Morgan Housel: Understand & Apply the Psychology of Money to Gain Greater Happiness

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Morgan Haussel. Morgan Haussel is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and an expert in private wealth generation and management. He is also the author of the spectacularly best-selling book, The Psychology of Money. Today we talk about the psychology of money. We talk about how money can change your psychology. We talk about how most people tend to lie at the extremes of either saving too much money or spending too much money. We talk about how most people get it completely wrong when it comes to framing in our minds what money is, what its real value is, in its ability to generate happiness within us.

欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，在这里我们讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。今天的嘉宾是Morgan Haussel。Morgan Haussel是Collaborative Fund的合伙人，也是私人财富生成和管理的专家。他还是畅销书《金钱心理学》的作者。今天我们讨论金钱的心理学，探讨金钱如何改变你的心理。我们还讲到，大多数人在储蓄过多或花费过多的两个极端上倾向于撒谎。我们讨论了很多人对金钱的概念完全错误的地方，以及金钱在我们内心产生快乐的真正价值。

And no, I am not going to tell you, and Morgan is not going to tell you, that beyond a certain dollar amount you don't increase your happiness. Because as we all know, money cannot buy happiness, but it can buffer stress. We acknowledge that from the outset. And then Morgan goes on to explain that really what we're seeking when we talk about seeking wealth or money is freedom. Freedom is really about independence and that if we are constantly in pursuit of wealth, well then we are not truly free or independent. So today's discussion is as much about being happy, being free, feeling independent, feeling free of stress as it is about this thing that we call money.

不，我不会告诉你，摩根也不会告诉你，超过某个金额后，你的幸福就不会增加。因为众所周知，金钱买不到幸福，但它可以缓解压力。我们一开始就承认这一点。接着，摩根解释说，当我们谈论追求财富或金钱时，我们真正寻求的是自由。自由真正意味着独立，如果我们一直在追求财富，那我们其实并不是真正自由或独立。所以今天的讨论不仅关乎幸福、自由、感受到独立、感受到没有压力，也关乎我们所说的金钱。

So in other words, Morgan explains not just how to generate and manage monetary wealth, he explains that, but he also explains how to organize your life in and around this thing that we call career, the pursuit of wealth and happiness. And I can think of few topics as important as today's topic. I read Morgan's book, The Psychology of Money, and I loved it. I also love today's discussion because I'm certain that after it's done, you will realize that you've probably been thinking about wealth and money incorrectly in a number of ways. And you've probably been pursuing it incorrectly in a number of ways. But by asking yourself certain probe questions that Morgan raises today and answering those questions, you can arrive in a place where your relationship to money and your pursuit of it really clearly matches your particular goals.

也就是说，Morgan 不仅解释了如何创造和管理金钱财富，他还阐述了如何在我们称之为职业、财富和幸福追求的过程中，组织我们的生活。我认为，很少有话题像今天的话题一样重要。我读了 Morgan 的书《金钱心理学》，我很喜欢。我也喜欢今天的讨论，因为我相信在讨论结束后，你会意识到自己可能在很多方面对财富和金钱的思考是错误的，并且在追求财富的过程中也可能存在问题。但是，通过问自己几个 Morgan 今天提出的探讨性问题，并回答这些问题，你可以让自己与金钱的关系以及对财富的追求与个人目标更加一致。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Wealthfront. I've been using Wealthfront for nearly a decade as my high yield cash account and I absolutely love it. Personally, I'm sometimes hesitant to invest money given the risks involved, so I often prefer to keep it in my Wealthfront cash account where I'm able to earn 4.25% annual percentage yield on my deposits and you can as well. With Wealthfront, you can earn 4.25% APY on your cash through partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With Wealthfront, you also get free same day withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4.25% APY is not a promotional rate. There's no limit to what you can deposit and earn, and you can even get protection of up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks. For same day withdrawals, just start your withdrawal as late as 9pm Eastern to one of over 550 eligible banks and credit unions to get it the same day. And it takes just a few minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investing accounts when you're ready. There are already over a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. Earn 4.25% APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to Wealthfront.com.com.com to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客是独立于我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作之外的。然而，它体现了我想要免费向公众提供科学信息和相关工具的愿望和努力。为此，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是Wealthfront。我使用Wealthfront作为我的高收益现金账户已经接近十年了，并且我非常喜欢它。因为我个人有时候对投资有些犹豫，鉴于其中的风险，我往往更倾向于把钱放在我的Wealthfront现金账户中，在那里我可以获得4.25%的年收益率，你也可以这样做。在Wealthfront，你可以通过合作银行获得4.25%的年收益率，直到你准备好使用或投资这些资金为止。 使用Wealthfront，你还可以每天在周末和假期进行免费即时取款到符合条件的账户。4.25%的年收益率不是一个促销利率。你的存款和收益没有上限，并且通过Wealthfront的合作银行提供的FDIC保险，你甚至可以得到高达800万美元的保护。为了实现同日取款，只需在东部时间晚上9点之前启动取款到超过550家符合条件的银行和信用社之一，就能在当天到账。当你准备好投资时，只需几分钟就可以将你的现金从现金账户转移到Wealthfront的自动投资账户之一。已经有超过一百万人在使用Wealthfront来储蓄更多，赚取更多，并建立长期财富。今天就可以通过Wealthfront在你的现金上赚取4.25%的年收益率。如果你想尝试Wealthfront，可以访问Wealthfront.com.com.com，在首次现金账户存入500美元时获得50美元的免费奖励。

That's Wealthfront.com.com.com to get started now. This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront. Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description.

访问Wealthfront.com.com.com，立即开始。这是Wealthfront的付费推荐。Wealthfront经纪不是银行。年收益率（APY）可能会更改。更多信息，请查看节目说明。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I don't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.

今天的节目由BetterHelp赞助。BetterHelp提供专业的线上心理治疗，由持牌治疗师全程在线进行。我每周进行心理治疗已经超过30年了。最初，我是没有选择的，这是留校条件之一。但很快我就意识到，心理治疗是整体健康中极其重要的一部分。

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好的治疗通常提供三方面的帮助。首先，它能让你与一个值得信赖的人建立良好的关系，无论你有什么问题都可以和他谈心。其次，它能够在情感上支持你，或给予你明确的指导。再者，专业的治疗能提供有用的见解。而通过BetterHelp，你可以很容易找到一个与你契合的专业治疗师，并从中获得这些益处。

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此外，由于 BetterHelp 完全可以在线进行治疗，因此非常节省时间。对于繁忙的日程安排来说，它非常方便，因为你不需要去治疗师的办公室，也不需要在候诊室等待或者找停车位。都不需要。这一切都是在线完成的。如果你想试试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com 并输入代码 “Huberman” 来享受首月 10% 的折扣。再次提醒，是 betterhelp.com，代码“Huberman”。

And now for my discussion with Morgan Haussel. Morgan Haussel, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here. I'm excited that you have a new book coming out next year about the art of spending money. Is that right? That's right. You got it. Today, I want to talk about how to think about money. What is it? How do we frame it within our historical context, meaning our personal historical context? Because I think we all, and each think about money a little bit differently. And then talk about what is the best use or in some cases, not use of money. This is a topic that could go in any number of different directions. But my goal here is that people will get a better understanding of what money is, why they work for it. And really how to make it a true asset to their lives as opposed to something that is forever out of reach in terms of a mount or what they expected to bring them. Right. Looking forward to it.

现在是我与摩根·豪瑟尔的讨论时间。摩根·豪瑟尔，欢迎你。非常感谢邀请我来。我很高兴来到这里。我很兴奋你明年将推出一本关于花钱艺术的新书，对吗？没错，你说得对。今天，我想讨论如何看待金钱。它是什么？我们怎么把它放在我们的历史背景中框定，意思是我们的个人历史背景？因为我认为我们每个人对金钱都有一点不同的看法。然后讨论金钱的最佳用途或在某些情况下不使用的情况。这个话题可以朝着多个不同的方向发展。但我在这里的目标是希望人们能够更好地理解金钱是什么，为什么要为之工作，以及如何真正让它成为生活中的资产，而不是永远无法达到的目标或未能带来预期的东西。好，我很期待。

Great. So your book starts off with this notion that people are not crazy. It's in fact the title of the chapter. Does that mean that people are rational about money? Oh, I think it's very different. What I meant by no one is crazy is that it is so easy for people to look around at society and how other people are spending their money and saving their money and investing their money and say, why the hell would anybody do that? Why would you waste your money on this? Why would you hoard your money like that? And I actually think if you peel back the onion layer and say, what's going on in those people's lives, no one is really that crazy with how they spend their money or save their money.

好的。你的书一开始提出了一个观点：没有人是疯狂的。这实际上是章节的标题。这是否意味着人们在钱财上是理性的呢？哦，我认为这很不一样。我所说的“没有人是疯狂的”是指，当人们观察社会以及他人如何花钱、存钱和投资时，很容易产生疑问：为什么有人会这样做？为什么你会把钱浪费在这上面？为什么你会那样存钱？但实际上，如果你深入了解那些人的生活背景，就会发现没有人真的在他们如何花钱或存钱上表现得很疯狂。

It makes sense to them in that moment. My brother-in-law is a social worker. He works with very disadvantaged kids, kids who are abused at home, who don't have homes. And a lot of those kids, not surprisingly, do very poorly at school. They just behave, they get in fights, they don't go to school. And it is so common for those kids that the teacher will look at those kids and say, why are you acting like this? Why don't you do the right thing? It's so obvious. And he says, there's a phrase in social work, all behavior makes sense with enough information. That if you look at what those kids are dealing with in life, it would all make sense to you, why they are misbehaving at school.

对他们来说，这一刻有意义。我姐夫是一名社工，他与非常不幸的孩子打交道。这些孩子在家中受虐，或者无家可归。毫不奇怪的是，这些孩子在学校的表现往往很差。他们常常行为不端，打架，不去上学。教师们通常会看着这些孩子，问他们为什么要这样做，为什么不做正确的事情，这么明显的道理。而他说，在社会工作中有一句话：所有行为都有其背后的原因。只要你了解这些孩子生活中所面临的问题，就会明白他们在学校为什么会有这些不当行为。

And I think that's a powerful idea for a lot of things in life that all behavior makes sense with enough information. And you can really apply it to money too, that you could easily tie how I spend my money today and save my money today based off of the experience that I've had in life, how I was raised, where I was raised, how old I am, the generation I was born into, all things that are outside of my control. And it is very common to look at people who are spending a ton of money. Well, there's a story behind that. They're spending a ton of money because they want some, you know, for a lot of them, they want some sort of attention. They're trying to get people's attention. Maybe some times they're trying to cover up a hole.

我认为这是一个非常有力的观点，适用于生活中的许多事情，即所有行为在获得足够的信息后都是可以理解的。你可以把这个观点应用到金钱上，我今天的消费和存钱方式可以很容易地和我的生活经历、成长环境、出生地点、年龄以及我所处的世代联系起来，而这些因素都是我无法控制的。我们常常看到有人花很多钱，但背后总是有原因的。很多时候，他们是为了引起别人的注意，有时可能是为了弥补内心的某种空缺。

Maybe they are actually all really enjoying it. People who are hoarding a lot of money. There's a story there too. They experience something that's causing them to do that. And I think that this is really important for two reasons. One, it forces you to realize that there is not one right way to manage money, to save it, to spend it. You've got to figure out what works for you and what works for me might not work for you. There's not one answer. And it's not like math. Like in math, 2 plus 2 equals 4 for everybody. And in money, it's like you've got to figure out it for yourself. It's almost like you're tasting food or you taste the music. Like, just find out what you like and do that. The other thing is I think you become less cynical about other people's decisions. And you don't spend all your day saying, look at that idiot spending their money in a stupid way. He's like, no, it's just you've got to figure it out for yourself. I think you become happier when you're a little less cynical about how other people are doing it.

也许他们真的很享受这样做。那些囤积大量钱财的人，他们背后也有故事。他们经历了一些事情，促使他们这么做。我认为这很重要，主要有两个原因。首先，这让你意识到管理、储蓄或花费金钱没有唯一正确的方法。你需要找到适合自己的方式，可能对我有效的方法对你未必有效。答案不是单一的，这不像数学那样，2加2对每个人来说都等于4。在理财上，你得自己摸索，找到适合自己的方法，就像品尝食物或音乐，只要找到你喜欢的就好了。 其次，我认为这会让你对他人的决策不再那么消极，也不会整天批评别人愚蠢地花钱。你会意识到，每个人都需要找到自己的方式。我觉得，当你不再对别人的做法过于消极时，你会感觉更快乐。

For most people, including myself, the whole notion of money and safety are very closely linked. You know, do we have enough resources to take care of ourselves plus a bit extra of one hopes? I guess I would include in taking care of oneself, buffering one's anxiety about not having enough money. That's part of the psychological care and also taking care of others that we might be responsible for or simply want to take care of. That's very closely linked to notions of how much and what type of education to get. I mean, I think everyone, presumably at some point, goes through the mental gymnastics of is it worth it to get an advanced degree? What major should I focus on? Are there any jobs there when I went to school to be a neuroscientist?

对于大多数人，包括我自己，金钱和安全的概念是紧密相连的。你知道的，我们是否有足够的资源来照顾自己，还希望有一些额外的盈余？我想我会把缓解自己的金钱焦虑也算作自我照顾的一部分。这也是一种心理上的关怀，同时还包括照顾那些我们可能要负责的人或我们想要关心的人。这与我们应该接受多少以及什么类型的教育的想法紧密相关。我想，每个人可能都会在某个阶段思考，是否值得去获得一个更高的学位？应该专注于哪个专业？当我选择去学校学习神经科学时，那里会有工作机会吗？

A cardiologist, a friend of our family said, why would you go into neuroscience? There are no jobs in that. There are plenty of jobs in neuroscience and still are. I wouldn't say that most of them are high paying jobs. So, you know, we know that higher education doesn't always scale with higher income. As we grow up and move into the world, you know, we're thinking about how to integrate all these different things, what we want to do because it's interesting versus what will make us money. In your experience and observation, and in writing your book, is there some sort of mental path to cut through these different considerations? I mean, when we talk about money and wealth, you know, what should we really take into consideration? Is there some sort of checklist? I mean, it becomes a pretty vast space.

我们家的一位朋友是一名心脏病专家，他问道，为什么你要去研究神经科学？那领域没有工作机会。其实神经科学领域有很多工作机会，现在仍然如此。但可能大多数都不是高薪工作。所以，我们知道高等教育并不总能带来高收入。随着我们长大并进入社会，我们在思考如何整合这些不同的因素：我们希望做感兴趣的事情还是能赚钱的工作。在您的经验和观察中，以及在您写书的过程中，有没有什么心路历程可以帮助我们理清这些不同的考量？就是说，当我们谈论金钱和财富时，该如何考虑这些问题呢？有没有一份清单可循？这确实是个很广阔的话题。

I believe that you get the best workout of yourself in terms of going after things you're really interested in. But, you know, there may not be money in things that are highly interesting to somebody. I asked Daniel Kahneman a very similar question about 10 years ago. Kahneman is a world-renowned psychologist, won the Nobel Prize in Economics, passed away a year or two ago. And he said, the trait that you need to do well with money over time, no matter who you are, is a well-calibrated sense of your future regret. What are you going to end up regretting in the past? I think at the highest level, that's how you should base all of your financial decisions, is will I regret spending this or not spending this? Will I regret making or not making this investment? Now, much easier said than done.

我相信，当你追求自己真正感兴趣的事情时，会得到最好的锻炼。不过，这些事情可能并不总是和赚钱有关。大约十年前，我问了丹尼尔·卡尼曼一个类似的问题。卡尼曼是一位世界知名的心理学家，曾获得诺贝尔经济学奖，他一两年前去世了。他说，不论是谁，要想在金钱上长期做得好，需要一个对未来遗憾的良好判断力。你会对过去做什么感到后悔呢？我认为，在最高层面上，这就是你做所有财务决策时的基础：我会后悔花这个钱或不花这个钱吗？我会后悔做这个投资或不做这个投资吗？当然，说起来容易做起来难。

I think most people do not fully understand their own sense of regret, what they're likely to look back and say, I wish I had not have done this. The other thing is that it changes over the course of your life. I'll give you a perfect example. I'm a big saver, have been for my entire adult life. If heaven forbid, if I were on my deathbed tomorrow, would I regret the vacations I didn't take, the cars I didn't buy, the answer right now is absolutely not. I would feel so good knowing that my wife and kids are going to be okay. So I would take so much pleasure in knowing that I did not spend that money. I saved it for their protection.

我认为大多数人并不完全了解自己的悔意，也不知道他们将来回顾时会说“我真希望当初没有这样做”的事情。另外，这种悔意会随着人生阶段的变化而改变。我可以给你一个完美的例子。我是一个喜欢存钱的人，成年后一直如此。如果不幸的是我明天就躺在病榻上，我会后悔那些没去的度假或没买的车吗？现在的答案绝对是否定的。知道我的妻子和孩子会安然无恙，我感到很欣慰。所以，知道我没有花掉那些钱，而是保存下来为了他们的保障，我感到由衷的快乐。

Will I still feel that way if I'm 80 years old? Then maybe I will look back and say, I should have lived a little bit more. I should have given my money away while I could have seen it being given away. So it changes throughout the course of your life. But I think if you're always thinking through the lens of, what am I going to regret? It's never about YOLO or about like, oh, you know, save today, so you can have it for tomorrow. I think that's too simple to think about it. You have to know what you're going to regret in the future and look back. And back to everyone's different. What I will regret might be very different from what you will regret.

我到了80岁时还会有这样的感觉吗？也许那时我会回顾过去，对自己说：“我应该多体验生活；我应该在有生之年，把我的钱捐出去，亲眼见证它被捐出。” 人生过程中，想法会不断变化。但是，我觉得如果你总是用“我会后悔什么”的视角去思考问题，那么生活就不仅仅是“及时行乐”或“今天存钱留到明天用”这么简单。重要的是要知道将来会后悔什么，从而更好地规划人生。而且每个人都不同，我后悔的事情可能与你后悔的事情截然不同。

Very interesting story from Jeff Bezos. He talked about when he started Amazon back and I think it was 1994. The reason he started it and he knew that there was very little chance it was going to work when he first started it. But he said, if I do not try this, I will regret it. And if I try it and it fails, I won't regret that. That's an amazing story that talks about his entrepreneurial spirit. The other thing when I first heard that story is, bless him for thinking that. I do not have that personality. If I devoted my entire life and my family's money and my parents' money to a startup and it failed, I might regret that. I admire and I'm grateful for the people who do not have that vision as he does, made the world better.

这是一个关于杰夫·贝索斯的非常有趣的故事。他谈到了他在大约1994年创立亚马逊的经历。当时，他创立亚马逊是因为他知道如果不尝试，他将会后悔，而即便尝试了失败，他也不会后悔。这是一个展示他企业家精神的精彩故事。当我第一次听到这个故事时，我很佩服他的这种想法。我没有他的这种性格。如果我把一生、家人的钱和父母的钱都投入到一个创业项目中，然后失败了，我可能会感到后悔。我钦佩并感激那些像他一样有远见的人，他们让世界变得更加美好。

But everyone's sense of regret is going to be a little bit different. And sometimes this sense of what one is likely to regret, if we have access to it at all, because it sounds like we're not very good at anticipating this, as Kahneman pointed out. Most people lack a well calibrated sense of future regret. That's going to change over time, so it's dynamic. And here we're talking about investing in two year or four year degrees. We're talking about investing in one's time, that is, in a particular profession.

每个人的遗憾感受都会有些不同。有时候，即使我们对自己可能会感到遗憾的事情有些意识，但这些意识往往不够准确，正如卡尼曼指出的，大多数人对未来悔恨的感知不够精准。这种感受会随着时间而变化，是动态的。在这里，我们谈论的是投入时间去学习两年制或四年制的学位，以及在某个专业领域投入时间的问题。

And I think we come up with all these explanations post hoc about, well, you know, I went to that company. I went into that line of work. I spent 10 years there, or the startup failed, but I learned a valuable lesson that then really supported me in a future endeavor. And so we rationalize our poor choices from the past in ways that allow us to connect the dots to sort of steal from the famous Steve Jobs speech. And yet all of this really says that we are very poor at placing our current experience and our past experience into any kind of future projection of ourselves. You talk a little bit about this in your book, and this really sunk in for me in a major way that we don't really know or anticipate how we are likely to change as we get older.

我认为我们总是事后找各种理由，比如说，我去那家公司工作，我进入了那个行业，并在那里工作了十年，或者那个创业项目失败了，但我学到了一些宝贵的经验，这些经验在我以后的工作中给了我很大的帮助。因此，我们会为自己过去的错误选择找一些理由，这样就可以像史蒂夫·乔布斯著名演讲中那样，把事情串联起来。然而，这一切其实表明，我们很不擅长将当前和过去的经历应用到对未来自己的预期中。你在书中也稍微谈到了这一点，这对我触动很大，因为我们实际上并不清楚或预见到我们随着年龄增长会如何改变。

Right, so this thing is psychology called the end of history illusion, which means that you are very aware of how much you've changed in the last 20 years. You are smarter, wiser, you have your beliefs about things in life have evolved. And that's true for most people, but most people, if you actually dig into it, they think if you say, who will you be in 20 years from now? They think they'll roughly be the same person there today. It's always this belief that I have grown so much in the past, but I'm done growing because it's hard to project how you're going to be different in the future.

好的，这个概念在心理学中被称为"历史终结错觉"。它的意思是，你非常清楚自己在过去20年里发生了多少变化。你变得更聪明、更有智慧，你对人生的信仰和看法也有所发展。这对大多数人来说都是事实。然而，如果深入探讨，大多数人会认为，如果你问他们20年后会成为什么样的人，他们会觉得自己与现在大体相同。总是存在一种信念，即我在过去已经成长了很多，但我已经停止成长了，因为很难预测自己在未来会有怎样的变化。

A lot of that is if I tell myself 20 years from now, I'll have very different beliefs about politics, whatever it might be. What I'm effectively admitting is what I believe today is wrong, and you don't want to believe that. Everyone wants to wake up and look in the mirror and say what I believe today is the right thing. It's just like a self justification of your own beliefs to mix it easier to go about the days. What I believe right now is the right thing. And maybe you have a little bit of doubt around the edges, but most of it is what I believe is true. So you don't want to believe that you're going to adjust and adapt those beliefs over time. So it becomes difficult to take a truly long-term view and make a decision today that is going to be something that you're not going to regret in the future. As I've always framed this, I think the only antidote to this of trying to get around this problem is avoiding the extreme ends of financial planning. And a lot of people are on the extreme ends.

很多时候，我会告诉自己，20年后，我在政治或其他任何事情上的信仰会变得非常不同。实际上，这就意味着我承认自己今天的信仰是错误的，而这是人们不愿意面对的。大家都希望每天醒来时能够对着镜子说：“我今天的信仰是正确的。” 这就像是自我证明自己的信仰，使得我们更容易度过每一天。我们相信自己现在的观念是正确的，可能会对一些细节有点疑虑，但大部分时间我们都认为自己的信仰是对的。因此，我们不愿意相信自己会随着时间的推移而调整和适应这些信仰。这使得我们很难以真正长远的眼光来作出今天的决定，以确保将来不会后悔。对于这个问题，我一直的看法是，唯一的解决方法就是避免在财务规划上走极端，而实际上很多人都处于极端。

On one end, you have the fire movement. The people who save 90% of their income and they want to retire at 28, kind of that kind of thing. On the other hand, you have the yellow crypto traders who are like, doesn't matter. Just throw it all down and let's see what happens. Those extreme ends are what you are most likely to regret at some point in the future. And the crypto, look, I think a lot of those people are young and they have time to make up for their mistakes. I did a lot of really dumb things with my money in my teens and twenties. But I think a lot of them, that's where they are most likely to look back. You know, it's one thing to lose a lot of money in your twenties and say, ah, it doesn't really matter. But then when you're 48 and trying to put your kids through college, that's when you're going to look back. I wish I hadn't done something like that. So those extreme ends are like, have the highest odds of future regret.

在一端，你会看到"火族运动"——那些存下自己90%收入，希望28岁就退休的人。另一方面，则是"黄派"加密货币交易者，认为无所谓，只要把钱全部投进去就看结果。这些极端的行为很可能在未来让你感到后悔。至于加密货币，我觉得很多这样的人都还年轻，他们还有时间来弥补错误。我在十几岁和二十几岁时也做过很多财务上的蠢事。但是我认为，他们会在未来的某个时候回顾自己的决定。二十多岁时亏很多钱可能没那么在意，但到了四十八岁，想要供孩子上大学时，你可能会回想，"我真希望当初没那么做。" 所以这些极端的做法最有可能导致未来的遗憾。

In order to, as I described it before, carve a path through this for people, wondering if people generally fall into either one or the other category of, as you described with Bezos, you know, not wanting to regret not having done something. Okay. So I think of that in sort of pseudo neurobiological terms as being drawn toward the possible dopaminergic or other rewards of having succeeded. Really, that's what he's envisioning presumably is the pain of having not had been given himself the opportunity to succeed. Yeah. Okay. That's one way to put it. And then the other path would be just avoiding the pain of loss. And there are a lot of studies, I think, condimented. Some of them, in fact, that people work a lot harder to avoid the pain of loss than to gain something.

为了让我之前提到的那个想法更清晰地呈现给大家，我在想，是否人们通常分为两种类型，就像你提到贝佐斯时说的那样，一种是不想因为没有尝试某事而后悔的人。可以从伪神经生物学的角度思考这一点，这种人在追求成功时可能感受到多巴胺或者其他奖励机制的吸引。实际上，他可能设想的是如果不给予自己成功的机会，将会感受到的痛苦。另一条路径则是避免失去的痛苦。有很多研究表明（其中有些是康德曼特的研究）人们往往更加努力地去避免失去的痛苦，而不是单纯为了获得某些利益。

But in thinking about the people I know of cross various wealth scales and different ages, it seems that some people are just more motivated to try new things because they like doing new things. They like the sense of reward that can come from doing those things. And so it really is painful for them to stay in the same place financially or otherwise. Other people, they like the sure thing. They like reliability. And you can see this in a lot of domains of their life. I mean, I don't want to extrapolate this to all aspects of their life. But some people like dogs that the entire breed is known for rarely ever having bitten somebody. Other people like to raise King Corzos. And while I'm sure there's some really nice loving King Corzos out there, they occasionally bite it when they bite it serious. So are we really talking about a propensity for risk versus safety? And do you think that people fall into more or less two camps on that? I think it's true that some people would go nuts if they took the safe path. And even if they're doing it in the name of like, I don't want to regret this, but they need some sort of variability in their life. They need to go out and do things.

