢它并与他们合作的原因。我已经让我妈妈开始喝了，我爸爸也开始喝，我的所有朋友也是。如果我找到更好的，我会换，但目前为止还没有。

Why do you keep throwing it at the mic? Stop throwing it at the mic. See, anyway, over 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients, got probiotics and prebiotics. Also NSF certified, meaning that even Olympians can use it. And in the throat, in the throat, how dare you? I hit the... I hit the... I hit the... Oh, you're all... Ah! Ah! This isn't even an ad read anymore, it's just a f***ing war zone. Oh, okay, okay.

你为什么一直往麦克风上扔它？别再往麦克风上扔了。看，这里有超过75种维生素、矿物质和全食物来源的成分，还有益生菌和益生元。并且通过NSF认证，奥运选手都可以使用它。而在喉咙，在喉咙，真是不可思议。我撞到了……我撞到了……哦，你们都……啊！这已经不再是广告了，简直就像是战场。哦，好吧，好吧。

Anyway, if you two want something to throw at your friends or a tasty blend of 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food source ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop, it's here, go to drinkagg1.com, such a modern wisdom for stuff. Ah, thank you. We talked to you about this raised head for glimphatic clearance thing, because if anyone's got an eight-sleep with the mattress raising functionality, one of the things it does for sleep is it actually raises your head a little bit. Is that... That's good. Related to what we're talking about here, you want head above feet, head above feet.

无论如何，如果你们俩想找点东西扔给朋友，或者想要每天早上喝一勺的、含有75种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和天然食材的美味混合饮品，可以去drinkagg1.com看看，真是现代智慧的结晶。啊，谢谢你。我们之前和你聊过关于提高头部位置以促进脑脊液排泄的事情，因为如果有人有八睡床功能的床垫，它可以稍微抬高你的头部。这个功能对睡眠是有好处的，因为我们这里谈到的就是，你想要头部高于双脚，头部高于双脚。

Yeah, I think they designed that for snoring, but it has other benefits. So without doing an entire lecture on the lymphatic system, because we did a solo on that recently in my podcast, I mean, I'll just say the lymphatic system is amazing. It's amazing, and I liken it to the microbiome where 10 years ago, 15 years ago, if you talked about the microbiome, people were like, that's just crazy. They're fermented low sugar foods. Like, this is like health food lunacy. Now, I mean, they're probably close to a, you know, maybe $500 million or a billion even in federal grants, certainly in the US and around the world looking at the microbiome.

是啊，我想他们设计那个是为了对抗打鼾，不过它还有其他好处。我就不详细讲淋巴系统的知识了，因为我们最近在我的播客里刚对这个做了详细讲解。我只能说淋巴系统真的很神奇。我把它比作微生物群，十年前、十五年前，如果你谈论微生物群，大家可能会觉得这只是无稽之谈，还觉得发酵的低糖食物是健康食品的狂热想法。现在，在美国甚至全世界，研究微生物群的联邦资助也许接近5亿或甚至10亿美元。

It's important for everything. Mental health, physical health. We just know this, right? The gut is so important. The lymphatic system, I think, is gonna follow a similar trajectory. And all the stuff that we hear about rebounding, you know, bouncing on a trampoline or skipping rope, and all of that stuff turns out to be absolutely true. Or lymphatic massage, which is essentially a way of clearing. I love lymphatic massage. You know, it's interesting because lymphatic massage for those that are accustomed to deep tissue massage. It feels like nothing. It feels like nothing, but the lymphatic vessels run so superficially that if you press on them too hard, you actually, you cinch them off.

一切都很重要，包括心理健康和身体健康。我们都知道这点，对吧？肠道非常重要，我认为淋巴系统也会遵循类似的发展路径。我们听说过的那些关于跳跃的活动，例如在蹦床上反弹或跳绳，事实证明这些都是真的。还有淋巴按摩，基本上是一种清理的方式。我喜欢淋巴按摩。有趣的是，对那些习惯深层组织按摩的人来说，淋巴按摩感觉好像什么都没做。但正因为淋巴管位置很浅，如果按压过重，反而会阻碍它们的功能。

It feels like it being stroked by somebody. Yeah, I think they talk about a light brushing and then that, you know, maybe a little bit more emotion. There are deeper lymphatic vessels that can take more pressure, but people are trained to do this, do it right? And there's some tutorials online that there's a, a great account. I don't know the guy, but he was referred to me by Kelly Starrett. Tells me that stop chasing pain guy. He has this big six. I don't want to describe them here because I'll get them wrong, but he has a number of videos on Instagram and YouTube.

这感觉就像被某人轻轻抚摸。我想他们所说的是轻轻的刷动，然后可能会带着更多的情感。有更深层的淋巴管可以承受更大的压力，但人们需要经过训练才能正确地进行这种操作。网上有一些教程，其中有一个很棒的账号。我不认识那个家伙，但我通过Kelly Starrett了解到他。他告诉我有一个叫"Stop Chasing Pain"的人，他有一个“大六法”。我不想在这里详细描述，因为我可能会说错，但他在Instagram和YouTube上有很多视频。

The big six describes ways that you can encourage lymphatic massage. I always thought that the tapping here was kind of silly. It's actually because the lymphatic ducts drain back into the, essentially dump all the lymph that's been surveilled by your immune system, et cetera, back into the vascular system just below your clavicle. So funny. As another point, then we'll get to glimphatic clearance. I gave a shout out to someone I've never met. Don't have any association with business wise or anything.

"大六"指的是几种可以促进淋巴按摩的方法。我总是觉得在这个地方轻敲有点傻。其实，这是因为淋巴管会在这里把经过免疫系统过滤的所有淋巴液排入血管系统，就在锁骨下方。所以很有趣。接下来我们再讲到脑淋巴清除。我特别提到了一位我从未见过的人，也没有任何商业往来的关系。

This anesthesia beauty fascia is this woman, I think of Middle Eastern, excuse me, is this woman of Eastern European, it's certainly not Middle Eastern appearing, of Eastern European origin talking about non-surgical, non-botox interventions for facial augmentation for higher cheekbones and clearing away puffiness underneath the eyes for men and for women, but mostly what you see there are women. But what you find is that the before and afters, that these people list off and they insist that, I think they take an oath or something that they're not doing any injectables or surgeries are striking and it's lymphatic drainage from the face and from the scalp and from around the jaw. I mean, it is unbelievable.

这段话的大意是：这位麻醉医美专家是一位女性，我认为她是中东人，不好意思，她实际上是东欧人。她讨论的是面部美容的无创和非肉毒杆菌疗法，主要用于提升颧骨和消除眼下浮肿，适用于男女，但大多数受众是女性。你会发现，术前术后的对比照片显示的效果非常显著，这些人都坚持并且保证他们没有使用任何注射或手术。这种效果主要是通过面部、头皮和下巴周围的淋巴引流实现的，真是令人难以置信。

Okay, so in any case, the glimphatic system is... Is glimphatic, glimphatic, is it the same thing? So they're analogous. So for many, many years, it was thought that there was no lymphatic system in the brain. It was thought that it was actually for many years, we thought that the brain was immune privilege, turns out that's not true. You have all sorts of immune genes and proteins in the brain. But it turns out, and this was discovered some years ago, 2012 was actually discovered prior, but as science goes, it was kind of suppressed and then it was finally discovered that the during sleep, in particular deep sleep, the story goes, the spaces around the vascular of the brain get bigger.

好的，总之，不管情况如何，淋巴系统是……是淋巴系统吗？它们是相似的。多年来，人们认为大脑中没有淋巴系统。长期以来，人们认为大脑是“免疫特权”区域，但实际上并非如此。事实上，大脑中有各种免疫基因和蛋白质。结果在几年前发现，准确来说在2012年之前就已经发现，不过像很多科学发现一样，当时并没有引起足够重视。最后终于确认，在睡眠期间，特别是在深度睡眠期间，大脑血管周围的空间会变大。

Okay, you have these little cell types in the brain called astrocytes that are among the different types of glia and they have these little n-feet and they literally push the brain tissue out and away from the arteries and vessels and capillaries, allowing more cerebral spinal fluid, which is circulating in your brain all day long and collecting the waste from your cells and mind you, there's a lot of waste from your brain cells because your brain is the most metabolically active organ and then that needs to get washed out and actually goes out near the surface of your brain underneath what's called the meninges and then it flows down and then drains into the vascular system. If people can remember nothing else about lymphatic drainage, remember this muscular movement clears lymph in the body.

好的，你的脑子里有一种小细胞，叫星形胶质细胞，是不同类型的胶质细胞之一。它们有一些小“末端脚”，可以把脑组织推离动脉、血管和毛细血管，让更多的脑脊液流过你的大脑。脑脊液整天在你的脑中循环，收集细胞的废物。请注意，脑细胞产生很多废物，因为大脑是代谢最活跃的器官。这些废物需要被清除，实际上会流到大脑表面附近的膜下方，然后流入血管系统。如果人们对淋巴引流没法记住其他东西，请记住，肌肉运动能清除体内的淋巴。

Okay, so you need to walk low level muscular contraction. It essentially moves the lymph up because it's fighting gravity. These are one way valves. It brings it in from your limbs and it essentially dumps it back eventually into the blood supply. Inactivity of the body is what drives glimphatic clearance in the brain. Now, and so it's when you're essentially immobilized during sleep that you get the maximum amount of glimphatic clearance. Sleeping on your side, right or left side doesn't seem to matter with the head slightly tilted does seem to be the preferable position.

好的，你需要进行低强度的肌肉收缩。这样做实际上是帮助淋巴液向上移动，因为它需要对抗重力。淋巴液通过单向阀从四肢进入体内，然后最终排回到血液中。身体的不活动会推动大脑的“胶淋巴系统”清除废物。当你在睡眠时基本上不动时，能够获得最大程度的“胶淋巴系统”清理效果。侧卧睡眠，不论是右侧还是左侧，并配合头部略微倾斜，看起来是更好的睡觉姿势。

So all you back sleepers like me, you know, some people, you're a back sleeper. I have been a back sleeper. With that neck. With that neck. Unless I'm spooning, I'm a back sleeper. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, my back sleeper. But I've been working on sleeping on my side and I heard actually maybe Andy Galbons involved in some studies where subjects wear a fanny pack so that they can't sleep on their back. They have to sleep on their side. He sent me from absolute rest this huge fuck off roll thing which looks like soft furnishing. That's probably what it is.

所以所有像我一样睡觉仰面的人，你知道，有些人就是喜欢仰面睡。我一直都是仰面睡觉的，特别是我的脖子需要那样。除非有人和我依偎在一起，否则我都是仰面睡的。好吧，是的，是的，我就是个仰面睡觉的人。但我一直在努力尝试侧卧睡觉，我听说可能Andy Galbons参与了一些研究，研究中参与者需要穿腰包，这样他们就不能仰面睡，只能侧卧睡。他给我寄了个超级大的软垫，看起来像是家居软装，可能就是这个功能。

Yeah, well, I mean, this was, it's a big roll that goes down the middle of your back. So there's no way that you can be on your back at all. Okay, so that's how much you want. Calling it a fanny pack or a bum bag is a wild disservice to how colossal this thing is. It's a, you're just gonna have to hire somebody to spoon you, Chris. It just means that you'll have to give in to people. Well, I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned that you sleep well on your side. I can, you're on huberman, sleep doll. I like, I like sleeping on my side and it does feel good to hold somebody.

嗯，这个东西是一个很大的卷，正好放在你背部的中间。所以你根本没办法躺在背上。可以说，它的大小超出了你的想象。称它为腰包或小包真是太小看它了。你可能需要找个人陪着你睡觉，Chris。这意味着你可能要习惯接受别人的帮助。不过，你提到你侧睡时睡得好，这很有趣。我听说你在Huberman的节目上谈过睡眠，我也喜欢侧睡，而且抱着人睡感觉真的很好。

I suppose if you're a back sleeper, I do use the nasal strips to open up my breathing. If you tried intake, what'd you use? I just, I order some nose strips that online. I let me allow me to fucking fix your nose strip problem. Okay. Everyone has a nose strip problem if they're not using it. So these guys, they've got patents on it. Instead of it being a flexible, disposable thing, this is a hard 3D printed piece of plastic that's got magnets attached on both sides and then you put two magnet patches on the skin of your nose and then you...

我想，如果你是一个仰睡的人，我确实使用鼻贴来帮助呼吸。如果你尝试使用某种产品，你会用什么？我只是从网上订购了一些鼻贴。让我来帮你解决鼻贴问题吧。其实，如果没有使用鼻贴，每个人都有这个问题。这些家伙有专利设计，不再是那种一次性的柔性产品，而是一个硬质的3D打印塑料，两边都有磁铁，然后把两个磁片贴在你的鼻子皮肤上，然后你就可以使用了。

But no magnets at my nose. No, it's all on the outside. So two patches on the outside. And then you snap this non-disposable thing on and it's, I'm not kidding, it must be three times, four times, five times stronger than the normal ones and that's like, great, yeah, because I have pretty good respiration through my nose, but years ago I stupid accent actually in a lab and I cracked a sinus, it stood up, hit a freezer door and it was a whole story there.

没有在我的鼻子上放磁铁。不，全都是在外面。所以在外面有两个贴片。然后你把这个非一次性的东西扣上去，我不是开玩笑，它比普通的要强三倍、四倍、甚至五倍，这真好，因为我通过鼻子的呼吸能力不错。不过几年前，我在实验室里因为一个愚蠢的意外撞坏了一个鼻窦。当时我站起来撞上了一个冰箱门，这就是一个完整的故事。

So now when you talk about over not beers, so it's neither a rest drink. Did you drink? Intimately. When did I have beers recently? When did I have beers? After the show. Thank you. I'd be at the show. No shame in that. I haven't had alcohol in a long time, but we could talk about some of the injury stories are always fun. But yeah, I think that for glimphatic clearance that the data are very clear, that you want to, if you can sleep on your side, you're still gonna get glimphatic clearance if you sleep on your back of your head slightly elevated, not too much, but keep in mind that, you know, your body is fighting the glimphatic clearance in your legs is fighting gravity.

现在，当你谈论喝啤酒的问题时，这并不是一个可以放松的休闲饮品。你最近喝过酒吗？我最近是什么时候喝的啤酒？哦，对，是演出结束后。没什么好羞愧的。我已经很久没有喝酒了，但我们可以聊聊一些受伤的趣事，那总是很有意思。不过，我认为关于脑内清除废物系统的研究数据非常明确。如果可以，最好侧睡，这样能更好地进行脑内废物的清除。如果你仰卧睡觉，头部稍微抬高也能实现这种清除，但要记住，你的身体在进行脑内废物清除时，你腿部的清除也在与重力作斗争。

So in theory, you wanna be, if you wanna be, a little bit boba, not too much, right? Now what we do know is that if you sleep in a chair, these studies have been done in various sleep labs, if you sleep in a chair like on a flight or something like that, you would think, well, you must get a lot more glimphatic clearance. And you probably do, but you probably get a lot more lack of lymphatic drainage from the body. So there's some really nice pictures in these studies.

所以从理论上来说，如果你想要成为一个有点“波霸”风格的人，不要太过火，对吧？我们现在知道，如果你在椅子上睡觉，比如在飞机上或类似的场合，根据在各种睡眠实验室进行的研究，你可能会认为这样可以获得更多的脑脊液清除效果。可能是这样，但同时你可能会有更多的身体淋巴液排不出去。因此，这些研究中有一些非常有趣的图片。

Every mammal it seems puts its head down to sleep. I think giraffes actually just kind of like, drop their forehead onto the ground. But there are no mammals that, and someone will probably tell me I'm wrong here, and I'd love to see the examples, because I love animals. But the argument that's been made in these papers is that every mammal puts its head down to sleep.

每种哺乳动物似乎都低下头睡觉。我认为长颈鹿实际上只是把额头轻轻靠在地上。但没有哪种哺乳动物不这样，当然可能会有人告诉我我错了，我很乐意看到这些例子，因为我喜欢动物。然而，这些论文中提出的论点是，每种哺乳动物睡觉时都会把头低下来。

And if you think about, take a picture of yourself sometime before sleep and after sleep. Or worse, take a picture of yourself after one really terrible night sleep. Just look at your face. A couple of things become clear. You look bloated, bags under people's eyes, that's build up of lymph. Okay, it's, you know, a couple hours late. That is. That's what that is. It's build up of lymph, which is why this anesthesia beauty fascia thing is about learning to kind of increase the portals for lymphatic drainage.

如果你考虑一下，可以在睡觉前和睡醒后给自己拍张照片。或者更糟糕的是，在一个特别糟糕的夜晚后拍张你的照片，看看你的脸。你会发现几件事情很明显：脸看起来浮肿、眼下有眼袋，这是淋巴积聚的结果。对，这就是问题所在。这也是为什么美容面部按摩关注于学习如何增加淋巴排毒通道的原因。

And it has a lot to do with the fascia because they run so closely together. They court the vessels, of course, it different depths relative to the fascia. But so that's a lot of what lymphatic drainage for aesthetics is. But look at yourself after sleep, your brain fog. The brain fog you feel after lack of sleep. The build up of crap is within the cerebral spinal fluid. It's all the ammonia, the carbon dioxide, all the, some protein fragments that have built up during the day.

这与筋膜有很大关系，因为它们彼此非常接近。它们紧贴着血管运行，在筋膜的不同深度存在。当然，这正是淋巴引流在美容中的主要作用之一。想想你自己，没睡好时的脑子迷糊。缺乏睡眠后，你感到的脑雾，实际上是脑脊液中积累的废物——包括氨气、二氧化碳和一些在一天中积累的蛋白质碎片。

And the more active you are with your brain, the more they build up and the more they need to be cleared out at night. So it, and then what's equally impressive, if you ask me, is take a look at that picture of yourself sleep deprived. You get a good night sleep the next night. Take a picture of yourself the next morning. You look like a completely different person, including the brightness of the eyes.

当你大脑活动越频繁，脑内废物就会积累得越多，因此晚上需要更多清除。如果你问我，同样令人印象深刻的是，你可以看看自己睡眠不足时的照片。然后下一晚好好睡一觉，第二天早上再拍张照片。你看起来就像完全不同的人，眼睛都更亮了。

So it turns out around the iris of your eye, that black dot in the middle. And around it. You can actually see when people haven't slept well. There's actually a change in color of the eyes that has to do with the accumulation of lymph in the anterior chamber of the eye. And the posterior chamber of the eye, which is where the light sensing tissue is, the retina, actually shares the same glimphatic clearance system as your brain.

原来在你眼睛虹膜周围，就是那个中间的黑点，以及它的周围，当一个人没有好好休息时，你其实可以看到眼睛颜色的变化。这是因为眼睛前房内淋巴液的堆积所导致的。眼睛的后房，也就是负责感光的视网膜所在的位置，实际上和你的大脑共享相同的淋巴清除系统。

And by the way, everything I'm talking about for brain for glimphatic clearance is true for spinal cord too. So for all this stuff about motor learning and people are so concerned about their spinal cord, all the athletes are thinking, I need a brain with most of your spinal cord just getting, but you need both. But the idea here is that when people look tired, the eyes look tired, it's not just in the eyelids being hooded, the eyes look glassy, they don't look quite right.

顺便提一下，我所谈到的关于大脑和脑胶淋巴清除的内容，同样适用于脊髓。所以，对于那些关注运动学习以及非常关心自己脊髓的运动员来说，他们可能会想，我需要一个大脑，而大部分的你只需要脊髓，其实你两者都需要。这里的重点是，当人们看起来疲惫的时候，不仅是眼皮下垂，眼睛看起来无神，显得不太正常。

And then they sleep well and their life comes back in the eyes, it's because they cleared the lymph from their eyes. Who knew that the ultimate looks maxing solution was to just get a bed at night sleeping, raise your head a bit. Right. So I think it's a pillow enough. Oh yeah, yeah, you don't have to, it's not too much. What you don't want is your head tilted back. And that's also, of course, a risk for apnea.

然后他们睡得很好，眼神又恢复了生气，这是因为他们清除了眼部的淋巴液。谁能想到，提升面容的终极解决方案竟然只是晚上睡觉时稍微抬高一下枕头。是的，我觉得一个枕头就够了。哦，对，你不用太过垫高，但也不要让头向后仰，这样做当然也有造成睡眠呼吸暂停的风险。

Right. I mean, this is just, you know, why all the bodybuilders and big guys dropped dead in their sleep, you know, often is because of, they just basically is fixating themselves. So I do think fixing snoring is important. The nose strip sound great. These are those magnets. about to try a mandibular device, you know, like a special mouth guard to try and adjust. Do you have apnea? A little, yeah, it's reminjews apnea. So it only happens in real life. And I should take a trip up to Stanford, to the other seriously, that there's a couple up there, Paul Erlich, who wrote the population bomb many years ago. I think he would say it probably didn't pan out. But, and Sandra Khan, who's, I think is in craniofacial surgery or orthodontics or something, they were the ones that wrote the book, JAWS. Not the don't, JAWS with, forward by Robert Sapolsky, Jared Diamond, I think wrote the introduction.

好的，我的意思是，这就是为什么所有健美运动员和那些体型魁梧的人常常在睡梦中突然去世，因为他们基本上都被窒息了。所以我确实认为解决打鼾问题很重要。鼻贴听起来不错，还有那些磁铁。我打算尝试一种下颌装置，也就是一种特殊的牙套，来调整我的情况。你有睡眠呼吸暂停吗？有一点，是一种比较轻微的呼吸暂停，只在现实生活中发生。我真该去斯坦福大学看看，那里有一些专家，比如多年前写了《人口炸弹》的保罗·埃尔里希，我想他会说预期并没有实现。此外，还有桑德拉·卡恩，她可能从事颅面外科或正畸学。他们合著了一本书，叫《JAW》，不是你想的那部电影，而是有罗伯特·萨波斯基和贾里德·戴蒙德写的前言和引言。

These are heavy hit or serious science academics. And they were the ones that talked about the, you know, the transition to soft foods, to packet-based foods, to baby food, has created this kind of massive explosion in the industry for orthodontics. So it was nest as work down stream from them. James Nest is. Yes, yeah. Yeah, Nestor's kind of the, his book was kind of the modern iteration of a lot of what they were saying. But, you know, they are, I think they're coming out with another book that's really pushing this thing, that the nasal breathing is real. The ability to, I can't quite do this, but can you close your mouth and put your entire tongue on the roof of your mouth without having to kind of curl it back behind your teeth? Is there space for your tongue on the roof? A little, my palate, I could do with a bit of expansion because I had 60th removed as a kid, like full from the top and two from the bottom, I think.

这些是非常有影响力或严肃的科学学者。正是他们谈到了向软食、包装食品和婴儿食品过渡，这种转变创造了口腔正畸行业的巨大增长。而詹姆斯·内斯特的工作是基于他们的研究成果。内斯特的书算是他们观点的现代阐述。不过，他们似乎准备出另一本书，强调鼻呼吸的重要性。比如，你能闭上嘴，将整个舌头放在上颚，而不必把它卷到牙齿后面吗？你的上颚有足够的空间让舌头放在上面吗？我有一点空间，但小时候拔了六颗牙，上面四颗，下面两颗，所以可能需要进一步扩展。

So, I mean, Max, who isn't here, my videographer had released, he's going through two or three really serious dental procedures. And with one of them, he was trying to do it through Invisalign and it was a slow, palatex bander. Invisalign do a palatex bander now. He's like, dude, this is gonna take like, fucking three years for me to do this, but they can do it a little bit more aggressively. Sounds like he's a kind of extreme case because Con and Ehrlich have this association with, you know, the muing guy, you know? Is that true? Is that real? Well, the muing thing is, it plays into this notion of getting your nasal breathing, it's like, you know, close your mouth, put your tongue on the roof, your mouth, and then can you swallow while, you know, pushing the, I'm describing this, you know, coarsely.

所以，我的意思是，Max，我的视频摄影师，他不在这里，他经历了两到三次非常严重的牙科手术。其中一次，他尝试通过Invisalign来解决问题，这需要一个缓慢的扩弓器。现在Invisalign也有扩弓器。他说，伙计，用这种方法可能要花三年时间，不过他们可以稍微激进一点。听起来他的情况比较特殊，因为Con和Ehrlich与那个“正牙舌位训练”的家伙有联系。那是真的吗？所谓正牙舌位训练，就是强调鼻腔呼吸的方法，比如闭上嘴，把舌头顶在上颚，然后试着吞咽。抱歉，我的描述有点粗略。

You know that the problem is, you know, anytime you get a figure like that, and I've never met him, I think his name is Mike Mew, right? Mew, anytime you get somebody who's kind of extreme off of the normal thrust of a one branch of medicine, it's good, that person is either gonna be ostracized or they're gonna have to go through some serious gymnastics to get acceptance. Look, my colleague David Spiegel. I love David. Vice-chair of psychiatry at Stanford, right? Very serious scientist clinician. His father and him developed hypnosis as a tool for pain management, smoking cessation, anxiety, even people going through chemotherapy. And the data are beautiful. They're 20% of people that do hypnosis for smoking cessation, have it in one session for life.

你知道，问题是，每当你遇到这样一个人物时，我指的是那个我从未见过的人，我想他的名字是迈克·缪，对吧？缪。任何时候你遇到一个在某个医学分支上走极端的人，这个人就可能会被排斥，或者他们就得经过极大的努力才能获得认可。比如，我的同事大卫·斯皮格尔。我很尊敬大卫。他是斯坦福大学精神病学系的副主任，是一位非常严谨的科学家和临床医生。他和他的父亲一起开发了将催眠作为疼痛管理、戒烟、焦虑，甚至帮助化疗中的人们的一种手段。数据非常好看。有20%接受催眠戒烟的人，仅在一次治疗中就能终生戒烟成功。

It's amazing. I mean, it's a brain plasticity accelerator, but had it not been David, right? Who's very thoughtful in how he approaches these discussions, how he frames it with science, how he explains what's going on, and just, his, like, and I'm not saying Mew isn't this way, I don't know him, haven't met him, although I've read some of his work. You know, but David has a special gift of the ability to frame what, for many people, be like hypnosis, are you kidding me? As a brain plasticity accelerator. Gentle convincing demeanor in David. Yes, and also broad training in all of psychiatry and in acceptance of other branches of medicine. He's not saying this is the way, and this is the only way, and there's this problem with my field. I'm here to fix the field.

这太神奇了。我是说，这是一个大脑可塑性加速器，但如果不是大卫的话，就不会有这么积极的结果。他在处理这些讨论时很周到，用科学框架来解释正在发生的事情。他有一种特别的天赋，能把很多人觉得像是催眠术的东西，解释为大脑可塑性加速器。大卫的态度温和而富有说服力，此外，他在整个精神病学领域受过广泛的训练，并且接受医学的其他分支。他并不是说这是唯一的方法，也没有说他的领域存在问题，他来是为了改进这个领域。

No, he's saying here's one tool in the toolkit, and there are other tools in the toolkit. He's also, and again, I'm not saying anything about Mew tacitly here. David Spiegel is exceedingly smart. Like he's on a whole other level of intellect, and yet he doesn't talk over anybody. He's extremely kind. So, you know, bedside manner, and how you bring your stuff forward is very true. Especially if you're going to be a revolutionary, or somebody that's at the sort of cutting edge for cutting frontier of this stuff. Now, I agree. I am, I've been thinking about this a lot this year. What do we need to know about the neuroscience of making habits setting more easy?

不，他的意思是，这是工具箱中的一个工具，而工具箱中还有其他工具。同时，我并不是在隐含地谈论Mew。David Spiegel非常聪明，属于非常高的智力水平，但他从不盛气凌人，而且非常亲切。因此，他的举止和表达方式非常重要，尤其是当你想成为一个革命性人物或走在领域前沿的人时。我同意这一点。今年我一直在思考这个问题：我们需要了解哪些关于神经科学的信息，以便让养成习惯变得更简单？

I imagine that there must be some really interesting. Oh, man. I just had James Clear on the podcast, and it's so interesting when you sit down with somebody who's like the habits guy, and you compare it against the neuroscience. And so there's sort of two ways into this. You know, and James has done a magnificent job of explaining things that people can do to improve their habits and reduce bad habits. The reason I'm so bullish about people understanding a little bit of mechanism behind the checklist of things to do is that I do think that when people understand mechanism, it gives them flexibility over the so-called protocols.

我想其中一定有一些非常有趣的内容。刚才，我和 James Clear 一起录制了播客。你知道的，当你和一位专注于习惯研究的人坐下来的时候，再将其与神经科学进行比较，会很有意思。对此，有两种不同的切入方式。James 成功地向大家解释了如何改善习惯和减少坏习惯。他做得非常出色。我鼓励大家多去了解一些有关习惯形成机制的原因是，我相信当人们了解机制后，他们在所谓的方法上会有更多的灵活性。

And I think it also allows them to customize those things for themselves. Let's face it, if you want to go online now and just say, what are the top 10 things I can do to improve my sleep, and you get a list, and you put those under refrigerator poem next to your bed, why does everyone just do that? It's because the way that people go about learning information strongly drives whether or not they apply that information. Okay, so in fairness to James and the incredible work that he's done, I'm gonna just kind of look at this a little bit through the lens of neuroscience. And I'm really glad that we're talking about this because one of the things that he said that I think is so, so true is that the thoughts and by extension, the emotions, but really the thoughts that you have right now, your ability to focus right now, is strongly driven by the inputs you received in the preceding hours and even days.

我认为这也允许他们为自己定制这些东西。说实话，如果你现在想上网查找提高睡眠质量的十大方法，然后把这些方法写下来贴在床头，为什么每个人都这么做呢？这是因为人们学习信息的方式会强烈影响他们是否会应用这些信息。为了公平对待詹姆斯和他所做的了不起的工作，我想从神经科学的角度来看待这一点。我很高兴我们讨论这个话题，因为他说的一件非常正确的事情就是，你现在的想法，进而包括情感，但主要是你的思维能力，专注能力，都是由之前几小时甚至几天收到的信息输入所强烈驱动的。

So one of the things that's really interesting about focus and attention, and a lot of habits have to do with it. I don't wanna procrastinate, I wanna do this. We can talk about exercise, but let's talk about cognitive stuff. It's very, very clear that if you have a hard time getting into a bout of work, or even staying focused, there's a very good chance, I believe, that your breaks between work and what you were doing before work was too stimulating. I'm a big advocate for boring breaks, and I'm a big advocate for silence before and after bouts of work for a couple of reasons.

