Dr. Allan Schore: How Relationships Shape Your Brain
发布时间 2024-11-11 13:01:08 来源
摘要
In this episode, my guest is Dr. Allan Schore, Ph.D., a faculty member in the department of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at ...
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中英文字稿 
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Alan Schor. Dr. Alan Schor is a clinician psychoanalyst and he is the world expert in how childhood attachment patterns impact our adult relationships, including romantic relationships, friendships and professional relationships, as well as our relationship to ourselves. Dr. Schor is all in the faculty in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine. He is also the author of several important books including Right Brain Psychotherapy and Development of the Unconscious Mind. Today's discussion with Dr. Schor is an extremely important one for everyone to hear, to understand themselves and to understand the people in their lives.
欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，在这里我们讨论科学以及应用于日常生活的科学工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天，我的嘉宾是Alan Schor博士。Alan Schor博士是一位临床精神分析师，他是研究童年依恋模式如何影响我们成年后关系的世界级专家，包括浪漫关系、友谊、职场关系以及与自我的关系。Schor博士也是加州大学洛杉矶分校医学院精神病学与行为科学系的教员。他还著有多本重要书籍，包括《右脑心理治疗》和《无意识心灵的发展》。今天与Schor博士的讨论对每个人都非常重要，有助于理解自己以及生活中的他人。
Why? Well, we all go through the first 24 months of age. You wouldn't be listening to this if you hadn't. And during that first 24 months of age, your brain develops in a particular way depending on how you interacted with your primary caretaker. Namely your mother, but also your father or other primary caretakers. In that first 24 months, your right brain and your left brain mediate very specific but different processes. For instance, today you'll learn from Dr. Schor that your right brain circuitry, that is, specific circuaries on the right hand side of your brain, are involved in developing a very specific type of resonance with your primary caretaker that transitions from states of calm and quiescence that you both share simultaneously to states that are considered up states of excitement, of enthusiasm, of being wide-eyed.
为什么呢？我们都经历过生命的前24个月。如果没有经历过，你就不会在这里听这段话。在这24个月里，你的大脑会根据你与主要照顾者的互动方式发育，通常是你的母亲，但也可能是你的父亲或其他主要照顾者。在这段时间里，你的大脑左、右半球会调节一些特定但不同的过程。比如，今天你将从Schor医生那里了解到，你大脑右侧的神经回路会参与与主要照顾者建立一种特定的共鸣。这种共鸣可以使你们共同从平静和安宁的状态，逐步过渡到那种兴奋、热情、瞪大眼睛的兴奋状态。
And the transitioning back and forth between those states, as Dr. Schor explains, is critical to our emotional development and how we form attachments later. So if you've heard, for instance, of avoidant attachment or anxious attachment or secure attachment, today you'll understand why those particular attachment styles develop, how they translate from early life to your adolescence, teen years and adulthood, and in fact how those childhood attachment patterns, which of course we can't control for ourselves, but we can control for our children, how we can modify them through very specific protocols in order to achieve better relations with both others and with ourselves. It's indeed a very special conversation and to my knowledge, unlike any other discussions about relationships, neuroscience or psychology that certainly I have heard before, and I fully expect that for you, it will be as well.
转变回到不同的心理状态，正如Schor博士所解释的，对于我们的情感发展和未来的依恋关系形成至关重要。如果你听说过"回避型依恋"、"焦虑型依恋"或"安全型依恋"，今天你将会理解这些特定的依恋风格是如何发展的，它们如何从早期生活转变到青少年时期和成年阶段。事实上，这些童年时期的依恋模式本来我们无法为自己控制，但我们可以为孩子去控制，并通过非常具体的方法来调整它们，以便更好地与别人以及自己建立关系。这是一场特别的对话，据我所知，与以前我所听过的关于关系、神经科学或者心理学的讨论都不一样，我完全相信对你来说，这也是一次独特的体验。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein. These bars from David also taste amazing.
在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客是独立于我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作的。然而，这是我努力向公众免费提供科学信息及相关工具的一部分。为了符合这一主题，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是David。David的蛋白棒与众不同，每根含有28克蛋白质，只有150卡路里，并且不含糖。没错，28克蛋白质，并且75%的卡路里来自蛋白质。而且，这些David的蛋白棒味道非常好。
My favorite flavor is chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again I also like the chocolate fudge flavored one and I also like the cake flavored one. Basically, I like all the flavors. They're incredibly delicious. For me personally, I strive to eat mostly whole foods. However, when I'm in a rush, or I'm away from home, or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high quality protein source. With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight each day. And it allows me to do that without taking in excess calories. I typically eat a David bar in the early afternoon or even mid afternoon if I want to bridge that gap between lunch and dinner. I like that it's a little bit sweet, so it tastes like a tasty snack, but it's also given me that 28 grams of very high quality protein with just 150 calories. If you would like to try David, you can go to DavidProteen.com slash Huberman.
我最喜欢的口味是巧克力曲奇生面团味，不过，我也喜欢巧克力软糖味和蛋糕味。基本上，我喜欢所有口味，因为它们非常美味。对我个人来说，我尽量多吃全食物。然而，当我赶时间、外出，或者只是想找个下午的小吃时，我经常会寻找高质量的蛋白质来源。通过David，我可以在摄入少量卡路里的情况下获得28克蛋白质，每天这让我很容易达到每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标，而且不会摄入过多的卡路里。我通常会在下午早些时候或午餐和晚餐之间的时间吃一根David能量棒。我喜欢它稍微有点甜味，所以它尝起来像个美味的小吃，同时只用150卡路里的热量提供28克高质量的蛋白质。如果你想尝试David，你可以访问DavidProtein.com / Huberman。
Again, the link is DavidProteen.com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Ate Sleep. Ate Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night. Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about 1 to 3 degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about 1 to 3 degrees. Ate Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night. I've been sleeping on an Ate Sleep mattress cover for nearly 4 years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. Ate Sleep recently launched their newest generation of the pod cover called the Pod 4 Ultra. The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity. I find that very useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up. That's what gives me the most slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep. It also has a snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring. If you'd like to try an Ate Sleep mattress cover, you can go to 8sleep.com slash Huberman to access their Black Friday offer right now. With this Black Friday discount, you can save up to $600 on their Pod 4 Ultra. This is Ate Sleep's biggest sale of the year. Ate Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU and Australia. Again, that's Ate Sleep.com slash Huberman.
再次提醒，链接是 DavidProteen.com 斜杠 Huberman。今天的节目也由 Ate Sleep 赞助。Ate Sleep 制造智能床垫套，具有制冷、加热和睡眠监测功能。我在这个播客中已经谈到过，我们每晚需要获得足够优质睡眠的重要性。确保良好睡眠的最佳办法之一是确保你的睡眠环境温度合适。这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，你的体温实际上需要降低大约1到3度。而为了醒来时感到精神焕发，你的体温则需要升高大约1到3度。Ate Sleep 让你可以通过在夜晚的开始、中段和结束时设置床垫套的温度，轻松控制睡眠环境的温度。
我使用 Ate Sleep 的床垫套已经将近4年了，它彻底改变并提升了我的睡眠质量。Ate Sleep 最近推出了最新一代的床垫套，称为 Pod 4 Ultra。Pod 4 Ultra 增强了制冷和加热功能。我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢在夜晚开始时将床调得非常凉，中段时更冷，醒来时则让它温暖。这能让我获得更多的慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。它还具备鼾声检测功能，会自动将你的头部抬高几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。
如果你想试试 Ate Sleep 的床垫套，可以访问 8sleep.com 斜杠 Huberman，立刻享受他们的黑色星期五优惠。通过这个黑色星期五折扣，你最多可以节省 $600，购买他们的 Pod 4 Ultra。这是 Ate Sleep 一年中最大的促销活动。Ate Sleep 目前向美国、加拿大、英国、部分欧盟国家以及澳大利亚发货。再次提醒，网站是 8sleep.com 斜杠 Huberman。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Alan Schor. Dr. Alan Schor, welcome. Nice to be here. To kick things off, I have a simple question, which is what percentage of our thinking and our behavior do you think is? Do you think is governed by our conscious mind versus our unconscious mind? You understand that I was trained in psychoanalysis, and I'm a psychodynamic psychotherapist in addition to a scientist and a neuroscientist. So the unconscious has been something that I have been aware of and have been writing about, and it's a central part of what I'm writing about to this day. Essentially, as we're going to see, I'm suggesting that the right brain is the unconscious mind.
现在开始我与艾伦·肖尔博士的讨论。艾伦·肖尔博士，欢迎您。很高兴来到这里。为了开始，我有一个简单的问题，你认为我们有多少百分比的思维和行为是由我们的有意识心灵支配的，而多少是由无意识心灵支配的？您知道我接受过精神分析训练，除了是科学家和神经科学家外，我还是一名心理动力学心理治疗师。因此，我一直以来都关注无意识，并对此进行写作，它是我至今写作的重要部分。基本上，正如我们将看到的，我建议右脑就是无意识心灵。
So when you ask how much of things really are conscious and unconscious, I'm also looking at that neurobiologically in terms of how much of activity is going on in the right brain. The right brain is always processing information, always, especially emotional information at levels beneath conscious awareness, especially when you're in an emotional interaction. So how much really are things that are conscious? I would say that when it comes to the basic motivations of why we do what we do, 95% of that is unconscious, and there has been data to show that that is the case, at most, although we think that our conscious mind literally is making all of these decisions underneath at all points in time, the unconscious is operating.
所以，当你问到事物中有多少是真正意识到的，多少是潜意识的时候，我也在从神经生物学的角度来看，考虑右脑中有多少活动在进行。右脑一直都在处理信息，尤其是处理情绪信息，这些信息通常是在意识以下的层次上进行处理的，特别是在你正在进行情感交流时。那么，有多少事情是真正被意识到的呢？我想说，就我们行为的基本动机而言，大约95%是无意识的。有数据显示，尽管我们认为我们的意识在任何时候都在做出所有这些决定，但实际上在背后，潜意识一直在运作。
It used to be thought that the unconscious only comes forth in dreams at night, where we now know that this right brain is reading unconscious communications between us. Communications is a safe to be with you. Do you understand what I'm saying? Really the critical ones always operating and much more important than we had thought itself. Let's start thinking about and talking about this right brain versus left brain thing. And what I'd like to know is when we come into this world, how much lateralization, as we call it, how much right versus left brain specialization is there at the time when we exit the womb, when we take our first breath. The answer to that is pretty clear at this point in time.
过去，人们认为无意识只有在夜晚的梦中才会显现。现在我们知道，右脑在解读我们之间的无意识交流。这种交流就像是一种安全感，意味着“我与你同在”。你明白我在说什么吗？真正重要的是那些一直在发挥作用且比我们曾经认为更重要的部分。让我们开始思考和讨论这个右脑与左脑的问题吧。我想知道的是，当我们来到这个世界上时，那种我们称之为“侧化”的程度如何，也就是右脑和左脑的专门化程度，在我们离开母体、第一次呼吸的时候有多少。目前，答案已经相当明确。
And incidentally, some of these questions about the unconscious are provided by neurobiology. But essentially, here's what we know. There was discoveries that would be made in the 80s and the 90s about the human brain growth spurt. The human brain growth spurt occurs from the last trimester of pregnancy through the second until the third year of life. All of that time is a period of right hemisphere dominance. And actually, there have been six major studies in neuroscience laboratories around the world that have shown that the right hemisphere is dominant during that period of time. In fact, there's recent study in Mexico where they looked at two to three months, six to eight months, nine to 12 months. At each point in time, they noticed that the right hemisphere was accelerating its growth. The left was not.
顺便提一下，其中一些关于无意识的问题是由神经生物学提供的。但基本上，这是我们所知道的。在20世纪80年代和90年代，人类大脑快速发育的现象被发现。人类大脑的快速发育从怀孕的最后三个月持续到婴儿的第二年和第三年。在这段时间里，右脑半球占主导地位。事实上，世界各地的神经科学实验室已经进行了六项主要研究，显示在这段时间内右脑是占优势的。最近在墨西哥进行的一项研究观察了两到三个月、六到八个月和九到十二个月的时间点。研究发现，在每个时间点，右脑半球的生长速度都在加快，而左脑没有。
So the right is dominant very early. In fact, there's evidence to show that even in utero, there is a right lateralization. Now, remember, the lateralization is part of all systems. And what is lateralized is not only the cortical areas, but the sub-cortical areas, et cetera. So if you take, let's say, the amygdala, there's a difference between the right amygdala and the left amygdala. And again, the right hemisphere. So the answer to that is very clearly now. The left hemisphere does not come into a growth spurt until the end of the second year and into the third year up until that point, which means everything about attachment is about right brain dynamics. Does that mean that everything about attachment is occurring in the first, you know, 24 months? Yes, absolutely. And it's occurring during that brain growth spurt while the right hemisphere.
因此，右脑在很早的时候就占据主导地位。事实上，有证据表明甚至在子宫内就存在右侧化。请记住，侧化是所有系统的一部分，侧化不仅涉及皮层区域，还包括皮层下区域等。如果你看一下比如杏仁核，右侧杏仁核和左侧杏仁核之间是有区别的。再强调一下，右脑半球的重要性。因此，现在非常清晰的答案是：左脑半球在第二年末到第三年之间才会进入快速增长期，这意味着关于依恋的一切都与右脑动态有关。这是否意味着依恋的所有活动都发生在最初的24个月内？是的，确实如此。这一切都发生在右脑半球的快速增长期间。
So essentially what you have now is that in the baby's brain, that baby's brain is now in a right brain growth spurt. And the mother now is shaping that baby's right brain through the attachment mechanism to her regulation of that brain. So she's helped shaping that brain for better or for worse. And incidentally, that means also not only secure attachments, but also the matter, because it's for better or worse. It's also the early evolution of insecure attachments. And we'll talk about what those insecure attachments, all of those really are being shaped by the right. What's more, there's evidence to show that it goes right hemisphere, then it goes left hemisphere, and then it goes back into left and back and right along the right. So although you have a tremendous growth spurt more than any other time in the first two and a half, three years of life, think now about adolescence where you have another growth spurt. Is adolescence marked by a right brain growth spurt? It's marked by the initially right and then it goes left.
基本上，目前婴儿的大脑正处于右脑快速发育阶段。母亲通过依附机制影响婴儿的大脑调节，从而塑造婴儿的右脑。这个过程可能是有利也可能是不利的。这不仅涉及到安全的依附关系，也可能导致不安全的依附关系的形成。我们将会讨论这些不安全依附关系都是如何受到右脑的影响。此外，还有证据表明，大脑的发展先是右脑，然后是左脑，再回到左脑，之后又回到右脑。在生命的前两年半到三年中，大脑会有一个非常迅速的发育期。然后，在青春期时，会出现另一个快速发育期。青春期是否也以右脑的快速发育为标志？答案是这个阶段会先从右脑开始发育，然后转向左脑。
So essentially with puberty and with the onset of testosterone and energy, energy is in estrogens, it shifts now into another growth spurt at that point in time, which means just for the record. Now the attachment relationship, which is essentially going to be about how we regulate our emotion, because I'll be talking about attachment is about the communication of emotions, right brain to right brain in the first two years of life.
青春期的到来以及激素水平的变化，比如睾酮和雌激素的增加，会促使身体进入另一个快速生长期。这时候，依恋关系也会发生变化。依恋关系本质上是关于我们如何调节情绪。在生命的最初两年里，情绪的交流主要是通过右脑与右脑的沟通。因此，青春期的变化不仅仅是身体上的，也是情绪和心理上的。
And about the regulation of emotions in that same period of time, etc. But ultimately that leads to the strategies that we have for affect regulation for an attachment is essentially affect regulation, affect communication and affect regulation. So now what you're looking at, if you have a mother and an infant, they are communicating with each other, right brain to right brain, and how are they doing it? By face, voice and gesture.
在那个时期，情绪的调节同样重要等。但最终，这涉及到我们处理感情和建立依恋关系的策略，基本上包括情绪调节、情绪交流和情绪调节。那么现在如果你看到一个母亲和婴儿，他们正在通过右脑对右脑进行交流，他们是如何做到的呢？通过面部表情、声音和手势。
The mother is now reading the expressions of the baby's face, the visual, the auditory, the prosody of the voice, and then the tactile. So she's picking up these kinds of communications that are coming out of that baby, tactile, gestural, visual, and she's now picking up those communications now. She's resonating with those communications, and then she is going to regulate those communications. And that's essentially what it's about in the end.
这位母亲现在正在解读宝宝脸上的表情、视觉信号、听觉信息、声音的语调以及触觉感受。她通过宝宝的触觉、手势和视觉信号来接收这些信息，并与这些交流产生共鸣。接着，她会对这些信息进行调节。这基本上就是整个过程的核心所在。
What we have is strategies of affect regulation. How we regulate affect for the rest of our lives depends upon the attachment relationship of the first two years, which is a right brain to right brain connection. Now there have been hundreds, thousands of studies on attachment, as you well aware at this point in time. But the key to it, literally, I began this in 1994 with my first book, Affect Regulation and the Origin and the Self, the neurobiology of emotional development.
我们所拥有的是情感调节的策略。我们如何调节一生中的情感，取决于生命头两年的依附关系，这是一种右脑对右脑的连接。截至目前，关于依附关系，已经有成百上千的研究。关键在于，实际上，我在1994年通过我的第一本书《情感调节与自我的起源：情感发展的神经生物学》开始了对此的研究。
Remember, Bobi was studying attachment in the 60s, but the problem of emotion really was not picked up and early on when they were looking at attachment, they were looking at behaviors, and they were looking at cognition.
请记住，Bobi在60年代研究依附关系，但当时情感问题并没有被太多关注。早期的依附关系研究主要集中在行为和认知上。
So if you know the attachment literature, remember the strange situation? Yeah, just to remind listeners, I've talked about this on previous podcast. I'll provide a link to that segment, but a strange situation can briefly be described as parent and usually mother and child come into the clinic. They deliberately leave the baby with a caretaker. This is sort of a pseudo day care type situation.
如果你了解关于依恋理论的文献，应该听说过“陌生情境”吧？对了，提醒一下听众，我之前的播客里讲过这个。我会提供那个部分的链接。不过“陌生情境”可以简单描述为父母（通常是母亲）和孩子一起进入诊所，然后故意把婴儿留给看护人员。这有点类似于一种模拟的日托情况。
Mother leaves, and then there's a lot of attention paid to how the infant or young child toddler, whatever age they were looking at, reacts. Are they nervous? Are they able to engage in play? And then they look at the return of the mother and how they react to that, and there was this classification of behaviors along the lines of secure attached, insecure attached.
母亲离开后，研究人员会非常关注婴儿或小孩（无论他们处于哪个年龄阶段）的反应。他们会观察孩子是否感到紧张，是否能够投入玩耍。然后，研究人员会观察母亲回来时孩子的反应，并根据这些行为对孩子进行分类，分为安全型依恋和不安全型依恋等。
There was a categorization of kind of an amalgam of different things, these so-called D babies that were kind of a bunch of other things. And this is where we hear a lot nowadays about insecure, insecure, and anxious, and avoidant adult relationship styles. There's been a lot written about that and talked about that.
