The Subtle Art of Disagreeing with Your Boss
发布时间 2023-02-14 14:00:59 来源
摘要
Whether you're someone who enjoys ruffling feathers or the type of person who'd like to challenge the status quo but shies away, you'll benefit from understanding the best, research--backed ways to practice disagreement - even insubordination - while holding onto others' respect at work. Todd Kashdan is a psychology professor at George Mason University and the author of the book The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively. He explains how contrarians, and those with ideas that run counter to the mainstream, can pick their battles, articulate their arguments, and gain allies along the way.
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中英文字稿 
There's another HBR podcast you might like. Cold Call dives deep into Harvard Business School's legendary case studies. You'll learn how leaders of some of the world's biggest brands like AirBnB, Wordl, BMW, and others make their hardest decisions and approach new challenges. Get Cold Call on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
还有一个你可能会喜欢的HBR的播客。Cold Call深入研究哈佛商学院传奇的案例研究。你将了解到一些世界上最大的品牌如AirBnB，Wordl，BMW等的领导者如何做出他们最难的决策和面对新的挑战。即可在Apple Podcasts，Spotify或您获取播客的任何地方获取Cold Call。
Welcome to the HBR idea cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Allison Beard.
欢迎来到《哈佛商业评论》的思想播客，我是艾莉森·贝尔。
Are you a non-conformist? Someone happy to challenge the status quo, ruffle a few feathers, stir the pot? If so, this episode is for you. We're going to teach you how to keep doing all of that without annoying other people as much as you might do right now.
你是一个不随波逐流的人吗？你乐于挑战现状，打破一些常规，搅动一番？如果是的话，本期节目适合你。我们将教你如何继续保持这一点，同时减少你现在可能会引起他人不快的程度。
But this episode is also for everyone out there who's reluctant to stand apart from the crowd or cause trouble. Those of us who want to disagree with colleagues and bosses or family and friends sometimes but aren't exactly sure how to speak up and make our case, or even if we want to risk the consequences.
但这集节目也适用于那些不愿意与众不同或惹麻烦的人。我们中的一些人想要和同事、老板或家人朋友们意见不合，但不确定该如何表达自己的观点，甚至不确定是否要冒险承担后果。
It's also for managers who need to do a better job of wrangling both types of people to get the best from the catflies and the go-alongs. Here to help us is Todd Cashton, a professor of psychology and director of the Wellbeing Lab at George Mason University. He's the author of the book, The Art of Ince of Ordination, How to Descent and Defy Effectively. Hi Todd.
这本书也适合那些需要更好地管理和调和两种人才，来发挥猫和鱼的最大潜力的经理们。为我们提供帮助的是Todd Cashton，他是乔治梅森大学心理学教授和福祉实验室主任，也是《调解的艺术：如何有效地下降和反抗》一书的作者。嗨，Todd。
Thanks so much for having me. Ince of Ordination is a big word with a lot of negative connotations. Why do you see it as a good thing?
非常感谢你让我参加。Ordination Ince是一个带有许多负面含义的大词。你为什么认为这是一件好事呢？
We all live in these hierarchies. Some of them are power based, some of them are social status based. The idea of Ince of Ordination is that you are to some degree speaking outside of turn in terms of where you are in the hierarchy, what wrang you are, that you're willing to speak up against people that are potentially higher than yourself. There's a lot of research to show that just the presence of someone that descents from the majority or popular sentiments in a room increases the intelligence and decision making of that group.
我们都生活在这些等级制度中。其中一些是基于权力，一些是基于社会地位的。 "先例之犯" 的想法是，你在某种程度上是在等级制度中超出自己的位置，你愿意反对比自己可能更高的人。有很多研究表明，只是有一个不同于大多数或流行情绪的人在房间里出现，就可以提高该群体的智慧和决策能力。
And why does some people gravitate toward descent while others don't? I can assume it's both nature and nurture, but you definitely see the personalities who are always willing to do it and the personalities who really shy away from it.
为什么有些人会向下沉淀，而有些人则不会呢？我可以推测这既有天性元素，也有后天培养的因素，但你肯定会发现有些人总是愿意去做这件事，而有些人则非常害羞，不敢去做。
Well, in terms of principled ince of ordination or principled rebels, one of the misnomer's that's really important to correct is we think it's the people that are disengaged from the group. So if you really don't like the people on your soccer team, if you don't get along with the people in your workplace, you assume that those are the people that are going to fold their arms and disagree with what the committee says or what the group decides is a direction to go. And there's great research by Dominic Packer at Lehigh University that shows that what often leads to principled descent is someone that strongly identifies with the group and they care so much about the health and longevity of the group that they're willing to risk social capital to say something. And the other element that really predicts whether something will actually express their view is that they believe that the benefits of speaking outweigh the costs of saying nothing and staying silent and sticking with the herd.
