TikTok vs Instagram | The TikTok Effect | 6
发布时间 2020-12-16 10:00:00 来源
摘要
With TikTok’s legal future hanging in the balance, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg hasn’t been shy about borrowing what works from the Chinese upstart and replicating it within Instagram. But his copycat feature Reels made more of a ripple than a splash when it debuted. For more on TikTok’s woes, we speak with Taylor Lorenz. She covers culture and technology for the New York Times and tells us why TikTok’s success can’t be easily duplicated and how Instagram’s Reels-focused redesign angered the platform’s long time influencers.Listen to new episodes 1 week early and to all episodes ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App https://wondery.app.link/businesswars.Support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Business Wars Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.
嘿，Prime会员们，你们可以在亚马逊音乐上免费收听《商业战争》节目。今天就下载该应用程序吧。
I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars. Today we conclude our TikTok vs Instagram series.
我是David Brown，欢迎收听《商战》。今天我们将结束我们的TikTok vs Instagram系列报道。
In Episode 5 we brought things up to the present, the final countdown on what seemed to be the end of TikTok came and went and the company remains.
在第5集中，我们把事情带到了现在，看似TikTok末日即将来临的最后倒计时已经结束了，但公司仍然存在。
The Department of Commerce is back down on enforcing President Trump's executive order to ban the app and it's unclear if President-elect Joe Biden will decide to pursue the issue. All the while, the Oracle deal to acquire the powerhouse app hangs in the balance.
商务部已经放弃执行特朗普总统禁止该应用程序的行政命令，而加强执行该命令还取决于即将上任的拜登总统是否决定继续追究这个问题。与此同时，甲骨文收购这个强大应用的交易仍悬而未决。
On the other side of things, Instagram is looking to pounce while TikTok is buried in legal issues. Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg hasn't been shy about borrowing what works from TikTok and applying it to Instagram. Q Reels, that's a copycat video feature within Instagram.
另一方面，当TikTok被卷入法律问题中时，Instagram正试图趁机抢占市场。Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg并不掩饰从TikTok借鉴成功要素并将其应用于Instagram。Q Reels是Instagram中的一项复制视频功能。
It's only about four months old at this point and has been pushed front and center amongst its 112 million active monthly users.
这个应用程序目前只有四个月的历史，已经成为了其一亿一千两百万活跃月度用户中的重头戏。
For more we're chatting with Taylor Lorenz, she covers culture and technology for the New York Times and she'll discuss the future of the short videos space and how it's evolving. Next.
接下来，我们与泰勒·洛伦兹进行了更多的交谈，她为《纽约时报》报道文化和科技，并将讨论短视频领域的未来及其发展趋势。
Hi, I'm Sarah Hagi, co-host of Wondries Podcast Scample Insers. In our recent two-part series, Three Weddings and a Funeral, we dive into the story of a German con man who built an entire life on fake names, lies and schemes. And the unlikely true-kind twist that brought this decades-long charade crashing down. Listen to Scample Insers on Amazon Music or ever you get your podcasts.
嗨，我是萨拉·哈吉，Wondries Podcast《Scample Insers》的联合主持人。在我们最近的两部曲《三场婚礼和一次葬礼》中，我们深入讲述了一位德国骗子的故事，他用假名字、谎言和计划来建立了整个生活。而一个不太可能的真实情况终结了这场长达数十年的欺骗行径。请在Amazon Music或您获取播客的任何地方收听《Scample Insers》。
Taylor Lorenz, welcome to Business Wars. Thanks for having me.
泰勒·洛伦茨，欢迎来到商业之战。感谢您的邀请。
What a year this has been for TikTok. It's my understanding you're writing a year-in-review piece for the New York Times focusing on TikTok. What are the major beats you'll be hitting for this piece? Why was 2020 such a prolific year for the app do you think?
今年是 TikTok 的精彩一年。我了解到您正在为《纽约时报》写一篇关于 TikTok 的年度回顾文章。您将在这篇文章中重点关注哪些内容？您认为为什么2020年是这款应用程序如此繁荣的一年呢？
Yeah, well, I think 2020 was the year that TikTok really transformed from a children's dance and lip-syncing app to a very diverse and rich social network that's home to all sorts of types of entertainment, commentary, activism, shopping, and more. So it's really the year I would say that TikTok broke out and became a mainstream social app.
嗯，我认为2020年是抖音真正从儿童舞蹈和口型同步应用转变为一个各种类型娱乐、评论、行动主义、购物等丰富多样的社交网络的一年。所以我会说，这是抖音突破并成为主流社交应用的年份。
I describe it as sort of a mix of Twitter and YouTube. It's almost like a video version of Twitter in the sense that there's so much communication about information, thoughts, trends, and things like that.
我觉得这个应用有点像推特和油管的组合。它几乎就是视频版的推特，因为有很多交流信息、想法、趋势等等。
You know, I think that was one of the reasons why it was so puzzling that the Trump administration was set at sites on this app. I mean, if it's something that basically a lot of kids were using, and of course that's morphed into being older young people as well these days. What was it about the app that really made it put it in the crosshairs of the current administration?
