From Iran to Uber CEO | Nikhil Kamath x Dara Khosrowshahi | People by WTF | Ep. 14

发布时间 2025-08-24 06:00:44 来源

以下是内容的中文翻译：优步（Uber）首席执行官达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）进行了一次广泛的对话，涵盖了他的个人经历、对印度市场的洞察，以及出行、配送和技术的未来趋势。科斯罗萨西首先分享了他的背景，他出生在伊朗沙阿进行现代化改革的时期。他反思了导致伊斯兰革命的因素，认为沙阿过于注重军事力量，而忽视了主要城市以外人民的需求，从而导致了一种倾向于宗教方式的文化运动。尽管如此，他表达了对伊朗过去美好前景的怀念，特别是其对教育和女性机会的重视。他谈到了他个人的精神信仰以及他对人性的善良的信念。过渡到他的职业生涯，科斯罗萨西讨论了他在Allen & Company的经历，以及他对巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）的钦佩，强调迪勒坚持直接接触数据，以避免组织内部的信息过滤。他描述了他在创建Expedia中的作用，强调了针对那些准备迁移到线上的线下企业的战略，特别是在旅游、个人服务和票务方面。他表达了他对人性的信仰而非宗教信仰。他分享了他的信念，即像人工智能这样的技术应该被设计用来支持人类最擅长的事情。谈到印度市场，科斯罗萨西承认Ola过去曾是竞争对手，但认为Rapido是目前的主要挑战，并赞扬了他们的订阅模式，该模式允许司机赚取更多收入。他讨论了优步在出行方面第三大市场的地位，以及该市场提供的人才储备。然而，他为优步退出印度外卖市场、将Uber Eats出售给Zomato的决定辩护，强调优步专注于建立核心运营业务，而不是成为一家投资公司。关于旅行的未来趋势，科斯罗萨西预测人工智能代理将促进更便捷的预订和改进的发现，以及增强的在市场体验，例如简化的酒店入住流程。他指出优步在个人体验方面的优势。他倡导不要追求旅行的灵感方面，因为主要公司可能会这样做，而是专注于市场体验。深入探讨优步目前的定位，他将其设想为日常生活的操作系统，在交通、食品和零售方面提供便利。对于司机和快递员，他强调优步作为一种灵活的收入来源的作用。他强调了交付的活力，以及食品以外的业务日益增长的重要性。科斯罗萨西强调了网络效应对出行和配送业务的重要性，这使得新进入者难以竞争。他建议在扩张之前，专注于利基市场和本地流动性，这与优步早期的战略相呼应。关于领导力，他谈到了保持真实和适应性。他分享了一个关于实施新冠病毒裁员的故事，以及在某个时候，领导者必须做出决定并执行决定，而不是通过协作达成共识。关于自动驾驶汽车，科斯罗萨西重申了他对安全至上的信念，并支持使用包括摄像头、雷达和激光雷达在内的多种技术。他承认全面部署需要很长时间，估计在十年内会产生重大影响，但在20年内会产生广泛的自主影响。科斯罗萨西谈到了中国电动汽车制造商带来的挑战，将他们的成功归因于激烈的国内竞争，这种竞争既受到自上而下的政府战略的驱动，也受到自下而上的创新的驱动。最后，他分享了他对品牌和营销的见解，特别是像TikTok和Instagram这样的社交媒体平台对于新兴品牌越来越重要。科斯罗萨西还提到了优步关于互联的应用程序和服务生态系统的计划。他强调了选择能够向他人学习并在世界上有所作为的工作的重要性。

Dara Khosrowshahi, CEO of Uber, engages in a wide-ranging conversation covering his personal journey, insights into the Indian market, and future trends in mobility, delivery, and technology. Khosrowshahi begins by sharing his background, born in Iran during the Shah's modernization efforts. He reflects on the factors leading to the Islamic Revolution, suggesting the Shah focused too heavily on military power and neglected the needs of people outside major cities, leading to a cultural movement towards the religious way. Despite this, he expresses nostalgia for Iran's past promise, particularly its emphasis on education and opportunities for women. He talks about his personal spiritual believes and his belief in the goodness of humanity. Transitioning to his career, Khosrowshahi discusses his time at Allen & Company and his admiration for Barry Diller, highlighting Diller's insistence on direct engagement with data to avoid information filtering within organizations. He describes his role in building Expedia, emphasizing the strategy of targeting offline businesses poised for online migration, particularly in travel, personal services, and ticketing. He expresses his belief in humanity over being religious. He shares his belief that technology, like AI, should be designed to support what human does best. Turning to the Indian market, Khosrowshahi acknowledges Ola as a past competitor but identifies Rapido as the current primary challenge, praising their subscription model that allows drivers to earn more. He discusses Uber's third-largest market in mobility trips and the talent pool it provides. However, he defends Uber's decision to exit the Indian food delivery market by selling Uber Eats to Zomato, emphasizing Uber's focus on building a core operating business rather than being an investment company. On future trends in travel, Khosrowshahi predicts AI agents facilitating easier booking and improved discovery, as well as enhanced in-market experiences, such as streamlined hotel check-ins. He notes the advantages of Uber in personal experience. He advocates not going after the inspiration side of travel, as major companies will likely be doing that, rather, focusing on the in market experience. Delving into Uber's current identity, he envisions it as an operating system for daily life, providing convenience in transportation, food, and retail. For drivers and couriers, he emphasizes Uber's role as a flexible source of earnings. He highlights the dynamism of delivery, and the increasing importance of services beyond food. Khosrowshahi emphasizes the significance of network effects in the mobility and delivery business, making it challenging for new entrants to compete. He suggests focusing on niche markets and local liquidity before expanding, mirroring Uber's early strategy. On leadership, he talks about remaining authentic and adaptable. He shares an anecdote about implementing COVID layoffs and how, at a point, a leader must make a decision and execute the decision, instead of collaborating to reach a consensus. Regarding autonomous vehicles, Khosrowshahi reiterates his belief in safety as paramount and supports the utilization of multiple technologies, including cameras, radar, and LiDAR. He acknowledges the long time horizon for full-scale deployment, estimating significant impact within ten years but wide reaching autonomous impact within a 20 year horizon. Khosrowshahi addresses the challenges posed by Chinese EV manufacturers, attributing their success to intense domestic competition driven by both top-down government strategy and bottoms-up innovation. He concludes by sharing his insights on branding and marketing, particularly the increasing importance of social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram for emerging brands. Khosrowshahi also touches on Uber's plans for a connected ecosystem of apps and services. He highlights the importance of choosing work where a person can learn from others and make a difference in the world.

中英文字稿

Wow that looks very dead. And the background. You got a good day here. It's hot today. It's typical SF weather. Yes, there was super, super cool. I haven't been outside. So I didn't know it was hot today. You live here? No, New York now. I moved to New York recently. Sadly, I like to hear more. New York? Parents are in New York, so I wanted to get older. New York seems like a lot more fun. The city is more fun. Yeah. But SF is beautiful. Where are you based? I live between Bangalore, Mumbai and Goa in India. Have you been recently? I go once a year. I remember I was there earlier this year. Like it? Yeah, it's so like it's just the energy is incredible. And the teams, you know, we got, I think it's Hydro-Rot and Bangalore.

哇，那看起来真的很萧条。还有背景。今天是个好天气，挺热的。这是典型的旧金山天气。是的，那真是超级酷。我一直没出门，所以不知道今天很热。你住在这里吗？不，现在住在纽约。我最近搬到了纽约。很遗憾，我想多听听关于这里的事情。纽约？我父母在纽约，所以我想陪他们老去。纽约看起来更有趣。城市更有趣。是的。但是旧金山也很美。你住在哪儿？我住在印度，往返于班加罗尔、孟买和果阿。你最近去过吗？我每年去一次。今年早些时候还去过。喜欢吗？是的，真是不可思议，充满了活力。而且团队，你知道的，我们好像有海得拉巴和班加罗尔的团队。

And we got teams there and it's just like a group who is super excited. The energy you get out of the teams when you go visit them is pretty awesome. I like a lot. What's happening in India, Dara? I know your main competition is Ola, who's also a really good friend of mine. Yes. You live in the same city. Yes. Well, have we officially started? Yeah. All right, good. Okay. Ola used to be our main competition. And, you know, we were always going head to head with Ola in terms of the category position in the marketplace. They were the local competitor. I think we had the better global tech, etc. But they were all scrappy.

我们在那里有团队，他们就像是一群充满激情的人。每次去拜访他们，都能感受到团队中那种超棒的能量。我很喜欢。印度那边的情况怎么样，Dara？我知道你们的主要竞争对手是Ola，他也是我一个很好的朋友。是的，你们住在同一个城市。对。哦，我们正式开始了吗？是的。好的。以前，Ola是我们的主要竞争对手，我们在市场上的品类位置上总是和Ola正面交锋。他们是本地竞争对手。我觉得我们在全球技术上占有优势等等，但他们非常有拼劲。

I think he got somewhat distracted by other interesting areas for him. So I see now the tougher competition in India's Rapido. You know, they're the upstart. They got into two wheelers and three wheelers really aggressively, super simple model. Just kind of the subscriptions, your commission model. Very scrappy as well. And they have gained a good amount of category position. I think Ola is now kind of a distant third. They're trying to get into four wheelers now. So we, when we talk about India other than the town that we have there and building there and really building on our talent base. But when we talk about the business in India and it's the third largest country in terms of mobility trips. So India is really important to us.

我觉得他可能被其他对他来说有趣的领域分散了注意力。所以我现在看到印度的Rapido竞争更加激烈。你知道，他们是新贵，他们非常积极地进入了两轮和三轮交通市场，采用了非常简单的模式，就是订阅和佣金模式，非常灵活机动。他们在这个领域占据了不错的位置。我认为Ola现在有点被甩到第三位了，他们正在尝试进入四轮车市场。所以当我们谈到印度，不只是我们在那里的团队和建设，还有我们的人才储备。谈到印度的业务，它是全球出行次数第三多的国家，所以印度对我们非常重要。

The competition that we talk about is really Rapido. And what do you think Rapido is getting right that the others are not? I'm not on the ground, but I think Rapido built a really simple model, which is basically the subscription model you pay a certain amount. And for the rest of the day, you operate on what's essentially zero commission. Right. And once you pay the subscription then because Rapido is essentially taking a zero commission. Then the driver pay is higher than a player who, like us, who's taking a commission on every trip. So I think that was a smart way for them to break into the marketplace. Rapido is not making money.

我们谈论的竞争实际上是关于Rapido。你觉得Rapido在做得好的方面有哪些是其他公司没有做到的？虽然我不在一线观察，但我认为Rapido建立了一个非常简单的模式，基本是订阅模式，你支付一定金额，然后当天剩余时间基本是零佣金运营。一旦支付了订阅费用，因为Rapido基本上不收取佣金，所以司机的收入要高于像我们这样每次行程都收取佣金的公司。所以我认为这是他们打入市场的一个聪明方法。不过，Rapido目前并没有盈利。

So the real test of the business isn't how fast you can grow if you're spending. It's actually how fast you can grow while you're profitable. And I think Rapido is a long way away from that. But they've been innovative. They've been scrappy. They move fast. They're building their brand there in the local market. So we've got a lot of respect for them. And we intend to compete really hard with them. Nice. So Darah, this podcast that we do is largely focused around young wannabe entrepreneurs in India. And the spaces that you operate in, beat mobility, delivery, may I also say autonomous vehicles, electric vehicles. These are taking up significant mindshare in the dialogue that's happening back home.

真正考验一家企业的不是在大肆花钱时增长的速度，而是在盈利的情况下能增长得有多快。我认为，Rapido距离实现这一点还有很长的路要走。不过，他们一直以来都很有创新精神，也很拼搏。他们行动迅速，并在当地市场建立起了自己的品牌。因此，我们对他们非常尊重，并打算与他们展开激烈竞争。很好。达拉，我们的播客主要针对印度的年轻创业者们。您所涉足的领域，包括出行、配送、甚至无人驾驶汽车和电动汽车，正在国内的对话中占据重要位置。

So at the end of today, if I can arrive at some takeaways that one could use in India to build around any of these sectors, it's a little incredible. But maybe we start with you, the individual, and you give us a few minutes on where you began and how you arrived to where you are here. Yeah, absolutely. So I was born in Iran. And during when I was born in Iran, the Shah Varan was really trying to modernize Iran very quickly. And I was part of, I was very lucky to be a part of a family that was part of the industrialization of Iran. There's a, our family ran a group, Alboriz Group, and then within it, manufacturing companies like Toly Daru, which were manufacturing, we licensed pharmaceuticals from the West, and then manufactured them in Iran, and then distributed them in Iran and the Middle East.

所以在今天结束时，如果我能得出一些可以在印度用于围绕这些行业构建的经验，这将是相当不可思议的。也许我们可以从你个人开始，你花几分钟告诉我们你是从哪里开始的，又是怎样到达现在的。好的，当然可以。我出生在伊朗。当时伊朗国王巴列维正试图迅速现代化，而我很幸运成为一个参与伊朗工业化家庭的一员。我们的家族经营了一个名为Alboriz Group的集团，旗下有像Toly Daru这样的制造公司，这些公司从西方获得药品生产许可证，在伊朗生产并在伊朗和中东地区分销。

There was a big business. We were very well known family. My father was in charge of building out all factories. And our family was raised with a assumption that we would then step into the family business and keep growing. And it was a really exciting time.

有一个大型企业，我们家是非常有名的。我父亲负责建设所有工厂。我们家一直有个想法，就是我们会接手家里的生意并继续发展壮大。这段时间真的很令人兴奋。

And I would just ask a question. Whenever I read about Iran's history, when I talked to the young folk, the Shah's time seems to have been this great time. What happened? Why did it change? Why did the regime change? Well, I think it was a great time for people who were lucky enough to participate in the modernization of Iran, the fascists. Was it like Kroni capitalist? I don't know enough. But I think that, to some extent, in hindsight, in the high-size 2020, I think the Shah tried to modernize too quickly.

我有个问题。当我阅读伊朗历史或者与年轻人交谈时，总是听到说巴列维国王统治的时代是一个伟大的时代。到底发生了什么？为什么会有这样的变化？为什么政权会更迭？我认为，对于那些幸运地参与伊朗现代化进程的人来说，那确实是一个不错的时代。然而，对于其他人来说，也许并非如此。是否存在像裙带资本主义这样的情况，我不太清楚。不过，现在回过头来看，我觉得巴列维国王可能试图实现过于快速的现代化。

I think that he was too focused on building up military power. So in terms of the growth of GDP in Iran, a significant amount went to establishing Iran as the power center of the Middle East, or the Military Power Center of the Middle East versus the Industrial Power Center of the Middle East. And I think he didn't bring along the outskirts, the people who lived in smaller cities, et cetera. And part of his modernization left Islam behind.

我认为他过于专注于增强军事力量。因此，在伊朗GDP的增长方面，大量资源被用于将伊朗确立为中东的军事权力中心，而不是中东的工业权力中心。此外，我认为他没有重视边远地区，尤其是生活在小城市的人们。他的现代化进程在某种程度上忽视了伊斯兰文化。

And Iran, as a culture, is much more ancient than Islam. But Islam is part of the society as well. And so his moving too fast, his focusing on military power versus his people, his focus on the big cities versus everybody, you know, rhymes with maybe things that have happened here, created a movement and an opportunity for the Islamic regime to come in. So people tend to romanticize the past.

