Mercado Libre: 18k engineers, 30k deploys a day, & their own fleet of planes | Sebastian Barrios
发布时间 2025-06-08 11:01:28 来源
摘要
Sebastian Barrios was the longtime head of product and engineering at Mercado Libre, the largest company in Latin ...
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中英文字稿 
Steve Jobs called you. One day I'm walking in the street and I get a phone and a blocked number. I was super young by the way at the time I think I was like 16. I pick up, I tell you well, hi it's fashion, this is Steve from Apple. I need to talk to you about your app. We're not going to be able to have it on the app store. I actually pushed back a little bit until I read all the rules of the app store and he told me check again because we just added a new rule.
史蒂夫·乔布斯给你打了电话。有一天，我在街上走，接到一个电话，号码是隐藏的。当时我还很年轻，大概只有16岁。我接起电话，对方说：“你好，我是史蒂夫，来自苹果。我需要跟你谈谈关于你的应用程序。我们无法在应用商店上架你的应用。”我其实有些抗拒，直到我阅读了应用商店的所有规则，他告诉我再检查一遍，因为他们刚刚添加了一条新规则。
At 19 you built an app that became the number one app in 19 countries. It absolutely exploded. I actually got contacted by a lot of different companies like Multinational's, governments, saying like well you have the number one app. We want you to build an app for us. You oversee something like 18,000 developers. We do around 30,000 deployments per day. We deliver over 5 million packages per day. You're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product.
在你19岁的时候，你开发了一款应用，这款应用在19个国家成为了第一名，迅速走红。实际上，我收到了许多不同公司的联系，包括跨国公司和政府，他们说：“你有了排名第一的应用，我们希望你也为我们开发一个。” 你管理着大约18,000名开发者，每天进行大约30,000次的部署，每天交付超过500万个包裹。你很注重不在工程和产品之间设置大的区分。
It's hard to separate where engineering stops and product begins and we don't feel like just having a title should determine who was the owner. Is there anything else that might be helpful for folks either about how you operate as a human morning routine. We were raised in a very intensely independent way. My mother, mainly the analogy that she used is that she wanted to train us like spice. She would drop us in the middle of the city, Mexico City. We like you have to get back home. You have to like know public transit or ask someone for help and basically it solves problems. Just go and get things done.
很难明确划分工程和产品的界限，我们认为仅仅依靠头衔来决定谁是负责人是不合适的。是否有其他能帮助大家了解你日常操作方式的事情，比如你的早晨习惯？我们从小就被培养得非常独立。我的母亲常用的比喻是，她希望像训练香料那样训练我们。她会把我们放到墨西哥城的市中心，然后要求我们自己找到回家的路。我们必须学会使用公共交通，或请求他人的帮助，从而解决问题，完成任务。
Today my guest is Sebastian Bios. Sebas as most people know him is currently senior vice president of engineering at Roblox. He's also a long time head of product in engineering at Mercado Libre. Mercado Libre might be the biggest and most interesting company that you have never heard of and Sebas might also be the most interesting product leader that you've never heard of. Mercado Libre is currently the most valuable company in Latin America.
今天，我的嘉宾是塞巴斯蒂安·比奥斯。多数人称他为塞巴斯。目前，他是Roblox的工程高级副总裁。他也是美卡多利布雷长时间担任产品工程总监。美卡多利布雷可能是你从未听说过的最大且最有趣的公司，而塞巴斯也可能是你未曾听闻过的最有趣的产品领导者。目前，美卡多利布雷是拉丁美洲市值最高的公司。
Value did over $100 billion dollars which also makes them one of the 150 most valuable companies on the planet. They also have one of the largest engineering teams on the planet with over 18,000 engineers operating in 18 countries. They deploy an unprecedented 30,000 times a day. The company owns their own trucks and planes. They deliver over 5 million packages a day. At one point, eBay tried to acquire them. They ended up acquiring PayPal instead. Now they are larger than both eBay and PayPal combined.
这家公司的市值超过1000亿美元，使其跻身全球最有价值公司前150名。此外，他们拥有全球最大之一的工程团队，超过18000名工程师在18个国家工作。他们每天进行高达3万次的部署操作。公司拥有自己的卡车和飞机，每天交付超过500万个包裹。曾经，eBay想要收购这家公司，但最终只收购了PayPal。现在，这家公司的规模已经超过了eBay和PayPal的总和。
Also just wait till you hear the stories about Sebas's early life, including how his mom trained him like a spy. Why he only drinks water, no coffee or tea or juice, why he doesn't listen to music. And also why Steve Jobs personally called him when he was 17 years old telling him that they are booting his app from the app store and forever changing the app store policies as a result. A huge thank you to Christopher Lazarus, Oscar Mullin and Farhan Thauer for suggesting topics for this conversation.
等你听到关于Sebas早年生活的故事时，肯定会大吃一惊。他的母亲像训练间谍一样训练他，为什么他只喝水，不喝咖啡、茶或果汁，为什么他不听音乐。此外，还要听听为什么史蒂夫·乔布斯在他17岁时亲自打电话给他说，他们将把他的应用程序从应用商店下架，并因此永久改变了应用商店的政策。非常感谢Christopher Lazarus、Oscar Mullin和Farhan Thauer为这次谈话建议的话题。
If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Bolt, Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, Granola and more. Check it out at Lenny's newsletter.com and click bundle. With that, I bring you Sebastian Fodios.
如果您喜欢这个播客，别忘了在您喜欢的播客应用或YouTube上订阅和关注。此外，如果您成为我新闻通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得Bolt、Linear、Superhuman、Notion、Perplexity、Granola等一年的免费使用资格。请访问Lenny's newsletter.com并点击"bundle"查看。现在，请欢迎Sebastian Fodios。
This episode is brought to you by Merge. Product leaders, yes like you, cringe when they hear the word integration. They're not fun for you to scope, build, launch or maintain. And integrations probably aren't what led you to product work in the first place. Lucky for you, the folks at Merge are obsessed with integrations. Their single API helps SaaS companies launch over 200 product integrations in weeks, not quarters. Think of Merge like PLAD, but for everything B2B SaaS, organizations like Ramp, Drauta and Electric use Merge to access their customers' accounting data to reconcile bill payments, file storage data to create searchable databases in their product, or HRIS data to auto-provision and deeper vision access for their customers' employees.
本集由Merge赞助。产品负责人，就像你，当听到“集成”这个词时可能会感到不舒服。对于你来说，计划、构建、发布和维护集成都不是什么有趣的事。而且，集成工作可能也不是让你最初投身于产品工作的原因。幸运的是，Merge团队对集成充满热情。他们提供的单一API帮助SaaS公司在几周内推出超过200种产品集成，而不是几个月。可以把Merge想成是B2B SaaS领域中的PLAD，各类组织如Ramp、Drauta和Electric使用Merge来访问客户的会计数据，以便结算账单支付，或访问存储数据来创建可搜索的产品数据库，或者使用HRIS数据为客户的员工自动提供和深化权限访问。
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Sebbas, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. I'm super happy to be here. Thank you for hosting me. This is the first time that you're doing a major, let's call it major podcast. I think you can call it major podcast. You're going to be proud of what you've done. I appreciate that. Let me just start with a stat that I think is going to blow a lot of people's minds. You oversee something like 18,000 developers. Is that right? Is that the right number? That is the right number. 18,000 and climbing. I just put a specify that they don't report all directly to me. We can talk about how the company structure, but yes, I lead the technology team that basically powers all of what they do.
塞巴斯，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎参与这次播客。我也非常高兴能够参与，谢谢你邀请我。这是你第一次参与一个我们称之为大型的播客，我觉得你可以这样称呼它。你应该为你所做的一切感到自豪。我很感激。让我先说一个我认为会让很多人震惊的数据，你管理着大约18,000名开发者，对吗？这个数字正确吗？是的，这个数字是正确的，确实有18,000名，并且还在增加。我需要说明的是，他们并不是都直接向我汇报。我们可以谈谈公司的结构，但没错，我领导着支撑他们所有工作的技术团队。
I think essentially you guys are in the top 10 of most engineers at a company. You're above Salesforce and TikTok and Vitya, Adobe, Uber, OpenAI. That's right. I think you have to go into big tech or huge banks to get a larger number. Okay. A lot of people listening to this have not heard of Mercado Libre. A lot of listeners in the US, other parts of the country outside of Latin America. Give us just like a brief explanation of what does Mercado Libre do. Then give us a few more stats that will blow people's minds to the scale of this business at this point. Happy to. Happy to. You can think of us as a completely vertically integrated e-commerce marketplace. Oh, that means buying and selling any product you can think of.
我认为，基本上你们公司在员工数量上位列前十，比Salesforce、TikTok、Vitya、Adobe、Uber、OpenAI都要多。没错。要找到员工更多的公司，可能只有那些大型科技公司或巨型银行了。很多听众可能没听说过Mercado Libre，尤其是美国或拉丁美洲以外地区的听众。请简单介绍一下Mercado Libre的业务，然后再给我们一些数据，让大家惊叹于这家公司的规模。好的，乐意介绍。你可以把我们看作是一个完全垂直整合的电商平台。也就是说，我们的业务涵盖你能想到的所有商品的买卖。
The vertically integrated part means we have our own distribution network. We have our own airplanes. We have our own trucks. We have to do all the technology and coordination behind that. But even or in addition to that, we also have a very large fintech operation. The two sides of the business are actually almost the same size. We also offer accounts. We offer credit cards. We offer loans. All of that are integrated with each other into what we call an ecosystem. Okay. I saw a stat that you guys plan to have over 100,000 employees by the end of this year. That's right. There's a lot of operations that need to happen for all those packages to be delivered. You asked about some fund statistics specifically with deliveries.
纵向整合的部分意味着我们拥有自己的配送网络。我们有自己的飞机和卡车。我们需要在背后进行所有的技术支持和协调。不仅如此，我们还有一个非常大的金融科技业务。这两个业务板块的规模几乎相同。我们还提供账户、信用卡和贷款服务。所有这些都是整合到我们称之为生态系统的一部分。我看到一项统计数据显示，你们计划在今年年底之前拥有超过10万名员工。是的，为了将所有包裹送达，需要进行大量的运营。你问到了一些关于配送的具体数据。
We deliver over 5 million packages per day or items. So you visit most of Latin America. We have some very cool visualizations where if you track the routes of our trucks and delivery vans and what not, you paint a picture of Latin America, which is pretty fun. We obviously operate in major cities, but we have very large capillarity on and reach all the different corners of Latin America. Okay. A couple more stats that you didn't mention. You guys are valued over $100 billion. It's a large company. We don't focus on the stock price that much. But yes, $100 billion. Even more so now, it depends on how the market's feeling and what the global news are. But yes, one of the top valued companies on the planet.
我们每天送达超过500万个包裹或物品。因此，您可以在大部分的拉丁美洲地区看到我们的身影。我们有一些非常酷的可视化图表，比如跟踪我们的卡车和送货车的路线时，它们会描绘出一幅拉丁美洲的地图，非常有趣。我们当然在主要城市运营，但也覆盖到了拉丁美洲的各个角落，网络非常广泛。还有几个统计数据您没有提到。我们的公司市值超过1000亿美元，是一家大型公司。我们不是特别关注股票价格，但确实市值超过1000亿美元。而这也取决于市场情绪和全球新闻的影响。但可以确认的是，我们是全球最有价值的公司之一。
We have around 100 million users, customers, sellers, people interacting in the platform. As you mentioned, one of the larger engineering and product building teams on the planet. Hopefully, people now get a sense of holy shit. There's a lot to learn here. There's kind of two buckets to the way I want to purchase conversation. One is just really unique, interesting ways you all operate and how you scale business like this, how you build product. The other is just you as a human. It's really interesting. There's a lot of stories I've heard that I want to talk about, but I'm going to save that for next.
我们有大约一亿用户，包括顾客、卖家和在平台上互动的人。正如你提到的，这是世界上较大的工程和产品开发团队之一。希望现在大家能感受到一些震撼：这里有很多可以学习的内容。我想通过两个方面来展开对话。一个是你们独特、有趣的运营方式，以及如何扩大这样规模的业务，如何开发产品。另一个则是关于你个人的故事，这也非常有趣。我听说了很多关于你的故事，想谈谈这些，但我会留到下次再聊。
Let's start with how you all operate. So I talked to a lot of people that work with you that work with Ricardo Libre. One of the themes that came up again and again is you're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product. It's essentially one team for you guys. Talk about just how that works specifically, just like what does that mean and why that's so important to you. For me and for Ricardo Libre, it's hard to separate where engineering stops and product begins. We do have a small product organization. There are people in medical here that have the product manager title, but the ratio is much smaller than any other tech company that you would think of.
让我们从你们的运作方式开始。我和许多与你们以及Ricardo Libre合作的人谈过。一个反复出现的主题是，你们非常注重不在工程和产品之间制造明显的区别。对你们来说，这基本上就是一个团队。具体来说，这种模式是如何运作的呢？这意味着什么，以及为什么对你们如此重要。对我和Ricardo Libre来说，很难分清工程的终点和产品的起点。我们确实有一个精简的产品组织。在这里，有一些人拥有产品经理的头衔，但与其他科技公司相比，这个比例要小得多。
We think about it as like that. We're not going to determine who's going to own the product just based on the title. It's going to be based on who's the best for that role. It turns out that for us and the majority of the cases, it's the engineering leaders, it's the tech leaders, the people that can understand what's technically possible and they're also good. What are the business needs, what are the user needs, what are the users doing, how am I going to measure that and combine that into a single role? To make this even clear, you have 18,000 ish developers. How many people have the PM title? I think it's less than 1,000. I think that would make 5% of other companies. Maybe you have 10, 20, 30%, even more of other companies.
