CEO of World’s Biggest SWF Applies for Second Term

You are the CEO of Norghis or Norghis, depending on your pronunciation, investment management, which is the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world by far, about $1.7 trillion. So tell us what Norghis investment management really does and what your job is. Well, the job is to run the Norwegian Southern Wealth Fund. And it has many facets, of course, one is to leave the investment activity. It is also to develop the organization. There is quite a comprehensive framework around it, working with the board, the ministry, the supervisory board. There is a council of ethics, which keeps us out of an ethical investment and so on, so a lot of things involved in the world. So every sovereign wealth fund has somebody running it presumably, but virtually no other sovereign wealth fund that I am aware of has somebody who is a superstar private sector investor, a member of the giving pledge and somebody who has made a lot of money in the private sector. How did you come to do this job and leave your job running a very successful hedge fund? Yeah, that's interesting. So I have been running this company called AKO Capital for 15 years and I thought, you know what kind of learning is clattowing and I need to move on in life and do some other things. So I actually was starting to apply to go back to university and then this job came up and I thought, wow, it combines as management, it combines developing an organization and also to do something good for the country. So it was just perfect.

您是Norghis投资管理公司的首席执行官，这个名字可以不同发音。这家公司是全球最大的主权财富基金，资金规模达1.7万亿美元。请介绍一下Norghis投资管理究竟是做什么的以及您的工作内容是什么。 我的工作是管理挪威主权财富基金，这项工作涉及许多方面。其中一个方面是领导投资活动，另一个是发展公司组织。这项工作有非常全面的框架，包括与董事会、相关部门及监督委员会的合作。同时，我们还有一个伦理委员会，确保我们的投资符合道德标准，所以涉及的工作非常广泛。 每个主权财富基金都有人负责管理，但我所知道的几乎没有哪个基金的负责人是像您这样既是私人投资界的明星、又是捐赠誓言的成员，同时也在私人部门赚取了大量财富的人。您是如何从一个非常成功的对冲基金转而从事这份工作的呢？ 这确实很有趣。我曾经营名为AKO Capital的公司15年，我感到学习的速度在减缓，需要在生活中寻找新挑战。我当时还准备去大学继续进修，然后这份工作出现了。我觉得它结合了管理、企业发展以及为国家做贡献的机会，实在是再合适不过了。

So where did Norway get all of this money? I mean, 1.7 trillion dollars is a lot of money. Where did you get all this money? Well, you know, we've been drilling on the Norwegian shelf for a long time and actually this was in 69 in the autumn, like a cold day like today and they were on the last well and this was Philips operating a platform called Ocean Viking and then 2 o'clock in the morning, this platform chief was told to wake up, you know, the guy in charge and he's just like, hey, why do you wake up at 2 in the morning? He was like, you know what, we found some wine and it was the biggest find the world had ever seen of shore and then this was announced in the Norwegian population on the day before Christmas Eve, 69 and so that's where it started. So if Leif Ericson had not gone to North America and just stayed in Norway, it would have been better for Norway, right, because he could have discovered the oil there and not have gone look for riches in North America. QB, QB.

那么，挪威是从哪里得到这么多钱的呢？我的意思是，1.7万亿美元可是一大笔钱。你们到底是怎么赚到这些钱的呢？其实，我们在挪威大陆架上钻探已经有很长时间了。早在1969年秋天的一个寒冷日子，当时是在最后一口井上，菲利普斯公司（Philips）正在操作一个叫做"海洋维京"的平台。凌晨两点，平台负责人被叫醒，接到报告。他不明白为什么要在凌晨两点叫醒他，对方就说："我们发现石油了，"这是当时全球最大的海上石油发现。这个消息是在1969年圣诞节前夕告知挪威人的。事情就是从那时开始的。如果当年莱夫·埃里克森没有去北美，而是留在了挪威，那么对挪威来说可能会更好，因为他可能会发现这些石油，而不是去北美寻找财富。哈哈，真有趣。

So let's talk about the current investment environment. As we talk today, President Trump has been inaugurated in the United States. Are you worried about some of the America first policies that he has said he's going to pursue or as a global investment manager doesn't really make a difference to you? Well, it's a complex question because we are a global investor, right? So if we then first disregard all types of policies which can impact society and just look at it from a pure financial point of view, I think in the short term, it'd be really good for our companies in America. There will be less regulation, there will be more growth, so that's positive. Now, of course, if there are lots of tariffs, or European companies will be hit by it, so that'd be negative. And then of course also, there is a big question whether the policies will be inflationary, which would be bad news in the long term.

那我们来谈谈当前的投资环境。就在我们今天对话的时候，美国的特朗普总统已经宣誓就职。您是否担心他所倡导的“美国优先”政策，还是作为一名全球投资经理，这对您而言影响不大？ 这个问题比较复杂，因为我们是全球投资者。首先，如果我们先不考虑所有可能对社会产生影响的政策，只从纯粹的财务角度来看，我认为短期内对我们在美国的公司会非常有利。监管会减少，增长会更多，这是积极的。然而，如果有很多关税，欧洲公司会受到影响，这将是负面的。当然，还有一个很大的问题是这些政策是否会导致通货膨胀，从长远来看，这将是个坏消息。

So let's talk for a moment about the gorgeous investment management. When was it actually set up? The oil was discovered in 1969? Yeah. So when was this organization set up? It was set up in 1996. And the first deposit there was like 2 billion Norwegian grown-er, it's grown to 20,000 billion. So good growth. So now, the money that comes in from the oil, and you invest it, does that money go to every citizen in the way every year, or does it just stay in the central reserve for the use of the government? Well, I would say there are a couple of clever things that the politicians did at the time. They also established what is called the spending rule. So you can only spend 3% of the fund every year, and 3% of the fund goes into the budget. Now, the fund is now so large that it accounts for 25%, between 20 and 25% of the state budget. But I think it's very good to have that rule in place.