在思考我认识的不同财富水平和年龄段的人时，我发现有些人更加愿意尝试新事物，因为他们喜欢做新事物所带来的成就感。对他们来说，在经济上或其他方面停滞不前是非常痛苦的。相反，有些人喜欢可靠的、确定的事情。你可以在他们生活的很多方面看到这种倾向。当然，我并不是说这适用于他们生活的所有方面。但有些人喜欢养那种几乎从不伤人的狗，而另一些人喜欢养科尔索獒犬。虽然肯定有非常温顺的科尔索獒犬，但它们偶尔会咬人，而且一旦咬了后果很严重。那么我们是否实际上在谈论冒险与安全的倾向？你是否认为人们基本上可以分为这两类？我觉得确实有一些人在走安全路线时会感到抓狂。他们需要一些生活的变化，需要外出尝试新事物。

The other element is we don't know the path that we didn't take. And I'll give you a personal example of this. 20 years ago, I was enrolled in Pepperdine. But I didn't go. I was enrolled in just at the last second I transferred. So I never actually attended, but I was all enrolled. And of course, I think, what would my life have been if I had gone there? Because the school that I transferred to, I met my wife, started my career there. And it's easy for me to say, God, I'm so glad I did not go there. Because my life would not be what it is today. But the truth is, maybe it would have been fine. It would have been better. You never know the path that you didn't take where they're going to end up.

另一个因素是，我们不知道没有选择的道路会怎样。我给你举个我个人的例子。20年前，我曾被佩珀代因大学录取，但我没有去。在最后一刻，我转到了另一所学校。所以我实际上并没有去上学，但已经完成了所有的入学手续。当然，我会想，如果我当时去了佩珀代因，我的人生会是怎样的。因为在我转去的学校，我遇到了我的妻子，并且在那开始了我的职业生涯。我可以很轻松地说，天哪，我真庆幸当时没去，因为否则我的人生就不会是现在这个样子。但事实上，也有可能那样子也不错，甚至更好。你永远不知道那些未选择的道路会通向何方。

So Dr. Kahneman's point, a well-calibrated sense of your future regret, but nobody knows the path that they didn't take and where those would go. So it just makes it very difficult to have any idea of which path you should be on in that end. So I think just avoiding those two camps of the extreme ends of it. But again, as I said earlier, I think that is actually more than half of people are on some sort of extreme end of spending way more than they can or saving way more than they need to. There's a fat tail distribution in how people manage their money. And so that's quite a few people. And I think that's why, I think it's one of the reasons why we live in a society that is richer than it's ever been by far. Not just at the top, but at the median level. The average family is richer than they've ever been. But because we manage it in such extreme ways, is it making people happier? Are we happier today than we were 40 years ago or 100 years ago? That there's not a ton of evidence for. Because managing it in a way that's actually going to make you happier and reduce your regret and live a more meaningful life is much harder than earning it and accumulating it over time.

卡尼曼博士的观点是，我们需要一个对未来后悔的良好评估，但没人知道自己未选择的道路会通向哪里。这让人很难清楚到底该走哪条路。我认为我们应避免走极端，不要花费超出自己能力的金钱，也不要过度储蓄。人们理财的方式呈现出“厚尾分布”——许多人都走在某种极端上。如今的社会整体上比过去富裕得多，不仅限于顶层，就连中等水平的家庭也比以往任何时候都富裕。然而，由于我们以极端的方式管理财富，人们是否因此更快乐呢？相比40年前或100年前，大家是否更幸福呢？这并没有明显的证据。因为真正让你感到快乐、减少后悔和过上更有意义的生活的管理方式，要比单纯地挣钱和积累财富要难得多。

When I was growing up, you would see a mixture of newer cars, including some very nice cars, as well as a lot of older kind of beaten up cars driving around. Nowadays, of course, this varies by area. It's actually rare to see really old beat up cars. You see some really nice old cars that have been restored, but that's a different thing altogether. And I assume this is because of credit that people can now buy things on credit. How has the ability to purchase things on credit changed the way that we think about money generally? I know people who have tremendous credit card debt. And I think are now at the point where they figure that they're never going to pay it off. They're just going to probably not live long enough to pay it off. And they're sort of comfortable with that, which is kind of scary to see. And some of them aren't even particularly big spenders. They just accrued this debt early enough and they can't seem to get out from the trap of that. I know other people who, like myself, pay off my credit card bill every month. I'm like, I hate the whatever it is, 18 plus percent interest. Even if I'm one day late, I'm like, ah, you know. And at the same time, I'm not somebody who likes to purchase many things. I'm not a things guy. I own one or two watches, one truck. Like I'm just not a things guy. But I certainly have my own psychological relationship with money that after talking to you today, I'm going to realize is not optimized either. Right? So it's easy to point fingers at people in these different groups. But going back to this issue of credit, how has the ability to own and use things that we don't really truly own, basically to exceed our income level in terms of the number and type of luxuries that we can enjoy, change the way that people think about money and use money? Because today's discussion in your book, we're talking about money as if it's something that we have, but credit basically is living outside your means. I think the knee jerk response would be, oh, it helps you pull your consumption forward so you can have more toys that you would not have had in a different era. And I actually think for a lot of people, it's the opposite.

当我成长的时候，你会看到路上跑着各种各样的车，包括一些非常好的新车，还有不少破旧的老车。当然，现在这种情况因地区而异。其实现在很少能看到真正破旧的老车了，你可能会看到一些翻新得很好的老爷车，但那是完全不同的事。我猜这是因为大家现在可以通过信用购买东西。那么，能够用信用购买东西这件事，是如何改变我们对金钱的整体看法的呢？我知道有些人信用卡债务非常大，他们可能已经觉得自己永远都还不清了，可能活到老都还不起。他们对此有点心安理得，这让人觉得有些害怕。而有些人其实并不是特别喜欢花钱，只是早期就积累了这些债务，现在似乎无法跳出这个陷阱。我还认识像我自己一样的人，每个月都会还清信用卡账单。我讨厌那百分之18甚至更多的利息。即使迟了一天，我也会觉得很懊恼。同时，我也不是一个喜欢购买很多东西的人。我不是一个物质追求者，我只有一两块手表，一辆车。我对金钱有自己的一种心理关系，今天跟你交流之后，我意识到这种关系也不见得是最优的。很容易对这些不同群体的人指指点点。但回到信用的问题，我们超出了自己收入水平来拥有和使用一些我们不真正拥有的东西，这在一定程度上改变了人们对金钱的看法和使用方式。因为你在书中讨论的是金钱，好像它是我们拥有的东西，但信用实际上是超出自己经济能力来生活。我想，一个直观的反应就是，哦，它让你提前消费，这样你就能拥有更多在其他年代得不到的东西。但我认为对于很多人来说，实际情况是相反的。

That there are a lot of people that have holes in their life, challenges in their life. And a very easy answer if you're not happy with your life and you have a hole you're trying to fill is, well, if I had more money, this problem would go away. And in previous generations, previous decades, you could not just go out and have a ton of more money. You earned your money from your paycheck. That was what you had. Today it makes it easier to try to fill that hole in your life with money. And so you can keep on getting more and more and more. And for a lot of people, they will wake up and say, oh, if only I had that car, my life would be better.

很多人生活中都有空缺或挑战，而一个简单的解决方法就是，如果你对生活不满意，并试图填补这些空缺，你可能会想，如果我有更多的钱，这个问题就会消失。在以往的年代，人们不能随便获得大量财富，你所拥有的钱主要来自于你的工资。然而，如今，人们更容易尝试用金钱来填补生活中的空缺。因此，人们可能会不断追求更多的钱。对于许多人来说，他们可能会醒来想，如果我有了那辆车，我的生活就会更好。

And they go buy that car and they still feel the same. So it's like, ah, you know what? If I had that car and that watch, then I'd feel better. They get the watch, they feel the same. Ah, you know what's missing? A house. I got to go get that fancy. It's just continuous, so spiral. And since you can finance all of that, it makes it easier and easier to go on that spiral. Will Smith made this incredible realization I loved from his biography. He said, when he was, ah, poor and depressed, he had hope because he could tell himself, one day I'm going to have money and all these problems will go away.

他们去买了那辆车，但感觉还是一样。所以他们想，啊，如果我有那辆车和那块手表，我就会觉得好些。结果买了手表，感觉还是没有变化。啊，还缺什么呢？一套房子。我得去买那个豪宅。就这样不断地循环。而且因为可以分期付款，这个循环变得越来越容易地继续下去。威尔·史密斯在他的传记中有个了不起的领悟，我非常喜欢。他说，当他贫穷和沮丧时，他还有希望，因为他可以对自己说，总有一天我会有钱，所有这些问题都会消失。

And then when he was rich and depressed, he was still depressed and he lost all of his hope because he had more money than he could ever spend. So he could not tell himself if only I had more money, these problems would go away. And so for a lot of people, the availability of credit is giving them, I think, a false sense of hope that's keeping them on this hamster wheel of if only I had this bigger house, this nicer car, all these problems that I wake up with every morning would go away and it keeps you on that path, which I think if you actually don't have access to that much money, you're more likely to wake up and say, what is this hole? I need to fix it in a different way.

然后，当他变得富有却抑郁时，他仍然感到抑郁，因为他拥有比自己花费得完还要多的钱，所以他无法对自己说，如果我再多点钱，这些问题就能解决。因此，对许多人来说，信贷的可获得性让他们产生了一种虚假的希望，让他们陷入这样一个困局：如果我有更大的房子，更好的车，这些我每天早晨醒来面临的问题就能消失。这种想法让他们持续走上这个路径。我认为，如果你实际上没有接触到那么多钱，你反而更可能意识到自己的内心缺失从而想办法以不同的方式来解决。

It's health, it's relationships, it's purpose, whatever it might be, rather than trying to put a band-aid of credit over it. So interesting. I sometimes think about the phrase, money can't buy happiness. And my immediate impulse is to respond with, well, somebody with a lot of money probably said that, not because I think money can buy happiness, but money can buffer stress. I have friends who've had children recently who have night nurses, they're looking a lot more rested than the ones that don't because they can't afford them. And on and on, if you have a medical issue, there's this whole world within hospitals that we won't talk about in this episode, but there's this whole world about wealth and how one is actually even treated as a person in a hospital.

这关乎健康、关系、人生的目的，不管是什么，而不是试图用信用卡来掩盖问题，真是很有趣。我有时会想到那句“金钱买不到幸福”，我的第一反应是，一定是个有钱人说的这句话。我并不是觉得钱能买来幸福，但钱的确能缓解压力。我有些朋友最近有了孩子，他们请了夜间保姆，看起来比那些没请的人要精神很多，因为他们付不起保姆。而且，如果你有医疗问题，医院里还存在着一个我们这集节目不会讨论的世界，那就是关于财富和一个人在医院受到的待遇也有天壤之别。

There's a lot of knowledge behind the scenes about people's income level when they come into a hospital, people are going to go wide-eyed when they hear this. They'll get shuttled to different rooms, different conditions that allow them to sleep better, recover better, health outcomes depend on this. And on and on. So money can't buy happiness, but it certainly can buffer stress and it can drive outcomes. So how should we frame that, especially if we are in the pursuit of acquiring more money, more wealth? Because a lot of people are. Money absolutely can buy happiness. It's often though an indirect path. And what I mean by that is, will a big fancy house make you happier? And the answer is probably yes. But the reason it might is because it'll make it easier to host friends and family. And that's what's actually making you happy. It's those extra connections with those people.

在医院的背后，有很多关于病人收入水平的信息，当人们了解到这些信息时会感到惊讶。病人会被分配到不同的房间，不同的环境影响他们的休息和康复，这也决定了他们的健康结果等等。因此，金钱虽然不能直接买来快乐，但确实可以缓减压力并影响结果。那么我们应该如何看待这点，尤其是在我们追求更多金钱和财富的时候，因为很多人都在追求。金钱绝对可以买来快乐，但通常是间接的。我的意思是，比如说，一个豪华的大房子会让你更快乐吗？答案可能是肯定的。但之所以会这样，是因为它更方便你接待朋友和家人，而真正让你快乐的是那些额外的与人交往的机会。

Does going on a nice vacation make you happy? An expensive vacation, yes. Because you're going to form memories with your kids, with your spouse, with your friends, why you're there. That's what's making you happy. So you can't say that money doesn't make people happy. It does. It obviously does. The other thing that's important is what really makes people happy in their core is some sense of purpose. There's a great quote from the movie Boiler Room where he says, people who say money doesn't buy happiness don't have any. I think there's a lot of truth to that. The people who become richer say, of course, I was happier now than I was when I was poor. Of course, I would never want to go back there. But often what's happening is the reason that you are happier when you're rich is because the reason you got rich is because you found some sort of purpose.

度假能让你快乐吗？是的，昂贵的假期确实可以。因为在度假时，你会和孩子、伴侣、朋友一起创造回忆，这才是让你感到快乐的原因。所以不能说金钱不会让人快乐，它确实能带来快乐。另一个重要的是，人们内心深处真正的快乐源于某种意义上的目标感。有一句经典的电影《锅炉房》中的台词是这样说的：那些说钱买不来幸福的人，是因为他们没有钱。我认为这句话很有道理。那些变得富有的人会说：当然，我现在比贫穷的时候更快乐，我绝对不想回到过去。但实际上，让人变得更快乐的原因往往是因为在变富的过程中找到了某种目标感。

You built a business, you were successful in your career. And that gave you a good sense of purpose and identity. And where you see the opposite of that are lottery winners who become rich, but not because they made a good investment, not because they built a business, not because they're successful and their peers liked them and whatnot. There's got lucky. And those are the people so many studies that winning the lottery will not make you happy. It might for a very short period of time, but over time it doesn't because you didn't get any added purpose.

你创建了一个企业，并在事业上取得了成功。这让你感到充实和有一个明确的身份感。而与之相反的是，那些中彩票而变得富有的人。他们的财富不是因为做出了好的投资，不是因为建立了一个企业，也不是因为事业成功或是得到了同事的认可等。他们只是碰巧中奖。有许多研究表明，中彩票并不会让人长久快乐。也许在短期内会有一些开心，但随着时间的推移却不会，因为这种财富并没有给你带来额外的目标感。

You can't wake up in the morning and say, I built this business. I did it. I'm so successful. I got my PhD. I did. There's none of that. You just got lucky. And so that's not going to bring you much happiness. So money does make you happier. I think it can for everybody if you learn how to spend it in your personality and whatnot. Spending a lot of it, spending a ton of money can make you happier. I think there's almost no limit to it, but it's different for everybody. And it's often a roundabout way.

你不能在早晨醒来就说，我建立了这家公司，是我做的，我很成功，我拿到了博士学位，都是我做的。这些都不是事实，你只是运气好。所以，这并不会带给你太多的快乐。但金钱确实能让你更快乐。我认为如果你学会根据自己的性格和需求去花钱，它能让每个人都更快乐。花很多钱可以让你更快乐。我觉得这几乎没有限制，但对每个人来说都是不同的。而且这通常是一种迂回的方式。

I think a lot about this when if I go on an expensive vacation with my kids, let's say that's a 10. That's a 10 out of 10 in terms of just happiness, memories and whatnot. But actually what was making me happy was spending uninterrupted time with my kids. So staying home and playing Legos on the living room floor with them, that might be like an 8 and a half because that's what's making me happy. You just have to figure out the actual purpose. I think a good formula for a pretty good life at the simplest level is independence plus purpose.

我常常想，如果我带孩子去一次昂贵的假期，可能会觉得那是满分的开心体验：无论是幸福感还是回忆。但实际上，让我感到快乐的是和孩子一起不被打扰地度过时光。所以在家里和他们在客厅地板上玩乐高积木，可能是8.5分，因为那才是真正让我快乐的。你只需要弄清楚真正的目的。我认为，一个简单而美好的生活公式就是：独立加上目标。

You need to have a purpose that is bigger than yourself, that you are chasing. Family, religion, work, whatever it might be, different for everybody. And you need to have the independence to make sure you can do it on your own terms rather than chasing somebody else's goal. It's like the highest level of psychological well-being, independence and purpose. And money is not one of those things. But you can easily see how money can help those things. Money brings you independence. It can allow you to find your purpose in a bigger way. You're not chasing, you're not at your boss's whim. You can do whatever you want, you're independent.

你需要追求一个比你自己更大的目标，不论是家庭、宗教、工作还是其他，每个人的目标都不同。同时，你需要有独立性，确保能够按照自己的方式去实现这个目标，而不是追随他人的目标。这就像是最高层次的心理健康、独立性和目的性。金钱本身不是这些东西之一，但你可以很容易看出金钱如何能帮助这些事情。金钱带来独立性，可以让你更大程度地找到自己的目标。你不再追赶，也不受制于老板的意愿。你可以做任何想做的事情，你是独立的。

So using money as a tool can make you happier. Spending money can make you happier. But it's not the thing that is making you happier. It's just a tool to do other things and acquire other things that are actually making you happy. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life. For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients and adaptogens from food alone. For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012. When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system and my gut microbiome. These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance and much more. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim their special offer. Right now, they're giving away five retravel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim that special offer. Today's episode is also brought to us by ROCA. ROCA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality. I'm excited to share that ROCA and I have teamed up to create a new style of red lens glasses. These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down. They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights. The sorts of LED lights that are most commonly used as overhead and frankly lamp lighting nowadays. I want to emphasize ROCA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers. They're not designed to be worn during the day and to filter out blue light from screen light. They're designed to prevent the full range of wavelengths that suppress melatonin secretion at night and that can alter your sleep. So by wearing ROCA red lens glasses, they help you calm down and they improve your transition to sleep. Most nights I stay up until about 10 p.m. or even midnight and I wake up between 5 and 7 a.m. depending on when I went to sleep. Now I put my ROCA red lens glasses on as soon as it gets dark outside and I've noticed a much easier transition to sleep which makes sense based on everything we know about how filtering out short wavelength of light can allow your brain to function correctly. ROCA red lens glasses also look cool frankly. You can wear them out to dinner or to concerts or out with friends. So it turns out it is indeed possible to support your biology to be scientific about it and to remain social after all. If you'd like to try ROCA, go to roca.com. That's ROKA.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order. Again, that's ROKA.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout.

所以，把金钱当作工具可以让你更快乐。花钱可以让你快乐，但不是钱本身让你快乐，而是通过花钱可以得到的其他东西使你快乐。我想稍作休息来感谢我们的赞助商，AG1。到现在为止，许多人都听我说过，如果我只能选择一种补充剂，那就是AG1。原因是AG1是目前最高质量、最全面的基础营养补充剂。这意味着它不仅包含维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补你饮食中的不足，并在繁忙的生活中提供支持。对我来说，即使大多数时候我都吃全食物和少加工的食物，也很难仅从食物中获得足够的水果和蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。因此，自2012年以来，我每天都在服用AG1。当我这样做时，明显增强了我的能量、免疫系统和肠道微生物群。这些对大脑功能、情绪、身体表现等都至关重要。如果你想尝试AG1，你可以访问drinkag1.com/Huberman来领取他们的特别优惠。目前，他们正在赠送五包旅行装加上一年的维生素D3K2供应。同样地，访问drinkag1.com/Huberman可以领取特别优惠。 今天的节目也由ROCA赞助。ROCA制作最高质量的眼镜和太阳镜。我很高兴地分享ROCA和我合作推出了一款新型红色镜片眼镜。这些红色镜片眼镜是为了在晚上太阳下山后佩戴的。它们可以过滤来自屏幕和LED灯的短波长光线。LED灯是目前最常用于顶灯和台灯的光源。我想强调，ROCA的红色镜片眼镜不是传统的蓝光阻挡器，它们不是为了在白天佩戴和过滤屏幕光中的蓝光而设计的。它们的设计是为了防止整个范围的波长在夜间抑制褪黑激素的分泌，从而可能影响你的睡眠。通过佩戴ROCA红色镜片眼镜，它们可以帮助你放松并改善你的入睡过渡。大多数晚上，我会熬夜到晚上10点甚至午夜，并根据入睡时间在早上5点到7点起床。现在，我一到天黑就戴上ROCA红色镜片眼镜，我注意到入睡变得更容易了，这和我们所知道的关于过滤短波长光线如何允许大脑正常运作的信息是一致的。ROCA红色镜片眼镜外观也很酷。你可以在外出就餐、参加音乐会或与朋友聚会时佩戴。所以，事实证明，支持你的生物节律，用科学的方法对待它，同时仍然可以保持社交。如果你想试试ROCA，可以访问roca.com。在结账时输入代码Huberman，可以享受首次订单20%的折扣。再次提示，访问ROCA.com并在结账时输入代码Huberman。

I love the story about spending time with your kids on vacation as unstructured time with them playing Legos at home. My graduate advisor sadly passed away very young of cancer. She was 50 and I knew her kids really when they were in the womb because she was pregnant with the first one and I attended the memorial service there and it was an incredible thing because people gave up and gave their speeches and her kids got up and by then they were I think about 8 and 11 or so. I'm sure they had a great many thoughts and feelings that they didn't share but I think that they didn't share but the one thing that really stood out is they appreciated how much unstructured time their mom had spent with them. It wasn't this big event or something. It was all the unstructured time that she had spent with them and that was very inherent to the kind of person she was and so that really stuck with me and God willing you live a very long time but I think for anyone listening to this and because of the statement that Conman made where that we are not well calibrated to sense a future regret, the unstructured time is perhaps one of the most valuable things that we can give our relationships both the people we engage in them with and ourselves and I don't think it's I don't think it's discussed enough.

我很喜欢这个故事，讲述在假期中与孩子们共度时光的重要性，在家里和他们一起玩乐高的轻松时光同样宝贵。我的研究生导师不幸因癌症去世，去世时年仅50岁。我从她怀第一个孩子时就认识她的孩子们，后来我参加了她的追悼会，场面非常感人。人们纷纷上台致辞，她的孩子们也站出来分享，那时他们大概只有8岁和11岁。我相信他们有许多想法和感受没有分享出来，但有一点非常突出，就是他们特别珍惜母亲与他们共度的那些无拘无束的时光。这不是一场盛大的活动，而是她和他们一直在一起的那些轻松时光，这也反映了她的为人，这让我印象深刻。希望上天保佑你能够长命百岁，但我认为对于所有听到这个故事的人，还有因为Conman所说的我们难以预知未来的遗憾，我们给予人际关系中，包括我们自己在内，无拘无束的时光可能是最有价值的事情之一，而这个话题并没有得到足够的讨论。

There's a gerontologist named Carl Pillimer who wrote a great book called 30 Lessons for Living and what he did is he interviewed about a hundred centenarians and he just said tell me about your life what you know what advice do you have for the rest of us and there's a section of his book about money and he says of the of the thousand people it's a thousand people he interviewed of the one thousand centenarians he interviewed not a single one of them looking back at their lives said I wish I earned more money not a one but virtually every one of them said I wish I spent more time with my kids I wish I was nicer to people I wish I spent more time with my friends my family that was universal but earn more money was not in there whatsoever that stuck with me and as you point out however earning money allows for the opportunity to spend time with kids and loved ones of all kinds it can but I think there are a lot of people from it's the opposite if you are a partner at a law firm you're earning a ton of money congratulations great and you have a big house in a nice car you're also probably working a hundred hours a week and the things that might fill your soul it's different for everybody this is not universal but what might actually make you happy spending time with your friends your family exercising sleeping late is not available to you so that's why it's independence plus purpose and I think there are a lot of people who make millions of dollars per year and have no independence whatsoever they are completely tied to their bosses whims to their work to their employer they might love it I'm not saying you shouldn't do that but they have no independence at all I think there are billionaires who have no independence because they are so tied to doing things whether they like it or not and that's I think a lot of people go crazy in that situation because they're like I'm making five million dollars a year but it's not making me any happier it's like yeah what would make you happier is independence and you are pushing yourself away from that you're probably more independent when you were fifteen and had no money then you are at forty making millions of dollars a year

有位名叫卡尔·皮利默的老年学家写了一本很棒的书，叫做《生活的30个教训》。他采访了大约一千位百岁老人，询问他们的人生经验和对其他人的建议。在他的书中有一节是关于金钱的。他说，在他采访的这千位百岁老人中，没有一个人在回顾自己人生时说希望自己赚更多的钱。没有一位这样说。但几乎每个人都表示希望能多花些时间陪伴孩子，希望自己能对他人更友善，希望能多与朋友和家人相处。这是他们的共同感受，但希望多赚钱的想法却不在其中。 然而，正如有人指出的，赚钱确实能为与孩子和亲人共度时光创造机会。尽管如此，我认为情况可能正好相反。假如你是一家律师事务所的合伙人，赚了很多钱，住大房子，开好车，那可能你正在每周工作一百个小时。这些能够让你快乐的事情——与朋友和家人共度时光、锻炼、睡懒觉——对你来说可能就不再可行了。因此，独立性和目标感是关键。我觉得有很多人每年赚几百万美元，却没有任何的独立性。他们完全受制于上司、工作和雇主的意愿，虽然他们可能热爱自己的工作。我并不是说不应该这么做，但这种情况下他们确实没有独立性。我觉得有些亿万富翁也没有独立性，因为他们被迫做某些事情，无论愿不愿意。我觉得很多人在这种情况下会感到很疯狂，因为他们或许赚着每年五百万美元，但并没有因此更快乐。真正让你快乐的是独立性，而你却在远离它。可能在你15岁一分钱都没有的时候，比现在40岁时年赚几百万美元更有独立性。

So then in an ideal world which of course doesn't exist one would find a vocation or a pursuit that they found really meaningful would work really really hard would make enough money to then I guess retire and spend unstructured time with the people you love and then simply stop working in this model that clearly is an artificial model that I'm creating here because it seems like after a certain point provided you earned that money through an effort that you felt was meaningful presumably with people you enjoy or even if it wasn't you found it meaningful you make that money then it seems that it's all about human interactions at that point yeah and what's true is that that scenario that you know dream scenario might be true for one percent of the people that they can earn enough money to retire young and then pursue whatever they want.

在一个理想的世界中（当然，这个世界并不存在），人们会找到一个对他们来说真正有意义的职业或事业，努力工作，赚到足够的钱，然后，我想，他们就能退休，和自己爱的人一起自由自在地度过时光，然后在这个假设的模型中停止工作。然而，这显然是我创造的一个人为模型，因为看起来在某个时候，只要你通过一份你觉得有意义的努力赚到了足够的钱，无论这个过程是否与喜欢的人一起，至少你找到了意义，赚到了钱，那么接下来就只剩下与人的互动了。实际上，这种理想的情况可能只对百分之一的人来说是真实的，他们能赚到足够的钱，在年轻时退休，然后追求自己的兴趣。

There's an entrepreneur named Felix Dennis who wrote a book many years ago called How to Get Rich and there's a quote in that book he says he was at the time maybe in his seventies and worth about a billion dollars something like that and he said if I knew what I knew now and I could do life over again I would make as much money as I could retire at age thirty five and plant trees and write poetry and he's like looking back that's what I should have done is do but let's leave aside that of course not everybody can do that what do you do he kept working he kept working even though we didn't need more money absolutely this is interesting because people who do achieve a high degree of wealth at a young age seem to keep going and we could make all sorts of assumptions about why it is that they do that expectations that they from others that their ego literally their sense of self in some way or perhaps entirely is tied to the sense that they're still in pursuit that it's somehow a failure to opt out at that point.