我们这样看待这个问题：我们不会只根据职位头衔来决定谁拥有产品的所有权，而是基于谁最适合这个角色。对于我们来说，大多数情况下，这些人是工程领导者和技术领导者，即那些能够理解技术上可行性的人，同时也擅长了解业务需求、用户需求、用户行为，并把这些因素结合到一个角色中的人。为了更清楚地说明这一点，我们有大约18,000名开发人员。那么有多少人拥有产品经理的头衔呢？我认为不到1,000人。在其他公司中，这个比例可能是5%，而在其他公司中可能多达10%、20%、30%甚至更多。
Two follow ups here. One is just why do you think operating this way is more effective in the way in your business? Do you need to hire engineers in a different way for them to succeed in this way where they're basically playing the PM role? This works because you want to be as close to the problem as possible and that probably works being as close to the technology as possible, being as close to the user as possible. You can have it with two different people that have to interact and coordinate and that obviously works as well.
这里有两个后续问题。首先，为什么您认为以这种方式运作在您的业务中更有效？对于工程师在这种情况下基本扮演产品经理的角色，您是否需要用不同的方式来招聘他们以便取得成功？这种方式有效，因为您希望尽可能靠近问题，同时也尽可能靠近技术和用户。也可以有两个不同的人来互动和协调，显然这种方式也有效。
I'm not saying this is the only way to do it. Clearly, there are a lot more examples. Maybe we are actually the exception and it would be hard to replicate anywhere else. But if you're able to have that whole context in a single mind in a single person that can then deliver that vision to the team, I think it leads to great products that users are going to love and enjoy. In terms of hiring, we do, in the interview process, test for product skills, but we mainly do test for engineering skills. I think it's worth being honest about, we have a strong bias for engineering, for being technical, for being deep into the details.
我并不是说这就是唯一的方法。显然，还有很多其他的例子。也许我们实际上是个例，在别的地方很难复制。但如果你能把整体背景融入一个人的脑海，然后这个人将愿景传达给团队，我认为这会带来用户喜爱并愉悦的优质产品。在招聘方面，我们在面试过程中确实会测试产品技能，但主要侧重于工程技能。我觉得值得坦诚地说，我们对工程、技术能力以及对细节的深入了解有很强的偏好。
There's not a lot of tolerance for being in a meeting and getting asked the questions like, well, I need to check with this person to understand the details because you know, I'm not sure what technology we're using. That would not fly. So there's a bias towards the tech side of it. And then once you're inside, I'll probably get to know you a lot more and it'll be very clear if you have the product inclination or if you should, if you would be more comfortable with the engineering. What's really interesting about this is a lot of companies start with no pms and they're like, wait, never any pms. We're just going to be engineers, leading products, give you amazing.
在会议中，大家对这样的问题没有太多的耐心，比如：“我需要跟某人确认一下细节，因为我不太清楚我们使用的是什么技术。” 这样的回答是不被接受的。因此，在技术方面有很强的偏向性。一旦你进入团队，我可能会更了解你，并且很容易判断你是更适合产品方向还是工程方向。 有趣的是，很多公司一开始并没有产品经理（PM），他们觉得从来不需要产品经理，认为只让工程师来领导产品开发就够了，这样会取得很好的效果。
And then usually, eventually, people, these engineers realize, I don't want to be doing all this bullshit pm work. Like, I just want to code, I want to build, what are my meetings all day, writing specs. And it's interesting. You guys have scaled to a hundred billion dollar market cap, 18,000 people on the product team developers. And still, you're working this way. It's really rare. What do you think has allowed you to operate this way at this scale that maybe other companies can't?
通常，最终这些工程师会意识到，他们不想一直从事这些繁琐的项目管理工作。他们只想编程和构建产品，而不是整天开会、写文档。这很有趣。你们的公司已经扩展到一千亿美元的市值，有一万八千名产品团队开发人员，依然以这种方式工作。这真的很少见。你认为是什么让你们能够在这个规模上以这种方式运作，而其他公司可能做不到呢？
Yeah, I think it's also a top-down thing where a lot of the leadership is very technical. They're very into the product. They're also very into the business, into the numbers, into the details. It's amazing to be on the sea level meetings and the kind of questions, the kind of level of attention. I know founder mode is now like a term that's there, but the company has been operating like that for a while.
是的，我觉得这也是一种自上而下的现象，很多领导层都是技术背景出身。他们非常专注于产品，同时也非常关心业务、数字和细节。在参与高层会议时，会感受到他们提出的问题和关注的深度，这让人非常惊叹。我知道“创始人模式”现在已经成了一个流行词，但这家公司早就以这种方式运作了。
No, where discussions will even go as deep as, okay, we're using that copy. That's way too many words. It's not clear. Hey, what was this pixel here where we could use that space for something a lot more useful. And these are literally conversations at the sea level, asking, okay, how does this work for users? When you present a feature, and here I'm going to stay or type other companies, no, it might not be the case, but my understanding is, anytime is okay, how much revenue can we get from this new feature, or what's the metric that's going to move?
不，这些讨论甚至会深入到这样的问题，比如：我们正在使用那段文字。太多字了，不够清晰。嘿，这个像素是用来干什么的？我们能不能用这块空间做更有用的事情。这些真的都是高层管理人员的对话，他们会问，这对用户来说如何运作？当你展示一个新功能时，我会去看看其他公司，虽然不一定都是这种情况，但据我了解，每次都会考虑，我们能从这个新功能中获得多少收入，或者哪个指标会有所提升。
Marcus, our CEO, the first question is always, okay, how's the user going to experience this? Show me the flow, show me the user experience, are they understanding it, show me the metrics that people are actually liking what we're doing, putting the users before the revenue, obviously turns into revenue in the future, the long term, which is what you're looking for. So again, I think the top down version of that, maintaining the culture and being able to select for the top of the top talent in a whole region, no, in multiple countries, I think it's what allowed that to happen.
我们的首席执行官Marcus总是先问的第一个问题就是，好，用户将如何体验这一切？给我展示一下流程，展示一下用户体验，他们能理解吗？给我看看数据，看看人们是否真的喜欢我们正在做的事情。把用户放在收入之前，这显然会在未来长期转化为收入，这是我们所期望的。所以，我认为从上到下的这种方式，保持这种文化，并能够在整个地区甚至多个国家中挑选出顶尖的人才，这就是促成这一切发生的原因。
And the business, you said, there's a lot of technology, right? You need to do the routing for all the buses, the trucks, the planes, the distribution centers, routing for picking items within the distribution centers, risk, content moderation, search, robotics, there's a really long list of really fun initiatives that we're working on. They're all very technical and turn into value for our users. I can't help but ask, how does AI impact this way of working where engineers are doing more and more of the PM work? Is that just accelerating that further? Is there anything can share by just how AI is changing the way we operate? It's a great question because you probably always hear from the other side known, like, okay, now people who are more product oriented are not going to need engineers as much.
你提到，业务中涉及大量技术，对吧？你需要为所有的公交车、卡车、飞机和分销中心进行线路规划，还要规划如何在分销中心内挑选物品，处理风险、内容审核、搜索、机器人等问题。我们正在进行的一系列项目都非常技术化，并能为用户带来价值。我忍不住想问，人工智能对这种工作方式有何影响？工程师在做越来越多的产品经理工作，这是否加速了这个过程？能否分享一下人工智能如何改变我们的操作方式？这是个很好的问题，因为你可能总会听到另一种说法，比如，对产品导向型的人来说，可能不再需要那么多工程师了。
So for us, the change is accelerating what people can do on both sides. I don't think there's any competition. And again, we don't see a line between product and engineering as strongly as other companies. So I'm extremely happy when someone who's more product oriented comes in and can actually start developing more stuff on their own, even just demos. No, I think, we can talk about the AI hype a little bit in the future. But it's definitely great to make demos, to actually turn ideas into something that you can touch, something that you can see, designs, and seeing a lot more people enable to do that, I think, is just accelerating everything we do.
对我们来说，这种变化正在加速两方面人们的能力提升。我认为这没有任何竞争。同样地，我们不像其他公司那样强烈地将产品和工程区分开。因此，我非常高兴那些更偏向产品的人可以进来，并能够开始自己开发更多的东西，甚至只是一些演示。我觉得我们可以稍后再讨论一下人工智能的热潮。但能够制作演示、将想法变成可以触摸和看到的东西、设计，以及看到越来越多的人有能力做到这一点，我认为这正在加速我们所做的一切。
On the actual coding side, of course, it started as like advanced autocomplete and now you have agentic frameworks and cursor and windsurf, to open the AI, just made an acquisition. Clearly, it's sort of like a big shift in the way we develop technology. It's not at the point where it can sort of like do anything and everything and security, compliance, all the different things that go around actually turning a demo or a product into something that's going to reach the production or the market takes time. But I'll say we're taking it even further. We always like to think in terms of platforms. It's one of the reasons why we've been able to scale the team so much.
在实际编码方面，当然，一开始就像是高级自动填充，现在你有了自主框架、Cursor 和 Windsurf 等工具，而 OpenAI 刚刚进行了收购。这显然标志着我们开发技术方式的一次重大转变。虽然目前它还没有达到可以完全独立做任何事情的程度，安全性、合规性以及把一个演示或产品转化为能够投产或进入市场的完整产品仍然需要时间。但我想说，我们正在把这推向更远的地方。我们总是喜欢从平台的角度来思考，这也是为什么我们能够显著扩展团队的原因之一。
We have a great internal development platform that takes care of a lot of scaling, security, building, testing, compliance, so developers and teams can just focus on adding value. And we're taking the same approach with AI. We developed an internal platform called Verdi that basically abstracts away a lot of the complexities around, okay, where are you going to get the data? How's it going to be authorized? And that and it's all has been evolving as the models become more capable. Now you can have more, it's called agents, agentic frameworks, things taking action, taking over longer tasks.
我们有一个非常出色的内部开发平台，负责处理大量的扩展、安全性、构建、测试和合规性方面的工作，因此开发人员和团队可以专注于创造价值。我们在人工智能领域采用了同样的方法。我们开发了一个名为Verdi的内部平台，基本上解决了很多复杂问题，比如数据从哪里来、如何授权等等。随着模型的能力不断提升，这个平台也在不断发展。现在，您可以使用更多所谓的代理、代理框架，这些工具能够执行行动并接管更长时间的任务。
And we're seeing great results with skipping code entirely. Now I think it's a fun one where the prompt or what you actually want a product to do is everything you tell a system. We came up with ways to use our existing code. So it's not like there's no code. And then you have what I'm talking about. But we basically can extract the functionality of every single one of our microservices. And then we can have agents build and use different parts of different services and create new features for users and to end with a UI. So that's something that is still experimental, obviously. But it's happening and it's just going to accelerate as the models get better.
我们发现完全跳过编写代码能够取得很好的效果。现在我觉得这很有趣，比如你只需告诉系统你想要产品做什么，这就是一切。我们找到了一些方法来利用现有的代码，因此并不是没有代码。我们可以提取每个微服务的功能，然后就让人工智能代理组合使用不同服务的不同部分，为用户创建新的功能，并最终通过用户界面呈现出来。虽然这仍处于实验阶段，但随着模型的不断优化，这一过程将加速发展。
So we literally have things that are taking existing code. So it's not like code doesn't exist, but you don't have to write any new code. There's a lot of functionality that we already have on the platform. And you can combine different parts of it and turn it into a new feature or product without any intervention from any code, extra code. That is very cool. So essentially, I have all these APIs and microservices. And your agents can just use what it already exists to add new features. Exactly. And you extended a little more. You could even reach a point where like UIs and apps are sort of like entirely generated.
因此，我们实际上有一些东西是在利用现有的代码。这并不是说代码不存在，而是说你不需要编写任何新的代码。在平台上我们已经具备了很多功能。你可以将这些不同的部分组合在一起，进而无需任何额外的代码干预，就能将其变成一个新功能或产品。这太酷了。基本上，我拥有所有这些API和微服务，而且你的代理可以直接使用现有的功能来添加新功能。完全正确。如果再扩展一点，甚至可以达到一个阶段，即用户界面和应用程序可以完全自动生成。
Now we're just like, okay, these are like all the things that you can do inside the Metagonal E-Rage, you can buy stuff, you can get a credit card, you can move money around, and then have like a completely personalized UI for user predicting what are you going to do next. And then just having that as a main screen, maybe you have to like other screens, obviously, that I like to do everything. But it's an exciting feature. I think we're going to see a lot more automated UI. Wow. Okay. I'm going to try to resist just making every conversation by AI. So let's leave that aside and maybe we'll come back to it.
现在我们就觉得，好吧，这些就是你在Metagonal E-Rage中可以做的所有事情：你可以购买东西，可以办信用卡，可以进行资金流动，然后可以拥有一个完全个性化的用户界面，来预测你下一步会做什么。然后把这个作为主界面，当然你可能还需要其他界面来完成所有操作。但这确实是一个令人兴奋的功能。我觉得我们将会看到更多自动化的用户界面。哇。我会努力不把每个对话都交给AI处理。让我们暂且不谈AI，也许之后我们可以回到这个话题。
But let's zoom out a little bit. And I want to hear other key or very unique ways of working that you have figured out that allow you to operate this team of 18,000 developers and continue to ship great product. So if you have to pick like, I don't know, two or three key ways of working, what would those be? One big one, it's a cliche, but it's true, is the fear of failure. We actually empower our teams to make mistakes. Like, no, it's going to get fired for believing something that didn't work in the sense that maybe the market was not ready or we had the wrong idea on where I have to implement. Obviously, there's a lot less tolerance for a bad quality and it failed because the product wasn't good or is going offline or those kinds of failures are much less tolerated. But we do encourage our teams to take a lot of risks on what we should actually be working on.