你知道吗，我认为这也是特朗普政府瞄准这个应用的缘由之一，让人感到困惑。我是说，如果这只是许多孩子在使用的东西，当然现在它已经演变为年轻人之间的事情。这个应用程序到底有什么使得它成为现任政府关注的焦点？
Yeah, well, it's still pretty baffling, and I think that people still wonder why it did find itself in the crosshairs, because obviously it's Chinese owned, which comes with a slew of very legitimate stuff. It's a legitimate security concerns, but of course, you know, there are plenty of other Chinese owned platforms, social platforms, gaming platforms, there's Chinese investment, all over Silicon Valley. So it definitely did seem sort of signal out.
嗯，这还是相当令人困惑的，我认为人们仍然想知道为什么它会成为焦点，因为显然它是中国拥有的，这意味着有大量合法的事情需要考虑。这是一个合法的安全问题，但当然，你知道，在硅谷有很多其他的中国拥有的平台、社交平台、游戏平台，还有中国的投资。所以它肯定看起来像是被特殊标记了出来。
Some people speculated that it had kind of ruffled Trump's feathers personally just given the fact that it became this hub for Gen Z activism, and they sort of notoriously waged a lot of anti-Trump campaigns on it.
有些人猜测，由于TikTok成为Gen Z活动的中心，而且他们在上面发起了很多反对特朗普的活动，这可能让他感到不悦。
So, wondering if you're referring to that Tulsa rally that President Trump tried to hold back in June, is that what you're talking about?
所以，你是在说特朗普总统试图在六月份举办的那场塔尔萨集会吗？我猜你是在谈论这个问题？
Yeah, so the Tulsa rally is just one notable, and probably the most viral and well-known example of this type of Gen Z TikTok activism,
嗯，所以塔尔萨集会只是一个引人注目的、可能是最具病毒性和知名度的Gen Z TikTok行动的一个例子。
which basically a lot of internet users kind of banded together to inflate the registration numbers on one of Trump's rallies. They tried to get campaign officials to brag about those inflated numbers, which they did, and then when lower turnout inevitably happened, it was sort of seen as like an Egon Trump's face.
基本上，很多互联网用户联合起来，在特朗普的一次集会上夸大注册人数。他们试图让竞选官员吹嘘这些夸大的数字，他们也确实这样做了，然后不可避免地出现了较低的人数，这被视为一种对特朗普的打击。
They've also done a series of other types of pranks. They've messed with his online stores. There was a whole TikTok campaign to de-rank his businesses in Google and rate all of his properties one star, leave false reviews. So, it's kind of been a thorn in the Trump administration's side.
他们还做了一系列其他类型的恶作剧。他们捣乱他的在线商店。还有一个完整的TikTok运动，降低他的企业在谷歌的排名，把他所有的房产都评为一星，并留下虚假的评论。所以，这对特朗普政府来说是一个刺在肉里的一根刺。
That's not to say that his reasons were purely petty. Again, it is Chinese owned, and there are a lot of very legitimate concerns that come with that around data privacy. But it's to focus solely on TikTok and not all of these other ways that China is sort of intertwined with our tech ecosystem, and to not focus on any data privacy issues specifically around Facebook. It's big as competitor, which has had huge data privacy concerns. I think a lot of people saw that as pretty hypocritical.
并不是说他的原因完全是小心眼的。再次强调，这是中国所有的，因此涉及到了很多合法的数据隐私问题。但是我们不能仅仅专注于抖音，忽视了中国在我们的科技生态系统中的其他种种纠葛，并且也不能忽视Facebook围绕某些数据隐私问题引起的关注。毕竟这是它的竞争对手，同样有着巨大的数据隐私问题。很多人认为这是非常虚伪的。
We should point out here that a lot given that it's so much as hanging in the balance, and it feels like it's changing minute by minute. We should, in the spirit of transparency, explain that we're recording this on Friday, December 4, 2020. As of this moment, where do things stand with the ban and the potential deal with Oracle as you understand it? Everything is in limbo.
我们应该在这里指出，情况十分紧要，仿佛每时每刻都在变化，所以有很多事情要考虑。为了透明度，我们应该解释一下，这个录音是在2020年12月4日星期五进行的。就你了解的禁令和与Oracle的潜在协议的情况而言，目前情况如何？一切都处于不确定状态。
There was this deadline, I believe it was on November 12th, and then TikTok basically had to send a siren up and be like, hey, are you guys still trying to ban us? They kind of had heard radio silence from the Trump administration, who I think was probably busy with election stuff. It's basically still in limbo. A couple TikTok creators actually sued the US government, saying that it violated, I believe, free speech and some other things, and they won that lawsuit. Of course, it can continue to be appealed. But yeah, everything is basically still in limbo now.