那么让我们来谈谈这个美妙的投资管理。这个组织是什么时候成立的？石油是在1969年发现的，对吧？那么这个组织是什么时候成立的呢？它是在1996年成立的。当时的初始存款大约是20亿挪威克朗，而现在已经增长到2万亿。增长相当不错。那么，石油收入进去后，你们会投资这些资金，这些钱每年会分给每位公民吗，还是会留在中央储备供政府使用？嗯，我觉得当时的政治家们做了一些很聪明的决定。他们还设立了一个所谓的支出规则。每年只能动用基金的3个百分点，而这3%会用于预算。现在，这个基金已经大到占据国家预算的20%到25%。但我认为有这样一个规则是非常好的。

So 25% of a government's budget comes from what you do every year? Yeah, and my 700 colleagues. How many people actually work for you? Well, so we got roughly 700. We got 100 in New York, 114 in London, we got 14 Singapore, and the rest would be in Oslo. So people pay enormous amount of attention to your investment successes. Everybody in Norway look every day in the newspapers and see how you're doing, because that will affect Norway's government or not. Well, not only every day. We have it on our website. We have a ticker, which shows the real value of the fund at all times, and it's updated 13 times every second. That's a lot of pressure. Every hour people pay attention to what you're doing. Absolutely.

所以，每年你的工作为政府预算贡献了25%吗？是的，还有我那700名同事。那么，实际上有多少人跟你一起工作呢？我们大约有700人。在纽约有100人，在伦敦有114人，新加坡有14人，其余的都在奥斯陆。所以大家对你们的投资成功非常关注。挪威的每个人每天都会在报纸上查看你们的表现，因为这会影响挪威政府的经济状况吗？不仅每天，我们的网站上有一个显示基金实时价值的滚动条，每秒更新13次。压力很大吧？每小时都有很多人关注你们的工作。确实是这样的。

So your job, though, is to oversee several hundred people making investment decisions. Do they come to you if it's a really big investment decision and say we're going to put a hundred million dollars in something? Or is it you're just doing strategic things and you're not making individual investment decisions? Well, since it's such a large fund, you need to be pretty index-nair in what you're doing. And we have a very good investment mandate, which we get from the Ministry of Finance, and then we follow that. And then we have decentralized the various investment mandates within the firm.

所以你的工作是负责监督几百个人进行投资决策。如果是特别大的投资决策，比如要投入一亿美元，他们会来找你商量吗？还是说你只是做一些战略性的工作，而不参与具体的投资决策？由于基金规模很大，你需要在行动中保持相当的客观性。我们有一个非常好的投资指令，是由财政部提供的，我们遵循这个指令。此外，我们已在公司内将不同的投资指令进行了去中心化管理。

So do people in Norway or the government criticize you saying you bought too much Apple stock or you didn't buy enough Apple stock or you don't get those kind of criticisms? That's exactly right. So we always make mistakes and that's always in the papers. Because either you have too much or you have too little, or when you own a bit of 9,000 companies across the world, there is always something going on somewhere and we always own it. So we are always criticized.

在挪威，是否有人或政府批评你买太多苹果股票或者买得不够，或者没有收到这类批评？确实如此。我们总是会犯错，这种事情总是会出现在报纸上。因为无论是持有太多还是太少，或者当你在全球拥有约9000家公司的股份时，总会有事情正在发生，而我们总是参与其中。所以我们总是会受到批评。

So if you own a piece of 9,000 companies and you only invest in publicly traded companies, if you own that many companies, are you not really an index fund and are you going to get better rates of return than any index fund is going to get? Well, we are in a way, we are a very index-nair fund. And we have had better returns than the index over the years. We will perform by some 20 basis points per year for 28 years or so. And we are doing it at lower costs than index funds. We are super cost efficient. So you're getting roughly rates of return of 5 or 6% a year, I assume, something like that. 6 or 7. Okay, 6 or 7% a year. And that's roughly on average 20 basis points over then what index funds are typically doing. Yeah. Well, why I'm just curious as somebody who's been in private equity, why don't you go into the private equity world? Because over the last 20 or 30 years, private equity has done pretty well, private investments. How come you will resist that? Yeah. So the fund or the board have suggested to the ministry several times that we think private equity would be a good thing. So far, the answer has been no. And there is a political process going on where they will now make a decision on that. The reasons have been fees. The fees aren't high enough or? No. Some people think they are too high. Yeah, too high. Transparency hasn't been good enough. There hasn't been enough kind of ESG considerations and so on. And so those have been the historic reasons. Now, you know, the world is clearly changing. There are a few companies listed on the stock exchange. The private market is much bigger. You get probably better fees than we did in a past and so on. So these are considerations that the ministry will make.