让我们稍微放远一点。我想听听你们在带领这支由18000名开发人员组成的团队、并持续推出优秀产品时所找到的其他关键方法或独特的工作方式。如果你必须选择两到三个关键的工作方式，那会是什么呢？其中一个比较大的方面，虽然很俗套，但确实很重要，就是对失败的恐惧。我们实际上鼓励团队大胆尝试，即使出现错误也没有关系。比如，可能是因为市场尚未准备好，或者我们对应该实施的方向有误，但这并不会导致被解雇。显然，对于质量差导致的失败，比如产品不够好或出现宕机等情况，我们的容忍度会低得多。但我们确实鼓励团队在选择项目上多冒险。
We also let them be very independent. I think it goes hand in hand. So there, for example, we don't operate with OKRs where everything just like trickles down into what every team is supposed to do. We have very high level objectives on where we want the company to be. And they're not even that long-term. It's not like we have a 10-year plan and I think in a market that's changing so much. Even before AI, I know this is an extremely competitive market with very dynamic regulations in multiple countries. So it's hard to say like, OK, this is a plan for 10 years and these are the OKRs and now everyone go into your teams and implement the specific features that are going to point to that. The way we run it is these are the objectives. These are maybe some of the new businesses or areas where we would like to explore. But everything else is up to the teams.
我们也让他们非常独立。我认为这两者是密切相关的。比如说，我们不会使用OKR（目标和关键成果）那种一层层下达给每个团队具体任务的方法。我们有关于公司未来发展的高层级目标，但这些目标也不是很长远的规划。我们并没有一个十年计划，特别是在这样一个变化如此快速的市场里，这种规划更显不切实际。即便是在AI出现之前，我就知道这是一个竞争激烈的市场，各个国家的法规也非常动态。所以很难制定一个十年计划，说“这就是我们的长期目标，然后大家按照这个方向去研发具体的功能”。我们的方法是制定一些目标，也许还有一些我们想探索的新业务或新领域，但具体的执行则由各团队自主决定。
We just cascade the main vision of where the company is going. And there's a lot of another cliche freedom and responsibility, something like OKR. Do whatever, literally, whatever you think is best for our users, for the company, for what we want to accomplish. There's going to be tight feedback loops on that to also make sure everyone's pointing in the same direction. But you can't sort of like the telling 18,000 people exactly what they should be working on every day and expect that to work. So there's a fun combination of what can you delegate, what can you not delegate. We're also I think very hands-on wherever we can be. So we can't be on every single detail. But in the projects that we feel are most important, the whole leadership team goes extremely deep now into working with the team, understanding what the restrictions are, what's working, what's not working, and pushing the team forward. So I think that's probably the main one.
我们只是传达公司未来发展的主要愿景。此外，还有一些老生常谈的自由与责任，比如 OKR（目标与关键成果）。你可以做任何事情，真的，任何你认为对用户、对公司、对我们想达成的目标最好的事情。我们会有紧密的反馈循环，以确保每个人都朝着同一个方向努力。但是，你不能指望所有18,000名员工每天都严格按照指令工作并期望取得良好效果。因此，我们需要巧妙地平衡哪些工作应该授予他人负责，哪些工作不能。我们也会尽可能地亲力亲为。虽然不能关注每一个细节，但在我们认为最重要的项目中，整个领导团队会非常深入地与团队合作，了解限制因素是什么，哪些有效，哪些无效，并推动团队向前发展。我认为这可能是最重要的一点。
We also talked about putting users before revenue. Oh, I think that's another big one that we've liked. And there's another tricky aspect of it, because life is trade-offs. So we say, OK, let's be very distributed and what the teams are going to be working on. Then you can end up with a product that has great parts. But once you put them all together, it's horrible and it sucks. People don't like it. So you also need a mix of, OK, this is the holistic vision. This is what we want to accomplish. This is what probably the end product is going to look like. And then you can build the features. And there's no one rule that basically applies to all projects. There are times where you can have more freedom. There are times where you do require a lot more sort of one vision of where things are going.
我们也讨论了要将用户放在收益之前。我认为这是我们非常看重的一点。这其中还有一个复杂的方面，因为生活充满了权衡。所以我们说，好吧，让各个团队各自分散地开展工作。这样可能会出现一个各部分都很出色的产品，但当你把这些部分组合在一起时，整体效果却很糟糕，人们不喜欢。因此，你还需要一个整体的愿景，就是说清楚我们想要实现什么目标，以及最终产品可能是什么样子的。然后你可以在这个基础上开发功能。不过，没有一条规则可以适用于所有项目。有时候可以给予更多的自由，而有时候则需要一个更为统一的愿景来指导方向。
Something that's another important one, what else we like to observe users, more than talk to users. You always hear talk to users, listen to users. They're going to tell you what they want, what they need. That works sometimes. We've seen that what works best is just to observe them, whether that's literally like user research sessions and just seeing what people are doing with the product. I'm sure this has happened to you and to many people that listen to your show and you cringe at all the assumptions that are being crushed before your eyes as someone types in their email and their name in the same field because of your field set email, comma, name. Also, you could either have the email or the user name and people say, well, I'll write both because that's what they're asking me. So a lot of examples like this where observing users is extremely valuable. I think those are the ones that come to mind.
另一个重要的方面是，我们更喜欢观察用户，而不是与用户交谈。你总是听到要与用户交谈，倾听用户的意见，他们会告诉你他们想要什么、需要什么。这种方法有时会奏效，但我们发现最有效的方法就是观察用户。不管是通过用户研究会话，还是直接观察他们如何使用产品。我相信这在你和许多收听你节目的人的身上都发生过，当有人在填写信息时，把电子邮件和姓名输入在同一个字段里，因为你的字段标示为“电子邮件，姓名”时，你会感到难堪。还比如，你字段要求填写“电子邮件或用户名”，用户会认为你要他们两个都填写，因为他们觉得这是你在要求的。这些都是观察用户何其重要的例子。我想这些例子是最能说明问题的。
Okay, this is a great. Let me follow up in a couple of these. So what I'm hearing is there's a lot of independence and kind of distribution of ownership where teams can kind of go off and build their own stuff. As you pointed out, it's important to have a vision in some sense of what success looks like and make sure everyone's rolling in the same direction. Just going at level deeper, how do you actually operationalize that sort of wave operating where teams can do their own thing, but you also share vision.
好的，这是个好主意。我来跟进其中的几个方面。我听到的是，这里有很大的独立性和所有权分配，团队可以自己去开发他们的东西。正如你所指出的，拥有一个对成功的愿景，并确保每个人朝着同一个方向努力是非常重要的。更深入地说，你是如何让这种运作方式具体化的，让团队能独立行动的同时又能共享同一个愿景？
How often do you update that vision, how do you communicate it, and then how do you check in with teams to make sure they're heading towards the right direction? We don't do anything magical there. We do a lot of design reviews. I think it's the term that they would probably use or product reviews in the US where it's like, okay, this is what we're working on. This is what it looks like. This is what all the pieces together are doing and working are not working.
你们多久更新一次这个愿景？你们如何传达这个愿景，又如何与团队沟通以确保他们走在正确的方向上？我们在这方面并没有什么神奇的做法。我们进行很多设计审查。在美国，他们可能会用“产品审查”这个词。通过这种方式，我们可以看看我们正在做什么，项目的样子如何，各个部分的运作情况，以及哪些地方没有发挥作用。
They're the leadership team is extremely candid and honest on their feedback. Always cordial and a happy work environment, but definitely on the side of being honest about what's working, what's not working, whether the vision was mistaken as well. There are many times where we've thought this was the right direction. Turns out it's not and we can pivot very quickly into a new thing. No big secrets. Maybe the only secret is you can't check absolutely everything.
他们的管理团队在反馈上非常坦诚和诚实。工作环境总是很友好愉快，但他们绝对倾向于诚实面对问题，指出哪些是有效的，哪些无效，甚至质疑愿景是否正确。我们有很多次以为这是正确的方向，结果发现并不是如此，但我们可以很快转向新的方向。没有什么大秘密。也许唯一的秘密就是你无法检查所有事情。
When you have 18,000 people, so to give you another crazy statistic, we do around 30,000 deployments per day, like changes to production. 30,000 PRs a day. The PRs deploy changes to a system. It can be configuration changes. It can be database updates or whatever, things that change. There's no way anyone can check what those 30,000 changes are doing. That's more than one per developer. Some of them are automated changes as well.
当你拥有18,000名员工时，我给你一个令人惊讶的统计数据：我们每天进行大约30,000次部署，也就是对生产环境的更改，每天大约有30,000个拉取请求（PRs）。这些PRs对系统进行更改，可能是配置更改，也可能是数据库更新或者其他任何类型的变化。没有人能够检查这30,000个更改具体都做了什么，因为平均来说每个开发人员都有超过一次更改。有些更改是自动化的。
We have a very high speed of execution. It's quite fun to be around something that's changing that rapidly and that dramatically. We have many different businesses, many different competitors in different businesses who operate at world class, whether it's finance, whether it's e-commerce. I would even say Brazil is probably one of the most competitive markets on the planet for e-commerce.
我们的执行速度非常快。身处一个变化如此迅速且剧烈的环境中，真的很有趣。我们有许多不同的业务，在这些业务中也有许多不同的竞争者，他们都在各自领域达到世界级水平，无论是金融还是电子商务。我甚至可以说，巴西可能是全球最具竞争力的电子商务市场之一。
You have local players, you have international players, you have players from Asia that are even funded by video game revenue and profits. It's a great dynamic market to be around. Like that optimism. That way it's framing you. We like competition. Especially when you're competing with the top of the top and it pushes you to be better as well.
你有本地的玩家，也有国际玩家，还有来自亚洲的玩家，他们甚至是通过电子游戏的收入和利润来支持的。这是一个充满活力的市场，令人兴奋。这样的乐观态度很棒。这种环境会将你塑造得更好。我们喜欢竞争。特别是当你和顶尖选手竞争时，这也会激励你变得更优秀。
This point you made earlier about being the top company in a market is really interesting. I was wondering if I wanted to come to this, but I think it's interesting to talk about for a bit. I've had a few product leaders from companies like Revolut and 26. I haven't had intercom on yet, but the co-founders coming on soon. The theme across all those conversations about how they built such a strong product team that pumps out incredible product leaders is they're the top startup in their market.
你之前提到关于成为市场顶尖公司的观点非常有趣。我本来不确定是否要谈论这个话题，但我觉得讨论一下还是挺有意思的。我接触过一些来自像Revolut和N26这样的公司的产品领导者。我还没有邀请过Intercom的人，但它的联合创始人很快就会参与进来。所有这些对话中共同的主题是，他们如何构建如此强大的产品团队，并涌现出令人惊叹的产品领导者，因为他们是在各自市场中占据顶尖地位的初创公司。
It's just an interesting thread of just how much power comes with being the most successful company in a market. Just like the cycle of success that comes from that in terms of hiring amazing people. Is there anything else there that you think might be interesting to folks that are, I don't know, that want to try to do something like this other than just build a successful business?
这段文字讨论了成为市场上最成功公司的影响力及其带来的成功循环，比如招聘出色人才的能力。它的意思是，当你成为行业中领先的企业时，你会获得很多权力和影响力。这种成功会吸引优秀的人才加入，从而进一步推动公司的成功。除此之外，这段文字还提到是否有其他方面的因素可能会吸引那些不仅仅想要建立成功企业的人们。
I think it applies to many things. You often also hear like, well, you're not in the Bay Area. You're not in the pinnacle of the capital of technology. How can you build amazing technology? There are advantages as well. I think you would find the same with, you mentioned a bunch of companies that have experienced that where, if you can be the top in the region where there's great talent, not in statistical definition, there's great talent everywhere.
我认为这适用于很多事情。你经常会听到这样的说法，比如，你不在湾区，不在科技之都的顶端。你怎么能建造惊人的技术呢？其实也有一些优势。我认为你会发现你提到的许多公司都有这样的经历，如果你能在某个地区做到顶尖，那里的确有很多优秀的人才，这并不只是统计学上的定义，其实优秀的人才无处不在。
It's probably follows a probabilistic distribution. It's everywhere. A lot of it does flow into the US and it's absolutely true that there's a very high concentration of talent outside specific companies. I think that's probably the one thing you don't get outside of the big tech hubs where you are of the top company, but you are the only top company and I'm exaggerating a bit. Right?
这可能遵循一种概率分布的规律。这样的情况无处不在。确实有大量人才流向美国，而且可以肯定的是，在某些特定公司以外，人才的集中度非常高。我认为这可能就是在大型科技中心之外无法获得的东西。在那些地方，你可能身处顶尖公司，但你也是唯一的顶尖公司，我是有点夸张了，对吧？
There are great companies throughout the world and in Latin America and you have unit corns and there outliers, but the truth is you're setting your own path and you're setting your map and setting your destination and you're building things that have not been built before in a different way. It's very fun. That's for sure. But oh, correct. I said Intercom. I don't think they're technically a US-based company, but I think a lot of the teams in Ireland are originally in Ireland just to be clear there.
