Christophe Fouquet - CEO of ASML | Podcast | In Good Company | Norges Bank Investment Management

Hi everyone, I'm Nicola Tangyan, the CEO of the Norwegian Song of Wealth Fund. And today we are honored to welcome Christoph Fokke, the CEO of ASML. Now ASML is the most important company many of you have never heard about. It produces the equipment that actually makes the computer chips and it's basically the progress here which drives and decides the speed of the progress in health, electrical vehicles, communication, weapons, pretty much everything we do. So I consider Christoph one of the most important people in the world and just now. One welcome.

大家好，我是尼古拉·唐岩，挪威财富之歌基金的首席执行官。今天我们很荣幸欢迎ASML的首席执行官克里斯托夫·福克。可能很多人对ASML不熟悉，但它是最重要的公司之一。ASML生产制造电脑芯片的设备，基本上推动和决定了在医疗、电动车、通信、武器等几乎各个领域的进步速度。因此，我认为克里斯托夫是当今世界上最重要的人之一。热烈欢迎！

Thank you very much, Nicola. It's a very great pleasure to be with you today and very much looking forward to a great discussion about this great industry. And we are very proud shareholders as well. We own 2.6% of the company equivalent to $7 billion, so it's very important for us. Now Christoph, if we kick off air, what do you actually produce? Well, what we produce in ASML are lithography system. Lithography system basically is a very important system in the entire semiconductor process because this is a system that is going to print the image of the electronic circuit you want to get on a chip. So if you want printing whatever our customer wants to realize.

谢谢你，Nicola。今天能和你在一起真是非常高兴，我们非常期待就这个伟大的行业进行深入讨论。我们也非常自豪成为公司的股东。我们持有公司2.6%的股份，相当于70亿美元，所以对我们来说非常重要。那么，Christoph，如果我们开始谈谈的话，你们究竟生产什么呢？我们在ASML生产的是光刻系统。光刻系统在整个半导体生产过程中是非常重要的，因为这个系统是用来将你希望在芯片上实现的电子电路图像进行打印的。简单来说，就是帮助客户实现他们想要的产品。

So this is what we have been doing for the last 40 years, pretty much. Now you are the only EUV, lithography printer in the world. Now in one minute, what is EUV? So EUV refers to the light, the type of light we are using basically on those lithography machine. EUV means extraotivolite and this is a very, very short wavelength. We are talking about 13.5 nanometers. So you look at a very, very small wavelength. And in lithography, the smaller the wavelengths, the smaller the feature you can print. So EUV is the light.

所以这几乎就是我们过去40年来一直在做的事情。现在你是世界上唯一的EUV光刻机。接下来在一分钟内，我来解释一下什么是EUV。EUV指的是我们在这些光刻机上使用的光的一种类型。EUV代表极紫外光，这是一种非常非常短的波长。我们讲的是13.5纳米的波长。波长越小，在光刻中你能打印出的特征也就越小。所以，EUV就是这种光。

And the reason why a lot of people talk about EUV is because being able to create that light in sufficient amount to industrialize a tool with it has been a challenge of many, many years. Why is it so difficult? What part of it is difficult? Well, two parts are difficult. The first one is the light generation, what we call the source. You could see that if you want as the light bulb, if you have in your house, that creates basically the energy you need to expose basically an offer. And creating EUV light in the eye of power has been a very, very big headache for many people and for many, many years. And in SML, we spent more than 20 years achieving basically 200 watt, which was, we thought, the first threshold to make EUV economically viable.

很多人谈论EUV技术的原因在于，要实现足够量的EUV光，以便将其工业化用于制造工具，这一直是多年来的挑战。为什么这么困难呢？困难在哪些方面呢？实际上有两个方面的困难。第一个是光的产生，我们称之为光源。可以把它想象成你家里的电灯泡，它基本上产生你所需的能量，以便进行曝光。要在高功率情况下产生EUV光，对于很多人来说，很多年来一直是一个非常大的难题。在ASML公司，我们花了超过20年的时间，达到了200瓦的标准，我们认为这是使EUV技术具备经济可行性的第一个门槛。

Now, I'll tell you how we do that because it will also explain a bit the complexity. So in order to create EUV light today on the EUV machine, we have to hit a tin droplet. So it's a very, very small droplet of material with a very high powerful CO2 laser. And when we hit that droplet basically with a very high powerful laser, electrons start to go from one place to the other. And as they do so, you have the EUV light creation. Now, to give you an idea, we hit a droplet 50,000 times per second. And to be honest, I was simply if I say a bit, we don't hit the droplet once. We hit it three times, 50,000 times per seconds. The first time to make the droplet bigger, the second time to make it look a bit like a gas and the third one to really get the EUV light out. And of course, being able to create that technology, to be able to control that technology, is a major major challenge. That's what ASML spent about 20 years of R&D doing a few years ago.

现在，我来告诉你我们是如何做到这一点的，因为这也可以解释其复杂性。如今，为了在EUV机器上产生EUV光，我们需要用一种非常强大的二氧化碳激光去击打锡滴。这个锡滴非常非常小。当我们用这个高功率激光击打锡滴时，电子会开始从一个地方移动到另一个地方。就在这个过程中，EUV光被产生了。为了让你有个概念，我们每秒要击打这小小的锡滴5万次。事实上，我们不只是击打一次，而是每秒击打三次，共5万次。第一次击打是为了让锡滴变大，第二次是让它看起来有点像气体，第三次则是为了真正产生EUV光。当然，能够创造并控制这种技术是一个巨大的挑战。ASML大约在几年前花费了20年的研发时间来攻克这些技术。

And you are pretty much the only company which does this in the world? Well, yes, we are the only company who can do it, I will say, in a way that can be industrialized. You have a lot of, of course, research center that can create EUV light, but not in this amount and not, I will say, so systematically. I read somewhere that your latest machine is the size, I mean, it's not exactly pocket size, it's the size of a double deck of bus. That's right, that's right.

你们算是全球唯一能做到这一点的公司吗？嗯，是的，我们是唯一可以以工业化方式做到这一点的公司。当然，有很多研究中心可以制造EUV光，但没有我们能做到这种数量和系统性的。我看到有报道说你们最新的机器大小相当于一辆双层巴士，不是口袋大小。没错，就是这样的。

And I saw somewhere that to transport these one machine, you needed seven planes and 50 trucks. Yeah, it's all correct. And the size of the tool is related to the second because the challenge we have on UV, which is the optic itself. Because once you have the light, you need to be able to guide the light first to the reticle, to take the image you want to print on the wafer and then to the wafer to print it. And in order to do that, you need to walk in vacuum, you need to develop very complex material, I won't share what they are for obvious reason.

我在某个地方看到，为了运输这些设备，你需要七架飞机和50辆卡车。是的，这都是正确的。设备的尺寸与光刻机相关，因为我们在紫外线方面面临的挑战主要是光学部分。因为当你拥有光源时，需要能够首先将光线引导至光罩，来获取你想印在硅片上的图像，然后再将光线引导至硅片进行印刷。为了实现这一点，需要在真空中操作，并开发非常复杂的材料，具体材料因显而易见的原因我不能透露。

And that's also something that together with Zeiss, our partner this time, we also spend many, many years to bring together. So you could see UV as a double challenge, the source and the optic and the rest, you know, you could say is pretty much looking like a normal scanner. So you basically need this to make the chip smaller and smaller and which kind of brings us to more slow. What just briefly, could you explain more slow? Well, I think you have many, many version of more slow. If you listen to people, and that's one of the reasons some people tell you more slow is dead or has died already many years ago. The version of more slow I like is the one that said that you have to double the density of transistor on a chip every two years. And that's a load that have been executed and is still being executed. It's something that logic customers are doing, company like Intel, TSMC, Samsung. It's also a load that DRAM customers are following. And that need to double the transistor density every two years is key basically to deliver performance, to deliver to the AI, for example. We have AI today because we have gone far enough on more slow so that we have enough basically computing power to start to train the type of model AI is looking at. And how much longer can this development continue to think?