伊朗作为一种文化，比伊斯兰教要古老得多。但伊斯兰教也是该社会的一部分。因此，他进展过快、专注于军事力量而忽视人民、关注大城市而忽略其他地方的做法，与以前这里发生过的一些事情有些相似，并为伊斯兰政权的进入创造了一个契机。因此，人们往往会对过去产生浪漫化的联想。

Now, do I think that the time under the Shah was a better time? Absolutely. I think what's happened with the Islamic regime, you know, there's a regime that isn't, I think, doing that Iranian people write and cares about things other than the benefit of the people there. And I think that's disappointing. And it's been there for too long, in my opinion.

如今，我认为在国王（指巴列维国王，即伊朗国王）统治时期是不是更好一些呢？是的，绝对如此。我认为目前的伊斯兰政权，并没有真正为伊朗人民着想，他们关心的并不是人民的利益。我觉得这很令人失望，并且在我看来，这种情况已经持续太久了。

But, you know, every time has as good and it's bad. And unfortunately, the Shah wasn't able to follow through on a movement that had a lot of promise. And I think the biggest promise in my estimation was the value of education. And women went to college, et cetera. the number of women graduates in Iran, as she is higher than the number of men graduates.

但是，你知道，每个时代都有它的好与坏。不幸的是，国王（沙阿）未能实现一个充满希望的运动。我认为最大的希望在于教育的重要性。当时，女性可以上大学等。在伊朗，女性毕业生的数量高于男性毕业生的数量。

So there are a lot of seeds planted there that had a lot of promise. And hopefully, hopefully, Iran can get out of, I think, now it's obsession with Islam and think more about its people and building out for the good of the people in concert with Islam, but not subjugated to Islam.

那里种下了许多充满希望的种子。希望伊朗能够走出对于伊斯兰的执迷，更多地关注人民，并在与伊斯兰协调的基础上，为人民的福祉而发展，而不是被伊斯兰所束缚。

Does it get in the way in any way today, the fact that your origins are there while the countries where you live today and that might be in conflict? Not a conflict in my life. I know there's a sadness in leaving your home country. I mean, my country is now the United States and we got to rebuild in the US and I'm so thankful for it.

“今天这种情况有没有对你产生任何影响？你来自的地方和你现在居住的国家可能存在冲突？” 对我个人而言，这并没有造成困扰。我知道离开祖国会有一种悲伤的感觉。我现在的国家是美国，我们要在美国重新开始，对此我感到非常感激。

But, what I'd love to go back, I would. But to some extent, the culture of Iran matches the Western culture. It's a group of people who want to build. It's a group of people who value education, who are ambitious. So I don't find it a conflict with who I am now, but there's a part of me that I feel is incomplete and will be incomplete if I never am able to go back to Iran.

如果有机会回去，我非常愿意。但是在某种程度上，伊朗的文化和西方文化是有相似之处的。伊朗人是一个想要建设的群体，是一个重视教育、充满野心的群体。所以，我觉得伊朗文化与我现在的自我并不冲突。但是，如果我永远无法回到伊朗，内心总会有一种不完整的感觉。

I have Iranian friends who live in India now. And most of them mimic your emotion in thinking that here's a land that had so much opportunity. Incredible. But just religion seems to have caused so much harm than good in that particular geography. And it doesn't have to. There are many things about religion that are beautiful. But again, I think what's happened in Iran is it's really unfair to the people there.

我有一些伊朗朋友现在住在印度。他们中的大多数人跟你一样，认为这个地方曾经充满了机遇，实在令人难以置信。但在那个地区，宗教似乎带来的伤害多于好处，而其实本不必如此。宗教中有许多美好的东西。然而，我认为伊朗发生的事情对当地人来说真的很不公平。

Are you religious, Darat? I'm not religious. I say I'm spiritual. Right. But I'm not religious. I believe in the power of humanity. And I think religion is plays to what makes us human and the relationships between us and the deep, deep good in all of us. And I think it's beautiful. And I think religion is the stories. The beliefs are beautiful.

你信教吗，Darat？我不信教。我会说我是一个有灵性的人。对的，但我不是宗教人士。我相信人类的力量。我认为宗教关注的是让我们成为人类的特质，以及人与人之间的关系，还有我们内心深处的善良。我觉得这很美。我认为宗教中的故事和信仰都是美丽的。

And so I describe myself more as spiritual, but for me, my belief is in the good of humanity. At the very core, do you think that is what religion is? Great stories. I think, yeah. If you kind of go through the intellectual exercise I heard which is, if all of our memory was wiped out, and you rebuilt religions on earth, there's a high probability that the nature of those religions and the stories would be different.

因此，我更愿意将自己描述为一个灵性的人，但对我来说，我的信仰在于人性的善良。核心而言，你认为宗教是关于这些的吗？伟大的故事。我觉得是的。如果你进行一种思维实验，就是如果我们所有的记忆都被抹去，然后重新在地球上构建宗教，那么那些宗教的性质和故事很可能会有所不同。

If you rebuild science, the science will come out the same. And so I do think that their deep truths, their deep human truths to religion. And those deep truths are unchanging. But each religion are definitely different ways of getting to those similar deep truths.

如果你重建科学，科学的结果还是一样的。因此，我确实认为宗教中有深刻的人类真理。这些深刻的真理是不会改变的。但是，每种宗教通向这些相似深刻真理的途径确实不同。

What is spirituality to you? A lot of people ask me if I'm spiritual. I'm like, what is it? I'm trying to figure out what the word even means to begin with. I think it's a great question. For me, what spirituality means to me is a belief in the goodness of humanity, a belief in you know, you and I have so little in common in terms of where we came from. And maybe our stories, but so much in common we've sat together in five minutes and there's a connection there. And I don't think that connection is because of a logical construct that I'm here to speak to you on a podcast that are, you know, like I'm not faking it. Right, there's a connection that we're establishing now, having this discussion. That to me is a spiritual connection. It's not a logical construct. You know, you're not being nice to me because you think you have to be in vice versa. And instantly you have that rapport.

对你而言，什么是灵性？很多人问我是否有灵性。我心想，这到底是什么意思呢？我一直在试图搞清楚这个词的含义。我认为这是个很好的问题。对我来说，灵性意味着对人性的善良的信仰，意味着即便我们在出身和故事上有很大差异，但我们之间仍然存在许多共同点。即使只在五分钟内共处，我们之间就有了一种联系。我认为这种联系并不是因为我来上这场播客而进行的逻辑上的构建。这不是假装出来的，而是通过这次讨论建立的联系。对我来说，这就是一种灵性的联系，它不是逻辑上的构建。你对我友好，不是因为你觉得不得不这样，我对你也是一样。因此，我们在瞬间能产生这种融洽感。

And sometimes by the way, you don't with some certain people. That comes from a spiritual side. And that spirit can be captured for good. And it can be captured for evil as well. So in a way, we're all connected somehow like trees and roots. You know, literally, I don't know. But yes, I do think there's a deeper connection within humanity. There's some people who attribute that to perfectly logical causes. The love that you have, do you have family, do you have brothers and sisters? Yeah. You know, there are some people who would say that your, what do you have? Brother. Yeah, your love for your brother is based on the genetic similarity of YouTube.

有时候，你和某些人之间可能没有什么联系。这可能是出于一种精神层面的原因。这种精神可以被用于好的一面，也可以被用于坏的一面。所以在某种意义上来说，我们就像树和根那样，都是相连的。我并不完全了解，但我确实认为在人类之间存在着更深的联系。有些人将其归因于完全合乎逻辑的原因。比如你对家人的爱，有兄弟姐妹吗？有些人可能会说，你对兄弟的爱是基于你们在基因上的相似性。

So it's actually while you may ascertain that to a deep love that you have for family, it's actually purely logically based on your existence as a bunch of genes who wants to continue those genes. And your brother has a genetic makeup that's quite similar to you. So what you view as familial love is actually adaptation that is feeding you that familial love. There is a logical explanation to all of this. I kind of choose to acknowledge that. But I view that the outcome of that is spirituality. It may be based on genetic logic between all of us. But I think that the outcome is beautiful. And I'd rather keep it at the spiritual level versus say, oh, it's all, it's just us being gene machines that are trying to continue our genes indefinitely.

实际上，当你觉得自己对家庭有深深的爱时，这种情感实际上从逻辑上来说是基于你的存在——作为一组基因——希望延续这些基因。而你的兄弟拥有与你相似的基因构成。所以你所认为的亲情实际上是一种适应机制，它让你感受到这种亲情。这一切都有其逻辑解释。我选择承认这一点，但我认为其结果是精神层面的东西。虽然这可能是基于我们之间的基因逻辑，但我认为其结果是美好的。我宁愿将其视为一种精神层面的东西，而不是简单地说，我们都是努力无限期延续自己基因的“基因机器”。

Would make a case for liking people who are genetically similar to us as well? Absolutely. Because we have similar genes to create. Yeah, absolutely. I feel a connection to Iran at deep connection to Iran. Why? I came here when I was nine years old. We're now back at history, right? I have to say one thing. I was in your old office yesterday. Yes. And Alan and Co. Is something somebody for something? And Bob, Kerry? Yes, I met him. I don't know Bob very well, but I met him. Yeah, so they were telling me you should ask Dada. And I said, I'm meeting you the next day. And they were telling me you should ask Dada when he used to be here. He used to say he doesn't believe in globalization.

这段文字可以翻译并简化为：是否可以为喜欢那些与我们基因相似的人找到理由呢？当然可以。因为我们有相似的基因。是的，我对伊朗有一种深深的联系。为什么呢？我九岁时来到这里。现在我们回到历史中，对吧？我得说一件事。我昨天去了你以前的办公室。是的，Alan和Co.是某个团队，而Bob Kerry？是的，我见过他。我对Bob不太熟悉，但见过他。他们告诉我，你应该问问Dada。他们说，Dada以前在这里时常说他不相信全球化。

Is that because genes away from one geography become too far? Boy, that was Bob's takeaway from that. I don't even remember that. I don't know if I was trying to like upset him or something like that. I don't believe in globalization. I don't know what that means or I don't know what I meant at the time. But I do think that, again, you could, that connection I have with Iran, I believe, as a spiritual connection, I don't know where it comes from. Because I'm so American, right? I've lived the vast majority of my life as an American. I've been incredibly lucky to be here. But there's a part of me that feels empty if I don't go back. And that's probably a spiritual connection.

这是因为来自不同地理区域的基因相距太远了吗？天啊，那是鲍勃对此的看法。我甚至不记得这一点。我不知道我当时是否想惹他生气之类的。我不相信全球化。我不知道这是什么意思，或者我当时的想法是什么。不过，我确实觉得，我和伊朗的联系可能是一种精神上的联系，我不知道它从何而来。因为我太美国化了，对吧？我生命的大部分时间都是作为一个美国人度过的。我很幸运能生活在这里。但如果我不回去，总有一部分我会感到空虚。这可能就是一种精神联系。

Again, you could put a genetic underlying cost to it, but I like the story of that being spiritual anymore. I get that. I think I feel that in India, strongly. So, year nine, you move here? Yeah, so we had the Iran revolution happen. The Islamic revolution happen. Little story, which is we were intending to stay at one point. But then I think the house across the street from us was related to the Shawsome House. So some revolutionary guards jumped, wanted to go attack that house, and they jumped over, went through our garden. I think their guns went off. So shots went off.

当然，你可以赋予这件事情一个基因上的代价，但我更倾向于将其视为一种精神上的解释。我理解这种感受，尤其是在印度，我感受得非常强烈。那么，你是在九岁的时候搬到这里吗？是的，当时爆发了伊朗革命，即伊斯兰革命。一个小插曲是，我们本来打算留下来的。但是，我想我们对面的房子与沙阿家族有联系。于是，一些革命卫队跳过来，穿过我们的花园，想要去攻击那栋房子。我记得他们的枪走火了，然后开了枪。

So bullets came through our house. At that point, my mom said, we're getting out of here. Wow. So we went to the South France. We were with the family. We had a place there. And really, the intent was to go to the South of France until things calmed down. Well, things never calmed down. We happened to have an uncle who's still alive now. He's 101 years old. Uncle Nasrullah, who lived in the US. He married a faith, an American woman, wonderful, wonderful auntie. And so we came to the US to stay with them. And then we knew we could never go back. And we started a life here. So I've been in the US ever since I was nine years old.

于是，子弹打进了我们的房子。那时，我妈妈说，我们要离开这里。哇哦。于是我们去了法国南部。我们和家人在一起，我们在那里有个住所。我们本来的计划是去南法待到局势平静下来。但局势从未平静下来。我们碰巧有个叔叔，现在还健在，已经101岁，他叫纳斯鲁拉，住在美国。他娶了一位信仰坚定的美国女性，是我们非常棒的姑姑。于是我们来到美国和他们住在一起。后来我们知道再也无法回去，于是在这里开始了新的生活。从我九岁起，我就一直住在美国。

Iranians are quite wealthy. Whenever I go to, I realize this when I go to Beverly Hills. And everybody's Iranian. Why is that? Well, I think that Iranians who were wealthy got to go, got to leave. And you know, Iranians there were pretty entrepreneurial culture. And a lot of Iranians invested in real estate. You know, we came here in the late 1970s, 80s. And it was a good time to come to America and establish yourself and get into business in the US. And my family did the same. My family did the same. But it was really for the kids. I was only nine years old.

伊朗人相当富有。每次我去贝弗利山庄时，我都能意识到这一点，因为到处都是伊朗人。为什么会这样呢？我认为富裕的伊朗人有机会离开，他们确实离开了。而且你知道，伊朗人有着相当强的创业文化，许多伊朗人在房地产方面进行了投资。我们大约在1970年代末和1980年代初来到这里，那时候正是来到美国并在美国开展业务的大好时机。我的家人也是这样做的，但主要是为了孩子们。当时我只有九岁。

I think children are able to adjust to change much more readily. You know, for us like America was this magic country where I went from like three channels in Iran to 35 channels cable. I couldn't understand the language very well. But we adjusted really well. And we always had our family around us. But it was much harder for my parents. You know, my father, his whole life was business. And he took a shot at some entrepreneurial businesses. They didn't work out very well. And without work, he kind of didn't have a cause in his life.

我认为孩子们更容易适应变化。对我们来说，美国就像一个神奇的国家。在伊朗时，我只有三个电视频道，但到了美国，却有35个有线频道，虽然我一开始听不太懂语言，但我们却很好地适应了。而且我们身边总是有家人在一起。但对我的父母来说就没那么容易。你知道，我的父亲一辈子都在做生意，他尝试了一些创业项目，但效果不太理想。没有工作后，他生活中似乎失去了目标。

He went back to Iran because his father was dying. So I didn't see him, I think, between the ages of 13 and 19. Because they wouldn't let him out of the country for those six years. And my mom, who lived the life of absolute luxury, had to go back to work. She worked as a salesperson at Nordstrom, Selene. And you know, it was a very, very difficult adjustment for them. But for the kids, we always had family. We got to go to private school. And we got to have the kind of education that then afforded us the opportunities that we've taken advantage of since.

他回到伊朗是因为他的父亲病重。所以，在我13岁到19岁之间，我想我是没有见到他的。因为在那六年里他们不允许他离开国家。而我的母亲，她原本生活奢华，却不得不重返职场。她去诺德斯特龙百货的赛琳工作，做售货员。对他们来说，这种转变非常艰难。但对于我们这些孩子来说，我们总有家人在身边，我们还能上私立学校，接受良好的教育，这为我们后来抓住各种机会打下了基础。

So you started school here, where in America? In Westchester County, New York, about an hour of New York. At a wonderful school called Happley School. And then I went to Brown University and studied engineering at Brown University. And then I was going to an engineering management program. And I met a commodity trader, a woman in New York City, who I completely fell in love with. And I had to find a job in New York City. And the only jobs available in New York City were investment banking jobs.