因此，如果您拥有9000家公司的股份，并且只投资于上市公司，那么如果您拥有那么多公司的股票，您不就是一个指数基金吗？您会获得比任何指数基金更高的回报率吗？可以说，我们在某种程度上是一个非常依赖指数的基金。多年来，我们的回报率确实高于指数基金。我们每年大约有20个基点的超额表现，持续了大约28年。而且，我们的成本比指数基金更低。我们在成本效益方面非常出色。所以，我猜测你每年的回报率大概是5%到6%左右？6%或7%。好吧，6%到7%每年。这大概平均比指数基金高出20个基点。是的。那么，为什么作为一个曾参与私人股本的人，我很好奇你们为什么不进入私人股本领域？因为在过去的20或30年里，私人股本表现得相当不错，私人投资也是如此。你们是如何抗拒这个趋势的呢？是的。基金或董事会多次向部委建议，我们认为私人股本将是一个好选择。但到目前为止，答案是没有。他们正在进行一个政治进程，现在将在这一问题上做出决定。过去的理由是费用问题。费用不够高吗？不是的。有些人认为费用太高了。透明度不够好，没有足够的ESG（环境、社会及公司治理）考虑等等。这些一直是历史原因。不过，现在世界显然在变化。上市公司的数量减少了，私人市场大得多。你可能会得到比以前更好的费用等。因此，这些都是部委将要考虑的问题。

As we talk today, in the United States at least ESG and DEI seem to be in less favor than they were maybe two or three years ago. Is that the case in Norway? No. Oh, so you don't really care what the US is doing in this regard? Well, there is clearly a backlash against ESG, right? But the policies we have, they are anchored in the parliament and so we are not changing our mind. We think it's important with client reporting, we think diversity is good and so on. So in most Scandinavian countries, I think certainly in Norway, there is concern about climate change and there is a lot of interest in renewable energy. But you make your money from non-renewable energy. So is there an incongruity when you are making all this money from carbonized kind of chemicals and fuels, but you really don't believe in that to some extent. How do you square that? We believe in it and we do think that in particular the gas that Norway produces, which is a very high proportion of the gas supply in Europe, is very, very important. And it continues to be a big part of the energy supply and important for security for many, many years to come.

目前在美国，至少从表面上看，ESG（环境、社会和治理）和DEI（多样性、公平和包容）似乎没有两三年前那么受欢迎。那在挪威也是这样吗？不是这样的。那么你们并不在意美国在这方面的做法吗？其实有明显的反对声浪存在，但我们的政策是建立在议会的基础上的，因此我们不会改变立场。我们认为客户报告很重要，我们认为多样性是好事。在大多数斯堪的纳维亚国家，尤其是挪威，我们对气候变化表示关注，并且对可再生能源很感兴趣。但是你们的收入来自不可再生能源，这不是一种矛盾吗？一方面从碳化学品和燃料中赚钱，但另一方面又不大支持这样的能源，你们如何调和这种矛盾？我们相信这点，并且特别认为挪威生产的天然气——在欧洲供应中占有很大比例——非常重要。它仍将在今后许多年里继续成为能源供应的重要部分，并对安全保障起到关键作用。

Let's talk about your own background. You weren't just working your way up in the government of the Nordics investment management. You were very successful, as I said earlier, in the private sector. Where were you born? I was born in a small town in southern Norway, Christian Sand, which not many people have heard about. And were your parents investment managers? No, my mother worked in the public sector with museums and art and my father was an entrepreneur. And where did you go to school? I started off in Norway. I studied Russian in the intelligence service. I went to work in the business undergrad and then I have done some degrees afterwards. I've done one in art history and one in social psychology. Is it unusual for somebody in Norway to go to college at Wharton School in Philadelphia? It's a great school. It's pretty easy. It's not so common.

让我们聊一下你的背景。你不仅仅是在北欧投资管理的政府部门中逐步晋升，你还在私人企业领域取得了很大成功。你是在哪里出生的？我出生在挪威南部一个叫克里斯蒂安桑的小镇，知道这个地方的人不多。你的父母是投资经理吗？不是的，我母亲在公共部门工作，涉及博物馆和艺术，我父亲是一名企业家。你在哪里上的学？我首先在挪威学习。我在情报部门学过俄语，然后在企业管理本科工作，之后我还取得了一些学位，其中一个是艺术史，另一个是社会心理学。对于挪威人来说，去费城的沃顿商学院读书算不算不寻常？那是所很棒的学校，但去读书的人并不多。

So when you went to Wharton and you said you're from Norway, did people in Wharton say, where is that? Of course. And did they make fun of Norway? Did they say you were Viking or something like that? Yeah. I was. Okay. Okay. So you graduate from Wharton and you get other degrees, you set up your own hedge fund. I mean, the cool thing is, you know, you come from Norway, which is like a very egalitarian society and it's all about being very humble and so on. And then you come to Wharton, which is just like the opposite. It's like, I remember, you know, when I went to Klaus Monday and he says, Hey, what do you guys want to do? I just want to conquer the world and everybody applaud. I didn't say that. But somebody else said that, you know, people have plotted. And it was just like a mindset, totally different.

所以，当你去了沃顿商学院并说你来自挪威时，沃顿的人会问挪威在哪里吗？当然会。他们有没有取笑挪威，比如说你是维京人之类的？是的，我是。好的，好的。那么你从沃顿毕业后拿到了其他学位，然后建立了自己的对冲基金。一个很酷的事情是，你来自挪威，一个非常平等的社会，人人都非常谦虚。然后你来到沃顿，这完全相反。我记得，有一次在一堂课上，教授问大家想做什么，有人回答说想征服世界，结果大家都鼓掌。我没有这样说，但别人说了，而别人就鼓掌。这种心态完全不同。

So you didn't find a lot of humility at Wharton? Not so much. Okay. So, okay. So you graduated, did you go into the private sector right away? Yeah. I went then became an analyst with a stock working firm. I was, was, went there, worked there for five years. Then I joined my largest client, which was a hedge fund and one of the earliest hedge funds in Europe. Where was it based? London. All right. So you worked out of London. Yeah. When did you say I'm going to start, set up my own hedge fund? Well, so that was a bit afterwards because I had worked for this hedge fund for five years and made some money and I took a break. So I did a master's in art history and, but realized I wasn't very good at it. So how do you know you're not good at art history? I mean, you don't measure it the way you do investments. Why you get feedback from the professor that you are, you're not the brightest thing.

