613 - Andrew Yang Saves the Planet
发布时间 2020-07-28 15:00:00 来源
摘要
I was really nervous for this one and giddy afterward. I've had a thousand questions for Andrew Yang, an American entrepreneur and former presidential candidate for the past year, and he answered all of them. We talk UBI, behind the scenes of the campaign, law enforcement, career advice, and the most frustrating parts of running for President. Plus, will he run again?
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This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host. This is the James Altiger Show. Today on the James Altiger Show.
这并不是一档普通的商业播客，他也不是一位普通的主持人。这就是詹姆斯·阿尔泰格尔的节目。今天在詹姆斯·阿尔泰格尔节目里。
Just had a great interview with Andrew Yang. I learned so much. We spoke about the campaign. Things I had no idea about. Things I had never heard him say before and I listened to every single podcast and interview that Andrew Yang's done and I've never heard him say some of these things. We spoke about the UBI, particularly how a UBI would work in today's world. We spoke about police reform, politics reform, economic reform, education. Is he going to run in 2024 and all the ups and downs along the way during this campaign and the career and so on?
我刚跟Andrew Yang进行了一次非常棒的面试，学到了很多东西。我们谈论了竞选活动，其中有些是我之前不知道的内容。他说的一些话之前我从来没有听过，可是我听过他做过的每一个播客和采访。我们谈到了普惠基本收入，特别是在当今世界中，普惠基本收入会怎样发挥作用。我们也讨论了警察改革、政治改革、经济改革和教育问题。他会在2024年参加选举吗？在此期间的所有起伏，以及事业上的变化等等。
So here it goes. I'll listen to Andrew Yang. So Jay, you want to start recording? Thank you, Jay.
那就开始吧，我会听安德鲁·杨的。那么，杰伊，你想开始录制吗？谢谢你，杰伊。
So Andrew, that was a good, you called Jay by his first name. I like the kind of instinctive persuasion techniques. It always is endearing to call people by their name. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Jay, I'm kidding. Listen, we're both computer science majors who took different directions in their career and actually that was the first thing I wanted to ask you about, which is before we get into all the UBI automation, presidential campaign. Why'd you quit being a lawyer? And I get it, but why'd you do it and did that was everybody upset at you?
安德鲁，你刚才真棒，称呼杰伊的名字。我喜欢那种直觉式的说服技巧。用别人的名字相处总是很讨人喜欢。哦，谢谢。我很感激。杰伊，开玩笑的。听着，我们都是计算机科学专业的学生，但是我们走了不同的职业方向。实际上，这是我想问你的第一件事，在谈到所有的UBI、自动化和总统竞选之前，你为什么要放弃律师职业？我理解，但你为什么这样做？那些人都生气了吗？
My parents were not happy, but I left for two reasons. Number one, someone told me a while ago that if you are working someplace, you should try and find the person whose life you want. And there was not someone in that farm where I was like, ooh, I really want to be that person, not a knock on them, but that just wasn't an aspiration. And the second thing is the work made me feel like I was becoming a negative person, where if you're a good lawyer, you're always thinking about the worst that can happen. And that was a depressing way to spend your time. It's like, what's the shittiest thing that can happen to these deal parties? And I thought I'd rather try and make something positive happen than catalog negative possibilities. And so those two things drove me out in about five months.
我的父母非常不开心，但我有两个原因离开了。第一，有人告诉我，如果你在某个地方工作，你应该尽力找到你想要的生活方式的人。在那个农场，我没有遇到像“哦，我真的想成为那个人”的人，这并不是对他们的贬低，只是我没有这样的抱负。第二件事是工作让我觉得自己变得消极，因为如果你是一名好律师，你总是在想最坏的情况可能发生的事情。而这是一种令人沮丧的方式来度过你的时间。就像，“这些交易各方最糟糕的事情是什么？” 我想我宁愿尝试让一些积极的事情发生，而不是记录负面的可能性。所以这两件事在大约五个月内驱使我离开了。
And so when you were thinking about running for president, was there someone running, or was there a president whose life you wanted to be like?
当你考虑竞选总统时，当时有人在竞选或者有一位总统的生活方式是你所向往的吗？
That's a great question. I'm not sure there was like a role model in that sense. I mean, I was driven to run for president, in part because I felt like there was a real need for a different set of ideas or solutions. And I thought that I had a chance to advance them. And I was unfortunately confident that no one currently in the political universe was going to advance them. So it really was like an entrepreneur in a startup where you see a gap in the market, and then you want to try and fill it. I saw a gap in the ideas market, and I wanted to fill it. And running for president seemed like the most effective way. But I confess, I can't really think of someone I was trying to model or pattern myself after.
那是个很好的问题。我不确定在那个意义上是否有榜样。我的意思是，我被推动参选总统，部分原因是因为我觉得需要一个不同的思想或解决方案。而我认为我有机会推动它们。并且我非常确信，目前政治舞台上没有人会进步这些想法。所以这真的像是一位创业者在一个新公司里看到市场的空缺，然后想填补它。我看到了思想市场上的空缺，我想填补它。参加总统竞选似乎是最有效的方式。但我得承认，我无法想到有人我想要模仿或效仿。
So when you were talking to friends, family, supporters about making the decision to run, I'm sure a lot of people said, Andrew, what the hell are you doing? Like there's no way you're going to win. No one has ever won with this sort of blah, blah, blah, whatever reasons they had. How did you kind of internally get yourself ready so that you could take a run seriously?
当你向朋友、家人和支持者谈起决定参选的时候，我相信有很多人会问："安德鲁，你到底在干什么？你不可能赢。以前从来没有人以这种方式赢过，等等一系列理由。"你是如何在内心中准备自己，以便认真参选的呢？
Yeah, well, it really was again like a startup where it was almost levels where I never had this conversation where it's like, oh, are you ready to be president, like scrutinized in the public or whatnot? Because that was just so distant. Like if that was letter T or U in the alphabet, I was like, look, I'm at letter A, let me just try and get to letter B or C. Which is I think the way most startups operate because initially of so many problems to solve. To me, it was always about the next series of letters than it was that I'm going to be president. Because realistically, it's not like I thought that there was a 51% chance of my becoming president in 2020. If you sat me down and thought what the chances were, I'd be like, well, it's unlikely. So the biggest thing I had to prepare myself really was for a lot of rejection and a lot of time away from my family and on the road in New Hampshire, Iowa or other places. And it felt like a startup where it's like, okay, one thing I thought was better than most startups is and you've done a lot of them yourself, James, is that when you start a company, you have no idea what the time frame is going to be really. And so you can say, hey, I'm trying to get this done, but you know, you might be in it for five, 10 years, more longer. Whereas running for president, I said, okay, I know when the primary is, I know when the election is. So I need to gear myself up for, let's call it two and a half years of pounding the pavement and kicking ass and making the case and trying to get people on board.
嗯，这实际上就像是一次初创公司的经历，我从来没有过这样的对话，比如：“你准备好当总统了吗？”或者受到公众的审视之类的。因为那个时候对我来说是非常遥远的事情。如果那时字母表中的T或U代表这件事情，我就在字母表中的A处，我只是试着去达到B或C。我认为这就是大多数初创公司运作的方式，因为一开始需要解决很多问题。对我而言，重要的永远是下一组字母，而不是我将成为总统。因为现实中并不像我认为在2020年我有51%的机会成为总统。如果让我坐下来思考几率，我肯定会说：“嗯，不太可能。”所以我需要做好自己随时可能会面对拒绝以及很长时间离开家人在新罕布什尔州、爱荷华州或其他地方的准备。这就像一次初创公司，你从来不知道时间框架会是多少。你可以说：“我尝试着把这件事做好”，但你可能会花费五年、十年或更长时间。而竞选总统的活动，我会说：“好的，我知道初选和选举的时间是什么时候。”所以我需要为两年半的艰苦奋斗、攥紧拳头、为自己辩护和争取人们的支持做好准备。
And so that's that that was actually comforting to me because I was like, frankly, if you're an entrepreneur and I could say this to you, James, it's like, could you do just about anything under the sun for two and a half years if you knew that that was the time frame?
那么这就是这样子的，实际上这让我感到安慰，因为我想，如果你是一位创业者，我可以对你说，詹姆斯，如果你知道这是时间的范围，你能在两年半的时间内做任何事吗？
I don't know actually two and a half years does feel like a long time to brutalize yourself in in the public, in the media, in, you know, with people who are trying to just tear you down every single day or build you up because there's also a lot of, you had a lot of excited supporters, including me for a good chunk of that.
其实我不知道，在公众场合，在媒体上，在那些试图每天撕咬或是支持你的人们面前，两年半确实感觉很长。毕竟，你有很多兴奋的支持者，包括我在内。
So, five, man, thank you. Yeah, I five. It was zoom. It was probably more than I reckoned on in terms of the brutality. But in day one, when it was like, can you check your personal needs at the door for like, you know, a couple of years for the sake of Western civilization, and, you know, I felt like I could. Now, it turns out that the process is more human than you might have thought.
所以，五天，谢谢。嗯，我参与了五天的活动，这是一个视频会议。它可能比我预计的更加残酷，但在第一天，当我们被告知可以为了西方文明的利益，在门口检查个人需求，为了这个目标，我感觉自己能够做到。现在，结果显示这个过程比你想象的更加人性化。
So like in month 18, when you're, you know, shivering in, you know, Iowa, no one showing up then, you know, like, you know, like it's not always easy. But to your point, though, the Yang Yang always kept me going because, you know, like when you get out there and there were people excited to see you, it's incredibly invigorating. And like I'm still grateful for it.
就在大约18个月的时候，当你在爱荷华州颤抖着，没有人出现，你知道，你知道，就像这样并不总是那么容易。但是说到你的观点，羊羊始终推动着我前行，因为当你到那里时，有很多人对你感到兴奋，这真的很振奋人心。而且我仍然很感激这一点。
Yeah, no, the, I want to talk about the Yang Yang in a second. But, and of course, I'm going to always repeat, I'm going to talk about the issues, particularly since some of these issues that you brought up in the campaign have accelerated so fast, obviously, that they, they, they, they're extremely fascinating in the world we're heading into.
嗯，好的，我稍后要谈谈关于杨杨的事情。但是，当然，我会一直重复，我会讨论这些问题，尤其是因为你在竞选中提出的一些问题已经如此快速地增加，显然，它们在我们进入的世界中非常有趣。
But was there a moment when you were like depressed? Like you mentioned shivering by yourself in Iowa, where you were like, what the hell did I think I was doing?
