Best of IdeaCast 2022
发布时间 2023-01-04 01:23:12 来源
摘要
From incivility for frontline workers to struggles with hybrid work to actual progress made since the murder of George Floyd, HBR IdeaCast spent 2022 sharing impactful management research and exploring the social and business trends that affect workers and leaders. Join hosts Alison Beard and Curt Nickisch as they listen in on some of their favorite interviews of the year. They share what made these conversations so memorable and insightful and why they’re still worth a listen—or a re-listen—in 2023.
Alison’s and Curt’s Picks:
The Positives—and Perils—of Storytelling
Let’s Protect Our Frontline Workers from Rude Customers
Fighting Bias and Inequality at the Team Level
Sad, Mad, Anxious? How to Work Through Your ‘Big Feelings’
NASA’s Science Head on Leading Space Missions with Risk of Spectacular Failure
Advice from the CEO of an All-Remote Company
GPT-4正在为你翻译摘要中......
中英文字稿 
There's another HBR podcast you might like. Cold Call dives deep into Harvard Business School's legendary case studies. You'll learn how leaders of some of the world's biggest brands like AirBnB, World, BMW, and others make their hardest decisions and approach new challenges. Get cold call on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
有一个HBR的播客你可能会喜欢。 冷调研究哈佛商学院传奇的案例研究。 你将了解一些世界上最大品牌的领导者，如AirBnB，世界一流的BMW，以及其他公司如何做出最困难的决策并应对新的挑战。 在Apple Podcasts，Spotify或你获取播客的任何其他地方收听冷调研究。
Welcome to the HBR Idea Cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Kurt Nickish. I'm Allison Beard. You heard right. We are both here today and we're doing something a bit different. Most weeks you hear us talking to experts and practitioners about the latest thinking and business and management, everything you need to lead. But the end of one year and the start of another seemed like a good time to reflect on what we covered in 2022.
欢迎收听《哈佛商业评论》的HBR Idea Cast。我是库尔特·尼克什。我是艾莉森·比尔德。没错，今天我们俩都在这里，而我们正在做一些有些不同的事情。大多数时候，您听到我们与业内专家和从业者讨论最新的商业管理思想，所有您需要领导所需的。但一年的结束和另一年的开始似乎是回顾我们在2022年所涵盖的内容的好时机。
The conversations that stuck with us and might be most useful to you too. We've gone back and picked out some of our favorites from the year to revisit because we think they're worth listening to again.
我们记得的那些谈话，可能对您也非常有用。我们回顾了去年期间的一些最爱，因为我们认为它们值得再次听一遍。
Yeah, it was really hard to choose, but I think we ended up focusing on ones that felt timely and sort of really meaningful in the year that just passed. So I want to start by bringing back one of our early episodes from 2022. Turn out maybe to be a bit prophetic with some of the stuff in the news with some of the corporate scandals.
是的，选择真的很难，但我认为我们最终专注于那些感觉在刚刚过去的一年里具有时代性和真正有意义的话题。因此，我想以我们2022年早期的一集节目作为开头。事实证明，在一些企业丑闻的新闻中，它可能会有一些预言性。
The Theranos trial was in the news this year. Yeah, and more recently there was the FTX, Alameda Research, Crypto, Defrotting Investors, Market manipulation. Not there was, there is, right? It's still unfolding and we're learning a lot about it. So these are happening now, but I was really interested in scandals because last year we did this deep dive reporting on Carlos Gone at Nissan Renault. And it got me thinking about the stories that companies tell to consumers and to investors, right?
今年新闻中提到了Theranos的审判。是的，最近还有FTX、Alameda Research、Crypto、Defrotting Investors、Market manipulation这些事情。不是过去了，而是目前还在发生，对此我们正在学习。所以这些现在正在发生，但我对丑闻真的很感兴趣，因为去年我们进行了深入的报道，关于Nissan Renault的Carlos Gone。这让我想到了公司向消费者和投资者讲述的故事，对吧？
And that's why I wanted to talk to Jonathan Gottschull. He's a distinguished fellow at Washington and Jefferson College and an author. And in episode 840, he talked us through the upsides and downsides of storytelling in business.
这就是为什么我想和Jonathan Gottschull交谈的原因。他是华盛顿和杰斐逊学院的杰出研究员和作家。在第840集中，他逐步讲述了商业叙事的优缺点。
Stories aren't good. Stories are just powerful. I think it's better to think of stories as mercenaries. The force of storytelling as a mercenary that sells itself just as eagerly to the bad guys. As soon as you're telling a story, you're in an ethically fraught situation. Because basically what you're doing is you're trying to use a form of messaging that's not quite explicit.
故事不好，但故事非常有力量。我认为最好将故事想象成雇佣兵。说故事的力量就像是一名雇佣兵，它们同样热切地向坏人出售自己。一旦你开始讲故事，你就处于一个伦理问题的困境中。因为你实际上在尝试使用一种不太明确的信息传递方式。
Storytelling is always sort of indirect and that's the power so people don't get as skeptical and they don't get as suspicious. In my years in the storytelling industrial complex, attending conferences and reading other people's books, I noted quite frequently that the power of storytelling was often likened to a Trojan horse.
