$46B of hard truths: Why founders fail and why you need to run toward fear | Ben Horowitz (a16z)
发布时间 2025-09-11 11:00:37 来源
摘要
Ben Horowitz is the co-founder of Andreessen Horowitz, Silicon Valley's largest and most influential venture capital firm, with over ...
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The worst thing that you do as a leader is you hesitate on the next decision. The thing that causes you to hesitate is both decisions are hard. Probably one of my bigger ones on that was we went public with two million dollars in failing 12 months revenue at 18 months old. That's obviously a bad idea. But the truth of it was the alternative was going bankrupt and that's a worse side. It's very difficult and painful to be a CEO, to be a founder. In spite of that, so many people want to start companies. The psychological muscle you have to build be a great leader is to be able to click in the abyss and go okay. That way is slightly better. We're going to go that way. If everybody agrees with the decision, then you didn't have any value because they would have done that without you. So the only value you ever add is when you make a decision that most people don't like.
作为领导者，最糟糕的事情就是在下一步决策上犹豫不决。犹豫的原因是两种选择都很艰难。我自己遇到过的一个重大决策是，我们在创立18个月时，公司在过去12个月里只有两百万美元的收入，但我们选择了上市。显然这是一个糟糕的主意，但事实上，另一种选择是破产，那更糟糕。成为CEO或创始人是非常困难且痛苦的。尽管如此，很多人仍想创办公司。要成为一名出色的领导者，心理上必须具备的一项能力就是面对无尽的困难时，能够很快判断出哪条路稍微好一点，并果断做出选择。如果每个人都赞同你的决策，那么说明你没有真正创造价值，因为没有你，他们也会做出同样的选择。所以，你唯一能够增加价值的时候，就是在做出一个大多数人并不赞同的决定。
You are famous for writing one of the most popular pieces of literature for product managers. What I was trying to get out and good product manager, bad product manager was the job is fundamentally the leadership job and it's a tricky leadership job because nobody is actually reporting to you. There's always this kind of sense that the PM is not the mini-CO, how dare you call yourself that. I actually think that's exactly what the PM is. It doesn't matter if you write a good spack or you have a good interview or you do this or do that. What matters is that the product works. Today my guest is Ben Horowitz. Ben is the Z in A16Z. The world's largest venture capital firm with over 46 billion dollars in committed capital. Their investors in OpenAI, cursor, andral, data bricks, Figma, basically every generational tech company. He's also the author of Tuneer Times Bessling Books. The hard thing about hard things and what you do is who you are.
您因撰写了一篇关于产品经理的流行文章而闻名。我想要表达的是，好的产品经理和不好的产品经理之间的区别在于，这份工作本质上是一个领导职位，而它又是一个棘手的领导工作，因为实际上没有人直接向您汇报工作。总有人认为产品经理不是迷你CEO，怎么敢这样称呼自己。但我实际上认为产品经理就是这样一个角色。撰写好的规格文档、进行好的面试或做这做那都不重要，重要的是产品是否成功。
今天我的嘉宾是本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）。他是A16Z（安德森·霍洛维茨）的创始人之一。这是全球最大的风投公司之一，管理着超过460亿美元的资金。他们投资了OpenAI、Cursor、Andreai、Databricks、Figma等几乎所有具有跨时代意义的科技公司。他还是《艰难事务的艰难之处》和《你所作之事就是你之所是》两本畅销书的作者。
Ben is endlessly fascinating. He started a rap group when he was younger. He started his career as a product manager and wrote the now famous good product manager, bad product manager piece. In our wide ranging conversation, we cover a ton of ground and Ben shares stories and insights that he's never shared anywhere else. A huge thank you to Shaka, Sanghor, Oli Goatsy, and Adam Newman for suggesting topics for this conversation. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year-free of 15 incredible products, including a year-free of lovable, replete, bolt, and 8N linear, superhuman, de-script, whisperflow, gamma, proflexity, warp, granola, magic patterns, raycasts, chap here, d and mobbing. Check it out at Lenny's newsletter.com and click product pass.
本的故事真是让人着迷。他年轻时成立了一个说唱团体，后来开始了作为产品经理的职业生涯，并且撰写了广为流传的《优秀产品经理与糟糕产品经理》一文。在我们广泛的交流中，我们谈到了很多话题，Ben分享了一些他从未在其他地方透露过的故事和见解。非常感谢Shaka、Sanghor、Oli Goatsy和Adam Newman提出的话题建议。如果你喜欢这个播客，不要忘记在你常用的播客应用或YouTube上订阅关注，这对我们帮助很大。而如果你成为我新闻通讯的年度订阅者，你可以免费获得15款超棒产品一年的使用权，其中包括Lovable、Replete、Bolt和8N Linear、Superhuman、De-Script、Whisperflow、Gamma、Proflexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycasts、Chap Here、D以及Mobbing。访问Lenny's Newsletter网站并点击“Product Pass”进行查看。
With that, I bring you Ben Horowitz. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers, to thrive in the AI era. Organizations need to adapt quickly, but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, booking.com, Adian, and Intercom, get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com slash Lenny. That's getdx.com slash Lenny.
接下来，我为大家介绍本·霍洛维茨。今天的节目由DX赞助，这是一个由顶尖研究人员设计的开发者智能平台，旨在助力企业在人工智能时代蓬勃发展。组织需要快速适应，但许多领导者难以回答一些关键问题，比如哪些工具有效？这些工具是如何使用的？真正带来价值的是什么？DX为领导者提供所需的数据和见解，以应对这种转变。借助DX，像Dropbox、booking.com、Adyen和Intercom这样的公司可以深入了解人工智能如何为其开发人员创造价值，以及人工智能对工程生产力的实际影响。想要了解更多信息，请访问DX网站：getdx.com/Lenny。网址是getdx.com/Lenny。
This episode is brought to you by Basecamp. Basecamp is the famously straightforward project management system from 37 signals. Most project management systems are either inadequate or frustratingly complex, but Basecamp is refreshingly clear. It's simple to get started, easy to organize, and Basecamp's visual tools help you see exactly what everyone is working on, and how all work is progressing. Keep all your files and conversations about projects directly connected to the projects themselves so that you always know where stuff is, and you're not constantly switching contexts. Running a business is hard. Managing your projects should be easy. I've been a longtime fan of what 37 signals has been up to, and I'm really excited to be sharing this with you. Sign up for a free account at basecamp.com slash Lenny. Get somewhere with Basecamp.
本集节目由Basecamp赞助。Basecamp是来自37signals的著名且直观的项目管理系统。大多数项目管理系统要么功能不足，要么过于复杂，而Basecamp则清晰简洁。它上手简单、组织方便，而且Basecamp的可视化工具可以让你准确了解每个人在做什么，以及工作的进展情况。将所有与项目相关的文件和对话直接连接到项目本身，以便你始终知道东西在哪里，而不必不断切换环境。经营企业很难，管理项目应该简单。我一直以来都是37signals的忠实粉丝，很高兴能与您分享这个工具。在basecamp.com slash Lenny上注册一个免费账户，体验Basecamp的非凡之处。
Ben, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. All right, thank you Lenny. So I have to be here. I'm even more excited to have you here. I want to start with a question that a close friend of yours suggested I ask you, Shaka Singh Hor. So Shaka, he's like, we could do an hour just on how interesting this guy is in the 80s. He's very, very, very, so we're not going to do that. Just to give a glimpse, he was in prison for 19 years. He was in solitary for seven years. He led a huge prison gang. He wrote about him in your book as a great example or great culture in the prison gang that he ran. So interesting. But something that he learned from you that he told me I need to ask you about is about success and how to be successful and how it's not what people think. And he said that you learned this lesson from a pilot. What is that story? What is that lesson?
本，非常感谢你来到这里。欢迎参加我们的播客。好的，谢谢你，伦尼。我非常高兴能来到这里。在开始之前，我想问你一个问题，这是你的一个好朋友沙卡·辛格·霍尔建议我问的。沙卡说，我们可以花一个小时只是谈论你在80年代是多么有趣，但我们不会那样做。只提供一点信息，他在监狱里待了19年，其中有7年是在单独监禁。他领导了一个大型监狱帮派，并且在你的书中写到他是一个很好的例子，展示了他领导的监狱帮派中的文化，非常有趣。但是，他从你那学到了一件事，他告诉我一定要向你询问，就是关于成功以及如何取得成功，这和人们通常想的不一样。他说你是从一位飞行员那学到这个教训的。那是什么故事？那个教训是什么？
It's kind of, I mean, I'd say it's a long life lesson, but the pilot story is, I actually, I asked people silly questions sometimes when they meet them and so I met this gentleman who was a pilot and was right around the time JFK Jr. crashed his airplane and ultimately died. And I asked him, I was like, what happened? Because there's always the story in the press, and I know this from them writing about me or anything, it's always what's the best narrative, not what's true. So you can never kind of actually find out what happened. You just find the like the best story version of what happened.
这有点像，我是说，这是一段漫长的人生课，但关于飞行员的故事是这样的，我有时候在认识新朋友时会问一些傻问题。那时我遇到一位先生，他是个飞行员，那正是JFK Jr.坠机并最终丧生的时候。我就问他，到底发生了什么？因为媒体报道中总是有个故事，而我知道，从他们写我或者其他人时，通常关注的是最佳叙述，而不是事实，所以你永远无法真正弄清楚到底发生了什么。你只是找到版本最动人的故事罢了。
And you know, the story in the press was all about, oh, he wasn't trained on instruments. Instrumentation was flying at night and I wanted to know was that right in the pilot. So well, he said really, it's like all plane crashes are a series of bad decisions. And none of the decisions by themselves is that bad, but when you add the muckets, so the first decision was he needed to get wherever he was going and that was the priority. And in flying, that can't ever be the priority. You know, because there are conditions, there are things that happen. And then the second one was, well, like his timing of when the sun would go down was wrong. So he thought he'd be flying in sunlight and he wasn't.
你知道，媒体报道的故事都是关于，他没有经过仪表训练。仪表飞行是在晚上进行的，我想知道这是否是飞行员的责任。他说，实际上，所有飞机失事都是一系列错误决定的结果。每一个决定本身都不算太糟糕，但当你把它们加在一起时，问题就出现了。第一个决定是，他必须到达目的地，而且这是优先事项。然而，在飞行中，这永远不能是优先事项，因为会有很多状况和突发事件。然后，第二个问题是，他对太阳下山时间的判断错误。他原以为会在日光下飞行，但实际上不是。
And then, you know, once he got up there, it was, you know, when the plane was, you know, going down, kind of making it go up was a bad decision because he was upside down. And like, you know, so it was, and I can't remember all the things, but this guy had like 17 steps, you know, 17 bad decisions in a row. And the big thing for me that I felt was really true is it's, you know, one decision leads to another. And so, you know, if you can break, you know, psychologically, you can take the sunk cost. Then that gets you out of a lot of bad pass.
然后，你知道的，当他上去的时候，飞机正开始下坠，而试图让它上升是个糟糕的决定，因为他是倒着的。而且，你知道，我记不清所有细节了，但这个人做了大约17个错误的决定，一连串的失误。对我来说，真正重要的是，一个决定往往会引发下一个决定。所以，如果你能在心理上打破这种锁定心态，不把已经付出的成本当回事，就能避免走很多错误的路。
And then, you know, a little good decision may be difficult, but you have to believe it's going to lead to the next one. And, you know, a lot of successes about that, you know, it's a small thing, a small thing that's hard to do that doesn't seem to have a high impact. But it leads to the next small heart to do thing. And then eventually, you get an outcome. So that was kind of the concept. So the lesson there is just successes, just a bunch of little things. It's not this like, who I got here in a big thing.
然后，你知道，一个小的正确决定可能很难，但你必须相信它会带来下一个正确的选择。很多成功就是这样积累起来的。它可能是一个微小的、看起来影响不大的事情，但是它会带来下一个同样不容易的小事。最终，你会得到一个好的结果。所以，这个概念的核心就是，成功其实是由一堆小事堆积而成的，并不是那种轰轰烈烈的瞬间到达。
Yeah, when somebody were to write a story about me, they would be like, then bend it this really smart thing and blah, blah, blah, you know, happy ending. But, you know, it really wasn't like that. And I'm thinking it's like that for you or anybody. And, you know, I spent a lot of time with Shaka on, you know, how, because it's always your own psychology that, you know, gets you. One of the kind of most insightful things she said to me is, you know, excuse me, most people who are in solitary for seven years, that's it. You're insane.
当有人为我写故事时，他们可能会描述得很美好，比如说“然后他做了一个非常聪明的事情，等等，最后有了一个快乐的结局。” 但是，事实上并不是这样的。我觉得对你或任何人来说，情况可能都是如此。我花了很多时间和Shaka一起讨论，因为通常是你自己的心理状态影响了你。她对我说过的一句很有见地的话是：“你知道的，大多数被独自关押了七年的人都会疯掉。”
Like, you're never coming back from that. It's just an impossible thing. But if you like study a story, he actually kind of really was massively self-improve coming out of solitary, which is, you know, like, and he wouldn't recommend that for anybody just to be clear, it wasn't solitary. But what it was, you know, is he changed in solitary. He was able to change a big set of beliefs that he had about himself that kind of got him out of that.
就像，你不可能从那种境地回来，那真是件不可能的事情。但如果你仔细研究他的故事，他实际上通过独处得到了极大的自我提升。要说明的是，他并不推荐别人去体验那种独处。但在那段时间里，他确实发生了变化，改变了自己的一些根深蒂固的信念，这帮助他走出了困境。
And the thing that his conclusion from it, which I thought was really interesting, he's like, like, I was in prison for 19 years, I was in solitary for seven, I come out, I can't run an apartment, I can't vote, you know, I can't get a gun, I can't do like like no rights. None of that was anything compared to what I did to myself. And I think that's very true for CEOs in general. And people in general is that like all the things that you perceive that are happening to you that are bad, you know, be it like the systems against you or somebody undercut you or racism or sexism or this or that or the other is very small compared to like, it means a lot if you believe it, you know, if you believe what people say about you, if you believe what they did to you. then that destroys you. But if you go like that's not me, you can overcome almost anything and that, you know, he's got a new book out on that anyway, that thing is very good because that's the you know, I say more than anything that's a key to success.
他的结论非常有趣，他说：“我被关了19年，其中7年是单独监禁。出来后，我不能租房、不能投票、不能拥有枪支，几乎没有任何权利。但和我给自己带来的伤害相比，这些都不算什么。”我认为这对CEO和很多人来说都很真实。你觉得生活中那些对你不利的事情，比如制度不公、他人背叛、种族歧视、性别歧视等等，其实都微不足道。关键在于你是否相信这些，如果你相信他人对你的评价或所做的一切，那就会摧毁你。但如果你能说“那不是我”，你几乎能克服任何困难。他还写了本新书谈论这个问题，这本书很不错。我认为，这种心态比什么都重要，这是成功的关键。
Something you like if you look at all the writing you've done, it's essentially about the struggle and pain and suffering of being a see out your heart, you know, your first voice, the hard thing about hard things. There's a lot of talk these days about just how important struggle is and how valuable it is to go through struggle, Jensen's big on this, you know, he talks a lot about just you have to go through pain and suffering to be a great leader. You don't really have a choice, you know, like that, that's sure. There's something that I saw you share that I love, which is running towards fear versus running away from fear. Something that you tell all your leaders to work on. Easy to hear, hard to do, we don't like doing things that are scary running towards things that are scary.
如果你回顾自己写过的所有文字，会发现它们其实都是在描述作为一个看透自己心灵的人所经历的斗争、痛苦和磨难。你知道，你的初始之声，关于困难中的困难的事。现在有很多讨论都在强调斗争的重要性，以及经历斗争的价值。Jensen对此非常推崇，他常说，经历痛苦和磨难是成为伟大领袖的必经之路。你真的没有选择，就是这样。我看到你分享过的一件事，我特别喜欢，就是勇敢面对恐惧而不是逃避恐惧。这是你告诉所有领袖都要努力做到的一件事。容易听懂，却很难做到，因为我们都不喜欢去做那些让人感到害怕的事情，去面对那些令人恐惧的事情。
Why is this so important? Why is this something people need to learn to do? Well, so the biggest mistake that you made there, the worst thing that you do as a leader, like there's things in your control and there's things like how to your control and hesitation is, you know, that's generally the most destructive. And I go through all the ways that it's destructive, but it's extremely bad. And the thing that causes you to hesitate is, you know, both decisions are horrible, right? Like there is, like, it's not business school where like you're going through a case study. And if you don't know, then the company would have gone this way. But if you had done that, it's a great success. Like, that's not actually, you know, what happens to you, what happens to you, it's like, okay, if we rearch, you know, like this product is the architecture snack, actually get us where we need to go. I kind of know that.