你有没有感到过压抑或者沮丧啊？比如你提到在爱荷华州瑟瑟发抖时，会不会觉得自己在干嘛啊？
There were some depressing times on the trail for sure. The, a couple that call that I recall the early days of the campaign were very, very hard because I declared an early 2018 and there was zero attention being paid to the 2020 race in 2018.
在那条路上确实有一些令人沮丧的时刻。其中我记得最清楚的是竞选早期的一对日子非常非常难熬，因为我在2018年早早声明参选，而2018年对于2020年的竞选来说几乎没有人关注。
So I would go out there and I would literally show up to a coffee shop in New Hampshire and there'd be like one person there for my event or, you know, I'd, I'd go to a fair in Iowa and there's no one knew who the heck I was and just no one cared about a race that was, you know, a year and a half or two years away. So, so those were very difficult times.
我会到新罕布什尔州的咖啡店出现，实际上只有一个人参加我的活动，或者我会去爱荷华州的农贸集市，没有任何人知道我是谁，也没有人关心一场将在一年半或两年后举行的竞选。那时候非常困难。
I, you know, some people I'm close to, like didn't support the campaign and so you're like really and you can kind of see it where like if your friend runs for president and you just don't think it's realistic, like many of my friends just got on board and said, okay, Andrew, I think you're crazy, but let's go. And then some others did not get on board and that's like hard to take, you know, as a human.
我知道有些我很亲近的人并不支持这场竞选，你就会感到很困惑，有时候你能看出来。如果你的朋友竞选总统，而你觉得不现实的话，很多朋友可能跟着你一起说：“好吧，Andrew，我觉得你疯了，但是我们赞同你”。可是有一些人并没有跟上，这对人来说很难接受。
So, so I think the early days were very hard. So anyone who supported me early on, thank you, thank you, thank you. And then there were some challenging periods like in the middle where I felt like I was like letting folks down somehow. You just get just get so charged up that like if you feel like the campaign's not poised to accomplish its goals, like it's actually really hard sometimes and down the stretch I felt that sometimes.
我觉得初期非常的艰难。所以，任何早期支持我的人，谢谢您们，谢谢谢谢！然后，在中间的某些时期，我感觉自己有点让人失望了。你会变得非常充满激情，如果你感觉这次活动没有成功的可能性，有时真的非常难受。到了最后，我有时也会有这种感觉。
Well, and it's interesting because I feel like you mentioned before there was this, there was this gaping hole in the market of ideas and I like the way you express that because in a sense you were running two campaigns in parallel.
嗯，这很有趣，因为我觉得你之前提到过市场上存在一种巨大的思想空缺，我喜欢你表达的方式，因为从某种意义上讲，你同时在进行两个竞选活动。
One was a campaign for yourself to be president and that goes through the same rules that everyone else is going through at that time. And the other was of course the campaign for expressing this idea, UBI, which is an old idea but you expressed it very uniquely and getting public recognition that this is something that society needs.
其中一项是你自己竞选总统的活动，按照当时所有人都要遵守的规则进行。另一项当然是为表达UBI这个想法而进行的活动，这是一个古老的想法，但你表达得非常独特，并获得了公众的认可，认为这是社会所需要的。
And I think while the presidential campaign might not have worked out this time, maybe it will in the future, I do feel you, and I'm curious if you think you feel you did this, I feel you succeeded in gaining a huge recognition for the concept of UBI.
我想说的是，虽然这次总统竞选可能没成功，但也许将来会有机会。我理解你的感受，不知道你是否也认为你成功地推广了全民基本收入的理念，这点我很好奇。
Now, that's one thing I'm so grateful for that I feel like we mainstream universal basic income right when the country needed it. And I'm optimistic that we're going to see more cash programs get implemented in real life in the days ahead.
现在，我非常感激的一件事，是我觉得正当国家需要的时候，我们将普遍基本收入纳入主流。我很乐观，相信我们将会看到更多现实中实施现金方案的日子。
The fact that now, no, 13 mayors around the country are calling for universal basic income is enormous because you know that group is going to grow very, very quickly. I mean, if you're a mayor looking around at the problems you see today in your community, you have to look up and say, look, this is like beyond my community's ability to address on our own, you know, like we need to think differently.
现在全国有13个市长要求实施全民基本收入这个事实非常巨大，因为你知道这个组织会非常迅速地增长。如果你是一位市长，看着今天社区中的问题，你必须仰头看看，说：看，这已经超出了我们社区自己的能力范围，我们需要有不同的思考方式。
So that 13 mayors is going to become 30 and then 300. Hopefully, we'll see universal basic income implemented in the US sooner rather than later. And I do feel like my campaign will have played a role.
希望很快我们就能在美国看到普遍基本收入得到实施。13个市长将变成30个，然后是300个。我认为，我的竞选活动会发挥一定的作用。
So you know, something that makes me so excited, it's why I ran is that if you legitimately think that you're making a decision and busting your tail for a couple of years, could help accelerate the end of poverty in your country, then you have to do it. You know, and I had this instinct where I was like, I think I can accelerate the end of poverty. And we're not there yet, but we're getting closer.
这么说吧，有一件让我非常兴奋的事情，那就是如果你真的认为自己做出决定，为了几年的努力可以帮助加速你的国家消灭贫困，那你就必须去做。我有这样的直觉，觉得我可以加速消灭贫困。虽然目前还没有完全实现，但我们正在逐步接近目标。
Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because of everybody's been saying and I agree with this, that since the pandemic began, and particularly since the economic lockdown began, every part of society is getting accelerated. So if thing, if Walmart was going to automate five years from now, they're automating one year from now. If you were going to get divorced 10 years from now, you're getting divorced right after these lockdowns are over. Like, and the same thing with the discussion of UBI and the big question that people approached with you was, how would you afford this?
是的。你知道的，有趣的是，每个人都在说而且我也同意，自从疫情开始，特别是经济封锁开始以来，社会的每个部分都在加速。因此，如果五年后沃尔玛要自动化，现在他们只需要一年就能实现。如果你计划在十年后离婚，那么现在就是解决这个问题的时候。同样，关于UBI的讨论和人们问你的一个大问题是，你将如何负担得起这个计划？
Now we know the answer. We could kind of afford anything right now. Like we just printed, you know, trillions of dollars, both for stimulus and for federal reserve actions. And when I ask the federal reserve about this or people in the federal reserve, the reality is there's so much demand for the US dollar that we could borrow this money for a very long time. And that includes for potentially a UBI as the second stage of the stimulus.
现在我们知道答案了。我们现在可以买任何东西。就像我们刚刚印了数万亿美元，包括刺激经济和联邦储备行动。当我询问联邦储备委员会或者联邦储备行动的人们时，事实上，对美元的需求非常之大，我们可以借这笔资金很长一段时间。这包括潜在的作为刺激行动第二阶段的普遍基本收入。
And do you think maybe the introduction of UBI in society might be a part of a stimulus package? Because clearly we can afford it now. No one's asking that question anymore. The last number I saw was that 81% of Americans favor cash relief as part of the stimulus. Now in a sensible democracy, that would mean it would become part of the stimulus bill. But just the fact that everyone wants it, including I think it's 68% of Republicans want it. I'm optimistic there'll be some cash component of this bill. I'm hopeful that it includes recurring payments and that it's not just another one time thing. But we're going to at least see one time payment as part of the next stimulus, I believe.
你认为在社会中引入全民基本收入会是刺激计划的一部分吗？因为很明显我们现在负担得起了。没有人再问这个问题了。我看到的最后一个数字是81%的美国人支持现金救济作为刺激的一部分。在一个明智的民主国家，这意味着它将成为刺激法案的一部分。但只是每个人都想要它，包括我认为68%的共和党人想要它。我很乐观地认为，这个法案将包括现金组成部分。我希望它包括循环付款，而不仅仅是一次性的。但我相信我们至少会在下一个刺激计划中看到一次性的付款。
And so I agree with you. I think part of the, maybe the first stimulus, it's hard to judge or not judge or whatever. But it seems like if there's a second stimulus package, just giving money to corporations doesn't necessarily get the money in the economy. It doesn't increase what's called the velocity of money, which is what we desperately need. But if you give money directly to the people who spend it, that will get into the economy.
我同意你的观点。我认为，也许第一个刺激计划难以评价，但似乎如果有第二个刺激计划，仅仅把钱给公司并不能让资金流入经济。我们迫切需要加快货币流通速度，这就是问题所在。但是，如果你直接给钱给那些会花费的人，那么这些资金就会流入经济。
And I, you know, just for the heck of it, I wrote to people I knew in the administration about the same thing you've been talking about, Congressman Tim Ryan's been talking about. And I suggested why not at least a six month UBI to get the money directly into the economy. And the response I got back in general was, one of people lose the incentive to work, which I thought was ridiculous. But how do you respond to that?
所以，就为了好玩我给我认识的政府官员写信，讨论了你和众议员蒂姆·瑞恩一样的问题。我建议为何不至少实行六个月的普惠基本收入，将资金直接注入经济。总的来说，我得到的回复是，有些人会失去工作的动力，这让我觉得荒谬。但你该如何回应他们的观点呢？
Part of the problem right now, James, is that a lot of the benefits are tied to unemployment. And so you do have Americans right now who are getting paid a significant amount of money. And if they were to start working, then they would lose that money. So part of the structure really is that if you put this money into people's hands, but they get it, regardless of whether they take that extra shift or start working a bunch of hours. That would be actually a very big differentiation.
现在的问题之一，詹姆斯，是许多优惠都与失业挂钩。因此，你现在有些美国人得到可观的薪水。如果他们开始工作，他们就会失去这笔钱。所以，这个结构的一部分真正的作用是，如果你把这笔钱交到人们手中，但无论他们是否接受额外的班次或开始工作更多的小时，他们都会得到这笔钱。这实际上是一个非常大的区别。
So that's a feature of our current unemployment benefit system. Rit large, I think that concern is pretty dumb. Just in that right now, the goal, like you said, is just to get money back into the economy. And you're not going to be putting so much money into people's hands that they're not going to want to work. But the problem is that right now, if you're a laid off bartender or airline attendant or security guard, who's hiring? It's like, what really is an alternative where you're like, oh, I don't want to get these people money because they might not want to go out and get a job.