哦，就授职或反叛的原则而言，其中一个重要的错误名称需要矫正的是，我们认为那些与团队脱离关系的人会做出反对姿态。所以，如果你真的不喜欢你足球队的人，如果你和你工作场所的人相处不来，你会认为那些人会抱臂不同意委员会所说的或团队决定前进的方向。而利哈伊大学的多米尼克·帕克在这方面有很好的研究表明，通常会导致原则性不同意的原因是一个人与团队关系密切，他们非常关心团队的健康和长久存在，甚至愿意冒着社交成本去说些什么。而另一个真正预测是否会实现他们的观点的因素是他们相信说话的好处大于保持沉默和跟随群体的成本。
Okay, so let's take one step back. What do you define as principled ince of ordination versus unprincipled?
好的，那么让我们退一步。在您看来，规定的原则与不合规的原则有何区别？
So I have this equation where you get these multiple elements in there. So you're talking about deviance from popular sentiments or the orthodoxy of the group. And that could be in the workplace at a school in your neighborhood with your friends. Then there's an element of, are you contributing to the welfare of the group versus this is just self focused and self absorbed. And the other element that's there is that is this authentic? Are you doing this because this is core to your values and what do you tope in more ideal world you imagine being or you're doing this for likability and status points. And you put those elements together and you get someone that's willing to disagree and speak out against dysfunctional norms, beliefs or ideas.
所以，我有一个方程式，其中涉及到多种因素。你所说的是不遵从普遍情感或团体正统观念。这可能出现在你的工作场所、学校、邻里或是朋友圈子。然后，还有一个元素，那就是你是在为团体的福利做贡献，还是只是自我为中心地自我关注。另外一个因素就是是否真实？你是因为这符合你的价值观和理想世界想象而这么做，还是为了得到喜欢和地位。当你把这些因素整合在一起，就会得到一个愿意反对功能失调的规范、信念或思想的人。
You know, in my experience, particularly in the workplace, people who dissent or challenge or provoke, they are still punished for it in some way, even when it's coming from a principled position. How do you get around that? You know, not being seen as a team player, not being seen as promotable to management.
你知道，在我的经验中，尤其是在工作场所，那些持不同意见、挑战或激起争议的人们，即使他们是基于原则的立场，仍然会以某种方式受到惩罚。你如何解决这个问题？你知道，不被视为团队合作者，不被视为可提升至管理层。
Right. So there's the notion that you're going to be rejected and socially persecuted is really highly probable. The real question to be asking yourself, if you're thinking about disagreeing with the direction or the idea is that a group is taking that you're a part of is, do I care about the contribution of what this group can accomplish more so than it care about my momentary psychological welfare?
好的，那么有一种观念是你很可能会被拒绝和社会迫害。如果你在思考是否要反对你所属的群体所采取的方向或想法，那么真正需要问自己的问题是：我是更关心这个群体能够实现的贡献，还是更关心我的短暂心理福利？
Because what we tend to find is in the intermediate aftermath of saying something, people are reluctant to be around that person and there is some rejection and negative valuation. But in the longer term, you find people will thank you and appreciate of you said what have been wanting to say for years. And then slowly, I call it the sleeper effect is that you find that you have more allies than you think because most people's preferences are not publicly represented and they only express them in private to their close friends and family.
因为我们常常发现，在说完话后的过渡期中，人们会不愿意与那个人在一起，会有一些拒绝和负面评价。但是在较长时间内，你会发现人们会感谢你，并感激你说出了他们多年想说的话。然后慢慢地，我称之为沉睡效应，你会发现你拥有的盟友比你想象的多，因为大多数人的喜好并没有公开表示，他们只会在私下里向亲密的朋友和家人表达。
Is it important to know that people are on your side before you decide to dissent? Yeah, if you're thinking about what are the most effective strategies to dissent against a dysfunctional idea that's taking hold in a group. The best way to go is to collect allies beforehand. And even a better strategy is to talk to people privately one at one people who you think will be opponents to your perspective.
在你决定反对时，知道人们是否站在你一边很重要吗？是的，如果你正在思考反对一个在团体中占主导的不正常想法的最有效策略，那么最好的方法是事先收集盟友。更好的策略甚至是私下与那些你认为会反对你观点的人一对一谈话。
Now, there's even a way of doing this is that when you're talking to someone that you think will disagree with your perspective to ask them, what do you think is potentially a cost of the direction that we're going? Here's an idea that I have and I'm wondering how I can get your thoughts and criticisms ahead of time before I speak to the group so I can potentially have some traction.