有一位名叫费利克斯·丹尼斯的企业家，他多年前写了一本书叫《如何致富》。书中有一句话提到，当时他大概七十多岁，身价约十亿美元左右。他说，如果他能以现在的智慧重回人生，他会赚够了钱后在三十五岁时就退休，去种树和写诗。他回忆道，自己应该这么做。当然，不是每个人都能这样做。那么他做了什么呢？他继续工作，即使他不需要更多的钱。这很有意思，因为那些在年轻时就获得巨大财富的人似乎都在不断前进。我们可以进行各种假设来理解他们这样做的原因，比如他们感受到他人的期望，或者他们的自我认知在某种程度上甚至完全与继续追求有关，觉得在那个时候退出是一种失败。

I mean we can speculate all day but what this guy Felix said really rings true it seems like once people reach a number and it for everyone it's going to be different it's not going to be a billion dollars for everybody once they have enough resources for themselves and the people they need to take care of maybe a little bit more as a buffer it makes no sense to continue on that path well I think there are a lot of people I think you're one of them and I'm one of them who enjoy what they do and if you and I got to a point where we're completely financially independent all the money will need for the rest of our life I would still be a writer you would still do your research because because we enjoy it yeah so it's not it's not just right and I think if actually if you are the kind of person who says once I hit my number I'm done you probably don't love your work at all almost by definition you don't I think what's dangerous so is when the money itself is part of your identity I like being a writer I like the process of writing but if I were to say I have to keep writing books because I need to make more money I just I have to have a higher net worth particularly if I'm past the point of taking care of my family then at that point I think money is actually like a liability it's a financial asset and a psychological liability it's taking control over what you're doing in life if you're saying I have to have more of it I mean if there's anything in life where you're like I have to have more and even when I get more my satiation point goes higher and higher what is that it's an addiction and that's it's controlling you at that point.

我的意思是，我们可以整天推测，但费利克斯说的话真的很有道理。似乎一旦人们达到他们认为足够的财富水平，这个数字因人而异，不会对每个人来说都是十亿美元。一旦他们有足够的资源来照顾自己和需要照顾的人，也许再多一些作为缓冲，继续追求更多财富就失去了意义。我认为有很多人，比如你和我，是真的喜欢自己所做的事情。即使我们达到财务完全独立的地步，有了未来生活所需的一切资金，我仍然会继续写作，你也会继续你的研究，因为我们享受这个过程，所以对我们来说，这不仅仅是工作。 如果你是那种一旦达到了目标就立刻停下的人，你可能并不真的热爱自己的工作，几乎可以肯定你不热爱。危险的是，当金钱成为你身份的一部分时。我喜欢写作，我喜欢这个过程。但是如果我说我必须继续写书，因为我需要赚更多的钱，特别是当我已经能照顾好家人的时候，那我认为金钱实际上就成了一种负担。它是资产却也是心理负担，主宰了你的生活。如果你总是觉得必须要更多，达到一个目标后又有更高的要求，这就是一种上瘾，是它在控制你。

So there are a lot of people for whom money is a financial asset and a psychological liability and I think that's actually true for some of the richest people in society that the more like it it grows exponentially over time the richer you become the more addicted to having more grows on you in the backdrop of everything we've talked about thus far is the biology of dopamine reward dopamine of course being a molecule that people associate with reward but it's really about the pursuit of reward it's about more it's about and it's it's no coincidence that dopamine is involved in generating movement in the body this is why people with Parkinson's who are depleted in dopamine can't generate movement and it's also involved in generating cognitive movement and pursuit paying attention to things there is this idea that I've been pushing for a few years now that kind of throws its arms around a big literature on dopamine that says that addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure but your definition is actually much better I realize addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure and or safety or a sense of safety right because here we're not talking about making more money to enjoy things more we're talking about making more money to avoid the sense that pain is coming or that we are vulnerable

因此，对于许多人来说，金钱既是经济资产，又是心理负担。我认为这对于一些社会上最富有的人尤其如此。随着财富的增长，越来越多的人会对拥有更多金钱感到上瘾。在我们讨论的背景下，涉及到的是多巴胺奖励的生物学。多巴胺通常被认为与奖励有关，但实际上它更多的是关于追求奖励，是关于更多的东西。并且，这并非巧合，多巴胺还参与身体运动的生成，这也是为何帕金森患者由于多巴胺缺乏而无法产生运动的原因。此外，多巴胺还参与认知运动和追求事物的专注力。我一直在推广一个观点，结合了多巴胺与成瘾相关的广泛研究，认为成瘾是一种能给你带来快乐的事物逐渐缩小的过程。但你的定义更加准确，我意识到，成瘾是能给你带来快乐、安全或安全感的事物的逐渐缩小。因此，这里我们不是在谈论赚更多钱以享受更多的东西，而是为了避免痛苦来临的感觉或自身易受伤害的状态。

and for a lot of people that pain is a social pain that they're not going to climb high enough on the social ladder that their peers are earning more than them that their neighbors have a bigger house whatever it might be that's the pain that they're trying to avoid and that is a game that cannot be won because gratefully thankfully there are a lot of very wealthy people in this world and no matter how much money you're making there's always somebody out there who's earning more living better and has a bigger house in an nicer car that's always the case so if you are on that path of I need to earn more to climb that ladder so I can have more than the next guy I mean that's that's a game that you cannot win and I think that game of comparison too also grows the wealthier you are that you are the billionaires are more likely to compare themselves to other billionaires than the minimum wage worker is to compare themselves to somebody making ten dollars an hour or whatever it's you are more likely to compare your lifestyle the richer you become

对于很多人来说，这种痛苦是一种社交上的压力，他们害怕无法在社交阶梯上爬得足够高，担心同龄人比自己挣钱多，邻居房子比自己大，等等。这种痛苦是他们试图避免的。然而，这是一场无法获胜的游戏，因为这个世界上有很多非常富有的人。不管你赚多少钱，总会有人比你赚得更多，生活得更好，拥有更大的房子和更好的车。这总是事实。所以，如果你总想着需要赚更多钱来攀升社会阶梯，以便比别人拥有更多，那这就是一场你注定无法获胜的游戏。而且我认为，这种比较的心态随着财富的增加而加剧。比如，亿万富翁更有可能彼此比较，而不是拿自己与最低工资的工人进行比较。你的财富越多，你越容易比较自己的生活方式。

and since that comparison to other people is what gives you a feeling of inadequacy there's this irony it's hard to wrap your head around it and come to terms with it but some of the most money insecure people you'll ever meet are the richest people you'll ever meet people who live in a 15,000 square foot mansion yeah but he's got a 17,000 square foot mansion things that ordinary people would never consider that just consumes their life and again that's the point where money is like the psychological debt it's psychological liability it's controlling their it becomes an integral part of their identity they wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and they see a person who makes money that's their identity who are you I'm a person who makes money and that's when like your process of chasing it just becomes like a detriment to your happiness over time you're not using it as a tool to live a better life you're using it as a yardstick to measure yourself against others by I fundamentally believe that all forms of addiction all forms of addiction are fundamentally a fear of death they're a way of shrinking our aperture on time perception so that we're in pursuit of something

翻译： 当你与他人比较时，这种比较会让你感到不如人，于是产生了一种讽刺的现象：你很难理解和接受这个事实，但有些你见过的经济上最不安的人，可能恰恰是那些你见过的最富有的人。住在1.5万平方英尺豪宅的人，却因为别人住在1.7万平方英尺的豪宅而感到不安。这种琐事是普通人根本不会考虑的，却占据了他们的生活。就像心理债务一样，金钱成为了他们心理上的负担，对他们有控制作用，成了他们身份的一部分。他们每天早上醒来，看着镜子里的自己，会觉得自己的身份就是“赚钱的人”。他们时常问自己：我是谁？我是一个赚钱的人。当这种情况发生时，你追求金钱的过程会逐渐损害你的幸福，你不再将金钱视作一种让生活更美好的工具，而是用来与他人竞争的标准。我坚信，所有形式的成瘾，根源上都是对死亡的恐惧。通过成瘾，我们缩小了对时间的感知，把眼光锁定在追求某种东西上。

and for people that can place their addiction within work it has this feedback of being quote-unquote functional as opposed to dysfunctional this is also true for people that are continually seeking awards within their profession I mean they're these professions academia included but other professions where people are constantly pinning awards on one another and it gives this illusion of progress when in fact there's a whole world of things happening now these people often have quite healthy families and relationships so they're not mutually exclusive but I think I know a few billionaires not not many but I know some that are very happy they tend to be the people that are still working and in pursuit of new things avid learners but perhaps by virtue of the work that I do which is focused on science but also health you know the modern billionaires that I'm aware of seem to be very focused on not just making money but also trying to secure their place on the planet for a very long time not through legacy although I think many of them like to provide for the next generations in their family surely not so much by putting their names on the sides of buildings anymore this used to be the way it was done but rather trying to secure their health status because the one thing that money can buy sort of is better health care but money can't buy you more years of your life.

对于那些能够将成瘾与工作结合起来的人来说，这种反馈让他们觉得自己是“功能正常”的，而不是“功能失常”的。这种现象在那些不断追求职业奖项的人当中也很常见，有些职业，学术界也包括在内，人们不断地互相颁发奖项，这给人一种进步的错觉，而事实上，还有很多现实的事情正在发生。这些人通常有着相当健康的家庭和人际关系，所以这两者并不相互排斥。但我认为我认识一些亿万富翁，不多，但我认识一些他们过得很快乐，他们往往仍然在工作，追求新事物，积极学习。也许由于我所从事的工作主要集中于科学和健康，我了解的现代亿万富翁似乎不仅专注于赚钱，还试图长期在这个星球上立足。这并不是通过建立遗产，尽管我相信他们中的许多人愿意为后代提供保障，他们不再像过去那样把名字刻在建筑物的侧壁上，而是努力去保障自己的健康状况。因为金钱可以带来的一个好处是更好的医疗，但钱买不到你生命中的更多岁月。

Except by virtue of the things that you are willing to not do and do behaviorally you still have to exercise you still have to get your sleep you have to avoid certain things and so the modern billionaires often are talking about what they're doing for their health as opposed to their yacht their car etc this has now become the kind of metric for comparison blood profiles become a sort of point of bragging for people it's pretty interesting especially given that you just look back about 50 or even 100 years and and further back and the more wealthy people were the less physical labor they were doing now they're doing more physical labor to try and live longer so what are your thoughts on the on the relationship between physical health and and money I mean obviously there's a there's a sweet spot there but there's no pill that people can purchase to live longer right

除非通过你愿意行为上做或不做的事情，否则你仍然需要锻炼，仍然需要保证充足的睡眠，并且避免一些事情。因此，现代亿万富翁们往往谈论的是他们为健康所做的事情，而不是他们的游艇、汽车等。这已经成为一种用于比较的指标，血液检测结果甚至成为了一种炫耀的资本。这非常有趣，尤其是考虑到大约50或100年前，财富越多的人往往做的体力劳动越少，而现在他们为了活得更长反而增加了体力活动。那么，你对身体健康和金钱之间的关系有什么看法呢？显然，这其中有一个最佳平衡点，但并没有人能买到让自己活得更长的药丸，对吧？

I view it in the negative sense of the people who work to get money so hard that it takes a physical toll on their body and that is so incredibly common and that's another form of debt that you can very easily you can easily measure your net worth and your income you can put a number on it very clean to measure how do you it's much harder to measure your health and it's I think it's easier for people to say yes I'm only sleeping five hours a night and I'm getting I'm on my third divorce and I'm overweight but I'm making a lot of money this year because one is very easy to measure and the others are much harder your happiness your health well not it's harder to measure that and I do think too that if you are very wealthy particularly the very very wealthy you get so accustomed towards I can snap my fingers and literally get anything a Gulfstream jet a mansion whatever I can get it right now

我对那种为了赚钱而拼命工作到身体受到损伤的人持负面看法，这种情况非常普遍，这也是另一种形式的"债务"。你可以很轻松地量化个人净资产和收入（给它们一个明确的数字），但要衡量健康就困难得多。我觉得人们更容易说：“是的，我每晚只睡五个小时，已经离婚三次，而且超重，但我今年赚了很多钱。”因为财务数据很容易衡量，而幸福和健康却难以量化。我也认为，特别是对于非常富有的人，他们习惯于“我可以打个响指就能得到任何东西，比如一架私人飞机、一座豪宅等等”。

Health is like this last elusive thing that's gonna that by and large you cannot purchase and I think that drives a lot of people crazy and that's why if you can have anything in the world by snapping your fingers and getting it then you eventually move towards what's the thing that you don't have and that's immortality and I think that's there's a long history of that going back to the robber barons uh jaundy rocker feller was obsessed with it and your carnegate was obsessed with it if you can have everything material in the world you're still gonna have desire and ordinary people can sit around and dream and say one day I'm gonna have the mansion we're not even a mansion one day I'm gonna have a house of my own I'm gonna have a car I'm gonna send my kids to college everybody wants to dream so if all that is a given you have all the money you could ever spend you still want to dream so what do you dream about your dream about immortality and so I think that's that's been the case for a very long period of time

健康就像是那种最后的、难以捉摸的东西，大体上你无法通过购买来获得，这常常让人感到困扰。这也是为什么，如果你可以通过打个响指就得到世上的任何东西，你最终会追求那些你没有的东西，比如永生。我认为，这种追求自古以来就存在，比如大亨们，像约翰·D·洛克菲勒（John D. Rockefeller）和安德鲁·卡内基（Andrew Carnegie）都对此非常执着。如果你已经拥有世上一切物质财富，你仍然会有渴望。普通人可能会梦想着有一天能拥有一栋大房子，或者更实际点，拥有自己的房子、车子，能送孩子上大学，每个人都有自己的梦想。所以，即便你拥有了可以用不完的钱，你还是会去追寻梦想。那么，你会梦想什么呢？你会梦想永生。所以，我认为这种追求已经持续了很长时间。

What's interesting too is that there was a there was a historian who looked back at the british peerage he got a lot of data on how long people lived in in various points of the UK economy and what he found was until about I think it was 1750 the richest members of the UK had among the shortest lives the poorest people were some of them who were living the longest and he dug into it so how could this be the richest people die the fastest and what he found is the richest people were the only ones who could afford all the quack medicines and the sham doctors who were just poisoning them they're poisoning them to the back in the day when we knew nothing about medicine so I think the idea of

有趣的是，有一位历史学家研究了英国贵族的历史，他收集了大量关于英国各经济时期人们寿命的数据。他发现，直到大约1750年，英国最富有的人群的寿命往往是最短的，而一些最贫穷的人却是寿命最长的。他深入研究了这个现象，想知道为什么最富有的人反而死得更快。他发现，最富有的人是唯一能负担得起那些江湖医生和假药的人，而这些医生和药物实际上是在毒害他们。那时候，人们对医学几乎一无所知。

of I want a better life and I should be able to buy that like there's a long history of that backfiring on people as well yeah there's a lot of excitement right now about stem cells and treatments that currently are not available in the United States that are are available out of country and I get asked about these a lot most of them don't have FDA approval yet some of them probably never will have FDA approval we'll probably talk about stem cells another time do you think you see this though where the wealthiest people are spending money on treatments that you either know are not going to work or are very questionable yeah work all the time and then my backfire on you that might make you less healthy oh absolutely I mean I'll just point out

我想要更好的生活，我觉得我应该可以买到这样的生活，但历史上有很多这样的情况最终对人们来说并不如意。现在有很多人对干细胞和一些目前在美国尚不可用但在国外可以获得的治疗感到兴奋，我经常被问到这些问题。大多数这些治疗还没有得到FDA的批准，有些可能永远都得不到批准。我们可能会在其他时候讨论干细胞。你有没有注意到这种现象：一些最富有的人正在花钱在一些你知道无效或非常可疑的治疗上？是的，我经常看到这种情况，而这些治疗可能会适得其反，让你的健康变得更糟。哦，绝对是这样，我只是想指出这一点。

I don't have anything against stem cell therapies I think they hold great potential but there is a true story about a stem cell clinic down in Florida prior to the FDA you know bringing the gavel down on them of injecting stem cells into the eyes of wealthy people who could afford the treatment these people had certain markers for macular degeneration and other things that can cause blindness and guess what happened to these people they all went blind right so that brought the gavel down on stem cell therapies generally in this country a lot of people are getting infusions of stem cells and related things out of country they're coming back and they're walking and talking so and they're calling me and they're asking what my thoughts are and I have a lot of thoughts I mean I think that the basics of longevity are clear right I mean you want to avoid you know head trauma and environmental toxins those things are real and and if you have certain mutations like brachamutations you know you need to be more careful about cancer and avoid smoking all this stuff right alcohol turns out to be pro-cancerous and things of that sort but then it's you know it's physical activity it's nutrition it's social connection it's sleep it's sunlight is you know it's all the things that I've talked about in this podcast and that other people talk about as well but yes very wealthy people are looking for that edge to live longer and it is true that when you start to layer in all the basics of do's and don'ts all the behaviors and then you start to augment that with a few extra things you get the sense of more vigor that sort of suggests they may live longer but we still don't know right we still don't know with the exception of exercise that we absolutely know can enrich mitochondrial density give people more energy and vigor etc you know most most of this is still a big question mark

我对干细胞疗法没有任何反对的意见，我认为它们具有巨大的潜力。不过，有一个真实的故事，讲的是在FDA出手之前，佛罗里达的一家干细胞诊所为那些能负担得起治疗费用的富人眼中注射干细胞。这些人有某些与黄斑变性相关的标志物，以及其他可能导致失明的疾病。结果，你猜怎么着？他们全都失明了。这件事让整个国家对干细胞疗法的态度发生了变化。许多人选择去国外接受干细胞注射，回来后他们能够行走和交谈，然后他们联系我，询问我的看法。我有很多想法，比如长寿的基本原则是很明确的。你需要避免头部创伤和环境毒素，如果你携带某些突变如BRCA突变，就要更加小心癌症，避免吸烟之类的，事实证明酒精对癌症有促进作用。还有身体活动、营养、社交联系、睡眠、阳光，这些都是我在播客中提到过的内容，也有其他人谈论过的。但是，确实有些富人想寻找能够让他们活得更久的优势。确实，当你开始把所有这些基本的生活习惯结合起来，并加入一些额外的东西时，感觉会更有活力，似乎可能会活得更久，但我们仍不确定。除了运动，我们绝对知道运动可以增强线粒体密度，给予人们更多的能量和活力，其他大多数的方面仍然是一个问号。

see I could see a very wealthy person using their money if you are very sick and you have a rare cancer to throw the kitchen sink at it every excellent those those million-dollar therapies will not absolutely I think it's a different animal if you are already pretty healthy to say I'm going to throw my money at trying to become immortal or close to it whatever it might be that's that's that's a different thing I totally agree and I think what we're talking about here is as you said it fairly quickly but I think I want to highlight it because I think it's really important that even people who have billions of dollars still have a sense of of yearning for something that's missing or that they don't have and in some cases that's the sustaining factor to their well-being you say it's also good to be in pursuit right maybe that's with dopamine too right we always want more it's it's the pursuit of more and if you're wealthy enough to have everything you still have a set a part of your brain say yeah but I want more I want more I want more and if you've exhausted the physical part of the world that material part of the world and let's leave aside the billionaires even the average ordinary American family that owns a modest house owns a car that functions well owns nice clothes will send their kids to a state school by a lot of historical definitions they have everything they have everything you would ever need but you're always yearning for more it's always this pursuit of well what else don't I have

我能想象一个非常富有的人，如果他们重病，得了一种罕见的癌症，会不惜一切代价治疗，即便是那些昂贵到百万美元的疗法也在所不惜。这种情况和本身很健康却想砸钱追求长生不老或者接近长生不老的人完全不同。我完全同意，你提到的这一点很重要，即便是亿万富翁，仍然会感到有缺失的部分，这种缺失感甚至是他们生活的动力源泉之一。追求更多的东西也是一种常态，甚至与多巴胺有关。我们总是想要更多，总是在追求更多，即使已经拥有一切的富人，脑海中仍会有声音说："我还想要更多，更多，更多。"即使是拥有一套普通住宅、一辆不错的车、不错的衣服，并能送孩子上公立学校的普通美国家庭，从很多历史标准来看，他们什么都有了，但他们还是总在渴求更多，总在问："我还缺少什么？"

and I think nothing you what you want more than anything in life is what you want and cannot have that's what you're going to chase with all of your effort is the thing that you want and cannot have and I think that that that's where health comes in for a lot of these people as long as you think that there's a possibility you could get it the the dopamine circuit loves you want what you feel is just out of your reach but might be possible to achieve I mean this is why people throw so much money away gambling but maybe with social media it makes it seem so that there are virtually anything is within your reach because it used to be before social media that your view of the world was mostly your neighbors and your coworkers and your siblings and now everybody's view of the world is a curated highlight real of the most extreme events in the world so if you are a 15 year old scrolling through instagram then what is within your reach what looks within your reach is a Ferrari and a private jet and a mansion in a way that didn't exist when you and I were kids and I think it it makes the aspiration level that much harder and real examples of people who went from nothing to immensely popular or wealthy etc I mean gosh I would say about once a month somebody walks right up to me and says just watch someday I'm gonna have the top podcast in the world on blank and they're trying to see this thing that they've seen on social media which are examples of people you know kind of you used to be called rags to riches but you know the parallels in different universes but there's a famous musician I think his name is Ed Sheeran who there's still a video of him early on saying like he knew he was gonna make it if you watch the Conor McGregor documentary it's amazing I think it's called notorious on Netflix even if people aren't into to MMA they should they should at least watch the first part he was videotaping himself very early on and he made this prediction that he was gonna be a world champion and then he ends up being a world champion right um this is great anecdote that Kanye West used to practice his Grammy speech when he was walking to the train because he couldn't afford the car like when he was an absolute nobody he was practicing his Grammy acceptance speech of just like absolute ambition of where you're going

我认为，在生活中你最想要的东西，往往是你无法拥有的。这正是你会全力追求的目标——那些你想要但无法得到的东西。我觉得，对许多人来说，这就是心理健康面临的挑战。只要你认为有可能得到它，多巴胺回路就会让你对那些感觉触手可及但又难以达到的东西充满渴望。这也是为什么人们愿意在赌博上花费大量金钱。 也许与社交媒体的普及有关，它让人觉得几乎任何东西都触手可及。以前，在社交媒体出现之前，你对世界的认知主要局限在你的邻居、同事和兄弟姐妹之中。而现在，每个人看到的世界都是经过精选的全球最极端案例的集锦。所以，如果你是一个 15 岁的青少年，浏览 Instagram，那么在你眼中似乎触手可及的就是法拉利、私人飞机和豪宅，这在我们那个年代是不存在的。我认为，这也使得人们的理想水平更加难以达到。 社交媒体上有许多真实的例子展示了那些从无到有、从默默无闻到极度受欢迎或富有的人。我每个月大概都会遇到有人走到我面前说，他们某一天会在某个领域拥有全球最顶尖的播客。这是他们在社交媒体上看到的例子，类似于从穷小子变成富人的励志故事，但在不同的领域和背景下。 比如有位著名音乐家艾德·希兰，早期的视频中他表示自己知道自己会成功。如果你看康纳·麦格雷戈的纪录片，非常惊人。我想它叫《不为人知》（Notorious），在 Netflix 上，即便你对 MMA 不感兴趣，也应该至少看看开头部分。他很早就开始自拍视频并预测自己会成为世界冠军，结果他真的做到了。 还有个很好的例子，坎耶·韦斯特曾在坐火车时练习他的格莱美颁奖致辞，因为他当时根本买不起车。在他还籍籍无名时，他已经在为自己设定宏伟目标并为之努力。

yeah and I don't know if this anecdote is true but there's the the anecdote that I heard that you know Matt Damon and um Ben Affleck practicing their Academy Awards acceptance speech on the school in the schoolyard when they were kids and then they gave their speech and they were you know laughing about that I grew up skateboarding so the when I first got into it the Tony Hawks and the Mike McGills and Steve Caballero's these were the names of the time where like these these luminaries right

好的，我不确定这个轶事是否属实，但我听说过这样一个故事：马特·达蒙和本·阿弗莱克小时候在学校的操场上练习他们的奥斯卡获奖感言。后来，他们真的站在领奖台上发表获奖感言，并为此感到很高兴。我小时候玩滑板，刚开始的时候，托尼·霍克、迈克·麦吉尔和史蒂夫·卡巴莱罗这些名字就是当时的传奇人物。

the gap between us and them was so huge by the time I was a junior in high school my best friend at the time Paul Zuwan it sent in a videotape of himself to a company called Planet Earth he got sponsored next thing you know we're in the shop watching him skateboard and within a year or two he had his own pro model yeah so you I think social media gives us not just a sense of what's out there but it gives us very salient examples of people that went from completely unknown to extremely known just this last year there's the you know the so-called hawk to a girl you know it's interviewed outside of bars and like she now has a very popular podcast she has sponsors she's known literally became one of the most famous people in the country right

我在高中的时候，我们与他们之间的差距已经很大。我当时最好的朋友保罗·祖万给一家叫做“地球行星”的公司寄了一段自己的视频，结果得到了赞助。没过多久，我们就在店里看他滑板。一两年后，他就有了自己的职业滑板型号。我觉得社交媒体不仅让我们了解到外面的世界，还给了我们非常明显的例子，说明有人可以从默默无闻到家喻户晓。就在去年，有个被称为"鹰"的女孩，她在酒吧外接受采访，如今她有一个非常受欢迎的播客，有赞助商，成为了全国最有名的人之一。

and and it has a financial stream now of of income through her podcast and so this raises the the sort of idea in people's minds or that the possibility however remote that if somebody puts a camera in front of you by virtue of one thing that you say you could suddenly be a internationally known person and potentially go from quote unquote rags to riches if you look at the studies when you ask teenagers what is your preferred career what do you want to be when you grow up it used to be astronaut used to be doctor used to be entrepreneur now it's influencer by far that's what people want to be it seems like the quickest path to fame and wealth and for a lot of people it is

她现在通过播客有了一条收入来源，这让人们开始想到一种可能性，哪怕这种可能性很小：如果有人在你面前放一个摄像头，凭你的一句话，你可能会突然成为一个国际知名人物，并有可能从“赤贫”一跃成为富翁。如果你查看相关研究，会发现当你问青少年他们理想的职业是什么、长大后想成为什么时，过去他们的答案可能是宇航员、医生或企业家，但现在影响者是最受欢迎的选择。对很多人来说，这似乎是成名和致富的最快途径，而对许多人来说，确实如此。

my sister-in-law is a kindergarten teacher she has a girl in her class who has over a million followers on youtube as a kindergartener like that that didn't exist when you and i were kids or it was so rare but now like like enough people know stories like that even if there are a few of them enough people know stories to give you the sense of hope of like well if they could do it i could do it too well i'll tell everyone out there that um if you think that uh fame is what you want um fame restricts your freedom it does not increase your freedom there's a great quote from devol where he says which you want to be is rich and anonymous that's a sweet spot that you want to be the opposite you are poor and famous uh and that's that's the hardest spot to be in but if you can be rich and anonymous because i think there's a really important concept with money that i call social debt which is when the money that you have influences it changes how other people think of you and even maybe maybe how you think about yourself and you can measure your asset it's not it's not actually debt like it's not like debt you repay the bank but it is very much a debt in terms of it is an anchor on your happiness that you have to repay and fame is the ultimate social debt and for a lot of people there social debt of fame is more than the money that they made from whatever made them famous to begin with