为什么这是如此重要？为什么人们需要学习如何做到这一点？因为作为领导者，你犯的最大错误在于控制之内和控制之外的事情，而犹豫通常是最具破坏性的。我经历过犹豫带来的各种破坏，但它确实非常糟糕。促使你犹豫的是因为面临的决策都很糟糕。这并不是商学院的案例研究，在那里如果你不知道那么公司会走向某个方向，而如果你做了另一种决策就会取得巨大成功。实际上，现实中你需要面对的是，如果我们重新规划，像这个产品的结构，能否真正达到我们想要的目标，我心里多少有些数。
But if we rearchitect it, like we're going to probably miss all the features, miss the quarter, have trouble raising money, you know, shatter it's out. So like, that's really bad. And then that rearchitecting is really bad. And so I'm just going to try to like, and avoid this subject because I don't, I don't even want to deal with either of those. And that's, that's the worst thing because if we are, you know, if action is the better choice, and, you know, that's good. And then if you don't make an explicit decision, then the whole company is going to get nervous because they know that the architecture is whack. And you got to fix it. And then you know, like probably one of my bigger ones on that was, you know, we went public with two million dollars in trailing 12 months revenue at 18 months old, right? Like in the Pua, like, that's obviously a bad idea. I mean, people like, there's no question that wasn't a bad idea.
如果我们重新构建架构，可能会错过所有功能，错过这个季度的目标，还会面临融资困难，总之，就是失败。所以这真的是一个很糟糕的情况。重新构建架构的风险很大，因此我倾向于避开这个话题，因为我真的不想处理这些问题。这是最糟糕的情况，因为如果采取行动更优，当然是好的。而如果不明确做出决策，整个公司都会感到紧张，因为他们知道架构有问题，需要解决。另外，有一个更大的问题是：我们在公司成立18个月时就已经上市，而那时追踪的12个月收入仅有200万美元。这显然是个糟糕的决定。没有人会怀疑这是个糟糕的主意。
But the truth of it was the alternative because of where the private markets were was going bankrupt. And that's a worse idea. And if you look at that time, you know, March of 2001, when we went public, you just look at the number of CEOs that hesitated on that and didn't do it and went bankrupt. It's a lot. And so that's, you know, that, getting good at making a decision that everybody's going to go, wow, that was insane. But like, you went, like the Wall Street Journal wrote a whole, like, long story about how stupid I was. And then business week wrote a story called the IPO from hell. That was the name of, like, our idea, the IPO from hell, which I like was accurate in a sense. But so like, that's really bad. But it wasn't as bad.
事实上，由于当时私人市场的状况，另一个可能的结果就是破产。而这更糟糕。回顾2001年3月我们上市的时候，你可以看到许多CEO当时犹豫不决，最终没有采取行动，结果破产。有很多这样的例子。所以，在做出一个让所有人都觉得不可思议的决定时，能够坚持下去变得十分重要。比如，《华尔街日报》曾写过一篇很长的文章说我有多么愚蠢，而《商业周刊》则报道了一个名为“地狱般的IPO”的故事，用来形容我们的想法。这个说法在某种意义上是准确的。这真是糟糕透了，但也没有那么糟。
And this is why it's so scary to make that decision because you know that's going to happen. I knew those stories would get written. Like, there was no question. And, uh, yeah. And that's, that's the kind of muscle. So like, if you think about it, like, the psychological muscle you have to build to be a great leader is to be able to, like, look in the abyss and go, okay, we're going, that way is slightly better. We're going to go that way. And it's very hard to do. I don't know. It's a thing people struggle.
这就是为什么做那个决定会让人感到恐惧，因为你知道结果会那样。我知道那些故事肯定会被写出来，毫无疑问。是的，这就是那个心理上的“肌肉”。如果你仔细想想，成为一位优秀的领导者所需要培养的心理素质就是能够直视深渊，然后说：“好，我们选择稍微好一点的方向，我们就去那边。”这非常难做到。我不知道，这是人们常常会感到挣扎的事情。
And it began something, should I fire the head of sales? So I don't want to have that conversation. Like, and then I'll have to replace them. And then like, there's going to be a bad PR story. And then, and, and, and, and, and, and you can kind of quickly calculate all the bad stuff that's going to happen if you do it. But if you don't do it, uh, that's probably going to be much worse. And, you know, kind of, that's why you have to run towards a pain and darkness.
这引发了一些问题，我是否应该解雇销售负责人呢？我其实不想进行这样的对话。一旦解雇了他们，就需要找人接替，然后可能会有负面的公关新闻，而且接二连三的问题会接连而来。你可以很快地计算出这样做后可能出现的所有不好的事情。但如果不这样做，情况可能会更糟。因此，有时就必须直面痛苦和困难。
What is the advice you share with founders? Because as you said, it's very hard to do this. Just like, what helps them actually get better at this? Is it just been being by their side telling them this is how it is? Is there anything else you can? No, no, no, no, no, no, like, I would say this is one where, you know, I can't really coach you to be good at this. Like, I can point it out. And like, so that you recognize that you were slower, whatever.
你会给创业者什么建议呢？因为正如你所说，这真的很难。有什么方法能真正帮助他们提高吗？是不是只要在他们身边支持并告诉他们现实情况就可以了？其实不尽然。我想说，这方面我无法直接教你怎么变得更好。我可以指出问题，比如你在哪些方面动作慢了，但是改善还是要靠你自己。
But it's kind of like, I always like them when I talk to them. It's like football, like, you know, you could have a really fast, great athlete, but if they don't trust their eyes, if they don't run to the ball, when they see it, I think, oh, maybe that was a fake. Then they're that step slower. And then they're not, they'll never be as good and CEOs are like that. You know, if you don't trust what you see, and you don't run at it, then like, you're just not going to be good.
这有点像，我总是喜欢跟他们交谈。这就像橄榄球比赛，你可能有一个非常快、非常优秀的运动员，但如果他们不相信自己的眼睛，不在看到球时迅速跑向球，那么他们可能会想“哦，也许那是个假动作”。这样一来，他们就会慢一步，而无法达到最佳状态。CEO也是这样，如果你不相信自己所看到的事情，不敢迎难而上，那么你就很难成功。
And it's hard to get CEOs not to hesitate. But like, one thing, the thing that does help is, you know, they look at it, and I look at it, and, you know, and I kind of confirm, know that that is as it appears. And you know, sometimes they're afraid of the conversation. So that one I can help with. So, you know, a CEO might be afraid.
要让首席执行官们不犹豫是很难的。但是，有一件事能有所帮助，就是他们看事情的方式和我一样。然后我会确认，那的确是事情的真相。有时候，他们害怕进行对话，这方面我可以提供帮助。所以，一个首席执行官可能会感到害怕。
Like, they want to do something, but they don't know how to say, they don't know how to have the conversation with their play. So I can walk them through that. You know, I had an entrance where the CEO said, hey, you know, like, I need your help then, my CTO, he's an asshole. And I was like, okay, you know, like, great, I said, but you're not going to fire him because I know it's a good CTO, or are you asking me, should you fire him?
他们想做些事情，但不知道怎么表达，也不知道怎么和他们的团队沟通。所以我可以帮助他们处理这种情况。比如说，有一次一个CEO找我，他说：“我需要你的帮助，我的CTO很让人不爽。” 我回应道：“好啊，但是你并不打算解雇他，因为我知道他是个不错的CTO，或者你其实是在问我是否该解雇他？”
He said, no, no, I don't want to fire him. And I was like, so you're asking me what to do because you don't know how to have that conversation with him about being an asshole without him quitting. Like, that's what you're saying. And he goes, yeah, that's the problem. And so I go like, why is he an asshole? And he says, well, he's an asshole because, you know, the other day, he made like a very junior, young woman in our finance organization, cry.
他说，不，不，我不想解雇他。我就想，你是想跟我请教怎么做，因为你不知道怎么跟他谈他行为不当而不让他因此辞职。你是这个意思吗？他说，是的，这是问题所在。然后我就问，那他为什么行为不当呢？他说，因为有一天，他让我们财务部门一位年轻的女员工哭了。
And I was like, oh, that's kind of, yeah, I got you. I said, like, this is what I would say to him. I'd say, I just shut him down. I would say, like, you're a really good director of engineering, because you do a great job of managing with team, get the products out, all that. But like, you're not really a CTO because to be a CTO, you have to be effective with other parts of the organization.
我当时心里想，哦，这有点像是，我明白你的意思。我说，类似这样的话我会对他说。我会说，我直接告诉他，你是个很优秀的工程总监，因为你在团队管理和产品发布方面做得很好。但你还不能算是真正的首席技术官，因为要成为一个CTO，你必须在与组织其他部分的互动中也很有效。
You can't just be like, effective only with engineering. And so, you know, and making like somebody cry, like she's never going to do anything you want. You lost all effectiveness with all the findings by doing that. And so if you want to get it, I'll help you all work with you on it. But if you don't, I'm going to have to hire a CTO at some point because it's like obviously I need that.
你不能只是有效地与工程团队合作，而忽视其他部分。比如说，如果你让某人因为工作而哭泣，那她绝对不会愿意再按照你的要求去做事。这样只会让你失去在发现问题和解决问题时的有效性。所以，如果你愿意努力改进，我会帮助你并与你一起合作。但如果你不愿意，我可能最终还是需要聘请一位首席技术官，因为显然需要有人能全面协调工作。
And, you know, and then he's like, oh, okay, I can have that conversation. You know, I can't have the conversation hey, you're an asshole because I want them to quit. But I can have the conversation that's more specific and a lot of kind of getting people not to hesitate is just getting them over that.
他说，哦，好吧，我可以进行那个对话。你知道，我无法进行那种说“嘿，你是个混蛋因为我想让你辞职”的对话。但我可以进行更具体的对话。很多时候，让人们不再犹豫就是帮他们跨过这个坎。
And so, so often like, and I would say, you know, really in a CIO's career, a lot of it is just not knowing how to have the conversation. There's also, I imagine an element of I just want to be liked. I don't want people to hate me. You have this great line that you want to be liked and respected in the long run, not the short run.
很多时候，我会说，在首席信息官（CIO）的职业生涯中，常常遇到的问题是不知道该如何去进行沟通。我想这其中也有一部分原因可能是因为他们想要被人喜欢，不希望别人讨厌自己。你有一句很好的话，那就是你希望在长远上被人喜欢和尊重，而不是短期内的。
Yeah, that's that's tricky because it's so, by the way, I have to deal with this in the firm too. And you know, like, you know, people wouldn't be entrepreneurial friendly. I'm like, that's not trendily, you know, respectful. But you got to be able to tell them the truth in a way that you probably don't tell most of your friends the truth. Because your friend, you know, like look, anthropologically, we want people to like us like it's just so that, you know, they don't throw us to the lion or whatever like that. That's just kind of a thing. So, you say, tell people what they want to hear.
这有点棘手，因为，顺便说一下，我在公司里也需要处理这种情况。你知道，有些人不会对创业者友好。我觉得这并不是一种流行的、尊重的态度。但是，你得能够以一种可能不像对大多数朋友那样的方式告诉他们真相。因为从人类学的角度看，我们都希望别人喜欢我们，这样他们才不会抛弃我们，或者让我们陷入困境。这是一种基本的生存本能。所以，人们通常会说些别人爱听的话。
But in dealing, you know, in a company level and a you know, context that you're on the board of somebody's company, you got to be able to tell them what they don't want to hear. That's the most important thing you're going to say. And yes, they're not going to like it when you say it. There's no question. But over time, like it could save the company. And, and, and all the most important things I've said are things that I've said to CEOs that they did not want to hear. You know, I don't know, like if that's what the leadership is about.
当你在公司层面上处理事务，并且在别人的公司董事会中，你必须能够告诉他们他们不想听的话。这是你要说的最重要的事情。是的，当你说出来时，他们不会喜欢听，这是毫无疑问的。但从长远来看，这可能会拯救公司。而且，我说过的所有最重要的事情，都是对那些不想听的CEO说的。我不知道这是否就是领导力的意义所在。
It's making, if everybody agrees with the decision, then you didn't add any value because they would have done that without you. So the only value you ever add is when you make a decision that most people don't like. And that's where leadership comes in because you know, that's where it's got to get to. And you know, that's, that's the thing that takes practice. I think you know, when Jensen talks about like you got to get to near death, to get yourself to do that, that's true.
这段话的大意是：如果每个人都同意某个决定，那么你并没有增加任何价值，因为没有你的情况下他们也会这么做。你的价值就在于当你做出一个大多数人不喜欢的决定时。这就是领导力的体现，因为你知道这就是必须达到的效果。而这需要不断练习。我认为，当Jensen谈到你必须接近失败的边缘，才能迫使自己做到这一点，这的确是正确的。
You know, it's hard, it's hard to build that if everything's going great. And I would say you like the CEOs who kind of had an easy run of it, sure they're like, let's say they just watch a product that's an instant hit. It's very hard for them to develop that muscle compared to the ones built in company like Jensen where he like, you know, got it it out for multiple decades before they have big success. Clearly, it's very difficult and painful to be a CEO, to be a founder.
你知道，如果一切都顺风顺水，要建立这样的能力是很困难的。我会说，那些一路顺利轻松的CEO们，比如他们推出的产品一炮而红，他们很难培养出这种能力。相比之下，那些像Jensen这样的人，他们在公司里奋斗了几十年才获得巨大成功，他们在这个过程中培养了这种能力。显然，作为一名CEO或创始人是非常困难且充满挑战的。
In spite of that, so many people want to start companies, so many people like Dream of having their own company, what do you, who's not right to start a company? Like what advice do you share with folks that are thinking about starting a company that may not understand just what they're about to get into? Yeah, so it's funny. So there's a couple things, you know, John Reed, who is the CEO of City Group, when I when I started as CEO, said to me something I never forget, he said, then the only reason to start a company is because you have an irrational desire to do so, because it's not worth the money.
尽管如此，还是有很多人想要创业，梦想拥有自己的公司。那么，对于那些不适合创业的人，你会怎么建议呢？对于那些正在考虑创业但可能不了解即将面临的挑战的人，你有什么建议可以分享呢？有趣的是，有几件事情是这样的。当我开始担任首席执行官时，花旗集团的首席执行官约翰·里德对我说过一句让我永远难忘的话：创办公司的唯一理由就是你有一种非理性的渴望去做，因为从金钱角度来看，这并不值得。
And you know, I was like, wow, he doesn't even quantify how much money. And this guy's running cities, so he's a very numbers banking guy. And he didn't quantify it. And I remember when we sold Loud Cloud for $1.6 billion, I remember thinking, wow, that wasn't worth the money. So I think if you're doing it for the money, that's a very bad reason. And it'll be extremely difficult to get your outcome. You really have to have an irrational desire to do something larger than yourself to kind of improve the world in some way that, you know, somehow the like that is your purpose.
你知道吗，我当时心想，哇，他居然没有具体说明有多少钱。而这个家伙还管理着城市，所以他是一个很懂数字和银行业务的人。结果他没有量化。我记得当我们以16亿美元的价格出售Loud Cloud时，我当时觉得，哇，那不值得这么多钱。所以我认为如果你只是为了钱去做事情，那是一个非常差劲的理由，而且你很难实现你的目标。你真的必须有一种非理性的渴望，去做一些超越自我的事情，以某种方式改善这个世界，那才是你的目标。
And if you don't feel that, then you'll never get through it. It just is too many, too many bad things happening along the way. So then how do you think of founders that are kind of looking around for ideas that kind of brainstorm, that look for, you know, market opportunities versus come from I have a mission, I got to do this thing in the world. If you have a, you know, in my business partner, Mark always talks about that.
如果你没有这种感觉，你就永远无法度过难关。因为一路上会有太多、太多糟糕的事情发生。那么你如何看待那些寻找创意、头脑风暴、寻找市场机会的创业者，而不是那些心怀使命、认为自己必须在这个世界上做成某件事情的创业者呢？我的商业伙伴马克经常谈论这个话题。
So like, if you have a product that forces you to build a company, that is a great case of it, right? Like, okay, you built something and the world wants it and then you need a company to deliver it. That's going to, you know, you already have the right product. And so that's very helpful. I think there are cases of people, I think you'll have Packard was kind of built that way that their life, okay, like we got to build technology, you know, is that abstract?
所以说，如果你有一个产品，它迫使你去创建一家公司，这就是一个很好的例子，对吧？就是说，好，你创造了一个东西，世界需要它，然后你需要一个公司去提供它。这就意味着，你已经有了正确的产品。所以这非常有帮助。我认为有些人就是这样建立起企业的，比如说Packard公司的创立过程也类似。他们的生活中有一个“好吧，我们必须去做科技产品”的想法，你知道，这就是这个意思。
We got built in technology for the world. And then they started with, well, like, what do you need? You know, they called it the next bench thing. What is the engineer sitting next to me need? The next engineer on the bench, so kind of, how they define the first set of products. So it can work the other way, but like I think the thing that is in common is like, it's just a very abstract idea that like you have to build something that's going to be important that like is going to, you know, people are going to like working there.