关于专注力和注意力，有一件非常有趣的事情，大多数习惯都与之相关。很多时候，我们不想拖延，希望立即着手完成任务。我们可以谈论运动，但这里要讨论的是认知方面的问题。很明显，如果你发现自己很难进入工作状态，或者很难保持专注，我相信，很可能是因为你在工作之间的休息时间，或者工作前所做的事情过于刺激。我非常提倡无聊的休息，同时也提倡在工作之前和之后保持安静，这有几个原因。

Let's think about it on the back end. Let's say you're trying to learn something or read a book or just do something that you're not reflexively doing. You wanna create this habit. It's very clear that neuroplasticity, yes, requires. Alertness requires focus. You need sleep layer that night. I've been beating that drum for a number of years. It's also clear that reflection on what you were doing at some later time, just kind of like post-learning reflection, walking to your car, sitting on the plane for a second, thinking about a podcast you did earlier or something you heard or a discussion strongly reinforces the memories and the ability to work with the memories of new information.

让我们从结果角度来思考这个问题。假设你正在尝试学习某样东西、阅读一本书，或者做一些你不习惯的事情。你想形成一种习惯。很明显，神经可塑性确实需要专注和警觉。此外，晚上要有充足的睡眠。我多年来一直在强调这个观点。同样显而易见的是，在稍后的时间里反思你所做的事情，比如在学完之后的反思，在走向你的车时、在飞机上坐着时，想想你之前参加的播客、听到的内容或进行的讨论，这种反思能够有效强化记忆并增强处理新信息记忆的能力。

And this is something that we've given up largely because of our smartphones. You're constantly bringing in new sensory information. All the data I did an episode on how to best study and learn, I went to the data to find out because I have my methods, but that doesn't mean they're the best methods. Reading, rereading, note taking, highlighting, it's all fine, but it turns out that biggest lever is to self-test at some point away from the material. So testing is not just something for evaluation of others, it's a way that we should think, yeah, how much can I remember about that conversation? What was tricky? Okay, I don't remember that piece. I'm gonna go back and look it up.

这是我们很大程度上因为智能手机而放弃的东西。您不断地接收新的感官信息。我做了一期怎样最好地学习和研究的节目，我查阅了数据，因为我有自己的学习方法，但这并不意味着它们是最好的方法。阅读、重读、做笔记、做标记，这些都没问题，但事实证明，最大的关键是要在离开材料一段时间后进行自我测试。所以测试不仅仅是用于评价他人，它也是我们应该思考的一种方式。例如，我能记住那次对话中的多少内容？哪些地方比较难？如果有些东西记不住，我会回去查看。

All learning is, and this will sound like a giant duh, but all learning is anti-forgetting. How do we know this? Because if you have people read a passage, one, two, three, four, five times, versus one time and they self-test, one time in self-testing, significantly better. You ever had P2C Brown on the show? No. Author of Make It Stick? No, but I like the title. You need to bring Peter on. He was episode, I would guess, like 30, on Monom wisdom, you'll be 1,030. And the best synopsis that I got from him, learning how to learn, was learning is repeated recall, not repeated exposure. Yes, beautiful, right. Fucking money. Exactly. And that's exactly, and this is... This is having house forgetting curve. That's a duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Guys like him, guys like James Clear, that they have a real, when I say unconscious genius, I mean, clearly they put thought into, and structure into what they teach, but the neuroscience supports everything you just said, which is what he just said.

所有的学习，其实说白了，就是为了避免遗忘。听起来可能很简单，但事实就是这样。我们怎么知道的呢？因为如果让人读一段文字，一两三四五遍，相比只读一次并进行自测，结果是自测效果明显更好。你有没有在节目里请过P2C Brown？没有。他是《Make It Stick》这本书的作者？没有，但我很喜欢这个书名。你应该请Peter来节目做客。他应该是《Monom Wisdom》的第30期嘉宾，而你会是第1030期。我从他那里学到的最好的总结就是，学习如何学习，就是通过反复回忆，而不是反复接触。对吧，这太棒了，简直完美。正是如此，这也是根据遗忘曲线进行的。一些人比如James Clear，他们在某种程度上是天才，我指的是，他们在传授内容时显然是经过深思熟虑和结构化的设计，神经科学支持他所说的一切，这正是他所说的。

And reflecting on what you were trying to do or learn or solve, even if you don't remember, even if you're still puzzled by it, is so vitally important to the anti-forgetting process. Okay. Now in terms of actually being able to focus, actually being able to do work, it's so clear that thoughts, and this is the beautiful statements and work of a woman in Jenny Groh, who's spelled G-R-O-H, at Duke University, who's a neuroscientist who's been saying sensory integration for a long time. You know, I've long thought about, and I think we now understand as a field, what sensations are. So sensations are the physical stimuli in the environment, photons of light, mechanical pressure, odor, volatile odorance in the environment that lead to, you know, psyites, touch, smell, et cetera. How that gets converted into chemical and electrical signals in the brain, we understand as a field.

反思你所尝试做的、学习的或解决的问题，即使你不记得了，即使这些问题仍让你困惑，对于防止遗忘的过程至关重要。好，现在说到能真正集中注意力、完成工作，杜克大学的神经科学家Jenny Groh（名字拼写为G-R-O-H）的理论非常明确。她长期以来一直在研究感觉整合。我们已经理解感觉是什么：感觉是环境中的物理刺激，例如光子的光、机械压力、环境中的气味等，这些刺激会引起视力、触觉、嗅觉等。我们现在作为一个研究领域，理解了这些刺激是如何在大脑中转换为化学和电信号的。

We understand sensation. We understand perception. Perception is which of those sensations you happen to be paying attention to. Okay. We understand emotions now more as a subset of something that we think of more broadly as states that are set by your autonomic nervous system. How alert you are, how not alert you are, and then emotions are kind of layered on top of that, right? Lisa Feldman-Barrard has beautiful descriptions of these and so on. There's some debate about what emotions really are, but we know what they are neurobiologically and psychologically. And behaviors, we know what they are, right? There's a behavior. And then there's the don't go behaviors, the suppression of behavior. And then there are memories, right? But for the longest time, it's been unclear. What are thoughts? Like what are they? Are they just like spontaneous guys are in up of memories? Or like what's going on there?

我们理解感觉，我们也理解知觉。知觉是指在众多感觉中，你所集中注意力的那部分。我们现在对情绪的理解更多的是将其看作一种由自主神经系统设定的状态的子集。比如，你有多警觉或者不警觉，情绪就是在这些基础状态上叠加形成的。Lisa Feldman-Barrett对此有很精彩的描述。关于情绪的真正定义尚有争议，但我们从神经生物学和心理学的角度知道情绪是什么。我们也了解行为是什么。行为包括主动的行为和抑制行为。此外，还有记忆。然而，长期以来，对"思维"究竟是什么并不清楚。到底思维是自发产生的记忆集合，还是其他什么呢？这个问题一直令人困惑。

And Jenny Groh, I think, has the absolute best description of these. And this is based on experimentation. If we seed some idea, so let's say I say to you, let's not talk about cats, because I'm a dog person, but I say, okay, okay, Chris, and this isn't a trick question, I promise, because it's always weird when people start doing this. I'm not Oz Perlman or something. I'm not gonna tell you your pin code. Think about a dog, okay. What kind of dog is it? Don't retrieve her. Go on retriever, okay. So as you think about the golden retriever, like what other things come to mind about the golden retriever? It's got a little necker chief on. Okay, red necker chief. Great, red necker chief. Like what else about golden retriever? Fluffy. Fluffy, Jose. So there's a tactile thing, okay. Anything else about golden retrievers?

詹妮·格罗（Jenny Groh），我认为，给这些事物的描述是最好的。这是基于实验而来的。如果我们植入一个想法，比如我跟你说，我们不要谈论猫，因为我喜欢狗。但我会说，好的，好的，克里斯，这不是一个考验问题，我保证，因为当人们这样开始谈话时总是很奇怪。我不是奥兹·珀尔曼（Oz Perlman）之类的人，我不会告诉你你的密码。想一想一只狗，好吗？你想到了什么品种的狗？不要说是猎犬。哦，你想到了黄金猎犬。于是，随着你想着黄金猎犬，关于它你还会想到什么呢？它有一块小围巾。好的，红色围巾。太好了，红色围巾。那么，黄金猎犬还有什么特点呢？毛茸茸的。对，毛茸茸的，José。所以这是一个触觉的感受。还有其他关于黄金猎犬的特点吗？

This is very specific to you. Bouncing up and down, rolling on its back, smells a little bit, but I like it. Great, okay. So there's a, I like it. You like to, okay. So Jenny grows and others data, point to the fact that thoughts basically start with some seed element, some noun, some pronoun, some thing, some event. And then what the brain does is essentially starts to call on more and more sensations and starts layering those in. More and more prior sensory events. It's red handkerchief, okay. It's fluffy, there's a tactile. And that thoughts really are the layering on of more and more sensory memories. And thoughts are really a layering of the senses in abstract thought space. Now this is not meant to, you know, make something from nothing, but it's so important that we understand this because you think, what is the ability to think?

这非常针对你。上下跳跃，翻来覆去，有点气味，但我喜欢。很好，好吧。所以，有一个，我喜欢它。你也喜欢，好吧。所以，珍妮的研究和其他人的数据表明，思维基本上是从某种种子元素开始的，比如某个名词、代词、事物或事件。然后，大脑其实开始调用越来越多的感知，并开始将这些感知层叠进去。越来越多的感官事件，比如红色手帕，好吧，这是毛茸茸的，有触感。思维实际上是越来越多感官记忆的叠加，而思维是在抽象思维空间中感官的叠加。现在，这并不是说要无中生有，但理解这一点是非常重要的，因为你会思考：思考的能力究竟是什么？

Well, the ability to think is constrained by the number of different senses I'm trying to place on a bunch of different things. And so that's how we navigate through environments, which is what Jenny grows main work is about how you find yourself in space. I can't look at everything in this garage. I have to focus on certain things, find the Phillips head screwdriver, go over there, and you're discarding all the other information.

好的，思考能力实际上受到我试图在不同事物上加诸不同理解时的限制。这就是我们如何在环境中导航的方式，也是Jenny主要研究的内容：如何在空间中定位自己。我不能看这个车库里的所有东西，我必须专注于某些特定的东西，比如找到十字螺丝刀，走到那里，而这个过程中你会忽略其他所有的信息。

Now when you think about sitting down to do work or to learn something, prepare a podcast, it is so important that you limit the number of sensory inputs coming in, not just during that event, but before because the sensory stimulus that kind of sets off this cascade of layering in more and more sensory memories and understanding is begun before you sit down to read your book. This is why you read a portion of it and then they're like, oh wait, I wasn't paying attention. Your brain is still working with the sensory inputs from before. It's not thinking about them consciously.

现在，当你准备坐下来处理工作或学习，或者准备一个播客时，重要的是要限制接收到的感官输入数量。而这不仅仅是在进行这些活动时需要注意的，还包括之前的准备阶段。因为感官刺激会引发一连串的多层感官记忆和理解，而这些在你坐下来看书之前就已经开始了。因此你会发现，有时候读了一段书后才意识到，自己没有专心。你的大脑其实还在处理之前接收到的感官输入，即便你并没有在意识中去思考它们。

So this is vitally important. If you go back and you look at the history of attention and thinking and I have, you can find these incredible pictures that they would give kids who had trouble, probably had ADHD or just kind of rambunctious boys in most cases, and they literally gave them helmets with two eye holes so they couldn't look at anything else like on the link to some sort of stuff. Here anyone else, right. Used to be, you know, kid with the hoodie on and the cap and you'd write, now what have we done?

这非常重要。如果你回顾一下注意力和思维的历史（而我已经做过），你会发现一些不可思议的做法。他们会给那些可能有注意力缺陷多动症（ADHD）或者只是活泼好动的孩子戴上头盔，头盔上只有两个眼洞，这样他们就不能被其他东西吸引注意力。在当时，这就像给小孩戴上连帽衫和帽子一样。现在，我们都做了些什么呢？

The challenge is that we've brought an infinite number of sensory experiences into the thing that you're looking at. Oh wow. So we've brought all the sensory inputs through the device that you're holding. So the narrowing of your perspective hasn't helped you to narrow the distractions? That's right, cognitive space is still infinite even though the spatial limitation of where you're placing your attention is very restricted. So the fact that you have so many competing thoughts has everything to do with that.

挑战在于，我们将无限多的感官体验融入到了你正在观看的事物中。哇哦。也就是说，我们通过你手中的设备引入了所有的感官输入。所以，你的视角缩小并没有帮助你减少干扰？没错，即便你的注意力空间很有限，认知空间仍然是无限的。因此，你有这么多相互竞争的想法正是由于这种情况。

And it also has everything to do with what you were doing in the 10 or 15 minutes before you sat down to try to work. Now in China they're doing some very interesting experiments of having kids stare literally at a focal point on the wall for a number of minutes before beginning their work. Sounds a little extreme, little military, but one thing that I've been doing before I prepared to do any writing, any podcasting, any work is I, I try and make myself as bored as possible.

这也与你在坐下工作前的10到15分钟内所做的事情密切相关。现在在中国，他们正在进行一些非常有趣的实验，让孩子们在开始工作前盯着墙上的一个焦点看几分钟。听起来有点极端，有点军事化，但我在准备写作、录播客或进行任何工作之前，都会尽量让自己变得非常无聊。

I try and remove as much sensory input as possible. I might think about my breathing because it's hard to not think about anything but I really have started to limit the amount of sensory information coming into my space. I have an entire floor of where I live now. I live in and have an odd structure now but the entire bottom floor is a no phone zone. Once or twice I've brought my phone down there but it's a no phone zone. I'm going down the stairs, there are no phones in there.

我尽量减少接收到的感官输入。我可能会专注于呼吸，因为不去想任何事情很难，但我真的开始限制进入我空间的感官信息。我现在住的地方整个楼层都是属于我的。我住的地方结构有些特别，但整个底层是不带手机的区域。我有一两次把手机带到那里，但原则上这是一个不带手机的区域。当我走下楼梯时，那里的确没有手机。

I'm trying to figure out how I can have no internet there. I have this little tent sauna that I use now with in Condustinac. I love this. I love this. Because I couldn't use my barrel sauna where I was at. I think it's sauna space makes these incredible. I like them because they get hot right away and it's got the red light. I go in there, it's in a, it's grounded and there's no Wi-Fi and there the phone goes dead the moment you go in there. You're in a mini fire day, okay?

我在想怎么才能在那没有互联网。我现在在Condustinac用一个小型帐篷桑拿，我真的很喜欢这个，因为我之前所在的地方无法使用我的桶式桑拿。我觉得Sauna Space做的这些设备非常棒。我喜欢它们的原因是加热很快，而且有红光。我进去后，它是接地的，没有Wi-Fi，手机一进去就失去信号。你可以把它想象成一个小型的无网火疗空间。

Yeah, and I don't like bringing the phone into the sauna too. You're in the same place that I went to or is this a new one now? No, so I actually converted a art gallery into a living space. I've always wanted to do this. So now I have my, no, it's not the same place I have my gym. I've got an upstairs loft where I live and then the downstairs is a workspace. I have an octopus now. I have a tank with an octopus in it. Although it's a bit shy.

是啊，我也不喜欢把手机带进桑拿房。你现在在那里是我去过的地方吗，还是一个新地方？不，我实际上把一个艺术画廊改造成了一个生活空间。我一直想这样做。所以现在我有我的，不，不是我有健身房的那个地方。我有一个楼上的阁楼居住，楼下是一个工作空间。我现在有一只章鱼，我有一个养章鱼的水箱。不过它有点害羞。

So I'm probably gonna be able to do that. You're becoming increasingly esoteric. Oh, anyway, and I have my disk is fish and my gym and my, doing all the illustrations for my books, I spend a lot of time drawing down in the basement. I mean, I've always wanted to do this at some point. I was like, yeah, you have to live in an art gallery at some point if you're able. And okay, so that's my unique kind of weird space.

所以我可能会做到。你变得越来越深奥了。哦，不管怎么说，我有我的磁盘是鱼，我的健身，做所有书的插图，我花了很多时间在地下室画画。我的意思是，我一直想在某个时候做到这一点。我就想，是啊，如果有机会，你得住在一个艺术画廊里。好的，这就是我独特而奇怪的空间。

But it doesn't matter if you're in an empty box. If you are not good at clearing the slate before you try and focus, you're gonna have a very hard time for understandable reasons. In fact, I'm amazed that anyone can think at all. I'm amazed that anyone can focus at all. I don't believe everyone has ADHD. I think we've just not understood what thoughts are built up from. And once you understand, you go, oh yeah, it makes perfect sense. It might be supposed to walk around with my eyes closed and not take in any sensory input. No, but am I supposed to take in an infinite number of novel items through this device?

但这并不重要，即使你身处一个空盒子里。如果你不善于在尝试专注前彻底清空头脑，你就会因可以理解的原因而感到非常困难。事实上，我惊讶于任何人能思考，我惊讶于任何人能专注。我不认为每个人都有注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）。我认为我们只是还没弄明白思想是如何形成的。一旦你理解了，你就会觉得，这完全说得通。我不认为我们应该闭上眼睛四处走动，不接收任何感官信息。但我是否应该通过这个设备接收无数的新信息呢？

In fact, Mike Easter, the author of the comfort crisis, told me something super scary when he came on the podcast. He said that the person who developed the people, excuse me, who developed the algorithms for social media, borrowed heavily from the casinos. And I didn't realize that some years ago, slot machines were like a small fraction of the total casino income, maybe like 10, 20%. Now it's 80%. And it was one guy who watches kid playing video games who realized that the kids will play video games for hours and hours and hours and what they were playing for was novelty.

事实上，《舒适危机》的作者迈克·伊斯特在参加我的播客时告诉了我一件非常可怕的事情。他说，开发社交媒体算法的人借鉴了赌场的设计思路。我之前不知道的是，几年前，老虎机在赌场收入中只占很小一部分，可能只有10%到20%。而现在，这个比例已经达到了80%。其中的原因与一个看着孩子玩电子游戏的人有关，他发现孩子们会不知疲倦地玩游戏很久很久，他们追求的是新鲜感。

And so they switched the slot machines and casinos on his suggestion to instead of just spooling numbers and fruit or whatever it was because they're now electronic, you can get a near infinite number of combinations of novel items. And people will play while losing for novelty and think they're winning. The brain is tricked into thinking that it's winning. And so at some level, like I love social media, teach on social media, I've partaken it as a consumer and a creator there. But I think we need to really scruff ourselves and go, okay, I need to read this book. I need to write this chapter. I need to do this drawing.

因此，他们根据他的建议修改了老虎机和赌博机，不再只是简单地滚动数字和水果图案。由于现在是电子化的，你可以获得几乎无限数量的新奇组合。人们在玩这些机器时，即使输钱也会因为新奇感而觉得自己在赢。大脑会被欺骗，以为自己赢了。在某种程度上，我喜欢社交媒体，并在上面教学，我也曾是消费者和创作者。但我觉得我们需要警醒自己，告诉自己：好吧，我需要去读这本书，我需要去写这一章，我需要去做这幅画。

And you'll notice once you drop into that trench, the brain has these attractor states. It's like a ball bearing on a flat surface. As you get more into a thought trench or activity trench, it's like that ball bearing drops into what's essentially a deep valley. And it's actually hard to leave. You'll notice you're walking out and unless you pick up your phone, you'll still be thinking about that. And this is how the brain works. The brain is not working in step functions. The brain, none of us are supposed to do the same thing all day long.

一旦你进入那个思维或活动的“沟渠”，你会注意到大脑有一些“吸引状态”。就像一个钢珠在平坦的表面上滚动。当你逐渐深入一个思维或活动的“沟渠”时，就好像那个钢珠滑到了一个很深的谷底。要摆脱这种状态其实很难。你会发现即使你走了出来，除非你拿起手机，否则你仍会继续想着那件事。这就是大脑的工作方式。大脑的运作并不是一步一步的，我们也不应该整天做同样的事情。

And none of us are supposed to be able to think and focus easily. You just have to ride that sort of layering on of thoughts going from board to sensory input to deeper and deeper. And then work for bouts of, you know, 90 minutes or a couple of hours and then give yourself a little bit of time, pause reflect. And it doesn't mean you can have a conversation, but people are like texting in between. It's unbelievable what we've done to hamstring ourselves against being able to think.

我们中没有人应该很容易地思考和集中注意力。你只需要顺应那种不断堆叠的思绪，从表面的感知输入逐渐深入。然后，你可以工作一段时间，比如90分钟或者几个小时，然后给自己一点时间来暂停和反思。这并不意味着你可以一边对话，一边忙于发短信。我们这种行为限制了自己思考的能力，真是难以置信。

The good news is as Goggins would say, nowadays it's very easy to be spectacularly good in pretty much any field. He does have to do what no one else is doing. Now he's an extreme case and I have immense admiration for David. I mean, he's just so David, you know, but if you want to be the best in your class at anything, or best in class at pretty much anything, it's to become so much easier now. You just have to not constantly be projecting things out to the world or paying attention to what other people are doing.

好消息是，就像Goggins所说的，如今在任何领域做到出色都变得非常容易。他确实需要做一些别人没做到的事情。当然，他是一个极端的例子，我对David非常敬佩。他就是很有个性，你知道的。不过，如果你想在某个领域成为佼佼者，现在真的容易多了。你只需要不总是把注意力放在向外界展示或关注他人做什么上。

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目前，您可以通过下面描述中的链接，获得首次订阅35%的折扣，并享受30天退款保证。这是前往livemomentus.com，斜线，modern wisdom的网站。现在的标准如此之低，真是遗憾。然而，对人们来说这也是一个令人兴奋的机会。我明白，这种在教室、国家乃至全世界蔓延的脆弱性带来了持续的干扰，让人无法集中注意力，或者在面临一点不适或韧性考验时感到无能为力，这并不是一件好事。但从自私的角度看，广泛存在的脆弱性其实是你的竞争优势。如果你是其中一员，你不可能在改变自己之前就改变世界。所以，第一步是看到这是一个机遇，我可以去把握它。

So you mentioned that you've touched on some of the bad habits that distract people. I've always been interested in this from a neuroscientific perspective. Is it truly possible to deprogram bad habits or once those neural pathways are down, is that locked in for life? Are you just creating deeper fissures somewhere else in order to replace those ones? How do you think about getting rid of bad habits, the process of overcoming those? Yeah, I think if we look at the data on neuroplasticity, it's much easier to reactivate a pathway that was laid down early in life, even if it's been suppressed. It was a beautiful data guy named Eric Nudson who was actually my next-door neighbor and my lab before he retired, Stanford showing that once learning takes place, those maps are forever there. You can unveil those maps again later. They kind of like never forget to write a bite kind of thing.

你提到了一些让人分心的坏习惯。我一直对这个问题的神经科学角度很感兴趣。真的有可能去除坏习惯吗？还是说一旦神经通路建立起来，就一辈子固定不变？是否只是在其它地方创造更深的裂缝来替代原有的习惯呢？你认为摆脱坏习惯的过程是怎样的？是的，如果我们看关于神经可塑性的数据，会发现重新激活早期形成的神经通路要容易得多，即使这些通路后来被抑制过。一位名叫埃里克·纳德森的数据专家做过一些很精彩的研究，他曾是我的邻居，也是斯坦福大学的教授，在他退休前的实验室里工作。他的研究表明，一旦学习完成，这些"地图"就会永远存在。之后你可以再次揭示这些"地图"，它们就像骑自行车一样，是不会忘记的。

But when you're talking about bad habits, and then you get into sort of contingencies, like rewards and punishments, these days because of my own interests and trajectory, I think a lot about the seven deadly sins and the virtues. I mean, if you look at any of the sins, they're all very hypothalamic in nature. They're the extremes of hypothalamic function. In fact, you could probably map the seven deadly sins onto the hypothalamus and say, that nucleus, the venture-medial hypothalamus, those neurons are responsible for rage, for unbridled rage. Those neurons are responsible for unbridled sexual activity. I'm not talking about merged with violence, I'm just like independent of that. Those are our consummatory behaviors. So eating, hyperphagia, these are anorexia.

但当你谈论坏习惯，并涉及到一些类似奖励和惩罚的情况时，鉴于我最近的兴趣和方向，我常常想到七宗罪和美德。如果你观察这些罪恶，会发现它们本质上都与下丘脑有关，它们是下丘脑功能的极端表现。实际上，你甚至可以将七宗罪与下丘脑进行对应，比如说，腹内侧下丘脑的某些神经元负责愤怒，负责失控的愤怒。还有的神经元则负责失控的性行为。我并不是说与暴力结合，而是指单独存在的情况。这些就是我们的完成性行为，比如说进食、食欲亢进或厌食。

So I mean, all of the... What about, I have a question on that because envy is the only one of the seven deadly sins that doesn't feel good. Yeah, so you write, and I hadn't thought about that, but envy is probably not easily mapped to a hypothalamic nucleus. In that interesting insight, envy is the only one of the seven deadly sins that isn't something that can be enjoyable at low or high dose. Yeah, our good friend Paul Conti talks often about how much of the ills of the world are based on people's envy. When people don't have... When they have an uncomfortable feeling, most people will turn that into self-destruction or destruction of others. And people who are successful in life transmute those uncomfortable feelings into self-support and creating things and supporting others. Same feelings, divergent paths.

所以，我的意思是，所有的……关于这点我有个问题，因为嫉妒是七宗罪中唯一一种让人感觉不好的罪恶。是的，如你所说，我之前没有想过这一点，但嫉妒可能真的很难直接与下丘脑的某个核比较挂钩。有趣的是，嫉妒是七宗罪中唯一一种在小剂量或大剂量时都无法让人感到愉悦的罪恶。我们的好朋友保罗·康提常常提到，世界上许多问题都源于人们的嫉妒。当人们有不舒适的感觉时，大多数人会将其转化为自我毁灭或对他人的破坏。而那些在生活中取得成功的人，会把这些不舒适的感觉转化为自我支持、创造事物和支持他人。相同的感觉，不同的路径。

And envy, Paul said many times, is the enemy of all personal development, right? You see something, you know. I always noticed, you know, coming up in science. If something bad happens to somebody, most of the time, unless we really dislike them, but even then, you can't get on that sucks, you know, like, really feel bad. But if something good happens for somebody, you know immediately how you feel about that person. Are you happy for them? Or is there that feeling of like, oh, yeah, exactly. You know immediately how you feel. Right, Tate, that's such a good litmus test. Yeah, how do you feel when this other person wins? When somebody else loses, I guess even with that, it's an interesting one. Like, is there a sort of weird sense of satisfaction or are you like, fuck, like, which that person was okay, it would never be, okay. Bad habits, I would never be.

保罗多次提到，嫉妒是所有个人发展的敌人，对吗？你看到一些事情，就明白了。我总是注意到，在科学领域成长的过程中。如果某人遭遇不幸，大多数时候，除非我们非常不喜欢他们，否则我们都会感到遗憾，真的觉得很糟糕。但是如果某人获得了好事，你会立刻知道自己对那个人的感受。你是为他们感到高兴，还是有一种"啊，正是这样"的感觉。你立刻知道自己的真实感受。对，Tate，这真是一个很好的试金石。你在其他人获胜时的感受如何？当某人失败时，即便是这种情况，也挺有趣的。是有一种奇怪的满足感，还是你希望那个人没事？不好的习惯，我绝不会。

Yeah, so with bad habits, I mean, so I think about the, you know, the sins and bad habits mapping to hypothermic nuclei, because I'm me, and that's my nerdy perspective. But then you also think about the virtues, right? And overcoming bad habits or the virtues, they, I mean, I believe that most people are inherently good. I do. It may be true, young may be right, that we have all things inside of us, but I think most people are inherently good. I think there are some set of people that given the opportunity to do things and not get caught, they would do really bad things. But I don't think that's most people. Okay. Or most dogs, by example, cats, I'm still on the fence about. Cats can fuck. Sorry, cat people. I know it's only the nice ones, but, but in all seriousness, I think that the bad habits thing involves breaking bad habits involves a lot of top down control.

是的，说到坏习惯，我会想到罪恶和坏习惯与下丘脑核的联系，因为我就是我，这是我书呆子的视角。但同时你也会想到美德，对吧？克服坏习惯或者说美德，我相信大多数人本性是善良的。我确实这样认为。也许荣格是对的，我们内心有各种各样的东西，但我觉得大多数人本性是善良的。我认为有一部分人如果有机会做一些不会被抓到的事情，他们可能会做一些非常糟糕的事情。但我不认为大多数人是这样的。同样地，大多数的狗也是好的，至于猫，我还在观望。猫有时可能比较难以捉摸。对不起，猫的爱好者们，我知道只有一些是友善的，但说真的，我认为克服坏习惯涉及到很多自上而下的控制。

Prefrontal cortex suppressing the activity of these hypotherlemic and other sub-cortical marionettes. And how do we know this? Well, if you want to summarize how the prefrontal cortex you'd say it's the shhh structure in the brain. It's that, no, don't reach for that cookie. It's that, no, don't say that thing. It's the don't do the thing that your hypothalamus, don't do the thing, it's the don't do the thing that your hypothalamus and other structures are creating some internal activation of the autonomic nervous system that kind of vibration of you want to do it. It smells so good, it tastes so good, you just want to, I don't know why I did it, this kind of thing. So that top down control can be learned and the beautiful thing, and this answers your question more directly, the beautiful thing is that at some point that top down control is not required anymore. Unless you do the thing you're not supposed to do and then it requires top down control again.

前额皮质能够抑制下丘脑和其他次皮质结构的活动。那么我们是怎么知道这一点的呢？要总结前额皮质的功能，可以简单地说它是大脑中的“安静”结构。它会在你想伸手去拿饼干时提醒你：不，不要去拿。或者在你想说某些话时提醒你：不，不要说。它让你停止那些下丘脑和其他结构引发的自主神经系统活动，不去做那些你本能想做的事情，比如“闻起来好香、尝起来好美味，你就是想吃，却不知道为什么要这么做”。这种自上而下的控制是可以学习的。而更妙的是，随着时间的推移，这种自上而下的控制有可能不再需要。除非你做了不该做的事，那时就需要再次进行自上而下的控制。

Now the reason I'm so interested these days, one of the reasons I'm so interested in spirituality and notions of God, et cetera, is that, the virtues also, I believe, can start to arrive through things that are outside of us. Now I realize that sounds very unscientific, but if you look at the science around religious belief or belief in higher power, or the notion that humans don't have all the answers, not even the collective consciousness, what you find is that for everything from recovery from addiction to recovery from immense immense loss, I mean, the kinds of losses that go way beyond a death of a family member, although that's intense. Death of all ones children, for instance, horrible things that people have been put through. Almost without fail, moving through that with any kind of sense of self-preservation and not engaging in just self-destruction, which is what most people do, almost always involves some notion of top down control from outside, being encouraged or even instructed to do the right thing.