现在，甚至有一种方法可以实现这一点，就是当你正在与认为会反对你观点的人交谈时，询问他们，你认为我们要走的这个方向可能会有什么潜在代价？我有一个想法，我想在向团队发言之前先听听你的想法和批评，以便我有可能获得一些支持。
And the beauty of this strategy is it's not public facing because they are criticizing you in private. They are essentially a co collaborator on whatever you bring up to the group. And there's a psychological tie to who you are and what you're going to say when you speak to that group and you're also showing a little bit of respect and dignity towards them that you would take into the side and spend your time that they are so valuable that you would acknowledge them before speaking to the group.
这个策略的好处是，它不是公开的，因为他们是在私下批评你。他们实际上是你提出的任何问题的合作者。当你和这个团体交谈时，你和你所说的话之间有一种心理联系，并且你也向他们展示了一点尊重和尊严，你会先抽出一点时间去认真对待他们，因为他们非常重要。
And this is the way that you could potentially bring your greatest adversaries onto your side, even if they don't vote for you, they might be willing to reduce the length of the runway for your idea to get a hearing so that people at least willing to consider what you have to say.
这就是一种可能把你最大的对手变为你这边人的方法，即使他们不投票支持你，他们也可能愿意缩短跑道的长度，让人们至少愿意考虑你要说的话。
Are there other specific tactics that you recommend for people who want to dissent more? Oh, there's so many strategies.
您推荐给那些想要更多表达异议的人的其他具体策略吗？哦，有很多方法。
So one thing that's really important about an idea is if you're in the minority in terms of numbers or demographics are on a lot of people that look like you or think like you in a group. What you want to do is demonstrate that you have group loyalty before you reveal your counter idea to what the group is doing.
关于一个想法很重要的一件事情是，假如你在人数或人口统计方面处于少数，或者在一个有很多和你相似的人的群体中，你想做的是在揭示对团体想法反对意见之前，展示出你的团队忠诚度。
And so this is when you have to resist humility and say, you know, I've been part of this group for 17 years and you've seen me at functions, you've seen me at after hours working here, you've seen that my car is one of the first people that parks and gets the building in the office place. You've seen is that I have constantly volunteered for positions. So please know that I've been very serious before the idea of speaking out about the direction that the way the group is going. It's because I care.
所以在这里，你要抵制谦卑的态度，要说出来，你知道我已经在这个团队里呆了17年，你见过我参加各种活动，见过我在工作后加班，也见过我的车是第一批停在办公室楼里的。你也知道我经常自愿去担任职务。因此，请知道我在考虑说出团队走向时非常严肃，因为我在乎。
So you don't just want to say you care. You really want to offer behavioral evidence that you are in group member or that you care about the group. And this is when all of those acts of services offer an opportunity to have currency to spend at this moment where you get to do something that is against the will of the group at this moment.
所以你不仅想说你关心，你真的想提供行为证据，证明你是团体的成员，或者你关心团体。就在这个时候，所有那些服务行为就成了“货币”，可以在你需要做一些不符合团体意愿的事情时利用。
Yeah, so you're not just the person who's always grumbling in the corner. As you said initially, you need to be part of the group caring about the group and emphasizing that. Yeah, and even more important to that is you need the evidence to prove that to people you want to have before you speak people's defenses to drop.
嗯，所以你不只是那个总是在角落抱怨的人。正如你一开始所说的，你需要成为关心团队、强调团队重要性的一份子。是的，更重要的是你需要证据来证明你的观点，才能使人们放下防备听取你的言论。
You want the least threatening message possible. So the first one is to show I am a caring loyal member of this group. And the second part of that is you want to induce people's curiosity as opposed to a threat radar. And the way of doing this is to speak about what's possible, have a vision of an alternative way where the group can prosper and make a bigger difference even if there are short term painful cost to it.
你希望传达一条最不具威胁性的信息。所以第一步是展示我是这个团体中一个关心忠诚的成员。第二步是要引起人们的好奇心，而不是他们的威胁警报。做到这一点的方法是谈论可能的事情，设想一种替代方式，在其中，即使有短期的痛苦代价，该团体也能繁荣和产生更大的影响。
So when you're talking about shutting down a particular product that people were excited about that's going to cause a lot of short term friction. And in order to gain less defensiveness from other people is to point out what your magic would happen with those resources being spent elsewhere.
