20Sales: Why You Should Never Hire a VP Sales First, How To Create Urgency in a Sales Process, How to Do Traditional Outbound 10x Better, Why Revenue Doesn't Matter with Your First Customers | Mark Goldberger, Head of Enterprise Sales @ Ramp

You don't need product market fit in order to sell in enterprise, especially as that first seller. What you need to find is product customer fit. Those first sales, I don't think about revenue as being important. In no circumstances do you really want to bring in a VP of sales before you have a seller. This is 20 sales with me Harry Stebings and I started these vertical themes for 20 VC because I thought founders really needed to be advised by the best operators in these specific verticals sales, product and growth. Our sales discussion state is so actionable and hands-on. I absolutely love doing it.

在企业销售中，尤其是作为第一位销售者，您不需要产品市场适配。您需要找到的是产品客户适配。对于那些首次销售，我认为收入并不重要。在您拥有销售者之前，绝不要引进销售副总裁。这是与我（哈里·斯特宾斯）一起完成的20项销售，并且我开始了这 20 VC 的垂直主题，因为我认为创始人真的需要得到这些特定垂直领域的最佳运营商的建议，包括销售、产品和增长。我们的销售讨论状态非常可行和实际。我非常喜欢这样做。

I'm thrilled to welcome Mark Goldberger, head of enterprise sales at Ramb. The fastest growing corporate card and bill payment software in America. Prior to joining Ramb, Mark was the first enterprise rapid trip actions now called Navane where he helped bring in more than $100 million of ARR as an IC and then sales leader. And then before trip actions, Mark worked at high five, a video conference in companies since acquired by Dialpad.

我非常高兴欢迎Mark Goldberger，他是美国增长最快的企业卡和账单支付软件Ramb的企业销售负责人。在加入Ramb之前，Mark曾是enterprise rapid trip actions的首席实施人员（现改名为Navane），在此期间作为个人负责销售，在成为销售领袖之前协助带来超过1亿美元的ARR。在加入trip actions之前，Mark曾在视频会议公司High Five工作，该公司现已被Dialpad收购。

But before we move into the show's day, you might remember in our amazing episode with Maggie Hott, she mentioned a tool she could not live without called Pocus. What is Pocus? Well Pocus is a revenue data platform that makes it easy for go-to-market teams to analyse, visualise and action data about their prospects and customers without needing engineers. Pocus helps companies like Mero, Webflow, Loom and Superhuman focus their sales and success teams on the highest priority opportunities by surfacing insights at the right moment so wraps can take action quickly. Pocus gives you a 360 degree view into product usage, empowering you to act on insights and fill your funnel efficiently. Sales teams save 10 plus hours per week, digging through data to surface millions of new revenue opportunities, learn more about why top PLG businesses trust Pocus as their revenue data platform by visiting Pocus.com forward slash demo. And sales loft is the leading sales engagement platform, helping sales teams drive more revenue with the modern revenue workspace. It's the one place sales teams can go to prospect, manage active deals and get the insights they need to coach seller performance, forecast with accuracy and find out what steps to take to close more deals. Some of the world's leading companies like Google, Shopify and Stripe all love a new sales loft and so can you. It's the new way to sell. Find out more at sales loft.com

在我们开始今天的节目之前，也许你还记得我们与Maggie Hott的精彩一集中，她提到了一款她不能没有的工具叫做Pocus。那么Pocus是什么呢？Pocus是一个收入数据平台，使市场团队能够轻松分析、可视化和行动有关其前景和客户的数据，而不需要工程师。Pocus通过在正确的时候呈现见解，帮助公司如Mero、Webflow、Loom和Superhuman专注于优先机会，以便销售和成功团队能够迅速采取行动。Pocus提供产品使用的全方位视角，赋予您行动见解和有效填充您的漏斗的能力。销售团队每周节省10个小时以上，挖掘数据，挖掘出数百万元的新收入机会。了解更多关于为什么顶级PLG企业信任Pocus作为其收入数据平台的原因，请访问Pocus.com/demo。 Salesloft是领先的销售参与平台，帮助销售团队通过现代收入工作区驱动更多的收入。它是销售团队能够前往挖掘、管理现有交易并获得所需见解以辅导销售绩效、准确预测和找出更多成交步骤的唯一场所。一些世界领先的企业如Google、Shopify和Stripe都喜欢新的Salesloft，你也可以。这是新的销售方式。了解更多，请访问salesloft.com。

Mark, I am so excited for this. I had so many great things from so many former colleagues of yours and current colleagues of yours. So thank you so much for joining me today.

马克，我对此非常兴奋。你的许多前同事和现任同事都给了我很多好的评价。因此，非常感谢你今天能参加我的活动。

Harry, my man, it is so good to be here. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Now we have a lot to dive into, but I want to start with actually the move to ramp and leading Rams and price sales teams. How did you make your way into the world of enterprise sales? And how did you most recently come to lead Rams and price sales team?

哈里，兄弟，来到这里真是太好了。非常感谢你邀请我参加节目。现在我们有很多内容可以探讨，但我想先谈谈你从事企业销售的经历，以及最近是如何成为Rams and Price销售团队的领导者的呢？

I came to the world of enterprise sales from the world of wine. I recognized that's not the typical journey one makes. So I was working in Massachusetts as a salesperson for a wine distributor ship while I was going to business school. And upon graduating, it was the great recession, not a great time to leave a good paying job for an unpaid internship somewhere. So I actually founded my own company. I bootstrapped the SaaS business back then knowing nothing about SaaS mind you, but built a cloud-based company with tools in the cloud specifically for the wine industry. Bootstrapped it, we had paying customers. It was a wild, incredible experience.

我从葡萄酒行业来到企业销售领域，我意识到这并不是大家通常所走的典型道路。当时，我正在马萨诸塞州的一家葡萄酒经销商公司担任销售人员，同时我也在攻读商学院的学位。在毕业后，正值大萧条时期，而那时候离开一份高薪工作去做无薪实习并不是一个好时机。因此，我实际上成立了自己的公司。我当时对SaaS一无所知，但构建了一个基于云的公司，提供云中特别针对葡萄酒行业的工具。我们通过创业筹资做到了这一切，还有付费客户。这是一次疯狂、令人难以置信的经历。

After a few years, ultimately I did decide to wind down that business. My wife and I moved out to Silicon Valley when she took a role with a little startup in Mountain View called Google. And so I found myself out here in Silicon Valley and I said, okay, I'm going to be an account executive now again for SaaS companies. And I sent my resume out to about 100 companies. And the response was there was no response. Literally could not get an interview. More than 100 resumes sent out. I'd founded my own company that was a SaaS company. I'd always been a top performer in sales. And yet no one was interested in even interviewing me. It was a frustrating experience. It was a humbling experience. But ultimately as someone who has already had a giant chip on my shoulder, it drove me to go out there and perform.

过了几年，我最终决定放弃那个业务。我的妻子和我搬到了硅谷，当时她在一家叫做谷歌的山景城的小创业公司工作。因此，我发现自己在硅谷了，我说：“好吧，我现在要成为SaaS公司的会计执行官。”然后我向大约100家公司发送了我的简历。但回应却是没有回应。我甚至无法获得一次面试。我已经创立了一家SaaS公司，并且一直是销售业绩的佼佼者。但没有人对我感兴趣，甚至不想面试我。这是一次沮丧的经历，也是一次谦卑的经历。但是，作为一个已经有着巨大心理负担的人，这驱使我出去表现自己。

You're the master of also being a cold outbound being the enterprise leader you are. You must also self analyze that what was wrong with your approach and why did that happen? There's fault on both sides.

你是一个擅长冷冰冰的外向表现的企业领袖大师。你必须自我分析你的方法错在哪里以及为什么会发生这种情况？双方都有错。

I think there's a challenge from software companies and sales leaders thinking too small inside of a box in terms of the profile of who they're looking for.

我认为在寻找员工的过程中，软件公司和销售领导者的思维局限过于狭窄。他们过于关注招聘人才的个人资历，忽略了其他方面的潜力。

And there was also a challenge on my approach not having it lived in this world. It was a world that was far into me and I needed to find my way in. Ultimately after a couple of months, I connected with a terrific recruiter and ultimately taking a position with a video conference in company called High Five was backed by General Catalyst and Light Speed competing again soon. And this was before the pandemic when selling video convincing was maybe a little bit harder. Ultimately ended up getting recruited by trip actions now called Nivan and was their first enterprise account executive and really built the enterprise go to market there.

我的方法还面临着一个挑战，就是让它在这个世界中得到生存。这个世界对我来说还有些陌生，我需要找到自己的方向。最终，在几个月之后，我与一位了不起的招聘人员联系上了，最终接受了一家名为High Five的视频会议公司的职位，该公司得到了General Catalyst和Light Speed的支持，正在与竞争对手展开竞争。这是在疫情流行之前，卖视频会议可能会稍微困难一些。最终，我被Nivan（之前是Trip Actions）招聘，并成为他们的第一位企业客户经理，在那里打造了企业的市场。 本段文字主要讲述作者找到工作的过程，面临的挑战和最终的成果。在寻找工作的过程中，作者需要适应一个陌生的世界，最终通过招聘人员的帮助找到了一份工作。作者的公司是一家名为High Five的视频会议公司，得到了风投公司General Catalyst和Light Speed的支持。作者在公司工作期间，成功应对了销售视频会议的困难。最终，作者被另一家公司Nivan（之前是Trip Actions）招聘，并成为了他们的第一位企业客户经理，打造了企业市场。

You mentioned the time at Nivan in such a transformational and kind of hypergurth time for the company. What a one to the biggest takeaways for you from that time and from being the first enterprise sales leader there. What have you taken with you to a time now is round the first lesson that I really took away and this comes from when I was an IC an enterprise account executive there.