有这个截止日期，我想是11月12日，然后TikTok基本上不得不发出紧急信号，询问他们是否还在试图禁止我们。他们从特朗普政府那里听到了无声的回应，我认为他们可能忙于选举事宜。现在基本上仍处于不确定状态。一些TikTok创作者起诉了美国政府，称这违反了我认为是言论自由和其他一些事情，他们赢得了这场官司。当然，这场官司仍然可以上诉。但是现在一切基本上仍处于不确定状态。
I think with this administration, you just never know how things will go. Trump could send off a tweet tomorrow about this exact thing, and we just don't know. The fact that it's an executive order and that the administration is trying to force this sale, would something like that even be enforceable if it ultimately were to end up in court? Is there any consensus on that? Essentially not.
我觉得这个政府，你永远不知道事情会怎么发展。特朗普明天可能就会发一条关于这件事情的推文，我们就不知道会发生什么。这是一项行政命令，而政府正试图强制执行这项出售，如果最终出现在法庭上，那么像这样的行为是否可执行呢？是否有一致意见呢？基本上没有。
We have a very different situation than, for instance, India, where TikTok was banned as well, because we don't have government control of our app stores. Even if Trump was to ban the app, it would be up to Google and Apple and all of these platforms and other tech companies to basically comply with that ban. It's unclear that they would, especially knowing that he's an outgoing president at this point. It's very messy and unclear. It remains to be seen whether this is something that will all be wrapped up prior to January 20th.
我们的情况与印度完全不同，例如在印度，TikTok也被禁止了，因为我们没有对我们的应用商店进行政府控制。即使特朗普要禁止该应用程序，也取决于谷歌、苹果和所有这些平台和其他技术公司是否基本上遵守该禁令。目前尚不清楚他们是否会这样做，尤其是考虑到他目前是即将卸任的总统。这非常混乱而不清楚。尚不清楚在1月20日之前是否会解决这一问题。
Let's talk a little bit about its key rival here, Instagram. It hasn't been making quite as many headlines, of course, but there's still a huge player in this space, and certainly TikTok's big rival. If you were to say, what has the year been like this 2020 for Instagram? How would you wrap it up? They are struggling for cultural relevance.
让我们稍微谈谈TikTok的主要竞争对手Instagram。当然，Instagram没有引起太多关注，但它仍然是这个领域的重要玩家，绝对是TikTok的大竞争对手。如果你要说，2020年Instagram的表现如何？你会怎么总结？他们正努力获得文化上的重要性。
I would say, despite the numbers, it's kind of one of those things where everything on the surface looks fine, but underneath the hood, there's some real problems, which is just that the app is very crowded. They're kind of trying to mush a lot of things into one. They recently redesigned the app to highlight reels and shopping, but this kind of just angered all of the big influencers saying, oh, you're just trying to milk us for money. You don't care. You're making it harder for us to actually post. So it's been tumultuous. Also, they continue to lose ground to TikTok on a lot of key areas.
我觉得，尽管数字看起来还不错，但这是那种看上去一切都很顺利，但实际上却有一些真正的问题隐藏在背后的事情。主要是因为应用程序非常拥挤。他们试图将很多东西混合在一起。他们最近重新设计了应用程序，突出展示了Reels和购物功能，但这却激怒了所有大型影响力者，说：“哦，你们只是想从我们身上赚钱。你们不关心我们。你们让我们更难以实际发帖。”所以这一切都很动荡。此外，在许多关键领域，他们继续失去对TikTok的优势。
Well, a lot of this comes down as I think you were alluding to the user, right? Whether or not they actually accept this platform. Let's talk about those users. Who's the typical TikTok user versus say an Instagram user? Yeah, I mean, everything about TikTok is Gen Z. It's very much baked into its DNA. It's sort of an evolved social network from Instagram, whereas Instagram and these other social platforms are very clunky, and you have to go out and seek and find and follow people. And you really only see content from people you're subscribed to. TikTok breaks all of those norms. You don't need to follow a single person or be followed by a single person to have your content viewed by millions or to find really interesting content. So it's very different.
嗯，我认为你在暗示用户，对吧？让我们谈谈那些用户，谁是典型的TikTok用户，相比之下，Instagram用户呢？是的，我是说，TikTok的一切都是Gen Z。这种基因已经完全融入其中。它是一个从Instagram进化而来的社交网络，而Instagram和其他社交平台则非常笨拙，你必须去寻找和关注人们。你真正能看到的只是你订阅的人的内容。TikTok打破了所有这些规则。你不需要关注任何人或被任何人关注就可以让数百万人观看你的内容或发现真正有趣的内容。因此，它非常不同。
I would say the typical TikTok user is also more diverse than people think. There's doctors, lawyers, teachers, fashion people, small business owners. It's really runs the gamut and these people are creating really interesting content. Again, it's not just dance videos.