当你谈论关闭一个引起人们兴奋的特定产品时，这将会引起很多短期的摩擦。为了避免其他人产生防御心理，最好指出将这些资源投入其他地方会有什么魔力效应。
I think in a lot of corporations though, just the idea of descent is that it's creating friction that creates inefficiency, which is anathema successful organizations.. So how do you address that? So what you want to do is really focus on exactly what obstacles inefficiencies and problems are going to happen with this idea of being raised.
我认为在许多公司中，他们认为批评会产生问题，从而导致低效。这是成功组织所不欣赏的。那么如何解决这个问题呢？你需要专注于解决在提出批评时可能出现的障碍、低效和问题。
You're basically doing an audit of all the negative things you're anticipating exactly what people are going to say. Yes, this is going to take more time. Yes, this will be costly in the short term. Yes, this conversation alone is making the speed for us to make decisions slower, but is it more important for us to make better decision and have more information so that we actually do better in the long run compared to the short level of excitement and cohesion around this idea right now.
其实你正在审核所有可能出现的负面情况，准确地预测人们会说什么。是的，这需要更多时间。是的，短期内这将是昂贵的。是的，光是这个谈话就让我们做决策的速度变慢了，但是，对我们来说更重要的是做出更好的决策，获得更多信息，这样我们在长期内就能做得比现在更好，而不是仅仅追求短暂的兴奋和凝聚力。
So while inefficient, there's a stimulation of ideas that happens when we allow an embrace descent when it occurs.
因此，尽管效率低下，但当我们允许接受下降时，会激发思想的刺激。
Now, I've sort of jumped ahead and accepted your premise that we should all try to descent more. And you know, definitely we know that the bold innovators who really make a difference in the world are the ones who do that, you know, they drop out of school, they disagree with bosses, they fight the status quo. I'm thinking of tech CEOs, I'm also thinking of civil rights leaders like John Lewis, but you know, for those of us doing everyday jobs who don't naturally want to rebel, who might work in cultures where rebellion is discouraged.
现在，我有点超前了，接受了您的前提，即我们都应该尝试更多地下降。毫无疑问，我们知道真正改变世界的大胆创新者就是这样做的。他们辍学、不同意老板、与现状作斗争。我想到了科技公司的CEO，也想到了民权领袖约翰·刘易斯，但是对于我们这些平凡的工作者来说，我们并不自然地想要反叛，可能在文化上反叛是不被鼓励的。
Why should we try to start doing it more? Well, there's two reasons, one is the thing that is the architectural framework of a well-lived life is a sense of mission, a sense of purpose in life, a feeling that you contribute to something bigger than yourself.
我们为什么应该尝试更多地去做呢？嗯，有两个原因，一个是一个好生活的建筑框架就是使命感，人生目标的感觉，一种你为某个比你自己更大的事情做出贡献的感觉。
This is exactly how you do it where you are a unique idiosyncratic element of a workplace or a group and that you are not an interchangeable part with everyone else. It is your unique perspective, nobody who has ever walked the earth has read the same books as you, conversed with the same people as you had the same negative and positive life events as you, the same childhood history as you of friendships, failures, errors and mistakes.
这就是你在工作场所或团体中，独特的、不可替代的元素的表现方式。因为你拥有独特的视野，没有人像你一样拥有相同的阅读经历、与相同的人交流、经历相同的负面和正面事件、与你一样的童年友谊、失落、错误和过失。
All of that brings a perspective that is unique and is that these moments that you get to share that uniqueness and it makes you more fulfilled as a person, even if it's stressful.
所有这些都带来了一种独特的视角，这些时刻让你分享这种独特性，即使有压力，这也会让你成为一个更充实的人。
And it's what makes a group stronger even if you don't get credit for it. And I really want to emphasize is that if you do disagree, you might not get credit but there's a sense of empowerment, agency and meaning of realizing that you spent your finite amount of energy and time on this earth, in this workplace, offering something that is unique and valuable. And even if it's just recognizing is that the ideas that are being displayed and the ways that people are doing things is inefficient or it's not working and it's about time someone says something, it is the best way of being a good group member, even if it involves some pain.
这就是使团队更强大的原因，即使你没有得到赞誉。我想要强调的是，如果你持不同意见，可能不会得到赞誉，但在意识到你在这个地球上、在这个工作场所投入了有限的精力和时间，提供了独特且有价值的东西时，会有一种赋权、代理和意义的感觉。即使只是认识到正在展示的思想和人们做事的方式是低效或无效的，并且是时候有人说些什么了，这是成为一个好团队成员的最佳方式，即使可能会带来一些痛苦。
So if you don't get credit, you might not be successful and you might be punished, you should still do it. And there's some boundary conditions, right? So if it ends up being, you're living paycheck to paycheck.