我们为世界创造了内置技术。接着，他们开始问：你需要什么？他们称之为“临桌需求”。就是坐在我旁边的工程师需要什么？他们通过这种方式定义了第一套产品。当然，这也可以反过来，不过我认为共同点是，这是一个非常抽象的想法：你必须打造一些重要的东西，让人们喜欢在这里工作。
People are going to benefit from the products like you have to have some like weird concept other than, oh, this is going to be successful. And I remember a lot of money. I think that's I think your way better off taking sucks off or meta and just, well, doing that like, that's a way better deal. On these lines, something else, Shaka suggested ask you about it. Apparently, there's a story where the CEO of Databricks asked you for $200,000 in the early days. And you said, no, and it's not because you didn't want to, you know, invest in and it's more about helping him think bigger. How did what happened there?
人们将从产品中受益，而不仅仅是追求奇怪的概念或认为这个产品会成功。我记得你提到过应该把钱投在Meta这样的地方，那样更合适。Shaka提到有一件事，他建议我向你请教。听说Databricks的CEO在公司早期向你请求投资20万美元，你却拒绝了。并不是因为你不想投资，而是希望帮助他思考更大的格局。这件事是怎么回事呢？
So they were six, six of them. They're six HD students and while in Jan Stoika, who is their professor, in Jan, I was a super genius, but, you know, they, you know, when I went with them, they were like, you know, we need to raise $200,000. And I knew, you know, like I know at the time that what they had was this thing called Spark. And they had, you know, the competitor was something called Hadoop and Hadoop, you know, had very well-funded companies already running towards it and Spark was open source. So like the clock was kicking. And, you know, and then I think they didn't quite know what they had.
他们有六个人，都是HD的学生。他们的教授是Jan Stoika，而Jan本人是一个超级天才。记得有一次我和他们在一起，他们说我们需要筹集20万美元。当时我知道他们手上有一个叫做Spark的项目，他们的竞争对手是Hadoop。而Hadoop背后已经有资金充裕的公司在支持，而Spark是开源的。所以时间很紧迫。我觉得他们当时并不完全知道自己手里握有的是多么重要的东西。
But I, and then there's also a thing always, although I wouldn't say Jan has his mentality, but professors in general, like it's a pretty big win if you start a company and you make $50 million, like you're a hero on campus, like that's a, that's a pretty cool thing to have done. And so I'm always a little nervous about kind of a company that comes out of academia thinking too small anyway. And so I said, like, I'm not going to write you a check for $200,000 or is already checked for $10 million. Because, like this company, you need to build a company. You need to really go for it if you're going to do this or the rice, like you guys should stay in school. And they were all graduating right then. So that was kind of that.
但是我，另外还有一种情况，虽然我不认为Jan有这种心态，但总体来说，对于教授们，如果你创办了一家公司并赚到5000万美元，那已经是个很大的成功，在校园里你会是个英雄，这是一件非常酷的事。所以我总是对那些源于学术界的公司感到有点担心，觉得它们的眼光可能不够远大。所以我说，我不会给你开一张20万美元的支票，而是要么开一张1000万美元的支票。因为要是你们要做这家公司，你们就要真心投入，放手一搏，否则还不如继续留在学校。当时他们都快要毕业了，就是这样的一个情况。
And Ali, Ali actually was VP of engineering at the time. And it was a while, you know, before I made him CEO. And that was very good luck on my part. Because I had no idea that they had a guy that good inside the company who could become CEO when I invested like, that that was just, you know, God smiled on me and gave me that one. So speaking of Ali, I actually asked him what to ask you about. And he immediately shared this story. I don't know if you remember this in your first one on one with him after you made a CEO. He was struggling with a bunch of low performers because he was coming in to lead the company.
阿里，当时是工程副总裁。在我任命他为首席执行官之前，经历了一段时间。而这是我极好的运气，因为当我投资时，我完全不知道公司内部有这样一个优秀的人可以胜任首席执行官的职位，可以说是上天眷顾了我。说到阿里，我曾问他，希望了解关于你的哪些问题。他马上分享了一个故事。我不知道你是否还记得，第一次与他单独会面是在你任命他为首席执行官之后。他当时面临很多表现不佳员工的挑战，因为他要上任领导公司。
And he was trying to turn things around, trying to coach them, trying to level them up. And your advice to him was, quote, you don't make people great. You find people that make you great, that make you the company great that you learn from, not the other way around. And there's something that he called managerial leverage. What is that all about with the lesson there? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like, understand he had just to come CEO. So I was teaching him, he had been VP of engineering. And CEO is different. And I'll get into why him and what I mean by leverage.
他努力想扭转局势，试图指导他们，提高他们的水平。你对他的建议是：“你不能让人变得伟大，而是要找到那些能让你和公司变得伟大的人，从他们身上学习，而不是相反。” 这其中提到的“管理杠杆”是什么意思？哦，对，是这样。他刚刚成为CEO，我在教他，因为他之前是工程副总裁，CEO这个职位是不同的。我会解释他为何适合，以及我所说的杠杆是什么意思。
So I actually wrote a post about this with a little Wayne quote where I think the quote was the truth is hard to swallow and hard to say to, but I graduated from that bullshit. Now I hate school. And that was always my feeling about this particular idea was, look, if you're VP of engineering, you can develop people. You can teach them to be better engineer as you can teach them to be better engineering managers. That's very doable. But if you're CEO, what do you know about being CFO? What do you know about being VP of HR or what do you know about any of these jobs? Except maybe VP of engineering.
我曾写过一篇文章，其中引用了小韦恩的一句话，我记得那句话是“真相难以接受，也难以说出口，但我已经摆脱了那些胡言乱语。现在我讨厌学校。” 对于这个特定的观点，我一直是这样的看法：如果你是工程副总裁，你可以培养员工，能够教他们成为更好的工程师，也可以教他们成为更好的工程管理者。这是很可行的。但如果你是首席执行官，你对担任首席财务官了解多少？你对担任人力资源副总裁了解多少？或者你对任何这些工作了解多少？可能也只有对担任工程副总裁有所了解。
And so the idea that you're going to take somebody who isn't world class at marketing and make them world class and you don't know anything about marketing is a dumb idea. It just doesn't work. And then the company can't afford for you to be spending time on that because they need you to make very high quality fast decisions and you do set the direction for the company. And they need you to have a world class team. And so like that, it's a very hard lesson if you've been VP of engineering because if you're a good VP of engineering, you do develop your people. But as a CEO, like, it's not like you don't do any of it. But it is very, very small compared to it.
把一个在市场营销方面并不优秀的人培养成世界级水平，而你自己对市场营销一无所知，这是个愚蠢的想法。这种方法行不通。而且，公司承担不起让你花时间在这上面，因为他们需要你快速做出高质量的决策，并为公司指引方向。他们需要你组建一个世界级的团队。如果你曾经是工程副总裁，这会是一个很难接受的教训，因为如果你是一个优秀的工程副总裁，你会致力于培养团队成员。但作为CEO，这方面虽然不是完全不做，但相对于其他任务来说，这部分工作所占的比重非常小。
So I like to make things just very stark. So you get what I'm saying. I don't like to hedge it. And then managerial leverage means just it is very simple. It's okay. If I have the ideas about what your department should do next, if I am kind of pushing you to kind of move your organization forward, then that's no leverage. What's leverage is if you're telling me what you should do and how you can push the company forward, that's leverage. Then I'm getting kind of more than I'd have if you weren't there. Otherwise, I could just man have fucking to. And that's the point when you feel like you're not getting leverage, when you got to go say, hey, why aren't we doing this? Why aren't we doing that? That's when you got to make a change.
我喜欢把事情说得非常直接明了。这样你就能理解我的意思。我不喜欢拐弯抹角。而管理杠杆意味着一种非常简单明了的方法。如果我对你的部门接下来该做什么有想法，并推动你去发展团队，这并不是杠杆作用。真正的杠杆是当你告诉我你应该做些什么以及如何推动公司发展时，那才是杠杆作用。这时，我得到的价值超过了没有你在场时的情况。否则，我还不如自己去做。当你觉得没有得到杠杆效应时，比如不得不说“我们为什么不做这个？”“我们为什么不做那个？”时，那就是你需要做出改变的时候。
And by the way, he's unbelievable at that. As good as anybody. I've seen as a guy who's not Calla says to see if he really cares about the people who work for him. He really wants them to have great careers and all that. But he does not hesitate. Like if he's losing leverage, he'll make a move. Kind of going back to the origin story of A16z, something you guys were really big on was helping founders. Stays, C.O.s become great C.O.s, not replace them with professional C.O.s.
顺便说一下，他在那方面真是令人难以置信，能力和任何人一样出色。我了解到，有人说他并不是只在乎自己，而是真的关心为他工作的人，希望他们能有出色的职业发展。但如果他失去优势，他会毫不犹豫地采取行动。回到A16z的起源故事上，你们一直非常注重帮助创始人成为优秀的CEO，而不是用职业CEO来取代他们。
I want to I want to flip this question on you. When does it actually make sense to replace S.E.O. when are people not going to make great C.O.s? It really, there's a very consistent thing that happens, which is, you know, when somebody doesn't make it. And it kind of starts with confidence is the way I would put it. So, when, like if you invent a product, you kind of recruit a team. So for all of a sudden you're C.O. But you haven't run a big organization. You don't know how to do that. Like most founders are like them. And so if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to make mistakes.
我想反问你一个问题：什么时候才有意义去替换掉首席执行官？什么时候人们不能成为出色的首席执行官？通常会有一个非常一致的情形，那就是当一个人无法胜任时，问题通常始于自信心。我是这样理解的：比如说你发明了一个产品，然后你组建了一个团队，于是你突然成为了首席执行官。但你从来没有管理过一个大型组织，不知道该怎么做。大多数创始人都是这样的。如果你不知道自己在做什么，就很可能会犯错误。
And they all make a lot of mistakes. And then when you make those mistakes, they're very expensive, you know, like they could cost you to do it down around or they could cost you to lose a company or they could cost your customer or you know, you scrub the product. Like they're very high impact. And not just on you, but everybody who you talked into joining you. And so that kind of motion can really cause you to lose confidence. And then if you lose confidence, what happens is you hesitate on the next decision.
他们都会犯很多错误。而这些错误往往代价高昂，比如导致你进行下一轮融资失败，或者让你失去一家公司，可能让你失去客户，甚至可能让产品毁掉。这些错误影响很大，不仅对你自己，对那些你说服加入你的人也是如此。这样的情况可能让你失去信心。如果你失去了信心，接下来你可能会在做决定时犹豫不决。
And you know, as we talked about, like hesitation is very dangerous because one, like it locks up the company, but even worse, what happens is if you have senior people working for you, they get very nervous and they feel like they need to jump into that void and make the decision for you. And that's when it gets political, like very political, because people are like buying for power inside your little screwed up company. And so now you've got a political dysfunctional organization. And that, you know, like that's generally where like, okay, the founder probably can't run this thing anymore is, you know, that's how it happens.
你知道，我们之前讨论过，犹豫是很危险的。首先，它会让整个公司停滞不前。更糟糕的是，如果你的公司里有高管，他们会变得很不安，觉得自己需要填补空白，为你做出决定。这时候，就会出现政治斗争，因为大家都想在你这个有些混乱的公司里争权夺利。这样一来，你的组织就变得政治化和功能失调了。这通常是当人们意识到创始人可能无法再管理公司时的问题开始出现的原因。
So, you know, most of what we do as a firm is to try to help people with that confidence problem. And there's like a whole series of ideas that we have around that. But that's, you know, you kind of have to somehow climb the confidence and the competency curve together. It's very hard to do. And you know, particularly like if you're an engineer and you're used to getting things right, or if you've been a straight-age student or something like that, it's very disconcerting. Better to have like CEOs who are like C-minus students, you know.
所以，你知道，我们公司大部分的工作都是在帮助人们解决信心问题。我们围绕这个有一整套想法。但你得同时在信心和能力的曲线上攀升，这非常困难。特别是如果你是个工程师，总是习惯于把事情做正确，或者你曾是个成绩全优的学生，这会让你很不安。不如有些CEO，过去可能只是成绩勉强及格。
Why is that? Yeah, the little physicist is like, well, like it's just good to be used to filling. So I think I wrote this, but like the median on the CEO kind of test is like 18. It's not like 90. And so you got to be comfortable getting a lot of D-minuses, because the D-minus is fine. You know, as long as you don't get the F, as long as you'll run out of cash, as long as you don't lose all the thing, you know, okay, like you've got through it. Keep going, you know, a match. That's a lot of the thing that we try to do. CEOs.
为什么会这样呢？嗯，就像是个小物理学家，好吧，就像是习惯于解决问题是件好事。我想我写下的是，像某种CEO测试的中位数大概是18，而不是90。所以你得习惯于拿很多D-，因为D-也是可以接受的。你知道，只要不挂科，只要不耗尽资金，只要不把事情全搞砸，你就还可以继续前进。CEO们经常需要这样去做。
Yeah, it comes back to the, your core, I don't know, message through your first book is just how much you will fail and how much you will struggle and how much paid you'll go through a CEO. Yeah, yeah. And you know, like, I mean, a lot of why I wrote that book was just to analyze it. I think what happens is, you know, particularly, you know, when I wrote it, and I think it's come back and been true now, it's like the way the narrative gets written on all these successes is like, oh, they came up with a genius idea and then they built this company and they heard all these smart people and it was all great.
是的，这又回到了你的核心思想，我不太清楚，就是你在第一本书中传递的信息：作为 CEO，你会经历多少次失败、多少次挣扎、多少痛苦。是的，没错。而撰写那本书的很大一部分原因，是为了分析这些。尤其是在我写书的时候，我觉得后来也证明了这一点，就是成功的故事常常被描述成某人提出一个绝妙的创意，然后成功地建立了一家公司，聘请了一群聪明的人，一切都很顺利。
But like, that's not all how it happens. And you know, I've spent enough time with like, everybody from like, Mark Zuckerberg to Sam Alderman and so forth that like they all go through that same thing that you who has, you know, your struggling company go through like you screw a lot of things up and they have massive consequences. But you you have to kind of maintain your confidence.
但是，事情并不是完全像那样发生的。而且你知道，我花了很多时间和各种各样的人在一起，比如马克·扎克伯格、山姆·奥尔特曼等等，他们都经历过与你一样的事情。你正在努力经营的公司也会经历这样的情况：你可能会搞砸很多事情，而且这些失误会带来巨大的后果。但你必须努力保持自信。
Actually, I was at a storytelling event last night and I was chatting with someone that ran into there and told her I was chatting with you today and she said how meaningful your first book was to her as a founder exactly as you said, normalizing that it's very hard and painful and this is just no it is. Yeah. And the feeling like, I mean, you know, like, if you think about organizational design or the, you know, goals and objectives or okay, or whatever management technique, like you need like a, you know, a basic like eighth grade education to like do any of that. So it's not that complicated.
其实，昨晚我参加了一个讲故事的活动，在那里遇到一个人，我们聊了一会儿。我告诉她今天要和你对话，她提到你的第一本书对她作为创始人来说意义重大，正如你所说，它让人们认识到创业的艰难和痛苦是正常的，事情就是这样。我觉得，如果你考虑一下组织设计、目标与目标设定、绩效管理，或者任何其他管理技巧，其实这些并没有那么复杂，就像是需要一个基本的中学教育水平就能理解。
The difficult part is the feeling that you have when you have to do it is very like the hard thing of matter, a re-orgase, you're redistributing power. So you're going to have people really frickin' mad at you because somebody's losing power if you do it correctly. And that person may be like a really good employee. Dealing with that is the hard thing, like knowing how the organization should work to make communication better is not their complex.
困难之处在于，当你不得不这样做时的感觉非常像一件困难的事情，比如说重组。因为你在重新分配权力，所以会有人对你非常生气，因为如果你做得正确的话，总会有人失去权力。而且失去权力的人可能还是一位非常优秀的员工。处理这种情况是困难的部分。相比之下，知道如何改进组织的运作以促进沟通并不算太复杂。
Yeah. I think about I was at Airbnb for a long time and just the guy Brian who I don't know even if he had a job before Airbnb. Oh, yeah. I spent a lot of time with Brian and he, you know, after COVID, he at all kind of clicked for him. And then he did that, he and the good talk on founder, and so forth. But the reason that was so articulate is because he had screwed every one of those things up. You know, he hired LT and you know, all this stuff in the United, he's our very senior people and, you know, he didn't, he wanted us to defer to them, but you can't defer as the seat, you know, because you know what Airbnb should be doing.