有一种分类方法是对各种事物的融合体进行分类，这些被称为D类型的婴儿，实际上包含了其他许多东西。现在我们经常听到关于成年人的关系模式，比如不安全型、焦虑型和回避型等。关于这些已经有很多讨论和研究。
We don't have time to go into all that in detail, but this is what Dr. Shores is referring to. I'm really intrigued by this idea that there's a right brain, left brain dominance that takes place throughout the lifespan. Has it been carefully mapped into adulthood such that we can say as a function of chronological age?
我们没有时间详细讨论所有内容，但这就是Shores博士所指的。我对这个观点很感兴趣，即在人生的整个过程中存在右脑和左脑的主导性。这种情况是否已被细致地研究到成年阶段，以至于可以根据年龄来描述呢？
When somebody hits their early 30s, that their more right brain or left brain dominant? Or is it more developmental milestones as opposed to chronological age? I think it's developmental milestones there. I'm thinking that, remember Eric Erickson talking about different stages of life and how you have a hierarchy here, literally, because the attachment is a hierarchy.
当一个人进入30岁出头时，是更偏右脑还是左脑占主导？还是说这更多与发育阶段有关，而不是生理年龄？我认为这是与发育阶段有关。我在想，记得埃里克·埃里克森谈论过人生的不同阶段，以及你在这里是有层次的，因为依附关系本身就是一个层次。
It starts subcortical and then it goes to cortical. So what he said was that there are changes along the line and that it fits with that. So the attachment relationship is there at later points in time, and really what it does, it guides us through our relationships with other people. It certainly guides us through strategies of what to do with stress.
这开始于皮层下，然后到达皮层。他说的是，沿途会有变化，这与这种模式相符。连接关系会在后期出现，它实际上引导我们与他人建立关系。它也确实引导我们应对压力的策略。
And that way that we do with that stress is now going to depend upon how the mother is regulating that baby stress during a critical period. The term critical period is an important one here too, because again, at the first two years of life, it's the right brain is in that critical period there.
用中文表达这个意思：我们处理压力的方式将取决于母亲在关键时期如何帮助婴儿调节压力。「关键时期」这个词在这里也很重要，因为生命的最初两年是大脑右半球处于关键发展的时期。
But that leads to strategies of affect regulation of how we deal with stress, but also how we deal with novel situations. And again, all of it has to do with emotion. Now, I jumped there because I talked about there was attachment models move from behavior to cognition to emotion.
这导致了一些情感调节策略，帮助我们应对压力，同时也帮助我们处理新情况。所有这些都与情感有关。我提到这一点是因为依恋模型从行为转向了认知，再转向了情感。
And essentially, the first book that I wrote was on the neurobiology of emotional development. And in 1994, when I came out with that book, that was about the same time that Antonio de Masio came out with his book. And really, it was not until the mid 90s, partly because of the neuroimaging, which was coming during, you remember the decade of the brain, that emotion really now became a matter that science was looking at for the first time. The point that I'm making here is that attachment is not psychological, it's psychobiological. And there was always this rift between the psychological and the biological. But when you're talking about emotions, you're not only talking about psychological events, you're talking about physiological events that are associated with those events. For example, the physiology of the stress response, the physiology of the sympathetic nervous system, which is energy expending, and the parasympathetic nervous system, which is energy conserving. So the mother is a regulator of that. And the way that she is a regulator of that baby is that she's tracking that baby's arousal levels. She's tracking that baby's emotions as they change in time, moment to moment. And then she's synchronizing with that, and that allows her now to be able to regulate it. So we're going from recognizing that baby's emotions, synchronizing with those emotions, and then being an affect regulator. So the mother who was securely attached now is a good affect regulator of that baby. She not only is an affect regulator of the negative states of the baby, because negative states and negative affects are adaptive by definition. Baby cries mother nurses baby. And there's a signal she's sending there literally, and the mother then intuitively knows intuitively knows she's not using her left brain to figure out what to do with that baby. She's doing it intuitively and intuition is a right brain function. And she's regulating that baby implicitly. Now, let's go back over implicit to explicit. You're seeing a lot now about the shift from explicit to implicit. Something that is implicit goes on at levels beneath awareness. So when she is intuitively knowing what to do, that right now this baby is down regulating too much and she wants to bring that baby up, she should now use her tone of voice literally to raise that baby up into a more excited state. Or if the baby is dysregulated, sympathetic hyper arousal, she knows how to down regulate that and she'll down regulate that by her facial expression, by the tone of a voice, now tone of a voice is now trying to soften and to quiet down. So essentially what attachment is is the regulator of arousal of emotional arousal and that emotional arousal also includes the autonomic nervous system. So what we have here is the regulation attachment of the limbic system, the emotion processing limbic system, positive and negative and the autonomic nervous system. So they are limbic autonomic circuits and those circuits are in the right brain.
基本上，我写的第一本书是关于情感发展的神经生物学。1994年我出版这本书时，正值安东尼奥·达马西奥（Antonio Damasio）出版他的书的同一时期。实际上直到90年代中期，部分原因是因为神经成像技术的发展，也就是所谓的“大脑十年”，科学才开始关注情感这个话题。我要表达的重点是，依恋不仅仅是一个心理学问题，而是心理生物学问题。心理与生物之间曾经一直存在着分歧。但是谈到情感时，不仅涉及心理事件，还涉及与这些事件相关的生理事件。例如，压力反应的生理机制、交感神经系统（耗能）和副交感神经系统（节能）的生理机制。
母亲是这些反应的调节者。她是如何调节婴儿的？她通过关注婴儿的唤醒水平和情感变化来进行同步，这让她能够调节婴儿的情绪。我们经历了识别婴儿的情感、与这些情感同步、然后成为情感调节者的过程。一个与婴儿建立了安全依恋的母亲就是婴儿的良好情感调节者。她不仅调节婴儿的负面状态，因为负面的情绪和状态从定义上讲是适应性的：婴儿哭泣，母亲给予哺乳。这其实是一种信号，而母亲凭直觉知道该怎么做，她并不是用左脑去思考如何应对，她是凭直觉行动，而直觉是右脑的功能，她是在隐式地调节婴儿。
让我们回过头来看从显性到隐性的转换。隐性指的是意识之下进行的事情。所以当母亲直觉地知道该怎么做时，她意识到当婴儿反应过低时需要提升婴儿的情绪，她可能会用语调来让婴儿变得更兴奋；或者当婴儿过度活跃时，她知道如何降低这种反应，通过面部表情和柔和的语调来使婴儿平静下来。
简而言之，依恋关系调节的是情绪唤醒的水平，而这种情绪唤醒也包括自主神经系统。我们在这里讨论的是边缘系统（处理情感的边缘系统）和自主神经系统的调节。这些都是边缘自主回路，而这些回路是在右脑中进行的。
Now on this matter, as it turns out, the right brain has a control system of attachment. Now, since the right brain is there first before the left because there's no speech at two years, she's regulating this baby at two months, six months, twelve months, all of it is occurring nonverbal. She's doing this implicitly, not explicitly. The left hemisphere processes explicit stimuli, conscious stimuli, rational stimuli. That's not there. Everything is being done implicitly, beneath levels of awareness and again, that allows it to be the regulation. So attachment theory, my attachment theory regulation theory is essentially attachment is interactive regulation. Stay with me now. Ultimately, what we have are two forms of regulation.
在这个问题上，事实证明，右脑具有控制依恋的系统。由于两岁时还没有语言能力，右脑先于左脑出现，她在调节两个月、六个月、十二个月大的婴儿时，都是通过非语言的方式进行的。这种调节是隐性的，而不是显性的。左脑处理的是显性的、意识到的、理性的刺激，这些并不存在。一切都是在意识水平之下隐性进行的，这种方式使得调节成为可能。所以，依恋理论，或者我称之为依恋调节理论，本质上来说，依恋就是互动调节。继续跟上我的思路。最终，我们拥有两种形式的调节。
What we're doing is we're regulating the self, right? I mean, it's the subjective self, which is in the right hemisphere, the leftist objective self. The left is verbal, conscious. She's regulating the right hemisphere and she's doing that again by tracking the baby's emotional states, as I said it. But again, what the child learns now from that is that her right brain is becoming more and more complex from the first year to the second year. And it's going to turn out some of these functions that are more complex are being also stimulated by the mother.
我们正在做的是调节自我，对吧？我指的是主观自我，这属于右脑，而左脑则是客观自我。左脑主要负责语言和意识。她通过观察宝宝的情感状态来调节右脑，就像我之前说的那样。而孩子从中学到的是，她的右脑从第一年到第二年会变得越来越复杂。事实证明，一些更复杂的功能也在受到母亲的刺激和促进。
And ultimately, by the end of the second year, that baby can regulate its emotional states by itself in its right brain. But we have two forms of regulation. You can regulate your states by auto regulation by yourself. In other words, you're not with other human beings at this point in time. You have an efficient right brain which can regulate. And incidentally, what we're talking about here is the regulation of the amygdala by the right orbital frontal cortex. The right orbital frontal cortex is the highest level of the right hemisphere. It's also has the most sophisticated and the latest evolving parts of the brain are in the right frontal cortex.
到第二年末，婴儿能够通过自己的右脑来自我调节情绪状态。我们有两种调节方式。你可以通过自我调节来管理你的状态，也就是说，此时你不需要借助其他人与你互动，你的右脑已经足够强大，能够自行调节。顺便提一下，我们这里谈到的调节机制是右眶额皮质对杏仁核的调节。右眶额皮质是右脑半球中最高级的部分，也是大脑中进化得最复杂和最新的区域。
Not the left. The right orbital frontal. Not the left or so lateral cortex is the key to this. So what we learn from attachment here again is how to both in a cigarette attachment, how to auto regulate your emotions when you're apart from people. You go to a quiet place at this point in time, you're regulating yourself down, so to speak, and you're getting a nice regulation of the amygdala by the right orbital frontal cortex or interactive regulation, which is now you go to another human being.
这段话的大意是：不是左侧，而是右侧眼窝额叶皮质，不是左或其他部位的外侧皮层，这才是关键。通过依恋关系，我们可以学到如何在与他人分离时进行情绪的自我调节。当你独处时，你将自己置于一个安静的地方，这时你是在自我调节情绪，右侧眼窝额叶皮质通过互动调节大脑的杏仁核，你也可以选择与另一个人互动来进行调节。
We go to another human being under times of stress in an optimal situation. We also go to another human being to share joy states. Remember I said that the mother is up regulating joy states and down regulating negative states. So in a secure attachment, you have somebody now who can do both. In certain forms of insecure attachment, that's not going to happen. The avoidant attachment is always auto regulating his states.
在理想情况下，我们在压力时期会去找另一个人倾诉。在欢愉时刻，我们也会与他人分享。我之前提到过，母亲会调节我们快乐的状态，并缓解我们的负面情绪。所以，在安全的依恋关系中，我们有一个既能带来快乐又能化解负面情绪的人。在某些不安全的依恋关系中，这种情况就不会发生。例如，回避型依恋的人总是自己调节情绪状态。
So just so I'm clear, in avoidant attachment, the baby, which is now, let's say two and a half years old, three years old. That's already a toddler. That's a toddler, excuse me. The toddler is auto regulating more often than seeking another to help do coordinated regulation. What I'm saying is a secure attachment, and it's sort of the only backup step on it. The key to attachment is psychobiological attunement, you know the phrase, notice psychobiological attunement, that the mother is regulating not only the psychological aspect, but literally as regulating the physiological aspect of that, which means that she's relating the autonomic nervous system.
为了更清楚地表达，在回避型依恋中，婴儿，也就是说现在是两岁半或三岁的小孩。那已经是个幼儿了，抱歉，这应该称为幼儿。幼儿更倾向于自我调节，而不是寻求他人的帮助进行协调的调节。我的意思是，安全型依恋—这是唯一的一种备用步骤。依恋关系的关键是心理生物学上的协调。你知道这个短语，注意心理生物学上的协调，这意味着母亲不仅在调节心理方面，而且实际上在调节生理方面。这意味着她在调节自主神经系统。
Think about gorgeous social engagement system. What we have here is the capacity by insecure attachment who have, and then the second part of the attachment is repair. Now let me go back. Psychobiological attunement. Sometimes she misattunes. Sometimes she misreads the baby states for one reason or another. What happens in a good enough caregiving is that the mother who was misattuned now reattounds that baby. Now re-synchronizes with that baby. Now reconnects the right brain to right brain with that baby. And that repair is a key here.
想象一下一个美好的社交互动系统。我们这里讨论的是那些缺乏安全依恋的人所具备的能力，接下来的一个重要部分就是修复这种依恋。让我回到“心理生物协调”这个概念。有时候，母亲可能无法正确理解宝宝的状态，可能出于各种原因出现误判。在一个“足够好的”看护环境中，最初与宝宝不协调的母亲会再次调整自己，与宝宝重新同步，重新建立与宝宝的右脑连接。这个修复过程在这里非常关键。
You have misattunement and repair. So the key to a secure attachment is not only psychobiological attunement, but it's also the repair of the misattunement. And that allows the baby now to expand that situation and being able to use that now to order a case. That's a secure. But if she misattunes, for example, and doesn't repair, let's say, or she's not that good at psychobiologically attuning, let's say as an avoidant mother, because an avoidant personalities are uncomfortable with real closeness.
你存在失调和修复的问题。因此，建立安全的依恋关系的关键不仅在于心理生物上的协调，还在于修复失调。这让婴儿能够在这种情况下发展，并利用这种经验来建立有序的关系，这就是安全的依恋。然而，如果她（母亲）出现失调并且没有进行修复，或者她在心理生物协调方面不够擅长，比如作为回避型的母亲，因为回避型人格对于真正的亲密关系感到不自在。
Another term for an avoidant personality is a dis-pissant personality. And what they are dismissing is the need for interactive regulations. So they're always auto-regulating it. Or you have another time in which you have another form of attachment and insecure angst as attachment. Where that person is always interactively regulating, always going to others to help them regulate, but can't auto-regulate. I think this is a really important thing to hover on for a moment, just given some context about hundreds of thousands of questions that I get about avoidant versus secure versus anxious attach. And you stated it all incredibly clearly, but I want to make sure that we double click on this as they say. The idea that if a child and mother did not coordinate their autonomic regulation- Use the word synchronize. Synchronize. Do not synchronize their autonomic regulation in the proper way that there would be a non-secure attachment. I'm using that language for a specific reason. Makes total sense. But this idea that if the child, which soon the baby, which is a toddler at three or so, is avoidant, then they're going to have to learn to auto-regulate. And they're going to seek others to help them regulate less than a secure attached.
另一种称呼回避型人格的词是 "漠视型人格"。这样的个体忽视互动性调节的需求，总是通过自我调节来应对。或者说，你还会看到另一种依恋形式，即不安全的焦虑型依恋，他们总是通过互动来调节情绪，总是依赖他人的帮助，但无法自我调节。我认为这个话题很重要，因为我收到过很多关于回避型、稳固型和焦虑型依恋的提问。你已经阐述得非常清楚，但我希望我们能再深入探讨一下。我们知道，如果孩子和母亲不能在身体自动反应的节律上进行协调，那么就会形成不安全的依恋关系。这里使用了“同步”这个词，就是为了明确说明这一点。当婴儿长到三岁左右成为幼儿时，如果他们是回避型的，他们需要学会自我调节，并且相较稳固型依恋者会较少寻求他人的帮助来调节情绪。
And the anxious attached baby toddler adolescent adult will do just the opposite. They're going to have a hard time self-soothing, but they are going to feel, let's say these might be the kind of people that don't well tolerate a text message not getting responded to at a very short latency. For instance, and we all, and we all, depending on context, we have this, right? But I find this to be incredibly important, which is why I want to go back through it. Because I think nowadays we hear so much about anxious and securely attached, avoidant, etc., in the context of adult romantic relationships. But I hope that people are realizing the truly incredible importance of your work, which is that the same circuitry and mechanisms that are used to establish infant mother attachment are repurposed later in life for adult relationships. I think that when we hear that, it makes sense. But I don't think that most people know that. They assume somehow that there's circuitry in our brain and body for adult romantic attachment that is distinct from our attachment circuitry that we had with our parent. And I think your work speaks very loudly and that they are in fact the exact same circuitry. All of this is happening in the right brain. All of it. And incidentally, attachment relationship is retained as an autobiographical memory in the first two years of life, even before. There's a left hemisphere and that under later stress situation, that will be the key there. And certainly the attachment, whether it's secure, insecure is also the key to positive and negative transference. That's where it's communicated. Let me go back and say a little bit more about one other form of attachment and that you mentioned the type D attachment. The D babies. These are disorganized babies. So you have secure. You have two types of organized in secures. Okay, the avoidant and the anxious. And then you have a disorganized disoriented one. Now, ultimately, that person under stress is not able to order regulate or to interact to regulate. So what they will do at that point now, now I'm now thinking about, let's say PTSD, various borderline personality disorder, that person now literally can't go to the other for order regulation or interact regulation. That person now will use a defense literally to shut down the attachment system.
焦虑型依恋的婴儿、幼儿、青少年和成年人会表现出相反的行为。他们很难自我安抚，可能会对短时间内没有得到回复的短信感到不安。实际上，我们在不同的情境中都会有类似的表现。但我发现这一点非常重要，所以我希望能再次回顾一下。因为我认为，现在我们在成人浪漫关系的背景下，听到很多关于焦虑、安全依恋、回避型依恋等的讨论。但我希望大家能意识到您的研究真正令人难以置信的重要性，那就是用于建立婴儿与母亲依恋的脑回路和机制会在以后的生活中用于成人关系中。我认为听到这一点时，大家会觉得这是有道理的。但我不认为大多数人知道这一点。很多人以为我们的大脑和身体中有一套与成人浪漫依恋相关的回路，这和我们与父母的依恋回路是不同的。而您的研究明确表明，它们实际上是完全相同的回路。这一切都发生在右脑。而且，意外的是，依恋关系作为自传体记忆保留在生命的最初两年，甚至是在左脑出现之前。在以后的压力情况下，这将是关键所在。而依恋——无论是安全的还是不安全的——也是积极和消极移情的关键。就在交流中体现出来。让我回头再说一下您提到的另一种依恋形式，就是D型依恋。D型婴儿是混乱型的。你有安全型，还有两种有组织的不安全型，即回避和焦虑型。然后是混乱无方向的。在压力下，这种人无法自我调节或通过交互调节。所以他们会在这种情况下——比如说，创伤后应激障碍，各种边缘型人格障碍——现在，这种人实际上无法通过他人来进行秩序调节或交互调节。他们会采用防御机制，实际上关闭依恋系统。
And that's exactly what the association is. The association just shuts down the attachment. So in the anxious attachment, you have a continual activation of the attachment system, which means a continual activation of the right hemisphere all of the time. And in the secure dismissive attachment, you have a deactivation of the attachment system, which would be a deactivation of the right brain. So when the end of secure attachment is an efficient one, but it's an efficient one that can switch back and forth between that. Not only that, it also at a later point in time when the left comes online, it can also communicate much better with the left hemisphere, you know, then without that.
这正是这种联系所代表的含义。通过这种联系，可以关闭情感依附。在焦虑型依附中，依附系统会持续激活，这意味着右脑一直处于持续激活的状态。而在安全型回避依附中，依附系统会被抑制，也就是右脑的活动减少。所以，当一个人建立起有效的安全型依附时，它能够在不同状态之间灵活切换。不仅如此，等到左脑变得活跃时，它还能与左脑进行更好的沟通。
Regulation theory is essentially a theory of the development of the self in an optimal situation. But it also talks about the psychopathogenesis of the self, the early origins of psychiatric disorders and personality disorders. I'm thinking about not only schizophrenia depression, but I'm now thinking about narcissistic personality disorders, borderline personality disorders. Maybe we'll come back to more on that.