讲故事总是有点间接的，这就是它的力量，以便人们不会很怀疑，也不会很猜疑。在我参加讲故事行业的年头里，参加会议并阅读其他人的书籍时，我经常注意到，讲故事的力量常常被比作特洛伊木马。
And this is a pretty good analogy for how stories work. The idea is that you have this beautiful structure, this thing we all love, the Trojan horse was this beautiful work of art. But it's smuggling in something else. It's smuggling in a message. The Trojan horse, people forget, is a weapon of war. It holds inside of its belly an event, a massacre. The Trojan horse is not a metaphor for the warm and fuzzy side of storytelling. It is a metaphor for the easy weaponization of stories.
这是一个关于故事运作方式的很好的比喻。它的主旨是你有一个美丽的结构，一件我们所有人都喜欢的东西。特洛伊木马就是这样一件美丽的艺术品。但它却偷偷携带着另一个东西，一个信息。人们往往忘记特洛伊木马是一种战争武器。它的肚子里藏着一场屠杀事件。特洛伊木马并不是关于故事温暖和融洽面的象征，相反，它是关于故事作为武器使用的一种隐喻。
I found that really provocative and got a lot of nice comments from listeners who said the same thing. It's just a good reminder that all of the tools that we teach people, whether it's storytelling, whether it's how to motivate people, how to lead, a lot of these are tools that can be used for good and for bad.
我发现这真的很挑衅，听众们也给了我很多赞同的评论。这只是一个好的提醒，我们所教授给人们的所有工具，无论是讲故事，还是如何激励人们，如何领导，这些都是可以用于善良和邪恶的工具。
Yeah, it sounded like Jonathan had a bit of an aha moment when he was at a corporation doing a seminar on storytelling and realized that he had just been talking to people who were selling junk food, sugar water around the world. He thought to himself, well, do I want to help these people tell this story? I guess that's what prompted him to start studying the downsides of storytelling.
对，听起来像是当Jonathan在参加一个关于讲故事的讲习班时，在一家公司时有了一个灵光一现的时刻，他意识到他刚刚在与那些在全世界售卖垃圾食品和糖水的人交谈。他自问，我想帮这些人讲述这个故事吗？我猜这也激发了他开始研究讲故事的负面影响。
What I found most interesting is this point that he made about the fact that all good stories have a problem and resolution. I was like, oh, that's interesting to think about in a marketing sense. It reminded me of Clay Christensen's job to be done. What problem are you solving? Companies need to really think honestly about how they're doing that. What is the pain point that they are fixing for customers or clients or business partners and not make it up? Make it true. Then it goes back to strategy. It's sort of like the story I'm telling needs to be true. Let's figure out a strategy that makes it so. If the enemy in your story or the antagonist is not a worthy enemy, maybe you should find a different story to tell.
我觉得最有趣的是他说的关于所有好故事都有问题和解决方案的这一点。我想，从营销的角度来看这个问题很有意思。这让我想起了克莱·克里斯滕森的“工作需要做到”的概念。你在解决什么问题？公司需要认真考虑他们是如何做到这一点的。他们解决的是客户、客户或业务伙伴的哪些痛点，而不是创造一个假的。把它变成真实的。然后再回到战略。这有点像我正在讲述的故事必须是真实的。让我们找出一项使它成为现实的战略。如果你的故事中的敌人或反派不是一个值得的敌人，也许你应该找一个不同的故事来讲述。
Yeah, exactly. Another timely topic that we focused on was diversity, equity, and inclusion. We talked to James White, the former CEO of John Badgeuse, who's black, about what it means to lead an anti-racist company. I recently spoke to Ella Washington about the stages of corporate DEI work. We wanted to highlight an interview that you did Kurt with someone who's really in the trenches teaching people to fight bias and inequality at the team level in the course of everyday work.
是的，完全正确。我们关注的另一个及时话题是多元化、公平性和包容性。我们与曾是约翰-badgeuse公司(John Badgeuse)的首席执行官，也是一名黑人的詹姆斯·怀特(James White)谈起了如何领导一个反种族主义的公司。最近，我与埃拉·华盛顿(Ella Washington)讨论了公司 DEI 工作的阶段。我们希望突出一个你与某位真正身处战斗中的人进行的采访，这个人正在教导人们在日常工作中去对抗偏见和不平等，以团队为单位。
Here is Trier Bryant, the co-founder and CEO of JustWork, in episode 862. We have biostat's ruptures. One of the things that we talk about leaders implementing to disrupt bias is that you have to have biostat's ruptures so people know and have the tools on how to flag bias in that moment. The three things you need to create biostat's ruptures is a shared vocabulary, a shared norm, and a shared commitment.