这次我们与蔡司合作伙伴花费了多年时间才共同完成这个项目。你可以将紫外光刻视作一个双重挑战，包括光源和光学系统，而其余部分基本上就像普通的扫描仪。所以我们需要这些技术来让芯片变得越来越小，而这也引出了摩尔定律的话题。能简单介绍一下摩尔定律吗？我认为关于摩尔定律有很多不同的版本。如果你听人们讨论，这是为什么有人说摩尔定律已结束或早在多年前就失效的原因之一。我个人喜欢的版本是，每两年芯片上的晶体管密度要增加一倍。这是一种被持续执行的准则，像英特尔、台积电、三星这样的公司都在致力于此。连DRAM的制造商们也在遵循这个准则。每两年晶体管密度翻倍的需求基本上是为了提供性能支持，比如人工智能的发展。今天的AI能够实现，是因为我们在摩尔定律的基础上走得足够远，拥有足够的计算能力来训练AI所需的模型。你认为这种发展还能持续多久呢？

So here if you look at in fact that low recently this has in fact accelerated because AI has demanded even more. So if you look at AI, people who do AI, they don't want to double the density of transistor every two years, right now they want to multiply it by a factor of 16 every two years. So this is a type of new low you're looking at when it comes to computing performance, high computing performance for AI. So you see in fact in this case a strong acceleration of the performance need and demand. So you could say it's getting of course maybe harder over time to get this density. But so far people have been creative enough to keep going and I think we continue to see that.

所以，如果你看看最近的情况，实际上这一趋势已经加速了，因为人工智能对计算性能的需求更大。如果你了解人工智能，做人工智能的人不再是想每两年将晶体管密度翻倍，而是想每两年将其增加16倍。所以在计算性能特别是人工智能的高性能方面，这是你正在看到的一种新标准。你可以看到，性能需求和需求的确显著加速。这意味着随着时间的推移，要实现这种密度当然可能越来越难。但到目前为止，人们一直足够有创造力来继续推进这一进程，我相信我们会继续看到这种趋势。

So the question when does it stop? I could say never if I'm a bit less bullish I will say won't stop at least for another 20 years and we'll see after that. But I think this is still a long term enough view. So I think we believe that the level of creativity in this industry far beyond just the XML by the way is such that we would keep going for quite a long time. I'm sorry just to get that straight. You think you can increase complexity by 60 in times every two years for the next 20 years? Well this is what our AI people want, right? This is what the AI company wants. Now the problem with that today is that if we were to go on this pass cost is an issue and as you know of course energy consumption is an issue. So that demand has to be I would say fulfilled through major innovation in our industry. Major innovation in logic, you know again Intel, TSMC Long Samsung in memory. So you hear a lot about high bandwidth memory today. But also major innovation in our domain in lithography to continue to basically enable our customer to get that type of density.

那么问题是，它什么时候会停止呢？如果乐观一点，我会说永远不会停止；如果稍微保守些，我会说至少在未来20年内不会停止，然后我们再看。但我认为，这已经是一个足够长远的观点。我认为，我们相信这个行业的创造力水平，远远超出了例如XML这样的简单技术，使得我们能在相当长的时间内持续发展。抱歉，我要确认一下，您认为在未来20年里，每两年可以使复杂性增加60倍吗？嗯，这是我们的AI研究团队想实现的目标，这也是AI公司所希望的。现在的问题是，如果我们走这条路，成本会是一个问题，而且如您所知，能源消耗也是一个问题。所以，我可以说，这种需求必须通过我们行业内的重大创新来满足。在逻辑方面需要有重大创新，比如英特尔、台积电、三星在存储领域的创新。您今天经常听到的高带宽存储就是一例。同样在光刻领域也需要有重大创新，以持续支持我们的顾客获得这种密度的技术。

This is why you talked about our latest equipment before but this is why we continue basically to innovate and bring basically the ability to get more and more transistor per unit area with better lithography machine. How far into the future can you see? Well usually we have a good view of the next five years. I think I would say the five years coming I would call it the plan. I think we have a pretty good idea of what could happen in the next 10 years, maybe 15 years but then you start to look at scenarios. So you know there's many options to get there and after that it's a bit more theoretical. But I would say when it comes to the next five to 15 years there's quite some confidence that you know the continuation of Moore's law, the continuation of this industry is pretty strong. It's a lot of challenges of course but that's always been true. When we talk about two nanometer chips how small is it two nanometer chip? You put it into perspective.

这就是为什么你之前谈到我们最新设备的原因，也是我们继续创新的原因，基本上就是为了通过更好的光刻机提高每单位面积的晶体管数量。我们能看到多远的未来呢？通常我们对未来五年有一个很好的预见。我会把接下来的五年称为“计划期”，我们对未来10到15年可能发生的事情也有比较清晰的了解，但那时我们更多是在看不同的情景了，有很多种方式可以达到那时的目标，再往后就有点理论化了。不过我会说，在未来5到15年内，我们对继续遵循摩尔定律以及产业发展的信心还是很足的。尽管会有很多挑战，但这在过去的行业发展中也是一直存在的。当我们讨论两纳米芯片时，它到底有多小呢？你可以这样来看待它。

The chip itself is not too small right? The chip itself is still a few millimeter by a few millimeter which is really really small is the size of the transistor right? Two nanometer is basically about 200 times the size of a silicon atom right? So you start basically to look at dimension that comes close to atomic dimension. So this is extremely small and it means that the way the transistor are going to work is such that people start to count electrons as well. So we are getting as close as you can imagine to the limit of physics or at least the limit of physics as we will learn them at school and this is what makes this moment in this industry so exciting because this requires of course new innovation.

芯片本身并不算太小，对吧？芯片的尺寸仍然是几毫米乘几毫米，这已经非常非常小了。而晶体管的尺寸就小到两纳米，这基本上是硅原子大小的200倍左右。因此，我们开始接近原子级别的尺寸。这就意味着晶体管的工作方式变得如此精细，以至于人们开始计算电子的数量。我们正变得无限接近物理学的极限，或者至少是我们在学校里学习到的物理学的极限。这就是为什么此刻在这个行业如此令人兴奋，因为这当然需要新的创新。

Now you spent I believe six billion dollars to develop this or a very long time frame. More than 15 years just how do you cultivate that type of long term mindset? So we spend a minute more than that but you know what is defining I think is in many ways and if you ask me this is maybe what makes is a unique. We do things because we believe this is the right things to do and when we look at UV you know if you go back 20 years ago we looked at different options that could be useful for lithography. We had UV we had EBM we had what people call still today nano imprints which consist in getting the critical in contact to the weather and each one of those options were very very difficult and we picked UV not because it was the easiest one in fact UV was less advanced most probably than EBM or basically nano imprints but we picked UV because we thought that this was the only technology that over time could scale to the point where we could provide the resolution but also the productivity meaning that we could also provide this at the right cost and that's how it started and we were convinced that the industry needed which I think has been proven since then I mean everyone is aware of you know the story of TSMC going to 7,500 meter with UV Intel not doing that and you know what was the results of that so we were convinced that the industry will need it and then we invested in that to the level we could afford it which if you look back you know 20, 25 years ago SML was not a very rich company in fact we went as far as asking our customer to co-invest with us on the program but we did it because we thought that this had to be fixed and I can tell you that that was not easy and for a long time I think there was not even a guarantee that this would work but there was we thought most probably a 80% change that this would work because we still understood the physics we still understood the fundamentals and this is the reason why we went there and that could sound strange to a lot of people because you know people could ask well did you have at least a good business plan and the answer at that time was no I mean we couldn't find a way to make the business plan look even reasonable right because the challenge was such but there was this belief that if we get it done and if this allowed the industry to move forward this would be good for the industry this would be of course good for us as a resource and I think we truly believe in SML that as long as we are contributing to extend this industry by one more node so as long as we extend basically more slow then we generate a lot of value for everyone.