你提到了在Nivan公司这个具有变革性和高速增长时期的时间。对你来说，那段时间最大的收获是什么呢，作为第一个企业销售领导者，你带走了什么经验教训至今？我从那段时间，以及在那里担任企业客户主管员工的经历中，学到了许多经验和教训，其中最重要的一课是，作为一名IC企业客户主管，我懂得了…

I built up a massive amount of pipeline the first six to nine months. I had 87 opportunities in my name Harry and if you know anything about enterprise sales that's way too many opportunities. But I started to close deals about month six and what I recognized was you don't need product market fit in order to sell an enterprise especially as that first seller. What you need to find is product customer fit and so when you have a huge amount of pipeline like that you can really prioritize it and focus on the accounts that match best with the vision that you're building toward and where they're required capabilities match with your core competencies.

我在头六至九个月建立了大量的销售管道。我的名下有87个商机，如果你对企业销售有所了解，你会知道这实在是太多了。但是六个月左右我开始拿下生意，我发现你不需要产品市场适配度来销售企业，尤其是作为第一位销售人员。你需要找到的是产品和客户的适合度。如果你有如此庞大的销售渠道，你可以优先选择最符合你正在建立的愿景，且与你的核心竞争力相匹配的客户账户，并专注于它们。

So when you focus on that 20% that's going to drive 80% of your outcome amazing things happen. And I closed about 13 million dollars of revenue that first year. My question is you said they're about going to product customer fit. I love it. I get it but we have those 86 companies. What do we do then? What does product customer fit actually mean? Help me and help sales leaders and wraps understand.

所以当你专注于那20%能够带来80%结果的事情时，神奇的事情就会发生。我在第一年赚取了大约1300万美元的收入。我的问题是，你说要关注产品与顾客的契合度，我喜欢这个想法，我明白了，但是我们有86家公司，那么我们该怎么做呢？产品与顾客的契合度实际上意味着什么？帮我和销售领导和后勤人员理解。

Yeah so it goes down to something that I built later on a qualification methodology I call the Lean Pivot Walk and essentially what you're trying to do is understand hey if the boxes that they're looking to check are the boxes that we check really well you should lean in you should be going after that opportunity full force. If what they're looking for is something that is not even on your roadmap and wouldn't be on your roadmap for the next five years you need to be honest with yourself.

那么，它基于我后来建立的一个资格评估方法称为精益轴心步态法。实质上，你要做的就是了解，如果他们要勾选的框框是我们非常擅长勾选的框框，你应该倾斜向它，全力追求这个机会。如果他们所寻求的是在你的路线图上甚至不会在未来五年的路线图上出现的东西，你需要对自己诚实。

So many reps out there have happy ears and just because someone wants to meet with them they think hey they've got an opportunity you need to be honest and be able to walk away and qualify that deal out and then there are other opportunities where maybe you check some of the boxes and not others and is there a world where they're willing to have two different solutions one for the rest of the world and maybe one for North America and so you start to understand these dynamics and you can play off of them and ultimately close a lot of business that way.

很多销售代表都是听了甜言蜜语就觉得对方有机会，需要诚实地离开并验证这个交易是否可行。同时也有些交易，你可能符合某些要求而不符合另一些要求，这时候你需要考虑是否可以为他们提供两种不同的解决方案，一种用于全球，另一种用于北美。当你了解这些动态，你就可以从中受益，并最终通过这种方式完成许多业务交易。

You said that you can get product customer fit without having a product market fit. I'm really intrigued. Does the salesperson need to be the one to create the sales book playbook or does the founder need to be? How do you think about that question in terms of the product market fit question as well?

你说过可以在没有产品市场适配的情况下实现产品顾客适配，这点让我很感兴趣。销售人员需要制定销售手册，还是创始人需要负责？在考虑产品市场适配的问题时，你如何考虑这个问题？

Yeah for product market fit I think that is driven more by the founder being out in the field talking to customers talking to prospects really understanding their pain points and being able to dive in at that level but when you think about sales and a sales playbook I think that's originating from the salesperson and in some businesses the founder is that first seller in other businesses you want to hire a junior salesperson to go out there and figure things out but in no circumstances do you really want to bring in a VP of sales before you have a seller because they're going to come in with the preconceived notions that ultimately might not mesh with your particular business model.

我认为产品市场定位更多地受到创始人在实地与客户和潜在客户交流、真正理解他们的痛点并能够深入了解的驱动。但是，当你考虑到销售和销售手册时，我认为这来自销售人员，在某些企业中，创始人是第一位销售人员，在其他企业中你可能需要雇佣一名初级销售人员去开拓市场，但在没有销售人员之前，你真的不想聘请一位销售VP，因为他们将带着预设的观念进来，最终可能与你的特定业务模式不吻合。

I always think high the more senior because then they can build the team around them rather than hire the junior and then bring in a more senior who then adopts the team that they didn't actually hire. How do you think about that challenge?

我一直认为，越高级的人越好，因为他们可以围绕团队建立，而不是雇佣初级人员，然后再雇佣更高级的人，然后接手他们实际上没有雇佣的团队。你对这个挑战怎么看？

I think about it a lot but where I come from ultimately if you have a sales leader who's coming in they have a playbook in mind they have processes in mind they have sales tools in mind and that playbook might not mesh with the product that they're actually selling it might not mesh with the people in that organization and so when you try to jam that square peg in the round hole you ultimately create thrash and for an early startup you can waste a lot of cycles and a lot of time having the wrong people in the wrong position. And he has a really good point.

我经常思考这个问题，但我来自的地方，如果你有一个销售领导人进来，他们会有一个预定的计划、流程和销售工具，但这个计划可能不适用于他们实际销售的产品，也可能不适用于组织中的人员。当你试图把一个方形木块塞进圆形洞里时，最终会创造出混乱，对于一家初创企业来说，在错误的职位上任用错误的人员，可能会浪费很多时间和资源。他说得很有道理。

I think you said that that's sometimes for a founder where they need to lead the case. When it is the founder leading the case what are the signals that they need to hire the first junior sales rep? Often it's like a million in a hour or is touted as the number which I think is bullshit because it means little.

我认为你说过，对于创始人来说，有时需要担任一线领导。当创始人领导的时候，他们需要雇佣第一个初级销售代表的信号是什么呢？通常是指在一小时内实现一百万美元销售额，但我认为这只是虚假的数据，意义不是很大。

What are the signals that the founder needs to make that first time do you think? I think they should make that first hire as soon as they have a product that they really want to be testing out in the market. I think it's a lot sooner than a million ARR to be honest. Those first sales I don't think about revenue as being important. The revenue or the currency that matters in those first sales are the logos.

你认为创始人需要做出哪些信号来进行第一次雇用？我认为，当他们有一个真正想在市场上进行测试的产品时，他们应该尽快进行第一次雇用。我认为这应该比达到一百万ARR的时间更早。对于最初的销售，我认为收入并不是很重要。在这些初次销售中，真正重要的是那些公司的商标。

You need to be acquiring logos. You need to be able to say hey this company works with us that gives you credibility when you're trying to make that sale for revenue. You want their feedback, you want the case study, you want them to be a reference for you. That matters a lot more than revenue in those early days. In terms of game about that single sales rep hire Jason Lamkin says about the importance of hiring too at a time so you can really determine quality and compare. Do you agree with that or do you think one was just as well?

你需要获取商标。你需要能够说，“嘿，这家公司与我们合作”，这样在你试图为收入进行销售时，就能给你带来可信度。你想要他们的反馈、案例研究，你想要他们成为你的参考。在那些早期阶段里，这比收入更重要。在雇佣单个销售代表方面，关于雇佣两个人的重要性，杰森·兰金说，这样你才能真正确定质量并进行比较。你同意这种观点还是认为一个人也可以做得很好呢？

The way that I think about it is I'm looking for sales people who can provide 10x growth, not 1x or 1.5x. When you find someone who can provide that 10x level of growth they're a rare find. To find two at the exact same time and to be able to recruit them and have them join at the same time is an exceptionally rare opportunity. If you do find them by all means you should hire them, you should hire them as fast as you can whenever you can. But ultimately if you are at scale it's easier to hire hey two sales people at a time you're going from 20 reps to 30 reps to 40 reps. Great, hire an incoming class. But in those early days where each additional player is going to have so much impact you need to be grabbing the best talent when you can.

我的想法是寻找能够提供10倍增长的销售人员，而不是1倍或1.5倍。当您找到能够提供这种10倍增长水平的人时，他们是很少见的。要同时找到两个人并能够招募他们并同时加入是一个非常罕见的机会。如果您确实找到了他们，不管怎样您应该雇用他们，尽可能快地雇用他们。但是，如果你处于规模化阶段，一次雇用两个销售人员更容易，你从20个代表到30个代表到40个代表。很好，雇用一个新的班级。但在早期阶段，每位新加入的球员都会产生很大影响，因此您需要在能够时抓住最好的人才。

I spoke to the best talent when I could who worked with you and so I have a lot of information about that you're so great at Mark. So I want to dig into some of the areas where you're taxed and I want to start with deal champions and multi-threading in particular. I think it's something that people university still do badly actually.

当有机会与与你一起工作的最优秀的人交谈时，我获取了很多关于你“优秀”的信息。因此，我想深入探讨你会面临困难的一些领域，特别是指在“交易冠军”和“多线程”方面。我认为这些仍是很多人不太擅长的领域。

How do you confirm you have a deal champion in a cycle? There is only one way to know if they really are a champion for you. You have to test them and the way that you test them is asking them to take you to the executive buyer. Now that can result in two things. One they have the power and influence to be able to take you to the eb. Typically that's a CFO especially today. If they have the power and influence to do it and they're willing to take you there help present with you you need to be in that meeting on your behalf they're selling internally you've got a champion.

如何确认在销售周期中，你是否拥有一位代表你的冠军呢？只有一种方法可以知道他们是否真正为你争取了最优秀的结果。你必须测试他们，而测试方式就是要求他们带你去见高管采购人员。这样做会有两种结果。一是他们有能力和影响力将你带到高管面前。通常这个人是财务总监，特别是在今天这个时代。如果他们有这个能力和影响力，并且愿意带你去，协助你呈现产品，你需要在会议中代表自己出现，他们会在企业内部进行推销，这说明你拥有了一位冠军。

If they say no to you for whatever reason it means one of two things either they don't have the power and influence to take you to the executive buyer in which case you're dealing with a coach or just a stakeholder in the organization who really is not going to be meaningfully important for you or you haven't earned the right yet to have them take you to that CFO or to that eb in which case you have more selling to do. What is the right way to ask without seeming slimy or like you're asking for too much?