这是Trier Bryant，JustWork的联合创始人和CEO，在第862集中。我们正在讨论生物统计的破裂点。我们谈论的是领导人所实施的打破偏见的方法，你必须拥有生物统计的破裂点，让人们知道并具备如何在那一刻发现偏见的工具。您需要创造生物统计的破裂点的三件事是共享的词汇，共享的规范和共同承诺。
The shared vocabulary is a word or phrase that whenever someone says it, everyone knows that someone has just flagged bias or noticed bias. We have teams and clients that say, bias to learn, stop sign, stop red light. On our team, we say purple flag. We throw purple flags left and right, and that's our shared vocabulary of flagging bias.
共享词汇是一个词或短语，每当有人说了它，大家都知道有人刚刚标记了偏见或者注意到了偏见。我们有些团队和客户会说“偏见学习”、“停车标志”、“红灯停止”。在我们的团队里，我们用“紫旗”来表示偏见。我们左右扔着紫旗，这就是我们共享的标记偏见的词汇。
I loved how she also explained how you, if you're somebody who makes a mistake or says something insensitive and you're called out, just how to react to that in a productive way, I thought that was just super valuable. I think she came out really strong saying companies aren't doing enough. In the wake of George Floyd's murder, Black Lives Matter protests, so many companies made commitments, but have they followed through and she basically said not enough yet. Right, so she's not the false cheerleader. She speaks truth.
我喜欢她还解释了如果你是一个犯错或言过其实而被点名的人，该如何用积极的方式去应对，我觉得这非常有价值。我认为她表现得非常强硬，说公司做得不够。在乔治·弗洛伊德被谋杀、黑人的命也很重要抗议活动中，很多公司做出了承诺，但他们是否做到了，她基本上说还不够。 所以她不是虚假的啦啦队长。她说真话。
Yeah, exactly. I really loved her personal stories and the stories that she had heard from clients and friends. She talked about being the first Black student at her private school about meeting where there was a female venture capitalist who was the men that she was meeting with, sat closer to her male colleagues and directed all their questions to them. You think to yourself, is this really happening still in 2022? Then she talked about her own decision to call out her boss on an insensitive comment. The boss's reaction was, I wish you'd said that in front of everyone because I need you to speak up. They talk about it, it sounds a little bit cheesy, but they talk about it being an upstander, not a bystander. I like that. I think we should all try to be upstanders more often.
没错，我真的很喜欢她的个人故事以及她从客户和朋友那里听到的故事。她谈到自己是私立学校第一个黑人学生，还提到了一次见面时遇到一个女风险投资家，那些男人把她放在一边，所有的问题都被他们转移给了她的男同事。你会想，这种事情还会发生在2022年吗？然后她谈到了自己因一句不敏感的评论而对上司进行抨击的决定。老板的反应是，我希望你当时是在所有人面前说出来的，因为我需要你大声说出来。他们谈论此事时，可能听起来有些肉麻，但他们谈论的是成为一个勇于站出的人，而不是旁观者。我喜欢这个想法。我觉得我们都应该更经常尝试成为勇于站出的人。
So being an upstander was also a theme in the next episode that we're highlighting. Number 885. This is a conversation about instability with Georgetown professor Christine Porath. Here's part of what she had to say.
所以成为一个“upstander”（拥护正义的人）也是我们接下来要突出的主题。第885集是与乔治敦大学教授克里斯汀·波拉思（Christine Porath）谈论不稳定的话题。以下是她的部分观点。
In 2005, nearly half of people surveyed reported that they were treated rudely at least once a month. This past August, over 76% of people claimed that they had been treated rudely in this month time. So that's quite a rise within the last six years in particular. Sadly, it's prevalent across the globe right now. And my experience over the last couple decades has been that every industry believes that they are the worst. Unfortunately, it is bad in so many places. I would have to say the extreme as far as at least intensity. And then how often people are witnessing it though. Healthcare was a big one that popped.
在2005年，近一半接受调查的人报告称他们每个月至少被粗鲁地对待一次。而在今年八月，超过76%的人声称他们在这个月内被粗鲁地对待过。所以特别是在过去的六年里，这种情况出现了很大的增长。不幸的是，这种情况现在在全球范围内都很普遍。我在过去的几十年里的经验是，每个行业都认为自己是最糟糕的。不幸的是，这种情况在很多地方都存在。我不得不说，至少在强度方面是极其严重的。人们见证这种情况的频率也很高。医疗保健是一个最突出的例子。
And I think we're probably not surprised by that maybe, but it's hard to imagine given how much these people are serving us, particularly putting their health on the line through the pandemic for us that they would encounter this much rudeness. Those stats actually came from a research project that HBR commissioned Christine to do for its big idea series, which I'm involved in.
我觉得我们可能不会感到惊讶，但难以想象这些人为我们服务，特别是在疫情期间冒着健康风险，竟然会遇到这么多的无礼。这些统计数据实际上来自于一项研究项目，由HBR委托Christine为其重大想法系列进行的，我也参与其中。
We wanted to know if all of those viral videos that we've seen of people behaving badly in cafes on planes and hospitals treating frontline workers just terribly was a real trend and a global one. Or were we just seeing some really egregious but not that common examples and unfortunately, Christine's findings as you heard were pretty depressing. Incivility is on the rise, not just in the US, but around the world. And this is really important right? We spend a lot of time talking about what is said and how people are treated within companies. But the way a lot of employees encounter the world is in talking to people outside the company.