你在沃顿商学院没有学到太多谦逊吗？好像是这样的。好的。那么，你毕业后马上进入私营部门工作了吗？是的，我当时成了一家证券公司的分析师。在那里工作了五年，然后我加入了我的最大客户，那是一家对冲基金，也是欧洲最早的对冲基金之一。它在哪里呢？伦敦。好的，所以你是在伦敦工作。是的。那么你什么时候决定成立自己的对冲基金呢？哦，那是在之后的事情了，因为我在这家对冲基金工作了五年，赚了一些钱后，我休息了一下。于是，我读了艺术史的硕士，但意识到自己不太擅长。你怎么知道自己不擅长艺术史呢？这不像投资那样有明确的衡量标准。因为教授反馈我说，我不是最聪明的那个。

Okay. So I thought, Hey, I'm better at looking at stocks than paintings. And so let's set up these firms instead. But you built a big art collection so you must know something about art. Yeah, but it's easier to buy art than write about art. Okay. So you set up your own hedge fund eventually. Yeah. And how big was it before you stopped it? Just under 20 billion dollars. So it was one of the largest funds in Europe. And, oh, I'm really proud of what we did there. We had many of the largest endowments and universities in the world investing with us. So it was a fantastic thing. So you have 20 billion dollar hedge fund and you're averaging rates of return. I assume that are in double digit kinds of areas, right? And so when you got this opportunity to run gorgeous investment management, to do say to your family, guess what? I'm not going to be making that much money anymore. And we have to live more conservatively. Yeah. And what did they say? They were happy with that? Yeah. Wow. I guess. I mean, it's not like, I mean, I've got enough money to buy food and shoes. But usually hedge fund managers don't say they need to have enough money to buy the food. They want to buy airplanes and art and other things.

好的。我想，嘿，我看股票看得比看画好。所以我们不如创办这些公司。但你建立了一个庞大的艺术收藏，所以你一定对艺术有所了解。是的，但买艺术品比写关于艺术的东西容易。好的，那你最终成立了自己的对冲基金。是的。在你结束之前，它有多大？接近200亿美元。所以它是欧洲最大的基金之一。哦，我为我们在那里所做的事情感到非常自豪。我们有世界上许多最大捐赠基金和大学在和我们投资。这是一件很棒的事情。所以，你有一个200亿美元的对冲基金，并且回报率平均是两位数，对吧？然后，当你有机会运营顶尖投资管理公司时，你对你的家人说，猜猜看？我不会再赚那么多钱了，我们得过得节俭点。他们怎么说？他们对此感到满意吗？是的，哇，我想是吧。我是说，我有足够的钱买食物和鞋子。但通常对冲基金经理不会说他们只需要有足够的钱买食物，他们想买飞机、艺术品和其他东西。

Yeah. And I think that's a misconstrued perception of what happiness is. You know, in my mind, happiness is about learning. That's how you measure happiness, is how much you have learned. You know, some people say, you know, you measure success by how many. Who's got the most money when they die? And I just think that's totally failure. I mean, the person who's got the most money when he or she dies, that they have lost. They haven't got it. Oh, I didn't realize that. So, you've done this. All right. So I got something I got to learn. But okay. So, all right. So you set up your hedge fund, but when you left your hedge fund, did you have other people running? Is it still around? Absolutely. Still around. So it was a fantastic thing. It's been a great transition to the next generation. Really, really nice. They are doing better than ever. And it's just a total win-win.

好的。我认为这是一种对幸福的误解。在我看来，幸福在于学习。衡量幸福的方法就是看你学到了多少。有些人认为成功是通过看你在死时拥有多少财富来衡量的，而我觉得那完全是失败的。一个死时拥有最多钱的人，实际上是失败者。他们没有真正抓住幸福。我之前没意识到这一点。那么，你已经做到了这一点。那么，我还有些需要学习的地方。好的。所以，你成立了自己的对冲基金，但当你离开时，有其他人在管理吗？它还在运营吗？当然，还在。它过渡得非常好，进入了下一代的发展，真的非常好。他们比以前做得更好，这真是一个双赢的局面。

So, but when I left for the position in Norway, I had to give away my ownership stake. So I gave it to a charitable foundation. And so the stake in the hedge fund is funding that charitable foundation. So you did so well that you actually joined the giving pledge. Yeah. Right. Which means you've got a net worth of at least a billion dollars or so. Are you the only person in Norway that signed the giving pledge? There's one more. One more. Okay. So when you go to the giving pledge meetings, do you say, guess what? I'm giving away money now, but I'm really running the Norway sovereign wealth fund or you don't, people don't talk to you about what you do now. No, no. They talk about that too. And that's what we meant. That's correct.