好的。我想说，我在Airbnb工作了很长时间，然后谈到Brian这个人，我不太确定他在加入Airbnb之前是否有过其他工作。我和Brian共度了很多时间。疫情之后，他对一切都有了更深刻的领悟。他还进行了一次很精彩的创始人演讲之类的。不过，他之所以能够把问题说得那么透彻，是因为他以前在很多方面都犯过错。他曾雇用了一些非常资深的人，然后希望我们都听从他们的意见。但作为公司创始人，你不能完全听从别人的意见，因为你很清楚Airbnb应该走的方向。
He may know what fucking finance should do, but you know what Airbnb should do and this kind of thing. And then it gets really wild when you, like you can't defer decisions as to see, you gotta like understand what people are saying and God and God, now we're gonna do this. And this again comes back to the point of you have to go through the struggle and pain and failure to learn those lessons.
他可能知道该死的金融该怎么做，但你知道Airbnb应该做什么以及类似的事情。当你无法推迟决策时，这会变得非常疯狂，你必须理解人们在说什么，然后坚定地去做这个事情。这又回到了这一点：你必须经历挣扎、痛苦和失败来学习那些经验教训。
Yeah, no, like I mean, it's, they're really hard to learn without kind of doing and without often like without paying the consequence. And I, you know, like, even I like I make mistakes, I, I, I, I have a conversation with Ali the other day and I was like, he's like, how's it going, Ben? And I said, well, you know, like I'm finally dealing with something that I had put off for, you know, a very long time. And he said, why'd you put it off? I said, good things were going too good. I didn't have to deal with it.
对，呃，我的意思是，这些东西真的很难学，不去实践就很难掌握，很多时候你还得为此付出代价。我自己也会犯错。比如前几天我和阿里聊过这个话题，他问我：“最近怎么样，Ben？”我说：“嗯，我终于开始处理一件我拖延了很久的事情。”他问：“你为什么拖了这么久？”我回答说：“因为好事不断发生，我就没必要去处理它。”
And he's like, yeah, he said, I know that. Like I'd say, Ali is, you know, one of the, if not the kind of best private company CEO out there. And he's making a mistake and I'm making a mistake. So like it's just tough. You said that one of the, maybe the main reason founders fail CEOs is they lose confidence. And you had some ideas that you guys have to help founders work through that or their couple you can share how you help.
他当时说，是啊，我知道。我会说，阿里是目前最优秀的私人公司CEO之一。他犯了错误，我也犯了错误，所以这真的是很艰难。你提到创始人失败的主要原因之一可能是他们失去了信心。你们有些想法来帮助创始人克服这个问题，那么能分享一些你们是如何帮助他们的方法吗？
Yeah, yeah. So we do, we do a lot of things on that. So the kind of design of the firm is about confident. So the first thing is, well, what would it give you? Well, like if you can get stuff done. So what if I could give you a network that is good as Bob Iguers that were day one, like the day you stepped into the job. And so, you know, we have 600 people at the firm. And why is that? Well, most of them are building that network for you.
好的，好的。所以在这方面我们做了很多事情。公司的设计核心在于自信。首先，这会给你带来什么呢？如果你能把事情做好。假设我能够在你刚上任的第一天，就给你一个像Bob Iger那样强大的网络。那么，你知道，我们公司有600个人。而之所以这么多人，是因为他们大多数都在为你打造这个网络。
So you can call any CEO or anybody in Washington or you know, kind of any executive or that kind of thing and get them on the phone and they'll talk to you and you can kind of deal with that thing. And then that just makes you feel like a CEO. And then, you know, we have a lot of people in the firm like myself who you can talk to on like a CEO to CEO basis as opposed to an investor to CEO and just kind of feel that early in the firm days, we used to do this thing.
所以，你可以给任何公司的首席执行官或华盛顿的任何人，或者你知道的高管之类的人打电话，他们会接听并和你交谈。这样交流后，你会感受到自己就像一个CEO。此外，我们公司有很多人，比如我，可以和你进行像CEO对CEO那样的对话，而不是投资者对CEO的对话，这让人感觉这种交流就像是公司早期的运作方式。
I think I'm going to bring back in some form this thing called the CEO barbecue. And it was like, you know, a lot of people have these events where like, you know, they bring in speakers and this and that and the other. And I always felt like those were one, they were too many days and then sometimes, you know, what they said wasn't really applicable and that kind of thing.
我想以某种形式重新举办一个叫做“CEO 烧烤会”的活动。很多人都会举办一些活动，请各种讲者来交流什么的。而我总觉得那些活动有几个问题：要么持续好几天，要么有时讲的内容不太实用。
And so, what I said, why do we just have a barbecue? And like I would barbecue, we get everybody in my backyard. I was 500 people at the peak, which is why the kind of stuff. I couldn't get much food after that. And then, you know, we have Larry Page in Mark Zuckerberg in Kanye. West. And so you're a CEO in there, but you're like, wow, like I must be important. I'm here with all these guys. And we're just hanging out having a drink eating barbecue. And so then when I go back to my company, I like, I feel like I am somebody and like, okay, I might not be like perfect at all this, but I am really a CEO. I was at the CEO barbacus. We're crying out loud and that couldn't do. And so, you know, that's, but it's all the whole idea was always like, okay, do you feel like you can do it? Because that's, you know, that's half the battle.
所以，我说，为什么我们不干脆搞个烧烤聚会呢？我负责烧烤，我们把所有人都带到我家后院。最热闹的时候有500人左右，这就是问题所在，后来食物确实不太够了。然后，你知道吗，我们有拉里·佩奇、马克·扎克伯格和坎耶·韦斯特在场。你身为一个CEO在那儿，但你会想，哇，我一定很重要，我和这些大人物在一块儿。我们就那么随意地在一起喝酒吃烧烤。之后，当我回到自己的公司时，我感到自己有价值，觉得好吧，虽然我可能并不完美，但我确实是个CEO。我参加了那个CEO烧烤会，真是没办法的事。重要的是，整个想法一直都是让你觉得自己可以做到，因为这就是成功的一半。
And look, having been in, and you know, every CEO has been in a position where they feel like, well, maybe I shouldn't be the one running this thing. Maybe it's just too big for me. And that's a bad, you don't, you don't want to go there. And because as we said, founders can get to the next product. And that's something that, you know, almost no professional CEO is able to do like, they've been rare cases, but very rare. So clearly you've worked with a lot of companies, a lot of founders. Let me kind of zoom out a little bit and ask you this question. What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building companies that goes against common startup wisdom?
好的，看看，每个首席执行官都有过这样的感觉，觉得自己可能不应该来管理这个公司，也许这个公司对我来说太大了。这种想法是不好的，我们不该这么想。因为正如我们所说，创始人可以开发出下一个产品，而几乎没有专业的首席执行官能做到这一点，这种情况非常罕见。所以显然你与许多公司和创业者有过合作。让我稍微退一步，问你这个问题：你在创建公司过程中学到的最反常识的经验是什么，这与普遍的创业智慧相悖？
Well, you know, the common startup wisdom keeps changing. You know, like one of the early ones that, you know, was wrong and kind of brain articulated it. And then now I think a little bit of what people have gone to is also wrong. So the first idea that was wrong was like, okay, build a team of like senior executives, you know, what cities you get product market, as fast as possible, and they can scale the thing. And I think that you got to build that team slowly and deliberately kind of pace to your ability to integrate and then manage them. Because if you bring in a bunch of senior people and you don't know really how they match to your company or how that function works or so forth, then you're going to start deferring. And once you start deferring, it's going to get out of control very fast because they're going to build empires. They're going to get political. They're going to do all that kind of thing. So that was bad advice. You kind of have to do it in a measured way.
你知道，创业的常识总是在不断变化。早期的一些建议被证明是错误的，比如说要尽快建立一个由高级管理人员组成的团队，以便在市场上迅速推出产品并进行扩展。这种想法是不对的。我认为，组建团队需要慢慢来，按照你整合和管理的能力，以合理的速度进行。如果你一开始就引入一群高级人员，而对他们如何与公司匹配或者他们的职能如何运作不清楚，那么你会开始依赖他们，一旦你依赖他们，局势会很快失控，因为他们可能会建立起自己的势力，会变得政治化，做各种事情。这是个糟糕的建议，所以该以循序渐进的方式来组建团队。
I think that founder mode, I think a lot of people have taken to never hire anybody with experience. And that's also bad advice in that. Look, somebody who knows how to do something can really accelerate your thing. So very early on, one of the founders, great Ursula at Databricks was running sales. And I'm like, Ollie, like, you're going to have to hire like somebody who knows sales. And because Ursula is PhD in computer science, like I like that, right? That's probably not where you're going to have to start if you're going to catch these guys before they take spark and like use it against you. And you know, and I sat down with Ursula and I explained why I said, like, you know, a lot of what sales, there's a lot of knowledge in how to build a worldwide sales organization. You need knowledge of customers, territories, tip territory, splitting, rip profiles.
我认为创始人模式中，很多人认为不应该雇佣有经验的人，这也是不好的建议。因为有经验的人知道如何完成事情，可以大大加速你的发展。在早期，Databricks 的创始人之一，优秀的 Ursula 负责销售。我对 Ollie 说，你需要雇佣一个懂销售的人。因为 Ursula 拥有计算机科学的博士学位，这很了不起，但如果你想在其他人利用 Spark 反过来打压你之前超过他们，那可能不是你最好的起点。我和 Ursula 坐下来，解释原因。我说，销售工作中有很多建立全球销售组织的知识，包括客户了解、市场划分、策略划分和团队组成等。
Like, there's just like a litany of stuff that you really can only learn by doing trial and error. And you don't know any. And so like, you're phenomenal. Like, let's get you, you know, and he's still, he's a very senior executive in the company now. But we need somebody who knows that. And the idea that there are companies that go, okay, we're just not going to hire that because we're in gender mode. That's also a mistake. So then there's a lot of it's more subtle than you think. And it's more complex than you think. And so you kind of have to get all the way to the truth. And these little snippets of advice that BC's give, because they watch some fucking podcast are all fucking stupid.
有很多事情你真的只能通过反复试验学会。而对于那些你根本不了解的事情，你需要有人来指导。比如说，你非常优秀，现在让我们来帮助你。他现在还是公司里的一位高级主管。但是我们需要有经验的人。有些公司因为性别平衡而不去招聘有经验的人，这也是一个错误。因此，事情比你想的要微妙复杂得多，你必须努力去接近真相。那些因为听了一些垃圾播客而给出的片面建议通常都是无稽之谈。
Like, it's just, there's a lot of depth that he says. So you have to know the answer to the next question, the next question, and the next question. And it does drag be crazy. Like, one of the funny other things that happened along these lines, just to show you how little you know as an investor about what it means to be CEO, one of the, we were at a board dinner, one of the CEOs says to me, he goes, or one of my, we in one of our CEOs says, Hey, you know, Ben, like that thing you told me a while ago about, don't be CEO at home. He said, like I, I, I was doing that and I stopped and it really helped me. And then the other kind of VC said, yeah, you know, you got to unplug some time.
翻译成中文：
就像，他说的话真的很有深度。所以你得知道接下来的问题的答案，然后再接下来的问题的答案，还有再下一个问题的答案。这让我感到很烦。为了让你明白作为投资者对担任 CEO 的意义了解有多浅薄，我给你举个有趣的小例子。我们有一次在董事会晚宴上，我们的一个 CEO 对我说：“嘿，Ben，你之前跟我说过，不要在家里做 CEO 的事情。我以前一直在那样做，后来我停下来了，这真的对我很有帮助。”然后另一个风投的人也说：“是啊，你知道的，有时候你得放松一下。”
And I said, I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? He's CEO. He's not unplugging. Like, he's getting shit all the fucking time. Like, he's got to deal with that. Like, I was not what I meant. I was like, you can't go home and boss your family around. That's what I meant. You know, like, so, so it's, which you hear something from like somebody who, but if you happen to, you don't even know what that means. And so then you kind of then trying to transfer the advice to the next guy, I was like, oh, so anyway, so, but it's, you know, like he was very innocent. I don't want to kind of speak bad of him, but like, that's how it sounds, right? But that's something it is. That's an amazing story. So the advice partly here is just don't believe everything you see on Twitter and little sound bites of advice.
我当时就想，你到底在说什么？他是个CEO，他根本没有时间可以断开联系，他总是在忙，必须处理那些事情。我不是那个意思，我是想说，你不能把在公司的那一套用在家人身上。这就是我想表达的意思。有时候，你从某个人那里听到一些东西，但实际上你可能都不知道那话的真正意思，然后你再试图把这些建议传给其他人。无论如何，他其实很无心，我不想说他的坏话，但听起来就是这样。不过这的确是个有意思的故事。这里部分的建议就是，不要轻信你在推特上看到的所有东西和那些简短的建议。
Yeah. I mean, like, and I think actual CEOs know it. And that's kind of how like people in my profession going to get a bad rep because like giving advice that that's not something that you know, but something that you heard is very dangerous. So I think so speaking of advice that you've shared that might be out of date now, you are famous for writing one of the most popular pieces of literature for product managers. There's a lot of pms that listen to this podcast called good product manager, bad product manager. And if you actually go to that post today at the top, you say this document was written 15 years ago, and it's probably not relevant today for pms.
好的。我是说，我觉得实际上那些CEO们都明白这一点。而这也是为什么我所在的职业会有不好的名声的原因之一，因为提供不属于你自己所知、而是你听说来的建议是非常危险的。因此，我认为，对于那些您曾分享过的建议，现在可能已经过时了这个话题来说，您因撰写其中一篇最受产品经理欢迎的文章而出名。许多收听这个播客的产品经理都很熟悉《优秀产品经理，糟糕产品经理》这篇文章。而如果你现在去查看这篇文章的开头，你会发现你写到这篇文档是15年前写的，可能对现在的产品经理来说已经不再适用。
I present this nearly as an example of a useful training document. Still people link to it. I actually just link to it as it is just like this is something every pm needs to read. What is it that you think people should maybe not take away from it? And what do you think people still should take away from that piece? Yeah. So the reason I wrote it when I wrote it was that I had a lot of product managers and one thing about product management is it's a job that's completely different at every company. And there is no training for it. So like everybody kind of figures it out as they go. And depending on what's being emphasized, they'll get wrapped around the axle on, if it's enterprise company, okay, well like pitching to customers or like I need to be really good with the press or I need to be really good at writing the product requirements document or that kind of thing.
我把这份文件几乎当作一个有用的培训材料来展示。尽管如此，人们还是会引用它。我个人也会推荐这篇文章，因为我认为每个产品经理都应该阅读它。那么，你认为有哪些东西是人们不应该从中得出的呢？又有哪些是他们应该汲取的呢？
当时我写这篇文章的理由是因为我管理着很多产品经理，而产品经理这个职位在每个公司都是完全不同的。实际上，没有针对产品管理的统一培训。所以每个人基本上都是在工作中自己摸索的。根据公司对产品管理不同方面的重视，比如在大型企业中，可能要注重如何与客户沟通、如何在媒体面前表达或如何撰写产品需求文档等内容，人们在这些方面会尤其投入。
And those are all like these tasks, but none of those were the job. And what I was trying to get out and good product manager, bad product manager was the job is fundamentally the leadership job. And it's a tricky leadership job because nobody is actually reporting to you. So it's like this influence, how do I get people to do what I want? You know, even though I'm not paying them, I can't fire them, I can't promote them and so forth. And which is kind of the essence of like real leadership because if you start to rely on promotion firing and so forth for authority, then you're never going to be good at being CEO or anything.
这些任务都和工作有关，但都不是工作的核心。我所要表达的其实是好产品经理和坏产品经理的区别在于，产品经理的工作本质上是一个领导者的工作。这是一种棘手的领导角色，因为没有人真正向你汇报工作。就像影响力一样，你需要思考如何让别人按照你的意愿行事，即使你没有给他们发工资，也不能解雇或提拔他们。这才是真正的领导力的精髓，如果你开始依赖升职、解雇等手段来获取权威，那么你永远不会成为出色的CEO或其他领导角色。
So I wanted them to get into the mindset of okay, your actual job is to get a product into market that customers love that's better than anything that anybody else in the world puts in market. Like that's your job. And so to accomplish that job, you need engineering to understand you with clarity. You need to understand engineering with clarity. You need to have a really good view of the market and the competitors and the technology and so forth. And you need to kind of put that all together and deliver the thing. And all the other things are tasks that may or may or may not need to do. I don't know if you need to do it. But like the thing is, you have to be the leader. You've got to get the thing done.