那就是我们当前失业救济制度的一个特点。总体来说，我认为这种担忧相当愚蠢。因为目前的目标就像你说的，只是为了将钱重新注入经济中。你不会把那么多钱放到人们手中，以至于他们不想工作。但问题是，如果你是一名被解雇的酒保、航空乘务员或保安，谁会雇用你呢？现在真正的替代方案是什么？难道我们不想给这些人钱，因为他们可能不想出去找工作吗？
It's like, do you foresee, are creating tens of millions of jobs, like four folks who've just been furloughed or laid off in the next six months? I certainly don't. No, I think we're seeing, like, particularly in New York City and other major cities, but across the country, you're going to see something like 50% of storefronts at a business. It's like 15 million employees, 20 million employees. And nobody wakes up today and says, boy, I can't wait to start a pizza restaurant in New York City once things open up again. So I don't know what's going to replace that. There's going to be, it's unpredictable. It's unpredictable because it's not going to happen.
就像你预见一样，未来六个月内是否会创造数千万个就业机会，像刚刚被裁员或停职的四个人一样？我当然不这么认为。不，我认为我们正在看到，尤其是在纽约市和其他主要城市，但在全国范围内，您将看到大约50％的商店门面关闭。这大约涉及1500万到2000万个雇员。而且没有人会醒来说，天哪，一旦事情恢复正常，我迫不及待地想在纽约市开一家披萨餐厅。所以我不知道会有什么东西来取代它。这是不可预测的。这是不可预测的，因为这不会发生。
You even have a company like Google that's still minting money with a hiring freeze. So we have to face facts that 42% of the jobs that we're losing are gone forever. And 42% of, let's call it, 30 to 40 million. I mean, you're looking at something like twice the impact of the Great Recession in perpetuity. That's devastating. That's a catastrophe. And that's where we are.
就算在招聘冻结期，像谷歌这样的公司还是能赚到钱。所以我们必须面对一个事实，我们损失的42%的工作岗位永远都不会再出现了。而这42%就只是30至40百万个工作岗位中的一部分。这意味着我们将永远承受着大萧条的两倍的影响，这真是毁灭性的。这是一场灾难，我们就在这里。
We've managed to stop the bleeding with the first stimulus package, but it's evaporating. The unemployment benefits are running out. And so we need something of the same scale in magnitude. Or else we're going to see indescribable despair and suffering in the United States. Massiveictions, people on the streets, lines for miles for food, kitchens, like you name it. And so the real thing about the end of the world is that the power of the New York Grizzly scenario you can imagine is going to come to pass the United States of America unless Congress annexed meaningful relief.
我们已经通过第一个刺激计划成功止住了出血，但是它正在消失。失业救济已经耗尽。因此，我们需要一项相同规模的措施。否则，我们将在美国看到难以形容的绝望和痛苦。大规模的贫困、无家可归者、排队排了好几英里买食物、厨房里忙忙碌碌，等等，你可以想象的New York Grizzly场景的力量就要在美国实现，除非国会批准有意义的救济措施。
So I can't tell if you were just describing the next dystopian movie or what you actually think is going to really happen. Like, what's the odds? It's something like that really happens. Because to be honest, I'm nervous about it. A lot of people are nervous about that.
所以我不知道你是在描述下一部反乌托邦电影，还是真正认为会发生什么。就像，这样的事情真的会发生吗？因为说实话，我很担心。很多人对此感到担忧。
But any sensible economist is recommending, which is direct cash relief, some form of cushion for folks who've lost their jobs and relief to states because the last thing you want is states laying off hundreds of thousands of workers around the country because they're all have budget shortfalls, which they do right now.
任何明智的经济学家都在建议一个直接的现金援助措施，为失去工作的人提供一定程度的缓冲和向州提供救济。这是非常必要的，因为我们不希望州政府因为预算短缺而裁员数十万名工人，但现在情况确实如此。
I mean, if you're a state, like you've seen your tax revenue plummet, you have a balanced budget amendments. You're not allowed to run a deficit. So what the hell do you do? You turn around and being like, I guess we're going to like fire thousands of workers. During a pandemic went theoretically, you might need some of those workers to do something, like trace contacts or teach or whatever the heck, under the sun. I mean, you probably need more of it, not less.
我是说，如果你是一个州，你看到你的税收急剧下降，你会有平衡预算的修正案。你不允许出现赤字。那你干嘛呢？你会回头想，我想我们得解雇数千名工人。在理论上，这在疫情期间可能需要一些工人去做一些事情，比如追踪联系人或教学或别的什么。我是说，你可能需要更多的工人，而不是更少。
So those are the three things that are no brainers. And there are a lot of other things that you could make a very good argument for on top of them. But we need to be like your friends. I mean, we need to be aggressive about this where the danger is doing too little, not too much.
所以这三件事是不需要费脑筋的。除此之外还有很多其他的事情可以提出非常好的论据。但我们需要像你的朋友一样。我的意思是，我们需要在这方面采取积极的行动，因为危险在于做得太少，而不是太多。
Yeah, I agree. And again, part of it, part of the initial criticisms were, oh, there might be hyperinflation or there might be, you know, how does the government pay for it? You can't just print money forever. Yeah, you're not seeing any of it. Yeah, actually, there's deflation. Like whenever you get an email that says, oh, it's a 40% off on shirts today only, that's actually the new price. It's not really a sale. Like things are down, prices are down. And printing money hasn't changed that. Yeah, we're in danger of hitting a deflationary cycle. And so putting money into people's hands would be an excellent idea. Like I think the inflation counterargument is really based more on like a knee jerk reflex around giving money to people than it is grounded in fact, because if you just look at the facts, like we're facing the opposite danger.
是的，我同意。起初的批评中的一部分是，会有恶性通货膨胀或政府如何支付？你不能永远印钞票。但实际上，你并没有看到这些情况发生。现在我们面临的是货币紧缩的风险。你知道那些说"今天仅供应40%折扣"的电子邮件？这实际上是新的价格，而不是打折。物价已经下降了。印钞票并不能改变这一点。把钱交到人们手中是个好主意。我认为通货膨胀的反驳实际上更多是出于对给予人们钱的反射性排斥而不是基于事实。如果我们只关注事实，我们会发现我们面临的是与之相反的危险。
Yeah, and so I think one of the things that impressed, like, and I've seen you mention this on other podcasts, like you mentioned this on the Sam Harris podcast recently, where, but I'll repeat it, your audience, your fans, the Yang gang, they were more obsessed, like they were, they finitically supported your, your candidacy, your ideas and so on. More than any other candidate, I think there was even polls where, you know, people would always had you as they were obsessively interested in you winning the people who supported you.
嗯，我认为印象深刻的事情之一是您的听众，也就是您的粉丝，他们非常热衷于您的竞选、想法等等。我看过您在其他播客中提到过这一点，比如最近在Sam Harris播客中提到过，但我还是想重复一遍。我认为相比其他候选人，您的支持者——Yang Gang更加痴迷地支持您的竞选、想法等等。甚至有民调表明，那些支持您的人一直都非常痴迷于您的胜选。
And what do you think was there was something about your authenticity I felt, something separated you out from the other presidential candidates at the time. And I know I appreciate it in the debates. Your authenticity kind of like you had a quirkiness, you had a humor. There was, you know, you're at point, at one point you said, you know, I'm Asian, so I know, I know a lot of doctors and, you know, stuff like that where I was like, people were just like struck for a second and they were like, hey, he's not, he's a presidential candidate. He's not supposed to talk like that. And people appreciated it. What do you think it was that, that, you know, was it a hurdle to have that voice? Was it the fact that you didn't have a political background? And maybe there's a naive question. I don't know, but I've been curious.
你认为有关你的真实性方面，我感觉到了一些东西，与其他当时总统候选人有所不同。我在辩论中也很欣赏这种真实性，因为你有一些怪癖和幽默感。你说过一些话，让人们打了个猝不及防，比如你说，“我是亚洲人，我认识很多医生”。人们都被震惊了，因为你是一个总统候选人，不应该说出这样的话。但人们却很欣赏这种真实性。你认为是什么使你的声音与众不同？是你没有政治背景吗？这可能是一个天真的问题，但我一直很好奇。
I'm grateful to everyone who supported the campaign, including you. And I think they saw in me someone they could relate to who was running for president, not because it was like the next step in some career plan or whatnot or like part of like the like the childhood ambition. But genuinely, this wants to solve problems and improve things.
我非常感激所有支持这次活动的人，包括你在内。我认为他们看到了与自己有关的我，是一个真心想要解决问题和改善事情的总统候选人，而不是因为这是一个职业计划的下一步，或者童年的野心之类的东西。
And I think for many people, there's like this real recognition that our career politicians and political systems have not been addressing the challenges of our time. And that if someone who just stood up and said, look, we should do things differently. Like a lot of people got excited about it. And I'm glad they saw that in me because it genuinely was not some like a grand plan or lifelong ambition. I mean, I'm just someone who sees that we can do things a lot better. We can do a lot better.
我认为，对于许多人来说，真正认识到我们的职业政治家和政治体制没有应对我们这个时代的挑战。如果有人站出来说：“看，我们应该以不同的方式做事。”很多人会感到兴奋。我很高兴他们看到我身上有这种特质，因为这并不是一个宏伟的计划或终身抱负。我只是一个认为我们可以做得更好的人。我们可以做得更好。
I mean, it's really unfortunate how dark things are getting in part because we haven't had the right leadership. Yeah, and so I have to ask one more campaign thing. And then I really want to get into some of these issues. But I'm fascinated by the narratives of all the candidates in the campaign. And in your debate, you always expressed very well about UBI and the issues around it.
我是说，现在的这种黑暗局面真的很不幸，部分原因是因为我们没有正确的领导。是啊，我还有一个竞选问题要问。然后我真的想讨论一些这些问题。不过我对竞选中所有候选人的故事情节很感兴趣。在你的辩论中，你总是很好地表达了有关普惠基本收入以及其周围问题的看法。
Was there any point in the debates where you felt outclassed in some way like, oh, this person and these people are somehow playing the nuances a little better than I am in the debates. Where did you feel challenged almost in a game like fashion during the campaign?
在辩论过程中，你是否有过这样的感觉，觉得自己在某些方面被比自己更熟练地玩弄某些细微差别的人或者团队所优胜，这是有道理的吗？在竞选中，你在什么时候感到自己在一场游戏中受到了挑战？
I felt challenged just in that. It felt like you were in a theater production or like a stage play and then like no one informed you where moderators were part of it too. It's like everyone you get there and then everyone has these freaking roles that they're playing. And I'm like, you know, I consider myself like a fairly normal human.