这段话大意是这样：我们花费了60亿美元和超过15年的时间来开发这项技术，那么我们是如何培养这样一种长远的思维方式的呢？实际上，我们花了比这更长的时间，但重要的是我们相信这是正确的选择。20年前，我们考察了用于光刻的多种选项，包括UV、EBM和纳米压印等。每种方案都非常困难。我们选择了UV，不是因为它最简单，实际上可能UV比EBM或纳米压印的发展程度更低。但我们选择UV是因为我们认为这种技术能在未来实现既高分辨率又具成本效益的生产。我们相信行业需要这种技术，事实也证明了这一点，比如大家都知道台积电使用UV技术取得了成功，而英特尔没有采取这样的策略。这让我们更加坚定地认为行业需要UV技术，于是我们尽我们经济能力范围内投资，并甚至请客户与我们共同投资。尽管这项技术的成功并无保证，但我们觉得仍有80%的几率会成功，因为我们理解其物理和基本原理。虽然当时没有完善的商业计划，但我们相信，这种技术能推动整个行业进步，对行业对我们自身都有益。在ASML，我们始终相信只要我们能推动行业进入下一个技术节点，那就能为所有人创造价值。

I mean the value chain here in this industry is really fascinating so you talked about getting financing from your customers they also took ownership stakes in you. Yeah at some point they did. How important has that been for the corporation? This was important for tourism the first one maybe the most important part it was showing also the commitment they had on the technology so I think it was very important for us to have this alignment with the key players to know that UV was important for them and I think that their co-investment was the proof of that and you know again at the time where the ability for SML to invest in R&D was for sure less than it is today this also gave us enough fun practically to to accelerate the development of UV so I think this co-investment of the program most probably accelerated the whole UV program by let's say maybe 3-5 years which you know is significant and again we had partner you know we had people that days after days night after night we were working with us we are together on the same trip to get UV to work and that's very important because if you are going to do something that difficult you feel better if you are not alone right? Absolutely, talking of which you also work very closely with Size on the optics tell us about that relationship so this is a German optics company.

在这个行业中，价值链确实非常吸引人。您提到过从客户那里获得融资，他们还持有了公司的股份。是的，他们确实在某个时候这么做了。这样的合作对公司有多重要呢？对于我们来说，这对旅游业是非常重要的，可能是最重要的一部分，因为这展示了他们对这项技术的投入和承诺。因此，与关键参与者保持一致对我们来说非常重要，因为这表明UV（紫外线技术）对他们来说很重要，而他们的联合投资也是其证明之一。那个时候，SML在研发方面的投资能力当然不如现在，所以这种联合投资实际上为我们提供了足够的资金来加速UV技术的发展。我认为，这一计划的联合投资可能将整个UV计划加速了3到5年，这是一个重大的进展。而且，我们有合作伙伴，我们有日以继夜与我们一起工作的团队，大家在同一条路上，为了让UV技术成功而共同努力。因为当你要做一些困难的事情时，如果不是单打独斗心里会更有底，对吧？绝对如此。说到合作，您还与一家德国光学公司——蔡司（Size）紧密合作，请谈谈这种关系。

Well so you know when Size and SML talk about the relationship we said this relationship is worse than a marriage because we can never get divorced right we have created a level of inter inter dependency between the two company which is extremely high and the reason for that is we made the choice from the very beginning to focus on what we are good at and Size is extremely good on optic they have become excellent over time of course they have gone also through their learning for more than 30 years and they are learning as allowed them to be able to do something like UV or even INA today while in parallel we were doing the same learning basically on everything else that lithography has to provide.

好，让我来用中文表达这个意思： “你知道，当我们谈到Size和SML之间的关系时，我们说这个关系比婚姻还复杂，因为我们永远无法分开。我们在两家公司之间创造了极高的相互依赖性，这是因为我们一开始就选择专注于各自擅长的领域。Size在光学方面非常出色，经过超过30年的学习，他们逐渐精通了这方面的技术，这让他们如今能够实现诸如UV或INA等技术。而同时，我们也在学习光刻技术的其他所有方面。”

Why don't you merge? Well because I think you know you need to want it and I think this has never been the case and there you know you touch to culture you touch to history you touch to business model and what we have learned over time is that even if you don't merge you can develop model that I will say can become almost even maybe more effective than if you were to merge because in the way we work everyone does its own things with its own culture its own mind and I think this has been a strange to be honest over time it's very good to have a partner that is also different from you and that therefore not only is able to work with you but is always able to challenge also the way you do things and I think that's that's part of the great relationship with we have with I's.

为什么不合并呢？因为我认为你需要真正渴望合并，而这种情况从未发生过。你会接触到文化、历史和商业模式，随着时间的推移，我们学到了即使不合并也可以发展出几乎甚至比合并更有效的模式。因为在我们的合作方式中，每个人都按照自己的文化和思维方式做事情。说实话，这是一种奇妙的力量。而且，有一个与自己不同的合作伙伴非常好，他们不仅能与你合作，还能挑战你的工作方式。我认为这正是我们与I公司之间良好关系的一部分。

Where do you see AI developing over the next few years? I mean we're seeing you know XAI putting like 100,000 GPUs to form colossus just an incredible development just now. Yeah so I think it's a very very important question for this industry and if I start with the end I'm a true believer of AI of what AI can do basically for or say for humanity and the reason for that is if I look at what we have been doing in SML we see many many places where AI can help. The most important part I think is R&D at the end I think the strongest potential value of AI is to be able to accelerate our learning cycle so in some way accelerate R&D and improve our product and all of that can be done because in the past few years the amount of data we have been generating to develop our product but also the amount of data we generate once our product are running at our customers enormous so there's a huge untapped potential of making good use of this data and AI can do that but now what we also see is that to trust AI to do that the models that are needed have to be even better than what we see today so the number of parameters that model will have to use is going to grow very quickly most probably also exponentially so there's another low also there with AI and that requires even more high computing power so we will first see a huge demand of high computing power with more advanced technology so three nanometer two nanometer and we'll go to angstrom type of node all of that I think we will find a lot of appetite from AI people to use it so that's the first part and this will I will say create huge opportunity the second part is how are those supporting going to to play a rollout in the next few years and I think that's the most difficult question so we a lot of us I think are very convinced about the huge potential AI has to offer I think none of us know exactly at which speed this will come basically to the market if I may say because at some point of time AI has to be more than just you know an activity around a research and development this has to be translated into product who is going to be the winner here well I think at the end of the day you know I always believe that when it comes to model software you will have a lot of people who can do that I believe that the way you will design your hardware the way you will architect basically the chips is very very important this is why company like NVIDIA MD you know a few more most probably moving forward we'll really fight for that because I think that product enabled whatever algorithm people may think on top of that and of course those products can only exist if you know company like TSMC entails some some provide the technology to create a chip and those companies can only do that if they continue to use our lithography tools yeah so you will have I think quite some winners and you cannot pick one because if you were to take out any of those name everyone lose right that's the beauty also of this ecosystem we need each other right the talking with the superscalers on our designing the round chips how good are these chips I think they are very good and I think they will get better over time I think today the chips that are being used both for memory or logic we are not even necessarily designed for AI I think people have just taken the best chips available at the moment which is GPUs and high bandwidth memory for example but I think both in logic and in memory we will see major design change to optimize chips further for AI I think this this is most probably happening as we speak I think that those chips are pretty good but I think there is still major improvement possible and you know this will also have an impact on the type of chips our own customer with manufacturers so I think that's one of the very interesting things with AI AI is changing the industry you know it's not that you only see new product you see those product becoming the most important one for the industry so for a long time this was mobile today it's AI and it means that the roadmap of a lot of people including our roadmap will shift basically with the idea that we want to serve this new opportunity but I think those chips are good but they will be a lot better in a few years from that when I prepared for for this podcast I I conferred with Chris Miller who wrote the book the chip wars and who is one of the leading experts in the world and and he was just wondering given how much of the development and R&D and so on in the world which now depends on getting smaller and smaller chips how do you feel about having this incredible weight on your shoulders well I think it's a huge it's a huge responsibility

