Javier Milei: President of Argentina - Freedom, Economics, and Corruption | Lex Fridman Podcast #453
发布时间 2024-11-19 19:08:35 来源
摘要
Javier Milei is the President of Argentina. This episode is available in both English and Spanish. Thank you for listening ❤ Check ...
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中英文字稿 
So, what is the difference between a madman and a genius? Success. The following is a conversation with Javier Malay, the president of Argentina. He is a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist, and economist who campaigned with the chainsaw that symbolized his promise to slash the corrupt bureaucracy of the state. He stepped into the presidency one year ago, with a country on the brink of hyperinflation, deep in debt, and suffering, for mass unemployment and poverty. He took this crisis head-on, transforming one of Latin America's largest economies through pure free market principles. In just a few months in office, he already achieved Argentina's first fiscal surplus in 16 years, and not just avoided hyperinflation, but brought inflation down to its lowest in three years. We discussed all of this in detail, both the successes and the challenges. His depth of knowledge of economic principles, metrics, and data was truly impressive, and refreshing to hear from a world leader.
那么，疯子和天才之间的区别是什么呢？是成功。以下是与阿根廷总统哈维尔·马莱的一次对话。他是一名自由主义者、无政府资本主义者和经济学家，他的竞选标志是一把链锯，象征着他承诺要大幅削减国家的腐败官僚机构。他在一年前就任总统，当时国家濒临恶性通货膨胀，债台高筑，并面临大规模失业和贫困。他迎难而上，通过纯自由市场原则转变了拉丁美洲最大的经济体之一。仅在上任几个月后，他就实现了阿根廷16年来的首次财政盈余，不仅避免了恶性通货膨胀，还将通货膨胀率降到了三年来的最低点。我们详细讨论了这一切，包括成功和挑战。他对经济原则、指标和数据的深刻理解令我印象深刻，也让人耳目一新，尤其是在一位世界领导人中。
But even bigger than the economic transformation of Argentina, Javier represents the universal fight against government corruption and the fight for freedom. Economic freedom, political freedom, and freedom of speech. He has many critics, many of whom, a part of the corrupt establishment, he is seeking to dismantle. But many are simply Argentinian citizens, scared of the pain his radical policies may bring, at least in the short term. But whether one disagrees with his methods or not, no one could deny that his presidency marks one of the most ambitious attempts at economic transformation in modern history. And that Javier Malay is truly a force of nature, combining the rigor of an economist with the passion of a revolutionary, in the fight for freedom, of a nation he loves. Argentina is one of my favorite countries, so I sincerely hope he succeeds.
尽管阿根廷的经济转型意义非凡，哈维尔更是代表着全球对抗政府腐败和争取自由的斗争。他倡导经济自由、政治自由和言论自由。哈维尔有众多批评者，其中许多人是他试图打破的腐败体制的一部分。但也有许多只是普通的阿根廷公民，他们担心他激进政策可能在短期内带来的痛苦。不过，无论是否反对他的手段，没有人能否认他的总统任期标志着现代历史上最具雄心的经济转型尝试之一。哈维尔·马莱结合了经济学家的严谨和革命者的激情，为他所深爱的国家争取自由。他是一股真正的自然力量。阿根廷是我最喜欢的国家之一，所以我真心希望他能成功。
This interview was conducted with the president speaking Spanish and me speaking English with an interpreter simultaneously translating. We make the episode available, overdubbed, and subtitled in both English and Spanish, thanks to our great friends at 11 Labs. If you're watching on YouTube, you can switch between English and Spanish by clicking the gear icon, selecting audio track, and then choosing the language. Same with the captions. If you're watching on X, I'll post both Spanish and English versions separately. If you're watching on Spotify or listening elsewhere, I'll probably only post the English version. This is the first time for me doing something like this in a foreign language. It was challenging, but illuminating.
这段采访是我用英语与西班牙语对话的总统交流，翻译人员同步翻译。多亏了11 Labs的好朋友们，我们将这一集提供了英语和西班牙语配音版以及字幕版。如果您在YouTube上观看，可以通过点击设置图标来切换英语和西班牙语，选择音轨，然后选择语言，字幕也是一样。如果您在X上观看，我将分别发布西班牙语和英语版本。如果您在Spotify上观看或者在其他地方收听，我可能只发布英语版本。这是我第一次用外语做这样的事情，既具有挑战性，也很有启发。
I hope to continue talking to many world leaders for two to three hours in this way, including Valatomer Zelensky, Valatomer Putin, the Render Modi, and Xi Jinping. I want to explore who they are, how they think, and how they hope to help their country and humanity flourish. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Javier Malay. When did you first understand the value of freedom, especially economic freedom?
我希望以这种方式继续与许多世界领导人进行两到三个小时的对话，包括瓦拉托尔·泽连斯基、瓦拉托尔·普京、纳伦德拉·莫迪和习近平。我想探索他们是谁，他们如何思考，以及他们希望如何帮助他们的国家和全人类繁荣。这是《莱克斯·弗里德曼播客》。如果您想支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在，亲爱的朋友们，这里是哈维尔·米莱。当您第一次理解自由的价值，特别是经济自由的价值时，是在什么时候？
Well, actually, I came to understand the ideas of freedom as an economic growth specialist back in the years of 2013 to 2014. I could see that per capita GDP statistics over the last 2000 years of the Christian era essentially looked like a hockey stick, indicating that per capita GDP remained almost constant until around 1800, after which it accelerated sharply. In the same context of that phenomenal increase in productivity and per capita GDP, the population had multiplied sevenfold over the preceding 200 years. So basically, in economics, that means you get increasing returns and the presence of increasing returns implies the existence of monopolies, concentrated structures, and according to traditional neoclassical economic theory, the presence of monopolies and concentrated structures is not a good thing.
实际上，我在2013到2014年作为经济增长专家时，开始理解自由的概念。我观察到，在基督教纪元的过去2000年里，人均GDP的统计数据看起来像一支冰球杆，显示在人均GDP在大约1800年之前几乎保持不变，从那以后则急剧增加。在这种生产力和人均GDP显著增长的背景下，人口在之前的200年里增加了七倍。基本上，在经济学中，这意味着收益递增，而收益递增的存在意味着垄断和集中的结构存在，并且根据传统的新古典经济理论，垄断和结构集中并不是好事。
But at the same time, one could see that living standards had increased tremendously and that middle-income people ended up living far better than emperors did in the Roman era. And the population had gone from having 95 percent of people in extreme poverty to less than 10 percent. And in that context, the question was how it could be that something that had lifted so many people out of poverty, that it improved human condition so much, could be something bad for economic theory, meaning something was not right.
同时，人们可以看到生活水平有了极大的提高，中等收入的人过上了比罗马时代皇帝更好的生活。而且，人们的生活状况从95%处于极端贫困减少到了不到10%。在这种情况下，问题在于，是什么让这么多人摆脱贫困，使人类状况改善如此之多的事情，在经济理论上仍然被视为有问题，这意味着某些地方不对劲。
So in that context, I remember that one of the people who worked on my team suggested I read an article by Murray Newton Rothbard called Monopoly and Competition. I remember reading it like it was today. And after reading it carefully, I said, everything I've taught about market structure in the last 20 years in courses on microeconomics is wrong. This caused a very strong internal commotion in me, so I called this person who used to work with me and they recommended a place to buy Austrian School of Economics books. And I remember I bought at least 20 or 30 books, which I went to pick up one Saturday afternoon.
在这个背景下，我记得我的一个团队成员建议我读一篇由默里·纽顿·罗斯巴德（Murray Newton Rothbard）撰写的文章，题目是《垄断与竞争》。我记得当时读这篇文章时，感觉就像是今天发生的事情。在仔细阅读之后，我意识到，在过去20年教授微观经济学课程中所传授的有关市场结构的观点都是错误的。这让我内心非常震动，因此我联系了曾经和我一起工作过的人，他们推荐了一个可以买奥地利经济学派书籍的地方。我记得我买了至少20到30本书，某个星期六下午亲自去取。
And when I visited the bookstore, I was fascinated by all the stuff they had there. So I went back the next day and I started calculating how much money I needed to pay for my dog's food. That's my four-legged child and how much I needed to spend on the taxi fare and food. And then with what I have left, I spent all of it on more books. And then I started to read very intensively. And I remember, for example, the experience of reading human action by Mises, and this was a book that I didn't know about.
当我去书店的时候，我被那里的各种东西吸引住了。第二天我又去了，并开始计算我需要花多少钱给我的狗买食物。它是我四条腿的孩子。我还计算了打车费和吃饭的钱。在剩下的钱中，我把所有的都用来买更多的书。然后我开始非常投入地阅读。我记得，例如，阅读米塞斯的《人的行为》的经历，这本书是我以前不知道的。
And I remember that on the following weekend, I started to read this book right from the first page and I didn't stop until I finished it. And that was a true revolution in my head. And having the chance to read Austrian authors like Rothbard, Mises, Hayek, Hopé, and Jesus Huerta De Soto, or others like Juan Ramonralo, Philip Bagus, and Walter Block, for example. That was very inspirational.
我记得在接下来的那个周末，我从第一页开始读这本书，一直没停下来，直到读完。这在我脑海中引发了一场真正的革命。而且有机会阅读奥地利作家，如罗思巴德、米塞斯、哈耶克、霍普和胡安·萨托，或者其他作家如胡安·拉蒙·拉洛、菲利普·巴古斯和沃尔特·布洛克，他们的作品让我深受启发。
And at one point, I got the opportunity to read related to the works of Alberto Venegas Lincijo. And I also had the pleasure and honor to meet him. And today, we are actually friends. So that paved the way for me to approach the ideas of freedom. And another book that was a very significant influence and impact on me was the principles of political economics by Menger. It was truly eye-opening, or let's say for reading Ogunfonbium Bowerk. These were things that really challenged all of my former thinking. I had a vague idea and poor about the Austrian school.
有一次，我有机会阅读与阿尔韦托·维内加斯·林西霍作品相关的内容，而且我也有幸见到了他。如今，我们已经是朋友了。这让我更容易接触到自由理念。另一本对我影响深远的书是门格尔的《政治经济学原理》。这本书让我大开眼界，还有阅读奥根冯博姆巴维克的作品，这些都彻底挑战了我以前的想法。之前，我对奥地利学派只有一个模糊且不完整的印象。
The only thing I had read about the Austrian school until then had been money and time, a very good book by Garrison. But now that I understand a little bit more about Austrian economics, I know that it was rather poor, this doesn't mean that the book isn't good, but there were a whole lot of things to read that ended up being truly fascinating. So from that, what is now today, and maybe you can talk about the evolution, is your philosophy, economics philosophy.
在此之前，我唯一读过关于奥地利学派的书是加里森写的《货币与时间》，这是一部不错的作品。但现在我对奥地利经济学有了更多的了解，我发现那本书其实有一些不足。这并不是说那本书不好，而是还有很多其他的书籍值得阅读，最后让我觉得非常着迷。从那时起，到如今，你可以谈谈这一哲学和经济学理念的演变过程。
You've described yourself as an archocapitalist, market anarchist, libertarian, that's the ideal. And then maybe in practice and reality, you've said that you're more of a minarchist. So later on, what's your economics philosophy today? Strictly speaking, I am an anarcho-capitalist. I despise the state government. I despise violence. Let us suppose we take the definition of liberalism.
你把自己描述为无政府资本主义者、市场无政府主义者、自由意志主义者，这是你的理想。而在实践和现实中，你表示自己更倾向于最小国家主义者。那么后来，你的经济哲学是什么呢？严格来说，我是一个无政府资本主义者。我厌恶国家政府，也厌恶暴力。假设我们使用自由主义的定义。
I usually use the definition of liberalism given by Alberto Venegas Lincijo, which is very much in line with the definition of John Locke, which essentially matches the definition by Alberto Benegas Linci Jr., who said that liberalism is the unrestricted respect for the life project of others based on the principle of non-aggression and in defense of the right to life, liberty and property. So I frame all of the discussions within those terms. And the fact is that when you get to that notion, I would dare say that you become an anarcho-capitalist de facto.
我通常使用阿尔贝托·维内加斯·林希霍给出的自由主义定义，这一定义与约翰·洛克的定义非常一致，也基本符合阿尔贝托·贝内加斯·林希小的定义。他们认为，自由主义是基于不侵略原则，对他人生活计划的无限制尊重，并捍卫生命、自由和财产权利的理念。因此，我在讨论时都会以这些术语为框架。事实上，当你接受这个概念时，我敢说，你实际上会成为一个无政府资本主义者。
And what that describes, it is an idea which represents my ideal world. I mean, that is the ideal world. Now, real life poses a whole lot of restraints and some of those you can lift and those restrictions and others you can't. So, in real life, I am a minarchist. I advocate for minimizing state size. I try to remove as many regulations as possible. In fact, that is what I used to say during my campaign. And let's say that is what I'm now carrying out.
这段话描述了一个代表我理想世界的想法。我的意思是，这就是理想世界。然而，现实生活中有很多限制，有些限制可以解除，而有些则不能。所以，在现实生活中，我是一个最小国家主义者。我提倡尽量缩小国家规模，尽可能减少规章制度。事实上，这也是我在竞选期间常说的主张。现在可以说，我正在实践这一点。
We have just carried out the largest structural reform in Argentine history. It is a structural reform that is eight times larger than manimes, which had been the largest structural reform in history. And we did that with 15% of the representatives and 10% of the senators. Furthermore, we have a deregulation ministry where basically every day we eliminate between one and five regulations. On the other hand, we have 3,200 additional structural reforms pending to the point that the day we finish all these reforms, we will be the freest country on the planet with the consequences they have in terms of well-being. Think about this. When Ireland started market reforms just over 40 years ago, it was the poorest country in Europe. Today, its GDP per capita is 50% higher than that of the United States. So, I have a current situation. And what I am constantly looking for, whether from my academic works and my outreach notes and books, is the world we have today. That every day we are closer, that every day we gain more freedom, because there are some very interesting things here.
我们刚刚完成了阿根廷历史上最大的一次结构性改革。这次改革规模是历史上曾经最大的改革（Manimes）的八倍。而且，我们在只有15%代表和10%参议员的支持下达成了这一目标。此外，我们设立了一个去监管的部门，基本上每天都取消一到五项规定。另一方面，我们还有3,200项额外的结构性改革在继续推进中，最终我们完成了所有这些改革之后，我们将成为这个星球上最自由的国家，这将极大地提高国民的幸福感。想想看，爱尔兰在40多年前才开始市场改革，当时它是欧洲最穷的国家。如今，其人均GDP已经比美国高出50%。所以，我的现状就是如此。我不断地通过学术研究、宣传笔记和书籍，探索我们当今的世界。每天我们都离更大的自由更近一步，因为其中有许多非常有趣的东西。
First, I would like to quote Milton Friedman. There is a moment when they do an interview with Milton Friedman and they ask him about liberals. And then he says that there are three types of liberals. There are the classical liberals, where for example, Adam Smith or Milton Friedman himself could fit. Some say that Hayek could fit into that category. For me, Hayek is a minarchist. Then you have the minarchists, where you could clearly find in that place, Mises Hayek. One could find in philosophical terms, Nozick, and basically Ein Rand. And at one point, Milton Friedman based on his own son, he says, but if you look closely, there are some who are anarchists. Let's say, probably from my point of view, the person who has been the greatest inspiration in my life is essentially Murray, Newton, Rothbard. So therefore, there are two dimensions. One is where I want to go. And the topic is where I stand. So the most important thing is to try each day to advance further toward that ideal of anarcho-capitalism. In that sense, sometimes we face strong and harsh criticism regarding that ideal vision. I think that's the Nirvana fallacy. If you compare yourself against paradise, everything is horrible and miserable, but you don't live in paradise. You live on earth. Basically, what you need to understand is something called the state conditions.