你是在这里开始上学的吗，美国的哪里？在纽约的威彻斯特县，距纽约市大约一个小时车程的地方。在一所名叫哈普利学校的很棒的学校上学。然后我去了布朗大学，在那里学习工程学。之后，我计划参加一个工程管理项目。在此期间，我在纽约市遇到了一位商品交易商，一位让我完全爱上的女性。我必须在纽约市找到一份工作，而那时纽约市唯一可找到的工作是投资银行方面的工作。

And so that's how I got to Allen & Company that you just thought about. And I worked at Allen & Company for, I think it was like eight years or so. And one of my clients there was a gentleman named Barry Diller, who was this legendary figure in media. And then very much within the internet. And he was a client of mine. And I remember, my intention was to stay at Allen & Company forever. It is a great family-run business. Really look out for your clients. It's not the kind of investment bank that's looking for fees. They want to help you build a business.

所以这就是我如何来到你刚才提到的Allen & Company的经历。我在Allen & Company工作了大约八年。其中有一个客户是媒体行业的传奇人物Barry Diller，他在互联网领域也非常有影响力。我本来打算一直待在Allen & Company，因为它是一家很棒的家族企业，真的很为客户着想。这不像那种只关心收费的投资银行，而是真正希望帮助客户建立业务。

So I thought I was going to be there forever. But then I saw Barry, I say, if I ever get a chance to work for that guy, I'll take it in a second. Why was that? I was very interesting, but expedient interest. This was before Expedia. It was all Barry. Every time he came into the whole room would light up. It just that the energy that he carried with him was extraordinary. And I'll tell you a little story of what you met. And it's a lesson that I learned in business.

所以我以为我会永远待在那里。但后来我看到Barry，我想，如果有机会为他工作，我会立刻抓住。为什么呢？我那时非常感兴趣，但也是出于一种权宜的兴趣。这是在Expedia成立之前，一切都关于Barry。每次他走进来，整个房间都会亮起来。他带来的能量真是非同寻常。我给你讲个我们见面的故事，这是我在商界学到的一课。

Was that he was bidding for, he was running a company called QVC, which was home shopping. Bidding for Paramount, which was the company that he used to run. So it was like his coming home. And I was the little crappy analyst who was running his deal model. And at one point, the number started getting really high. I want to meet the person who built this deal model. And usually with these investment banks, you have a managing director and a vice president and associate.

他当时正在参与竞标的是，他正在运营一家公司叫QVC，这是一家家庭购物公司。他在竞标Paramount，这家公司是他曾经管理过的。所以这就像是他重返故地。而我则是那个负责他的交易模型的小分析师。有一阵子，数字开始变得非常高。他表示想见一见构建这个交易模型的人。在这些投资银行里，通常会有一位管理董事、一位副总裁以及一位助理。

And he's like, no, I want to meet the person. I want this person to take me through the model. And so he comes in and I'm like so nervous. I'm about to die. And he forced me to take him through every single line of this model so he could understand what he was doing. And the lesson that I learned from him was that every time, you know, the higher up you get in an organization, and it's something that I really think about now, the more procured your version of what's happening in the real world becomes.

他就说，不，我想见这个人，我希望这个人带我熟悉这个模型。于是他来了，而我非常紧张，感觉要晕过去了。他逼着我带他逐行逐行地过一遍这个模型，以便他能理解自己在做什么。我从他身上学到的一课是，在一个组织中，你职位爬得越高——这也是我现在经常思考的事情——你所接触到的真实世界的版本就可能变得越经过筛选和修饰。

You have a chief of staff who controls your schedule. And so all the information flow to you becomes controlled. And as the information flow comes up to you, it gets edited and edited and edited. And all the edges leave. And you essentially get access to the information that the organization wants you to have. And the biggest mistakes that I see with businesses is not usually errors of judgment, but you just didn't really know what was going on in the organization. And Barry went right to kind of the source. He didn't want the edit. He didn't want the smooth presentation, this and that. And so he wanted to get it to the source. You know, I did okay because then he hired me as a banker. And I just found out with him to everyone now, like what happens to CEOs because of the management teams and so on and so forth.

你有一个幕僚长负责管理你的日程安排，因此所有的信息流都被控制了。当信息传递给你时，会经过一层层的编辑，所有的棱角都会被磨平。最终你得到的信息是组织希望你知道的。而企业常见的问题并不是判断失误，而是你并不了解公司内部的真实情况。Barry则是直奔源头，他不希望经过编辑、不希望那些经过修饰的汇报，所以他想直接获取第一手信息。由于这个原因，他聘用了我作为银行家。和他在一起，我了解到了因为管理团队等原因，CEO们可能会面对的情况。

Normal people is everybody by virtue of using large language models today, getting a version that if they did it manually, they would have they would have discovered that there are other versions possible. Definitely. Is it making us all stupid? I mean, listen, it's not making all of us stupid. But if you are lazy enough to just depend on that version of reality, because it's a very easy version of reality available to you, then you could possibly be stupid. And so that's a sometimes as in organizations, you know, the organization takes over the flow of information up the organization, etc.

普通人通过使用大型语言模型，可以很容易地获得一种现实的版本，如果他们手动去做的话，就会发现其实还有其他可能的版本。这是否让我们变得愚蠢？并不是所有人都会变愚蠢。但如果你懒得去探索其他版本，只是依赖这种轻松获得的现实视角，那你可能确实会变得愚蠢。在一些组织中，信息的传递有时候会被组织自身主导，等等。

And one lesson that I learned from Barry is like the way you fight that is to create these random matches, etc. And so you have to fight the organization's need to package everything for you. Because it's the things that you don't know that ultimately, you know, hits you on the side of the head that make you vulnerable. And so it's a very long-winded story, but eventually Barry lost that deal. He then started with a partnership with John Malone, who's another kind of legend in the entertainment industry, home shopping network, and started rolling up some other assets.

我从Barry那里学到的一个经验是，你要通过制造一些随机组合来应对挑战。你必须对抗组织把所有事情打包好的倾向，因为那些你不知道的事情最终会让你措手不及，让你变得脆弱。虽然这个故事很长，但总之Barry最终失去了那笔交易。他随后与另一位娱乐行业的传奇人物John Malone合作，成立了一个家庭购物网络，并开始收购其他一些资产。

And at that point, he did a big deal with the USA Networks. He didn't have any staff to help him out. And at that point, he hired me to be his deal person, and I followed him. And so then we kind of took the, he was really, Barry was really interested in the intersection of entertainment with interactivity. And this is like during the AOL days, etc. And we actually got lucky because we bought a company called Tickamaster. I don't know if Tickamaster operates in India, but like, you know, they, they would know.

在那时，他与美国网络公司达成了一项重大交易。当时他没有员工来帮助他。在这个时候，他雇用了我来负责他的交易事务，我便跟随他工作。那时，Barry非常关注娱乐与互动之间的结合。这大概是在AOL时代等等，我们实际上比较幸运，因为我们收购了一家叫做Tickamaster的公司。我不确定Tickamaster是否在印度运营，但很多人应该听说过他们。

It doesn't, but I remember it. Yeah, and in the AOL days, the way that Tickamaster would sell tickets was either you would go to like a tower record store and like wait in line for the Madonna concert, or you would call Tickamaster kind of, call, call, call to get these tickets. And they did a deal with American Online. And whoosh, the volumes went online. And so at that point, Byron and I were like, okay, what else looks like tickets? It's a virtual good, advanced ticketing, reserved seats.

它不这样做，但我记得。在 AOL 的时代，Tickemaster 卖票有两种方式：一种是你会去塔楼唱片店排队等买麦当娜演唱会的票，另一种是拨打 Tickemaster 电话，一遍遍地打，想办法买到票。而后，他们和美国在线（AOL）达成了合作协议，票务交易一下子转移到线上。因此，那时候我和 Byron 就想，除了门票，还有什么东西可能会类似？是虚拟商品，提前购票，预留座位。

What else looks or rhymes with transactions happening either over the phone or you know across the desk? And because the transactions are virtual, you don't have shipping costs, etc. We didn't want to compete with Jeff Bezos. Let's go after those companies that are offline because we know all this stuff is going to move online. So that led us to, for example, travel, you know, in the AOL days, you go to the travel agency or you would call a travel agent to book travel, like that's going to go online.

还有哪些事情看起来或听起来像是在电话上或面对面进行的交易？因为交易是虚拟的，所以你不需要承担运输成本等费用。我们不想和杰夫·贝佐斯竞争。我们要去瞄准那些还未上线的公司，因为我们知道这一切最终都会转移到线上。这就引导我们关注到，比如说旅行。在美国在线的时代，你需要去旅行社或者打电话给旅行代理来预订旅行，而这些都会逐渐转到线上。

So we started buying businesses that were either offline, that were moving online or some of the early online travel companies like Expedia. We went into the personal business, mash.com, in the AOL days, you would call and be like, hi, I'm Dara and I'm five, nine. I'm six foot two and this and that, you know, like you leave your profile online and so on. I would pick that profile all this stuff went online. So it was a really wonderful adventure of finding businesses that we thought would take advantage of this movement of offline to online.

因此，我们开始收购那些正在从线下转型到线上的公司，或者一些早期的在线旅行公司，比如Expedia。我们也进入了个人业务领域，比如在AOL时代的mash.com，你可以打电话说：“嗨，我是Dara，我五英尺九，你可以找到六英尺二的人”等等。你会把你的个人信息放到网上，所有这些内容都随着互联网的发展而转移到线上。这是一个非常精彩的旅程，我们在这个过程中寻找那些能够利用从线下到线上转型机会的公司。

Travel was a huge category that we invested in. I went from being Barry's deal person to being his chief financial officer. And then at one point, the travel business, it had this incredible growth, but it hit some turbulence. And at that point, Barry needed a CEO and I was dumb enough to raise my hand. I said, hey, maybe I can run this thing. And that's when I took over what became Expedia. And I ran Expedia for 13 years. Barry was always a chairman. I was a CEO of the company. And it was a great run.

旅行领域是我们投资的重要类别之一。我最初负责Barry的交易事务，后来成为他的首席财务官。有段时间，旅行行业经历了显著增长，但随后遇到了一些困难。在那时，Barry需要一位CEO，我大胆地毛遂自荐，说：“嘿，也许我可以管理这个业务。” 于是我接管了后来成为Expedia的公司，并担任了13年的CEO。在此期间，Barry一直是董事会主席。这段经历绝对是一次精彩的旅程。

We had a great run together. How does travel change next, Dara? I think it's a industry which has stagnated a bit in terms of how one books, at least my experience online of booking a ticket, a hotel, hasn't changed that much in the last few years. Yeah, I don't think that the travel industries have innovated that much. I think you're exactly right. And it frustrates me, you know, which is like what the booking experience looks quite similar. I think one obvious answer is the gentick experience, which is can you actually get AI agents or LRM agents to book the travel for you to go to the various sites and compare, compare prices, et cetera, and book for you.

我们一起度过了美好的时光。Dara，你认为旅行行业接下来会有什么变化？我觉得这个行业在预订方面有些停滞不前，至少从我最近几年的在线订票和订酒店的体验来看，变化不大。是的，我也认为旅行行业在创新方面并没有太大进展，这让我感到困扰，因为预订体验看上去没有什么不同。我觉得一个明显的解决方案是引入智能体验，也就是利用AI代理或LRM代理帮你完成预订，它们可以浏览不同网站、比较价格等，并替你进行预订。

So I think that part of the travel booking experience can be easier having agents work for you. I think that the discovery part of the travel experience can get much, much better. This is, I think, one area where LLM's did a shine because if you thought, and the, again, probably 10 years ago, I want to go someplace over the summer, how you would figure out where to go. It will be you would maybe read a magazine or go online or talk to friends or you heard about something the way to gather information or go to Google, which I think could be quite frustrating, you know, luxury vacation in Europe like the results you get are trash in my opinion.

我认为让代理人为你工作可以让旅行预订过程变得更加简单。我也认为旅行体验中的探索部分可以变得更好。这是我认为大语言模型（LLM）非常擅长的一个领域。因为如果在大约10年前，你想在夏天去某个地方，你可能会通过读杂志、上网、和朋友聊天或者根据听说过的某些事情来收集信息或者通过谷歌搜索。但我认为，这样搜索很容易让人沮丧，比如你搜“欧洲的豪华度假”，得到的结果可能很糟糕，这是我的看法。

With LLM's now, actually, their ability to gather the information and bring you unexpected results, et cetera. I think travel discovery is going to get much, much better and is much better today. Travel booking, I think agents can help you as well. And then I think one area that I think, I think, Uber is really good at that. That I think the experience can improve significantly is your in-market experience. Why is it that when you land and you take the Uber to your hotel, you even need to check in. We should, we have your phone, we know where you are, come into the room, you know, why can't it be, you're in room 3031E, and just go up there, you already checked in and go in.

随着大型语言模型（LLM）的出现，它们现在能够收集信息并提供意想不到的结果。我认为，旅行探索将会变得越来越好，实际上，现在已经有很大提升。在旅行预订方面，我觉得旅行代理也能提供帮助。我还认为，Uber非常擅长改善的一个领域是你的本地旅行体验。为什么当你落地后坐Uber到酒店时，还需要办理入住手续呢？我们已经有你的手机，知道你在哪里，那为什么不直接进入你的房间呢？你可以直接去3031E房间，因为你已经在线完成了入住手续。

Why do I need to sit there and have the perfectly nice person ask me if I had a nice flight? And here's my room, et cetera. I think the in-market experience is something that hasn't been innovated on at all and is something that could improve as well. I'm able to today discover, say I'm coming to San Francisco. And I want to figure out which hotel suits my needs. I can enter my taste each time and the agent will recommend something. But is there one place where I don't have to think and the agent can do everything? I don't think there's one soul for it today.

为什么我必须坐在那里，让一位非常好的人询问我的航班是否愉快呢？然后带我去看我的房间等等。我认为在市场体验方面还没有任何创新，而这是一个可以改进的地方。比如说，我要去旧金山，我可以找到一间适合我需求的酒店。我每次都可以输入我的喜好，然后代理会推荐一些选择。但是，有没有一个地方可以让我完全不用操心，代理可以为我安排好一切呢？我觉得现在还没有这样的服务。

No, no, no. And there definitely isn't one place today. I do think the cost of a bad decision in travel is very high. Yeah. So I don't think you're going to get to a place and I'm certainly not going to get to a place where I tell an agent to find me a hotel in San Francisco and just book it. And then, you know, on the day when I arrived there, I'm like, where am I going? Yeah. But I think agents can do a great job of reducing, you know, that list that Onyx speedy, you look at the 50 hotels and then you're filtering for, you know, maybe where you're looking or the class of hotels.

不，不，不。如今绝对没有这样的地方。我确实认为在旅行中做出错误决策的代价非常高。是的。所以我认为你不会到达一个地方，也当然不会让我到达一个地方，让代理为我在旧金山找一家酒店并直接预订。然后，在我到达的那天，我会问自己，我要去哪儿？但是我认为代理可以很好地帮忙减少选择，比如在Onyx上查看50家酒店，然后根据地理位置或酒店等级进行筛选。

It can, it can, it can give you the three hotels that you're most likely to like based on your historical experiences. So I think there's this in-between space and I think agents can do a great job in that in-between space. But I think that final decision, at least for me, is going to be up to you. But that collation, that kind of bringing everything together, that's a, that could be a very, very high utility. If you had an idea to build something around travel, sitting on the board of Expedia and running Uber at the same time, where do you build what?

