Disney-Pixar vs Dreamworks | 'To Infinity and Beyond' | 5
发布时间 2023-03-15 15:01:00 来源
摘要
We’re going behind the scenes of your favorite Disney animated movies with Andrew Millstein, former president of Disney Animation. He helped lead the company’s transition to 3D computer animation, working on some of Disney’s biggest hits of the 2010s — Frozen, Tangled, and Zootopia, to name a few. Later, Polygon reporter Petrana Radulovic dissects DreamWorks, whose edgy animated films have become cult classics. Petrana also shares what’s new in animation online and around the world.Binge all episodes early and ad-free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App https://wondery.app.link/businesswars.Support us by supporting our sponsor!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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中英文字稿 
I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars.
我叫David Brown，这里是商业战争（Business Wars）。
Even if you've been living in an igloo, there's a good chance you've heard this song. And if you have little ones, you've probably heard it over and over and over. But there's a good reason for that. Frozen was the biggest Disney animation hit in years and helped the studio seize the spotlight for a new generation of viewers.
即使你一直生活在冰屋里，还是有很大的可能已经听过这首歌。如果你有孩子，你可能一遍又一遍地听过它。但这是有很好的原因的。《冰雪奇缘》是多年来迪士尼动画片最成功的作品，帮助这家工作室赢得了新一代观众的关注。
In this episode, we're talking with one of the folks who made that happen. Andrew Milstein is the former president of Disney Animation Studios. He helped solidify the company's transition from traditional hand drawn animation into computer generated animation in the 2010s. You might recognize his name from the last episode of our season. Or perhaps from the credits of some of your favorite Disney animated films, including Tangle, Zootopia, Big Hero 6, among others.
在本集中，我们与其中一位推动这一成就的人进行了交谈。安德鲁·米尔斯汀曾是迪士尼动画工作室的前总裁。他协助巩固了公司从传统手绘动画向计算机生成动画的转变，这发生在2010年代。您可能会在本赛季的上一集中认识他的名字。或者也可能从您最喜爱的迪士尼动画电影，包括《长发公主》、《疯狂动物城》、《超人特工队》等片的片尾字幕中认出他的名字。
Later on, Entertainment Journalist Patrona Radalovic, show Polygon, joins us to unpack Dreamworks, one of Disney's major rivals, whose edgy animated films have become cult classics. She'll also bring us up to speed on what's new in the animation world today. All that's coming up next.
接下来，我们还要请娱乐记者帕特罗娜·拉达洛维奇来为我们揭开梦工厂的神秘面纱。梦工厂是迪士尼的主要竞争对手之一，其非传统的动画电影已经成为了文化经典。她也将告诉我们动画世界今天的最新进展。敬请关注。
Hi, I'm Sarah Haggi, co-host of Wonderree's podcast, Scample Insurs. In our recent two-part series, Three Weddings and a Funeral, we dive into the story of a German con man who built an entire life on fake names, lies, and schemes. And the unlikely true-kind twist that brought this decades-long charade crashing down. Listen to Scample Insurs on Amazon Music or ever you get your podcasts.
嗨，我是Wonderree播客《Scample Insurs》的联合主持人Sarah Haggi。在我们最近的两集系列《三个婚礼和一场葬礼》中，我们深入讨论了一个德国骗子是如何以虚假的名字、谎言和计划建立整个生命的。还有这个数十年的骗局被带到了令人意想不到的真正结局。可以在Amazon Music或是任何你喜欢听的播客平台上收听Scample Insurs。
Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. Let's go behind the scenes of Disney animation, so-called Second Coming, with someone who helps steer the rebirth. Andrew Milstein, welcome to Business Wars.
嘿，欢迎回到商业战争。让我们跟随一位协助推动"第二次来临"的迪士尼动画复兴的人，走进幕后。安德鲁·米尔斯坦，欢迎来到商业战争。
Nice to be here. David, thank you.
很高兴在这里。David，谢谢你。
Tell us how you got involved with Disney in the first place.
请告诉我们您是如何最初与迪士尼公司接触的。
Well, it goes all the way back to my days at Digital Domain. In fact, when we were making a big theme park project for Universal, called Terminator 2 3D, and our client at Universal was a fantastic savvy guy named Art Repola. And he left Universal and went to Disney. And when would this have been like in the mid-90s?