最近我对精神信仰和上帝的概念特别感兴趣。其中一个原因是，我相信美德也可以来自于我们自身之外的事物。我知道这听起来好像不太科学，但如果你看看关于宗教信仰或者更高力量信仰的科学研究，或者人类并没有所有答案的这种观点，你会发现，从戒除毒瘾到从巨大的失去中恢复，比如远超家人去世的那种失去，像是所有孩子都去世这样极其悲惨的情况，几乎总是需要某种来自外部的控制，让人们能获得自我保留的意识，而不是陷入自我毁灭。能够带领我们走出这些困境的，往往是某种外部力量，鼓励甚至指导我们去做正确的事情。

Feeling as if something is coming through oneself. Now we often hear about this in the creative process, people like Rick Rubin and a big twilight art fan, the choreographer, we'll talk about, you know, most creatives we'll talk about, sort of downloading things from outside of them, it kind of moves through them as opposed to arising purely within them, because of all that sensory experience. But they can get into kind of these higher realms of spirituality, but when we're talking about breaking bad habits, overcoming immensely difficult scenarios that normally withdraw people into complete self-destruction or just giving up, which is a bad habit in its own right. It's as if the top down control is so immense, like the going against oneself that's required, is so immense that when people hand that over to God, whether or not it's Christ or whether or not, some other form of God that they are attached to, you know, it seems as if they get some relief from the process.

感觉好像有什么东西通过自己。如今，我们经常在创作过程中听到关于这种感受的描述，比如像瑞克·鲁宾这样的艺术家，或是热衷于艺术的编舞家，他们常常谈论到将外界的东西“下载”到自己体内。这种感觉更像是某种外来的力量在驱动，而不是完全源于自身的，因为所有的感官体验都在起作用。这种感觉可以进入到更高层次的精神领域。而当我们谈论打破坏习惯或者克服极其困难的情境时，这些情境通常会让人完全自我毁灭或直接放弃，而这本身就是一种坏习惯。这时，好像自上而下的控制力非常强大，反抗自我的过程也非常困难，以至于当人们把这个过程交给上帝时，无论是基督还是他们信仰的其他神灵，他们都会感到某种程度的解脱。

And yet it's very effective. And you can't deny this, right, just as a phenomenon. I mean, let's take off our hats of scientists and people kind of parse things. Like, how could it be that the thing that's hardest for humans to do for themselves becomes far easier when they stop trying to do it for themselves? It's a wild mind bend that neuroscience doesn't really understand, but, you know, what we're really talking about, let's say this were alcohol, and I'm not an alcoholic, fortunately, but let's say I had immense difficulty in refraining from alcohol, and this would be the parsice environment and where this would, where alcohol would be attractive. The amount of top down control that's required is immense for somebody who's recently sober. They have to, you know, hopefully they're in 12 step, they have to call their sponsor, they can be in a jarring anxiety.

这真的很有效，对吧，你无法否认这一现象。我们暂时不以科学家的身份去分析这个问题，思考一下，为什么对于我们人类来说，最难做到的事情在我们停止自己尝试的时候反而变得更容易了呢？这是一种令人难以理解的现象，连神经科学也无法完全解释。就像饮酒这个例子，假设我不是酗酒者，很幸运，但如果我在戒酒方面遇到了极大的困难，那在充满诱惑的环境中，对酒精的吸引力会很强。对于一个刚戒酒的人来说，需要巨大的意志力去控制，他们可能需要参加十二步戒酒计划，打电话给他们的导师，承受巨大的焦虑。

That anxiety eventually subsides. I mean, alcohol, it's eventually can hang out in bars and not have a drink, but there's a long period of time where they can, and many never will be able to do that. But the notion of a higher power is central to almost every alcoholic, at least who goes through AA, getting sober. It's a, it's almost a prerequisite, and in some sense it is a prerequisite, and it's so brilliant that it is because it takes away the need for constant top down control. You give that over to something else, this notion of a higher power. For some people, that's God, for some people Christ, for some people, it's, you know, just general higher power because 12 step is very agnostic because of what people consider higher power.

那种焦虑最终会消退。我的意思是，酒精成瘾者最终可以去酒吧不用喝酒，但在这之前有很长一段时间他们无法做到，其中很多人可能永远也做不到。但在AA戒酒过程中，高于自我的力量的概念对几乎每个酒精成瘾者来说都是核心。某种程度上，它几乎是必不可少的。这一点非常聪明，因为它消除了对持续自我控制的需要。你把这种控制交给所谓的更高力量。对一些人来说，这个更高力量是上帝，或者是基督；对另一些人来说，可能只是一个普遍的更高力量，因为12步康复计划对更高力量的定义非常宽松和包容。

But I think it is not a coincidence that the Bible writes in these kinds of things about sins and virtues and the need, not just good works, but avoiding sin and acknowledges in some sense that it's, in some cases, near impossible for people to do on their own. And yes, community can help, and yes, reward processes can help, and yes, punishment can help. These all work, we know this, you can see it in animal learning studies where humans are different, is that they can, as far as we know, humans are unique in their ability to give this top down restriction process over to some other entity, and it makes it easier, not harder, and it makes it more concrete somehow, not more abstract.

我认为，《圣经》中关于罪恶和美德的内容，以及不仅要行善，还要避免罪恶，这些并不是巧合。它在某种意义上承认，有些事情仅凭个人努力几乎不可能做到。但确实，社区的支持可以起到帮助作用，奖惩机制也有助于行为的导向。众所周知，这些方法都是有效的，从动物学习研究中可以看到这些效果。而人类的特别之处在于，他们能够独特地将这种自上而下的约束交给其他实体，这种方式使得过程变得更简单、更具体。

The only abstract piece of it is that, you know, you can't shake this entity's hand, at least not in the standard sense. What do you think's going on now? I, you know, as usual, you always ask the question, which is why I'm stomped, right? I mean, it's, I mean, I'm trying to parse what could be going on, but it always lands me back in neural circuits and neural structures. I mean, I'm excited by some of the data that are starting to look at how consciousness might involve things from outside the brain, and, you know, maybe multiple brains, and all I know is that, having spent nearly three decades thinking about and researching and talking about neuroscience, that, you know, we know a great deal about how sensations, perceptions, thoughts, memories, you know, emotions and behaviors are constructed, right?

这段话的大意是：唯一抽象的地方在于，你知道，你无法以通常的方式与这个实体握手。那么你觉得现在正在发生什么呢？我一如既往地被你的问题难住了，我是说，我尝试理解可能发生了什么，但总是回到神经回路和神经结构上。我对一些新数据感到兴奋，这些数据开始研究意识可能涉及大脑以外的事物，也许甚至涉及多个大脑。经过近三十年对神经科学的思考、研究和讨论，我所知道的是，我们对此领域了解得非常多，比如感觉、知觉、思维、记忆、情感和行为是如何构建的。

What we do, and yet we don't know how this piece comes about, but this piece has been central to the human, historical perspective and human experience, and I don't think we're at any longer in a place where we can even talk about human evolution without this, right? I think humans evolved in the context of this, and that's why I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Much more a part of our history than the anterior mid-singular cortex is. Yes, in fact, no one needed to know that the anterior mid-singular cortex existed to know that there's a sync called tenacity and willpower. I think that the fun twist is that it's a highly plastic structure that we can engage and grow, and that reinforces the sets of behaviors that are involved, and I think adapt it for the right.

我们所做的事情，即使我们不知道这件事是如何产生的，但它在人的历史视角和人类经验中一直是核心。我认为我们已经不再处于可以谈论人类进化而不提到这件事的阶段。人类的进化是在这种背景下发生的，这就是为什么我认为它们并不是相互排斥的。它比前中带皮层更是我们历史的一部分。实际上，没有人需要知道前中带皮层的存在才能明白意志力和坚持不懈这样的概念。有趣的是，这是一个高度可塑的结构，我们可以利用和发展它，以加强相关的行为模式，并且我认为可以适应正确的方向。

But I absolutely think there's something real there, and I say that completely as a scientist, right? I'm used to immunostaining for proteins and running westerns and recording from neurons, and looking at neural circuits using any number of labeling techniques, I'm a man of science. But there's just no doubt in my mind that this process of giving over to the understanding there's something much greater than us, and that we are not in total control, at least not in total control. That feels very comforting to me because of the way it's, I've seen it help so many people. And I won't be shy about it, it's helped me tremendously.

我完全相信这其中有某种真实的存在，我是以科学家的身份这样说的。我习惯于进行蛋白质的免疫染色、运行蛋白质印迹实验、记录神经元活动，并使用各种标记技术研究神经回路，我是一个科学领域的人。但我确信，我们承认存在某种比我们自身更伟大的东西，这个过程是我们无法完全掌控的。至少我们不是完全掌控。这种认识让我感到非常安慰，因为我看到它帮助了很多人。我也不掩饰地说，它对我也有极大的帮助。

I mean, I'm in a very serious prayer practice daily now. Every night before I go to sleep, without fail, I'm going on a couple of years now where I've not missed a single night. I'll get out of bed if I fall asleep and do that. It's like a, and then also just prayer as a thing, and let's say it's just purely neurobiological. Let's say there's nothing outside of us that in the real sense. I don't believe that, but let's just assume for a moment. Well, then my neurobiology seems to be responding to all this very, very well. And I don't think I'm alone with that. In fact, I think there are too many burdens in life for anyone to be able to navigate life extremely well without these notions of higher power.

我的意思是，我现在每天进行非常认真的祈祷练习。每天晚上睡觉前，我都会坚持祈祷，已经持续了几年，没有一天落下。如果我不小心睡着了，我也会起床完成祈祷。这种祈祷就像是一个习惯。即便我们假设祈祷完全只是神经生物学上的作用，假设外界没有什么真实存在的力量。我不相信这个假设，但让我们暂时这样想。那么，我的神经系统似乎对这一切反应非常好。我认为我不是唯一有这种感觉的人。实际上，生活中有太多负担，任何人如果没有关于更高力量的信念，可能都无法很好地驾驭生活。

I don't think people can do it. And you could show me the most successful, wealthiest people in the world, and I would say, yeah, but they are highly deficient in this area, not because I'm judging them, right? We are all deficient in some area. But it must be, it has to be, because there's this huge gap in the knowledge set. I've never thought, I've never thought of that paradox, the fact that for a lot of people, billions of people, relinquishing control, the exact opposite of what it is, that for most of the habits, okay, we're going to suppress the anterior mid-single cortex. We're going to use our cognition to limit our distraction. We're going to narrow our focus all the rest of it. It's intention, it's lean in, it's agency, it's taking control.

我不认为人们能做到这点。即使你给我看世界上最成功、最富有的人，我也会说，是的，但他们在这个领域存在很大的不足。不过我不是在评判他们，我们每个人在某些方面都有不足。这一定是这样的，这是因为在知识层面上存在巨大的差距。我从来没有想过这个悖论，事实上，对于很多人来说，成千上万的人，放弃控制，这恰恰是相反的。对于大多数习惯，我们试图抑制前扣带回皮层的活动，利用我们的认知来限制分心，聚焦于某件事情。我们需要的是意图、投入、自主和掌控。

And then there's this other bit, that literally billions of people. And up until 100 years ago, almost everybody did assume was the seat of where the motivations and their discipline, and for a while with the bicameral mind, maybe even the voice inside the head came from. That was the thing that was real. That was the source of this. We evolved in that context. The brain evolved in the right. This was convergent evolution from a 50 million fucking different corners of the universe. Absolutely.

然后，还有另一个方面，那就是有数十亿人。在100年前，几乎所有人都认为这里是动机和自律的源泉。而且在一段时间内，人们甚至认为内心的声音可能源自于这种“双音心态”。这被认为是真实的东西，是一切的源头。我们在这种背景下进化，大脑在正确的方向上进化。这是从宇宙中5000万个不同角落产生的趋同进化。确实如此。

And it's my, I love teaching science, I love learning and teaching science. I hope that's obvious to people. I, but it's my one wish for people that at some point in their life, they at least explore the possibility and get morning sunlight. But the, but you know, open to faith and get morning sunlight. I just hit 50 recently. And, and I will say, if I look back on my life, I sure I wish I had done certain things differently. I mean, who doesn't? Right? This notion of like no regrets.

我非常热爱教授科学，喜爱学习和教授科学，希望人们能看出我的这一点。我唯一的愿望是，希望大家在某个时刻，至少尝试一下将信仰放开，去接触一下晨光。我最近刚满50岁，回顾我的生活，当然会希望有些事情做得不同一些，谁不是这样呢？所谓“无悔人生”的观念，其实是很难做到的。

Yeah, I wish I had made certain decisions, not others. But by and large, I'm very, very happy with the decisions I made. By and large. And I was happy to discover resistance training and running and neuroscience and, you know, cuddle fish and ferrets. I had a pet ferret and I don't recommend bulldogs. And I have the amazing relationship to family and friends. And I'm very blessed in my personal life. And my romantic life is feeling awesome these days. And it's just like it's overwhelmingly positive despite a lot of strain and hardship.

是啊，我确实希望我曾经做出过一些不同的决定，但总的来说，我对自己所做的决定感到非常满意。总的来说是这样的。我很高兴自己发现了力量训练、跑步、神经科学，还有，比如说，乌贼和雪貂。我养过一只雪貂，不过我不推荐养斗牛犬。我与家人和朋友的关系非常美好，我在个人生活中也感到非常幸运。最近，我的感情生活也很棒。尽管经历了很多压力和困难，但总体来说，一切都非常积极。

But the one thing that I wish that I had done earlier was to stop resisting the voice in my head that said, you know, I think there's a God and I'm going to pray. I kept pushing that away. I was like incompatible with my notion of what it meant to be a scientist. It was just incompatible with things. I just kept pushing down and yet the same time wishing for it. And the reason I'm my 50th birthday, I had to give an uncomfortable toast because believe it or not, I'm somewhat introverted, especially in large groups.

但有一件事我希望自己能早点做到，那就是停止抗拒心里的那个声音：我觉得世上有上帝，我想要祈祷。我一直在排斥这个念头，因为我觉得这跟我作为一个科学家的理念不相符，简直格格不入。但我一直在压抑这种想法，同时心里又隐隐渴望着这样做。到了我50岁生日时，我不得不做一个不太情愿的祝酒辞，因为不管你信不信，我其实有点内向，尤其在大群人面前。

I'm happy to talk science and talk like this with you. But, and I said it then and I'll say it again now. Like, I'm 50 and for the first time in my life, my entire life, I've experienced sustained time of real, deep peace. Like just peace. Like just like everything's okay. Everything is as it should be. Not just some little mantra that you say when you're on the big circus. Like, and why? I think it's because I stopped fighting so hard to try and control everything inside me.

我很高兴能够和你聊科学，聊类似的话题。而且，我之前说过，现在再重申一次。我今年50岁，这是我人生中第一次真正体验到持续的、深刻的平静。就是那种真正的平静，感觉一切都很好，一切都如它该有的那样。这不仅仅是在纷繁世界中重复的小咒语。而这是为什么呢？我想这可能是因为我不再那么努力地去控制我内心的一切了。

And in my life, and as a consequence, everything has become much easier. It's still challenging, but much, much easier. And it's 100% because of giving over to notion of higher power. I'm very direct about God higher power for me, right? Reading the Bible, this kind of thing, prayer. I mean, these are practices. This isn't just, I believe in God. These are practices. That is a faith-based practices. And it's become a source of immense intellectual stimulation for me and also just relaxation.

在我的生活中，结果一切变得更轻松了。虽然仍然有挑战，但确实轻松了许多。而这一切都完全是因为我相信一种更高的力量。我非常直接地谈论我信仰中的上帝，对我而言这就是一种高于一切的力量。阅读《圣经》、进行祷告，这些都是实践。这不仅仅是"我信仰上帝"，而是一种基于信仰的实践。它不仅是我巨大的智力刺激来源，也让我感到放松。

And it's really, it's my wish for anyone that's struggling or doing well because I'm certain that it holds so much power. And again, even if it turns out, and I'll never know, but even if it turns out that it's all filtered through standard neurobiological mechanisms, you know? Okay, I'm good with that. But in the meantime, like I'm gonna keep praying, like, and you can look at examples all around and all through history where people have said similar things in circumstances far more challenging than mine.

无论你是正在挣扎还是过得不错，我都希望你能尝试，因为我相信这其中蕴含着巨大的力量。即使最终发现，这一切都只是通过标准的神经生物机制在起作用，我也可以接受。在此期间，我会继续祈祷。看看周围以及历史上有很多例子，人们在比我面临更具挑战的情况下也说过类似的话。

And they'll always point to the same thing. I mean, people are pretty, can be pretty irrational, but at the same time, humans are also pretty miraculous in what they're able to build and develop. And this whole thing of, you know, God and religion has not been discarded. If anything, it's growing, right? I mean, you know the data on that better than I. So anyway, I don't have a whole lot more to say about that.

他们总是会指向同一个东西。我的意思是，人们有时候相当不理性，但同时，人类在他们能够建设和开发的东西上也非常了不起。而关于上帝和宗教，这个议题并没有被抛弃。实际上，如果有变化的话，它是在增长，是吧？我想，你比我更了解这方面的数据。所以，总之，我对这个话题没有更多要说的了。

You said something to me over three years ago now. You said, it's all internal. Can we revisit that? Yeah, I guess now I would say it's all internal except for the stuff that's coming from outside the human awareness. Yeah, but it's all internal in the sense that, I'm good on you for remembering that. It's all internal in the sense that, you know, I think that the big mistake that I made for a number of years was trying to find the thing that comes from outside that's gonna change things. And you know, Lord knows I love caffeine and of doing certain activities and learning.

三年前你对我说过一句话，你说，一切都在内心。我们能再探讨一下这个话题吗？是的，我想现在我会说，除了那些来自人类意识之外的事物，一切都在内心。不过，从某种意义上来说，一切都在内心，你能记住这句话真不错。因为我一直以来犯的最大错误就是试图寻找来自外部可以改变事物的东西。不过你知道，我很喜欢咖啡因，也很享受做某些活动和学习。

But at some point, you realize that the ability to, withhold, like reflexes that you don't wanna have. Like, you know, getting your temper sparked or something. You know, people say, no one can make you feel anything. And I say, that's crazy. People can make you feel things all the time. You know, the ability to not speak from your first thought but your second or your third. You know, you hear these kind of cliches, right? But all that ability comes from inside. It's from doing internal work. And it's kind of amazing how much we can accomplish.

但在某个时刻，你会意识到，有能力去抑制一些你不想要的反应，比如容易发脾气之类的反应。人们常说，没有人能让你感到任何情绪。但我认为这很荒谬，人们总是会让你产生各种情绪。你知道，有能力不从第一反应说话，而是从第二、第三反应说话。你会听到这些陈词滥调，但所有这些能力都来自内心。这是通过自我反思和内在修行获得的。我们能达成的成就有时候真是让人惊叹。

And I'm certainly not the first to say this. How much we can accomplish by just stopping and listening and going, wow, like my brain's crazy. It's like all these thoughts, all this stuff. Oh, too much input coming into this. Like, I've got to shut down this thought path. Also realizing that, you know, because these thoughts layer on themselves, our sensory memories layer on top and we feed our thoughts. I mean, Jenny grows description of how thinking works. Things you think that, yeah, like if you're ruminating on something that really bothers you, you probably do wanna distract yourself unless you're really gonna work on that thing.

当然，我并不是第一个这样说的人。我们可以通过停下来聆听，从而完成很多事情，然后感叹：“哇，我的大脑真是太疯狂了。”这里有这么多的想法和信息涌入，我需要停止这种思维路径。另外，也要意识到，由于这些想法是在相互叠加的，我们的感官记忆也在其上层层叠加，使得我们不断地为思维提供“养分”。就像珍妮描述的思维运作方式一样，如果你一直在想着一些让自己烦恼的事情，除非你真的想要解决这个问题，否则你可能需要转移注意力。

That you really can feed thoughts like embers and a fire. And it's important to not do that if it's not adaptive. A quick aside, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus and your performance, but most people have no idea where there's our or what to do if something's off, which is why I partnered with function because I wanted a smarter, more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, there are lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers.

你的思想就像余烬一样，可以被持续添加燃料。但如果这些想法对你没有帮助，就要注意避免这么做。顺便提一下，如果你最近感到有些无精打采，可能是因为你的睾酮水平出现了问题。睾酮在你的精力、注意力和表现中起着重要作用，但大多数人对自己的水平如何或出现问题该怎么办并不了解。这就是我为何与Function合作的原因，因为我想要一种更智能、更全面的方式来了解我身体内发生的情况。每年两次，他们会进行实验室测试，监测超过100种生物指标。

And their team of expert physicians analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. Seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. And unfortunately, getting a blood work drawn and analyzed like this usually costs thousands, but with function, it's just $499 and you can get an additional $100 off, bring it down to $399. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save 100 bucks by going to the link in the description below, or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom.

他们的专家医生团队会分析数据，并为你提供改善健康和延长寿命的可行建议。通过查看一年中你的睾酮水平和其他大量生物标志物的变化图，并结合改进建议，你可以明确改善生活的路径。不幸的是，通常要进行这样的血液检测和分析需要花费数千美元，但通过Function服务，只需要499美元，而且你还能额外节省100美元，最终只需花399美元。你可以在下方描述中的链接或访问functionhealth.com/modernwisdom获取与我相同的血液检测套餐，并省下100美元。网址是functionhealth.com/modernwisdom。

Well also, as you said, when we first spoke, if you finish a marathon in first place, nobody is coming along and dripping dopamine into the back of your brain. That's right. It's all internal. This is self-generated stuff. The satisfaction that you get for finishing a hard workout, the love that you feel from being with the people that you care about, the peace that you have for lying in a hammock in a sunny spring afternoon or whatever, at no point are you being sort of flicked different neurochemicals and sensations. This is a part of your system.

当然，就像你说的，当我们第一次谈到这个问题时，如果你在马拉松比赛中获得第一名，没有人会给你的大脑注入多巴胺。没错，那些感觉都是内心产生的。这是自我产生的东西。完成一次艰难训练后的满足感，与关心的人在一起时的爱意，在阳光明媚的春日下午躺在吊床上时的宁静感，这些快乐都不是来自外部化学物质和感觉的刺激。这些都是你自身系统的一部分。

Yeah. If you hit the system hard, the thing I absolutely suggest people never do is something like methamphetamines, is going to what the thousand-fold increase in dopamine within moments? Is that what that is? As compared to, or even more, as compared to cocaine, which I think is like 200 X, or maybe a doubling, I forget the exact numbers, but there's this chart that Anolemki will often put up and methamphetamine. It's going to, you're basically going to dump as much dopamine as you ever could in that moment. Then the trough is obviously proportional to that.

好的。如果你猛烈地刺激系统，我绝对建议人们永远不要尝试的东西之一就是冰毒。因为冰毒可以在瞬间使多巴胺增加一千倍，对比之下，甚至比可卡因更强。而可卡因好像是增加200倍，或者可能是翻倍，我记不清确切的数字，但是Anolemki经常会展示一个图表，上面显示了冰毒的影响。基本上，你会在那一刻释放出最多的多巴胺。然后，随之而来的低谷显然也是与此成正比的。

It's kind of fun too to think about how, because of conversations for me and you and others and Matt Walker, the world kind of understands dopamine now. They understand the nuance of every little bit of every one of the four different pathways and there's probably five, et cetera. No, but that's okay. Like do people understand everything about cortisol? No, but I think the world is now armed with a lot better knowledge of their own physiology and psychology and how those merge.

因为我和你，还有其他人，例如马特·沃克之间的对话，世界现在对多巴胺有了一定的理解，这其实挺有趣的。大家知道每一种四种不同路径的细微差别，也可能有五种等等。这很好，虽然并不是每个人都完全了解皮质醇，但我认为现在世界对自身生理和心理的知识更加丰富，并了解这些如何结合在一起。

I also think that we're starting to understand, actually, on the way over here, my producer and close friend Rob was talking about this, that everything now is gambling. Social media is a form of essentially gambling for dopamine. You know, likes and follows. Markets, you know, I mean, my team, their team, the politics, I mean, a good friend has said, you know, that all addiction is gambling. You know, all addictions maybe are gambling in different forms. I would say it all boils down to the same neural circuits of anticipation and... Reward anticipation.

我也觉得我们开始明白这一点，实际上，在我过来的路上，我的制作人和密友罗布谈到了这个问题：现在一切都像是在赌博。社交媒体本质上就是为了获取多巴胺进行赌博，比如点赞和关注。市场也是如此，比如我的团队、他们的团队，甚至政治领域。一位好朋友曾说，所有的成瘾行为都是某种形式的赌博。所有的成瘾可能都是不同形式的赌博。我认为，这一切都归结于相同的大脑神经回路，即对奖励的期待和... 奖励期待。

And the scariest thing was I have a good friend, Ryan Swav, who works with addicts and he's a trauma therapist as well, incredibly talented guy. And he said that, you know, the scary thing is he's known many gambling addicts to get addicted to the shame from losing. Oh. And then we said that, the more they're chasing the wins anymore, you're chasing the losses and the way that you feel about yourself after you've lost.

最可怕的是，我有一个好朋友，叫瑞安·斯瓦夫，他与成瘾者合作，同时也是一位非常有才华的创伤治疗师。他说，可怕的是，他认识很多赌博成瘾者，他们反而会对输掉后的羞耻感上瘾。这样一来，他们就不再只是追求赢，而是被失败和输掉后的那种自我感觉所驱使。

Yeah, it's almost like the wins were not big enough and so they're just chasing the self-shame and the hatred and the, it's really sad, get gambling addicts struggled big time. Coffee's illogicated a huge new video about gambling and sort of how endemic it is. And there's banking apps that allow you to gamble inside of the app. Now, and he's done... I learned a lot about gambling from watching a bunch of the videos he's done in the past.

是的，这感觉就像是赢的钱不够多，所以他们一直在追逐自责和仇恨，这真的很悲哀，赌瘾者遇到了很大的困难。Coffee 制作了一个关于赌博的大视频，讲述赌博是多么普遍。而且现在还有一些银行应用程序，允许你在应用内部进行赌博。我从观看他过去制作的视频中学到了很多关于赌博的知识。

And it really is kind of wild to me that it's legal. And the only way that I can say, I'm sure like you, we've been offered, like an unlimited number of gambling sports betting partnerships and stuff like that. I like gambling actually. I love it. I know a bit, but I don't have a problem with it. Which is why, though, which is exactly why it's for, yeah, yeah.

这件事情真的让我感到不可思议的是，它居然是合法的。我可以说，我相信你也一样，我们被提供过很多赌博和体育博彩方面的合作机会。我其实很喜欢赌博，我很爱它。我知道一些相关的事，但我没有赌博问题。正因为这样，这就是为什么，嗯，嗯……

We should go Vegas. But it's kind of, it's kind of mad to me that this is legal and you know, fucking don't hate the player, you know, the game is much bigger than any individual person that's contributing to it. Like fat play, but it is really fucking destructive for some people. But then, so is alcohol. So it's driving fast cars on motorbikes. The hypothalamus isn't going anywhere, right?

我们应该去拉斯维加斯。但对我来说，有点疯狂的是这些行为居然是合法的。不过别怪参与其中的人，因为这个游戏远比任何一个人都要大。虽然玩起来很爽，但对某些人真的有破坏性。不过，酒精也是这样。开快车和骑摩托车也是如此。毕竟，下丘脑不会改变，对吧？

I mean, everyone's got one. And so you got to find the things that allow you to be adaptive and functional in life, not crater the things you've created. And also to feel like you're in the hunt. I mean, the hunt was the original gamble, right? Hunting for animals, hunting for food, hunting for mates. Seeing that thing grow closer on the horizon, working out the anticipation of it coming towards you. I'm getting closer, I'm getting closer and getting closer.

这句话的大意是：每个人都有自己的追求。因此，你需要找到那些能让你在生活中保持适应性和功能性的方法，而不是摧毁你已经建立的事物。另外，你也要有一种身处追逐中的感觉。追逐本身是最早的赌博，比如：追逐猎物、寻找食物、寻找伴侣。看到目标一点点接近，感受到期待逐渐逼近的过程，我越来越接近，越来越接近。

So driving a storm probably felt like a big win at some point. I mean, you know, like the number of women who used to die in childbirth, and then they were, you know, and then someone solved that puzzle, right? It was hand washing, I think, had a lot to do with it, right? I don't know if this story is true, but the story goes that there used to be a ton of death in childbirth.

开车穿越风暴在某个时刻可能被认为是一个巨大的胜利。我的意思是，你知道，像过去有很多女性在分娩时死亡，然后有人解决了这个难题，对吧？我想这与洗手有很大关系，对吧？我不知道这个故事是不是真的，但传说中以前在分娩过程中有很多女性死亡。

And some of the same physicians who were trying to figure out why were handling and dissecting the cadavers of these poor women who died in childbirth and then delivering babies the same afternoon without hand washing in between because we didn't understand bacteria. We understand the importance of hand washing. I don't know if that's true, that's been what's been reported.

一些同样在试图找出原因的医生解剖了那些死于分娩的女性尸体，并在同一天下午接生婴儿，但却没有在中间洗手，因为当时我们对细菌没有了解。现在我们知道洗手的重要性。我不确定这是否属实，但这就是所报道的情况。

But once they started washing their hands between essentially doing autopsy and delivering babies, rates of death in childbirth went down. There it is. So I wrote this article about the Cassandra complex. Do you know the Cassandra complex? No. Oh, dude, this is so. And I don't know anyone named Cassandra. What, let me, let me you do.

一旦人们开始在做完尸检和接生之间洗手，产妇死亡率就下降了。这就是关键。所以我写了一篇关于卡珊德拉综合症的文章。你知道什么是卡珊德拉综合症吗？不知道。哇，伙计，这真是太有趣了。另外，我也不认识任何叫卡珊德拉的人。让我来告诉你。

Well, yeah, allow me to teach you about the Cassandra complex. There are a few feelings worse in this life than being right but early. You correctly predict a future catastrophe, trend, opportunity for growth or important area of focus only to be castigated for how short-sighted, xenophobic, judgmental, out of touch, left-wing, right-wing or alarmist you are.

好的，让我来给你讲讲卡珊德拉情结。在生活中，很少有比“预见准确但为时过早”更糟糕的感受。当你正确地预测到未来的一场灾难、趋势、增长机会或重点关注领域，却因为被视为短视、排外、偏见、不够接地气、左翼、右翼或者危言耸听而受到批评。

The Cassandra complex is when someone accurately predicts a negative future event or truth, but no one believes them. And they're often dismissed, ignored or even ridiculed. It's named after Cassandra, a figure in Greek mythology, that God Apollo gave her the gift of prophecy, but after she rejected his advances, he cursed her so that no one would ever believe her warnings. She foresaw the fall of Troy, warned everyone, and was met with scorn. The city burned anyway.