这段话的大意是：系统可以根据你的历史经验，提供你最可能喜欢的三家酒店。我认为在这些选择之间还有一个中间地带，旅行代理人可以在这个中间地带发挥很好的作用。但我觉得最终的决定权，至少对我来说，应该是你的。但这种整理整合信息的能力，可以是非常有用的。如果你有一个关于旅游的创意，并且同时在Expedia的董事会上以及运营Uber，你会在哪里开展什么样的项目呢？

I think I would build, I would not go after the I, would not go after the inspiration side. Because I think the inspiration side, thank you very much, is, is going to be served really, really well by an open AI or a Google. They're collecting all the information. They're going to have lots of context about who you and I are. And, and the way people get inspired, it's so disversed that it's going to be very difficult for you to build one service that let's say services 70% of your inspiration.

我认为我会专注于建设，而不是追求灵感方面的事情。因为我认为灵感这一块，像开放AI或谷歌这样的公司可以做得非常好。他们正在收集所有的信息，会对你我有大量的背景了解。人们获得灵感的方式是如此多样化，以至于要创建一个能够满足你70%灵感需求的服务非常困难。

And, and I really do think that Google, open AI, other LLMs are, are going to just get better and better here. But I think the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, how the industries constructed right now is that, the OTA, the42, thezes, the worth Faith test groups, ví of faith and slowly Third muchís perfect.

而且，我真的认为Google、OpenAI和其他大型语言模型将会变得越来越好。但我觉得，目前行业的构建方式是，OTA、42科技等正在组建信任测试小组，并且在逐步完善。

Not only you had no personal understanding about that and you had to look at your data that stated that your price and furtherámya, while nose exercises were gone. These people to pay money for those Open companies that are coming in through that. All right. The ultimate solution is going to be an agent that can sit above it all and can kind of scour the internet and scour all the booking services and then surface the results which may be a mix and match of all of them for you based on your tastes. So I don't know actually and I hope it's expedia because I'm on the board and I love the company.

不仅你对这件事情没有个人的理解，你还必须查看你的数据，这些数据表明你的定价和进一步的情况，而鼻子锻炼已经消失。这些人要为那些正在进入市场的开放公司付钱。好的，最终的解决方案将是一个代理，可以在所有这些之上运行，并能够全面搜索互联网和所有订票服务，然后根据你的喜好为你提供一个可能是综合了所有结果的方案。我其实不知道，但我希望是Expedia，因为我是董事会成员，我非常喜欢这家公司。

I hope it will be expedia who puts it all together but there could be kind of an umbrella agent who is truly representing your interest versus speedies interest. Now, expedia is a great job. They will maybe expand or they will, you know, over a per-tot time, emalgamate all the content on the web so all the travel content on the web booking content on the web so that super agent doesn't add much value. When you have an umbrella agent soon you'll have another and then another.

我希望是Expedia能够整合所有信息，但也可能会有一个真正代表你利益的代理，而不仅仅是代表Expedia的利益。现在，Expedia做得很好。他们可能会扩展业务，或者在一段时间内整合所有在线旅游和预订内容，这样的话，那些超级代理就没有太大价值了。当你有一个这样的代理时，很快就会出现另一个，然后再出现另外的。

So will it come down to who is able to extrapolate your taste and can someone's taste be deciphered from past data, you think? I think it's going to be a combination of past data. I think that you want an agent that will do some exploration for you. So for example, when we are showing you the restaurants that you're likely to want to pick on Uber Eats, if all we show you is the ones that you're most likely to or based on what you've done in the past, then we're missing that surprise.

这最终会取决于谁能够推测出你的喜好吗？你认为可以从过去的数据中解读出一个人的喜好吗？我认为这将是结合过去的数据。我觉得你会希望有一个帮你探索的助手。例如，当我们在 Uber Eats 上向你展示你可能会选择的餐厅时，如果我们只展示那些你过去常点的，那么就会缺少惊喜感。

We're missing that explore. So you want an agent that's a combination of explore and exploit. I think that's going to be so I don't think it's just going to be on your past taste but it'll be putting your past taste with other people who look like you and then surprising you with some new choices as well. I think that's ultimately going to be the winner. Ultimately so much will come down to taste in this world. Well listen, taste, convenience, price, right?

我们缺少探索的部分。所以你需要一个结合“探索”和“利用”的代理。我认为这不仅仅是基于你的过去喜好，而是将你的过去喜好与其他与你相似的人结合起来，然后给你一些新的惊喜选择。我认为这样最终会是成功之道。最终，这个世界的许多事情都会归结于品味。听着，是品味、便利和价格，对吧？

I mean you and I may be lucky enough where taste is the overriding factor but they may be context for you. If your coming to San Francisco and has made week, you may want a cheap, decent place close to the Uber offices. And that's a different context than if you are going to go to Napa for the weekend where you want and experience either for yourself or for your friends or loved ones. So I do think that it's not as simple in terms of taste as based on the context of what you're solving for, you know your objective function and your objective function is going to change.

我的意思是，你我可能足够幸运，以品味为主要考虑因素，但对于你来说，也许情况会有所不同。如果你来到旧金山并且工作安排很紧，你可能会想找一个价格便宜、条件尚可并且靠近优步公司办公室的地方。这与当你计划周末去纳帕旅行、想要享受一番、无论是自我放松还是与朋友或爱人共度时光的情境是不同的。因此，我认为根据你想要解决的问题来判断品味并不简单，你知道你的目标是什么，而你的目标会随情况而变化。

Based on the context of what the goal that trip is. So Darra was trying to define what Uber is today. You mentioned Barry and match.com. Yeah. Are you match.com in a different way? I mean to some extent we're bringing obviously riders and drivers together and we're trying to meet match eaters with our restaurant partners with courier. So there is some of that. But listen, I think one way that I think about it from a consumer standpoint, you know, Uber is different thing to Uber to different people for the consumer.

根据那个旅程的目标背景来看，Darra 正试图定义今天的 Uber。你提到了 Barry 和 match.com。是的。你们是在以不同的方式做 match.com 吗？从某种程度上说，我们显然是在将乘客和司机结合在一起，并试图将食客与餐厅伙伴和快递员之间匹配，因此确实有这方面的内容。但我认为，从消费者的角度来看，Uber 对不同的人而言是不同的东西。

I really want Uber to be like that operating system for your everyday life. You know, we make your everyday life a little bit easier. We give you a little bit of time and convenience back in terms of where you want to go, what you want to eat more and more what you want. Right. If you want that iPhone same day, we'll do that for you. For our driver and courier partners, we are a source of work and a source of earnings based on your own needs.

我希望Uber能够像你日常生活中的操作系统一样。我们的目标是让你的日常生活变得更加轻松。无论是去你想去的地方，吃你想吃的东西，还是实现你更多的愿望，我们都能为你节省时间，提供便利。如果你希望当天收到iPhone，我们也可以为你做到。对于我们的司机和快递合作伙伴，我们是他们根据自身需求而获得工作的来源和收入的来源。

Now, you know, and you're going to balance your needs based on the commercial objectives as well. If your need is that I don't want to give rides at 2 a.m. in the morning, you may not make much money. So there's a combination of, you know, the marketplace combines what when you want to work with the realities of the commercial objectives, Hey, 9 p.m. Friday night, you may not want to work, but it's a great time to work in San Francisco.

现在，你知道了，你需要平衡自己的需求与商业目标。如果你的需求是凌晨2点不想接单，那你可能赚不了多少钱。市场就是这样，把你的工作时间选择和商业目标的现实情况结合起来。比如，周五晚上9点，你可能不想工作，但在旧金山这可是个好时机。

And then for restaurant partners, you know, we're a trusted partner and bringing a source of demand in terms of delivery and now retail and groceries, that's only going to grow. You know, what we see is the convenience that we offer in terms of delivery of starting food now, but everything that convenience is absolutely dynamite. It's something that people want all over the world and as they experience it more and more people want.

对于餐厅合作伙伴，我们是一位值得信赖的合作方，能够带来送餐方面的需求，如今还包括零售和杂货等领域，而且这种需求只会不断增长。我们所提供的便利性不仅仅限于起初的食物配送，而是涵盖了各类便利物品，这种便利性真的是非常吸引人。这是全世界的人们都渴望的东西，随着越来越多的人体验到这种便利性，他们的需求也会越来越大。

This is funny, but I was I got in last evening. Hope you took an Uber. No, I have a driver here. But I wanted a adapter. I'm using a lap, I'm using a couple of laptops which have India plug points and I needed a travel adapter and at 8.30 p.m. I was trying to like ideate my hotel didn't have one. Target. Best buy shuts down at 8 p.m. Walgreens had one store which was open up until 10 p.m.

这很有趣，但我昨晚刚到。希望你坐了Uber。没有，我这边有司机。但我需要一个适配器。我正在用几个笔记本电脑，它们是印度的插头，我需要一个旅行适配器。晚上8:30的时候，我发现酒店没有。Target和Best Buy都在晚上8点关门。Walgreens有一家店开到晚上10点。

I tried to download insta card on my phone which said I couldn't do it unless I have a US number. Oh yeah, sure. Did you try eats? Does Uber Eats have travel adapters? Yes. Yes. And can I have her international number? That's one of the issues with actually the name, right? Right. When we got out of, well, we wanted to expand from food to grocery and other items. We actually tested as Uber Eats the right name with consumers. And we found that consumers thought that it would carry. Like it's, and you've seen a lot of our branding, well, you may not have seen it because in India we don't have Uber Eats unfortunately.

我试着在手机上下载Instacart，但发现如果没有美国号码就无法下载。哦，是的，当然。你试过Uber Eats吗？Uber Eats是否有售旅行转换插头？是的，是的。那我可以获取她的国际号码吗？这就是实际上名字的问题之一，对吧？当我们想从食物扩展到杂货和其他商品时，我们实际上测试了Uber Eats这个名字在消费者中的接受度。我们发现消费者认为这个名字有吸引力。不过可能你没看到过我们很多的品牌宣传，因为在印度我们没有Uber Eats，很遗憾。

You've sold it in 2020, right? Yes. Yes. We partnered there. We didn't think we could win in India and we wanted to really focus on mobility. But Eats now has grocery, it's got retail and I'll bet you you could have found that travel adapter. So buy some learned for you next time. And by the way, Eats is now available on the on the rides app too. Nice. You sold Uber Eats to Zomato. Yes. For 400, 500 million. I think you had a 10% equity in Zomato in turn. They got a great deal.

你在2020年把它卖了，对吧？是的，是的。我们在那里进行了合作。我们认为在印度可能无法取胜，所以我们想专注于出行业务。但现在Eats包含了杂货和零售，我敢打赌你可以在那里找到旅行适配器。所以下一次可以吸取教训。顺便说一下，现在Eats也可以在乘车应用程序上使用了。不错。你把Uber Eats卖给了Zomato。是的，售价大概是4亿到5亿美元。我记得你因此获得了Zomato 10%的股份。他们得到了一个很好的交易。

Yeah. And then you got out of Zomato all together as well. Yes. Which is called eternal now. I remember. They changed the name of the company. Why is that? Why did you get out? What did you understand or learn about the Indian market? We got out not because of some deep thought as it relates to the Indian market. But my belief that we're not holding company. We're not an investment company. I am, that is not my core competency to take Uber, investors, capital and invest it really well.

是的。然后你也彻底退出了Zomato。是的。现在这家公司改名为Eternal。我记得。他们为什么改名字？你为什么退出？你对印度市场有什么理解或认识吗？我们退出不是因为对印度市场有多深刻的见解。而是因为我认为我们不是一个控股公司，也不是一个投资公司。我个人的核心能力并不在于将Uber的投资者资本进行良好的投资管理。

My competency is to build a big operating business that over a per-totime grows. Top line brings in lots of consumers all over the world and ultimately throws off a lot of profitability. And we can build a share price. My skill in terms of investment is not going to be a significant factor in the value creation here. So I believe in kind of sticking, you know, could I have had a wonderful intellectual time on trying to determine if I should sell Zomato now or later or 10 years from now? Sure. But that's not my core competence.

我的能力在于建立一个能够随时间增长的大型运营企业。企业的营业额能够吸引全球各地大量消费者，并最终带来可观的盈利。这样，我们也可以提升公司的股价。对于投资方面，我的技巧在这里并不是价值创造的主要因素。因此，我认为应该专注于自己的长处。比如，我可以花很多时间去分析，现在是否是出售Zomato的最佳时机，或者应该在十年后再卖吗？当然可以。但是，这并不是我的核心专长。

So I want, I like to stick to my core competence. Would you buy Zomato today? I don't know. I haven't looked at it actually. Right. Yeah. So I mean, they've done a great job. The food, the food delivery business. And now the instant grocery business and like Blinkit, I've heard it's actually larger than the core Zomato business was, right? Going faster. Yeah, very much so. So Uber is about 57% mobility, 30% delivery. For today, I'm going to ignore freight because I think it's growing at the little space as well.

所以我想，我喜欢坚持我的核心竞争力。你今天会购买Zomato的股票吗？我不知道，我其实没仔细研究过。对。他们在食品配送领域做得很好，而即食杂货业务，比如Blinkit，我听说它实际上比Zomato的核心业务还要大，对吧？增长更快。是的，确实如此。而Uber大约57%的收入来自出行服务，30%来自送餐服务。今天，我暂时不考虑货运，因为我觉得货运业务也处于缓慢增长的阶段。

Sure, but still. I get it. Yes. And I'm going to be a 20-year-old boy or girl in India trying to build a business in either mobility delivery, quick commerce. And maybe we get advice from Dara as to what to build and what the opportunities are. Oh, that's a, well, first I'd say don't try to build anything else Uber because we'll kick your ass. And you can buy us later. How big are network effects? Because you're already in so many markets and so big.

当然，但我明白。是的。我将成为印度一个20岁左右的年轻人，尝试在移动送货或快速商业领域创业。也许我们可以从达拉那里获得一些关于应该做什么以及机会在哪方面的建议。哦，首先我要说的是，不要尝试建立另一个类似Uber的东西，因为我们会让你无法竞争。以后你可以考虑收购我们。网络效应有多大？因为你们已经在这么多市场中占有一席之地，而且规模很大。

I'm guessing it's very hard to service a customer who wants to hire a Uber at 3 AM and 3 AM and 6 PM. Unless you have a network. Yeah. The network effects are very, very significant. Now, and so I do think that to invest in and build the required liquidity on both sides of the market is going to be very, very difficult. Now, the network effects to some extent can be local, right? So the liquidity that we have in Bangalore may be different from the liquidity that we have in Hyderbot.

我想要为凌晨3点和傍晚6点都想叫车的顾客提供服务可能非常困难，除非你拥有一个网络。是的，网络效应是非常非常显著的。因此，我确实认为，要在市场的买卖双方都建立和投资所需的流动性会非常非常困难。现在，网络效应在某种程度上可以是本地化的，对吧？所以我们在班加罗尔的流动性可能与在海得拉巴的流动性不同。

And so I do think that there's an opportunity, maybe Rappado took advantage of that opportunity of building out services in smaller cities and then building out liquidity in a way that's not quite as expensive because you're not trying to take on all of India, but go city by city by city and then get into larger cities. They started with, I think, two wheelers and three wheelers are trying to get into autos, et cetera. So I think if you find a niche where you believe you that you can build liquid, supply and demand on a local basis and then you can rinse and repeat that over and over again, it's essentially what Travis did with Uber when he founded it.