调节理论本质上是一种关于自我发展在最佳环境下的理论。但它也涉及自我的病态起源、精神疾病和人格障碍的早期成因。我不仅在考虑精神分裂症和抑郁症，还在考虑自恋型人格障碍和边缘型人格障碍。或许我们稍后会更深入地讨论这些问题。
And then ultimately the repair of the self. So regulation theory is about the development of the self, the psychopathogenesis itself, and then the repair of the self. Because these attachment situations are now going to play out under all periods of stress. The right hemisphere is dominant for the stress response. The right hemisphere is dominant for the sympathetic nervous system, the energy expending and the right hemisphere is dominant for the power sympathetic nervous system. So again, all of that will play out at a later points under stress.
最终是自我的修复。因此，调节理论关注的是自我的发展、心理病因学，以及自我的修复。因为这些依恋情况会在所有的压力时期表现出来。右半球在压力反应中占主导地位。右半球主导交感神经系统，这涉及能量的消耗，右半球也主导副交感神经系统。所以，这一切将在以后的压力下表现出来。
And when those systems break down, that's when the patient will form symptomatologies and come into therapy. And in therapy, the therapist now, the key, I'm jumping here. No, this is great. Because there's a right brain to right brain interaction between the mother and the infant. There's also a right brain to right brain interaction between the therapist and the patient. And the key to both of them is regulation. Person is coming in into this regulated state. The key to that is regulation.
当这些系统失调时，患者就会出现症状，并寻求治疗。而在治疗中，治疗师，现在关键，我要跳到这里。不，不，这非常好。因为母亲和婴儿之间存在右脑与右脑的互动。治疗师和患者之间也存在右脑与右脑的互动。而这两者的关键在于调节。患者是在这样的失调状态下来的，而解决这个问题的关键就是调节。
And the key to any form of therapy, whatever the form of it is, again, is interactive regulation and it's a therapeutic relationship. The thing which is the best indicator of whether somebody will do well out of therapy and whether a clinician will do well out of therapy is how well they can deal with the therapeutic relationship and a really good therapist literally knows how to bring back those attachment things there because now the person is starting to feel safety and trusted and incidentally, attachment is about safety and trust, which is very much autonomic.
任何形式的治疗，无论是哪种形式，其关键在于互动调节和治疗关系。判断一个人在治疗中是否会有良好效果，以及治疗师是否会成功的最佳指标，是他们如何处理治疗关系。一个优秀的治疗师懂得如何重建依恋，因为这会让人感到安全和信任，而依恋本质上与安全和信任有关，这实际上是自主神经系统的一部分。
But again here, the key to therapy is being able to form a therapeutic relationship with the patient. So the key here is can the therapist form co-create a therapeutic relationship with an avoidant patient, with a secure patient, with anxious patient, with a borderline patient. As you can imagine, the toughest thing is going to be able to do with the borderline patient with a schizophrenic patient.
但这里再次强调，治疗的关键在于能否与患者建立起治疗关系。因此，关键在于治疗师能否与回避型患者、安全型患者、焦虑型患者或边缘型患者共同创造出一种治疗关系。可以想象，与边缘型患者或精神分裂症患者建立这种关系是最具挑战性的。
So what you have here is that the attachment dynamics are all hanging out. So in the very first session, what's happening, the therapist is listening to the verbalizations of the patient in order to diagnose and understand the symptomatology. But the therapist is also listening beneath the words and the patient is tracking the attachment relationship underneath it, tracking the arousal and the arousal dysregulation underneath it, tracking it in his own body, so to speak, etc.
所以在这里，你会看到依附动态都显露出来了。在第一节治疗课中，治疗师会倾听患者的言语表达，以诊断和理解其症状。但是，治疗师也在倾听言语背后的内容，患者则在关注底层的依附关系，关注激发和激发失调的情况，并在某种程度上在自己的身体中感受这些。
And again, that is a different type of listening. Again, the therapist is listening to a left brain, but more or less the therapist is listening to the right brain. And the question is, how does the therapist do that? And in order just for the record for the therapist to be able to get to the attachment dynamics, which are right, lateralized, the therapist has got to switch out of the left into the right, and there's a term for that. The term for that is surrender.
翻译成中文，这段话的意思是：这是一种不同类型的倾听。这里，治疗师在倾听的时候要更多地运用右脑而不是左脑。那么，问题是治疗师如何做到这一点？为了让治疗师能够理解对方的依附动态（这属于右脑的活动），治疗师必须从左脑转向右脑，而这个过程有一个术语，叫做“放下”。
Surrender. You cannot consciously, purposely, put yourself into the right. You've got to let go. You've got to let go. Think, let it be, so to speak. I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice a day, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
放手吧。你无法刻意、有意识地让自己走入正轨。你必须放下，必须放手。可以这么说，要顺其自然。我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商，AG1。AG1是一款综合了维生素、矿物质和益生菌的饮品，还含有适应原。自2012年以来，我每天都在喝AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。我开始喝AG1的原因，也是我现在每天喝一到两次的原因，是因为它是质量最高、成分最完整的基础营养补充品。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micro nutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
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Tell me more about a surrender, and I just want to make sure I understand this is surrender on the part of the therapist trying to, yes, listen to the narrative that the patient is sharing, but also paying attention to the underlying emotional state is the person quaking. Are they angry? Is there feelings of despair, shock, disgust? So they're carrying this in their parallel tracks, and then is the goal of the therapist, if they're an effective one, to then soothe the patient? Or is it to allow the patient to have some sort of catharsis, some release of this? At what point does the therapist intervene and try and coordinate and show the patient a different way to think about and feel about the topic matter? What I'm suggesting here is that essentially the therapist is listening left brain to left brain, but the therapist also is always listening beneath the words, etc. And he's listening to the right brain to right brain communication. And the patient now who is depressed is coming out with right brain communication. They're sadness in the voice, the face is clearly disregulated. And essentially, as the therapist is tracking that, the emotional arousal, whether it's into hypo arousal and depression, or hyper arousal into anxiety.
这段话谈的是治疗师如何在治疗过程中处理患者的情感和心理状态。简单来说，治疗师需要理解患者所述故事的表面内容，同时关注潜在的情绪状态，包括是否感到恐惧、愤怒、绝望、震惊、厌恶等。在听患者叙述的同时，治疗师需要在心里进行“平行处理”：第一，是否要安抚患者；第二，是否让患者有一种情感宣泄的机会。关键在于治疗师何时干预以帮助患者重新认识和感受所讨论的话题。
这里的核心是，治疗师不仅仅听患者说的话（左脑交流），也在关注更深层次的情感和肢体信号（右脑交流）。尤其是在患者处于抑郁状态时，通过声音、面部表情等通道表达出来的也是右脑信息。治疗师关注的是患者情绪的波动，包括低情绪唤起的抑郁或是高情绪唤起的焦虑，并根据这些来决定治疗策略。
The first thing there is to synchronize with that patient so that my physiology is syncing with their physiology. And now, through the right insular, interreceptively, I now literally am feeling in my body what the patient is feeling in their body. I now understand that patient from the inside out. And incidentally, what I'm picking up in my body about the dysregulation of that patient may be very different than the verbal report that that patient is giving at that time.
首先，要与那个病人同步，使我的生理状态与他们的生理状态相协调。通过右侧岛叶，我现在能在身体上感受到病人体内的感觉。我从内而外地理解了这个病人。同时，我在自己身体中感受到的有关病人状态失调的信息，可能与病人当时的口头报告有很大不同。
But the key here, literally, just like the mother is synchronizing with that baby's crescendos and the decrescendos of that autonomic state of those emotional state. I'm picking up those points where they are shifting into and out of an emotional state. I'm synchronizing with that. And then ultimately, when I'm in sync with that kind of thing, then at that point, purely implicitly, I'm now starting to slow the tone of my voice if I want to reduce that arousal down. Or I'm up regulating the voice. At that point in time, I am now interactively regulating.
关键在于，就像母亲与婴儿的情感状态变化同步一样，我在捕捉他们进入和离开某种情感状态的时刻，并与之同步。最终，当我与这种状态同步时，通过潜移默化的方式，我开始通过放慢语调来降低他们的兴奋度，或者提高声音来增加兴奋度。在这个过程中，我是在通过互动进行情感调节。
And we are now synchronized together. So essentially, what's going to happen is that as we synchronize as they're going to dysregulation, we're now synchronizing together as we're going down into regulation. So the therapist can literally and somatically show the patient what auto regulation is like or what coordinated regulation is like. And you'll see it on my face. Face voice gesture. You'll see it on my face. You'll see it in the tone of my voice. You'll see it in my gestures.
我们现在同步了。基本上，随着对方进入失调状态，我们也在同步进入调节状态。也就是说，治疗师可以通过身体上的表现向患者展示什么是自动调节或协调调节。你能从我的面部表情、语音语调和手势中看到这一点。
Those three sensory modalities are now going back and forth between us. So the key of the first session literally is not only to diagnose, really, it's to start to begin to synchronize with that patient and to form a therapeutic alliance with that patient. And at the end of the first session, the patient may say, I don't know why, but I'm feeling better. And I have some idea that you can understand, but it's got to be more than that, what I am feeling, literally.
那三种感官现在在我们之间来回传递。因此，第一节课的关键不仅仅是进行诊断，而是真正开始与患者同步，并与患者建立治疗联盟。在第一节课结束时，患者可能会说，我不知道为什么，但我感觉好多了。我有种感觉你能理解我的感受，但这一定不仅仅是我所感觉到的。
So often nowadays, I think we hear that adult romantic relationships can provide a healing of some of the failures of childhood attachment. And there's also a phrase thrown around a lot that we need to learn to parent ourselves. This is more of a pop psychology online social media thing that people need to learn to mother and father themselves at some level, self-soothe into who knows what that means. I'm not going to try and define it. It's not operationally defined.
如今，我们常常听说成年人的浪漫关系可以弥补童年依恋中的一些缺失。此外，还有一个常被提到的说法是，我们需要学会自己为自己做父母。这种观点更多是一种流行心理学的在线社交媒体现象，人们需要在某种程度上学会自我安慰，自我照顾，但具体是什么意思往往没有明确的定义。我不会尝试去给它下定义，因为它本身就没有一个明确的操作性定义。
So the question I have is to what extent do you think the process that you just described with a therapist can start to rewire some of the capacity to auto regulate or to do it? To auto regulate or coordinated regulate? Essentially here, what you have is over time, partly because of this, first of all, let me spell synchronous with the capital. That's what I mean by that is in the last five years, a huge amount of information has come out about this idea about interpersonal synchrony.
我的问题是，你认为你刚刚描述的与治疗师合作的过程，在多大程度上可以开始重新调整自我调节或协调调节的能力？自我调节或协调调节？基本上，这里的意思是，随着时间的推移，一方面是因为这个原因，首先让我用大写字母拼写“同步”。我指的是在过去五年里，有大量信息关于这种人际同步的概念出现。
The term synchrony comes from the Greek, synch meaning the same, crony time, same time. So that literally two people literally are synchronized in the same way are feeling something in the same moment. And we are feeling it spontaneously between ourselves. We are feeling that kind of situation. So again here, the key to the mother really even more than the order regulation. The key is interactive regulation. Number one, number two, it's occurring at an implicit level. The mother literally is doing this without any conscious awareness. She's doing this intuitively. The right hemisphere is intuitive and it's just like it's not rational and logical. The key to any disorder, whatever it is, is the regulation of a particular state.
“同步性”这个词来源于希腊语，其中“synch”意为相同，“crony”意为时间，即相同的时间。因此，当两个人同步时，他们在同一时刻体验到相同的情感。这种感觉是在彼此之间自发产生的，我们正在体验这种状况。因此，这里母亲的关键作用甚至比有序调节更重要。关键在于互动调节。首先，这种调节发生在隐性的层面上。母亲在没有意识的情况下直观地做到这一点。右脑是直观的，不是理性的和逻辑的。无论是什么类型的失调，其关键在于对特定状态的调节。
The regulation of rage, the regulation of loss, the regulation, the dysregulation of shame, a disgust. So essentially what you have is the regulation of all of these emotions. But that regulation I want to point out is all implicit. And here's where the skill of being with patients over long periods of time is the key here. Because the key to making changes in the patient is not what you say to the patient or what you do to the patient. It's how to be with the patient. You understand the difference, how to be with that patient. Especially while that person's being is in a dysregulated state.
这些情绪的调节，如愤怒、失落、羞耻感的失调、厌恶等，实际上就是对各种情绪的调节。但我要指出，这种调节都是隐性的。而这正是长期陪伴患者的技能关键所在。因为改变患者的关键不在于你对患者说了什么或做了什么，而在于你如何陪伴患者。你要理解其中的区别：如何陪伴那个患者，特别是在他们的情绪处于失调状态的时候。
Now by definition, when they're coming in on the first session, they are in a dysregulated state. So again, it's implicit, it's not explicit. If explicit regulation is an intellectual understanding of my symptoms, implicit is an unconscious understanding at a physiological level, at a psychological level of that. And incidentally, synchrony is the mechanism underneath empathy. Now we know empathy literally has to be there. But empathy is a right brain function. And there is a difference.
根据定义，当他们第一次来进行治疗时，他们处于一个失调状态。这种失调是潜在的，不是显而易见的。如果说显性的调节是对自己症状的理性理解，那么隐性的调节就是在生理和心理层面对这些症状的无意识理解。另外，同步是同情心背后的机制。我们知道，同情心是必须存在的，但同情心是由右脑功能主导的，这两者是有差别的。
I said there's a difference in the hemispheres. There's a difference between emotional empathy, where I am feeling what you are feeling. And we are sharing the same feeling. And I don't have to think about that literally. I know at that point in time we are in the same place. There's a difference between emotional empathy on the right and cognitive empathy on the left. Cognitive empathy is an understanding. That makes no changes. Because essentially what we're attempting to do is make the changes in the right. Now the changes in the right are going to be in the right axis. They're going to be the orbital frontal cortex, which is the executive regulator of the right brain. The dorsal lateral cortex is the executive regulator of the left brain. The orbital frontal cortex now starts to form new connections with the cingulate, the insular, and the amygdala. And that's where you and I are going to see the changes. But again, the changes are due to the regulation. So you'll see the person now starting to come into more regulated states. And the key is synchrony.
我说过，脑半球之间是有区别的。在情感共鸣中，我感受到你的感受，我们分享着同样的感觉。对此我无需刻意思考，因为在那个时刻，我们的情感状态是一样的。在右脑的情感共鸣和左脑的认知共鸣之间是有区别的。认知共鸣是一种理解，但这种理解本身并不会带来改变。实际上，我们所尝试的是在右脑产生变化。右脑的变化将会发生在右脑轴上，包括负责执行调节的右脑眶额皮层。而左脑的执行调节器是背外侧皮层。眶额皮层将开始与扣带回、岛叶和杏仁核形成新的连接，这就是我们会看到变化的地方。但这些变化归根到底是由于调节的原因。因此，我们会看到个人进入更加调节良好的状态，而关键在于同步性。
So what's happening here, there's a strong therapeutic alliance, safety and trust. And in that situation now, the more synchrony that is there between the two, the more interactive regulation there is between the two. And first there will be synchrony between the patient and the therapist. Then there will be synchrony and interact regulation between that person and maybe other people, maybe a wife, a partner, and ultimately in the symptomatology will change. Because remember the symptomatology is this regulation. And the whole key is to change to regulation. Fascinating. There are a couple of questions I have before we move forward about mother infant attachment as opposed to father infant attachment.
这里发生的是什么呢？是一个强有力的治疗联盟，充满了安全感和信任。在这种情况下，双方之间的同步性越多，互动调节就越多。首先，患者和治疗师之间会产生同步。然后，这种人际调节和同步性可能会扩展到患者与其他人之间，比如配偶或伴侣，最终患者的症状表现会改变。因为要记住，症状表现其实是一种失调，而关键在于将其转变为良好的调节。这很有趣。在我们继续讨论之前，我有几个关于母婴依附与父婴依附的问题。
So that's one. And I'll ask these again in a moment, but I think you'll see where I'm going here. And then I'm fascinated by the idea that these circuits get established early in life. Then are repurposed for adult relationships. They can be modified in the way that you just described. But that they cross gender and gender lines. So for instance, a female baby can form these patterns of attachment with their mother, female caretaker. But then assuming that baby grows up to be a heterosexual woman and she has attachments to men, then these things can be reactivated across gender lines.
所以这是其中一个方面。稍后我会再问这些问题，但我觉得你会明白我的思路。我对这个想法很感兴趣：这些连接在生命早期就建立起来，然后被重新用于成年后的关系。它们可以像你刚才描述的那样被改变，而且这些连接可以跨越性别界限。比如，一个女婴可以与她的母亲或女性照护者形成这些依附模式，但假设这个婴儿长大后成为一个异性恋女性，并与男性建立依附关系，这些模式就可以跨越性别界限再次被激活。
So this formation of the circuitry is not gender specific. Although it sounds like it's important that it be the mother to child in some way. You keep saying mother child as opposed to caretaker. So to just spell them out one by one, first question, are there any data about the formation of the circuits in the baby where the mother is either not available? If it's an adopted mother, if it's a child raised by extended family, I mean, there's so many different configurations, but you get the point. Here's what I'm suggesting.
所以，这种电路的形成并不特定于性别。尽管听起来好像这种联系必须以某种方式在母亲和孩子之间。但你一直在说母亲和孩子，而不是护理人。所以让我一个个地说明，首先，第一个问题是，关于在母亲不在身边的情况下婴儿电路形成的数据有什么？如果是收养的母亲，或者是由大家庭成员抚养的孩子，我的意思是，有很多不同的情况，但你明白我的意思。这里是我想说的。
First of all, there has been some conflict on this, but after 30 years on this, I believe that there is a primary attachment figure. And the primary attachment figure is the person who was the interactive regulator of that baby when that baby is under stress. Between age zero and two. Or let me say it even another way. The primary attachment figure is the person who provides the right brain for that baby when that baby's right brain is dysregulated. Could be dad, could be mom. Could be. Yes, it's true women are better at reading nonverbal cues than men are, but it could be. And incidentally, we now have some evidence that's showing that men do have right brains.
首先，这方面一直存在一些争议，但经过30年的研究，我相信存在一个主要的依恋对象。主要的依恋对象是那个在婴儿感到压力时对其进行互动调节的人。这个阶段是在婴儿0到2岁之间。换种说法，主要的依恋对象是当婴儿的右脑无法正常运作时，为其提供"右脑支持"的人。这个人可能是爸爸，也可能是妈妈。是的，女性确实比男性更擅长解读非语言信号，但这只是可能性之一。而且，现在我们有一些证据表明，男性同样具备发达的右脑。
For a second there, I wasn't sure if you were joking, but I don't know. Maybe that's reflective of an actual right brain. All right. Now, that being the case, what's happening here is that in the first year or two, the mother's right brain, she is the person who is the right brain, which in most cultures is woman, but does not have to be. It could be a stay at home dad who literally has a good right brain and maybe a couple are figuring out that literally, you know, he'd be better in that position. But it needs that right brain. But other than that, what happens here, when it goes now into the second year, until the end of the second year and the father comes online, got me?