所以，当我离开去挪威工作时，我不得不放弃我的所有权股份，于是我将它捐给了一个慈善基金会。这个对冲基金的股份现在正在为那个慈善基金会提供资金。你做得那么好，以至于你加入了捐赠誓言。是的。这意味着你的净资产至少有十亿美元左右。你是挪威唯一一个签署捐赠誓言的人吗？还有一个人。好的。有时候你去参加捐赠誓言会议，你会说，猜猜看？我现在在捐钱，但实际上我在管理挪威的主权财富基金，还是人们不讨论你现在的工作？不不，他们也谈到了这一点，那就是我们的意义所在。对的。

So for five years, you've been running this fund and done pretty well, obviously. Now your term is up. You have another five-year term you could get. I applied last week. You applied? Can you have to apply? You already have the job. No, it has to be, you have to apply again. So I updated my CV and applied. Wow. Okay. Did anybody else apply? Yeah. I think so. I mean, I don't know. It's, I don't know. I mean, when it comes to this, I'm very, very humble. If they find anybody else who's better at doing that job, he or she should get that job, right? It's a very important position in the country. And so I have applied. I hope I will get an extension. If not, I need to do something else.

所以，过去五年里，你一直在管理这个基金，并且表现得相当不错。现在你的任期已满，你可以再申请一个五年的任期。我上周已经申请了。你申请了？你必须申请吗？你已经有这份工作了。不，必须再次申请。所以我更新了我的简历并递交了申请。哇，好吧。还有其他人申请了吗？是的，我想是的。我也不是很清楚。对于这件事，我非常谦虚。如果他们找到更适合这个职位的人，那么这个职位应该由他或她来担任，对吧？这是国家一个非常重要的职位。所以我已经申请了，希望能获得续任。如果没有，我就需要做点别的事情。

So you're willing to do another five years. Yeah. And your compensation as the person running it is modest, I assume, compared to what you used to make. Yeah, it's a well-paid job, but it's, of course, it's a public sector job. Okay. So any thought about going into politics and running for government positions, prime minister or something like that? No. You don't want to go into that. Not no interest in that. And what about anything after you're finished? Let's suppose you do another five years. Yeah. And for ten years of this, you probably would say that's enough.

所以你愿意再做五年。是的。作为负责人，你的薪酬相对于过去来说比较温和，我想。是的，这是一个待遇不错的工作，但当然，这是一个公共部门的工作。那么你有没有想过进入政界，竞选政府职位，比如首相之类的？没有。我对那个没有兴趣。那你完成这份工作之后有什么打算呢？假设你再做五年，加起来有十年，你可能会觉得这就够了。

Well, I'm going to spend the rest of my life, hopefully doing good things, you know? I'd love to go back to university at some stage, do a little bit of degree, learn some more things. Art history, but you're not that good at that, so you would do something else you think of. Okay. But you have a big art collections, though. And what area do you collect art? Well, we have the biggest collection of Nordic modernist art, and we've given that to our museum, which opened last year. New York Times recently said it was one of the 50 most important places to go in 2025, so you all have to go, of course.

好吧，我打算用余生尽量做些好事，你懂的。我希望有一天能回到大学，学一些学位，增长更多知识。比如艺术史，但你不太擅长，所以会考虑做其他事情。好的。不过你有一个很大的艺术收藏。那你收藏什么领域的艺术？嗯，我们有收藏最大规模的北欧现代艺术，并已经将它捐赠给我们去年开设的博物馆。《纽约时报》最近说这是2025年50个最重要的去处之一，所以你们都应该去看看。

So if somebody is watching this and they've never been the Norway, what would you say about what is great about Norway that would deserve their visiting? What is Norway? What can you see in Norway? Well, the nature is unrivaled. I mean, it's just like Switzerland with a lot of sea around it, right? And it's absolutely beautiful. You're really close to the fjord, you're close to the mountains, it's good for skiing, it's good for hiking, it's perfect. And not too many people, so it's not so crowded. Well, how many total people are there in? Five million. Five million.

如果有人在看这个视频，但他们从未去过挪威，你会如何介绍挪威的美好之处，让他们觉得值得去游玩？挪威是什么样的？在挪威可以看到什么？主要是自然景观无与伦比。可以说，它就像周围环绕着大海的瑞士，风景非常优美。你可以很近距离地欣赏峡湾和山脉，非常适合滑雪和徒步旅行，完美无比。而且人口不多，所以不会很拥挤。挪威总共有多少人口呢？五百万。五百万。

So when Alfred Nobel was developing his Nobel Prizes, he had the Prizes being given by people in Sweden. Swedish academies. But he didn't think the Swedes were peaceful, loving people, so he said the peace price is given by people in Norway. So Norway is very peaceful. Yes. And you have no interest in getting involved in international diplomatic things or something like that? No. And your children, are they interested in investing? No. Thankfully, I mean thank God for that, because I think in my mind you just don't want to follow your parents. You want to create your own destiny, you don't want to be measured against the success of your parents. I don't really believe in inheritance, I think. To be inherited to a lot of money is not a good thing. If you are successful, it's just because you inherited a lot of money and if you fail, you are a total failure because you started with a lot of money and you didn't manage to do it. So I just think it's so, you know, letting them do what they want.

所以，阿尔弗雷德·诺贝尔在设立诺贝尔奖的时候，规定由瑞典的人来颁发这些奖项，也就是瑞典的学术机构。但是他认为瑞典人不够和平友善，所以他决定让挪威的人来颁发和平奖，因为挪威是一个非常和平的国家。是的。你对参与国际外交事务有兴趣吗？没有。那么你的孩子对投资有兴趣吗？没有。谢天谢地，因为我认为不该跟着父母的脚步。你应该创造自己的命运，而不是以父母的成功作为衡量标准。我不太相信遗产。继承大量财富并不是一件好事。如果你成功了，那只是因为你继承了很多钱；如果你失败了，那就是彻底失败，因为你本来有很多钱却没有管理好。所以我认为，让他们去做自己想做的事情才是最好的。

So you ever go to reunions at Wharton and say I wasn't bragging about? I wasn't a board, I wasn't a board. You weren't for some time now. And but they, I guess they asked for contributions from time to time. Yeah. And okay. I did give them my bidding. But all the people in your class who were bragging about how great they were and they were at a conquer the world, did you ever show up and say, look, you're the guy that actually did it and you didn't brag about it. You didn't say that? I never felt that I conquered the world. No. Okay.