如果你没有得到信用，你可能会不成功，甚至会被惩罚，但你仍然应该去做。当然，还有一些边界条件，比如你现在只是靠着每个月的工资过日子。
And if it ends up being that there's no plan B in terms of if there's no other job that you could have and that you're on the fringes, a marginalized member of society, you don't have the same opportunities. And that's the case, what I would argue is it's like the question you raised before about is it important to get allies? Try to find someone who has good social stature in the group who is willing to amplify your voice.
而且，如果最终发现没有备选方案，也就是说，如果没有其他工作可提供，你将处于边缘化地位，成为社会中的弱势群体，你就没有同样的机会。在这种情况下，我认为重要的是像你之前提出的问题一样，要找到一个具有良好社会地位的人来帮助你发声。试着找到一个愿意为你发声的人，让他成为你的盟友，这样有助于提高你的声音。
Because you know that if it comes from them, it's more likely to get a hearing. It's more likely to be considered. And they're more likely to really spend time working with the idea and make it clear that they are the co creator of whatever idea or contribution this is.
因为你知道，如果这个想法是从他们那里提出的，那么更有可能得到听取。这个想法也更有可能被考虑。他们更有可能花时间与这个想法一起工作，并且让人们清楚地知道他们是这个想法或贡献的共同创造者。
What's your advice for the people who are seen as potsters? You know, they're always provoking. They're always challenging. You know, is it that they need to better pick their battles? They need to use better tactics? Yeah.
你认为针对那些常常被视为麻烦制造者的人有什么建议呢？你知道的，他们总是在挑衅，总是在挑战。他们是否需要更明智地选择战斗呢？他们需要使用更好的策略吗？是的。
So we have people that identify as being a nonconformist, a maverick, a rebel. And so one of the strategies is to really discern what is the subjective evidence to support my plan or idea and what is the objective evidence? Thinking in terms of evidence is a good way to get better at being a nonconformist.
所以我们有些人自认为是不墨守成规、特立独行、叛逆的人。因此，其中一种策略就是真正分辨出哪些是主观证据支持我的计划或想法，哪些是客观证据？考虑证据是成为不墨守成规的好方法。
And so if it's always your opinion and it's always your preference to offer an idea that is counter intuitive to what the group is saying, you're not going to be as persuasive as saying. If you look at the numbers, enrollment at this school has declined precipitously over the past five years.. Now we have tried x, y, and z strategies. What if we consider an experiment of another approach that myself and this other person has been thinking about.
所以如果你一直认为并一直倾向于提出与团队说的相反的想法，你将不如这样说有说服力：看看数字，这个学校的注册人数在过去五年里急剧下降了。现在我们已经尝试过x、y和z的策略。如果我们考虑一项我和这个人一直在想的新方法的实验呢？
In this case, you're offering an invitation, you're providing objective evidence of how there has been failing. So over the past few years, even if people haven't been acknowledging it sufficiently. And you're also acknowledging is that you're not the only person involved with this. So this can't be just an attack on you as the individual that you have a small or large coalition that's involved behind this cause and you just happen to be the representative person who's going to speak on their behalf.
在这种情况下，你正在提供一个邀请，提供客观证据说明已经出现了失败。所以在过去几年里，即使人们没有充分认识到这一点，你也承认这不仅是你个人的攻击。你有一个小或大的联盟参与这个事业，你只是代表人，将代表他们发言。
Those are all strategies. So we've talked about the individual contributor who is either up for rebelling and needs to sort of rein themselves in and we've talked about the person who might be reluctant to and should have a little bit more courage. If I'm a manager or a team leader, what do I risk and what do I gain by trying to foster more dissent and even in subordination. So this is the mantra that I hold we unlock the benefits of diversity by allowing and permitting and embracing dissent.
那些都是策略。所以我们谈论了那些可能会反叛但需要自我约束的个人贡献者，也谈论了那些可能有些勇气不足的人。如果我是经理或团队领导，试图培养更多的不同意和甚至违抗行为会有什么风险和收益呢？这是我的座右铭：我们通过允许、容许和拥抱不同意见来释放多样性的好处。
So there's a lot of conversation about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. We are adequate at bringing diverse talent into the room. We are horrible at an organizational level across the board, not just the United States, but elsewhere in terms of ensuring that they get a voice and that they do speak that they are heard sufficiently compared to people who are part of the majority.