我觉得典型的TikTok用户比人们想象的更加多元化。有医生、律师、教师、时尚人士、小企业主等。真的是应有尽有，而且这些人正在创造非常有趣的内容。再次强调，这不仅限于舞蹈视频。
Well, you know, in a way, it sounds like an app for everyone. And yet, you know, you think about Instagram, which once upon a time was an app for anyone. And I'm curious, what is it that the typical Instagram user is like? They're not so much Gen Z. They tend to be older, I would imagine. Yeah, I mean, look, Gen Z users still generally have Instagram accounts. It's just, it's just not really for entertainment purposes. It's like sort of where you go to just have a public profile, you know, that your mom can follow. And, you know, there's still a lot of really incredible interesting communities on Instagram as well. It's just first and foremost, a social network, not an entertainment app the way that TikTok is. So I think that's been kind of the struggle for them. And they do have more older legacy users. That's undeniable. You know, I think everyone's parents and grandparents at this point are on Instagram. It's kind of like Facebook in that way.
你知道，从某种程度上看，它听起来像是一款适合所有人使用的应用。但是，你想想 Instagram，它曾经也是一款适合任何人使用的应用。我很好奇， Instagram 典型的用户是什么样的？他们不一定是 Gen Z，他们可能更年长些。是的，我的意思是，Gen Z 用户通常仍然有 Instagram 账号，只是它的用途不是为了娱乐。它更像是一个公共资料页，你的妈妈也可以关注。另外， Instagram 上仍然有许多非常有趣、有价值的社群。但是它首先是一个社交网络，而不是像 TikTok 一样的娱乐应用。所以我认为这是他们一直以来的困境。而且他们确实有更多年长的老用户，这是不可否认的。现在每个人的父母和祖父母都在 Instagram 上了，这有点像 Facebook。
Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries podcast American scandal. We bring to lie some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters and corporate fraud.. In our newest series, we look at a covert US operation that toppled a democratic government in Iran. In 1951, Muhammad Mosadek was elected Iran's prime minister. Mosadek was largely focused on strengthening his country's democratic institutions, but he also sought to nationalize Iran's oil industry, letting his country citizens profit from their own natural resources.
嗨，我是林赛·格雷厄姆，Wondries播客《美国丑闻》的主持人。我们呈现美国历史上一些最大的争议，包括总统的谎言、环境灾害和企业欺诈。在我们最新的系列中，我们将探讨一项秘密的美国行动，颠覆了伊朗的民主政府。1951年，穆罕默德·穆萨德克当选伊朗总理。穆萨德克主要关注于加强该国的民主制度，但他也寻求国有化伊朗的石油工业，让他的国民从自己的自然资源中获利。
But as Mosadek carried out his sweeping reforms, US officials grew concerned that Iran would soon fall under the sway of communists. And with the blessing of America's top political leaders, the CIA launched a mission to oust Mosadek from power, the campaign involved bribes, psychological warfare and staged riots. That all led to a showdown that promised to reshape the Middle East for decades.
然而，当莫萨代克实行他的全面改革时，美国官员开始担心伊朗很快会落入共产主义的影响之下。在美国最高政治领导人的祝福下，中央情报局启动了一项行动，意在推翻莫萨代克的权力，这场运动包括贿赂、心理战和策划骚乱。所有这些都导致了一场拼杀，承诺为未来几十年重塑中东。
Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts, and you can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondry app.
在任何你能找到播客的地方关注美国丑闻，而且你可以在亚马逊音乐或Wondry应用上无广告收听。
Taylor Lorenz is with the New York Times and she covers social media and online life. You know, you think about the reason that Instagram was originally thought of, at least within Facebook by Mark Zuckerberg, as a kind of rival for TikTok. Why not? What disadvantages would there be just setting up something new as TikTok did in its own day, right? I mean, if you want to capture a younger generation, why not go to something that's all new and that doesn't have that Instagram vibe, if you know what I'm saying?
泰勒·洛伦兹是《纽约时报》的记者，她主要关注社交媒体和网上生活。你想想，Instagram最初被认为是Facebook内部马克·扎克伯格对抗TikTok的竞争对手，有什么不好呢？就像TikTok一样，在当时创立一些全新的东西为何会有劣势呢？我是说，如果你想吸引年轻人，为什么不去选择一些全新的东西，没有Instagram的氛围，你懂的。
Yeah, I mean, well, TikTok is very all new. I think nothing about TikTok has an Instagram vibe, and I think that's why it's so appealing to Facebook and Instagram. The way that Facebook has traditionally innovated is through acquisitions. Mark Zuckerberg did not found Instagram. He acquired it for a billion dollars. They famously tried to acquire Snapchat. And when they couldn't, they basically cloned Snapchat with an Instagram by making stories and disappearing messages.