我的嫂子是一名幼儿园老师，她班上有个女孩，年纪轻轻就已经在YouTube上拥有超过一百万的粉丝。像这样的情况在我们小时候是不存在的，或者非常罕见，但现在这种故事已足够多，让人感到有希望，觉得如果别人能做到，我也能做到。不过，我想告诉大家，如果你认为成名是你想要的，名声其实会限制你的自由，而不是增加它。德沃尔有一句名言：“你想要的是富有且匿名。”这是你想要达到的理想状态。相反，如果你又穷又出名，那是最艰难的处境。 我认为关于金钱有一个重要的概念，我称之为"社会债"。即你的财富会改变别人对你的看法，甚至可能改变你对自己的看法。你可以评估你的资产，这并不是像银行债务那样的债务，但它在某种程度上是一种需要你"偿还"的负担，会影响你的幸福。而名声是最终的社会债，对许多人来说，他们因为成名而产生的社会债甚至超过了因此获得的财富。

and there's this anecdote from tiger woods where he said he loves scuba diving because when he's 100 feet under the ocean is the only time in the world where people aren't taking pictures of him and asking things of him and gawking at him like that's that sucks that's not that you have a lot of sympathy for somebody like that but it does suck like you can measure his net worth very quickly what's your net worth just show me the number how do you measure the liability of feeling like you have no privacy unless you are scuba diving that's a that's a hard thing and at various levels a lot of people have that even if you are earn a modest income and all of a sudden your friends your family start saying hey i can you know i heard you got a raise i could i could use a little bit myself that's a social debt they want you to pay at dinner and whatnot and for maybe you're happy to do that you're happy to share it but let's not pretend that there's not a little bit of social debt and liability that comes with every added amount of income that you have i mean so much of social media is just by definition in terms of the the number of followers being displayed etc number of likes and comments being displayed is is designed to set up these metrics of comparison

泰格·伍兹曾分享过一个小故事，他说他喜欢潜水，因为在海底100英尺深的地方，没人给他拍照，也没人向他提要求或投以好奇的目光。虽然这种情况听起来不太同情一个似乎拥有一切的人，但确实很糟糕。尽管可以轻松查到他的净资产，但他觉得只有在潜水时才有隐私，这种困扰是无法简单用数字来衡量的。许多人在不同程度上都有这样的烦恼。即便你的收入不高，一旦收入有了点变化，朋友或家人就可能开始向你要求帮助，比如说"我听说你加薪了，能不能借点钱给我"。这是一种社交负担，也许你愿意帮助他们，但不能否认，每一分钱的增加都可能带来一些社交负债和责任。社交媒体本身，通过展示粉丝数、点赞数和评论数，实际上就是为这些比较参数设定的。

yeah the smartest minds of the generation work at facebook and instagram and twitter to figure out how to give you fomo how to generate a little bit more dopamine and they're very good at it i'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors function i recently became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing while i've long been a fan of blood testing i really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood urine and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health my hormone status my immune system regulation my metabolic function my vitamin and mineral status and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality function not only provides testing of over a hundred biomarkers key to physical and mental health but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from talk doctors on your results for example in one of my first tests with function i learned that i had two high levels of mercury in my blood this was totally surprising to me i had no idea prior to taking the test function not only helped me detect this but offered medical doctor informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels which included limiting my tuna consumption because i'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with nak and acetyl cysteine both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health and while i've been doing it for years i've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive i've been so impressed by function both at the level of ease of use that is getting the test done as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are that i recently joined their advisory board and i'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast if you'd like to try function go to function health dot com slash huberman function currently has a wait list of over 250 000 people but they're offering early access to huberman lab listeners again that's function health dot com slash huberman to get early access to function

这代最聪明的人才在Facebook、Instagram和Twitter工作，他们专注于研究如何让你感到错失恐惧症（FOMO），如何制造更多的多巴胺。他们对此非常擅长。我想快速感谢一下我们的赞助商——Function。 我最近成为了Function的会员，因为我一直在寻找最全面的实验室检测方法。虽然我一直是血液检测的爱好者，但我希望找到一个更深入的项目来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康、激素状况、免疫系统调节、代谢功能、维生素和矿物质状况以及其他与整体健康和活力相关的重要领域。 Function不仅提供对超过一百个生物标志物的测试，这些标志物对身体和心理健康至关重要，而且还分析这些结果，并从医生那里提供对结果的见解。例如，在我第一次使用Function的检测中，我发现我血液中的汞含量过高，这让我非常惊讶。此前我对此毫无头绪。Function不仅帮助我检测到这一点，还提供了由医学医生提供的关于如何最佳降低汞含量的建议，其中包括限制金枪鱼的摄入，因为我吃了很多金枪鱼，同时努力多吃绿叶蔬菜，并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸，这些都可以支持谷胱甘肽的生成和排毒，最终帮助降低了我的汞含量。 像这样的全面实验室检测对健康非常重要，而我多年来一直在进行这种检测，以前总觉得过于复杂和昂贵。我对Function的印象非常深刻，不仅在于使用简单，检查也很全面，而且结果也非常有实用性。最近，我还加入了他们的顾问委员会，很高兴他们赞助这个播客。 如果你希望尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。目前，Function有超过250,000人的等待名单，但他们为Huberman Lab的听众提供了提前接入的机会。再次提醒，访问functionhealth.com/huberman获得提前接入。

One thing that um I wish somebody would do maybe it's been done is you mentioned earlier this uh not typical but I guess semi-common thing of an article will come out and say you know that the five things that um people say on their deathbed or that they and they look back and they mentioned that they wish they'd spent less time at work they wish they'd spend more time with their kids or more time in nature perhaps has anyone ever just asked people directly um what were the things that they are most proud of or the things that they really feel brought them tremendous meaning then and as they're passing away uh because it's it's it's related but it's kind of the inverse of the same question yeah warm buffet brought this up one time he said a good way to think about life is it's it's kind of grim but he said write what you want your obituary to say and then work backwards to live up to it and in that situation if you were to write like what do you want your obituary to say most people would say oh i i hope it says morgan was a good father he was a good husband he helped his community he was admired by his co-workers that's what i wanted to say and for a lot of people it's different for everyone but it would be something like that and why buffet said it was important is because nobody who's writing their preferred obituary would say uh would uh include the size of their house how many horsepower their their car had how nice their clothes were because everybody knows it doesn't matter and it's like uh i forget who made this idea there's a thing between resume virtues and eulogy virtues that was uh david brooks said that thank you resume virtues are you know how much money you make uh your degrees everything eulogy virtues is he was a great father he was a great friend he helped his community he was funny and i think most people really aspire to have eulogy virtues but they spend all their day chasing resume virtues resume virtues can be great i want a good education i want a good income but what you're really trying to chase is to use those things to gain more resume virtues at the end of the day so i think if you think about it through that lens a lot of these things become clear and that's why like i said going on a great vacation with my kids if that's a 10 what's really fun about that is is spending time with them when i'm detached from work i'm not checking my phone every seven seconds i'm just spending hours with my kids giving them my full attention that's what made me happy the view was great on the beach cool but that's what made me happy and i can do that at home can i and so that's that's the difference between like going to maui is a resume virtue spending time with your kids is the eulogy virtue

有一件事，我希望有人去做，也许已经有人做过，就是你之前提到过的那种不太常见但也算半常见的情况。比如有文章说出，人们在临终时会说的五件事情，反思过去时提到希望自己能少花些时间在工作上，希望能多陪陪孩子或者在大自然中度过更多时间。那么，有没有人直接问过人们，他们最自豪的事情或给予他们极大意义的事情是什么，尤其是在临终时回顾一生时？这与之前的问题相关，但又有些相反的角度。 沃伦·巴菲特曾提到过一个看待生活的好方法，他承认这有些严肃，但他建议写下你希望讣告中提到的内容，然后倒推去努力实现它。在这种情况下，如果你要写下希望讣告中说些什么，大多数人会希望它说，比如“摩根是个好父亲，是个好丈夫，他帮助了社区，受同事们的钦佩。”这是大多数人的愿望，尽管每个人的愿望可能不同。 为什么巴菲特认为这很重要呢？因为没有人在构思理想的讣告时会提到房子的大小、汽车的马力或者衣着的华丽，因为每个人都知道这些并不重要。这里提到了简历美德和悼词美德的区别，是大卫·布鲁克斯提出来的。简历美德是指你的收入多少、学位等，而悼词美德是指“他是个好父亲，是个好朋友，他帮助了社区，他很幽默。”我认为大多数人都希望拥有悼词美德，但他们每天却在追求简历美德。简历美德当然也不错，比如追求良好的教育和收入，但最终你真正想要的是利用这些追求更多的悼词美德。 通过这样的视角思考，很多事情会变得更加清晰。这也是为什么我说，和孩子们一起度过一个美好的假期，如果将其评价为十分，那么其中真正愉悦的是，完全脱离工作，全身心投入与他们在一起，不每隔几秒就查看手机，而是投入几小时专注于孩子们。这让我开心，海滩的风景很棒，但这才是令我快乐的原因。我在家也可以做到，不是吗？所以这就是区别，去毛伊是简历美德，而花时间和孩子们在一起是悼词美德。

Why is it do you think that even though we've perhaps all heard by now that you know compounding interest is great right you put in let's say a smaller amount of money into even just a savings account that's accruing a couple percent you know it varies year by year and with the economy of course or into the markets that over time if you quote unquote set it and forget it just kind of like put it there and walk away that you're likely to make x percent over time and you can look at the plot you can you can look at that line upward into the right it almost always is jagged line drifting upward to the right and even just scroll over and see okay at age whatever i'm going to have x number of dollars and that value is often very high relative to where one's current wealth is even if they're a student or they have very little put away we all hear this we can see it you can run the models it's almost trivial and yet people don't do that even if they have the income to save is it that hard for us to project our emotional state and the sorts of things that we integrate in terms of life meaning and value into the future that most people just don't do that and why do you think that is i mean i'm not asking you to play neurobiologist here i mean i think we both agree that that time perception is a complicated thing but you would think that people would just sort of get it but we're not rational most people aren't rational in that way they don't say if they don't invest and they don't compound interest and so they end up with a lot less money than they could have and a lot more regret.

为什么，即使我们大概都已经听说过复利是个好东西，比如你把一小笔钱放入一个储蓄账户，虽然每年的利率和经济状况可能会变化，但逐年积累下来，或者投资到市场中，随着时间的推移，如果你“放在那里不管”就很可能获取一定的收益。如果看图表，线几乎总是呈现向右上方的锯齿状上升趋势，并且你可以看到，在某个年龄你可能会有多少财富，而这个数额通常远高于你当前的财产，即使你现在还在上学或者存的钱很少。我们都听说过这些，也能看到它，甚至可以运行模型来证明，这几乎是显而易见的。但即便人们有收入去储蓄，大多数人还是没有这样做。是不是因为我们很难预见自己的情感状态以及在未来生活中所追求的意义和价值呢？为什么会这样呢？我不是想让你在这里扮演神经生物学家的角色，我想我们都同意时间感知是个复杂的问题。但你会认为，人们应该能明白这个道理，可大多数人并不像那样理性。他们不投资，也不利用复利，结果钱比能有的少了很多，遗憾倒多了不少。

yeah i think there's two ways to think about this one is uh my friend michael baton i could uh phrased it this way he said if i ask you what is eight plus eight plus eight plus eight you figure that out in five seconds that's an easy one if i said what is eight times eight times eight times eight times eight even if you're a math nerd that's it's it's too hard you can't figure it out we're not wired for exponential thinking you just can't do it and therefore a lot of even if you show you the numbers hey invest a small amount retire with a million dollars i think it's so counterintuitive and that most people see that and you're like okay that doesn't doesn't really seem right doesn't really pass a sniff test how big the numbers can get how quickly the numbers can get big the other thing is if you tell a young person hey you have 50 years in front of you to invest that's great times on your side when you're when you're 70 years old you're gonna have 10 million dollars 50 years from now might as well be 10,000 years from now you're talking about people who are new who don't know what they're gonna eat for dinner tonight and you're talking about like hey let's let's talk about the year 2077 like it's so far out of there even if that's the right way to think about it it's it's a tough way to think about it and time perception you mentioned is so difficult for people if i said you're gonna get punched in the face in 10 seconds like that's a fear and you're like oh i don't but if i said someone's gonna punch you in the face 50 years from now i'm like i'll deal with it when i get there it's so easy to put out a side out of mind and so and the other thing is Warren Buffett talked about this a lot he said actually it was Charlie Munger who said this he said when teaching finance to young people people either understand it instantly or never it's like some people are just wired to get it and some people aren't and that's always been the case Munger and Ois often said all the time he said the iron rule of math is only 1% of people can end up in the top 1% and that's why for a lot of people yes you should save and invest for 50 years let's not pretend that that is easy or that everybody is psychologically able to do it some people are wired definitely of course that's the case as they are with health and intelligence and lots of other things.

我认为我们可以从两个角度来看待这个问题。第一种是我朋友迈克尔·巴顿曾这么说过的，他举了个例子：如果我问你8加8加8加8是多少，你可以在五秒钟内算出来，这很简单。但如果我问你8乘8乘8乘8，你即使是数学高手也可能觉得困难，因为我们的大脑不善于进行指数式思维，无法轻易解决这个问题。因此，即使有人告诉你，只需投资一小笔钱就能退休时拥有百万美元，大多数人还是觉得不太相信，因为这看起来不合理。在大多数人眼中，那些巨额的数字增长得如此之快，让人难以置信。 另外，如果你告诉一个年轻人：“你有50年的时间去投资，这是很好的机会。当你70岁时，你会有1000万美元。”在年轻人看来，50年后可能和1万年后的事情一样遥远。你在和那些连今晚吃什么都不确定的人谈论2077年的事情，虽然从理论上说这是合理的想法，但很难让人接受。你提到的时间感知对人来说确实很难把握。如果我告诉你10秒后会有人打你一拳，你会心生恐惧；但如果我说有人会在50年后打你一拳，你可能会觉得“等到那时候再说吧”。这种事情很容易被置之不理。 沃伦·巴菲特也经常讨论这个问题，其实是查理·芒格说的，他说在给年轻人教授金融知识时，有些人能够立刻理解，而有些人永远不会懂。有些人的思维方式就是能领悟到这些，而有些人则不然，这种情况一直存在。芒格常说，数学的铁律是只有1%的人能处于前1%，所以对很多人来说，虽然应该储蓄和投资50年，但这并不容易，也不是每个人都能心理上做到。有些人确实天生适合，就像他们在健康、智力和许多其他方面得天独厚一样。

so i do think there's a thing for financial education with getting people to understand what is possible but i don't think we'll ever live in a world where everyone gets it and does it i don't think that world has never existed and i think will never exist because it's not math it's not a spreadsheet it's behavior and we now live in a world where we understand the dangers of smoking and highly processed foods and whatever it might be but even if we know it people still do it because it's behavioral it's not intelligence so showing people the numbers and getting them to do it is night and day do you know how they got people to stop smoking in particular young people it wasn't by scaring them about their health turns out the most effective campaign to get especially young people to stop smoking was to hijack the inherent rebellion of youth and to display ads of wealthy older people in rooms full of smoke so it became a us as the youth rebelling against them the older generation that are trying to take our money had. nothing to do with health i love that and it absolutely worked yeah and uh i friends that work on this sort of thing in the context of public health as it relates to all sorts of public health initiatives and the effective way to change human behavior as it relates to health is to incentivize aesthetics to incentivize fear or to hijack fear of dying but even fear of dying is not sufficient as compared to hijacking these cross-generational let's just call them frictions that exist so i found that to be interesting

我确实认为金融教育在帮助人们了解可能性方面很重要，但我不认为我们会生活在一个所有人都了解并践行它的世界。这样的世界从未存在过，而且我认为也永远不会存在。因为这不是数学，也不是电子表格，而是行为。我们生活在一个知道吸烟和食用高加工食品等风险的世界，但即使我们知道，人们仍然会这么做，因为这是行为问题，而不是智力问题。因此，仅仅向人们展示数字并促使他们执行，是完全不同的事情。你知道他们是如何让人们尤其是年轻人停止吸烟的吗？ 这并不是通过吓唬他们的健康。事实证明，使年轻人停止吸烟的最有效的活动是利用年轻人天生的叛逆，让他们看到富有的老年人在满是烟雾的房间里，这样年轻人就会反感这些想要拿走他们的钱的老一代，与健康无关。我喜欢这个方法，它确实奏效了。我有一些朋友从事公共卫生方面的工作，他们发现有效改变与健康有关的人类行为的方法是激励美学、激励恐惧或劫持对死亡的恐惧，但即使是死亡的恐惧也不如劫持这些跨代摩擦有效，因此我认为这很有趣。

used a math example of eight plus eight plus eight versus eight times eight times eight times eight and you said that that human brain is not capable of exponential thinking or most people's brains are not capable of exponential thinking i think um you either intentionally or inadvertently hit on something really important i don't know that the dopamine reward system which is the fundamental currency of pursuit and reward across all time scales it's kind of wild right one neuromodulator and there other things involved that modulate that modulator but one neuromodulator is involved in reward pursuit across all time scales whether or not we're playing let's say we're both competitive enough to play a game of chess or checkers dopamine is motivating the pursuit for the win or a four-year degree or an eight-year degree or why you would want maybe your kids to win a soccer game like now you're like a third-personing dopamine right it's across all time scales all scenarios it's incredible and across many species

这个数学例子中，用了“8 + 8 + 8”与“8 × 8 × 8 × 8”来对比，并指出人类的大脑、或说大多数人的大脑，都不太适合进行指数思维。我觉得你无意中或有意中提到了一个非常重要的点。我们的多巴胺奖励系统是驱动追求和奖励的重要机制，这种机制在所有时间尺度上都保持一致。这真是太神奇了！一个神经递质，多巴胺，参与到所有时间尺度下的奖励追求中。无论我们是在下棋（不论是国际象棋还是跳棋），多巴胺会激励我们去赢得比赛；或者我们在攻读一个四年的学位或是八年的学位，甚至你可能希望你的孩子赢得一场足球比赛——这时候你的多巴胺奖励系统就像是“第三方代理”，在所有时间尺度、所有情境下发挥作用，跨越物种。这真的很不可思议。

so it makes me wonder and i'll have to ask some of my colleagues that work on these dopamine reward schedules uh for a living whether or not the dopamine reward system actually can do exponential math it might not be able to do exponential math it might be that the pursuit of water the pursuit of mates the pursuit of food the pursuit of shelter which is what these dopamine circuits evolved under the constraints of whether or not they are even capable of doing exponential thinking or if it's like the marshmallow test which got misconstrued in many ways but it's like yeah would would you rather have one right now or two in the future it's i think for a lot of people it's it's just like there there are some people for whom like they're wired so differently for this so you hear stories about like the old the old very wealthy people the old billionaires of them when they were 20 years old they would not get a haircut because they knew that three-dollar haircut would compound into a hundred dollars by time they're older

这让我很好奇，我需要问问那些专门研究多巴胺奖励机制的同事，看看多巴胺奖励系统能否进行指数计算。可能它无法进行指数计算，因为这些多巴胺回路是在追求水、伴侣、食物和住所的压力下进化而来的，并不一定能进行指数思考。这有点像被误解许多次的棉花糖实验：你是愿意现在吃一个，还是以后吃两个？我觉得对于很多人来说，他们的大脑回路可能对这个问题的反应非常不同。听说过一些关于那些非常富有的老富翁或亿万富翁的故事，他们在20岁时可能连理发都不愿意，因为他们知道那三美元的理发费可以随着时间增值成一百美元。

they were just so wired from birth to understand this and to have a very long perception of time to do it by definition that's the rarity most people are not like that and i i don't know if they should be either i don't know if you should be the kind of person your entire life who is always saving for a future and and never enjoying what you have too like that could lead to a lot of regret as well and there are those people so let's parse the marshmallow test the marshmallow test i think initially done at stanford um i think it was a being nursery school or something like that or maybe somewhere at stanford if i'm wrong someone will correct me in the comments of course for those that don't know is you they brought these really cute kids into rooms and they put the marshmallow in front of them and they told them they could eat it now or they could wait and they could get two marshmallows later and then they videotape them and the the videos are absolutely delightful of the kids you know like distracting themselves or having the marshmallows talk or taking little piece of the marshmallows i mean it reveals as much variation on human self-constraint behavior as you could possibly imagine and they're really interesting

他们天生就具备理解这一点的能力，并拥有非常长远的时间观念来做到这一点，这在本质上是非常少见的，大多数人并不是这样的。我也不确定人们是否应该像这样过一辈子，总是为了将来而储蓄，而不享受当下的生活，这样也可能会导致不少遗憾。确实有这样的人存在。 让我们来分析一下“棉花糖实验”。我认为这个实验最初是在斯坦福大学进行的，可能是在幼儿园里，或者是在斯坦福大学的某个地方。如果我说错了，肯定会有人在评论中纠正我。对于那些不知道的人来说，这个实验是这样的：他们把非常可爱的孩子们带到一个房间里，把一个棉花糖放在他们面前，并告诉他们现在就可以吃掉它，或者如果他们愿意等待一会儿，就能得到两个棉花糖。他们拍下了孩子们的反应，那些录像非常有趣，小朋友们会想方设法分散注意力，或者让棉花糖对话，甚至偷偷咬下一小口。从中可以看出人类自我约束行为的多样性，这是非常有趣的。

As you know I would like to know whether the children that were able to wait and therefore get two marshmallows were trying to resist the temptation or whether or not they were being pulled forward by the anticipation of two marshmallows. My understanding and maybe this is not complete but my understanding at least part of it was neither of those two things. The kids who did the best and resisted it were the ones who distracted themselves. They weren't even thinking about the marshmallow. They would sing a song, they would start playing with their shoes, they'd play with another kid. The ones who could not resist are the ones who just sat there staring at the one marshmallow that was tempting them. That's too hard to resist, almost everybody will resist that. It was like the environment that they put themselves in, but they weren't thinking into the future about how great it would be to have two marshmallows. I don't think so. I think they were they were so because their kids are so distracted. They have the memory of a goldfish. They they wanted they wanted to just go do something. They'd sing a song, they'd play with their shoes, they'd play their friends, and then by didn't of doing that all of a sudden they had waited long enough to get the two marshmallows. I think that was at least part of it and I think there's the truth for a lot of people too.

如您所知，我想了解一下，那些能坚持等待从而得到两个棉花糖的孩子，是在努力抵制诱惑，还是因为期待两个棉花糖而坚持下来的。我理解的，可能并不完整，但至少部分是这样的：他们并不是因为那两种原因中的任何一种。那些表现最好并抵制住诱惑的孩子，是因为他们分散了注意力，他们根本没有去想棉花糖。他们可能会唱歌、玩鞋子，或者和其他小朋友一起玩。而那些无法抵制诱惑的孩子则是一直盯着那个诱人的棉花糖，那真的太难抵制了，几乎所有人都会抵挡不住。就像是他们给自己营造了一个环境，但他们并没有在想着未来得到两个棉花糖会多么美好。我不这么认为。我认为这些孩子能够坚持下来的原因是因为他们容易分心，他们的记忆就像金鱼一样短暂。他们只是想去做别的事情，比如唱歌、玩鞋子或者和朋友玩，结果不知不觉中，他们等待的时间已经足够长了，可以得到两个棉花糖。我认为至少部分原因是这样的，而且我认为这对很多人来说也是事实。

Take about think about the stock market where uh so much temptation to always watch it and see what it's doing because we have CNBC and there's the ticker and the lights are green and red and whatnot. For a lot of people it's impossible to watch that or even worse robin hood you get a push notification on your phone that's too hard to resist. But you know where you see very good investing behavior where people do a really good job is when you invest automatically every paycheck into your 401k and you forgot your password because that environment is is against temptation there's there's nothing to do you forgot your password but if you're just bombarding yourself with stimulus of what to do most people cannot resist that. My way of dealing with social media i would say compulsion not addiction is I now one could take an old phone um i actually gotten a phone specifically for social media so i have instagram and x on that phone. I don't even recall the number of that phone. I airdrop things onto it if i want to post, and i i do what uh rogan calls post and ghost yeah. so you post and then it goes into a box because otherwise I'm just absolutely blown away by how much time can be sucked away all of it. Um you tell yourself I'm gonna just look at social media for a moment and then you're pulled down some rabbit hole it's just incredible the way they've designed these algorithms to they get you and of course i like social media I teach on social media this conversation will probably be you know fragments of it will be on social media but um i think that people don't realize how compulsion inducing the dopamine circuitry is and once you start getting pulled down it you're you're a different organism altogether and uh you know it's not a coincidence that the people who have the largest social media accounts spend very little time on social media this is this is much it just gets overwhelming. Well you're spending time doing things like commenting and liking and and there's a liability to some of that but there's a reward to it too an immediate reward what you're not doing is going and doing the thing that you bring to social media that brings you more followers and views now so I always think of social media as uh the last point in a funnel where I go do things in real life like research papers talk to people um learn and then organize that learning into a format that I think people can benefit from and then put it on social media but that's the the end point. Yeah and so if I stay too long there um then I'm not getting more material it's almost like if if I were a farmer um you know this is like you know that once the crops ship you know I'm not gonna stand there just like looking at the road as the as the truck away field yeah you got to get back and plant more seeds and plow the field I mean that made it so I like to think about these things in these very basic terms because I feel that the dopamine circuitry hasn't evolved right but we have new new technologies that have hijacked it to some extent.