如果他们以任何原因拒绝了你，那意味着两种可能性，要么他们没有权力和影响力把你带到高管买家面前，那你就是在与教练或组织中的股东打交道，他们对你来说真的不会有什么实质性的重要性，要么你还没有赢得让他们带你去与财政总监或高管买家打交道的权利，这种情况下你还需要继续销售。怎样才能适当地询问而不显得卑鄙或要求过多？

You need to set that expectation from the start literally in the first meeting where I walk through a pitch deck. I share with them why we exist, what we're solving for, and what it's like to be working with us. From everything from implementation and onboarding to hey part of our sales process is we're going to want to have an open dialogue between your executive team and our executive team. This is not a typical vendor customer relationship, but it's a partnership, and so we want to make sure there's that open dialogue so that what your CFO cares about, our CEO listens to.

你需要从一开始就设定期望，也就是在我介绍推介文档的第一次会面上。我与他们分享我们存在的原因、我们要解决的问题以及与我们合作的感受。从实施和投入使用到销售过程中，我们需要与您的高管团队进行公开对话。这不是典型的供应商客户关系，而是一个合作伙伴关系，因此我们希望确保有这种公开的对话，以便您的首席财务官关心的事情，我们的首席执行官会倾听。

When's the right time in the deal cycle to ask to go to the executive buy? Because you don't want to do it too soon where it's like whoa we've just met Mark and I'm not quite ready for that but then you don't want to do it too late. When's that time you need to be able to get to the executive buyer. There's a lot of different ways you can get there too. It's not just through a champion. You can leverage your network, you can leverage your board members, you can leverage your executive team to back channel into that executive. Typically, you want to be able to get some kind of a business value assessment where you're agreeing on what the value is that we can provide for an organization.

在交易周期中什么时候去邀请高层买家是最合适的？因为你不想太早就去求助高层，这样会让他们感到吃惊，我们才刚接触马克，我还没有准备好，但是又不能太晚了。你需要找到合适的时机去接触高层买家。有很多种方法可以实现这一目标，不仅可以通过赞助人，还可以利用你的人脉网，董事会成员，以及你的执行团队去向高层买家进行后门通话。通常情况下，你需要以某种商业价值评估方法去达成一致，在这个阶段我们同意为这个组织提供的价值是什么。

At that point, you're going to go with your champion and present those findings to the CFO or to the executive buyer. What should you provide your champion to make sure that they're equipped to sell your case back to the executive buyer on your behalf? But when you're not there, the phrasing of that question scares the shit out of me Harry. And the reason why is that you need to be in that meeting. There is not a world that I would ever become for a living in where I want to outsource my job to a champion and a prospect that is living very dangerously on the edge. I know a lot of sales people who will take completely wholesale what a champion says. Hey my CFO doesn't meet with anybody, my CFO is too busy, I will be the one to talk to them on your behalf.

在那时候，您将与您的支持者一起将这些发现呈现给CFO或高管买家。您应该向您的支持者提供什么，以确保他们能够代表您向高管买家推销您的案例？但当您不在时，那个问题的措辞让我非常害怕，哈利。原因是您需要参加那次会议。在任何工作领域中，我都不会想要将我的工作外包给一个在极度危险境地的支持者和潜在客户。我认识很多销售人员，他们会完全采用支持者的话。嘿，我的CFO不和任何人见面，我的CFO太忙了，我将代表您与他们交谈。

We can't have that because what happens when the CFO asks you that question mr. Mrs. champion that you don't know the answer to? What happens when they question these numbers or they ask about implementation or have you talked to these different stakeholders and you don't know the answer? We have to be in that room with you.

我们不能允许这种情况发生，因为当公司的首席财务官问起您一个问题，而您又不知道答案，那该怎么办呢？当他们质疑这些数字或询问实施情况或您是否与不同的利益相关者进行了交流，而您不知道答案，又该怎么办呢？所以我们必须和您一起去那个会议室。

Yeah, mark what a terrible question god silly no thank you for clarifying that. And by the way do ridicule any questions I love this. And you mentioned the importance of multithreading there and bringing the executive buyer, it's important that sales reps, the sales team see around corners.

是的，马克说的问题有多么糟糕，简直是荒谬的，谢谢你没有澄清。而且顺便嘲笑一下任何问题，我喜欢这个。你提到了多线程的重要性以及带来行政买家，对于销售代表和销售团队来说，了解未来变化非常重要。

What are some ways that sales reps can get better at seeing around corners during a deal cycle? A lot of people tend to wear rose colored glasses, they get happy ears. As I mentioned before people are meeting with them, they're excited rose colored glasses people are great fun at parties but they make for shit sellers. You need someone who is a lot more skeptical who questions everything. The way that you see around corners is you ask the hard questions, you run toward the danger and what scares you, not away from it.

销售代表在交易周期中如何更好地预见未来？很多人往往戴着粉色眼镜，他们听到什么都乐观看待。正如我之前所说，人们在与他们会面时，他们感到兴奋，但粉色眼镜的人在派对上很有趣，但在销售方面却无用武之地。你需要一个更加怀疑的人，质疑一切。你预见未来的方式是，你要问一些难以回答的问题，你要冲向危险和你害怕的东西，而不是逃避它。

Harry what are the reasons why you're going to lose this deal, what happens if your champion leaves, what happens if the CFO says this that or the other? If you ask yourself all of these questions and any possible way you could potentially lose this deal, now you have a map of all of the things that you potentially need to overcome, and in a worst case, you're overcoming objectives that might not actually take place and in the best case, you're really prepared for when that punch inevitably comes.

哈利，你将会失去这个交易的原因有哪些？如果你的支持者离开了，如果首席财务官说了这个或那个呢？如果你能问自己所有这些问题以及你可能在交易中面临到的任何潜在问题，现在你就有了一张清单，列出了所有你可能需要克服的问题。在最糟糕的情况下，你正在克服可能根本不会发生的目标，而在最好的情况下，你准备好了当不可避免的困难到来时。

I think it's also actually incumbent a little bit on the founders to create an environment of safety where people feel they can ask the tough questions and then bring that information back and not be terrified because I think often it's fear that makes happy is multiply. I do want to ask you I think kind of sales qualifications a big problem and people still suck at it.

我认为创始人也有责任创造一个安全的环境，使人们可以提出困难的问题，并将信息带回去，不会感到害怕，因为我认为往往是恐惧使快乐倍增。我确实想问你，我认为销售资格是一个大问题，人们仍然不擅长销售。

When you look at sales qualifications day, how do you coach and train young sales reps, and what do you see is the biggest mistakes that people make in sales qualification today? I think the biggest mistake that people make from sales qualifications standpoint is really not going deep enough. They'll ask discovery questions and then that first level of discovery question has been completed and they're already selling their solution.

当你看销售人员资格考试的时候，你会如何指导和培训年轻的销售代表，并且你认为现在销售资格考试中最大的错误是什么？我认为从销售资格考试的角度来看，最大的错误是没有深入到足够的程度。他们会问探究性问题，但是一旦完成了第一层的探究性问题，他们就已经开始销售他们的方案了。

You need to go deep you need to do some significant discovery where you get to secondary third level pain and really let someone stew in that pain. I'll give you an example Harry you're on a run this weekend and you scratched your arm right so I ask you about that and find out hey you know yeah kind of stings maybe you need a bandaid.

你需要深入探索，需要做出一些重大发现，让自己获得二三级疼痛，真正地让某个人在那种痛苦中沉迷。我来举一个例子，哈里，你这个周末去跑步，刮伤了胳膊，所以我就会问你，发现嘿，肯定有点刺痛，也许你需要贴一下创可贴。

I don't know is there blood there we start to dig in and find out hey you've got some serious pain what happens if you don't address that pain right now maybe it'll get infected and now instead of a bandaid maybe you need antibiotics and if you don't do that what's the risk to you shit maybe my arm's gonna fall off or I'm gonna have to get it amputated well now this little scratch that you weren't really thinking about is a painful festering wound that you really need to address hey turns out I've got a bandaid Harry and I can solve this for you right now.

我不知道那里有没有血，我们开始挖掘并找出问题，嘿，你有严重的疼痛，如果你现在不处理这个疼痛会发生什么，也许它会感染，现在你可能需要抗生素，如果你不这样做，那么对你来说风险是什么，该死的，也许我的手臂会掉下来，或者我不得不截肢，现在这个你没想过的小伤口变成了一个疼痛发炎的伤口，你真的需要处理一下，嘿，我有一块创可贴，我可以为你解决这个问题。

you have to be able to go deep on that pain and qualify what is it that this person or this organization needs from a solution standpoint to solve their pain and if what they need is what you have great you've got that match you should lean in but if what they're looking for is something that's completely different than what you provide you need to be able to walk away again it comes down to that lean pivot walk you can do med pick med pick is incredibly enlightening from a qualification standpoint it's me and my team.

你必须能够深入到疼痛中去，并确定这个人或组织需要什么样的解决方案来解决他们的疼痛。如果他们需要的正是你提供的，那太棒了，你可以加强推销；但如果他们正在寻找的是完全不同于你提供的东西，你需要有能力放手，转而寻找其他机会。这涉及到深入鉴定方面的精益、转向和分手。做中间选项的分析对于鉴定问题非常有启示性，我和我的团队都有这样的经验。

I don't want a med pick filled out I actually want you to come in and we're gonna do an act of discovery together and I'm gonna ask you about your deal I'll ask you about this opportunity what's going well was med pick what's med pick are you kidding me med pick is an incredibly important qualification methodology it's really how you understand the deal dynamics you can look up the definition afterward but basically it's an acronym and what we want to find out are one of the metrics that are important the economic buyer the decision criteria the decision process paper process implicated pain not just pain we want to understand the implications of it for your competition as well as your champion that's what med pick stands for ultimately it's an act of discovery.