刚才有一瞬间，我不太确定你是不是在开玩笑，不过我也不清楚。可能这反映了一种典型的右脑思维。好吧，既然如此，情况是这样的：在第一年或第二年，母亲的右脑发挥了重要作用，她被视为右脑型的人。在大多数文化中，这个人通常是女性，但不一定必须是女性。也可能是一个在家的爸爸，他的右脑能力强，而夫妻俩可能会意识到，他可能在这个角色中更胜任。但这个过程需要右脑的参与。此外，当进入第二年的时候，直到第二年结束，父亲开始参与进来，你明白了吗？
At that point in time, the father now becomes a primary attachment figure also, but he has some differences the way he's dealing with that baby. He's usually more arousing with that baby and that the play is more arousing with that baby. So more activation of the sympathetic autonomic. Yeah. so sort of more up, let's call it, up level play. Exactly. You're dealing with more up regulation and being able to tolerate more hyper around. states because in the second year, one of the things that the father will do with the infant is with toddler infant first year, toddler second year. Ruffin tumble pay, for example, rough and tumble play.
在那个时候，父亲也成为了主要的依恋对象，但是他与婴儿相处的方式会有所不同。他通常会让婴儿更兴奋，游戏也更刺激，从而激活交感神经系统。可以说，这是一种更高水平的互动。没错，你正在处理的是一种更高的刺激水平，并帮助孩子能够适应更高的兴奋状态。因为在第二年，父亲会和孩子进行一些互动活动，比如说粗暴嬉戏、打闹游戏等。
So the father is that so the father literally is now teaching the child literally how to take risks, but the father is now moving more towards autonomy and independence. The mother was there at the beginning about interactive regulation. So the father is playing that role and I've also suggested that just as the mother is shaping that baby's right brain in the first year, the father is now shaping that baby's left brain towards the end of the first year second and into the third year that he's shaping that baby's left brain.
所以，现在父亲实际上正在教孩子如何承担风险，但他也在逐渐引导孩子走向自主和独立。而在最开始，母亲主要负责互动调节的部分。父亲正在扮演这个角色。我也曾指出，就像母亲在孩子第一年时塑造孩子的右脑一样，父亲在第一年末到第二年、第三年期间正在塑造孩子的左脑。
That being the case, he may also earlier on have had good experiences with that baby early on in life. And a good example of that would be a father who was tender, tender, yet at the same time is instrumental and is teaching things about the world. So one brain is shaped by the mother figure, the brother by the father figure. What about under situations where there's really just one primary caretaker? This is increasingly common nowadays.
在这种情况下，他可能在生命早期就有过与那个婴儿的良好互动。例如，一个既温柔又在教育孩子认识世界方面发挥作用的父亲就是一个很好的例子。所以，一个人的思想可能受到母亲形象的影响，另一个人则受到父亲形象的影响。那么在只有一个主要照顾者的情况下会怎么样呢？这种情况现在越来越常见。
And in some countries, like in certain Scandinavian countries, people opt to do this and elsewhere, of course, but this isn't always a divorce situation. Sometimes people decide to have children on their own. I think what's happening in that kind of situation is the person is initially providing the right brain and then that person is now providing the left brain. So let's say a single woman with a child. Her right brain is there on the get, but then in the second year, and incidentally, there may be father figures or family members who also can step into that.
在一些国家，比如斯堪的纳维亚的某些国家，以及其他地方，人们选择这样做，这并不总是因为想离婚。有时候，人们决定自己一个人养育孩子。我认为在这种情况下，最初是由一个人提供右脑功能，然后这个人又开始提供左脑功能。比如说，一个单身女性带着孩子。她的右脑最初就发挥作用，但在第二年时，父亲形象或家庭成员也可能参与进来。
But essentially, her left brain is there also. Remember, we both have right brains and left brains. But again, that's a different kinds of skill in a left brain, which would be the more autonomous situation. What are your thoughts about some of the modern exploration of compounds that can facilitate more right brain synchrony between therapist and patient? I've done a few episodes about MDMA assisted psychotherapy. These, of course, were just recently not approved by the FDA, so these are not legal. Nonetheless, there are interesting clinical studies showing that these are in pathogens.
但实际上，她的左脑也是存在的。记住，我们每个人都有右脑和左脑。不过，左脑的技能类型不同，它更倾向于自主的情况。关于现代研究中一些能促进治疗师和患者之间更多右脑同步的化合物，你有什么看法？我做过几个关于MDMA辅助心理治疗的节目。当然，这些最近并未获得FDA的批准，所以是不合法的。尽管如此，还是有一些有趣的临床研究表明这些化合物具有潜在的治疗作用。
One could imagine that they could be useful in the proper context to improve patient therapist's right brain synchrony and accelerate their brain. And accelerate some of this process. But it seems like it would also require both the patient and the therapist taking the compound. And that seems like it would have all sorts of ethical issues. Yeah, yeah. Remember, it's the relationship in the end that is the key there. I'm thinking, I was also somewhat aware of that literature. And you used the word empathogen, which is not quite straight out and pathic, but mimicking those kinds of situations there.
可以想象，在适当的情况下，这些东西可能对提升患者和治疗师的右脑同步性有帮助，并加速他们的大脑运作和某些进程的推进。然而，这似乎需要患者和治疗师都服用这种化合物，而这可能引发各种伦理问题。是的，是的。记住，最终关键还是在于他们的关系。我在想，我也有一些相关文献的了解。你用了“共情药物”这个词，这虽然不是直接模仿同情心的意思，但确实是在模拟那种情境。
My thought is that that might be more efficacious if it were specifically involving right brain dynamics with a person who knew how to work with those right brain. What you're getting there are very early forms of the behaviors which are subcortical. Remember, the attachment is also regulating the subcortical areas, and those are the key ones. And incidentally, we are paying too much attention to the cortical area. We literally have to shift because the subcortical areas are the foundations of the human, and everything is built on top of that. I'll come back to in utero in a second if I don't get on that.
我的想法是，如果能具体涉及右脑动态，并由懂得如何与那些右脑配合的人来进行，可能会更有效。你会接触到非常早期的行为形式，这些是皮层下的。请记住，依恋关系也在调节皮层下区域，而这些区域是关键。顺便提一下，我们对大脑皮层区域的关注过多。我们确实需要转变，因为皮层下区域是人类的基础，一切都是建立在此基础上的。如果等下没谈到，我稍后会回到胎儿期的话题。
In fact, some people who have worked with me have also been using right brain type psychotherapy in that with those patients. I think that that will be really interesting possibilities of seeing changes where you have the relationship in addition to that. And also some understanding about how the right brain works because one of the problems that you have where there is still some resistance to this, the idea that the right brain is just a simpler version of the complex left hemisphere. But that's not the case. This right brain is working completely differently. So I'm thinking that in that case, that a situation.
事实上，一些曾与我共事的人也在对那些病人使用右脑类型的心理治疗。我认为这将是一个很有趣的机会，可以看到在治疗关系之外的一些变化。同时，这也有助于我们更好地理解右脑的运作方式，因为一个问题是，大家可能还存在一些抵触，认为右脑只是复杂的左脑半球的简化版。但事实并非如此。右脑的运作方式完全不同。我认为在这种情况下，会有新的可能性出现。
Before I forget this, I want to just throw one of the pieces. I said that the right brain is in a growth spurt from the last trimester. In the last five years, 10 years, there has been a real interest in in utero development. And evidence to show that you're even seeing lateralization in the fetus and so, and there's even evidence now, scientific evidence to show that the early memories in utero are stored in the right amygdala. So they're down there, so to speak. So we're not paying more and more attention to what is happening there because at birth, literally, what you have here is the deeper parts of the right brain are evolving in utero, the insular and the right amygdala, the center amygdala, and that's setting up. And you also have synchronization across the presented whereby they are regulating each other's autonomic nervous systems. Can adrenaline pass across the placenta? I should know this. I know adrenaline doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, but the brain makes its own adrenaline. But do we know if adrenaline crosses the placenta barrier? Well, most of the studies have been uncortisol. Right. And high levels of cortisol, they're going to cross it. Sure. So if you have, let's say the amygdala, which is in a critical period of growth, the right amygdala, and the cortisol levels are very high, that's really going to not be an optimal situation for that amygdala. For that amygdala to evolve because you're going to have a continual stress response there and said that's going to have an essentially what that means also that if the mother isn't a very stressed state during an utero, some of that literally now is going to impact the lower areas of the brain.
在我忘记之前，我想说一下其中的一点。我曾经提到过，右脑在妊娠最后三个月会快速发育。在过去的五到十年中，人们对子宫内的发育产生了浓厚的兴趣。有证据表明，即便是在胎儿期间，也能观察到左右脑功能分化。现在更有科学证据显示，胎儿期的早期记忆会储存在右侧杏仁核中。因此，我们开始越来越关注这一阶段的事情，因为出生时，右脑的深层部位，比如岛叶和右杏仁核，还有中央杏仁核，都已经在子宫内逐渐形成。此外，这种发育过程中，胎盘的两侧能够同步协调，从而调节彼此的自主神经系统。肾上腺素能够通过胎盘嘛？我应该知道的。我了解到肾上腺素不能通过血脑屏障，但大脑会自制肾上腺素。那么，肾上腺素能否通过胎盘呢？大多数研究集中在皮质醇上。对，高水平的皮质醇能够通过胎盘。所以，如果假设杏仁核，尤其是处于关键生长时期的右杏仁核，暴露在高皮质醇水平下，这将对它的发育非常不利。因为这样会导致持续的压力反应，而这就意味着，如果母亲在子宫期非常紧张，这些压力会影响胎儿大脑的较低区域。
So as far as adrenaline goes, I'm not sure on that. I don't see why not. Although hormones certainly cross, you know, we're looking at not only changes in neuromodulate is especially incidentally the key here that we're trying to regulate are the neuromodulators. Excuse me. Dopamine reward. Noradrenaline adrenaline. It's those, which also early in life literally form plus neuroplastic so they will form circuits. That's what we're attempting to to regulate here to down regulate very high levels of noradrenaline and up regulate, you know, dopamine, et cetera, et cetera. I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors function. I recently became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
关于肾上腺素，我不太确定。不过，我觉得应该没问题。虽然激素确实可以相互作用，我们关注的不仅是神经调节物的变化，特别是在这里我们尝试调节的关键是神经调节物，包括多巴胺奖励系统，去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素。这些物质在生命早期会形成神经可塑性，也就是说它们会形成神经回路。这正是我们试图调节的方向，目的是降低过高的去甲肾上腺素水平，同时增加多巴胺的水平等等。我想快速暂停一下，感谢我们的赞助商之一——Function。我最近成为了Function的会员，因为我在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法。虽然我一直支持血液检测，但我真的想找到一个更深入的项目来分析我的血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康、激素状态、免疫系统调节、新陈代谢功能、维生素和矿物质状态以及其他关键的健康与活力领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from talk doctors on your results. For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had two high levels of mercury in my blood. This was totally surprising to me. I had no idea prior to taking the test. Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, and the amount of blood. I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
该功能不仅可以测试与身心健康相关的100多种生物标志物，还会分析这些结果，并提供医生的见解。比如，在我的第一次测试中，我发现血液中汞含量过高，这让我大吃一惊。在测试之前，我完全不知道这种情况。该功能不仅帮助我检测到这个问题，还提供了医生如何最好地降低汞水平的建议，比如建议我减少金枪鱼的摄入量。我之前吃了很多金枪鱼，还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜，并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都有助于谷胱甘肽的生成和排毒，从而降低了我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive. I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, go to FunctionHealth.com slash Huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman lab listeners. Again, that's FunctionHealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to Function.
全面的实验室检测对健康非常重要，虽然我进行了多年的检测，但总觉得这些过程过于复杂且昂贵。我对Function公司的印象非常深刻，他们不仅在检测操作的便捷性上做得很好，而且测试的全面性和实用性也很突出。因为这个原因，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我也很高兴他们正在赞助这个播客。如果你想尝试Function，可以访问FunctionHealth.com/Huberman。Function目前有超过25万人在等候名单上，但他们为Huberman Lab的听众提供了优先体验的机会。再次注明，可以访问FunctionHealth.com/Huberman获取优先体验。
As I recall in your book, Write Brain Psychotherapy, there was a beautiful description of these upstates, and then these calming state coordination between mother and child. I actually read this book when I was living in Topanga. I don't recommend this. There are no sidewalks in Topanga. I would read the physical copy, and I recall very distinctly thinking about this image of the baby and the mother, and the baby is a little bit. Hyper-arous is upset, and so the mother would make sounds, and in honest early words, like, these kinds of things, or humming, or bouncing lullabies, these sorts of things. That's the prosody. That's the prosody. And then the related release of things like serotonin, perhaps oxytocin as well. We can talk more about those. But then also how critical it is for the mother to be able to regulate the baby's transition to upstates. Like looking at the baby as it comes out of a nap and saying, good morning and really wide eyes, lots of gesturing, lots of gesticulating that is, you know, bringing the voice level up, and the baby going, you know, really waking up in a kind of a steeper slope of arousal, and how important that was. And then that being slightly more related, and this makes perfect sense to. Nora Penefrin, adrenaline at low, healthy levels, and perhaps dopamine as well. Is that the right way to think about this? And if so, is that what's going on when we form adult friendships, adult relationships?
在我记得你那本《Write Brain Psychotherapy》中，你对这些兴奋状态，以及母婴之间的平和状态协调有过一个美丽的描述。我实际上是在住在托潘加时读这本书的。我不推荐在那里这么做，因为托潘加没有人行道。我会读实体书，本能地记得关于婴儿和母亲的画面。婴儿有些过度兴奋和不安，然后母亲会发出声音，用一些简单的早期词汇，或者哼歌、拍摇篮曲之类的方式。这就是所谓的语调韵律。这种语调韵律可能会释放出一些像血清素，或许还有催产素这样的物质。我们可以进一步讨论这些。同时，母亲能够调节婴儿从低频状态到高频状态的过渡是至关重要的。就像看着婴儿小睡醒来后，用很大的眼睛和大量的手势说早上好，提高声调，让婴儿真正醒过来，这种逐渐上升的兴奋状态有多重要。这似乎更多与去甲肾上腺素、低水平的健康肾上腺素，可能还有多巴胺相关。这是理解这些事情的正确方式吗？如果是的话，这是否也在影响我们成人的友谊和关系的形成？
Are we oscillating back and forth between the ability to hang out and relax, and soothe each other, and the ability to kind of get excited about something? Is this the basis of all relationships and relating? Yes, yes. The key here is emotional regulation again, and again, it's implicit emotional regulation. One of the tenets, central tenets of my ideas here is that, first of all, there has been too much of an emphasis on the downregulation in negative states. Remember, the original attachment theory, the secure base, the baby would come back in a stressed state she would downregulate the negative states. But really, attachment is about the downregulation of negative states and the upregulation of positive states. Still, at this point in time, the importance of positive states and the human experience are overlooked. Positive emotions, joy, enthusiasm, excitement. Positive states literally are the key, and there are hormonal aspects to that, as you just point out, for example, dopamine, etc., etc.
我们是否在两种状态之间来回摆动：一方面是能够轻松相处和放松，互相安慰；另一方面是可以对某些事情感到兴奋？这是否是所有关系的基础？是的，确实如此。这里的关键是情绪的调节，而且是隐性的情绪调节。我所提出的观点中一个重要的原则是，我们之前过于强调在负面状态下的向下调节。要记住，最初的依恋理论中，当婴儿处于压力状态时，会通过安全基地来降低负面状态。但实际上，依恋不仅仅是降低负面情绪，也涉及到提高正面情绪。然而，目前对正面情绪和人类体验的重要性仍被忽视。正面情绪，比如快乐、热情、兴奋。正面状态确实是关键，其中也涉及到荷尔蒙因素，比如多巴胺等等。
And this goes to therapy also. In therapy, it's not only just the downregulation and the sharing the downregulation, but it's also sharing the upregulation of positive states because that's a critical piece of it also. But there still is that bias to look one way. Now, in the right brain book, I'm also talking about two types of love. Quiet love and excited love. This was the famous psychoanalyst Donald Winnekott, who was a pediatrician, who was one of the great psychoanalysts of the 20th century, and he made the distinction between quiet love, which would again be the downregulation of the Lord of Drenalyn. And excited, which is into a parasympathetic state, so you're going from a hypersynthetic state into a parasympathetic state, quiet love, and then excited love, which would be also passionate love, which is the higher arousal state out of it, so to speak. And they are both important, and ultimately, they both need to be integrated.
这同样适用于心理治疗。在治疗中，不仅仅是要降低负面情绪并分享这种情绪的缓解，还要分享积极状态的提升，因为这也是一个关键的部分。不过，人们往往倾向于只关注一个方面。在《右脑》这本书中，我还讨论了两种类型的爱：平静的爱和激动的爱。这是著名的精神分析学家唐纳德·温尼科特所述，他是一位儿科医生，也是20世纪伟大的精神分析学家之一。他区分了平静的爱，这意味着降低兴奋感，进入副交感神经状态，从高度紧张状态转向平静状态。激动的爱也可以被视为激情的爱，是更高唤醒状态的表现。二者都很重要，最终，它们都需要被整合在一起。
And you may have a situation whereby one can do one, but ultimately they have to come together. Let me make this important point. In the end, we have negative emotions for adaptive reasons. It's there. Let's say shame. Shame is meant to dose down very high levels of arousal. And if one can't do that, very high levels of arousal, let's say a narcissistic personality disorder, you need to be able to. So we need to have access to both positive and negative emotion. But the real key to a secure attachment is the ability to integrate both positive and negative emotions. So we're really good, securely attaching a mother. When that baby is in a downstate, literally, she can literally ride down with that baby and synchronize. And when it's an upstate, she can really ride up with that state. In the case of narcissistic personality disorders, let's say, for example, I'm jumping here, we've got an insecure attachment. It can be an avoidant attachment or the other one depends on what kind there are two different types of narcissistic personality disorders.
你可能会遇到一种情况：一个人可以做到某件事，但最终他们需要协调一致。我想重点说明这一点。我们的负面情绪在最终都是为了适应而存在的。比如说，羞愧感。羞愧感是为了调节过高的情绪唤起程度。如果一个人做不到这一点，比如在自恋型人格障碍的情况下，我们就需要具备这样的能力。因此，我们需要同时理解正面和负面的情绪。而建立安全依恋的关键就在于能够整合这两种情绪。比如说，在与宝宝的互动中，一个有安全依恋的母亲能够很好地理解和响应宝宝的情绪变化。当宝宝心情低落时，她能够陪伴并与宝宝的状态同步。当宝宝心情高涨时，她也能够融入并与之共同体验。在自恋型人格障碍的案例中，通常表现为不安全依恋，可能是回避型依恋或者其他类型，这取决于自恋型人格障碍的具体类型。
You can have anxiously attached narcissists. No, no, but you would have two different types of narcissistic personality disorders, a vulnerable attachment and an egotistical attachment. You said a vulnerable attachment? Vulnerable attachment is, again, an anxious attachment. These people constantly need praise. Yes. Sound familiar, but also egotistical attachment. But my point out of that, essentially here, is the stresses in life are there and that the negative stresses are there. But we can learn from those negative stresses also, etc. And ultimately, what we need to do is to be able to know how to integrate. If we can't integrate, the positive and the negative will end up with splitting. You know the term. Yeah, because I believe that's a primary feature of borderline personality disorder, which I think we should also touch on.