我觉得那真的让我感到挑战。就像你在看一场戏剧表演，但好像没有人告诉你主持人也是其中一部分。就像每个人都到了那儿，然后大家都在扮演这些可怕的角色。我就像是，你知道，我觉得自己是一个相当正常的人。
So I was like, okay, like what's going on? Like did I not get the scripts of the stage note? So that adaptation took me some time. So I certainly never felt outclassed in terms of like someone's access to information or argumentation. But I felt like people were further along on a curve of of an artifice almost or like the ability to project a certain thing in like a simulated manner.
所以我就想，好的，到底发生了什么？我没有拿到台词或舞台注释吗？所以我花了一些时间来适应。所以我从来没有觉得自己在信息获取或辩论方面被超越了。但是，我觉得人们在一种类似于艺术构思或能够以模拟的方式呈现某种东西的能力上比我更加进步。
I was just figuring out like that like the first of it I went to one of the candidates was backstage like like practicing lines. And it reminded me of like a high school play, you know, I looked around him and was like, holy shit. I should write a book about that like all the behind the scenes stuff like that. You know, I'm writing some thoughts down. You know, that will include probably some of these these anecdotes. So I mean, you know, nothing imminent. But like I do want to try and catalog something.
我刚刚是这样想的，就像是第一次去参加候选人的后台活动，他们在那里练习台词，让我想起高中时期的话剧。我环顾四周后，想着，哇塞，我应该写一本关于幕后故事的书。我目前正在写一些想法，可能会包括这些趣闻。当然，目前并没有什么即将发生的事情，但我确实想尝试记录一些东西。
You know, there was one point where the moderators were asking Bernie Sanders about his policies on student loans and student loan wiping them out and stuff. And I knew you had such a great, you have such a great stance on this. You had such a great opinion on it, which you've written about it was on your website. You talked about on Joe Rogan. I was literally crying like Andrew interrupt Bernie Sanders right here. This is the thing to do. Get this out and you didn't do it. I was so disappointed.
你知道的，有一个时刻，主持人问伯尼·桑德斯关于学生贷款和消除学生贷款的政策，以及其他相关问题。我知道你在这方面有着很好的立场和观点，你还在你的网站上写了一篇相关文章，还在Joe Rogan的节目中谈到了。我当时真的很难过，希望安德鲁就此打断伯尼·桑德斯，说出我们的立场和观点，但你却没有这么做。我非常失望。
Thank you James. Yeah, that was like the top part of the dynamic because you're there. And I had points of view on a lot of things. But the dynamic of that environment and the moderators and the stages that you feel like, like you're going to be a real asshole if you butt in more than let's call it like once. And so it was like a constant judgment call being like, Hey, is this going to be the time? Because you did very much feel like like they like they did not necessarily want to pass you the baton.
谢谢詹姆斯。是的，由于你的存在，那确实是动态的顶点。我对很多事情都有自己的观点，但在那种环境下，因为有主持人和讲台，你觉得如果插嘴超过一次，就会成为真正的笨蛋。所以每时每刻都要去判断，嘿，这是不是时机？因为你真的感觉不像他们一定想把接力棒传给你。
You know, it's like if you say something, then they're just going to move on as quickly as possible. And so that was like a tough environment that way. But I felt similarly a lot of the time where, you know, like where there was something being discussed and I thought I had like a frankly a better answer. And it maybe it's on me that I didn't butt in more often for sure.
你知道的，就像如果你说了什么，他们就会尽可能快地转移话题。这样的环境很难应对。但我常常感到类似的情况，有一些问题被讨论，我觉得我有一个更好的答案。也许是我应该更经常插话的问题。
Well, obviously, you know, you have many future chances to butt in on these things. So we all can hope. But you know, big, a big part of the impetus for your UBI was your fears of automation and automation taking jobs from Americans. Clearly now automation is happening and everything's going to get automated and nobody's, nobody's slowing it down now. Now, nor should they, there's a lot of reasons they're, they're automating, you know, for social distancing reasons, for medical reasons, for productivity reasons while the economy is uncertain.
嗯，显然，你知道，你有很多未来的机会去关心这些事情。所以我们大家都能有希望。但你知道，你提出普惠基本收入的主要动力之一是你担心自动化会取代美国人的工作。显然，现在自动化正在发生，一切都将被自动化，而且现在没有人能阻止它。现在也不应该阻止，有很多理由要自动化，比如社交距离的原因，医疗原因，以及在经济不确定时的生产力原因。
And obviously it's not even the big problem anymore because so many people lost their jobs due to the pandemic and so on. But what's your view now on automation? Has it shifted a little? How does it relate now to UBI?
显然，这已经不是最大的问题了，因为由于疫情，很多人都失去了工作等等。但是，您现在对自动化有什么看法？它有没有稍微改变了？现在它与UBI有什么关系？
Well, like you said earlier, we're just accelerating the automation in many of these jobs. And if you just look at yourself at this point, if you don't see a human, you're excited. It's like value ad, you know, like there, there was an argument against automation that I always thought was dumb where people were like, oh, people just love other people. Like, you know, like you don't want it to be done by a robot. Like you'd rather be done by a person. And I was always like, really? And now we're seeing that you really would prefer it to be automated and not have a human, even touch it or like have to see it or exchange air with the human, which is very sad.
嗯，就像你之前所说的那样，我们正在加快许多工作自动化的进程。如果你现在看不到一个人，你会很兴奋。这就像增值一样，你知道，以前有一种反对自动化的论点我一直认为很愚蠢，就是人们说，哦，人们只喜欢和人交往，不想让机器人来做。我一直很惊讶，现在我们看到，人们真的更愿意让自动化完成，不想让人操作或者与人交流，这很令人难过。
But no, it's taking what might have taken 10 years and it's happening in 10 weeks. I mean, it's going to be a nightmare for many, many people. Many firms are doubling down on things that they had on the drawing board, really. Like they look at it. I think I saw a recent poll as by one of the big consulting firms and they said that something like half of them are speeding up their automation investments.
不过，现在只需要10个星期就可以完成原本可能需要10年的事情。这对许多人来说将是一个噩梦。许多公司正在大力发展原本考虑过但还未实行的计划。我看到最近一家大型咨询公司的一项民意调查显示，大约一半公司正在加速进行自动化投资。
But let's look at like a past woman in history, like the development of the ATM machine. Everyone was worried, oh my gosh, a million bank tellers are going to lose their jobs. And instead, profits increased so much that now there's a bank branch on every single corner and there's more tellers and bank employees higher than ever. Could that be the case? Like you mentioned like the truck driving industry often in the campaign.
但是我们可以看看历史上的女性，例如ATM机的发展。每个人都担心，哦，天哪，一百万银行出纳员将失去他们的工作。但事实上，利润增加得如此之多，现在每个街角都有一家银行分支机构，比以往更多的出纳员和银行雇员。这种情况可能是这样吗？正如你在竞选中经常提到卡车驾驶行业一样。
If there's automated driving on the highways, that means more products delivering to the cities, you still need drivers in the final mile because there's no self-driving in cities. I mean, we're probably very far away from that still. Yeah, it is case by case. The problem really with the arguments are that like you can find a case like bank tellers where there was like a growth opportunity and then you found other more value added things for the workers to do.
如果高速公路上有自动驾驶，那意味着更多的产品运往城市，但在最后一英里仍然需要司机，因为城市中没有自动驾驶。 我的意思是，我们可能还很遥远。 是的，这是情况因案。论据的真正问题是，就像你可以找到银行出纳员这样的案例，那里有增长机会，然后你找到了其他更有价值的事情让工人去做。
But then there are other settings where you're just going to get rid of the workers. So can you cherry pick and find a setting where it's one of the other? Sure. Most of the time it's going to be really complicated. The trucking example you used, are you still going to need drivers in the last mile? Yes. Like could you potentially need more drivers in the last mile? Yes. Is that going to get counterbalanced by the long haul? It's like well, the long haul has been a lot more time than in the last mile. Or you're going to have the driver sleeping in the truck and not driving, but you're still going to need a person there. Maybe for a number of reasons. Would you then need to compensate that person differently, almost certainly yes?
但是还有其他情况，你只想摆脱工人。那么你能否挑选和找到一个只有其中一种情况的环境呢？当然可以。大部分情况会变得相当复杂。你所举的货车运输的例子，你在最后一英里还需要司机吗？需要。你潜在地需要更多的司机去最后一英里吗？可能需要。这会被长途运输所抵消吗？长途时间肯定比最后一英里要多。或者你会让司机在卡车里睡觉而不是开车，但你仍然需要一个人在那里。可能有很多原因。你是不是需要以不同的方式补偿这个人，几乎肯定是的？
So there are different variables in any of these. You can't make a growth generalization one way or the other except the generalization you can make is that businesses are going to do everything they can to maximize their bottom line. And that at least in some of these cases, you're not going to find another job at this person to do that's higher value add.
所以在这些情况下都有不同的变量。你不能做出一个生长的概括，除了一个可以做出的概括，那就是企业会尽其所能地最大化其底线。并且至少在有些情况下，你将无法找到另一份更高附加值的工作。
You know, an example that most people can understand. Let's say you're Walmart. Let's say you have hundreds of stores in the US. Let's say you make self-check out the norm and you get rid of like, you know, a dozen cash years per location. Are you going to do like the bank teller, like example, and open a bunch of new Walmarts? Like no. Like, are you going to find a new role for all of the cash years? It's like, well, like what would you have them do? And then you look around the rest of the store and you're like, well, maybe they can shelve and it's like, well, maybe they can clean. And so in some cases, there might be something for them to do. But at some point, you're going to cut some people.
你知道，一个大家都能理解的例子。假设你是沃尔玛，假设你在美国有数百家门店。假设你让自助结账成为常规，并且在每个门店里消除了一打收银员。你会像银行出纳员那样开设大量新的沃尔玛吗？不会吧。你会为所有收银员找到新的角色吗？这就像，你会让他们做什么呢？然后你环顾四周的商店，你说，也许他们可以把货架放整齐，也许他们可以打扫卫生。因此，在某些情况下，他们可能有事情可做。但是到了某个时候，你还是会裁员的。
So like the fact that your, like a lot of the arguments around this struck me as always very undisciplined. And it's one of the problems, James, is that as a country, we're really data shy and argument heavy. It's like people will just. That's for sure. Yeah. People will just say, like, oh, but there is this example and like, you know, like you're wrong, I'm right. And it's like, well, it's actually a pretty complicated question. We should probably like go to the numbers on this one and figure it out. And if you look at the numbers, like there are studies coming out now that say, hey, for every robot that you implement in an area, like you're going to lose, you know, like X number of jobs. And so people are studying and finding that the impact is real.