卡桑德拉情结是指某人准确预测到未来的负面事件或真相，但没有人相信他们。他们常常被无视、忽略，甚至嘲笑。这个名字来源于希腊神话中的卡桑德拉。神阿波罗赋予她预言的能力，但因为她拒绝了他的追求，阿波罗诅咒她的预言无人相信。卡桑德拉预见了特洛伊城的沦陷，并警告了所有人，却遭到蔑视。最终，特洛伊城还是被烧毁了。

Rachel Carson, in her book, 1962, Silent Spring, warned about the environmental damage caused by pesticides. She was mocked by chemical companies and even some scientists, but her work eventually led to the environmental movement at the banning of DDT. Ignatius Samalwise, in the 1840s, realized that doctors were transmitting childbed fever from autopsies to mothers by not washing their hands. He begged his colleagues to adopt hand washing. They laughed at him. He died in an asylum. Decades later, germ theory proved him right.

在1962年，雷切尔·卡森在她的书《寂静的春天》中警告人们，杀虫剂会对环境造成危害。尽管她遭到了化学公司甚至一些科学家的嘲笑，但她的工作最终推动了环保运动，并导致了DDT的禁用。而在1840年代，伊格纳茨·塞麦尔威斯发现医生在尸检后没有洗手，就把产褥热传染给了产妇。他请求同事们养成洗手的习惯，却被嘲笑。他去世时在一家精神病院。几十年后，细菌理论证明了他的观点是正确的。

Wow. Let me give you this. I'm gonna give you the one, the best example of the Cassandra complex that I fucking love is the comparison between Copernicus and Galileo. So obviously, people that are right, but early get marked, cast-guided, pushed to one side, which is incentive for someone to not speak up. If they feel like they are telling the truth, but that the world is not going to be sufficiently receptive to it.

哇，我跟你说。我特别喜欢的一个关于卡珊德拉情结的最佳例子就是哥白尼和伽利略的比较。很显然，那些正确但过于超前的人往往会被排斥、被批评、被边缘化，这就会让人不敢发表自己的看法。如果他们觉得自己说的是真相，但世界却还没有准备好接受这一真相。

And Copernicus and Galileo, like, so great as an example of this. Copernicus in the early 1500s, quietly proposed something radical. The earth orbits the sun. Humans once the unmoving center of God's design went out spinning through space on a planet among many. But Copernicus hesitated. He delayed publishing his heliocentric model for decades. His great work, De la revolutionibus, came out only as he lay in his deathbed, likely to avoid the wrath of the church and academia. His truth was too disruptive. And so, for most of his life, it went unheard.

哥白尼和伽利略就是这方面的极佳例子。哥白尼在1500年代初期，悄悄地提出了一个激进的想法：地球围绕太阳旋转。人类曾被认为是上帝设计中的不动中心，但现在，他们却随着众多行星之一在宇宙中旋转。然而，哥白尼犹豫了。他推迟了几十年才发表他的日心说模型。他的伟大著作《天体运行论》直到他临终时才问世，这很可能是为了避免教会和学术界的愤怒。他的真理太具颠覆性。因此，他的大部分人生中，这一真理都未被听闻。

Galileo, a century later, took that same Copernicus spark and shouted it from the rooftops. He saw the moons of Jupiter, the phases of Venus, and the imperfections of the moon's surface, all evidence that the heavens were not as fixed or divine as taught. The church responded with fear. Galileo was dragged before the Inquisition, forced to recant under threat of torture, and sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life. In retrospect, it is not surprising that Copernicus kept his mouth shut, given how Galileo was treated.

伽利略在一个世纪后，接过了哥白尼的火炬，并大声宣扬。他发现了木星的卫星、金星的相位变化，以及月球表面的不完美，这些都证明天上的事物并不像教会传授的那样固定或神圣。教会对此感到恐惧，把他带到宗教裁判所，在酷刑威胁下强迫他认错，并判处余生软禁。从现在看来，考虑到伽利略所受的待遇，哥白尼保持沉默也就不足为奇了。

This is a core truth of the Cassandra complex. Being right isn't enough and being early can feel like being wrong. Wow. Yeah, I mean, much lesser example than what you just described, but the glyphatic system was discovered many years earlier by a woman at NIH. Oh, excuse me, at University of Maryland, a larger, more powerful scientific group tried to repeat the experiments, made a methodological flaw, couldn't repeat it. Everyone believed them. There's no lymphatic system in the brain.

这是卡桑德拉情结的核心真相：仅仅是正确还不够，过早地预见事情有时会让人感觉像是错误。哇，确实是这样。我是说，这个例子虽然不如你刚才描述的那么重大，但淋巴系统早在很多年前就被美国国立卫生研究院的一位女性科学家发现了。哦，对不起，是在马里兰大学。一个更大更有影响力的科学团队尝试重复这些实验，但他们在方法上有错误，结果无法重复他们的实验，于是大家都相信他们，认为大脑中没有淋巴系统。

Fortunately, she became an NIH program officer, which is somebody who has some degree of control over where funding gets directed and funded the work that later verified her findings. But it was purely by virtue of the fact that the power structure was arranged in a certain way. This happens a lot in science. I think you'd enjoy it, Chris, everyone thinks of Darwin and natural selection.

幸运的是，她成为了NIH（美国国立卫生研究院）的项目官员，这意味着她能够在一定程度上决定资金的分配方向，并资助了后来验证她研究成果的项目。但这完全是因为当时的权力结构以某种方式安排导致的。这样的事情在科学界经常发生。我想你会喜欢这样的故事，克里斯，大家都想到达尔文和自然选择。

But there was another guy, Alfred Russell Wallace, who essentially discovered all of it in parallel, and should have been elected to the Royal Academy and all of this stuff as well, like Darwin. But was not in the club, in the end club, and Darwin knew it, and actually it was very from what I understand very conflicted about not sharing the credit. It was only because of that rivalry that Darwin ended up pushing his study out, his work out.

但还有另一个人，阿尔弗雷德·拉塞尔·华莱士，他几乎和达尔文同时独立地发现了所有这些理论，也应该像达尔文一样被选入皇家学会等机构。然而，他最终没有进入那个“圈子”，达尔文对此心知肚明，并且据我了解，他对没有分享荣誉感到非常矛盾。正是由于这种竞争，达尔文才最终决定发表他的研究成果。

I think he had it, he sat on it for a while, he wanted to work on it more, he had a little bit of hyper-vigilant uncertainty and insecurity about himself. And then finally, upon hearing, oh, I might be beaten to the punch, published. Is that right? Yeah, and nobody associates Alfred Russell Wallace with the theory of evolution, natural selection. I mean, most people don't even know who it is.

我觉得他心里有了这个想法，他想了很久，想再多研究一下，他对自己有点过度警觉的不确定感和不安全感。最终，当他听说可能会被抢先一步时，他就发表了这个想法。是这样吗？没错，如今很少有人把阿尔弗雷德·拉塞尔·华莱士和进化论、自然选择理论联系在一起。实际上，大多数人甚至不认识这个人。

I mean, because my dad's a physicist and because I grew up in science, I know a lot of these stories. I mean, I know a story of, I'll keep this intentionally vague. There's a very, very famous and accomplished physicist that probably should have won a Nobel Prize. But he made one error, which is that he stole the girlfriend of one of his graduate students, married her. That graduate student did reasonably well.

我的意思是，因为我爸爸是物理学家，而且我是在科学的环境中长大的，所以我知道很多这样的故事。就是说，我知道一个故事，我会有意保持模糊。有一位非常著名和成功的物理学家，他或许本应获得诺贝尔奖。然而他犯了一个错误，就是抢走了他一名研究生的女朋友，并与她结婚。那个研究生后来发展的还不错。

And this would be very uncomfortable to work in the lab where your girlfriend is now sleeping with your boss. When he went on to marry a Swedish woman, and let's just say that guy that stole the girlfriend never won a Nobel Prize. The Swedish community is very close knit. You know, so I mean, I mean, the number of stories, I could tell you. a story after story, after story like that. But I try and avoid those stories, even though they're true. I'd much rather tell stories about the great scientific discoveries. Like stuff goes right. That stuff goes right because you know, that stuff's very enticing. It's the drama that we, you know, are drawn to as humans. Just naturally we have a preclivenity for that. But I think that there are so many stories of people making incredible discoveries through serendipity and hard work and things like that.

在实验室工作的情况下，你的女朋友现在和你的老板交往，这会让人感到非常不舒服。后来，他娶了一位瑞典女性，至于那个抢走女朋友的家伙，从来没有获得过诺贝尔奖。瑞典的社区关系非常紧密，你知道的，我可以跟你讲很多这样的故事，一个接一个，但我尽量避免谈这些故事，尽管它们都是真实的。我更愿意讲一些伟大的科学发现的故事，因为这些成功的故事更吸引人。我们作为人类，本能地被戏剧性故事吸引，但我觉得有很多人通过偶然性和努力工作取得了令人难以置信的发现，这些故事更值得分享。

So I mean, that's the good stuff. And so I always try and, if I mention a story like that, I like to balance that out and remind people that I do think that most scientists are well-intentioned. I do think most physicians are well-intentioned. I just had a guest on the podcast, David Faganbaum, who's a physician at UPEN and scientist. And he was a football player, big dude, Jack. He's like six, three, Jack. He's playing football. He's in medical school. And he gets this Castleman's disease, which is a cancer-like disease of the lymphatic system. He's told that he's going to die. He basically was near dead. And then he decided to just start trying all these already approved prescription drugs that nobody thought had anything to do with Castleman's or cancer.

所以，我就是说，这就是好的方面。因此，如果我提到这样的故事，我总是试图保持平衡，并提醒大家我确实相信大多数科学家都是出于好的意图。我确实相信大多数医生都是出于好的意图。我曾经在播客上邀请了一位嘉宾，David Faganbaum，他是宾夕法尼亚大学的一位医生兼科学家。他曾是橄榄球运动员，个子高大、壮实，大约六英尺三英寸。他一边读医学院，一边打橄榄球。后来，他患上了Castleman病，这是一种类似癌症的淋巴系统疾病。医生告诉他可能会死去，他几乎已经奄奄一息。于是，他决定开始尝试服用一些已经获得批准的处方药，这些药本来没人认为与Castleman或癌症有关。

And he's alive now 11 years later. And he's developed this not-for-profit called EveryCure where they is completely not-for-profit and his lab focuses on taking all the diseases that we have, like, 14,000 diseases we have no treatments for. And taking existing approved drugs that basically stand to make companies very little money because they're all from generic form now. And using AI and doing these things in combination, they've saved kids from nonverbal forms of brain illness. They've saved people, adults, and children from cancers. Turns out that women who have breast cancer surgery that involves lidocaine as a local anesthetic have a 30% less chance of having a recurrence.

他现在仍然活着，已经过去11年了。他创办了一个名为EveryCure的非营利组织，这个组织完全是非盈利的。他的实验室专注于研究我们面临的各种疾病，我们有14,000种疾病没有治疗办法。他们利用现有的已批准药物，这些药物因为都是仿制药，对公司来说几乎没有经济利益。通过使用人工智能和其他方法的结合，他们拯救了患有无口语能力脑部疾病的儿童，也拯救了患癌症的成人和儿童。他们发现，接受利多卡因作为局部麻醉的乳腺癌手术女性复发的几率能降低30%。

Different uses for aspirin, for colon cancer. I mean, you know, and so his belief- There's a repurposing old drugs for- Exactly. Current anonset. So his belief, as a physician, as a card-carrying member of that community is that the field of medicine has many cures in hand and excellent treatments in hand. Combined with- For the things that people are struggling with. When I hear this stuff about, well, low-dose lithium, everyone's, you know, maybe pinging that once a year for offsetting the potential for Alzheimer's. Or now we're hearing a lot about the particulate and certain air pollution, you know, might be one of the primary players in causing dementia.

不同用途的阿司匹林，例如治疗结肠癌。我是说，你知道的，所以他的信念是——将旧药重新用于现有的疾病。作为一名医生，同时也是这个社区的正式成员，他相信医学领域已经掌握了许多治愈方法和优良的治疗手段，用于解决人们正在面临的问题。当我听到关于低剂量锂的讨论时，每个人都可能每年使用一次，以抵消阿尔茨海默病的潜在风险。或者现在我们听到很多关于某些颗粒物和空气污染，可能是导致痴呆症的主要因素之一的说法。

You know, when I hear this stuff, it's like we need to be testing existing medication. So the field of medicine, the fields of science, you know, as having been in this field of science for a long time, although now I'm in public education and still faculty member at Stanford, the key thing to understand is that it is a business of people. There's a sociology to the business. Just like there's a sociology of podcasting in media, which, you know, is a discussion to itself. But this is actually what really maybe understand Rogan a lot better.

你知道，当我听到这些事情的时候，我就觉得我们需要测试现有的药物。在医学和科学领域，经过长期在这个科学领域的工作，虽然现在我在公共教育领域并且仍然是斯坦福的教职员工，关键要理解的是这是一项关于人类的事业。这其中有社会学的因素，就像媒体中的播客也有其社会学特性，这本身也是一个值得讨论的话题。但这确实让我更好地理解了Rogan。

I remember at one point some years back, I asked him, I'm like, where does your kind of like belief or skepticism and certain things come from? And he just took me, Denley, I, and he just said, because I know people. And he, anyone who knows Rogan knows he has a lot of different kinds of friends. And he interacts with a lot of different types of people. He's not narrow. He's extremely broad in his interactions, not just on his podcast. And I realized in that moment, I was like, okay, got it. He casts this really wide net, but he has a very selective filter on what he integrates.

我记得几年前的某个时候，我问过他，我说，你的信仰或怀疑的态度来自哪里呢？他就看着我，说，因为我了解人。认识罗根的人都知道他有很多不同类型的朋友，并且与各种各样的人互动。他的交际面非常广，不仅仅是在他的播客上。在那一刻，我意识到，好吧，明白了。他的交际面广泛，但对于选择吸收什么，他有自己非常谨慎的标准。

And it's because he understands people, the good and bad aspects of people. And I think that's the kind of acumen that it is only developed through life experience. And if you're a scientist or you're a physician and you're very entrenched in your field, you can be the best oncologist, the best ophthalmologist, the best neurologist. And if you're considered the best because of your knowledge within that silo, or even multiple silos, but you don't have life experience and no people from different areas of life, I guarantee you are not the physician I want to be treated by or that I want a family member treated by. Yep.

因为他了解人性，了解人性的优缺点。我认为这种洞察力只能通过生活经验来培养。如果你是一名科学家或医生，在你的专业领域中根深蒂固，你可以是最好的肿瘤学家、眼科医生或神经学家。如果你被认为是该领域，甚至多个领域的专家，但你没有生活经验，也不了解来自不同背景的人的话，我保证你不是我想要求医的医生，也不是我希望家人求医的医生。是的。

Because you have to understand not just the information and the source of the information in terms of paper and rigor and laboratory. You have to understand the motivations and almost the personality types of the people behind that work. It's so true. I mean, this was the beautiful baptism of running nightclubs for so long. I met a million people in person. And their inhibitions are down because they're doing good. Absolutely. And some things that tuned up, aggression or openness or the humor or whatever it is that they're trying to do, it really reveals and kind of I guess exaggerates who people are. But fuck like you become really, really good at judging people and really, really good at assessing this person's motivations. How sort of real is this?

因为你不仅要理解信息本身和信息来源，比如论文的严谨性和实验室背景。你还需要理解从事这些研究工作的人的动机，甚至他们的性格类型。这是真的，我的意思是，多年经营夜总会让我深刻体会到这一点。我亲自遇见过无数人，当他们放松警惕后，可以更真实地展现自我。的确如此，有些人会释放出更多的攻击性、开放性、幽默感或者其他他们想展现的特质，这其实揭示了并且可以说是夸大了他们的本性。但在这种环境下，你会变得非常擅长识别和判断人的动机。这究竟有多真实？

It's been a couple of times on the pod where I've sat down with someone and I'm like, I don't know what to think about this person. And after I've sat down with them, I know. And I know in one of a couple of directions and like, that was good or whatever. But like, when I couldn't go. Where you didn't believe what they were saying. We're not going to go. Yeah. We're not going to go. I've had that experience. I won't mention it. I would say 95% of 98% of our guests I've felt that way. There was only one or two instances that I got any kind of inkling that they weren't as sure as they sounded or something of that sort. But I think that that's the good thing about podcasting is that it's not just an interview.

有几次在录播客的时候，我和某些人坐下来聊，我心里会想，我不知道该如何评价这个人。但是聊完之后，我心里就有数了，方向有好几种，比如说，感觉不错或者其他。不过，有时候也会遇到让我不太能接受他们说的话的人，我们就不会继续录下去。这样的经历我有过，但我就不具体说是谁了。我想说的是，大约95%到98%的嘉宾让我感觉不错。只有一两次，我隐约觉得他们说得并不像听起来那么笃定。不过，我认为这就是播客的好处，因为它不仅仅是一次访谈。

You can ping people for ideas and you can ping people around those ideas. You're not trying to catch them in anything. But you really, I mean, it's fine because we're sitting across. It's like how you get to know anybody. You would sit across from them and you would talk to them. And the smallest, I use this example of watching musicians on stage. So one of the things that I find coolest about anybody that does anything a lot is not them doing the main thing. It's their transition activities within the thing. So for instance, I spent a long time at university. If you put a pen in my hand, it just immediately starts moving through my fingers. You're one of those. I do my stick. I don't know if I look out on my vision. I'm not teaching in the classroom much these days.

你可以请别人提供想法，也可以请他们围绕这些想法讨论。你并不是想抓住他们的错误。其实，这没问题，因为我们面对面坐着，就像你认识任何人一样。你会坐在他们对面，和他们交谈。我用一个看台上表演的音乐家的例子来说明这点。我认为任何人做某件事做得多了，最有趣的部分并不是他们做这件事的主线，而是他们在这个过程中做的过渡动作。比如，我在大学里待了很长时间，只要我手里拿着笔，它就会自然地在我指间旋转。你可能也是这样。我演绎我的风格，不知道在我的视野中有没有别人这么做。现在我在教室授课的时间不多了。

Although soon I will again. And it's like watching a bunch of propellers. A Mexican wave of pen twirling. Yeah, I just because I did. I put a pen in my hand and I do that. One of my friends, Zach, the way that he takes, if he bing, if one of his guitar picks goes while he's playing, he's warming up for me on tour. If one of his guitar picks goes like the way that he fucking like just seamlessly snags another one. Like that's what's fucking cool because that is this moment of unconscious betrayal of pattern. Would be a way to think about it. A drummer that like snaps a stick and you'll just see and he'll switch seamlessly. Or he'll be playing, he was playing the high hat with his right hand and his right drum stick goes. So he'll switch and you'll see him move with his left and then he, and then it's back out and you're like, do that's so fucking cool.

虽然我很快会再次这样做。这就像在观看一群旋转的螺旋桨；就像一个墨西哥波浪般的笔旋转。我只是因为我做了。我手里拿了一支笔，然后开始这样旋转。我的一个朋友扎克，如果他弹吉他的时候拨片不小心掉了，他会无缝衔接地再拿起一个新的。这种瞬间的流畅动作真的很酷，就像是无意识地摆脱了某种模式。你可以这样去理解：一个鼓手断了一支鼓槌，然后你会看到他轻松地切换；或者他用右手打吊镲，结果右手的鼓槌掉了，然后他左手继续打，动作一气呵成，你就会觉得太酷了。

I love seeing people that are, the way that the guys will set up their cameras. Like I'll see the guys taking a shot and they'll need to change something. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And I'm like, you just did six things in two seconds. It's a hyper proficiency. I am so fucking cool. Right. I think that's so sick. I want to touch on what you said before, which was sort of the fixation that people have groups, different groups have on stuff. What do you make of the attempt of legacy media to turn, get more high quality protein into a political issue? I think this has been one of the most interesting patterns to see that like protein has become politically coded somehow. And obviously this is kind of further the health and wellness industry kind of old hat now.

我喜欢看到人们（尤其是那些拍照片的人）如何设置他们的相机。有时候我会看到他们拍摄时需要调整些什么，“咔咔咔咔咔咔”，他们在两秒钟内就完成了六个步骤，这太厉害了。我觉得这真的很酷。我想谈谈你之前提到的，那就是人们在群体中对某些事物的执着。你怎么看待传统媒体试图将高质量蛋白质变成政治议题的行为？我认为最有趣的现象之一就是蛋白质 somehow 已经变得有了政治色彩。显然，这也让健康与保健行业持续受到关注，尽管有点老套。

To talk about like protein is prioritizing protein is something that you probably should consider or at least be where of. But yeah, what do you make of the fact that protein consumption has become politicized? And resistance training for a little while, although I think the wave caught to stimulate the idea that everybody, men, women, young and old should be resistance training. So you can no longer like kind of bro science resistance training. Although I have to say even though I have respect for certain elements of bodybuilding, I do think that the bodybuilding culture I think has kind of distracted from what's possible with resistance training as a positive health stimulus. A lot of people are still averse to it. Because you look at people who are bodybuilders and don't exactly see the picture of health?

谈论蛋白质时，优先考虑蛋白质是你可能应该考虑的，或者至少要注意的事情。但是，你如何看待蛋白质消费被政治化的现象？此外，关于力量训练，虽然这个趋势已经引起了大家的关注，但对于所有人——无论男女老少——都应该进行力量训练的观点，现在变得更加普遍。因此，你不能再把力量训练当作一些“肌肉男科学”来看待。虽然我尊重健美运动的一些方面，但我确实认为健美文化有点偏离了力量训练作为健康积极刺激的可能性。很多人对力量训练仍然持抵触态度，因为他们看到的健美运动员并不完全符合健康的典范形象。

Yeah, and I think it's also the way that bodybuilding changes the entire relationship to food in general and to life in general. And look, anything that's so, look, I think Daryn Yates is an amazing athlete, right? I can think of him as an athlete and what he did and the way he did it. And I knew Mike Menser and he was the one that I knew Menser. No way. He sold me my first training program by phone. I can tell you the story. I'll tell you that in a moment. New Menser, I write about him in my book that comes out later this year. New Menser had a lot of conversations about Menser, not just about resistance training, but also about school and philosophy. He was one of the people that really encouraged me to get serious about my academics.

是的，我认为健美彻底改变了人与食物的整体关系，也改变了生活方式。你看，任何事情都是这样。我觉得Daryn Yates是一位了不起的运动员，对吧？我可以把他当作一位运动员来看待，无论他做了什么以及他是如何做到的。我认识Mike Menser，他是我认识的那位Menser。真的，他通过电话卖给我我的第一个训练计划。我可以给你讲这个故事，一会儿就给你讲。我在我今年晚些时候出版的书里写了关于Menser的内容。我和Menser有过很多对话，不仅是关于阻力训练，还包括学校和哲学。他是非常鼓励我认真对待学术的那些人之一。

Yeah, Mike Menser was part of your origin story. Yeah, I'm Mike Menser who I'll just, I'll get back to the track media thing. But yes, I signed up for a program. He's the reason why I still to this day, you know, since I was 16, 15 hours, I mentioned, I still train three, maybe four days a week, not one set to failure, but you know, keeping set volume low. One thing that isn't advertised a lot, Mike didn't talk about it in his seminars, is that a lot of what determines total set number is how well you can really direct the effort toward the muscle you're trying to target. So some people are exceptionally good at that, I think Dorian was. Other people like, no matter how hard they try and curl with just their biceps and forearms and anterior delts, like it's going everywhere, you know?

是的，迈克·门瑟是你故事起源的一部分。我是迈克·门瑟，我会回到关于媒体的事情上。但没错，我报名参加了一个计划。他是我从16岁起至今仍然每周训练三到四天的原因，不过不是每组都训练到力竭，而是保持较低的组数。有一点并没有广泛宣传，迈克也没有在他的讲座中提到过，就是决定总组数的一个关键因素是你能多好地将努力集中在你想要锻炼的肌肉上。有些人特别擅长这一点，我觉得多里安就是这样。而其他人，无论他们多努力尝试只用二头肌、前臂和前三角肌来做弯举，却一直无法做到，他们的力量分布总是散得很开。

Yeah. And so a lot of his about being able to sell connections. One thing he was very clear about is that as you get better at training, the neural component of contracting the muscles that you're trying to contract, you actually can get by with fewer sets because you're able to direct more intensity to those muscle groups. So over time, I found, yeah, I probably do somewhere between six and eight sets per muscle group. But with two, I can not slaughter the muscle, but I can get where I need to go. But I like training, so sometimes I'll do more. But yeah, Menser was great. I signed up for this program. My mother was like, I was 16 or maybe even 15 years old. And she was like, why is this grown man calling the house? Because back then you do like a phone consultation and Mike didn't talk Mike barked.

好的。这段话主要在讲销售联系的能力。他很明确地指出，当你在训练方面越来越熟练时，能够更好地神经控制你想要收缩的肌肉，你实际上可以用更少的组数达到效果，因为你可以将更多的强度集中到那些肌肉群上。因此，随着时间的推移，我发现我可能会为每个肌肉群做大约六到八组练习。但实际上，用两组就能达到我的目标，而不是过度训练。我很喜欢训练，所以有时候我会做到更多的组数。而他提到Menser，这个人很棒。我报名参加了一个项目，当时我大概16岁，甚至可能15岁。我母亲问我，为什么一个成年人打电话到家里。因为那时候需要电话咨询，而Mike说话不是在讲，而是在吼。

He'd be like, listen, and the only thing, you know, and he would say, he's like, and the number one thing is you don't want to listen to anyone else besides me. He told me, he said, he said, most people in gyms are explikative morons. He said, they're morons. He kept saying these people have the intelligence of a toad. And he was just like, yeah, and yeah. And then he'd rep them on these six sales code. And then he'd recommend these anoran books. And then I even had some sleep issues when I was in college because my dorm was really loud. You know what, you know the advice he gave me? This is so well. And I have a friend from college who's now a fertility doc here in an L.A. And he remembered this story.

他会说，听着，唯一要注意的是，你不能听别人的，只能听我的。他告诉我，大多数在健身房的人都是愚蠢的傻瓜。他说，他们就是傻瓜。他一直说这些人的智商不如一只癞蛤蟆。然后他会教他们六个营销代码，还推荐一些安兰的书。当我上大学时，因为宿舍很吵，我甚至有了一些睡眠问题。你知道他给了我什么建议吗？这真的很绝了。我有个大学好友，现在在洛杉矶当生育医生，他还记得这个故事。

Menser, this is terrible advice. He said, get a jug of white wine. And just have like a half mug of white wine. If you wake up in the middle and you'll fall back. First of all, it doesn't work at all. Okay, so like hitting miss. Oh, listen, Mike was an extreme guy. But he actually said, he said, stay away from anabolic, which I did. He said, enjoy learning to train hard. Enjoy your training hard. He said, even though it wasn't a fan of cardio, like get out and live life. And he said and read really good books. And we gave him his book list. And to that, yeah, I still follow the same. Yeah, Mike was amazing. And then when he died, I heard later I was very sad. I mean, we'd been touched a little bit because I was in Santa Barbara. And he was down in L.A. at that time.

Menser，这真是个糟糕的建议。他说，拿一罐白葡萄酒，只喝半杯。如果你半夜醒来，喝了还能再睡着。首先，这根本不起作用。有时候行有时候不行。哦，听着，迈克是个极端的人。但实际上他说过，要远离合成代谢类固醇，我一直都没碰过。他还说，要享受努力训练的乐趣。尽管他不太喜欢有氧运动，他还是鼓励大家走出去，享受生活。他还建议阅读优秀的书籍，我们给过他推荐书单。我至今仍然遵循这些建议。迈克非常了不起。当他去世时，我听到消息后非常难过。我们曾有过接触，因为我那时在圣巴巴拉，而他当时在洛杉矶。

Okay, so Menser protein politicization. What's going on? Well, traditional media is like, we'll take anything at this point as an attempt to gulp for error because they're really struggling, right? I mean, there are some decent journalists in traditional media, right? There are. I think that they, but they'll not just by quote unquote politicizing something, gives them something to say about it, right? One gram of protein per pound of lean or desired body mass is kind of the standard thing now. Some people will less, some people a little bit more. Okay, fine, fine. I think we all get that. That's the goal. If you get a little less, you're probably fine. If you get a little more, you're probably fine. If you get tons more, you're probably not fine. You get tons less. You're not fine. Animal proteins clearly superior as a, as a quality protein to calorie ratio.

好的，那么，Menser蛋白质政治化，这是怎么回事呢？嗯，传统媒体现在几乎什么都愿意报道，因为他们真的很挣扎，对吧？我意思是说，在传统媒体中确实有一些优秀的记者，对吧？有的。我觉得，他们通过所谓的“政治化”某个话题就能有东西可谈，对吧？每磅瘦体重或理想体重一克蛋白质，差不多是现在的标准。一些人摄入会更少一些，一些人会多一些。好吧，没问题。我想我们都明白这是目标。如果摄入稍微少一些，也许也没关系。如果多一些，也可能没问题。如果摄入非常多，那可能不太好。如果非常少，也不行。动物蛋白显然在蛋白质质量与卡路里比率方面占优势。

Right? You're giving it eight ounce piece of steak or you have to eat half a jar of peanut butter, which is not protein. It's a bunch of fat with a little bit of protein in it. Okay. So why do they politicize it? Well, because they're struggling. They're struggling big time in terms of how to generate revenues. I mean, people expect to get their news. Two things have certainly happened. I believe as a decline on this, that people are no longer digesting their news because local news is much. It's more national level news and international level news. Look, putting your name in a title or Rogan's name in a title is going to generate clicks. Saying great things about people, kind of things about you. Generally, it doesn't get you. He's such a nice guy. Yeah. I've had a few nice articles written in some of the health magazines will pull protocols and things and I love it.

好的？你在给它一块八盎司的牛排，或者你得吃半罐花生酱，而花生酱不是蛋白质，只是有些蛋白质的脂肪。好，那么为什么他们要将其政治化呢？因为他们在苦苦挣扎，尤其是在如何创收方面。我是说，人们期望获得他们的新闻。有两件事情肯定发生了，我相信随着这一点的下降，人们不再消化他们的新闻，因为地方新闻很多。更多的是国家一级的新闻和国际级的新闻。看，把你的名字或Rogan的名字放在一个标题中会产生点击。说一些关于人们的好话不会带给你太多关注。他是个很好的人。是的，我看到了一些健康杂志里写的关于我的一些好文章，我很喜欢那些规章制度和内容。

I would say things in the health section in New York Times, very often, parrot, what I've covered and other people have covered and they do it differently. But you can often predict what they're going to cover by looking at the various health podcasts of Peter's. So Peter was just on 60 minutes, Peter Tia. Yeah. I texted him about it and he said, as he said, nice to see traditional media not accusing me of something unspeakable for ones. Yeah. I mean, they seem to focus a bit much on how much he charges his clients and this kind of thing. The fact that he said that that was a sort of clean and fair interview, despite the fact that there is some fuckery going on in there. Yeah. It just goes to, I mean, well, listen, they're, to say they're losing powers in understatement. They've lost power. To some degree, there's still some trust there from a number of people.