嗯，这与我在Digital Domain的那些日子有关。实际上，当我们为环球制作一项名为《终结者2 3D》的大型主题公园项目时，我们的客户是一个非常聪明的家伙Art Repola。他离开了环球，去了迪士尼。这可能是在90年代中期吧？
That's right. And he moved over from Universal to Disney and then invited me over. And I had the good fortune of the invitation and jumped in.
没错。他从环球影业换去了迪士尼，然后邀请我去那边。我非常幸运得到邀请并加入其中。
Do you ever think you'd be working for the mouse house?
你曾经想过自己会在那只老鼠的家里工作吗？
You know, it's not specifically as a kid from Jersey without any family in the entertainment business. It was first a big trip cross country, 3,000 miles, and then figuring out how you were going to get in. But it all worked out well.
你知道的，我在新泽西的时候并没有任何与娱乐业相关的家族背景。首先是一个横跨全国的大旅程，有 3000 英里远，之后得想办法如何进入娱乐圈。不过最后一切都进展得很好。
You mentioned you were with Digital Domain before you came to Disney in Digital Domain. Wasn't that James Cameron's company? Were you working on Titanic at the time and all that?
你提到你在来到迪士尼之前在Digital Domain工作过。那不就是詹姆斯·卡梅隆的公司吗？那时候你是在做《泰坦尼克号》之类的工作吗？
I was. That's exactly right. Digital Domain was founded by James Cameron, the late Stan Winston, a brilliant filmmaker, and a gentleman by the name of Scott Ross, who had been a general manager and top management at Industrial Light and Magic, Slash Lucasfilm. And then I think in partnership with IBM, they founded a new company called Digital Domain for visual effects right at the intersection of when digital tools were becoming just more prolific and powerful at a time when we're moving into digital compositing, heavy 3D models, animation, at the same time there were still physical effects, models, and miniatures. So it was a really robust moment for filmmaking and all these new tool suites.
我可是听过这件事的。数字领域是由詹姆斯·卡梅隆，已故的斯坦·温斯顿，一个才华横溢的电影制作人，以及一个名叫斯科特·罗斯的绅士共同创立的。罗斯曾在工业光魔和卢卡斯影业担任高管。之后，他们与IBM合作，创立了一个名为数字领域的新公司，专门从事视觉效果制作，正好处在数字工具变得更加普及和强大的交汇点上。这时正是我们进入数字合成，制作复杂的三维模型和动画的时代，与此同时，物理效果、模型和微缩模型仍然存在。因此，这是电影制作的一个非常充实的时刻，所有这些新的工具套件都纷纷问世。
Well how did that experience prepare you for what you encountered at Disney? Did you feel like this was the next progression moving toward animation?
那个经历是如何让你为在迪士尼遇到的事情做好准备的呢？你有没有觉得这是朝着动画的下一个发展方向前进的呢？
At Digital Domain, I was at the forefront working hand in hand with the artists and the technologists and the senior management there of using evolving digital tools and technology for image making and storytelling. So that when I came into Disney and Disney animation proper, it was at a moment in time where Disney and Disney animation was starting to evolve from its hand-drawn legacy and its expertise in hand-drawn animation to embracing new tools and new technology. For the experience at Digital Domain really prepared me for the conversations about how to move in a different direction within Disney.
在Digital Domain，我身处前沿，与艺术家、技术人员和高级管理层密切合作，利用不断发展的数字工具和技术进行形象制作和讲故事。因此，当我进入迪士尼和迪士尼动画公司时，正值迪士尼和迪士尼动画公司开始从手绘遗产和手绘动画专业知识融入新工具和新技术的时刻。由于我在Digital Domain的经历，为我在迪士尼内部的不同方向转变的讨论提供了准备。
So did you just walk into a culture clash? You mentioned this as a pivotal moment it sounds like where you're moving away from old school animation and the processes to something that must have been, I think probably for many animators considered a bit of a challenge to say the least.
那么，你是遇到了文化冲突吗？你提到这是一个关键时刻，似乎你正在从老派动画和传统工艺中走向一些对很多动画师来说都是至少有点挑战性的东西。
There was definitely not an environment where one size fits all. There was a show released in 2000 called Dinosaur. My name's Aladar. This is my family. We're all at its left. Oh my dear, I'm so sorry. Bayleens the last of her kind. And Dinosaur was, you know, had full digital characters but used all these photographic plates. There was a combination, it was like a live action visual effects movie in the sense that there was all the photographic plates but also hardcore CG digital animation.