你是否曾经去参加沃顿商学院的校友会，然后说我从来没吹嘘过自己？我不是董事会成员，从来都不是。你也有一段时间不是吧。不过他们时不时会邀请你捐款。好吧，我确实给了他们我的意见。但班上那些总爱吹嘘自己有多厉害、要征服世界的人，你有没有出现然后对他们说："看，我才是那个真正成功的人，而且我从来没吹嘘过。"？你有没有这么说过？我从来没有觉得我征服了世界。没有。好吧。

So today, if I was looking for some good investment ideas, let's suppose somebody's watching and say, what is the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world thinking as a good idea? What would you say are a couple of good ideas? No, I think if you are a long-term investor, like we are, you want to be widely diversified across asset classes, across geographies. It's very, very tough to do this tactical asset allocation. I think that's nearly impossible. And the best thing to do is always to do the opposite of everybody else. And what will that be today? Well, if you were to do the opposite of everybody else, it would be to sell the US tech stocks, buy China, sell private credit, just buy stuff which is out of fashion. But it's very, very tough to do. Because if you are contrarian and you are different from your benchmarks and so on, there will be periods where you end up a form. And everybody is going to question your sanity.

今天，如果我在寻找一些好的投资理念，假设有人问，现在全球最大的主权财富基金认为哪些是不错的投资方向？你会说有哪些好主意呢？我认为，如果你是像我们这样的长期投资者，你需要在不同的资产类别和地域上进行广泛的多元化分散投资。进行这种战术性的资产配置是非常困难的，我认为几乎不可能。最好的策略往往是和大多数人做相反的事情。那今天这意味着什么呢？如果你要与众不同，那就是卖出美国科技股，买入中国市场的资产，卖出私人信贷，买入那些目前不流行的东西。但这非常困难，因为如果你采取逆向投资策略，与市场基准不同，那你会经历一些阶段性落后的时候，大家会质疑你的决策是否理智。

What about artificial intelligence? Is that a good area in the vest? It has been fantastic. And we have made a lot of money for the fund. The biggest contributors of the last few years have, of course, been the big American AI companies. And I polled people in Norgas just before Christmas, but I asked them how much more efficient are you now because of the new tools? And on average, people thought they were 15% more efficient. Really good. So Nvidia is still a good stock to buy? Well, that I don't know. But for sure, they make good products.

关于人工智能呢？这是个好投资领域吗？这确实是个很棒的领域，而且我们为基金赚了很多钱。过去几年最大的贡献者当然是大型美国人工智能公司。在圣诞节前，我在Norgas进行了一次调查，询问人们因为这些新工具的帮助，现在工作效率提高了多少。平均来看，人们觉得他们的效率提高了15%。这真的很不错。那么，Nvidia仍然是值得购买的股票吗？这个我不清楚。但可以肯定的是，他们的产品很好。

So today, when you look at your investment team, did they come in every week and say, here are some ideas we have? And do you tell them, yes, no, yes, no? Or do you just listen to what they recommend? Well, they would decide. I think, you know, in order to really judge how they're doing, they need to be totally accountable. And you can't interfere in the investment process. So I don't interfere in their investment process. So are your employees mostly Norwegian? Are they from all nationalities? 50-50. And what about the Americans as well? Of course. Of course. Good people. And what about pushing for more private equity allocations? You're not ready for that yet? We're not pushing. We have even more advice to the government than we'll see what they come up with.

所以今天，当你看你的投资团队时，他们是否每周都会提出一些想法？你会告诉他们哪些可以，哪些不行吗？还是仅仅听取他们的建议？其实，他们自己会做决定。为了真正评估他们的表现，他们需要对自己的工作完全负责，因此我不会干涉他们的投资过程。你们的员工主要是挪威人吗？还是来自各个国家？一半一半。那么美国人呢？当然有。都是很棒的人。那么对于增加私募股权的配置呢？你还没有准备好吗？我们没有在推动。这方面我们提供给政府更多建议，看看他们会提出什么。

So today, are you worried about your borders because of what's going on in Russia and Ukraine? Is that something you worry about in terms of the impact of Russia-Ukraine on your investment appetite for things like that? No, it's not really, you know, we have real tragedies many places in the world, but I'm not worried about Russia invading Norway anytime soon. We are a member of NATO. We do border to Russia. But now, since Finland and Sweden joined NATO, we feel stronger than before. Okay, so today, what would you say your biggest investment concerns are? You're running $1.7 trillion fund for the average person who's not managing that much money. What should they be worrying about and what are you worrying about?