我认为，这里有一个机会，也许Rappado抓住了这个机会，在较小的城市中建立服务，然后逐步增加流动性。这样做的成本不高，因为他们不是试图一下子覆盖整个印度，而是逐个城市地扩展，然后再进入更大的城市。我想他们是从二轮车和三轮车开始的，之后尝试进入汽车等市场。所以，如果你能找到一个利基市场，在当地建立起供需平衡，并能不断重复这一模式，那就是Travis创办Uber时所采用的策略。

That is something that could work. And if you get large enough, maybe then and it might be a different segment, let's say intercity, for example, or some other segment that isn't particularly well served by the ubers of the world or those monitors of the world or some of the other players, then maybe that you can build something that could either compete with them or could be bought by them. That's an interesting insight. I watched a bunch of your interviews and I'm sorry.

这确实是一个可行的想法。而且，如果你做得足够大，也许可以进入一个不同的市场，比如说城市间交通，或者某个其他市场，这些领域目前并没有被全球的网约车巨头很好地覆盖。这样一来，或许你可以创建一个能够与他们竞争的企业，或者被他们收购。这是一个很有趣的见解。我看过你很多采访，抱歉。

Another actually really nice. Travis, they say that in society today as a leader, you're either awe-inspiring, dogmatic or you're somebody who builds consensus is more relatable per se. Have you had to project a more relatable image because you have to overcompensate for what Travis was projecting? I think that I really believe in as I don't think it works if you're trying to be someone other than who you are. People come to me and they ask me for leadership advice and the first piece of advice they give them is be true to yourself. Because the minute you're not true to yourself, people will smell that a mile off if you're not authentic. This is where that people mean authentic, etc. was mean. It's just be true to who you are.

另一个其实真的很好。特拉维斯，人们说在当今社会中，作为一个领导者，你要么令人敬畏、教条主义，要么就是一个更容易让人产生共鸣的共识建立者。你是否因为需要抵消特拉维斯所展现的特质而不得不塑造一个更具亲和力的形象？我真的相信，如果你试图成为一个不同于自己的人，这是行不通的。人们来找我寻求领导建议时，我给他们的第一条建议就是要忠于自己。因为如果你不忠于自己，人们会立刻察觉到你的不真诚。这里所指的真实、真实等意思就是要忠于自我。

I am the youngest brother of a really big family. We have thousands of cousins around and any wrong community and family is so important. Nobody's the star. If you're the star, you're going to be put in your place. I'm a fancy, fancy CEO here. But when I go to my family, I'm just one of the younger cousins and I'm no big deal. I love it. It's such a relief to be that person who that's my comfort zone. I tend to be more collaborative. When I played sports, I played defense. I always played team sports. I didn't want to win as an individual. I love the feeling of winning as a team. I don't want to be celebrating by myself. I don't want to celebrate with my team. That is who I am.

我是一个大家庭中最小的弟弟。我们有成千上万的堂兄弟姐妹，社区和家族关系非常重要。没有人是明星。如果你是明星，你就会被摆正位置。我在这里是一位很有牌面的CEO。但当我回到家族中，我只是众多小辈中的一个，没什么特别。我很喜欢这样，这让我很放松，这就是我感到舒适的地方。我倾向于合作。当我参与运动时，总是踢防守位置，我总是参加团队运动。我不希望以个人名义获胜，我热爱团队胜利的感觉。我不想独自庆祝，我想和团队一起庆祝。这才是我。

Maybe that's one of the reasons why I wound up here. My challenge as a leader is to get out of that collaborative mode sometimes and to really drive. For example, I'll give you a little story. It's a funny story, but it just taught me a lot. When we were during COVID, and the U.S.ung cover was devastating to our business, mobility was ninety percent out of business, and by far the profitable piece of the business, and overnight we lost 80-85 percent of our volume. Couldn't be worse. We were already losing two billion a year. It was a disaster. It became very clear that we had to undergo layoffs, not a fun time. I never thought I'd come to Uber to lay off thousands of people.

也许这就是我最后来到这里的原因之一。作为一个领导者，我面临的挑战是有时候要跳出合作模式，真正驱动进展。让我给你讲一个小故事。这个故事虽然有趣，但让我学到了很多。在新冠疫情期间，美国的限制措施对我们的业务造成了严重打击，尤其是我们的出行业务，几乎瘫痪了90%。这是公司中利润最高的部分，但我们一夜之间就损失了80-85%的业务量，情况糟糕透了。我们每年已经亏损20亿美元，这简直是灾难。当时很明显，我们不得不进行裁员，这是一个让人不愉快的决定。我从没想过自己会在加入优步后面临裁员数千人的局面。

And me, me, I was talking to my team, what do you think we should do? What are the levels? Where should we? I didn't want to do a peanut butter, kind of a layoff, etc. I want to be focused. And I would do meeting after meeting after meeting with my team because I wanted them all included and I wanted to hear what they had say. And Nelson Chey, my CFO at the time, he, we were talking, he's like, Dari, you know, we have a lot of respect for you and you're a really good person. And we've talked about this a lot. Why don't you just tell us what you want to do because you tell us what you want to do. We're right behind you. And I was like, my god, like sometimes collaboration, etc., talking about things doesn't help.

我和我的团队谈论这个问题时，我在想我们应该怎么做？我们应该关注哪些层面？我不想采取“一刀切”式的裁员方法。我希望能够有针对性。所以，我和团队开了一个接一个的会议，因为我希望大家都参与进来，并倾听他们的意见。那时，我的首席财务官Nelson Chey对我说：“Dari，我们都很尊敬你，你是个很优秀的人。我们已经讨论过很多次了，为什么你不直接告诉我们你的想法呢？只要你说出你的计划，我们都会全力支持你。”听到这些，我真的感慨，有时候过多的讨论和协作反而没什么帮助。

And as a leader, you have to go from collaboration, you know, from peacetime collaboration mode to wartime, like, I am the leader, I'm the general, I'm going to make a decision. And they're like, I didn't sleep damaged that night. But the next day I got everyone together. I'm like, here's what we're going to do. We cut deep in operations. We cut less deep on tech. It was very, very difficult. But like, we went and everyone was behind me. And why there was a really, really difficult time to some extent that brought the team together. It allowed Uber Eats to grow to incredible levels. And I think it made us a better company. I would never, ever want to go through that again, but made us a better company.

作为领导者，你需要从和平时期的合作模式转变为战时模式。在战时模式中，我是决策的主导者，就像一位将军，我要做出决策。他们可能会感到压力，甚至整夜无法入睡。但是第二天，我召集所有人，告诉他们我们的计划：大幅削减运营方面的成本，而对技术方面的削减则相对较小。这个过程非常艰难，但团队最终都支持我的决定。在这段极其困难的时期中，团队反而更加团结。这使得Uber Eats能够实现令人瞩目的增长，并最终成为了一家更优秀的公司。虽然我不愿再经历这样的挑战，但它确实让我们公司变得更好。

So for me, my general comfort zone is collaboration working with the team, listening to the team. But then what I've learned is there are certain circumstances where you have to switch your modes. And so I'll switch from collaboration to decision. Here's what we're going to do. And because my team sees me listening, collaborating most of the time, I think they give me credit when I say, all right, we're going to go this way. So it's who I am. I've been noticing I might be wrong in this. In a David versus Goliath world, David seems to have started winning quite often, which kind of doesn't make sense because we are largely a trust deficit planet.

对我来说，我一般的舒适区是与团队合作，倾听团队的意见。然而，我学到的是，在某些情况下你必须切换模式。因此，我会从协作转换到决策，明确指出：“这是我们要做的事情。” 因为我的团队看到我大多数时间都在倾听和合作，所以当我说：“好，我们要走这条路。”他们会给予我信任。这就是我。我发现，在一个大卫对阵歌利亚的世界里，大卫似乎经常开始获胜，这有点不符合常理，因为我们大体上是一个信任赤字的星球。

But a lot of people I know, I think it's weirdly correlated to affluence. Want to pick the smaller guy, the smaller brand, individuals over corporations. In such a world, I get that relatable makes a lot more sense than awe-inspiring dogmatic. But how does a company like Uber, which is 40 plus billion in revenue and millions of rides and employees and all of that? How do you evolve to project the David image while you already have one of this? I do think that there is, first of all, I feel like David, when we're competing in a technology world of trillion dollar plus companies. So while we may be a larger company, I don't feel like we're a big company at Uber. We've done well as a company, but like, I think there's so much more that we can do.

我认识的很多人，我觉得这和财富奇怪地相关。他们倾向于选择小公司、小品牌，或者是个人而不是大企业。在这样的环境下，我理解“平易近人”比“令人敬畏、教条主义”更有意义。但是像Uber这样一个有400多亿美元营收、成千上万次乘车以及众多员工的公司，该如何塑造大卫形象呢？在与市值超万亿美元的科技巨头竞争时，我确实认为我们像大卫。因此，虽然我们公司较大，但我并不觉得Uber是一家大公司。作为一个公司，我们取得了不错的成绩，但我认为我们还有很多可以发展的空间。

So I see our shortcomings much more than our accomplishments. And I think that there is, it's part of the culture of the company, which is not to overestimate ourselves and to act like a disruptor, et cetera. You do that consciously, project vulnerability. Goliath doesn't look like. I think it's kind of who I am. It goes back to my family. There's my father was like a really modest person. And he would, the minute I kind of thought I was hot shit. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. He would just throw me in my place. So I think part of it is who I am. I think part of it is where Uber came from. Remember, we were the upstarts.

所以我会更多地看到我们的不足，而不是成就。我认为这是公司文化的一部分，不高估自己，像一个颠覆者一样行事等等。这样做是有意识地展现脆弱性，大公司不会这样做。我觉得这也是我的个人风格，与我的家庭有关。我父亲是一个非常谦逊的人，每当我有些自我膨胀时，他就会让我认清现实。所以，我认为这部分是我的性格，也与Uber的背景有关。记得，我们曾经是初出茅庐的新人。

This company wouldn't exist if we weren't challenging the status quo. But how do you continue to look like the upstart tomorrow if the world picks day? I hope so. Now, I would tell you that internally, I do we are upstarts and I want to have that upstart mentality here. We do have to recognize the power that we have. And I do think that's a mistake that Uber made early on, which is we had to fight for our lives. But then at some point, we did get large. We had incredible impact in the cities in which we operated with in. And that does come with that does come with responsibility.

如果我们不去挑战现状，这家公司就不会存在。但如果世界选择了传统，我们该如何在明天继续看起来像一个新兴者呢？我希望如此。现在，我想告诉你的是，在公司内部，我们确实是新兴者，我希望在这里拥有那种新兴者的心态。我们必须认识到自己所拥有的力量。我认为这是Uber早期犯的一个错误，也就是我们必须为生存而战，但在某个时刻我们变得庞大了，对我们运营的城市产生了巨大影响，而这也意味着我们有相应的责任。

And so I do think there's this weird kind of dualism about our identity, which is internally we want to feel like upstarts all the time. Every single day we're fighting for our lives. We hire from a lot of big tech companies and we say, come here, you're going to work here as soft, you'll probably make a little bit less money. But you're going to the work that you do can truly an individual engineer Uber can have huge effect across the company. And that is really cool. And at the same time, the effect that you have on the company also has an effect on society too, because we are big.

我们对自身身份有一种奇怪的二元观念：内心深处，我们总是希望自己保持新锐的姿态，每天都在为生存而战。我们从很多大科技公司招聘员工，并对他们说，来这里工作，你会感到轻松，可能赚的钱会少一点，但你所做的工作能够让单个工程师在Uber内部产生巨大影响，这是非常酷的。同时，你在公司所产生的影响也会对社会产生影响，因为我们公司规模很大。

And so there's this dualism that you have to keep within Uber, which is within these walls, we're going to act like startup. But outside of the walls and discussions we have with regulators and discussions that we have with our drivers, our careers, our restaurants, right now as we're a big company and that does come with responsibility. And it means that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This is some advice I want personally. At some point Uber had different teams attaching different cities for market share. And these teams almost competed with each other and net net, it seemed to work well for Uber.

在Uber内部，你需要保持一种双重意识。在公司内部，我们要像初创公司一样行动。但在外部，无论是与监管机构、司机、合作伙伴还是餐馆的对话中，我们要意识到自己是一家大公司，这也意味着我们必须承担相应的责任。这意味着即便我们有能力做某事，也不代表我们应该去做。这是我个人想给的建议。曾经，Uber不同行动小组在不同城市争夺市场份额，相互之间几乎形成了竞争关系。从整体来看，这策略似乎对Uber非常奏效。

I tend to do this very organically with people I have. I don't know if it's good in the long run or bad, but I make them compete with each other. Sure. What have you learned? Does it work? It works as a growth tactic, but it doesn't scale. So to some extent, what you want to do is you want to have these humans and teams compete against each other to hack your way into the best solution possible. Then after they get to that best solution possible, you then have to come in and automate that solution through Algo, through engineering, etc. And then what was the frontier becomes a part of the core and then you move to the next frontier.

我倾向于与我拥有的人自然地进行这种方式。我不知道从长远来看这是否好，但我让他们相互竞争。当然，你学到了什么？这种方法有效吗？它作为一个成长策略是有效的，但无法扩展到更大规模。因此，在某种程度上，你希望让这些人和团队相互竞争，以此方式寻找最佳解决方案。一旦他们达到了这个最佳解决方案，你就需要介入，通过算法、工程等手段将其自动化。然后，曾经的前沿就成为核心的一部分，你再转向下一个前沿。

So that's kind of the design aspect that we have. The team is actually very, very entrepreneurial. You know, Uber teams, to some extent, was an amalgamation of a bunch of technologies that we built. And our CPO Sachin, who kind of had these like he was obsessed with that idea, is that well, we have a bunch of safety functionality here. We can put together teams with our safest drivers. We have tracking functionality here. I'm going to put this whole thing together and hack together what you call this team solution. And the hack it, you move quickly, you see if this product market fit.

这就是我们设计方面的理念。我们的团队实际上非常具有创业精神。你知道，Uber的团队在某种程度上是我们开发的多种技术的结合。我们的首席产品官萨钦对这个想法非常着迷：我们有一整套安全功能，我们可以与最安全的司机组建团队。我们还有追踪功能，所以他把这一切结合起来，迅速组建了一个所谓的“团队解决方案”。通过这种方式快速行动，看看这个产品是否符合市场需求。

And then once you see this signal that this product market fit, you do have to system ties it. Because if you don't system ties it, you can't scale. So you have to have both muscles within the organization. But it's a good way to discover something. Totally. You don't want to like it that that the signal, we don't do this anymore, but at Expedia and the olden days, you know, we like put a button on the website just to see if there's demand for that button. And someone, you know, will click it and be like, oh, I'm sorry, it's not working right now. And we're just doing it to collect signal. You know, that's the biggest hack possible, right? So, so and that once you see that product market fit, you got to, you got to build behind it. And some companies make the mistake of not building behind it. And you can get away with it for a while. But at some point, the system falls apart.