首先，我想引用米尔顿·弗里德曼的一段话。在一次采访中，有人问他关于自由主义者的看法。他说，自由主义者可以分为三类。首先是古典自由主义者，比如亚当·斯密和弗里德曼自己就属于这一类。有些人说哈耶克也可以算在此类中，但在我看来，哈耶克更像是一个有限政府主义者（minarchist）。接下来是有限政府主义者，包括明确属于这一类的米塞斯和哈耶克。哲学上可以归入这一类的还有诺齐克，以及基本上包括安·兰德。弗里德曼还提到，按照他儿子的观点，还有一些人是无政府主义者。我个人认为，对我影响最大的人无疑是默里·牛顿·罗斯巴德。因此，可以从两个维度来理解：一个是我想去的方向，另一个是我所处的位置。最重要的是每天努力朝着无政府资本主义的理想前进。在这方面，我们有时会因这一理想愿景而受到严厉的批评。我认为这是一种“天堂谬误”。如果你把自己和天堂相比，一切都会显得糟糕可怕，但我们不生活在天堂，而是地球。基本上，你需要理解的是所谓的“国家条件”。
Let's suppose that you don't like rectangular tables. You prefer circular tables. Now, the reality is I have only a few hours until I go and catch my flight. And the table is rectangular. You like a circular table, a round one, but there isn't one. What you have is a rectangular table. So either we do the interview here or we just can't do it. So what do you do? You adapt to the current conditions. This is what there is. Now, so then you have some restrictions that you can change and others that you cannot. The idea is to modify all the ones that can be changed in the short term and start working on those that can be modified in the medium or long term. For example, if you really like round tables, perhaps the next interview we may do at a round table, we're going to try and solve it. But today it's something that we couldn't possibly solve. So that's basically the idea, right? Let's say it's about understanding that some restrictions you can't change, others you can, and there are institutional restrictions too.
假设你不喜欢长方形的桌子，你更喜欢圆形的桌子。现在的问题是，我只有几个小时就要去赶飞机了，而眼前的桌子是长方形的。你喜欢圆形的桌子，但这里没有。我们只能用这个长方形的桌子来进行面试，否则就没法进行了。那么该怎么办呢？你需要适应当前的情况。这就是现状。现在，你会发现有些限制是可以改变的，而有些则不能。我们的目标是尽量改变那些在短期内可以改变的限制，并开始着手处理那些在中长期内可以改变的限制。比如，如果你真心喜欢圆形的桌子，或许我们可以在下次面试时试着用圆形的桌子来解决这个问题。但今天这件事我们无法解决。基本上，这就是这个理念。我们要理解有些限制是无可更改的，而有些是可以改变的，同时也有一些是制度上的限制。
There are many anarcho-capitalists who are dedicated to criticizing and incredibly they do so with more violence towards liberals and many of them actually criticize me, which truly make no sense because it is precisely the Nirvana fallacy. But the reality is that, look, in Argentina, for example, the most popular sport is soccer. When you go to watch in Argentina much, it is beautiful. The stands are full and they're all painted with sky blue and white colors. There is a lot of joy. People sing songs that are very fun, that are very distinctive, very, it's very much part of Argentine folklore, so to speak. But you see, that beautiful show is external. That is to say, it does not determine the outcome. You place the ball in the middle of the field and no matter how much people shout the ball doesn't move. The one who moves the ball and scores the goals is messy. So what do I mean? If you don't get involved and don't get into it, no, you don't do anything. So, I mean, what do I know is that there are many liberals, libertarians and anarcho-capitalists who are really useless, because all they do is criticize, let's say those of us who want to lead the world toward the ideas of freedom and what they don't realize is that power is a zero-sum game. And if we don't have it, then the left will have it. Therefore, if you level your harshest criticism at those in your own ranks, you end up being subservient to socialism probably. And also, for instance, you have cases of strong hypocrisy, let's say, I have seen cases of agorists. I mean, it's the anarcho-capitalist who criticized Rothbard because he said that you have to get into politics, otherwise the socialists will advance. And it's interesting because some of them, I have seen them criticizing, proposing agorism. And I remember one of them one day, the police showed up. And honestly, he was peeing himself. So, I mean, it's very easy to criticize, propose and suggest. But if he was truly such an agonist, he should have been willing to endure going to jail. However, when it was time to face the consequences of the idea he was promoting, he froze, wet his pants, and ended up, let's say, accepting all the restrictions because clearly it was better to be out of jail than in jail. But in doing so, he sold out his ideas.
许多无政府资本主义者热衷于批评，令人难以置信的是，他们对自由主义者的批评甚至更加激烈。而且，他们中的许多人实际上批评我，这真的没有道理，因为这恰恰是"涅槃谬误"。但现实是，比如，在阿根廷，最受欢迎的运动是足球。当你在阿根廷观看比赛时，这场面是极其美丽的，看台上全是天蓝色和白色，人们充满了欢乐，唱着非常有趣、独特的歌曲，这些歌曲是阿根廷民俗的一部分。但你看，这场美丽的表演是外在的，也就是说，它不决定比赛结果。球放在场地中央，不管人们喊得多大声，球都不会动。推动球并得分的是梅西。那么我的意思是，如果你不参与其中，不投入其中，你就什么都没做。所以，我知道有很多自由主义者、自由意志主义者和无政府资本主义者实际上毫无用处，因为他们所做的只是批评，比如说我们这些想要将世界引向自由理念的人，他们没有意识到权力是零和博弈。如果我们没有权力，那么左翼就会拥有权力。因此，如果你对自己阵营中的人进行最严厉的批评，最终可能就会顺从于社会主义。此外，比如说，你会看到强烈的虚伪，我见过一些个体主义无政府主义者，就是批评罗斯巴德的无政府资本主义者，因为他曾说过你必须进入政治，否则社会主义者就会推进。有趣的是，其中一些人，我见过他们批评并提出无政府主义。我记得其中一个人，有一天警察来了，说实话，他吓得尿裤子。批评、提议和建议是很容易的，但如果他真的是一个坚决的无政府主义者，他应该愿意承受入狱的风险。然而，当需要面对他所提倡的想法的后果时，他却慌了，尿了裤子，最后接受了所有的限制，因为显然在监狱外比在狱中要好得多。但这样做时，他出卖了自己的想法。
So, it seems to me that no, not taking into account the restrictions of the situation only serves to be functional to socialism because all it does is strike against one's own. So, you became president 11 months ago. Can you again describe some of the actions you took? For example, you cut half the number of government ministries, layoffs, removed price controls. It would be interesting to lay out the first steps. And what's next? If you allow me, I will first give you a description of the situation we received. And based on that, I will tell you each of the things we did when we first took office.
所以，在我看来，不考虑现实条件的限制往往只会对社会主义起到辅助作用，因为这样做只会损害自身利益。那么，您在11个月前成为总统。能否再次描述一些您采取的行动？例如，您裁减了一半的政府部门，进行裁员，并取消了价格管制。了解这些初步步骤会很有趣。接下来会怎样？如果您允许的话，我想先描述一下我们接手时的情况，然后根据这一情况，告诉您我们上任初期采取的各项措施。
Basically, what we found was that in the first week of December, inflation was rising at a rate of 1% per day, which means 3,700% annually. In the first half of December, it had accelerated to 7,500% annually. When you look at wholesale inflation in December of last year, it was 54%, which, if annualized, would equate to an inflation rate of 17,000% per year. And in addition, Argentina, for the previous 10 years, had not been growing with a drop in GDP per capita of approximately 15%. And the reality was that nearly 50% were living in poverty. Now, later, I will get deeper into that discussion.
基本上，我们发现12月的第一周，通货膨胀以每天1%的速度上升，这相当于年通胀率达到3700%。到了12月上半月，这个速度加快，年通胀率相当于7500%。回顾去年的12月，批发通胀率是54%，若按年计，相当于17000%的通胀率。此外，阿根廷在过去10年里，经济并未增长，人均GDP下降了约15%。事实上，近50%的人口生活在贫困中。接下来，我会更深入探讨这个问题。
And the reality is that we had a fiscal deficit, which amounted to 15% of GDP. Five points were in the treasury, 10 points were in the central bank, which was endogenous monetary issuance. And the reality is that we also had interest-bearing liabilities at the central bank equivalent to four monetary bases, maturing in one day, meaning we could have quintupled the amount of money in one day. We had peso-denominated maturities amounting to the equivalent of 90 billion dollars. The central bank had negative net currency foreign reserves minus 12 billion dollars. We had commercial debts in the central bank equivalent to 50 billion dollars. There were company dividends held back amounting to 10 billion dollars. Therefore, if we had instantly opened up, you see, I say we are liberal libertarians, we are not liberal fools.
现实情况是，我们的财政赤字达到了GDP的15%。其中5个百分点在财政部，10个百分点在中央银行，这属于内生性货币发行。我们还面临着一个事实，即中央银行的负债相当于四个货币基数，并且这些负债在一天内到期，这意味着我们可能在一天内增加五倍的货币供应。我们有以比索计价的到期债务，相当于900亿美元。中央银行的净外汇储备是负的，达到-120亿美元。我们在中央银行的商业债务相当于500亿美元。一些公司的股息被扣留，总计100亿美元。因此，如果我们立即开放，你就会明白，我是说我们是自由意志主义者，不是自由主义傻瓜。
That's what some anarchist liberals suggested, meaning that we basically open everything on the first day. So in that context, of course, if we had done that, we would have encountered hyperinflation. Therefore, that would have led to the number of poor people being around 95% and probably, and by December, the Peronis Party would have organized supermarkets' lootings and would have done all sorts of things and would have probably been ousted. And by the first part of the year, the Peronis would have gone back to office. So to us, it was crucial to end fiscal deficit.
这就是一些无政府主义的自由派所建议的，意思是我们基本上在第一天就开放一切。在这种情况下，当然，如果我们真的那样做了，我们将会面临恶性通货膨胀。因此，这将导致贫困人口占到大约95%。而到了十二月，庇隆党可能会组织超市抢劫，并进行各种事情，最终可能被赶下台。到明年年初，庇隆党可能又会回到执政地位。因此，对我们来说，结束财政赤字至关重要。
One of the things we promised during the campaign had been to reduce the number of ministries, and indeed, we reduced to less than half the number of ministries because we went to nine ministries. Today, we have eight. We have also laid off a large number of civil employees. Today, I can say that we've already dismissed about 50,000 of them. And we practically don't renew any contracts unless the positions are absolutely necessary. At the same time, we have stopped public works and we have eliminated discretionary transfers to the provinces. We have also diluted public sector wages. Also, we have eliminated economic subsidies by restoring utility rates to the right levels. And in that, let's say, in this context, we achieved fiscal deficit as far as the treasury is concerned. This is very important because in the last 123 years, Argentina had a deficit for 113 of them, and in the 10 years, it did not have a deficit because it was not paying the debt.
在竞选期间，我们承诺要减少政府部门的数量。实际上，我们将部门数量减少到不足一半，只剩下九个部门。如今，只有八个部门。我们还裁减了大量公务员，截至今天，已经解雇了大约五万人。基本上，我们不会续签除非绝对必要的职位合同。同时，我们已经停止了公共建设，并取消了对省份的自由拨款。我们削减了公共部门工资，并通过恢复合理的公用事业费率来消除经济补贴。在这样的背景下，我们实现了财政盈余。这个成就非常重要，因为在过去123年中，阿根廷有113年是有财政赤字的，而在那10年没有赤字是因为没有偿还债务。
So that was absolutely false. And they told us it would be impossible to do that. We had planned to do so within a year. And they said it wasn't possible to adjust by more than 1 percentage point. And we achieved fiscal balance in the month of January, that is the first month of administration. At the same time, we also cut social plans linked to intermediation. This is very important because we knew we were going to make a very tough adjustment. And we knew that this was going to have a caught in social terms. And we knew that we had to offer support during the first month. I mean, the first quarter and second quarter in office. One of the things we did was to eliminate what are known as poverty managers. That is intermediaries.
这完全是错误的。他们告诉我们，做到这一点是不可能的。我们计划在一年内做到，但他们说调整幅度不可能超过1个百分点。然而，我们在1月份，也就是新政府上任的第一个月就实现了财政平衡。同时，我们也削减了与中介相关的社会计划。这一点非常重要，因为我们知道将要进行非常严厉的调整，社会方面会有影响。因此，我们知道在上任的头几个月，也就是第一和第二季度，必须提供支持。我们所做的一件事就是消除所谓的“贫困经理人”，也就是中间商。
Basically, people have a card through which they receive assistance. But it happens that they had to provide a counter service and that counter service was verified by a group called the Picateros. So in that context, when they were going to sign, the counter service took away half of the money. So by removing that payoff, they stopped extorting them, stopped stealing their money. And with the same amount of money, they received double the resources. And of course, we also provided an additional boost. So let's say that this is related to the five adjustment points in the treasury. Now, what happens? As we began to achieve fiscal balance and no longer needed to issue money to finance ourselves, and as we also met interest payments and some capital repayments, one of the things that happened is that the debt market began to be recreated.
基本上，人们拿着一张卡通过它来获得援助。但是，他们必须提供一个柜台服务，并且这个柜台服务由一个叫做Picateros的小组进行验证。在这个背景下，当他们要签署时，柜台服务拿走了一半的钱。因此，通过取消这部分支付，他们不再被勒索，钱不再被偷走。而用同样的钱，他们拿到了双倍的资源。当然，我们也提供了额外的支持。让我们说这与财政的五个调整点有关。那么接下来会发生什么呢？由于我们开始实现财政平衡，不再需要通过发行货币来自我融资，同时也能支付利息和部分本金，于是债务市场开始重建。
So we were able to take debt out of the central bank and transfer it to the treasury where it should have always been. And that meant an adjustment of approximately 10% of GDP. Everyone said this would be impossible and couldn't be fixed. Essentially, what we did was implement a fiscal adjustment at the central bank amounting to 10% of GDP. So if you ask me, it's clear that we have not only made the biggest fiscal adjustment in the history of humanity, because we made a fiscal adjustment of 15 points of the GDP, but also, most of that went back to the people as less seniority as a lower inflation rate. It's true that we temporarily raised the country tax, but we lowered it in September.
所以，我们能够将债务从中央银行转移到财政部，这是它本应所在的地方。这意味着我们对GDP进行了大约10%的调整。所有人都说这是不可能的，无法解决。但实际上，我们在中央银行实施了相当于GDP 10%的财政调整。可以说，我们不仅完成了人类历史上最大规模的财政调整，因为我们达到了GDP的15%的调整，而且其中大部分以较低的通胀率回馈给了民众。确实，我们暂时提高了国家税收，但在九月份又降低了。
And now in December, we're going to eliminate it. Today, for example, we also announced that in December, we are eliminating import taxes. In fact, in that in that regard, what you have is that we return to the people 13 and a half points of GDP, because the real tax burden is the size of the state. So while back in December, we were discussing hyperinflation. Today, we are discussing 30 year loans. In other words, all those resources that the national government used to take are now back in the private sector. And that's what has allowed it to be very dynamic. And this has two very strong impacts. The first one is that if you look at wholesale inflation, it went down from 54% to 2%. So it went down by 27 times. It was divided into 27. So we had inflation at a rate of 17,000% annually. And it's now close to about 28% a year. But it's not only that. You could consider consumer inflation. The latest consumer inflation rate was 2.7%.
现在我们到了12月，准备取消这个措施。今天，我们还宣布将会在12月取消进口税。实际上，在这一方面，我们把13.5个百分点的GDP还给了民众，因为真正的税收负担就是国家的规模。因此，以前在12月，我们讨论的是恶性通货膨胀，而现在，我们讨论的是30年的贷款。换句话说，所有原本由国家政府征收的资源现已回归到私营部门，这让经济变得非常有活力。这带来了两个非常显著的影响。首先，如果你看批发通胀率，它从54%下降到了2%，减少了27倍，也就是说原本我们的年通胀率高达17,000%，现在已接近每年28%左右。而且不仅如此，近期的消费者通胀率是2.7%。
Now it happens that we essentially, due to a matter that is related to the central bank's balance sheets and also due to the debt stocks, we still have controls in place and we are eliminating restrictions day by day. Now, the interesting thing is that we have a 2% monthly devaluation standard. And there's international inflation, of course, which means that you then have to subtract two and a half points from the inflation observed by the consumer. This indicates that inflation in Argentina, the true inflation, not the induced one, but the actual monetary inflation, is 0.2% per month. At 0.2% per month, this equates to 2.4% annually.
现在的情况是，主要由于中央银行的资产负债表问题以及债务存量，我们仍然在实施一些管控措施，不过我们每天都在逐步减少这些限制。有趣的是，我们目前实行每月2%的标准贬值率。当然，还有国际通货膨胀的影响，这意味着消费者观察到的通货膨胀需要减去2.5个百分点。这表明阿根廷的真实通货膨胀率，也就是货币通胀，而非诱导性通胀，每月为0.2%。这个每月0.2%的通胀率折算成年度通胀率就是2.4%。
What I'm saying is, the original discussion was about whether inflation could reach 17,000%. Now we are bringing inflation down to levels of 2.5% annually. And that is amazing. And we achieved this by considering a number of factors. The first one is that we did not experience a previous hyperinflation, which would have simplified the process of implementing a stabilization program. Typically, when hyperinflation occurs, monetary assets are diluted leading to a natural restoration of demand. And besides, we did not resort to any expropriation.