所以今天，你是否因为俄罗斯和乌克兰的局势而担心国境安全？这是否影响你对类似领域的投资兴趣？其实并不太担心。世界上有很多真实的悲剧，但我并不担心俄罗斯近期会入侵挪威。我们是北约成员国，与俄罗斯接壤。但现在随着芬兰和瑞典加入北约，我们比以前感觉更强大了。那么今天你最大的投资关注是什么？你在管理1.7万亿美元资金，对于不管理那么多钱的一般人来说，他们应该担心什么，而你又在担心什么？

No, I think you've got two things. One, you have the known and knowns, right? And there at the top of my list would be two things. One is inflation because I think there is an argument in a tight labor market when you potentially decline the supply, or to reduce the supply of labor in the US. You put on tariffs. These things can be inflationary. And there could be a moment where, given the high level of government debt, that the investors certainly decide, you know what, we want a much higher coupon to lend to governments. And so you could see a step up in interest rates, which could be negative financial markets. Then, of course, all the AI-related stocks, the epicenter here is Taiwan, so you need to watch that. And then, the thing is that the thing that really scares us when it happens is the unexpected, you know? Whether it be a meltdown of nuclear reactors in Japan or a COVID or financial crisis, it's the stuff you cannot model which really de-raise markets. And they come about every so often, and there will be another one coming up.

不，我认为你有两个问题。第一，你有已知和已知的情况，对吧？在我的列表顶部会有两件事情。第一是通货膨胀，因为在劳动力市场紧张的情况下，当你可能减少美国的劳动力供应时，加上关税，这些因素可能导致通胀。而在政府债务高企的情况下，投资者可能会要求更高的利率来借钱给政府，这会导致利率上升，对金融市场产生负面影响。 当然，还有所有与人工智能相关的股票，热点在台湾，所以需要关注。而真正让人担心的，是那些意想不到的事情。比如日本的核反应堆崩溃，或者COVID疫情、金融危机等，这些都是无法预测却会对市场造成巨大冲击的事件。这类事件不时会发生，而且未来还会再次出现。

So, let's suppose I'm one of the people interviewing you for your re-application at this job for the next five years. What would you say is the reason that you deserve the job? You've done pretty well, or you like the job, or people are happy, or your rate of return has been very good. What would you say is the reason you should get this job? It's a bit odd to market myself for a job on TV. While you're too modest for that. The organization has done well. It's a real teamwork. We built a really great team. We have done a lot of great things. We are now the most transparent fund in the world. We've done a lot of things like that. There is always lower risk to take the incumbent than changing. But as I said, there are pros and cons, and there are other people out there who are really, really excellent.

好，我们假设我是面试你再续这个工作五年的面试官。你会怎么说你值得得到这个工作呢？你表现得很好，或者你喜欢这份工作，或者大家都很满意，或者你的回报率很高。你会怎么说为什么你应该得到这个工作呢？ 在电视上为自己推销工作有点奇怪。而你对此过于谦虚。这个组织运作得很好，真的是团队合作。我们组建了一个很棒的团队，做了很多了不起的事情。我们现在是世界上最透明的基金之一，我们做了很多类似的事情。选择现任者的风险总是比改变要低。但正如我所说，这其中利弊参半，外面还有其他非常优秀的人。

Now, sovereign wealth fund leaders, do they get together from time to time and change ideas? Like whoever it is? Yeah, we do. It's great, actually. There is a lot of cooperation between the large funds. And when you see the other people running these big funds, do you ever say, how do they get this job? Or you say, boy, they're really smart. Oh, they're generally really smart. Not how they get this job. They're all pretty good. Oh, they're generally really smart.

那么，主权财富基金的领导者们，他们会时不时聚在一起交流想法吗？像是谁呢？是的，我们确实会这样做。实际上，这非常好。大型基金之间有很多合作。当你看到其他管理这些大基金的人时，你会不会想，他们是怎么得到这个职位的？或者你会想，他们真聪明。哦，他们通常都很聪明。不会想他们是怎么得到这个职位的。他们都挺优秀的。哦，他们通常都很聪明。

And today, what would you say you're most proud of having achieved in your five years? There are so many things that can go wrong when you run a large fund like that. And I would say there haven't been any major disasters. And that's good. And that's because of the great team we have working together. And I thought of running a Norwegian tracking fund that basically let people invest their money, just tracks your fund, and they could do that. No, there'd be some talks about it, but no, that's not going to happen. And I'm never going to do run money again after this job. This is my last money job. You're not going to go back and manage money again. Why not? Just you've made enough money in.

今天，在过去的五年中，你最引以为傲的成就是什么？管理如此庞大的基金，有很多可能出错的地方。我认为没有发生任何重大灾难，这很好。这是因为我们有一个优秀的团队共同努力。我曾考虑过运行一个挪威的追踪基金，让人们可以将他们的资金投资其中，并随着你的基金一起波动。虽然有过一些讨论，但这不会实现。在这份工作之后，我不会再管理资金了。这是我最后一次从事资金管理的工作。你不会回去再管理资金了。为什么？是不是因为你已经赚够了钱。

No, it's not that. It's just like I've had this job. I think it's the most fun job in global finance, and I just don't think there's anything else out there. So what do you do for outside activities? Are you a skier or are you some other kind of outs that were in activities? Well, I spend a lot of time in nature. I walk in the forest. I do cross-country skiing. I pick mushrooms in the autumn. You do what? Mushrooms? Not the magic, but the ones you have. No, I'm trying to. What do you pick them? Are you grow them or what? No, you walk around in the forest and you pick wild mushrooms and you go home and you cook them and you make, you know, like Chanterel spaghetti. Wow, that's unusual. I have to be right. And then I sail. I do a lot of sailing. Sailing. Sailing. Sailing. You're sailor.