我会说，《纽约时报》的健康栏目经常重复我和其他人已经报道过的内容，而且他们的呈现方式有所不同。不过，你经常能通过关注彼得的各种健康播客来预测他们将要报道的内容。彼得最近上了《六十分钟》，彼得·阿提亚。是的，我发短信给他说，他说很高兴看到传统媒体这次没有对他有不可思议的指责。不过，他们似乎有点过于关注他向客户收取的费用之类的事情。他认为那次采访是干净和公平的，尽管里面也有一些问题。这就表明，嗯，可以说，认为他们正在失去影响力是轻描淡写。他们已经失去了影响力。尽管如此，许多人仍然对他们抱有一定的信任。

And to some degree, you know, every topic, health topic in particular seems to go through the same arc. It's like nobody knows about it except in niche cultures. Let's just take the glimphatic system. Nobody knew about it. This one woman discovered it was not suppressed, but it was kind of knocked back. Then it came out as all the rage. Then 20s, a few years ago, there's study not as much glimphatic clearance as we thought. And you occasionally someone said, oh, it's not a, not a real thing. One mouse study, one mouse study didn't see it. Right? And I know the history of the glimphatic research. So it's very clear. It's there. Okay. The arc is, okay, exciting, exciting, exciting, exciting. Take dopamine, dopamine nation on a Lemke's beautiful work.

在某种程度上，你知道，每一个话题，尤其是健康话题，似乎都会经历相同的发展轨迹。就像一开始，除了小众文化，没人知道它的存在。拿“脑脊液淋巴系统”举例，一开始没人知道它的存在，然后有个女性科学家发现了它，这个发现没有被压制，但也没引起重视。后来，它突然变得非常热门。但二十世纪二十年代，几年前，有研究称这个系统的清除能力没有我们想象的那么高。偶尔有人会说，这根本不存在——有一项关于老鼠的研究没能发现它。对吧？而我了解脑脊液淋巴系统研究的历史，所以很明确，它确实存在。整个过程就是这样：一开始非常激动人心，接着出现质疑。拿多巴胺来说，用安娜·莱姆克的精彩工作作为例子。

Yep. Then about 18 months later, it's, well, it's not, you know, it's just in mind. It's low in p-value. Listen, create team, the next, it looks, you can guarantee that in eight weeks or six months or whenever it is, it's going to be creating not as important as we thought for. There's just the natural arc, right? Yeah. And then it's the, yes, the things that work still work and the things that don't, don't. It's very rare for anything to sort of capture and then just get, get completely obliterated. Like I was talking about delaying caffeine by, you know, 90 minutes or so. If you crash in the afternoon, it's a great thing to try. Then there was, so it was, it got a lot of positive attention.

好的。然后大约18个月后，你知道，它就是一直在你脑海中。它的p值很低。听着，创建团队，接下来，看起来你可以保证在八周或六个月后或者其他时候，它的重要性不会像我们之前认为的那么大。这就是一种自然的过程，对吧？是的，然后就是，是的，有效的事情仍然有效，无效的就无效。很少有什么东西会突然风靡，然后就彻底消失不见。比如我提到过延迟喝咖啡大约90分钟。如果你下午感到疲惫，这个方法值得一试。然后那时候，这个方法获得了很多积极的关注。

Then there was the pushback. Show me the clinical trial. Show me the benefits. It's like, no, it's, show me whether or not you crash in the afternoon, try it if you want or don't. Like, hey, easy. It's a suggestion. It's grounded in mechanistic science. Even the coffee accounts on YouTube were pissed off about this. Listen, the big thing that, I guess the direct answer to your question is, you're taking their paycheck. Do you know how much these reporters make? You're taking their paycheck. The irony of it is, if you look at some of the advertisements in traditional media, it's like, Fendi bags and like all these fancy things and in some cases, dietary supplements.

然后出现了反对的声音。有人要求提供临床试验的证据，要求展示好处。这就像，‘不，我的意思是，看看你下午会不会崩溃，想尝试就尝试，不想就算了。’再说，放轻松，这只是个建议，它有科学理论作基础。甚至连YouTube上的咖啡频道对这件事都不满。你知道吗，直接回答你的问题就是，你抢了他们的收入。你知道这些记者的薪水有多少吗？你正在抢他们的饭碗。有趣的是，如果你看看传统媒体上的一些广告，它们就像芬迪包和所有这些奢侈品，有时候还有膳食补充剂。

So they are our competitors, but, and this is the critical caveat. They're competing with us. I never think about what they're doing. I never look. I don't care if somebody's saying, okay, I'm never going to modify my content on the basis of what any of these traditional media houses are doing. They are in the chase position now. 100%. Now, does that mean that we will always be, you know, leaders in this space? No, it has to be very careful to not assume that, right? There's some kid, some guy or gal, some place who's going to take my lunch someday. That's the way, you know, and I'm not a kick out the ladder from you.

所以他们算是我们的竞争对手，但这有个关键的前提。他们是在跟我们竞争。我从来不去关注他们在做什么。我不关心有没有人说，“好吧，我永远不会根据那些传统媒体的表现来调整我的内容。” 现在，他们已经处于追赶的位置了，100%是这样。那这是否意味着我们就会永远是这个领域的领导者呢？不，我们必须非常小心，不能自认为理所当然。因为总有某个小孩，某个人，无论男女，总有一天会“抢走我们的午餐”。这就是现实，但我不会因此去阻止他们的上升之路。

I'll give, I'll hop on Instagram, live and give people 100 suggestions about how to get their content out more broadly. I'm from based on what I know. I'm just not that way. I was weaned in a culture of science where you train people. My students are now on the job market or have labs, etc. That's the way it's done. But traditional media are competitors of podcasts. That's why they've started podcasts. You and I are very fortunate that we started podcasts in, I wouldn't say the first wave, but like if we were making now, second wave, second wave, pop based, I mean listen. When did you also lunch? 2021. Did it really? Yeah, January 2021. Fucking hell. I thought he was before that. But 2020, I was going on a lot of podcasts. I went on like 30 podcasts. And prior to that, I was starting to teach a little bit on Instagram and that kind of thing. But I mean, podcasting is growing like crazy. I mean, I want to encourage people to make content.

我会在 Instagram 上开直播，给大家 100 个建议，帮助他们更广泛地传播内容。这是基于我所了解的。我并不是那种人，我是在一个重视培养人才的科学文化中成长的。我的学生现在已经在就业市场上，或在实验室工作等。这就是传授的方法。但传统媒体是播客的竞争对手，这就是他们开始制作播客的原因。我们很幸运能够在不算是第一波，但如果用现在的标准来看，就是第二波、第二波的受欢迎时期开始制作播客。我是说，你是什么时候开始的？2021 年。真的？是的，2021 年 1 月。天啊，我以为是更早一些。在 2020 年，我参加了很多播客节目，大概有 30 个左右。在那之前，我开始在 Instagram 上做一些教学之类的事情。但我的意思是，播客增长得非常快，我真的想鼓励人们制作内容。

But the content that I think is most important is not content about content. This is the, this is the really dangerous hook for people. Content about content. And also you'll find that the people who have very successful podcasts tend to be people who are successful in something else first. You certainly have that. Lex, me, Rogan, Rick Rubin. I mean, Theo Whitney, he goes on and on. I mean, Tim Dylan, et cetera. And there's a bridge. There's a natural overlap between what people were trained to do and what they're doing in their podcast. But there are very few podcasts. I mean, I'm sure there are some that are just like someone decides like I'm a podcaster. So the person who wants to be influential for lack of a better phrase in media, they want to teach. They want to teach science. They want to encourage thinking and make a living doing it. Encourage health practices. Make a living doing it. I would encourage them to go do something else first that they really enjoy because that, the structure of that and that very thing is going to inform their content.

我觉得最重要的内容不是关于“内容”的内容。对于很多人来说，关于“内容”的内容是一个非常危险的诱惑。同时，你会发现，那些非常成功的播客主持人往往是在其他领域先成功的人。像是 Lex、我、Rogan、Rick Rubin 等都是如此。Thel Whitney 和 Tim Dylan 等人也是。因为在人们接受训练的领域和他们在播客中所做的事情之间，有一座天然的桥梁。尽管肯定存在一些播客，是某人单纯决定要成为一个播客主持人而做的，但是非常少见。追求在媒体上有影响力的人，通常想要教授知识，鼓励思考，并通过这种方式谋生，比如教授科学知识，鼓励健康生活习惯等。我建议他们先去从事其他自己真正热爱的事情，因为这种经历和结构会为他们的内容提供灵感和信息。

Very few people are going to, like if they start giving out degrees in media, it's our social media. I don't think it's going to be very useful. Whitney Cummins got the best take on this. She says in order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life. So good. And it's one of the challenges you get is people become more successful that the ability to generate new ideas decreases because their life is increasingly out of touch. And to the comedian who only talks about dinners, shows and airports and hotels on stage because that's the entirety of their life experience. Or they're craft or sorry, ginger, but or they're craft. I mean, you said I'm leading an increasingly eccentric life. I mean, the reason I have a pedock was that always one and one. I love a Cuddlefish. I love a query. I have this art project with someone who's a kind of a human.

很少有人会因为社交媒体相关的学位而觉得有用。惠特尼·卡明斯对此有一个很好的见解：为了让艺术模仿生活，你必须先体验生活。这句话真好。这也是一些人成功后面临的挑战之一：随着生活越来越脱节，他们产生新想法的能力会下降。比如有些喜剧演员，只能在舞台上谈论餐馆、演出、机场和酒店，因为这些就是他们全部的生活经验。或者他们的手艺，抱歉，也许他们是生姜—不过或者是他们的手艺。你说过我正在过一种越来越离奇的生活。我的意思是，我养了一只鹦鹉是因为我一直想要一只。我喜欢章鱼，喜欢鱼缸。我有个艺术项目和一个类似于人类的人在一起合作。

Are you going to try and justify buying an octopus as like inspiration for? I'm going to teach an octopus how to use an iPad. Okay. And I'm going to decode what the camouflage patterns of the octopus mean for thinking. Is it maybe octopus? What is it? No, well right now I have an Indonesian octopus that's not very interactive. I want a Pacific two spot. This is a whole thing. It's going to open up some trauma for me. I'm getting a new octopus soon. Caribbean day octopus is probably on the way. But the idea is actually to use AI to try and decomball what the octopus is thinking and maybe even communicate with the octopus. They are very smart. I had 40 Cuddlefish in my lab in San Diego. They are so smart. And they're also cephalopods, cousins of the octopus. But the reason I'm doing that, the reason I have my art projects, the reason I extended my book for a year to add more studies is I like learning.

你是否打算为购买章鱼找借口，比如说用作灵感？我要教一只章鱼如何使用iPad。而且我将解读章鱼伪装图案对思维的意义。到底是章鱼吗？现在我有一只来自印度尼西亚的章鱼，但它不是很有互动性。我想要一只太平洋双斑章鱼。这件事情会触发我一些创伤。我很快就要买另一只章鱼了，可能是一只加勒比海白天章鱼。但是，我的想法是利用人工智能来尝试解读章鱼的思维，甚至与章鱼交流。它们非常聪明。我在圣地亚哥的实验室里有40只墨鱼，它们非常聪明。而且它们也是头足类动物，和章鱼是亲戚。但我这样做的原因，我进行艺术项目的原因，我延长一年为书添加更多研究的原因是，我喜欢学习。

And I as my friend of mine said, he's a very intelligent guy. He's a tattooer among other things. He's an exceptional artist. And he said, people with interests are interesting. You know what's not interesting? Other people's failures. Other people's minor wins. Like there's nothing more boring than that. But it hooks in the short term. So social media I think of as a very, we should go up to clouds rest some time and height clouds rest. And you know, semi beautiful. But there's this very narrow rock bridge out to the top. And on either side it's slide to your death. Slide your death. And so I'm always doing, I don't get down on all fours. But it's precarious. But it's beautiful when you get to the top. And it opens up into a big flat spoonier above half dome. It's gorgeous. I go there as often as I can. But on either side you fall to your death.

就像我一个朋友说的，他非常聪明。他是一名纹身师，同时也是一位杰出的艺术家。他说，有兴趣的人才有趣。你知道什么不有趣吗？别人的失败和小胜利。这些是再无聊不过的东西了，但却能在短期内吸引人。所以我认为社交媒体就像一座非常险峻的地方，我们有空应该去攀登一下。就像云彩栖息处的那条狭窄的岩石桥，走到顶端时两边都是绝壁，一不小心就可能摔下去丧命。所以每次去我都很小心，虽然不至于趴在地上爬过去，但确实需要小心翼翼。不过，当你到达顶端时，风景非常壮美，平坦宽广，俯瞰半圆顶，是个美极了的地方。我会尽量常去，不过千万小心，因为两边都是悬崖，一失足就可能丧命。

And I always think of the internet and much of life like this. On one side is the fall to your death. That is numbing out by going online. And the other one is drama. Like, who's, I mean, I don't want to name names because I don't want to give it anymore. Like recently there was an online drama in the fitness community. And I was like, I unfollowed a bunch of accounts. I was like, this is the most boring stupid thing I've ever seen in my entire life. And this is seeding my thoughts. This is seeding my, but I got to go back to reading good books. I'm going into my basement. You know, so you're allowed to unfollow accounts that you're not learning from. Or that are pulling you into either numbing out or drama. The drama piece is very serious because it gives the illusion that there's something meaningful there. But you realize this is just like, it's nothingness.

我一直将互联网和生活的很多方面看成是这样的：一边是让你麻木的深渊，即无休止的上网；另一边是喧嚣的戏剧，比如最近健身圈子里的某个网上事件，我不想具体点名，因为我不想让它再得到关注。我取关了很多账号，因为我觉得这件事太无聊了，简直是我这辈子见过的最无聊的事，而它还影响到了我的思考。我意识到我该重新去读一些好书了，是时候回到我自己的空间了。你完全可以选择不再关注那些你学不到东西的账号，或者那些让你陷入麻木或者戏剧化的人。那些戏剧化的东西很危险，因为它让你误以为那里有意义，但最终你会发现这不过是虚无而已。

And it is, that's a fascinating way to look at it. It is kind of the empty calories of the content world that you leave this. Having been given the sort of simulation of learning something. But if somebody said, okay, after watching this 10 minute, half hour, one hour, expose or deconstruction, what do you know that you didn't know at the start? You go, I know about what this person and this person said to each other, about each other, and how the interplay. And look, deconstructing someone's psychological profile, understanding how human motivations work. I'm fascinated by the way that social interaction, hierarchy, status games, all of that stuff. But I'm not learning that. I'm not reading the status game by Will Stor.

这真是一个很有趣的角度来看待这个问题。这有点像是内容世界里的空热量。你离开时，感觉好像学到了什么，但如果有人问你，"看完这段10分钟、半小时或者一小时的分析或解构后，你有什么新的收获？" 你可能会说，我知道了某人与某人互相说了什么，关于彼此的看法和互动。这确实涉及对人的心理特征的解构和理解人类动机运作的方式。我对社会互动、等级、地位游戏等这些事情充满了兴趣。但我并没有真正深入学习，比如没有去阅读威尔·斯托尔的《地位游戏》。

Well, you're a thinker. I mean, so when I mention this rock bridge, I mean, it's the visual I keep in mind when I'm trying to get into solid work or solid thinking or going on social media, like there's a narrow band of very useful things to learn and participate in. I think that... Infinity of bullshit that I'm inside. You know, numbing out or drama on either side, the fall to the death, little by little. But what I think is that because you are somebody who thinks deeply about human nature. I mean, I listened to your episode with Scott Galway, and I'm just saying this where they call glazing. I used to just call it kissing somebody's ass, so I'm not trying to kiss your ass because... But like this is... There's an awesome episode, and you're command of statistics and data and understanding your ability to frame it and remember that it's world class.

好，你是个深思熟虑的人。我的意思是，当我提到这个石桥时，它是我在努力从事扎实工作或深入思考时记住的一个视觉比喻，就像在浏览社交媒体时，会有一个非常狭窄的有用学习和参与的带子。我觉得……我置身于一片无穷无尽的杂乱中。你知道，两边都是麻木或戏剧化，逐渐地走向毁灭。但我认为因为你是一个对人性有深刻思考的人。你和Scott Galway的那期节目，我听过。而且我是在说这一点时，他们称之为吹捧。我过去就叫它拍马屁，但我并不是想拍你的马屁，因为……但这是……那期节目很棒，你对统计和数据的掌握、理解和将它们框架起来的能力真的是非常出色。

Thank you. And you do that through hard work, but also through life experience. So I do think that living a life in a way where you're collecting data, so to speak, and your understanding things is wonderful. But I guess what turned me off to this one particular drama in such a strong way was it's yet another example of something I've seen thousands of times before. There was no new learning for me there, except that humans are just being humans. And so at some level, at some point, the novelty of life, the excitement of life, the enriching parts of life are about new experiences. Sometimes it's about experiencing the same thing. I go, oh yeah, this is a general theme of me or of them or of life and understanding human nature.

谢谢。你通过努力工作和生活经验来实现这一点。我认为以一种“收集数据”和理解事物的方式生活是非常美好的。但让我对这部特定的电视剧感到厌烦的是，这又是一个我已经看过无数次的例子。我没有在其中学到新的东西，除了人类依然如故。在某种程度上，生活的新奇感、兴奋感和丰富性在于新的体验。有时，也是在体验同样的事情时，能够理解：“哦，是的，这是我的、他们的或者生活的一般主题”，并理解人性。

But at some point, you're like, this is just yet another drama on the school yard. This is just, this reminds me of, and it's sometimes useful to make the parallels. This is like in junior high school when someone so-and-so said something about so-and-so, and so you go, there's no new data. This would be like running, you know, I publish it some papers. I don't want to do those experiments again, because especially if I get the exact same result. Right? Now if I get a different result, that's different, but I've seen the same thing again. And so I think in order to develop a healthy relationship to social media, which is really a big slice of life now for many people of all agents.

但是到了某个时候，你会觉得，这只不过是学校操场上的又一场闹剧。这让我想起，以前在初中的时候，有人说了某人的闲话，结果就是这样，你没有得到新的信息。这就像是我发表了一些论文，但我不想再重复那些实验，因为特别是当我知道结果还是一样的话，对吧？当然，如果结果不同，那是另外一回事，但我已经看到过一样的情况。因此，我认为要想与社交媒体建立一种健康的关系，尤其是在很多不同年龄的人中，社交媒体已经成为生活的一大部分。

And to scale the tone you've been around for ten years. Right. I mean, I think you have to be extremely conscious of like when it got you and why. You know, I mean, you had a nightclub. You couldn't, you might have to respond to a catastrophe or something happening. Like you can enjoy yourself there too, but you were there to work. You were able to navigate that chaotic environment and get things done. Well, a good example of this, in a post-nut clarity after copulation, the devil's laughter can be heard, I think Shrophan Howard said that. An equivalent is post-content clarity.

为了表达这个意思，可以翻译成中文如下： "要把语气调节到你已经在这个领域待了十年的程度。对吧。我是说，我觉得你必须非常清楚地意识到这个环境在什么时候吸引了你，以及为什么吸引了你。你经营过一家夜总会，你可能需要应对一些紧急事件或突发情况。当然，你也可以在那里享受乐趣，但你的主要目的是工作。你能够在那种混乱的环境中工作并完成任务。一个很好的例子是，有人说过，在性交之后的清醒时刻，你可能会听到内心深处的嘲笑声。而在完成内容创作后的清醒时刻也是类似的。"

So after you've finished consuming a thing, how do you feel? Do you feel enlightened, hopeful, peaceful? Do you want to ring your mom and say that you miss her? Do you want to talk to your friends? Or do you feel like the world's out to get you? And that there's less than is needed for everybody. And you shouldn't really trust people. And you're a bit sort of tight and tense and your shoulders are up and there's a ringing in your ears.

那么，在你消化完某件事之后，你有什么感觉？你感到开悟、充满希望、内心平静吗？你是否想给妈妈打电话，告诉她你想念她？你想和朋友们聊聊天吗？还是你感到整个世界都在与你作对，资源紧缺，人人自保，不该轻易信任别人？你的身体是否有些紧绷，肩膀僵硬，耳边嗡嗡作响？

Well, here's my litmus test. After I spend a bit of time on social media, I ask myself later, do I remember anything from being on there? You know, the reflection was there any learning? Did I learn anything? Listen, I learned some things from your discussion with Scott. I so got a little bit more to go in the discussions. I don't quiz me on it just yet. But I intend to think about it.

好的，这是我的衡量标准。在社交媒体上花费一段时间后，我会问自己是否记得在上面看到的内容。也就是说，我会反思是否有任何学习收获？从你与Scott的讨论中，我确实学到了一些东西。我还有一些内容需要继续讨论，不过现在别考我，我打算好好思考一下。

In fact, this morning I went out for a run. I listened to a podcast of somebody that I'm not particularly big fan of, but I wanted to get their perspective. And I thought a bit about some of the things that you and Scott had discussed. And I was reflecting on it, right? Because it's that's learning. And that's the anti-forgetting process. I can't recall something I saw on social media yesterday that was very stimulating. But I watched that 60 minutes episode and it gave me some ideas and insights about what's going on in the world or what might not be going on in the world.

其实，今天早上我出去跑步的时候，听了一个我不是特别喜欢的人的播客，但我想了解一下他们的观点。我还想了一些你和Scott讨论过的话题。我在反思这些，因为这就是学习，这就是对抗遗忘的过程。我不太记得昨天在社交媒体上看到的那些刺激的内容，但我看了那期60分钟的节目，它给了我一些关于世界正在发生或可能没有发生的事情的想法和见解。

You know, thinking about your experiences is so critical to placing value on them, making them meaningful for you. What I'm not interested in is just an endless deluge of sensory input that goes nowhere, especially if it impedes other things. A little bit more reflection. 10 minutes, one minute, five seconds of just asking, did I remember anything? I want to do that again as opposed to just the infinite.

你知道，思考自己的经历对于赋予它们价值，使其对你有意义是非常重要的。我不想要的仅仅是无穷无尽的感官输入，而这些输入毫无结果，尤其是当它们阻碍到其他事情的时候。有一点点更多的反思，花10分钟、一分钟，甚至五秒钟，问问自己，我记得什么吗？我想要再次做那些事情，而不是陷入无尽的循环。

You mentioned, I think this is a fucking great take, the arc of something you get to introduce. There is excitement, there is reaction, there is criticism, and then usually acceptance, presuming that this thing is true or valid. Like creatine, right? It's been around forever. I was laughing so hard. I want to talk about it. So what do you think is the next frontier for public acceptance? Because I would say vitamin D3 was check. That's already done. It's gone through the cycle.

你提到的观点，我觉得非常赞，就是关于一种事物的引入过程。通常会经历兴奋、反应、批评，然后通常再被接受，前提是这件事物是真实或有效的。比如肌酸，对吧？它已经存在很长时间了。我当时笑得很厉害。我想谈谈这个话题。那你觉得下一个公众接受的前沿是什么？我觉得维生素D3已经被接受了，已经完成了这个循环。

We should actually plot this out. We should do a post together, which is, by the way, public careers follow the same trajectory. You show up, people are like, who's this person? Then it's like, oh, you're very exciting. Then there's always a, up, here's the flaw. And then there's a very simple equation as to whether or not they are going to continue and continue to have popularity. Very simple equation was the sort of event more useful or interesting than what they contribute.

我们应该把这个想法写出来。我们可以一起发个帖子，顺便说一下，公众职业生涯的轨迹也是这样的：刚开始出现时，人们会想，这人是谁啊？接着就会觉得，哇，你很有意思。然后总会有一个“哦，出现了缺陷”的时刻。接下来，是否能继续保持受欢迎，有一个非常简单的判断标准。这个标准就是，看他们的事件是否比他们的实际贡献更有用或更有趣。

And if the answer is, yeah, that was actually more exciting than any one thing they've ever said in terms of usefulness, then they're gone. That owned by the same. They fade out at different rates. Their half life and it disappears. But if what you're providing is useful if the person is, if they still, if people still want you around, so to speak, it outlives that.

如果答案是，确实，那比他们之前说过的任何一句话都有趣，那么他们就会被遗忘。这个事情属于同一种情况。它们会以不同的速度逐渐消失，它们的“半衰期”会到来，然后消失。但是，如果你提供的东西是有用的，如果人们仍然希望你“在场”，那么它的影响力就会持久得多。

I mean, this recent drama, I don't want to dance around it too much, but this recent drama, I was like, this is nothing could be more trivial or stupid, but I realize the reason it's probably, I'm not pretending this and I don't wish ill on anyone. But it's probably going to pseudo end the career of this online person is because it was much more interesting in its drama than any value add that they were given.

我的意思是，最近的这场闹剧，我不想拐弯抹角地说，这场闹剧让我觉得再没有比这更琐碎或愚蠢的事情了。但是我意识到，这可能会在某种程度上终结这个网络人物的职业生涯，原因是这场闹剧本身比他们提供的任何实际价值都要有趣得多。当然，我并不希望有人遭殃。

That's interesting. Yeah. And they projected a fair amount of arrogance in their delivery of content and thing. And if you do that, you're setting yourself up, right? That's a very, that's a big attractor early on. People like a, sort of, deserve a downfall of the person who's out of touch, 100%. Yeah, there's no coming back from that in a real way.

这很有趣。是的，他们在传递内容时表现出了相当大的傲慢。如果你这么做，其实就是在给自己挖坑。一开始这可能会很吸引人。但人们通常喜欢看到那种脱离现实的成功者遭遇挫折，毫无例外。是的，从真正意义上来说，这种情况是没有回头路的。

Okay. So vitamin D three, yeah, through the cycle, creatine is in the cycle, right? Creatine is a protein. So as a vitamin, I would say vitamin D came first then protein, right protein. And the protein thing is politicized a little bit too because there's something about meat that's considered right. Right. And then creatine, you know the reason that creatine I don't think is going to get politically coded is it's been so heavily pushed by women, for women, run to Patrick, a lot of like Kelly Levesque, if you know her, super hardcore female lead audience, it's important for women.

好的。所以维生素D3在这个循环中是存在的，而肌酸也是其中的一部分，对吧？肌酸是一种蛋白质。作为一种维生素，我认为维生素D在蛋白质之前出现，对吧，蛋白质。而蛋白质的事情有点被政治化了，因为有一些关于肉类的观点被认为是正确的。至于肌酸，我觉得它不会被政治化，因为它一直以来都由女性大力推广，像Patrick这样的人，还有很多像Kelly Levesque这样的人，她们的受众大多是女性，所以对女性来说很重要。

Despite the fact you're probably going to gain, you know, three pounds of weight. Water weight weight. You're going to, your scale's going to be heavy. Maybe you're going to look a little bit fluffier, but you can get rid of it by stopping it, right? It's, you know, it's like having a scale that's off. Like as soon as you, curves are in. Yeah, exactly. So one way in which things are not mimicking the 90s when everything was super wafer. I mean, I came up in the 90s when it was like the expectation on women was really excellent in the car. You know the environmental security hypothesis. Sit back. Let me give you this one.

尽管你可能会增加三磅的体重，都是水分而已。体重秤上的数字会变大，可能看起来会蓬松一些，但你可以通过停止这种情况来解决。就像体重秤不准一样，只要停下来就能恢复正常。现在的流行趋势也不再是像90年代那样追求极瘦。我是在90年代长大的，那时候对女性的身体期望非常严格。让我来解释一下“环境安全假说”，你可以放轻松地听我说。

So there is evidence to suggest that men prefer thicker women during times of economic downturn and thinner women during times of economic uplift. So if the study original study was done on students that were in halls of residence and they were eating at, you know, like dinner time together where we'll be provided by the halls of residence. And they showed men, images of women of varying sizes before they ate and after they ate multiple iterations all over the place. Before men ate, they preferred the bigger women after men ate. They prefer the thinner women and you can track the general turnage interpretation. Yes, yes, yes.

有证据表明，男性在经济不景气时更偏爱丰满的女性，而在经济繁荣时则更倾向于瘦一点的女性。研究是在宿舍里的学生中进行的，他们通常在固定的时间一起用餐，食物由宿舍提供。研究中展示给男性不同体型女性的图像，在用餐前和用餐后进行了多次对比。结果显示，在用餐前，男性更偏好体型较大的女性，而用餐后，他们更倾向于选择较瘦的女性。这一定程度上反映了人们对经济形势变化的感知和解读。

You can track the sort of public popularity of body size, not shape, waist to hip ratio, always remains the same typically. But of body size overall to how the economy is doing. It's called the environmental security hypothesis. Basically the human behavioral ecology stuff. Mac and Murphy taught me about this University of Melbourne. He's brilliant. He's out of Candice Blake's lab. And what it seems is happening is if you feel secure in your environment, you are not queuing for a mate or well she can survive a tough time of a famine because times aren't that tough. Resources are abundant. Therefore I don't need a woman who can signal that she can get extra calories and is more sort of metabolically well reserved.

你可以观察到，身体大小（而不是形状，例如腰臀比通常保持不变）的流行趋势可以反映经济状况。这被称为环境安全假说，基本上是关于人类行为生态学的内容。这是我在墨尔本大学从Mac和Murphy那里学到的，他们非常优秀，是来自Candice Blake的实验室。这个假设表明，如果你感到环境安全，你就不需要找一个在艰难时期能生存下来的伴侣，因为此时资源充足。因此，你无需寻找一个能够证明她能获得更多热量、代谢储备更好的人。

You might be able to say the opposite is also true. And this tracks the economy tracks with the preference of body size. I love your command of this literature. It's awesome. I mean I just remember the 90s being a time of very like wavy models. Because I was it came up through the skateboarding thing. You know when I departed from biology before I went back to it. And our I mean they had models like Kate Moss who are extremely thin and then. And actually in friends of ours who were skateboarders in New York like in Washington Square Park our friend Peter BC.

你可以说相反的情况也是如此。这和经济走向与身体大小的偏好有关。我很喜欢你对这类文学作品的掌握，真是太棒了。我记得90年代是流行纤瘦模特的时代。因为我那个时候是在滑板圈子成长起来的。在我离开生物学领域之前，后来我又回到了这个领域。那个时候，我们有像凯特·摩斯这样极瘦的模特。实际上，我们在纽约有些朋友是滑板爱好者，比如在华盛顿广场公园的朋友彼得·BC。

Was kind of discovered in New York and ended up in Calvin Klein ads. You know like skinny skateboarder. Right. I mean it. He became a firefighter. So now he's like he's jacked appears still round. It's a super good guy. But and they and really into his health now. So we can kind of chuckle about the fact that like in the 90s like that was the look. It was the Kurt Cobain look and as that whole thing. Yeah. And the larger guys are like you know it was it wasn't Mark Walbert back then it was Marky Mark and the funky bunch. Remember and he was in the Calvin Klein ads with Kate Moss. Look at his eyes.