我们想知道我们看到的那些在咖啡馆、飞机上和医院里恶劣对待一线工作者的病毒视频是否是一个真正的趋势和全球性的趋势。或者我们只是看到了一些非常明显但并不常见的例子，不幸的是，正如你们听到的，克里斯蒂娜的发现非常令人沮丧。不礼貌的行为正在不断增加，不仅在美国，而且在全世界范围内。这真的很重要，对吧？我们花了很多时间谈论公司内部的言论和人们接受待遇的方式。但很多员工接触世界的方式是与公司外的人交流。
Yeah, and the point we wanted to make is just that companies have a responsibility to protect their employees from this kind of abuse. You know, like it is possible to nudge customers toward kinder behavior. It is possible to refuse service to people who don't comply. And workers need to know that their bosses and their organizations have their backs and that the customer is not always right.
是的，我们想要表达的观点就是公司有责任保护其员工免受这种虐待的伤害。你知道，像引导顾客更友善的行为一样，拒绝为不能遵循规定的人提供服务是可行的。而且员工需要知道他们的老板和组织站在他们这一边，而顾客并不总是对的。
Yeah, it's easy to see all the news stories right about unruly passengers on flights, for example, but it just listening to her, it's a mind boggling. Just how many workers are experiencing this every day? We talk about burnout, we talk about emotional labor.. I'm sure this really contributes to that a lot for a lot of people.
是的，很容易在新闻中看到关于飞行中不守规矩的乘客的报道，但仅仅听听她的故事就会让人震惊。每天有多少工作人员都经历着这种情况呢？我们谈论过工作疲劳，我们谈论过情感劳动...我确信这对很多人来说都起到了很大的贡献。
Yeah, I know. I think there's this thinking like, well, everyone's really stressed right now. Everyone's really anxious. We've just been through a pandemic. There's political unrest, you know, all over the world. There's a war in Europe. You know, there's climate change. We have a lot of things to worry about. And so it's hard to behave nicely, but really it's not. You know, it's not an excuse. And Christian's research shows that like even just witnessing this type of behavior will cause you to have a worst day, be less productive, be less engaged.
是啊，我知道。我认为有这样的想法，认为现在每个人都非常紧张。每个人都非常焦虑。我们刚刚经历了一场大流行。世界各地都存在政治动荡。欧洲有一场战争。你知道，气候变化也是一个大问题。我们有很多事情需要担心。因此，要表现得友好并不容易，但实际上并不是借口。克里斯蒂安的研究表明，即使只是目睹这种行为，也会导致你的一天变得更糟，工作效率更低，投入度更低。
You know, so I think the point that she made that stuck with me the most was not about what organization should do. It was not about managers should do, but was what about each of us should do as an individual. It's not being too busy to make eye contact or say a meaningful thank you. You know, incivility is not just outright abuse. It's also just treating someone like nothing. It's ignoring them. You know, it's just making them feel as if they're not a person or human.
你知道，我认为她说的最让我印象深刻的观点并不是关于组织应该做什么，也不是关于经理应该做什么，而是关于我们每个人作为个人应该做什么。不要因为太忙而没有时间看对方的眼睛或说一句有意义的谢谢。你知道，不礼貌不仅限于公然虐待他人，还包括对待某些人就像无物一样一点都不在乎，完全漠视他们。你知道，那样会让人感到自己不是人，没有人性。
Let me turn to another episode that's also slightly related. There's clearly a theme here. I almost didn't include this one because we had lots of other good ones to pick from. I mean, I got to interview the comedians here, a Cooper about humor work this year and Rolling Stone editor, Yan Wanner about managing creative talent. And most recently, I talked to director Ron Howard about collaborative leadership, but this one that you're about to hear just felt more timely and helpful and appropriate for a review of what really mattered in 2022.
让我转到另一个略微相关的插曲。很明显这里有一个主题。我本来差点没包括这个，因为我们有很多其他好的可以选择的。我的意思是，我采访了这里的喜剧演员，与 Cooper 谈论了今年的幽默工作，Rolling Stone 的编辑 Yan Wanner 谈论了管理创意人才。最近，我还与导演罗恩·霍华德谈论了合作领导力，但是你即将听到的这个对于2022年真正重要的事情的回顾来说，感觉更加及时、有帮助和适合。
It's episode 865 with authors and advisors Liz Foslin and Molly West Duffy. We called it sad, mad, anxious, how to work through your big feelings. And here's some practical advice from Molly.
这是第865集，作者和顾问Liz Foslin和Molly West Duffy在节目中。我们称之为“悲伤、生气、焦虑——如何处理你的强烈情绪”。下面是Molly提供的一些实用建议。
Beyond just stopping and sitting with it, one of the mantras that we love is, is I am a person who is learning blank. And that just reminds us, I don't have to have all the answers right now. Like, we're all working through unprecedented times. And so let's stop eating ourselves up for feeling anxious or not knowing what's going to come next instead of saying, I don't know how to manage people. I can't do this. You might say, I'm learning how to be a great manager in a hybrid work environment. Or you might say, I'm such a bad parent during COVID. And you might say, I'm learning how to care for an infant and transition into taking care of an infant during COVID. And that helps us adopt, you know, growth mindset.