你可以遇到具有焦虑型依恋的自恋者。不是的，但是你会遇到两种不同类型的自恋型人格障碍：一种是脆弱型依恋，另一种是自我中心型依恋。你提到脆弱型依恋吗？脆弱型依恋就是一种焦虑型依恋。这些人不断需要得到赞美。对，是不是听起来很熟悉？但也有自我中心型依恋。我的重点是，生活中的压力是存在的，负面的压力也是存在的。但是我们也可以从这些负面压力中学习，等等。最终，我们需要做的是学会如何整合。如果我们不能整合，正面和负面的因素会导致分裂。你知道这个术语。是的，因为我相信这是边缘性人格障碍的一个主要特征，我觉得我们也应该讨论一下。
Yeah. So my understanding about splitting is that it's the, I love you, I hate you phenomenon, brought on by not just an internal switch, which is sometimes seen in bipolar disorder, but rather somebody with a borderline personality disorder will see something like and be very upset, like suddenly, like the fact that a glass is empty of a drink meant that they didn't think enough to refill a glass as something, whereas a few minutes before it was perfectly fine, it was not an issue, right? There needs to be a trigger and then they split. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So essentially, you know, the splitting usually, the splitting goes out externally. That person is all bad. I am all good. So now you have that splitting, it's you can't see anything of a goodness in that person at this point in time. Does it sometimes go the other way?
是的。据我理解，"分裂"现象就是“我爱你，我恨你”的这种情感波动。它并不仅仅是像双相情感障碍那样的内在开关所引发，而是指有边缘型人格障碍的人会因为某件事情突然感到非常不安，比如一个空了的杯子可能会让他们觉得对方不够关心，不去续杯；而几分钟前这种情况还不会成为问题。他们需要有一个触发点，才会产生这样的“分裂”。是这样吗？是的。基本上，这种“分裂”通常会向外发展。他们会觉得那个人完全不好，而自己完全是对的。在这种情况下，这种“分裂”让他们完全无法看到对方的任何优点。有时候会反过来吗？
That person's all good. It could also be that all good, but also have internally splitting. You have an internal split between a good self and a bad self. And internally, there's an internal object relation that we all have as we internalize these external relationships so that there's a good self and a bad self literally, that they cannot be integrated, so to speak, and that that part of me, I hate that part of me versus I love that part of me. All in terms of borderline, usually what you see at the very beginning is that there's an over idealization of the positive values of that therapist. And then there's some, there are some then stressors and misattunements and ruptures that are repair. And now all of a sudden what was totally good now becomes totally bad. And so that could be if there was not a strong therapeutic alliance, the point in which the person will drop out. Are these people with borderline personality? I don't know if you still call it a disorder nowadays that gets a little bit into the, let's call that borderline with borderline. Do they exhibit this same sort of splitting idealization and then the idea that somebody is terrible and they want nothing to do with them in the context of work relationships friendships? Does it extend out into other domains of life or is it unique to certain types of relationships? I think it's a way of seeing the world. Remember, and the way of seeing the world essentially is very different from the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere and the right hemisphere sees the world through emotional relationships. And that, so that can become a trait that can be really hard and fast. Trade, let me put it another way. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, the baby is all good. The caregiver. Primary caregiver is always thinking very positive about that about that infant. But when that infant now all of a sudden becomes depressed. The interactive regulation stops at that point in time. The caregiver doesn't want anything to do with it.
那个人一切都好。这可能意味着一切都好，但也可能存在内部分裂。你心里有一个好的自我和一个坏的自我之间的内部分裂。我们每个人都有内在的客体关系，我们会将这些外部关系内化，其中有一个好自我和一个坏自我，从字面上说，它们无法整合，换句话说，就是我讨厌我内心的那一部分，而我爱我内心的另一部分。在边缘型人格障碍中，通常一开始你会看到对治疗师积极价值的过度理想化。随后，会有一些压力、调节失误和关系破裂需要修复，突然之间，原本完全好的东西变成了完全坏的东西。因此，如果没有强有力的治疗联盟，这可能是使人退出治疗的关键。如果这些人是患有边缘型人格（不确定现在是否仍被称为一种障碍），我们称其为边缘型，他们在工作关系、友谊中是否也表现出同样的分裂和理想化，然后又觉得某人很糟糕，想与他们断绝关系？这种情况是否会扩展到生活的其他领域，还是仅限于某些类型的关系中？我认为这是一种观察世界的方式。记住，这种观察世界的方式从本质上与大脑左半球和右半球的视角非常不同，右半球通过情感关系来看待世界。因此，这可能成为一个非常顽固的特征。换种方式来解释，对于自恋型人格障碍来说，婴儿似乎是完美的。主要照护者总是对婴儿的评价非常积极。但当婴儿突然变得沮丧时，互动调节就停止了，照护者不再愿意去接触它。
Now, so at that point in time now, everything is unconscious. If you and I are together and there is a Mr. tune in between us, what possibility, let's say in a dismissive attachment is all of a sudden I will disengage. We got too close. And at that point in time, maybe I'm acting out my early attachment dynamics, because what the baby is doing is expecting what the mother will do next. At that point in time, there's a misattooment like that. And so in the case of a dismissive personality, that person will emotionally disengage. Okay. Become very abstract at that point in time. And at that point in time, I can't feel you. I hear what you're saying. And so at all points in time, you have this situation of coming closer and moving apart, coming closer and moving apart. And this will be acted out in the therapeutic relationship also with and so that every time the person is the anxious person is stressed, they'll come and close to you now. Now, they're more demanding about what they need from you. Look at the tone of my voice.
现在，在那个时刻，一切都是无意识的。假如你我之间有一个叫“调谐”的人，那么在一种疏离型依恋的情况下，可能会突然地让我抽离。我们变得太亲近了。在那一刻，我可能在重演我早期的依恋关系，因为婴儿期待的是母亲接下来会做什么。在那一刻，出现了这样的误解。因此，对于一个疏离型人格来说，这个人会在情感上抽离。变得非常抽象。在那一刻，我无法感受到你，但能听到你在说什么。所以在每一个时刻，你都会遇到这样一种靠近和远离的情况，这种情况会在治疗关系中表现出来。每当那个焦虑的人感到压力时，他们就会靠近你，对你提出更多要求。听听我说话的语气。
While the insecure avoidance now is not going to deactivate it. And at that point in time, my voice will now get flat. You can't even hear the effect of tone of my voice. So I'm telling you that we always pick up at the level of our own physiology, how emotionally close or distant that person is at this point in time, especially at points of stress. Whether I'm coming in or I'm moving out. Let me go back to this. All of this is occurring at an implicit level, which is why you said something about re-parenting, etc. Too much is on a conscious level there. If you really want to make these changes in a personality, they have to be changes in the right brain. And that's why all therapy now is looking into emotion. All therapy, no matter what form of therapy, it's laying on top of the therapeutic relationship and emotion per se. I'm pausing because I'm just taking all this in and thinking about what are the ways that people can start to tap into this right brain health or lack of health and ways to repair their right brain circuitry, so to speak, without a therapist. Or is that just simply impossible? No, it's not impossible. We all do grow.
尽管目前的不安全回避行为不会加以抑制，但在那个时候，我的声音会变得平淡，你甚至听不出我的语气变化。我想告诉你的是，我们总是通过自身的生理层面感知他人在情感上离我们有多近或多远，尤其是在压力时刻，无论我是走近还是远离他人。让我回到这个问题。这一切都在隐性层面发生，这就是你提到重新养育等内容的原因，因为那是有太多的意识层面的东西。如果你真的想在个性上做出这些改变，它们必须是右脑的变化。这就是为什么所有的治疗现在都关注情感。所有的治疗，无论是哪种形式，最终都是建立在治疗关系和情感上的。我停下来是因为我在消化这些，并思考如何在没有治疗师的情况下，找到方法来激活或修复右脑的健康状态或缺失。不，这是可能的，我们都在成长。
And incidentally, our right brains do grow. But again, the key here I'm suggesting the whole idea about interpersonal neurobiology. It was the editor of the Nordenshire interpersonal, which is the two person situation. There has been too much of an emphasis on order regulation and not enough emphasis on interactive regulation. The real key to changing a right brain is finding people you can be close with. Finding people you can be open with. Finding people you can be vulnerable with. That literally you can show your shortcomings and opening yourself up to those people as they open up to you. It's literally to form that right brain to right brain communication system with someone else. I think I just got it. I think if I'm not mistaken, what you're describing is interactive dynamics that create or elaborate on circuitry that exists in all of us, but that for some people, might be atrophied because of the lack of proper emotional nourishment early in life. But that we can engage these circuits, these right brain circuits. But then when we're not around these people, there must be something about the right brain circuitry that provides a sort of a soothing function so that we must know at an implicit level that we can do this. We know how to attach in healthy ways to people. We have a close friend we can rely on.
顺便提一下，我们的大脑右半球确实会成长。但是，我再次强调的是人际神经生物学的整体理念。诺登郡的人际关系编辑提到，这涉及两个人的互动。过去过于强调自我调节，而没有足够重视互动调节。改变右脑的真正关键是找到可以亲近的人。找到可以敞开心扉的人。找到可以让自己脆弱的人。与这些人交流时可以展示自己的不足，并敞开心扉接纳他们的缺点。这实际上是与他人建立右脑与右脑的沟通体系。我想我明白了。如果我没弄错的话，你所描述的是一种互动动态，这种动态能够创造或丰富每个人体内原本就有的神经回路。对于某些人来说，由于早期缺乏适当的情感滋养，这些回路可能萎缩。但我们可以激活这些回路，这些右脑回路。当不在这些人身边时，右脑的某些回路会提供一种安抚功能，让我们在潜意识层面知道我们可以这样做。我们知道如何以健康的方式与人建立联系，并且有一位可以依赖的亲密朋友。
We have friends plural. We may be repaired a relationship with a sibling, this kind of thing. So it's not that these circuits need to constantly be engaged every moment with the barista, but that we somehow at an unconscious level, it must be that we come to realize that this circuitry has elaborated or has elaborated in a way that we need to be able to do that. In a way that we know, quote unquote, we can do it. You know, remember, part of the problem is being able to take in to take these things in here. But the key to emotion, incidentally, let me throw out an important, another important term in terms of therapy situation. And I said essentially therapy is about literally reworking emotion and the most the key to mental health and physical health is also a right brain, a right brain emotional situation here.
我们有很多朋友。我们可能修复了与兄弟姐妹的关系，是类似这样的事情。所以，不是说我们大脑中的这些回路需要每时每刻都与咖啡师互动，而是我们在潜意识层面上意识到这些回路已经发展或再发展成我们需要的那种能力，以确保我们可以做到这一点。我们的问题之一是能接纳这些事情。然而，关于情感，我想引入另一个在治疗情境中重要的术语。实际上，治疗是关于重新调整情感，而心理健康和身体健康的关键也与右脑的情感状态有关。
The key here is that there are heightened affective moments in a therapy session. I'm going to go therapy, then I'm going to come back to your question. We've now formed the therapeutic alliance. The stronger the therapeutic alliances between us, more empathy between us, so to speak, the more we can share. I'm now going to start to drop some of my defenses because the defenses of their block affect negative affect and begin now to take a chance now to over myself up to somebody else. But in a therapy session somewhere around the middle of that session, the person comes in out of the world in a left frame state, somewhere in the middle of the session. They start moving into affect. And now the person is starting to talk in a more effective level. And now talking about a memory or some sad situation or something that just happened in a relationship with a couple. Now, you even start hearing my voices now. The voice tone change. And these moments, which only may last, believe it or not, 50, 60 seconds are heightened affective moments. These are moments when all of a sudden we are both in the right and we are both synchronized. And the affective now is out there, so to speak. And that's the possibility now to get this change in these heightened affective moments.
关键在于，在治疗过程中会出现情感高涨的时刻。我要先进行治疗，然后再回答你的问题。我们现在已经建立了治疗联盟。我们之间的治疗联盟越强，可以说，我们之间的同理心就越多，我们可以分享的也就越多。我现在会开始放下我的一些防御，因为这些防御会阻碍负面情绪的释放，现在我愿意冒险开放自己，让别人了解我。在治疗的中间阶段，来访者从外面的世界进入一种理性框架，在疗程的中段，他们开始转向情感层面。此时，来访者开始在一个更具情感的层面上交谈，谈论某个记忆、悲伤的情况或一段关系中刚刚发生的事情。甚至连我的声音都会改变，音调会发生变化。这些时刻，可能仅持续50或60秒，但情感强度很高。在这些短暂的时刻，我们突然之间在同一个频道上，彼此同步，情感被释放出来。正是在这些情感高涨的时刻，改变才有可能发生。
So to be in an interpersonal relationship with someone and to co-create with that person, a heightened affective moment in both of us, which we are sharing at that point in time. By taking the risk to the open at that point in time also. These are the moments in life that you really go into your autobiographical memory. I remember my occasion with that person. I can bring back the whole context because remember the right brain acts with images, images. So I can bring back that image now. And I can remember the closeness that I felt at that point in time, etc. These are put into the right brain. So we are always putting into our autobiographical memory these heightened affective moments. So to have those shared affective moments with other people. These are really whereby you make it changed in the right. And these are much more important. I want to suggest then, you know, intellectually. Now, there have been certain fMRI.
与他人建立人际关系，并与他们共同创造出在彼此之间引发强烈情感的时刻，同时在那个时刻冒险敞开心扉。这些瞬间是你会深刻记入自传体记忆的时刻。我记得和那个人在一起的场合，我能够回忆起整个背景，因为右脑以图像的形式运作。所以我现在可以把那个画面带回脑中，并记得当时的亲密感等等。这些全都储存在右脑中。所以，我们总是把这些强烈的情感时刻放入我们的自传体记忆中。与他人分享这些情感时刻，这才是真正让你在心灵上发生变化的地方，而这些远比智力上的东西重要。我想建议的是，现在有一些fMRI（功能性磁共振成像）研究表明……
I'm now going to move into a little bit of a different place here. What I'm suggesting is that these right brain to right brain communications are always going on. But certain people literally can't read them as well as other people can. And they can't read the face of voice. And they can't synchronize well. Can I stop you and ask one question, which is, let's say that, let's take this conversation, for instance. I'm listening to your words very carefully. If I make an effort to listen especially carefully to what somebody is saying, the content of their words, is there a competition between left and right brain such that I'm now not getting as much right brain listening? Yeah, okay.
好的，我现在要进入一个有点不同的领域。我想说的是，这种右脑对右脑的沟通一直在进行。但是，有些人对这种信息的理解确实不如其他人。他们无法很好地读取面部表情或声音，也无法很好地进行同步。我能打断一下问一个问题吗，比如说，让我们以这个对话为例。我正非常仔细地倾听你的话。如果我特别努力地去听某人所说的话语内容，是否存在左右脑之间的竞争，从而导致我没有得到那么多的右脑输入呢？好的。
This to me feels like the surrender aspect. Whereas I can, and I do this during these interviews slash discussions where I'll sit back sometimes. And I'm still listening. But I widen my gaze. I don't look around, but I widen my gaze. And I'm trying to just feel something coming in. I'm not a therapist, obviously. No one would ever suspect that I was. But I only do it for a few seconds. And then I reengage. And I used to think that it was like a relaxation of sorts. But inevitably, I feel like it's a different way to, the conversation takes a different direction. Is that more or less what you're talking about?
对我来说，这感觉像是一种放松的状态。在这些采访或讨论中，我有时会靠坐在椅子上。我仍然在听，但我扩大了视野。我并不是环顾四周，而是扩大了视野。我试图去感受有什么东西进来。显然，我不是治疗师，没有人会怀疑我是。但我只这样做几秒钟，然后再次投入到谈话中。我过去认为这是一种放松的方式。但不可避免地，我觉得这让谈话走向不同的方向。这是否与你提到的差不多？
Yeah, that's a colossal shift. And incidentally, in Corpus Christ, you can shift from the left into the right about 100 milliseconds. So essentially, you have to be in one hemisphere or the other. So if I'm listening very carefully to exactly what you said, and I'm tracking everything you said like, we're in a courtroom situation, then my right brain is suppressed. Okay. Is that right? Good feet. Good feet. Now, what's where I go here? The right hemisphere is dominant for attention. Okay. I mean, this baby and this mother, literally, she's focusing our attention on that baby's face tone voice. But there are two different types of attention.
是的，这是一个巨大的变化。顺便说一下，在科珀斯克里斯蒂，你可以在大约100毫秒内从左移到右。所以基本上，你必须在一个半球中。比如说，如果我非常仔细地听你说的话，就像在法庭上认真听证一样，那么我右脑的活动会被抑制。对吗？很好。那么我该怎么做呢？右半球在注意力方面占主导地位。我是说，这位母亲的注意力就集中在宝宝的面容、语调和声音上。不过，注意力有两种不同的类型。
Strong neuroscience to show this. The left brain operates by narrow attention, narrowly focused attention. As the best example of narrowly focused attention is you are following my words one after the other. But there's another type of attention which is used by the right brain, which is called wide ranging attention, which comes right out of Freud, which he also called, maybe you'll remember this evenly suspended attention. I haven't heard that, but that's beautiful. It's the same thing, which is much wider than that. And that form of attention is the form of attention that the right brain has, because the attention at that point in time is not only of what's coming from the outside, but also attention to what's happening in the inside, my own inside.
有强有力的神经科学研究支持这一观点。左脑的运作基于狭窄的注意力，即集中注意力。最好的例子就是你在一个字一个字地听我讲话。但是还有另一种注意力类型，是右脑使用的，称为广泛的注意力，这个概念可以追溯到弗洛伊德，他可能称之为“均衡注意力暂停”。虽然我没听过这个说法，但它确实很美，意思是一样的，只是范围更广。这种注意力是右脑具有的，因为那时注意力不仅关注外部的事物，还关注内部正在发生的事情，我自己内心的状态。
The changes in my own physiology at that point in time also. So yes, there are these two different forms of attention. And essentially the only way someone who was just narrow all the time, let's take a personality who just lives in the left hemisphere. A hyperlinear person. Exactly. Hyperlogical, hyper rational. Cannot really see the big picture, but literally that kind of a situation. So essentially that kind of a person is always looking at the narrow aspects of it and cannot see the broader context, the broader context, because there's a context that's being set up. Right now between you and I, there's also a context that's being set up. And that context also has to a kind of a feeling of safety and trust as we literally just go off wherever our thoughts are, with some idea that literally you'll be able to follow that and you'll come back with me at the same time.
在那时，我自己的生理也发生了变化。所以是的，确实存在这两种不同形式的注意力。一个只专注于狭隘视角的人，就像一个只用左脑看世界的人。一个极度线性思维的人。没错，非常讲逻辑，非常理性。这类人很难看到大局，只能关注狭隘的方面，而无法看到更广阔的背景，因为实际上有一个背景在被设定。目前，在你我之间，也在建立这样一个背景。而这个背景带来了一种安全感和信任感，让我们可以随意表达我们的想法，相信你能理解并与我保持同步。
So the context, the emotional atmosphere between us changes when you go left into the right like that. Point here is that it used to be thought that the only way you could understand the brain was by looking more and being more introcyclically into one brain. If you understood how one brain worked and everything was intro psychic, but then there's the interpersonal part of it. And so essentially we're moving now from a one person intro psychic psychology to a two person interpersonal psychology. You see what I mean by two person. I got the mother here, got the baby there. I got the patient here, I got the therapist there. And between them literally are going back and forth at all periods of time, right brain to right brain communications underneath the conversation.