不，不是那样的。只是因为我已经有了这份工作。我认为这是全球金融中最有趣的工作，而且我觉得外面没有别的工作能比得上。所以你在工作之外做什么活动呢？你滑雪吗？或者参加其他什么户外活动吗？嗯，我经常待在大自然中。我在森林里散步，进行越野滑雪，秋天的时候采摘蘑菇。你采什么？蘑菇？不是那种神奇的蘑菇，而是可以吃的那种。哦，我明白了。你是种蘑菇吗？不，我是在森林里四处走走，采摘野生蘑菇，然后带回家烹饪，做一些像是牛肝菌意大利面这样的食物。哇，这挺特别的吧。对我来说是。然后我还航海，我经常去航海。航海，航海。你是一位水手。

And are you doing competitions or things? Well, I did competition in the past. You know, I did like sitting in a whole bar and all that kind of stuff. You're sailing. Do the people give you a right away because you're running the biggest head sovereign love fund? They don't give you a little bit of head start or something? Wow. Okay, so, generally, you, like me, as a very happy person. And I finally don't find that many happy people in the investment world. They're always worried about something else, but you're pretty happy. So how did you get to be so happy? I think it has to do with how you define. Well, first of all, you have to figure out what is it that makes you happy. And I do think people mistake that quite often. You know, you just try to make more money, try to buy more things. That's not where true happiness comes from. It comes from spending time with friends and family and learning. And in terms of learning, you know, as you know, I also do have podcast and I learn a lot through that podcast. Okay. Well, what are you going to be on it at some stage? I will. But where did you meet your wife? At a nightclub. A nightclub. Yeah. But we were introduced through some friends. And interestingly, it wasn't just a regular pickup. It was, you know, it was organized. It was organized. Okay. But the thing was that first time I asked her, she said, no. And so that's just like why I never take no for an answer. But you didn't say I'm going to be the, I'm running the, no, no, no. No, no, this was a little way before. I know, but you didn't say something. I was really poor. You were not wealthy then. Oh, I had no money. Just lots of debt. And I said, no. All right. So today, if you're giving advice to somebody that's watching this about how to be a good investment manager, what is the single most important piece of investment advice you could give somebody? Learn, learn, learn. And the combination of being stubborn and agile, you know, you have to stick with your guns. You have to believe in what you do. You have to be able to contrarian. But when things change, you have to change your mind. That's the rarest combination in investment management. So you think humility is better than arrogance and a good investor? Well, you need to be confidently confident humility is the magic. Have you ever met Warren Buffett? No. Really? And no interest in meeting? Have you seen Caud for advice? Not to me, but he hasn't called you for ideas or anything like that? No. No, but he, I haven't met him. Well, I, well, I briefly, I met him briefly. Okay. So is there one person that is a role model for you if it's not Warren Buffett? Maybe it is, even though you have a met him. Is there anybody you would say is somebody you have as a role model in the investment area? Well, I think it's difficult to not mention Bill Gates as a role model if you are a philanthropist because you make a lot of money and then you are very organized and structured in the way you give it away. I think that's really impressive. Oh, okay.

好的，你会参加一些比赛或者类似的活动吗？嗯，我以前参加过比赛。你知道的，我做过那种坐在吧台里面的比赛之类的事情。你在航海。人们会因为你管理着最大的主权财富基金而让你优先通过吗？他们不会给你一点先发优势吗？哇哦。好的，总的来说，你和我一样，是一个很快乐的人。我发现投资界的快乐人并不多，他们总是担心别的事情，而你看起来非常快乐。那么你是怎么变得这么快乐的呢？ 我认为这与如何定义快乐有关。首先，你必须弄清楚什么让你快乐。我确实认为人们常常误解这一点。你知道的，只是试图赚更多的钱，试图买更多的东西，那不是幸福的真正来源。幸福来自于和朋友家人共度时光和学习。而在学习方面，你知道的，我也有自己的播客，并且通过它学到了很多东西。那么你以后会参与其中吗？会的。那么你是在哪里遇见你妻子的呢？在夜总会。在夜总会。是的，但我们是通过一些朋友介绍认识的。有趣的是，这不是普通的搭讪，它是经过安排的。第一次我邀请她时，她拒绝了。这就是为什么我从不接受‘不’作为答案。但你没有说‘我是管理那么大的基金的’，没有，没有。那时候远远不是。我知道，但你没有说点什么。我当时很穷。你当时不富有。哦，我没有钱，只有很多债务。我说，没关系。 那么今天，如果你要给某个正在看这个节目的人关于如何成为一个优秀的投资经理的建议，你会给什么最重要的投资建议呢？学习，学习，学习。坚持和灵活的结合。你必须坚持自己的信念，对自己的行为充满信心，并且能有逆向思维；但当情况发生变化时，你必须改变想法。这是投资管理中最稀有的结合。那么你觉得谦逊比自大更好，对吗？你需要自信的谦逊，这是关键。 你见过沃伦·巴菲特吗？没有。真的？也没兴趣见？寻求过他的建议吗？没有，但他没有向我寻求过建议或者别的类似的事情。哦，我只是短暂地见过他。那么有没有一个可以作为你投资领域中的榜样的人物，如果不是沃伦·巴菲特的话？或许他是，尽管你未曾见过面。有没有哪位是你认为的榜样？ 我觉得如果你是一个慈善家，很难不提到比尔·盖茨作为一个榜样，因为他赚了很多钱，然后又非常有条理和结构地进行慈善捐赠，我认为这非常令人印象深刻。哦，好的。

So, look, it's an incredible career. And I would just urge you to consider private equity as something you might do in the future. Okay? Thanks very much.

所以，你看，这是一份令人难以置信的职业。我只是希望你能考虑将来从事私募股权投资，好吗？非常感谢。