我不想让你填写一个名为“med pick”的表格，我实际上想要你过来，我们一起进行一次发现之旅，我会问你关于你的交易的问题，询问你什么正在进行中，什么是med pick。你在开玩笑吗？med pick是一种非常重要的资质评估方法。这是你了解交易动态的方式。你可以在之后查阅它的定义，但基本上它是一个缩写。我们想要找出重要的度量标准、经济买家、决策标准、决策流程、文件流程、影响的痛点，不仅是痛点，我们还想了解它对你的竞争对手以及你的支持者的影响。这就是med pick的含义，最终它是一种发现之旅。

Harry what do you like about this deal what gives you pause who are there any red flags you've encountered okay if I could give you a magic wand Harry what are the five things you would want to know or see happen here that that you don't know or haven't happened yet great now we've got an action plan for what to do let's go out there and do it I love that my I'm also very ashamed that I haven't heard of this before I love any acronym as a vc it's what feed my soul but I do want to ask okay so we're going through this qualification process and I am leaning in okay I'm excited for what you've got to sell but I'm not quite converting what do you do to create a sense of urgency in a sale cycle to get someone over the line it comes down to pain Harry if you don't have enough pain there's not a world where I can get you to have the urgency you need short of discounting and that kind of cheapens what we all do what I would suggest is you got to go back to first principles you got to go back to discovery and if you Harry don't have enough pain I need to find someone else in the organization who has that burning pain I need to find other people and build groundswell again this comes down to multi threading and pipeline generation you want to get as high and as wide as you can in an organization because the only thing better than having a champion is having multiple champions.

哈利，你对这个交易有什么喜好？有没有让你担忧的？你有没有遇到什么红旗警示？好的，如果我能给你一个魔术棒，那么你想知道或看到这里的五件事是什么？你还不知道或还没有发生的事情。好的，现在我们有一个行动计划，让我们去做吧。我喜欢这个缩写，作为一名风险投资家，它满足了我的兴趣，但我还想问一下：我们正在经历这个资格评定过程，我很兴奋你要出售什么，但我还没有被说服，你会怎么做来创造销售周期中的紧迫感，让别人跟进？这归根结底取决于痛苦。哈利，如果你没有足够的痛苦，我不能让你产生紧迫感，除非是通过打折等方式，但这会贬低我们所做的一切。我建议你回到第一原则，回到发现，如果你哈利没有足够的痛苦，我需要找到组织中有这种强烈痛苦的其他人，要重新构建声势，这又涉及到多线程和管道生成。你要尝试尽可能多地涉足组织，并获得广泛的认可，因为除了有一个冠军之外，唯一更好的就是有多个冠军。

does that mean that you would advise found is not to do discounting I think that discounting is an expectation that's spilt into procurement teams it's built into the way that sales operates today I think some organizations lean on it very heavily whereas others are able to sell the value and really hold the line more the more pain that you find and the more your solution matches with the pain that you're solving for the less you need to discount a lot of people say hey we'll give you the discount or we'd love for you to give us a customer a furl and allow you to use your logo how do you as a startup ask a prestigious company hey can we use your logo for validity what's the right way to do that without sounding need the install it up.

“这是否意味着你建议不要进行打折？”我认为打折已经融入采购团队的预期中了，这已经成为现今销售方式的一部分。我认为有些机构过度依赖它，而其他机构则能够卖出价值并真正保持价格水平。当你的解决方案越贴合痛点，你发现的痛点越多，你就越不需要打折。很多人说：“嘿，我们会给你打折，或者我们很乐意让你为我们的客户宣传，让你使用我们的标志。”作为初创企业，你如何向一家知名公司申请使用他们的标志？在不显得过分需要的情况下，应该采取什么正确方式来做到这一点？

He yeah so one I don't ask for it the assumed clothes there is really important as part of working with us we want to support our customers we love to show off the great companies that are working with us and so we're going to have your logo on our sales materials on our website that's part of what we do oh we don't allow companies to do that okay it was great chatting with you good luck finding a solution that is going to solve for the pain that that you have today

嗯，所以其中一个问题是我并没有要求的是，我们认为的服装真的很重要，因为这是与我们合作的一部分。我们希望支持我们的客户，我们喜欢展示与我们合作的伟大公司，因此我们将在销售材料和网站上展示您的标志。这是我们的工作的一部分。哦，我们不允许公司这样做。好的，和你聊天很愉快，祝你好运，找到解决当今痛苦的解决方案。

you have to have confidence around it Harry do you feel enough people do you have confidence in sales today no not at all why is that it's a great question I think when you're a junior sales rep when you don't have as many bats you see things all the time that are new to you and that's scary as a junior salesperson hey I'm encountering something I've never seen before I don't know where this path will take me when you've done hundreds of deals like I have and you don't have that much hair left on on on your head and what is there is. graying quickly you have what one of my mentors Carlos Delatore he had a great colorful phrase for it's hot scar tissue and scar tissue is also known as pattern recognition and the more pattern recognition you have the better you're able to combat that because instead of living in your head and having to analyze every single decision and every single thing you do you can actually live by instinct you've seen it before what the proper response is

哈利，你必须对此充满信心，你觉得有足够多的人在今天的销售中充满信心吗？并不是所有人都有信心。为什么会这样呢？这是一个很好的问题。我认为，当你是一名初级销售代表时，你没有太多的经验，你会经常遇到新的事物，这让你感到害怕。你可能会遇到一些你从未遇到过的困难，你不知道这条路会带你去哪里。但是，当你做了数百个交易后，像我这样的人，留在头上的头发并不多，而且已经开始变白，你会有一种被我的导师卡洛斯·德拉托雷称为“热疤痕”的感觉。热疤痕也被称为模式识别，你拥有的模式识别越多，你就越能够战胜它，因为你不必每次决策都分析每一个细节，你可以凭直觉去做正确的反应，因为你以前已经见过了。

you mentioned your mentor that being Carlos what do you think sales leaders can do to better mentor this younger less confident cohort to be that best sales I spoke to some of your mentees what does great sales mentorship look like in require stage you think

你提到你的导师是卡洛斯，你认为销售领导应该做些什么来更好地指导这些年轻且缺乏信心的员工成为最优秀的销售员？我和一些你的受 mentees 的人谈过。在提高销售能力阶段，优秀的销售指导看起来是怎样的？你认为呢？ 意思：你提到了你的导师卡洛斯，你认为销售领袖为了更好地指导这些年轻且不自信的员工成为最好的销售人员应该做些什么？我和一些你的受 mentees 的人交谈过。在销售技能提高阶段，什么是优秀的销售导师？你有什么看法？

I think the key to mentorship is helping people see their blind spots it so I'll give you an example now you spoke to a founder of a YC company who I mentor he actually reached out to me in a cold LinkedIn message and it cut through the noise and I responded to him and I've been excited to work with him and his team but he's not a sales professional and so he's going through this deal cycle and I shared with him what are his blind spots he thinks he's got an opportunity here what happens if it doesn't work out does he want to have all of his eggs in that basket no you got to build more pipeline right so I'm helping him as an example to see around his blind spots and ultimately to be able to close more opportunities with other reps with other people the dynamics can change the buttons you need to push will change but ultimately you're helping to make them more well rounded

我认为导师的关键在于帮助人们发现他们的盲点。举个例子，我曾经与一位我指导的 YC 公司的创始人交谈过。他是通过 LinkedIn 冷联络我，突破了繁杂的信息，我对他和他的团队合作感到很兴奋。但是，他并不是销售专业人士，所以在进行交易循环时我分享了他的盲点，他认为他有机会，但如果不成功，他要如何处理？他是否想把所有的鸡蛋都放在一个篮子里？不，他需要建立更多的销售渠道。因此，举个例子，我正在帮助他看到他的盲点，最终能够与其他销售代表和人员一起关闭更多机会，动态是会发生变化的，需要按下的按钮也会变化，但最终你正在帮助他们变得更全面发展。

I do want to talk about hiring this young talent which as we said needs more confidence and needs a lot of mentoring but can still be brilliant in terms of hiring we need to know what great looks like and you said to me before that it's about the four h's success in sales is the four h's I'm loving the acronyms today Mark what are the four h's

我想谈谈雇佣这位年轻人才的问题，正如我们所说，他需要更多的信心和指导，但仍有可能表现出色。在雇佣方面，我们需要知道什么是卓越的表现，而你之前告诉过我成功的销售需要四个“H”，我今天很喜欢缩略语，Mark，请问什么是四个“H”呢？

the four h's is something that I came up with that really is about saying the intangibles matter more than the tangibles first h hunger you need to want it more than anyone else if you don't have that burning desire to succeed that deep need to win that insatiable yearning to compete you probably won't win or compete or succeed hunger is an incredible motivator to get you through the inevitable challenges it's not enough to just be hungrier than everyone else you need to be prepared to outwork them too there's a great quote from john mcman who was a tremendous sales leader and it sums it up well the difference between winners and losers is that losers practice until they get it right winners practice until they never get it wrong and also applies to sports I always think about tom Brady when I hear that someone who was not the most gifted athlete of all time but certainly the greatest professional athlete of all time because he outworked everyone else watched more film than everyone was in the gym earlier than everyone no one would outwork him and so he was able to rise when it mattered the most

四个'h'是我想到的一种理念，其实就是强调无形的因素比有形的因素更重要。第一个'h'是饥饿，你需要比其他人更渴望成功，如果你没有那种燃烧的渴望、深深的赢得的欲望和不可满足的竞争渴望，你可能就不会赢，也不会有所成就。饥饿感是一种令人难以置信的动力，让你度过不可避免的挑战。仅仅比别人更饥饿是不够的，你还需要准备比他们更努力地工作。约翰·麦克曼是一位杰出的销售领袖，他说的一句话很好地概括了赢家和输家之间的区别：“输家练习到做对为止，赢家练习直到不会错”。这也适用于体育运动，我总是想到汤姆·布雷迪，他不是史上最有天赋的运动员，但绝对是史上最伟大的职业运动员，因为他比其他所有人都更努力，在比赛前观看了更多的录像，比所有人都早进了健身房，没有人能够比他更努力工作，所以他能够在最关键的时刻崛起。

third age humility this is one that I will grant you a lot of sales people don't have they come in with bravado but I actually think humility is the approach you need to know that no matter how much success you've achieved there's always someone who's done more and there are always areas you can improve none of us are perfect certainly not me you need to recognize and embrace that you need to use that to fuel your growth the last age is heart it should be table stakes but instead it's more like special sauce think of it like grit what it takes to be a champion to be able to take a punch and keep fighting there's a great book by read hastings called note rules where he talks about talent density I actually think as important or potentially more important than talent density is grit density to have a team that just has a massive amount of grit

第三个阶段是谦卑，很多销售人员都没有这种素质。他们总是自以为是，但我认为谦逊才是正确的态度。你需要知道，无论你已经取得了多少成功，总有人比你做得更好，总有可提高的地方。我们都不是完美的，包括我在内。你需要认识到并接受这一点，用它来激励你的成长。最后一个阶段是心灵。这应该是标准配置，但实际上更像特别调味料。把它想象成冠军所需要的毅力、能够承受打击并继续战斗。里德·黑斯廷斯写了一本名为《没有规则》的好书，其中谈到了天赋密度。我认为比天赋密度更重要或者可能更重要的是毅力密度，拥有一个拥有巨大毅力的团队。

I do have to ask you mentioned there about hustle and the ability and desire to work all of them anyone else and put the hours in you said before to me you need to think outside the horse when it comes to hire and sales teams think outside the horse.