全世界和拉丁美洲都有很优秀的公司，你会看到一些独角兽和特例。但事实上，你是在开辟自己的道路，制定自己的路线图和目标，建筑一些以前从未以这种方式建造过的东西。 这非常有趣，这是毫无疑问的。不过，我提到了Intercom，我不认为他们严格来说是美国的一家公司，其实他们有很多团队最初是在爱尔兰。希望能澄清这一点。
There's other companies like Canva and Atlassian. I feel like there's a really like what I'm taking away from this is if you want to build this company outside of the US, you need to be the best in that market to take advantage of this cycle that happens where the best comes to you. Yeah, maybe you could say you have to be the best eventually. Oh, if you want to have that flywheel running, it's hard to start and be the best and the biggest no when we're just getting started. But I think knowing that there's great talent everywhere and that it is possible to attract them without being in a specific tech hub, maybe even empowering. So like, I want to start a company here. I think we can also be honest that it will be harder. Oh, it is easier to recruit and build a team where you're in a place where the high density is all over.
有其他公司，比如Canva和Atlassian。我觉得我从中感受到的是，如果你想在美国以外的地方创建公司，你需要在那个市场中做到最好，以利用这种循环，因为最优秀的会主动找来。也许你可以说最终你必须要成为最好的。如果你想让这种飞轮效应运转起来，刚开始时就成为最优秀和最大的公司是困难的。但是，我认为应该认识到，出色的人才无处不在，即使不在特定的科技中心也有可能吸引到他们，这或许也会更具激励作用。因此，我想在这里创业。我认为我们也可以坦诚地说，这会更难。毕竟，在那些人才密集的地方招聘和组建团队会更容易些。
Another thing that happens to us is that many people try to recruit from us and that's something that we have to deal with. But if you actually get that flywheel going, it becomes into a clear advantage. I want to come back to something you said that I think might be there might be something more there, which is around reducing the fear of failure. A lot of companies and leaders say that and they're like, yeah, yeah, we let people fail totally no problem. But then in reality, they perform interviews, they get a show impact, they have to show success. Is there something you do to actually create that sort of culture we're failing is okay? Like, what can people learn from you to actually create that sort of culture?
另一件我们经常遇到的事情是，很多人试图从我们这里挖人，这也是我们必须应对的挑战。但如果你能让这种良性循环运转起来，这反而会成为明显的优势。我想回到你之前提到的一个观点，我觉得可能还有更深层次的东西，那就是关于减少对失败的恐惧。许多公司和领导者都说他们允许失败，听起来像是完全没问题。但在现实中，他们进行面试时还是要求看到影响力和成功的证明。你们是否采取了什么措施来真正营造一种允许失败的公司文化？人们能从你们那里学到什么来创造这种文化呢？
I think that question is even more on how does culture work at any companies, especially at ours, no, it's very clear that it's not what you write on the walls or what you put on your website from what F-learn and what we've seen, it's something it's what you do. No, it's what the leadership team is doing is how I get my performance reviews, how I get either praise or not praise and public. No, what are the acceptable errors? What are the not acceptable errors? Again, if we have a system outage, it's obviously unacceptable. That's not the kind of error that we're going for. We're going for, well, if you took a risk in a very bold vision and it turns out it was not the right path, you're not going to get penalized for that. You might even get a promotion and those messages that you send are extremely powerful.
我认为这个问题更在于公司文化是如何运作的，尤其是我们的公司。很明显，文化不是写在墙上的标语或网站上的内容。根据F-learn的经验和我们的观察，文化是一种行为表现。文化由领导团队的实际行动决定，比如我如何得到绩效评估、如何在公开场合受到表扬或批评。哪些错误是可以接受的，哪些不可接受？比如，系统崩溃是绝对不可接受的错误，而不是我们鼓励的那种错误。我们支持的是，如果你为了一个大胆的愿景而冒险，然后发现这不是正确的路径，你不会因此被惩罚。你甚至可能因此得到晋升，这些传递出来的信号具有极大的影响力。
No, who has what title, who gets promoted, who doesn't get promoted, who is getting what praise and public, what announcements are made on new products? How do we talk about things that didn't work? No, one very clear one is like, okay, this didn't work and yes, we like risk with the person that let the project was fired. I was like, well, then you're not sort of like living what you're, what you have on your website. Also, I think it is not more complicated than that. You need to live it, you need to show it and you also need to like have people that will take in that culture and also propagate it into their teams. That's also the way it scales in the organization, but it definitely starts with the top management of the company and again, what they are focused on, what messages they're sending to the rest of the company.
不论是谁拥有哪个头衔，谁获得晋升，谁未得到晋升，谁受到表扬和公众关注，以及发布了哪些新产品公告？我们如何讨论那些没有成功的事情？一个非常明确的例子是，比如说，有项目没有成功，而承担风险的负责人被解雇。我会觉得，那么你们并没有践行你们在网站上所宣传的理念。我认为，这其实并不复杂。你需要去实践它，展示出来，并且让员工接受这种文化，并在他们的团队中进行传播。这也是这种文化在组织中扩大的方式，但这无疑是从公司高层管理开始的，关键在于他们关注什么，他们向公司其他成员传达什么信息。
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You talked about this idea of being directed honest, but also maintaining a cordial environment. Talk about just that balance in the culture you've created of being direct kind of this idea of radical candors, what I'm hearing. Yeah, so the book became very, very popular. No. The book radical candor. Yeah, it's awesome. We had Kim Scott on the podcast. It's a great book. And the concept is also great. I would even say it's even more important in Latin America, in some Asian countries, where you have a culture and I'm Latin America.
你提到过直言不讳但也保持友好氛围的这种理念，谈谈你在文化中营造这种直接沟通与友好互动的平衡。这让我想起了“激进坦诚”的概念，对吧？是的，这本书非常受欢迎，是Kim Scott写的《激进坦诚》。这本书很棒，概念也很好。我甚至会说，在拉丁美洲和一些亚洲国家，这种理念更为重要，因为那里有特定的文化背景。我本人就是拉丁美洲人。
And so I can talk a little bit about stereotypes without it becoming offensive. Especially once that are true, where there's a lot of hierarchy. And I'm not going to tell my boss that he's wrong. What is going to do this because he said so or she said so. This is the way it works. And this is the way it's always been done. So that's the way we're we're going to do it. I don't want to stand out. All these are sort of like cultural stereotypes that we are extremely aware of when we when we operate.
所以我可以稍微谈谈有关刻板印象的问题，而不至于冒犯到别人。尤其是那些真实存在的情况，比如等级制度森严的地方。我不会告诉我的上司他错了。我们会按他说的去做，因为这就是规矩，这就是一直以来的做法。所以我们会按照这样的方式去做。我不想太过突出。所有这些都是我们在行动时非常清楚的文化刻板印象。
People are extremely polite in Latin America as well. I don't know if you've if you're traveled, everyone will smile at you. It will be very hard for someone to say no to something. Even like meetings or whatnot or all. Yes, but later, yes, but later. And they actually mean no. I think they're Argentina. Another country is with Argentina where the company was was founded is an exception to that where people are very direct. I will tell my boss if he's wrong.
在拉丁美洲，人们同样非常有礼貌。我不知道你有没有旅行过，但是每个人都会对你微笑。那里的人很难直接拒绝你。即使在会议上，他们也会用“是的，但稍后”这样的方式其实是在表达“不同意”。不过，阿根廷是个例外，公司在阿根廷成立，在那里人们非常直接。如果我的老板有错，我会直接告诉他。
It's something that I love about the company and we've been able to sort of like export that and also select for people that will actually behave and in that way. But yes, we're extremely direct, extremely candid. We're honest about what's working, what's not working. And it's it's a learning that every like manager or leader goes through like, well, I don't want to hurt people's feelings. You know, I want to be friends with everyone.
这是我对这家公司钟爱的一点，我们成功地将这种文化“出口”出去，并挑选会以这种方式行事的人。我们非常直率，非常坦诚，对事情的运作好与坏都十分诚实。对于每位经理或领导者来说，这都是一种学习过程，比如，他们不想伤害他人的感情，也希望和每个人都保持友好的关系。
I think we all start on on that path. And eventually you realize that people like the the honest they might not like it in the very short term or in the medium terms, sometimes even. But my experience has been if you're coming from a place of honesty, again, if you're sort of like not insulting anyone or or kind of like crossing a line where where things feel personal, people appreciate the feedback.
我认为我们一开始都是走在那条路上的。最终你会意识到，人们喜欢诚实的人，尽管在短期或中期内他们可能不太高兴，有时甚至更久。但根据我的经验，如果你是出于诚意，并且没有侮辱他人或越界让事情变得个人化，人们会欣赏这样的反馈。
People like growing people. Like if you have your performance review and everything comes back positive, what are you going to do with that? It's like, well, he's doing great. Everything's perfect. Thank you for being a part of the company. Oh, like what could I be doing better? What's not working? It's also a skill to separate that from from your person. No, we do have situations where I've had to have conversations on like, well, you got this strong feedback, but it's on the product, you know, it's like maybe on on the vision that we are pursuing or on the execution that there work has nothing to do.
人们喜欢培养人才。比如说，当你进行绩效评估时，如果所有的反馈都是积极的，你该怎么处理呢？就像：“哦，他表现得很好，一切都很完美。感谢你为公司做出的贡献。”这个时候你可能会想：“我还能在哪些方面做得更好？有什么地方没做好吗？” 能够将反馈与个人区分开来也是一种技能。当然，有时候我们也会遇到这样的情况：我不得不讨论一些强烈的反馈意见，但这些意见其实是针对产品的，比如我们追求的愿景或者执行过程中的问题，而不是针对个人的表现。
Like with you, we can we can go out and and and have lunch and and we'll still be cordial and but this idea of well, the companies should be like families and it's not true because you behave extremely different with with your family. There's no expectation of high performance. I mean, in some families, obviously, and in some cases, even in in mine, we can talk about that, but it's always from from a different perspective, whereas I think the analogy that we use much more often is of a high performance sports team where it's very clear where the line is between yes, we can have fun together and we should as we work on uninteresting things, but when you are talking about work and and the performance and then working, what's not working, the the results speak for themselves usually and we just don't hide that from for anyone.
就像和你在一起，我们可以出去吃饭，依然保持友好的关系。然而，把公司比作家庭的观点并不正确，因为你和家人的相处方式完全不同。在很多家庭中，包括我自己家里，有时确实存在表现要求，但这些要求是从不同的角度出发的。而我们更常用的比喻则是高绩效的运动团队。在这样的团队中，界限非常明确：是的，我们可以一起玩乐，尤其是在处理枯燥的任务时我们应该这样做；但一旦谈到工作和表现时，什么有效、什么无效，结果通常都会说明一切，我们不会向任何人隐瞒这些结果。
Speaking of that, along those same lines, I heard you do this. You do something that as a little controversial these days, they we do this a long time ago, which is you send it weekly mail asking what did you get done this week and you share what you get done this week. Talk about just that. Yeah, yeah, so it became a meme what was it like one or two years ago. I used to do it before that. I should I should say and I should also clarify that I don't actually have an expectation that the that people are going to send that to me. It's something I do myself.
说到这个，顺便提一下，我听说你有这样一个做法。你做了一件现在有点争议的事情，这种做法我们很早以前就开始了，就是你每周发邮件询问大家这一周完成了什么，并分享你自己的成果。就谈谈这件事吧。对，对，大概一两年前这还成了一个热门话题。我在这之前就一直这样做。需要说明的是，我并不期望别人也这样给我发邮件，这是我自己做的一件事。
So I'll sort of like go over what I did in the week, what worked, what didn't work, even what interesting things I discovered and I will share that with the executive team with our CEO who I report to. I'll share that some of them with my team. No, it's basically helps me keep track of what's working, what's not working. I usually also get feedback on on those emails or help or saying like, well, let's talk about this and this and that. So I mean, that's something super simple that anyone can do, right? You can write like a weekly email to your boss or to your team and saying like, well, this is what happened this week. This is what worked. This is what didn't work. This is maybe something I need help with or something that stuck. I mean, we can unlock it together. I think it's strange that not I haven't heard a lot of people doing it.
好的，我会简单地回顾一下我这周做了什么，哪些事情有效，哪些无效，甚至我发现的一些有趣的事情，然后把这些分享给管理团队和向我汇报的CEO。我也会和我的团队分享一些内容。这样做基本上有助于我跟踪哪些事情有效，哪些无效。我通常也会收到关于这些邮件的反馈，或者得到帮助，比如有些人会说“我们来谈谈这个和那个”。这其实是很简单的事情，任何人都可以做到，对吧？你可以每周给你的老板或团队写一封邮件，说“这是本周发生的事情，这个有效，那个无效，我可能需要帮助，或者卡住的地方我们可以一起解决。”我觉得很奇怪的是，我听说这样做的人并不多。
I think actually read it somewhere a couple of years ago and this probably where where I got the idea. I'll look it up to see if we can link it on your notes. I don't think credit for it. I wrote a post about this actually. I called it the state of me. Okay. Maybe it was you. I wonder if it was. Maybe it was you either way a link to this post and the whole idea and there's like a less controversial way of asking this instead of what did you do get done this week, which is I call it the state of me. I call it the state of Lenny email and basically every week it was a weekly thing for me and that a daily thing. I email my end manager. Here's what I got done. Here's my next set of priorities and here's blockers. I need you to help. I probably got it from you.