肯定不存在一个适合所有人的环境。2000年有一部叫做《恐龙》的节目。我的名字是阿拉达。这是我的家人，我们都在它的左边。哦，亲爱的，非常抱歉。拜林是她们种族中的最后一只。恐龙这部影片，你知道，有完全数字的角色，但使用所有这些照片板。这是一种组合，就像一部实景特效电影，因为有所有的照片板，但也有强硬的CG数字动画。
And this was all happening at a time when there were still 2D movies being made and where there was all the success that Pixar had. So from an artistic perspective, a technological perspective, you know, from an audience perspective, you know, there was multiple things happening simultaneously. And like within a studio, there was a huge cross-section and spectrum of different artists who had different expertise.
这一切都发生在2D电影仍在制作并且Pixar大获成功的时候。因此，从艺术、技术和观众的角度来看，有多种事情同时发生。就像在一个工作室里，有许多不同专业领域的艺术家们，他们拥有各自不同的技能。
Some were, you know, fantastic and had a career in history and hand-drawn animation. There were others who were involved in Dinosaur who had, you know, experience in making 3D animation. There was technology group that was there supporting both, you know, the technology behind the 2D animation as well as the evolving tools and tech. So there was really kind of an environment that I wouldn't know if it was necessarily a culture class but there were just different ideas within the studio.
有一些人，你知道的，他们在历史和手绘动画领域拥有出色的职业生涯。有些人在恐龙电影制作中有经验，你知道的，他们是3D动画的专家。还有一些技术团队在现场支持，他们不仅支持2D动画背后的技术，还不断推动着工具和科技的发展。所以，工作室内真的有一种环境，虽然不知道是否可以称之为文化之争，但工作室内的思想碰撞是十分多样的。
And you know, part of the trick, part of the fun was actually listening, supporting all the artists in different ways and then also evolving the studio as alienly as possible. I want to go back to a moment back in 2005, was before Disney purchased Pixar, had a new CEO, Bob Eiger, and he was considering shutting down the animation division altogether. I learned about this through the researchers for this series and we talk about it in this series.
你知道的，其中一部分诀窍、一部分快乐，实际上就是聆听，以不同方式支持所有艺术家，同时尽可能异类地发展工作室。我想回到2005年的一个时刻，当时迪士尼还没有收购皮克斯，公司新任CEO鲍勃·艾格正考虑关闭动画部门。我是通过这个系列的研究者了解到这件事情的，并且我们在这个系列中谈论了它。
What was it like being at the company during those make or break conversations? I think it's exciting. I mean, it's scary on one hand. Yeah. I would think so. It's incredibly scary. You're thankful for the things that you don't know, that you don't know. But you also know that at that point in time there was a lot of pressure.
在那些关键的讨论时，你在公司感受如何？我觉得很刺激。我的意思是，一方面很害怕。是的，我觉得是这样的。非常可怕。你感激自己不知道的事情。但同时，你也知道那个时候压力很大。
You think about the reason why Pixar was acquired. The reason why the Pixar management took over the management of Disney animation. It wasn't because Disney animation was doing well. It was because we needed a new way of thinking about the work that we make, the stories that we tell, the way that we do it. So I feel at some level, yes, you could argue that maybe the division was on thin ice, but on the other hand, you have nowhere to go but up. So we worked, we were everyone really kind of put their hand on their or and did everything to row in the same direction and really elevate the studio as a whole.