所以，我希望他们能够进入这样一种思维方式：你的真正工作是将一款产品推向市场，让客户喜爱，并且要优于全球任何其他市场上的产品。这就是你的任务。为了完成这个任务，你需要让工程团队清晰地理解你的想法，你也需要清晰地理解工程团队的想法。你需要对市场、竞争对手、技术等有一个透彻的了解，然后把这些因素整合起来，最终交付产品。其他事情只是一些任务，可能需要做也可能不需要，我不确定是否必须完成。但是最重要的是，你必须成为领导者，并推动事情的完成。
And so what I think it's still good on is that like the mindset, like, you know, be the leader. I think the details of it, you know, of any kind of thing that was kind of tasks specific was like really for my group at Netscape in like 1996. Whenever I held I wrote it. So it was, you know, as a kind of document, I read out a frustration. But I am glad that the people so like it. And I think leadership in general is under undervalued, underestimated. It's the most powerful thing. And most of the great companies, Jensen, is a great example. Like what a phenomenal leader he is. Not just in video, but of the whole industry.
我认为这个东西依然很好的一点在于它的思维方式，比如要有领导者的精神。我觉得任何具体任务的细节部分，可能只是针对我在网景公司1996年那时候的团队的。我当时写下它是因为有些挫折感，不过我很高兴大家依然喜欢它。我认为领导力在普遍意义上是被低估的，实际上它是非常强大的。大多数伟大的公司都有出色的领导者，Jensen就是一个很好的例子。他不仅在视频领域是个出色的领导者，甚至在整个行业中都是如此。
And he doesn't have authority over the industry, but like he drives it for and that's and that's why they good product management, bad product management is so important. That thing if you learn how to do it, that's the thing. I didn't realize he wrote that initially as just an internal document. And then he was kind of before blogging took off. So it's just an internal thing. And I probably should later. It was I was just getting so mad, you know, and by the way, by product management team at the time was like very good, very talented people. They just get, they just were not getting that concept. So you know, like David Wyden said, coastal ventures, Raghu Raguran, who was the one on the C.O. of the M. Where I mean, like the team was like that team. But they were driving me crazy. And so I just I was like, I can't yell at people anymore. I have to like explain to myself.
他并没有掌控整个行业的权力，但他确实推动了行业的发展，因此好的产品管理和不好的产品管理显得尤为重要。如果你学会了怎么做，这就是关键所在。我没意识到他最初只是写了一份内部文件，那时博客还没有流行开来。所以这只是内部使用。我可能应该早点去了解这一点。当时我实在太生气了。顺便说一下，那时的产品管理团队非常优秀，成员都很有才华，但他们就是没有理解那个概念。像David Wyden 和 Coastal Ventures 的 Raghu Raguran，他们都曾是公司的高管。团队成员都很厉害，但他们让我抓狂。所以我觉得自己不能再对人发火了，我需要与自己解释清楚。
And so it's a good thing. If you find yourself yelling at people, like you probably haven't explained what you want. It was the other big take right from that. Do you ever think that piece would be so long lasting and so I don't know. I don't know. No, I didn't even know like I thought it was kind of like aggressive when I wrote it. Like you could tell I was mad because I called a good product manager, bad product manager. It's like bad dog. Bad product manager. That's the that was kind of the emotion I had. So yeah, you know, it's kind of shocking. Yes, some of the things that you write. I would say that that's, you know, I'm kind of creative and you probably know this. Like the ideas that you have, the things that you write in five minutes end up being much better than things you write in five weeks, you know, and I find in talking to, you know, musicians or writers or anybody has that same experience.
所以，这其实是一件好事。如果你发现自己在对别人喊叫，那可能是因为你没有清楚地解释你想要什么。这是从中学到的另一个重要经验。你有没有想过那段文字会如此持久，以至于我也不知道。我不知道。当时我并不知道，我觉得我写的时候有点咄咄逼人。你可以看得出来我很生气，因为我用了"好产品经理"和"坏产品经理"这样的说法，就像在说"坏狗狗"一样。这就是我当时的情绪反应。所以，是的，一些你写的东西真的会让人感到惊讶。我想说的是，我有一点创意，你可能也知道这一点。有时候，你在五分钟内写下的主意，比你花五周时间写的东西要好得多。我发现和音乐家或作家交谈时，他们也常有这样的经历。
Like the thing that you've already synthesized so much that you just have to write it out is that's the best stuff. There's something that you mentioned there in your answer about the PM being the leader. There's always this kind of sense that the PM is not the mini CEO, how dare you call yourself that. I actually think that's exactly what the PM is. They're basically the closest to the CEO. Their kind of job is to think like the CEO within the team. Yeah, people get mad, you know, like because everybody, you know, like this is the whole challenge of management in general. Like people get jealous sort of a stupid shit. But like from the perspective of the PM, like it doesn't matter if you write a good spec or you have a good interview or you do this or do that.
就像你已经深思熟虑之后，只需把想法写出来的那种感觉，那就是最好的状态。在你的回答中提到了一个观点，就是产品经理（PM）是领导者。一直以来都有一种观点认为，产品经理不是小型CEO，怎么可以自称这样。但我实际上认为产品经理就是这样。 他们基本上是最接近CEO的人。他们的工作就是在团队中像CEO一样思考。确实，有些人会感到不满。管理工作中总是面临这样的挑战，人们总是因为一些无聊的事情而产生嫉妒。不过，从产品经理的角度来看，这根本不重要，无论你是写了一份好的规格说明，还是进行了成功的面试，或者做了其他事情。
Like what matters is that the product wrench and you have to get all the way to there and kind of work backwards for that. And you can't do that with that leadership because it is about, okay, we want to build that. And you're not necessarily the Christian comes up with every idea or this or that. I mean, you're just the keeper of the vision. You know, and that's true for CEOs too. Like, you don't mind every idea on a company coming from the CEO. Like that's I think it's a misunderstanding what a CEO is is why people don't like that. They don't know what a CEO is. But a CEO isn't the one who has every idea, it gives every order, it does have it. That's not the way it works. The way it works is there's somebody's got a consolidate, you know, get all the good ideas. Prioritizing decide which good ideas we're going to do and then get everybody on the same page that they are very high fit, alienics, standing of what that is.
重要的是，你得把注意力放在产品上，然后从目标开始，再往后推，逐步实现。而在现有的领导模式下，你是无法做到这一点的。领导力更多是关于明确我们想要达成的目标，你不必是那个提出所有创意的人。其实，作为愿景的守护者，你只需要确保团队朝着正确的方向前进。
同样，这对CEO来说也是适用的。大家普遍误解了CEO的角色，认为CEO需要提出所有点子、发出所有指令，但事实并非如此。正确的运作方式是，有人负责整合各种好的想法，决定优先处理哪些，然后让大家对这些想法有统一的理解和目标一致的行动力。
And you know, so that it is a CEO kind of function. Now, it doesn't mean like I'm better than you. It just means it like that's what I'm doing. This episode is brought to you by Miro. Every day new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear. But a recent survey for Miro tells a different story. 76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role. But over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it. Enter Miro's innovation workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done. Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade. Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.
你知道，这就像是一个CEO的职能。这并不意味着我比你更优秀，只是说明了我在做的事情。本期节目由Miro赞助。每天都有新的头条新闻吓唬我们，说人工智能如何抢夺工作岗位，引发了很多焦虑和恐惧。但Miro的一项最新调查却揭示了不同的情况：76%的人认为人工智能能够提升他们的工作角色。然而，超过50%的人不知道何时使用人工智能。为此，Miro推出了创新工作空间，这个平台让人们和人工智能在一个共享空间内共同合作，以便完成出色的工作。十多年来，Miro一直致力于帮助团队将大胆的想法转化为下一个大创举。如今，他们通过释放人工智能和人类潜力的结合，引领着产品更快地推向市场。
Guests of this podcast often share Miro templates. I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team. Teams especially can work with Miro AI to turn the unstructured data, like sticky notes or screenshots into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes. You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool. The work you're already doing in Miro's canvas is the prompt. Help your teams get great work done with Miro. Check it out at miro.com slash Lenny. That's m-i-r-o dot com slash Lenny.
这个播客的嘉宾经常分享 Miro 模板。我经常用它来和团队一起进行头脑风暴。团队特别可以使用 Miro AI，将便签或截图等非结构化数据快速转化为可用的图表、产品简报、数据表格和原型。你不需要成为 AI 专家，也不需要切换到其他工具。你在 Miro 画布上已经进行的工作就是提示。通过 Miro 帮助你的团队出色地完成工作。可以在 miro.com/Lenny 查看。网址是 m-i-r-o 点 com 斜杠 Lenny。
Let's talk about AI. I'm very proud of us. It's been almost an hour. We haven't even mentioned AI. I think that's a record. Okay, so I asked Adam Newman. We work founder, now flow founder, someone you work closely with now what to ask you about. And he said he has some really interesting insights about how AI is impacting hiring. You know, Adam is probably the single most controversial investment that we ever made. We got called everything from stupid to sexist to racist to basin mat for like literally just funding that. And I think it's going to end up being one of the best investments we ever made. He's doing a phenomenal job there.
让我们谈谈人工智能。我为我们感到非常自豪。我们竟然聊了差不多一个小时，还没有提到人工智能。我觉得这可以算是个记录。所以，我问了亚当·纽曼（Adam Newman），也就是WeWork的创始人，现在是Flow的创始人，他和你现在密切合作，我问他该向你提什么问题。他说，他对人工智能如何影响招聘有一些非常有趣的见解。你知道，亚当可能是我们迄今为止投资中争议最大的一位。为了这个投资，我们被骂得很惨，有人说我们愚蠢、性别歧视、种族主义，甚至因为仅仅资助他就受到很多批评。而我认为，这可能会成为我们做过的最佳投资之一。他在那里做得非常出色。
But there's an important principle in that which kind of we do as a firm which I think is not widely done but I would love it if people copied it, which is, and there's something I learned, you know, somewhat from Shaka, which is you don't judge a person by the worst thing that ever happened to him. Like we've all had bad things happen to us. We've all made bad decisions. Most of them, they don't make a mini series about it. Right? And so like to judge them on that, you want to judge people on what they do well, not what they screwed up. And yeah, because that's where you see the talent. If you look at what Adam did well, it's truly a attacker. You know, like we work, everybody knows how we work. It's like it's the name, more important commercial real estate brand than we work, like you can't. And so like what an accomplishment.
这段话的大意是：我们公司坚持一个重要的原则，我觉得它并不普遍，但我希望更多的人能效仿。这是我从Shaka那里学到的一点，就是不应该通过一个人经历过的最糟糕的事情来评价他。我们每个人都遇到过不好的事情，也都做出过错误的决定，但大多数情况下，这些事情并不会被拍成电视剧。所以，我们应该根据一个人做得好的事情来评价他们，而不是揪着他们做错的事情不放。因为这样才能看到他们的才华。比如说，看看Adam做得好的事情，他是一个真正的开拓者。就像WeWork这个名字，如：在商业地产领域，有哪个品牌在名字上比WeWork更有影响力呢？这是多么了不起的成就。
And then yeah, and there were so many things that went into that and yeah, so many things he did right. And then if you kind of look at really unravel the things that went wrong, most of it was like a combination of inexperience and nobody around him that would tell him the truth. And so like that. And you know, maybe he wasn't good at listening to the truth either at the time. But to throw away a guy on that, which is by the way, the world was so mad at us for not throwing him away for believing in him, it's just that it's a big mistake. And you know, I credit Mark, his mark is one who called him up originally and just said, Hey, Adam, what are you doing? Because like, you know, we watch what you did. We work and we thought it was pretty impressive.
然后，是的，做出那个决定涉及到很多事情，而且是的，他做对了很多事情。但如果你仔细分析那些出错的地方，大多数都是由于缺乏经验，以及他身边没有人能坦诚地对他说出真相。而且在那个时候，可能他自己也不善于倾听真话。然而，要因此放弃这样一个人，而事实上，当时整个世界都对我们没放弃他、继续相信他感到愤怒，这是一个巨大的错误。我也要感谢马克，是他最初联系了他，直接问他：“亚当，你在做什么？”因为，我们看到了你的表现，我们认为那真的令人印象深刻。
And so I think that, you know, that that's probably the biggest secret there. It's not really about AI, but I think that like looking, you know, Judge Al Davis once said, you know, Coach Flaher is on what they can do. And I think that's very true. You know, Judge Flaher and what they can do, you know, coach people on what they can do, like help them take their strengths and use them as opposed to over focus on their weaknesses and just, you know, hand-raining about the one fucking thing they don't know how to do. Because like everybody's uneven.
所以我觉得，这可能就是最大的秘密所在。这其实并不完全是关于人工智能的，但我认为，正如阿尔·戴维斯法官曾经说过的那样，要关注人们能做到的事情。我觉得这非常正确。要评判他们能做什么，指导他们如何利用自己的长处，而不是过于关注他们的弱点，或者因为他们不会做的某件事而感到沮丧。因为每个人都有不完美的地方。
What it's like, what you're describing essentially, this is the job of an investor is to find an underappreciated asset and invest or before something people don't see. Yeah. And I mean, I think that it's, you know, like venture capital is really about investing in people, right? Like, you know, that you have ideas as an investor, but like what you really are ultimately betting on as the entrepreneur and the entrepreneur's idea, because the initial ideas and where they end up usually yet changes a lot with everybody reinvesting. So, you know, you kind of had to make the judgment on the person.
这段话的意思是，你所描述的实际上是投资者的工作，他们的任务是找到被低估的资产并进行投资，或者在别人没有注意到之前进行投资。是的，我认为这有点像风险投资主要是投资于人。作为投资者，你可能有自己的想法，但最终你真正相信和押注的是创业者和他们的想法，因为最初的想法和最终的结果通常都会因为大家的持续投资而发生很大变化。所以，你必须对这个人进行判断。
And, you know, how would you do that is really, really important. One of the things we emphasize inside the firm is like, we're investing in strength, not lack of weakness. Like, I want to know like, how good are they world class? They have a world class strength. And, you know, can that be to anybody? And like, everybody's flawed. And so like, let's help them deal with the flaws and, you know, surround them with people who can handle that and put the right person on the board who can talk to them like, I go to all Adam's board, maybe, you know, Mark's on the board. I go to all his board meetings because I'm the one who's good at like killing a guy who's that confident when he's like, okay, that's not your best idea.
这段文字翻译成中文，表述如下：
你知道，要做到这一点真的非常重要。我们公司内部强调的一点是，我们投资于优势，而不是弥补缺陷。我想知道他们在哪方面达到了世界一流水准。他们是否在某个领域具有世界级的优势？任何人都有自己的缺点，所以我们要帮助他们解决这些问题，并为他们配备能够应对这些问题的团队，并在董事会中安插合适的人，与他们沟通。比如，我会参加亚当的所有董事会会议，也许马克也在董事会。我参加所有他的董事会会议，因为我擅长在他过于自信时指出，“这不是你最好的想法”。
Like, that's a good role trip, me. But that's how you deal with that. You don't, you know, throw him away and go, okay, like, we don't want to be called names. So we're not going to invest in Adam Newman after we built rework. That's crazy. That's also why you guys invested in Klui, I imagine. Similar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Like, I mean, like, if you look at what those guys did, that was like some like high level market in genius too. Yeah. And, you know, that's really something plus the product is also.
就像是一场自我角色旅行。但是这就是你应对这种情况的方法。你不能就这么把他抛弃，然后说，好吧，我们不想被别人起外号，所以在我们建立了WeWork之后就不再投资于亚当·纽曼了。那样太疯狂了。我想这也是为什么你们投资于Klui。类似的情况。是的，没错。我是说，如果你看看他们做的事情，那也是一种高水平的市场天才操作。而且，产品本身也很不错。
I'm going to bring us back to AI. Something that a lot of people are talking about right now, while we're recording this is this potential huge bubble we're in with AI. Sam Altman said, we're in a big bubble, which is, you know, that's saying a lot. I'm curious just how you think that what, what is it saying? So you got to like, first of all, I should qualify this by saying, I'm an investor and Sam's a CEO. So CEOs have to have much more purpose when they talk.
让我把话题转回到人工智能。我们在录制这段内容时，很多人正在讨论的一个问题是：我们是否处在一个潜在的巨大泡沫之中。Sam Altman说我们确实处在一个大泡沫中，这话意义重大。我很好奇，你怎么看这个问题，到底意味着什么？我应该先声明一下，我是一名投资者，而Sam则是一位首席执行官，所以相较而言，CEO在发表言论时需要更有目的性。
Investors just have to be entertained. Well, so you got to give Sam credit for like, what is it his interest to set it up? Well, like if it's a bubble, then the one thing you should invest in is him and not all these guys chasing after. So that I would say like that's very smart. And then the other thing that's smart about it is there's nothing that you can say to the press that will make them love you more than saying all investors and like entrepreneurs chasing this already. It's like they love them because the press are generally haters.