我想说的是，最初的讨论是关于通货膨胀是否会达到17,000%。现在我们把通货膨胀率降低到每年2.5%的水平，这是非常了不起的。我们通过考虑多个因素实现了这点。首先，我们没有经历过此前的恶性通货膨胀，否则实施稳定计划的过程会更简单。通常，当恶性通货膨胀发生时，货币资产会被稀释，从而自然恢复需求。另外，我们也没有进行任何形式的征用。
For example, before the convertibility plan, which was the most successful program in Argentina's history, Argentina experienced two instances of hyperinflation. During Alfoncine's administration, inflation reached 5,000%. And under momentum, it was 1,200%. Additionally, there was the Bonex plan under which debt was exchanged on a compulsory basis. In other words, what we did instead was clean up the central bank balance sheet. So with that, we cleaned up the central bank's balance sheet. We cleared a loss of $45 billion all voluntarily. And the most amazing thing is that we did it in just six months.
例如，在阿根廷历史上最成功的货币兑换计划之前，阿根廷经历过两次恶性通货膨胀。在阿方辛政府时期，通货膨胀率达到了5000%。而在另一个高峰期，通胀率是1200%。此外，还有一个名为Bonex计划的政策，要求强制置换债务。换句话说，我们通过其他方式整顿了中央银行的资产负债表。结果，我们自愿减少了450亿美元的损失。最令人惊讶的是，我们在短短六个月内就完成了这项工作。
And at the same time, we have not controlled prices nor have we fixed the exchange rate. And this is very important. All previous stabilization programs in an effort to show quick results used to do this. What they would do is, before announcing the plan, they would adjust the rates. And once the rates were adjusted, they would launch the plan. But in our case, we couldn't afford that luxury. So we had to implement it on the go. And also over the past few months, that is to say, companies brought in rates that covered only about 10%. Whereas today, they cover 80%. So you get the picture. Just imagine the adjustment we are making. And in that sense, it is also incredible what we have achieved. Because if we were to work with the inflation we have in our country today, considering the exchange rate situation, the figures are even better than during the convertibility program, which was the most successful economic program in Argentina's history. And in fact, there is an article called Passing the Buck, which is by Sharado de la Palera, Botsoli and Irigoin, that demonstrates that Menem's first government was the best government in history.
与此同时，我们既没有控制物价，也没有固定汇率。这一点非常重要。之前所有的稳定计划为了快速见效，通常会这样做：在宣布计划之前，他们会调整汇率，然后一旦汇率调整完毕，就开始实施计划。但在我们的情况下，我们无法奢望这种条件，所以我们只能在实施过程中逐步调整。此外，过去几个月中，公司提供的汇率仅覆盖大约10％，而现在则覆盖了80％。所以你可以想象我们所做的调整。在这方面，我们取得的成果也是令人难以置信的。因为如果考虑到我们国家当前的通货膨胀和汇率状况，数字比阿根廷历史上最成功的经济计划——即转化计划期间的数据还要好。事实上，有篇名为《Passing the Buck》的文章，由Sharado de la Palera、Botsoli和Irigoin撰写，证明了梅内姆的第一届政府是历史上最好的政府。
And basically, it argues two things in the success of the stabilization of the convertibility program. So if you take a closer look, when you examine it carefully, when you account for all these factors, our disinflation process is actually much more genuine. And not only that, it's also much deeper. We are restored freedoms to our centenians while simultaneously implementing a structural reform eight times larger. And we accomplished this with only with 15% of the representatives, 10% of the senators, and within the first six months of government.
基本上，这段话提出了两个关于可兑换计划成功的论点。如果仔细观察，当你认真考量所有这些因素时，我们的通货紧缩过程实际上更加真实。而且，不仅如此，它也更为深入。我们在恢复公民自由的同时，实施了一项规模大八倍的结构改革。而且，我们是在政府成立后的前六个月内，仅凭借15%的众议员和10%的参议员的支持实现了这一目标。
In other words, our deregulation agenda continues daily. And we still have 3200 structural reforms pending. This will ultimately make Argentina the freest country in the world. Moreover, to have a sense of magnitude, the reforms that we already have made with the executive order 7023 and with the basis law, we have actually jumped 90 places in terms of economic freedom. What this means is that today, Argentina has institutions similar to those of Germany, France, Italy, and we obviously want this to continue. And let's say we are going to surpass no doubt the levels of economic freedom that Ireland reached in its best moment.
换句话说，我们的放松管制议程每天都在推进。我们还有3200项结构改革待完成。这将最终使阿根廷成为世界上最自由的国家。此外，为了让大家了解改革的规模，我们已经通过执行令7023和基础法进行的改革，使得我们的经济自由度排名上升了90位。这意味着，如今阿根廷的制度已经和德国、法国、意大利相似，我们显然希望这种趋势持续下去。可以说，我们无疑将超越爱尔兰在巅峰时期达到的经济自由水平。
And not only that, we're going to exceed the levels of economic freedom of Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland. We are undoubtedly going to be the freest country in the world. And this means that thanks to what we've done today, we are on a path that allows us to multiply our per capita GDP by 2.5 times when you apply the relevant correction. And this, of course, is something very interesting because it implies a huge increase in well-being.
不仅如此，我们还将超越澳大利亚、新西兰和瑞士的经济自由水平。我们毫无疑问将成为世界上最自由的国家。这意味着得益于我们今天所做的一切，我们正走上一条使人均GDP在经过相关调整后翻倍至2.5倍的发展道路。这当然非常有趣，因为这意味着人们的生活水平将大幅提升。
And furthermore, today, the Argentinian economy is already strongly and amazingly recovering. And we can say, analysts, hypotheses, we're suggesting that next year we would be growing between 5 and 6 percent. Today, JP Morgan has now corrected, or let's say revised the projections upwards. And besides, when we normalized the price situation, the true poverty rate came up, and it was 57 percent in January. Today, it is a 46 percent, meaning we lowered poverty by 11 percentage points.
而且，如今，阿根廷经济已经在强劲而惊人的复苏。据说有分析师和假设认为明年我们的经济增长将达到5%到6%之间。而今天，摩根大通已经向上修正了他们的预测。另外，当我们对价格状况进行正常化时，真实的贫困率显现出来，今年一月是57%。现在是46%，也就是说我们将贫困率降低了11个百分点。
Let's say, I mean, it seems truly like a miracle. And not only that, but actually, not a single job was lost in the process. When it comes to all of this inflation reduction process, people said that our economy and economic activity would collapse. And actually, when you look at the desecinalized data, you see that in August, there was a recovery that took us back to December levels, to December levels. That means that in the year we made the largest fiscal adjustment in the history of humanity, we will end up with less inflation, fewer poor people, better real wages, and additionally, a GDP higher than what we started with. And if you look at it in dollars, I can assure you that the numbers are phenomenal, because basically, today, the dollar is below the levels we had when we took office.
可以说，这简直像是个奇迹。而且，在整个过程中没有一个工作岗位被丢失。谈到整个通胀削减过程，人们曾说我们的经济和经济活动会崩溃。但实际上，当你查看经季节性调整的数据时，你会发现，在8月份，经济恢复到了12月份的水平。这意味着，在我们进行人类历史上最大规模财政调整的一年里，我们的通胀率下降了，贫困人口减少了，实际工资提高了，而且国内生产总值(GDP)比我们开始时还要高。如果用美元来看的话，我可以肯定地说，数据是非常惊人的，因为基本上今天的美元水平低于我们上任时的水平。
So the reality is that in all of this, when you take my popularity levels and the government's acceptance levels, today, they are above the moment we assumed office. If you know that the moment of maximum popularity is when you take office, therefore, this means that far from resting on our laurels with this, we're going for more reforms, we're going to deepen the reforms. And I tell you, we won't stop until Argentina is the freest country in the world.
事实上，在这一切中，我的受欢迎程度和政府的接受度今天都超过了我们刚上任时的水平。众所周知，上任时通常是受欢迎程度的最高点。因此，这意味着我们并不会因此止步不前，而是会进行更多改革，深入推进改革。我告诉你，我们不会停下，直到阿根廷成为世界上最自由的国家。
Furthermore, a recent work by an Argentinian economist named Juan Pablo Nicolini was presented at the Central Bank's monetary meetings, and he works at the Federal Reserve. And it's interesting because he shows that only on the basis of what we have done in fiscal matters, it ensures that in the span of 10 years, we can double the GDP per capita, meaning that Argentina could grow at rates of 7% annually, which is very much, very much, and that has strong consequences in terms of improving quality of life, reducing poverty, reducing indigence.
此外，阿根廷经济学家胡安·巴勃罗·尼科利尼最近在中央银行的货币会议上展示了一项研究，他还在美联储工作。这个研究很有趣，因为他表明，仅仅基于我们在财政事务上所做的工作，就可以确保在10年内人均GDP翻一番。这意味着阿根廷可以以每年7%的速度增长，这个速度非常快，并将在提高生活质量、减少贫困和减轻贫困方面产生强烈影响。
Therefore, if during the worst moment, our image didn't suffer and we stayed strong in our ideas, now that everything is working much better, why should we change? On the contrary, we are ready to redouble the bet, to redouble our efforts because we've done things that no one else has done. I will give you an example. There's something that seems trivial, but there's what's called the single-paper ballad. Argentina used to vote with huge ballads, which were very above all, very costly, and that reform, it never, let's say it wasn't done because it always harmed the ruling party.
因此，如果在最糟糕的时刻，我们的形象没有受损，我们在信念上保持坚定，那么现在一切都运作得更好，我们为什么要改变呢？相反，我们准备加倍下注，加倍努力，因为我们完成了别人没有做到的事情。我给你举个例子。有件事情看似微不足道，就是所谓的"单一选票"。阿根廷过去使用的选票非常庞大且昂贵，而这种改革之所以一直没有进行，是因为它总是对执政党不利。
So everyone talked about going to the single-paper ballad, but no one did it when they were in power. They didn't want to implement it because they preferred to commit fraud or use some kind of trickery to avoid applying that rule that makes the election more competitive. Well, what's interesting, we sent that law and it was approved. What's more, now we are finishing with the open simultaneous and mandatory primaries because it was a mechanism by which politics was also stealing. We are eliminating the financing of political parties. If you look, we have reduced the fiscal pressure by 15 points to the Argentinians. We are restoring freedoms with a deep set of structural and regulatory reforms that is, I think that any sensible liberal could perceive, we are already delivering a wonderful government.
所以，大家都在谈论采用单一纸质选票，但当他们掌权时却没有人去做。他们不愿意实施，是因为他们更倾向于通过欺诈或某种诡计来避免实行这个让选举更具竞争性的规则。有趣的是，我们提交了那项法律，并且获得了通过。更重要的是，现在我们正在结束开放式同时强制初选，因为这是一个让政治也是在盗窃的机制。我们正在取消对政党的资助。你看看，我们已经让阿根廷人的财政压力降低了15个百分点。我们正在通过一整套深刻的结构性和监管改革来恢复自由。我认为，任何理智的自由主义者都能察觉到，我们已经在实现一个出色的政府。
In fact, it's the best government in the history of Argentina. If the best had been that of Menem, we've already outpaced him. Maybe you can explain to me the metrics of poverty and unemployment, as you said, unemployment went down, real unemployment went down, real poverty went down. But even that aside, what have been the most painful impacts of these radical reforms and how many of them are required in the short term to have a big positive impact in the long term? Let's take it step by step, all right? That is, we, in fact, we started to do things right. Therefore, we did not create poverty. The poverty was an inherited poverty. The point is that what we did was to reveal it.
其实，这是阿根廷历史上最好的政府。如果说梅内姆的政府是最好的，那么我们已经超越了他。也许你可以跟我解释一下贫困和失业的指标，正如你所说，失业率下降了，实际失业率下降了，实际贫困率也下降了。但即使抛开这些不谈，这些激进改革中最痛苦的影响是什么？为了在长期内获得巨大的积极影响，在短期内需要实施多少改革？我们一步一步来，好吗？也就是说，其实我们开始做对的事情。因此，我们没有创造贫困。贫困是继承下来的问题。关键是，我们只是揭示了这个问题。
I'll try to explain it with an example that I think clarifies what's happening in Argentina. Argentina was an economy that had total price controls. It had a fiscal deficit, which was financed through money printing just for you to give you an idea. In the last year, Argentina financed 13 points of the gross domestic product with money printing. In other words, a real disaster. So that situation provoked this artificially demand and puts pressure on prices. The issue is that price controls are applied additionally over the prices that they enter the price index with which inflation was, I'm not saying they were lying about it, it was distorted.
我来尝试用一个例子解释一下我认为能阐明阿根廷状况的事情。阿根廷曾经拥有严格的物价管制。它有一个财政赤字，这个赤字通过印钞来弥补。为了让你有个概念，去年阿根廷通过印钞融资了相当于国民生产总值13个百分点的资金。换句话说，真的是个彻底的灾难。这样的情况导致了人为的需求增加，并给物价带来压力。问题在于，价格管制是在物价加入价格指数之后才实施的，这使得通货膨胀数据并不是说他们在说谎，但确实被扭曲了。
And since Argentina measures poverty and indigence by income line, then what happens? That distorted the true levels of poverty, of course. But that's not the only effect. I mean, let's say the real poverty levels were higher, quite a bit higher than those shown by the previous government, which showed them at 41% and also did so on a six-monthly basis. So if you, let's say, have a growing trend, they are actually leaving you a bomb and you don't see it. Because let's say basically the indicator was measured with a delayed form. But not only that, imagine that you are also given you are in the middle of an island alone and they give you one million dollars. What can you do with that? You cannot do anything because you cannot buy anything.
由于阿根廷是通过收入线来衡量贫困和极端贫困，因此会发生什么呢？这样当然会扭曲真实的贫困水平。但这不是唯一的影响。我是说，假设实际的贫困水平要比前政府所显示的高出不少，他们显示的贫困率是41%，而且是每半年报告一次。如果贫困趋势在上升，他们实际上是在留给你一个“炸弹”，而你却看不到。因为基本上这个指标是以延迟的方式进行测量的。但不仅如此，想象一下，如果你身处孤岛，他们给了你一百万美元。你能做什么呢？你什么也做不了，因为你买不到任何东西。
It's the same as if someone tells you that the price of glasses is $10, but when you want to buy it, it's not available. Actually, there's a joke told by an Argentinian professor named Juan Carlos de Pablo, who says that a man goes to a bazaar and asks for a vase. Then he says to him, well, I want that vase. How much would you charge me? Then he says $5,000. Oh, okay, $5,000. But why $5,000? If across the street, it's $1,000. He says, well, go buy it across the street for $1,000. Ah, there's none for $1,000. Well, then here when there's more, it'll also cost $1,000. In other words, prices at which they are available. So what happens when you are faced with that situation, the supermarket shelves were empty? So what was the point of having a price at which you couldn't buy anything? You left those prices, the shelves were empty.
这就像当有人告诉你眼镜的价格是10美元，但当你想买的时候，货物却无货可售。其实，有个阿根廷教授胡安·卡洛斯·德·巴布罗讲过一个笑话：一个人去集市上问花瓶的价格，他说，嗯，我想要那个花瓶。你要收我多少钱？对方说5000美元。哦，好吧，5000美元。但是为什么是5000美元呢？街对面只要1000美元。他回答说，那你去街对面买啊。啊，那里没货。好吧，那等到这里有货的时候，也会是1000美元。换句话说，价格应根据有货时来定。那么，当你遇到这种情况时，超市货架是空的，所以有什么意义给出一个你买不到东西的价格？价格放在那里，但货架上什么都没有。
So the statistics showed that you are much better. But the reality is you couldn't buy anything. You couldn't make it happen. So if you left the situation as it was, people were going to starve because they couldn't buy anything. Yes, they had a certain amount of money that could supposedly buy certain goods, but those goods were not available. What is the only thing you can do to save people? Make the prices transparent and allow products to reappear. Well, when you make the prices transparent, you also make transparent the cost of the basic food basket and the total basic basket, meaning the poverty line, sorry, the indigence line and the poverty line respectively. And when you do that, clearly you will see a jump in poverty. That brought poverty up to 57%. Now, Argentina found its activity floor in the month of April. From that moment, Argentina began to invent a cyclical recovery. Real wages have been growing every month above inflation. Therefore, nominal wages are beating inflation. In fact, we are already at levels similar to those we had in November. The same goes for pensions.