所以，这段话的意思是，当你进入一段关系时，我们之间的情感氛围会随着你的左右变化而改变。重点在于，过去人们认为理解大脑的唯一方法就是深入研究一个人的大脑和内心。如果你能理解一个大脑如何工作，所有的事情都是内在心理的。但现在我们意识到，还有人际交往的部分。所以，我们实际上正在从单一的内在心理学转向双人间的人际心理学。你可以理解为双人心理学，比如一个场景中有母亲和婴儿，或者病人与治疗师，他们之间始终在进行右脑与右脑的交流，而这类交流是在对话表面之下进行的。
So neuroimaging, hyper scanning, neuroimaging, you're familiar with hyper scanning. Another paradigm shifting thing that is occurring now in neuroimaging. For the first time we can now scan two people, NIRS, EEG, whatever you want. While they are in the middle of a basic interpersonal interaction, a number of interaction between the two of them. These studies have now been done. And what they did was that they found is that the two brains, especially when they're into emotional states, and when they are looking at each other face to face, and they're concentrating literally on how to empathically be with that person, etc.
因此，神经影像学和超扫描技术，这些你可能很熟悉。现在在神经影像学领域正发生着一种范式转变。我们首次可以同时扫描两个人的脑部活动，不论是通过近红外光谱成像（NIRS）、脑电图（EEG）还是其他方法。在他们进行基本的人际互动时进行扫描，这些互动可以是多样的。目前已经有相关的研究进行了。他们发现当两个人处于情感状态时，尤其是在他们面对面交流并专注于如何感同身受地与对方相处时，两人的大脑之间存在某种同步性。
Emotions, so to speak, they find that the right brain of one will synchronize with the right brain of the other. And the part of the right brain that synchronizes with the other is the right temporal parietal junction. A lot of evidence now on the right temporal parietal junction. I said right brain to right brain. So now the eyes are coming. And remember the eyes are, I mean, the recti connection really is the most powerful form of communication. I always remind people these are two little bits of brain outside your cranial vault.
情感上来说，人们发现一个人的右脑会与另一个人的右脑同步。而同步的部分正是右脑的颞顶结合区。现在有很多证据支持这一点。我说的是右脑与右脑的连接。那么，现在视线的交流来了。请记住，眼神交流实际上是最强大的沟通形式。我总是提醒大家，这其实是两块小小的脑组织在颅骨外面。
As weird as that might seem, they're two bits of brain, your retina is central nervous system, and you're looking at, that's about as close as you can get to looking at somebody's brain state as any other. The eyes are being controlled by the autonomic nervous system. So you have an autonomic nervous system, the autonomic nervous system synchrony here, so to speak. But essentially what's occurring at this point in time, face voice gesture.
这听起来可能有些奇怪，但你的视网膜实际上是中枢神经系统的一部分，因此，当你观察一个人的眼睛时，就相当于接近地观察他们的大脑状态。眼睛是由自主神经系统控制的。所以，你的自主神经系统和这里的自主神经系统是同步的，可以这样说。但在这个时刻，真正发生的是面部表情、声音和手势。
The face is processed in the posterior parts of the right hemisphere, the face processing. The posterior parts of the right hemisphere, the sensory areas of the right hemisphere process the voice, the melody of the voice, the tone of the voice. That's different than the semantics of the voice. So this is a this is a this is what the Italians do so well. Right. Right. And the and the and the posterior parts of the right hemisphere also will process gesture and tactile. Okay.
这段话的意思是：人脸识别是在右半球的后部进行处理的，这涉及到面部的处理。右半球的后部，也就是右半球的感觉区域，负责处理声音、声音的旋律和语调。这与声音的语义有所不同。这正是意大利人最擅长处理的事情。还有，右半球的后部还负责处理手势和触觉。
All of that comes together is integrated together in the right temporal parietal junction. So when two people literally are empathically synchronizing with each other, when we are sharing the same emotional state. The fair patient says at this point in time, my God, it's rage. I never realized it was anger. And at that point in time, the empathic therapist who's synchronizing, we are both literally now in that right temporal parietal junction. But the right temporal parietal junction is what sends the communications and receives the communications got me here.
这一切汇聚在一起，集成在右侧颞顶联合区。当两个人在情感上真正同步的时候，我们是在分享同样的情感状态。这个敏感的患者此时会说，天啊，这是愤怒。我从未意识到这就是愤怒。而此时此刻，那位与之同步的富有同情心的治疗师，我们实际上都处于那个右侧颞顶联合区。但是，正是右侧颞顶联合区发送和接收那些让我到达这里的交流信号。
So essentially, that's where our linkages and we are now literally in a right brain to right brain communication. And what they found was during a real psychotherapy situation where the patient comes in and they're there because they have interpersonal relationships problems and emotional problems. And they're face to face and their eye to eye and they're tracking each other's like that. You'll find that synchronization. So the synchronization between my right temporal parietal and your right temporal parietal is a right brain to right brain communication.
所以，本质上，这就是我们之间的关联，现在我们实际上是在进行右脑对右脑的沟通。在一个真实的心理治疗情境中，当患者因为人际关系问题和情感问题来找心理医生时，他们面对面、眼对眼地进行交流。在这种情况下，你会发现双方的同步。也就是说，我的右侧颞顶区域和你的右侧颞顶区域之间实现了同步，这是右脑对右脑的沟通。
That right brain to right brain communication is always occurring in that kind of a context. And therefore, the most important new change in psychoanalysis is that the unconscious just is more than just happening at dreams. It's happening at all points because the unconscious we now know is a relational unconscious. It communicates with another relational unconscious right brain to right brain. And this has really changed so much now and our understanding about what psychotherapy is about also.
在这种情况下，右脑对右脑的交流总是在发生。因此，精神分析中最重要的新变化是，无意识不再仅仅是在梦中发生。现在我们知道，无意识在任何时候都在发生，因为无意识是一个关系性的无意识。它通过右脑与另一个关系性的无意识交流。这极大地改变了我们对心理治疗实质的理解。
And certainly I want to point out the major change mechanism in psychotherapy now is not insight. It's not cognitive insight. It's more the ability to have an emotionally laden conversation with another human being. And to make emotional connections with another human being, which is why the therapeutic relationship really is the factor of the change. And that's very different than the old days was your unconscious is here.
当然，我想指出，心理治疗中主要的改变机制现在已经不是洞察力了，也不是认知上的洞察力。更重要的是能够与他人进行充满情感的对话，并与他人建立情感联系。这就是为什么治疗关系才是真正的改变因素。这和过去认为“潜意识是关键”的观点非常不同。
The analyst is there. I'm now going to interpret what you're doing as you are sinking down into the right and now going, but I'm going to stay up left and interpret it. That's why there was a real limitation to that. That's why psychoanalysis really changed now also to a face to face contact, not just the couch also. Fascinating and makes total sense based on the newer imaging tools, revealing synchrony, etc. Two questions that can be asked in parallel. Music and dogs.
分析师在那儿。我现在要解读你的行为：你正在下沉到右边然后继续前进，而我则会保持在左上方并进行解读。这也就是为什么有实际的限制在其中。这也是为什么精神分析如今也发生了变化，变得不仅仅是沙发上的分析，而是面对面的接触。这很有趣，并且根据新型成像工具所揭示的同步等现象，这一改变完全合乎逻辑。有两个可以同时提出的问题：音乐和狗。
Why music and dogs? Some of what you're describing reminds me of the state shift that occurs when I hear particular pieces of music for which I'm not paying attention to the lyrics or in some cases the lyrics matter. I'm listening, but they don't make any sense. Like if they were read out as a paragraph, it would make any sense. But it feels like there's some fundamental truth there. So this is, I could state specific musical preferences, but it's highly individual.
为什么是音乐和狗呢？你描述的状况让我想起当我听特定的音乐时会发生的一种状态转变。我并没有特别注意歌词，有时歌词并不重要。我在听，但它们的意思不明显，像是如果把它们当作一段文字来读，可能会显得没什么道理。但那种感觉就像是其中存在某种基本的真理。所以我可以具体说说我的音乐喜好，但这其实是很个人化的。
For some people, it's classical music for other people. It's music that contains lyrics. But there's this feeling like, yes, there's a truth there and I feel that truth. Even though the content of the words, let's say, couldn't help myself. Like a Bob Dylan song, for instance. He certainly could be considered a poet, right? And if you read the lyrics just as a paragraph, you'd be like, this is nonsense. But the way that it sung the meaning behind it, the timbre and the voice, the prosody, et cetera.
对有些人来说，经典音乐能够打动他们，对另一些人来说，歌词音乐更让他们共鸣。但都有一种感觉，就是“是的，这里有一种真理，我能感受到这种真理”。即便歌词的具体内容可能让人难以理解，比如说像鲍勃·迪伦的歌。他当然可以被视为诗人，对吧？如果你只是把歌词当作段落来阅读，你可能会觉得毫无意义。但通过演唱、声音的音质、韵律等，背后的意义就展现出来了。
And presumably the emotion that he was feeling at the time when the music was recorded communicates with us and we enter a synchronous state. And then in parallel to this, I mentioned dogs where, sure, they have a left brain and a right brain. But I think with animals generally, if they're domestic animals and we have a very close relationship to them, we can really feel a resonance with them. And presumably them with us and for anyone that's experienced it, some people might be chuckling now, but it's nothing short of profound.
翻译成中文，意思简单易懂：
可以推测，他在录制音乐时的情感能够传达给我们，与我们产生共鸣，使我们进入一种同步状态。同时，我提到狗，没错，它们有左脑和右脑。但我认为，与动物相处时，尤其是与我们关系密切的家养动物，我们真的能与它们产生共鸣。想必它们也能跟我们这样共鸣。对于那些有这类经历的人来说，可能有些人现在会会心一笑，但这种体验可以说是相当深刻的。
The extent to which we really feel like they see us and we see them and there's a bond. Clearly not the same magnitude as a parent-child bond, but nonetheless. So music and dogs, do you think it's tapping into this same right temporal parietal structure? I think that it's, first of all, the right temporal parietal junction is the posterior and the right orbital frontal cortex. So the whole right brain there, so to speak.
我们究竟感受到彼此之间的理解和联系到了什么程度？虽然这种联系显然不像亲子之间那么强烈，但依然存在。那么，音乐和狗能否激发同样的右侧颞顶结构呢？我认为，首先右侧颞顶交界区位于后部以及右侧眶额皮层。所以可以说，整个右脑都参与其中。
Okay, so we're basically going from anterior to posterior, just their structure's the whole way back. The orbital frontal is the regulation part of it. The temporal parietal junction is the communication part of it. So the whole key is the communication of emotion and the regulation of emotion. Where is the surrender switch? The surrender is the colossal switch out of the left into the right. So not so much paying attention to the content of the words, the logic behind them, the logical flaws that might exist, the analytic part, but rather how the words sound, how the words feel, literally.
好的，所以我们基本上是从前部到后部，整个过程中关注他们的结构。眶额部分是负责调节的部分，颞顶交界是负责沟通的部分。所以关键在于情绪的沟通和调节。那么，那个“放弃”的开关在哪里呢？就是从左脑切换到右脑的转换。所以，与其过多关注词语的内容、背后的逻辑、其中可能存在的逻辑缺陷及分析部分，不如去感受词语的声音和它们带来的感受。
Yes, and clearly one of the, first of all, there has been a lot of neuroscience done on music and incidentally most of that is right brain, showing right brain activation in music. The key here, even more than that, it's particular music to me. It has a particular meaning to me, subjectivity, and a lot shows that music is essentially a mechanism of affect regulation. But I want to suggest to you that pets are also a mechanism of affect regulation. Dogs everywhere smiling.
是的，首先，已经有很多关于音乐的神经科学研究，而这些研究大多涉及大脑的右半球，显示音乐会激活大脑的右侧。关键在于，音乐对我个人而言有特殊的意义，这种主观性使得音乐成为一种情感调节机制。除此之外，我还想说，宠物也可以成为情感调节的工具。比如到处可见搂着我们笑的狗。
Absolutely, you know, and maybe by the same things. I want to suggest, I think that the communication between dogs and I've had four dogs myself is that literally it's tactile. It's the touch of that animal. It's the pros of the voice because literally that dog understands the pros of the voice and also, to some extent, I think they can read our faces. But more than that, there's one other sense, which I haven't brought up, which is part of human relationship and that smell.
当然，你知道，也许是通过相同的东西。我想说的是，我认为狗与人的交流，包括我自己的四只狗，主要依靠的是触觉。就是抚摸动物的那种接触，以及声音的语调，因为狗确实能理解声音的语调。此外，我觉得它们在一定程度上也能读懂我们的脸部表情。但不仅如此，还有一种感官一直没提到，它是人类关系的一部分，那就是嗅觉。
Okay, and this is overlooked in human relationship. But in real intimate context between human beings, the smell is really a key there. You know, I think about sexual arousal. So dogs are really very strong on our smell, etc. But if attachment is reunion after a separation, you come home. There's that dog sitting there, literally, and immediately you're down regulating the day. You have now taken off the whole left hemisphere and our whole stresses of all of that.
好的，这一点在人与人关系中常常被忽视。但在真正亲密的人际关系中，气味确实是一个关键因素。比如说性唤起的时候，我会想到这一点。狗对我们的气味非常敏感等等。如果说依恋是分离后的重聚，那么当你回到家时，那只狗就坐在那里，立刻让你一天的紧张情绪得以缓解。此时，你就像是把左脑和所有压力都卸掉了。
And you're now shifting left into right. And we use the mechanisms that are available to do that. And music is one of the ways to do that. So in some sense, music is an order regulation. Although music can be live music, and then it's more than that. So that's the case. Or playing music with others. This is something I'm incapable of because I have no musical ability. But playing music with others, you can see that when we talk about the chemistry of a band, it's so incredible to witness that. And then to feel it en masse with thousands, maybe of other people. Yeah, there have been studies to show that during a performance, there is a synchrony, there are synchronized states between the performer and the audience. And it's certainly there all, you can have thousands of people, literally, in that same synchronized state at that point in time.
你现在正在将左转变为右，而我们利用现有的机制来实现这一点。音乐就是其中一种方式。所以某种意义上，音乐是一种秩序的调节工具。虽然音乐可以是现场演奏，但它不仅仅是如此。或者与他人一起演奏音乐。这一点我做不到，因为我没有音乐才能。但与他人一起演奏音乐时，你会发现我们常说的乐队之间的"化学反应"是多么让人惊叹。然后和成千上万的人一同感受这种体验。是的，有研究表明在表演过程中，表演者和观众之间会达到同步的状态。在那一刻，真的可以有成千上万的人同时进入这种同步状态。
As you mentioned earlier, Stephen Porges' work. And we know that brain and body are connected in both directions. And I should know this, but I don't know if the right brain has preferential communication with the parasympathetic or sympathetic or other aspects of Vegas as parasympathetic. But I think it's probably both. I think the more we discover about the Vegas, it's likely to be mixed sympathetic parasympathetic. But I'll catch some heat for that, but that's okay. But is the bodily sensing a real thing? Like there are ways that our diaphragm and our core relax when we're happy. I mean, all of this is obvious to anyone. But I'm just curious how right brain links up with bodily states. The right brain is more connected into the body than the left brain. Incidentally, do you know the name Ian McGillquist?
如你之前提到的，Stephen Porges的研究。我们知道大脑和身体是双向连接的。我应该知道这点，但我不清楚右脑是否更倾向与副交感神经、交感神经，或是与其他的迷走神经副交感方面沟通。不过我认为可能两者都有。随着我们对迷走神经的研究深入，很可能是交感和副交感都有作用。虽然这么说可能会引起一些争议，但没关系。那么，身体感知是真实存在的吗？比如当我们快乐时，隔膜和核心区域会放松。我觉得这些对每个人来说都显而易见。我只是好奇右脑如何与身体状态连接。右脑确实比左脑与身体的连接更多。顺便问一下，你知道Ian McGillquist这个名字吗？
Yes. I know the name and many people have commented on our Youtube channel that I need to talk to Ian. That's all that I have gotten that far, but I've been busy. Get him. Get him. Ian, we'll send you an invite. Yeah. I mean, there has been ongoing dialogue between us for some time. But Ian talks about that the right brain literally is much more connected into the body. And incidentally, it was also more dominant for will. Unconscious will is more important than conscious will, which you kind of at the very beginning, we were talking about the left versus the right.
是的，我知道这个名字，很多人在我们的YouTube频道留言说我需要和伊恩聊聊。我目前了解到的就是这些，但我一直很忙。去找他，去找他。伊恩，我们会给你发邀请的。也就是说，我们之间已经有一段时间的对话了。但伊恩提到，右脑实际上与身体的连接更紧密。此外，右脑在意志方面也更占优势。无意识的意志比有意识的意志更重要，这与我们最开始谈到的左脑和右脑的区别有些关联。
Yeah. So I'm curious as to how people can start to sense these right brain left brain shifts. We talked about how paying a little less attention to the content of words and a little bit more to how a conversation is feeling independent of the word content might be part of it. We hear a lot these days about how body posture matters. You know, like if people are closed up with their arms crossed, I don't know. But sometimes I'm just a little chilly, so I'll cross my arms. And sometimes I'll cross my arms and lean in and I know that I'm in a much more attuned state. So I don't put too much weight on that, but maybe I should put more weight on that. What are your thoughts?
好的。我很好奇人们是如何开始感知到大脑左右半球的转变。我们讨论过少关注词语的内容，多关注谈话感觉的变化可能是其中的一部分。我们经常听到肢体姿势的重要性，比如人们双臂交叉时可能显得封闭。不过有时候我只是觉得有点冷，所以会交叉双臂。而有时我交叉双臂并靠近对方，我知道自己处于更加专注的状态。所以我对肢体语言不太在意，但可能应该更重视一些。你怎么看？
Yeah. There's classical work on by the analysts by the name of Manuel Hammer. And he was talking about how to reach the affect. And what he suggested is that there are certain moments of this session when literally my body, in order to pick up the communications of the patient, I lean back. I'm not leaning forward into it. I lean back and let the atmosphere literally come over me, so to speak. I love this. And I'm just, forgive me for interrupting, but I love this because people, especially on social media, they take a piece of information. Like, you know, if you're leaned back, you're disengaged. You're leaned forward, you're engaged, but you could also just turn it right around and say, if you're leaned forward, you're in painting. And then the person doesn't have space. And so it becomes a, frankly, becomes a bunch of BS. But notice here what I'm talking about, what the therapist is attempting to do is to make an emotional connection and impact the connection. And in order to make an impact the connection, you're leaning back. You're leaning back. And literally, as you lean back, all of a sudden, you're able to pick up things and hear things that you didn't see before, so to speak.