投资者只需要被娱乐就好。因此，你得赞扬一下Sam，他有兴趣去筹划这个事情。如果说这是一个泡沫，那么你应该投资的就是他，而不是那些追逐泡沫的人。所以我认为这是非常聪明的。另外，有一点也很聪明，就是无论你对媒体说什么，都没有什么能比告诉他们所有投资者和创业者已经在追逐这件事更能让媒体喜欢你的了。因为媒体通常都比较喜欢批评。
And so it's just like red meat for the haters, which is also super clever. So I think whether even he believes that or not, that was a super smart thing to say. I'm so I'll just put it there. Whereas what I'm going to say won't be as smart, but it will I don't really have an axe to grind here. I mean, I could have an axe to grind and say, okay, like let's got all the other investors out. I'll say it's a massive bubble. But what I would say about that is so the first thing the one thing about bubbles is that if you're not sure what it is, it's not a bubble.
这就像给那些恨他的人投去的一块红肉，非常巧妙。所以我觉得不管他本人信不信，这是一个非常聪明的说法。我先把这个放在一边。相比之下，我要说的可能没那么聪明，但我对这件事没有特别的偏见。即便我可以有偏见，比如说把其他投资者都排挤出去，或者说这是一个巨大的泡沫。但我想说的是，对于泡沫，第一点就是，如果你不确定它是什么，那它就不是泡沫。
It's not a bubble. Because in order for it to bubble, you need capitulation. In that you need kind of everybody to believe it's not a bubble because then the price has really gone out of control. But as long as those people who think it's a bubble, then it's hard for that to happen. And it's funny. I had this debate in the economist, I think with Steve Blank in 2011 or 2012 when everybody thought it was a tech bubble, if you can imagine that. It absolutely was not.
这不是一个泡沫。因为要形成泡沫，你需要市场的放弃、投降——就是大家都相信这不是泡沫的时候，价格才会真的失控。但只要还有人认为这是一个泡沫，那么这种情况就很难发生。这件事很有趣。我在2011年或2012年和史蒂夫·布兰克在《经济学人》上进行过这样的辩论，当时大家认为这是一场科技泡沫，但实际上根本不是。
But because there were like 1400 articles saying that we were in a tech bubble. And I mean, you know, we're prices were then to come to the real estate. But I knew because everybody was saying it was a bubble, a one-on-bubble. Like I knew that. The prices were higher. But the reason the prices were higher was we're getting to global market. AI prices are higher than prior prices. But if you look at the revenue growth and numbers, we would not see anything like it.
但是因为大约有1400篇文章都在说我们处于科技泡沫中。我的意思是，你知道，当时的价格和房地产的价格差不多。我知道，因为每个人都说这是一个泡沫，所以实际上不是泡沫。我知道这一点。价格确实上涨了，但是价格上涨的原因是我们正进入全球市场。人工智能的价格比之前高，但如果你看看收入增长和数据，我们从未见过这样的情况。
The products that worked, Chatchy DeSams product worked so amazing. We've never seen that before. Not even Google, not anybody. And so like that's real. And we have companies that went from 0 to 800 million in a year. And that kind of thing. And so it's not a, I would say there's a basis for the price that's going up, first of all. Now, will the, I think the thing that's right about kind of what Tam is saying is the landscape is early, really early.
那些成功的产品中，Chatchy DeSams 的产品表现得非常出色。我们以前从未见过这样的情况，甚至连谷歌等公司也没有做到过。所以这是非常真实的事情。我们有些公司在一年内从零增长到八亿。这种情况并不常见。我想说，首先，价格上涨是有依据的。然而，我认为 Tam 说得对的一点是，这个市场还处在非常早期的发展阶段。
The technology is very immature, is amazingly as it works. Yeah, there's a long way to go to improve it. So it's very possible, you know, when you have that much technological change that the positions that these companies have achieved with their high revenue isn't sustainable. And that, you know, there will be a competitive change that either kind of lowers prices or any number one emerges or that kind of thing. And so, yeah, that's possible.
这项技术目前还很不成熟，尽管它确实能够出色地运作。不过，要改进的地方还有很多。因此，当技术发生如此大的变化时，这些公司所取得的高收入地位可能无法持久。此外，市场竞争可能会发生变化，导致价格下降、出现新的龙头企业等情况。所以这样的变化是很有可能发生的。
But I, I, I went characterize that as being like a financial bubble. In that, like, if you go back to the great.com bubble that everybody is always waiting for it to happen again, which I was CEO during. The thing that happened there was very different, which is it was the internet and every smart investor knew that the internet was a big deal. Like, how could you not check and know that the internet was like, of course, it's a big deal.
但我，我，我要把这形容为一个金融泡沫。你可以回想一下那场轰动一时的互联网泡沫，每个人都在等着它再一次发生，我当时正是其中一家公司的首席执行官。那时候发生的事情非常不同，因为互联网的存在，每个聪明的投资者都知道互联网是个大事。怎么可能不关注并了解互联网的重要性呢？当然，它是个大事。
But like, if you go back to 1996, at Netscape, we had 90% browser shit and we had 50 million users. So there were 55 million people on the internet in total and half those were on dial out. So, and then to build a product like E-vite, the greeting card company, had 300 engineers. That's how hard it was to build this stuff. And so the math didn't work. And the math didn't work on any of those ideas. And, but the investors kept pouring money in.
但是，如果你回到1996年，那时候在Netscape公司，我们的浏览器市场占有率高达90%，拥有5000万用户。当时全球互联网用户总数为5500万，其中一半人使用的是拨号上网。此外，要开发像E-vite（一个贺卡公司）这样的产品，需要动用300名工程师。建造这些东西是多么困难。而且，在这样的情况下，任何一个商业想法都无法实现盈利。但投资者依然不断往里投钱。
And then eventually, you know, everybody went bankrupt because there was no revenue coming in. And like, when they figured that out, then nobody would invest in anything. of course, then everybody realized, well, the internet was actually real. And Paul Krugman did no one he's talking about. And like, it was going to be a big thing. And then Facebook and Google and all these things emerged. But the thing that made it a bubble was like the unit economics didn't work, the businesses didn't work. Like these businesses are all working. And they're being priced appropriately for how they're grown. So that's not an effect. So the thing that you could say is they're not going to keep growing like that or like and so forth. And I'm not sure about that. Like the products, like I said, are working so much better than any technology product that we've ever built has worked. Like it's just mind-blower how good this stuff is. And so I don't know. If I had to bet, I would bet not a bubble.
最后，大家都破产了，因为没有收入进来。当人们意识到这一点时，没人愿意再投资任何事物。当然，后来大家也意识到，互联网是真实存在的，保罗·克鲁格曼所说的是错误的，互联网会成为一件大事。然后，像Facebook和Google这样的公司出现了。造成泡沫的原因是，当时的商业模式和单位经济效益无法奏效，而这些公司的业务运作得很好，它们的估价也与其成长相符，所以这不是问题。有人可能会说这些公司不会一直那样增长下去之类的话，但我不确定。正如我所说，这些产品比我们以前开发的任何技术产品运作得都好，令人惊叹。所以如果非要我下注，我会赌它不是泡沫。
Yeah, I think there'll be some dislocation. I think companies that I think they always invent your capital. If you've got like a run like this, then the great company and the crap company both get funded. But you know, that's just that's just venture capital. That's sound a bubble. Four founders starting companies these days when you look into the future of the AI industry say five, ten years. How do you think things will play out? Slash, where do you think the biggest opportunities remain? And where are you guys looking to invest most? In infrastructure, I think that like there is obviously like a real estate power cooling play. I think that's a little outside of you know kind of hardcore technology investment that we do.
是的，我认为会有一些动荡。我觉得公司总是会投资风险资本。如果有这样的趋势，那么优秀公司和糟糕公司都会被资助。但这就是风险投资，总会有泡沫。如今，当创始人开始公司并展望未来五到十年的人工智能领域发展时，你觉得事情会如何发展？你认为最大的机会在哪里？你们最关注投资的领域是什么？在基础设施方面，我认为显然在房地产、能源和冷却方面会有一些机会。不过我觉得这有点超出我们主要进行的核心技术投资范围。
But there's another layer which is like who can run, you know, take a given-o-consourced model, who can run it the cheapest with the kind of lowest latency. And that's going to be extremely valuable. Like whoever has that. And you know, Google has been historically very good at that and so forth. And I Sam was really trying to build that now a stargate. And so I think that's going to be a very important layer value. I think that you know on the foundation model side you have to be very selective as an investor. So in order to compete in foundational model world or basic rule of thumb is you have to be able to you know without much product progress for at least $2 billion because that's basically what it can cost you to train something that gets you competitive enough to make money.
但是，还有另一个层次的问题，比如谁能以最低的成本和最快的速度运行一个现成的开源模型。这将是非常有价值的，谁能做到这一点，谁就有优势。众所周知，谷歌在这方面一直表现出色。而Sam现在正努力在Stargate上构建这个能力，所以我认为这将是一个非常重要的价值层面。在基础模型方面，作为投资者你必须非常谨慎选择。为了在基础模型的竞争中占据一席之地，你需要至少准备20亿美元的资金，因为训练一个能够在市场上具有竞争力的模型，大约需要这么多成本。
And they're just very few founders like that. So Ilya is one of those, you know, Mirrors one of days. Faith A is one of those. But like that's the kind of class of person you need. And there's you know whatever they're certainly less than ten of those in the world. And so that's kind of like an important area but a small area. And then I think the application layer is going to be very very interesting. And I think that you know if you look at Sam like he's making most of his money off Chachy PT almost all his money off Chachy PT now. And Chachy PT is like you know I it looks like it's got a real like it or not. It's got a real mode. It's very hard to knock it off.
他们这样的创始人非常少见。比如说，伊利亚就是其中之一，米勒也是，Faith A 也是其中之一。但这就是你需要这种类型的人，而这样的在世界上肯定不超过十个。所以这是一个很重要但却非常小的领域。我认为，应用层将会非常有趣。如果你看一下 Sam 的情况，他如今几乎所有的钱都来自于 Chachy PT，几乎所有的收入都是靠Chachy PT。而 Chachy PT 看起来确实稳固，喜欢与否，它有一个强大的护城河，很难被模仿。
It's perched. There's a lot. You know everybody's taking a shot of it. People of great distribution like Google and you know Elon and in Zuckerberg and everybody and like that thing just keeps going like it is. So I think the applications are both more complex and kind of stickier than people thought they were originally like so the thing that people got very wrong is this whole thin wrapper around G.P.T. like that's really that. In fact here's how wrong it is. Back in the 80s they're that same phrase was used but it was thin wrapper around an RDBMS. With database.
这东西已经处于高位。你知道，每个人都在拍它。像谷歌、埃隆·马斯克、扎克伯格这样有很大影响力的人都在关注它，而且它就这样不断发展。所以，我认为这个应用程序比人们最初想象的要复杂得多，而且粘性很强。人们对这个东西有一个很大的误解，就是把它看成是绕过GPT的一个简单包装。其实这个误解很严重。事实上，早在80年代，就有类似的说法，但当时是围绕关系数据库管理系统的一层薄包装。
Yeah yeah yeah so it met companies like sales forests were basically just a kin wrapper. And I think that that's kind of the mistake people made. So like we're in it this company cursor and if you look at the camera in the first year. They built like 14 different models to really understand how a developer works like a high end like a real developer and they have that those models have tons and tons of interactions with how people talk to their friend cursor about how they should design their programming so for it. And that's like real that's not that's not just a thin layer on a foundation model and I think there are many many applications like that.
对，对，对，所以像Salesforests这样的公司基本上只是一个简单的包装。我认为这就是人们犯的一个错误。像我们在这个公司Cursor，如果你看他们的情况，在第一年他们建立了大约14个不同的模型，以真正理解一个高级开发者是如何工作的。这些模型与用户如何与他们的助手Cursor对话，以设计他们的编程有大量的互动。这是真实的，这不仅仅是在基础模型上的一个薄层。我认为有很多这样的应用程序。
And so I I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity at the application layer there's going to be some opportunity at the foundation model and of course you can invest in Sam you can invest in Anthropically and so forth and as well but there will probably be like a very small number of companies that set and then a almost unlimited number of companies have the application layer and then you know as the technology advances well of course the more things we can body day I mean already you know a time with cars are working like really well now. And after a long long long long time so it's like they think Sebastian when the challenge in 2006 when he drove the self-driving car across the country and we're here we are 20 years later and now they're deployed so that was a long time robots I think is a harder problem itself to drive from cars so we'll see how that goes but yeah there's certainly a lot in that world as well.
我认为在应用层面会有很多机会，而在基础模型方面也会有一些机会。当然，你可以投资于Sam或Anthropic等公司，但可能只有少数几家公司会占据主导地位。然而，在应用层面的公司将会是几乎无限的数量。随着技术的发展，我们能够实现的事情也越来越多。比如说，现在自动驾驶汽车的表现已经非常出色。从2006年Sebastian驾驶自动驾驶汽车穿越全国，到现在过去了20年，这项技术终于得以广泛应用。相比之下，机器人技术可能更具挑战性，但这个领域同样充满了可能性。
Wow okay there's a lot to this answer yeah something that now is exactly what I was looking for the crystal example it's something that comes up a lot on this podcast in the application layer specifically the thought that the way to win in this space and to build a mode is as you said build your own model slash proprietary data that you build through people using your product thoughts on that. Yeah I mean I think that's ends up just being what's required so it turns out that the universe is long tailed as you as is fat tailed and humans are very fat tailed in terms of human behavior, human conversation and so forth so to get to the real meaning of it and to get to the kind of essence of the problem you know in any domain turns out to be I think more complex than we thought and so I like like the early things and you know people were running around saying okay there's going to be one big brain to rule them all and these kinds of things that's kind of not played out yet.
哇，好吧，这个回答内容真不少，而这正是我一直在寻找的答案。关于水晶的例子，它经常在这个播客的应用层面中出现，具体来说，就是如果想在这个领域取得成功并建立护城河，就如你所说，需要构建自己的模型或通过用户使用产品而产生的专有数据。对此你有什么看法？是的，我认为这最终成为了一种必需，因为宇宙的规律是长尾的，同时也存在重尾现象。人类在行为、交流等方面展现出很明显的重尾特征。因此，想要真正理解事物的本质以及问题的核心，在任何领域中都比我们之前想象的要复杂。早期的时候，人们认为会有一个“大脑”统治一切，而事实是迄今为止这种情况还没有实现。
And in fact like if you look underneath the covers you have LLMs which have generalized pretty you know like in fascinating ways but they've kind of also asymptoted in that you know we we have run out of data for the most part and so if you look at the GPT-5 LLM the GPT-4 one and how much more it costs to train and so forth like it's you know it's definitely not going linear anymore. Another hand reinforced learning side has been linear but it doesn't generalize so if you build a great programming model it may be an idiot it may and so that I think is just very different than what people would have said three years ago and I think that's a kind of you know that there's not something that's both scaling and generalizing yet and you know maybe we'll get there but that certainly opens to the door to something that's more user friendly that's more effective in any number of domains than just the basic foundation model infrastructure.
事实上，如果你深入研究语言模型（LLM），你会发现它们在很多方面表现出色，但同时也达到了一种瓶颈状态。我们基本上已经用尽了可用的数据资源。因此，当你查看GPT-5和GPT-4的语言模型时，会发现训练成本增加了很多，不再是线性增长的趋势。另一方面，强化学习（RL）的进展虽然是线性的，但不具备通用性。比如，你可能开发了一个很好的编程模型，但它可能在一些方面表现得很笨拙。这和三年前的看法大相径庭。可以说，目前还没有一种既能很好地扩展又能通用的方法，不过这确实为开发一种在各个领域中更具用户友好性和高效性的方法打开了大门，而不仅仅依赖于基础模型结构。
Now those models are incredibly important and they're and I think open AI is probably 80% of the revenue and AI are something like that now like it's massive. So that foundation model is really really important and then like that the basic consumer app is really really important that just answers whatever hell you want to know like those things are like very very real but I do think you know particularly and then if you get into like enterprise stuff and then it's no longer internet David's their data that becomes very different like Databricks is having a lot of success there because okay well once you're inside a company guess what like you care about access control and that's hard with an AI world you know it gets strained on some stuff how does it know who has access to that information who doesn't and so forth you have semantic issues.
这些模型现在变得极为重要，我认为OpenAI可能贡献了大约80%的收入，AI在这一领域的影响力是巨大的。因此，这一基础模型真的非常重要。另外，基本的消费者应用程序也非常重要，因为它能够回答你想知道的任何问题，这些东西确实非常实用。不过，我确实觉得，特别是在涉及企业应用的时候，情况就不再是像互联网那样，而是变成了企业内部的数据，这就有所不同了。像Databricks在这方面非常成功，因为一旦进入公司内部，你会关注访问控制。在AI的世界里，这很难处理，因为AI是基于某些数据进行训练的，它怎么知道谁有权访问这些信息，谁没有，因此你会遇到语义问题。
So if you look at an enterprise fine 10 enterprises they all have a different definition of what a customer means like you would think customer is a basic thing well is that a department at H&T is it H&T is it like a person at H&T is like what the hell is the customer and it turns out to be very very very meaningful particularly if you're trying to figure out like important games like churn and this and that and third so like that kind of stuff matters so it's it I would just say like the problem spaces a lot bigger than you can just attack with a basic foundation model um and you know currently you know maybe that will change and like if that changes then certain prices will have in retrospect look way inflated and others will look you know too low but you know that that is TGBD.