我想我其实是在几年前的某个地方读到过这个，这可能是我得到这个想法的来源。我会查一下，看能不能把它链接到你的笔记上。我不认为这归功于我。我实际上写过一篇关于这个的文章。我称之为我的状态。哦，也许是你。我不知道是不是你。无论如何，链接到这篇文章和整个想法就是，有一种不那么有争议的问法，而不是问这周你完成了什么，我称之为我的状态。我叫它Lenny的状态邮件，基本上每周，而不是每天，我都会给我的经理发邮件。这里是我做了什么，这里是我的下一个优先任务，这里是我需要你帮助的障碍。我可能是从你那里得到的。
It's sounding extremely familiar. I send the weekly email. I call it a weekly update. It's also not like whether I get done this week. It can be what I got done on the week, but important things are happening, your releases. That also frees up a lot of time, for example, with with my CEO or like, okay, on the weekly meeting, we don't have to talk about like those specific things where we can pick out from that email, what's relevant, what's working, what's not working. So it's definitely a great tool and I'm pretty sure I got from your post just hearing you. What a what a circle of light you got here.
这听起来非常熟悉。我每周都会发送一封邮件，我称之为每周更新。这不仅仅是关于我这周完成了什么，也可以是关于一周内我完成的事情，但更重要的是发生的重要事件，比如产品发布。这也为我节省了很多时间，比如说我的CEO或者在每周会议上，我们不需要讨论那些具体的事情，而是可以从那封邮件中挑选出相关的、有效的以及无效的内容。所以，这绝对是一个很棒的工具，我很确定我在听了你的分享后从你的帖子中得到了启发。你这里真是一个光明的圈子。
Okay, so speaking of things that you did before other people, something else that came up a lot in chatting with folks that work with you is they pointed out that you're really good at not falling for hype cycles. You're good at being really pragmatic about things that are everyone's really excited about like crypto, gen A.I. these days. How do you approach that? How do you approach new things that everyone's like super excited about and not kind of fall into this trap of just like, oh, we got to pivot and do this thing that everyone else is doing. I hadn't thought about it that way, but it's true. It's true in some sense because it's not like I just ignore it.
好的，说到你比别人早做的事情，还有一件事在和与你共事的人聊天时经常被提到，那就是他们指出你在不盲目追随潮流方面非常擅长。你在面对像加密货币、生成式人工智能这样的热门事物时非常务实。你是怎么做到这一点的？你如何处理那些让所有人都非常兴奋的新事物，而不掉入“我们必须转型去做大家都在做的事情”这种陷阱？虽然我之前没有这样想，但在某种程度上这是真的，因为我并不是完全忽略它们。
So I think I bought or even mine, my first Bitcoin in like 2010 or 12 or something like that. We can like leave it on this closed, how many and how many are still working? No, not enough for that. A lot of great lessons on selling and won the right time and whatnot. I had those lessons too. So it's not like I ignored what was happening. No, but I'm definitely skeptic of most things, I would say, even. I like doing a lot of research. Deep research is a great tool. I use it all the time for a lot of things. I do it myself as well.
所以，我想我大概是在2010年或2012年买下或挖出了我的第一个比特币。关于买了多少和还剩多少的问题，我们就不用细说了。总之，不会太多。关于卖出和选择合适时机的经验有很多，我也学到了不少。所以并不是说我对当时发生的事情视而不见。但是，我对大多数事情持怀疑态度。我喜欢做大量的研究。深入研究是一个很好的工具，我会经常用于很多事情，也会亲自去研究。
So with crypto, for example, I love the technology. Actually, I think there are some very fun breakthroughs there. The distributed consensus and how you get like a single thing. But then you start to run some of the numbers on like, okay, so what's the throughput and then what can you actually put in there? At least with the technology that we had at the time, all the things are moving quickly and you got layer two and layer three and whatnot. But I think having a good understanding of the fundamentals and also being involved probably in like what I would call the real world and a business and understanding the scale of what's necessary for things to work is it's helpful keeping a level head, no, on like what are some of the main characteristics.
例如，对于加密货币，我非常喜欢这项技术。我认为其中确实有一些非常有趣的突破，比如分布式共识和如何获得单一结果。然而，当你开始计算一些指标时，比如说，处理能力有多强，然后你到底能在里面装入什么。至少在我们当时拥有的技术条件下，这些进展速度很快，现在又有了第二层、第三层等等。但我认为，深入理解基础知识，同时参与到我所称的现实世界和商业活动中，并了解事物运作所需的规模，这对于保持冷静、理智看待一些主要特征是有帮助的。
So we can talk about. And by the way, like we have crypto in Merchandaleuré, we have our own cryptocurrency. So it's not like we just say like well crypto is useful and it's actually very useful in Latin America and countries where access to US dollars are it's not as easy as in other places. But I think going from that to saying like okay, every single thing on the planet is going to run on the on the blockchain. That's where some of my alarms start to go off and it's like well, it can be a great technology and it can be very successful without having to take over the world which can also turn into AI or again the claims are that it will take over the world and happy to talk about that.
我们可以聊聊这个话题。顺便提一下，在Merchandaleuré，我们有自己的加密货币。因此，不是仅仅说加密货币有用，这实际上在拉丁美洲和那些获取美元不如其他地方容易的国家非常有用。但我觉得，从这种观点拓展到说地球上每件事情都将跑在区块链上，这时候我的一些警报就响了。我认为，区块链可以是一种很棒的技术，能非常成功，并不需要主宰全球。类似的情况就像人工智能，有人声称它将主宰世界。我们可以聊聊这些观点。
But just understanding the fundamentals of the technology that's being potentially hyped and having a good understanding of how it could be applied to something useful for people. I think it's where it's been helpful. Awesome. Okay, let's pivot to talking about you as a human. There's just like so many stories I heard from people that I want to hear about. Okay, so one is that you built an app, you put in the app store Steve Jobs called you and he's like Sebastian, we got to remove your app.
了解这种技术背后的基本原理，并清楚地知道如何将其应用于对人们有用的事情，这是非常重要的。我认为这一直是很有帮助的。太棒了。那么，让我们转向聊聊你这个人。我听到了很多关于你的故事，我很想听一听。比如有一个故事是说你曾经开发了一个应用程序，并将其上传到应用商店，然后史蒂夫·乔布斯给你打电话，说：塞巴斯蒂安，我们得下架你的应用程序。
Yeah, yeah, talk about that story. Yeah, so we should clarify that the app was a bit strange. So it was an app that literally helped you drain your phone's battery. There were two reasons why I made it. One was because I was like learning about all the different sensors on the on the phone like GPS and gyroscope and the screen and whatnot. So as a dog, we're going to turn them all on at the same time and that's going to really warm up your your phone. On the other end, there was like this trend, I'm not even sure where that ended up where it was better for your phone to run completely out of battery and then recharge it.
好的，好的，聊聊那个故事吧。是这样的，我们应该澄清一下，这个应用有点奇怪。这个应用实际上是帮助你消耗手机电量的。我制作它有两个原因。首先是因为我在学习手机上的各种传感器，比如GPS、陀螺仪、屏幕等等。我会把它们全部打开，这样手机就会变得非常热。另一方面，当时有一种趋势，我也不确定它最后怎样了，就是说让手机完全没电再充电对手机更好。
I think now the recommendation is actually that it should stay between like 10% and 80% at all times to maintain very health. It was like okay, so when you have like 2% left and you just want to get it over with and get the battery down, you open this app and it's like drain it. So I like that there's a reason for this because I could see just doing it for fun but I like there's functionality here. Yeah, I always try to make it useful. Yeah, for me. So I put it on the app store and this was the time where like the app store was starting and the app review process and people were actually getting very mad that their apps were getting rejected.
我认为现在的建议其实是电量应该始终保持在10%到80%之间，以维持电池的健康。过去的情况是这样的：当电量只剩下2%时，你可能想要彻底耗尽电池，于是你就会打开这个应用，进行放电。我喜欢这种有目的性的设计，因为虽然我可以为了好玩而这么做，但我更喜欢它具备实际功能。是的，我总是尽量让它对我有用。我把它放在应用商店上，这时候正是应用商店刚刚开始的时候，应用审核过程让很多人感到气愤，因为他们的应用被拒绝了。
We're used to like a world where I just put my app out there and anyone can download it. So the Vappers were going to the press to say like well, Apple is not proving my app and then articles were written and it would be like a PR thing. So the executive team at Apple, including Steve, were actually calling developers to inform them that their apps were not going to be approved, that they were not sticking off the app store. Kind of like trying to avoid them going to the press and just like being more personal and explaining what was wrong with the app.
我们习惯了这样一个世界：我只要发布我的应用，任何人都可以下载。因此，一些开发者（Vappers）会去找媒体抱怨苹果不批准他们的应用，然后有文章会被写出来，引发公关问题。为了避免这种情况，苹果的高级管理团队，包括史蒂夫（乔布斯），会亲自打电话给开发者，通知他们他们的应用不会被批准上架。他们这样做是为了尽量避免开发者去找媒体，而是以更个人化的方式解释应用存在的问题。
So one day I'm walking in the street and I get a phone and a blocked number, like they can't identify it. Pick up. I said, well, hi, it's a fashion. This is Steve from Apple. I'm here to, well, I need to talk to you about your app. We're not going to be able to have it on the app store. This is draining people's batteries and we don't want that for people. Actually pushed back a little bit. I told the app store before making the app and there's no rule against draining the battery.
有一天，我在街上走着，突然接到一个来电显示为“未知号码”的电话。我接了电话，对方是这样说的：“你好，我是苹果公司的Steve。我需要和你谈谈关于你应用程序的事情。我们不能让它在应用商店上架，因为它会消耗用户的电池，我们不希望用户遇到这样的情况。”我试着跟他们争辨了一下，我告诉他们在我制作这个应用之前就已经咨询过应用商店，而且没有规定说不能消耗电池。
And he told me, check again, because we just added a new rule that apps cannot overly drain the battery on the phones. So I'm happy to say there is an app store rule that was made specifically for me at the time. I actually didn't realize I had spoken to Steve Jobs until a couple of minutes later. He was like, well, yeah, someone called Steve from Apple. There's probably a lot of Steve's. I was like, well, you know, that voice sounded extremely familiar and I look okay. And then articles started popping up of like Steve and the rest of the detective team, calling developers to let them know that this was happening.
他告诉我再检查一次，因为我们刚刚新增了一项规定，要求应用程序不能过度消耗手机电池。所以我很高兴地说，那时应用商店专门为我制定了一条规则。我当时没意识到我和史蒂夫·乔布斯谈过话，直到几分钟后。他说，就像是，嗯，有个叫史蒂夫的人从苹果打来的。有可能有很多叫史蒂夫的人。我心想，那个声音听起来非常熟悉，我一查发现果然如此。然后就有文章陆续出现，说史蒂夫和其他团队成员通知开发者这件事正在发生。
So I was happy to confirm that I had at least had a short phone conversation with Steve quite the legend. That is an incredible story. First of all, I just love that Steve Jobs was calling random app developers and so on. Founder Molls, right? How did he have the time? I just love that he took, you know, that they realized this is important and if people hear from us, that'll actually go over better. Even though people kept posting, right? Like people are like, Steve Jobs called me, touched on my app. So a little backfired maybe. How did he sat? Was he just like, was he this nice radical candor balance of nice and yeah, yeah. And it's not what you would against here, typically hear from him. No, he was a lot more mercurial. I think it was a term that people use, but none of that on the call. He was actually pretty nice and chill.
所以，当我确认我至少和史蒂夫进行了一次简短的电话交谈时，我感到非常高兴。真是一个令人难以置信的故事。首先，我非常喜欢史蒂夫·乔布斯会拨打电话给随机的应用开发者等人。创始人莫尔斯，对吧？他是怎么有时间做到的呢？我非常喜欢他意识到这很重要，并且如果人们能听到我们的声音，实际上效果会更好。尽管人们不断传播，比如有人会说，史蒂夫·乔布斯给我打电话，评价了我的应用程序。所以可能有点适得其反。他是怎么坐下来的？难道他就是那种既友好又直接沟通的人吗？而且这不是人们通常会从他那里听到的。他通常会更难以捉摸，这是人们常用的一个词，但在电话中完全不是这样。他实际上表现得相当友好和随和。
And if I like, well, we're not going to allow you rap, just matter of fact. Yeah. And then you said that they added this rule, yeah, before he called you, we have a new rule. I guess they could do that, right? It's like our place, our store. Wow. Okay. Amazing story. Did that discourage you from building more apps? Are you just like holy shit? No, absolutely not. I was very happy to talk to Steve. I sent him a few emails. I never got a reply to be honest, but yeah, since I'm emails on feedback on again, like the app store, the iOS and whatnot, I was super young by the way at the time. I think I was like 16 or 17 or 18 when I developed that that app. So I was like, yeah, I didn't know what it meant, no, to get a call from him and then to send him emails and expect a reply and what not so it was a fun experience.
如果我愿意，我们不会允许你说唱，这就是事实。是的。然后你说在他打电话给你之前，他们已经加了这个规则，是的，我们有一个新规则。我猜他们可以这样做，对吧？毕竟这是他们的地方，他们的商店。哇，好吧。一个很棒的故事。这有让你在开发更多应用时感到沮丧吗？你有没有想“天啊”？完全没有。我很高兴能与史蒂夫交流。我给他发过几封邮件。说实话，我从未收到回复，但我确实就应用商店、iOS等事情给出过反馈。顺便说一下，当时我非常年轻。我开发那个应用时，大概只有16、17或18岁。所以当时我并不知道，被他打电话意味着什么，然后给他发邮件并期待回复等等，对我来说是一次有趣的经历。
And I kept building more apps. I actually started a mobile app development company a few months after after that, which is another another fun story. Well, maybe this is the story, but I know that at 19 you built an app that became the number one app in 19 countries. Maybe just briefly share that story. That one is super fun. So I had a girlfriend, why really like at the time. I don't know if that happened in the US, but in many Latin American countries and I think throughout the world, phone companies came out with something where you could call five numbers for five minutes for free, like a five or five or five. So I had my girlfriend's number on there and we will talk for five minutes. But what they did is if you went over like one second, they would charge the whole five minutes and and and and phone bills were expensive.