一旦你发现产品与市场契合的信号，你就需要将其系统化。如果不这样做，就无法实现规模化。因此，公司内部需要具备这两种能力。但这是一个很好的发现方法，确实如此。我们不再这样做，但在Expedia的早期，我们会在网站上放一个按钮, 看看是否有需求。如果有人点击了按钮，我们会告诉他们：“抱歉，现在无法使用。”我们这样做只是为了收集信号。这可能是最大的一种"黑客"手段。所以，一旦你看到了产品与市场的契合点，你就需要在此基础上进行建设。有些公司犯了不在这基础上构建的错误，这种做法可以在短期内奏效，但到了某个时候，系统就会崩溃。

When you speak about DoorDash or when you when you spoke about Zomato right now, you complimented them, praised them. I heard you on interview speaking about how DoorDash went after the suburbs and you guys missed out. You praising competition. Is that a way to appear more David, you know, David versus Goliath world again? It's not it's not a it's not an act. Right. Um, I think DoorDash is a really great company. I don't like them. Yeah. But they make us better. And they're worthy competitor, global competitor. They're beating us right now in the US, but not for long. And we're beating them outside the US. And the two companies going against each other makes both companies better and actually builds a better service or consumers and carriers and restaurants all over the world.

当你提到DoorDash或者刚才提到Zomato时，你称赞了他们。我听过你在采访中谈到DoorDash如何开拓郊区市场，而你们没能把握住这个机会。你赞扬竞争对手，是不是想在大卫与巨人之战中显得更像大卫？其实这并不是做戏。我认为DoorDash是一家非常优秀的公司，虽然我不喜欢他们，但他们确实让我们变得更好。他们是一家值得尊敬的全球竞争对手。目前他们在美国领先我们，但不会维持太久。而在美国以外的地方，我们打败了他们。这两家公司互相竞争，使得双方都更强，并且为全球的消费者、配送员以及餐厅提供更优质的服务。

I think, you know, the humility that we talked about before, I think that actually creates a strength because you're curious. You're not overconfident. You don't think like you're the best in the world. You're curious about what others are doing. And for me, it motivates me and drives me to be better. You know, if I say DoorDash is a good competitor, they are a good competitor, that's motivation for me and my team to be better. You said outside US, you're beating them and they're beating you here. Does India belong though? Does India as a market matter? You once observed when you were there that Indians are very demanding and they don't want to pay for anything. That comment cost me. It, um, it matters hugely for us. Right. Uh, it's India's now our third largest market in terms of mobility trips.

我认为我们之前谈到的谦逊实际上是一种力量，因为它让你保持好奇心。你不会过于自信，也不会认为自己是世界上最优秀的。你会对别人正在做的事情感到好奇。对我来说，这种好奇心激励我自己去变得更好。比如说，如果我说DoorDash是一个很好的竞争对手，他们确实是，这就激励了我和我的团队去超越现状。你提到在美国之外，我们在击败他们，而在这里他们击败了我们。那印度呢？印度这个市场重要吗？你曾经在印度时观察到，印度人要求很高，但又不想付钱。那番言论让我花了不少代价。对我们来说，这非常重要。现在，印度已经成为我们在出行订单量方面的第三大市场。

Uh, we've got, I think, over 1.4 million now drivers, auto, you know, two or three wheelers and four wheelers in India. The growth there is spectacular. I think India is already one of the great countries in the world. But if you look at it as a share of GDP, it's only going to increase. The leadership there is amazing and and so much of a talent pool, not just in India, but all over the world comes from India descent as well. So India is, you know, it is a absolute must win for Uber, not just tomorrow, but 10 years from now. I'm going to go back to being a 20 year old who's starting a business in this industry. You know, I say don't start one in this industry. Don't try something else.

嗯，目前我们在印度已经有超过140万名司机，包括汽车、两轮车和三轮车。这一增长非常惊人。我认为印度已经是世界上非常重要的国家之一。如果我们从GDP占比来看，这个比例只会不断增加。印度的领导力非常出色，并且不只是印度，还有世界各地都涌现出很多具有印度背景的人才。因此，印度对于优步来说是一个绝对必须赢得的市场，不仅仅是明天，而是未来十年。我回想起自己20岁时创业的经历，我会建议大家不要在这个行业创业，尝试其他的机会。

How do I recognize the opportunity versus damn, like the total addressable market? Like if I want to start quick commerce in India and the cost of delivery is say 20 rupees or 30 rupees or 50 rupees. If the total addressable market that can afford a product like that in India be 20 million people or 50 million people, where is the number right? A lot of the spend, a lot of consumption in India is still going towards groceries as much as 50, 60, percent. So how do I justify to myself that my business idea is sound that I'm going to charge 50 rupees a delivery? How many people do I model for? Where does that fit come across geographies? I say you're way overthinking it. You know, businesses never, businesses that succeed are always adapting and adjusting.

如何分辨机会与市场总潜力？比如我想在印度开展快速配送服务，而配送费用是20、30或50卢比。如果在印度能负担得起这种服务的人口是2000万还是5000万，那到底这个数字应该是多少呢？在印度，大量的消费（多达50%或60%）仍然投入在日常杂货上。所以我如何说服自己，我的商业想法是合理的，即我要收取50卢比的配送费？我应该给多少人建模？这种情况在不同地区是如何体现的？我想说你实在是想得太多了。你知道吗，成功的企业总是会不断适应和调整的。

So what I tell you is figure out if there's product market fit in that narrow segment, call it the 50. And by the way, if it's narrow, that's great because then the big players are probably not going to come after it. It's a segment where you can add value and a segment where you can own. And then if you establish product market fit and you build a business there, then you can go to the next area to the next area to the next area. But if my market size is only 20 million people who can afford it, still build it? Build it as long as there's product market fit in terms of unit economics that makes sense.

因此，我对你的建议是，在这个狭小的市场领域中找到产品与市场的契合点，比如一个由50个客户组成的细分市场。顺便说一句，如果这个市场很小，那就很好，因为这样一来，大公司可能就不会来竞争了。这是一个你可以增值和拥有的市场。如果你在这个细分市场中建立了产品市场契合，并在那里建立了业务，那么你就可以继续扩展到下一个市场，再下一个市场。即便你的目标市场只有2000万人能负担得起，只要在单个产品经济效益上能够实现产品市场契合，那就值得去做。

And once you get to those 20 million people, you're going to find an adjacency to get into and then you'll find another adjacency and you'll find another. But then I'm competing with people like you who already are sitting on the network that's going to be taking. Yeah, but the big tabs are going to be taking. So actually, specifically, you should go after the small tabs and the small opportunities where you can create a network effect without enormous investments either in technology or development or monies. You actually specifically should go after the small tabs and then work your way into the adjacencies over a period of time.

一旦你接触到这两千万用户，你会发现一些相关领域可以进入，接着你会发现另一个相关领域，然后再发现另一个。但是，我要和像你这样已经在网络上占据优势的人竞争。是的，大玩家会占据主要市场。因此，你应该专注于小众市场和小机会，在不需要大量技术、开发或资金投入的情况下创造网络效应。你应该特别关注这些小众市场，然后随着时间的推移逐步扩展到相关领域。

I wasn't around. But at the time, you know, when UberEast was conceived of, I think it was Jason Drogey and Travis, they were like driving around a bunch of cars with burritos in the trunk of that car. It was like a manifestation of mobility, a very close manifestation. And you look at where delivery has gone and how large it's become. You know, I don't think they would have ever predicted that. So you just get one step to next step to the next step.

我那时候不在现场。但在Uber Eats构思出来的时候，据我所知，好像是Jason Drogey和Travis，他们开着装满墨西哥卷饼的车到处跑。这就像是移动性的一个具体表现形式。而现在看看外卖行业的发展，它已经变得如此庞大。我想他们当初怎么也不会想到会发展到今天这个地步。就是一步一步地逐步发展过来的。

I don't believe in overthinking tab. Packing tabs are like you build those for IR and you build those to raise money. You may want to create this wonderful dramatic tab to go raise, you know, a couple million bucks. But that's not what should be processing to your mind. It should be, can I build a service that has eventually strong unit economics that then I can build on top of? So quick commerce seems to have sidestepped the US for a long time. I think you went to Big Box retail and then you went to another thing altogether. Yeah. Not necessarily competing on I will deliver in six minutes. I will deliver in seven and I will deliver in eight. Why is that? Because the cost of labor in the US is too high.

我不太相信过度思考标签。打包标签就像为了投资者关系（IR）或者筹集资金而做的。你可能想创建一个非常有吸引力的标签来筹集几百万资金，但这不应该是你主要考虑的问题。你应该想的是，我能不能建立一个最终拥有强大单元经济学的服务，然后在这基础上进行发展。快速商业似乎长时间没有在美国扎根。我觉得你们去了大型零售商，然后又走上了另一条截然不同的路。不一定是在比拼谁能6分钟、7分钟或8分钟送达。为什么呢？因为在美国，劳动力成本太高了。

So I, that's my take, which is with quick commerce, you can't automate that much because the cost of the automation doesn't bear out in a small box. So you have to use human labor. And so in markets where the cost of human labor is not there and the concentration of customers isn't there, you get a fail, which is, for example, let's say in the US. You know, I think that Gopop has been a good run at it. But you look at the development of that market versus a blanket or some of the other developing markets. It is absolutely working much, much better in lower cost labor markets than it is in high cost labor markets.

所以，在我看来，快速商业的自动化程度有限，因为自动化的成本在一个小规模经营中并不划算。因此，需要依靠人工劳动力。在那些人工成本高且顾客集中度不高的市场，往往不太成功，比如说在美国。我认为Gopop做得不错，但如果你对比市场的发展情况，与一些新兴市场相比，它在低劳动力成本市场中显然运作得更好，而在高劳动力成本市场中效果不佳。

Is there an arbitrage there because your drivers are not essentially employees? Is there a labor cost arbitrage because their gig workers, they run their own cars, they don't need to be paid benefits insurance? Yeah, there's a trade-off there, right? Which is we can't tell our drivers when and when to work, right? So imagine if Starbucks is hiring a barista, they don't go to the barista. Hey, Shob, whenever you want to and you know, we'll pay you however much of Starbucks barista makes per hour.

因为你的司机本质上不是员工，所以会存在套利空间吗？这种劳动力成本的套利是否因为他们是临时工，他们开自己的车，并且不需要支付福利和保险？是的，这里有个权衡，对吧？因为我们不能告诉司机何时工作。例如，如果星巴克聘请咖啡师，他们不会对咖啡师说：嘿，Shob，你可以随便什么时候来上班，我们会根据星巴克咖啡师的时薪支付你。

So you could call it a labor arbitrage. I call it a trade-off, which is the driver and the courier can decide when and where they want to work. That creates cost for us. We then have to build liquidity of supply and demand and sometimes we will use incentives and or algorithms, for example, surge. There are circumstances when demand exceeds supply and in those cases we have to actually raise prices for that demand in order to attract enough drivers to get out into the market to pick up everyone arriving at 7 p.m. on Thursday night at the airport or when the Warriors game is done.

你可以把这称为劳动套利。但我称其为一种权衡，这是因为司机和快递员可以自行决定何时何地工作。这对我们来说会产生成本。因此，我们需要建立供需的流动性，有时候我们会使用激励措施或算法，比如动态加价。有些情况下，需求超出了供应，这时我们实际上需要提高价格，以吸引足够的司机进入市场，接送那些在星期四晚上7点到达机场的人，或者是在勇士队比赛结束后的人。

So I wouldn't, it's not an arbitrage mechanism. It is a trade-off that also is an enormous benefit to certain people who don't want to work on a schedule, who want to work less than 40 hours a week. You know, 70% of our drivers and couriers are working less than 20 hours a week. So it is a unique product market fit that we found. It works for drivers and couriers. It works for us. We have to build very complex systems in order to make it work and overall when you look at society, it's good for society. It's a service both for the drivers and for customers that works and I think more and more societies are appreciating that.

所以，我不会这么说，这并不是一种套利机制。这是一种权衡，同时对一些不想按照固定时间表工作、希望每周工作少于40小时的人来说，是个巨大的好处。你知道吗？我们70%的司机和送货员每周工作少于20小时。所以这是一种独特的产品市场契合，我们发现这种模式对司机和送货员有效，对我们也有效。我们必须建立非常复杂的系统来确保这种模式的运作。从整体上看，这对社会是有益的。这是一项对司机和客户都有用的服务，我认为越来越多的社会对此表示赞赏。

You've spoken about autonomous vehicles a bunch of times and I don't know if it will happen sooner or later than you predict. Everyone has been wrong so far. The predictions generally of autonomous and when it's going to be ready for market, this is a problem that Waymo has been working on probably for 15-20 years and it's proven out to be a much more difficult problem to solve than anyone expected, but finally it's working now. I mean, the Waymo product is spectacular and there are others building out the products as well.

你多次谈到过自动驾驶车辆，但我不确定它会比你预测的更早还是更晚实现。到目前为止，所有人的预测都错了。关于自动驾驶何时能准备好进入市场的预测一直是个问题。Waymo 可能已经在这个领域耕耘了15到20年，事实证明这比任何人想象的要难得多，但现在它终于开始奏效了。我是说，Waymo 的产品非常出色，另外也有其他公司在开发类似的产品。

I was at a junction last evening and there was a fire truck behind a Waymo. Interesting. And I couldn't find it on? The sirens were on. And the Waymo actually did this interesting maneuver where it went right, stopped there, waited for the fire truck to go. It was incredible. Yeah, perfect. What do you think wins? Waymo's tech or Tesla's cameras, LiDAR radar? I personally believe that autonomous vehicles have to have superhuman levels of safety. I don't think it's good enough for them to be better than humans. They have to be multiple times better than humans and Waymo most certainly proven that that's possible. So why not take that shot?

昨天晚上，我在一个十字路口，看到一辆消防车在一辆Waymo的自动驾驶车后面，场面很有趣。我找不到具体发生了什么？当时警报器响着。Waymo采取了一个有趣的动作：它向右转，停在那里，等消防车通过。这真是令人难以置信，非常完美。你觉得谁更厉害？是Waymo的技术，还是特斯拉的摄像头和激光雷达？我个人认为自动驾驶汽车必须达到超越人类的安全水平，我觉得仅仅比人类更好是不够的，它们需要比人类好多个等级，而Waymo已经证明这是可能的。所以，为什么不尝试一下呢？

I think in the near term is going to be very difficult and Elon would tell me I'm wrong and never bet against him, but it's my instinct that in the near term it's going to be very difficult to build a camera-only product that has superhuman levels of safety. And again, now at some point will it be possible? Quite possibly yes. But if you can have instrumentation that includes cameras and LiDAR and the cost of LiDAR, you know, Solid State LiDAR now is 400 or 500 bucks. Why not include LiDAR as well in order to achieve superhuman safety? So possible, yeah, it will be possible. I don't know when, but is the possible that better product? I'm not sure.

我觉得在短期内，这将会非常困难。埃隆可能会告诉我我错了，并说永远不要低估他，但我的直觉是，短期内要建立一个仅依靠摄像头的产品来实现超越人类水平的安全性是非常困难的。当然，将来某个时候是否可能实现？很可能是的。但是如果你可以使用包括摄像头和激光雷达在内的设备，现在的固态激光雷达只需400到500美元，为什么不同时使用激光雷达来实现超越人类的安全性呢？所以可能性是有的，确实是可能的。我不知道什么时候，但是是否可能做出更好的产品？我不确定。

I would, I, all of our partners that we're working with now are using a combination of camera, radar, and LiDAR. And you know, I personally think that's the right solution, but I could be proven wrong. What happens to Uber's earners when if autonomous becomes safer and cheaper? One could argue that putting a human behind a wheel is a disservice because you're putting somebody at risk. At that point, what happens to all the earners who are working with Uber? Well, I think it's not just earners. It's then why should humans drive? Right? The society would be, I think there are about a million auto-related fatalities in the world, so why not save those lives? I think that that is, it's an inevitability for that to happen.