我必须问一下，你刚才提到了奋斗、能力和愿望，要超越别人，付出更多的时间和精力。你之前跟我说，招聘和销售团队需要大胆地跳出舒适区，寻找其他的方法。

I repeated this to myself and it didn't become clear to me oh me out here what did you mean by this and how does that impact how you think about what you look for in the people you add to your sales teams.

我反复对自己说了这句话，但是我还是无法理解。你是什么意思？这句话如何影响你对招募销售团队成员的要求？

It's a little bit of a mixed metaphor but let me tell you so from a product standpoint at ramp we think of the legacy state as a horse and buggy and do we want to build a faster horse and buggy or are we going to build an automobile on a slightly different vein.

这个比喻有点混淆，但是让我告诉你，从产品角度来看，我们认为遗留状态就像是马车，我们是要建造更快的马车，还是要在不同的方向上建造汽车。

I've heard guests of yours talk about the expression sales recruiting that fast horses run together right a players attract a players but if you want 10X productivity you need to think outside the horse you need a race car not a race horse let me give you an example here if you have a 10X better product and I hope you're investing in companies with 10X better products because they're amazing but if you have a 10X better product and a good traditional sales rep the best you can achieve is a 10X outcome it's a pretty good outcome but if you have a 10X better product and a 10X better sales rep you can achieve a hundred X outcome and the best sales people in my experience rarely fit the mold of what great sales people should look like and I'm not even talking about myself and my challenge getting into Silicon Valley the best sales people I've seen in the last several companies I've been in none of them would be hired today based on the rubric that sales leaders have you need to think outside the horse why what were they what did they have what did they not have that made them not fit in the rubric what made them that way for one thing they didn't come from the right companies or they didn't have the right linkedin profile or something about them would have canceled them out from even getting into the funnel from a hiring standpoint.

我听说过你的客人谈论由快马相聚的招聘销售表达式，也就是优秀员工会吸引更优秀的员工，但如果你想要10倍的生产力，就需要跳出惯有的招聘方式，你需要一辆赛车而非一匹赛马。举个例子，如果你有一个比市面上同类产品要好10倍的产品，我希望你会选择这样的公司进行投资，因为这样的公司让人惊叹。但即使你有这样的产品，配上一个好的传统销售代表，你也只能得到一个10倍的成果，这已经是一个相当不错的结果了。但是，如果你能找到一个10倍优秀的销售代表，你就可以获得100倍的成果。根据我的经验，最优秀的销售人员很少符合一般销售人员应该拥有的标准。我甚至在说我自己和我进入硅谷的一些挑战。我曾在几家公司中看到最优秀的销售人员，并不是那些符合雇主招聘标准的人，他们之所以不符合标准，一方面是因为他们并不来自正确的公司，或者他们的Linkedin个人资料不太正确，或者有些原因会导致他们无法进入招聘渠道。你需要跳出惯有的招聘方式，想一些更创新的招聘方式，找到那些非传统风格的销售人员。

But the best sales people will have those four h's but they're also going to have creativity can you take duct tape chewing gum in a zoom link and mageiver a seven figure closed one deal right that takes creativity I've seen people do it it's extraordinary not everyone has that are they adaptable the two first sales people at ramp the first one now leads half the sales and str teams the second one is chief of staff to our CEO right they're adaptable you're hiring people not for what they can do today but people who have enormous growth potential that's how you get a 10x outcome but how do we determine what that 10x if we go to the interview process say we've let them into the interview process despite not being the traditional fed but therein we're sitting down with them what questions do we ask how do we know if that 10x is yeah you need to get really intimate you need to go deep in your interview questions get at the why not just the what so many interview questions are what did you do next what were you doing at that company what deals did you close I want to know the why I want to know the how I want to know them and get really deep to understand what makes them tick what was the reasoning behind decisions they made not just the performance

最优秀的销售人员不仅有四个H，还具备创造力。他们可以用胶带、口香糖在Zoom会议中策划一笔七位数的交易，这需要创造力。我见过一些人做到了这一点，这是非常卓越的。并非每个人都具备这种能力。他们是否具有适应性？Ramp的前两个销售人员现在一个领导了一半的销售和STR团队，另一个是我们CEO的首席幕僚。他们具有适应性。你在雇用人时，不是因为他们今天能做什么，而是因为他们具有巨大的增长潜力。这就是如何实现10倍的结果。但是，我们如何确定这个10倍呢？如果我们在面试过程中让他们进入面试过程，即使他们不是传统的满足标准，我们应该询问什么问题，我们如何知道这个10倍是否达成？你需要去深入了解。要深入提问并仔细了解他们的行为原因，而不仅仅是表现，了解他们的为什么，如何和他们有关的详细信息。

and a great way to test this is with a challenge so I know different organizations think about this differently I want them to sell to me not what they're selling today but I want them to sell my solution back to me because it shows if they can do research it shows if they can synthesize that information I know if what they're saying is correct or not I can see all of the gears turning and I can test them as well in that setting and say hey I'm a CFO we scheduled this for 45 minutes I actually only have 10 go are you adaptable can you take a punch can you give it really quickly go that's Hoshmock it happens in real life though I much rather it happened in an interview than with a real prospect I've had many sales leaders on the show say before

一个很好的测试是通过挑战，以此来测试不同的组织对此的想法不同。我希望他们向我销售的不是他们今天正在卖的东西，而是他们向我销售我的解决方案，因为这表明他们能否进行研究，显示他们能否综合信息。我知道他们说的是否正确，我可以看到所有的齿轮转动，我也可以在那种环境中测试他们，问他们：“嘿，我是首席财务官，我们安排了45分钟，但我只有10分钟的时间，你们能适应吗？你们能迅速反应吗？”这就是Hoshmock，它在现实生活中发生，但我更希望它发生在面试中而不是在真正的潜在客户那里。我在节目中邀请了许多销售领导人，他们都说过：

I like them to sell a product that they've sold before and they know because if they sell mine back to me there's this massive asymmetric knowledge one and there are two if you have any form of hiring committee who are involved they'll naturally respectfully intellectually look down on them because they just know way more given your experience compared to theirs how do you think about that pitch yours product versus pitch something they know much better I don't want you to be comfortable in that interview process selling me something that you could talk about with your eyes closed while you're sleeping I want you to have to think I want to challenge you it's a called a challenge for a reason I want to see if you can rise to that occasion enterprise sales is hard I want to see if you have what it takes to rise up and be able to perform in that setting

我喜欢让他们卖他们之前售过并且熟悉的产品，因为如果他们再把我的产品卖给我，就会存在这种巨大的不对称知识，所以，如果你有任何雇佣委员会参与其中，他们自然而然地会尊重并且在智力上轻视他们，因为相比于他们，你的经验更加丰富。那么你如何考虑自己的产品销售和他们更熟悉的产品销售之间的区别呢？我不希望你在面试过程中感到舒适，只是简单习以为常地告诉我一些东西。我希望你需要思考，我希望挑战你。这就是为什么这个挑战被称为挑战。企业销售很困难，我想看看你是否有能力在这种情况下站起来并表现出色。

would you rather a rep that you're hiring has experience. selling at that level of ACV or has experienced selling to that segment of market in terms of finance tools for me I think it's about selling enterprise deals so that value the selling to organizations that size because the scale is so different I've seen mid market account executives get promoted into enterprise in my past and flame out pretty quickly and the reason is usually they're used to a certain level of multithreading hey I need three or four people in the deal now all of a sudden everything is magnified by an order of magnitude can you play 20 simultaneous games of chess it's great that you can play chess but can you play 20 games at the same time it's much harder

你更愿意聘请一个有在那个销售额级别有经验的销售代表，还是一个有针对金融工具市场细分的销售经验的代表？对我来说，重要的是能够销售企业级交易，因为这样的价值是销售给这样规模的组织，因为规模完全不同。我曾经看到中等市场销售经理在过去被提拔到企业级市场，很快就失败了，通常原因是他们习惯了某种程度的多线程处理，需要三四个人来处理一笔交易，现在一切都被放大了几个数量级，你能同时下棋20盘吗？你能下棋，这很好，但同时下20盘就难了许多。

to what extent do you hand hold younger apps in these large deals like will see because you can't just let them run free to what extent do you do the kind of mental mentee going to all together so you need to create space for them to fail when the stakes are low so they can succeed when the stakes are high you have to be in the boat with them first of all as a sales leader my quota I've got a quota and my quota is a roll up of my reps so number one I'm in the boat with you because your performance is going to matter for my performance putting that aside I want to see everyone on my team succeed but I can't do the job for them all right I can't be in every deal in every place and every call at the same time so I need to give you the tools to succeed when I'm not there and I need to be in the boat with you and teach you mentor you throughout that process but what I've also found no matter how much you say the stove is hot people still want to touch it in order to find out that it's really hot and so it's my job to make sure the burners on simmer and not on high so it's not a catastrophic wound

在像Will See这样的大交易中，你在多大程度上会支持年轻的应聘者，因为你不能让他们随便行动？你要在多大程度上进行心理辅导？因此，你需要为他们失败创造空间，当利益不高时，可以取得成功。首先，作为销售领导者，我的任务是完成销售指标，我的指标是我的代表的总和，所以我和你在同一条船上，因为你的表现对我的表现很重要。放置这一点，我希望看到我的团队中的每个人都能成功，但我无法替他们完成所有工作。所以当我不在场时，我需要向你提供成功的工具，并在整个过程中教育和指导你，但我也发现，无论你说多少灶具很热，人们仍然想摸摸看它是否真的很热，所以我的工作是确保灶具处于小火状态，而不是高火状态，这样伤害就不会很严重。

If we're start up hiring what does that process look like? Is it like first interview, get to know you, then the why second, the case study? What does that process look like step by step? Do you think?