就像你们之间的许多争论一样，让我感到很不纪律。这是问题之一，詹姆斯，我们作为一个国家，真的很害怕数据，却很喜欢争论。就像人们经常会说，噢，但是有这个例子，你错了，我对了。其实这是一个相当复杂的问题，我们应该去研究数据，找出答案。如果你看看数字，现在有一些研究表明，每实施一个机器人，就会失去一定数量的工作岗位。因此，人们正在研究和发现影响确实存在。
So you know, this was one thing you mentioned in the campaign and I was always a little confused about, but this is my own ignorance. When the unemployment rate was low, you were saying, that's because many people, and I agree with it, many people just drop out of the workforce so they're not, their numbers are not showing up.
你知道的，这是你在竞选期间提到的一件事，但我一直有些困惑，这是我的无知。当失业率很低的时候，你说，那是因为很多人就像我一样，几乎退出了劳动力市场，所以他们的数字并没有显示出来。
And this is going to be the stupidest question. But when someone drops out of the workforce, where do they go? Don't they still need to work or make money or what happens to these people?
这可能是最愚蠢的问题，但是当有人退出劳动力市场时，他们去哪里了？他们岂不是仍然需要工作或赚钱？那么这些人会发生什么？
So the labor force participation rate has been dropping for years in the US. Precrisis it was maybe 62%. Last I looked at, it's down into the 50s now. So you ask a very excellent question. It's like, what the hell happens to the person who drops out of the workforce?
美国的劳动力参与率多年来一直在下降。危机前可能是62%。最近我看过，现在已经降至50%左右。所以你问了一个非常好的问题。就像，那些退出劳动力市场的人会发生什么？
So if you are a young man, the most likely scenarios you live with your parents in the basement. And then you play video games and you're out of the workforce if you stop looking. That's actually you. I've got five children, that's definitely true. So that's very normal. I think what I saw was something like one out of six men of prime working ages in that situation right now.
如果你是一个年轻的男人，最有可能的情况就是你和你的父母住在地下室。然后你会玩视频游戏，如果你停止寻找工作，你就不再工作了。这其实就是你。我有五个孩子，这绝对是真的。所以这很正常。我认为我看到的情况是目前处于这种情况的优秀工作年龄男性中，有六个人中有一个。
If you are a former manufacturing worker, then you applied for disability and something like 20% of working age people in some counties in the US are on disability. So if you used to be in that job, then the job is appears and you say, I'm disabled.
如果您是一位曾经从事制造业的工人，那么您申请残障金的可能性非常高。在美国有些县市，有大约20%的劳动年龄人口都在领取残障金。所以如果您曾经在这个行业工作过，那么这份工作似乎就成为了您的身份象征，您会说：“我是残障者。”
And then the government says, OK, here's like 1100 a month, but you can't work ever again. And so when I talked to folks on disability, they said to me, it's like, I'd like to volunteer on the side, but I'm scared I'll lose my disability. So that's one of the worst situations of all worlds where it's like, well, let me get this straight. We're giving the person money. And now they can't even volunteer because you can imagine someone being disabled, like two disabled for like a rigorous 40-hour manufacturing job, but maybe they can volunteer at the local shelter a little bit.
政府会说：“好的，我们每个月会给你1100美元，但是你以后不能工作。”当我和残疾人交流时，他们告诉我，“我想做志愿者，但我担心会失去我的残疾补助金。”这是世界上最糟糕的情况之一，我们给予这个人钱，但现在他甚至不能做志愿者。你可以想象有些人可能因为残疾而无法从事40小时的工作，但是他们可能可以在当地的收容所做一些志愿工作。
Or even squashes entrepreneurship, you're not allowed to start anything if you're on disability. You can't get medication if you need it, if you start a business. And that's a UBI. I do agree. UBI, even bigger than 1,000 a month, 2,000 a month, UBI would go a long way to solving a lot of those issues.
甚至扼杀了创业精神，如果你处于残疾状态，你无法开始任何事情。如果你开始创业，你无法获得所需的药物。这就是一项UBI。我同意。UBI甚至比每月1000美元或2000美元更大规模，可以大大解决很多这些问题。
In terms of, right now, obviously, we're in the middle of all these protests. It's the tragedy of George Floyd. But I just want to throw in another data point. And this is going to be a very complicated one, so you can't simplify it too much. But when the economy is in a rough patch, historically, a lot of people did, went back to school.
目前，显然我们身处于所有这些抗议的中间。这是乔治·弗洛伊德的悲剧。但我想加入另一个数据点。这将是非常复杂的，因此你不能过于简化它。但是历史上，当经济形势艰难时，很多人选择重返学校。
And then you're out of the workforce. And in theory, you're like, oh, this is exciting because you're getting trained and equipped and better educated. But in real life, some of these degrees are expensive. You might not get the job you want. At the very extreme, you have these for-profit chains that are trying to gouge you. And there are very, very dark stories where you have institutions like praying on vets or praying on a population that they think they can get money from and the person.
然后你就退出了劳动力市场。理论上来说，你会感觉很兴奋，因为你会接受培训、装备自己、提高教育水平。但在现实生活中，有些文凭非常昂贵，而你可能得不到想要的工作。极端情况下，你可能会碰到一些追求利益的连锁机构，它们竭力诱骗你。还有很多很暗的事情，比如有一些机构会以退役军人或其他他们认为能够从中获得利益的人为目标，将其欺骗。
So when people go back to school, they also drop out of the workforce. So this is a great point. It leads to two questions. One is, what do you think of Google's recent announcement last week? They have these three different certification programs. I believe they're running it through Coursera.
当人们回到学校上学时，他们也退出了劳动力市场。这是一个很好的观点。它引发了两个问题。一个是，你对谷歌上周的最新公告有什么看法？他们有这三个不同的认证计划。我相信它们是通过 Coursera 运行的。
Do we see some sort of corporate education complex that starts to develop that reduces the cost of having sufficient enough education to get a good job? You're going to see a whole lot more of that. You know, and I had a conversation with a guy named Scott Galloway, you probably know. He's been on my podcast three or four times. Yeah.
我们是否会看到某种企业教育复合体开始发展，从而降低拥有足够教育以获得好工作的成本？你会看到更多这样的事情发生。你知道，我曾与一个名叫斯科特·加洛威的人谈过话，你可能也知道他。他已经在我的播客上出现了三四次。是的。
He talks about how tech is going to go on education and healthcare because they need growth. And that's where you get it. And education is a very high-margin business. And if you look at what people are paying for on education, a lot of it is around the credentialing and the network on the higher ability. It's not necessarily that they're getting learning that's not available elsewhere.
他谈到了科技将如何推进教育和医疗产业，因为它们需要增长。这就是你得到它的方式。而教育是一个非常高利润的行业。如果你看看人们在教育上支付的费用，很多都与证书认证和高能力网络有关。这并不一定意味着他们在学习方面得到的是其他地方得不到的。
So you can replace the credentialing and higher ability into some extent of the network. And it's credible, which if you're a tech company, it's the most credible because frankly, the reason why anyone would want to get some awesome degree is to work at Google. So if Google's somehow offering certification, you're like, ooh, this could be my entry into working there.
这样你就可以将凭证和更高的能力一定程度上替换成网络上的一些东西。而且它是可信的，如果你是一家科技公司，那么这是最可信的，因为坦白地说，任何人想要获得一些非常棒的学位的原因是为了在谷歌工作。所以如果谷歌以某种方式提供认证，你就像是，哇，这可能是我进入那里工作的入口。
So if you have that kind of cache A in the ability to offer credentialing, then you can compete very effectively because you don't cost 60,000 a year. You don't necessarily require a residential experience. And for these colleges, they're stuck because they're looking up saying, hey, classes are going to be, be a Zoom, but you still owe $60,000.
如果你有这种认证能力上的高知名度 A，那么你可以非常有效地竞争，因为你不需要一年花费 60000 美元，也不需要必须有住宿经验。而对于这些大学来说，他们陷入了困境，因为他们发现，虽然上课是要通过 Zoom 进行的，但你还是要支付 60000 美元。
And then families are looking up being like, wait, what just happened? Like, how did that work? Right, so there's got to be a change.
然后家庭会想，等一下，刚才发生了什么？那是怎么回事？所以必须进行改变。
Yeah, this is a tough part about a lot of these things, James. And this is one errand thinking that a lot of people make in the US in particular, where you think to yourself, like, oh, this doesn't make sense.
嗯，这是许多事情中很难的一部分，詹姆斯。这也是很多美国人特别容易犯的一个错误，你会自己想，噢，这没有意义。
So it will change. Like what's happening in the United States is a lot of shit that doesn't make sense, just sticks around.
所以它会改变的。就像在美国发生的很多不合理的事情一样，它们就是一直存在的。
Like give me an example of what?
比如，请给我一个例子？
So let's say I'm a parent. You have five kids. So you know this better than I do. But let's say I'm a parent. My kid's about to go to college. And then you look up and you're like, wow, college is 60,000. And it was only like 20,000. And we're like, when I went, I went on 25,000 or whatever the number was.
那么，让我们假设我是一个家长。你有五个孩子，所以你比我更熟悉这方面。但是，假设我是一个家长。我的孩子即将上大学。然后你看着这个数字——哇，大学要花费60,000美元，而我上学的时候只要 20,000美元，当时我花费了25,000美元或类似的数字。
So then do you turn to your kid and be like, hey, guess what? You're not going to college? Like probably not. You're like, all right. I guess this is the way it goes down. So then the government has said, don't worry about it. We'll give you loans. So you're up to 1.6 trillion in student loan debt.
那么你会转向你的孩子，像这样说，“嘿，猜猜怎样？你不会去大学吗？”可能不会这样说。你会说，“好吧，我猜这就是现实。”然后政府说，“别担心，我们会给你贷款。”现在你们的学生贷款债务已经高达1.6万亿了。
And people just felt like they had no choice but to pay. Same thing in healthcare, where our health insurance rates go up and up to the sky. And then at some point, does someone say, well, you know, like, I'm going to stop? It's like, well, no, I don't have a choice. I need to get a healthcare coverage.
人们感觉没有选择，只能支付。同样的事情也发生在医疗保健领域，我们的健康保险费不断上涨，直至高天。但是，到了某个时候，有人会说："嗯，我要停下来了吧。"可是，实际上呢，我并没有选择。我需要保险来保障我的健康。
So it's one reason why things have become miserable for so many Americans is that you think shit is going to self correct in a lot of spaces. But actually people can just get away with it for a long time. It's true in government too. Your government can screw up something royally and then you can't just turn to another government. So you have these massive inefficiencies that are built up over time and you can't get rid of them. Like that's where it is.