在纽约被发现，最终出演了Calvin Klein的广告。你知道，就是那种瘦瘦的滑板少年。对，我是认真的。他后来成了一名消防员。所以现在他身材健硕，还是个非常好的人。而且他现在非常注重健康。所以我们可以开玩笑说，在90年代，那种风格就是流行，那是Kurt Cobain的风格，还有其他类似的风格。而那些体型更大的人，当时不像现在的Mark Walberg，而是Marky Mark和他的乐队。还记得吗，他和Kate Moss一起出现在Calvin Klein的广告中。看看他的眼睛。

And he was and well he was pretty built then by by those stairs. So but now compared to the sort of typical sort of expectation of of muscularity and in man. A big flation thing is huge. You watch biggest stronger faster. Mark Bells thing. Oh yeah. That's a great movie. Yeah. Watch it sometime ago. Yeah. It's 20 2007. I think anyway. So D3. Yeah. Protein. Right. Creatine. Creatines in it. Creatines made the cut. Although I think because it's a powder and they're trying to put in gummies and they the flavored versions are really the flavored momentous version.

他曾经身材非常健硕，尤其是在那些楼梯旁。不过，现在他相比于一般的对男性肌肉的期望来讲就显得不那么出众了。这种对大块头的追求特别明显。你可以看看《更大更强更快》这部电影，是马克·贝尔的作品。哦，对，那是部好电影。可以找时间看看。是2007年的。我想是的。所以，D3，蛋白质，对吧。肌酸也一直被大家重视。尽管它是粉末状，但他们尝试把它做成软糖，当然那些有特别口味的版本非常受欢迎。

By the way, awesome. I always had a little pastel thing. Right. It's like a chewable tastes like sweet tarts. It tastes too good. They've just. Yeah. Jeff sent me. In fact, I had a little. Yeah. Creatine. Right. With one gram of like a one gram problem is I so I I've been taking creatines since I was probably 15 16. I do a I actually do the loading thing where I take like 30 40 grams a day for a week. And then cut back to 10 grams a day. And then I do a washout every 16 weeks or so where I stop taking it completely.

顺便说一下，真棒。我一直对一些淡彩的东西有点兴趣。对吧。这就像是一种嚼劲十足的小糖果，尝起来像甜塔糖，味道太好了。他们刚给我寄了些。其实，我有一点...对，肌酸。对吧，有一克的肌酸。问题是我差不多从15、16岁开始就一直在服用肌酸。我实际上会做那个加载阶段，就是每天摄取30到40克，持续一周，然后减到每天10克。大约每16周我会进行一次清除阶段，完全停用一段时间。

I know this is very conventional for a week. And you drop some weight. It's actually interesting to see how much strength you hold on to in that. This is what I am without the assistance of 10 grams of creatine. I just do it for me. I don't. Well, look, you're talking to the school of fucking Mike Mensa. You're all right. So what's what's next? What do you think? Magnesium. Okay. Magnesium three and eight are biscliscinate. I know there are multiple forms. You know, you mallet for soreness, you know, et cetera. It's a citrus. It's a laxative. You know, I would say.

我知道这对于一周来说很传统。而且你减掉了一些体重。其实很有趣的是在这个过程中你能保持多少力量。这就是我在没有10克肌酸的辅助下的状态。我这样做只是为了我自己。我不这么认为。好吧，你是在跟麦克·孟策的流派谈话。你没问题的。那接下来呢？你怎么看？镁元素。好的，镁有三种形式或双甘氨酸。我知道镁有多种形式。你可能用苹果酸镁来缓解酸痛，等等。它是柑橘类的，也是一种泻药。我会这么说。

But biscliscinated and three and eight across the blood, bring very more readily. I would say pre-sleep, you know, 30, 60 minutes before sleep. But you know, I had our chair of auto layering. and golly, he had an exergery at Stanford. Okay. Came on my podcast. Obviously says the hearing system. And she said that magnesium is protective against hearing loss. First of all, hearing loss low level hearing loss is associated with dementia less sensory input. Okay. Deaf people can be obviously very cognitively strong, but they have other ways of bringing in sensory input. But partial hearing loss strongly correlated with dementia. Hearing loss very common after concerts in industrial workers, things like that. Magnesium protects against hearing loss.

翻译如下：但是，当血液中浓度升至三倍和八倍时，更容易起效。我会建议在睡前30至60分钟摄入。我的播客上有一位来自斯坦福的客人，他专门研究自动分层。他提到，镁元素对听力损失有保护作用。首先，听力损失，尤其是轻度的听力损失，与痴呆症相关，因为这涉及到感觉输入的减少。显然，失聪的人也可以在认知上非常强大，但他们有其他方式来获取感觉输入。然而，部分听力损失与痴呆症有很强的相关性。听力损失在音乐会结束后和工业工人中非常常见，而镁元素可以保护听力不受损害。

Why the endolymph in which the hair cells that vibrate in response to sound that that endolymph is like a thick kind of fluid viscous fluid is magnesium is a prominent feature of that endolymph. And it gets depleted by very loud sound to some extent, but encouraging more magnesium in the endolymph is protective against hair, hair cell loss, which is hearing loss, which is permanent, even though it's low level it accumulates over time. So magnesium, magnesium for cognition, magnesium for sleep, the whole argument that there's less magnesium in the soil nowadays because the way farming is done has just been depleted.

毛细胞所在的内淋巴是一种黏稠的液体，含有丰富的镁。强烈的声音会在一定程度上消耗内淋巴中的镁，但补充镁可以保护毛细胞免于受损，即防止听力下降。虽然这种听力损失是低级别的，但会随着时间的推移逐渐累积并且是永久性的。此外，镁在认知和睡眠方面也有益。由于现代耕作方式，土壤中的镁含量减少了，这也是人们关注的问题。

So you can get less of it. So you're a viral and the bio. Yeah, your kale of yesterday is not your kale of today, so to speak. So I think magnesium supplementation is going to go through a wave of like, eh, they're just talking about that like Chris and Andrew talking about them podcasts is rosy. Then it's going to show up. Oh, wow, like, you know, we've got the, you know, chair of auto learning, gollyhead and next surgery, Stanford talking about magnesium supplementation to offset things like tinnitus, maybe a bit, but also protect against hearing loss, etc, etc. It's going to be like magnesium. Everyone should be taking magnesium.

所以你可以减少它。所以你是个网红和生物的结合体。可以这么说，昨天的羽衣甘蓝和今天的羽衣甘蓝已经不一样了。所以我认为镁补充剂将会经历一个这样的趋势：一开始大家可能觉得，“哎，他们在播客里谈论的那些东西也不过如此”，但随后它会逐渐引起大家的关注。比如，我们在斯坦福的自动学习和颈部外科主席也会谈论镁补充剂的好处，比如稍微减轻耳鸣，甚至保护听力等等。会变成像这样：“每个人都应该补充镁。”

And then you know what will happen. So I can just over blow. You know, it's only an 11% difference in this population, etc, etc. I think this is one moment we're revisiting just very briefly the data on alcohol is worthwhile. It's been so many years of alcohol is into problem. Then alcohol is actually good for you. One or two drinks and eyes, all as it's red wine, then it's bad for you. And then recently it was no, it's actually not that bad for you. And then now finally, Stanford, Keith Humphreys and colleagues at Stanford did an analysis of all those previous papers and essentially found that the control groups in those studies that concluded moderate drinking is good for you were completely off.

然后你知道会发生什么。所以我可以稍微夸大一些。你知道，这个人群中只有11%的差别，等等。我认为此刻我们非常简要地重新审视关于酒精的数据是值得的。多年来，人们一直在说酒精有问题，然后又说酒精对你有好处，喝一两杯特别是红酒对身体有益，后来又说对你有害。然后最近又说，其实对你没那么糟糕。现在，斯坦福大学的Keith Humphreys和他的同事对所有这些以前的研究进行了分析，基本上发现那些得出适量饮酒对你有好处结论的研究中的对照组数据是完全错误的。

They were comparing sick people to less sick people in one case. And it turns out that when you when you normalize for the for proper controls and you look at all the studies, you do the meta analyses without fail. Zero is better than any one or two per week. You're probably fine. Still do all the things that you're supposed to to promote your health moderate drinking is bad for you in terms of elevated cancer risk. Certainly disrupting sleep and microbiome and a bunch of other things that aren't good. If you want to drink drink, but we are now landed squarely in zero is better than any. And those are my data, those are data from the best people for analyzing the large scale studies, the smaller studies across the board and that I can refer you to the analysis of the analysis.

他们在一个研究案例中比较了病情重和病情较轻的病人。结果发现，当你对数据进行标准化处理和适当对照，再查看所有研究并进行综合分析时，无一例外地发现，完全不喝酒比每周喝一到两次要好。尽管如此，你仍然可以做一些有益健康的事情。然而，适量饮酒其实对健康不利，比如会增加患癌症的风险、扰乱睡眠和破坏肠道微生物环境等。如果你想喝酒，那就喝吧，但现在的结论是完全不喝酒比喝酒要好。这不是我的研究数据，而是来自分析大型和小型研究的顶尖专家的数据，我可以提供这些分析的参考资料。

That's quite solid. That's a article that Lancet study from what 2016 17 so I the reason that my company in the UK is called six months so limited is because the first thing that I ever did before even launched the podcast was I was like elective sobriety as somebody who didn't have a drinking problem was so fucking beneficial to me as a productivity strategy as a guy in his twenties that because northeast of the UK club promoter stopping drinking was fucking revolutionary a decade ago. Like what did oh my god like he's crazy. It's like the you know Brian Johnson fucking penis injection to like the Ben Greenfield crazy.

这段话的中文翻译如下：这真的是相当可靠。这是一篇2016或2017年《柳叶刀》研究的文章。我在英国的公司名为Six Months So Limited的原因是，在我甚至开播播客之前，作为一个没有酗酒问题的人，我就觉得选择性戒酒对我来说在生产力方面极其有益。当时身处英国东北部的俱乐部推销员，十年前停止饮酒对我来说简直是革命性的。那时候大家都觉得我疯了，就像是Brian Johnson的阴茎注射或者Ben Greenfield的疯狂举动一样。

Yeah, yeah, it's like oh my god why you doing this thing now you know low and no is very sort of comment. And I was like I want to get other people to do this I think that'll be cool and I was like if I can teach people to go sober for six months that will be fucking sick. And instead of registering it as like modern wisdom limited before I did modern wisdom I was like I'll do so I'll do six months sober and like I'll teach people that this is like real good for them. And I was I want to one coached four people through I think six months of it to like test whether or not my approach had done it was daily coaching and people would follow this course and do all the rest of it.

好的，好的，就是那种“天哪，你现在为什么要做这件事，你知道清醒戒酒是一种很普遍的评论。”然后我想让其他人也来做这个，我觉得这会很酷。我想着如果能教会别人保持六个月的清醒，那就太棒了。于是，我没有在进行“现代智慧”前，把它注册为现代智慧有限公司，而是决定做一个六个月的戒酒计划，教大家这对他们真的很好。我一对一地辅导了四个人，大约六个月，测试我的方法是否有效。这包括每日的辅导课程，参与者会跟随课程完成所有的内容。

But yeah that Lancet thing was like the my foundational scientific justification but it's like okay these are all of the reasons that the outcome is good as you said it's like just do the thing and see if you feel better like do you know show it capping by 90 minutes and tell me if you don't have a crash later that day like easy experiment. I don't need to explain to you the mechanism if you can get the outcome that you're looking for the same thing is I learned from you what is it a low commotion with lateral I movement on a morning walk down regulates anxiety big time I not if you're looking at your phone I'd been doing that I'd been doing morning walk thing from maybe Mark Bell's like post brand deal thing for as long as I can remember right like it might say an effort in big.

这个Lancet的研究是我科学依据的基础，但就像你说的，好好实践，然后看看是否感觉更好，比如让你只睡90分钟，然后告诉我那天晚些时候是否不会感到崩溃。这是个简单的实验。我不需要为你解释机制，如果你能得到你想要的结果。同样，我从你那学到，早上散步时如果不看手机，结合左右眼运动，可以大大降低焦虑。我已经做早上散步的事情很久了，可能是因为Mark Bell的某个广告宣传。

My total like obsessive bro hero when I had this ridiculously convoluted morning routine which like escape velocity me out of being the adult infant I was as a club promoter in like I'll do meditation and blood a gratitude and all the rest of shit. And I was like if I wake up and I'm on the wrong side of the bed and I go for a walk and I come back like. Shit doesn't feel as hard as it did before so I didn't need you to tell me that it's because of the locomotion and the passage of stuff moving past you as your focal point stays the same in the lateral I movement down right.

翻译：我以前是个超级迷恋晨间例行的人，好像要逃离自己那段当俱乐部推广员时像成年人婴儿的生活。当时我会做冥想、感恩练习等等一堆事情。我觉得，如果我醒来时状态不好，出门走走，再回来时生活就感觉没那么难了。所以我不需要你告诉我这是因为走动时物体在你身边移动，而你的焦点保持不变的缘故。

I'm like it great I know the mechanism is you said early on because it sort of justifies the buy-in I have to sort of odd kind of investment and I'm almost more the fact that I found it myself then it gets justified by the science I'm like fucking yes like I well I think there's an interaction there look I am the placebo effect is very real the mechanism underlying what you're describing also very real independent placebo effect I think that what I'm referring to is the buy-in of people understanding a bit of underlying mechanism for the things that clearly work do you need to understand that there are three forms of.

这段话可以翻译成中文为：我觉得这真的很棒，我知道你之前提到的机制，因为这在某种程度上证明了我进行的这种奇怪的投资是有价值的。我几乎更满意的是我自己发现了这个东西，然后科学又对它进行了验证。我是觉得，哇，这太好了。我认为这里面确实有一个互动。我相信安慰剂效应是非常真实的，而你描述的机制也是非常真实的，不依赖于安慰剂效应。我所指的是，人们若能理解那些显然有效的事情背后的机制，就会更愿意接受这种说法。你需要了解，有三种形式的……

A stimulus for hypertrophy damage to the muscle I put the trophy yeah do you need to know but can it inform better choices about training yes do you need to understand what those are in order to. To grow a particular muscle group no but if you understand a bit of what's up likely happening under the hood it affords you tremendous flexibility it's also. I also believe that knowledge and gaining knowledge not only learning but learning and doing is what humans thrive on I believe in the pursuit of knowledge and learning I mean a lot of my podcast content like I'd love to tell you the protocol for this but it's actually just really having cool and if you don't think it's cool that's okay yeah.

一种促进肌肉生长的方法是对肌肉施加刺激。这可能看起来复杂，但确实有助于优化训练选择。你不用完全理解所有细节就可以锻炼特定的肌肉群，但如果你对背后的原理有一定了解，会给予你很大的灵活性。我相信知识的获取与应用不仅仅是学习，还包括实践，这是人类不断进步的关键。我推崇追求知识与学习的过程。我在播客中也常提到这些，虽然我很想直接告诉你具体的方法，但其实更重要的是对这些知识感到兴奋。如果你不这么认为，也没关系。

But just like you know it's worse you do your essentials thing right which is kind of the stripped back protocols only high the dilute critical science protocols only but what you'll find is that people who do the buy-in of learning a little bit about how something works hopefully they learn something about cortisol and sunlight and these kinds of things it starts to make sense as to why you actually feel better when you feel more energized. It's not a placebo effect. What you're explaining is why it's not a placebo effect. That's a good, so you get more buy-in.

但就像你知道情况更糟糕一样，你尽量按照基本的规定去做，这就像是只关注关键的科学原则。但是，你会发现那些学习了一些关于事物工作原理的人，比如了解一些关于皮质醇和阳光的知识，他们会开始明白为什么当你感到更有活力时，实际上会感觉更好。这不是一个安慰剂效应。你所解释的就是为什么这不是安慰剂效应。这很好，因为这样能让更多人接受。

What I think is, for me, is cool. And you said it earlier on is, if you know why this thing works, you can be a little bit more robust and flexible with how your strategy goes. You're not just do this thing. If you don't know why you do the thing, or what the mechanism is, even at a very basic level, as soon as you don't do that precise thing, you have no fucking idea what you're doing. Or when things don't seem to go so right. So for instance, if you exercise late in the day, and then the next morning, you're like, I'm feeling sluggish, like, is there something? No, actually, you had a cortisol bump last night.

我认为，对我来说，这是很酷的一点。就像你之前提到的，如果你知道某件事为什么有效，你在调整策略时就可以更加稳妥和灵活，而不仅仅是机械地做某件事。如果你不知道为什么要做这件事，或者连最基本的机制都不清楚的话，一旦偏离了原来的做法，就完全不知道该怎么做了，尤其是当事情看起来不太顺利的时候。比如说，如果你晚上锻炼，第二天早上感觉很疲惫，那可能并不是别的问题，而是因为昨晚你的皮质醇水平上升了。

It's a negative feedback loop. Your cortisol is naturally suppressed. Get a bit more sunlight. The mechanism, excuse me, the protocol starts to bridge together. What to do in case A, B, C, or D, because you understand the principle below it, which is cortisol at one time impacts cortisol at another time through this thing called the negative feedback loop. Well, Josh weight skin, the great Josh weight skin of, you know, I love that episode between, dude, I think I... You guys should sit down and have a conversation. Had to text you about it. I was like, this guy, you know, me and George, my house mate, like, have obsessed over Josh, the art of learning.

这是一个负反馈环路。你的皮质醇自然被抑制。多晒点太阳。这个机制，抱歉，这个方案开始有了连接。因为你理解了皮质醇在某一时间对另一时间的影响这个基本原理，所以在遇到情况A、B、C或D时知道该如何处理。乔什·韦茨金，伟大的乔什·韦茨金，你知道，我非常喜欢那一集，我觉得……你们应该坐下来好好谈谈。我还发短信给你说起他。我和我的室友乔治对乔什和他的学习艺术非常着迷。

He's got another book in progress. I'm gonna connect you guys, because you guys would hit it off. I fucking love it. So well, he comes to the States pretty often. He lives out of... Oh, sorry, yeah. Yeah, he moved down to the jungle at one point. But he talks about knowing, like, the principles below the principles, or underneath the principles. So the principles underneath the principles, and then being a practitioner as well of some of those principles. right? And then being connected to people in your field and related fields that deeply understand a stack of principles as well. That's what expertise really is. And this is why, and I'm not taking a dig at doctors, but this is why, listen, recent, I had a weird medical thing. I took a new prescription drug, as somebody said, then I had what I thought was a vestibular thing turns out it was low blood pressure. It was diagnosed in one moment by a superb physician by that afternoon I was fine, but I could have just chased, gone down the rabbit hole. I was getting all sorts of crazy suggestions about what to do.

他有另一本书正在创作中。我打算把你们介绍一下，因为我觉得你们会很聊得来。我真的很喜欢这个想法。所以，他经常来美国。他之前住在……哦，对不起，他曾经搬到丛林中生活过。他讲的是了解原则背后的原则，或是隐藏在原则之下的东西。也就是说，那些原则之下的原则，然后作为这些原则的践行者，对吧？然后再与您所在领域及相关领域中同样深刻理解这些复合原则的人建立联系。这才是真正的专业素养。这也是为什么——我不是在说医生的坏话——但最近我遇到一个奇怪的医学问题。我服用了一种新的处方药，有人说是，我以为是前庭问题，结果发现是低血压。一位非常优秀的医生瞬间就诊断出来了，下午我就没事了，但我本可以陷入混乱中。那时我收到各种关于该如何做的稀奇古怪建议。

Look, just like they say in music, sport, I'll say it for podcasting and in medicine and science. There are levels to this shit. Some people are way better because they have principles understood and underneath those principles are understood underneath. They understand how they connect up and connect down and they know people. It's one thing for a physician to say, this will handle your cholesterol, but more often than not, what a physician in one siloed aspect of medicine will suggest will create a side effect that will create a job someday for another physician in a different silo. And it's just the way the training is done. And Faganbaum would say this is also the way that drugs are categorized. This drug is for this and this and this. And therefore nothing else. And he said, wait, no, that drug could potentially cure or treat many other things. And so he's exploring that in a serious way. And getting results, curing disease, literally.

看，就像他们在音乐和体育中说的那样，我也要说播客、医学和科学领域。里面有不同的层次。有些人表现更好，因为他们掌握了基本原则，并且深入理解这些原则背后的联系。他们知道如何上下贯通，并且他们懂得与人交往。医生可能会说，“这会控制你的胆固醇”，但医生在一个孤立的医疗领域所建议的治疗，往往会产生副作用，这副作用将来可能会为另一个领域的医生带来工作机会。这就是培训的方式。Faganbaum会说，这也是药物分类的方式。这种药是针对这个、这个和这个，除此之外不作他用。但他认为，其实这种药可能还可以治疗其他很多疾病。因此，他认真地在这一领域进行探索，并取得了一些成果，甚至治愈了一些疾病。

So I think it's not to say that people with degrees are idiots. It's that, let's hope not, all right? I spent a lot of time getting degrees. It's that just having degrees in some cases, not always are necessary, but not sufficient. But most what is absolutely necessary and sufficient is to understand the major principles, the principles below those and how those connect and then to be able to contact people and to talk to people and to be a practitioner. Like it's very clear to me that you're training as a nightclub owner informed you so strongly about human nature, also about biology. It's not just because you were staying up late and sleeping into the day, but those the themes of what you experienced and learned are carried forward in the themes of every discussion that you have. And that's what being a real expert is.

我并不是说有学位的人就是蠢材。希望不是这样，对吧？我自己也花了很多时间去拿学位。不过，有时候拥有学位并不总是必要的，也不一定足够。更重要的是，绝对必须而且足够的，是理解主要原理、其背后的原理，以及这些原理之间的联系。还能与人沟通、交流并实践应用。比如说，你作为夜总会老板的经历让我非常清楚地看到，它让你对人性以及生物学有了深刻的理解。这不仅仅是因为你熬夜到很晚然后睡懒觉，而是因为你所经历和学到的主题，在你每次的讨论中都得到了体现。而这正是真正专家所具备的素养。

This is why Derek from More Plates More Dates love him. The first time I saw, I was like, what's his guy's credentials? The guy's credentials are, he's an actual expert, a true intellectual and a true expert practitioner. Understand something at every level of brain. He is an expert. And Derek is a really good example. Great example of like sufficient, necessary, but not sufficient. Given that he's outside of academia, like he's not doing. The academics are now going to him. Yeah. And watch Peter Etier, who's a physician trained at Stanford and Johns Hopkins asking Derek about hormone. And like, homing each other, holding each other around. Yeah, and Peter's a super smart guy. And he has his expertise. And so what you saw there was people who have different stacks of principles connecting. It's so cool, right?

这就是为什么More Plates More Dates的Derek喜欢他。我第一次看到他时，就想：“他的资历是什么？”他的资历是，他是一个真正的专家，一个真正的知识分子和实践专家。在大脑的每个层面上都有深刻的理解。他是个专家。Derek是一个很好的例子，一个关于“必要而不充分”的极佳示例。尽管他不在学术界，但现在学术界的人都去找他看看。而看Peter Etier，他是毕业于斯坦福和约翰霍普金斯的医生，向Derek询问关于激素的问题，相互探讨和交流。是的，Peter是个非常聪明的人，并且在他的领域也有专长。你看到的就是拥有不同原则体系的人们在互相连接。很酷，对吧？

All right, I gotta ask you this. You mentioned protein kind of the, or at least it's vitamin D creatine, vitamin D protein creatine. I think it's gonna be magnesium. But what about diet? And if I was to put my little bat down, from what I'm, the whispers is Rick Rubin would say that I'm hearing fiber, I think, like the push toward fiber, because it's kind of been the forgotten element of diet. I think that that I'm beginning to hear an awful lot more about that. I think in a nuanced way, I hope, because here's the deal. I had Mike Snyder, our former chair, or maybe still current chair of genetics at Stanford. He talked about blood sugar regulation, incredibly smart guys, really into biomarkers. And he's almost 80. You gotta look at it. He looks like he's like 55. Incredible, incredible health.

好的，我得问你这个问题。你提到了蛋白质，或者至少是维生素D、肌酸和镁。但是饮食呢？如果我要说出来，我听到的一些小道消息，就像Rick Rubin会说的那样，我觉得现在人们越来越关注纤维，因为它在饮食中有点被遗忘了。我注意到这种关于纤维的重要性被越来越多地提及。我希望这是以一种细致入微的方式，因为你看，Mike Snyder，我们斯坦福的遗传学前任或现任主席，他谈过血糖调节。他是一个非常聪明的人，特别关注生物标志物。他快80岁了，但你看他，像是55岁。健康状况令人难以置信。

And he and I were discussing that fiber, certain forms of fiber, cause inflammation in some people. Well, while a lot of people say they can't eat a lot of vegetables in this kind of thing, some fibers inflame the gut and body of certain people. Other fibers do the opposite. Justin Sonnenberg and Christopher Gardner, Ranna study looking at low sugar fermented foods versus fiber effect on the gut microbiome. The outcome is very clear. Eating low sugar fermented foods decreases the, so-called, inflamatome, they call it as opposed a genome, etc. proteome. Okay. So reduces inflammation, body-wide. So eat low sugar fermented foods. Sour-crout, the brine, kimchi, beer doesn't quite count. Tefia. What's that? Tefia. Tefia. People can pick their favorite ones. I'm not a big kimchi fan only because it's cut to coarse. If they would shred it, I would like it, but it's like, I have a hard time chewing it.

他和我在讨论某些纤维会导致某些人出现炎症。虽然很多人说他们不能吃太多这种东西的蔬菜，但一些纤维会使某些人的肠道和身体发炎。而其他纤维则有相反的效果。Justin Sonnenberg 和 Christopher Gardner 进行了一项 Ranna 研究，比较低糖发酵食品和纤维对肠道微生物群的影响。结果非常明确。食用低糖发酵食品可以降低全身的炎症水平。他们称其为“炎症组”，而不是基因组、蛋白质组等等。因此，食用低糖发酵食品可以减少身体的炎症。酸菜、泡菜、啤酒不太算，还有一种叫做 Tefia 的东西也可以考虑。人们可以选择自己喜欢的食品。我不太喜欢泡菜，因为它切得太粗，如果能切得更细，我可能会喜欢，但我咀嚼起来有点困难。

To kefia's, kefia's the hack for this. Kefia was great. I love the full Bulgarian yogurt. I, listen, I love Greek food, but Bulgarian yogurt makes, makes, a Greek Bulgarian supremacist when it comes to the yogurt world. Very good. Well, you call me Bulgarian supremacist, isn't it? Yeah. The Bulgarian people seem like very nice to be overknown a few. But the point was that it, low sugar fermented foods reduce inflammation. They support the gut microbiome in a major way. The fiber group was divided. Some people who intentionally ingested more fiber had reduced, so-called, the inflammatory tone markers, inflammation, and they looked at a lot of markers. The other half had greatly increased inflammation.

对于Kefia的，Kefia对此有破解之法。Kefia太棒了。我喜欢全脂保加利亚酸奶。听着，我喜欢希腊食物，但在酸奶的世界里，保加利亚酸奶让我成为一个希腊和保加利亚酸奶的至上主义者。非常好。你称我为保加利亚至上主义者，不是吗？是的。我认识的为数不多的保加利亚人看起来都非常友好。但重点是，低糖发酵食品可以减少炎症。它们在很大程度上支持肠道微生物群。研究中，纤维摄入组进行了分组。一些有意摄入更多纤维的人，其所谓的炎症标志物减少，而他们查看了许多指标。另一半的人则炎症显著增加。

This is why I think people like Paul Saladino forgive me, what was the original carnivore MD? Big guy. Forgive me. He's been on Rogan. He's big jack, dude. Fuck, he could be anybody. He's just always eating a steak. Okay. Oh, forgive me. Fuck, okay. Okay. Anyway, shout out to him. I think, I think, Sean Baker. Dr. Sean Baker. Will they talk about vegetables causing inflammation? I think some people do experience inflammation for vegetables. I think, so I think fiber is going to make a big comeback, but we're going to have to discern between what and Mike Snyder really understands as best. Certain types of fiber are going to help people and harm others, harm in the gentle sense, increase inflammation, which could be severe for some people autoimmune conditions, et cetera.

这就是为什么我认为像保罗·萨拉迪诺这样的人——请原谅我，这个最初的“食肉医生”是什么？大块头。请原谅我。他曾上过罗根的节目。他是一个肌肉发达的人。天啊，他看起来像任何人。他总是吃牛排。好的，请原谅我。好的。总之，向他致意。我想，我想肖恩·贝克，肖恩·贝克医生，他们会讨论蔬菜引起的炎症吗？我想有些人确实因蔬菜而出现炎症。所以我认为纤维可能会重新受到关注，但我们需要辨别什么纤维是迈克·斯奈德充分理解的，某些类型的纤维会帮助一些人，而对另一些人有害，以温和的方式增加对那些可能有自体免疫病等的人来说可能是严重的炎症。

Other forms of fiber are going to be beneficial. I don't think there are any specific forms of fiber that everyone is going to tolerate well. So this is going to be an issue if fiber is the next thing. I do think fiber is critical. I eat sour crowd every day. I drink the brine off the sour crowd. I actually drink the brine then I put water back in it, add some salt, put it back in the fridge because I just like that after I go for a run and work out. It's just delicious, right? It's delicious. And also if you go buy these fermented brines as a product, they're outrageously expensive. And you're supposed to have like this much. Okay, I'm a grown man. I'm not going to have this much of anything. Okay, certainly not food or drink.

其他形式的纤维对健康也有好处。我不认为有哪种特定的纤维会适合所有人，所以如果纤维成分成为下一个热点，这可能会是一个问题。不过，我确实认为纤维非常重要。我每天都吃酸菜，也喝酸菜的卤汁。我通常在喝完卤汁后，再加些水和盐，然后放回冰箱。因为我喜欢在跑步和锻炼后享用它，味道真的很好！而且，如果你去买那些发酵的卤汁产品，价格贵得离谱，而且他们建议你只喝一点点。拜托，我是个成年人，怎么可能只吃或喝那么一点呢，尤其不是对食物或饮料！

It's something that I'm not going to have like a thimbles full of brine. It's like, no, I want to drink the whole thing. Like, come on. So, you know, and it greatly supports the gut and the healthy bacteria thrive in that environment. So yes, I think this is the way it's going to go. If I were to say, okay, like what other things? We didn't talk about melatonin, which I'm not a huge fan of as you know, but melatonin had a run a long time ago. It was like a hormone in a supplement form and people were just downing this stuff. It's amazing it ever broke through. You can get 50 milligram, 20 milligrams. It's crazy. And people will fight me all day on this and I'll fight right back until they quit because they're amazing animal data showing that it can suppress the hypothelamic gonad axis.