我不断地开发更多的应用。不久之后，我实际上还创立了一家移动应用开发公司，这也是一个有趣的故事。可能这就是那个故事，但我知道你在19岁时创建了一款应用，这款应用在19个国家成为了排行榜第一。可以简单分享一下这个故事吗？这个故事超级有趣。那时我有个非常喜欢的女朋友。我不知道在美国是否也是这样，但在许多拉丁美洲国家以及可能世界各地的电话公司都推出了一个功能，你可以免费拨打五个号码，每次通话五分钟，像是5x5x5这样的服务。所以我把我女朋友的号码加到了这个服务里，我们会通话五分钟。然而，如果超过一秒钟，他们就会收取整个通话的费用，而且电话费非常昂贵。
Now, we're going to sound like old people when when we talk about this soon. It was like a big deal, especially for for for a teenager. No, I don't have like money to throw around and on on on my phone bill. So I made this app that was extremely simple. It alarmed you or like it sent a notification when you were close to reaching the five minutes. So you could just hang up and call again and have another five free minutes and then call again. I did it for myself. It turned out to be a good investment because I ended up marrying my girlfriend. And she saw my wife and we have a beautiful family together. It also turned out to be a good business decision. So it cost $100. I think it's still does to to upload an app to the app store. I thought, okay, I think to sell like around 100 copies. I mean, there are fees and what not.
现在，当我们谈论这个事情的时候，我们可能会显得有点老派。对一个青少年来说，这可是件大事。我当时没有闲钱用在电话费上，所以我制作了一个非常简单的应用程序。它会在你快要达到五分钟通话时间时发出警报或通知，这样你就可以挂断然后重新拨号，再获得另外五分钟的免费通话时间。我最初是为了自己而做的，结果证明是个不错的投资，因为最终我娶了我的女朋友，现在我们有了一个美好的家庭。这也是一个不错的商业决策。因为上传一个应用到应用商店需要花费100美元，我当时就想，如果能卖出大约100份就不错了。当然，还有一些费用和其他开销。
But let's say I have to sell 100 copies for $1. So I'll put on the app store. That was my business plan. And it absolutely exploded. It became the top selling app in Mexico and a lot of other different countries. It was not a free app. And it was also completely local. So there was no back end, no cost, no advertising. So it was a very profitable endeavor that also very quickly turned into a business in itself. And then a separate business where people, this is when the app store was starting, when the iPhone was getting big. So I actually got contacted by a lot of different companies like multinationals, governments. I was like, well, you have the number one app. So we want you to build an app for us.
假设我需要以每份1美元的价格卖出100份。所以我就把它放到了应用商店。这是我的商业计划。结果它完全爆红了，成为了墨西哥和其他许多国家的畅销应用。它不是一个免费应用，而且完全是本地化的，所以没有后端，没有成本，也不需要广告。因此，这是一个非常有利可图的项目，并且很快就发展成了一个独立的生意。当时正值应用商店刚起步，iPhone正流行的时候。后来许多不同的公司，包括跨国企业和政府部门都联系了我。他们看到我拥有排名第一的应用，就想让我为他们开发应用。
There weren't that many people into iPhone OS at the time it was called development, new objective C and all the ways to build a good app. So I started building apps myself for a bunch of different people and companies. Eventually I couldn't scale that and had to hire people. So I hired my friends from college and taught them how to do apps. We actually all learned from a free online course from Stanford. It was a great course on how to build apps. I remember going to to my university professors saying, hey, the iPhone is cool. I want to learn how to make these apps who can teach me and they're like, no one like this is new. No one knows how to do it.
当时，对iPhone OS感兴趣的人并不多，因为它还处于开发阶段，涉及新的Objective C和各种构建优秀应用的方法。所以我开始为不同的人和公司开发应用。后来，我一个人忙不过来，不得不雇人帮忙。因此，我请了大学的朋友们来，并教他们如何制作应用。实际上，我们都是通过斯坦福大学提供的一个免费在线课程学到的。那门课程非常棒，教我们如何开发应用。我记得曾去找大学教授，说：“嘿，iPhone很酷，我想学如何制作这些应用，谁能教我呢？”结果他们说：“没有人会，这是新的东西，没人知道怎么做。”
So I also had to learn on my own, but now I was able to teach people, turn that into a mobile app about a company that did that for about two years. It turns out to be a very good business, but it's also boring to have to start over new projects and new projects and projects. I like going deep into things and iterating and actually creating products that people love. So we decided to sell the consulting side of that, keep the mainly mobile team, start working on fun products that we could actually scale and scale exponentially.
所以我也不得不自学，但现在我可以教别人了，并把这些知识转变为一个有关公司的移动应用程序，这家公司在这方面做了大约两年。结果证明这是个很好的生意，但不断开始新的项目、新的项目和项目是让人感到乏味的。我喜欢深入探究、不断改进，并真正创造出人们喜爱的产品。所以我们决定卖掉咨询业务，保留主要从事移动开发的团队，开始开发一些有趣的、能够实际扩展并实现指数级增长的产品。
One of those was ordering taxis from your phone. So at the time Uber was starting in San Francisco, they started kind of like a private network of drivers and fancy cars and eventually it was open to a lot of people. I thought, well, that would work great for taxis and Mexico City is the city with the most taxis on the planet at these outside Asia. At the time in San Francisco, for example, at least taxis had kind of like a clunky computer and they were like these tracked by GPS or not.
其中之一就是通过手机预约出租车。当时，优步（Uber）在旧金山刚刚起步，他们最初成立了一个由司机和豪华车组成的私人网络，最终向更多人开放。我想，这样的方式对于出租车来说很有效，而墨西哥城是除亚洲以外出租车数量最多的城市。例如，在当时的旧金山，出租车至少配备了一种有些笨重的电脑，并通过GPS进行定位。
But in Mexico, they use radios and you had to call a number and you never knew if your taxi was coming or not. So we developed a very simple test. It sounds silly now that these companies are huge, but I was actually like not sure are people going to trust getting on a car that they got from a phone in Mexico City when your parents have told you like don't trust people on the internet and don't get into strangers cars.
在墨西哥，人们使用无线电系统叫出租车，你需要拨打一个号码，但你永远不知道出租车是否会来。所以我们开发了一项非常简单的测试。现在看来这有点可笑，因为这些公司已经发展得非常庞大，但当时我真的不确定人们是否会信任通过手机叫来的车，尤其是在墨西哥城。当大家的父母都在告诫说不要相信网上的人以及不要上陌生人的车时，这种不信任感尤其明显。
So we're like combining two things that people were taught not to do by their parents. We decided to just do the passenger app and test whether people actually liked this. So when you requested a car, we would call a taxi company and basically just call for you and send the car over. And that was enough for it to explode. Like we could not deal with the demand. We actually had to build like an intermediary call center to like call other call centers while we developed the driver's side of the marketplace and actually got drivers on board.
所以，我们正在结合两件传统上人们的父母教导他们不要做的事情。我们决定只开发乘客端的应用程序，然后测试人们是否真的喜欢这个想法。当你叫车时，我们会联系出租车公司，为你叫车并发送车辆。仅此就足以让需求激增，我们根本无法应对这种需求。我们其实不得不建立一个中间呼叫中心，以便在我们开发司机端的市场并真正让司机加入之前，能联系其他呼叫中心。
And once you got the flywheel and then you got all of drivers and a lot of riders and the network effects, then it started to scale and work. Those were a fun experience. Oh man, you're just a well of fascinating stories. I love this kind of journey of sharing of just like at 16 I think you built that app that Steve Jobs called you about, was it right? Yeah, I have maybe seven things. Okay, so okay, from that to now managing something like 18,000 engineers.
一旦转动飞轮，并且拥有了所有的司机、大量的乘客以及网络效应后，一切开始规模化运作。这确实是一次有趣的经历。哇，你真是个充满传奇故事的人。我喜欢这样的旅程分享。比如说，你在16岁时开发了那个应用程序，听说当时史蒂夫·乔布斯还给你打过电话，是吗？是的，我大概有过七件类似的事情。好吧，从那段日子到现在管理着大约18,000名工程师，这真是不可思议的历程。
I love this journey. Also competing with Uber along the way. Yeah, yeah, very intense competition. I've always enjoyed competition. That's the pit of me intense competition for what I hear. Okay, another interesting thing about you that I've heard is that you drink, you drink no alcohol, which I think is common these days, but there's something you've been doing for a long time. You also drink no tea, no coffee, no juice, no soda, just water.
我喜欢这段旅程。同时，我也在一路上与优步竞争。是的，是的，竞争非常激烈。我一直很享受竞争，而激烈竞争正是我所追求的。我还听说关于你的另一件有趣的事情是，你不喝酒精饮料，我认为现在这很普遍，但这是你长时间以来一直在做的事。你也不喝茶、咖啡、果汁或汽水，只喝水。
Well, what's going on there? Why is that? I just love water. That's what water is amazing. I think it's not the same reason for everything. It has turned now into, well, I'm happy with water. Why do I have to alter my brain with chemicals? I like my brain. We have a good relationship. I sleep well and I don't feel like I need stimulants of any kind. I already have a lot of fun. It's starting in different ways.
哦，那边发生了什么？为什么会这样？我就是喜欢水。水真的很神奇。我觉得并不是所有事情都有同样的原因。现在，我对水感到满足。为什么我需要用化学物质来改变我的大脑呢？我喜欢我的大脑，我们关系很好。我睡得很好，也不觉得需要任何形式的刺激物。我已经有很多乐趣了，只是以不同的方式开始。
So the legal drinking age in Mexico is 18, a lot younger than in the US. So people actually start drinking when they're 16. So very early, I got to see the effects of at least drinking a lot can have on your body and that just never wanted to be in that situation where I didn't have control of my destiny and control. We don't have a lot of control on our destinies, but at least physical control.
在墨西哥，法定饮酒年龄是18岁，比美国要小得多。因此，人们实际上在16岁时就开始饮酒了。很早我就看到了过量饮酒对身体的影响，我从未想过自己会进入那种无法掌控命运和身体的状况。虽然我们对自己的命运没有太多掌控，但至少可以对身体有控制权。
I want to walk there and can I walk there? I think that really marks you when you see young people or drinking. It's not a fun picture. Then I understand people. Like adults can drink responsibly and have fun with friends and whatnot, but I never got into it. I think it's like an acquired taste. I don't particularly enjoy the flavor of beer and different alcohols.
我想步行到那里，我可以走到那里吗？当你看到年轻人或喝酒的场景时，那种画面对我影响很深。那不是一个有趣的画面。不过我能理解，有些成年人能理智地饮酒，并和朋友们一起享受乐趣，但我从未对酒精产生兴趣。我觉得这是一种需要培养的嗜好。我不太喜欢啤酒和其他酒类的味道。
Coffee, it's also similar. I don't like how it tastes. It takes extremely better to me. I also think it's an acquired taste where it's like, okay, well, the effect is great because I get a lot of energy. And then you start to appreciate the flavor. I don't think it starts with the flavor. So again, I never got into it. Tea, I think, is something that I could drink, but I just never think of drinking it.
咖啡，其实也差不多。我不喜欢它的味道，不过对我来说，这种味道还算不错。我觉得咖啡是一种需要慢慢习惯的味道，一开始可能不会喜欢，但效果很好，因为喝了之后会很有精神，后来你就开始欣赏它的味道。我觉得对大多数人来说，咖啡的魅力不是它的味道，所以我一直没怎么喜欢上它。至于茶，我觉得我可以喝，但我总是忘记去喝。
And I'll probably raise you even one stranger that, I don't know if my friends you interviewed mentioned, but actually also don't listen to a lot of music. Also, when I programmed, I like to program in silence, which I know seems like extremely strange to a lot of programmers and developers. And I think the reason for that one and also talking about the interesting background is my dad's an orchestra conductor. So I went to maybe like hundreds of concerts for big orchestras and backstage. And it was actually very fun. But I think I had enough music for a while. And it's not like I don't enjoy music. My wife is really into music, and we listen to music together, and with our kids and everything. But I never have the idea of putting on music myself. So that's another strange one to share. That was a good one. I had not heard that one.
我可能还要告诉你一个更奇怪的事实，我不知道我的朋友们在采访中有没有提到这一点，其实我并不怎么听音乐。而且，当我编程时，我喜欢在安静的环境中进行，这对很多程序员和开发者来说可能非常奇怪。我觉得这其中的原因，还包括了我的成长背景，我的爸爸是个乐团指挥，所以我去过可能几百场大型乐队的音乐会，也到过后台。这其实很有趣，但我想我有段时间听够音乐了。并不是我不喜欢音乐，我的妻子很喜欢音乐，我们会和孩子一起听音乐。但是，我从来没有自己主动放音乐的想法。这是另一个想分享的奇怪之处。这个挺有意思的，我之前没有听说过。
And then another couple of things I heard is that you basically don't do any social media. You also don't watch the news. You don't watch TV, really. Is that all true? That is true. That is true. For a really long time, we didn't even have a TV like the device. We bought one when my son was born. And we couldn't go to the movies anymore. So I do like media. I like movies from time to time. We do what shows from time to time. But we can watch them on an iPad. I think it's a lot less addictive.