如果你观察一下十家企业，你会发现他们对“客户”的定义各不相同。你可能觉得“客户”是一个基本的概念，但实际上，在不同的部门，甚至是在同一家企业中，“客户”可能指的是不同的东西。比如在一家叫H&T的公司里，“客户”可能是一个部门，是公司本身，或者是某个具体的人。因此，明确“客户”这个概念非常重要，尤其是在分析客户流失等关键问题的时候。所以，这类问题的范围比你想象中要大得多，仅仅依靠一个基础模型是不够的。目前，也许未来情况会有所变化，那时候一些企业的市场估值可能显得过高，而另一些则过低。不过，这些都是未来的事情。
So a big takeaway from this is that there's still tons of opportunity for founders to start companies building AI products. I think so, I mean he can solve so many everything that we couldn't solve a software we can solve now almost, so it's a really big world. And it's funny, you know, like it because we're investors in Waymo and one of the things when you get into like what took so long to make Waymo this is so safe like they are now it wasn't the things that everybody reported on the podcast. It wasn't the sleet and you know heavy rain and it was people. It was like the human who was driving 75 in the 25 zone; it was very hard for the AI to anticipate because it was rare but important. The number of rare important crazy shit that humans do is very high and I think that goes for all of AI.
所以从这一点来看，创业者依然有大量机会去创办开发AI产品的公司。我认为，我们现在几乎可以解决许多以前用软件解决不了的问题，这是一个非常广阔的世界。有趣的是，我们是Waymo的投资者，而Waymo现在取得如此高的安全性所花的时间，不是大家在播客中讨论的那些因素，不是雨雪等恶劣天气，而是人。比如有的人在限速25英里区域却以75英里的速度行驶，这种情况AI很难预测，因为它是罕见但重要的。人类做出这种罕见但重要的疯狂行为的数量很高，我认为这对所有AI系统都是适用的。
So to make things work really well you have to understand this very kind of fat tail of human behavior along this AI thread. Something that is really important to you, clearly something you talk a lot about, is the US being successful in AI and being in leading the world in AI. Why is this so important? Why is something spent all at time on it? It starts with, I think, my view of the US and its role in the world. So my personal view is like it's very, very, very important not for society to be completely fair because it's not going to be completely sure or completely equal because we've never had one that's been completely equal. But it's important that everybody have a chance at life, you know, particularly, you know, kind of both culturally but also just like you can't advance the world if you know you can't tap into all of your resources.
要做到真正地成功运作，你必须理解在这条 AI 发展线上人类行为的这种明显的“肥尾”特征。这对你而言非常重要，很明显你常谈论美国在 AI 方面取得成功并引领全球的主题。为什么这如此重要？为什么值得花时间去研究？这始于我对美国及其在全球中角色的看法。就我个人而言，我认为确保社会完全公平并不是最重要的，因为社会从来没有完全平等过。但是，重要的是每个人都有生活的机会，无论是从文化上还是实际上，因为如果我们无法利用所有资源，我们就无法推动世界的进步。
If you kind of take away your motivation and these kinds of things, you get into trouble. If you look at the kind of every country today, this is by the way, so you want like the right amount of decentralized power and you know you don't want it to be completely concentrated. Concentrated power makes it very, very difficult for everybody to have a chance. This is the big kind of lesson of communism over the last hundred years; it turned out right. And you know, we still have politicians selling it this way today. It's like oh, it's power into the people, then I know it's power to you because you're removing all power from the private sector and installing it into the government, and then you're putting yourself in charge of the government; hence I become extremely powerful.
如果你失去了动力和类似的东西，你就会遇到麻烦。如果你看看今天的每个国家，事情是这样的：你需要合适程度的权力分散，而不是权力高度集中。权力集中让每个人都很难有机会。过去一百年的共产主义给了我们一个重要的教训：这种权力集中最终证明是正确的。然而，即便如此，今天仍有一些政治家以这样的方式推销它。比如说，哦，这是权力归于人民，但是实际上，我知道这是权力归于你，因为你正在剥夺私营部门的所有权力，并将其归于政府，然后你掌控了政府；因此你变得极其强大。
And this is why it didn't matter if it was Mao or Pol Pot or Chuchesku or Stalin; everybody died because when you give anybody that much power, nobody has a chance. There is no incentive, there's no carrot, there's only stick, and so you use that. That's with some nature; it's a systems problem, it's not a person problem. It's not that Stalin was evil or Chuchesku was evil, it was like that system is evil. And that's a check; saying the fastest, and maybe Hitler musically, it doesn't matter, like that level of power is evil. The US does the best job systematically, it's the best system; it's got all kinds of issues, it's got problems, people always trying to defeat it.
这就是为什么无论是毛泽东、波尔·布特、齐奥塞斯库还是斯大林，当权者是谁并不重要，反正大家都难逃一死。因为当你给予任何人如此巨大的权力时，所有人都没有生存的机会。在这种环境下，没有奖励，只有惩罚，所以人们会利用这一点。这是一种性质的问题，是系统性的问题，而不是某个人的问题。不是说斯大林或齐奥塞斯库邪恶，而是那样的制度本身是邪恶的。这也是一个提醒：拥有绝对权力就是邪恶的，不管是希特勒还是其他人。美国在制度上做得最好，是最好的制度之一，虽然它也有各种问题，人们总在试图破坏它。
But you know, one of the things that you know if you look at kind of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, the language is very important; you know it's we hold these truths to be self-evident. What does that mean? It means they're not my word, it's not the president's will, it's God's will. And so those rules are above the president, and then you work in that context, and that distributes power because you're under the law not under the person. We see that even now with Europe where Europe is kind of the leaders are going, well, I have a rule; you can't say certain things or I'll throw you in jail.
你知道，如果你看看《独立宣言》或《宪法》，你会发现语言是非常重要的。例如，“我们认为这些真理是不言自明的。”这是什么意思呢？这意味着这些并不是某个人或总统的意愿，而是上帝的意志。因此，这些规则高于总统，工作也必须在这样的框架下进行。这种方式分散了权力，因为大家都在法律之下，而不是个人之下。即便在今天的欧洲，我们也能看到类似的情况，领导者可能会说："我有一条规定，你不能说某些话，否则我就会把你关进监狱。"
The kind of shield they hide behind is, well, like we have to keep the kids safe, but if you say something that I don't agree with and the kids hear it, they're not safe, right? The kind of transitive property of bullshit is going to override. So it's really important that we have at least like one society, and as flawed as we are, as flawed as the US is, it's still the best. You can see it by the number of new company creations, the number of new ideas that come out of here and so forth. It's really, really important that the US kind of stays important and powerful in the world.
他们用来隐藏自己的一种说辞是，比如说，我们必须确保孩子们的安全，但是如果你说了我不同意的话，而孩子们听到了，那么他们就不安全了，对吧？这种荒谬的逻辑关系终究会占上风。因此，我们至少要有一个社会，尽管我们有缺陷，美国也有缺陷，但它仍然是最好的。从这里产生的新公司数量、新想法的数量等等，你可以看出这一点。保持美国在世界上的重要性和强大是非常非常重要的。
And we know from the last century, if you look at the last century, who were the countries that had economic power, military power, cultural power? You were the ones that industrialized. Yeah, and the ones that industrialized first and best, and the ones that did, became counties, right? Like, you know, Russia, China; they were slow on industrialization and they fell into this very fricking dangerous system. Looking forward that's going to happen again, but it's going to be AI. So it is kind of fundamentally important not just to like America but to humanity that America succeeded at that. You know, like we don't have to be the one winner or adjust or that but we do have. to be like in that tier and you know as I go around the world and travel I can't tell you everybody and then everybody was getting by the way very very worried about us uh earlier and they say like we need you to succeed you know don't destroy the dollar don't like fall behind the AI don't overregulate it too early don't do these thanks please because we need you to win like because we're all like counting on that
在上个世纪，我们知道拥有经济、军事和文化力量的国家是哪些？这些国家都是率先完成工业化的。那些最早、最成功实现工业化的国家，成为强国。比如俄罗斯和中国，因为工业化迟缓，陷入了非常危险的体系中。展望未来，这种情况将再次发生，但这次的核心是人工智能。因此，美国的成功不仅对美国自身至关重要，对整个人类也是如此。我们不一定要成为唯一的赢家，但必须处于领先地位。当我环游世界时，不少人非常担心我们，他们说需要我们成功。他们希望我们不要破坏美元经济，不要在人工智能上落后，也不要过早地进行过度监管，因为他们都在依靠我们引领发展。
uh and and I think it's um it's the most important work that we do it's why we're so involved in policy and and and so forth um I think this is also you know Jerry gonna be very very true with crypto which ends up being an incredibly important networking technology that compliments AI and uh and so that's yeah and that you know that work is I would say be on for the money to like that's you although like we will end up making a lot of money with the right policies like so I don't want to like seem totally philanthropic on this but but it's more important than that it's certainly more important than us succeeding or anything like that that that country succeed speaking of philanthropic and other passions if you're something that I don't think most people know about you and I think we'll give them another insight into how interesting you are you uh run an organization called paid in full which uh is incredibly cool talk about what that's about why this is so important to you well we kind of are ethos as a firm is um kind of uh whether it's something from nothing um you know like that this is a greatness of entrepreneurship you serve with nothing and then you you make something really important and um you know that that kind of that that is also how hip hop started where you have like a bunch of kids who didn't even have instruments um and they kind of created something out of nothing and the people in that world always talk about that
嗯，我认为这是我们所做的最重要的工作，这也是为什么我们如此积极参与政策制定等事务。我觉得这在加密货币领域也是非常真实的，最终它成为了一种极其重要的网络技术，能够补充人工智能的发展。我想说这项工作超越了金钱，尽管我们会通过正确的政策赚到很多钱，但我不想让这看起来完全是慈善行为，这件事比金钱重要得多，比我们成功或其他事情都重要得多，它关乎国家的成功。
说到慈善和其他兴趣，还有一件事我觉得大多数人不知道的，但可能会让他们更了解你的有趣之处，那就是你运营了一个名为“Paid in Full”的机构，这非常酷。能不能谈谈这个机构的内容，以及为什么它对你如此重要？
我们的公司理念就是无中生有，也就是说这是企业家精神的伟大之处，你从无到有创造出了一些非常重要的东西。嘻哈文化也是这样开始的，一群甚至没有乐器的孩子创造了从无到有的奇迹，并且这个圈子里的人总是谈论这一点。
and you know one of the really unfortunate things that happens is the people kind of who invent the art form and certainly in the case of hip hop don't get anywhere near the kind of proportional benefit of their invention and a lot of the guys uh you know people have forgotten about or you know are kind of struggling to make ends meet and so forth so what we created was this thing called the paid in full foundation named after uh the rock him Eric B. S.A.M. which I did call rock him and ask him for permission to use his name so read it just taken and what we do is we give essentially pensions to the older operas um that enable them to kind of continue their work uh and then we have a big event go to paid in full foundation dot org for tickets which is amazing where they kind of get the award and uh you know and they're celebrated by all their peers and so forth and it's really phenomenal but you know so some of the awardees have been uh rock him scar face uh from the ghetto boys um rock sand shantay grandmaster Kaz Kulmode this year we're honoring uh George Clinton for being sampled uh cool g rap and grand pruba and also uh jelliel from uh hudini
翻译成中文：
你知道，真不幸的是，许多创新艺术形式的人，尤其是在嘻哈音乐方面，他们的创造并没有给他们带来相应的好处。很多这样的艺术家现在已经被人遗忘，或者正在为生计奋斗。因此，我们创建了一个名为"Paid In Full Foundation"的项目，这名字来源于Rock Him和Eric B.的作品。为了使用这个名字，我真的有联系Rock Him并征求了他的同意。我们的项目主要是为这些老艺术家提供养老金，让他们可以继续他们的创作工作。
我们还举办了一场盛大的活动，大家可以在paidinfullfoundation.org获取门票。活动非常精彩，艺术家们会获得奖项并被同辈们庆祝和认可。真的是非常了不起。曾经获得过奖项的艺术家包括Rock Him、Scarface（来自Ghetto Boys）、Roxanne Shanté、Grandmaster Caz、Kool Moe Dee。今年，我们将表彰George Clinton因其作品被采样，以及Cool G Rap、Grand Puba和来自Whodini的Jalil。
um and it's just it's very i can't even describe how high impact it is on these guys i mean i think rock him was during close to two hundred nights a year and he got his award and came out with his first album in fifteen years and is doing amazingly well and all this son you know everybody's going oh yeah that's the greatest rapper of all time so like they're finally going back and remembering all the things he did uh rock sand shantay i mean nobody had mentioned her in years and years and years and i think six months after we gave her the award and the Grammys gave her a lifetime achievement award which is amazing so it's a super high impact it's a great thing you know it's a hip hop KMSA dream come true so it's not only built what is what's the origin story of you and hip hop i imagine many people look at you and wouldn't uh imagine you you see these records behind you naws gifted you you uh you're so deep into the community just how did this all begin well so there's i actually wrote a blog post on it called the legend of the blind mc
嗯，这真的很难形容这对他们的影响有多大。我觉得，像Rakim那样的人每年大概有近两百个演出，当他获得奖项并在十五年后推出首张专辑时，非常成功。于是，大家都在说他是有史以来最伟大的说唱歌手。人们终于开始回顾并记住他做过的那些事情。
同样地，Roxanne Shanté，在我们给她颁奖之前，已经很多年没人提到她了。我觉得大概六个月后，格莱美也给了她终身成就奖，这真是太了不起了。所以这真的是影响深远的事情，是一件很伟大的事。这就像是一个嘻哈界的梦想成真。
所以，这不仅仅是建立了什么，而是你和嘻哈之间的起源故事。我想很多人看到你，可能不会想到你和这些有联系。看到你背后的那些唱片，是Nas送给你的，你深深扎根于这个社区。那么这一切是如何开始的呢？事实上，我写过一篇博客，叫做《盲MC的传奇》，里面讲述了这个故事。
which i think would be uh if you're really interested it's worth reading but it this kind of a story of me uh becoming a rapper and um and like how that occurred and how it went and so forth but uh you know like i was adding very short story is you know i was in New York when it we were at the birthday hip hop and we're at the birthday when it really became big kind of 84th or 88 and yeah it's just the most exciting thing you know to see a new art form kind of pop out and the creativity and everything you know well the edge music kind of it becomes mainstream i would take it's very shaped by business and like in the early days there's no yeah everybody's just coming out with whatever idea they have and so forth then so there's the early days of rock and roll were like that the early days of jazz were like that.
我觉得，如果你真的感兴趣，这段经历值得一读。这是关于我如何成为一名说唱歌手的故事，以及这一过程中发生的事情和经历。我可以简单地概括一下：我当时在纽约，当说唱音乐诞生并在1984年或1988年左右真正变得流行的时候，正好赶上了音乐发展的那个关键时期。看到一种新的艺术形式出现，并充满创造力，实在是令人兴奋。新兴的音乐形式往往会逐渐主流化，并受到商业的影响。在早期，每个人都会提出自己的创意，就像摇滚乐和爵士乐的早期一样。
so i see now even more why you guys uh brought on eric torneberg uh beyond as many talents he's also really big into rap himself yeah yeah yeah i need to that that's a good reminder i need to make sure i guess to pinfall not here Ben this was incredible yeah is there anything else that you want to leave listeners with or share before we get to our very exciting quick lightning round um yeah i mean i would just say on you know like if you're a CEO and listening to this then know that like how you feel about yourself is going to end up meaning as much as anything and show like take your time on that don't don't uh you know like self-evaluation is the one of my favorite quotes is um that when maro madruz saw me as selectlers no and there no from this day on no credit will be given for predicting rain only credit for building an arc and i think that's more true for a CEO's than anybody you know you have to build our like it doesn't matter like if you predict you're gonna fail you still fail it does it it gets you nothing.