嗯，我觉得TikTok非常新潮。我认为TikTok和Instagram的氛围完全不同，这就是为什么Facebook和Instagram会被它吸引的原因。Facebook一向是通过收购来进行创新的。Instagram并不是由马克·扎克伯格创立的。他花了十亿美元收购了这个公司。他们也曾试图收购Snapchat。但当他们失败后，就通过在Instagram上制作故事和临时消息的方式来克隆Snapchat。
So I think with TikTok, you know, TikTok is owned by this massively powerful Chinese conglomerates. Zuckerberg knows that there's no way to acquire it. Facebook did launch a standalone app that it was supposed to be a TikTok competitive. They actually use TikTokers in the marketing materials. It failed spectacularly. And so now they're kind of trying to jam some of that functionality into Instagram. But when you're one of these big legacy tech companies built on sort of this old model of social media, it can be hard to innovate.
所以我认为，有了TikTok，你知道，TikTok是由这个极其强大的中国企业集团拥有。扎克伯格知道没有办法收购它。Facebook确实推出了一个独立的应用程序，应该要与TikTok竞争。他们实际上在营销材料中使用了TikTokers。但是它失败得很惨。所以现在他们正在尝试将一些这些功能集成到Instagram中。但是，当你是一个建立在社交媒体旧模式之上的大型传统科技公司时，创新可能很困难。
So we'll see. We'll see indeed. And I guess one of the things that Instagram's tried to do was incorporate reels. This is the TikTok copycat that's within the Instagram app. Why is that not sufficient?
所以我们拭目以待。的确如此。我想 Instagram 试图做的一件事是将 Reels 包含在内。这是 Instagram 应用程序内的 TikTok 抄袭品。为什么不够呢？
Well, reels kind of fails every test as a TikTok copycat. I wrote about this in a piece this summer with Brian Chen, a colleague of mine. And you know, it just doesn't offer any of the functionality. It's kind of they seem to have a baseline understanding of what TikTok is, which is short form video, but it doesn't mimic any of the discovery of TikTok, which makes TikTok so compelling.
嗯，Reels在模仿TikTok方面表现不佳，我和我的同事布莱恩·陈在本夏季的一篇文章中谈到了这一点。你知道的，它根本没有提供任何功能。它似乎对TikTok的基本理解是短视频，但它没有模仿TikTok任何发现的功能，这是使TikTok如此引人注目的原因。
You know, you still have to follow people generally to see their reels. And reels just doesn't offer any of the editing tools, for instance, the duet feature. The duet feature is kind of almost like a quote tweet of TikTok. It's the way that users reply and interact with each other. And you know, it's a huge part of the community and what makes the app so engaging. And there's no way to do that on reels. It's just a million examples like that. And so it's early days, you know, we'll see how many of those features they do end up cloning.
你知道，要查看别人的短视频，你还是需要先关注他们。而且短视频没有提供像合唱功能这样的编辑工具。合唱功能有点像TikTok上的引用推文。这是用户相互回复和互动的方式。你知道，这是社区的重要组成部分，也是应用程序如此吸引人的原因之一。而在短视频中是无法实现的。就像这样的例子还有一百万个。所以现在还很早，我们将看到他们最终会克隆多少这样的功能。
But this is the thing about tech today is that and it's that there really aren't enormous barriers to entry. If you want to be an Amazon, you would you imagine yourself as that next whatever you nothing stopping you really. In a sense, except adoption, right? I mean, in theory, there's nothing stopping reels from taking all of those elements.
但今天的科技是这样的，它真的没有太大的门槛。如果你想成为亚马逊，你可以想象成为下一个类似的企业，没有真正阻碍你。在某种程度上，除了采用率，对吧？换句话说，从理论上讲，没有任何东西可以阻止 reels 去获得所有这些元素。
I mean, it's not like Instagram hasn't copied TikTok in the past, right? I think it's more than that. I think it's the ethos of the platform. And again, it breaks. It's so antithetical to what TikTok is built or what Instagram has traditionally built on, which is the follow graph. You have to sort of follow content to see it in your feed. TikTok does not have any of that. It's all based around this really sophisticated recommendation algorithm.
我是说，Instagram在过去复制了TikTok，对吧？我认为问题不仅仅在于这个。我认为它涉及到平台的精神。再说一遍，它更加不同。它与TikTok所建立的或者Instagram传统上建立的，也就是关注图表，截然相反。你必须关注内容才能在动态中看到它。而TikTok没有这些。它全部基于这个非常复杂的推荐算法。
And the purpose of the app is so different. It's just a very radically different platform than Instagram. So yeah, they can kind of try to jam it in. But it's kind of like what did they say putting lipstick on a pig? You know, it's not what Instagram was built for.
这个应用程序的目的非常不同。它与Instagram完全不同。所以，他们可能会试图将其强行整合在一起。但这有点像“给猪抹口红”，你知道的，这不是Instagram的初衷。
Instagram, like you said, they they're, you know, it's owned by Facebook. It's a hugely powerful tech company. They have all the resources in the world. They might successfully be able to rebuild all these features and reimagine app..