你考虑一下为什么皮克斯被收购了，为什么皮克斯管理层接管了迪士尼动画的管理。不是迪士尼动画做得很好，而是因为我们需要一种新的思考方式来处理我们制作的作品、讲述的故事和工作的方式。所以我认为，在某种程度上，你可以说也许该部门处于危险之中，但另一方面，你只有往上走的路。因此，我们努力工作，每个人都竭尽全力向同一个方向划船，真正提升整个工作室的水平。
You know, your old boss, Ed Catmull, is a big player in our season of business wars. You know, Disney Pixar versus Dreamworks. What was it like to work with him? Working with Ed Catmull was a joy at every level. Having gone through all the years of working with Ed, he's a friend. He was a fantastic leader. He also came to Disney at a point in time when there was tremendous success at Pixar. So when there was an intersection between Disney and Pixar more formally after the acquisition of Pixar, you know, Ed and John Lasseter and the filmmakers there and their management there was incredibly generous with sharing the lessons from Pixar in terms of their evolution, how they thought about the creative process, how they thought about storytelling, how they thought about things like the brain trust or the story trust, the intersection of technology and art, Ed and his team pulled the curtain back from when they created Toy Story and continue with that in a bug's life and Toy Story 3 and Monsters Incorporated.
你知道吗，你的前老板Ed Catmull是我们这场商业战争中的重要人物，迪士尼皮克斯对战梦工厂。能跟他一起工作是怎么样的？和Ed Catmull一起工作是非常愉快的。跟他合作了这么多年，他不仅是我的同事，也是我的朋友。他是一位出色的领导者。在Pixar取得了巨大成功后，他来到了迪士尼。当迪士尼正式收购Pixar后，他和John Lasseter以及那里的电影制片人和管理团队非常慷慨地分享了Pixar的经验，包括他们的发展历程、他们如何思考创意过程、故事讲述方式，以及脑力信托或故事信托等方面的知识，还有技术和艺术的结合方式。Ed和他的团队向我们展示了制作《玩具总动员》、《虫虫危机》、《玩具总动员3》和《怪兽电力公司》的幕后故事。
You know, every time they made a movie, there was all the lessons that you learned and the formal post mortems that they would engage in to really kind of distill down what you could learn and how you could apply it. So at a sense, you had Disney animation with a fantastic legacy of storytelling and success at a point in time where it was necessary to evolve, you know, from its 2D springboard into 3D computer graphics, computer animation.
你知道，每次制作电影时，都有所学到的教训和正式的事后总结，以真正将你可以学到的内容提炼出来，并思考应该如何应用它。因此，从一定意义上说，在必须进化从2D跳板进入3D计算机图形和计算机动画的时候，迪士尼动画具有引人入胜的故事叙述和成功的遗产。
When you use 3D, that particular animation style, is that more an aesthetic thing or does it actually play a role in how you tell the story? I think it's both. I think that it does have a role in the way that you tell the story. I mean, if you imagine walking into a room and you can turn your head in any direction and you can have a different perspective on what you see, you can kind of move in space from, you know, the foreground to the middle ground to the background, you can tilt up, you can tilt down. It's aesthetic on one hand, but it's also the literal 3D environment that you're creating.
当你使用3D技术进行动画制作时，这是更多的美学问题还是它真正在讲述故事中发挥了作用？我认为两者都有。我认为它确实在你讲述故事的方式中扮演了一个角色。我的意思是，如果你想象一下走进一个房间，你可以朝任何方向转头并且可以对你所看到的有不同的视角，你可以在空间中移动，从前景到中景再到背景，你可以向上或向下倾斜。它一方面是美学问题，但也确实是你正在创造的真实的3D环境。
Frozen and Frozen 2 have gone down in the books as some of the highest grossing animated films of all time, of course. You were leading Disney animation when the franchise started. At what point did you realize you had a smash hit on your hands? You really honestly don't know.
《冰雪奇缘》和《冰雪奇缘2》成为历史上票房最高的动画电影之一，当然是有史以来最高。当这个系列开始时，您正在领导迪士尼动画。您在什么时候意识到自己手上有一个非常成功的热门作品？你真的不知道。
You work incredibly hard, passionately, diligently on all the films, some that perform better than others. With Frozen, you know, the entire studio, you know, the artists that were working on it, the directors, the producers, the story artists, the animators knew that there was something very special, but it really started to come together toward the end, you know, when the souffle, so to speak, rises at the end, you knew that we had something really special with respect to the characters. Oh, I don't know why, but I always love the idea of summer and sun and of the high. Really? I'm guessing you don't have much experience with heat. Nope.