是的，有一位名叫曼纽尔·哈默的分析师在这方面的经典研究。他讨论了如何与情绪产生共鸣。他建议，在某些治疗环节中，我要将身体向后倾，以便更好地接收到病人的交流，而不是向前倾。我非常喜欢这个观点。请原谅我的打断，但我非常喜欢这个，因为人们，尤其是在社交媒体上，总是片面地解读信息。比如，他们会认为如果你向后靠就是不投入，而向前倾就是投入，但也可以完全反过来说，如果你向前倾，可能会让对方感觉没有空间。因此，这可能会导致误解。请注意，我所谈论的是，治疗师试图建立一种情感连接并产生影响。为了达到这种影响，你需要向后倾。当你向后靠时，你突然能感受到和听到之前没有察觉到的细节。
And frequently what happens when you're in an emotional connection like that, images will come to your mind, images which really represent the emotional experience that the others have. And at that point in time also, what you'll find is that just as you're picking up that person's image, he's picking up your person's image. And what Hammer says is that we have, what we have here is something that's like an affective wireless between the two, because it's going back and forth between the two of us, just like a right brain to right brain communication, affected by it.
当你处于这样的情感交流中时，通常会发生这样的情况：一些图像会浮现在你的脑海中，这些图像实际上代表了他人的情感体验。同时，你会发现，就像你在接收到对方的图像时，对方也在接收到你的图像。Hammer认为这种情况就像是一种情感的"无线通讯"，因为图像在你们之间来回传递，就像右脑与右脑之间的沟通一样，受到情感的影响。
Freud said, the human unconscious acts like a receptor, and it picks up the communications of the unconscious of another human being. Freud said, literally, human beings can pick up the unconscious without it going through the conscious mind. So again, in that kind of a context, that makes sense. The other thing I want to say about all of these behaviors that are going on now when there is an emotional communication, the key is spontaneous behaviors. Spontaneous. Not thought out behaviors, spontaneous behaviors.
弗洛伊德说，人类的无意识就像一个接收器，它能够接收到其他人无意识的交流。弗洛伊德的字面意思是，人类能够接收到他人的无意识信息，而不用通过有意识的思维。因此，在这样的背景下，这就说得通了。我还想说，当现在发生情感交流时，行为的关键在于自发性。要自发的行为，不是经过思考的行为，而是自发的行为。
When there's spontaneous behaviors, there's more trust in them being in the first place. But there's not a mind that is attempting to present anything. And when you have two people revealing their spontaneous behaviors to each other, even if they're not sure how they're going to be affected, that also is a matter for synchrony. In order for there to be synchrony, there has to be spontaneous two-way communications, turn-taking communications. And incidentally, as we talk about this conversation, what is set up in the attachment between the mother and the infant, the infant makes a cry.
当行为是自发的时候，人们更容易相信这些行为是真实的，因为这些行动并不是经过精心策划的。当两个人都向对方展示他们的自发行为时，即使他们不确定这些行为会带来什么影响，他们之间也更容易形成同步关系。要实现这种同步关系，需要有自发的双向交流和轮流互动。顺便说一下，在母亲和婴儿之间的这种互动中，当婴儿哭泣时，就形成了这种联结。
The mother response is that they are now taking turns. There's turn-taking behavior. And in a good relationship, what you find is more or less smooth turn-taking behaviors. And incidentally, you and I, who have never met before, are not doing too badly in these spontaneous turn-taking behaviors between us. I appreciate you saying that. I feel the same way.
母亲的回应是他们现在正在轮流进行互动。这是一种轮流互动的行为。在良好的关系中，你会发现轮流互动行为基本上是顺畅的。顺便说一下，你和我虽然从未见过面，但在我们之间这种自发的轮流互动中表现得还不错。我很感谢你这么说。我也是这样的感觉。
Text messaging has become a dominant mode of communication these days. And I've hosted a few guests expert in emotions in the brain, Lisa Feldman Barrett, for instance, and others. And she and others have talked about how the emojification of emotions, you know, just like a smiley face or a crying face or a goodness or a mind blown. And she's very convenient, as is shorthand text, lack of punctuation, et cetera.
这些天，短信已成为主要的交流方式。我曾邀请了一些在大脑情感方面的专家作为嘉宾，比如Lisa Feldman Barrett等人。她和其他专家谈到，如今情感的“表情化”——比如用笑脸、哭脸或惊讶、震惊的表情来表达情绪。这样方式很方便，就像简短的文字消息、缺乏标点符号等一样。
But today's conversation also highlights the extent to which text messaging is much devoid of most everything that you're talking about. A green bubble or a blue bubble, seen or not seen, you know, red or not met, red, depending on how you set your settings. The latency, the turn-taking, it's complicated. Sometimes people layer in multiple conversations and you're going back and forth about a couple of different things. And then, like your food order comes.
但今天的对话也突显出短信交流缺乏许多你所谈论的元素。无论是绿色气泡还是蓝色气泡，被看到还是没被看到，已读还是未读，都取决于你的设置。延迟、轮流回复，这些都很复杂。有时候，人们会同时进行多个对话，不停地在几个不同的事情间来回切换。然后，比如说，你的食物订单来了。
I mean, sure, the human brain can handle this. But this seems either not good, neutral, that is, or bad for building and reinforcing communication. It actually concerns me, but of course, I'm now 49, so I can say things like now that I'm 49, I can say things like that, you know, but it concerns me because I think that you can imagine the young brain and older brain essentially not being good at interpersonal dynamics because of text messaging. I agree.
我的意思是，人类的大脑当然可以处理这些。但这看起来对建立和加强沟通不是很好，最多只是中立，甚至可能有害。这实际上让我很担心，不过当然，我现在49岁了，我可以说这样的话，但我担心是因为我认为，你可以想象年轻的大脑和年长的大脑因为短信而不善于处理人际关系。我同意这个观点。
I agree. First of all, let me mention that one of Ian's ideas is that essentially the left hemisphere is becoming more and more dominant today in not only in this country. And he sees that as really as a huge problem because the title of his book is The Master and the Semissary and the Emissary, which is the left brain, betrays the master. So he sees that one of the problems we're dealing with right now is that there's the left hemisphere is there and that these right hemisphere is even metaphors are problematic.
我同意。首先让我提到，伊恩的一个观点是，如今不仅在这个国家，左脑变得越来越占主导地位。他认为这确实是个大问题，因为他书的标题是《主人与使者》，而使者就是左脑，背叛了主人。所以他认为我们现在面临的问题之一是左脑的影响，而甚至右脑的隐喻也存在问题。
So I have a rule. I don't argue over text. I don't like to argue over text. I don't like to argue period, but I don't, you know, I'll pick up the phone. I'm of the generation where we called one another. I find text to be completely devoid of what I'm really seeking in terms of connection. And I think that there's an entire, I know there's an entire generation of people that grew up communicating mainly through short message. Jonathan Haidt and the author of The Anxious Generation has been encouraging young kids to put away their phones and get out and interact more, encouraging parents to let their kids be more, what they call free range kids and do this kind of thing, arguing that there's far fewer dangers in the physical world than there are in the online world for young brains. He makes a convincing argument.
所以我有个原则，我不喜欢通过短信争吵。我不爱争吵，就算要争吵，我也会打电话。我属于那个打电话交流的时代。我觉得短信完全缺乏我所寻求的沟通方式。我知道，现在有一整代人主要通过短消息进行交流。乔纳森·海特和《充满焦虑的一代》的作者一直鼓励年轻人放下手机，多进行面对面的互动，同时鼓励家长让孩子们成为所谓的“放养孩子”。他们认为，相比在线世界，年轻的大脑在现实世界中面临的危险要少得多。他的观点很有说服力。
For those of us that are seeking to have better connection, maybe even do some healing of the right brain circuitry that you're talking about today, do you think that there's a hierarchy of effectiveness such that, you know, like text would be perhaps at the bottom, voice memo, maybe next level up, I'm thinking here, a phone call, you know, there was a time when we wrote handwritten letters and those felt very meaningful. I kept handwritten letters from people that I cared about and that cared about me. The handwritten letters are proves that it doesn't have to be a real-time exchange, but there's something about handwriting. A typewritten letter by today's standards would also be a significant thing, but, you know, there really seems to be something special. About a letter, a face-to-face conversation. In terms of literally the point of the letter and the attempt of the letter literally was to make a connection. I can remember in my childhood going away to camp...
对于我们那些希望建立更好联系，甚至试图疗愈您今天谈到的右脑回路的人来说，您认为在沟通效率上是否存在一个层级呢？比如说，文本信息可能是最低效的，通过语音留言可能会好一些，再到比如电话交流。曾几何时，我们写亲笔信，那些信让人感到很有意义。我会保存那些来自我在乎的人和在乎我的人的亲笔信。亲笔信证明了交流不需要是实时的，但手写的东西有其特别之处。在今天看来，一封用打字机打出的信也会显得很特别，但似乎有什么特别之处是关于信件的，以及面对面的交流。同时，信件的目的实际上就是为了建立联系。我还记得在童年时期去夏令营的时候...
And we would write letters back and forth. And the words that were being used there were literally about making a connection and feeling you in, which also meant that I had to reflect about my connection. And I had to reflect about myself and what was happening with me and how I felt about that and how I was sharing all of that, you know, with another person. That has really gone into the background and things have become much more impersonal. But I want to point out that for a certain type of personality, texting fits perfectly. These are people that walk around with left brains that are high perch your feet. People living in the left, living in the left, that's right...
我们来回写信，信中的文字主要是关于建立联系和感受彼此。这样一来，我就不得不反思我的联结，以及了解我自己、我正在经历的事情，以及我对这些事情的感觉，同时还要思考我如何与另一个人分享这一切。这些交流方式如今已成为背景，变得更加冷漠。但我想指出的是，对于某种类型的人来说，发短信是再合适不过的。这些人大多是理性思维占优势的左脑型人才，也就是大脑主要活跃在左半球的人。
This is an only before, I just want to point out there are other ways literally of feeding the right brain of what it needs. And one of the other ways also is going out into the world, is traveling, is being in nature, sharing those kinds of things also. Those are also in addition to the in-person situations here. But we're seeing changes here, we're seeing changes here and I'm not so sure too many of these are good. Let me throw out. I made a little list of the areas which are now being studied which are showing that clearly this is right brain dominance in these activities. Yeah, please share...
这只是一个前提，我想指出，实际上还有其他方式可以满足右脑的需求。其中一种方式就是走出家门，去旅行，亲近大自然，分享这些体验。这些都是面对面交流之外的途径。不过，我们看到了一些变化，但我不太确定这些变化中有多少是好的。让我来列举一下吧。我做了一个小清单，这些领域正在被研究，并且明确显示在这些活动中是右脑占主导地位。请分享……
Stop me at any point. Essentially the argument that I'm making in this new book on human nature is that the highest levels of human nature are on the right brain. So essentially intuition, now remember intuition is there for all kinds of professions. One of the things that a fireman gains over time is literally how to redefire. Intuition, purely right brain, incidentally. And intuition literally is drawing on body sensations also, etc. Imagery. Creativity. A lot of evidence showing creativity. The ability to processing something novel and something new...
随时可以打断我。我在这本关于人性的新书中提出的主要观点是，人性的最高层次在于右脑。基本上可以说直觉，而要记住，直觉对各种职业都很重要。举个例子，一名消防员随着时间的推移学会了如何重新理解火灾。这种直觉完全是右脑在发挥作用的结果。而直觉实际上也涉及到身体的感知，以及图像、创造力等等。有很多证据表明，创造力、处理新事物的能力都与此相关……
Metaphors. Imagination. Studies. Humor. Music. Poetry. Art. Morality. Compassion. Spirituality. And the best for last. Love. That's a spectacular list making the right brain circuitry at least among the most exciting circuits, certainly important circuits. I threw an ad for the next book. I love right brain psychotherapy. Love, love, love it. I own a hardcover copy. I've owned it for a couple years now. Highly recommend it. We'll put links to your books in the show. Get to development of the unconscious mind also. Okay. We'll do...
隐喻、想象、研究、幽默、音乐、诗歌、艺术、道德、同情心和精神世界，最后是最棒的——爱。这是一份令人惊叹的清单，充分展示了右脑回路的魅力，至少是最令人兴奋且无疑重要的回路之一。这是我为下一本书做的广告。我热爱右脑心理治疗，真的非常喜欢。我还有一本精装版的书，已经拥有好几年了，强烈推荐。我们会在节目中附上你书的链接。同时，我们也将探讨无意识心灵的发展。好的，我们会的...
What are some activities that allow us to quote unquote drop into our right brain circuitry a bit more? One that immediately leapt to mind as you mentioned nature and interacting with nature and we were talking about music is walking. And earlier we talked about you educated us on rather this notion of wide range attention. This evenly suspended attention that is associated with the right brain. This kind of widening of gaze as opposed to narrow gaze and narrow attention that is associated with left brain circuitry. When we're out in nature and when we're ambulating, when we're walking, provided we're not looking at our phone, one hopes, or looking for something specific like a bird that we've spotted, we tend to be in panoramic vision. I'm a vision scientist so I can't help myself...
有哪些活动可以让我们更好地进入右脑思维？你提到大自然和与大自然的互动时，一个立刻浮现在脑海中的活动就是散步。之前我们谈到了你向我们介绍过的一种叫做“广泛注意”的概念，这种注意力的均匀分布与右脑有关。这种视野的扩大与左脑相关的狭窄视野和集中注意相对。在大自然中行走时，只要我们不是在看手机，或者特意找某个比如说我们发现的鸟，我们往往会处于全景式的视觉中。我是视觉科学家，所以忍不住要提到这点...
You know what we call magna solar vision. These are like big pixels. I'm aware. Yeah. Taking it all in. It's more spherical than kind of a cone of attention. I would imagine that might be more right brain associated. What are some things that you, if you suggest to your patients? Like hey, until our next session, do you encourage them to journal, free associate journal, to listen to music, to take walks? Or do you restrict the activation of this right brain circuitry to the session and then let it just show up as it were? Yeah. So you let it then sort of just default to what's happening there? Yeah. Two points here. First of all, on therapy. I think there's been too much of an emphasis on technique in therapy...
你知道我们所说的“大太阳视觉”是什么吗？这类似于大像素。我知道，是的，全面吸收。这种视觉更像是球形而不是专注的锥形。我想，这可能更靠近右脑关联。你会给病人建议些什么吗？比如说，在我们下次会面之前，你鼓励他们写日记、进行自由联想写作、听音乐、散步吗？或者，你会将右脑神经活动的激发限制在治疗会话中，然后让它自然而然地出现？是的。你是否让它自然而然地进行？这里有两点。首先，关于治疗。我认为在治疗中，过多地强调技术……
And really what the right brain research is showing is that it's the right brain process. That's the key here more than the technique. And so that being the case due to my own training of psychotherapy has shown to be more effective in making long term changes. And even changes after the treatment is over, then other forms of therapy like CBT. So I think there's been too much on that. On the matter of other experiences, the right brain is also dominant for processing novel information. Anytime something new comes up, the right picks it up first and you get a burst of noradrenaline out of that also. In pursuit of continuing to have a curious mind, an open mind, I think is part of that and seeking new experiences in different parts of the world. There's an economic piece of that also. But with new challenges, bring up new challenges that we have and to essentially, if possible, feed curiosity, curiosity. Einstein even said something essentially along those lines there. So new experiences with new people, new challenges, new places to see, new travel, I think is one of those.
事实上，右脑研究表明，关键在于右脑的处理过程，而不是技术本身。这也是为什么根据我在心理治疗方面的训练，利用右脑过程进行治疗被证明在实现长期变化方面更有效，即使是在治疗结束后，也比像认知行为疗法这样的其他形式的治疗更有效。我认为这个问题已经被过度关注了。在处理其他体验方面，右脑在处理新信息时也占据主导地位。每当有新事物出现时，右脑会首先捕捉到，这时会释放出一阵去甲肾上腺素。为了保持好奇心和开放的心态，寻求世界各地的新体验是其中的一部分。这其中也有经济因素。但新挑战的出现也为我们带来了新的挑战，尽可能地激发和满足好奇心是很重要的。爱因斯坦甚至也曾表达过类似的观点。因此，与新的人交流、面对新的挑战、看到新的地方和旅行等都是其中的一部分。
And it turned out to be one of the great fortunate gifts that came from all of this. I was a therapist only for about 45 years and I came into this late. I wrote this book late and literally it's led me into new relationships and new friends, who starts making friends at 45 and 50 years old. But again, novelties and sharing that I think is also another way of doing that. Plus, you said this, I'll repeat it. Exercise. Exercise is a key here. I happen to be interested in energy and in mitochondria. And there's a scientist Navio at San Diego who was written on this and he's talking about the healing process. And part of the healing process literally is exercise. That's fundamental to healing of whatever physical and mental and also restorative sleep. So taking care of our body.
这竟然成了这整个过程中一个巨大的幸运礼物。我当了大约45年的治疗师，而且我是在很晚的时候才开始这份职业的。我也是在很晚的时候才写了这本书，而它实际上让我结识了新的朋友和建立了新的关系，想想看，谁会在45岁或50岁的时候开始交朋友呢？不过，有新鲜事物和分享，我认为这也是一种方法。此外，你提到过这一点，我再重复一次：锻炼。锻炼是关键。我对能量和线粒体非常感兴趣。有一位在圣地亚哥的科学家Navio就这个主题进行了研究，他谈到了愈合过程。而愈合过程的一部分实际上就是锻炼。这对无论是身体还是心理的痊愈，以及恢复性的睡眠都是至关重要的。所以，我们要好好照顾自己的身体。
One of the things that we learned early in our experiences mostly taught through the bodies, literally how to take care of our bodies. And what you're all aware of, you don't see that in certain pathologies. And you also have certain, and I'm talking about more than just self destructive like cutting it, but ultimately the ability to be able to look inward. To be able to reflect back upon the self. And to be able to see even what we want to see and don't want to see. Now, I want to just make a quick reference to defenses. Because defenses can be adaptive and maladaptive and they're important. And they're there. For example, we have defenses against overwhelming affect dissociation is defense against overwhelming affect. But we also have defense like repression, which is part of all human beings. And repression can be normal and adaptive or it can be maladaptive. And it's maladaptive literally when it's when it's when the repression is very strong essentially. What you have there is that the left hemisphere is just shutting out at anything coming over from the right. That's what repression, the left hemisphere just shutting that all out.
我们的早期经历教会了我们很多东西，其中之一就是如何照顾自己的身体。这些知识大多是通过身体学习到的。对于某些病理状态，你可能注意不到这个方面。除此之外，我谈论的不仅仅是自我伤害，比如割伤自己，而是最终发展出反思自我的能力，即向内审视的能力。这样我们就能够看清自己想看到和不想看到的东西。我想简单提一下"防御机制"。防御机制可以是适应性的，也可以是适应不良的，且它们很重要并一直存在。比如，我们有对抗压倒性情感的防御机制，解离就是一种对抗压倒性情感的防御。但我们也有像压抑这样的防御，这是所有人类共有的一部分。压抑可以是正常和适应性的，也可能适应不良。当压抑非常强烈时就属于适应不良的情况。在这种情况下，左脑会完全屏蔽来自右脑的信息，这就是压抑在起作用的地方：左脑屏蔽所有来自右脑的信息。
So part of this is becoming more aware of those defenses that we have also. And I want to make this point also. There are certain parts of ourselves which we cannot see. We can only see them when we're getting feedback from somebody who knows this and can see those things in us. And even if at the time they're uncomfortable. But we need that feedback from somebody we trust to be able to see. Which is why this ability literally to completely change one's psychology is highly problematic. Because remember what you're attempting to do is to change the right brain. Which is why intimate relationships, close relationships with whom we can share things is really a key there also. We are everybody has blind spots. And the way out of that again is is is trusting enough to take in negative feedback. You know at times also. My own feeling is that when something hits me. Let's say a disappointment hits me. And one of the things I learned early about my own emotion because in order to study emotion. You have to study your own emotion etc.