然后，我还听说你基本上不使用社交媒体，你也不看新闻，也不怎么看电视，是真的吗？是的，这是真的。很长一段时间，我们甚至没有电视机。等到我儿子出生时，我们才买了一台，因为那时我们不能再去电影院了。所以我还是喜欢媒体的，也会时不时看电影和节目。但我们可以在iPad上看，我觉得这样上瘾的可能性会小很多。
The screen is small. So even though a TV now, we don't use it very often. I love reading. And the social media thing, I think it's worth qualifying as well. I enjoy X a lot, Twitter, and reading what people are thinking, what's happening, what's not happening. That's probably my main source of news. I don't follow any news organizations, which is because I feel like I'm going to find out if something extremely important is happening. Like now, the whole political and geopolitical environment is extremely volatile. And I hear about that from people that I follow. And sometimes I'll retweet articles and then and I'll read them.
屏幕很小，所以即便它现在是一台电视，我们也不常使用。我喜欢阅读。至于社交媒体，我觉得也值得一提。我很喜欢X，推特，喜欢阅读人们的想法和发生的事情或未发生的事情。这大概是我获取新闻的主要来源。我不关注任何新闻机构，因为我觉得如果有什么极其重要的事情发生，我总会知道的。比如现在，整个政治和地缘政治环境非常不稳定。我从我关注的人那里了解到这些信息。有时我会转发文章，然后再去阅读。
There was a fun memory of my childhood when we had a TV in the house. And my mom's also a very curious character stuck a sign to it that said, everything you see here is a lie. She stuck the sign to the TV. I don't think she meant it for like news and she didn't get into the whole misinformation thing and whatnot. It was mostly like, well, you're going to watch cartoons of people flying and be careful. Don't jump off the roof of the house. I think it goes more in that sense, but it probably stuck with me of being very independent minded and to your own research and actually understand what you're hoping for and what do you want to do.
我小时候有一个有趣的回忆，那时候家里有一台电视。我妈妈是个很有好奇心的人，她在电视上贴了一张纸条，上面写着：你在这里看到的一切都是谎言。我想她这样做并不是针对新闻，也不是因为什么错误信息之类的。更多的是因为我们要看那些人会飞的动画片，所以她提醒我们要小心，不要真的从屋顶跳下去。我觉得这件事让我变得更独立，总是自己去做研究，真正去理解自己想要什么和想做什么。
Again, I'm not closing my ears and eyes to what's happening in the world. And I do follow a lot of tech coverage and that I enjoy a lot. New programming languages, new frameworks, new model developments. So when I talk about news, it's probably like the bad news that I think people can sometimes even get addicted to. If I turn on the TV and put the local news channel, this is just going to be bad news. And I know that like, statistically, it's not all bad news. So why am I going to like watch a show that's pointing out very unique things that don't happen very often that are not happy stories?
再说一次，我并不是对世界上发生的事情视而不见。我确实关注很多科技方面的报道，并且很享受这样的内容。不论是新的编程语言、新的框架还是新的模型发展，我都很感兴趣。所以当我提到新闻时，我指的可能是那些负面新闻，我觉得人们有时候甚至会对它上瘾。如果我打开电视，调到本地新闻频道，看到的只会是坏消息。我知道，从统计上来说，并不是所有的新闻都是坏消息。那我为什么要看一个节目，专门指出那些不常发生也不开心的特殊事件呢？
I don't know who said this once, but it's always stuck with me along the lines of what you just said that we're just not designed to know all the bad things happening in the world every day. Like we lived in small tribes where if a couple maybe something bad happened that day, we're not evolved to go for comprehend so many calamities globally that we should not even know. Absolutely. Right. I can't imagine our brains were evolved into, well, you know, you open your phone and you get like unlearned information about any single topic that you want. I think you have to be like purposeful of what you're reading, what you're seeing.
我不知道这是谁说的，但这句话一直留在我心中，与你刚才说的类似：我们并非被设计成每天了解世界上所有坏事的样子。在过去的小部落中，如果发生一两件坏事，我们可以应对，但我们没有进化到能理解全球那么多灾难的程度，也许我们根本就不应该知道这些。我完全同意。我无法想象我们的头脑进化到这样的地步——你打开手机，就可以了解到任何你想知道的主题的海量信息。我觉得你需要有意识地选择读什么、看什么。
You can find absolutely anything. Amazing things, horrible things. So why am I going to like focus on the horrible things? I love that. And I feel the same way. This is such a cool glimpse into just what it takes to be extremely successful to go from building this app that Steve Jobs had down to running a company and the team the size. Is there anything else along those lines that we haven't talked about that might be helpful for folks either about how you operate as a human morning routine trick? I don't know anything else that we have attached on along those lines.
你可以找到任何东西，无论是美好的还是糟糕的。那我为什么要专注于那些糟糕的事物呢？我喜欢这种态度，我也有同感。这真是一个很好的角度，看看从开发了一款连史蒂夫·乔布斯都认可的应用，到管理一家大公司和庞大的团队，需要付出什么。有没有其他我们还没谈到的相关话题，可能对大家有帮助，比如你是怎么安排你的生活的，或者有哪些早晨的习惯或小窍门？如果有的话，请分享一下。
I don't have a stricter routine as you would expect when you talk like to executives and whatnot like well this is the time that I do this is the time that I do this. I think what's worked great for me is to follow my curiosity. Thankfully, I think I have good intuition. But even like in life and in my work, it's hard to say like well this is a formula for what you should focus on today. I have an intuition of what I'm most curious about and thankfully that usually aligns with what we should be working on and where I can add the most value to my teams, to the company, to my family, to my career, to the things I'm learning.
我没有那些你们可能期望的严格日程安排，比如像管理高层那样，总有固定的时间做某件事。我发现对我最有效的做法是跟随我的好奇心。幸运的是，我觉得自己的直觉还不错。无论是在生活中还是工作中，很难说今天应该专注于什么才是合适的。我对自己最感兴趣的事情有一种直觉，这种兴趣通常与我们应该努力的方向一致，同时也让我能为团队、公司、家庭、事业和学习带来最大的价值。
I think that's probably what's been the guiding principle for me. I'll follow your curiosity, what excites you. It's also probably what you're going to be good at because it's hard to compete with someone who loves what they're doing if you don't love that thing. But if you go in and say well this is my curiosity, this is what I love. I'm probably going to be good at it and it's not going to be like something I have to force myself into. So I think that's something that I've done throughout my whole life and career that's worked very well.
我认为这可能是我一直以来的指导原则。跟随你的好奇心，追求让你感到兴奋的事物。这可能也是你擅长的，因为如果你不热爱某件事，就很难与那些热爱它的人竞争。但是，如果你说这是我的好奇心所在，这就是我所爱的事物，那么我可能会擅长它，而且不需要勉强自己去做。所以我觉得这是我在整个生活和职业生涯中一直坚持的，并且效果很好。
I had Toby, LePcan the podcast and we were talking about raising kids for a little bit and we chatted about what do you want your kid to learn most. What's the most important trait to develop in his inkling is developing curiosity. Developing curiosity? I think I would agree. I think the the other one that you need is probably it's also a trending topic now with agency. Nothing like it's not probably enough to just be curious, be curious and go get what you want. We were raised in a very intensely independent way.
我和Toby、LePcan一起录制播客时，聊了一会儿关于抚养孩子的话题。我们讨论了最希望孩子学到什么，最重要的品格是什么。Toby倾向认为，培养好奇心是最重要的。我想我同意这一点。不过，还有一个现在很热门的话题就是自主性。仅仅有好奇心可能还不够，还需要有好奇心并主动追求你想要的东西。我们是在一种非常强调独立性的环境中长大的。
Also my mother, Mingly, had these fun ideas on how she wanted us to be. She wanted us to be able to handle quote-unquote any situation and the analogy that she used is that she wanted to train us like spice. I was thinking Sparta. Yeah, that's smart. Well, I'll share one fun story. One morning she wakes us up like hey we're going camping. I run get ready, like no warning. We're really in right now. I remember my little brother to understand how that plan worked. His only question was should I go on my pajamas or should I change so we go and turns out we're I think it would be actually hard to call it camping because we were camping with no gear.
我妈妈Mingly总是有一些有趣的想法，关于她希望我们成长成什么样子。她希望我们能够应对所谓的“任何情况”。她用的比喻是，想把我们培养得像调味料一样。我当时想到的是斯巴达人。没错，那很聪明。我分享一个有趣的故事。有一天早上，她把我们叫醒，说：“嘿，我们要去野营。”我赶紧去准备，但完全没有预兆。真的马上就出发了。我记得我弟弟为了搞懂这个计划是怎么回事，他唯一的问题是：“我应该穿着睡衣去，还是先换衣服？”结果我们去了，不过我觉得那其实很难叫野营，因为我们是去“裸营”的，没有带任何装备。
Also it was a survival camp training. It's what we were going to do. There was an instructor and it wasn't like completely irresponsible but it was like find your own water, build your own shelter, boil it, start your own fire. That was a fun one. Another fun one and that was to celebrate New Year's. Another fun one was she would drop us in the middle of the city, as a Mexican city. She says she would then just like leave us alone. I don't remember. I think she was just following us but we like you have to get back home and then you have to like no public transit or ask someone for help and basically like solve problems.
这是一场生存训练营。我们当时就要做这些事情。有一位指导员，虽然不是完全不负责任，但我们需要自己找水、搭建庇护所、烧水、自己生火。那真是一个有趣的经历。还有一个有趣的活动是为庆祝新年，我们被放在城市的中心，这是一个墨西哥城市。她说会把我们单独留下。我不太记得了，我想她可能在远处观察我们，但我们必须想办法回家，而且不能使用公共交通工具或者向别人求助，基本上就是要解决各种问题。
She would send us on international trips also alone. I think there were many things that she did. She called it independence. She wanted us to be independent. I think the term that we could use now is agency. If like solve your problems just go and get things done. I think that was also very formative of the way I am and I approach different problems. Do you feel like she might have actually been training you to be a spy? Maybe. We also did a lot of skiing, biking, trekking and also the action parts of the spy experience.
她也会让我们独自去国际旅行。我觉得她做了很多事情。她称之为独立。她希望我们独立。我认为现在我们可以用"自主性"来形容。如果有问题就自己去解决，把事情做好。我觉得这对我的性格形成以及我处理各种问题的方式影响很大。你觉得她是不是在训练你当间谍？可能吧。我们还进行了很多滑雪、骑车、徒步旅行等间谍生活中的行动部分。
We used to tease her still that she didn't enjoy activities that didn't have like a liability release before you did them. So yeah, repel, climbing. We had a very fun childhood. It explains a lot. I feel like I could do another hour just diving into your childhood and it would be you who you are today but maybe we'll save that for part two. I feel like we've done a great job giving people a sense of just how interesting you are as a person and also just the uniqueness of Mercado Libre and what they've built in the business that you help run.
我们以前常常取笑她，如果没有事先签署免责协议，她就不愿意参与那些活动。比如，攀岩、降绳之类的。不过，我们的童年真的很有趣。这也解释了很多。我觉得我可以聊一个小时只谈你的童年，这样也更能了解你今天成为了怎样的人，不过我们可以等到第二部分再说。我觉得我们已经很好地让大家感受到你作为一个人是多么有趣，以及你帮助运营的公司Mercado Libre在业务上有多么独特。
Is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think might be helpful to folks or that you want to leave listeners with before we get to very exciting lightning round? I think we covered a lot. I also am happy to be able to share. No, Mercado Libre doesn't operate in the US. I think that's the main reason why it's like not a such a well-known tech company. I think it's changing. With the stock growing as well, it helps a lot of people actually know it from investing and being very happy with the performance.
在我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节之前，还有什么我们没有提到的内容是你认为可能对大家有帮助的，或者是你想让听众知道的吗？我觉得我们已经讨论了很多。我也很高兴能分享自己的看法。不，Mercado Libre并不在美国运营。我认为这就是为什么它不是一家非常知名的科技公司的主要原因。不过我认为这种情况正在改变。随着股票的增长，很多人通过投资了解了这家公司，并对它的表现感到非常满意。
So thank you for letting me share some of what we do and some of what I've been doing. Absolutely. And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? I'm ready. What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people? This is a good one. I think it depends on the person that I'm recommended to. I try to actually make it relevant to what they're doing. If we go statistically, it's usually within the company. So management-related, high output management, I think is a great one. But also, recently, we're recommending people read the Odyssey. It's a super, super inspiring story. It's not a coincidence that it's survived for thousands of years. It's a really fun read and something that just resonates with a lot of people.
谢谢你让我分享我们的一些工作内容以及我所做的事情。好的。那么，接下来我们进入一个非常激动人心的快问快答环节。我有五个问题要问你。准备好了吗？我准备好了。你会推荐哪两到三本书给其他人？这是个好问题。我觉得这要根据我推荐的对象来定。我通常会选择与他们工作相关的书籍。如果从统计上讲，大多是在公司内部推荐的书，所以我认为《高效能管理》是一本不错的书。不过，最近我们还推荐大家读《奥德赛》。它是一个超级激励人心的故事，能够流传数千年绝非偶然。这真的是一本非常有趣且能引发很多人共鸣的书。
Another book that I really like, it's called The Dream Machine. It's kind of like the story of computers and computing and the internet. For example, why is Ethernet called Ethernet? There was a low-hannette before. We also have a great one to understand some of the things that we rely on. These are like we stand in the shoulders of giants constantly to build the things we do. I think that's another great one. Because the rest are probably more fiction and my love doing and my love science fiction. What you would expect.