在未来几年里，你认为人工智能会如何发展？我觉得，这是一个非常重要的问题。我们现在看到XAI公司使用10万块GPU来建立一个庞大的系统，确实令人惊叹。就我个人而言，我坚信人工智能对人类的潜在益处，原因是我们在SML（你的机构或公司）所做的工作中，看到了许多领域人工智能能发挥作用。最重要的是研发，我认为人工智能最强大的潜力在于加速我们的学习周期，从而提高研发效率，改进产品。近年来，我们产生的数据量巨大，这不仅包括我们在开发产品时产生的数据，还包括我们的产品在客户那里运行时产生的数据，这些数据具有巨大的潜力，尚未被充分利用，而人工智能可以帮助我们做到这一点。 不过，要信任人工智能完成这些任务，模型必须比现在更好，需要更多的参数，计算能力需求将急剧增长。我们将首先看到对于更高计算能力的巨大需求，伴随着更先进的技术，比如3纳米、2纳米甚至更小的节点，对这些技术的需求将会很大。这会带来巨大的机会。而对于下一步的发展方向，我认为这是一个非常难回答的问题。我们大多数人都相信人工智能具有巨大的潜力，但还不清楚它到底会以怎样的速度进入市场。因为人工智能最终必须从研发活动扩展到实际产品上。谁将成为赢家？我认为在软件模型开发方面，很多人都能做到，而硬件设计和芯片架构就非常重要。这也是像NVIDIA、AMD这样的公司奋战的地方，因为不论有什么样的算法，最终都依赖于我们的这些产品。当然，这些产品的存在也需要像台积电、英特尔这样的公司提供生产芯片的技术，而这些公司之所以能做到这一点，是因为它们持续使用我们（假设为SML）的光刻工具。因此，在这个生态系统中，大家互相依赖，缺一不可，这也是其魅力所在。 关于超级计算器和芯片设计的问题，这些芯片性能良好并会不断提升。当前用于存储或逻辑的芯片并非专门为人工智能设计，而是选择了现有最佳芯片，如GPU和高带宽存储。逻辑和存储芯片的设计将会有重大变化，以进一步优化人工智能。这一变化可能正在发生。此外，这也会影响我们的客户所制造芯片的类型。人工智能正在改变行业，不仅推出新产品，而且这些产品还在逐渐成为行业的重点产品。曾经很长时间是移动设备，而现在是人工智能，这意味着包括我们的计划在内很多人的发展路线都在朝这个新机会调整。 我为这个播客做准备时，也请教了写《芯片战争》一书的专家克里斯·米勒。他关心的是，随着全球研发越来越依赖更小的芯片，你对于肩上的责任有什么感想？我认为这是一项重大责任。

当然，请提供您希望翻译的具体文本，我会尽量为您翻译成易读的中文。

I think that's the first feeling you get because well you know you said it in your introduction we used to be this this company no one knows about I think this has changed quite a bit I think we are today a company that a lot of people rely on basically in order to be able to to to create their product and I think that's that's a huge responsibility and this means for us that more than ever we have to continue to develop our products so that you know we never become the bottleneck to this industry we need to make sure we can produce them in enough capacity whatever the capacity will be needed so that anyone can play so you know we serve the market in this in a very fair way and you know this of course create a lot of of pride for every ISML employee you know

我认为这可能是你得到的第一个感觉，因为正如你在介绍中所说，过去我们是一家没有人知道的公司，但现在这种情况发生了很大变化。我认为我们如今是一家很多人依赖的公司，大家基本上都需要我们来创造他们的产品。我觉得这是一项巨大的责任，这意味着我们比以往任何时候都更需要继续开发产品，以确保我们不会成为这个行业的瓶颈。我们需要确保我们的生产能力足够满足任何需求，以便任何人都可以参与其中，这样我们才能以非常公平的方式为市场服务。当然，这也让每个ISML员工都感到非常自豪。

I think the if you're an engineer then you tell an engineer that what you do nowadays is is at the core most probably of any major innovation moving forward I think it's a it's a lot of pride as well so you have responsibility you have pride and I think this also put us in a place where I think we understand we we have to play our whole so I think this this have changed a bit I will say that the way ISML has been looking at the world and I think you have seen our involvement as a resource a lot more strong a lot more a lot stronger than it used to be

如果你是一名工程师，你会告诉其他工程师，你所做的工作很可能处于任何重大创新的核心位置。对此我们应该感到自豪，同时也肩负责任。这种感觉也让我们意识到我们需要尽全力去发挥作用。我认为这样也改变了我们对世界的看法。就像你所看到的，我们在资源方面的参与比过去更强更积极。

changing tax a bit the geopolitical tensions that we have now between the US and China what are the implications for you well I think there are many many implications because you know we went to from a world where we were looking at a you know very very open collaborative world right I think the idea a few years ago was that you know we are going to do business everywhere everyone can work with everyone and this has supported I will say the development of our industry quite significantly because every part became important and we go from that view of the world to a view of the world where people more and more are looking at potentially decoupling sex and this change of course everything because the way this industry was designed the way this industry has developed was based on the previous world it was based on a completely open market it was based on the idea that you can basically use the revenue of more advanced products sorry the revenue of less advanced product that you have developed a few years before to fund the development of more advanced one so you had this balance which which I think is a bit being put in question so this requires quite some some adjustment and I think we see two main risks on that the the main one is cost you know because if you get less revenue you have less ability to do R&D except if your cost increase if you are limited in geographic area to produce things cost could also goes up I think we are all very much aware that for example that when it comes to build to manufacture of chips the US Europe are a lot more expensive than Asia that's also most of this slow down a bit the innovation because again we used to have this very open ecosystem and this this may be also a question so this makes things of course a bit more difficult or potentially a lot more difficult depending on how far you push basically the decoupling model so it's very fundamental yeah no absolutely how far behind is China here now well I think I think I've said that a few things a few times publicly I think and a few people have said that so China doesn't have access to UV and UV is critical for advanced logic I think this has been demonstrated in the western world I go back again to the TSMC Intel story you know UV was introduced for R&D around 2016-17 started to go to production around 2018 and this means that China is at least I would say 10 years behind and most probably a bit more because as we were looking back in 2016-17 they were already you know a couple of generation behind so you know 10-15 years is most probably if you look at logic where we understand and it's very very difficult to do advanced logic without UV you you can of course make a few chips over time if you transistor but you cannot do it in volume you cannot do it at a cost that is reasonable so you cannot do it in a way that is economically viable

当前我们面临的美中地缘政治紧张局势对你有什么影响呢？我认为影响巨大。过去，我们的世界相对开放、合作，大家都认为可以在全球做生意，所有人都可以相互合作。这种理念极大地促进了我们行业的发展，因为每个部分都变得重要。但现在，我们正从这种世界观走向一个分离的趋势，这改变了一切。这个行业的设计和发展是基于完全开放的市场，基于可以利用先前不太先进产品的收入来支持更先进产品的发展。这种平衡现在被打破，需要做出调整。我认为这有两个主要风险，首先是成本。如果收入减少，研发能力就会受到限制，除非你的成本增加。如果你在地理上被限制生产，那么成本可能会上升。大家普遍知道，比如说芯片制造，在美国和欧洲要比在亚洲昂贵得多。这种变化可能会减缓创新，因为我们曾有一个非常开放的生态系统，现在这成为一个问题。这样一来，事情变得更加困难。至于中国的情况，我认为中国目前在某些技术上明显落后。我多次提到过关键技术UV（极紫外光刻）的访问问题。UV对于先进逻辑芯片制造至关重要，在西方已经显现出其重要性。回顾TSMC和英特尔的案例，UV大概在2016-17年引入研发，2018年投入生产。这意味着中国至少滞后十年，甚至更多，因为早在2016-17年，他们就已经落后几代技术。所以，如果你考虑逻辑芯片的话，现在可能是落后10-15年。要在没有UV的情况下生产先进逻辑芯片是非常困难的。虽然可以制造一些芯片，但无法实现大规模生产，成本也不合理，经济上不可行。