因此，数据显示你的情况好转了很多。但现实是，你根本买不到任何东西，也无法实现购买。如果任由这种情况继续下去，人们将因为买不到东西而挨饿。是的，手头确实有一些钱，理论上可以买到某些商品，但这些商品根本不存在。要挽救人们，你唯一能做的事情是什么？让价格透明化，并让产品重新出现。当价格透明化时，基本食品篮子和整个基本生活篮子（即极端贫困线和贫困线）也变得透明。那么，贫困率自然会上升，这使得贫困率增加到57%。4月份是阿根廷经济活动的低谷。从那时起，阿根廷开始了周期性的经济复苏。实际工资每个月都在增长，超过了通货膨胀。因此，名义工资已经超过了通胀。实际上，我们的水平已经恢复到十一月时的水准。养老金的情况也是如此。
Moreover, also, let's say there is a rebound in activity due to the recovery of the stock cycle. Therefore, this is also contributing to more and better paid jobs. In fact, this is so strong and evident that the wages growing the most are in the informal sector. This means that poverty and extreme poverty are decreasing much faster than we imagined. But not only that, by eliminating inflation, you remove the inflationary tax, but the real burden is the fiscal deficit, which was 15 points of the GDP. We temporarily raised the country tax. Now we lower it, but we return that to the Argentinians. We gave back 15 points of the GDP.
而且，假设由于库存周期的恢复，经济活动出现反弹。这也有助于创造更多、更高薪的工作。实际上，情况非常明显——工资增长最快的反而是非正规部门。这意味着贫困和极端贫困的减少速度远超我们的预期。但不仅如此，通过消除通胀，您可以去掉通胀税，但真正的负担是财政赤字，曾达到GDP的15个百分点。我们曾经暂时提高了国家税收。现在我们降低了它，并将这些返还给阿根廷人。我们返还了相当于GDP的15个百分点。
Not only that, but also when you eliminate inflation, you remove the distortion of relative prices. Therefore, the allocation of resources is much better. Not only that, but also with the strong fiscal adjustment we made, we have reduced the country risk from 3,000 basis points to 770. Today, Fitch raised Argentina's rating to C. So, what do I mean? That translates into a lower country risk and interest rates, and that generates an increase in investment, also generates an increase in consumption. In other words, the Argentinian economy is currently in an absolutely flourishing moment.
不仅如此，当你消除通货膨胀时，你也消除了相对价格的扭曲。因此，资源分配会更加合理。不仅如此，通过我们进行的强有力的财政调整，我们将国家风险从3000个基点降低到了770。今天，Fitch将阿根廷的评级提升到了C。那么，这意味着什么呢？这意味着国家风险和利率下降，从而带来了投资的增加，也带来了消费的增长。换句话说，现在的阿根廷经济正处于一个非常繁荣的时刻。
And how is that sustained in the long term with structural reforms, which we implement daily deregulating the economy and introducing new laws that free Argentinians from the many oppressive measures that have burdened it over the past 100 years? You've spoken about the caste, the corrupt political establishment. So, there's a lot of powerful people and groups that are against your ideas. What does it take to fight once so much powers against you?
如何通过结构性改革在长期内维持这一点？我们每天通过放松对经济的管制和引入新法律来实现这些改革，这些法律将阿根廷人从过去100年中许多压迫性的措施中解放出来。您提到过特权阶层，即腐败的政治集团。有许多有权势的人物和团体反对您的理念。面对如此强大的阻力，需要付出什么来抗争呢？
Look, we have fought against corruption like never before in Argentina. In fact, when we took office, for example, there were about 900 roadblocks per year. That is people who made a habit of blocking the streets. They prevented free movement. And besides, they were given social plans and they were given a lot of money.
看看，我们在阿根廷进行了前所未有的反腐斗争。实际上，当我们上任时，每年大约有900次路障。也就是说，一些人养成了封锁街道的习惯。他们阻碍了自由通行。而且，他们还领取了社会福利，得到了很多钱。
If you remember, when I started by explaining the cuts, one of the things I said was that we removed the middlemen of poverty, in other words, the managers of poverty, those who lived by stealing from the poor. Well, that is a huge source of corruption. In fact, when we did that, two days later, one of the most renowned and influential Picateros called for a demonstration, he claimed that 50,000 people would attend because he was actually expecting 100,000. So, he wanted to showcase it as a success. And so then, let's say with the decision made in human capital to cut their funding, the anti-blocade protocol was also enacted, where those who blocked the streets wouldn't receive welfare benefits, and those who broke the law would go to jail. All of that. And also, we were informing this through transportation channels.
如果你还记得，当我开始解释这些削减措施时，我提到的一件事是我们消除了贫穷中间人，换句话说，就是那些以从穷人那里偷取利益为生的贫穷管理者。这是一大腐败来源。事实上，当我们这么做后，仅仅两天后，一位著名且有影响力的抗议组织者号召了一次示威，他声称会有5万人参加，因为他实际上期望有10万人支持。他想把这次活动展示为成功。因此，我们在人力资本方面决定削减他们的资金，并实施了反封锁协议，规定那些封堵街道的人不会获得福利，那些违法的人会被送进监狱。我们还通过交通渠道宣传这些信息。
Well, in that march, they expected to have 100,000 people there. And actually, it turned out to be 3,000 people. And from that point on, they didn't block the streets anymore. We also evidently put an end to that corruption. One of the things that also generated a lot of corruption was public works. Another thing that led to significant act of corruption were the discretionary transfers to provinces. In general, these transfers were made to the provinces with accounting as obscure as possible. So, the national government, in collusion with the governors, let's say, the money ended up being used for other things. Not only that with which we have already done many things.
好吧，在那次游行中，他们预期会有10万人到场。但实际上，只有3000人参加。从那时起，他们就不再封锁街道了。我们显然也制止了那种腐败。公共工程是导致大量腐败的一个因素。另一个导致严重腐败的因素是对各省的自由资金转移。通常，这些资金转移到省级时会尽量不透明，会计账目十分模糊。所以，国家政府和省长们勾结，资金最终被用于其他用途。我们已经在这方面做了很多工作。
Furthermore, the Ministry of Human Capital is always filing complaints in court, not in the media in court. Acts of corruption like never before in Argentine history. Not only that, but also in terms of condemning corruption. That is, we have done, for example, two days ago, it was condemned. Christina Fernandez, the Kirchner, got a sentence for corruption. I mean, due to corruption, and the next day, that is, yesterday, we took away their privileged pensions. At the same time, we are, for example, we have discovered that Kirchnerism used these ability pensions for acts of corruption. For example, there is a city that has more disability pensions than people. In other words, to give you an idea of the things being done in Argentina.
此外，人力资源部总是向法院提出投诉，而不是在媒体上。阿根廷历史上前所未有的腐败事件正在发生。不仅如此，我们也在积极谴责腐败行为。例如，两天前，我们对克里斯蒂娜·费尔南德斯（基什内尔政府）进行了腐败指控，并判刑。也就是说，由于腐败，她受到了判决。第二天，也就是昨天，我们取消了他们的特权养老金。同时，我们还发现基什内尔政府利用这些残疾人养老金进行腐败活动。例如，有一个城市的残疾人养老金领取者数量比人口还多。换句话说，这给你展示了阿根廷正在发生的一些事情。
And also in Argentina, we have restored freedom to the judiciary. We do not pressure the judiciary. And this is so true that during my government, not only was Christina Fernandez, the Kirchner, convicted, but also the two terrorist attacks carried out by Iran were condemned. So if there is a government that is truly fighting against corruption, it is us. Not only that, but also with each deregulation, it is a privilege that we take away either from a politician, a prebendary company, or a power group. That is also very powerful. No one in Argentina has ever fought against corruption the way we have. In fact, I will move on to something that is deeply corrupt and one of my great battles. The corruption of the media and social media, that is to say, I removed the official advertising.
在阿根廷，我们已经恢复了司法机构的独立，我们不会对司法机关施加压力。这一点在我任期内得到了充分证明，克里斯蒂娜·费尔南德斯·基什内尔被定罪，与此同时，伊朗实施的两起恐怖袭击也被谴责。因此，如果有哪个政府真正致力于打击腐败，那就是我们。此外，每一次取消规章，我们都剥夺了政界人士、依赖国家的公司或权力集团的特权，这也是非常有力的。在阿根廷，从未有过像我们这样坚定打击腐败的政府。事实上，我还要谈及一个深层次的腐败问题，这也是我面临的一次重大挑战，即媒体和社交媒体的腐败。也就是说，我取消了官方广告。
That's why you will see that even though we generate wonderful news, every week in large quantity, the media speak terribly. In other words, they demand to have a monopoly on the microphone. That is, they are entitled to insult, hurt, offend, and they don't want anyone to bother them. And they expect me not to even respond. That's why a large part of journalism in Argentina hates the X network. And that's why the liberal libertarians love the X network, because we can all say what we want. However, let's say these supposed journalists who defend freedom of expression, actually, what they want is to censor the ideas they don't like. And of course, because they are leftists, because they are works, because they can't stand the competition, because if they had to fight face-to-face, hand-to-hand on a level playing field, when it comes to ideas, they would lose because they were a failure in the economic, social, and cultural aspects.
这就是为什么你会看到，即使我们每周产生大量精彩的新闻，媒体还是充满负面报道。换句话说，他们要求垄断话语权，也就是说，他们有权侮辱、伤害、冒犯别人，而不希望任何人打扰他们。他们希望我连回应都不要。这就是为什么阿根廷的大部分新闻界讨厌X网络。而自由主义者喜欢X网络，因为我们在这里可以畅所欲言。然而，这些所谓捍卫言论自由的记者，其实想要的是审查他们不喜欢的观点。当然，因为他们是左派，因为他们是既得利益者，因为他们无法忍受竞争，因为如果他们在一个公平的竞技场上进行思想交锋，他们会失败，因为他们在经济、社会和文化方面都是失败的。
And also, we must not forget that those murderers called socialists killed 150 million people. So they clearly cannot fight on equal terms. Therefore, they demand that social networks have censorship and that the truth cannot be told to them. Because when you tell a socialist the truth, they cry, claiming it's hate speech. No, it's not hate speech. It's that you are useless people who have ruined the planet. They have made the planet much worse. And fortunately, today, thanks to social media, especially due to the enormous and brave work of Elon Musk and their role of Twitter, today, X, right, allows information to flow, which makes it possible, let's say, to expose politicians and also expose the media. And that's why journalists in Argentina are so violent. Why? Because before, they could, for instance, a journalist went and, for example, he would go to a person and he would throw a folder at them and say, if you don't give me X amount of money, I am going to publish all of this and tarnish your reputation.
我们也不能忘记，那些自称社会主义者的凶手曾杀害了1.5亿人，因此，他们显然无法公平竞争。因此，他们要求社交网络进行审查，并不允许真相传播。因为当你告诉社会主义者真相时，他们会哭诉，说这是仇恨言论。但这不是仇恨言论，而是因为他们是让地球变得更糟糕的无能之人。幸运的是，如今由于社交媒体的存在，特别是由于埃隆·马斯克和他的 Twitter（现为 X）的巨大而勇敢的工作，信息得以流通，可以揭露政客和媒体。这就是为什么阿根廷的记者如此暴力的原因。为什么？因为过去，他们可以，例如，一个记者会去找一个人，扔给他们一个文件夹说，如果不给我一笔钱，我就会发表这些内容，毁掉你的名誉。
And I know for a fact, a case of a journalist who carried out this extortion twice to a businessman, that businessman told him that he wasn't going to pay. And evidently, the journalist did it. Obviously, they went to court, there was a trial, and that journalists lost both times. But that process is very slow. And in the meantime, they smeared. So since the justice system takes a long time, so what is the problem? The problem is that in the meantime, your life got dorted. So why can journalists do all this? Well, that's why they dislike X. They dislike social media. They dislike the new form of communication because it took away their monopoly over the microphone. And by taking away the monopoly over the microphone, it removed the economic benefits of extortion.
我确实知道有一个记者，他两次对一位商人进行敲诈勒索。那位商人告诉记者自己不会支付。然而，记者显然还是进行了敲诈。于是他们上了法庭，并进行了审判，结果记者两次都输了。但司法程序非常缓慢，而在此期间，商人的名誉已经被诽谤了。因此，由于司法系统需要很长时间，这就产生了问题：在这个过程中，你的生活已经被弄得一团糟。那么，为什么记者可以做这些事情呢？因为他们不喜欢X，不喜欢社交媒体，也不喜欢这种新的交流方式，因为它们夺走了记者对话筒的垄断权。而打破话筒的垄断，也就摧毁了通过敲诈获取经济利益的可能性。
So clearly, that's another battle I'm fighting. You read a newspaper in Argentina and 85% of what you read is a lie. That is to say, the fundamental characteristic of most journalists, not all, but the vast majority of journalists in Argentina with some honorable exceptions is that they are liars, slanderers, and defamors. And if the monopoly they demand were still in place, that they want to reign again, I have no doubt that they would demand money in exchange for silence because that's what they are. They are extortionists, they are thieves, they are corrupt. And then, of course, obviously, when you take away a privilege from a sector, they get upset. Well, welcome to freedom.
显然，这又是我正在进行的一场斗争。你在阿根廷看报纸，会发现85%的内容都是谎言。也就是说，绝大多数阿根廷记者的根本特征，不是所有，但大部分，都是撒谎者、诽谤者和污蔑者，当然也有一些是光荣例外。如果他们想要的垄断地位依然存在，他们毫无疑问会索要钱财来换取沉默，因为那就是他们的本性。他们是敲诈者，是小偷，是腐败分子。所以，当你剥夺他们的特权时，他们自然会不满。欢迎来到自由世界。
So you're not only fighting for economic freedom, you're fighting for freedom of speech. Exactly. I fight for freedom in all aspects of life. That is to say, one of the things that seems most interesting to me is that when the Berlin Wall fell, it's true that officially fell in the year 1989. But the reality is that the wall or socialism fell in the year 1961 when they had to build the wall. I mean, they built it because people were leaving Communist Germany for capitalist Germany. They realized that those on the Western side were much better off. And, of course, to prevent people from leaving. They put what a wonderful system, right? So, I mean, they had to trap people, they couldn't let them go. I mean, these are such wonderful ideas that they had to apply them at gunpoint. It's quite, well, it's no coincidence that they killed 150 million human beings.
所以你不仅在为经济自由而战，还在为言论自由而战。没错。我为生活各方面的自由而奋斗。也就是说，我觉得很有趣的一点是，当柏林墙倒塌时，虽然官方年是1989年，但实际上墙或者说社会主义在1961年就已经崩溃了，因为他们必须建造那堵墙。我是说，他们建墙是因为人们不断从共产主义的德国逃往资本主义的德国。他们意识到西方国家的人过得要好得多。当然，为了阻止人们离开，他们不得不采取极端措施，让一个如此“美好”的制度存在。就是说，他们不得不困住人们，不能让他们离开。那就是说，这些所谓的“美好”想法必须用武力来维持。很显然，这不是巧合，因为他们导致了1.5亿人丧生。
So, what happened then? The official fall of the wall in the year 1989 made it clear that socialism had failed. In that context, the socialists, they moved the discussion of class struggle in economics and took it to other areas. So, for example, socialism, or what is of the 21st century, or cultural Marxism or post-Marxism, whatever definition you want, is to take class struggle to different aspects of life. For example, one of the aspects of life where you, let's say, have this is in gender ideology. I mean, it's incredible because the first ones to defend equality before the law were the liberals. The first to defend women's rights were the liberals. Jeremy Bentham in the year 1750 was the first to demand equality before the law for women.
那么，那时候发生了什么？1989年柏林墙的正式倒塌明确显示了社会主义的失败。在这种背景下，社会主义者将阶级斗争的讨论从经济领域转移到了其他领域。例如，21世纪的社会主义、文化马克思主义或后马克思主义，随便你怎么定义，都是将阶级斗争扩展到生活的不同方面。比如说，在性别意识形态中，你可以看到这一点。这事很有趣，因为最早在法律面前捍卫平等的是自由主义者。最早为妇女权益辩护的也是自由主义者。早在1750年，杰里米·边沁就是第一个要求在法律面前实现男女平等的人。
I mean, the cause of equality, equality before the law for women and equality of rights, the first ones who advocated for this were the liberals, did you know? However, what does the left do? They just go on to radicalize it. And then it moves to what is called female chauvinism. Female chauvinism is, let's say, the fight against males. And then, I mean, how do they do it? They do it by assigning rights. But when you assign a right, someone has to pay for it. And that has consequences. And in general, let's say, this always happens. The consequences are that the results are worse than what you had before.