谈到股市，很多人都很容易受到诱惑，总想时时关注它的变化，因为我们有 CNBC，有实时股票信息，红绿的灯不停闪烁等等。对很多人来说，不去关注这些几乎是不可能的，甚至更糟的是，比如用 Robinhood 这类软件，你的手机会不断收到推送消息，让人难以抗拒。但是，你知道吗？在投资方面表现特别好的人，往往是在每次发工资时自动把钱投入 401k，并且忘记了账户密码，因为这样的环境能帮你抵御诱惑，你忘记了密码，没有事情可以去做。但如果你不停地让自己受到关于该做什么的刺激，大多数人都是无法抗拒的。 我应对社交媒体的方法，我称之为冲动而非上瘾，就是可以拿一个旧手机，我实际上买了一部专门用于社交媒体的手机，上面装有 Instagram 和 X。我甚至不记得这部手机的号码。如果我想发帖子，我会把东西空投到那部手机上，然后做像 Rogan 所说的“发完就走”，也就是发完之后就把手机放在一边，否则我会惊讶于能耗费掉多少时间。我们告诉自己只是看看社交媒体，结果被拖进各种话题里无法自拔。算法设计得太精妙了，它们真能抓住你。当然，我喜欢社交媒体，我在上面教学，这段对话的片段可能也会放到社交媒体上，但我认为人们没有意识到多巴胺回路是多么让人产生冲动。一旦你被它吸引，你就仿佛变成了另一个人。那些拥有最大社交媒体账号的人几乎不花时间在社交媒体上，这并不是巧合。这非常压倒性。你在上面花时间进行评论和点赞，这是有好处的，会有即时奖励，但你没有去做那些在现实中为社交媒体带来更多粉丝和浏览量的事情。 我总是把社交媒体看作是一个漏斗的最后一个环节，我会在现实中做事情，比如写研究论文，与人交谈，学习，然后把这些学习整理成一个我认为对人们有益的格式，最后发布到社交媒体上。但这是最后一步。所以如果我在那里花费太多时间，就无法获得更多的素材。就像一个农夫，一旦庄稼运走了，我不会就站在那里看着路，而是得回去种更多的种子，耕田。我喜欢用这些非常基本的术语来思考这些事情，因为我觉得多巴胺回路并没有进化，但我们有了新的技术，在某种程度上劫持了它。

Jerry Seinfeld said one of the reason he quit his show in the 1990s was because what made it so good and so funny is that he and Larry David would go like sit in a deli and watch people order and make a joke and sort of got their content from was observing the world but they got so busy and so famous that they couldn't do that anymore. He knew that it was going to come at the detriment of the show that it wasn't like the ultimate reward of like how big was the season how many people watch the show which money do we make what made them great was going out and living and doing their. thing and once it came at the expense of that it it didn't work anymore well this raises a really key point for people uh including myself which is in an ideal world one can make a living that is sufficient for their needs doing something that you truly enjoy doing or i would say to be realistic where 75 percent of the activities are pleasurable yeah maybe 15 percent are kind of neutral and then the remainder there's some punishing features there are punishing features in every profession yes jeffy as i said if you can enjoy half that's pretty good okay all right so i'm a little more stringent with my with my yeah more of an optimist than Bezos hey i don't

杰瑞·宋飞（Jerry Seinfeld）表示，他在1990年代辞去《宋飞正传》的原因之一是，因为这部剧之所以好看又搞笑，是因为他和拉里·戴维（Larry David）会坐在熟食店里观察人们点餐，然后以此为素材开玩笑，从观察生活中获得创作灵感。然而，随着他们变得越来越忙碌和出名，他们再也无法这样做了。他意识到，这会影响节目的质量，而节目成功的终极目标并不是看这一季有多成功、观众有多少、赚了多少钱，而是他们能够外出体验生活，并从中汲取灵感。一旦无法再做到这一点，节目就不再成功了。 这一点对于每个人，包括我自己，都是一个至关重要的提醒。在理想的世界里，一个人应该能够通过自己真正喜爱的事情来谋生，至少75%的工作内容是让人愉悦的，可能有15%的内容是中性的，其余的可能会有些棘手。在任何职业中，总会有些不太愉快的部分存在。如果你能享受一半的工作内容，那已经很不错了。 所以，我可能对自己要求更严格一些，而我也许比贝佐斯更乐观吧。

but then again he's Bezos um yeah where i mean you want to be able to enjoy your work not all aspects of it are are going to be pleasurable but ideally that's the case because what we're talking about here is effort that precedes dopamine yeah and i'm a big believer that dopamine that is not preceded by effort is very dangerous it's not just things that are addictive but by way of example methamphetamine cocaine dramatically and quickly spiked dopamine levels with no effort put in with no effort put in and then of course we know from the beautiful work of my colleague analemki and others that then the the dopamine profile is that then the higher the peak and the faster the rise to peak then the more drop below baseline and the more time it takes to return to baseline and typically what people do is when they're below baseline in terms of their dopamine that's when they really start hitting the hammer with whatever behavior or substance and all it does is drive that baseline further and further and further down maybe that's a good analogy for the lottery winner who gets a lot of money a lot of dopamine in this example but then put anything into it you didn't build a business you didn't work at your career you just got lucky so it doesn't feel as good there's no effort put into to like base it against compared against what you were talking about before which is time that's unstructured with your kids playing legos it's almost it sounds effortless it's not like you're like oh i gotta go play with my boys legos i'm sure that you're like yes like this is fun this is this is the good stuff as they say and so there are forms of reward it seems that are not preceded by effort although you had to raise those kids and you know your wife had to do stuff

再翻译成中文，重点是表达意思，尽量易读： 不过话说回来，他可是贝佐斯，是的，我的意思是，你希望能享受你的工作，虽然并不是所有的方面都是令人愉快的，但理想情况下应该是这样。我们在这里讨论的，是努力先于多巴胺带来的快乐。我坚信努力之后获得的多巴胺才是有益的，没有付出努力就获得多巴胺是非常危险的。比如说，甲基苯丙胺或可卡因会在没付出努力时迅速提升多巴胺水平。当然，我们从我的同事安娜·莱姆基等人的出色研究中了解到，高峰上升越快，下降就越低，恢复到基线的时间就越长。通常，当人们的多巴胺水平低于基线时，他们会拼命寻找刺激，而这样只会让基线降得更低。 这也许可以用作买彩票中奖的一个比喻。中了彩票的人瞬间获得很多钱，就像获得大量多巴胺，但他们没有为此付出努力，没有建立企业，也没有在事业上辛勤耕耘，只是运气好而已，所以可能不会感到那么开心。因此，没有任何与之前付出的努力相比所产生的对比感。 比如，与孩子一起玩乐高，这听起来没有什么努力可言。你不会觉得“哦，我还得去陪孩子玩乐高”，反而会觉得“这很有趣，这才是生活的真谛”。这种奖励形式似乎不需要付出那么多努力，虽然你还是需要为抚养孩子付出辛勤工作，你的妻子也有大量的工作要做。

yeah give birth to those kids and it's work but it but in terms of what's happening in in that limited time frame it's just so seamless right it's just sheer pleasure and yet that kind of pleasure is enriching is it this has me very perplexed as a biologist i still don't know the underlying mechanisms but clearly we have multiple paths to pleasure but i think we have only one path for motivation and that's dopamine but i think there are multiple forms of pleasure and i'm certain that dopamine that is high levels of dopamine that are not preceded by effort are not just bad they are downright dangerous i feel like so much of it too with parenting this is a slightly different topic but it's the things that you're not trying to have fun with that build the biggest memories and for me it's when i travel with my son he's nine so we go on a lot of trips now what's fun is not the event we're going to whether it's skiing or football game that's not the best part of the trip the best part of the trip is flying with him renting a car with him going out to dinner with him that's where you get all the memories it's like it's a process of doing it that's good that you're really enjoying that's going to build all the memories not necessarily the final destination where you're going yeah i just want to hover on that for a second because i can think of numerous examples in my life where the best parts of a relationship we're like a drive home with someone where like you know i'm asleep for part of the time they're asleep for part of the time and you get back and like you really you feel like you really did something there's something bonding about about traveling with people

生孩子是件辛苦的事，但在那有限的时间里，一切进行得如此顺利，是一种纯粹的快乐。这种快乐是令人充实的，作为生物学家，这让我很困惑，因为我仍然不清楚背后的机制。但显然，我们有多种获得快乐的途径，我认为我们只有一条获得动力的路径，那就是多巴胺。然而，有多种形式的快乐，我确信没有付出努力就获得高水平的多巴胺不仅不好，甚至是危险的。在养育孩子的过程中，有很多事情并不是刻意去享受的，但它们却创造了最深刻的记忆。对我来说，带着我九岁的儿子旅行就是这样。无论是去滑雪还是看足球比赛，这些活动本身并不是旅程中最精彩的部分。最美好的部分是和他一起坐飞机、租车、外出吃饭。这些过程让你获得了所有的记忆，而不仅仅是你要去的最终目的地。我想再强调一下这个，因为我想到了我生活中许多例子，一段关系中最美好的时刻是和某人一起坐车回家。那时你可能会有一段时间在睡觉，他们也有一段时间在睡觉，但回到家后，你真的感觉像完成了什么。与人一起旅行有一种特别的联结感。

yeah it's even in the absence of external input like you're you're just uh what is that it must be something fundamental some fundamental circuit about about journeying with with other members of our business going through a challenge with someone going through going through a journey of like we did this together we went through it together i think there's so much of that if you go on you go on a long hike with somebody at the top like you want to hug each other like we just did that together and it's not it's not even up being at the top it's like the journey you did with each other it's so cliche but i think it's true for a lot of things and what's that movie with the meal hirsch where he um it's a true story uh but the guy that goes out into the elaskan wilderness and lives on that bus and sadly he passes away there i just spoiled it for you um but he has i think it's called into the wild into the wild where he's obsessed with this notion of bonding with nature but then in his journal a real journal of a guy that really died out there um he gets to the realization that the the fundamental uh pursuit in life is to experience things with other people people absolutely yeah and this is why solitary confinement is such a torture

这段文字大意是说，即使没有外部刺激，人们仍然会被某种基本的倾向驱动，那就是与他人一同经历挑战或旅程。这种共同的经历让人们在面对困难或长途跋涉后感到亲密，好比登上一座山后，会想要拥抱彼此，因为一起经历了这一切。虽然这听起来像老生常谈，但的确适用于许多事情。 文章中提到一部电影《荒野生存》，主角（由埃米尔·赫斯基饰演）努力与大自然建立联系，最终在日记中意识到，生活中最根本的追求是与他人一起体验事情。这也是为什么单独监禁被视为一种折磨，因为它剥夺了人与人之间的互动和共同体验。

the extreme end of it brutal right brutal on the other end of the spectrum there's freedom so let's talk about freedom yeah it means different things to different people but certainly one does not want to be enslaved by anything including their own pursuit of work so they're i think at least two forms of anti-freedom one would be the type that exists within our head we have to continue on this track because i'm afraid of failure or i'm in pursuit of something and we are actually enslaved in a way that we uh sort of create for ourselves in the in the act of pursuit the other is the job where you know it's providing resources but we really don't need to be there and yeah people don't hop off the train yeah you know they could they could escape the the dreaded boss or the dreaded circumstance you know i remember a time when all i wanted was a window at work that opened for fresh air that's all i wanted i just i just wanted a window that opened i even tried to find one of these like little saws to saw that but then the maintenance people or the whatever the facilities people told me i'd get in trouble um we we yearn for freedom we hate we hate enslavement right for all the obvious reasons in your observation what is the best way to frame this need for freedom and i have to imagine that people listening are at various points along their their careers um what have you observed here in yourself and with other people you talk to yeah wealthy not wealthy what is freedom how do how do we get real freedom i think there's a there's an anecdote that i love which was from uh frickland roosevelt when he was a kid i think he was like five years old he complained to his mother one day he said my entire life is rules and schedules and i hate it so his mom said okay franky tomorrow you can do whatever you want do the day is yours anything you want and his mom sir roosevelt wrote in her diary that night he said that day that he could do anything he went back to his normal schedule he did everything on schedule like he was supposed to do but he was much happier because nobody was telling him to do it and i think that's what's true for a lot of people freedom does not mean you do nothing it doesn't necessarily mean you retire doesn't mean you quit working i want to be free and independent which means i want to wake up every morning and say i can do whatever the hell i want today even if most mornings what i want to do is work and be productive and put myself to use so i think a lot of people misconstrued freedom as i'm gonna i'm gonna ride off into the sunset and do nothing

这段文字谈到了极端的对立面：一端是残酷无情，另一端是自由。 自由对每个人来说都有不同的含义，但显然没有人愿意被任何东西束缚，包括对工作不懈的追求。在我看来，至少有两种形式的“非自由”：一种是我们头脑中的自我束缚，因为害怕失败或追求某个目标而让自己被无形枷锁束缚；另一种是工作本身，虽然提供了物质资源，但我们其实并不需要完全被其限制，很多人没有勇气跳出困境，逃离可怕的老板或环境。我记得曾经我最大的愿望就是办公室有一扇可以打开的窗户，让新鲜空气进来。我甚至尝试过用小锯子来锯开它，但维修人员警告我这样会有麻烦。我们渴望自由，厌恶束缚，原因显而易见。 在你看来，这种对自由的需求应该如何表达？我想听众的职业生涯可能处于不同阶段。无论是有钱人还是普通人，你观察到了什么？什么是自由？我们该如何获得真正的自由？ 我非常喜欢一个关于富兰克林·罗斯福小时候的小故事，他在大约五岁时抱怨过他的生活充满了规则和时间表，他讨厌这种生活。于是他母亲告诉他，第二天他可以随心所欲，他的一天将由自己安排。那天晚上，他的母亲在日记中写道，罗斯福那天遵循正常的时间表，也按计划做了所有事情，但他更开心了，因为没有人命令他这么做。 对于很多人来说，这说明了一个道理：自由不是无所事事，也不一定意味着退休或辞职。"我想要自由和独立"，意味着"我希望每天早上醒来都能选择自己想做的事情"，即便大多数时候我想要工作并充实自己。所以很多人误解了自由，认为自由就是悠闲度日、什么都不做。

Now it's like no i think people have an inherent drive to want to be productive and social and do things but there's a big difference between your boss telling you to do it and doing it on your own terms when i was a junior in college like a lot of young men i wanted to be an investment banker that's what looked like power and prestige so i got this investment banking internship and it was absolutely miserable uh they had this saying that i it is so funny in hindsight they said if you don't come to work on saturday don't bother coming back on sunday like just the culture of it was work as work 100 hours a week just just go nuts with it and i hated i hated every single second man and i had to leave but it wasn't because i was not into hard work i think i was absolutely willing to work hard i didn't want anyone to tell me to do it and so when i became um you know not necessarily financially independent but i could have a job it was it was more entrepreneurial it was like oh i will work very hard and sometimes i might work as hard as an investment banker i might work 80 hours a week but it's on my terms and i think everyone is way more willing to do that than they are to be told what to do i think that is an inherent human driver and if you can use your money for independence to where you can wake up and say i have the financial flexibility to work where i want live where i want retire what i want take a different job move to a different department even if it's going to pay less that giving yourself independence and autonomy i think for most people is what's going to drive that's that's that's the highest tool that you can use with money and what's important about that is where do you get independence with money it's the things you don't spend money on it's the car you didn't buy it's the house you didn't buy and most people will view that as like idle money you're saving up money it's just sitting in the bank doing nothing no no it's giving you independence and what's you view is like every dollar that you don't spend is money that you are actually spending on independence it's not idle it's giving you a it's giving you marginal more independence than you had the day before then i think that's that to me that's why i save money i'm not saving money because i'm a i'm a pessimist i think it's all got to come collapsing down i'm saving money because i want to be independent because that's what i think is going to give me the most fulfillment the most happiness and that's where the savings comes from wow i think this is a super important concept

现在我觉得，人们天生都有一种想要变得有成效和社交的驱动力，想去做事情，但一个很大的区别在于，是由老板指使你做，还是在自己的意愿下去做。当我在大学期间，就像很多年轻人一样，我想成为一名投资银行家，因为在我看来，那是权力和威望的象征。所以我获得了一个投资银行的实习机会，但这简直是糟糕透了，他们有个说法，现在回想起来真的很搞笑，他们说如果你周六不来上班，就不用周日再来了。他们的文化就是要你一周工作100小时，完全被工作淹没，而我非常讨厌这种生活，真的恨透了每一秒，所以我不得不离开。但这并不是因为我不愿意努力工作，我觉得自己完全乐意努力工作，只是不想被别人逼迫。 当我变得不一定财务独立，但能够找到一份更具创业精神的工作时，我发现自己会非常努力地工作，有时候甚至像投资银行家一样，每周工作80个小时，但这是按照自己的方式去做。我认为人们更愿意在自己的条件下努力，而不是被命令去做。我觉得这是一个人类的内在驱动力。如果你能利用金钱来实现独立，比如你可以在早晨醒来时说，我有经济的灵活性，可以选择自己想要工作的地方，生活的地方，甚至选择提前退休或者换个收入较少的岗位，只要能给予你独立性和自主性，对大多数人来说，这就是最大的驱动力。 这里的重要之处在于，如何用金钱获得独立？那就是你没有花掉的钱，是你没有购买的车子，没有买下的房子。很多人可能会把这视为闲置资金，认为这些钱只是呆在银行里什么作用也没有。但事实并非如此，它给了你独立性。每一元你没有花掉的钱，实际上都是你花在独立性上的钱，并不是闲置的，它每天都在给你带来比前一天更多的独立性。对我来说，这就是我存钱的原因。我不是因为悲观，认为一切都会崩溃而存钱，而是因为我想要独立，我认为这会带给我最大的满足感和快乐。这就是我存钱的动机。这是一个非常重要的概念。

Paragraph 1: how should the person who is let's just say early mid-career who likes what they're doing but thinks that this is probably not the thing for them i hear about this all the time i think it's this like yeah like it's it's good but it's a ton of work it's unclear how it's going to turn out but they feel like they're already on the conveyor belt yeah there's always this question of do you do you stay in investment banking another year to make a bunch of money and then you get out so that you then have the freedom to pursue something where you have more freedom you know people are always playing this kind of mental math and i don't think there's a a clear answer unless of course you're lucky enough that like you fall in love with science i mean i did not become a neuroscientist to make money and lord knows i didn't i mean i made some i may living but if people heard what i was making as a tenured forty five-year-old professor at a one of the premier universities in the world where the salaries are relatively high they would be shocked just shocked at post tax income is quite low by bay area standards right but did you feel like you had independence you can teach what you want say what you want there was a level of independence absolutely oh and i loved it and and um you know and i still teach there and you know it's one of these things where i wouldn't trade it for anything right

第1段：对于那些处于职业生涯早中期的人来说，如果他们喜欢自己的工作，但觉得这可能不是他们的最终选择该怎么办？我经常听到这种情况，人们觉得工作不错，但工作量很大，不确定结果会如何，但他们又觉得自己像是在传送带上，不停前进。总会有一个问题，你是继续在投行多待一年赚很多钱，然后退出以便追求更有自由的事业，还是继续现在的工作呢？人们总是在进行这种心理计算，而我认为没有一个明确的答案，除非你有幸爱上科学。我本人不是为了赚钱而成为神经科学家，当然，我也赚了一些钱，勉强生活下去。但如果人们知道我作为一名45岁的终身教授，在世界一流大学之一工作的薪水，他们会震惊，因为在税后收入按湾区标准来说相当低。但是，我是否觉得自己有独立性，能够教自己想教的、说自己想说的？是的，绝对有一种独立性。我非常喜欢这个工作，并且至今仍在讲授、继续从事这一切，我再也不想换其他选择了。

Paragraph 2: i also in terms of intellectual stimulation in terms of being able to look to my left or look to my right and and realize that most of the people at samford students include are just phenomenal like that their level of intellect their drive their excitement for what they're doing They know when it ends up there by accident right so that was and remains extremely exciting um but i think a lot of people unless they they find a profession that they really love or there's some feature of that profession that that keeps them you know looped in in a way that that feels satisfying you know the people etc most people are kind of thinking like all right how do i work to make a living and then you know like what what's the exit ramp people think a lot about exit ramps and sometimes it's a dollar amount but also it's the idea that maybe you know go work on their real love which might be like gardening they want to you hear about these these sort of hobby interests right i'll go i'll write poetry or all you know. go you know what ceramics or something like that um the things that they truly enjoy doing how how should people optimize along those must versus want to versus sort of aspirational goals two things come to mind here one is like if most people understand inherently the dangers of communism or something if the government's telling you what to do one to do it what to say that's a bad thing that's going to erode society but a lot of those people work at a at a job where their boss tells them what time to come in what to wear what to say how to act what not it's so they they they really understand it fundamentally at one level but they're actually doing some version

在桑福德，我常常被四周优秀的学生们所激励。他们的智慧和对自己所做事情的激情，让人感到振奋。在这个环境中，我意识到这些人并不是偶然来到这里，他们都充满了动力和热情。不过，我发现很多人还是在寻找一份能让他们真正喜爱的职业，或者工作中的某一方面能够让他们感到满意。大多数人都会思考如何通过工作来谋生，以及他们的“出口”在哪里。有时候，这个“出口”可能是一个目标金额，也可能是他们希望能从事自己真正热爱的事情，比如园艺、写诗或者陶艺等。 人们需要在必须做的事情、想要做的事情以及理想追求之间进行优化。在这个过程中，我想到两点：很多人本能地明白被规定去做某事是一件糟糕的事情，比如在共产主义体制下被政府严格控制。然而，许多人却在从事一份被老板规定着何时上班、穿什么、说什么和怎么做的工作。他们可以在宏观上理解这种限制，但实际上却在某种程度上重复着这种生活。

Paragraph 1: now companies have to manage their employees whatnot it's it's not a a knock against that but i think what's really true for independence and people if when they if they eventually move on to writing poetry and playing in their garden whatever it might be is that you eventually is that you leave on your own terms that whatever your exit from your career was was because you wanted to do it on your own terms so the thing in psychology called the peak end rule where uh to simplify it minimalize it a lot of how you remember any endeavor that you did in life a career vacation whatever it is is how you felt at the very end and for a lot of people if you have a great career you enjoyed your career you helped people you made money your colleagues appreciated you but then you got fired or your boss came to you and said you're too old to keep doing this that's bad that's that's you you'll never recover from that and you compare that to the people who quit on their own terms they said look i'm proud of my career but that's enough i'm going to take a step back and pass the baton to another generation those are the people who even if they didn't really enjoy their career that much will look back at it fondly because it gets back to freedom and autonomy and control do you leave on your own terms or you forced out on somebody else's schedule and so i think maximum wherever you go in life whatever you're doing even if you're not an entrepreneur maximizing for independence and autonomy and doing it on your own terms on your own calendar is absolutely vital in anything you're doing i mean most people are not necessarily particularly as they get older or not necessarily scared of death they're scared of a death not on their own terms with that that's going to sneak up on them where they're not going to have a chance to say goodbye so i think that's a good analogy for a lot of these things we're we're we're not scared of the ultimate outcome we're scared of not being able to do it on our own terms

第1段： 如今，公司必须管理员工，虽然这不是批评，但对于那些想要独立的人和未来可能去写诗、在花园里劳作的人来说，真正重要的是在自己的条件下离开。无论是职业生涯还是人生中的其他事情，一个人离开的时刻能够按照自己的意愿进行是关键。在心理学中有一个叫做高峰终结规则的理论，简单来说，你对生活中任何努力（如事业或假期）的记忆很大程度上取决于最后的感受。对于很多人来说，即便他们是很出色的员工，热爱自己的事业，为他人带来帮助，赚到了钱，受到同事的尊重，但如果最后被解雇了，或者老板说你年纪大了不适合继续工作，这种感受是很糟糕的，难以从中恢复过来。而那些按照自己的意愿辞职的人则不一样，他们会说："我为自己的职业生涯感到自豪，但这已经足够了，我要退居二线，把机会让给下一代。" 即使那些人并没有特别喜欢他们的事业，他们也会对此回忆得更加美好，因为这关乎自由、自主以及控制权——你是按照自己的条件离开的，还是被迫在别人的时间表上离开。无论你的人生走向何方，无论你在做什么，即使不是企业家，最大化独立自主，按照自己的计划行事都是至关重要的。在年纪增长时，大多数人其实并不害怕死亡，而是害怕无法按照自己的意愿面对死亡，害怕在没有机会告别时被死亡突袭。这是一个很好的类比，说明我们并不害怕最终的结果，而是害怕无法按照自己的意愿去实现它。

Paragraph 2: i once heard Ray Dalio say something along the lines of you know the first third of your life is spent trying to learn how to function in the world then there's a kind of middle third where you are acquiring resources to be able to take care of yourself and people close to you and then in the final third of your life you want to take your knowledge take what you gleaned in terms of financial and other types of wealth because of course there are other types of wealth and put back you know for subsequent generations is a beautiful model if you think about it as very different as that when you get older you either become an elder or elderly you get to choose which one you want to be an elder and help other people or elderly you're just going to disintegrate over time you got to choose which one nowadays we have both the benefit and the problem of people living longer and maintaining vigor longer and therefore working longer this is certainly true in academia people don't like to retire they really do not like to retire and i don't think it's just so they can make more money i think it's so they can stay intellectually active people getting into science typically because they like learning or academics generally they have a campus office where they go to and you know it makes them feel socially connected so you can understand all the reasons why these people in their late 60s 70s and even 80s sometimes even 90s continue to continue to go to work it's rare for these older generations of people that stay in various professions to continue to glean resources but it happens i mean i how old is buffet 93 maybe

我曾经听雷·达里奥说过，大致的意思是：人生的第一个三分之一是学习如何在这个世界上立足；接下来的中间三分之一，你在积累资源，以便能照顾自己和身边的人；然后在生命的最后三分之一，你希望将自己的知识和积累的财富（包括各种类型的财富）传递给后代。这是一种美好的生活模式。从这个角度看，随着年龄增长，你要么成为一位长者，帮助他人；要么仅仅变老，身心逐渐衰退。如今，我们面临的好处和挑战是：人们活得更久，也保持较长的活力，因此许多人工作更久。这在学术界尤其明显，人们不太愿意退休。我认为这不仅仅是为了赚更多钱，而是为了保持智力上的活跃。通常，从事科学或学术领域的人喜欢学习，他们在校园有自己的办公室，这让他们感觉与社会有联系。因此，可以理解为什么许多六十多岁、七十多岁、甚至八九十岁的人依然坚持工作。虽然老一辈仍在各行各业工作的情况并不多见，但也有发生，比如巴菲特，现在可能已经有93岁了吧。

Paragraph 1: yeah he's still investing yeah oh yeah full time okay and i'm presumably he's going to use that money for what either philanthropy or generational wealth within his family is that the plan he's already given away i think about 100 billion and the plan is to give away the the vast majority i think he announced recently that he was going to leave each of his kids a billion dollars for philanthropy not for their personal use but for philanthropy and the rest is all is all given away oh yeah the the children of the ultra rich that inherit all their wealth i don't know what the numbers are there i know a great number of them squander it yes but i also know a few examples of something that really make good on those and those incredible assets that they inherited and are you know very thoughtful hardworking people it does happen there are a couple of families i think of all the big robber baron families of 150 years ago the Rockefellers probably did it the best the Rockefellers still have a lot of wealth the Vanderbilts by far did it the worst they just squandered it in a couple generations

他仍然全职在投资，对吧？我猜，他会把这些钱用在慈善事业或者是为他的家庭创造世代财富，这是他的计划吧？我想他已经捐出了大约1000亿，而且计划是捐出绝大部分财富。我记得他最近宣布要留给每个孩子10亿美元用于慈善而不是他们的个人用途，剩下的都捐了。是的，超级富豪的子女继承了全部财富，我不知道具体数据，但我知道其中有很多人挥霍无度。但是，我也知道几个例子，他们很好地利用了继承来的巨大资产，是非常有想法和勤奋努力的人。这样的事确实发生过。有几个家族让我想到150年前的大强盗资本家家族中，洛克菲勒家族可能做得最好，他们至今仍保有大量财富，而范德比尔特家族则做得非常差，一两代人就把财富挥霍完了。