Taiwan is in the middle of this whole value chain what how risky is that well I think that you know it's it's a very difficult question I I you know I I don't know to be honest because you you can speculate on that you can only have an opinion there's always a risk of course to to have the supply chain concentrated in in one place I think no one can argue with that but then I will say we present a similar risk for for the market in this sense you know guessing what's going to happen on geopolitics is difficult because anything happening with Taiwan will have major implication for for the entire world clearly so I'm not I'm not one of the people who who are very much looking at very bad you know you're to Taiwan I think those are very unlikely but I think again that's that's more of a personal opinion than anything else I'm sure you have your own but I think what is for sure certain is that the tension could could raise over time and how fast do you think what can ramp up chip manufacturing in US Japan South Korea well I think the the manufacturing part is one thing the irony part is another thing I think when you look at chips you need to have R&D first you know if you don't have R&D meaning if you don't have somewhere someone that provides you the next generation of chips it's a matter of time even if you have manufacturing that you manufacture things that are not very relevant so I think the access to R&D is is very very important and I truly believe that when it comes to advanced chips you only can do those things if you have the history it's a bit like the story I gave you about SMN and Zeiss I think we can do UV today because we have done everything before we believe it's very hard for anyone to start from scratch and do UV I think it's the same for chips I think the idea that someone could just create an R&D center and be able to do you know a two nanometer or one point for nanometer I think is from my point of view extremely difficult if not impossible and that's you know that's where you see those cooperation even for example Japan of course is is looking at doing two nanometer logic but this is using technology from IBM right so you cannot just come out of the blue on those kind of things so if you don't have it I think it takes a very very long time

台湾处于整个价值链的中心地带，这有多大的风险呢？我认为这是一个非常困难的问题，说实话，我不知道具体答案，因为这只能是推测，只能有一个观点。显然，将供应链集中在一个地方总是有风险的，这是毋庸置疑的。但我想说的是，这也给市场带来了类似的风险。预测地缘政治的发展是困难的，因为任何与台湾相关的事件都会对全世界产生重大影响。我不是那种非常悲观地看待台湾的人，我认为那种情况非常不太可能。但这更多地只是我的个人看法，相信你也有自己的观点。可以肯定的是，紧张局势可能会随着时间的推移而加剧。而关于美国、日本、韩国如何加速芯片制造的问题，我认为制造是一个方面，创新又是另一个方面。在芯片领域，你首先需要研发。即使有制造能力，但如果没有研发，也只是时间问题，把时间花在生产那些不太相关的东西上。因此，获得研发的途径是非常重要的。我真正相信，在先进芯片方面，只有拥有历史积累才能做到这一点。这有点类似于我提到的SMN和蔡司的历史故事。我们今天能做紫外线技术是因为我们之前做了一切工作。我认为从头开始做紫外线技术是非常困难的，芯片领域也是如此。认为一个人可以简单地创建一个研发中心并开发出两纳米或1.4纳米的芯片，这是极为困难甚至是不可能的。这就是为什么我们看到各种合作，比如日本希望制造两纳米逻辑芯片，但这使用的是IBM的技术。因此，这些事情并不是平白无故而来的。如果没有这些技术积累，我认为会需要很长的时间。

But yet the you have chip back in in various countries you have it in the US you got similar things in Japan UK you just really huge amounts of money so how do you view this well it's huge but you know the problem is it all depends on the scale you're looking at and I think chip acts for my point of view are are good to motivate people to restart the engine or to do some initial investment but I know I said it a few times already in in discussion cost is very important for this industry you need to get it right and the problem with chip act is that they don't solve that chip tax can help you to to put a factory to buy some tool to get going for one node but what's very important that's discussion we have with many government is to also make sure that you create a condition where you can compete on cost and on flexibility because you know subsidies are usually something that do not last forever and if over time you don't solve structurally competitive disadvantage you may have on cost or flexibility the fact that you know you boost for a while the R&D or the construction of new fab is in no way a guarantee of success for the future so I think that's the part I think that is very important to understand this industry is very competitive very sensitive to cost

翻译：尽管在许多国家都有芯片法案，比如美国、日本和英国，投入了巨额资金，那么你如何看待这个问题呢？我认为芯片法案在某种程度上是好的，因为它们可以激励人们重新启动引擎或进行初期投资。但正如我多次在讨论中提到的，成本对于这个行业来说非常重要，你必须把它搞对。芯片法案的问题在于它们并没有解决成本问题。芯片法案可以帮助你建立工厂、购买设备，为某个节点起步，但非常重要的一点是，我们和许多政府讨论的是，你还需要创造一个具备成本竞争力和灵活性的环境。因为补贴通常不会永远持续，如果长期来看你没有解决在成本或灵活性上的结构性劣势，仅仅在研发或新工厂建设上有暂时的推动，未来的成功就没有保障。所以我认为这一点非常重要，理解这个行业是非常有竞争力且对成本非常敏感的。

chip tax as it have helped to recreate a bit some activity and some interest and give a chance again for some country to restart in semiconductor but all those countries will have to make sure that they become competitive and I think that's that's a very that's most of the more difficult part of the 50 largest technology companies in the world only four are in Europe so and naive question here why why is that well I think you know it's it's a very tough question in Europe and you know if you knew the amount of time we we spent having this exact same same same discussion but you know I already touched on some of that you know I talked about flexibility I talked about cost this is very important I think access to capital is also very very critical you you need to be able to invest I think today access to capital is a lot stronger in the US than it is in Europe I think you know that very well right but a lot even of the capital usually being used to invest in Europe come from from the US so that's something people underestimate that's very important access to resources to you know electricity power

为了重振一些国家在半导体领域的活动和兴趣，"芯片税"发挥了些许作用，并再次给某些国家提供了重启机会。但所有这些国家都必须确保自己具备竞争力，我认为这是其中最困难的部分。在全球最大的50家科技公司中，只有4家位于欧洲。那么为什么会这样呢？我觉得这是一个在欧洲非常棘手的问题，如果你知道我们花了多少时间在进行同样的讨论就会明白。我提到过灵活性和成本，这些因素非常重要。我认为资本的获取也至关重要，你必须有能力进行投资。我认为目前美国对资本的获取比欧洲要强得多，这一点你应该很清楚。实际上，很多用于欧洲投资的资本也往往来自美国，人们通常低估了这一点，这一点非常重要。此外，还有获取电力等资源的问题。

the price of the power all of that are very very important things and you see a lot of those debate happening today in Europe this other discussion we're having of course with with our government you know we we made a decision to extend ourselves you know in the Netherlands because that makes sense for us but we only can do that if we have the infrastructure if we have the energy if we have all those things so the reason why you have less company in Europe than maybe other place of the world is because those things today are just more difficult and you know Mario Draghi just published a report in Europe which I think described that very very nicely and now what's important is to have the political will to reinvest in the future and basically create opportunity I think that's very very important and are we going to see this well I think it's almost you know a matter of life of death at some point because well what if you never see it yeah so what is left in a few years from now so I think you see more and more people talking about this in more and more country because I think it's a will for the people to really be able to to to have those interesting companies those interesting jobs you know I was talking about I said Mel I was telling you about the pride of our employee I mean any educated person in Europe wants to have a chance to walk in a great company it's fine to talk but it is are things happening I think they are happening I think we could easily agree they are too slow I think that the dialogue between politics and industry is most probably increasing in Europe the challenge most probably will be to make sure we bring the entire population on board because those topics are not always easy to explain and these are not the topic that maybe are the easiest for politicians to to pursue to get elected

电力的价格以及其他相关因素都是非常非常重要的事情，你可以看到很多关于这些问题的辩论正在欧洲展开。我们当然也在与我们的政府进行讨论。我们决定在荷兰扩展业务，因为这对我们来说是有意义的，但我们只能在有基础设施、能源和其他必要条件的情况下这样做。 欧洲的公司数量比世界其他地方少的原因是这些条件在当下更为困难。Mario Draghi最近在欧洲发布的一份报告对此描述得很好。现在重要的是要有重新投资未来的政治意愿，从而创造机会，我认为这非常重要。我们是否会看到这一点的实现？我认为这几乎在某种程度上是生死攸关的问题，因为如果你从未看到它，那么未来几年将会留下什么呢？ 你会发现越来越多的国家开始讨论这些问题，因为人们希望能在有趣的公司中拥有有趣的工作。我曾和你提到过我们的员工自豪感。任何受过良好教育的欧洲人都希望有机会在伟大的公司工作。讨论这些问题是好的，但事情是否在发生？我认为它们的确在发生，但进展太慢。政治和工业之间的对话在欧洲可能正在增加，挑战可能在于确保让全体民众参与其中，因为这些话题并不总是容易解释，这些也不是政客为了获得选票最容易追求的话题。