这就像，我是不会只喝一点点盐水的。我是想痛痛快快地喝完它。你懂的，因为它非常有益于肠道健康，健康的细菌在这种环境中茁壮成长。所以，我认为这就是发展趋势。至于其他方面，我们还没有谈到褪黑激素，我个人并不是很喜欢它，但它在很久以前曾经风靡一时。它作为一种激素补充剂出现，人们都疯狂地服用这东西。令人惊讶的是，它竟然能流行起来。甚至有50毫克、20毫克这样的剂量，这很疯狂。人们会一直跟我争论这件事，而我会一直争论下去，直到他们放弃。因为有非常了不起的动物实验证据显示，它可以抑制丘脑下部的性腺轴。

Like it doesn't delay puberty. Yes, yes. And it's also true that there's melatonin in all the cells of your body that are not light, that are not suppressed by light by rather stimulated by light axis in antioxidant. You don't want to be taking large amounts of melatonin in supplement form. Maybe a tiny bit every once in a while. I was told a little recently that after a flight a five milligram dose of melatonin was good. And I was like, what? What? Yeah, it's fucking tons because one milligram is like pretty much bottom of the U of effectiveness, right? And then you get over into more like fuckery going on. And I'm like five milligrams Y. And that was the reason. Oh, well, you've been exposed when you're flying typically. You've been in a little bit of a dangerous environment, inflammation, anti-oxidant.

就像它不会延迟青春期发育，是的，是的。而且确实你体内所有不受光抑制、反而受光激发的细胞中都存在褪黑素，它是一种抗氧化剂。你不想大量服用褪黑素补充剂。也许偶尔吃一点点。最近有人告诉我，在飞行之后，服用5毫克褪黑素是有好处的，我当时很惊讶。五毫克？开什么玩笑！因为一毫克的效果几乎已经是有效性的最低点，再往上就可能会有一些不正规的效果出现。所以我不明白为什么会是五毫克。理由是，在飞行过程中，你通常会暴露在一个有些危险的环境中，可能会产生炎症，因此需要抗氧化剂。

I'm like, is melatonin like the tip of the spear of the antioxidant world? I mean, it's a player. I mean, as long as we're on this, I think that something that's not a supplement but there's likely going to, and hopefully going to be in the main frame of discussion, is that it's clear that long wavelength light, red light from sunlight, infrared, near infrared light is beneficial for us, right? It's low energy, but it can pass into our body. It does support mitochondrial health. It charges the mitochondria. I recently learned that the water surrounding the mitochondria actually absorbed the red light, the same way the ocean absorbs red light, and that's why the ocean of the blue reflects blue. We're like little mini oceans.

我在想，褪黑素是不是抗氧化世界中的先锋？我觉得它确实占有一席之地。在这一话题下，我认为有一点需要我们关注，不是关于补充剂的，而是应该成为讨论重点的，那就是显而易见的是，长波光，比如阳光中的红光、红外光和近红外光对我们有益。虽然它们能量较低，但能穿透进入我们的身体，并且能够支持线粒体健康，给线粒体充电。我最近了解到，包围在线粒体周围的水其实会吸收红光，就像海洋吸收红光一样，所以海洋反射蓝光。我们就像一个个小海洋。

Yeah. And you know that mitochondria were essentially got, they're originators, bacteria that got into eukaryotic cells. No way. They have their own little genome. Yeah, they were initially not part of us. It's somewhat distant version of us. I got to interject, actually, just hold, like keep that in your mind. Do you know how you inherit mitochondria? Through mom. Yeah. She's the mitochondria. How fucking wild is that? Well, you want to know it? You like the, you seem to, sex difference. Well, you seem to like sex difference and you're hyper focused on mating and reproduction. So let me, you should have kids, man. I can't wait. I'm ready. Kids are, well, you know the two things. One, one of the only challenges I have with having you as a friend is that I have to constantly tell women in my direct messages that I'm not going to relay messages to you. Coming here today, I had several people.

是的，你知道线粒体其实是来自细菌，它们进入了真核细胞。你相信吗？它们还有自己的小基因组。是的，它们最初并不是我们身体的一部分，是我们某种遥远的版本。让我插一句，其实你知道线粒体是怎么遗传的吗？通过母亲。是的，她就是线粒体。对吧，这多神奇啊？嗯，你想知道吗？你似乎对性别差异很感兴趣，你对交配和繁殖特别专注。所以，我觉得你应该有孩子，我已经等不及了。我准备好了。孩子嘛，你知道的，有两件事。第一，我和你做朋友唯一的挑战之一就是我不得不不断告诉在我私信里发消息的女性，我不会把消息转达给你。今天来这之前，我有好几个人...

Anyway, a lot of women try to get to you through me. Okay, the second thing is in terms of sex differences. What were we talking about here? That you're fucking mitochondria comes. Yes, sorry, different brain circuit turned on there. There's something now happening in England. Okay, this has been approved for mitochondrial diseases. So there are people who have mitochondrial diseases and they want to have children, right? And so they don't want to pass along these mitochondrial diseases. When the egg is fertilized, the splitting of the egg into multiple cell types that forms the blastocyst, which just means balls of cells, which is the early embryo, et cetera. The mitochondrial DNA are intensely important for the physical pulling apart, the spindles and things that pull those apart. They come from mom.

好的，很多女性通过我接近你。好吧，第二件事是关于性别差异。我们刚刚在谈论什么？关于你体内的线粒体。对不起，我的大脑回路刚才换了个频道。现在在英国有件事情正在发生。针对线粒体疾病的措施已经获得批准。有一些人患有线粒体疾病，但他们仍想要孩子。他们不想将这些线粒体疾病传给下一代。当卵子受精后，它会分裂成多种细胞类型，形成囊胚，也就是一团细胞，这是早期的胚胎等等。线粒体DNA对这些细胞的物理分离极其重要，而这些线粒体DNA来自母亲。

Okay, so it's actually been solved that you can do three parent IVF to bypass the fucking way. So you get... But this is now being done. So think about it as women age, right? And they're ovarian reserve declines, right? So does the quote unquote quality of the eggs. We can talk about quality of sperm because this is definitely plays a role in terms of what it called day three crashes, you know, when the embryo doesn't become a blastocyst, it doesn't get passed day three. It's typically attributed to the sperm, but a lot of the process is coming from the spindle and therefore the mitochondrial DNA of mom. So there's now a quadriord donor where you get two parents and let's say the woman has, let's say she has a mitochondrial issue, genetic issue she doesn't wanna pass on, or let's say that she's, you know, in her late 40s or early 50s, or maybe even mid 50s, they can take eggs, presuming she still makes eggs, take the nuclear DNA, put it into the, essentially an egg that's had its nuclear DNA taken out, but maintains its mitochondrial DNA and then fertilize with the sperm.

好的，其实现在已经解决了通过三亲体试管婴儿来绕过一些传统问题。你可以这样想：随着女性年龄的增长，她们的卵巢储备会下降，对吧？卵子的"质量"也会下降。虽然我们也可以讨论精子的质量，因为这在所谓的"第三天萎缩"中也扮演了角色，也就是胚胎没办法发展成囊胚，无法度过第三天。通常这种情况的原因归咎于精子，但许多过程中涉及到了纺锤体，因此也与母亲的线粒体DNA相关。现在有一种方法是四方捐赠，你可以有两个父母，比如说女性有一个线粒体问题，她不想传给后代，或者她已经是40多岁，甚至50多岁，她们依然可以通过这个方法怀孕。这种方法是利用她的卵子，假设她仍然有卵子产生，将其中的细胞核DNA取出，放入一个已经去掉细胞核DNA但保留线粒体DNA的卵子中，然后再用精子进行受精。

The sperm, obviously, with the sperm from the father. You end up with a child that has the nuclear DNA of the intended mom and has essentially surrogate mitochondrial DNA in the side of the planet. This is so fucking cool. That's actually being done, okay? That was being done actually fairly often in, from what I understand, in Ukraine prior to the war, there were people in the United States traveling there. It's not legal here. They do it, I believe in some places in the Middle East, in Mexico, and certainly in England for mitochondrial disease. So this has been done, it works, but it brings up all sorts of interesting ethical considerations. Who is this child? Well, the child has the nuclear DNA of one mom and the mitochondrial DNA of a different mom.

精子的来源显然是父亲的精子。结果是一个孩子拥有意图中的母亲的核DNA，以及来自不同来源的线粒体DNA，这在地球的另一边相当于代孕。这真是太酷了。实际上这种技术已经在应用，据我了解，在战争爆发前的乌克兰，这种情况相当普遍。有些美国人专门去那里，因为在美国这是不合法的。据我所知，一些中东地区、墨西哥和英国也在进行这种治疗线粒体疾病的技术。这种技术已经被实践过，并且证实有效，但它也引发了各种有趣的伦理问题。这个孩子是谁呢？孩子有一个母亲的核DNA和另一个母亲的线粒体DNA。

This is so sick. Yeah, I only learned about the mitochondrial, only comes from mum thing like three months ago. And I kind of, not really being able to stop thinking about it. The reason is, when you look at somebody and I'm gonna use Kanye West as my example for this, didn't think I was gonna go there. You really want this podcast flat? Reminds me of, well, invite Lex and Kanye in the conversation.

这真是太酷了。是的，我大约三个月前才知道线粒体DNA只来自母亲这件事。从那以后，我几乎一直在想这件事。原因是，当你看一个人时——我这里想用坎耶·韦斯特（Kanye West）作为例子，我自己都没想到会用这个例子，你真的希望这播客能一鸣惊人吗？这让我想起，可以邀请Lex和坎耶加入这个讨论。

Yeah, I know, I'm gonna say, sit down. What I think about in this, I total, the most pro-sign that we've done today, is if you have a person who has the mitochondrial function of a fucking V12 engine in a garage, mitochondrial function of a V12 engine, but the psychological chassis of a Honda Civic, you have this sort of crazy out there energy, but you don't necessarily have the handling to be able to sort of direct it. You described a lot of teenagers in early 20s males.

好的，我要说的是，请坐下。我认为，在我们今天所谈的内容中，最有意义的部分是——假如一个人的线粒体功能就像车库里的V12引擎那样强劲，而他的心理框架却像本田思域那样普通，那么他就会有一种狂放不羁的能量，但却不一定有能力去很好地引导它。你所描述的这种情况，正好符合许多十几岁到二十多岁男性的特点。

Yeah, of course. Especially where I went to school in Santa Barbara. Yeah, with the test results from pumpin'. But I just thought about that, when you go, okay, well, you've got this combining of psychological profile, but this almost uniharritability, when it comes to mitochondria, apparently it's like 99.0 something percent, is that, now I don't know if the other percent comes from the father, or if it's like some weird like meter, I don't understand. Was it a mito, something, I did a mitochondrial test, so I've sent off a bunch of cheek swabs, which would be cool, I'll get to see, those when I come back home.

当然，特别是我在圣塔芭芭拉上学的地方。是的，关于测试结果的事情。不过我只是想到，当你进行心理分析时，会发现一种几乎不会烦躁的情况，当涉及到线粒体时，这个因素似乎是99.0几的比例。我不太清楚剩下的百分比是来自父亲，还是有其他奇怪的因素，我不太明白。我做了一个线粒体测试，所以寄了一些口腔拭子样本，希望我回家后能看到结果。

Anyway, I just thought about, mum could be like this, powerhouse, or the opposite. You could have quite a low mitochondria function, however that presents energy, disposition, all the rest of it, but kind of the psychological predisposition of somebody that's like a fucking hard charge, and go get lots of conscientiousness, industrious, highly disagreeable, low politeness, all this stuff. I thought you thought it was real interesting about how those combine.

无论如何，我刚刚想到，妈妈可能会是这种充满能量的人，或者完全相反。你的线粒体功能可能相对较低，但这会影响你的精力、性格等方面。不过，从心理预设上看，有些人就是非常有进取心、勤奋、良好的责任意识、不太容易妥协、礼貌程度低等等。我觉得这些特质的结合真的很有趣。

Well, you're still gonna get, absolutely. You're still gonna get genomic DNA from mum, right? You know, there's 23 chromosomes, I mean, you're gonna get genomic DNA from mum, and from dad, what's really a mind-bent, no pun intended is, there's a woman whose laboratory is at Harvard, and then Catherine Dulach, who's a luminary in the field of neuroscience, who did some beautiful experiments, showing that different brain areas are genetically identical to mum or to dad, even in you and me.

好的，你还是会得到母亲的基因组DNA，对吧？你知道有23对染色体，意思是你会从母亲和父亲那里获得基因组DNA。有趣的是（没有双关的意思），有一位在哈佛大学的女性科学家，名叫Catherine Dulac，她是神经科学领域的杰出人物。她做了一些精彩的实验，显示即使是在我们身体里，不同的大脑区域在基因上是与母亲或父亲相同的。

You have entire brain areas that are 100% the genes from dad. It's not, it's a myth that every cell is a 50-50 mix of genes from all. Wow. Independent of the mitochondrial DNA piece, right? We're talking about genomic DNA. In fact, they did some marking studies, and you could actually, well, you see this two ways, you can do it if you mark the cells, and you know, blue ones are mum and, you know, et cetera. They do those kind of studies.

你的大脑中有些区域的基因完全来自于你的父亲。每个细胞都是来自父母各一半基因的说法其实是个误解。这个观点不包括线粒体DNA的部分，我们这里讨论的是基因组DNA。实际上，有些研究通过标记实验发现，你可以这样理解，他们对细胞进行标记，比如蓝色代表母亲的基因等等。他们就是通过这样的研究来了解的。

The more convincing studies, of course, are where you have genes that are passed specifically through the Y chromosome, right? And you can actually either postmortem, or in terms of the requirements of having a gene present in a given brain structure, you can realize that you have brains where a given brain area carries the disease mutation and another brain area doesn't. And even though it all came through dad on the Y chromosome, it should be everywhere, but it's not because there you have some structures that are essentially purely ex-acted.

当然，更有说服力的研究是关于通过Y染色体特定遗传的基因，对吗？实际上，你可以在死后或通过要求某个基因在特定大脑结构中存在的条件下，发现某些大脑区域携带疾病突变，而另一些区域则没有。即便这些基因都是通过父亲的Y染色体传递的，理论上应该遍布大脑的每个区域，但实际上并不是这样，因为有些结构基本上是单独提取的。

They see the little territories, domains, that they correspond to entire brain structures that drive of all things hypothalamic fat function. There's a condition of hyperfagia of like, very obese kids that can't stop eating, this kind of thing comes through, I forget it's mom or dad. So these things show up in the human genetics. I mean, human genetics is often more complicated than we think about it in terms of Mendelian genetics.

他们观察到一些小区域和领域，它们对应于整个大脑结构，而这些结构主导着与下丘脑脂肪功能相关的所有事情。有一种病症叫做食欲过盛症，比如非常胖的孩子无法停止进食，这种情况与他们的父母一方有关。所以这些情况会在人体遗传学中出现。也就是说，人类遗传学往往比我们在孟德尔遗传学上的理解要复杂得多。

You can get hypomorphs where you have a kind of reducing expression as opposed to just lacking a gene completely. This exists, and we can talk about this for hours. But so when people say, see an attribute, and they say, oh, that clearly got that from your mom or from your dad, that's actually could be true, right? They're much more like their dad in certain ways.

你可以得到一种称为次低表现型的现象，这种情况下，基因的表达量会减少，而不是完全缺失。这种现象确实存在，我们可以讨论很长时间。因此，当人们观察到某个特征时，说“哦，那显然是遗传自你的妈妈或爸爸”，这其实可能是对的。在某些方面，他们可能更像他们的爸爸。

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like more like their mom in certain ways, basically, because we're never gonna know, but their brain is entirely... And that actually separated out. Yeah, it's very well could be. It's gonna be fun when your kids play with my kids, and we can, you know, let's... That's you, that's good, that's good.

是的，是的，是的。在某些方面更像他们的妈妈，因为我们永远不可能完全知道，但他们的大脑完全是... 而那部分实际上是分开的。是的，很有可能。等你的孩子和我的孩子一起玩的时候会很有趣，我们可以... 这就是你，很好，很好。

Well, let's and I have this, but we're not gonna have kids together. I don't wanna give people the wrong impression. What I was referring to is the fact that, let's and I always have this discussion about timing, the delivery of our independently generated kids... So that they can grow up to here? He wants his kids to beat up my kids in Jiu-Jitsu.

好的，就让我们这样吧，但我们不会一起生孩子。我不想让别人误会。我所指的是，我和他总是在讨论我们各自孩子的出生时间……这样他们可以一起长大？他想让他的孩子在柔术上打败我的孩子。

Okay. I have more a theory about enrichment of sort of the engineering offspring versus the nursing. You have much more pro-social than him. He's very competitive in this regard, I see. Yeah, I mean, I'm competitive in certain things, but mostly, might... try and compensate for a lex. My interests are so like... I don't really find many people looking at my collection of interests in an overlapping way. I'm gonna beat him at octopus training or whatever it is. Well, the octopus raising community is a little, people are a little guarded, but... So, so is it, it's a whole thing, man. It's a whole different podcast, whole thing.

好的。我对工程后代和护理后代的充实有更多的理论。相比之下，你比他更具亲社会性。在这方面，他很有竞争力。我在某些事情上也有竞争心，但大多数时候，我可能试图弥补某种不足。我的兴趣很独特……我几乎找不到很多人对我的兴趣有相似的重叠。无论是什么，我会在章鱼训练上打败他。不过，章鱼饲养社区有点保守，但……所以，这是一个完整的话题，完全不同的节目内容。

But I did wanna ask you something. I wanna make sure, so you put out this video about your health journey, or I guess you'd say, your sickness journey and seek in search of it. You're seeing really good. Can I wager a hypothesis? Because I've experienced this myself at one point. Do you think that at some point, sounds like I'm leading the witness, but that it's possible to... in pursuit of recovering one's health that along the way, because I've done this, you do something or take something that layers in another health thing that makes that direction increasingly confusing.

我想问你一件事。我想确认一下，你发布了这个关于你健康旅程的视频，或者说是你生病旅程的视频，并在过程中寻找解决方法。你的情况看起来很好。我能提出一个假设吗？因为我自己曾经历过类似的情况。你有没有觉得，有时候在努力恢复健康的过程中，可能会因为一些做法或采取了一些东西，导致健康状况变得更加复杂，让人更加困惑。

Like I took this on the suggestion of some conventional doc recently, I decided to try and knock down my apobie a bit. It was a little high, and it created a whole set of... cascade of balls. All bladder issues for a couple days. I stopped taking it, I feel fine again. And I probably don't need to take it in the first place. So, I believe medications work. I think they can be very useful. I also think that some of them work so well that they can drive the system in directions we don't want to go.

最近，我听从了一位传统医生的建议，决定试着降低一下我的apobie，因为它有点高。这引发了一连串的问题，几天来我一直有膀胱问题。后来我停止服用，感觉又好了。我可能一开始就不需要服用这些药。我相信药物是有效的，也认为它们非常有用。但有时候，它们效果太强，可能会把身体引向我们不想去的方向。

So when I hear about these blood cleansing methods, or I hear, you know, I worry as your friend, I worry a little bit that, let's say I don't want you to struggle with the symptoms of Lyme's, but I do worry a little bit because these things are really extreme. Yeah, okay, so the health documentary that we put out, which is episode one, the reason that I did that was I assumed, at the start of last year, the day that I got the diagnosis, I knew that something was up, I knew that I was tied all the time, I knew that I wasn't recovered in the manner how long I slept, I knew that I had brain fog and I knew that my mood was low.

当我听到这些净血方法或者其他类似的东西时，作为你的朋友，我会有点担心。我不希望你因为莱姆病的症状而痛苦，但这些方法真的很极端。我拍摄健康纪录片的原因是，去年年初我被确诊的那一天，我就意识到有些问题。我总是感到疲倦，无论我睡多久都无法恢复精力，我感到思维混沌，情绪低落。

And like, you know, maybe this is just getting older, maybe it's something whatever. And the day that I started filming with my videographer was the day that I got a, hey, we've done an EKO test on your stool and it turns out that there's Lyme, we don't know if it's IgG or IgN, we don't know how prevalent it is when you got it, don't know if it's Borella, but be as good as you. It could have been way back when, you got to take quite a few antibiotics in the lives.

这段话可以翻译成中文为： “就是，你知道，也许这就是变老，也许是别的原因。我和我的摄影师开始录像的那天，我收到了一个消息，说他们对我的粪便做了EKO测试，结果发现有莱姆病。我们不知道是IgG还是IgN，也不知道你得病有多久了，也不确定是不是博雷利亚细菌引起的。也许你早就感染了，你得服用相当多的抗生素才能好。”

It was, certainly was vestigial. All of the stuff, all of the basic shit that wasn't exciting, I did, right? I did doxycycline. Yeah, doxycycline, minuscycline, like all of the usual treatments. This was not me jumping straight to going to Tijuana to have an intra jugular line put in and me live in a hospital. Wasn't me going straight to Vienna to get a fucking hypothermia treatment, like teaser about what the next episode is. It wasn't me going straight to those.

当然，这是很基础的。我已经尝试过所有那些基础的治疗方法，是吧？我用过多西环素。是的，多西环素，美他环素，以及所有常见的治疗方法。这不是我直接跑去提华纳进行颈静脉内注射，也不是让我住院的那种。我没有直接飞到维也纳去接受低温疗法，这就像是对下一集的预告。我没有直接跳到那些治疗方法上。

I'd gone through all of the standard, Gabrielle Lyon, that's looking after me. It's her team. And she is as like, Western Great Physician. Western by the book as you're going to get, but she's just a bit more like integrative than most people would be. So we're trying to make changes to diet, we're trying to make changes to, well, my training had to get backed off from like 10 out of 10 to six out of 10 for a while and oh, well, maybe we need to do, and then I had a fucking migraine with aura, I thought it was a stroke.

我经历了所有的常规治疗，Gabrielle Lyon和她的团队正在照顾我。她是个非常出色的西医，用书本标准来形容的话，她就是极致的西医，但她比大多数人更注重综合治疗。所以我们正在尝试改变饮食，还有我的训练强度也从10分中的10分降到6分，好吧，也许我们需要这样做。然后我突然出现了带有视觉先兆的偏头痛，我还以为自己中风了。

I thought it was having a stroke. So have you ever had a migraine with aura? No. They are. It's like a ring. Some people get it visually, but other people get it olfactory, and I get it olfactory. So I'm on an assault bike doing Norwegian four by four, it's fucking round a Patrick. And my heart rate's coming back down. It's been a 160, 5165, something like that, and it's coming back down. And like, it was as if someone shoved a piece of burning toast under my nose.

我当时以为自己中风了。你有没有体验过伴随先兆的偏头痛？没有。偏头痛伴随的先兆就像一个环。有些人会有视觉先兆，而另一些人则是嗅觉先兆。我就是嗅觉先兆。当时我正在使用一种叫作突袭自行车的器械做挪威式四组训练，体力完全耗尽。我的心率正在恢复，从160、165这样逐渐下降。然后，突然就像有人把一块烧焦的吐司放到我鼻子底下，让我闻到。

Like that was all like a smell. That worries me because normally when somebody gets the sort of phantom smell of burning toast, we worry about temporal lobe seizures and... So a majority I go at. A majority I droxed. That's why I thought I'm like, this is how I die. I die on an assault bike in Onet Gym, Austin, Texas. This is how I fucking got in here. Yeah, but I was doing no magic. It's not like super bad ass, but it's in the right place. Is that how I get taken out?

就像那一切都好像是一个味道。这让我有点担心，因为通常当人们闻到类似幻觉中烧焦吐司的味道时，我们会担心可能是颞叶癫痫发作……所以大部分时间我都在努力，大部分时间我都精疲力竭。这就是为什么我会想到，我会不会就这样死去。我死在德克萨斯州奥斯汀的Onet Gym的动感单车上，这就是我进来的方式。对，不过我并没有施展什么魔法。这也不是什么超级了不起的事情，但位置确实对了。难道我就是这样被干掉的吗？

This is just like on social media. That's true. So anyway, I immediately go and get CT scan. No, it's not. I go in to get a what is it? A transient ischemic attack, TIA. Yeah, I'm like, we go and do another one with contrasts. And now I've got fucking gadolinium in me and I'm gonna have to detox the gadolinium. We're gonna people creating after TIAs, you know? It doesn't surprise me, isn't it, you were protective. And it's not like the amount of shit that wasn't included in that vlog that I went through, like hundreds of sauna sessions with colostyramine or charcoal body wash as a binder to try and like get the mold out of me.

这就像在社交媒体上一样。没错。不管怎么说，我马上去做了个CT扫描。不是的，我进去是为了检查什么来着？一次短暂性脑缺血发作（TIA）。是的，我就这样，我们去做了另一个带对比剂的检查。现在我体内有钆了，我还得把钆排出去。我们会在短暂性脑缺血发作之后创造一些事情，你知道吗？这并不让我惊讶，你是不是很有保护意识。而且这还不是我在那个视频日志中没提到的大量经历，比如我去桑拿了几百次，或用胆酸考来处理，或者用活性炭沐浴露作结合剂，尝试把体内的霉菌排出去。

And... So you had mold in line? Oh, the litany of things, mold. I mean, I saw that in the video, but the mold was confirmed. The mold was through the roof. I've done, who does total talks? Can't remember who does the test? Anybody that's got it, total talks is kind of the gold standard test. We're gonna need to key later metals after being in the sparrage, right? That smells like bumper in there. Heavy metals were in there, BPI's were in there. But I mean, the problem is, and I said this in the, in the dog, if you do a huge battery of tests, loads of shit's gonna come back and be out of whack. But if you don't feel bad, it doesn't matter.

翻译如下：你这边有霉菌的问题？哦，问题真是一大堆。我在视频里看到了，但霉菌已经确认了，情况相当严重。我忘了是谁做的测试，但有个叫“total talks”的，就是业内公认的权威测试。我们需要在那个狭窄的地方待过之后进行重金属的排除，对吧？那里闻起来味道像是汽车保险杠。重金属和其他有害物质都在里面。但问题是，我在视频中也提到过，如果你做一大堆测试，很多结果可能都会显示不正常。但如果你没有什么不舒服的感觉，那就无所谓。

Yeah, so you have antibodies to chocolate or strawberries or you probably develop those as a kid. And I love dark chocolate and strawberries, but I'm sure I make antibodies to them. That doesn't mean I have a food allergy. Yeah, right. So if you do a lot of tests, stuff's gonna come back. And what you're doing is you're basically like a guess who show like homes in your way through a list of potential suspects for why you don't feel good. And one of the problems that I found, and have found since the dog came out, even the lots of people, especially people from like the M-M-E-C-F-S community, chronic fatigue syndrome stuff, I'm tinnitus for a long while, like that community was like, fuck, like somebody is talking about this, and they're saying it's kind of a silent, like suffering that nobody really appreciates.

是的，所以你对巧克力或草莓有抗体，或者你可能在小时候就已经产生了这些抗体。我喜欢黑巧克力和草莓，但我确定我对它们也有抗体。这并不意味着我有食物过敏。是的，没错。所以如果你做很多测试，总会有一些结果出来。你做的事情基本上就像是一个"猜猜谁"的节目，通过一系列潜在的嫌疑人来寻找你不舒服的原因。我发现的一个问题是，自从狗出来后，很多人，尤其是那些像慢性疲劳综合征（ME-CFS）社区的人，他们长期以来一直有耳鸣等问题，这个群体的人会感到，终于有人提到这个问题了，并说这是一种无人真正重视的无声痛苦。

And this was met at least in large pot by people going, Chris looks fine. This is all psychosomatic. It's in his head. It's because he's pushing himself too hard. It's because of blood clot. Well, that makes it worse, right? And I'm certainly not suggesting that. I mean, I think you're doing an important public health service by talking about these things. You know, I think I'm hearing more and more lately from people, young men who took drugs for to avoid hair loss, post-fenastried syndrome in the medical community, the standard medical community thinks it's nonsense. But you talk to these guys that are having serious and at least till now permanent. Hopefully some of this stuff can be reversed. Sexual health issues, psychological issues. I mean, it's cratered the lives of a lot of young guys.

这段话的大意是：许多人认为克里斯的状况看起来没问题，所发生的一切都是心理因素导致的，是他自己给自己施加了太大的压力，或者说是由于血液凝块引起的。但这种说法只会让情况更糟糕。我并不是在暗示这种说法是正确的。我觉得，通过谈论这些问题，你实际上是在为公共健康做一件非常重要的事情。最近我听到越来越多的声音，特别是来自于那些服用了药物以防止脱发的年轻男性，他们患上了“非那雄胺后综合症”。而传统医疗界却认为这些都是无稽之谈。然而，你跟这些年轻人交流，会发现他们确实遇到了严重的问题，目前为止，情况似乎都是永久性的。希望有些问题可以逆转。这些问题包括性健康问题、心理问题，严重影响了许多年轻人的生活。

And there's actually a scientist out at scientist's physician out in Florida who I'm and I'm posting on the podcast. There needs to be more discussion about these things. I always thought that you could kill lime with high dose or just long-duration docks of cyclin treatment. And you found it helped or didn't help. Yeah, it helped. But it's just when you start to get deep into these things called fish tests, you know, fish tests for it. And I'm working with like doctors like fluorescent and CQ hybridization. There's this Dr. Kastin who is a German guy who's like the number one on the planet. Matt Cook out of San Francisco San Jose is the guy that's leading this like more name so on. Forward thinking he does like, he does a lot of stuff.

有一位科学家兼医生在佛罗里达，我正在播客中发布关于他的内容，需要更多的讨论这些事情。我一直认为可以通过高剂量或长期使用四环素治疗来消除莱姆病。你发现它有帮助还是没帮助？是的，有帮助。但当你深入研究所谓的鱼测试时，你会发现新的问题。我正在和医生们合作，比如荧光检测和CQ杂交技术。有一位名叫Kastin的德国医生，他在这个领域是全球顶尖的。来自旧金山圣何塞的Matt Cook是这方面的领导者，他非常有前瞻性，做了很多研究工作。

Forward thinking sports medicine doc who's now doing peptide stuff. And just not quite right and not quite fixed. All of that is to be said, I got inverse pretty privilege, which is you look fine on the outside, you're in good condition, you're a young dude that seems to still be performing it at an okay level. But it's kind of the same as saying to you same bowl, oh, you ran a sub 10, you must be great. It's like, yeah, but I should be running like 954s or 95s. And I know where I'm supposed to be at. And I know where I want to be at. And I don't like surrender to entropy in this way and just accept a lower standard of living for myself.