如果我们是初创企业招聘，招聘过程是什么样的？是先进行第一轮面试，了解你，然后进行第二轮面试，进行案例研究吗？这个招聘流程是什么样的，可以逐步介绍一下吗？你认为呢？

For me, I want to be able to qualify quickly. Is this person of the right caliber? Have they closed the right level of deals? Do they have the right experience? Do they have the right gravitas to be able to hold themselves in an executive meeting? That is usually like a 30 minute getting to know you call. Assuming that goes well, you want to go deeper. You want to spend an hour with them. You want to really go deep. You want to ask those why questions, those how questions. Really get to understand what makes them tick.

对我来说，我希望能够迅速确认一个人的资质。他们是否具备正确的能力水平？他们是否完成了正确的交易？他们是否拥有正确的经验？他们是否具备足够的重量级实力在高管会议上自信地表达自己的看法？这类通常需要花费30分钟的交流，我们需要在这个过程中了解对方。如果一切进展顺利，我们会考虑深入了解。我们会花费一小时时间真正深入了解对方，发问为什么和如何的问题，真正地了解他们的思维方式。

You want to have other stakeholders meet with them as well. Typically, in an enterprise, you're a quarterback. You're working with other people internally and externally. So how do those relationships form? Are you able to play off those dynamics? And then ultimately, yeah, you want to do a challenge with a panel of interviewees all the way up to your C-suite leadership.

你还希望让其他利益相关者与他们见面。通常，在企业中，你是一个四分卫。你与内部和外部的其他人合作。那么这些关系是如何形成的？你能够利用这些动态吗？最终，是的，你希望与一组受访者进行挑战，一直到高管领导层。

We will learn a lot from making mistakes. I know I've made many in my time. What are the biggest mistakes you've made in terms of hiring and price sales teams and how did that change how you think?

我们通过犯错误学到了很多东西。我知道我在这方面犯了很多错误。您在雇佣和定价销售团队方面犯过的最大错误是什么？这改变了您的思维方式吗？

I've certainly made mistakes. I think sometimes when you assume their experience, if you assume their fit based on where they've been or what they've accomplished in their career, you put yourself in a very risky situation where when they come in, if you haven't tested for that, they may fail. I've seen people who are extremely accomplished join organizations I've been a part of, and within six months, they're no longer in the company because they weren't able to cut it. The fit was wrong. And so you really need to test for that because the last thing you want is to waste six months of their career, of their time, and six months of your runway and six months of your time on someone who isn't a fit.

我肯定犯过错误。我认为有时候当你假设他们的经验或者基于他们过去做过什么以及在事业上获得的成就而假定他们适合某个职位时，你会陷入很高风险的境地，因为当他们进来后，如果你没有进行过测试，他们可能会失败。我见过一些非常有成就的人加入我所在的组织，在六个月内就不再在公司了，因为他们无法胜任。适合与否是错误的。因此，你真的需要进行测试，因为你最不希望的是浪费别人六个月的职业生涯和时间以及你自己六个月的时间和支付六个月的薪水却得不到对应价值。

Before we dive into kind of that integration with the existing team, which is so important doing the onboarding, I do just want to close. We go through that process and we get to the deal itself of kind of the package. What are some of your biggest lessons and pieces of advice to founders on giving the right comp structure for those early sales repires?

在我们深入讨论重要的融入现有团队的过程之前，我只是想简单地概括一下。我们会经历这个过程，并且到达与套餐有关的交易本身。对于创始人们为早期销售代表制定正确的补偿结构的建议和经验有哪些？

I think when it comes especially to early sales hires, there's not enough emphasis placed on equity in sales. They give out equity for other roles, and I think equity is often something that founders don't really think of when it comes to salespeople. They really only think about cash compensation. That's the wrong approach. If you're hiring a 10x salesperson, someone who's going to be with you for a long time and drive an inordinate amount of impact in the organization, you should want to keep them for a long time.

我认为特别是在早期的销售人员招聘方面，股权并没有得到足够的重视。他们会为其他职位提供股权，而我认为创始人在考虑销售人员时通常并不会考虑股权。他们真正关注的只有现金报酬。这是错误的做法。如果你要招聘一位10倍销售员，这个人将长期与你在一起，在组织中产生巨大影响，你应该希望长期留住他们。

And they're going to be able to see the impact of their revenue-generating activities on the company all the way up to raising funds. And we just need to get more creative and we need to find a path forward. And so when you have people who can drive an impact like that and put an entire team or company on their back, you want to reward them. Cash is great, we all like cash. Sales reps are coin-operated, I get it. But you want them to be bought into the long-term vision as well. And it needs to be aligned with what the company cares about. To hit those targets, they need to have targets in the first place.

他们将能够看到他们的收入生成活动对公司的影响，直至筹集资金。我们需要更有创意，找到前进的道路。当有人能够带来这样的影响并让整个团队或公司依靠他们，你将想要奖励他们。现金是很好的，我们都喜欢现金。销售代表是硬币操作的，我明白。但你也希望他们能够对长期愿景有所投入。并且它需要与公司关心的事情相一致。为了达到目标，首先需要设定目标。

How do you advise me on setting quota, especially in a year like this year where it's so fucking uncertain? I set a quota for the media company and we're like 250% over target now that in whatever four months in. Clearly, I was just shit at setting quota, to be honest. I didn't know what was going to happen. How do you advise founders on how to set quota accurately and efficiently?

您如何建议我在这样一个非常不确定的一年中设定配额，特别是关于如何精准高效地设定配额？我为媒体公司设定了一个配额，现在在四个月内我们已超过目标的250％。显然，我在设定配额上非常糟糕，实话实说，我不知道会发生什么。您如何建议创始人精确高效地设定配额？

You need to in the early days figure out what is the goal that the board is setting for you or that you're sharing with the board. Number one, is it realistic? Is it achievable? Work backward from that goal. Working backward is something that I often teach to my teams. Okay, here's the goal that we're trying to get to. If we're just driving toward it in a forward direction, we may drive off a cliff, and if you don't want to end up like Thelma and Louise, then what you need to do is work backward so you know where the cliffs are, you know where the landmines are, you know where the traps are, and you can find, hey, is there one path, is there no path, are there multiple paths to get there? And then you can move forward. If you work backward from that goal, regardless of how lofty it is, you can figure out the way to achieve it.

在早期，你需要确定董事会设定的目标或你与董事会分享的目标是什么。首先，这个目标是否现实可行？要从这个目标倒推。倒推是我常常教导我的团队的一件事情。好的，这就是我们要达到的目标。如果我们只是朝着这个目标前进，我们可能会开车冲下悬崖。如果你不想像“末路狂花”里的主角们那样走向死亡，那么你需要倒推，这样你就会知道悬崖在哪里，地雷在哪里，陷阱在哪里，然后你可以找到一条路径，或许有多个路径可以到达目的地。然后你可以前进。如果你从这个目标倒推，不管这个目标有多高，你都可以找到达成它的方法。

The other thing that's really critical here is pipeline generation. If you have a massive amount of pipeline, you are able to qualify deeply and make sure that you're going to hit the goals that you've set for yourself. This is something that I instill in my teams, and I'm proud to say that this quarter, the enterprise team at ramp is trending to hit more than 300% of their quota, which is pretty insane.

另一个非常关键的事情就是销售渠道的生成。如果你有大量的销售渠道，你就能够深入了解并确保你能够达到为自己设定的目标。这是我向我的团队灌输的一种理念。我很自豪地说，本季度，Ramp公司的企业团队正在努力实现其指标的300%以上，这相当于一项疯狂的成绩。

Do you think traditional sales outbound is dead, and why does no one in sales want to do traditional outbound anymore? Traditional outbound is the most important thing, Harry, and if you're not doing it, you are doing sales wrong. And the reason why is because pipeline is the most important thing if you want to hit your quota, as we just established, and the way that you build pipeline is throughout reach. The founder that I mentor, he pg'd into me, he called/message me, without that I wouldn't be mentoring him. We have so many opportunities that are in our pipeline because we did the hard thing; we picked up the phone, we sent out an email, we were persistent with it because usually it takes about five messages before someone is going to respond.

你认为传统的销售外呼已经死亡了，为什么现在没有人想做传统外呼了呢？哈利，传统外呼是最重要的事情，如果你现在不做这个，你就做错了销售。原因是管道是最重要的，如果你想达到销售目标，刚刚我们已经确定了这一点，而建立管道的方式是通过达到更多潜在客户。我指导的创始人，他通过邮件/短信联系我，如果没有这个，我就不可能指导他了。我们有很多机会在我们的管道中，因为我们做了困难的事情，我们拿起电话，发了电子邮件，并保持了坚持，因为通常需要五条信息才能引起某人的回应。

And ultimately, we feel good about it because we're providing a solution for them that helps them. We're not trying to sell them something that they don't need, and so if you think of it from that standpoint, what you're doing when you're picking up the phone is something that's good for you and it's good for the people that you're calling. So glad to hear people run away from things that are painful, and outbound can just be continuous punches in the face, and so I think it's nice to stay in the warm and cozy environment that is warm inbound.