除了停下来、跟它坐下来以外，我们很喜欢的其中一个口号是，“我是一个正在学习空白的人。”这提醒我们，现在我不必要掌握所有答案。我们都在适应前所未有的时代。因此，让我们停止为自己感到焦虑或不知道接下来会发生什么而自责，而不是说，“我不知道如何管理人。我做不到这个。”你可以说，“我正在学习如何在混合工作环境下成为一名优秀的管理者。”或者你可以说，“在 COVID 期间，我是一个如此糟糕的家长。”你可以说，“我正在学习如何照顾婴儿并过渡到在 COVID 期间照管婴儿。”这有助于我们采用成长的心态。
So Kurt, as you know, because we are friends as well as colleagues, I had a lot of big feelings this past year, or climate change, the erosion of civil rights and democracy. My kids, my marriage, my job. Love. Yeah. So I feel like I asked our producer, Mary, to book this just because I selfishly wanted to hear how I could stay productive.
那么 Kurt，你知道的，因为我们既是朋友又是同事，我在过去的一年里有许多大的情感，例如气候变化、民权和民主的侵蚀。还有我的孩子，我的婚姻，我的工作。爱。是啊。所以我感觉我要求我们的制作人玛丽安排这个节目只是因为我自私地想知道如何保持高效。
Yeah, I don't think you're alone. What I liked about her framing is just that ability to, you know, it's obviously a good thing to acknowledge you don't have all the answers. But to change it into like, I don't have all the answers. I'm learning this is a process. And it's moving in the right direction. That's how things change. I think that's, that's really, really helpful.
是的，我认为你并不孤单。我喜欢她的表述方式，因为她能够让人了解到，承认自己没有所有的答案是一件好事。但要将其转变成“我没有所有的答案。我正在学习，这是一个过程。而且进展顺利。”这样的说法更好，因为这就是事情发生变化的方式。我认为这非常有帮助。
We all have kind of empowering through. We can't just ignore our emotions, but I think we all know we really can't anymore. Good managers need strategies for helping with emotions, whether that's coming from themselves or in their teams.
我们所有人都拥有某种程度的赋权。我们不能简单地忽视自己的情感，但我认为我们都知道我们真的不能再这样做了。优秀的管理者需要制定更好的策略，帮助自己或团队处理情感问题。
Yeah, or customers as we just talked about. Yeah.
是的，就像我们刚才谈论的那样，顾客是非常重要的。是的。
One thing is though that might be a little bit harder in knowledge work organizations because so many of us have not returned to the office full time. Remote work is a huge theme, particularly this year as companies are really trying to figure out their strategies. Are we hybrid? Are we all remote? Are we making everyone come back to the office?
有一件事是需要注意的，这对于知识工作组织可能会更加困难，因为我们中的许多人还没有全职回到办公室。远程工作是巨大的主题，特别是今年，因为公司正在真正努力探索他们的策略。我们是混合型？我们都是远程的吗？还是要让每个人回到办公室？
We are both in the studio together now. I am usually in my closet taping these episodes. And that's because I just find it easier to work from home, especially when I'm editing, which is the other half of my job. I like hanging out with my kittens. I enjoy not having a commute. It's nice to not always have to get dressed up.
我们现在一起在工作室。我通常在我的衣柜里录制这些剧集。因为我发现从家里工作更方便，特别是当我在进行剪辑工作的时候，这也是我的工作的另一半。我喜欢和我的小猫咪一起玩。我喜欢没有通勤路程。不必时刻打扮得漂漂亮亮也很不错。
How often are you coming in? It varies kind of depending on the work that I'm doing. I've started coming in more.. Even when there aren't a lot of other people at the office. I like the distinction between home and work and almost sometimes think of the offices, my co-working space, I come in, there's coffee, a couple of other people around. But I don't get distracted by stuff at home and I can really get a lot of work done. But I also enjoy the flexibility of working from home to, so even for me personally, I'm kind of still figuring it out.
你频繁来办公室吗？这有点取决于我所做的工作。我开始更加频繁地来，即使办公室里没有很多其他人。我喜欢家和工作之间的区别，有时我甚至会认为办公室是我的合作空间，我来了，有咖啡，周围还有几个人。但在家里，我不会被其他事情分心，可以做很多工作。但我也喜欢在家工作的灵活性，所以即使对我个人来说，我还在摸索当中。
Well, so as individuals and bosses and corporate leaders are deciding what they want to do for the future. I did want to go to a source who has been doing remote since he started his company. This was before the pandemic and has developed pretty elaborate strategies around how to make it work. 2015, we came to the US and he said, look, working remote, we've seen it before, works for engineers, but you can't do it for finance or for sales. So you should get an office and we got an office. But the same thing ended up happening.