我的意思是，倡导女性在法律面前平等和权利平等的最初推动者是自由派，你知道吗？然而，左派做了什么呢？他们只是极端化了这一理念。接着，这就演变成了所谓的女权沙文主义。女权沙文主义可以说是对男性的对抗。那么，他们是怎么做到的呢？他们通过分配权利来实现。但当你赋予某人权利时，就会有人为此付出代价。这是有后果的。一般来说，结果往往比之前的情况更糟糕。
I mean, in any state intervention, the subsequent result is often worse than what you originally had. So, that's one thing. And not only that, but the other side of this is the environmental agenda, which sets man against nature, involving all aspects of environmentalism and everything related to climate change. In other words, they can't stand any serious discussion. Therefore, all environmental policies are nothing more than an excuse to collect taxes. So that a group of parasitic bureaucrats can live at the expense of others and finance sinister ideas, where the most sinister idea of all is that there is no room for everyone on planet Earth. That is, an idea that failed with Malthus at the beginning of the 19th century, a murderous idea that was also applied by the Egyptians against the Jews.
任何国家的干预往往会导致结果比原来更糟糕。这是其一。不仅如此，另一个方面是环境议程，它让人与自然对立，包括所有与环境保护和气候变化相关的内容。换句话说，他们无法接受任何严肃的讨论。因此，所有的环保政策不过是收税的借口。这样一来，一些寄生的官僚就可以靠别人的辛苦生活，还能资助一些险恶的想法，其中最险恶的想法就是地球上容不下所有人。这是一个在19世纪初被马尔萨斯否认的失败想法，也是埃及人针对犹太人实施的致命想法。
And this is famously recorded in the book of Seymot or Exodus. Or, for example, another thing is Black Lives Matter. That is, Black people against white people or indigenous people against the established communities. Or, I mean, everything related to LGBT agendas, definitely, these are some of the ways in which socialism extended the class struggle into other aspects of society, creating divisions and fostering deceit with the sole purpose of absorbing taxes. I mean, what was the ministry of women in Argentina doing? Did it manage to reduce a single femicide? No. None at all. The number of femicides exploded just the same. In fact, the most feminist president in Argentine history, Mr. Alberto Fernandez, used to beat his wife. That is such a strange feminist.
这段文字提到了一些社会现象和观点。首先，它提到了在《出埃及记》中记录的事件。接着，它谈到了"黑人的命也是命"运动，指出这是黑人和白人之间，或原住民与既定社区之间的对抗。此外，它提到与LGBT议题有关的内容，认为这些是社会主义将阶级斗争扩展到社会其他方面的方法，制造分裂并通过此手段增加税收。文中进一步质疑阿根廷的女性事务部，评论该部门是否减少了女性被害案件，并指出案件数量并没有减少。最后，作者指出阿根廷历史上被认为最具女权主义色彩的总统阿尔贝托·费尔南德斯曾殴打妻子，让人感到讽刺。
I mean, well, so within the ranks of feminists, let's say you will essentially find the largest number of rapists and women beat us. And it's quite interesting what they do. Their hypocrisy is truly striking. It's not just about that, though. I mean, the battle is on three fronts. You have the economic front, which is free enterprise capitalism. Then we have the political level. Currently, the system that the world has designed is a Republican liberal democracy with checks and balances. And I mean, at the cultural battle level, notice that socialism has been very successful in the cultural battle. It has been very successful politically because it was able to translate that political battle in winning many elections. But why is it falling apart? Why? Because it produces misery and because the economic system is a disaster.
在女性主义者的队伍中，可以说你会发现有相当多的施暴者和强奸犯。他们的虚伪行为非常引人注目。但这不仅仅是关于这一点。战争在三个层面上进行。首先是经济层面，即自由企业资本主义。然后是政治层面，目前世界设计的体系是一个带有制衡机制的共和自由民主制度。在文化战斗层面上，你会发现社会主义在文化战斗中非常成功。它在政治上也取得了相当的成功，因为它能够将这种政治斗争转化为赢得许多选举。但为什么它正在崩溃？原因是它带来了苦难，并且经济系统是一场灾难。
So people eventually realized that it is making things worse for them. Liberal libertarians are very good when it comes to economics. Yes. And those good economic results can actually lead to the generation of solid political processes. But what happened? The liberals neglected the cultural battle.
因此，人们最终意识到，这实际上让他们的情况变得更糟。自由派的自由主义者在经济方面非常出色。是的，这些良好的经济成果实际上可以带来坚实的政治进程。然而，问题出在于：自由派忽视了文化斗争。
Much of the blame was placed on Fukuyama when he said this is the end of history. No, it was not the end of history because the following year in 1990, the socialists gathered at the Sao Paulo and based on the ideas of Gramsci designed a strategy to infiltrate the media, culture, and education, which ended up changing the entire discourse. And they established that what they said was politically correct and that any idea outside of it was to be considered reactionary and had to be censored or even persecuted.
很多人把责任归咎于福山，因为他说历史终结了。但实际上，历史并没有终结，因为接下来1990年，社会主义者在圣保罗集会，并以葛兰西的思想为基础，设计了一项战略，旨在渗透媒体、文化和教育，最终改变了整个话语体系。他们确立了自己所说的即为政治正确，任何与之不同的观点都被视为反动，必须进行审查甚至打压。
And they claimed to be the ones defending freedom, even though they were the ones persecuting people. It's the same with journalists who get upset with Twitter. They say they defend freedom but can't stand it when those who think differently speak. Is that freedom? Yes, for them, but not for those who think differently. That's not freedom, that's fascism.
他们声称自己是在捍卫自由，然而他们却在迫害他人。对于那些因推特而生气的记者来说也是如此。他们号称捍卫自由，但却无法容忍与他们观点不同的人发声。这算是自由吗？对他们来说是，但对持不同观点的人来说不是。这不是自由，这是法西斯主义。
Then what do we say? Then we must fight on the economic front and I believe we are implementing an extremely successful economic program that is being recognized worldwide. In fact, the other night, the president-elect Donald Trump indeed gave recognition for the achievements we are having in Argentina and the speed at which we have done it.
那么我们该怎么说呢？那么我们必须在经济战线上继续努力，我相信我们正在实施一个非常成功的经济计划，并受到全世界的认可。实际上，就在前几天，当选总统唐纳德·特朗普确实对我们在阿根廷取得的成就和实现这些成就的速度给予了认可。
At the same time, you have to fight the political battle because well, soccer matches are not won by shouting from the stands. They are won by playing on the field. But that alone is not enough because you have to, let's say, you need to convey to society the values of capitalism, the free market, what liberalism is, the value of freedom, right? And when you succeed in that, then we will indeed be able to advance steadily.
同时，你必须参与政治斗争，因为足球比赛不是靠在看台上呐喊赢得的，而是靠在场上拼搏取胜的。但这还不够，因为你需要向社会传递资本主义、自由市场、自由主义是什么，以及自由的重要性。当你成功地做到这些，我们才能真正稳步前进。
If you don't fight the cultural battle, what happened in Chile will happen to you. They had economic success. It was, let's say, sustained over time. But at some point it collapsed. Why did it collapse? Because they hadn't fought the cultural battle. Then socialism, little by little, took control of institutions in education and the media. So they took over the media and culture and on that basis, they attacked and broke up the system and then they found themselves with increasing doses of socialism and the only thing socialism generates is poverty.
如果你不参与文化斗争，那么在智利发生的事情就会在你身上重演。他们曾经取得了经济上的成功，而且这种成功持续了一段时间。然而，在某个时刻经济崩溃了。为什么会崩溃呢？因为他们没有进行文化斗争。于是，社会主义逐渐在教育和媒体等机构中取得了控制权。他们接管了媒体和文化，利用这些优势攻击并瓦解了系统，结果就是社会主义渐渐地渗透，而社会主义带来的只有贫困。
Therefore, what you must keep in mind is that you have to fight the battles on all fronts. And if you don't keep that in mind, I can tell you are headed towards collapse. Like you said, in this fight against corruption, you are challenging some very powerful people, a powerful establishment. Are you ever afraid for your life? Potential assassinations? No.
因此，你必须记住的是，你需要在各个战线上作战。如果你不记住这一点，我敢说你将走向崩溃。正如你所说，在这场反腐斗争中，你是在挑战一些非常强大的人和势力。你是否担心自己的生命安全？比如可能遇到刺杀？不会。
Tell me, what good is it to live life? I mean, in slavery? Look, there is a song by a Spanish singer called Nino Bravo. Just to be clear, he has already left this earth so we can say he has passed on to the beyond. The song is called Libre. And the song, it tells the story of Peter Fetcha, an 18-year-old boy who, when the separation was made. And I mean, the construction of the Berlin Wall begins. His family ends up on the western side and he accidentally ends up on the eastern side. And for a whole year, he plans his escape to the western side, right?
告诉我，活着有什么好处？我是说，在奴役中生活？你看，有一首歌是由一位名叫Nino Bravo的西班牙歌手演唱的。要说明的是，他已经离开这个世界了，所以我们可以说他已经前往了另一个地方。这首歌叫《Libre》，讲述了一个名叫Peter Fetcha的18岁男孩的故事。那时，正值柏林墙开始修建的时候，他的家人留在了西边，而他却意外地到了东边。他花了一年的时间计划逃到西边，对吧？
And in that context, when he tries to escape, he gets murdered. So really, what is the point of life if it's not in freedom, right? I mean, what is the point of living without fighting for your values? If I am willing to give my life for my values, then what is the point of living without freedom? Look, can I tell you something interesting that happened to me here in the United States? I, let's say, back in the year 1998, I came to the United States to take a series of courses to improve my English, which I never use in formal terms because as president, as you can imagine, if I make a mistake, I can create a serious situation.
在这个背景下，当他试图逃跑时，他被杀了。所以，真的，生活的意义是什么，如果不是为了自由，对吗？我的意思是，如果生活不是为了争取自己的价值观，那又有什么意义呢？如果我愿意为了自己的价值观献出生命，那么没有自由的活着又有什么意义呢？听我说，我能和你分享在美国时发生的一件有趣的事情吗？可以这么说，1998年的时候，我来到美国参加了一系列课程，以提高我的英语。不过，作为总统，你可以想象，如果我出错了，可能会造成严重的局面，所以我在正式场合中从未使用。
Fortunately, I have an interpreter who is a superstar and if I make a mistake even in Spanish, he corrects me in the version of the other language. And so back then, in that year, I went to San Francisco and I visited Alcatraz. You're young, but I mean, the visit was an audio tour. You got a Walkman and you would choose the different tracks and listen to the story.
幸运的是，我有一位非常优秀的翻译员。如果我在讲西班牙语时犯了错误，他会在另一种语言的版本中纠正我。因此，那一年，我去了旧金山，参观了恶魔岛。你可能还年轻，但当时的参观是通过一个音频导览进行的。你会得到一个随身听，可以选择不同的音轨来听故事。
The most interesting thing is that the Alcatraz tour ended in the recreation yard where the basketball court, exercise areas, and all recreational facilities were located. So anyone would have thought that this was the best part of Alcatraz. And yet, what they said in the guide was that that was the hardest part for the inmates. Why? Because I mean, that recreation area in particular is built in front of the San Francisco Bay. So the inmates could all see how San Francisco continued to build up and evolve and develop every day. While they were locked up in there, they couldn't take part in that. They were confined in that prison and that made them fully aware of the value of freedom. So in my experience for me, the fight for freedom is relentless. Okay?
最有趣的是，恶魔岛的参观行程在娱乐场结束，那是篮球场、健身区和所有娱乐设施所在的地方。所以任何人都会认为这是恶魔岛最好的部分。然而，导游说对囚犯们来说，这却是最艰难的部分。为什么呢？因为那个娱乐区正对着旧金山湾，所以囚犯们可以看到旧金山每天都在不断地发展和变化。而他们被关在这里，无法参与。他们被禁锢在监狱中，这让他们深刻意识到了自由的价值。因此，在我看来，为自由而奋斗是无止境的。
I mean, my greatest hero in all of human history is Moses. The feet of Moses is like one person alone with his brother, Aaron, both confronting the combined forces of the United States, China and Russia together. And it was Moses who said to Ramses, let my people go. Well, Ramses resisted and the forces of heaven ran him over. But what I mean is, I don't see any other possible way to live other than with freedom. And I would always fight for full freedom. And I would be at the forefront of this cause. I mean, it's a cause that I'm going to die with my boots on. I mean, I'm not going to make do with living any other way other than with freedom. I will fight everything I'm going to fight as much as it takes. At least that's the way I feel. So what good is it to be alive if you're confined? What good is it to be alive if you're not free? It's no good. What good was it for Peter Fetchah to be alive in communist Germany? Well, at least he had a moment of happiness while he tried to escape.
在我看来，人类历史上最伟大的英雄是摩西。摩西的壮举就像他和弟弟亚伦两个人一起对抗美国、中国和俄罗斯的联合力量。而正是摩西对拉美西斯说：让我的人民走。虽然拉美西斯顽固抵抗，但最终天意战胜了他。我的意思是，我认为除了追求自由，没有其他可行的生活方式。我愿意永远为完全的自由而奋斗，并站在这项事业的最前线。这是我将奋战到底的使命，我绝不会妥协，只能以自由的方式生活。我会竭尽全力去争取。至少我是这样认为的。那么，如果被束缚着，活着又有什么意义？如果没有自由，活着又有什么价值？没有意义。比如说彼得·费希尔，在共产主义德国活着又有什么用？至少他在努力逃离时有过一刻的快乐。
Another guy who fights for freedom, freedom of speech in his cases, your new friend, Elon Musk, what do you admire and what have you learned from your interactions with Elon? I have a huge admiration for Elon Musk. He is a, he is an absolutely unconventional person. He's a great fighter for the ideas of freedom, what he has done on Twitter, now known as X. And how he is helping the world nowadays to wake up once and for all and become aware of the socialist virus, the woke virus, that in itself makes him a hero in the history of humanity. But it's not just that one of the things that happened to me is that when I went to first talk to him, I thought, uh, I was going to meet a successful businessman, end that I would have a typical successful businessman conversation who understands business and that some of his business is, some of his business, slightly more exotic. But that's the kind of talk you would expect to have and business people are truly admirable, right?
另一个为自由和言论自由奋斗的人，你的新朋友，埃隆·马斯克。你钦佩他什么，从与他的互动中学到了什么？我对埃隆·马斯克有极大的钦佩之情。他是一个完全特立独行的人，是自由理念的伟大战士。他在推特（现在被称为 X）上的所作所为，以及他如何帮助世界清醒过来，意识到所谓的社会主义病毒和觉醒病毒，这已经让他成为人类历史上的英雄。但不仅仅是这些，我第一次与他交谈时，本以为会见到一位成功的商人，会有典型的商业对谈，因为他理解商业，只不过他的一些业务稍显不同。但是，这种谈话就像你所期待的，与商业人士交谈，总是让人钦佩的，对吧？
Because they are true benefactors of society, but they are usually very much focused on their own business. And one of the things that really, really shocked me when I met Elon Musk, we had scheduled a meeting for, um, no more than 15 minutes. The first time we were in the meeting for a little over 45 minutes because he was about to miss his flu out to miss his flight. So obviously if someone as important as him doesn't fly as planned, it has to be rescheduled and he loses a lot of hours. Imagine every minute is very valuable. And, and one of the things that happened was that basically he brought up the topic of demography and we started discussing demographics and growth. I never imagined that I would end up discussing demographics and growth with him, you know. And another very fun thing was that, um, something funny he said to me was that, since we shared our vision regarding demographic issues, uh, and the need to populate the planet, he asked me, now what about you?
因为他们是社会的真正恩人，但通常非常专注于自己的业务。当我见到埃隆·马斯克时，他确实让我感到震惊。我们当时安排了一次不超过15分钟的会议。然而，第一次会议长达45分钟以上，因为他差点错过了飞行班次。他那么重要的人如果不能按计划飞行，就得重新安排，会浪费很多时间。他每一分钟都极为珍贵。
在这次会议中，他主动提到人口问题，我们开始讨论人口和增长的话题。我从没想过我会和他讨论这些。而且很有趣的是，他和我分享了我们关于人口问题及地球需要更多人口的看法后，问我：“那你呢？”
When are you going to move in that direction? I mean, I, said, oh, look, I have five children. And he said, well, the four legged ones don't count. That was, uh, the first, the first meeting I had with Elon Musk, the second, um, the second meeting was when here at the universities, we started seeing anti-Semitic demonstrations where basically Palestinian flags were displayed and Jews were harassed and persecuted. And, uh, at that moment when we had that second meeting, he showed himself to be very deeply involved with that and brought up the issue of the cultural battle. So I mean, it's not quite conventional, even in the political field.