就像你所说的那样，“Instagram”实际上是Facebook公司拥有的，这是一家非常强大的科技公司，拥有全球最为丰富的资源。他们可能会成功地重建所有这些功能，重新构想应用程序。
You know, I have to give Instagram some credit because they did cleave off a huge portion of Snapchat's user base by doing sort of something very similar. Sorry, I'm still writing down lipstick on a pig here.
你知道，我必须要赞美Instagram，因为他们通过做了类似的事情，成功地挤掉了Snapchat的大部分用户群。对不起，我还在画蛇添足。
I'll have to remember that Instagram has what 112 million active monthly users last metrics I saw and TikTok has 110 million active monthly users. So they're right on their heels. I mean, what's TikTok getting right here?
我得记住，据我上次看到的最新数据，Instagram有1.12亿个活跃月度用户，TikTok则有1.1亿个活跃月度用户。所以他们紧随其后。我是说，TikTok在这里做得对了什么？
Yeah, and I've seen some numbers too, or you know, time spent on TikTok even surpasses Instagram. I think I mean, again, I think TikTok really did bring to light all the ways that Instagram failed to innovate before TikTok came along. I think they were resting on their laurels a little bit. And the platform had had stagnated.
嗯，我也看过一些数字，或者你知道，花在TikTok上的时间甚至超过了Instagram。我觉得，是的，我觉得TikTok真正揭示了Instagram在TikTok出现之前未能创新的所有方式。我认为他们有点满足于自己过去的成就。而且该平台已经停滞不前了。
But you know, it was really hard, for instance, for new influencers and power users and just average people to gain a following, you know, if you're a small business on Instagram, there's really no way to reach a mass amount of people without buying ads.
你知道的，对于新的影响者、粉丝和普通人来说，要获得关注真的很难，你知道的，如果你是Instagram上的小型企业，想要触达大量人群真的没有其他方法，只能购买广告。
And I think that TikTok really cracked the problem of distribution where theoretically anybody can go on there and, you know, their posts can be seen by millions. And that just wasn't an opportunity that Instagram was offering.
我认为TikTok真正解决了分发问题，理论上任何人都可以在上面发布内容，并且他们的帖子可以被数百万人看到。而Instagram并没有提供这样的机会。
That said Instagram has, you know, more robust shopping tools. And I think that they're definitely seeking to become more of an e-commerce powerhouse shopping is more heavily integrated into the Chinese version of TikTok. And so, you know, they're starting to make moves in that area as well. But, you know, I think e-commerce is a huge opportunity for both of these platforms. And I think they're going to be competing on it a lot in the next year.
也就是说，Instagram有更多强大的购物工具。我认为他们一定想成为更强大的电商平台。抖音的中国版本更加强调购物，因此他们也开始在这方面采取行动。但是，我认为电商对于这两个平台来说都是一个巨大的机遇。我认为，在接下来的一年里，它们将在这方面展开激烈的竞争。
One of the things that I'm picking up on you saying is that there's a whole lot less restriction when it comes to content creation and how many eyeballs will actually ultimately see that.
我听到你说的一件事是，在内容创作和最终观众数量方面，限制要少得多。
And that's a little bit different from the way that a lot of influencers have operated in the past. Where's their place in all of this? I mean, how important is their role on these respective platforms? Instagram versus TikTok?
这有点不同于过去很多影响者运作的方式。他们在其中的位置是什么？我的意思是，他们在这些不同平台上的角色有多重要？比如在Instagram和TikTok？
Well, on Instagram, again, it's stagnated. It was very hard. I mean, you did not see people in 2018 really overnight gaining fame through Instagram.
嗯，在Instagram上，情况又出现了停滞。这非常困难。我的意思是，2018年你并没有看到很多人在Instagram上一夜之间变得名声大噪。
It just wasn't happening because there is no discovery mechanism that you're not fed content by people that you don't follow really outside of maybe like the explore page, whereas that's the whole point of TikTok.
这种情况并不会发生，因为除了像“探索页面”这样的可能性，你是不会接收到你不关注的人投放内容的，而这正是TikTok存在的意义所在。
I think when you saw this new generation of kids hoping to build careers as influencers and creators, TikTok was kind of a fresh ground for them to seize. And so, yeah, I think that it's, you know, it's provided a huge opportunity and it's made Instagram now have to revamp the way that they work with creators.
我认为，当你看到这一代希望成为影响者和创作者的孩子们时，TikTok对他们来说是一个全新的发展空间。因此，我认为它提供了巨大的机会，使Instagram现在不得不重新调整他们与创作者合作的方式。
I think that they now prioritize TikTok talent. They attempt to recruit TikTok talent. Some of TikTok's top talent is also huge on Instagram. They have to sort of cater to this new class of celebrities that weren't grown on their app.
我觉得他们现在更注重TikTok的人才。他们试图招募TikTok的人才。一些TikTok的顶尖人才在Instagram上也非常受欢迎。他们必须去迎合这些并没有在他们的应用中成长的新一代名人。
You probably know one of the biggest viral stars of this year who was listening to Fleetwood Max Dreams and skateboarding and drinking cranberry juice. I guess that's entertainment. Who is that Nathan Apidaka? Is that, do you know who I'm talking about?