所以，有很多关于多样性、公平、包容、归属感的讨论。我们擅长将多元化的人才带入房间，但在组织层面上，无论是在美国还是其他地方，我们都很糟糕，不能确保他们能够有发言权并且他们的声音得到足够的重视，与那些属于大多数的人相比。
If you are looking for better decision making, if you are looking for creative ideas, we know that the greatest predictor of creative ideas is the number of ideas generated in the first place and the quickest way to get a larger pool of ideas is having a wider variety of voices and perspectives that happen. Even if they are wrong and one of the cool things as a leader to know is that even when those people are wrong, they open the portals to were allowed to ask questions were allowed to consider weird things and were allowed to acknowledge is that the approaches we've used in the past might have been sufficient or adequate, but let's go for more utopian ideals.
如果你正在寻找更好的决策，如果你正在寻找创意的点子，我们知道最大的创意预测因素是创意点子的数量，而获得更多点子的最快途径是有更广泛的声音和观点发生。即使他们是错的，作为一名领导者要知道的酷事之一就是即使那些人错了，他们也开启了探讨问题的大门，也能考虑奇异的事物，并承认我们过去采用的方法可能足够或适当，但我们应该追求更乌托邦的理想。
And so if you're looking for truly renovating and improving the nature of a group, it's worthwhile to explicitly say before we have this meeting, I want you to know that I appreciate and want to bring in voices that aren't heard often voices that are on the fringe. I want to allow them as opposed to the same people taking most of the air time and eating up most of the clock or having conversations, having that as the value system ahead of time that we're choosing critical thinking and autonomy is more important values and cohesion might not lead to a positive social encounter or a really enjoyable meeting but better ideas and better decisions.
如果你想真正改善一个团队的性质，那么明确地说，在我们开会之前，我想让你知道，我很欣赏并且希望引入不常被听到的声音，这些声音来自边缘。我想让他们参与，而不是同样的人占用大部分时间和话语权。我们要选择批判性思维和自主性为重要价值观，而不是团结一致可能会带来良好的社交经历或者令人愉悦的会议，但更好的想法和更好的决策。
But you're also as a boss saying I want you to challenge me, I want you to tell me I'm wrong. So if you encourage a lot of that and people do disagree and make different arguments and then you choose one direction over the other, how do you then almost quash the sense so that everyone's moving in the same direction.
但是作为老板，你也说过我想让你挑战我，我想让你告诉我我错了。所以，如果你鼓励大家这样做，而人们确实有不同的意见和不同的争论，然后你选择了一个方向而不是另一个方向，那么你如何几乎镇压这种感觉，以让每个人都朝着同一个方向前进呢？
So the key is to think of us in stages, so you want to have a generative phase where you're collecting more ideas from more people and getting more perspectives in the room. And then you have the selection stage where you're deciding which ideas we put more effort and energy behind to start testing and working with. And when the leader decides not to choose an idea, there's been so much conversation at this point that you were to provide a narrative of why one idea was chosen over another one.
所以关键是要把我们分成几个阶段来考虑，你需要有一个产生阶段，在这个阶段你要收集更多人的想法，让更多的观点进入房间。然后你有选择阶段，在这个阶段你要决定哪些想法我们要花更多的精力和能量开始测试和工作。当领导决定不选择一个想法时，此时已经有很多的讨论了，你需要提供一个为什么选择一个想法而不是另一个想法的叙述。
So you're validating the development of ideas and you're validating the selection for ideas so that it's not just about what's going to be decided at this moment. This is a process that we're going to continue further. I want you to do the same thing again and bring those ideas into the pool for the second, third, fourth and for the remainder of our lives as a group.
那么，您正在验证想法的发展，验证想法的选择，以便不仅仅只是在这个时刻做决定。这是一个我们将继续进行的过程。我希望您再次做同样的事情，将这些想法带入池中，供我们作为一个团队在今后的第二、第三、第四和余下的时间里使用。
I think the important part is to clarify what are the core values of the organization and what are going to be the rules of engagement of having discourse and productive disagreements in a group. Have you seen people and teams learn to do this even in corporate cultures that really emphasize consensus and even kindness as so many of them now do HBR included.
我认为重要的是澄清组织的核心价值观是什么，以及在小组中进行讨论和建设性争论的规则是什么。您是否见过人们和团队在坚持共识甚至善意的公司文化中学会这样做，就像许多公司（包括HBR）所做的那样？
Yeah, I mean, if you want, I'll give you a very provocative example of something I was a part of. So for anyone that's not a football fan, which you don't need to be American football, the Green Bay Packers local citizens are allowed to be shareholders in the organization. And so they had a shareholder meeting and during this meeting, there was a guy who stood up and said they were against the idea of the Green Bay Packers supporting LGBTQ communities.. They didn't like the gay pride flag being anywhere near any apparel or any setting that involved the Green Bay Packers and said this is against my value system.