最终，我们感觉很好，因为我们为客户提供了一个解决方案，帮助他们解决问题。我们不是试图向他们推销不必要的东西，所以如果你从这个角度来看，打电话时你所做的事情既对你有益，也对你所拨打的人有益。很高兴听到人们避开那些痛苦的事情，而对外呼来说，可能会像连续的拳击一样痛苦，所以我认为待在舒适的温暖内部环境中是非常好的。

Going back to the kind of integration into the team, I think onboarding is just chronically poorly done. How do you think about the right way to onboard new sales reps into your team and how do you do it today? I think it needs to be a mix of structured learning and unstructured learning, so asynchronous learning. I think there needs to be a fair amount where they're going to be shadowing the best reps on calls. I think you need to dig in with them and go deep on a daily and weekly basis, so one-on-one coaching as well, and you need to make them drink from the fire hose.

回到团队集成的方式，我认为新员工入职培训一直做得很差。你如何考虑将新销售代表纳入团队的正确方法，今天你如何做到呢？我认为需要进行有结构的学习和无结构的学习，也就是异步学习。他们需要跟着最好的销售代表进行电话拜访。我认为你需要与他们密切合作，进行每日和每周的深入培训，也需要进行一对一指导，并让他们从“消防栓”中吸取经验。

I know we try to limit that as companies get larger, where hey we're going to give them this nice kushy ramp-up period, but you're going to find out a lot those first few weeks about their ability to run at pace, if they can drink from the fire hose and start to synthesize that information. So I'm a big believer that the training wheels need to come off quickly. I do think there's benefit as well to giving them what I'd call t-ball opportunities.

我知道随着公司变得越来越大，我们会试图限制初期的时间，让员工有一个愉快的适应期。但你会在前几周找出他们是否有能力跟上步伐、是否能够快速消化所得到的信息。因此，我坚信需要很快地摘掉训练轮。同样地，我认为会给他们一些所谓的T球机会也有好处。

So if you're an enterprise, you don't want to risk some massive deal by giving it to the guy who just or the woman who just started. You need to be able to give them a smaller opportunity that's safe, that's a safe place for them to iterate and figure out the motion before they're getting into these really large complex deals. What are the biggest red flags that you traditionally see in the first 30 days? I think people often say higher-fast fire-fast. I think we'd probably agree higher-slow fire-fast.

如果您是企业，您不希望将一些重大的交易风险交给刚刚开始的人。您需要能够给他们一个较小的机会，这是一个安全的地方让他们反复试验和找到正确的方向，然后再进入这些非常大而复杂的交易。您通常在最初30天内会看到的最大红旗是什么？我想人们经常说快速招人快速解雇。我想我们可能会同意慢慢招人，但是解雇要快。

If we agree with that, what are the big red flags that like okay you need to step in and do something? I recognize that not everyone is a type 8 personality and gregarious even in sales, but if someone is not asking a lot of questions, if they're not vocal in that first month or two, to me that's a red flag that I want to at least dig into. It's not a sign hey we need to fire them because they didn't ask questions; it's hey are they not asking questions because they understand everything? Bravo brilliant, go forth and prosper.

如果我们同意这个观点，那么有哪些大红旗提示我们需要介入并采取行动呢？我知道并非每个人都具有8型人格和在销售中外向的特点，但是如果有人在前一个月或两个月内没有提出很多问题，如果他们不太主动，那对我来说就是一个警示信号，我至少要深入调查一下。这并不意味着我们需要开除他们，因为他们没有问问题; 而是要问一下，他们不问问题是因为他们已经了解了一切吗？如果是这样，那太好了，拥抱这样一个聪明的人吧，让他成功。

Or they're not asking questions because they don't actually even know what questions to ask and is it an aptitude issue or an attitude issue? You need to understand that if you want to try to fix it, and in some cases, you're right it's higher slow and fire-fast if someone can't make it. The merciful thing to do is to let them go so that they can go to a place where they can be powerful, efficient, and grow their career.

或许是因为他们根本不知道该问什么问题，是能力问题还是态度问题？如果您想要解决这个问题，就需要理解其中的原因。在某些情况下，如果有人无法胜任工作，那么最好的方式就是慢慢升级替代，快速开除。这样做是为了让他们去到一个更适合他们的地方，使他们能够更有力、高效地发展自己的职业生涯。

How do you see the real quality of a candidate? What I mean by that is like I've had sales these on the show say before the person that sold Twilio to Uber when they were a tiny startup, it's probably the best deal in enterprise history, and it transformed obviously from a startup to an enterprise deal, but at the time it was a nothing deal, and it was probably stunned by a credit card. Almost like how relevant is deal attribution to you and determining quality of candidate.

你是怎么看待候选人真正的素质的？我的意思是，就像我在节目中遇到的销售人员说的那样，他曾经将Twilio卖给Uber，当时它只是一个小型创业公司，但这可能是企业历史上最好的交易之一，显然，它从创业公司变成了企业交易，但当时它只是一个微不足道的交易，可能只是用信用卡付款。就像交易归因对你来说有多重要，以确定候选人的素质一样。

I'm just too interested that it's why you need to ask those why questions, Harry. Some companies are great at product-led growth, and they're selling to an organization when it's an SMB. At what point did you sell to that organization? Was it a 10 person company that grew to a 10,000 person company, or did you sell to them net new when they were 10,000 people? Did you sell wall to wall? across the entire organization or was it a land and expand motion who else was involved with you in selling that deal you need to dig in to understand did they do all of the work did they generate that deal themselves was itself source or did an SDR make a cold call and that's how it happened where did marketing generate the lead and it came inbound in terms of I'm digging in on the deal and the deal dynamics that I think deal reviews are so important whether successful or not successful how do you do deal reviews how often do you do them who's invited who sets the agenda I'm an early stage founder educate me I think you should do a deal review for any deal that is going to be impactful toward you hitting your goal for that quarter or that year period and that means that you're probably doing more deal reviews than you're typically anticipating you need to give time for that if you're not digging in with your rep and understanding the deal dynamics what could go wrong what needs to happen the various stakeholders have you mapped the organization and getting really into the details then you're putting yourself at risk because that deal could slip that deal could end up as a closed lost and if you were counting on that if you were committing that opportunity man that is an unpleasant place to be I can tell you it has happened in my career a long time ago when you commit a big deal and then it doesn't come through that's a painful experience for everyone you don't want to be living like that what are the biggest reasons the delays today in my experience when you do lose to competition you can lose for a variety of reasons one it could be price and if you're selling something to someone who's really price sensitive and you haven't sold the value and articulated it you can have someone come in and offer a product for free or offer it for a really low price and that company may grow to regret that decision but ultimately they might make that decision you could get outflanked you have a champion but you know what they've got a champion that's more senior and so the more senior person who's got more influence in the organization is potentially going to win there are a variety of reasons you could lose but you need to map the organization you need to understand the dynamics at play

我非常感兴趣，这就是你需要问那些为什么问题的原因，哈利。有些公司非常擅长产品导向增长，并且它们向SMB销售。你是在什么时候向那个组织销售的？是一个10人的公司成长到一万人的公司，还是当他们是一万人时就向他们销售了？你卖给了整个组织还是进行了拓展性运动？还有谁参与了你的销售交易？你需要深入了解他们是否做了所有的工作，他们是否自己产生了这笔交易，还是SDR打了一个冷电话，然后它的发生就是这样的？市场营销在哪里产生了潜在客户？在我深入研究交易和交易动态方面，我认为交易评估非常重要，无论成功还是不成功。你怎么做交易评估？你多久做一次？谁被邀请？谁制定议程？作为一位初创企业的创始人，请教我。我认为，对于任何将对你达成季度或年度目标产生重大影响的交易，你都应该进行交易评估，这意味着你可能会做更多的交易评估，而你通常不会预期。你需要留出时间，如果你不与你的销售代表深入挖掘和了解交易动态，什么事情可能会出错？需要发生什么？各个利益相关者是谁？你是否已经细致地绘制出组织的地图和详细的情况？那么你就会面临风险，因为这笔交易可能会失去，最终成为一个失败的交易，如果你在计划中依赖于这笔交易，那么这会是一个令人不愉快的地方。我可以告诉你，这在我的职业生涯中曾经发生过很长一段时间，当你承诺一个大生意，然后它不成交，这是一个令人痛苦的经历，对所有人都是如此。你不想生活在这样的状态下，今天延迟的最大原因是什么？根据我的经验，当你输给竞争对手时，你可能会因各种原因而输掉。首先，可能是价格问题，如果你向一个非常关心价格的人销售产品而没有销售价值并且表述它，那么就可能会有人来提供一个免费或非常低廉的价格，而这家公司可能会因此而后悔，但最终他们可能会做出这个决定。你可能会被挤出市场，你有一个支持者，但你知道他们有一个更高级别的支持者，所以拥有更多影响力的组织中的更高级别的人员可能会成为赢家。你输掉的原因有很多，但你需要绘制组织图，了解所涉及的动态。

Final one, I promise. I'm just firing like interest questions. I don't know, but it's like when you do enterprise sales really well, it's this tailored boutique feeling for the customer. How do you do the handoff between sales wrap and enterprise sales leader to customer success team/customer experience team without it feeling like "oh good luck, off to mark?" Yeah, if you're doing it badly, it's "hey I'm handing you off over here, see ya." That's not the way it should go. You need to be introducing that implementation and that CS team before the deal is ever closed. Implementation onboarding, how we're going to make you successful as a customer, is part of the sales process, and so you want to bring them in to be able to walk them through what the implementation plan looks like, what does success look like, what are you trying to solve for, where are you at today, and what does good look like? What are your goals? And once we're aligned on all of that, and there's some overlap here between the sales team and NCS, now you feel more comfortable moving forward with us, and when you do, you already have this relationship formed with the team you're going to be working with to make you successful.