你可能知道今年最大的病毒性明星之一，他正在听 Fleetwood Max Dreams，滑板并喝蔓越莓汁。我猜那算是娱乐。那是谁，Nathan Apidaka吗？你知道我在说谁吗？
Yes, of course.
当然可以。
So, how does that story speak to the power of the platforms, power the platform to sort of grant overnight success? And what is it that people find so riveting about something like that?
那么，这个故事怎样反映了平台的强大力量，强大到可以让人们一夜之间走红呢？人们对这样的事情为什么会如此着迷呢？
Well, I think we've seen this in the past and it used to happen on other platforms more where people are kind of plucked from the pool of users and kind of turned into a meme.
嗯，我觉得我们过去见过这种情况，它在其他平台上更为普遍，人们被从用户池中挑选出来，并被转化为梗。
I remember when there was Alex from Target or Dam Daniel or some of these other people, the selfie kid. A lot of times social platforms, people kind of jump on the bandwagon. They find an entertaining or sympathetic user and everyone kind of coalesces around it. Usually it's something, someone pretty wholesome that everyone can love or sometimes it's someone that everyone can hate on.
我记得有时候会有一些像“Target男孩”Alex 或者“Dam Daniel”或者其他些人，比如那个自拍小孩。很多时候社交平台上的人们会跟风，找到一个有趣或令人同情的用户，大家都会聚集在一起。通常情况下，这是因为他们是大家都喜欢的可爱的人，有时候也会是大家都想骂的人。
And TikTok again is just expert at doing this because the whole platform is basically built to pluck the most entertaining content from obscurity and blasted out to millions of users.
TikTok在这方面确实很擅长，因为整个平台基本上是建立在从不知名的内容中提取最有趣的内容，并向数百万用户推送的基础上。
So, I think, yeah, he very quickly became a meme and the more people that engaged and watched his videos, the more that video was shown to other people. And TikTok also has a very participatory culture on like Instagram.
所以我觉得，他很快就成为了一个“梗”，而且越来越多的人参与和观看他的视频，这个视频也就被展示给了更多的人。而TikTok和Instagram一样，也有一种非常参与的文化。
So when you see a great Instagram, you don't want to recreate that Instagram.. But when you see a great TikTok, you want to recreate the TikTok. You see a funny challenge. You see this guy drinking cranberry juice on a skateboard and you go out and you try to do your version of that video. Maybe you put a funny spin on it. I saw a guy with a pumpkin on his head drinking the pumpkin spice latte doing the same thing. So I think it sparks creativity in a way that Instagram just hasn't been able to do.
当你看到一个很棒的Instagram账户时，你不想去模仿他们，但当你看到一个很棒的TikTok视频时，你想去模仿。你可能看到有趣的挑战，例如这个人在滑板上喝蔓越莓汁，你也会去尝试做出你自己的版本。或许你会加入一些有趣的元素。我曾经看到有一个人戴着南瓜头，喝南瓜香料拿铁，在做同样的事情。因此我认为，TikTok能够激发出Instagram所做不到的创造力。
And yet as we think about the future, I think back on those sort of turning points for some of these other platforms. And without question, I think most people would point to, for instance, 2016 for Facebook and how politics became such a big part of the conversation that was around Facebook. It wasn't that it wasn't considered to be sort of an older platform by 2016. It was just that politics kind of exacerbated that sense of it sort of having moved on from what it once was.
然而，当我们思考未来时，我想回忆一下其他平台的这种转折点。毫无疑问，大多数人会指向例如2016年的Facebook，政治如何成为了围绕Facebook的谈话的一个重要部分。并不是说到了2016年，人们就不再认为它是一个旧平台了。只是政治加剧了它已经不再是过去那个样子的感觉。
Now, you think about TikTok today and you think about how you have on the ground people who are definitely taking their politics to the platform. You have people like Claudia Conway, Kelly and Conway's daughter and other kids of celebrities and notable influencers themselves using TikTok as a platform to speak out and make their voices heard on politics. We saw a lot of this during the Black Lives Matter protests. And I wonder what do you see for the future of these platforms and in particular the effect of politics?
现在，你想到TikTok，你会想到有一些人正在该平台上发表他们的政治观点。例如，Claudia Conway、Kelly Conway的女儿以及其他名人和有影响力的人的孩子也在使用TikTok来表达自己的政治声音。在Black Lives Matter抗议期间，我们看到了很多这样的情况。我想知道，你认为这些平台未来将如何发展，特别是在政治方面的影响。
Yeah, well, I think young people have shown such a willingness to engage in politics, especially with the Trump presidency. There's never a shortage of things to talk about, I think, in terms of political stuff online that's happening. And so you see TikTok is just becoming more of an emergent place for political discussion. Obviously activism is a part of that.