所以，造成很多美国人的生活变得悲惨的一个原因是，你们认为在很多领域中问题会自行纠正。但实际上，人们可以长期逃避责任。政府也是如此。政府可能会搞砸某件事情，但你不能简单地转向另一个政府。因此，随着时间的推移，就会积累大量的低效率，而你们也无法摆脱它们。这就是实际情况。
So if you have Google entering the market, that is a very positive development in some respects, it will increase competitive pressures on some of the weaker schools. But the strong schools will just keep on getting away with it.
如果Google进入市场，就在某种程度上是非常积极的发展，它将增加一些较弱学校的竞争压力。但是强大的学校仍将继续逍遥法外。
So I want to get into what's going on with the protests, police reform, you know, tragically, you know, everything that's happened in the past few months that, you know, maybe the lockdown was sort of the fire where that gas was thrown on. Now everybody's erupted into these protests. In some cases, even, you know, more aggressive protests, your president say, what's a solution?
所以我想谈谈抗议、警察改革以及发生在过去几个月里的一切悲剧，也许封锁期间引发了更多的愤怒。现在每个人都爆发出这些抗议，甚至包括一些更具攻击性的抗议，你的总统说，有什么解决方案？
I know, you know, there's solutions ranging from, you know, how you deal with the officers to maybe, you know, different types of weapons. What what are you looking at?
我知道，你知道，有各种解决方法，比如你如何处理警官，或者使用不同类型的武器，你在看什么？
You have to do a lot of things. I mean, when I looked at what's going on, police brutality as the data guy, I was like, okay, what are the measurements you can have for this problem?
你需要做很多事情。我的意思是，作为数据分析师，当我看到发生的警察暴力事件时，我会想，哦，这个问题可以有哪些度量标准呢？
So issue number one, how many people are killed by police every year? Turns out the best you can do is an estimate, which itself is very dark and scary because legally, this is supposed to report this stuff. But instead you have compiled news reports that say reliably, we can say a thousand people plus get killed by police officers every year.
首先，有多少人每年被警察杀死是一个问题。事实证明，你能做到的最好的事情是一个估计值，这本身就很黑暗可怕，因为根据法律，这应该是必须报告的。但是，相反的是，你已经收集了可靠地说，每年有一千人或一千多人被警察杀害的新闻报道。
That's a baseline. Like, isn't possibly more than that. Yes. Okay. So that sounds pretty bad. Like three Americans a day are just getting shot by a police officer somewhere.
那是一个基础标准。就是说，可能不止那么多。是的。好的。听起来相当可怕。每天有三名美国人被警察开枪打死。
The second thing is like, can you measure police brutality? And it turns out that we're paying out over a billion dollars a year in successful civil judgments against police departments around the country. And they have a very high legal standard to clear, even in civil suits.
第二件事就像是，你是否能够衡量警察暴力？结果表明，全国各地警察局每年要支付超过10亿美元的成功民事判决金。即使在民事诉讼中，他们也要满足非常严格的法律标准。
Can you imagine trying to sue a cop for some fucked up shit they did and then winning? Like, a lot of things have to go pretty well for you in the sense that you must have some real damage, witnesses, video, like something because you know that police departments very well-lawored and you're going to have a very high legal standard to get through.
你能想象要起诉警察因为他们做了一些糟糕的事情，然后赢了吗？就是说，如果你想要成功的话，需要很多东西都顺利地进行，比如你必须遭受了一些真正的伤害、有证人、有视频，因为你知道警察局很精通法律，你将面临非常高的法律标准来通过这件事情。
So in New York alone, NYPD pays out hundreds of millions in civil suits for police. I think on your website you mentioned about over 700 million, which surprised me. Yeah. And one year it was like, it was in that ballpark and you're just like, what the heck is going on?
在仅纽约一地，纽约市警察局为警方支付了数亿美元的民事诉讼赔偿。我觉得你们网站上提到了超过7亿美元的数字，这让我很吃惊。是的。有一年大约在那个范围内，你就想，到底发生了什么事情？
So you're looking at over a billion dollars in civil suits successful per year. So what is the actual scope of the harm? Some multiple of that. You're looking at billions of dollars in police misconduct a year.
那么你在看每年成功的民事诉讼超过十亿美元。那么实际的损害范围是什么？那会是这个数的几倍。每年警察不当行为涉及数十亿美元。
And then you look and say, okay, how is this being addressed or enforced? And the truth is that if you're a local district attorney, the last thing you want to do is mess with your local police department.
然后你看着，然后说，好的，这个问题如何被解决或执行呢？事实上，如果你是一个地方检察官，你最不想干的事就是与你的当地警察部门发生冲突。
You're working with them every single day to make cases. Like, you're not going to turn around and try and stick it to them. So which is one reason why someone like Kamala Harris who was a district attorney was like, hey, you need someone else. Because the district attorney cannot turn it.
你每天与他们一起努力处理案件。就像，你不会转过身去试图陷害他们。这就是为什么像卡玛拉·哈里斯这样的地区检察官会说，嘿，你需要找别人。因为地区检察官不能背叛他们。
So you also have these union rules that are very, very powerful. So you can see the scope of the damage is significant. And it makes sense that we would not be addressing it locally. Like, it's structural. So to address it, you would have to take a shot at it with like a whole series of measures.
所以你们也有那些非常非常强大的工会规定。因此，可以看出损害的范围是相当大的。而且，这也很有道理，我们不能在当地解决这个问题。因为它是结构性的。为了解决它，必须采取一整套措施。
Now a couple of them are technological that your fans would probably like. Like, should you have body cams on everyone that it is paid for like nationally. So it's not on like, you know, it's not a cost burden for communities. Yes. Should you invest in nonlethal weaponry? And I'm a geek. So this was exciting. But like, it's actually the case that you should have.
现在有几个科技问题，你的粉丝可能会喜欢。比如说，你应该在所有人身上安装身体摄像头，像全国性的那样支付费用。这样就不会成为社区的负担。是的。你应该投资非致命性武器吗？我是一个科技迷。所以这很令人兴奋。但是实际上，你应该这样做。
So right now you have a taser has limitations. And taser, I'll say allegedly, I mean, I've seen, we've all seen videos. It's not nonlethal. Yeah. Like, taser can be very dangerous in some circumstances. But there are a lot of situations where like the taser is not the right use case. Like, for example, when someone's like running away from you and they're beyond a certain range, then the taser's not going to reach them. So the next thing you have is a firearm.
现在你手上有一把电击枪，但这种武器是有限制的。电击枪据说并非不能致命，我们都看到了视频。在某些情况下，电击枪可能非常危险。但是，在很多情况下，电击枪并不是最合适的工具。比如，当某人正在远离你逃跑，且距离超过一定范围时，电击枪就无法达到他们。那么，接下来你只能使用枪支了。
And so we saw this case in Atlanta where the man was running away and then the cops shot him in the back. And so like, could you use some new nonlethal weapon? Like, and this is going to sound very like running managed. But like there is like a company that makes like these bolas that you could like shoot at someone running away from you and it like wraps them up and like, you know, like, like screws them up enough so that they're going to trip and fall and then you can like catch up to them. Yeah, that's the bowl of rap by rap technologies.
所以我们在亚特兰大看到了一个案例，一个男人在逃跑，警察后来射击了他的背部。那么，你能使用一些新的非致命性武器吗？就像，这听起来像一种管控技术。但是就像有一家公司制造这些像球轮一样的东西，你可以朝着逃跑的人射击，然后包裹住他们，就像，你知道的，把他们搞乱了，他们就会跌倒，然后你可以靠近他们了。是的，那是Rap Technologies制造的球轮。
Yeah. Stuff like that, it's like, is that worth at least investing in and trying to figure out whether there is some intermediate level of force that a police officer could use that's not lethal weapon? Yes. Should you be investing in crisis workers and mental health workers who can respond to calls that maybe don't warrant like someone carrying a gun because one scourge in many of these communities is drug addiction.
是的，类似于这样的事情，值得投资并尝试找出警察可以使用的一些中间级别的力量，而不是致命武器。是的。您是否应该投资于危机工作者和心理健康工作者，他们可以响应那些可能不需要像某些社区那样携带枪支的紧急呼叫，因为在这些社区中的一个问题是药物成瘾。
So you have these drug addicts who are struggling like families call and then a lot of the times the cop that shows up, you know, or there are circumstances where I think the number is like a third of people who are killed by police have severe mental illness. And you can imagine a police officer showing up to someone who's mentally ill and is not listening to commands. And so the police officer is like stop, stop or I'll shoot and then eventually they shoot them. And so you can send someone who's like a trained mental health worker, crisis counselor, instead of like an armed police officer or maybe they both go or some combination. But you need to invest in resources to that effect.
所以你会遇到像家庭成员一样努力挣扎的药物成瘾者，然后很多时候出现的警察，你知道，或有情况，我认为有三分之一的被警察杀死的人有严重的精神疾病。你可以想象一个警察赶到一个精神病患者身边，但他们不听从命令。因此，警察会说：“停下，否则我会开枪”，最终他们开枪射击。因此，你可以派遣一个受过训练的心理健康工作者、危机咨询师，而不是一名带着武器的警察，或者他们可以一起去或有某种组合方式。但你需要投资于这个方面的资源。
In my mind, there should be some Department of Justice dedicated task force around police misconduct. So then you can take the pressure off of local DAs to confront police officers because then if you have like an independent entity that's actually investigating and it's been proven to work when you have consent decrees out of the Department of Justice when they investigate police departments that it does reduce police violence.
在我看来，应该成立一个专门从事警察渎职问题的司法部特别小组。这样就可以减轻地方检察官对抗警察的压力，因为如果你有一个独立的实体在进行调查，当调查出自司法部的约定被证明有效时，警察部门的暴力就会减少。
The problem is that those DOJ actions are very, very rare and far between and they require not just like one cop screws up, but they need evidence of essentially a system wide practice that raises the misconduct to a point where it's unconstitutional like in the community. So it's not just like, hey, a cop did something reprehensible. It's like Department wide, there's a problem. And then and these consent decrees and the DOJ actions take years to execute.
问题在于那些司法部门的行动非常非常少且稀少，不仅需要一个警察犯了错误，而且需要证据来证明该问题在整个系统中普遍存在，使得不端行为到了违宪的地步，就像在社区中一样。所以这不仅仅是说，嘿，一个警察做了令人不齿的事情。它是指整个部门存在问题。而且这些同意令和司法部门的行动需要数年时间才能执行。
So there should be in my mind like a more immediate remedy that gets used more often because the problem of police brutality is very real by the numbers. There are other practices like banning chokeholds I think would be a good idea. Like there are other things you can do that are there's like a laundry list, demiltrising.