Paragraph 1: and this is fairly well known now but it's pretty interesting the first Vanderbil air who did not get a trust fund for whom all the money was was dried up the first person who didn't get any money was Anderson Cooper of cnn his mother Gloria Vanderbil was the last Vanderbilt who got a big trust fund and Cooper i think not coincidentally is the most successful and probably the happiest Vanderbilt air in 150 years and he's talked about this he was like i was the first person my family who had to make a name for himself the fact that his last name's not Vanderbilts Cooper and he didn't get any money he was like i had to go out and find my own way and find my own identity whereas all of his ancestors their identity was you're rich from birth that's your identity you don't need to go out and make a name for yourself you don't need to work hard you don't need to create anything all you need to do is sit here and spend your money and it made them miserable and Cooper was the first person look this is this is very anecdotal and that's how it's going to work for everyone but the first person who had to make a name for himself and work for himself was the one who was the most successful and probably the happiest super important concept again incredibly important i think because people often will think that they because they were born into families that didn't have a lot of money that somehow they were given the short end of the stick and in some sense they were right i mean it's one thing to grow up in a in a world with assets and another world where you don't have assets um but we don't often hear about the the downside it's hard to have sympathy for a vanderbelt heir who inherited four hundred million dollars on their 18th birthday well they can have a lot of sympathy for that right well this shows succession right you know it's all about the the horrible interpersonal dynamics of people that have a lot of wealth because it's never enough and they they self-destruct essentially i think the situation is you don't have sympathy for them but you should also realize that if you were in their shoes you would probably self-destruct as well it's very difficult to do once in a while you see someone who is completely motivated irrespective of money you know marx zuckerberg was offered a billion dollars cash for facebook when i think he was 22 and he said no i don't want it i'm going to keep going that's a ridiculously rare personality and i think you know most people if i inherited a billion dollars in my 18th birthday i probably would have no motivation but if musk did if you all must didn't wouldn't slow them down whatsoever

这是一个众所周知但很有趣的故事，第一个没有继承信托基金的范德比尔特家族继承人是CNN的Anderson Cooper。他的母亲Gloria Vanderbilt是最后一个获得庞大信托基金的范德比尔特家族成员。可能不是巧合，Cooper被认为是150年来最成功也可能是最幸福的范德比尔特继承人。他曾谈到过这一点，他是家族中第一个必须靠自己建立声誉的人。他认为，由于自己的姓氏不是Vanderbilt，再加上没有获得金钱支持，他不得不外出寻找自己的道路和身份。而他的祖先们从出生起就有财富，不需要建立自己的声誉，也不需要努力工作或创造任何东西，只需坐享其成，但这让他们感到不快乐。尽管这个观点可能是凭经验得出的，不一定适用于每个人，但Cooper作为第一个需要靠自己努力才获得成功的人，的确是最成功也最有可能感到快乐的一位。 这揭示出一个重要的概念，通常人们认为出生在贫穷家庭是很不幸的，但在某种意义上他们是对的。生活在有资产的环境和没有资产的环境之间确实有巨大差异。然而，我们很少听到财富的负面影响。很难对一个在18岁生日时继承了四亿美元的范德比尔特继承人感到同情，因为他们的问题看起来没有那么值得同情。这就像电视剧《继承》所展示的，围绕巨额财富的人际关系极度复杂，因为再多的财富也不会满足，他们最终自我毁灭。 虽然我们可能对他们没有同情，但也应该意识到，如果我们处在他们的处境，也可能会自我毁灭。这并不容易，但偶尔我们能看到一些不被金钱左右而完全有动力的人，比如马克·扎克伯格，在22岁时被提出以十亿美元现金收购Facebook，他拒绝了并继续前行，这种性格极其罕见。大多数人，假如在18岁生日时继承了十亿美元，可能就会失去动力，但如果是埃隆·马斯克，他就不会受到影响。

Paragraph 1: jeff basil stid marx zuckerberg did those are very rare people who have motivation that is so detached from money i wonder if it's the excesses of wealth that um destroy people or if it's the fact that the excesses take them away from the pursuit of what delivered the wealth in the first place for a lot of those people it's the pursuit of solving the problem that's that's doing it and i've i've a good friend patrick o' shaughnessy who phrased it this way i'm going to paraphrase somebody said if you had to describe the the mindset of those very successful entrepreneurs it's not driven it's not motivated it's tortured that they wake up every morning tortured by the problems that they're not fixing and the the opportunities that they have not yet uh uh found and there's a famous ela musk interview i think it was on lex friedman where he was like you think you want to be me the richest man in the world but you don't and he was like it's a storm up here it's a mess up here i think that's true for a lot of people

第1段翻译： 杰夫·贝佐斯、史蒂夫·乔布斯、马克·扎克伯格等人，他们是极少数人，有着与金钱无关的强大动力。我很好奇，是财富的过度影响毁了他们，还是这些过度让他们远离了创造财富的初衷。对很多人来说，是解决问题的追求让他们达到成功。我有个好朋友叫帕特里克·奥肖内西，他这样形容这种心理，我会稍作改动：有人说，如果要描述这些非常成功的企业家的心态，那不是由动力驱动的，也不是被激励的，而是被折磨着。他们每天早晨醒来，为自己还未解决的问题和未发现的机会而苦恼。有一个著名的埃隆·马斯克的采访，我想是在莱克斯·弗里德曼的节目上，他说你可能想成为我，世界上最富有的人，但其实你不想，因为这是一个混乱的风暴。我认为，很多人也有同样的感受。

Paragraph 2: my friend david center i was a great podcast i love such a good guy he's one of the best guys in the world i've ever met but he said of of all the 350 founders that he's profiled uh only one of them has he actually said i i would want that guy's life it was ed thorp but put that aside of the other 349 i think you read their biography and you can say i'm so glad that they existed by most most of the time they did a lot of good in the world they created products and make us better off and never in a million years what i want is life it seems miserable because most of the time that the simple answer is their financial and career success came the reason they're so successful is because they devoted every waking second of their entire life to this one problem this one endeavor and that came at the expense of their family life of their health of their mental health their physical health and if you get a full view of their

第二段： 我的朋友大卫是个很棒的播客主，我非常喜欢他，他是我见过的最好的人之一。但他说，在他采访的350位创业者中，只有一个人他真正想要过那样的生活，那个人是艾德·索普。但撇开这个不谈，其他的349人中，当你读他们的传记时，你会觉得很庆幸他们曾经存在，因为大多数情况下，他们对世界做了很多好事，创造了产品，让我们的生活变得更好。然而，在一百万年内，我都不希望过他们的生活，因为看起来很痛苦。原因很简单：他们的财务和职业成功大多是因为他们将一生的醒着的每一秒都投入到了一个问题、一个事业上，而这常常是以牺牲他们的家庭生活、健康、心理健康和身体健康为代价的。如果你全面了解他们的生活......

Paragraph 3: it's easy to look at musk and say oh rich man in the world that would wouldn't that be fun yeah but it came because he's had this life of a singular devotion to well in in his case two or three different companies um and i think if you take that full picture it's less glamorous than it would then it would seem and it's too tempting in life to have envy of someone and say oh well i want their money and i want their career and their relationship or their humor you know you're picking little bits and pieces from their life but it's not how it works you got to take the full package and when you look at the full package of those people who you might envy if you actually take a complete view of their life maybe some of them you would say no that is a great life like ed thorp but i i think for a lot of them if you got the full view

翻译如下： 第三段： 很容易看到马斯克就说，哦，他是世界上的有钱人，这不是很有趣吗？是的，但这源于他一生对两三个不同公司的专注。我认为，如果你看到全部情况，其实并没有那么光鲜。在生活中，我们常常容易嫉妒别人，想要他们的钱、事业、关系或幽默感，但这不是事情的运作方式。你只能选择他们生活的一小部分，而不是全貌。当你全面审视你可能会嫉妒的人生时，或许有的人你会觉得那的确是一个伟大的人生，比如爱德华·索普，但我认为对于很多人来说，如果你看到他们生活的全貌，可能不会那么赞叹。

Paragraph 4: you would look at it and say oh it's actually a lot different than i thought i framed this one way if you look at this is flagr flagrally anecdotal but among the 10 richest men in the world there are accumulative 15 divorces among them so it's very easy particularly for young people to say oh that's like i'm jealous of that person i envy that person i want to be that person but i think for a lot of them if you actually got a full view of their life it's not nearly as good as you would think i think people like Elon Musk people like Mark Zuckerberg they represent these you know incredibly extreme examples that obviously most people can't even including me can't fathom what a day in their life must be like you know met zuc he was on this this podcast and it seems that he really enjoys doing what he's

第4段：如果你仔细看看，你会说，哦，这实际上与我想象的有很大不同。我用某种方式对待这件事，但如果你看看这个情况，其中包含明显的例子：世界上最富有的十个男人中，共有15次离婚。因此，尤其是对年轻人来说，很容易说，哦，我嫉妒那个人，我羡慕那个人，我想成为那个人。但我认为，如果你能全面了解他们的生活，实际上可能并没有你想象的那么好。像埃隆·马斯克、马克·扎克伯格这样的人，他们代表了极端的例子，显然大多数人，包括我自己，都无法想象他们的日常生活会是什么样子。例如，扎克伯格曾在一个播客上谈过，似乎他真的很享受他所做的事情。

Paragraph 5: doing but i think for me and for most people it's just like so far out of the stratosphere of understanding is similar to the amount of wealth that they've acquired it just sort of like what do you even do with all of that and people go well i'd figure it out yeah i'm sure you would but you know it's just it's so astronomically outside the scale of one's normal and of dopamine reward schedules that you it's hard to imagine and what are you gonna do by a by a plane as big as a state you know you know so um but there's a place in between struggling to quote-unquote make it and being at that at that extreme where people hit that sweet spot and i think a lot of your work is really aimed at at least shining light on the possibility of a sweet spot yeah where you're doing something that you find meaningful making sufficient income that your anxiety is buffered um you have meaningful relationships in and out of work and you've essentially built a quote-unquote good life right i mean i think

第五段：我觉得，对我和大多数人来说，那种财富多到让人难以理解，就像在大气层之外一样遥不可及。人们常说，他们会找到方法处理这么多钱，对吧，我相信你会的。但是这种财富太过庞大，超出了我们日常生活和多巴胺奖励机制的范围，简直难以想象。你会怎么做呢？买一架如同一个州那么大的飞机吗？在努力“成功”和达到那极致之间，有一个中间地带，那就是所谓的甜蜜点。我觉得你的很多工作至少为找到这个甜蜜点提供了可能性，它是指你做的事情有意义，收入足够让你的焦虑得到缓解，同时你在工作内外都有重要的关系，并且你基本上已经建立了一个所谓的“好生活”。我就是这么认为的。

Paragraph 1: uh i heard nival say something recently where he said you know you want resources in the along the dimensions i just mentioned a healthy fit body a calm mind and a home full of love yeah i think it's pretty awesome list right there and it's a lot of work though right in with just to you know check off even one of those four boxes a lot of work right i think because money is so tangible of counting it is so easy and so tangible that even if people know that they're gonna put an inordinate amount of effort towards making more money at the expense of their relationships their health their children their friends their family and it comes at the expense because if i were to say you know how do i increase my income by 10 percent that's like i can wrap my head around that i can give you a number of what that would be and how i might be able to do it but if i said how do i get my kids to love me 10 percent more like i i i've no idea how to measure that or how to even pursue it so even if i want that because it's hard it's not tangible it's much easier to ignore and just pursue the thing that you can count which is money

最近我听到Nival说过一句话，他提到人们应该在几个方面投入资源：一个健康的身体、平和的心态和充满爱的家庭。我觉得这份清单很棒，但要实现其中任何一个目标都需要付出很多努力。因为钱是非常具体和容易计算的东西，即使有人明知道为了赚更多的钱会影响到他们的关系、健康、子女、朋友和家庭，他们还是会倾注过多精力到赚钱上。如果我问怎样把收入增加10%，这是一个可以具体衡量的数字，我也可以设想出一些实现的方法。但如果我问怎样让我的孩子多爱我10%，我甚至不知道该如何去衡量和追求。即使我希望这样做，因为它很困难且不易量化，所以更容易被忽略，而人们往往只追求那些可以衡量的东西，比如金钱。

Paragraph 2: do you have a dog i do golden retriever i was gonna say you want them a lovely 10 percent more get them a puppy but but sounds like you already did that i'm just i'm only half kidding um i would say that you know dogs are not only unconditional love but uh they have the ability to to give on it on a you know daily basis multiple times per day in a way that i mean they give love as as readily as they receive love right it's just it's like this perfect reciprocal loop and they're constantly in the moment they're just living right there this is great cartoon a lot of people have probably seen it it's uh a guy and a dog sitting on a lake and the guy's thought bubble coming out of his head is he's thinking about money he's thinking about work he thinks he's thinking about stocks the dog's thought bubble is a picture of them sitting on the lake they're just they're he's the dog just right in the moment just enjoying what he's doing right there i think that's like that's my jealousy of when of my dog when i look at her 24 hours a day everyone will there's a dog who recognize this

第二段： 你有狗吗？我有一只金毛。我本来想说，如果你想让它们更可爱的话，不妨给它们找只小狗做伴，不过听起来你已经这么做了。我说这些只是半开玩笑。狗不仅会给予无条件的爱，而且每天可以多次表达这种爱。它们给予爱的方式就像接受爱一样自然而然，是一个完美的互惠循环。狗总是活在当下，完全享受当下的快乐。有一个很棒的漫画很多人可能都看过：一个男人和一只狗坐在湖边。男人的思绪泡泡里充满了金钱、工作和股票，而狗的思绪泡泡里只是他们坐在湖边的画面。狗就这样专注于眼前，享受当下的时光。我有时真羡慕我的狗，可以24小时都这样活在当下。任何养狗的人都会认同这一点。

Paragraph 3: they're just in the moment they just enjoy what they're doing whatever they're doing and everyone including me is either uh worrying about the past or dreaming about the future i love that what's your dog's name if i may lucy the golden retrievers are an amazing breed because they also are universally loving yeah they they love the person that you know they their owner the most uh but they also love people that stop and meet them on the street yes not all dogs are like that the worst guard dogs in the world you can break in your house the golden retrievers come up and wag its tail and like yeah i love it um let's talk about this social comparison thing um i'm trying to make this practical for people that are both partnered and not partnered seems to me that a lot of what i've observed in terms of people who are on the on the conveyor belt work work work work work have a picture in their mind of kind of where that's all going when enough is enough and when they plan to hop off or stay on or how late to stay in large part based on yeah they're upbringing

第3段：他们只是活在当下，他们只是享受自己正在做的事情，而我们所有人，包括我在内，要么在担心过去，要么在憧憬未来。我喜欢那个。可以问一下你的狗叫什么名字吗？露西。金毛猎犬是一个很棒的品种，因为它们普遍有爱心。是的，它们最爱自己知道的人，即它们的主人，但它们也喜欢街上停下来和它们打招呼的人。不是所有的狗都这样，它们是世界上最差的看家狗。有人入侵你家时，金毛可能会摇着尾巴迎上去，好像在说“我喜欢这样”。让我们来谈谈社会比较这个话题吧。我正在努力让这对有伴侣和没有伴侣的人来说更实用。我观察到很多人似乎都在工作传送带上，工作、工作、工作，他们心里有个大概的画面，想知道什么时候才算够，什么时候计划跳下去或继续坚持，或者在很大程度上是基于他们的成长经历来决定待多久。

Paragraph 4: yeah kind of who they are but also the messages that they're getting from typically the one other person that has the greatest degree of input right like you could create a picture where the spouse in either direction is saying like we need more right that changes the picture completely right um where the spouse just says like i would just like to see you more i don't need any more stuff i just want to see you more we want to see you more these are the sorts of at-home dynamics that i think drive a lot of decisions about career not just what careers to pursue but how long to stay in whether or not you try and make partner in a firm whether or not your social media account needs x number more followers or not i think to me this is as important as the social comparison of of your peers at work or online yeah the messages that we received by the people closest to us about what to be afraid of what the needs are and i don't know that people have really parsed how to you know how to resolve all that but i'm guessing you probably have some thoughts about this

翻译： 这种情况不仅是关于他们自身是谁，还有来自通常是另一个对他们影响最大的人传递的讯息。例如，如果配偶希望有更多的经济资源，这会完全改变局面。然而，如果配偶只是说‘我只是希望能多见到你，不需要额外的东西，只是想多见到你’，这就是影响很多职业决策的家庭动态。不仅仅是选择从事哪个职业的问题，还包括在这个职位上呆多久，是否努力在公司成为合伙人，或者社交媒体账户是否需要增加一定数量的关注者等等。对我来说，这和工作中或线上同事之间的社会比较一样重要。我们最亲近的人传递的讯息告诉我们该害怕什么、需要什么。可能人们还没有完全理清如何解决这些问题，但我想你可能对此有一些想法。

Paragraph 1: well i think it's it's the balance between it is so difficult because for a lot of people who have families and are working very hard at the core if you said why are you working so hard well to make more money why do you want more money to take care of my family like it's for very good intentions but it's coming at the expense of time with your family and whatnot so a lot of things it's it's not that you're making a terrible decision you're you're doing what you think is right and then if you said well how much is enough to take care of your family by and large it's a game of comparison the way that people lived a hundred years ago at what is a good life a hundred years ago is in completely inadequate life today not even 100 years ago you back to go back to our parents generation and say in the 1950s there is a nostalgia for the 1950s of oh life was so good then and so great and the white picket fence and the dog and the stay at home on that gives it's a good picture but what was the definition of a good life back then uh a good middle-class life was an 800 square foot house with one bathroom for four people and camping for your annual vacation

我认为，这实际上是一个平衡的问题，这很困难，因为对于很多有家庭并努力工作的人的核心来说，如果你问他们为什么这么努力工作，他们会说是为了赚更多钱。为什么想要更多钱呢？是为了照顾家庭。这是出于非常好的意图，但却牺牲了与家人相处的时间等。因此，很多时候，并不是说你做了一个很糟糕的决定，而是你在做你认为正确的事。如果你问，多少才能足够照顾家庭呢？在大多数情况下，这是一场比较之战。人们一百年前认为的好生活在今天完全不够用。甚至不用说一百年前，你只要回到我们的父母那一代，把时间调回到1950年代，就会有一种对那个时代的怀旧情怀，觉得那时的生活很好，白色栅栏、狗，以及全职主妇，这是一幅好的画面。但是，那个时代对美好生活的定义是什么呢？那时中产阶级的好生活是一间有一个浴室的800平方英尺的房子，四个人居住，并且每年的假期是去露营。

Paragraph 2: you would describe a life that most people would say that's inadequate today that's not my definition of a good life today so that is shifting all the time and therefore you're out where you're you're saying like well how much money do you need to be happy the truth is i need more money than than the next family than the next person it's this continuous chain and i think a lot of that is just evolution it's a competition for resources and it doesn't matter how much money you have what matters is that you have more money than the next person that's the that's the sad truth for a lot of this and therefore you can easily imagine a world in which my grandkids are earning on average way more money than we are today and have way better resources better health better technologies and they're no happier for it and they don't feel any more relieved for it they don't feel like they can scale back and work less for it because they're going to be competing with other people

翻译成中文，尽量易读： 如果你描述的生活在今天大多数人看来是不够好的，那么这不是我对现代美好生活的定义。这种定义总是在变化。所以，当你说“需要多少钱才能快乐”时，真实情况是我需要比其他家庭或其他人更多的钱。这是一个不断延续的链条，我认为这在很大程度上是进化的结果，是对资源的竞争。拥有多少钱并不重要，重要的是你比别人拥有更多钱。对很多人来说，这就是令人遗憾的现实。因此，你很容易想象一个世界，在那里我的孙子孙女们平均收入比我们今天要高得多，拥有更好的资源、更好的健康和更先进的技术，但他们并不因此感到更幸福，也不因此而感到释然。他们并不觉得因此可以减少工作时间，因为他们仍然需要与其他人竞争。

Paragraph 3: that have all those things john made her canes a great economist very famously predicted a world where people would be working 20 hours a week because technology was going to make it so we didn't need to work and that's not how it works whatsoever we are working less than we did back when everybody was a farmer but not nearly as as as little as we could be if we still had the expectations of a nineteen fifty's family living in eight eight hundred square foot house if we had those expectations people could be working way less but it's all a competition between other people so even if a hundred years from now a middle class family is living in a five thousand square foot house with a spaceship in their backyard if that becomes the norm you don't take you don't appreciate it any of it i mean if you took someone a hundred years ago if you took john rocker feller the richest man in the world a hundred years ago and brought him to today and showed him a middle class family in america he would say what is this thing advil you take a pill that makes your headache go away what do you hear you have sunscreen you just rub this on the face you don't get some hurt he would his jaw would be on the floor but nobody appreciates that today like he would because it's just commonplace you expect your your definition of a good life is i expect to have that so it's always going to be the case that the reason we're working hard is to take care of our family and what we feel like is an adequate amount is a growing level of our time i should also say that that is by and large a great thing the reason society progresses is because most people wake up in the morning feeling a little bit inadequate whatever i have today is not enough and i need to go work harder to get more

第三段翻译： 约翰·梅纳德·凯恩斯曾是位伟大的经济学家，他非常有名地预言过一个世界——科技会让人们每周工作只有20小时，因为我们不再需要那么多的劳动。不过，实际情况并非如此。虽然我们比所有人都是农民的时候工作时间少了，但远没有达到我们本可以的少。如果我们仍然保持1950年代一家住在八百平方英尺房子里的标准，人们可以工作得更少。但现在一切都是人与人之间的竞争。即使一百年后，一个中产家庭住在五千平方英尺的房子里，后院里有飞船，这成了常态，你也不会为此感到欣喜。如果你把一百年前的人，比如当时世界上最富有的人约翰·洛克菲勒，带到现在，给他看一个今天美国的中产家庭，他会惊讶地问：“这些是什么？阿司匹林？你吃下药片，头痛就好了？防晒霜？只需涂在脸上就不会晒伤？”他的下巴都会惊掉。但今天的人们不会像他那样感到珍惜，因为这些都是稀松平常的。你对美好生活的定义变成了我期待拥有这些。因此，为什么我们努力工作，是为了照顾家庭，而我们认为合适的生活水准却在不断提高。我还要说，总的来说，这是件好事。社会进步的原因就是大多数人每天早上醒来会感到有点不满足——今天拥有的还不够，我需要更加努力工作以获取更多。

Paragraph 1: that's why we have good technology and economic growth over time so at the macro level it's a great thing that's what pushes society forward and better medical technologies but all better technologies but the individual level it creates this hamster wheel of a constant feeling of inadequacy that we try to compensate for by working harder and working harder even when it comes at the expense of things that should be more dear to us like our friends and family in health and with social media we now have access to millions if not billions of comparison points whereas just 30 years ago even 20 years ago we only had access to local comparison points like the people in your neighborhood drove certain types of cars now online you can see people that you went to high school with that have certain lives and their vacations that are spectacular relative to the ones that you know one typically has

这就是为什么从宏观层面来看，我们拥有关好的科技和经济增长，推动了社会的进步以及更好的医疗技术。然而在个人层面，这种进步却让人感到像在不停追逐的仓鼠轮中，不足的感觉不断涌现，我们试图通过更加努力的工作来弥补，即使这种努力会牺牲掉那些对我们更重要的东西，比如朋友、家人和健康。随着社交媒体的发展，我们现在可以接触到数百万乃至数十亿的比较点，而就在30年前，甚至20年前，我们的比较对象仅限于身边的人，比如邻居开着什么样的车。而现在，在线上，我们可以看到高中同学过着怎样的生活，他们的旅行是多么的壮观，相比之下，自己的旅行就显得平平无奇。

Paragraph 2: i'd like to talk about this notion of social comparison as as a function of place we can touch on some major cities we were doing this before we started recording it's kind of fun to do like in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley area where i grew up it seems like there's a high there's a high value placed on the people who managed to do things that wick out to the entire world the building of companies or technologies that go everywhere it's not just because of facebook and instagram it's also because of biotech it's because of all sorts of things apple right i mean there's a whole history of that um what would you say for like New York City what like what is the dominant message that's being pumped into the psyche of New Yorkers um and by the way i love New York City but it'd be fun to play this game a little bit as an example and then we'll then wick it out to to people regardless of where they live in the world this is one of those things where what is so good and beneficial for society is what makes individuals miserable so i think what is the message here in los angeles or in New York or or any other big city San Francisco the message is waking up in the morning and feeling inadequate because you are surrounded by people who at least look like they're doing better than you and you say i have to i have to chase that person i have to get what they have that is great for society that's where we get new technologies new innovations and growth the individual level it's very difficult

第二段： 我想谈谈社会比较这种概念，尤其是它在不同地点的运作机制。我们可以聊聊一些主要城市，就像我们在开始录音前所做的那样，这是一种有趣的比较。比如在我长大的地方——湾区和硅谷，好像特别强调那些能把影响力扩散到全球的人，无论是通过创办公司还是开发全球范围的技术。这不仅仅是因为Facebook和Instagram，还有生物科技、苹果等各类事物的存在，这是一个完整的历史。 那比如在纽约市，主导纽约人心理状态的信息是什么？顺便说一句，我非常喜欢纽约市，但玩玩这个游戏会很有趣。然后，我们可以将其扩展到世界各地的人来看。这种情况是，在对社会整体有利的事物中，常常让个体感到痛苦。我想不管在洛杉矶、纽约或其他大城市，像旧金山，这种信息都是：早晨醒来，感到不够好，因为你周围的人至少看起来比你过得好，你会对自己说，我得追赶那个人，我得拥有他们所拥有的。 这对社会而言是好事，因为这带来了新技术、新创新和增长。但从个体层面来看，这非常困难。

Paragraph 1: i grew up out in the woods in like tahoe and in that region if you are a dentist let's say you are on top of the world you are the richest guy in town everybody looked up to you you had the nicest house the nicest car if you are a family dentist here in los angeles you don't stick out whatsoever you might you might feel like you are so far behind because you're surrounded by legitimate billionaires and so i think it's interesting to ask is a dentist happier in like tahoe or here i think it's probably in like tahoe because your comparison group is so much less especially back in the pre-social media days

Paragraph 1: 我在像塔霍这样偏僻的森林地区长大。在那一带，如果你是一名牙医，那你就是镇上最成功的人，几乎是镇上最有钱的人，大家都很尊敬你，你住着最好的房子，开着最好的车。然而，如果你是洛杉矶的一名家庭牙医，你就不会特别显眼，因为身边都是亿万富翁，所以你可能会觉得自己落后很多。因此，我认为值得探讨的是，牙医在像塔霍这样的地方是否更快乐，我认为大概是在塔霍，因为你的比较群体少得多，尤其是在社交媒体出现之前的时代。