翻译：
所以我现在更明白为什么你们会找Eric Torenberg，他除了有很多才华之外，还非常喜欢说唱音乐。对，对，对，这提醒了我，我得确保把这件事情弄清楚。Ben，这太棒了！在我们进入非常激动人心的快速问答环节之前，你有没有什么其他的想和听众分享的？
嗯，是的，我只是想说，如果你是一名CEO并在收听这个，那么你要知道你对自己的感觉最终和一切一样重要，花些时间在这方面。不要忽视自我评价，我最喜欢的一句话是：“从今天起，人们不再因预测下一场雨而得到表扬，只有建造方舟才会得到认可。”对于CEO来说，这比任何人都更真实。你必须建造自己的方舟，仅仅预测失败是没有意义的。即使你预测到会失败，如果真失败了，也于事无补。
um so what you have to do is to figure your way out of it and spend all your time on that well with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round up we got five questions for you are you ready yes sir first question what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people not including your own books yes so two got um i learned a lot from one is the weirdest people in the world which um it's a kind of big history book but through an anthropological kind of cultural lens and it's really fascinating explains and awful lot about like how society works and how little changes in the rules completely change the culture um you know one of the things that he he basically endeavors to explain okay why did the west get ahead on the rest of the world and and it kind of comes down to like a weird anomaly with the Catholic church where they kind of enforced um monogamous marriage and it turns out that the natural state of humans is polygamy.
好的，你需要做的是想办法解决这个问题，并将所有时间都投入到这个问题上。那么现在我们进入一个非常激动人心的快速问答环节，我们有五个问题要问你，你准备好了吗？是的，先生。第一个问题：除了你自己的书之外，你经常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？
是的，有两本书我学到了很多。一本书是《世界上最奇特的人》，这是一部从人类学和文化角度撰写的大历史书，非常吸引人。它解释了很多关于社会运作的原理，以及规则的小变化如何彻底改变文化。书中作者试图解释为什么西方社会在全球范围内占据领先地位，这其实与一个奇怪的现象有关，即天主教会推行了一夫一妻制，而人类的自然状态其实是多配偶制。
um but the problem with polygamy is there's no cooperation among men um which is a problem uh and as a result uh and then everything is secret so there's no shared there's no sharing of knowledge uh because it's all kept in the family and what he calls kin based culture at least it's something called kin based culture and like even recipes won't be shared if you're in a kin based culture because it's a secret um so you can't build science you can't build cities you can't build big companies um and you know so because the west kind of enforced broad monogamous marriage early it was able to kind of be involved in all these things and he kind of shows why and how he does these psychological tests today with people from kind of monogamous culture marriage culture kind of like western culture and kin based culture and the psychology is completely different and he gives examples like um yeah if a person murders another person is that still murder if that person who did the murder as your brother in western society yeah that's a murder in kin based culture it's not murder it's just not and so like that's really different and so like morality is different like everything kind of comes off of that so it's just a fascinating joss-imaving book uh so that's that's one.
问题在于多配偶制导致男性之间缺乏合作，这就带来了问题。而且所有事情都变得秘密，知识无法得到分享，因为一切都保留在家庭内部，属于一种所谓的“亲属文化”。在这种文化中，连食谱都不会共享，因为那是秘密。因此，你无法建立科学、城市或大公司。
西方社会因为早期普遍推行一夫一妻制，才能够参与到这些事物的发展中。书中通过心理测试展示了来自一夫一妻制文化和亲属文化的人在心理上的完全不同。举个例子，在西方社会中，即便一个人是你兄弟，他杀了人那也是谋杀；而在亲属文化中，这不被视为谋杀。因此，西方和亲属文化的道德观非常不同，一切都源于此。这本书非常有趣，引人深思。
um i take you know another book that i recommend a lot of shock his book uh his first book writing my lines he has a new book that i think is better which is called how to be free uh so i'm going to start it's not quite out i think or maybe it's for leasing it's releasing like next month so i recommend it so what it does it goes through like how did he work his way out of prison and solitary confinement to his current psychology and what are the techniques he used um it's um they're very powerful very powerful ideas so i think that like you know she always asks now like how do you deal with it like how do you deal with it you know and that's gonna like work like balance or like then it's like ready to talk about no work like balance for she's um particularly like entrepreneur CEOs like come on but like what do you do do you meditate you do this to that but he kind of goes through.
嗯，我想向你推荐另一本我常常推荐的书。这本书是由一位很有才华的作家写的，他的第一本书是《书写我的生涯》。他现在出了一本新书，我觉得更好，叫《如何获得自由》。这本书即将面市，我想应该要到下个月才发布，所以我推荐给你。
这本书讲述了这位作家是如何从监狱和单独禁闭中走出来的，以及他到达现在这种心理状态所使用的技巧，书里的观点非常有力量。总有些人问他是如何处理这些事情的，像是如何应对压力啊，如何找到工作和生活的平衡，特别是对于那些企业家和CEO们来说，他们总是想知道他采取了哪些做法，比如冥想之类的。书中详细描述了这些方法。
the things that we really ought to do so that that's what i would recommend of some of these wondering like how do you deal with all this pressure i love this uh just the whole idea of shock of being this uh help for CEOs someone that killed someone went to prison let a prison gang uh i just love that now what is left. First he brings turned out to be really complicated thanks to man man it's enough to it's very forgetting into this but the problem with running a prison gang is you're just dealing with people who all come from broken culture right like so in any organization like the fundamental thing is trust and so you're you you're bringing in a bunch of no trust people and so you can't and like and it's kind of like a military organization it's a gang and if you think about a military operation if you don't have trust people don't trust the order then you're completely dysfunctional.
以下是对这段文字的中文翻译，尽量简化以便易读：
我们应该做些什么呢？这是我对那些感到困惑的人所建议的，尤其是那些面对压力不知道如何处理的人。我喜欢这个想法，就是成为一个能够帮助首席执行官的人，即使是有人曾经犯罪、坐牢，甚至在监狱中领导帮派。我很喜欢这种挑战和变化。
首先，他所带来的事情原来相当复杂。管理一个监狱帮派的问题在于，你要处理的都是来自破碎文化背景的人。在任何组织中，信任是最基本的东西，而你要面对的是一群不具备信任基础的人。这就像是一个军事组织，因为它是一个帮派。如果在军事行动中，人们不信任命令，那么整个组织就会完全失去功能。
so how do you build trust from zero is a very interesting problem and he's a genius at that by the way uh and you know i learned a lot uh from peniton to him about it so like that from a management standpoint it's a i would just say it's an important kind of a boundary case of how you build culture and uh so he is very very smart at that i mean just show and i've had to like i said you have to look at people about you know their greatness not not the worst thing they ever did i know there's a lighting around but uh can you just share one example of something he did that was like wow that's a really good lesson if someone trying to create a good culture that worked for him yeah so like one of the things that he did that that i thought was um really smart is well i did a couple thing one is just like a simple thing was he just made everybody he launched together in the game just to kind of build rapport relationship trust like it's all one thing we're all together in that and i think you know like particularly in like remote world and so forth people really underestimate how powerful like just that idea can be.
要从零开始建立信任是一个非常有趣的问题，而他在这方面简直是个天才。此外，我从他那里学到了很多，尤其是如何从管理的角度来看待这个问题。建立信任是创建企业文化中一个非常重要的边界问题，而他对此非常在行。要评价人，我们应关注他们的优点而不是他们曾犯过的错误。我知道时间有限，但能否分享他做过的某件给你留下深刻印象的事例，以说明如何成功地创建一个良好的企业文化？
当然，例如，他做的一件让我觉得非常聪明的事是——虽然看似简单——但他通过让团队成员一起午餐这种方式来建立联系和信任，让每个人感受到这是一个团结的集体。特别是现在远程办公变得普遍，人们往往低估了这种方法的强大作用。
and then you know another thing he did is he he made kind of like morality you know he he had kind of very specific things about you know if you you you had to be good to your word internally and externally um and so normally again you went like you know like i said it's kind of like a kin based culture thing but it made it much more powerful when he said look like you you can't do devious like shit outside the gang either um and he had a bunch of examples of that that i went through in the book but it's a very um like it like i said because you're building it from zero you really have to take a hard line on things that i think people in companies don't even take a hard line like you know is it okay to lie internally probably not so okay to lie to a customer well in some organizations it is um but like in shock as organization like that's as big a kind of tea as lying internally.
翻译成中文并表达意思：
然后，你知道他做的另一件事是他确立了一种道德观。他对某些事情有非常具体的要求，比如说，你必须在内外都信守承诺。通常情况下，这种观念在基于亲属关系的文化中会出现，但当他说你在团伙外部也不能做那些狡诈的事情时，这种观念的力量就变得更加强大了。他在书中列出了许多这样的例子。正如我所说，因为从零开始建立这种文化，你真的必须对某些事情立场坚定，而这些事情往往是公司里不会如此强调的。比如说，内部撒谎是否可以？可能不行。那么，对客户撒谎呢？在一些组织中这可能是可以的，但在Shock的组织中，对外撒谎就像对内撒谎一样严重。
and and these things I think I'm being really important we're gonna link to this book this is uh what you do is who you are this is your second book that fewer people know about and this is one of the stories you tell and just what the lessons are yeah it's kind of more advanced book you know like i think people don't you kind of have to survive to want to care about dealing with the cultural issues and so the survival book has bigger audience amazing okay uh we're gonna keep going with lighting around is there a favorite recent movie or tv show you have really enjoyed yes so on tv i really like slow for instance which is like uh the show about the m i six kind of castoffs um guys and then i you know i haven't seen a lot of movies lately but i watched centers i went to the uh the theater with centers and it's i mean just the cinematography is unbelievable and the story is really original and the acting is incredible and the costumes are amazing so it's just like a great kind of comprehensive piece of work like people have the craftsmanship on that thing is just a lot beyond what most people making movies are doing these days so i i really enjoyed that yeah i hate scary. movies but i i watched it and loved it wasn't that scary it wasn't that scary but still you know zombies popping out of corners yeah not not my jam usually yeah
翻译成中文：
这些事情我认为真的很重要，我们会链接到这本书，这本书就是《你做什么决定你的样子》，这是你的第二本书，知道的人比较少，这是你讲述的一些故事，以及这些故事中包含的教训。这是一本比较深奥的书，我觉得大家在解决文化问题时，通常需要先解决生存问题，而生存问题的书籍往往有更大的受众。
好的，我们继续快速提问环节。最近你最喜欢的电影或电视剧是什么？
是的，在电视方面，我很喜欢《Slow》，这是一部关于MI6遗留人员的剧集。而我最近没怎么看电影，但我去电影院看了《Centers》。这部电影的摄影技术非常惊人，故事很原创，表演也很出色，服装设计也很棒。整体来说，这就是一部非常完整且精彩的作品，制作者的技艺超越了当今大多数拍电影的人，我非常喜欢。虽然我不喜欢恐怖电影，但我看了这部而且很喜欢，它并不是特别恐怖，只是有僵尸突然冒出来，不是我平时喜欢的类型。
is there a product you recently discovered that you really love it could be a gadget it could be closed could be something else i bought a coffee machine called the techno vorm mocha master which is freaking incredible in fact a friend of mine saw it i was like what is that and i just bought a pram too because it's so awesome like this thing makes coffee that it's just like pressure like there's no bitterness it's completely clean it's amazing like if you don't only calm with it is i can't drink coffee that it doesn't make anymore i know that's a good thing about them oh yeah might be i might come out someday in the a i future yeah
最近你有没有发现什么让你特别喜欢的产品？可能是小工具，也可能是衣服，或者其他东西。我买了一台叫Technivorm MochaMaster的咖啡机，真是太棒了！事实上，我的一个朋友看到它的时候，也忍不住问我这是什么。我还买了一辆婴儿推车，因为它实在太赞了。这个咖啡机煮出来的咖啡没有一点苦味，非常干净，简直让人惊叹。唯一的问题是，现在我只想喝这台机器煮出来的咖啡。如果未来的AI科技能让其他咖啡机达到这种水平，那就太好了。
yeah uh two more questions one do you have a is there like motto that you often come back to find really useful in worker life the thing that i would say has had the biggest impact on me is something my father said to me years ago um which is life isn't fair and that that seems like really really simple but i think that um the thing that defeats people more than any other thing that i've seen just in life is the expectation of some fairness uh you know like it's just not fair and there are like all kinds of stuff that are going to happen to you that you know it and happens to everybody um that don't happen to other people that are completely unfair but it doesn't matter because that's the way it is and as soon as you get that idea out of your mind um then you can just deal with it like oh yeah of course it's not fair but what should i do now which is the real question not how do i go back and get people to be fair because nobody's going to be sure it's not fair it's the nature of it if you think about it from more than five seconds you'll realize that and i think a lot of uh you know and it's as an individual like if you want to make the world a better place whatever but for as an individual do not expect anything to be fair it'll only defeat
翻译成中文：
是的，呃，还有两个问题：第一个是，你有没有常常用来激励自己或者在工作生活中经常回想起的格言呢？对我影响最大的一句话，是我父亲多年前对我说的，那就是“生活是不公平的”。这句话听起来非常简单，但我觉得，在生活中最容易打败人的，莫过于对公平的期待。很多事情对你而言可能都不公平，而这些事情会发生在你我他身上，却不会发生在其他人身上，是完全不公平的。但这不重要，因为这就是现实。一旦你把“期待公平”这个想法抛开，你就能更好地应对：“哦，对，当然不公平，但接下来我该怎么办呢？”这才是真正的问题，而不是怎样让别人对你公平，因为没有人会真的公平。这是不公平的本质。只要稍微想一下，就能明白这个道理。对于个人来说，无论你想让这个世界变得更美好，还是仅仅作为一个普通人，都不要期望任何事情是公平的，因为期待公平只会让你失望。
final question this comes from shock actually uh you gave me so many great suggestions i had to save this one for last okay so the question is if you had to build a business curriculum from two hip hop albums and one funk album what would they be and what i think probably follow the leader um by where i came i thought that was so and and and the reason is kind of uh what we had kind of gotten into earlier which is um leadership so when he came out with that song which he was like we know maybe the greatest hip hop song ever written you know he's telling people to like follow him um you know follow the leader uh and just to have the idea that he was the leader of the entire art form nijaysta you know his band well it isn't like an amazing idea um and and then the way he expressed it was incredible and then he's got uh he's got other great concepts of mayor um that would give you like it's hard to listen to that record not have confidence i think from a like competitive purely competitive standpoint still mad at um drum naz i mean that's one with the ether that's the one with uh get yourself a gun that's the one with you to man it's kind of like all of us like the idea of competition is kind of encapsulated in that in that album so that that would be the other one
最终的问题实际上来自于一个冲击。你给了我这么多出色的建议，我不得不把这个问题留到最后。那么问题是：如果你必须用两张嘻哈专辑和一张放克专辑来构建一个商业课程，它们会是什么？
我想可能是《Follow the Leader》来自Rakim。我觉得这张专辑很有代表性，原因在于我们之前讨论过的领导力。当那首歌推出时，它可能是被认为有史以来最伟大的嘻哈歌曲之一。他在歌中告诉人们要跟随他，要"追随领袖"，并且表现出他是整个艺术形式的领袖的想法非常惊人。此外，他的表达方式也非常出色。他还有其他关于自信的精彩概念，听这张专辑很难不感到自信。
然后从纯粹竞争的角度来看，我会选《Stillmatic》来自Nas。这张专辑包括《Ether》、《Get Yourself A Gun》和《You're Da Man》等。竞争的概念在整张专辑中被很好地体现。因此，这会是另一张选择的专辑。
and then funk go for one nation under group for sure one nation under group because it's kind of like this is uh uh how do you initiate people into like a concept or an idea and and he write how do you infuse them like one nation under a group is all about joining the nation um and like it's so musically interesting and and kind of getting people to be part of that that does from like i don't know if you asked me tomorrow i probably have three other ones incredible i'm gonna go listen to these bed and final question we're huckin listeners be useful to you if you get something that makes you better please take it which you need kind of a word vice on it let me know but um like my job is to help everybody build something great so if you're if you're a notch for nerver thank you for that uh also check out paid in full paid in full foundation that or if you want to learn more about yes definitely we would love to have you amazing then thank you so much for being here all right awesome thank you Lenny bye everyone
翻译后的中文版本：
然后，放克音乐为了创造一个“群体之下的国家”，确实是这样。因为这就像是，你要如何把人们引入一个概念或想法。他写道，你如何让他们融入其中。所谓“群体之下的国家”就是关于加入这个国家。而且，这在音乐上是如此有趣，并且能让人们成为其中的一部分。
如果你明天问我，我可能会有三个其他不同的想法。真的太棒了。我现在要去听这些。最后一个问题，我们的听众如果能从中得到一些能让自己更好的东西，请务必使用。如果你需要关于它的任何建议，告诉我。我的工作是帮助每个人构建一些伟大的事情。所以，如果你是一个新手，非常感谢。同时，请查看 "Paid in Full" 基金会（Paid in Full Foundation），如果你想了解更多。是的，我们非常期待你的加入。
非常感谢你的到来，太棒了。谢谢你，Lenny。再见，各位。
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