嗯，我的意思是，如果你想的话，我可以给你一个非常具有挑战性的例子，那就是我参与过的某件事情。对于不是足球迷的任何人，包括非美式足球迷，格林贝 Packers 当地居民被允许成为该组织的股东。在股东大会上，有一个人站起来说，他们反对格林贝 Packers 支持 LGBTQ 社群的想法。他们不喜欢同性恋骄傲旗帜出现在任何与格林贝 Packers 相关的服装或场景中，并说这违反了我的价值观。
Now here's the thing. This comment, of course, weeks of homophobia. It's sort of not the thing you typically hear in 2023 in a conversation. And what I would argue is this kind of dissent while very uncomfortable to hear, would you prefer biases and prejudices to be revealed publicly or would you want those votes that those people have as stakeholders and shareholders to be done without any part of the discussion. Because while you might disagree with everything this person says, which idea it does introduce and liberate people to have a different related conversation, which is what things outside of football should this team and organization be focusing on because there are so many issues that are problematic in society. And the question is, what is going to be our decision making process for which causes we're going to focus on and which ones we're not going to focus on.
现在问题是，这个评论显然表现出了几周的恐同情绪。这在2023年的对话中并不是通常会听到的事情。我所要争辩的是，虽然这种异议听上去非常不舒服，但是你更愿意偏见和成见公开展示出来，还是你希望那些持股人和利益相关者的投票不包含任何讨论呢？因为虽然你可能与这个人的所有观点不同意，但是他/她所提出的观点确实也能够启发人们进行不同的相关对话，而这是关于足球队和组织应该关注哪些足球以外的问题的。这是因为社会中存在着很多不良问题。问题是，我们要如何做出决策，决定我们要关注哪些事业，哪些我们不会关注。
And in this way, you can have a much richer, more important conversation of what should a football team be focusing on and how do we make those decisions. And they ended up having a pretty big argument about gay rights, homophobia, marginalized communities, and it ended up leading to a really nice discussion of here is going to be a decision making set of guidelines and it developed a systematic approach. And before that, it was whoever had allowed his voice one.
通过这种方式，你可以就足球队应该关注哪些问题以及我们如何做出这些决策展开更丰富、更重要的对话。他们最终围绕同性恋权利、恐同、边缘化社群展开了一场激烈的争论，最终导致了一次非常好的讨论会，明确了一套决策指南并发展了一种系统的方法。在那之前，谁发表意见就听谁的。
Are there generational differences in either a willingness to be insubordinate or to tolerate insubordination. I think if you look at the value priorities and the preferences in the workplace, you see different problem areas in different generations. So for the younger generation, you see a greater preference for work family integration, a greater emphasis on I want my work to be meaningful as opposed to being recognized and opposed to just acquiring achievements and accomplishments compared to older generations. And for these individuals, they're not using a lot of these strategies that I've been talking about.
他们这些人在工作中是否有违抗意愿或者容忍违抗的不同观念呢？我认为，如果你看看不同年代的价值优先级和职场偏好，就会发现不同年代有不同的问题区域。所以，对于年轻一代，他们更倾向于将工作和家庭融合起来，更强调我想让我的工作有意义，而不是被认可或获得成就，与老一代相比，他们很少使用我所讲过的这些策略。
The way that you convey a message can push people to being interested, curious, and open up an opportunity for those ideas to be considered or those defenses go up. And I think the younger generation has not spent enough time on what is the best way to communicate ideas effectively. They're going straight for the jugular of your wrong, I have a better way. And while that might be true, the goal is not to be right. The goal is to improve the intelligence and the wisdom of the group and the older generations in the workplace, they've made their careers focusing on status and power.
你传递信息的方式可能引起人们的兴趣、好奇心，并为那些想法被考虑或者防御被打开提供机会。我认为年轻一代没有花足够的时间去思考如何有效地传达思想。他们直接进入你的错误，我有更好的方法的话题，尽管那可能是真的，但是目标不是为了证明正确。目标是提高团队和老一代人在职场中的智慧和智力，他们的职业生涯都是聚焦于地位和权力。
And in some ways, the way you consolidate status and power is keep the status quo going. And so there's really a denigration of the values of younger generations. The problem is that you have not allowed a sufficient opening for someone who lacks official power and status to be given a forum. So final question, can people be successful if they don't want to push the envelope in this way? Or do you think that everyone needs to start figuring out areas where dissent is necessary?