嗯，所以每个人，老板和企业领导都在决定未来要做什么。我想找一个源头，他自己开公司就一直以远程为主。这是在疫情前，他已经制定出了非常完善的策略，使得远程能够顺利运作。2015年，我们来到美国，他说，看，远程工作，工程师们已经做得很好了，但你不能让财务和销售人员远程工作，所以你应该租个办公室，我们也租了一个。但最终还是发生了同样的事情。
They showed up for one or two days and then they just started working from home or a different location. I thought, hey, is there something wrong? I made sure that I really showered those days. And I thought, okay, what's important for me? Well, it's important that we make progress that we get results to this day. That's one of our values. It's not about the inputs. It's not about the number of hours that you put in. It's about the results you achieve.
他们出现了一两天，然后就开始在家里或不同的地方工作了。我在想，嘿，有什么问题吗？我确信那些日子我真的洗了个澡。然后我想，好的，对我来说什么最重要呢？哦，我们取得进展，我们达到了这一天的成果，这是很重要的。这是我们的价值观之一。这不是关于投入的，不是关于你投入的时间。这是关于你取得的成果。
And as a manager, you shouldn't push people to kind of work longer hours. You should push people to achieve more results and enable them to do so. And at a certain point we said, look, we're just going to make this official. We're going to make this our policy because it's so much better to have everyone remote and to have a hybrid company where some people are always at the office and some people are always remote. That was the voice of GitLab CEO and co-founder Sid Cibrandi in episode 877, advice from the CEO of an all remote company. It's not just an all remote company. It is apparently the largest in the world. We're actually about to publish an article with Sid that goes into even more detail about how he did it.
作为一个经理，你不应该逼迫员工加班。你应该推动他们获得更多的成果，并让他们能够做到。我们最终决定将这项政策正式发布，因为每个人都远程工作并让公司形成混合模式，一部分人总是在办公室，一部分人总是远程工作，这样更好。这是GitLab的CEO和共同创始人Sid Cibrandi在第877期“来自全远程公司CEO的建议”中的声音。不仅仅是全远程公司，这家公司似乎是世界上最大的公司。我们即将发表一篇文章，详细介绍Sid是如何做到的。
So I think the point is it creates a lot of deliberate effort to sustain community and culture. But it actually can be done. And it often leaves employees more productive and happier, especially in industries like tech where everyone can work that way. What I liked about hearing from him is just the experience they had to really think through the situation and make strategic choices. Not just default.
所以我的理解是，它需要大量有意识的努力来维持社区和文化。但实际上它是可以做到的。特别是在科技行业，每个人都可以这样工作，这通常会让员工更有生产力和更快乐。我喜欢他的讲述之处在于，他们有经验真正地考虑该情况，并做出战略性选择，而不是默认的做法。
We're going to do the same things we were doing in the office and we're going to do things like that remotely. It's like they really had to think about how are we going to do things differently as a remote company and be really deliberate about that. Yeah, they do some really what we might think of as odd stuff. He has a very long online description of how to work with him. Everything from his weaknesses to how to ask him for a meeting to his hobbies. It's just it's so transparent. Everything is documented. Even self-awareness is documented.
我们将做与办公室里一样的事情，但会以远程的方式进行。就像他们真的必须考虑我们如何在成为远程公司后做出不同的事情，对此必须非常谨慎。是的，他们做一些我们可能认为很奇怪的事情。他有一个非常长的在线说明，说明如何与他合作。从他的弱点到如何请求与他会面，再到他的兴趣爱好，所有一切都是如此透明。一切都有记录，甚至是自我认知。
Yeah. So if you have a question and you work for GitLab, you can actually just Google it. You can say GitLab, manual, and then put in your question. And you'll get this open source document that everyone in the world can see that should answer your question. And that replaces the sort of person in the cubicle next to you. One of my favorite comments that he made was talking about meetings and how no meeting should ever be a presentation. Because no one should ever have to sit and listen to something that they could watch asynchronously.
嗯，所以如果您在GitLab工作并有问题，您实际上可以在Google上搜索它。您可以输入GitLab手册，然后输入您的问题。您将获得这个开放源代码文档，全世界的人都可以看到，应该可以回答您的问题。这代替了旁边隔壁小隔间的人。他所说的我最喜欢的一句话是关于会议的，他说没有任何会议应该是一次演示。因为没有人需要坐下来听他们不需要即时收看的东西。
And also there are lots of portions of meetings that aren't relevant to all the people attending. So if a portion of a meeting isn't relevant to you, you don't have to pay attention to it. It's like, whoa! He's like endorsing multi-tasking, but he's not. He's saying, if this isn't relevant to you, we're trusting you to make your decision about what you should be paying attention to at this moment. You own your feet. You can pick up and leave. Yeah. Yeah, he's a pretty cool leader.