这是最后一个问题，我想问一些有趣的问题。我不知道，但是好像当你做企业销售做得很好时，会给客户带来一种量身定制的精品感觉。那么，如何在销售人员和企业销售领导与客户成功团队/客户体验团队之间进行交接，而不会让他们感觉像是“祝你好运，去吧？”如果你做得不好，那就是“嘿，我把你交到这里了，再见。”这不应该是交接的方式。你需要在合约达成之前介绍实施和客户成功团队，实施的启动，如何使客户成功，是销售过程的一部分，因此你要让他们参与进来，向他们展示实施计划看起来像什么，成功看起来像什么，你试图解决什么问题，你现在处于什么位置，良好的状态是什么？当我们在所有这些方面保持一致，销售团队和NCS之间存在一些重叠，你就会更加舒适地与我们合作，当你这样做时，你已经与你要与之合作以使你成功的团队建立了关系。

Should CS also get commissioned if their broadened pre-sales being concluded and a part of that closing mechanism? That's a great question. Typically, they end up being compensated in a slightly different way, which is that CS often in most organizations are going to be compensated based on adoption. At least in companies that are based on usage. Are you seeing that adoption curve? Are you seeing full adoption? So that's how they're going to get paid. Ultimately, by helping to bring in a deal and seeing that adoption happen, they are going to be compensated for it.

如果客户成功接受并实施了销售前的扩展方案，客户成功经理（CS）是否应该获得佣金呢？这是一个很好的问题。通常情况下，CS会以稍微不同的方式获得补偿，即在大多数组织中，基于使用情况的公司通常会根据客户的采用情况来补偿CS。您是否看到采用曲线？您是否看到了所有的采用？那么，他们将会获得报酬。通过帮助促成交易并见证采用情况发生，他们最终会因此获得报酬。

Mark, I've just so enjoyed this. I'm going to do a quick fire around with you now. So, I'm gonna fire questions at you very much like I have been doing for the last hour, to be honest. I'm gonna call it a quick fire round because I'm good at marketing, and you're gonna give me immediate thoughts. So, let's start with what sales tactics have not changed over the last five years? The fundamentals, cold calling, cold emailing, that pipeline generation, qualification, champion building, getting to the EB. It'll never change.

马克，我非常喜欢这个节目。现在我会和你做一个快速问答环节。就像我在过去一小时中一直在做的那样，我会向你发问。我把它叫做快速问答环节，因为我擅长营销，你需要立即给出想法。所以我们从问什么销售策略在过去五年中没有改变开始？基本原则是冷呼叫，冷邮件，管道生成，资格认证，冠军构建，达成EB。这些基本原则永远不会改变。

What sales tactics have died a death? It pains me to say it, but I think in-person meetings. It's not that it's died. I think it's on life support. Video conferencing, digital whiteboarding, sales intelligence tools, they're all built so we can collaborate and be productive in a remote first world. But it can sometimes create this soul-crushing reality where human interaction becomes transactional instead of deep. Really. So even for large six-figure enterprise deals, human interaction in-person is not required?

哪些销售策略已经死亡了？我很痛心地说，我认为面对面的会议策略已经没落。并不是说它已经死了，我认为它是处于生命支撑状态。视频会议，数字白板和销售智能工具都是为了让我们在远程第一的世界中能够协作并提高工作效率。但是这有时会导致人际互动变得形式化而不是深度的现实，真的。因此，即使是大规模的六位数企业交易，面对面的人际互动也并非必需的吗？

It hasn't been required the last few years. I miss it. I love it. I will take every opportunity to meet clients where they are, but I think it's a dying art. Does the CEO always have to be involved in sales to some extent if you have Amazon moving, that's a bold one, but Amazon moving to Ramp with 500 thousand employees, does Eric still need to be getting on a jet? I think so. I think with any kind of really large company trajectory-changing deal, you want not just the CEO, but you want the entire executive team to be involved.

这已经不需要几年了。我很想念它，我喜欢它。我会尽可能利用一切机会去见客户，但我认为这是一门垂死的艺术。如果你要引入亚马逊这样的大公司，那CEO是否总要在一定程度上参与销售？这是一项大胆的决定，但如果亚马逊要在Ramp地区新设50万员工，Eric是否还需要坐飞机去拜访？我认为是的。我认为在任何一项真正影响公司轨迹的大交易中，你不仅需要CEO，还需要整个高管团队参与其中。

What would you say is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring sales teams? I think again it's about trying to hire people who fit inside a box with their preconceived notions every time. That's going to end up biting you in the butt. What one piece of advice on the flip side of the table would you give to a sales leader starting a new role today? Always look to raise the bar. Don't settle for b-players. I've made that mistake myself. I now have a rule which is that each subsequent hire has to raise the bar for the entire team. If they don't have the potential to be as good or meaningfully better than everyone else in seat, why are you hiring them?

创始人在雇用销售团队时最大的错误是什么？我认为是试图每次都用他们预设的概念来招聘符合某种标准的人。这样做最终会让你吃亏。如果你是一位销售领导者，你会给那些刚入职的人什么建议？始终要提高标准，不要满足于招聘B级别的人员。我自己也犯过这样的错误。现在我有了一个规则，即每次招聘都必须使整个团队的标准提高。如果他们没有成为在座其他人的好坏程度相当或更有意义的提升，那么你为什么要雇用他们呢？

What would you best like to change in the world of sales today, Mark? The perception of it. There's science behind great sales. It's not some parlor trick. Sales is often deeply misunderstood by those and other roles, and I think if you step back and look at all of the processes behind it, there's real science. How do you maintain morale when goes a mist in a sales team? It's tough because you want to maintain morale, but you don't want to create a culture of accepting fate. You have to start with understanding why it happened, who's responsible, how do you ensure it never happens again, and the answer inevitably is pipeline coverage. And whose responsibility is that? Harry.

马克，今天你最想在销售领域改变什么？我想改变人们对销售的看法。伟大的销售背后有科学的原理，它并不是什么把戏。销售在许多角色中往往被深刻误解，如果你退一步看一下它背后的所有过程，就会发现有真正的科学。当销售团队出了问题时，如何保持士气？这是很棘手的，因为你要保持士气，但又不想创建接受命运的文化。你必须从了解为什么会发生这种情况开始，谁对此负责，如何确保它永远不会再次发生，不可避免的答案是管道覆盖率。这是谁的责任？哈里的。

Final one, my friend. What one company sales strategy have you been most impressed by recently? I think anyone who's executing right now and exceeding their goals. Outside of generative AI, which I think has a very unique tailwind, they're doing something right. Starling's performance has been especially impressive, given they fly under the radar, which is on for a company that dots the skies.

最后一个问题，我的朋友。最近你最受印象的公司销售策略是什么？我认为那些正在执行并超额完成目标的公司都很值得关注。除了我认为具有独特的顺风因素的生成式人工智能，他们做对了一些事情。Starling的表现尤其令人印象深刻，考虑到他们在低调中飞行，这对于一家活跃在天空的公司来说是非常难得的。

I love. that night totally agree with you this has been such a joy to do thank you so much for doing this and I've loved having you on my pleasure Harry thanks so much.

我爱你。那晚我完全同意你的想法。这是一种巨大的愉悦，非常感谢你做这件事，我很高兴能有你的帮助，哈利，非常感谢。

I absolutely love that and if you want to see the transcript for the show stay you can sign up for the newsletter on 20vc.com or watch the whole show on youtube by searching for 20vc but before we leave it today you might remember in our amazing episode with Maggie hot she mentioned a tool she could not live without called focus.

我非常喜欢这个节目。如果你想看节目的文字稿，你可以在20vc.com上注册新闻通讯。或者你可以在YouTube上搜索20vc，观看整个节目。但在今天我们结束之前，你可能会记得在我们与Maggie Hot的精彩节目中，她提到了一款她无法离开的工具，叫做Focus。

What is focus or focus is a revenue data platform that makes it easy for go-to-market teams to analyze visualize and action data about their prospects and customers without needing engineers focus helps companies like Miro, Webflow, Loom and Superhuman focus their sales and success teams on the highest priority opportunities by surfacing insights at the right moment so wraps can take action quickly focus gives you a 360 degree view into product usage empowering you to act on insights and fill your funnel efficiently sales teams save 10 plus hours per week digging through data to surface millions of new revenue opportunities learn more about why top PLG businesses trust focus as their revenue data platform by visiting focus.com forward slash demo.

What is Focus？Focus是一个收入数据平台，可让市场推广团队轻松分析、可视化和操作关于潜在客户和客户的数据，无需工程师。Focus帮助像Miro、Webflow、Loom和Superhuman这样的公司，通过在正确的时刻呈现洞见，使销售和成功团队专注于最高优先级的机会，以便快速采取行动。Focus让您对产品使用情况有360度的了解，使您能够根据洞见采取行动并有效地填充您的漏斗。销售团队每周可以节省超过10小时的挖掘数据的时间，以便快速发现数百万新的收入机会。了解更多关于为什么顶级PLG企业信任Focus作为他们的收入数据平台，访问focus.com/demo。

And sales off is the leading sales engagement platform helping sales teams drive more revenue with the modern revenue workspace it's the one place sales teams can go to prospect manage active deals and get the insights they need to coach seller performance forecast with accuracy and find out what steps to take to close more deals some of the world's leading companies like Google Shopify and Stripe all love a new sales loft and so can you it's the new way to sell find out more at salesloft.com.

"销售关闭是领先的销售互动平台，可以帮助销售团队在现代化的营收工作区域中推动更多的营收。这是销售团队可以去找流量、管理积极交易，并获得他们需要的洞察力来指导销售员表现，准确预测，并找出应采取哪些步骤来接近更多的交易的唯一地方。像谷歌、Shopify、Stripe等世界领先的公司都喜欢销售关闭的新工具，您也可以使用它，这是一种新的销售方式。请访问salesloft.com了解更多信息。"

As always I so appreciate all your support my conway to bring you an incredible episode with Tom Tungers discussing his new incredible fund theory ventures.

一如既往地，我非常感激您的支持，来支持我的康威节目，与汤姆·通格斯讨论他的新惊人的基金理论冒险，我将为您呈现一个非常棒的节目。