在某些方面，你巩固地位和权力的方式是保持现状不变。所以真正的问题是，你有没有给缺乏官方权力和地位的人留足够的空间来发表意见。年轻一代的价值被轻视了。最后一个问题，如果人们不想这样挑战现状，他们还能成功吗？或者你是否认为每个人都需要开始找出需要持不同意见的领域？
Yeah, I'm glad you said this because if in a world where everyone is dissenting, nothing actually gets accomplished, it's really important to think of yourself as in two roles. One is, are you going to be a receptive, open-minded audience member when people share ideas? And that doesn't mean agreeing with someone or going along with them. It means that you're willing to give a reception to an idea. And there's the idea generator where thinking about new ways of doing things, thinking of better ways of doing things, even if it's just removing inefficiencies or removing unnecessary barriers.
嗯，我很高兴你说出来，因为在一个人人都有异议的世界中，实际上什么也完成不了，很重要的是要把自己看作是两个角色。一方面，你会成为一个接受性强、心态开放的听众，当人们分享他们的想法时。这并不是说要同意某个人或跟随他们的意见。这意味着你愿意接受一个想法。另一方面，你可以成为想法的发起人，思考做事情的新方式，思考更好的做事方式，即使只是消除低效率或不必要的障碍。
It's the combination of what works well, what doesn't work well, and what structures can we build into our mood of thinking such that the ideas that work well can develop, be experimented on, and be tweaked as society changes, as culture changes, and as the organization changes. Terrific. Well, I will say that I am not one who really shies away from dissent, but I do think I could probably do it more effectively, so I personally will take your advice to heart, and I hope that others do too. Todd, thanks so much for being on the show.
这句话的意思是，我们要结合有效的方法，不适合的方法和何种结构，使我们的思维模式能够发展适合的想法，并随着社会、文化和组织的变化进行试验和调整。非常好。好的，我要说我并不是一个退缩的人，但我想我可能可以更有效地表达异议，所以我会非常认真地听取你的建议，希望别人也能这样做。托德，非常感谢你来到这个节目。
Yes, so fun to be here. That's Todd Cajdan. He's a psychology professor and director of the Wellbeing Lab at George Mason University. He's the author of the book, The Art of Ince of Ordination, How to Descent and Defy Effectively.
是的，来这里真有趣。那是Todd Cajdan。他是乔治梅森大学的心理学教授，也是幸福实验室的主任。他是《控制心理的艺术：如何有效地设定和挑战目标》一书的作者。
And we have more episodes and more podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization, and your career. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts or search hbr in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
我们还有更多的剧集和播客，可以帮助您管理团队、组织和职业。您可以在hbr.org/podcasts上找到它们，也可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或您喜欢的其他播客平台上搜索“hbr”来收听。
This episode was produced by Mary Doo. We get technical help from Rob Eckhart, our audio product manager is Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates is our audio production assistant.
这一集是由玛丽·杜制作的。我们得到了Rob Eckhart的技术帮助，我们的音频产品经理是Ian Fox，而Hannah Bates则是我们的音频制作助手。
Thanks for listening to the HBO Idea Cast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Allison Beard.
感谢您收听HBOIdeaCast。我们下周二将回归新一期的节目。我是艾莉森·贝尔。
Hi, it's Allison. Before you go, I have a question. What do you love about hbr?
嗨，我是艾莉森。在你走之前，我有一个问题。您喜欢HBR的哪些方面呢？
I worked at newspapers before I came to HBR, and the thing that is impressed me most is the amount of attention and care that goes into the world. And the thing that goes into the world is that we have multiple editors working on each piece. They put their all into translating these ideas from academia or companies in practice into advice that will really change people's lives in the workplace.
我来到《哈佛商业评论》之前曾在报社工作，最令我印象深刻的是我们所投入的关注和关怀。我们在撰写文章时，都会有好几位编辑共同合作，他们竭尽所能将学术理论或公司经验，转换成确实能够改变人们工作生活的实用建议。这就是我们所追求的目标：将最好的想法带给最需要的人。
If you love HBR's work, the best thing you can do to support us is to become a subscriber. You can do that at hbr.org slash subscribe Idea Cast, all one word no spaces. That's hbr.org slash subscribe Idea Cast. Thanks.
如果你喜欢HBR的工作，要支持我们最好的方式就是成为订阅者。你可以在hbr.org/subscribe-ideacast这个链接上完成。记住，链接中没有空格，都是一个单词。非常感谢！