还有许多会议的部分并不是所有出席者都相关的。所以，如果一部分会议对你来说不相关，你就不必关注它。就像，哇！他好像在支持多任务处理，但其实不是。他是在说，如果这对你不重要，我们相信你会自行决定此时应关注什么。你拥有自己的选择权。你可以起身离开。是的。是的，他是一位相当酷的领导者。
Well, we're going to end with one of my very favorites from the year. I this year was just enthralled by a bunch of the NASA missions. They went up and diverted and asteroid. We started seeing these incredible, incredible images coming from the James Webb Space Telescope project. It's so nice. And so it's wild to think of those projects and those missions and how they're actually done.
好的，我们要以我最喜欢的一件事来结束今天。今年我非常着迷于NASA的一些任务，他们上天并改变了一颗小行星的轨道。我们开始看到从James Webb太空望远镜项目中传来的惊人图像。这太棒了。想想这些项目和任务是如何实现的，真是太不可思议了。
They're obviously difficult, complex.. They're done by really smart people all around the world. We've got an interview with Thomas Sirbuken, the head of science at NASA to talk about this. I don't think you know this, but he was my advisor at the University of Michigan.
他们显然是困难、复杂的。由世界各地真正聪明的人完成。我们有一次采访，与NASA科学主管托马斯·塞伯肯交谈这个问题。我想你可能不知道，他曾是我在密歇根大学的导师。
Oh, wow. I didn't. I was there for a year as a fellow in journalism. And I was working on a research project that had nothing to do with aerospace engineering, which was his field. But he took the time to show me around the university, introduce me to faculty that he thought would be valuable for my research. And it just struck me that somebody who had deep, deep knowledge and expertise and something was so willing to engage with somebody who wasn't directly in his field. He was definitely a very multidisciplinary person.
哦，哇。我没想到。我在那里作为新闻研究员待了一年。我正在做一项与他所从事的宇航工程无关的研究项目。但他花时间带我参观大学，介绍了对我的研究有价值的教授。它让我感到震撼，一个对某些事情有深刻知识和专业技能的人如此愿意与不在他领域的人接触。他绝对是一个非常多学科的人。
He's always trying to think about how to do things differently, how to be innovative. So it didn't surprise me at all that he went under become the head of science at NASA. And here's what he told us. Every mission, when I came in as a leader in my position, I basically asked that every mission has at least one technology that is new. So the missions that come behind it can take advantage of it. And so we've done that consistently, have changed our launch paradigm to enable that as well.
他总是试图思考如何以不同的方式行事，如何创新。因此，他成为了NASA的科学主管，这一点并不让我惊讶。他告诉我们，每次任务，当我担任领导时，我基本上会要求每个任务至少有一种新技术。这样，后面的任务就能利用它。我们已经始终如一地做到了这一点，并改变了我们的发射模式，以实现这一目标。
And so basically when you do that, though, what you cannot do at the same time is kind of tell people you can never fail. So I do, I spend a lot of time accepting failure. So basically telling people, look, we make mistakes around here. And I want you to be comfortable doing that. And I want to give you the space. Now, I am not accepting stupid mistakes, right? You come drunk to work and you got into an accident. That is not the type of mistakes we're talking about. I am talking about things that where we do the best job as best as we know and they still don't work. Somebody needs to say that's okay. And it's the person who, if you want, I will testify to Congress. And that's me.
所以基本上，当你这样做时，你不能同时告诉人们你永远不会失败。所以我花了很多时间接受失败。基本上是告诉人们，看，我们这里会犯错误。我希望你们能够自在地做到这一点。我也想给你们空间。现在，我不接受愚蠢的错误，对吧？比如你喝醉了上班，然后出了事故，这不是我们谈论的类型的错误。我说的是我们尽可能做到最好，但仍然不起作用的事情。有人需要说这没关系。如果你愿意，我可以在国会作证。这就是我。
And so for me, it's really important that the team has the freedom of thought, the liberty to take those risks and move forward. And so it's very easy to turn off innovation in your organization. And that is the first person who's innovating. And this trying really, really hard to do something new and it doesn't quite work. If you go after that person, so the person is disperited as basically is punished for that. The good news is you'll never get a person like that again who tells you that they have not quite been successful. But you also have turned off the innovative capability of your entire organization.
对于我来说，团队有思考自由和冒险前进的自由非常重要。然而，在组织中止创新非常容易。第一个尝试创新的人如果失败了，如果你打击了他，他将感到沮丧并被惩罚。好消息是，你将再也找不到像他那样告诉你他们没有完全成功的人了。但你也会关闭整个组织的创新能力。
So it was a great time to talk to him because he was winding down his time at NASA. We also talked about why he decided to leave when he did. If you want to hear that whole conversation, it's episode 880 titled NASA Science Head Unleading Space Missions with Risk of Spectacular Failure.
所以在他快要离开NASA的时候，跟他聊天是一个很好的时机。我们也谈到了他为什么会决定在那个时候离开。如果你想要听整个谈话的话，那就是第880集的节目，题为NASA科学主管领导有风险的太空任务。
I really love that episode too. What NASA does really blows my mind in part because I'm a words person, not a math and science person. I love his personal story about growing up in a religious household but falling in love with science. I also love how seriously he takes the job of leadership and management. He is this brilliant scientist clearly. But he also really knows how to get the best out of people. And he navigated different agencies, lots of bureaucracy, three very different presidents. So Poma, Trump, Biden, which much has been like Whiplash.