一位具有前瞻思维的运动医学医生现在开始研究肽类治疗。然而，他的状况仍有些不对劲，问题也没有完全解决。这一切让我有一种“逆向优越感”：从外表上看，你状况良好，是个年轻人，看起来表现也还不错。但这有点像对博尔特说：“哦，你跑出了10秒以内的成绩，你一定很棒！” 的确，我应该跑到9.54秒或9.5秒。我清楚自己应该处于什么水平，也知道自己想达到什么水平。我不愿意就这样向无序屈服，降低自己的生活标准。

And that was the main thing I wanted to people to take away. It was like, there are so many people who don't have the inclination, the time or the resources like I do to be able to text you or a tear or fucking runder or whoever I want or Matt Coco, fly to take time off to go to Mexico and do all of this bullshit. That's just like, this is life now. This is my life now. Yeah, I'm just a bit more forgetful. I don't think I used to be that forgetful. Yeah, I fall asleep at APM. I don't think I used to fall asleep at APM. Yeah, like my mood’s a little bit low, but maybe it's just because of and it's explained away and explained away and explained away by lifestyle, environment, psychological disposition, aging, something, and you're like, there are chronic underlying infections that you've got and to treat them is so fucking complex and so expensive.

这主要是我想让大家明白的一点。有很多人不像我一样有倾向、有时间或者资源，能给你发短信或者随便找人聊天，或者想见谁就见谁，比如Matt Coco，想请假去墨西哥做各种事情。这就是生活，现在就是这样的生活。是的，我现在有点健忘，我觉得以前没那么健忘。是的，我晚上八点就睡着了，我觉得以前不会那么早就睡。是的，我的情绪有点低落，但可能是因为生活方式、环境、心理状况、年龄增长等原因，这些解释一遍又一遍。但事实上，你身体里有慢性的潜在感染，而治疗它们既复杂又昂贵。

But the mold was the COVID and mold with the two things that really fucking push me over the edge. And then when you get into autoimmune, all you need for autoimmune is genetic predisposition, permeable gut lining and environmental stressor. And if you live in a house with mold for two years, like I challenge anybody that's got those two to do the third and not get fucked. Is it true that mold is a prominent issue in Austin? I hear this. It's one of the highest, Texas is one of the highest states in the country. Is it the, you know, hot human data from the world? So for some reason, this country decides your country decides it's gonna build houses out of wood, it's an organic material. But while it's being built out of wood, it's exposed to the elements. So it gets wet and hot and wet and hot and wet and hot.

霉菌和新冠是让我崩溃的两大因素。当涉及到自身免疫问题时，你只需要三样东西：遗传倾向、肠道渗透性增加以及环境压力源。而如果你在一个有霉菌的房子里住了两年，我敢说任何具备前两项的人都会因第三项而出现问题。我听说霉菌在奥斯汀是个大问题，是吗？德州是这个国家霉菌问题最严重的几个州之一。由于天气炎热潮湿，再加上这里的房子是用木材建造的，而木材是一种有机材料，在建造过程中暴露在外，就反复受到潮湿和炎热的影响。

And now the skeleton of the thing that you live in is has been wet and hot and now it gets covered in cladding while it's been wet and hot and sometimes it's wet as it gets covered. And home design is something I think a lot about from the lighting perspective, we didn't get into it, but like you know, we hear so much about benefits of red light. But you know, long wavelengths light can really offset some of the toxicity of blue light. But it's not just about sleep, but going back to what you were just describing, do me a favor, I'd love for you to talk to David Faganbaum who cured his own castle man through an intelligent approach of taking these already approved drugs to treat castle man's, I mean, he cured himself, he's alive 11 years now, he's got kids, he's married with kids, he was gonna die.

现在你居住的地方的骨架刚经历了潮湿和炎热，现在在被包上一个外壳，并且有时在包覆过程中还是潮湿的。关于家庭设计，我常常从照明的角度来思考，虽然我们没有深入探讨过这些，但你知道，我们听过很多关于红光益处的说法。不过，长波长的光确实可以抵消一些蓝光的毒性。这不仅仅关乎睡眠，说到你刚才描述的情况，帮个忙，我很希望你能和大卫·费根鲍姆聊聊，他通过一个聪明的方法——利用已经被批准的药物治疗Castleman病，治愈了自己的Castleman病，他现在已经活了11年了，还有了孩子，他结婚了，也有孩子，原本他快要死了。

Like dead, but he has this not for profit every cure where they use AI and hardcore scientific methods basically. I mean, not to sound loose about what exactly they do, what he's a serious scientist in physician, to try and decode different diseases and try different existing drugs to cure them. So I think it'd be worth talking to him, he's very open-minded and he understands the medical profession and he understands that if the solution hasn't been handed to you yet, it's because people aren't aware of it, but it's very likely that it does exist. So I think it'd be a good conversation for you. I like it, I mean, look, if I was to track my journey, we were here in this location, I'll lower a different angle, but 14 months ago or so, I think.

像一个非常严谨的科学家，他有一个非盈利组织，使用人工智能和前沿的科学方法来研究各种疾病，并尝试利用现有药物进行治疗。我不想把他们的工作说得太笼统，他是一位非常严肃的医生和科学家，努力破解不同疾病的奥秘。我觉得和他交流会很有收获，因为他非常开明，充分理解医学界的现状。他知道，解决方案如果还没找到，很可能是因为人们还没有意识到它的存在，而不是它不存在。所以，我认为和他交流会是一次很有意义的对话。我很喜欢这种想法。回顾我的旅程，大约在14个月前，我们还在这个地点，我从不同的角度观察这个问题。

And just after that September of last year, and sort of spring of this year where the two was times for health, brain was so slippery, I was so forgetful, it was insane, it was like trying to think through mud. I love the agility of my own thoughts and the fact that that was taken from me through, you know, no fault of my own. I fucking hell, oh God, you were too hard-charging. I focused on sleep, I mean, bed for like at least. I hear vigorous guy, I don't buy though, like you're just pushing too hard. I mean, there are ways in which people push too hard, but you're, like I said, you have a 12 cylinder engine that too, you built yourself to that. And you came into the world presumably with some forward center of mass. I feel like you were born, started nursing, finished nursing and got into the world and started doing stuff.

在去年的九月之后，到今年春天的时候，我的健康出了问题。大脑变得非常迟钝，我特别健忘，感觉就像在泥泞中思考一样。以前我很喜欢自己思维的敏捷，但是这种能力却在不知不觉中被夺走了。我真是无语了，天啊，我的确太拼命了。这段时间我把重点放在睡眠上，每天至少要上床休息。我知道有些人觉得这样很激烈，但我不这么认为。有些人确实过于拼命，但就像我之前说的，你就像一台12缸的引擎，这是你自己构建出来的。你来到这个世界，从一开始就怀有某种前进的动力。我觉得你刚出生就开始奶水喂养，然后迅速长大并开始做事。

Yeah, so, but that period, the last time that we were here, you can even go back and watch the vlog from after we've recorded. And I think I finished up with Eric and I'm outside and I'm like half asleep, falling asleep on this couch. And it was, if I, two and a half years ago, we're a 10, if that was Chris, where he's supposed to be. 14 months ago, I was at a four or a five. And then the start of this year and for much of the start of this year, it was like a three or a four. I would say I'm up to now, I swing between seven and an eight. And the fact that I was able to do the live shows in New York and Toronto last week and I've got LA coming up and then Boston, I'm Boston Chicago Nashville. And it feels like there's color back in the world because it felt very grayscale for a long time.

好的，那么，那段时间，上次我们在这里的时候，你甚至可以回头看我们录制后的博客视频。我记得和Eric一起结束录制后，我在外面，感觉快要睡着了，坐在沙发上半梦半醒。那时候，差不多两年半前，我的状态是满分10分，如果那时Chris在应有的位置上。14个月前，我的状态降到4分或5分。而今年初以及这年初的大部分时间，我的状态大概是3分或4分。而现在，我的状态已经回升到7分或8分之间。上周我在纽约和多伦多的现场演出都能顺利进行，接下来还有洛杉矶，然后是波士顿、芝加哥和纳什维尔。现在感觉世界又恢复了色彩，因为之前很长一段时间都感到像是在灰色的世界中。

And there's a, I say it in the dark, but there was a day when I forgot how to tie my shoes. Like I looked down at my feet. and there were laces that were undone. And I didn't know the combination to tie my laces in to be able to get them to be in a bow anymore. And I'm like, I've gone from that, which was like a three out of 10 to now, I feel okay and there's some color in the world. And I can have fun with my friends and I can fucking send it. Like, and I can stay out after 11 o'clock without fearing that the next day is going to be ruined.

在黑暗中，我会说，有一天我竟然忘了如何系鞋带。我低头看着自己的脚，但鞋带散开了，我竟然不知道怎么把它们系成一个蝴蝶结。我觉得我的状态从之前差劲的三分，现在已经好多了，生活中开始有了色彩。我可以和朋友们一起玩得开心，甚至放开了去做我想做的事情。而且，我可以在晚上十一点之后继续待在外面，而不用担心第二天会被毁掉。

We're not drinking at the 37. Should I be treating myself with that much fucking fragility? No, I don't think so. I mean, it's, I mean, it's almost like you're describing you're kind of having a sort of dementia for a while. It felt like, if you ever taken an anti-colonergic? No. So I took one, this is funny. I like to stimulate the colonergic system. Well, you should do, but if you have, I'm not a big nicotine guy, but everyone's in a while. If you have overactive bladder syndrome, which I and a lot of men developed during COVID because we were right next to our bathroom and we had nothing else to do.

我们不在37号喝酒。我真的需要对自己照顾得那么小心翼翼吗？我觉得不用。就像你说的，好像你一段时间有点像患上了痴呆症。如果你曾经服用过抗胆碱药？没有。我服用过一个，这很有趣。我喜欢刺激胆碱能系统。你应该这样做，但如果你得了过度活跃膀胱综合症——在疫情期间，我和很多男性都得了这个病，因为我们就在浴室旁边，没什么别的事情可做。

So we were drinking fluid and going to the bathroom and drinking fluid and going to the bathroom. And I was like, I found myself urinating more frequently when I didn't need to and I'm like, prostate problem. Like this is, go into the doctor. I tell him any laughs in the UK in like 2020. Lapse. I was like, is this funny to you or what? And he was like, you would not believe how many men I've seen over the last couple of months that have come in with this problem.

所以我们一直在喝水、上厕所，又喝水、上厕所。我发现自己没必要的时候也在频繁地小便，我心想会不会是前列腺问题。于是我去看医生，结果在英国发生了件滑稽的事，医生笑了。我问他：“你觉得这好笑吗？”他说：“你不会相信，过去几个月来很多男性因为这个问题来找我。”

My business partner at the time in the nightclub stuff, Darren comes around, we have a meeting. It's the first meeting we've had in ages after I ruptured my Achilles. So my foot's up on this thing. And while we're having this meeting, he drinks half a glass of water and it's still in the back of my mind, right? Because I've just gone to see my doctor that week. During the meeting an hour and a half, he goes to the bathroom three times. I'm like, mate, are you, are you signing yourself urinating more frequently than usual?

我当时的生意伙伴Darren来了，我们开了个会。自从我跟腱断裂后，这是我们很久以来的第一次会议。所以我把脚架在一个东西上。会议中，他只喝了半杯水，这件事一直在我脑海里挥之不去，因为我那周刚去看了医生。会议开了一个半小时，他三次去洗手间。我就有点担心，问他：“伙计，你有没有发现自己尿得比平时更频繁？”

It's not just from sitting too much because certainly during the pandemic, there was a lot of sitting. I just standing desk. Anyway, you've detrained the little muscle in between the bladder and the urethro to be like the sensitivity that you're supposed to be at, which is a fucking podcaster, right? Is one of the primary things you need to develop beyond your working memory is your bladder. If you're gonna be a podcaster or a touring musician, you gotta learn how to, you gotta, you learn how to hold your piss.

这不仅仅是因为坐得太多，当然在疫情期间，大家确实坐了很多。我用站立式书桌。不过，你已经让膀胱和尿道之间的小肌肉失去了应有的敏感度，这对于一个播客主持人来说是非常重要的，对吗？这是你需要发展的主要能力之一，除了工作记忆之外。如果你要成为一名播客主持人或巡演音乐家，你得学会憋住尿。

So one of the things that they give you is an anti-colonurgic, which gets that little sense of thing. Yeah, I mean, you probably feel like you're floating. It's horrible. What's the way they used to give, I mean, this was the whole thing of witches, you know, like to give them the, they would take it to give themselves the sensation of flying. This taps into the muscarinic colonergic system, different than the nicotine colonergic system.

所以，他们给你的其中一种东西就是抗胆碱药，它能带来一种特殊的感觉。是的，我的意思是，你可能会感觉像在飘。这种感觉很糟糕。过去，她们用这种药给女巫，大概是为了让女巫们觉得自己在飞。这种药物影响的是乙酰胆碱系统中的毒蕈碱受体，而不是尼古丁受体。

So nicotine and colonergic system, so the stuff of muscle movement and contraction and focus and all the reason people take nicotine. The muscarinic stuff is what you took. Muscarinic agonists are gonna give you a sensation that you're floating. It's gonna make your people's eyes. It's gonna make your pupils about this big, but you relax normally. If your pupils are big, you're more alert. You're gonna feel dissociated. This is, this was actually recreational witch drug use. Dude, it's fucking sucks.

尼古丁和胆碱系统是与肌肉运动、收缩、注意力集中有关的，也就是人们摄取尼古丁的原因。你提到的毒蕈碱是你服用的物质。毒蕈碱激动剂会让你感觉像在飘，它会让你的眼睛瞳孔变大，但你的身体会觉得很放松。通常情况下，瞳孔变大意味着你更警觉，同时也会感觉有些恍惚。这实际上是一种曾被用于娱乐的巫术药物。老兄，这实在是太糟糕了。

Yeah. Anyway, it felt like that. It felt like that. I remember I was talking to Michaela Peterson at the time and I was like, I'm being forgetful and I've got this thing and obviously she was experienced from dealing with her dad. And she was like, taking any new medications recently and I was like, yeah, like I've taken 10 milligrams a day of this anticholane, and she was like, rings me immediately. She's like, stop taking that stuff right now. That's what's-

好的。总之，当时就是这种感觉。我记得我那时候在和Michaela Peterson谈话，我告诉她我总是健忘，好像出了点问题。显然，她从处理她父亲的情况中积累了很多经验。她问我最近有没有开始服用新的药物，我回答说是的，每天服用10毫克的抗胆碱药物。她立刻给我打电话，说：“马上停掉！那就是问题所在。”

The prescription drugs work very well to hit the mechanisms they're supposed to hit, which is why they, they often- They often, they often, and listen, some of them are great. Some of them create real problems. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm man. Anyway, I'm- So it sounds like things were just getting layered in and layered in. And are you fighting through this stuff? And yeah, you're right.

处方药在针对特定机制方面效果很好，这就是为什么它们通常——它们通常——听我说，其中一些药确实很有效。不过其中一些会带来真正的问题。我的意思是，我是说，总之，我——所以听起来事情就是一层又一层地叠加起来。你是在努力应对这些问题吗？是的，你说得对。

As you try to treat one thing, maybe something else comes up. Like if there was H. Pylori Candida Cibo- Leaky H. Pylori treatment. Yeah. That's like four different antibiotics. Correct. Rufus. All timed with different sequence, sequence, sequence, sequence. And you're a hard driving guy. So the thing about autoimmune stuff is like a lot of men, women too, but a lot of men who tell me like, oh, I'm like, got this weird skin thing. Are these like, you know, and they freak out? It's because if you're the kind of person who can push and not get sick too often, oftentimes it means that your immune system can really ramp up in parallel with your kind of levels of drive and activity. These, I don't get sick people who always end up getting sick sooner or later, but they just push, push, push, push, push. You get high levels of interleukins and things that you end up, you know, essentially deploying so much cortisol, but also anti-inflammatory molecules, not just cortisol, that you can start, you know, getting skin conditions because you're getting ex-menus attack from that.

当你尝试治疗一种疾病时，可能会出现其他问题。比如说幽门螺杆菌、念珠菌、小肠细菌过度生长（Cibo）和肠漏的治疗，需要四种不同的抗生素，对吧？这些药物都需要在不同的时间和顺序服用。而你是一个充满干劲的人，所以关于自身免疫的问题，很多男人告诉我他们有奇怪的皮肤问题，并为此感到紧张。有些人是那种很能拼却不容易生病的人，这通常意味着他们的免疫系统能够随着他们的动力和活动水平而变得非常活跃。那些"我不容易生病"的人最终总会生病，因为他们一直在不断地推动自己，导致体内的白细胞介素等水平很高。他们动用大量的皮质醇和其他抗炎分子，最终可能会出现皮肤问题，因为这些过度的免疫反应其实在攻击自己的身体。

People get likened planus. You really want to get scared. Look up, likened planus is a some scary photos. Sounds like a moss. Well, they're like, you're right, but it's an autoimmune condition where the immune system, because of stress in it, excessively long days, et cetera, excessive caffeine, push, push, push. People will get, it's almost like, looks like bruising on the wrists. They can get them on their genitals, on the tops of their feet. People get very, very scared. And it's actually just, they're pushing themselves too hard. Some relaxation, look, I think humans can tolerate a ton of stress, provided they get enough sleep at night and sleep well. Let me give you this. But what you're telling me is you're looking down at your shoelaces. You don't recognize them as shoelaces even. This is how I know I'm too sleep deprived when I used to pull all-nighters and I'd work on grants and papers really late.

人们会得扁平苔藓。你真的会被吓到。查一查扁平苔藓，会找到一些吓人的照片。听起来像苔藓。嗯，你说得对，但这其实是一种自身免疫性疾病，由于压力过大、工作时间过长、过度饮用咖啡等原因，免疫系统出现问题。它看起来有点像手腕上的淤青，还有可能长在生殖器、脚背等部位，让人非常害怕。其实这是因为他们给自己施加了太大的压力。稍微放松一下，我认为人类可以承受大量的压力，只要晚上能获得充足且高质量的睡眠。让我这么跟你说吧，你告诉我，你低头看自己的鞋带时，甚至无法认出那是鞋带。这让我知道当我熬夜写科研申请和论文到很晚时，我的睡眠严重不足。

I'd look at the word va and I go, that's misspelled. That has to be misspelled. It's like, it's time to go to sleep. That was my, I mean, just to show you how unhealthy perhaps I was, that was my red lining. When I, when the word va looked, looked like, I'm not sure if that's spelled correctly. I'm like, I'm sleep deprived. I think I'm going too far. But yeah, dude, I, I've come to believe that there is basically no such thing as being overworked on the underrested. And I was resting. I was going to bed. I mean, I couldn't even show you my fucking whoop data and Andy's got it, all the team have got it. Oh man, I'm in. In terms of that, I was in bed. I'm not kidding, I was in bed from 7 p.m. till 7 a.m. for like weeks, months at a time. I'm like, I'm dedicating, and I'd wake up, having been asleep for all this time. And I'm like, I'm so drained.

我看到单词“va”时，总觉得它拼错了。这一定是拼错了，就像是在提醒我要去睡觉一样。这就是我可能不太健康的一个表现。当我连“va”这个单词都看不清时，我就觉得自己睡眠不足，可能做得太过了。但是，我开始相信，过度工作而不休息其实是不可能的。我确实在休息，我在睡觉。实际上，我可以给你看我的睡眠数据，Andy和整个团队也都看到了。说真的，我每天晚上从晚上7点睡到早上7点，一连好几个星期、好几个月都是这样。我努力让自己充分休息，结果即使睡了这么久，醒来后仍然感到非常疲惫。

And it's not, anyway, I'm now moving between, like if it's a really fucking bad one, like a six, up to a seven and sometimes up to an eight. And dude, when it's an eight, like today's probably a seven and a half, I woke up this morning, and I'm at the W in West Hollywood. I'm like surrounded, but I saw a homeless guy literally pissing into a wine bottle this morning. And I'm like, hey, what's going on? The sun's shining, fucking shit. And the sun's always shining. Go to a Dunkin' Donuts. We have a serious, homeless slash mental health slash addicted people. The world just felt like color. I'm like, fuck, this is so good. It's back in technical. It honestly feels a little bit like I kind of got a second. It feels like I died a bit. It feels like me who I am kind of died.

翻译成中文：无论如何，我现在在好坏之间徘徊，比如说如果真的很糟糕的话，大概是六分到七分，有时甚至到八分。哥们，当是八分的时候，比如今天可能是七分半。我今早醒来，身处西好莱坞的W酒店，周围都是人，但我看到一个无家可归的人，竟然在往一个酒瓶里撒尿。我想，“这是什么情况？”阳光灿烂，真糟糕，而阳光总是灿烂的。去一个Dunkin' Donuts。这儿有严重的无家可归/心理健康/上瘾等问题。世界看起来有了色彩，我心想，“这太好了。”感觉有点像自己有了第二次机会，又有点像我某一部分死去了，感觉我的某部分消失了。

And now I've been so gentle with myself this year. I've gone to bed early and I've restricted my diet and I haven't had any fun and I haven't really had an adventure and I've worked and I haven't got to do new stuff. I've just tried to hold on. You know, I used to have this, I still do, this really long end of your review. I had two goals for this year. Usually it'd be a lie. I'm a meditation practitioner, a training muscle game. We would try all this stuff. Two goals for this year. Fix my health, don't let the show drop. That was it. If I got to the end of the year and I hadn't fucked the show and my health was fixed, I'm like, that would be, and as I come into land, you know, we've got a few months left in the year. I think we might just sort of bring this into land there. So it's been a real, it's been a real sort of fucking adventure that I wouldn't wish on anybody, especially the hopelessness, having hope, expectation, that being dashed, that really sucks.

今年我对自己非常温柔。我早睡，控制饮食，没有享受过什么乐趣，也没有冒险，工作了一整年，但没有尝试新事物。我只是努力坚持。以前我有一个很长的年终回顾，现在仍然有。今年我有两个目标，通常会说谎。我是一个冥想练习者，也试图通过锻炼增强肌肉。今年的两个目标是：改善我的健康，不让节目出错。就这样。如果到年末我还没搞砸节目，健康得到了改善，那就是成功了。随着今年接近尾声，我们还有几个月的时间，我觉得我们可能就快实现目标了。这真的是一种我不愿意让任何人去经历的冒险，尤其是希望、期望被粉碎的那种绝望，真的很糟糕。

Like that's the hardest part that you think that things are going to change or be improved and then they don't. And then you have to deal with the expectation and then the disappointment and the disappointment was the worst thing. But if nothing else in kind of Brian Johnson's on the show later this week, Brian, very few people want to be Brian, but appreciate some of the things. that he's learned by the stuff that he's done. I'm like, dude, if I can tell you 20 different modalities that I think didn't move the needle and two that did, at least there's a bit of silver lining on the fact, and now obviously I'm hopefully on the trajectory of being back to being better. It seems like it sounds like it. I'm being hopeful. It feels like that to me.

就像是你以为事情会有所改变或改善，结果并没有。这才是最难的部分。然后你不得不面对那些期望，接着是失望，而失望是最糟糕的。但至少在某种程度上，我们要感谢Brian Johnson将在本周晚些时候的节目中分享他的经验。虽然很少有人想要成为Brian，但大家还是欣赏他从自己的经历中学到的东西。我想说的是，如果我能告诉你有20种方法没什么效果，只有两个有效，那至少这也算是不幸中的万幸了。显然，我希望自己正在朝更好的方向发展。听起来是这样的，我对此充满希望，对我来说也是这样。

And I did sort of round it out. I did, I did, here's Morgan to show a couple of weeks ago and Michaela came on and was talking about dad and Jordan's having a really fucking rough time. I was just kidding, he's doing. Super rough. Like just not good. The answer is not good. And she finished up with like, so we think it's because of mold and we think it's maybe because of this, not immune. But then we also think that it might be because of demons. And like that was what she left the conversation with and then peers turns to me and is like, Chris, you're real. I think it's the work of the devil.

我大致表达了一下这个意思。几周前，我上了摩根的节目，米凯拉也来谈论她爸爸和乔丹的事。他们现在过得真的很糟糕。我开玩笑地说，他的情况特别糟糕，非常不好。她后来总结说，我们觉得可能是因为霉菌，可能不是免疫的问题。但我们也认为可能是恶魔在作祟。她就这样结束了对话，然后皮尔斯转向我，说，克里斯，你是真的，我认为这是恶魔的问题。

And I'm like, why do I have to clean up this? Like this is her claim. This is a yes. Well, look, my point is I understand why because it feels so fucking cosmically unfair after a while that you're like, this has to be a fucking curse. Like this feels so much bigger and greater and more painful than it should be. I can only attribute this to like some comic retribution that is owed to me for some past slight, some something. And that's when you start to ask yourself. It's really an excessively hard. I mean, whatever the reasons, let me ask you a question.

我心里想，为什么我要去处理这个问题？这本来是她的责任啊。是的，我明白为什么会这样，因为一段时间后，这种感觉实在是太不公平了，让人觉得这一定是某种诅咒。这种事变得如此重大、如此令人痛苦，超出了本该有的程度。我只能把这归结为某种超自然的报应，是我过去的某个过失带来的。这也是你开始自问为什么的时候。不管原因如何，我想问你一个问题。

I mean, we're on a podcast, but in all sincerity, how can I and your other friends support you? And since we're doing this as a podcast, I'll also say, how can the people who listen support you? I mean, but really, I mean, do you want them? I mean, I'll be praying for you. I decide that. Do you want people to pray for you? Do you want, they will be, but do you want people to send you suggestions? Do you want people to not send you? You know, oftentimes when somebody's struggling like my or anyone's impulses, be like, I'm like, talk to Fagan, I'm doing this. Let me fix it.

我的意思是，我们现在正在录播客，但说实话，我和其他朋友要怎样才能支持你呢？既然我们是在做播客，我也想问一下，听众们要怎么支持你呢？我的意思是，你真的希望他们怎么做？我会为你祈祷，我已经决定了这一点。你希望大家为你祈祷吗？他们会祈祷的，但你希望人们给你建议吗？或者你不希望他们这样做？通常，当某人遇到困境时，我或者其他人的本能反应就是，我应该和Fagan谈谈，我要这么做。让我来解决这个问题。

We all want to do that. But I hear it's clear. This is like, you know, what started as lime, as it's opening up all sorts of doors and cupboards and stuff in there. And I mean, I, as your friend, I caution you against exploring whether or not you did something in a past life or did I think your, my understanding of you is that you're sufficiently in touch with your mistakes and your good choices. Overly in touch with the events. No, no, I don't think overly. I think you're a, you're an introspective person and flagelling yourself is certainly not going to help.

我们都想这么做。但我听说这很清楚。这就像，开始的时候只是些小事，却慢慢打开了各式各样的门和柜子。而我，作为你的朋友，我会建议你不要去探究你在前世是否做过什么。我认为你已经对自己的错误和好选择有足够的了解。过于纠结于事件本身。不是，不觉得是过于。我觉得你是个反思自己的人，而不断自责肯定不会有帮助。

But yeah, how can I support you? You do already, man. You know, I had a close run in over this weekend, which we'll see whether or not that ends up surfacing, perhaps relevant to our conversation about what's going on with mainstream media and how they are garnering momentum by attaching themselves to industries and platforms that have momentum. It's very interesting that it never happens before there's any status associated with trying to unearth. Imagine that.

当然，我该怎么支持你呢？其实你已经在支持我了。你知道，我在这个周末经历了一次非常接近的遭遇，至于是否会浮出水面，我们拭目以待。这个事件可能和我们谈论的主流媒体在发生的事情有关。他们通过附着在有影响力的行业和平台上来获取动力。很有意思的是，在这些事情有任何地位之前，这种情况从未发生过。想象一下吧。

Something. You are, dude, like I really cherish our friendship, like the fact that I can take your one text away from like giving me a fucking essay. You even sent me, this is to break the fourth wall, how good of a friend you are. You knew that I was like sad and worried this weekend. So not only did you give me a ton of different bits of advice, you then decided to peel off to give me like a miniature novel about a black ferret who repopulated an entire female colony of ferrets in this entire living. He saved the species. He saved the species.

你真是个值得珍惜的朋友。我们的友情让我感到非常珍贵，因为只需给你发个短信就能得到你洋洋洒洒的一篇“大作”。你甚至还有这么一个“突破次元墙”的举动，显示你是多么好的一个朋友。你知道这个周末我既伤心又焦虑，所以不仅给了我许多建议，还特意给我写了一篇“微型小说”。这篇小说讲的是一只黑色雪貂，它在自己的生活中重建了整个雌性雪貂群体，拯救了整个物种。

And I'm like, you're like Scarface. You're gonna save the species. I appreciate you. I appreciate all of the stuff that you do for me. That's it. I really do. I really cherish my friendship. Likewise. When does the book come out, people want to know? September, 2026. Let's fucking go, dude. 12 months later, we're gonna be back here. I can't wait. We'd love to. Yeah, I delayed it to add some things, change some things, and do some illustrations. And I apologize in a real way for the delay, but I'll make it worth people's while.

这段话可以翻译成： "我觉得你就像《疤面煞星》里的角色，你要拯救这个物种。我真的很感激你，为我做的一切我都心存感激。确实如此。我非常珍惜我们的友谊。同样地，我也是。人们想知道书什么时候出版？2026年9月。太棒了，哥们！12个月后我们还会回到这里，我迫不及待。我也很想。是的，我推迟出版是为了加上一些内容，做一些修改和插图。我真诚地为延迟表示歉意，但我会让大家觉得值得的。"

And thanks for the kind words. You're an amazing friend. I mean, I've been so fortunate to be part of this colleague set that we called podcasters and the more less same vintage of podcasters, although you got into it before me. I will be praying for you. And I also will do everything I can in terms of my connections and resources in the medical and scientific community to try and figure out what's going on. I do think you're on the recovery slope now. And I'll be praying that that continues and do anything to support you. I appreciate you, man.

谢谢你的赞美。你是一个很棒的朋友。我很幸运能成为这个我们称之为播客的同事团体的一员，虽然你比我更早开始。我会为你祈祷，并尽我所能利用我在医学和科学界的资源和人脉来了解问题所在。我相信你现在正在恢复中，并将祈祷这种状态继续下去，尽一切可能支持你。我很感激你的存在，兄弟。

You're equally, if not more amazing friend, how do you quantify these things, right? And it's such a pleasure to be in the same field, to call you a friend. And you're going to beat this fucking thing. No doubt. Thank you, man. Until next time.

你也是一位同样出色，甚至更出色的朋友，这种事情怎么能量化呢，对吧？很高兴能在同一个领域工作，并称你为朋友。你一定会战胜这个该死的东西。毫无疑问。谢谢你，伙计。下次再见。

Thank you very much for tuning in. And congratulations for not being so TikTok-brained that you switched off partway through an episode. If you enjoyed that with Cuban, you will love this one with Rhonda Patrick. Come on.

非常感谢你的收听。恭喜你没有在节目进行到一半时就因为短视频文化而失去耐心。如果你喜欢与库班的那一期，你一定会爱上这一期与朗达·帕特里克的节目。快来听吧！