你打算何时朝那个方向发展？我的意思是，我曾说过，我有五个孩子。他说，哦，有四条腿的不算数。那是我和埃隆·马斯克的第一次会面。第二次会面是在我们大学出现反犹太主义示威的时候，示威活动基本上是悬挂巴勒斯坦旗帜，犹太人受到骚扰和迫害。在我们第二次会面时，他表现出对此事的高度关注，并提到了文化斗争的问题。所以，我的意思是，这种行为在政治领域中也不太常见。
I, during our last talk, which lasted for about two and a half hours, right? One of the things we talked about was freedom and what was at stake for the United States in this, in this election. Uh, therefore, he is a person, you know, honestly, uh, I can say he is well above average. I mean, a person of unconventional intelligence, right? And also he is very charming. So I mean, again, I have a great admiration for him. And I really interact very closely with him. He is very interested in what our ministry of deregulation is doing, which seeks to remove regulations, but at the same time he works with another person who is also interested in the chainsaw approach. And so, um, I'm very pleased because they are going to try and replicate the model we are implementing in Argentina. And also, uh, Donald Trump himself is very enthusiastic about the idea that he is very interested in the way that he is. And also, uh, Donald Trump himself is very enthusiastic about this.
在我们上次长达两个半小时的谈话中，我们讨论了自由以及这次选举对美国的利害关系。坦率地说，他是一个远超平均水平的人。他拥有不寻常的智慧，而且非常有魅力。所以，我对他非常钦佩，并与他非常密切地互动。他对我们正在进行的取消监管措施非常感兴趣，这个项目旨在减少不必要的规章制度。同时，他还与另一个对“链锯式”方法感兴趣的人合作。我很高兴，因为他们计划尝试在阿根廷复制我们正在实施的模式。此外，唐纳德·特朗普本人对此也非常热衷。
So, and anything in the way of reducing regulations and cutting public spending and taking government out of the equation means more freedom for the people. So I'm very pleased with what's going on and with Trump's victory, because the United States will be better off. Argentina is going to be better too. And the whole world is going to be better off. Today, the world is a much better place than it was just a few days ago. Like you said, Elon and Vivek or Meswami are heading the Doge Department of Government Efficiency. So from your experience this year as president of Argentina and every chainsaw economic policies that you've implemented, what advice would you give to Elon and Vivek about how to do it in the United States? Just cut to the chase, cut to the chase, simple as that.
所以，任何减少监管、削减公共支出以及减少政府干预的做法，都意味着为人民带来更多自由。我对正在发生的事情以及特朗普的胜利感到非常高兴，因为这会让美国变得更好，阿根廷也会变得更好，而且整个世界都会变得更好。今天，世界比几天前好多了。就像你说的，Elon 和 Vivek（或 Meswami）负责政府效率的 Doge 部门。根据你今年作为阿根廷总统的经验以及你实施的所有经济政策，你会给 Elon 和 Vivek 什么建议，关于如何在美国实现这些目标？简单明了，直奔主题，就是这样。
I'll tell you a story and you're going to love it. Currently in Argentina, due to, to the political balance we've achieved, we have had certain powers delegated from Congress to the executive branch. And therefore, we can resolve it by decree that the regulation minister Federico Storsenaga in his ministry shows a counter that displays in front of everyone there. He displays the number of days, all right, during which the delegated powers will continue to be valid. Therefore, he has a whole deregulation division, also a public spending cut division and government structure reduction division. And he also has an elite core that's cleaning up all of the laws that hinder the economic system and progress. And every day he removes between one and five economic restrictions. So, my advice would be for them to go all the way to push it to the very limit and do not give up, do not let down their guard. Furthermore, that agenda does not have political purpose because at the end of the day, you are removing privileges. Of course, there will be people complaining, but those are people. These are people who are losing privileges, so they will have to explain to society why they are keeping those privileges. And that is quite uncomfortable.
我给你讲个故事，你一定会喜欢。目前在阿根廷，由于我们达成的政治平衡，国会将某些权力委托给了行政部门。因此，我们可以通过法令解决问题。在监管部长费德里科·斯托尔塞纳加的部门里，有一个柜台，向所有人展示权力委托有效的天数。他有一个完整的放松管制部门、削减公共开支的部门以及缩减政府结构的部门。他还有一个精英小组，负责清理所有阻碍经济系统和发展的法律。每天他都会移除一到五项经济限制。所以，我建议他们坚持到底，勇往直前，绝不放松警惕。此外，这个议程并没有政治目的，因为最终你是要去除特权。当然，会有人抱怨，但那些人只是失去特权的人，他们必须向社会解释自己为什么要保留这些特权，而这相当尴尬。
You've spoken with Donald Trump. Allegedly, he called you his favorite president. What did you discuss? And maybe again, what do you admire about President Trump? And what do you learn from him? There are several things that I admire about President Trump. The first is that he probably, I think he's provided ample proof of this in his first presidency. He understands the nature of the cultural battle. He has openly confronted socialism. His speeches openly target socialism. He perfectly understands the woke virus. And that that is, you know, of great value because it means understanding what it's all about. Another thing I truly admire about him is his courage. In fact, thankfully, thank goodness he didn't get assassinated or killed. But it was by a small chance occurrence that could have killed him just because he moved at the right moment. And yet that didn't intimidate him. And he went on. And in fact, during his first campaign, and in this one as well, in the second one and third one, they criticized him, insulted him, offended him, said awful things about him, made up all sorts of horrible stories about him. In that respect, I can say, I deeply relate because probably no one in our history has had such a negative campaign from all the media like they did to me. But let's say they were quite similar. This is why it's so interesting. And I was so deeply moved when last night I also got to meet Sylvester Stallone, you know, because Sylvester Stallone talks about, well, how important is that no matter how hard they hit you and keep on hitting you all the time? Despite all that, you keep going on and on and on. What I'm trying to say is that many of the many so many of Sylvester Stallone's approaches are truly inspirational, don't you think?
你与唐纳德·特朗普谈过话。据说，他称你为他最喜欢的总统。你们谈了些什么？以及，你欣赏特朗普总统的哪些特质？你从他那里学到了什么？
我欣赏特朗普总统的几个方面。首先，我认为他在第一任期中已经充分证明了这一点。他理解文化斗争的本质，并公开对抗社会主义。他的演讲公然以社会主义为目标。他完全理解“觉醒文化”的问题，而这一点非常重要，因为这意味着他了解事情的真正核心。
另外，我非常钦佩他的一点是他的勇气。事实上，感谢上帝他没有遭到暗杀或遇害。但有一次险些发生危险，仅因为他在关键时刻移动了位置而幸免于难。然而，这没有吓倒他，他继续前进。实际上，在他的第一次竞选期间，以及在第二次和第三次时，他们批评他，侮辱他，诽谤他，说了一些可怕的话，并对他编造了各种各样的故事。在这方面，我深有感触，因为大概没有人像我一样经历过媒体如此负面的竞选活动。但可以说，我们的经历非常相似。这就是为什么这件事情如此有趣。
我昨晚见到西尔维斯特·史泰龙时深受感动，因为史泰龙谈到无论别人对你如何打击、不断攻击你，你依然要坚持不懈。这让我想到，他的许多观点都很激励人心，你不觉得吗？
So imagine I'm about to give the speech and I see Sylvester Stallone and Sylvester Stallone knows me. It was truly insane. I had to pinch myself. I mean, this can't be true. And besides, well, the people were wonderful with me last night. They've been wonderful today. I've taken hundreds of selfies. I mean, it's truly been, I would say, it's been my break.
想象一下，我正要开始演讲时，我看到了西尔维斯特·史泰龙，而且西尔维斯特·史泰龙还认识我，这真的太疯狂了。我简直要掐自己一下，觉得这不可能是真的。除此之外，昨晚那些人对我很好，今天他们也依然很友好。我拍了数百张自拍。我觉得，这真的是我的一个突破。
Let me say after almost a year in office and having to face all sorts of media torture because so, because the journalists who have vested interests and are corrupt are professional torturers. Yes, because they invade your personal life, your family and your privacy. Let me tell you something to show you the kind of garbage the media in Argentina can do. They send three drones to spy on me at my presidential residence, to spy on me. Do you think that's right? Exactly. But that kind of thing happens in Argentina, not to mention the many lies and horrible things they say. I, for instance, remember that time when my father was hospitalized, my father is a man of a really strong character who has had two heart surgeries.
让我来说说，在任职几乎一年之后，我不得不面临各种媒体的折磨，因为有些记者有既得利益并且腐败，他们是专业的折磨者。是的，因为他们侵入你的个人生活、家庭和隐私。我告诉你一些事情，以展示阿根廷的媒体能做出怎样的垃圾行为。他们派了三个无人机来总统官邸监视我。你觉得这样做对吗？没错，但这种事情在阿根廷时有发生，更不用说他们说的许多谎言和可怕的事情了。比如，有一次我记得我父亲住院的那段时间，我父亲是一个性格非常坚强的人，曾经做过两次心脏手术。
All right. And one day, a journalist was saying all sorts of lies about my father. My father was hospitalized and, well, and he almost died of a heart attack. So that kind of thing is what journalism and the press do in Argentina. So they start to attack your private life, your mother, your father, your sister, even my dogs that I absolutely adore. They are the most wonderful beings in the universe. They even target my four legged children.
好的。有一天，一位记者在讲关于我父亲的各种谎言。我父亲住院了，差点因为心脏病发作而去世。这就是阿根廷的新闻界和媒体会做的事情。他们开始攻击你的私生活，你的母亲、父亲、姐妹，甚至我非常疼爱的小狗。它们是世界上最美好的生物。他们甚至攻击我这四条腿的小孩。
So imagine that I've been in office for nearly a year, a year as president, and since they can't criticize my management, except by lying and distorting the numbers, they meddle with all these things, things they have been doing all the time since the year 2021 when I officially entered politics. So, and I've seen what they've done to Trump. So that also makes me relate a lot to him because he's a true warrior. He's truly, he's a Viking. He's a Viking. He's literally a Viking. I mean, he is someone I admire for how he has kept fighting in the face of adversity, even against all odds.
想象一下，我担任总统差不多一年了。在这一年里，他们无法批评我的管理，只能通过撒谎和扭曲数据来攻击我。他们惹事生非，而这些事情他们自2021年我正式进入政坛以来一直在做。我也看到了他们对特朗普的所作所为，所以我对他感同身受，因为他是真正的战士，真的像个维京人，像个真正的维京人。我非常敬佩他，因为他即使面对种种逆境和不利局面，仍然坚持战斗。
And still, he managed to win. Amazing. And well, and that's why I can relate that much. And I've also seen how he's been unfairly criticized like when he was accused of protectionism or when he wanted to discuss some matters within the context of public debate, regarding the design of monetary policy as regards to Fed. And basically, they have accused him of things. I mean, isn't he entitled to give an opinion as a president? I mean, any citizen could give their opinion even more so a president.
尽管如此，他还是成功赢得了胜利，真是令人惊叹。这也是为什么我能如此产生共鸣。我也看到过他被不公平地批评，比如他被指责搞保护主义，或者他想在公共辩论中讨论一些与美联储货币政策设计相关的问题。他们基本上是在指责他。我是说，作为总统，他难道没有权利发表意见吗？任何公民都可以表达自己的看法，更何况是总统。
Why is it important to you that Argentina has a close relationship with the United States? Well, to us, that is truly important, okay? You know, because we've decided to be geopolitical allies of the United States ever since our campaign that our allies, we have decided that our allies will be the United States and Israel because they basically represent the ideas of the Western world. They represent the free world. That is to say what we would call today, let's say a liberal democracy, okay? By confronting the autocrats. And in that sense, that is the geopolitical alignment.
为什么阿根廷与美国保持密切关系对你来说很重要？嗯，对我们来说，这确实非常重要。你知道，因为自从我们的竞选活动以来，我们就决定与美国成为地缘政治盟友。我们选择美国和以色列作为盟友，是因为它们基本上代表了西方世界的理念。它们代表了自由世界，也就是我们今天所称的自由民主国家，通过抗衡专制国家。在这个意义上，这就是我们的地缘政治立场。
Moreover, in our campaign, we were very, very clear on three main points. One, the economic pillar, we talked about cutting public spending, and I would make my appearances with a chainsaw. We talked about economic freedom, deregulation, that is, and I talked about a competition of currencies and people, you know, obviously were interested in the dollar. So it was obvious that the economic policy was clear, all right? And not only was it clear, but we are also fulfilling it. That is the first point. Second was our policy on security, the idea being to fight crime. I mean, relentlessly, as well as security, no mercy, right? And in fact, in Argentina, there are no more roadblocks, which they said were impossible to end. Not only that, we have strengthened the security forces and also our armed forces, and we are waging a tough battle against drug trafficking and narco-terrorism.
在我们的竞选活动中，我们非常明确地提出了三个主要观点。首先是经济支柱，我们谈到了削减公共开支，我甚至带着电锯亮相。我们提到了经济自由和放松管制，特别是提到货币和人员的竞争，人们显然对美元很感兴趣。所以显然我们的经济政策非常清晰，不仅如此，我们也在切实履行这些政策。这是第一点。第二点是我们的安全政策，我们的目标是坚决打击犯罪，毫不留情。在阿根廷，已经不再有那些过去被认为无法消除的路障了。不仅如此，我们还加强了治安部队和武装力量，正在对毒品贩运和毒品恐怖主义进行强有力的打击。
Therefore, we are also strongly fulfilling that. Notice that these two points which were the main concerns, they were the biggest concerns of Argentinians when we took office are now in fifth and sixth place. Today, the problem for Argentinians is corruption, whether there is unemployment, if there is poverty, but they don't mention inflation and insecurity anymore. And besides, a third point that I made clear was that I would align with the United States and Israel internationally. And, you know, at my campaign rallies, there would be groups that would come along with flags of Israel. So it's clear that our international policy approach was always very clear.
因此，我们也在积极实现这些目标。请注意，这两个最初是阿根廷人民最关心的问题，现在已经降到了第五和第六位。如今，阿根廷人关注的问题是腐败、失业和贫困，但他们不再提及通货膨胀和治安问题。此外，我明确表示过的第三点是，我会在国际上与美国和以色列对齐。在我的竞选集会上，会有一些团体举着以色列的旗帜出现，所以很显然，我们的国际政策立场一直都非常明确。
And this is something I state during my speeches when I talk about the values of the West and the civilization of the West. In fact, yesterday and even more so today, during my speeches, I talked about how the different Greek groups or tribes go together to confront the Persians. That is to say, it seemed that from that time, 500 years before Christ until today, that struggle continues, right? But well, so of course, we're all in. We are betting on the United States becoming once again a leader in the West. We needed someone to come back, to make America great again.
这是我在演讲中谈到西方的价值观和文明时所提到的一件事。实际上，在昨天和今天的演讲中，我谈到了不同的希腊群体或部落是如何联合起来对抗波斯人的。也就是说，从那个时候，也就是公元前500年开始，这种斗争似乎一直延续到今天，对吧？但是，我们都全力以赴。我们希望美国能够再次成为西方的领导者。我们需要有人回来，让美国再次强大。
And that as part of that process, being a commercial ally is also a great idea. So we would really like to move forward and deepen our trade ties and our investment ties, you know, and well, we would also like to be part of the NATO as well. Do you think it's still possible? One of the radical ideas you had as you were running for president was to dollarize the Argentine economy. Do you think that's still a good idea? Are you still thinking about that? Let's see, let's break it down. Let's say I, if you review all my statements, I talk about currency competition.
作为这一进程的一部分，成为商业盟友也是一个很好的主意。所以我们真的很想推进并加深我们的贸易关系和投资关系。此外，我们也希望能加入北约。你觉得这还有可能吗？当你竞选总统时，你曾有一个激进的想法，就是将阿根廷经济美元化。你认为这仍然是个好主意吗？你还在考虑这个吗？让我们来分解一下，如果你回顾我所有的声明，我谈论的是货币竞争。
I'm not strictly talking about dollarization. I'm talking about currency competition and eliminating the central bank. If people later decide to embrace the dollar, that is their choice. Ultimately, in the model I propose, what happens is the formation of a currency basket tailored to the needs of individuals. But I won't avoid the discussion. Today, there is currency competition. If for instance, today in Argentina, you want to make transactions in any currency, you can do it and it's allowed. Today, there is currency competition.