所以在我的想法中应该有一个更为直接的解决办法，因为警察暴力问题是非常实际的，从数据上看。我认为禁止抓颈部等其他做法也是一个好主意。就像有其他事情可以做的一样，有一个洗衣单，像转化。
Like we're sending billions of dollars to police departments. And there's even an incentive James, it's interesting is that if you don't use the hardware within a year, then you're theoretically supposed to give it back. So let's say I give you like a tank. Literally, you're like, well, I got to use this tag now. My neighbors would be unhappy, but go ahead. No, literally you have tanks in police department, so 100%.
就像我们要向警察局投入数十亿美元一样。而且甚至有激励措施，詹姆斯，有意思的是，如果你一年内不使用这些装备，理论上你应该把它们还回去。所以，假设我给你一辆坦克，你就会说，好吧，我现在得用这个坦克了。我的邻居们可能会不高兴，但没关系。不过，警察局真的有坦克，百分之百肯定的。
Like that the numbers there are staggering too, we're transferring tens of billions of dollars of hardware directly to police departments and it's it's arming them. In a way that makes it much more likely that they're going to use those armaments, but it also changes your orientation to that of sort of like a military outfit rather than like people who are talking directly to members of the community and serving and protecting. So you know, and all of this is kind of connected to the education, law enforcement, getting people jobs.
就像那些数字一样惊人，我们正直接向警察局转移数十亿美元的硬件，使他们武装起来。这样做很可能使他们使用这些武器，但也让他们更像是军队而不是直接与社区成员交流，服务和保护人员的人。因此，你知道，所有这些都与教育、执法和为人们提供工作有关。
One issue seems to be like in a lot of states and state by state, there's all these blue collar licensing requirements. So you know, each state has different requirements if you want to be a manicurist, if you want to be whatever, all these blue collar jobs, is there an issue of just kind of like maybe we should just get rid of those licensing requirements so people could get to work? Or at a minimum, we should make them portable.
有一个问题似乎在很多州和逐州存在，那就是有许多蓝领职业的牌照要求。所以，你知道，每个州对于想要成为美甲师、想要从事所有这些蓝领工作的人都有不同的要求，这是否存在一个问题，即我们也许应该取消这些牌照要求，以便人们能够有工作？或者，至少我们应该使它们可移植。
Like if you're a licensed hairdresser in Connecticut, does hair really change when you like cross the state line and get to Massachusetts? You know, what's a lot more human implorative? So I don't know, but yeah, the licensing requirements have become onerous and the most egregious example is doctors where you know, you can be licensed to practice medicine in some place and then I can't actually even use telemedicine to talk to you if you're across state lines, which on the face of it, you're like, does the human anatomy change but you're between Connecticut and Massachusetts? Does that make any sense?
如果你是康涅狄格州的执照理发师，那么当你跨越州界到马萨诸塞州时，头发真的会有所改变吗？你知道的，这更加人性化的问题是什么？我不知道，但是是的，执照要求变得非常繁琐，最严重的例子是医生，你知道的，你可以在某个地方获得医疗执照，但如果你在跨越州界，我甚至无法使用远程医疗与你进行交流，这本身就很荒谬，你跨越康涅狄格州和马萨诸塞州之间会发生什么？有意义吗？
And so right now, we, and this is actually like something that is a big theme of my campaign and it's something that is a real struggle because it's complicated. So in theory, licensing rules make sense. You're like, hey, I should make sure you know what you're doing before. We like put you out there. But then you end up with this bureaucratic tangle in some cases that does not make any sense.
所以现在我们面临一个我竞选的主要议题，这是一件真正棘手、复杂的事情。理论上，许可规定是有道理的。因为在我们把你推出去之前，我应该确保你知道你在做什么。但在某些情况下，你会发现这些规定变成了一种行政上的混乱，毫无意义。
Yeah, I just moved like 50 miles into a new state and like, now I can't apply my trade unless I go through your weird set of hoops and like pay a fee and do all the stuff. It's like, is that positive? And so right now in America, like we have like this tangled up bureaucracy that unfortunately is, in some cases insufficient, like we should have rules for some things we do not have rules for.
嗯，我刚刚搬了大约50英里到一个新州，现在我不能应用我的职业，除非我经历你们奇怪的一套程序，支付费用并完成所有事情。这是积极的吗？现在在美国，我们有这种错综复杂的官僚主义，在某些情况下不足，我们应该为一些我们没有规则的事情制定规则。
Like what? You know, like social media excesses and the fact that it has a negative effect on the mental health of our kids, particularly teenage girls. Should there be some kind of rules around that? Like, yeah, there probably should be. It's like, but you know, our government doesn't understand any technology issues. So it's like, yeah, like, like, it'll be okay. So that's something we should have rules for. And then there are other things that we have these rules that have become these overgrown brambles that no one really knows what the purpose is anymore and then you just have bureaucrats being like, well, you know, you broke a rule. And so you have both of those situations simultaneously.
像什么呢？你知道的，比如社交媒体过度和对我们的孩子，特别是青少年女孩的心理健康产生负面影响。是否应该制定一些规定？是的，可能应该有。但你知道，我们的政府不太了解科技问题。所以，是的，就像，好吧，这是我们应该制定规定的事情。然后还有其他一些规则已成为这些蔓延的枯枝，没有人真正知道其目的，然后你只能看到官僚们说，“哦，你知道，你违反了一条规则”。所以同时存在这两种情况。
But how would you, how would you make a change? Like if you were the president of the United States tomorrow and you could make a bunch of decisions, it still has to go, things have to go through Congress, things get bureaucratic. There's partisan issues, people fold stuff into bills.
但是，如果你明天成为了美国总统，你要如何进行改变呢？毕竟所有的决定都必须经过国会批准，而这种过程往往会涉及很多官僚主义，存在党派分歧，很多东西还要并入法案。
Like it's just, there's lobbying, it just is a horrible system. That is the greatest challenge. And I'll confide in you, James. It was one of my greatest concerns while I was running for president. Because there was a period when Donna Males, like, holy cow, I could win this thing. And then my greatest fear became like, how am I going to somehow drain the swamp, conquer the bureaucracy, do all this stuff?
就像，现在有游说，这个制度就是一个可怕的系统。这是最大的挑战。我会信任你，詹姆斯。当我竞选总统时，这是我最大的担忧之一。因为有一段时间，唐娜·梅尔斯就像，天哪，我可能会赢得这个职位。然后，我最大的恐惧就变成了，我该如何排除陋习，征服官僚主义，做所有这些事情呢？
Because like, I'm not an idiot, like, like some other folks where you can't just go and like, will things to happen. The presidency has very massive limitations. You can't just like, wave your hand and try and override the rules and the lobbyists. Because in DC, if you have a rule set up, in many cases that rule ends up giving rise to like an entire industry or like, you know, like set up people in the rest of it.
因为你知道，我不是傻瓜，有些人就像傻瓜一样，你不能只是随便去做一些事情就让事情发生。总统职位有很大的限制，你不能随便挥手就试图覆盖规则和游说者。因为在华盛顿特区，如果你设置了一个规则，在很多情况下，这个规则会引发整个行业或者一些相关的人员。
And if you show up and you're like, how am I going to make a change? It's like, well, you just like, pull the rug out from under like these ex-thousand people and they're really upset. And so this lobbyist, who's like, like, they're waiting for you to try and knife you if you make any kind of change.
如果你出现了，然后你说：“我要怎么做才能做出改变呢？”那就好比你要把这些之前支持你的几千人的地基推倒，他们都感到很失望。还有一个说客，他在等着你做任何改变，然后再用刀子捅你。
And you take that situation and multiply it times a thousand or ten thousand. Like, like, if you go to DC, it like blows your mind how much like the influence peddling industry has overrun that place. You know, I went to a senator, I went to a breakfast with a senator and there were like eight lobbyists there just like who all paid like thousand dollars to the privilege of like and the senator was there like, you need breakfast and then this went around and lobbyist one was like, so what about that orange growing rule? Like, like, it's like a whole town.
你把那种情况乘以一千倍或一万倍。比如说，如果你去DC，你会非常震惊影响力买卖产业在那里已经泛滥成灾。我曾经去见过一位参议员，在那里还有八个游说者，他们都付了一千美元或更多的钱来获得这个特权。参议员在那里提供早餐，然后游说者们开始围绕着议题讨论。就像是整个城镇都是这样的。
Like, not just a town, it's the richest city in our country. You know, objectively now, Washington, DC. And so one of the jokes I told on the trail, James, was like, what do they produce? And then everyone like laughter was like, what do they produce? And it's like, well, whatever they're producing, business is awfully good.
不仅仅是一个小镇，它是我们国家最富裕的城市。你知道，客观地说现在是华盛顿特区。所以我在竞选时讲的一个笑话是，他们生产什么？然后所有人都笑了，说他们生产什么？这就像是，无论他们生产什么，生意都非常好。
So you're right that trying to somehow pull the roots out of that bureaucracy is a massive challenge. And when you ask what Andrew Yang will do about it in real life, there's the president's seat, which I'd have certain things I would try and get done.
所以你是对的，试图从那个官僚机构中拉出根来是一项极大的挑战。当你问安德鲁·杨在现实生活中会采取什么行动时，有总统的位置，我会努力去达到某些目标。
But the goal is it's just like any entrepreneur where you show up someplace and you say, okay, what are like the highest impact changes I can make that are actually doable and achievable that there's not some like massive set of obstacles in my way. You know, like a lot of it's like prioritization where you say, look, what is one rule like an undo that's going to really like help free up a lot of energy possibly or what's something I can fight for that like the other side has been weakening over time.
但是目标就像任何创业者一样，你到一个地方来，问自己：“我能做什么最有影响力的改变，而且是可行的，没有什么巨大的障碍？”很多时候这是一个优先考虑的问题，你要问自己：“哪一个规则是可以被撤销的，它会帮助释放很多能量，或者说我可以争取什么，而对方在这方面已经渐失优势。”
This to me is one of the great challenges of our time that we have this overgrown by giant monstrosity of a bureaucracy that has lost the thread. You know, like where and the most heartbreaking example in my mind is a CDC. You know, you look up and like Trump certainly has a lot of responsibility, but you have to look at it and say like, you know, we had multiple failures at like different levels of the CDC that were driven by the fact that it's become this like kind of slow-footed bureaucracy that was not ready for a pandemic, even though that's why it theoretically even exists.