我想说的是，我们目前合作的所有伙伴都在使用相机、雷达和激光雷达的组合。我个人认为这是正确的解决方案，但我可能会被证明是错的。如果自动驾驶变得更安全、更便宜，那么Uber的司机会怎么样呢？有人可以说让人类来驾驶是对他们的不负责任，因为这让他们面临风险。在这种情况下，那些和Uber合作的司机会怎么样呢？我认为问题不仅仅是司机，而是我们为什么还要让人类驾驶？对社会来说，全球每年大约有一百万起与汽车相关的事故，那为什么不去拯救这些生命呢？我认为，这是必然会发生的趋势。

So it's not just drivers, but also all the drivers, whether professional or not, wouldn't drive anymore. And I think that would be a good outcome for society. I do think we have time between, I think it's a good 20 years, you know, because right now the drivers, the autonomous drivers are safer, but much more expensive, even in developed markets that have high labor costs. So for autonomous to come into India, is going to take a long time in terms of cost of hardware coming down.

所以不仅仅是某些司机，而是所有的司机，无论他们是否是专业的，都将不再开车。我认为这对社会来说是个好结果。我觉得我们还有时间，大概还有20年。因为目前自动驾驶的车辆更安全，但即使在劳动力成本高的发达市场，它们也更加昂贵。因此，要让自动驾驶进入印度，硬件成本的下降需要很长时间。

So 20 years, I'm describing as an end state. Within 10 years, you're going to see a significant number of autonomous vehicles, especially in developed markets. And I think that's a very good thing in terms of safety. And what we're trying to do is make sure we communicate with our drivers appropriately. And it's very, very small at this point. It's a teeny, teeny part of rides in any markets. And we're actively looking to create other work opportunities for those drivers as well. So for example, I'm actually going to go to a meeting later today of a new group that we built Uber AI solutions that is using our gig workers and then other specialist workers as well for, you know, AI labeling, translation, all kinds of needs and products that actually serve these AI models, some of which may be autonomous or not, that ultimately are going to be doing a bunch more of the manual work, not just driving, but the manual work that many workers do today.

20年后，我描述的是一个终极状态。在未来的10年内，尤其是在发达市场中，你会看到大量的自动驾驶车辆出现。我认为这对安全来说是非常好的。我们正在努力确保与我们的司机进行适当的沟通。目前自动驾驶的比例非常小，在任何市场中都是极少的一部分。我们也在积极寻找为这些司机创造其他工作机会的方法。例如，今天我计划参加一个新的小组会议，这个小组是我们建立的Uber AI解决方案小组。该小组正利用我们的零工以及其他专业人员来进行AI标注、翻译等各种需求，以服务于这些AI模型中的一些，可能是自动化的，也可能不是。但最终这些模型将承担更多的手工工作，不仅仅是驾驶，而是许多工人今天所做的手工工作。

I was having this debate with a friend of mine back in India. And they were like autonomous for India with the cows and dogs and cars and all of that. But when you think about it, if a computer has a reaction time which is faster than a human, an autonomous vehicle should do better with more arbitrary things like this at play. Totally. I think it's just a question of training. And if autonomous vehicles can figure out near city traffic, India traffic is harder, but it's only an issue of training on additional data sets and improving the capabilities there.

我之前和在印度的一位朋友讨论过这个话题。他们提到自动驾驶汽车在印度这样的环境中运作，比如牛、狗和车混杂在一起。但仔细想想，如果计算机的反应速度比人类快，自动驾驶汽车应该在处理这样的复杂情况时表现更好。我完全同意，我认为这只是一个训练的问题。如果自动驾驶汽车能够应对城市交通，虽然印度的交通更复杂，但这只是需要通过额外的数据集训练来提高它们的能力。

Yeah. And I don't want to be unfair with this question of what happens in 20 years to earners. Even if it takes 20 years because I could extrapolate the same thing for so many industries where AI will disrupt their jobs in 20 years. Yeah, that's a societal issue. But what happens to society? What has happened to society repeatedly and repeatedly is that the workforce is adjusted over and over again. Every single time when more of Vantifatrium was automated, there's always this drama of, oh my god, what happens to the people? And people figure it out.

好的。我不想在关于20年后收入者会发生什么的问题上表现得不公平。即使需要20年，因为我可以推测，与许多行业一样，人工智能将在20年内颠覆他们的工作。这是一个社会问题。那么，社会会发生什么变化呢？社会反复发生的事情是，劳动力不断地进行调整。每次更多的工厂实现自动化时，总会有这样的戏剧性问题：天哪，那这些人怎么办呢？但人们总能找到解决办法。

And people usually then go to higher value types of labor. And you know, the unemployment rate, our world has more automation today than it ever has been. And unemployment rates are at historical lows in most developed countries. I think the question is whether or not this is a unique time and circumstance where the change is going to happen faster than it ever has before. And based on the rate of technological change there, there's a reason to believe that yeah, maybe this time may happen faster than societies historically have been able to adjust to change. I don't know that yet. I don't think it's a problem for Uber. It's a problem for, well, it is a potential issue for Uber and it could be a real problem. But it's a big societal problem that we all have to take on. But there's also opportunity there. How can we educate our workforce and bring to them opportunities that ultimately allow them to live the kinds of life that they want to.

人们通常会转向更高价值的劳动类型。你知道，现在我们的世界比以往任何时候都更加自动化，而失业率在大多数发达国家都处在历史低位。我认为问题在于，这是否是一个独特的时机和环境，导致变化将比以往任何时候都来得更快。基于技术发展的速度，有理由相信这次的变化可能会比社会历史上能够适应变化的速度更快。我尚不确定。我不觉得这对 Uber 是个问题，但这确实是一个潜在的问题，甚至可能成为一个真正的问题。然而，这也是一个我们全社会都要面对的重大问题。但这其中也存在机会。我们如何能够教育我们的劳动力，并为他们提供最终可以让他们过上理想生活机会呢？

Our kind of building Uber AI solutions is one small step in that direction. But believe me, we don't have all the answers. Do you suspect Dara that you might lose access to data like you have now? If tomorrow, say Elon saying that Tesla will not need Uber or even Weimo, I'm guessing a lot of the data is controlled by the hardware and let's buy who booked the Weimo. Well, I think that we actually now have we're collecting data using Lucid cars in a bunch of cities as well. So I think for Uber data is not going to be a problem. And we will have data capture capabilities. We'll work with our partners to capture data as well and then provide them to our partners all over the world. And based on the growth that we see, our access to data is only going to increase.

我们在构建Uber AI解决方案方面所做的只是朝着这个方向迈出的一小步。但相信我，我们并没有所有的答案。你是否怀疑会失去像现在这样获取数据的机会呢？假设明天Elon说特斯拉不再需要Uber或者Weimo，我猜很多数据是由硬件和预订Weimo的人控制的。不过，我认为我们现在已经开始在多个城市使用Lucid汽车收集数据了。所以我认为对于Uber来说，数据不会成为问题。我们将拥有数据捕捉能力，并将与我们的合作伙伴一起收集数据，随后与全球的合作伙伴共享数据。基于我们看到的增长情况，我们获取数据的能力只会不断提升。

Right. Travis is doing ghost kitchens. Yes. I watched an interview of his where he was speaking about how this could change. How we eat? Any of you on that? Do you think that's going to happen? I think it's inevitable. I think it will take time. Change in the real world really takes time. But I've been super impressed with what Travis has done with ghost kitchens and now he's working on robotics as well to automate more of the cooking process and bringing healthy, natural food to more people with less labor. That's really, really cool. And he's a terrific partner. We work with cloud kitchens all over the world. They're a big partner and Travis is an entrepreneur that you should not underestimate.

好的。Travis 正在做“幽灵厨房”（ghost kitchens）。是的。我看过他的一次采访，他在谈论这项技术如何改变我们的饮食方式。你们有人对此有了解吗？你们认为这会成为现实吗？我认为这是不可避免的。我认为这需要时间。现实世界中的变化确实需要时间。但我对Travis在“幽灵厨房”上的成就印象深刻，而且他现在还在研究机器人技术，以便在更少的人力情况下自动化更多烹饪过程，并为更多人提供健康、天然的食品。这真的很酷。他是一个很棒的合作伙伴。我们与全球的云厨房（cloud kitchens）都有合作。他们是一个重要的合作伙伴，而Travis是一位不容小觑的企业家。

Any view on what could happen to restaurants, Dara? Like I know a bunch of them large chains back home who constantly complain about the 15 to 30% they end up paying delivery operators and they talk about how it's unsustainable. Add to that, you have the data and you start dock kitchens or what Travis is doing. What happens to an old school restaurant business? Well, I think an old school restaurant business that can't adjust is going to suffer. They're going to lose share. And so I think it's a job of the old school restaurant business to become a new school restaurant business. How do you do that? Well, I think if you break down what restaurants do is there's a component which is food, right? Give you great food that you enjoy. And there's another component which is hospitality, which has come to this restaurant and there's an environment that you might enjoy, etc. And there's the mood.

你怎么看待餐厅未来的发展，达拉？我知道很多大型连锁餐厅一直在抱怨他们要支付给外卖平台15%到30%的费用，他们认为这是不可持续的。此外，你手上有数据，开始投资云厨房，或者像特拉维斯那样的做法。那传统餐饮业会怎么样呢？我认为那些无法调整的传统餐厅将会面临困境，他们的市场份额会减少。因此，传统餐厅需要转型为“新派”餐厅。要怎么转型呢？我认为，餐厅的经营可以分为几个部分，一个是提供美味的食物，让顾客享受美食；另一个是提供优质的服务，让顾客享受在餐厅环境中用餐的氛围和心情。

There's the romance of a restaurant as well. I think that what you will, there are certain restaurants where the hospitality part of the offerings is not quite as significant. McDonald's is more about the food than it is about going sitting in McDonald's and enjoying the seating there. It is about the food and the brand and affordable food available quickly to so many people. And so I do think that those depending on the kind of food that you're providing, if it's about the food, then you will have to make this transition to either drive through or delivery because you're not adding much value in terms of hospitality. And in those kinds of circumstances, what cloud kitchens offers you, which is a more industrialized way of still providing really healthy food to someone and the hospitality there is, well, I want to eat at home. I love my home. That is essentially where that system is going to go.

餐厅也有一种浪漫的感觉。但我认为在某些餐厅里，接待服务这部分并不是特别重要。比如麦当劳更侧重于食物，而不是在麦当劳享受座位。它主要是以食物、品牌和快速供应给大众的经济实惠餐饮为主。因此，我认为如果你提供的主要是食品，那么你就需要转型为提供外卖或者送餐服务，因为在接待方面你并没有提供太多额外的价值。在这种情况下，云厨房为你提供了一种更工业化的方法，依然能为消费者提供健康美食，而这里的"接待"则变成了：我想在家吃饭，我爱我的家。这基本上就是这种系统的发展方向。

And yes, will it take share from the classic restaurant business? It will. But it's also actually extending the share of restaurant eating or restaurant food as a percentage of overall food consumption. If you look at restaurant sales, restaurant sales are growing faster than grocery sales. Because these restaurants are providing a better product more affordably, more conveniently. And then I do think that there will be certain restaurants where that hospitality, that the third place that Starbucks was so good, and I think Brian Nichols is trying to bring in, the feel that part of it is still, I think, going to sing, the romance of going to restaurant. And so I think that those two, the utility and the romance are going to be separable. And you as a restaurant have to understand where you want to be, because I think the middle is going to be a difficult place to live.

是的，新兴的餐饮业务会占据一些传统餐馆的市场份额。但是，它实际上也在扩大餐饮在整体食物消费中的比例。如果你看餐馆的销售额，它们的增长速度比杂货店销售更快。这是因为餐馆提供的产品更好、更实惠、更方便。我认为某些餐馆会保留那种热情好客的氛围，比如星巴克曾经非常擅长营造的“第三空间”的感觉，Brian Nichols 也在努力引入这种氛围。这种到餐馆就餐的浪漫感仍然会引起共鸣。因此，我认为功能性和浪漫感这两者是可以分开的。作为一家餐馆，你必须明白你想要处于哪个位置，因为中间地带可能会很难生存。

But the restaurant industry is adjusting. Just like every single industry has to adjust. You've got to change in order to keep up all the times. So Darra, you talk about ads on Uber. Yes. And I have found this even with myself that when I'm searching for something today, I don't use Google anymore. I end up using publicity or opening or someone like that. Sure. If I want to build a brand tomorrow and I want to market and nobody is landing on Google ads, what happens to the world of ads? How does a brand get built? How do I get the word out that I've started this new t-shirt company? Well, I think that those surfaces for a brand to truly get built are there in terms of Instagram and TikTok and Facebook.

餐饮行业正在适应变化。就像每个行业都需要做出调整一样。你必须不断变化以跟上时代的发展。所以，Darra，你提到了Uber上的广告。是的。我发现即使是我自己，现在搜索东西时已经不使用Google了，而是使用类似Publicity或其他平台。如果我想在未来建立一个品牌并进行营销，但没有人点击Google广告，那么广告业会怎样？品牌如何建立？我如何让大家知道我新开的T恤公司？我认为，Instagram、TikTok和Facebook等平台提供了建立品牌的机会。

So the Google ad world, the Prophexity ad world, etc. are built for searches based on intent. And so I think that medium is about growing brands, not establishing or inventing brands. But I actually think that the surface area for brand new brands to grow and thrive, it's actually greater than ever has been. I'll tell you a little story of my niece. Willy Anna, she's incredible. She is studied humanities, loves fashion, loves golf, built a wanted to build a new golf brand, which is like fun, great, you know, fashionable clothes for women. She went on, she used mid-journey, taught herself how to use mid-journey, designed all of the designs on mid-journey, then went out and sourced her clothing with I think it's some Chinese players and Indian players and I think a couple of other places, got the clothing and now she has is building this Lillihomer brand and using TikTok and using Instagram as her distribution mechanisms and also going to like these traditional golf clubs, etc.

谷歌广告世界和Prophexity广告世界等都是为基于意图的搜索而设计的。因此，我认为这个媒介是为了品牌的成长，而不是品牌的建立或发明。但是我实际上认为，新品牌成长和繁荣的空间比以往任何时候都要大。我来给你讲一个关于我侄女的故事。Willy Anna，她非常了不起。她学习人文学科，热爱时尚，也喜欢高尔夫，想要创立一个全新的高尔夫品牌，提供有趣、极佳、时尚的女性服装。她自学了Midjourney的使用，通过Midjourney设计了所有的款式，然后从中国、印度等地找供应商，获取服装。现在，她正在打造这个名为Lillihomer的品牌，并使用TikTok和Instagram作为分销渠道，还去了一些传统的高尔夫俱乐部推广。

She could not have done that 10 years ago. So I actually think this is a magical time with the tools that you have at your arsenal and the manufacturing prowess all around the world at your disposal. It's a great time to build brands and I think the surfaces are there as long as you have a story, you've got a personality and you have a something distinctive to add. You're seeing social media still go to pieces. Oh yeah. Now, you know, would Lilliana have the, you know, what she do well on Google? No, but that's not the surface, you know, that's a surface, let's say, for Google Lemon, not her.