Now Velthoven is a small town of 45 000 people on the Dutch Belgian border it's not the it's not the obvious place for one of the one of the most important couples in the world to to be situated how how come you ended up there well I think we used to have a bigger brother called Phillips you know that Phillips used to be extremely successful company and Phillips created you know back 40 50 years ago a lot of basically startup and a lot of those startup became a significant company so I similarly is one of them I think you know ISM International is another one right so they we come from the same same roots in some way and Phillips also had developed this culture of innovation so you know ISM is sitting in an area that we call the the brain port and the brain port is still a very lively area in Europe when it comes to innovation I think that's still built on the whole the concept of of Phillips so that's why we are here and I think over time you know we have developed a very strong ecosystem you we talk a lot about you know ISM we talked a bit about ZEIS but our supply chain is critical of course you know we talked about the optic but mechatronics is very important and all of that is also done in Europe in Netherlands in Germany so there's a lot of critical company that are also contributing to our success of course there are a lot less known than ISM so they are still a bit obstetric most probably but they have been going with with ISM else I think the whole supply chain around you know a welderven even in welderven or eindelven which is the bigger city on the side are very critical

现在，维尔特霍芬是一个位于荷兰与比利时边界的小镇，人口约为45,000人。这个地方看起来不像是世界上最重要的几对夫妇之一会居住的地方，您怎么会选择在这里安家呢？我想，这要追溯到过去，我们曾经有一个强大的兄弟公司叫飞利浦。飞利浦是一家极其成功的公司，大约在40到50年前，它孵化了许多初创公司，其中许多后来发展成了重要的企业。ASML 就是其中之一，我认为ISM International 也是如此。我们在某种程度上有着共同的起源。 飞利浦还建立了一种创新文化，所以ASML 位于一个我们称之为“脑港”的地区，这是欧洲一个在创新领域依然非常活跃的区域。我认为这一切都建立在飞利浦的理念之上。因此，这就是我们在这里的原因。随着时间的推移，我们建立了一个非常强大的生态系统。我们谈了很多关于ASML 的事情，稍微讲了一些关于ZEISS 的内容，但我们的供应链当然也非常重要。比如我们谈论光学的同时，机电一体化也是非常关键的，这些工作都是在欧洲、在荷兰、在德国完成的。有很多不太知名但对我们成功至关重要的公司参与其中，它们可能没有ASML那么有名，但一直与我们携手共进。我认为围绕维尔特霍芬乃至更大城市埃因霍温的整个供应链都是至关重要的。

how would you describe the culture at ASML I think you know what people usually say first about ISML is that this is a non-political organization meaning that people don't do things basically in order to gain credit for themselves they do things for the good of the company and I think that's something that is very very strong and this creates both a style of management but also a style of interaction between between people so I'll give you an example our employees feel very natural to challenges on anything I'm the CEO of the company it doesn't mean that people don't argue with me no you know when we engage on any topic technical non-technical there will be a debate because there is this belief that the debate has to take place to really create and bring the best possible decision so that's a bit ASML and that culture has been very very solid for many many years of course we have been going so we we also have to make sure that this culture doesn't go against you know inclusion of the people joining us so it's sometime a bit or so rough people thought in the you know in the past this was a bit rough but the the very eye focus on doing what is right for our customer and therefore for the company I think is is that at the core of ISML and as a resource you see a very open very lively company it still feels like a family company or so you know it's pretty big nowadays of course we have 44 000 people so you could say it's pretty big but the way I know my colleagues the way I know the leadership we still feel this is not a very big team and that's very interesting so we we have kept I would say the essential of the DNA while of course finding ways to scale to to the size we have today

ASML 的文化可以这样描述：人们通常首先会提到 ASML 是一个非政治化的组织，也就是说，人们做事的出发点不是为了个人的功劳，而是为了公司的利益。这种文化不仅形成了一种管理风格，也塑造了人与人之间的互动方式。 举个例子，我们的员工在面对挑战时非常自然。我是公司的 CEO，但这并不意味着别人不会和我争论。无论是技术问题还是非技术问题，我们都会进行辩论，因为大家相信，辩论能帮助我们做出最好的决策。这就是 ASML 的一点特色，这种文化多年来一直非常稳固。 当然，随着我们不断发展，也需要确保这种文化不会排斥新的加入者。有时候，过去的人会觉得这种氛围有些粗糙，但对客户和公司负责的强烈关注仍然是 ASML 核心。这让公司显得非常开放和活跃，尽管如今我们有 44,000 名员工，规模不小，但我们仍然像个家庭公司。 我和同事及领导层的关系让我们感觉这并不是一个庞大的团队。这很有趣，我们在保持公司本质DNA的同时，也找到了成长到今天这个规模的方法。

In your mind what's the key to good leadership and berness I would say that's the first world that comes to mind. I think you you have to remain humble. I think you you have to to remember that you're serving a bigger cause. I think it's very very important you need to be authentic people have to see you for what you are. I think they should be no artificial discussion or they should be known you know attempt to try to please people or to convince people. I think you have to be very authentic you have to be direct. I think you have to work hard lead by example. I think you have to stay on content you know sometime when people gets to bigger hold they sometimes believe that everything can be solved by processes. I think processes are very important to make things happen at scale but content is essential especially in this industry you need to know basically what is happening so that you can anticipate what could happen next you need to be strategic so you have to be able basically to to dream. I think being able to dream is very very important for leaders and at the same time you have to be able to explain that dream in a very simple way very clear way so that people can translate it into things they can execute on so you see there's a lot of things and I don't know in which order I brought them to you but that's that's too let's do to them.

在你心中，良好领导力的关键是什么？我会说，“真实”是首先想到的词。我认为你需要保持谦逊。你要记住，你是在为更大的事业服务。我觉得非常重要的是，你需要做真实的自己，让人们看到你的本来面目。应该避免虚假的谈论，也不应试图去讨好或说服别人。你要保持真实，直接面对问题。我觉得你还需要努力工作，以身作则。 另外，你要专注实质内容。有时候，当人们身居高位时，他们会觉得所有问题都能通过流程解决。我认为，虽然流程在大规模运作中确实很重要，但在这个行业中，了解实质内容尤其重要。你需要掌握基本情况，以便预见可能发生的事情，并具备战略眼光。领导者需要有梦想的能力，这一点非常重要。同时，你也要能用简单清晰的方式解释你的梦想，让人们能够执行。因此，有很多要点需要兼顾，我不确定提到的顺序是否正确，但以上就是我的看法。

How do you stay on content well that's that's that's easy because I don't know how to do it differently so for me that's that's you know if I if I don't have content discussion with my engineer my operation people my sales people my customer my supplier I feel I do something wrong because I feel that I lose the connection to what is essential you know I often tell the people in SML if we if our customer trust us if we do the right product for them because we understand them because we listen to them I think the rest will be fine we have to manage the company in a very good way but we will be fine in fact we'll be more than fine but those two things customer trust having the right product that's content you you don't have that if you don't have content and therefore for me if I don't have access to this information for for a bit I will very quickly feel that I'm mostly not leading the company in the right way.

如何保持关注内容？这对我来说很简单，因为我不知道用别的方式去做。我觉得，如果我不与我的工程师、运营人员、销售人员、客户和供应商进行内容讨论，我就会觉得自己做错了，因为这样我就失去了与关键事务的联系。我常常告诉SML的团队，如果我们的客户信任我们，如果我们为他们提供合适的产品，那是因为我们理解他们，倾听他们。我认为这就够了，我们必须以好的方式管理公司，但这样我们就会没问题，实际上我们会更好。但这两个方面——客户信任和合适的产品——都是内容的体现。如果没有这些内容，我就没有这些信息，我很快就会觉得自己没有正确地引导公司。