在我看来，我们这个时代面临着的一个巨大挑战就是我们的官僚机构异常庞大，已经失去了初衷。你知道的，最令人心碎的例子就是CDC。你看看，特朗普肯定有很大的责任，但你必须审视一下，说实话，CDC在不同层级上出现了多个失败案例，这是由于它已经变成了一个缓慢的官僚机构，没有准备好应对疫情，尽管理论上这就是它存在的目的。
Yeah, I mean, there's the whole issue of the pandemic and the response to it, which I can't even get into. That's like a billion, a billion man hours a day are wasted on Twitter with that. But what would you do in a situation like Seattle or Portland where interactions between local government protesters which may or may not be violent or increasing in violence like in the so-called chaz, you know, kids died and just nobody was somehow paying attention or getting involved.
嗯，我的意思是，整个大流行和应对措施的问题，我甚至无法谈论。每天有十亿男人小时在Twitter上因此而被浪费掉了。但在像西雅图或波特兰这样的情况下，地方政府和抗议者之间的互动可能是暴力或暴力程度逐渐增加，就像所谓的chaz一样，孩子们死了，但似乎没有人关注或参与。
Like does the presidency have a role in that? Like what would how would you look at something like that? Well, if I were president, I would I think that that's so it's very important. And I think the goal should be to try and deescalate tensions, not escalate them. You know, unless like there's imminent loss of life or like massive harm being done, like you want to try and deescalate tensions and figure out what people's actual requests and demands are and then see what could help move things in a better direction.
总统在其中有没有角色呢？你认为这种情况应该怎样看待呢？嗯，如果我是总统，我想这非常重要。我认为目标应该是尽量缓和紧张情况，而不是加剧它们。除非有生命的严重损失或大规模伤害，你希望尽力缓解紧张情况，找出人们的实际要求和需求，然后看看如何有助于向更好的方向发展。
What happened in Portland seems just reprehensible and awful where you had folks just getting thrown into arden mark bands like this stuff out of like a really bad conspiracy theory or dystopian movie that you hope wouldn't happen here in the United States. But I keep saying that all through these months and it just gets worse. But I guess that's another issue.
在波特兰发生的事情看起来真是令人厌恶和可怕，你会看到人们被扔进了类似于乌托邦电影中出现的某种营地，这些事情就像某种阴谋论或反乌托邦电影般糟糕，你真的希望这种事情不会发生在美国。但是我一直在说这些话，这几个月情况只会变得更糟。不过我想这是另一个问题了。
Oh, no, and this is one reason why my campaign did well, I think James is that like I think most people recognize that like the bullshit is now working, you know, and like a lot of folks like I realize that politicians come in and they like arguing symbols.
哦，不好，这就是为什么我认为我的竞选活动做得很好的一个原因，詹姆斯，我认为大多数人都意识到那些废话已经没用了，你知道的，很多人认识到政治家们只是在争论符号。
And that even my what I thought was just like me delivering information in a way that like just came naturally for me was like its own set of symbols. And then I'd look around being like wow, like and then this is what I was talking about before with the artifice is that if you're an experienced politician, you become really like conversant in like symbols that like work to activate a certain group of people. And like that like meanwhile the reality is degrading before our eyes, you know what I mean? It's like like where we're just like my brand of bullshit is better than your brand of bullshit. It's like okay. Meanwhile like nothing's getting done like you know like the like our society is crumbling on underneath our feet. And people are just getting increasingly fed up with it like people can see.
我曾以为自己就是以自然的方式传达信息的人，但我现在意识到，即使是这种方式本身也是一套符号系统。我环顾四周，惊叹不已，这就是我之前谈到的虚伪，如果你是一位经验丰富的政治家，你就会掌握那些激活特定人群的符号。然而，现实正在我们眼前瓦解，你明白我的意思吗？我们就像在争论谁的胡说八道更好一样，同时无所事事，我们的社会正在我们的脚下崩溃。人们越来越不耐烦，他们可以看到。
I mean, and I feel I feel like looking on on both sides. We do need stimulus now. We do need direct relief to citizens. I don't know if it's the president or Congress or whoever seems disconnected from reality that people are going hungry. They're food lines miles long now. It makes me angry. It breaks my heart. I'm doing everything I can to fight for stimulus money in our hands. I've been supporting local candidates with the hope that we can activate more members of Congress to get on board with it.
我的意思是，我感觉现在必须看两面。我们确实需要刺激。我们确实需要直接帮助公民。我不知道是总统还是国会或其他谁似乎与现实脱节，人们正在挨饿。他们排队买食物的队伍已经长达数英里。这让我感到愤怒，让我心碎。我正在尽我所能为我们争取刺激资金。我一直在支持当地候选人，希望我们可以激活更多国会成员支持它。
But it is members of Congress that are just disconnected because the need should be clear. It's crystal clear to you and me what's going on in communities around the country. The problem is that members of Congress are not really tied to their communities anymore in terms of how can they job?
国会议员们才是那些与现实被隔离开的人，因为这个需求应该是显而易见的。对于我们来说，全国各地社区的状况是一目了然的。问题在于，国会议员们与他们所在的社区已经不再紧密相连了，这影响了他们的工作方式。
Here's an idea and this solves a bunch of problems. What it's crazy. I think congressmen and congresswomen should be forced to stay in their district and never come to DC and only vote while sitting in their district. This way they can't be lobbied. It's too much traveling for the lobbyist to do. There's less backroom dealing. Every congressman just has to vote from their district. They should beam in like a Jedi council like whole of the style. That's great. It's like beam into it.
听我说一个主意，它可以解决很多问题。虽然听起来有点疯狂，但我认为国会议员应该被强迫待在自己的选区里，永远不要去华盛顿，只在选区里投票。这样他们就不能被游说了。对于游说者来说这太麻烦了。而且会有更少的背地里勾兑。每个议员都只需要在自己的选区里投票。他们应该像绝地议会那样通过电子信号传送进来。这太棒了，就像跳入画面中一样。
One of the most ridiculous things right now, James, is that Congress can even vote remotely. They have that as a rule. You have to look up and say how does that make any sense? There are members of Congress who think it's imperative that you physically congregate even in a pandemic in a large open room. Your suggestion is genius. I love it. If you could make it so that people were actually in their communities, they'd have a better grasp on what's happening.
现在最荒谬的事情之一是，国会可以进行远程投票。这是他们的规定。你得想，这有什么意义吗？国会成员中有些人认为即使在大流行期间，你也必须亲自聚集在一个大的开放空间中，这是必不可少的。你的建议太棒了，我喜欢它。如果你能让人们真正融入他们的社区，他们会更好地了解发生了什么。
One related point to this is that a lot of folks, their fondest dream is just to be in DC all the time. DC is where it's at, you feel all special and powerful and everyone sucking up to you all the time. People develop careers in DC and it shouldn't be a career town that way for our elected representatives. We should have term limits. You should go to DC, get trying to get something done and let's call it 10 or 12 years and then freaking piece out. When you come home again, that way you're more of a product of your community than you are of DC. But right now we know that more of our legislators are more products of DC than the other way around.
有一个相关的观点是，很多人最大的梦想就是一直呆在华盛顿特区。在DC，你感觉自己特别有权力，每个人都在巴结你。有些人在DC发展了自己的职业，但我们的民选代表不应该是这样的。我们应该有任期限制。你应该去DC努力工作，10或者12年后就要离开。这样当你回到家乡时，你会更多地受到社区的影响而不是DC的影响。但现在我们知道更多的立法者其实是受DC影响的。
So final thing I have to ask is, are we going to hear your voice in 2024? Why don't you run in 2024? I'm just going to say it. I'm still as passionate as ever about the fact that we have these massive problems and we need to speed up and try and address them. And if anything, another campaign would be easier, more fun and better than the last one because we'd be starting much further down the line. So as long as the problems are there, which unfortunately I think they will be and that I think I can do something to solve them, then I'm going to keep fighting for it and that could very well include another campaign.
最后一个问题我要问的是，我们会在2024年听到你的声音吗？为什么不参加2024年的选举呢？我就直说吧。我还是像以前一样充满激情地认为我们面临着巨大的问题，并且需要加速解决。如果有机会参加另一次竞选，那会更容易、更有趣，也会比上次竞选更好，因为我们已经开始往前走了。只要问题仍然存在，而不幸的是我认为它们会存在，而我认为我可以为解决问题做出一些贡献，那么我会继续为此而战，这很可能包括另一次竞选。
So people who are psyched about this campaign, please do follow me and my organization, my podcast, Yang speaks and let's keep on making the case, activate more people, solve these problems and then bring back the Yang Yang bigger, better than ever. Yeah, and the organization is humanity forward and a lot of your policies, candidates, your support, other things you're working on are there. I also highly recommend your book, The War and Normal People is a great treatise on your political philosophy and you explain things in such a succinct way. It's a great, there's a pleasure to read such a well written political book. I loved it.
那么，对于这项运动感到兴奋的人，请关注我和我的组织、我的播客《Yang讲话》，让我们继续提出论据、激活更多人，并解决这些问题，然后将“杨洋”带回来，比以往更强大、更出色。是的，这个组织叫做“面向人类未来”，你的许多政策、候选人、支持和其他事情在那里。我也非常推荐你的书《战争与普通人》，这是一篇关于你的政治哲学的伟大论述，你用简明扼要的方式解释了事情。这是一本很好的、写得很好的政治书，阅读它是一种愉悦。我很喜欢它。
And thanks for coming on the podcast, Andrew. I really appreciate it. This has been a great podcast for me and I hope you come on again at some point.
感谢你接受邀请参加播客，安德鲁。我真的很感激。这对我来说是一次很棒的播客，希望你以后还能再来。
Well, it's been a long time coming. I appreciate the heck out of you, your team, your support, James. I know you were one of the early adopters, the Yang Yang. So in my mind, my being on your podcast was always going to happen as a little bit overdue to a little longer than I'd hoped. But you were busy, you were busy writing for president. But yeah, enjoy the heck out of this conversation and yeah, keep up the awesome work. Thank you very much, Andrew, you too.
哎呀，这等待时间可真够长的。我非常感谢你、你的团队还有你的支持，James。我知道你是早期的采用者之一，很了不起。所以在我心里，能够在你的播客中露面一直都是必然的，虽然来得可能比我原本希望的晚了一些。但你很忙嘛，你忙着为总统撰写政策。无论如何，我很享受和你的对话，希望你一直保持这种绝妙的工作状态。非常感谢你，Andrew，你也一样。