嗯，我认为年轻人表现出了一种非常愿意参与政治的意愿，尤其是在特朗普总统任期内。在线政治话题永远没有短缺，我认为可以谈论的事情很多。因此，你会看到TikTok正在成为一个更为突出的政治讨论场所。显然，活动主义是其中的一部分。
But you also, I wrote about the rise of these Gen Z TikTok pundits. Basically, you have the conservative high-pouse, the Republican high-pouse, the liberal high-pouse. And I think that it reminds me of the nascent YouTube commentary community where you saw big YouTubers on the left and right emerging by pushing political agendas.
你也许已经看到了我写的有关这些 Gen Z TikTok 评论员崛起的文章。基本上，你可以找到保守派的高层、共和党的高层和自由派的高层。我认为这让我想起了刚刚起步的 YouTube 评论社区，在那里你可以看到左右两派的大 YouTuber 推动政治议程而崭露头角。
Of course, with political information comes a lot of misinformation. And TikTok is starting to struggle with that. They crack down on the Q&N conspiracy stuff this summer and have banned a lot of accounts related to that. But you have members of the conservative high-pouse and Republican high-pouse pushing disinformation on election fraud and Q&N and other conspiracy theories. And I think TikTok is really, you know, struggle to tamp down on that just the way that Facebook has and continues to. So I think that will be the next battle front for the company.
当然，政治信息总伴随着大量的错误信息。而TikTok正在开始应对这个问题。他们在今年夏天打击了Q&N阴谋论，禁止了许多与之相关的账户。但你仍然可以看到保守派和共和党高层成员在传播关于选举舞弊、Q&N及其他阴谋论的不实信息。我认为TikTok会真正面临这种问题，就像Facebook一样，他们在继续应对这个问题。所以我认为这将是该公司的下一个战场。
Look into your crystal ball. What do you think 2021 is going to be like for TikTok and Instagram? Would you go out and a limb?
看看你的水晶球。你认为2021年对于TikTok和Instagram会怎么样？你会冒险猜测吗？
Oh, God, I think it's just going to be crazier and more hectic and more competitive. I think that, you know, Instagram is a very competitive intense company and they have their sights set on taking down TikTok. And I think TikTok continues to innovate and grow. And again, we'll just be a bigger part of our national political conversations, cultural conversations. It's obviously what it's done in terms of upending the music industry cannot be overstated. So I think we'll continue to see it kind of impacting every area of our culture.
哦天啊，我认为它将会更加疯狂、更加忙碌、更加竞争激烈。我认为，你知道，Instagram是一家非常竞争激烈的公司，他们的目标是打倒TikTok。我认为，TikTok不断创新和发展。而且，我们将成为国家政治、文化对话的更大一部分。它显然颠覆了音乐产业，这一点不能被夸大。因此，我认为我们将继续看到它影响我们文化的每一个领域。
Taylor Lorenz is with the New York Times and she covers social media and online life. Taylor, thanks so much for taking time to talk with us on business wars.
泰勒·洛伦兹是《纽约时报》的记者，她着重报道社交媒体和在线生活。泰勒，在这里非常感谢你抽出时间和我们谈话。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你邀请我来。
On the next episode, we're going to be revisiting one of our favorite series just in time for the holidays. That's right. We're heading back to Toiland with Hasbro vs. Mattel. But as these two kingpins will discover, the toy business isn't all my little pony. Turns out making children's dreams come true. Is a cutthroat business.
下一集，我们将在假期来临之际重温我们最喜欢的系列之一。没错，我们要回到Toiland，看看哈斯布罗和玛特尔之间的竞争。但是，这两个巨头会发现，玩具行业并不仅仅是小马宝莉。原来实现孩子们的梦想是一个残酷的生意。
Hey, prime members, you can binge every episode of business wars ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com/survey. From Wondery, this is episode six of TikTok vs. Instagram for business wars. I'm your host David Brown, Laurie Galleretta, produce this episode. Karen Low is our senior producer and editor, edited and produced by Emily Frost. Sound designed by Kyle Randall. Our associate producer is Kate Young, our executive producer is our Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Lewy, created by Ernan Lopez for Wondery.
嘿，亚马逊会员们！您可以在Amazon Music上免广告地看每一集的商业大战。今天就下载Amazon Music应用程序吧！或者您也可以在Wondery Plus和Apple Podcasts上免费收听。在您离开之前，请通过完整短期调查告诉我们关于您自己的情况，网址是Wondery.com/survey。这是Wondery公司的第六集“抖音VS Instagram”的商业大战。我是您的主持人David Brown，本集由Laurie Galleretta制作。Karen Low是我们的高级制片人和编辑，该节目由Emily Frost编辑和制作。声音设计由Kyle Randall完成。我们的副制片人是Kate Young，执行制片人为Jenny Lauer Beckman和Marshall Lewy，该节目是由Ernan Lopez为Wondery创作的。