我并不是单纯在谈论美元化。我说的是货币竞争和取消中央银行。如果人们后来决定选择使用美元，那是他们的选择。最终，在我所提议的模式中，会形成一个根据个人需求量身定制的货币篮子。不过，我不会回避这个讨论。如今，货币竞争确实存在。比如说，今天在阿根廷，如果你想用任何货币进行交易，你可以这样做，而且这是允许的。当今确实存在货币竞争。
The other thing we talk about is the concept of let's suppose we were discussing dollarization. We talk about endogenous dollarization. The first point is that you need to clean up the central bank. We had to deal with the issue of the C-I-R-A. That is the central bank's commercial debt, which was $50 billion. We still have to resolve the dividend problem of $10 billion. And in the meantime, we did a write-off and cleaned up the central bank's balance sheet by $45 billion. So you can't just close the central bank if it is bankrupt because you need to redeem the whole central bank debt, which is about the issuing of money and the interest-bearing liabilities.
我们还讨论了一个概念，比如说我们在讨论美元化的问题。我们谈到的是内生美元化。第一个要点是，你需要整顿中央银行。我们必须处理C-I-R-A的问题，这指的是中央银行的商业债务，总额达到了500亿美元。我们仍需解决100亿美元的股息问题。同时，我们进行了减记，清理了450亿美元的中央银行资产负债表。因此，即使中央银行破产了，你也不能简单地关闭它，因为你需要偿还整个中央银行的债务，这涉及到货币的发行和计息负债。
So once we've finished with the interest-bearing liabilities, it'll leave us with the monetary base. Therefore, today we have a regime where the amount of money is fixed. The monetary base is not growing, and as demand for money increases since people can use dollars, they don't need to go and sell the dollars and make the peso appreciate, but they can do transactions in dollars. So as the economy grows, you will have a greater share of dollars relative to pesos.
一旦我们处理完计息负债，就只剩下货币基础。因此，今天我们的制度是货币数量是固定的。货币基础没有增长，当对货币的需求增加时，人们可以使用美元，他们不需要去卖美元让比索升值，而是可以用美元进行交易。随着经济增长，美元相对于比索的份额会增加。
And at some point, the amount of pesos compared to the dollars will be so huge relatively, that closing down the central bank will be done easily, which means this is working. Of course, if you were to give me the money right now, I would go ahead and dollarize. I'd have no problem with that. For example, I did have a proposal for this, and this could have worked because the bonds, because the largest creditor of the Argentine treasury is the central bank. But central bank bonds were trading at 20 cents. If I had sold those bonds at 20 cents, and nowadays they are trading between 60 and 70 with the whole bunch of Neanderthals that are the opposition who besides being ignorant in economics also have bad intentions.
在某个时候，相比于美元，阿根廷比索的数量将会相对庞大，以至于关闭中央银行会变得很容易，这意味着这个计划正在奏效。当然，如果你现在把钱给我，我就会立刻进行美元化，我对此没有任何问题。例如，我确实有一个计划可以实现这点，因为阿根廷国库的最大债权人是中央银行。但当时中央银行的债券仅以20美分交易。如果我以20美分卖掉这些债券，现在它们的交易价格在60到70美分之间，而反对派中的一群人对经济无知且居心不良。
I would be in jail today. Let me ask you a very important, difficult question. I'm a huge fan, have been my whole life of Diego Maradona and Messi. So who to use the greatest football player of all time? The way I see it, I have seen Maradona play all right. I saw Maradona play in the past. I used to watch him. And I saw him during his last year at Argentina, before Boca Juniors in the year 1980. I saw him in 81 playing for Boca.
如果不是这样，我今天可能就在监狱里了。让我问你一个非常重要且困难的问题。我是马拉多纳和梅西的超级粉丝，一生都是。那么，谁是有史以来最伟大的足球运动员呢？在我看来，我看过马拉多纳的比赛。我曾经看过他比赛，见证了他在1980年前为阿根廷效力的最后一年，以及1981年为博卡青年队效力的表现。
I saw him play in the youth selection in Japan in 1979. I truly have immensely enjoyed the talent of Maradona. But without a doubt, the best soccer player of all time, not just from Argentina of all time, even better than Pele is Messi, of course. There is an article which is quite old already now titled Messi is impossible. And it looks at all of the positions a soccer player plays in. That is all positions a soccer player can play in from midfield forward.
我在1979年看过他在日本的青年选拔赛中比赛。我确实非常欣赏马拉多纳的天赋。但是毫无疑问，有史以来最好的足球运动员，不仅仅是来自阿根廷，而是所有时代最出色的，甚至比贝利更优秀的人是梅西，当然了。有一篇已经有些年头的文章标题是“梅西是不可思议的”，它分析了一个足球运动员可以参与的所有位置，从中场到前场。
Okay. And the most incredible thing is that Messi is the best in each of those positions. You can be the best in one or two positions. You see, Cristiano Ronaldo, for example, was very good in two areas of the game. So much so that he was almost like Messi, but he didn't take part in the rest. However, Messi is the best one in all respects. But at that time, of course, nowadays, you know, he is an older player, right? And I'm not sure whether he can still keep that performance on all fronts. But honestly, I have never in my life seen a player like Messi. I have never seen no one like him. For real. If you look at the number of goals he scored, I correct that considering the goal average in the days of Pele compared to Messi's golden era and his career now, the number of equivalent goals is much greater than that of Pele. Therefore, without a doubt, Messi is the greatest soccer player of all time. Of all time, no one compares to him. But it's not just the numbers or the World Cup win. It's the moments of genius on the field. Messi is unlike any other in that way. Messi does things that seem technically impossible. They seem physically impossible. The moves he makes don't respect human logic.
好的。最不可思议的是，梅西在每一个位置都是最好的。你可以在一两个位置上出色。比如说，C罗在比赛的两个方面非常出色，几乎接近梅西，但他没有参与其他方面。然而，梅西在各个方面都是最棒的。当然，现在他年纪大了，我不确定他是否还能在所有方面保持那样的表现。老实说，我这辈子从未见过像梅西这样的球员。我从未见过像他这样的人。真的。如果看看他进球的数量，再把当年贝利的进球平均数和梅西的黄金时代以及他目前的职业生涯相比，梅西的等效进球数要远高于贝利。因此，毫无疑问，梅西是有史以来最伟大的足球运动员。所有时代，没有人能与他媲美。这不仅仅是数字或者世界杯的胜利，而是他在场上的天才时刻。梅西在这方面与众不同。他做的事情在技术上看起来不可能，似乎也不可能在身体上做到。他的动作不遵循人类的逻辑。
It's like watching Usain Bolt run. It doesn't feel possible. He moves in a way that doesn't respect human logic. Am I right? Did you watch the 1986 World Cup with Maradona with a hand of God with the game against England? What was that like? Oh, yes. I do remember that very well. We watched it in the home of my godfather and saw how he did his gambit and dodged the team. The England team that was truly, it was absolutely, absolutely indescribable. There's no way to put it into words. It's as if I asked you to describe for me the love you have for your partner. You can't do that, right? I mean, it's something wonderful. You can't describe it. You cannot put it into words. There are things where words, I mean, you know, just seem to fail, am I right? I really think that there are times when humans or some humans, not all of them actually, some humans have the privilege of being able to vibrate closer to God. Some Puccini Aryas, for example, when you listen to them, when you listen to the famous Arya from La Rondine or the famous Arya from Gianni Shichi, I mean, you get the feeling that he was getting sedictated by God. How can you put that into words? You can't. There's no way you do that. I mean, those moments where we humans are that we have the privilege, I say it as human beings, right? Because I mean, I'm speaking from that perspective. Okay? I say this only as an admirer. Some human beings have the ability to vibrate so close to God that you can't describe it. You can only enjoy it. This is why in Judaism, they don't use the name of God, of the Creator, because how could you put in words something like that? And I believe those are times when us humans connect closer to the Creator and create things, unique things. You cannot describe them. There are no words to describe that. The only thing you can do is enjoy it and be thankful that you can witness it.
这就像在观看博尔特的奔跑，令人难以置信。他的动作无视人类逻辑，真是这样吗？你看过1986年世界杯马拉多纳“上帝之手”那场对阵英格兰的比赛吗？那是一种怎样的体验？哦，是的，我记得非常清楚。我们在我教父家观看了比赛，看他如何用技艺躲过英格兰队。英格兰队的表现简直难以形容。要用语言表达是不可能的，就像让我形容你对伴侣的爱一样，你无法描述，对吧？那是美妙无比的，你无法用语言描绘。有些事情，言语似乎无法表达，对吗？
我真的认为有时候，一些人，人类中的一部分，有幸能接近神灵。比如，当你听普契尼的某些咏叹调，比如《燕子》中的著名咏叹调或《贾尼斯基基》中的咏叹调，会觉得他仿佛是被神引导的。如何能用语言描述呢？无法做到。这些时刻，我们人类有幸可以更接近神灵，我这么说是从一个人类的视角出发，仅仅作为一个仰慕者。一些人有能力如此接近神灵，你无法描述，只能欣赏。这就是为什么在犹太教中他们不直接使用神的名字，因为如何能用言语描述这样的存在呢？我相信，那些时刻让我们与创造者更紧密相连，创造出独特之物。你无法用语言描述，只能去享受，去感恩能够亲眼见证。
You were a great footballer yourself in your youth. You were a goalkeeper. Many people would say that's the toughest and the most important position in football. Maybe you could speak about that experience. And in general, what's harder being a goalkeeper or president? Lovely question. Well, indeed, I used to be a goalkeeper, but I'm not so sure about whether I was any good. But you know, the experience of having been a goalkeeper is very valuable.
在年轻的时候，你自己也是一位出色的足球运动员。你是一名守门员。很多人会说，这是足球中最艰难且最重要的位置。或许你可以谈谈这段经历。一般来说，做守门员和当总统哪个更难？这是个好问题。嗯，确实，我曾是一名守门员，但我不太确定自己是否真的很出色。不过，你知道，曾作为一名守门员的经历是非常宝贵的。
First, the goalkeeper is the only player that can use their hands in a certain sector of the pitch in the area. The other thing is that he's also the only player who dresses differently, right? Moreover, their training is a solitary one. And the most important, I mean, it is the very climax, the goal, right? When the goal is scored by their team, everyone is celebrating on the other side and the goalkeeper is on his own. And at the same time, he is the one who suffers the most when a goal is scored, because he gets the direct impact.
首先，守门员是在场地的特定区域内唯一可以用手的球员。除此之外，他也是唯一穿着不同球衣的球员，对吧？此外，守门员的训练是相对孤独的。最重要的是，当球队进球时，这对于比赛来说是一个高潮，对吧？进球的时候，其他队员在另一边庆祝，而守门员却是独自一人。同时，当对方进球时，他承受的压力最大，因为他直接面对进球的影响。
In fact, when the goalkeeper makes a mistake, it's an own goal. Imagine a teammate scores a wonderful goal like the one Maradona did. It's marvelous. And that's just one goal. And imagine the goalkeeper picks up the ball and then if they bring it into the area wrongly, it's like two goals. It's a complete lack of proportion. So therefore, in my opinion, goalkeepers have a very strong temperament, right? They are used to being alone and power is precisely that because when you make decisions, you are on your own.
事实上，当守门员犯错时，就像是一个乌龙球。想象一下，如果队友射门得分，而且这个进球像马拉多纳那样精彩。这是很了不起的。但这只是一个进球。而如果守门员拿到球后错误地带入禁区，就像被扣掉了两个进球。这是不成比例的。因此，在我看来，守门员需要有非常强的心理素质。他们习惯于独立面对，因为当你做决定时，通常都是单独行动的。
And not just that, but also when you have a responsibility, like that of a president, when you make a decision, it has an impact on millions of people. So just like goalkeepers, if you make a mistake and score an own goal, and in this context, it's negative consequences for millions of people. Therefore, that has been part of the University of life that has given me the tools to be president today. That is my training in economics, my training in liberalism, having been a goalkeeper and also having had a very tough childhood. How hard is it? What's been the personal toll of carrying the hope of a nation on your shoulders?
不仅如此，当你承担像总统这样的责任时，你做出的每一个决定都会影响数百万人。就像守门员一样，如果你犯了错误，就可能导致本方进球失误。在这种情况下，这意味着数百万人会受到负面影响。因此，这些经历成为了生活大学的一部分，给了我今天担任总统的工具。这些包括我在经济学上的训练、自由主义的教育、做过守门员以及经历过艰辛的童年。承担一个国家期望的压力有多大？这对个人的影响有多深？
Well, you know, being defamed, insulted and attacked every single day. But again, there's no point in life. If it's not with freedom, so like Sylvester Stallone once said, the secret to life is to carry on in spite of the blows you get, the punches you take. And fortunately, we have been able to carry on in spite of the blows, both coming at us from in front and from behind our backs, because it has been more honest if we had been attacked directly. But well, you know, in Argentina, politics and the mass media, they do love to attack behind your back.
好吧，你知道的，每天被诋毁，侮辱和攻击。但是，如果生活中没有自由，那就没有意义。就像西尔维斯特·史泰龙曾经说过的，生活的秘诀就是在遭受打击时仍能继续前行。幸运的是，无论是正面的还是背后的攻击，我们都能够继续坚持下去。如果直接面对攻击也许会更诚实，但在阿根廷，政治和大众媒体确实喜欢背后攻击。
What role has God played in your life? And who is God? Well, faith, I'd say, has been a very fundamental element, you know? And especially in recent times during which I've become actively involved, particularly in the teachings of Judaism and in the study of the Torah. This has given me a huge, let's say, a huge background to face the many adversities which I've encountered and had to overcome in the last few years. And as to who God is, he's the creator, the maker, I call him the one. What is the better guide for humanity, the invisible hand of the market or the hand of God? They're perfectly in sync.
上帝在你生活中扮演了什么角色？上帝是谁？我认为信仰一直是一个非常基础的元素，尤其是在最近这段时间，我开始积极参与犹太教的教义以及研究《圣经》。这让我在面对过去几年遇到的许多困难时，有了很大的支持和力量。至于上帝是谁，他是创造者，我称他为独一无二的主。人类更好的指引是市场的“无形之手”还是上帝之手？它们是完全同步的。
Well enough. Again, going back to your youth, your lead singer in a rod band, who is the greatest rock star of all time? Okay. Well, the way I see it, the most amazing rock singer in history of mankind was definitely Elvis Presley. And my favorite band is the Rolling Stones. So I also greatly admire Mick Jagger, you know, and I still have this dream of getting to meet him in person. How fun would it be to play together with the stones? That would be a big, big dream. Don't get my hopes up because I set goals and then I go and achieve them.
好的。回到你的年轻时代，你是乐队的主唱，那你心中有史以来最伟大的摇滚明星是谁？嗯，我认为历史上最令人惊叹的摇滚歌手无疑是猫王（埃尔维斯·普雷斯利）。我最喜欢的乐队是滚石乐队，所以我也非常敬佩米克·贾格尔。你知道，我一直梦想着能够亲自见到他。和滚石乐队一起演奏会多有趣啊！那将是一个非常非常大的梦想。但别让我太过期待，因为我设定了目标就会去实现它们。
Well, I'm close friends with a band that opens for the stones. So I would love to see this happen. Oh, well, that would be great. Or we could also watch the whole concert from the stage. I mean, I can't keep ruining the Rolling Stones' music. I already had a tribute band and did quite a lot of damage to the music. How much of your rock star roots define your approach to politics, to life? Do you see yourself as a kind of showman in part? Of course. Absolutely. My idea is that when you attend one of our events, it feels like going to a Rolling Stones concert.
好吧，我和一个为滚石乐队做开场的乐队关系很密切。所以我很想看到这件事情发生。哦，那太好了。或者我们也可以从舞台上观看整个演唱会。我是说，我不能总是破坏滚石乐队的音乐。我已经有一个致敬乐队，并对音乐造成了相当多的损害。在多大程度上，你昔日摇滚明星的背景影响了你对政治和生活的态度？你是否部分认为自己是一个表演者？当然，绝对是。我的想法是，当你参加我们的一次活动时，会感觉像是在参加一场滚石乐队的演唱会。
In fact, in one of my most recent performances at Luna Park, I even had the pleasure of singing in front of 10,000 people. It's on YouTube. No, sorry. Not on YouTube. It's on my Instagram feed. At that event, I sang a song called Panic Show. And the song starts by saying, Hi, everybody. I am the lion. Your intensity and passion have earned you the nickname El Loco, the madman. Do you think some madness is necessary to challenge the powerful establishment? Well, maybe it's a matter of perspective, right? It could be the other way around.