Paragraph 2: the states that are statistically the happiest in the united states it's not it's not for cities it's not los angeles it's not new york it tends to be in the midwest where wonderful places whatnot but less competitive than the grind of the big cities and so but that's where you know at the individual where you happiest it's where you have less comparison but for society what is better it's when you have a huge competition for getting ahead so i don't know i don't know where i come down on that of like where i would want to be of course i want to be happy as an individual but i want to live in a society that is moving ahead and the reason it's moving ahead is because most people wake up feeling inadequate you grew up in tahoe yeah um i love like tahoe but can i ask you did you grow up being competitive or thinking about how well people skied or snowboarded yes absolutely it was also i lived in tahoe pre pre-tech money it's very different now because so much bay area tech money just flooded into it it's its own little hamptons now but back in the day it was i felt like when i grew up normal people drove old pickup trucks and rich people drove new pickup trucks that was the difference between rich and poor

第二段：在美国，统计上最幸福的州通常不在大城市，比如洛杉矶或纽约，而是在中西部。中西部是一些美妙的地方，相对来说没有大城市那么竞争激烈。因此，在个人层面，你在哪里最幸福呢？可能是在与他人比较较少的地方。而对于社会而言，什么是更好的呢？那就是追求进步的激烈竞争。因此，我不确定自己更倾向于哪个：我当然希望作为个体能幸福，但也希望生活在一个不断发展的社会，而这种发展是因为大多数人都觉得自己不够好从而努力向上。你是在塔霍长大的，对吗？我喜欢塔霍，但我想问你，你在成长过程中是否经历过竞争，或者关注过别人滑雪或单板滑雪的水平？是的，绝对是这样的。我还在科技资金涌入塔霍之前居住在那里。当时的塔霍与现在有很大不同，现在那里充斥着来自湾区的科技资金，变成了一个小型的汉普顿斯。但在过去，我感觉我成长时，普通人开的是旧皮卡，而有钱人开的是新皮卡，这就是当时贫富差距的表现。

Paragraph 3: both in a city like los angeles in new york and in a social media world especially it's normal people drive honda civics and rich people have private jets like the the stratification between them is is just blown so far out of proportion i see this with my nine-year-old son who like a lot of kids watches mr beast i think is great i think is a awesome awesome guy but it's completely warped my son's sense of money because mr beast will be like oh keep your hand on the table and the last person with their hand wins a million dollars it's like if that's your sense of money it's completely warped and and skewed and so look i it's it's a it's a tough way to live and i think the more of that angst that people have of i'm inadequate i need to get ahead the better society is going to be the more technology we're going to have a great example of this is what decades were the most technologically innovative by far it's not even close it was the 1930s the great depression and the 1940s world war two when society was on fire that's when every business every scientist every entrepreneur woke up every morning and said i need to figure this out right now today immediately during the great depression if you're a business owner it was if i don't figure out a way to become more efficient i'm bankrupt tomorrow so that was the birth of a lot of the assembly lines it was a birth of the grocery store the birth of laundromat every business got more more uh just better at at at what they do and the ones that didn't went out of business immediately world war two was if we don't figure out new technologies uh we're we're gonna lose everything hiller's gonna control the planet so that was nuclear energy radar jets go on down the list of things that we benefit from today happen because of that social angst that we had back then and so i think there's so much evidence that society progresses when things are a little bit on fire not too much on fire because then you just get overwhelmed with it but if you have a little bit of angst of i need to wake up i need to do this

在像洛杉矶和纽约这样的大城市，以及在社交媒体世界中，普通人开本田思域，而富人却拥有私人飞机，这种差距被夸大得非常厉害。我看到我的九岁儿子也有类似的感受。他像许多孩子一样，看着MrBeast的视频，我觉得MrBeast非常棒，但这完全扭曲了我儿子的金钱观，因为MrBeast会做一些比如“把手放在桌子上，最后一个拿开的人赢得100万美元”的事情。如果这是你的金钱观，那真的很扭曲。 这种生活方式很艰难，我认为这种“我不够好，我需要进步”的焦虑越多，社会就会越好，我们会有更多的科技。一个很好的例子是，20世纪哪个年代的科技创新最多？毫无疑问是1930年代的大萧条和1940年代的二战。当时，整个社会处于危机中，每个企业、科学家、企业家每天醒来的第一件事就是：我需要马上解决这个问题。 在大萧条时期，如果你是企业主，你得想办法提高效率，否则第二天就要破产。因此，那个时候诞生了装配线、超级市场和自助洗衣店等。没有改进的企业立刻倒闭。二战期间，如果我们不研发新技术，就会失去一切，希特勒将控制整个地球。核能、雷达、喷气式飞机等技术就是因为那时的社会焦虑而诞生的。 所以，我认为有很多证据表明，当社会有一些小危机时，会推动进步。当然不能火太大，否则会被压垮，但有一点焦虑感会让人更有动力去行动。

Paragraph 1: and when societies become fat and happy and decadent or when companies do this companies that just are minting money and there's no pressure on it they have more money than they know what to do with that's the downfall of a lot of companies seers i bm intel bowing who are either not around or our shells or their former selves i think you can tie a lot of that to the success that they had in the past when there was no pressure to innovate and get it and get ahead it was just a culture of we have so much lying around here that we can do anything that we want i had a guy tell me one time who said every business should have a little bit of debt because it keeps you in check keeps your ambitions in line of waking up being like no i i have to succeed this year because we have debt to pay off and when you have too much freedom and a little bit too much autonomy you have a higher chance of just letting it slip away what made you great when you were young and poor and broke and hungry slips away when the wealthier you become tell me what you think of this mental exercise as you're describing this to me i'm thinking about um how at different stages of my career first academic science and i still teach but i'm shut down my animal lab still involved in some human research but mainly focused on the podcast these days um i can look to different things around me that were the the forces pulling on me i like to think in terms of carrot and stick you know those that don't know what that is because we have a lot of listeners from outside the u.s. carrot you know carrot is the thing you're working towards the the enticing thing the reward stick is the is the punishment carrot and stick because frankly that's how the brain works carrot and stick right um

随着社会变得富足快乐甚至奢靡，或者公司变得赚钱容易，没有压力，资金多得无处可用，许多公司因此走向衰落。像西尔斯、IBM、英特尔和波音，有些已经消失或只是昔日辉煌的空壳。许多这些公司衰落的原因可以追溯到他们过去的成功，当时创新和进步的压力较小，文化中弥漫着一种我们有足够资源可随心所欲的心态。有个人曾告诉我，每个企业都应该背负一点债务，因为这能让你保持清醒，确保你的抱负处于正轨，因为要还债就必须成功。当你有过多的自由和自主权时，就更容易失去让你在年轻、贫穷、破产和饥饿时成功的动力。财富越多，这种动力往往越容易消失。听到这些后，我想到了自己职业生涯的不同阶段：最初的学术科研，虽然我仍在教学，但已经关闭了动物实验室，现在主要参与一些人类研究，不过主要精力放在播客上。我能够识别出不同环境中对我产生影响的力量。我喜欢用"胡萝卜与大棒"来形容这些力量。对于不了解这个表达的人，尤其是美国以外的听众，"胡萝卜"是指我们努力追求的诱人事物，即奖励，而"大棒"则是惩罚。事实上，大脑就是这样运作的，有奖励也有惩罚。

career. And a lot of what we're talking about today is carrot and sticks of different sizes, different types, etc for every stage of my career: graduate student, postdoc, professor before ten year, professor after getting ten years. Kind of interesting concept. People think of his job for life, but it's really academic freedom and you're still on the fundraising treadmill.

职业生涯。而我们今天讨论的很多内容都是关于在我职业生涯的每个阶段，不同大小和类型的“胡萝卜和大棒”：研究生阶段、博士后阶段、获得终身教职之前的教授阶段、以及获得终身教职之后的教授阶段。这是一个相当有趣的概念。人们认为这是一个终身职业，但实际上这只是学术自由，你仍然需要不断地筹集经费。

Or even as a podcaster, you know, like what the force was inside me and not trying to make this about me. I just can I know that there are different people that I'm trying to satisfy and of course satisfy my own curiosity and intellect but there, there are forces. There's the I'm part of a group, I'm part of a team here. I can't let them down. So it doesn't matter how well I slept last night. I slept happened to sleep pretty well last night, but it doesn't matter. I got to show up right? Got sued up and show up as they say.

即使作为一个播客主持人，你知道，内心有一种力量驱动着我，但我并不想让这变成关于我自己的事情。我知道我需要满足不同的人，当然也要满足我自己的好奇心和智慧，但这里有一些力量。我是这个团队的一员，我不能让他们失望。所以昨晚我睡得好不好并不重要。我昨晚确实睡得不错，但这不重要，我必须要表现出色，对吧？就像他们说的，要全副武装，准时到场。

Do you think it's worthwhile for people to stop wherever they are in their life arc and just think about like where are these these forces pulling us? The carrots and the sticks because I think therein lies a lot of information. Are you working for an expectation that you need to fulfill because you did it before? I sometimes think about professional athletes. They sometimes have a shorter professional life than in other careers because just physical capabilities give way. But you know, like what drives them?

你认为人们是否值得在生活的各个阶段停下来思考一下那些正在影响我们的力量呢？这些诱惑和压力中包含着大量的信息。你是在为了过去的某种期待而努力吗？就像职业运动员，他们的职业生涯有时比其他职业更短，因为身体能力会退化。但你知道，是什么在驱动他们呢？

I often want to know like what pulls them. Like where do they feel obligated? When you know not just you know what what the drive is but where do they feel obligated? Where do they feel like kind of pulled? Is it to the general public? Is that their parents? Is that their bank account? Is it the fear that they're going to have to retire at some point? Do you ever think about this kind of stuff? I think a lot of is tied to your identity of just who do you see in the mirror when you wake up every morning.

我常常想知道是什么在推动他们。比如，他们感到有责任的地方在哪里？当你不仅知道他们的动力是什么，还知道他们感到有责任的地方，这是怎样的？他们感到被吸引是因为公众吗？是因为他们的父母吗？是因为他们的银行账户吗？还是因为对将来某天不得不退休的恐惧？你有没有想过这种事情？我觉得很多都与个人身份有关，就是你每天早上醒来时在镜子里看到的自己是谁。

And if your identity is I'm a professional athlete for identity is I'm a podcaster, I am a rich person whatever it might be then that's that's what's pulling you. It's that source of identity. So this gets back to the Paul Graham idea of keep your identity small. I think he met it in mainly in the context of politics. Politics can just poison your identity and it really affects your thinking but keeping your identity small for a lot of things I think is a great point of view.

如果你的身份是职业运动员，播客主持人，或者是富翁，无论是什么，这些身份都在牵动着你。这就是你的身份来源。这与保罗·格雷厄姆的观点有关，他提到要保持身份小型化。我认为他主要是从政治的角度提出来的。政治会污染你的身份，严重影响你的思维，但我觉得在很多方面保持身份小型化是一个很好的观点。

The more you look in the mirror and say I am a blank, doesn't matter what that is I'm a professor, I'm an author whatever it is, it's hard to give that up because part of your identity. I saw this with my own with my own dad who was uh, he was a doctor and he retired and he went back to work a year later because I think at least part of it was when he looked in the mirror he had to say I am a doctor. That was his identity and when he retired he couldn't say that anymore and it drove him crazy. I think it's true for a lot of people. Now that could be great for him it was great and I think for me my identity I think my core identity is I'm a father, I'm a husband, I hope to be a friend but then maybe it's I'm an author and if I had to give that up it might sting a little bit.

当你在镜子里看自己，并不断地说“我是一名什么”时，无论是教授、作家还是其他身份，这都很难放弃，因为它已经成为你身份的一部分。我在我父亲身上看到了这一点。他是一名医生，退休后又在一年后重返工作岗位。我认为至少部分原因是因为当他照镜子时，他必须能够说“我是一名医生”。这就是他的身份，而在退休后，他无法再这样说，这让他感到不安。我认为这对很多人来说都是如此。对他来说，重返工作是一件好事。我想对我而言，我的核心身份是父亲和丈夫，希望将来也是一个朋友，但也可能包括“我是一个作家”，如果让我放弃这些，可能会有些不舍。

It's not maybe the core of my identity but it's right there and I think for a lot of people if you're successful cord of their identity is I'm a person who makes a lot of money, I'm a person who makes x dollars per year and they're unable to give that up and that's that again. I think if we're talking about money that's when money becomes a liability is when it's ingrained in your identity and it's controlling you. You're not using it as a tool it's using you as it's a little marionette doll to control you every day and I I think that's that's when a lot of people go astray with their happiness with money is when it starts controlling them because it's so core to who they see in the mirror every day.

这可能不是我身份的核心，但它很重要。对于很多人来说，他们的身份核心是"我是一个赚很多钱的人，我每年能赚多少多少"，而他们无法放弃这种想法。我认为，当谈到金钱时，当它成为你身份的一部分并开始控制你时，钱就会成为一种负担。你没有将钱当作工具，而是成了被它操控的小木偶。我认为，当金钱开始掌控他们的时候，很多人在金钱与幸福之间就走偏了，因为这已经深深植根于他们每天镜中的自我形象中。

Yeah. That's like that cartoon of the person standing with a little cage in front of their face like they're they're giving out freedom by virtue of some mental construct. I wonder if perhaps even better than Paul's idea of shrinking one's identity to make it operational and make it verb based because it's one thing to say I'm going to not use my professional title of podcaster, professor, author, doctor but if one gets to the verb function that drove the pursuit of things in the first place. I enjoy doing this, I'm a curious person. Yeah. Like you know I have the I seem to mention them all the time and I'm just going to do it because it's my podcast Rick Ruben's a close friend and I feel so lucky for that friendship.

是的，这让我想起一个漫画：一个人站着，面前有个小笼子，好像他们通过一些心理结构在“发放自由”。我在想，或许比保罗的缩小身份以便于操作并将其动词化的想法更好的是：缩小身份固然可以选择不使用像播客主持人、教授、作者、医生这些头衔，但如果能够回归到最初驱动这些追求的动词功能，那就更好了。我喜欢做这些事，我是个好奇的人。是的，就像我似乎一直在提及他们，我就要提一下，因为这是我的播客，Rick Ruben 是我的好友，我为这段友情感到非常幸运。

Of course, I love the music he's produced but that's not why I love the friendship. I happen to just really Rick's a great guy, but because he's so verb and action-based it's about almost everything Rick talks about in terms of creativity and productivity is about discarding with titles and concepts of who you were before and just being in the verb state of wherever you happen to be at that point in your career. life and creating offerings and he actually likes to remove the concept of an audience he actually talks about this is your offering to god and the audience may or may not like it but that in his words are the way is the way to frame it because otherwise you end up trying to satisfy people and then you're no longer in the process of of exploring your curiosity or creativity so yeah i've decided at this moment and i'll make it a i'll put it on record that i'm not going to think of myself as a podcaster i mean i did a lot of things i did you know pursue skateboarding pursued tropical fish tanks pursued you know science and and research science teaching which you know in this public education and podcasting i fully expect that in five to ten years i'll be doing something completely different but it'll still be attached to the verb state that drove every single one of those professions yeah wherever every single one of those pursuits because as rick's taught me it's the energy that you need to continue to tap into that is self-rewarding the feelings of delight of friction and then release when you solve a problem it's not really about the profession or the title or even the the resources that come from that but that in fact the greatest resources in particular financial resources coming from identifying the verb state of being in pursuit of something that's truly unique to you and that changes over time i'm always amazed at these examples like the Warren Buffet's and these people have been investing their whole life you pointed this out in your book that one of the the fundamental things about Buffet being so successful is that he's had a lot of time investing in doing business years eleven years ninety three right doesn't seem like he needs another venue it seems like he's got it dialed that's his venue if he were if you were golfer he'd be dolphin at ninety three yeah he's he's doing it because he loves to do it i think i think it's for me as a writer what's always been the case one of this i don't think this might might really apply to your own career i've always written for an audience of one which is myself i just want to write things that i think are interesting i want to write stories that i find appealing i want to write it in a style that i would enjoy reading and i don't i don't care that much about the audience who might read it of course i want them to read it and maybe buy the books and enjoy it but i'm writing for myself and i think you always do your best work when you do that if you're writing or producing a podcast for an audience of one which is you and so i i think if you're doing it otherwise it's performative and and people do much worse work they're much less creative they're much less enjoyable when it's when it's performative when you're start off by asking what does the audience want to appear or see and that never works that but that's what most people do and even what is every writing 101 teacher teaches their students know your audience i don't i don't think it's good it's good advice because know your audience very quickly becomes pander to your audience not just as writers but in any form of work that you do pandering to your boss pandering to your quarterly metrics whatever they might be you're always going to do your best work if you have the independence in the autonomy to have an audience of one which is yourself

当然，我喜爱他创作的音乐，但这不是我喜欢这段友谊的原因。Rick是个很好的人，因为他非常注重行动和实践。他谈论创造力和生产力时，常常强调抛弃过往的头衔和概念，专注于当前你在职业生涯中的状态，创造出你的“奉献”。他甚至倾向于去除“观众”的概念，认为这是一种献给上帝的奉献，观众可能会或不会喜欢它，但在他的话中，这就是正确的框架方式，因为否则你会努力去迎合他人，而不再是在探索你的好奇心或创造力。 所以，我决定不再把自己看作是一个播客主持人。我追求过滑板、热带鱼缸、科学、教学，以及公共教育和播客，我完全预计在五到十年后，我会做一些完全不同的事情，但它们仍然会与引导我从事这些职业的状态相连。因为正如Rick教会我的，这是需要不断触及的能量，自我奖励那种当解决问题时的快乐、摩擦和释放的感觉，真正重要的不是职业、头衔，甚至不是由此带来的资源。 实际上，最大的资源，尤其是经济资源，来源于识别你处于探索某个独特事物时的状态，而这会随着时间变化。我总是被像沃伦·巴菲特这样的例子所惊讶，他们一生都在投资和做生意。正如你在书中指出的，巴菲特如此成功的根本原因之一是他有很多年的时间投入其中。巴菲特似乎已经找到了属于他的舞台，他不停地做是因为他热爱它。 对我来说，作为一位作家，我总是为一个观众写作，那就是我自己。我只是想写一些我认为有趣的东西，写出我觉得吸引人的故事，以我会喜欢的风格去写。我不太在乎可能读它的观众。当然，我希望他们读我的书并喜欢它，但我首先是为自己写作。我认为当你这样做时，你会创作出最好的作品。 如果你是为你自己这一个“观众”播客或者写作，你会有更好的表现。相反地，当你一开始就问观众想听或看的是什么时，那是表演性质的，人们在那种情况下会创作出比较差的作品，创造性较低，也不太享受。即使是写作101课程的老师也会教他们的学生要了解自己的观众，但我不认为这是个好建议，因为了解你的观众很快就会变成取悦你的观众。不仅仅是在写作中，在你做的任何形式的工作中，这种取悦也可能是针对你的上司或季度指标。你永远会在拥有自由和自主权的时候，作为你自己的“观众”来创作出最好的作品。

brian Chesky of airbnb talks about this he's like don't build a product that a thousand people like build a product that a hundred people love or that one person you love and use it that's when you're going to do always do your best work you're not trying to manage a product or a book or a podcast towards some metric or goal you're doing it because you love doing it much easier said than done for a lot of careers because if you're working for a company you you do have metrics you have to follow you do have formulas and policies you have to follow so it's not that everyone can do this but it's it's unavoidable that you're always going to do your best work when it's yours and you're doing it for yourself not because you're trying to reach some metric i guess the phrase you know be a lifer i used to think that meant if you were a musician stay a musician if you're in finance stay in finance but i think now i'm going to revise that to one wants to be a lifer at tapping into the energy of pursuing things that are really meaningful to them in that moment yeah in that phase of life because it's so different

Airbnb的Brian Chesky谈到，不要打造一个让一千人喜欢的产品，而是要打造一个让一百人甚至一个人热爱的产品，而且这个人还可能是你自己。只有当你真正热爱并使用这个产品时，你才会发挥出最佳状态。这个想法很难在许多职业中实现，因为在公司工作时，你需要遵循指标、公式和政策，并不是所有人都能做到。但是不可否认的是，当你为自己工作而不是为了达到某个指标时，你总是会做出最好的作品。 我曾经以为“终身追求者”这个说法意味着，如果你是音乐家就一直从事音乐，如果你在金融行业就一直留在金融行业。但现在我认为，这个概念应该是：在任何时期都要追求对自己真正有意义的事情。这是因为在不同的人生阶段，这些事情对你的意义可能会完全不同。

i mean when i was a kid i was obsessed with fish tanks and tropical birds and then skateboarding punk rock means it and it changed i mean the venue changed but we don't really change as in in terms of identity very much right these professions and the these bank accounts and we don't actually we're not fundamentally changed by them it's really a bunch of verb states that that drive all this and i actually hope that in 20 years i'm doing something different that i'm not writing about the same topic so maybe i maybe i hope i'm still writing and thinking and reading and learning but if you're always doing the same thing i think someone like buffett is an incredibly oddball rare bird who's been doing the same thing for 80 years and loves it like i want to grow and adapt and evolve in in what i'm doing but if something becomes courtier identity then it's hard to release that and let go you feel like you have to keep doing it even when it's not that fun anymore and you're not getting the the dopamine rush of trying something new you're attached to something you keep being a lawyer whatever it might be because that's your identity even when you don't like it anymore

当我还是个孩子的时候，我非常迷恋鱼缸和热带鸟类，后来迷上了滑板和朋克摇滚。我的兴趣改变了，我的身份没有太多改变，对吧？我们的职业和银行账户并没有从根本上改变我们。实际上，这一切都是由一系列动词状态驱动的。我希望20年后我能做不同的事情，而不是一直写关于同一个主题的文章。也许我希望自己能继续写作、思考、阅读和学习。但如果你总是做同样的事情，我认为像巴菲特那样的人是非常罕见的异类，他做同一件事已80年并且乐在其中。我希望能在所做的事情上成长、适应和进化。然而，如果某件事情成为你身份的一部分，那么放手就会变得很困难，即使你不再喜欢它，甚至不再享受尝试新事物带来的快乐。你会感到必须继续做这件事，比如继续当律师，因为那是你的身份，即使你已不喜欢它。

Paragraph 1: think about michael jordan playing baseball she did for a little while he wanted to play professional baseball yeah so he gave himself the shot i think it's awesome even though it didn't turn out as well as a basketball turned out for him it's just because it just reflected his inherently competitive you know high performance nature i think you're doing something or bizarre so i keep bringing up but you build the biggest most successful company in the world amazon what do you do in your retirement you start a rocket company kind of thing it's like you you like maybe he did i don't know that's an one put words in his mouth maybe he did get a little bit bored with amazon and it was he needed to do something else but he's not going to retire he's not going to play golf he's not going to sit on his boat he's going to build another company i always have to be doing something even if it's growing and adapting

想想迈克尔·乔丹打棒球的那段时间，他确实尝试了一下，他想打职业棒球。我觉得这很棒，尽管结果不如他打篮球时那么成功，但这正反映了他天生的竞争性和高绩效的特质。类似的事情还有，你建立了世界上最大、最成功的公司亚马逊，那你退休后会做什么呢？你会创办一家火箭公司。或许他对亚马逊感到有些无聊，需要做些其他事情，但他不会退休，也不会去打高尔夫或是悠闲地坐在船上。他会再创办一家公司。我总是要去做些什么，即使是成长和适应新事物也好。

Paragraph 2: you're working on a new book and i eagerly anticipate the release of that new book when's it coming out september 2025 okay so we got a little while to wait yeah um are you willing to share a few things that you're thinking about or that um you know we might expect to see in that book yeah i think there there are pieces of the book that you and i have talked about today uh the book is called the art of spending money and i make a point of the book is not called the science of spending money because spending money is not a science it's not something where you can say here's the formula works for everybody it's an art and what is an art it is different for everybody it's subjective it's often contradictory and that's i think that's what appropriate way to spend money should be so at no point in the book do i say here's how you should spend your money because i don't think anybody can accurately do that for a broad audience it's a look at the psychology of envy of keeping up with the jones's of social aspiration of identity that we've been talking about managing money and kids of being jealous of other people have wanted to get attention for yourself it's a look at the psychology of that without offering any firm concrete advice which i would say a lot of people don't like that a lot of people are like well just tell me what to do but i'm i try to make a point in the beginning same with my first book psychology of money of i can't tell you what to do because i don't know you and what's what's right for you is going to be maybe not right for me you have to figure it out for yourself but i can tell you what's probably going through your head as you're going on that journey i can tell you about what the psychological pitfalls and challenges and advice of that is that is psychological it's not what you should do but here's how most people and why most people fall for envy and why if you understand the mechanics of envy how silly it can be that's that's what the book dives into

段落2：你正在写一本新书，我非常期待这本书的出版。什么时候出版呢？2025年9月？好吧，那还得等一段时间。你愿意分享一些你在思考的内容吗，或者我们可以期待在书中看到些什么？是的，我觉得书中的一些内容是我们今天讨论过的。这本书叫《花钱的艺术》，我刻意没有叫它《花钱的科学》，因为花钱并不是一种科学，它不是一个适用于所有人的公式，而是一种艺术。那么什么是艺术呢？艺术对每个人来说都是不同的，是主观的，常常是矛盾的。我认为适当的花钱方式应该就是这样的。所以在书中我没有说你该如何花钱，因为我认为没有人能准确地对广大读者这样说。这本书探讨了嫉妒心理、与邻居攀比的心理、社会抱负、身份认同、管理金钱和养育子女、羡慕别人以及渴望获得注意力的心理，而不是提供任何确切的建议。我知道很多人不喜欢这种方式，他们希望我直接告诉他们该怎么做。但我试图在一开始就明确说明，就像我第一本书《金钱心理学》中说的那样，我不能告诉你该怎么做，因为我不了解你，适合你的可能不适合我。你需要自己去探索，但我可以告诉你，在这个过程中，你的头脑中可能会出现什么。我可以告诉你那些心理上的陷阱、挑战和建议是什么。这不是告诉你该怎么做，而是大多数人如何以及为何会被嫉妒心理左右，以及如果你理解了嫉妒心理运作的机制，它会显得多么荒谬。这就是这本书所探讨的内容。

Paragraph 1: yeah in a lot of ways what sounds like you're describing is um kind of identifying the sources of self-seduction yeah where we we by virtue of social media or just by virtue of being human we compare what we have to see if it really is what it is uh you would think that we would be pretty good as a species at just experiencing things kind of like the dog sitting next to the lake given that we can understand that we have this propensity to you know compare and um to regret things of past but not be able to anticipate future regret you'd think we would be we would be better at that but clearly we're not well this i guess this gets back to basic evolution evolution doesn't care if you're happy it cares that you reproduce and you grow over time that's that's what it's maximizing for doesn't really care whether you have a good time during the process make more of yourself and take care of the young and then you're dispensable keep going Louisiana case says more of me that's that's what we're trying to do and and and whether you're happy or not doesn't doesn't really play into the situation and actually might reward the person who is gaining a ton of resources even if they're miserable in the process who's making a ton of money in the process even if they wake up miserable every morning they're getting a lot of resources that might increase their their fitness over time happiness doesn't play much of a role