Why is storytelling important storytelling is important because you need to be able to explain people why things are important and the only way to do that is to simplify. I could tell you UV is very complex I prefer to tell you UV is very simple you ask me to explain you UV in one minute I think that's the right question because you need to be able to explain what you do and if it takes you too many words to do that then you don't explain it ever so I think it's very important to to the story setting is very important the simplification the clarity around what you do I think is very important where did you learn it I think you learn it over time you see people doing that you also see the effect of having a simple story very versus a complicated story and I think you need to have affinity for it I think that there's part of it which is your own character I think you know you know there are things that most probably you are born with I will say and that's helpful but I think you if you pay attention to it and I invite you to leave my my and pray to do that to if you pay attention on how far you will go if you give a simple story and people understand it if you can make your case I think making your case is a very important thing I always say you you cannot convince people you you have to give them the elements so they convince themselves because it's a lot more powerful but if you practice that I think you you realize that this is powerful and and maybe over time you you get better at it but this for me is very very important. What is driving you personally I think you know if you if you are to go really deep psychologically I think a solving problem. I think you know I always say if I look at the different job I had in my career I think they have this they have a few common points solving problem is one of them so if you're an engineer you know you you have a problem you look at data and then you come to a solution I think the same is still true if you're a CEO of course the problem is a bit different you look at the problem is most really what what does this industry need in the next five years second problem is how do we make it happen third problem is how do we found it etc etc but these are still a problem you have to solve and I think you have to make the problem again simple so that you can have a solution if you think the problem is complex you will never solve it right that's the way it works so solving problem drives me I think the contact with people is is a major driver I you know I feel blessed in this industry I mean everyone you meet is is just inspiring I mean you you go have a talk a dinner or a meeting with anyone in the semiconductor industry it's just a blast because. people have a great experience they are pretty unbo I think they share this need to bring something positive and again maybe this need to solve problems together and I think the connection to people has been always a very very very motivating factor in in in my career it's still today and you know the last thing I will say is I enjoy what I do very much so I take really great pleasure in in doing what I do in SML and you know this is true today but it's been true for the last 25 years in this industry there's not been one boring day good for you so let's talk.

讲故事为什么重要？讲故事之所以重要，是因为你需要能够向人们解释为什么事情重要，而要做到这一点，最好的办法就是简化。比如，我可以告诉你紫外线（UV）非常复杂，但我更愿意说紫外线很简单。如果你让我在一分钟内解释清楚紫外线，我觉得这是一个正确的问题，因为你需要能够解释你在做什么，如果需要太多的话语来解释，那基本上就等于没解释。所以，我认为简化和清晰地传达你的信息是非常重要的。你是从哪里学会的？我认为这是一个时间积累的过程。你看别人怎么做，也看到简单的故事和复杂的故事所产生的不同效果。我认为你需要对此有一种亲和力，这可能部分源于你的性格。我认为有些能力是与生俱来的，这很有帮助。但如果你专注于这件事，你会发现一旦你将事情简单明了地讲出来，并让别人理解，你会走得更远。我常说，你不能直接说服人们，而是应该提供让他们自己说服自己的元素，这样的说服力更强。如果你不断练习，你会意识到这非常有效，而且可能随着时间的推移，你会做得更好。对我而言，这真的非常重要。 那么是什么驱动着你？从心理学的深层次来说，我认为是解决问题的能力。如果我回顾自己职业生涯中的不同岗位，会发现它们有一些共同点，解决问题就是其中之一。作为工程师，你面对一个问题，查看数据，然后找到解决方案。作为CEO，这个过程依然适用，尽管面临的问题稍有不同。比如，这个行业未来五年的需求是什么？我们该如何实现这些目标？如何找到资金支持？这一系列问题仍然需要解决。我认为必须将问题简单化，这样才能找到解决办法。如果你认为问题太复杂，你永远无法解决。这就是事物的运作方式。解决问题驱动着我，与人交流亦是如此。在这个行业里，我感到非常幸运，遇到的每个人都很有启发性。无论是对话、晚餐还是会议，每一次交流都令人兴奋，因为人们有丰富的经验，他们大多不守成规并且希望带来积极的改变，或许也有共同解决问题的需求。与人沟通一直是我职业生涯中非常重要的动力，即便到今天依然如此。最后，我想说的是，我非常享受自己的工作，非常喜欢在ASML的工作，这种热爱在我这个行业已经持续了25年，没有一天是无聊的。

If you were to to go a bit deep why do you work so hard is it a particular person you want to you want to prove wrong yeah you know does it does it come back to some type of inferiority complex that we all had when we were younger or what do you think there is a time in your career you think you have to be honest I think the first part of your career is about proving yourself I think I truly believe that and I truly believe that because I I still remember the day I felt I was done with that there was a day I say okay I think I've proven what I wanted to prove to myself maybe to my friends my family and then you look forward I say okay what's next and I think what's next after that is okay what can I do to help and you know where is the place where I can do something that that matters that can really help and you know when I became the CEO of SML when people asked me to become the CEO of SML this was one of the two question I really had the question was really if I'm going to do that can I really bring something this company is great you know with Peter Martin before they have done something extraordinary even intimidating for most people so if I do it am I going to do something that could be you know really good and it was very important for me to be able to answer yes to that question in all honesty you know not very fundamentally I think it's for me that when you don't have to prove anything anymore I think it's very liberating so I wish everyone that this come as early as possible in their career and then you have more space basically to really think about what can I do to be useful or what can I do to help tell me about the day where you felt you had no more to prove.

如果你深入思考一下，为什么你工作如此努力？是不是有一个特定的人让你想要证明他们错了？你知道这种动机是否与我们年轻时都有的某种自卑感有关？你认为在职业生涯中有没有一个时刻你必须坦诚面对自己？我认为职业生涯的第一阶段就是为了证明自己，我坚信这一点，因为我仍然记得有一天，我感觉我已经完成了这个阶段，那天我告诉自己，我已经证明了我想向自己，也许是我的朋友和家人证明的东西。然后我展望未来，思考接下来应该做些什么。我认为接下来要考虑的是，我能做些什么来帮助别人？在哪里我可以做一些真正有意义、有帮助的事情？当我成为ASML的CEO时，当人们邀请我成为ASML的CEO时，我面临着两个很重要的问题。其中一个问题是，如果我接下这个职位，我能否真的为公司带来一些贡献？毕竟在Peter Martin的带领下，这家公司已经取得了令人瞩目甚至令人生畏的成就。因此，对我来说，非常重要的是能够诚实地回答这个问题，是否我能为公司做出一些真正好的事情。从根本上讲，我认为当你不再需要证明什么时，这是一种很大的解放。我希望每个人都能在职业生涯中尽早达到这个阶段，这样你就能够有更多的空间去思考我能怎样做才更有益，或者我能怎样去帮助别人。告诉我，当你感觉自己不再需要证明什么的时候的那一天。

well it's worth you know I always wanted to either run my company or run what I would call a company within a company and this happened in SML in fact when I took one of the the the the product unit this was the application product unit which was a very new unit I'm looking back now 2011 or 2012 I forgot exactly so more than 10 years ago and this this was really what I wanted I never wanted to become CEO I never wanted to be part of a board of management I wanted to do that and then I had it I did it it went well and then I after that most probably I was more free than ever and I think in many ways is most probably what also allowed me to to come to where I am today how do you relax well I don't get stressed so that's the best way to relax is you know I was just explaining to one of my employee today that you know stress is not a good friend so I'm you know it's I don't know if if if this is surprising or not but I don't feel stress even being a SML or CEO so that's one thing

当然，我一直希望能经营自己的公司，或者是在一家公司内部负责一个独立的业务部门。事实上，这一愿望在SML公司得以实现。当时，我负责了一个新的产品部门，具体来说是应用产品部门。回头看，大概是在2011或2012年，准确时间我有些记不清了，已经是十多年以前的事了。这正是我想要的，我从未想过要成为CEO或者管理董事会的一员，我只想做我热衷的事。后来，我做到了，并且进展顺利。从那以后，我可能比以往更加自由，这样的经历在很多方面也助力了我今天的成就。 至于如何放松自己的问题，其实我并不会感到压力，这是放松的最佳方式。我今天还跟一个员工解释说，压力不是好朋友。所以，不知道这能不能算令人惊讶，我在SML甚至作为CEO也从不感到压力。

and when I want to do something that I really like you know I like to go to the upper right that's one thing I like I like music a lot so you know I put it's in the high six with technology nowadays you put the airport and you can be in your in your world with your music I like to do that a lot I like to support when I have a time I love to be with my family with the kids because the you know it is nice with children as they force you to forget everything simple things I would say very very simple things I find them very healthy and by having them all the time for me I think you know it never bring me to to to a place where I feel stress how do you make sure you don't get stressed is it genetic or is it something you have trained I think most really something I have trained because well I don't I will not say my parents were not stressed so I think most really something I have trained maybe also as a reaction to that but I I like you know when I need to think when I need to decide I like to feel that I'm calm I feel that usually it's a much better state of mind basically to to make decisions so I think it's practice you know some people do yoga or things like that to reach that I don't do that but that's that's more in the and notice breathing is very important you know the way you breathe in life is very important I always tell people when you're going to make a big presentation you have to watch the way you are going to breathe for the first 30 seconds because if you if you breathe too fast your your presentation will go wrong very quickly so you have little sinks like that but I think it's it's practice most probably