事实上，在我最近一次在卢纳公园的演出中，我还有幸在一万名观众面前演唱。这个表演不是在YouTube上，而是在我的Instagram动态中。在那次活动中，我演唱了一首叫《恐慌秀》的歌曲。这首歌以“大家好，我是狮子”开头。你的激情和热情让你得到了“疯子”（El Loco）的绰号。你认为挑战强大的权威需要一些疯狂吗？嗯，也许这只是一个视角的问题，对不对？也许情况正好相反。
That everyone else is crazy by living in a way contrary to the ideas of freedom. And so maybe the same person who wants to fix that is then considered a madman. Anyway, the nickname doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I even enjoy it because I've been called like that since I was 10 years old. So it's not something that particularly bothers me, you know, because it's a nickname that, well, it's, it has been used for many years. But actually, if I present to you the case of San Martin, when he said he was going to cross the Andes to liberate not only Argentina, not only our country, but also Chile and Peru. And people called him crazy.
大家都认为那些与自由观念相悖的生活方式是疯狂的。因此，也许那个想要改变这种状况的人反而被认为是疯子。不过，那个绰号对我来说完全没有困扰。事实上，我甚至很喜欢这个绰号，因为从我10岁起人们就这样叫我了。所以，这对我来说并不是特别烦恼的事，你知道的，因为这个绰号已经用了很多年。但是，其实如果我举圣马丁的例子，当他宣布要跨越安第斯山脉来解放不仅是阿根廷，不仅是我们的国家，还有智利和秘鲁时，人们也称他为疯子。
Imagine if you had tried and spoken with, I don't know, with Michelangelo, you would have called him crazy too. Or if you had talked to, I don't know, hundreds of people who have changed the world, surely they would have thought that Einstein was crazy and so on. The list would be infinite. So what is the difference between a madman and a genius? And in the past, the question was, success. Let me ask you about the market. It's so interesting.
想象一下，如果你曾尝试与米开朗基罗交谈过，或许你也会认为他很疯狂。如果你与那些改变世界的名人交谈过，比如说爱因斯坦，你很可能也会觉得他们很疯狂。这样的人还有很多。那么，疯子和天才之间的区别到底是什么呢？在过去，成功是其中的关键。让我来问你关于市场的看法，这真的很有趣。
From your view of the world, how powerful the market is at figuring out what's best for society. Why do you think the market works so well as a guide for humanity? Understand what the market is? Simply put, the market is a process of voluntary exchange where individuals cooperate through the transfer of property rights, in which private property is upheld. This is the system that drives the allocation of resources. In essence, socialism, and this is what Mises condemns in his book, socialism, shows is that without private property, prices cease to exist and therefore resources are diverted.
从你的世界观来看，市场在为社会找出最佳方案方面有多大力量。你为什么认为市场是人类的优秀指南？了解市场是什么吗？简单来说，市场是一个自愿交换的过程，在这个过程中个人通过财产权的转移进行合作，私有财产得到了维护。这就是资源配置的驱动系统。本质上，社会主义——这也是米塞斯在他的书中所批评的——表明如果没有私有财产，价格就不会存在，因而资源会被误导。
Why don't you think it's the same to make a road of asphalt or gold? Why not make it of gold? Because you have an understanding of economic calculation, you have an idea of prices in your mind. So in this context, if there is no private property, there are no prices and as a result, the free market capitalism is the best mechanism ever developed by humankind for resource allocation. This also implies that markets must be free, free from state intervention, because when the state intervenes, it creates interference and markets need to allow free entry and exit, what we call competition.
为什么你认为用沥青铺路和用黄金铺路不一样？为什么不用黄金铺路？这是因为你对经济计算有一定的理解，你心里有价格的概念。在这种情况下，如果没有私有财产，就没有价格，因此自由市场资本主义是人类为资源配置开发出的最佳机制。这也意味着市场必须是自由的，免受国家干预，因为国家干预会导致干扰，市场需要允许自由进出，也就是我们所说的竞争。
However, it's better to understand competition. In the sense described by Israel Kirtzner, one of the foremost figures of the Austrian school or in the neoclassical framework, as William Baumel understood it, which was the concept of free entry and exit in so-called contestable markets. And also, let's talk about what pertains to the division of labor and social cooperation. The most wonderful thing about capitalism is that you can only be successful by serving others with better quality goods at a better price. If you are successful, in the free market capitalism, you are a hero, you are a social benefactor, you are a prosperity machine. So the better you do, you know, the better you do, the better it is for society.
然而，理解竞争是更好的选择。以色列·科兹纳（Israel Kirzner），奥地利经济学派的代表人物之一，或在威廉·鲍莫尔（William Baumol）理解的新古典框架中，描述的竞争是在所谓可竞争市场中自由进入和退出的概念。我们还可以谈谈与劳动分工和社会合作有关的内容。资本主义最美妙的地方在于，你只能通过为他人提供更高质量、更低价格的商品来获得成功。在自由市场资本主义中，如果你成功了，你就是英雄，你是社会的恩人，你是一台繁荣机器。因此，你做得越好，对社会就越有利。
This is very important. I remember when I had my first meeting with Elon Musk, and this made me admire him greatly. And this is something my sister commented on too. You know, Elon Musk told me something he does every day. He wakes up every morning thinking about what problem he could fix for humanity. That's amazing. Of course, what is the counterpart being successful, therefore, in that sense, and moreover, in my view, on how the system works, on how the market works, market failures do not exist. That is to say, that is a problem.
这非常重要。我记得我第一次见到埃隆·马斯克时，他让我非常敬佩。我姐姐对此也发表了评论。你知道吗，埃隆·马斯克告诉了我他每天都做的一件事。他每天早上醒来都会思考他能为人类解决什么问题。这是非常了不起的。当然，从某种意义上说，成功的反面是什么，再者，在我看来，市场运作的方式、系统运作的方式都表明市场失灵是不存在的。也就是说，这就是一个问题。
All right. A problem for neo-classical economies because of the mathematical tools they've used to develop economic analysis, but actually, it's not a real issue in everyday life. It's a problem in the minds of economists. In fact, my latest book called Capitalism, Socialism, and the neo-classical trap deals precisely with this issue. Yeah, you've outlined these ideas in capitalism, socialism, and then neo-classical trap. So the trap is that there's no such thing as a middle ground. It's either capitalism, socialism, and every middle ground ends up in a state of socialism.
好的。对于新古典经济学来说，这是一个问题，因为它们使用数学工具来发展经济分析，但实际上，这在日常生活中并不是一个真正的问题。这是经济学家头脑中的问题。实际上，我最新的书《资本主义、社会主义和新古典陷阱》正是讨论这个问题的。你已经在《资本主义、社会主义和新古典陷阱》中概述了这些观点。这个陷阱是：不存在所谓的中间立场，要么是资本主义，要么是社会主义，任何中间立场最终都会走向社会主义状态。
Well, actually, that is what Mises said that there were. He said that there are only two systems, free enterprise capitalism and socialism. And he also pointed out, and this is proven in Hayek's book, The Road to Serfdom, that any middle ground solution is unstable in terms of capitalism, meaning it tends towards socialism. So when you implement an intervention, it causes government failure, which then triggers further intervention, setting up a trap that results in more and more intervention. And in this context, the neo-classicals with their market failure theory are in fact dealing with problems that are fundamentally mathematical, rather than making the world a better place, they have, if you will, been instrumental in increasing the levels of intervention.
实际上，这正是米塞斯所说的：只有两种制度，自由企业资本主义和社会主义。他还指出，如哈耶克在《通往奴役之路》一书中所证实的那样，任何折中的解决方案在资本主义体系中是不稳定的，即它倾向于社会主义。因此，当你进行干预时，会导致政府失效，继而引发进一步的干预，形成一个陷阱，导致越来越多的干预。在这种情况下，新古典主义经济学家用他们的市场失灵理论实际上是在处理一些根本上是数学性质的问题，而不是在改善世界，某种程度上，他们实际上在促进更多干预。
Let me tell you something. Well, you know, I have an economist as chairman of the President's Advisory Council, Dr. Demian Radell, who studied here at Harvard University and completed his PhD, was mentored by Kenneth Rogoff, the American economist. And Rogoff has said that Dr. Radell was his best student. Nowadays, we're actually working with Dr. Radell specifically on all these issues that arise from, you know, the interventions proposed proposed by the mainstream, such as the so-called correction of market failures.
让我告诉你一些事情。我有一位经济学家担任总统顾问委员会的主席，他叫德米安·拉德尔博士。他在哈佛大学学习并完成了博士学位，师从美国经济学家肯尼思·罗格夫。罗格夫曾表示，拉德尔博士是他最优秀的学生。现在，我们正在与拉德尔博士合作，特别是针对那些由主流提出的干预措施所引发的问题，比如所谓的市场失灵矫正。
And a few days ago, he conducted a survey of search algorithms and policy recommendations. And that resulted in a map painted from red to blue. And well, the redder it was, the more it was linked to socialism. There was an intermediate thing that was yellow and blue was free market ideas. And one of the things he discovered as part of that graph for chart was that the largest, the largest number of policy recommendations scandalously are actually left leaning. So that is the empirical evidence of what I pointed out in the book, capitalism, socialism, and the neoclassical trap.
几天前，他对搜索算法和政策建议进行了调查。结果显示，他制作了一张从红色到蓝色的地图。地图上越红，意味着与社会主义的关联越多。中间的黄色代表中间立场，而蓝色则代表自由市场的理念。他在这张图表中发现，一个值得注意的现象是，数量最多的政策建议竟然偏向左翼。这就是我在书中《资本主义、社会主义与新古典陷阱》所指出的实证证据。
You mentioned your four-legged children. What have you learned about life from your dogs? Well, from my four-legged children, I have learned unconditional love. In fact, well, my name in Hebrew means loyal friend, faithful friend. And on the Chinese horoscope, I am dog. And if there's one thing that defines me is loyalty being decent. And those virtues, you can find them in those wonderful beings that dogs are who love unconditionally. In fact, they are superior beings, right? Spiritually speaking, in my case, because you know, I don't forget or forgive those who have harmed me.
你提到你的四条腿的孩子。从你的狗身上你学到了什么人生道理？从我的四条腿的孩子身上，我学到了无条件的爱。事实上，我的名字在希伯来语中意味着忠诚的朋友、可信赖的朋友。在中国的生肖中，我属狗。如果有什么能定义我的，那就是忠诚和正直。而这些美德都可以在狗这种充满无条件爱的美好生物中找到。实际上，从精神层面上讲，它们是更高尚的生物，因为我自己不会忘记或原谅那些伤害过我的人。
That is to say, all those who have insulted, defamed me and criticized me. I remember each one of them. But I don't have the greatness needed to forgive them. On the topic of loyalty in politics, I'm sure there's been a lot of people, some people who have betrayed you. Does that hurt your heart? It depends because you sometimes think that you can expect some people to be loyal. And if they betray you, of course, that hurts. But some people, you actually don't expect anything from them. So if there's betrayal, I mean, you won't be annoyed or feel bad because you owe it to someone who didn't share your values.
也就是说，所有侮辱、诽谤和批评过我的人，我都记得。但是我没有足够的胸怀去原谅他们。讨论到政治忠诚这一话题时，我相信有许多人，其中一些人可能背叛了你。这会让你伤心吗？这得看情况，有时你觉得可以期待某些人的忠诚，如果他们背叛了你，当然会感到受伤。但是对某些人来说，你其实并不期待他们的忠诚。所以如果有背叛，我的意思是，你不会生气或感到不悦，因为你不欠不跟你共享价值观的人什么。
But politics does have that, you know, sometimes many of the people you may come across don't have the values you advocate for, but it's cost benefit. You need to let the ship sail on, right? Or would you rather let it sink? That's not my case. I fight until the end. There are traitors, but that's part of politics. And that's not my line. But of course they do exist.
但是政治确实有这样的情况，你知道的，有时候你遇到的人可能没有你所倡导的价值观，但这是权衡利弊的问题。你需要让船继续航行，对吧？还是说你宁愿让它沉没？那不是我的做法。我会战斗到最后。政治中有背叛者，但这就是政治的一部分。这不是我的路线，但他们确实存在。
There are a lot of people who admire your revolutionary spirit. What advice would you give them? Maybe young people on how to live a life like yours and have an impact on the world like you have begun to do. I didn't do this thinking about having an impact on the world. I have defined what makes me happy and I live according to that. I live consistently by that. And most importantly, I would say never give up moreover, and above all, never be half-hearted. I would rather cry because I failed rather than not crying because I never tried.
有很多人钦佩你的革命精神。你会给他们什么建议呢？或许是给年轻人一些建议，如何像你那样生活，并对世界产生影响。我并没有想着要对世界产生影响才去做这些事情。我定义了让我快乐的事情，并按照这个去生活。我始终如一地坚持这一点。最重要的是，我想说永不放弃，而且绝对不要半途而废。我宁愿因为失败而哭泣，也不愿因为从未尝试过而不哭泣。
I mean, I'm a perfectionist, so when I do air, of course, I have a bad time. But still, I prefer to go and get things done. If it goes wrong, it's part of life. But I will never, never have to regret not having done what I thought needed to be done at that moment. What gives you hope about the future of Argentina and the future of humanity? Well, the fact that thanks to social media and to the whole tech revolution going on, every day more and more people are becoming aware of how important freedom is to live, to live in peace and prosperity.
我的意思是，我是个完美主义者，所以当我犯错时，我会感到很糟糕。但即便如此，我还是倾向于去完成事情。如果出错了，那也是生活的一部分。但我永远不会后悔没有在那个时刻去做我认为需要做的事情。是什么让你对阿根廷的未来和人类的未来抱有希望呢？事实上，由于社交媒体和正在进行的技术革命，越来越多的人开始意识到自由对和平和繁荣生活的重要性，这让我对未来充满希望。
And I believe even though bureaucrats and the elites fight untiringly to enslave us, a way for freedom has been unleashed, which if we do wage the fight, we'll have a much better world. What is your famous words of evil or the leopardad? How did that come about? And what does it mean to you? Long live freedom, dammit. You know, that first started while I was giving my book presentations at the end of my presentation, I would say, viva la libarta carajo. And that really stuck with me since then. Without thinking about it, throughout my life, it was going to continue being present. In fact, today, my presentations, all of my speeches end with, may God bless the Argentinians. May the forces of heaven be with us and viva la libarta carajo.
我相信，尽管官僚和精英们不懈地试图奴役我们，但一条通向自由的道路已经开启，如果我们勇敢地参与斗争，我们将迎来一个更加美好的世界。你有什么著名的邪恶名言或关于豹纹的故事？这句话是怎么来的？对你来说意味着什么？让自由长存，该死的。你知道的，这句话最初是在我做书籍演讲时产生的。在演讲结束时，我会说“viva la liberta carajo（该死的，自由万岁）！”从那时起，这句话就深深地印在了我的心里。实际上，直到今天，我的演讲还是以“愿上帝保佑阿根廷人民，愿苍天的力量与我们同在，以及‘viva la liberta carajo’”结尾。
The first phrase reflects my faith in God fervently. And that I'm deeply thankful to the creator, for their wonderful things he has bestowed upon me daily. The second one has to do with a quote from the book of Maccabees, 319, which says that victory in battle doesn't depend on the size of the army, but on the forces of heaven. This has to do with the victory of the Jewish people, the Maccabees against the Greeks and how they recovered the temple. And the last one, well, is my war cry. Well, there's no better way to end it.
第一句表达了我对上帝的深深信仰，并且我非常感激造物主每天赐予我的美好事物。第二句引用了《马加比书》第三章第19节的内容，指出战斗的胜利不取决于军队的规模，而在于天上的力量。这与犹太人马加比人对抗希腊人并收复圣殿的胜利有关。最后一句则是我的战斗口号，这样结束再好不过了。
Thank you for being a warrior for freedom. And thank you for talking today. Thank you very much indeed for your interview. And thank you for being so well educated, because very often interviewers are not like that. And you did have windows to play fall and you didn't and I recognize that and I thank you for that. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Javier Malay. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from George Orwell. In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. Thank you for listening. And hope to see you next time.
感谢你为自由而战，也感谢你今天的交流。非常感谢你接受采访，并且谢谢你的良好教育背景，因为很多采访者并不具备这样的条件。你有机会可以出错，但是你没有这样做，我对此表示感谢。谢谢你。感谢你收听与哈维尔·马莱的对话。要支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在让我用乔治·奥威尔的一句话结束：“在充满欺骗的时代，说真话是一种革命行为。”感谢你的收听，希望下次再见到你。