她在十年前不可能做到这一点。所以，我实际上认为这是一个充满魔力的时代，因为你拥有的工具和全球各地的制造能力为你所用。现在是建立品牌的好时机，我认为只要你有故事、有个性并且有独特的东西可以贡献，机会就在眼前。你会看到社交媒体仍在不断变化。哦，是的。然后，你可能会想，莉莉安娜在谷歌上表现得好吗？不，但那不是适合她的平台，可以说，那是适合“谷歌柠檬”的平台，而不是她的。

With the current president's immigration policies, do you think labor cost for your owners will go up significantly? The cost of labor will not go up directly because I think the vast majority of drivers, careers, etc., are legal in terms of their immigration status. But to some extent, we compete with the labor market in terms of the rates that our drivers want to make per hour. So I think an indirect way could have an effect on us, but I don't think it'll have a direct effect on us. Right. So Darah, I have a fund back home in India and I spent, yeah, a fund, I have a fund, yeah, like a private equity fund. Sure. And I was doing, it's been decent, I think. I spent a lot of the last couple of years buying into the transition into electric mobility. Interesting.

在现任总统的移民政策下，你认为对你们车主来说劳动力成本会显著上升吗？劳动力成本不会直接上涨，因为我认为绝大多数司机、职业等在移民身份方面都是合法的。但在某种程度上，我们在司机每小时希望赚取的薪酬方面与劳动力市场竞争。所以我认为这可能会间接对我们产生影响，但我不认为会有直接影响。对了，Darah，我在印度有一个基金，就是一个私募股权基金。最近几年，我投入了不少精力在转型为电动交通领域。很有趣。

So we got everything from electric scooters to trucks to buses. We even did an electric flying taxi investment recently. All over the world earn India specifically. A little bit all over the world, but more focused on that region. Yeah. Have you seen Chinese electric vehicles, by the way, they're incredible, right? They are unbelievable. It is the innovation coming out of the Chinese OEM and EV business. I've never seen anything like it. It's extraordinary. Why, though? Why are they so far ahead of everyone else now? Because of the competition. I think there's this belief, I'd say, from the US and a lot of Western countries, that China is a planned economy. And China is a planned economy from a strategic standpoint.

我们有各种电动交通工具，从电动滑板车到电动卡车和电动公交车。最近我们甚至还投资了一项电动空中出租车业务。我们的投资遍及全球，特别是印度。虽然是全球投资，但更专注于这一地区。顺便说一下，你见过中国的电动车吗？它们真是令人难以置信。中国的汽车制造商和电动车产业所展现出的创新力，我从未见过。真是非同凡响。为什么呢？为什么他们现在能领先于其他国家这么多？这是因为竞争。我想很多美国和西方国家的人们认为中国是一个计划经济。但从战略角度来看，中国的确是一个计划经济。

And for example, they want to get into manufacturing, EVs, etc. And so while that comes top down from the government, then actually the way these industries grow is every Chinese, significant city or province, etc. wants their own EV company to succeed. So in China now, there are over 100 OEMs in China, well over 100. And so there's this bottoms-up competition that's based on the top-down strategy that the government sets. So you have the kind of the best of both worlds, which is you have industrial policy. But then the winners aren't whose buddies were the president. Right. The winners are who wins in a brutal competitive environment. So the winners coming out of China, the Gilles of the world, the BYDs, these, they have been, they've been through the ringer. And so it really is survival of fittest and the innovation that we see and the speed of development there, it's extraordinary.

翻译如下：例如，他们想进入制造业、电动车等领域。因此，虽然这些是由政府自上而下推动的，但实际上这些行业的成长方式是每个中国的重要城市或省份都希望自己本地的电动车公司能够成功。因此在中国，目前有超过100家原始设备制造商（OEM），远超100家。所以这是一个自下而上的竞争模式，基于政府设定的自上而下的战略。这样你就有了两全其美的局面，一方面有产业政策，但另一方面，胜出者不是总统的亲信，而是在激烈竞争环境中脱颖而出的企业。因此，从中国走出来的赢家，像吉利、比亚迪这些公司，他们都是经过严格考验的。真正可谓是适者生存，他们的发展创新速度令人惊叹。

In a free market, can anyone compete in ketchup? No directives, nothing. How do you do this? In a free market, can anyone catch up to China? Chinese cities? Of course, people can catch up. I think that when you look at the Korean manufacturers, there's a ton of talent there. But I think if you look at my expectation as overall share, especially in the EV sector on a global basis of EVs is going to be, is going China's way for a while. But individual, innovative OEMs, they're going to do fine. So say I'm a scooter company in India. I don't have the scale that Chinese manufacturers or OEMs have today. How do I compete? Because they're building it a hundred of the scale that I am. I mean, listen, I don't know enough about the Indian industrial sector. But based on the innovation that I see out of India and the talent, it's got to be awake to compete.

在自由市场中，任何人都可以竞争番茄酱吗？没有指令，什么都没有。你该如何做到这一点呢？在自由市场中，任何人都可以追赶中国吗？中国的城市？当然，人们可以赶上。我认为，当你看看韩国制造商时，会发现那里人才济济。不过，我认为就整体市场份额，尤其是在全球电动车领域，中国将在相当长的一段时间内占据优势。但是，个别有创新能力的原始设备制造商（OEM）会表现得很好。如果我是印度的一家电动车公司，而我没有中国制造商或OEM那样的规模，我该如何竞争？因为他们的生产规模是我的一百倍。我不是很了解印度的工业部门，但基于我所看到的印度的创新和人才，我认为他们一定有能力去竞争。

What I see out of India, it's very, very special. I think that especially IT industries, India really has risen. And I think manufacturing is still somewhat nascent relative to the size and potential of India. But there's no doubt we'll get there. I had the thesis that all vehicles will be electric by X amount of time. Yeah, I think it's slow down. Why is that? Subsidies are going away. Yeah, subsidies are going away now. I do think that in Europe and China, it's definitely happening. I do think that it requires substantial investment over a long period of time in the infrastructure, charging infrastructure of cities.

我看到印度的发展，真的是非常特别。我认为在信息技术产业方面，印度确实已经崛起。而制造业相对于印度的规模和潜力来说仍然有些初步，但毫无疑问我们会达到目标。我曾经认为所有的车辆都会在一定时间内变为电动的，但我觉得这个进程放慢了。为什么呢？因为补贴正在取消。是的，现在补贴正在取消。我确实认为在欧洲和中国，这一变化正在发生。我认为这需要在城市的基础设施和充电设施上进行长时间的大量投资。

And so the societies that have continue to make way there, you are seeing the product, you're seeing EV penetration continue to improve. And within Uber, we are moving to EVs five times faster than the general public. So EVs inside of the Uber system are definitely increasing. And from my standpoint, I'm hoping that we continue to increase the penetration of EVs. And the next driver that you want, switching from a combustion engine to an EV, is actually Uber driver because average Uber driver is driving four to five times the mileage of the average driver. So we continue to push it. We're still quite committed to moving over to as much sustainable, both packaging for restaurants and EVs. But I would say that it's gone much harder over the past two years.

翻译如下：因此，那些继续在这一领域发展的社会，你会看到效果，看到电动汽车的普及在不断改善。在Uber内部，我们向电动汽车的转型速度比普通公众快五倍。在Uber系统中的电动汽车数量确实在增加。就我个人而言，我希望我们能继续增加电动汽车的普及率。下一个应该转换从燃油车到电动车的人，其实就是Uber司机，因为平均而言，Uber司机的驾驶里程是普通司机的四到五倍。所以我们会继续推动这件事。我们仍然非常致力于向更多可持续的方式转变，包括餐厅的包装和电动汽车。不过我得说，在过去两年这件事变得更加困难了。

So if I make the bet today by investing capital in the assumption that all vehicles will be EV, do you think it's still a fair bet? Yes, it's a better technology, but it's a question of, you might want to pick where you're investing. Give me some advice, where should I? Well, China now there's too much competition, but I think that they're still potentially Europe and I look at the investments going into the charging infrastructure of local cities. That's a signal that I will look for.

如果我今天下注，投资于假设所有车辆都会是电动车，你认为这仍然是一个合理的赌注吗？是的，电动车技术更好，但问题在于您可能要慎重选择投资的方向。能给我一些建议吗，我应该往哪里投呢？嗯，中国市场竞争太激烈了，但我认为欧洲还有潜力。我会关注当地城市在充电基础设施上的投资，这是一个我会注意的信号。

With everything you're building, Dara, funnily enough, I had to tell you this, there is a really popular wrestler in India with the name Darasi. Yes, I don't know if I should call you Darasi because that's how we call it in India. Dara has to be a little bit more. Okay, is he bigger than I am? I think so. I find that surprise. I've never met him, but I suspect he is much bigger than me too.

在你建构的一切中，Dara，说来有趣，我必须告诉你，在印度有一个非常受欢迎的摔跤手叫做Darasi。是的，我不知道是否应该叫你Darasi，因为我们在印度就是这么称呼的。Dara这个名字需要有点更多的东西。好吧，他比我更强壮吗？我觉得是的。这让我感到惊讶。我从来没有见过他，但我猜他也比我强壮很多。

With everything you're building, Dara, is there a super app coming? Is that the eventual outcome? I think that super app seemed to be particularly relevant in Asia and China, etc. They've been quite successful there. They've had less success in western markets. I don't know if we will get to what you would call a super app, but we certainly want to be a connected family of apps. If you go on Uber now, Uber Mobility, we have Uber Eats available to you and people are transacting billions of dollars of Uber Eats on the Uber Mobility app.

达拉，对于你正在构建的一切，是否会出现一个超级应用？这会是最终的结果吗？我认为超级应用在亚洲，尤其是中国，好像特别受欢迎，并且在那里很成功。但在西方市场的成功却较少。我不知道我们是否会达到所谓的超级应用，但我们肯定想成为一个连接紧密的应用家族。如果你现在使用优步，除了优步出行，你还可以使用优步外卖，人们通过优步出行应用进行着数十亿美元的优步外卖交易。

On Eats, obviously, we have Grocery, we have Retail, you'll know next time you need to travel adapter. We have, I think, ecosystem that is making it increasingly easier for you to work from surface to surface with a membership plan, Uber One, that gives you discounts on both. I absolutely know that we are building this ecosystem, that local OS of yours. Whether the physical manifestation is a super app or not, I don't know. My way of view is I'm going to let our engineers and our product folks innovate, come up with the next idea, and then we'll go one step in front of the other to get to that outcome.

在Eats平台上，我们显然提供了杂货和零售服务，比如当你下次需要旅行适配器时，能想到我们。我认为，我们的生态系统正在不断进步，能让你在使用套餐会员计划Uber One时享受双倍折扣，这使得你在不同平台之间工作更加容易。我完全相信我们正在构建这个生态系统，相当于你的本地操作系统。至于是否会有一个超级应用，我不确定。我的看法是，我会让我们的工程师和产品团队去创新、提出新点子，然后一步一个脚印地实现目标。

I was thinking about this and I did a little bit of research. Super apps tend to work in societies without as much rebellion in more – As much what? – Rebellion in pseudo-socialist societies. In more capitalistic ones, everybody wants to bet on the new guy, the young guy, the same David Goliath argument. I mean, I think there might be some of that, but there's also kind of phone storage and capabilities, having a separate app for all these different services may be a lot. I think in some of the more developed markets, people will pay for that last 10 or 20 percent of fine-tuning that maybe a super app doesn't. I don't know whether a society or a competition of a society or technology coming together. It definitely hasn't worked in the West, though.

我考虑过这个问题，并做了一些研究。超级应用程序往往在相对缺乏反抗精神的准社会主义社会中运作较好。在较资本主义的社会中，每个人都倾向于支持新人，就像大卫与歌利亚的故事一样。我觉得也许有这种因素，但也涉及手机存储和功能的问题，单独为不同服务使用不同的应用程序可能会占用很多空间。我认为在一些较发达的市场，人们愿意为最后10%到20%的精细调整买单，而这可能是超级应用做不到的。我不知道这是否与一个社会的竞争或技术的结合有关。但无论如何，这在西方的确没有成功。

Last question, Dara. You have been a successful investment banker, a two-time CEO, Expedia, Uber, sometimes joining Midway and really scaling the company. If you were me, a 20-year-old boy or girl in India and you had to start a fresh, what would you build today and who would you build it with? Who would your profound heavy? So, I always think people should know their own limits. I am not a startup person. That's not my skill. I'm a scale person. I'm not the person to kind of start with an idea of fresh. And I have enormous respect for those rebels who think that they can do it on their own.

最后一个问题，达拉。你曾是一位成功的投资银行家，担任过两次CEO，包括在Expedia和Uber的任职，有时会在公司中途加入并大力扩展公司规模。如果你是我，一个20岁的印度年轻人，现在要从头开始，你会建什么？你会和谁一起建？你会寻找什么样的重要伙伴？我一直认为人们应该了解自己的局限。我并不是一个创业型的人，这不是我的特长。我擅长的是扩大和发展，而不是从零开始构想点子。我对那些认为自己可以独自完成创业的反叛者充满了无比的敬意。

My advice would be, I've always said when I give career advice to people is, I look for three things. One is, I want to work for people who I like and I can learn from. Second is, I want to go to a place where I as an individual can make a difference. And third, I want to make a difference at a place that matters in the world, is making a difference in the world. And actually, that's why I've invested in banking for me. Great people. I thought I was pretty good. But it wasn't, I didn't get that jazz. I wasn't changing the world. And so then when I saw Barry, I'm like, great.

我的建议是，当我给别人提供职业建议时，总是说我看重三件事。首先，我希望能和我喜欢且能向其学习的人一起工作。第二，我希望自己所在的地方能让我这个个体有所作为。第三，我希望我能在一个对世界有重要影响的地方做出贡献。实际上，这也是我之前投入银行业的原因。那里有很棒的人。我以为自己还不错，但我并没有感到激动，因为我没有在改变世界。所以，当我看到Barry时，我觉得太好了。

I don't want to work for him. And we were really on this path of the changing of the world and hopefully helped it with travel as well. And I was really, I thought I was going to run Expedia for as long as Barry would help me. But then for me, Uber, the thing that really excited me was how important Uber was to the world. And the difference, hopefully, that I could make as a CEO. I think a lot of young people that think too much about how much money they're going to make or this or that, it's like work for people who you love or respect, make a difference and try to work at a place that's making a difference.

我不想为他工作。我们本来是在改变世界的道路上，希望通过旅行也能有所帮助。我以为我会在Barry的支持下长期管理Expedia。但是，Uber真正让我感到兴奋的是，它对世界的重要性，以及作为CEO我希望能够带来的改变。我认为，许多年轻人过多地考虑能挣多少钱，而没有关注到：应该为你所爱或尊重的人工作，为一个能够产生积极影响的地方努力，尽力去改变世界。

And the rest, they'll scare themselves. Thank you, Sarah. This was a lot of fun. Thank you. Hopefully, we do it again sometimes. I think that'd be great. Thank you. How did you hold your hand? I was at camp with my kids and my son Hugo is a keeper and I used to be a keeper in high school as well. So I thought it was a good idea to to play keeper against him and all the other camp counselors and I got carried away in a dog to to making proud. So I took this one from my boy.

剩下的，他们会自己吓唬自己。谢谢你，Sarah。这次活动真的很有趣。谢谢你。希望我们以后还能再来一次。我觉得那会很棒。谢谢你。你的手怎么伤的？我当时和我的孩子们一起在夏令营，我的儿子Hugo是个守门员，而我在高中时也曾是守门员。所以我觉得和他以及其他夏令营的辅导员们一起守门是个不错的主意。为了让他感到骄傲，我有些投入过度了，所以我把这个算作给我儿子的小礼物。