我非常喜欢的另一本书叫《梦想机器》。这本书有点像是关于计算机、计算和互联网的故事。比如，以太网（Ethernet）为什么叫Ethernet？之前甚至还有一个叫“低汉网”（low-hannette）的东西。这本书很好地帮助我们理解一些我们所依赖的东西。就像我们一直站在巨人的肩膀上去构建我们正在做的事情。我认为这也是一本很不错的书。因为其余的书大概更多是小说，而我喜欢做这样的事情，也热爱科幻小说。这是你可能会期待的。
This next question, I know you're watching TV. Let me just ask, is there a favorite recent movie that you've watched that you really enjoyed? Yeah. I mean, recent, I don't go to the movies as often as I used to since I had kids. Sometimes we go with them. But I think probably the last one that resonated with me or that I thought was awesome was everything everywhere at once. Just really fun movie, great acting, low budget. I didn't know when I was at the time. That one was super fun. I enjoyed a lot because I like the books.
下一个问题，我知道你在看电视。我想问一下，你最近有没有特别喜欢的电影？是的。最近的话，我自从有了孩子后就不常去电影院了，有时候会和他们一起去。但我觉得最近让我印象深刻或者让我觉得很棒的一部电影是《瞬息全宇宙》。这是一部非常有趣的电影，演员表演出色，预算也不高。当时我还不知道这些。这部电影非常有趣。我很喜欢，因为我喜欢书。
It's one of my favorite books. But I do watch children's shows from time to time. There, I'm sure someone has probably mentioned Blu-Wi already. But it's amazing. It's really well made for the kids, for the parents, great messages, great animation. That's just a gem that a real recommend. Yeah, Blu-Wi does come up a bunch. I feel like it's one of the more mentioned shows. Do you interview a lot of parents as well? Yes, I do. I'm an parent. I'm pulling them in.
这是我最喜欢的书之一。不过我也偶尔会看一些儿童节目。在那些节目中，我相信一定有人已经提到过《蓝色小狗》。但它确实很棒，为孩子们和家长们精心制作，传达了很好的信息，动画也很出色。我真的强烈推荐这部作品。《蓝色小狗》确实经常被提到。我觉得这是被提及最多的节目之一。你也经常采访很多家长吗？是的，我有。我自己就是家长，还在把其他家长也拉进来。
Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love? This one is going to be fun for you as well as a parent. I'm not sure if you've heard of Menteva. It's a new way of teaching kids to read. Oh, the company. Yeah, it's the same. It is a product. It's great. I did it with my son. I taught him how to read using the program. And now he's probably the top reader in his class. How old is he? So he's five. It's actually designed for three, four, five-year-olds. So he's probably late to the reading early bandwagon because I haven't really seen strong evidence that it actually changes outcomes in the future.
你最近有没有发现特别喜欢的产品？这个产品既适合你，也适合作为家长的你。我不知道你是否听说过Menteva。这是一种教孩子阅读的新方法。哦，对，就是那个公司。没错，它就是一个产品，很棒。我用这个程序教我的儿子读书，现在他可能是班上阅读能力最好的。他几岁了？他五岁。这个产品实际上是为三到五岁的孩子设计的。所以他可能在早期学阅读的潮流中算是晚了一点，不过我还没有看到它对未来有明显的效果变化的证据。
The best argument I've seen for it from Matt Bateman. I'm sure you're familiar with him, but he's great on education and months sorry. It can lead to a very enjoyable childhood if you can read early. So if you're like a four-year-old, a five-year-old, that can read very well, you'll have a fun childhood with access to a lot more information. So for us, it wasn't like reading early. It was just making sure you have a really good fundamental on reading. It was just a base skill that propagates to the rest.
这是我从Matt Bateman那看到的最好的论点。我相信你对他很熟悉，他在教育方面很出色。抱歉，可能会花点时间。如果孩子能早点学会阅读，会有一个非常快乐的童年。比如说，如果一个四五岁的孩子能很好地阅读，那么他们就能接触到更多的信息，童年会更加有趣。对我们来说，关键不在于要多早开始阅读，而是确保孩子在阅读方面有一个坚实的基础。这是一项基本技能，并将影响到其他各个方面。
And that may actually be a piece of academy for math is another great one that I would recommend to parents. That one's great. I mean, maybe the last product I would mention, David Protein bars. They're very good. I really like weightlifting. It's sort of like one of the things I do to get my blood flowing. Super high quality ingredients, very high protein. I think it's actually a venture back company. I've talked to founders, but reach out. I would love to meet you. You guys are doing something fun. I think those are the ones that come to mind.
这句话大意是：
另外，有一个非常好的数学教育平台，我也会推荐给家长。这个很不错。可能我最后要提到的产品是David的蛋白棒。它们非常好。我特别喜欢举重，这是我让自己血液流动的方式之一。这些蛋白棒的成分质量非常高，蛋白质含量也很高。我觉得这其实是一家有风险投资支持的公司。我和创始人聊过，但我很想进一步了解。如果你们有意愿，我很想认识你们。你们在做一些有趣的事情。这些都是我能想到的推荐。
3D printers are also fun. I made a telescope with my son a couple of months ago. Those were fun. There's a lot of new products now. It's a fun time to be alive. This is your category. You're ready here. Cool fun gadgets and products. Yeah. Feel like this could be another hour of podcasting. Probably. Okay. Two more questions. One, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life?
3D打印机也很好玩。几个月前，我和我的儿子一起做了一架望远镜。那段时间真的很有趣。现在有很多新产品。活在这个时代真的很有趣。这是你的领域，你完全准备好了。酷炫的玩意儿和产品。嗯。我觉得这话题我们可以再聊一个小时，可能吧。好，再问两个问题。首先，你有没有一个你常常用在工作或生活中，感觉很有用的人生座右铭？
Life in the world are malleable. Things aren't as set in stone as you would think. There's usually a way to get what you're after. You actually have to be careful, I think, about what you want. Because if you have enough agency, you can probably get, quote unquote, anything. So, make sure you're looking for something good that you're going to be happy with the result. But that's probably the main one. I've heard it phrased in many different ways. See, job said, well, you know, the world was built by people like you, like me. Some of them not smarter than you. Some of them maybe smarter than you. So you can just go out and do things. This is a new meme. No, and the world will probably reconfigure itself to help you. That one's from Mark and Dresan. Yeah, just understanding that you can actually change the world. It doesn't have to be in a massive way. It's also possible. Just in not just getting locked down to, well, you know, this is how it's done. Or this is a culture here. Or this is how it's always been done. I think we can change whatever we want.
世界上的生活是可塑的。事情并不像你想象的那样固定不变。通常总有办法获得你想要的东西。我认为你需要小心你真正想要的东西。因为如果你有足够的能力，你几乎可以得到所谓的“任何东西”。所以，一定要确保追求一些好东西，让你对结果感到满意。这点可能是最重要的。我听过很多不同的表达方式。乔布斯曾说过，这个世界是由像你我这样的人创造的。有些人并不比你聪明，有些人可能比你聪明。所以你可以大胆去做事。这是一个新的观念。世界可能会重新配置来帮助你。这是马克·安德森说的。要理解，你其实可以改变世界。改变不一定是以巨大的方式发生，也可以在小事上实现。不必局限于“嗯，这就是做事的方式”或“这就是这里的文化”或“这就是一直以来的做法”。我认为我们可以改变任何我们想要改变的。
What I'm hearing is your mom's goal of instilling agency new work. I would say so. Yes, I have fun solving problems. Just finding your way home from the center of Mexico City worked. Final question. A colleague of yours, maybe friend, Christopher Lazarus wanted me to ask you about something called the tatami project. Does that ring a bell talk about what that was? Yeah, yeah. That's from a long time ago. So you did your very good research. Yeah, talking about agency at some point, I wanted to have what's called a, I think it's called tatami room, not an expert, but basically a room in your house where you have tatami and you can meditate there or train or practice. My room, like my childhood bedroom was strange and that it had kind of like a basement. So like two floors, you could open a hatch on the floor and go down. I think it was like a thing from how the house would build. I decided that that was the best place for putting the tatami, but I didn't want to have like a roof on top of that. So I went and bought like construction gear and like huge diamond cutters and actually caught a big hole in the middle of my room, put a stair and put the tatami underneath. So I kind of like turned my, my room into a two floor loft, which was pretty fun. I hadn't thought about that in, you know, while I used to do a lot of hacker projects and maker things and I love, I love using my hands. I love building products, technology, code, but also physical things. Had a lot of fun with our dweenos and building tiny robots.
我听到的是你妈妈希望通过一些新的工作来培养自主能力。我想是这样的。是的，我喜欢解决问题。就像从墨西哥城中心找回家的路这一经历就很管用。最后一个问题，你的一个同事，也可能是朋友，克里斯托弗·拉扎鲁斯让我问你一个叫做榻榻米项目的事。你知道这是什么吗？是的，是的，那是很久以前的事了。看来你确实做了很好的调查。是关于自主能力的某个时候，我想要一个所谓的榻榻米房间，我不是专家，但基本上就是在你家里有个房间可以放置榻榻米，你可以在那里冥想、训练或练习。我童年时的卧室很奇怪，因为它像是有一个地下室，所以有两层，你可以打开地板上的舱口，然后走下去。我想那与房子的建筑方式有关。我决定那里是放榻榻米的最佳位置，但我不想在上面有个屋顶。所以我去买了建筑工具和巨大的金刚石切割机，实际上在我房间的中间切了一个大洞，放了一个楼梯，把榻榻米放在下面。所以我就像把我的房间变成了一个两层的阁楼，这相当有趣。我好久没想到过这个了，我过去常做很多黑客项目和创客的事情，我喜欢动手制作。我喜欢构建产品、技术、代码，同时也热爱制造实体的东西。我用Arduino制作小型机器人也玩得很开心。
Yeah, that's a fun memory, but I did put a hole in the middle of my room. My parents were always happy with us having projects. I was going to ask how did you want to feel about this. I don't think they were thinking about like the future sale value of the house or what not. It actually turned out to be, I think people were interested. They didn't sell the house, but they used to rent it and I was like, well, this is like strange. Maybe we'll put like something here and then turn out to be a good decision, but they were very open to us exploring and making mistakes, then going back even to the start of our conversation on how to not get stuck as a big company, as a big team. You need to make mistakes and take risks and that's something that was always encouraged by my parents. That is a hilarious story. Just to be clear, it's a Tommy Mad, it's like a thin mattress. So what's a Tommy is not something you would sleep on directly, but it's made out of bamboo. If you Google for just a Japanese house, what they have on the floor is at the Tommy block. So they'll put two, three, five, 10 together. It's like that green floor that you see in many traditional hotels or photos. So I made a miniature version of that in the way. So newly added second floor of my room.
是的，那是一段有趣的回忆，不过我确实在我房间的中间弄了个洞。我父母总是很乐意我们进行各种项目。我本来想问你对此有什么感觉。我觉得他们当时并没有考虑到房子的未来销售价值之类的事情。事实上，结果证明人们对此很感兴趣。他们没有卖掉房子，但他们曾经把它出租，我觉得这种情况有些奇怪。也许我们可以在这里放点什么，结果证明这是个好决定，但他们非常支持我们去探索和犯错，这让我想起我们最初谈论的如何在大公司或大团队中不被困住。我们需要犯错和冒险，这是我父母一直鼓励的事情。这是个搞笑的故事。需要澄清的是，它是个"榻榻米"，像是一张薄垫子。榻榻米不是直接用来睡觉的床垫，而是用竹子制成的。如果你在网上搜索日本房子，你会看到地上一般铺的是榻榻米。他们会把两块、三块、五块、十块放在一起。这就像你在许多传统酒店或照片中看到的绿色地板。所以我在我房间新加的二楼上做了一个迷你版的榻榻米。
Seb, this was everything I was hoping to be. We covered so much ground, you, the company, things you've learned. I feel like we could do another follow up with just as many insights and lessons and stories, but other than that, two final questions. Working folks finding online, if they want to reach out, learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?
塞布，这次谈话达到了我的所有期望。我们讨论了很多内容，包括你、公司以及你的收获。我觉得我们可以再进行一次跟进，分享同样多的见解、经验和故事。不仅如此，我还有两个最后的问题。如果人们想要联系你或者了解更多信息，他们可以在哪里找到你？另外，听众怎样才能对你有所帮助？
Perfect. I am not so active on Twitter, I mostly read and find interesting ideas, but happy to see you there. LinkedIn is another one. I know some people who are very into X and Twitter actually don't like LinkedIn a lot, but I think both work and they're both, they will both have their place. So yeah, happy to connect and feel free to reach out, something that I love about the tech industry. You can just do things, just reach out to people and they'll probably help be helpful and help you that has certainly been the case with me, and I'm also happy to do that for anyone who has any question or wants to connect.
好的。我在推特上不太活跃，主要是阅读和寻找有趣的想法，不过很高兴在那里看到你。LinkedIn也是一个不错的平台。我知道一些非常喜欢使用X和推特的人其实不太喜欢LinkedIn，但我觉得这两个平台都不错，它们都有各自的位置。所以，很高兴能与你建立联系，随时欢迎联系我。这也是我喜欢科技行业的一点：你可以随时采取行动，与人们联系，他们大多会乐于帮助你。我自己就有这样的经历，我也很乐意帮助任何有问题或想要建立联系的人。
Amazing. Seb, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for hosting me. It was awesome. Happy to be here. It was awesome. It was my pleasure. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
太棒了。Seb，非常感谢你能来到这里。谢谢你款待我。这次经历真是太棒了。很高兴能在这里。这是我的荣幸。再见，大家。非常感谢你的收听。如果你觉得这期节目有价值，可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，这对其他听众找到我们的播客很有帮助。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at linyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.
您可以在 linyspodcast.com 网站上找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于此节目的信息。期待在下期节目中见到您。