我也非常喜欢那一集。NASA所做的事情真的令我惊叹，部分原因是因为我是一个语言人士，不是一个数学和科学方面的专家。我喜欢他个人的成长故事，他在一个宗教家庭中长大，但却爱上了科学。我也很欣赏他对领导和管理工作的认真态度。他显然是一位杰出的科学家，但他也真的知道如何发挥人们的潜力。他应对了不同的机构、大量的官僚主义和三位非常不同的总统。所以，庞卡、特朗普、拜登，这些年的经历让人感觉像是鞭挞。
But I think because he is so singularly focused on what is the goal? How do we as a team accomplish this goal? How do I get the best out of everyone on this team? How do I get them to admit when they're struggling? How do I kill projects that aren't working? He just has a great management mind in addition to a great scientific mind. So it was really inspiring.
但我认为，因为他极度专注于目标，他会想：“作为一个团队，我们应该如何完成这个目标？如何让团队中的每一个人都发挥其最佳水平？如何让他们承认他们正在遇到的困难？如何结束不行的项目？”他不仅有卓越的科学头脑，还拥有非常出色的管理能力。这真的让我受到了极大的鼓舞。
Yeah, it's just super useful for us to hear lessons from totally different industries because there is in the end just so much in common to being a great leader and a great manager. My very favorite comment that you made to him was, yeah, I was really happy to get this interview because you sent me an email saying, well, we're hitting an asteroid on Monday. We're launching a rocket on Tuesday, but Wednesday might work. Yeah, later in a week. Those are very different things that I have on my agenda. I know.
对我们来说，从完全不同的行业学习领导和管理方面的课程真的非常有用，因为成为一个优秀的领导和管理人员，有很多共同之处。你给他的最喜欢的评论是，是的，我真的很高兴能够接受这次采访，因为你发给我一封电子邮件，说我们星期一会撞上一个小行星，星期二会发射火箭，但是星期三可能行。嗯，这些是我日程安排上完全不同的事情。我知道。
So fun episode. It's fun to go back and listen to some of our favorites from the year. It'll also give us more ideas how to kind of expand our universe of episodes in the coming year.
这一集好好玩啊。回顾一下我们全年最喜欢的几个节目真是太有趣了。同时，这也会给我们更多的灵感，帮助我们在接下来的一年里扩展我们的节目世界。
Exactly. I knew there would be one cheesy joke. So it was a terrific, fun year. I learned a lot. I hope our listeners did too.. I can't wait for more in 2023.
确切地说，我知道会有一个俗套的笑话。但是这是一个非常棒和有趣的一年。我学到了很多东西。希望我们的听众也一样。我迫不及待地想要在2023年享受更多乐趣。
Yeah, thanks to everybody out there for listening. A reminder that you can hear all of these episodes we mentioned and more podcasts to help you manage your team, manage organizations and manage your career. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts or search hbr in Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
谢谢各位听众的收听。提醒大家，您可以收听我们提到过的所有一辑及更多的播客，以帮助您管理团队、管理组织和管理您的职业。请在hbr.org/podcasts或在苹果播客、Spotify或您听的任何地方搜索hbr寻找它们。
This episode was produced by Mary Doe, special thanks to audio production assistant Anna Bates. We get technical help from Rob Eckhart and our audio product manager is Ian Fox.
这一集由玛丽·杜制作，特别感谢音频制作助理安娜·贝茨。我们得到了罗布·埃克哈特的技术帮助，我们的音频产品经理是伊恩·福克斯。
Thanks for listening to the hbr.idea cast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Alison Beard. And I'm Kurt Nickish.
感谢收听hbr.idea cast节目，我们将于周二回归全新的一集。我是Alison Beard，我是Kurt Nickish。
Hi, it's Alison. Before you go, I have a question. What do you love about hbr? I worked at newspapers before I came to hbr and the thing that has impressed me most is the amount of attention and care that goes into each and every article. You know, we have multiple editors working on each piece. They put their all into translating these ideas typically from academia or from companies in practice into advice that will really change people's lives in the workplace.
嗨，我是艾莉森。在你离开之前，我有一个问题。你喜欢hbr的什么？在来hbr之前，我曾在报纸上工作，印象最深刻的是每篇文章投入的关注和关怀。你知道，我们有多个编辑为每个部分工作。他们全力以赴将这些来自学术界或企业实践的想法转化为真正改变人们工作生活的建议。
If you love hbr's work, the best thing you can do to support us is to become a subscriber. You can do that at hbr.org slash subscribe idea cast. All one word, no spaces. That's hbr.org slash subscribe idea cast. Thanks.
如果您喜欢hbr的工作，最好的支持方式就是成为我们的订阅者。您可以在hbr.org/subscribeideacast上完成订阅。这是一个单词，没有空格。谢谢。