当我想做一些我真正喜欢的事情时，我通常会选择去右上角，呃，这是我喜欢的事情之一。我也非常喜欢音乐，借助现代科技，你只需戴上耳机，就能沉浸在属于自己的音乐世界里。我特别喜欢这样做。此外，当我有时间时，我喜欢陪伴家人和孩子们，因为和孩子们在一起很美好，他们能让你忘记烦恼，专注于简单的事情。我觉得这种简单的生活方式对我很健康，也让我远离压力。 至于如何避免压力，这是天生的还是后天训练的？我认为主要是通过后天训练，因为我不能说我的父母不曾感到紧张。因此，更多的是我自我训练的结果，也许这也是一种反应，但我喜欢在需要思考和做决定时保持冷静。我觉得在冷静的状态下决策往往更好。所以我认为这一切都靠练习。有些人会通过瑜伽等方式来达到这种状态，而我则不这样做。呼吸非常重要，我常告诉人们，在做重要演讲时，要注意前30秒的呼吸方式，因为如果呼吸太快，演讲很快就会出错。这些小技巧都是通过实践得来的。

when you go to bed and when you wake up well that depends entirely I would say you know in normal day meaning when I'm at home and you know I would say I'll sleep seven hours maybe six seven hours when I travel that can go down to three four hours and that doesn't disturb me so you know the energy level mind energy level is usually pretty high and I need to rest you know usually short time so some some time I can fall asleep in a car it's happened very often between the meetings and 10 minutes can get me back to to the max energy level so you know it's one of the challenges I think with this life at a sick physically you have to to be able to take it but you you don't have a rhythm you have to learn to live without you know a reason because if you want to have the rhythm I think it's completely so you have to learn how to sleep in the plane sleep in the car all those things are important where does energy come from you think I think I think it comes to what I said before I mean you know doing what I do today is is an unbelievable or pretty privilege I mean being the CEO of ASMR is you know there's so many good interesting exciting things happening every day that the energy just flow you know it's like coming from all parts I told you about the people I meet I mean every time I go see customers suppliers the the discussion we have are so so deep right so exciting I mean we talk about so exciting stuff I mean you know when you grow as an engineer you know I study science right and you walk in a company that pretty much allow you to do any of your dream as long as they become a product someone can use in a factory I mean you know did we dream about anything different when we are engineer I don't think so so that gives you a lot of energy

当你上床睡觉和醒来时，这完全取决于情况。我可以说，在平时的日子里，也就是说当我在家时，我通常会睡七个小时，也许是六、七个小时。当我出差时，睡眠时间可能减少到三到四个小时，但这并不会打扰我。我的精神能量水平通常很高，我通常只需短暂休息。有时候我可以在车里睡着，这在会议之间经常发生，短短10分钟就能让我恢复到最佳状态。生活在这种节奏中，身体上会有挑战性，因为你必须学会适应没有规律的生活，因为如果你想要正常的节奏，我觉得完全不可能。你必须学会在飞机上、车里睡觉，这些都很重要。 至于能量从哪里来，我认为这来自于我之前所说的。就像我现在所做的事情是一个难以置信的、很大的特权。作为ASML的CEO，每天都有这么多有趣、激动人心的事情发生，能量仿佛从各处流入。就像我提到的那些我遇见的人，每次我去见客户、供应商时，讨论的内容都非常深入，非常激动人心。我们谈论的都是令人兴奋的事物。作为一个工程师成长起来，我学习科学，并在一个基本上允许你实现任何梦想的公司工作，只要这些梦想能变成别人可以在工厂中使用的产品。我们当工程师时是否梦想过不同的事物？我认为没有。因此，这会给你带来很多能量。

what do you read I like to read literature you know noverse because I I like to to kind of move away so if I have free time I'm not going to read business book I don't like business book as a story for anyone writing them but I don't find this inspiring at all I like novels I like people that create and that's what you see noverse right has there been a novel which has been particularly important for you well I there's a French writer like very much it's called it's called Camus I don't know if you you know him the he wrote a book it's called The Stranger he has a lot of very good book I like or so Andre Malro

你看什么书？我喜欢读文学作品，你知道的，小说，因为我喜欢跳出现实。所以如果我有空闲时间，我不会去读商业书籍。对任何写这些书的人来说，我并不是在批评，但我不觉得这些书有启发性。我喜欢小说，我喜欢那些创作的人，这就是你在小说中看到的。有没有一本对你特别重要的小说？嗯，有一位我很喜欢的法国作家，叫加缪，不知道你是否听说过。他写了一本书，叫《局外人》。他还有很多其他非常好的书，我也喜欢安德烈·马尔罗。

so they are contemporary writer I like the style I like the the modernity of it and also the creativity so it's very interesting it's both creative but not in a in a very obvious way like maybe older literature I like his story book or so I like to read a lot biography because you you learn about people life which sometimes can be also very inspiring so that's typically the kind of things I will read last question what advice do you have for young people well I think you know is find something you really like you know I think don't think too much about your career I see too many young people who come to see me and they want to be CEO and they ask me how do we become CEO and I try to explain them in the nicest possible way that this is a this is almost an observed question this is not the right question

所以，他们是我喜欢的当代作家，我喜欢他们的风格、现代感以及创造力。他们的作品非常有趣，并不是像一些老作品那样以非常明显的方式展现创意。我喜欢他的故事书，也喜欢读很多传记，因为你可以了解人们的生活，往往非常有启发性。这就是我通常会读的东西。 最后一个问题，你对年轻人有什么建议？我认为应该找到你真正喜欢的东西。我看到太多年轻人来找我，他们想成为 CEO，问我如何才能成为 CEO。我总是尽可能友好地告诉他们，这几乎是一个荒谬的问题，这不是一个正确的问题。

the right question is what am I going to do to more that really get me excited that really bring the best out of me because if you go and do that every day yeah there may be a chance you become CEO most probably a bigger chance that you don't but you will equally end up doing something that brings you joy energy and most really also bring that to the people around you so I think it's very important to enjoy the moment but really find something you like I think it's even start when you you study you you have to study something you like of course I will advise them to to take a look at this industry because I think this is a great place but you know I also don't know everything so I will not limit it to that but I think it's very important for them to to not think too much I you know I

正确的问题是：我要去做什么事情才能让我真正感到兴奋，让我发挥出最佳状态。因为如果你每天去做这些事情，虽然有可能成为CEO，但更有可能不会。然而，你最终会从事一些让你和周围的人都感到快乐和充满活力的事情。因此，我认为享受当下是非常重要的，但找到自己喜欢的事情更加重要。甚至在学习阶段，你就要选择自己感兴趣的专业。当然，我会建议他们考虑这个行业，因为我认为这是一个很好的领域。但我也不可能知道所有事情，所以我不想仅仅局限于此。我认为重要的是不要想得太多。

think it's one problem when society gets so smart over time right people think too much I think you have to be able to enjoy the moment even if you are very very smart well Kristoff is very clear that you are enjoying your job as CEO of ASML incredibly important job and so please on behalf of all of us keep shrinking those chips so that the world can continue to move forward we'll do our best wonderful big thank you thank you very much if you like

我认为，随着社会的进步和智慧的增长，人们有时会想得太多。这是一个问题。我觉得即使你非常聪明，也要学会享受当下的时刻。 好在克里斯托夫非常清楚，你在担任ASML首席执行官这一重要职位时，非常享受自己的工作。因此，请继续努力缩小芯片尺寸，让世界得以继续前进。我们会尽最大努力做到这一点。 非常感谢！如果你喜欢的话。