在很多方面，你所描述的似乎是在识别自我诱惑的根源。通过社交媒体，或者仅仅因为人性，我们常常会对比自己所拥有的东西，看看它们是否真实。我们理应能够像湖边的狗那样专注于体验事物，但人类有比较和后悔过去的倾向，却无法预测未来的后悔。照理说，我们应该更擅长于此，但显然不是这样。 这可以追溯到基本的进化理论。进化并不关心你是否快乐，它只关心你是否繁衍并在时间中成长——这才是它所优化的目标。进化并不在乎你在这个过程中是否享受乐趣，只是在乎你能否繁衍更多后代并抚育子孙。在完成这些后，你基本就可有可无了。 大自然简单地鼓励我们繁衍，快乐与否并不在考虑之列。甚至可能会奖励那些即使在过程中感到痛苦，但却获得大量资源的人。即使他们每天醒来感到不快，他们积累了大量资源，这可能提高他们的适应能力。因此，幸福在这个过程中所扮演的角色并不大。

Paragraph 1: do you think birth rates are going down because um people feel that they have to use more of what they earn for themselves or that it's harder to establish a relationship to money and resources that makes them feel capable of taking care of others i think it's it's so complex it doesn't lead to simple answers but i think there is a lot of evidence that what happens why societies all over the world this has always been the case have fewer kids when they become wealthier is because their expectations for those kids go up so if you're living in a in a poor society poor economy or during a poor era you could have 10 kids because you knew all 10 of those kids or at least the ones who survived we're going to become farmers that's what they were going to do and uh that was that was their only hope that was all they could do and you didn't need to provide a lot of resources for them if i give them basic food and shelter and clothes that's all they need to become a farmer and i think if you fast forward to today's economy the expectations are so much so much higher you want your kid to become a phd to become an astronaut become a hedge fund whatever it might be and there because of that you need to provide so much more resources for that kid i need to foster their growth and development from the time that they are infants and provide them tutors and after school activity is and maybe send them to private school and definitely send them to a college which is going to cost a fortune because the expectations for what you need to provide are so much higher you feel like you can only provide that to maybe one maybe two kids which would have been a couple generations ago three or four kids and a couple generations before that 10 kids there's also a very grim statistic about it used to be why do people used to have 10 kids because six of them died before they were five and so if you needed those hands on the farm you needed to have a lot of kids make sure you had a lot of teenagers who could help you one day and so i think we're blessed to now live in a world where thankfully the infant mortality rate has collapsed so much that we don't need to play that lottery game that we used to what are you teaching your kids about money and at what age should we start to do that and for those listening who don't have kids i suppose it's never too late to learn

你认为出生率下降是因为人们觉得他们必须更多地将收入用于自己，还是因为他们难以建立与金钱和资源的关系，从而让他们觉得有能力照顾他人？我认为这是一个非常复杂的问题，没有简单的答案。但是，有很多证据表明，世界各地的社会在变得更富裕时普遍生育更少的孩子，这是因为对孩子的期望提高了。 如果你生活在一个贫穷的社会或经济困难时期，你可能会有10个孩子，因为你知道这10个孩子（或者至少是存活下来的那些）会成为农民。这是他们唯一能做的事情，只需提供基本的食物、住所和衣服，就足以让他们成为农民。 如果你快进到今天的经济环境，对孩子的期望已经高得多。你希望你的孩子成为博士、宇航员或对冲基金经理等。不论是什么职业，因此你需要为他们提供更多的资源。你需要从他们婴幼儿时期开始培养他们的发展，提供家教和课外活动，可能还要送他们去私立学校，肯定要送他们上大学，而这将花费一大笔钱。因为对你需要提供的东西的期望大大提高了，所以你觉得自己可能只能负担得起一个或两个孩子，这在几代前可能是三四个孩子，而再早几代可能是10个孩子。 还有一个严酷的统计数据，以前人们之所以生10个孩子，是因为其中六个在5岁之前就去世了。因此，如果你需要很多人手来务农，就需要多生孩子，以确保将来有足够的青少年来帮忙。值得庆幸的是，现在婴儿死亡率大幅下降，我们不再需要像过去那样“赌博”地生很多孩子。你在教孩子们关于金钱的什么知识？我们应该从什么年龄开始教育他们？对于那些没有孩子的人来说，我想学习理财知识永远不会太晚。

i think one of the points i always make, that i've learned the hard way parenting, is that i don't think you need to sit your kids down and teach them about money because they're paying attention. whether you know it or not, kids are so incredibly good at learning. they're better at learning than adults are, particularly for things like language. but you don't need to sit your kids down and say "this is how much we spend" and "this is what we value" and "this is why". i say they're paying attention, they're figuring it out. every time they hear you say "i can't afford this", every time we're at the store and they say "oh look, this is on sale, let's get two of these", they're making a mental note of everything. every time they hear you bicker about work, every time they hear you talk about a raise, even if it's just in the next room, they're piecing it all together.

我一直认为，这一点是我在养育孩子的过程中通过艰难的方式学到的，那就是你不需要专门坐下来教孩子关于金钱的事情，因为他们在注意观察。无论你是否意识到，孩子的学习能力都非常强。他们学习得比成年人更好，尤其是在语言等方面。但你不需要特意坐下来告诉他们“我们花了多少钱”、“我们的价值观是什么”、“为什么如此”等等。我认为他们在观察，他们在自我总结。每次他们听到你说“我买不起这个”，每次我们在商店时他们说“哦，看，这个打折了，我们买两个吧”，他们都在心中记下这些点滴。每当他们听到你抱怨工作，听到你谈论加薪，即使他们只是隔着一个房间，他们都在把这些信息拼凑起来。

And i don't think they even know it, but they're so good at learning that they're building a mental model. and so, even if you never sit your kids down and teach them, by the time they're teenagers, they know a lot about money. and maybe some of those things are good moves, and some are bad, but they're paying attention. and so, i think the only thing you can do as a kid, or as a parent, I should say, is to lead by example. because we talked about this earlier, the propensity to rebel as a kid, as a teenager. you talked about the smoking ads where they just wanted to do the opposite of what everyone else is doing. i think particularly for teenagers, which i don't have yet, but if you sit them down and say "this is what you should do, you should always do this, you should never do that", their propensity to rebel is enormous.

我觉得他们可能自己都没意识到，但他们非常擅长学习，并在头脑中构建了一个模型。所以，即使你从来不特意坐下来教他们，当他们成为青少年的时候，他们已经对金钱有了很多了解。可能其中有些是不错的做法，也可能有些是不好的做法，但他们在关注。因此，我认为作为孩子，或者更确切地说，作为父母，你唯一能做的就是以身作则。因为我们之前谈到过，孩子，尤其是青少年，倾向于叛逆。你提到过那些关于吸烟的广告，孩子们往往只想做与大家相反的事情。我觉得对于青少年来说，如果你强迫他们坐下来说“你应该这样做，你必须这样永远这样做，绝不能那样做”，他们内心叛逆的倾向会非常强烈。

so i think it can backfire if you try to teach them. i think the best you can do, the only thing you can do, is lead by example. with people, one thing that a lot of not just very wealthy people, but moderately wealthy people, will say is, or ask is, "how do I teach my kids about money without spoiling?" and "how do I use my money to help my kids without spoiling them?" that's a big topic for a lot of people, even if you're like a middle class family. how do i, you know, leave a small inheritance, or help my kids? should i buy them a new car, or should i help them through college? i think a big thing that is easy to overlook these two things. you might think, as a parent, that you are teaching your kid grit and independence by withholding resources from them.

我认为如果你试图教他们可能会适得其反。我认为你能做的最好，也是唯一能做的，就是以身作则。对于很多人来说，尤其是那些不仅是非常富有的人，甚至适度富裕的人来说，会问这样的问题："我如何在不宠坏孩子的情况下教他们金钱观？"以及"我如何用我的钱帮助孩子而不宠坏他们？" 这对很多人来说都是一个重要话题，即使对于中产家庭也是如此。比如，如何留下小笔遗产，或者如何帮助孩子？我该给他们买辆新车，还是资助他们上大学？我认为有两件事情很容易被忽视。作为父母，你可能认为通过不给孩子提供资源是在教他们坚韧和独立。

and you're doing it with very well intentioned "you need to earn your money, and this is mine, you gotta go figure out your own." i think it is very easy to overlook that you are not teaching your kid independence and grit. you're teaching them to resent you. and i have a good friend, chris davis, who told the story. you know, he's an extreme example. chris davis' grandfather is shelby davis, who is a billionaire investor, one of the greatest investors of all time. and chris tells a story that when he was a kid, and his grandfather took him skiing, his grandfather would say "if you want me to buy you a lift ticket, you need to hike up the hill first and ski down. hike to the top, and if you do that, then I'll buy you a lift ticket." and chris said the lesson that they learned from that was not grit, and independence, and hard work. the lesson they learned from it was "grandpa's kind of a jerk sometimes." and it's, i think that's an extreme example, but you see that a lot with kids. one like very practical takeaway from this is that, i think as a parent, you have to live the same lifestyle as your kids. it's very difficult to say "mom and dad fly first class, but you're back in coach." does anyone actually do that? oh, absolutely. maybe that's still a very extreme example, but what you think as a parent, that the kid is learning, is "oh, if i work as hard as mom and dad, one day i'll be sitting up there", and they don't. the lesson they learn is "mom and dad think they are superior to us," or "mom and dad are superior to me" i'm inferior to them i think this is why you see a lot of very wealthy kids who are just psychologically broken because i think and you have well-meaning parents who are like look we're very wealthy but you're not you got to earn your way and all the kid hears throughout their life is i'm inferior i'm inferior i'm inferior i'm inferior and by the time they become adults that's it's so ingrained into who they are that they can't take a step forward they can't advocate for themselves and so look that's that's what the very wealthy deal with but i think that's that's what i think a lot about with kids

翻译如下： "当你用非常善意的方式对孩子说，'你需要挣钱，这是我的钱，你得自己去想办法。' 我认为很容易忽略的是，你并没有教会孩子独立和坚韧，而是让他们对你心生怨恨。我有一个好朋友，克里斯·戴维斯，他讲过一个故事。他是个极端的例子。克里斯·戴维斯的祖父是谢尔比·戴维斯，他是一位亿万富翁投资者，也是史上最伟大的投资者之一。克里斯讲过一个故事，说他小时候和祖父去滑雪，祖父会对他说，'如果你想让我给你买缆车票，你得先自己爬上山，然后滑下来。爬到山顶，如果你做到了，我才给你买票。' 克里斯说，他们从中学到的不是坚韧、独立和勤奋工作的精神，而是“有时候爷爷就是个讨厌鬼。” 我认为这是个极端的例子，但在孩子身上经常能看到类似情况。 一个非常实际的教训是，我认为作为父母，你必须和孩子过相同的生活方式。很难对孩子说，“爸妈坐头等舱，你坐经济舱。” 有没有人真的这样做？当然有。也许这是个很极端的例子，但父母可能认为孩子会学到的是，“哦，如果我像爸妈一样努力工作，总有一天我会坐到前面去。”其实不然，孩子学到的是，“爸妈认为他们比我们优越”或者“爸妈比我优越”，我不如他们。这就是你会看到很多富家子弟心理崩溃的原因。我认为，因为你有好心的父母，他们会说，‘看，我们很富有，但你不是，你得自己努力。’ 孩子从小到大听到的都是‘我不如人，我不如人，我不如人’，等他们成年后，这种观念已经深深扎根于他们的内心，让他们无法向前迈步，无法为自己争取。 因此，这就是富人的烦恼，但我认为很多孩子都有这样的问题。”

the other thing that every parent with more than one kid will understand and recognize this my two kids are could not be more different their personalities their goals uh even with the same parents living under the same roof they are roof they're a million miles apart and so had if you say had like what what are you teaching your kids like i i don't know who they're going to be when they grow up i don't know what their goals or their aspirations are going to be so is it right for me to tell my daughter like oh here's how you can save and become super wealthy over time what if she doesn't want to live that life what if she does have more of a yolo personality of like oh i just want to go travel the world i don't i have no aspirations to become super wealthy and retire early uh so you have to let them them figure it out for themselves and realize that what might be right for you and what may have been right for the era in which you and i grew up in might not be right for them it might not fit the era that they were open i like this saying um none of us know what it's like to be you know picking age 13 years old in 2024 we think we do because we were 13 years old at one point your earlier descriptions of depriving kids of the first class ticket um putting them in coach and and the parents flying in first class it makes me realize that we like to think that those sorts of things will drive integration of the lesson but each one of your examples pointed to the fact that kids are integrating based on the emotion they experience at the time they're not thinking about the larger lesson they're thinking about they're in there in their moment they're thinking i'm hiking up this hill and this sucks and they're not piecing together things over time like okay i'm doing this and he's trying to teach me a lesson right there it's really uh they're very attached to their immediate feelings right and maybe it would be different in chris davis's example if the grandpa hiked up the hill with them because then the lesson you're taking is like oh we're going to do this together and and that is teaching the value of hard work i'm going to do it with you i'm going to suffer with you so leading by example rather than by humiliation i think is the way to do it with kids

每个有不止一个孩子的家长都能理解和认同这一点：我的两个孩子实在是太不一样了。尽管住在同一个屋檐下，性格和目标截然不同，他们简直像来自两个不同的世界。因此，当有人问我在教孩子什么的时候，我总会想：我不知道他们长大后会成为什么样的人，不知道他们的目标和理想会是什么。所以，我是否真的应该告诉我的女儿，比如说“你应该怎么储蓄并逐渐变得富有”？万一她并不想过那种生活呢？如果她是那种追求“活在当下”的人，只想环游世界，对提早退休变得富有没有任何兴趣呢？ 因此，你得让孩子自己摸索，明白对你来说正确的东西，以及在你成长的时代正确的东西，未必适合他们或当下的时代。我喜欢这句话：“我们没人知道在2024年13岁意味着什么。”我们以为了解，因为我们也曾13岁过。你提到剥夺孩子坐头等舱的机会，让他们坐经济舱，而父母坐头等舱，这让我意识到，我们倾向于认为这些事情会让孩子学到一些道理，但实际上，他们更关注当时的情绪，而不是所谓的深层次教训。 正如你所说的例子，孩子们会记得当下的感受，比如他们在爬山，觉得很辛苦，而不是从中反思：哦，他在教给我一个道理。他们更容易被即时的感受所左右。也许如果爷爷和他们一起爬山，情况会不同。这样，他们会明白“我们一起做这件事”，这教会了他们努力工作的价值，通过以身作则，而不是羞辱，才是教导孩子的正确方式。

when i was a kid um my dad used to walk me to this point along our street where then he would split off to go to work he was a scientist he would go to his laboratory and i'd go off to to kindergarten in first grade and i remember one day asking him what he did for a living and uh he's a physicist and uh and he said well i'm a physicist and i said what's that and he explained a little bit about what it was and i'll never forget we still talk about this he and i i'll never forget um i said do you like it and he said will you know that feeling the night before your birthday? said yeah and he said i feel like that every day and then i think he also said and i'm still a little bit murky on this one i need to touch base with him about this sometime again soon because he said yeah you don't always get presents it doesn't always work out but the feeling that you might or that you're likely going to or there's a possibility that just feels so good and i think i must have internalized that lesson because what i like is work yeah i don't think i'm addicted to work although some in my life have accused me of that um then i'm willing to be open to that possibility but it wasn't even really about discovery it was about the possibility of discovery and so i i think in terms of teaching to kids and teaching to peers and you know teaching among humans getting people in to think about the verb states that really motivate them from the best place seems to be the kind of general theme throughout today's discussion and in your book somewhat

当我还是个孩子的时候，我爸爸常常带我走到我们街上的一个地方，然后他就会去上班，他是一位科学家，会去他的实验室，而我则去幼儿园或一年级上学。我记得有一天，我问他是做什么工作的，他说他是物理学家。我问他那是什么，他就简单地解释了一下。我永远忘不了，我问他喜不喜欢这份工作，他说：“你知道生日的前一天晚上那种感觉吗？”我说知道。他说：“我每天都感觉那样。”然后，我记得他还说过一句话，虽然现在记得有点模糊，我需要找个时间再和他确认一下，因为他说：“是的，你不总能收到礼物，它不总是能如愿以偿，但那种可能得到的感觉——或者可能会有好事发生的感觉——就是如此之美好。”我想我一定是吸收了这个教训，因为我喜欢的是工作。我并不认为自己对工作上瘾，尽管生活中的一些人指责我这样，不过我愿意接受这种可能。但关键并不在于真正的发现，而在于发现的可能性。所以，我认为无论是在教小孩、教同行，还是在人与人之间相互学习时，让大家去思考那些能从最佳状态激励他们的动词似乎是今天讨论的一个普遍主题，也在你的书中有所体现。

i'm not trying to summarize it to to find a point here but if i may it seems like and what Rick Rubin has said about you know him he has this like just supernatural track record at bringing out the best creative elements in people from different genres of music it seems to be about tapping into these verb states of like what is the thing that brings out your best as opposed to thinking about the rewards that come from that but it's hard right we we see those numbers we see those the followers the dollars etc we see the metrics of comparison it's tough it's it's it's there's a work to this that is not obvious i think it'll always be like that we're never going to live in a world where people don't compare themselves to others we're never going to live in a world where people don't feel inadequate to others who have more than them but back to kids i think this is a great place to place this together if you ask most parents what do you want for your kids most parents will say i just wanted to be happy i just hope i'd hope i hope they're happy one day and then if you said well do you hope that your children are rich and successful parents might say like yeah but mainly just happy like i just wanted to be happy regardless of what they're doing if they're at a kindergarten teacher i want to be happy and i think um the parents themselves say that because they haven't done that themselves because the parents themselves have chased money over happiness and they see the downside of it and i that's that's very common and that's why they say i i hope my kid does this because i haven't done a good job of that myself because the temptation is to do that is to pursue something that's not going to make you is going to make you richer but not necessarily happier

我不是想总结或者找到一个明确的观点，但如果可以这样说的话，看起来瑞克·鲁宾所说的，他在帮助不同类型的音乐艺术家激发出最好的创造力方面有着超乎寻常的成功记录。这似乎涉及到触及某种状态，就是找到真正能激发你最好水平的东西，而不是去考虑从中获得的回报。这其实很难，因为我们总是看见那些数据，比如粉丝数、金钱等各种比较指标。确实是有一种不太明显的努力在其中，我觉得这种情况会一直存在。我们永远无法生活在一个没有人和他人比较的世界里，也无法生活在一个没有人感到自己比不上拥有更多的人。在孩子的问题上，其实这恰恰是个可以一起讨论的好点子。如果你问大多数父母希望孩子将来怎样，大多数父母会说：“我只希望他们快乐。”他们可能会说希望孩子富有和成功，但主要还是希望他们快乐，无论他们做什么，是幼儿园老师也好，只要快乐就好。我认为父母这么说，是因为他们自己没能做到这一点。他们在金钱和幸福之间选择了追求金钱，并看到了其中的弊端。这种情况很常见，所以他们会说：“我希望我的孩子这样，因为我自己没有做好，因为诱惑总是在，去追求一些不会让你更快乐的东西，即使它会让你更富有。”

Now that's not an argument against money or working hard which I want to do. I want to work hard and make money and have more money of course. But I think there's such a stark difference between using money as a tool to make yourself happier versus as a yardstick to compare yourself against others by. And so much in the modern world is the latter. We're not using money to make ourselves happier or freer or more independent or to sleep better or to spend more time with the people we enjoy. We use money to measure ourselves against other people. It's just "do I have more than you? Is my car faster than yours? Is my house bigger than yours?" And all of that is completely separated from what we actually want for our kids and ultimately for ourselves, which is, can I use this to become happier and live a better life? What a wild concept, but it seems just spot on. So we need to think about money a little differently, or a lot differently, if we are to get the most satisfaction from our work and from the resources it requires.

这并不是反对金钱或努力工作的意思，我当然想努力工作并赚钱，想要更多的钱。但我认为，用金钱来让自己更快乐和以金钱作为比较他人的标尺之间有很大的区别。现代社会中的很多情况都是后者。我们没有用金钱来让自己更快乐、更自由、更独立、睡得更好，或者花更多时间和我们喜欢的人在一起。我们用金钱来衡量自己是否胜过他人。这就是“我比你有钱吗？我的车比你的快吗？我的房子比你的大吗？”但这一切与我们真正想要给孩子的、终归是给我们自己的东西完全无关，那就是，能否利用这些让自己更快乐并过上更好的生活。这真是个奇思妙想，但却完全正确。所以，如果我们想从工作和付出的资源中获得最大的满足，我们需要对金钱有些不同的看法，甚至是很大的不同。

A lot of looking in the mirror and just saying, like, who am I and what do I want? I think that's the biggest thing, particularly when we started this conversation by saying everybody's different, what's right for me is not right for you inherent in that is that you have to understand yourself, and a lot of people, a lot of financial damage is done when people have a financial plan that is right for another person but it's wrong for them. And that's dangerous because it's the right financial plan maybe for a lot of other people so it makes sense, it's rational, it makes sense on paper, on the spreadsheet looks good but it doesn't fit your personality that's when a lot of damage is done. So I think to do better with money, you need to spend a lot of time thinking about who you are and your family and your goals and your aspirations realizing that all those things will change and adapt over time. So what was right for you ten years ago might not be right today.

这段话的意思是，我们需要花时间思考自己是谁，以及我们真正想要什么。这是最重要的一点，尤其是当我们开始讨论每个人都不一样时，对我合适的东西可能对你并不合适。这其中的关键在于你必须了解自己。很多人在制定财务计划时，选择了适合他人的方案，却不适合自己，结果造成了财务上的损失。这是很危险的，因为某个财务计划可能对很多人是合理的，看起来也很有道理，甚至在纸上或电子表格上效果很好，但如果和你的个性不匹配，就容易出问题。因此，为了更好地管理金钱，你需要花大量时间思考你是谁、你的家庭、你的目标和愿望，并意识到这些都会随着时间改变。所以，十年前适合你的东西，可能今天就不再合适了。

You know in a way that might seem selfish like tuning out the rest of the world and tuning out other people and co-workers and neighbors and whatnot and being just saying how can I use this as a tool to become happier, to live a little better life? Like what's the purpose of money if it's not that? I love it well more and thank you so much for doing the work that you do. It's an incredibly unique perspective on this thing that we all have to deal with, grapple with, and hopefully can develop a symbiotic relationship with money. And it's clear from talking to you today and also from reading your book that you know that there's a strong central chord of benevolence in all of this. I don't know if that was your intent, it seems to just come through and who you are but when I read your book and as we talk today it's just so clear like that you want the best for people.

在某种程度上，这听起来可能有点自私，比如对外界、对他人、对同事和邻居视而不见，而只是思考如何利用钱作为工具让自己变得更快乐，更好地生活。否则，金钱的意义又是什么呢？我非常喜欢这个观点，谢谢你所做的工作。你在这个我们都需要面对、处理，并希望能建立起一种互惠关系的事物上，提供了一个极具独特性的视角。通过我们今天的交流以及阅读你的书，我能够清楚地感受到，善意是这一切的核心。我不知道这是否是你的初衷，但从你的为人以及你的书中，这一点自然而然地显现出来——你是真心希望人们能够更好。

So I think that's an important thing to highlight because there are a lot of people out there telling people how to make money, what to do or not to do with their money but you're telling us how to live more meaningful lives which is something just in order of magnitude more important so for that and the work that you've done and that you're doing I'm eagerly anticipating your book next September. And for coming here today to educate us thank you ever so much. This has been so much fun. Thank you Edger, thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Morgan Housel. To learn more about Morgan's work and to find links to his two superb books, The Psychology of Money and Same as Ever, please see the links in the show note captions

所以，我认为这是一个重要的事情，需要强调一下，因为有很多人都在告诉别人如何赚钱，或者该如何处置他们的钱，而你却在告诉我们如何过上更有意义的生活，这比赚钱重要得多。因此，我非常期待你明年九月的新书。也非常感谢你今天来这里为我们分享知识。这次交流真的很有趣。感谢埃杰，感谢你加入我与摩根·豪斯尔的今天讨论。想要了解更多关于摩根的工作，并获取他两本出色的书《金钱心理学》和《一如既往》的链接，请查看节目注释中的链接。

If you're learning from or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.

如果你在学习或享受这个播客的内容，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是一种支持我们的绝佳方式，而且不花一分钱。此外，请在Spotify和Apple上关注我们的播客。在这两个平台上，你都可以给我们留下最高五颗星的评价。请查看今天节目开头和过程中提到的赞助商。支持赞助商是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Hubremen Lab podcast please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled "Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body". This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation and of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

如果你对播客、嘉宾或希望我在Huberman Lab播客中考虑的话题有疑问或评论，请在YouTube的评论区留言，我会阅读所有评论。对于那些还不知道的人，我有一本新书即将出版。这是我的第一本书，书名是《人体的协议和操作手册》。这本书是我花费五年以上时间写成的，基于我超过30年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼到压力控制、专注和动力相关的协议。当然，我也提供了这些协议背后的科学依据。

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors you can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called "Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body". If you're not already following me on social media I am Hubremen. lab on all social media platforms so that's instagram x formerly known as twitter threads facebook and linkedin and on all those platforms i discuss science and science related tools some of which overlaps with the content of the hubremen lab podcast but much of which is distinct from the content on the hubremen lab podcast again that's hubremen lab on all social media platforms.

这本书现已在 protocolsbook.com 进行预售。在那里你可以找到多个供应商的链接，选择你最喜欢的购买方式。这本书名叫《人体操作手册》。如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有平台上的用户名都是 Hubremen Lab，包括 Instagram、X（前称为 Twitter）、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中部分内容与 Hubremen Lab 播客的内容有重叠，但也有很多是播客里没有的。再次提醒，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名都是 Hubremen Lab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter our neural network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three page pdfs those one to three page pdfs cover things like deliberate heat exposure deliberate cold exposure we have a foundational fitness protocol we also have protocols for optimizing your sleep dopamine and much more again all available completely zero cost simply go to hubremen lab dot com go to the menu tab scroll down to newsletter and provide your email we do not share your email with anybody.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，值得一试。我们的神经网络通讯是一份免费的月刊，其中包括播客摘要和简短的1到3页PDF协议。这些PDF覆盖了有意的热暴露、冷暴露等话题，我们还有基础健身协议，以及优化睡眠、提高多巴胺水平等内容。而且，这些内容都是完全免费的。只需访问hubremen lab.com，点击菜单选项，向下滚动到通讯部分，提供您的电子邮箱即可。我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮箱。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with morgan housel and last but certainly not least thank you for your interest in science.

感谢您再次加入我与摩根·豪塞尔的今日讨论，最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。