因此，这其中的一部分是让我们更加意识到自身的防御机制。我还想强调这一点：我们有些方面是自己看不到的，只有通过那些了解我们并能看到这些方面的人给出的反馈，我们才能察觉。即便这些反馈在当时可能让人不太舒服，但我们需要一个值得信任的人提供这样的反馈来帮助我们看清自己。这也是为何彻底改变一个人的心理状态是非常困难的。因为你试图改变的是右脑，这就需要建立能够分享的亲密关系、密切的联系作为关键。每个人都有盲点，而走出盲点的方法就是有足够的信任来接纳负面反馈。有时候，我自己的感受是，当我遇到打击，比如失望的时候，我学会了要早期理解自己的情绪，因为研究情绪的同时也需要研究自己的情绪，等等。
That for me literally when something comes I just let it come and move wherever it's going to go. And feel it just at all of its intensity and strength. And even after sharing it literally. Letting it penetrate down so to speak. And ultimately at some point it'll come back into another shape in the form. But our emotions are adapted. And again I want to point out one of the major fallacies is that negative emotions are bad. And positive emotions are good. Positive emotions are good. Manic emotions etc. Negative emotions are bad. Losses you know. We are wired for all of these emotions because they have adaptive value. And we need to be able to be familiar with all of those different types of emotions. You know that that come our way in our lives.
对我来说，当情感出现时，我就让它自然来临，并随它的发展方向而去。尽情感受它的强烈和力量。即便在分享之后，我也让它深入内心。最终，它会以另一种形式再次出现。我们的情感是不断调整适应的。我想强调一个常见的误区：认为负面情绪是不好的，而正面情绪是好的。积极的情绪当然是好的，但躁狂的情绪等也是。负面情绪通常被认为是不好的，比如失落等。然而，我们天生就拥有这些情绪，因为它们具有适应的价值。我们需熟悉这些在生活中可能会遇到的各类情感。
I have a friend he's a songwriter and he told me that he has this process whereby he writes music every day. But he starts his day by painting or drawing. I think he's sold some paintings and drawings. But that's not his main vocation. But he told me that he draws in paints as a way to sort of grease the gears to songwriting. And then I learned that Joni Mitchell did this too or something similar. And I can't help but wonder whether or not they've unconsciously tapped into a mode of bringing right brain circuitry up in terms of its activity. Neither of them are known as painters or artists. But of course musical artists and quite accomplished ones at that. Is that sort of tool or technique make sense? Yeah it does. Essentially it's creativity. Which again is the ability to see something novel in a new way. To look at the same thing but through new eyes. I think those are ways of literally artists know literally how to surrender out of the left and get into the right. And you're seeing these mechanisms surrender.
我有一个朋友，他是一位词曲作者。他告诉我，他每天都有写音乐的习惯。不过，他通常会通过画画或绘画来开始一天的工作。我记得他也卖过一些画作，但这并不是他的主要职业。他说绘画对他而言是一种为创作音乐“润滑齿轮”的方法。后来我得知Joni Mitchell也做过类似的事情。我不禁怀疑，他们是不是无意识中激活了右脑活动的一种方式。虽然他们都不是以画家或艺术家的身份为人所知，但当然都是非常出色的音乐艺术家。这种方法或技巧是否有意义？是的，确实有意义。基本上，这都是在谈创造力。创造力就是能够从新的角度去看待事物的能力，能够用新鲜的视角去看同一件事。我认为这些就是艺术家们知道如何从左脑的思维模式中跳脱出来，进入右脑状态的方法。你可以看到这些机制的运作。
But let me share something else more autobiographical about what you're saying. When I decided to, I knew that I was going to write something at a certain point in time. And so for 10 years I went into a period of self-study. And literally I went to a library, Cal State Library near me. And I just went through the stacks. You remember what it was like to go through the stacks. And I started to move into psychology, into neurology, into chemistry. But then I found myself doing something else. I went back to the piano. I took piano as a teenager. It led nowhere. But as an adult I went back to the piano. We have a piano in the house that came from my in-laws. Because I wanted to know something in my fingers. I didn't want to know something in my logic. I knew that the way that I usually would understand things would be rationally and logically. But I wanted to be able to play and be able to play again purely so that it was in my fingers. And I also wanted to be able to visualize. So I got to a point now where I started to be able to see a cell. And I could visualize mitochondrial moving now up into the dendrites at the cell memory. So that visualization capacity as well as the musical capacity was my intuitive way of starting now more and more to get me to lean into the right to be able to learn how to be in the right. Amazing. I love this. And I'll refrain from sharing my personal use of such avenues into the right. But I want to make clear I understand you're in the stacks of books in the library. It feels and sounds like a cognitive endeavor, a left brain endeavor. But then it just came to you. I want to play the piano or through the research that you were doing this 10 year self research amazing, by the way, I'm like so struck by that. Then did it just come to you in a flash? Like I want to play the piano again. And it wasn't because playing the piano contrasted so much with looking through the stacks or they were aligned. No, it just meant those for me that was exploration. It was exploration. Got it. It was all new information. And I found that I could master more than the field that I was trained in. Let me give you one other experience. That is a lot of evidence to show the aha experience is right brain also. So there are times when literally insights will come quickly and suddenly and it'll seem to come out of nowhere. And all of a sudden the muse is there. So that was an aha experience. And when I thought about it, it just made all kinds of sense. And I was a purpose to it because again, I needed to get past doing that.
让我分享一些与您所说内容相关的自传性经历。当我决定写作时，我知道在某个时刻会开始动笔。因此，我花了十年时间进行自学。我常去附近的加州州立图书馆，穿梭于书架之间。你还记得在书架之间穿梭是什么感觉吗？我开始研究心理学、神经学和化学，但后来我发现自己又做了些别的事。我重拾钢琴，青少年时我学过，但没有深入。不过成年后，我又开始弹钢琴了。家里有一架来自岳父母的钢琴，因为我想通过手指去感知，而不是仅靠理性去理解。我知道自己通常是通过理性和逻辑来理解事物，但这次我想纯粹通过手指的演奏重新体验音乐。我还想进行视觉化的练习，以至于我现在可以想象细胞的样子，还能看到线粒体移到树突的细胞记忆中。这种视觉化能力和音乐能力成了我直觉的一部分，让我能更多地转向正确的大脑半球去学习，这真是太神奇了。我非常喜欢这种体验。
我想表达的是，我理解你在图书馆书架中遍历书籍的过程，看似是一种认知上的、左脑的活动。然后突然之间，你萌生了想弹钢琴的念头，或者是在你进行自我研究的这十年中，这种念头突然出现，我对此深感震撼。但这种愿望是突然冒出来的吗？就是‘我想再次弹钢琴’这样的念头？这不是由于弹钢琴和阅读书籍有对比，而是它们是相辅相成的。对我来说，这只是一种探索。一切都是新信息，我发现我能掌握超出自身专业领域的知识。我还经历了另一种体验，有很多证据表明‘灵光一现’的体验也是右脑的功能。有时，灵感会突然快速涌现，看似无中生有，灵感女神瞬间降临。这就是一种‘灵光一现’的体验，仔细想来，一切都变得格外合理，并且有明确的目的，因为我需要超越那种理解方式。
Let me tell you something else that I decided to do very early on as I was setting off into this 10 year period. I decided never to memorize anything. Tell me more. It's a lot of effort that gets nowhere. Literally what I wanted to do as I wanted to understand it in the way that I could understand it. So there's a lot of wasted time and memorization and that being the case. As you can imagine, I have a rather enormous memory. I know where things are. I'm not where they are. I know how to get them. I know what's important. And I know how to put into a place where I can get.
让我告诉你一件我在这十年计划开始时就决定要做的事情：我决定绝不死记硬背任何东西。于是，我选择理解知识，用我能理解的方式去掌握它。死记硬背浪费了大量时间，几乎没有实际效果。正因为如此，你可以想象，我的记忆力相当强大。我知道东西在哪里，如何获取它们，知道什么是重要的，并且知道如何将它们放到一个我可以轻松找到的地方。
I know where that article is. And incidentally, when I'm working initially, I would write everything down and the writing had an effect of putting that more into my memory. Even now, when I'm studying, I'll take papers. I'll Xerox them and I'll read them at my desk. I will not read and study right off the computer. In other words, I was learning my own technique of learning. So important. I often get asked, you know, what's your note-taking process? How do you prepare a solo episode? I do these long solos that I have only a few pages of notes. I could describe it, but the process is so specific to the way that I learn across the whatever six, eight, ten weeks that it takes me to prepare for one of those, sometimes more, that it wouldn't really translate like it doesn't matter. No. But there's a process of introspection there about literally how do I learn and how can I literally absorb the information so that it goes in deep.
我知道那篇文章在哪里。顺便说一下，在我最初工作时，我会把所有东西都写下来，而写作也会帮助我更好地记住这些内容。即便是现在，当我学习的时候，我也会拿着纸质材料，把它们复印出来，然后在桌子上阅读。我不会直接从电脑上阅读和学习。换句话说，我在学习自己的学习方法。这个过程非常重要。经常有人问我，你的笔记流程是什么？你如何准备一个个人讲述的节目？我会做一些长时间的个人讲述，而只需几页笔记。我可以描述这个过程，但这个过程非常独特，是我在准备一个节目时的学习方式，通常需要六、八、甚至十周，有时更长，所以并不容易转述。重要的是，这里面有一个自省的过程，关于我是如何学习的，以及如何让我真正吸收这些信息，使其深入记忆。
The left hemisphere essentially is a surface hemisphere. The right hemisphere is the one of depth, so to speak. And what goes into the right, for example, if you have an experience, an emotional experience that's really important, that goes deep into your autobiographical memory. That's much deeper than you're attempting to memorize something at any point in time. Given the extreme importance of this right brain circuitry and of this autonomic synchrony between mother and typically mother, primary caretaker, that is, and infant, what are some things that are known from the literature as critically important about that stage in terms of, you know, amount of time spent with the child. You know, oftentimes parents are working. There are nannies or any number of different things. There are a lot of different structures nowadays for families and balancing work and family. But is there anything known about how to, I hate to use the word optimize, but maximize the health of the relationship? Yeah. I don't think that this culture compared to other cultures really provides for that kind of time. I think that people are stressed because of that.
左脑基本上是一个“表面”脑半球，而右脑可以说是“深层”脑半球。当你经历一个重要的情感体验时，它会深入到你的自传记忆中，这比你在任何时候试图记忆某些事情都更深刻。考虑到右脑回路和母亲与婴儿之间自主同步的重要意义，文献中有哪些关键因素被认为对这个阶段是至关重要的，比如与孩子相处的时间长度。如今，许多家长都在工作，可能有保姆或其他多种家庭结构来平衡工作和家庭。那么，关于如何，虽然我不太喜欢用“优化”这个词，但最大化这种关系的健康程度，有什么已知的信息吗？我认为，与其他文化相比，我们的文化并没有为这种时间提供足够的支持，因此，人们对此感到压力大。
And now I'm going to talk about maternal leave and paternal leave in other rich countries. The paternal leave is three months and maternal leave is six months or more in Scandinavia. So these other countries have figured out this time of life is critical. That if you really want to affect a personality and help shape that personality to be a moral person or, you know, to have values, et cetera, the time, literally, that to put in is the earliest years. That's when it's there, so to speak. And without that kind of leave policy in this country, most people go back to work at six weeks. Six weeks is at the beginning of the critical period of the right brain. The autonomic nervous system is in a critical period at six to eight weeks. The amygdala is coming into a critical period. The basal lateral amygdala, the insula and the singular are in a critical period at that point in time. This is before the child's form and attachment or separation. So I see this as literally, and as I'm well aware of, there's now talking about this more and more.
现在我想谈谈其他富裕国家的产假和陪产假。在斯堪的纳维亚国家，陪产假是三个月，而产假是六个月或更长时间。这些国家意识到这一人生阶段非常重要。如果你真的想影响一个人的性格，并帮助塑造他们成为有道德的人，或者说具有价值观，那么投入的时间应该是人生最初的几年。所谓“就在那时”。而在我们这个国家，由于缺乏这样的休假政策，大多数人在六周后就返回工作岗位。六周正是大脑右半球的关键发育期，此时自主神经系统也处于关键期。杏仁核、外侧基底杏仁核、岛叶和扣带回在此时都处于关键期。这还在孩子形成依附关系或分离之前。所以我认为这是非常重要的，而且我注意到现在越来越多的人开始讨论这个话题。
In fact, the recent debate, there was discussion of this also about this problem. The London School of Economics had a study about what is the best predictor, the best childhood predictor of adult satisfaction in life. And the best predictor was emotion. And the second was the child's conduct. And the third and last was the child's IQ. We have things upside down here. We are focusing too much on executive functions that come online of the third year. And again, what I'm suggesting to you is that the whole foundations of our personality are starting in utero. Through the second and the third year, and then, you know, with the father, etc. That's where we literally should be putting the money and the money should be there so that it provides the time. Every other culture has figured this out. The UNICEF took a poll in 2021 of 36 countries, rich countries. We came in last in emotional well being, childhood well being. Shame. It is a shame. What's wonderful, however, is that you're highlighting these issues. So many people are hearing about this. And I encourage anyone, everyone listening to really take in the ordering of importance of what Dr. Shor just shared, that IQ third on the list, emotion regulation. Number one, conduct. Yeah.
事实上，在最近的辩论中，也讨论了这个问题。伦敦经济学院进行了一项研究，探讨什么是预测成人生活满意度的最佳童年指标。结果显示，最好的预测指标是情绪，其次是孩子的行为，最后才是智商。我们在这个方面有些本末倒置了。我们过于专注于在三岁左右才开始发展的执行功能。而实际上，我想说的是，我们人格的整个基础是在子宫内就开始发展的，然后通过第二和第三年，甚至与父亲的互动等等。这才是我们应该投入资金的地方，资金的投入是为了提供时间。其他文化都已经明白了这一点。联合国儿童基金会在2021年对36个富裕国家进行了调查，我们在儿童情感和福祉方面排名最后。这真是一种耻辱。不过，值得称赞的是，你们正在强调这些问题，许多人正在听到这个信息。我鼓励每一个听到的人认真考虑Dr. Shor所分享的重要性排序，智商排在第三，情绪调节第一，其次是行为。
So the idea that we need to train our kids up as little memorizing computers is clearly the wrong idea. Clearly, there's important information that needs to be committed to memory, to be a functional human being, but that we're missing not just critical knowledge transfer, but critical emotional transfer. Yeah. And for that reason, and for so many other reasons, I really want to thank you for coming in today and having this conversation. It's unlike any conversation I've had on this podcast for several reasons, not the least of which is that you have this incredible knowledge of the neurobiology, which for me is a delight and I'm sure for the listeners too, but also the clinical experience, which is so rich. And it's clear you've also done your own work in exploring these ideas. And you've been here for and participated in the evolution of this whole right brain, left brain thing, the advent of neuroimaging and how that's really shed new light. And I just love, love, love the way that you you braid all this together in terms of actionable things with patient and therapist, but also just in terms of one's understanding of self. I'm certain people are going to take this knowledge into their lives and into the world and it's been really enriching for me and I'm certain it's going to be immensely enriching for them.
所以，把我们的孩子培养成小小的“记忆机器”显然是错误的想法。诚然，确实有一些重要的信息需要记住，以便成为一个有功能的人。但我们不仅缺少重要的知识传递，还缺少关键的情感传递。正因为如此，以及许多其他原因，我真的很感谢你今天来参加这个对话。这次谈话与我在这个播客中的任何一次都不同，有几个原因，其中之一就是你在神经生物学方面有着令人惊叹的知识，这对我来说是一种享受，我相信对听众也是如此。同时，你也有非常丰富的临床经验。显然，你也在探索这些想法方面做了很多自己的工作。你一直参与并见证了整个右脑、左脑理论的发展，神经成像的出现，以及它如何真正带给我们新的启示。我特别喜欢你把这一切与病人和治疗师的实际应用、以及对自我理解结合在一起的方式。我相信人们会把这些知识应用到自己的生活和世界中，这对我来说是非常有益的，我肯定对他们而言也将是极其有益的。
So thank you for the work you do. Thank you for taking the time to come here today. And I'm excited about your new book. So keep us informed as to when that comes out. Maybe we'll have you back on for another discussion if you're willing. And just, you know, just thank you so much for entering this left brain, right brain dance and dynamic. It's been thoroughly enjoyable. Absolutely. Pleasure for me too, Andrew. Absolutely pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alan Schor. To learn more about his work and to find links to his books, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. Another terrific zero-cost way to support us is to follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by Presale at ProtocolsBook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook and Threads. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as brief one to three page PDFs that cover protocols for things like deliberate heat exposure, deliberate cold exposure. There's a protocol for managing your dopamine. There's a protocol for optimizing your sleep for neuroplasticity and learning and much more. To sign up for the newsletter, simply go to HubermanLab.com. There you provide your email. I'd like to emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. And as I mentioned before, the newsletter is completely zero cost. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alan Schor. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
感谢您所做的工作，也感谢您今天抽出时间来到这里。我对您即将出版的新书感到很兴奋。请随时通知我们新书的出版进展，如果您愿意，我们可以再请您来进行一次讨论。非常感谢您参与这场左右脑的交流和互动，真是非常愉快。对我来说也是一种乐趣，非常感谢，Andrew。非常感谢您参加今天与Dr. Alan Schor的讨论。要了解更多关于他工作的内容并获得他的书籍链接，请参阅节目说明中的链接。如果您在学习或者喜欢这个播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道，这是一种无需付费就可以支持我们的绝佳方式。另一个无需付费的支持方式是在Spotify和Apple上关注这个播客。在这两个平台上，您都可以给我们留下最高五颗星的评价。请也查看在本期节目开始和过程中提到的赞助商，这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
如果您有问题或者对播客、嘉宾或希望我在Huberman实验室播客中探讨的主题有任何建议，请在YouTube的评论区留下。我会阅读所有的评论。对于那些还不知道的人，我有一本新书要出版了，这是我出版的第一本书，书名叫《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》。我花了五年以上的时间写作这本书，这本书基于我三十多年的研究和经验，包含了从睡眠、运动到压力管理、专注和动力的控制方案。当然，我在书中为包含的方案提供了科学依据。这本书现在可以在ProtocolsBook.com进行预售，在那里您可以找到各种销售商的链接，挑选您最喜欢的一家。书名是《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》。
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是Huberman Lab，比如Instagram、X（前身为Twitter）、LinkedIn、Facebook和Threads。在这些平台上，我讨论科学和基于科学的工具，其中有一些与Huberman实验室播客的内容重叠，但大部分内容是Huberman实验室播客中没有涉及的。
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，神经网络通讯是一份无需付费的月刊，涵盖播客摘要，以及简短的1到3页PDF内容，涉及有意识的热暴露、有意识的冷暴露管理、多巴胺管理、优化睡眠以促进神经可塑性和学习等多种方案。要订阅通讯，只需访问HubermanLab.com，提供您的电子邮件即可。我想强调，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件，正如之前提到的，这份通讯完全免费。再次感谢您参加今天与Dr. Alan Schor的讨论，最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的关注与兴趣。