你在所有电影中都非常勤奋、热情和努力工作，虽然有些电影的表现比其他电影更好。对于《冰雪奇缘》，整个工作室里的艺术家、导演、制片人、故事创作人和动画师都知道这部电影非常特别，但是直到最后，也就是 souffle（法式蛋奶沙司蛋糕）膨胀的时候，一切才真正开始成型。你知道我们制作的角色非常特别。噢，我不知道为什么，但我总是喜欢夏天和阳光的想法。真的吗？我猜你没有多少炎热的经历。没有的。
The music, the writing, you know, the animation, it just really started to work. But I don't think it was until the release of the film when you just, you got all the feedback from the audience, the repeat viewings that you, we knew that we had something really, really, really special on our hands and hit like a title wave.
音乐、写作、动画，你知道的，这些内容真的开始运转了。但我认为直到电影上映并听取了观众的反馈、反复观看后，我们才知道我们手头拥有一些非常、非常、非常特别的东西，就像海啸一样地冲击过来。
Why do you think it was so successful? I mean, obviously, you had every kid in the country and their parents singing let it go. So you had a literal musical hit on your hands in a sense, but what do you think was the thing that made that extra special?
你认为为什么它如此成功？我的意思是，显然，你让全国的孩子和他们的父母都唱了《Let it go》。所以从某种意义上说，你手头上有了一首真正的音乐大热门，但你认为是什么让它变得更加特别？
I don't know if there's one thing that you can point to. I think that there was the accessibility of the story itself, you know, at some level, a return to these beautiful Disney fairy tales. And you know, I think that resonated for audiences globally and here you had a movie that was accessible to people that harkened back potentially to another era of Disney storytelling, coupled with, you know, fantastic computer generated imagery, beautiful, beautiful imagery.
我不知道有没有一件事情可以指出来。我认为故事本身的可接受性是一个重要原因，你知道，在某种程度上，它是回到了美丽的迪士尼童话故事。你知道，我觉得这在全球观众中产生了共鸣，这里有一部电影可以让人们轻易地想起迪士尼以前那个关于故事讲述的时代，再加上惊人的计算机生成图像，美丽、美丽的图像。
So the story was realized in a way that was, you know, both intimate and had fantastic spectacle. And on top of that, as you pointed out, you had music that was just, you know, people couldn't get enough of. And then I think it also dovetailed with all of the, you know, the content that viewers create, you know, it was at a, you know, it's pre-tick talk. And people just ate it up and were performing it and sharing it. And you know, it just went viral in that way. It was fun. It was emotional. It was beautiful. And it felt good at every level.
所以这个故事以一种既亲密又拥有令人惊叹的壮观方式得以实现。而且，正如你所指出的，这里有人们根本无法满足的音乐。而且，我认为它也与所有观众创建的内容相呼应，当时还没有抖音。人们只是狂热地消费和分享它。你知道，它就这样走红了。它很有趣，很感人，很美丽，每个层面都感觉良好。
This is great stuff. And for anyone who loves animation, you got to stick around our guest is Andrew Milstein, an animation executive who championed some of Disney's earliest CG works. We're going to have more on animation's legacy when business wars continues right after this.
这真是太棒了。对于喜欢动画的人来说，你一定要留在这里，我们的特别嘉宾是安德鲁·米尔斯坦，他是一位动画执行制片人，曾经为迪士尼的最早的计算机生成作品发声。继续收听商业战争后，我们会更多地了解动画的历史。
It's the fall of 2017 in Rancho Tejama, California. A man and his wife are driving to a doctor's appointment when another car crashes into them, sending them flying off the road. Disoriented, they stumble out of the car only to hear dozens of gunshots whizzing past them. This is just one chapter of a much larger nightmare unraveling in their small town. This is actually happening, presents a special limited series called Point Blank, shedding a light on the forgotten spree killings of Rancho Tejama, where a lone gunman devastated a small town, attacking eight different locations in the span of only 25 minutes.
在2017年秋天，加州特哈马牧场发生了一件事情。一对夫妇正在开车前往医生的约会，突然被一辆车撞上，车子失控飞出公路。他们非常迷茫，一走出车门就听到无数枪声从身边呼啸而过。这只是他们所在小镇一段更为可怕的噩梦中的一个章节。实际上发生了这种情况，现在呈现给大家的是一档特别的有限系列节目，名为《究竟是什么原因》，通过聚焦特哈马牧场借机犯罪的那名凶手在短短25分钟内袭击了八个不同的场所，这次遗忘的连环杀戮事件终于得到了曝光。
The series follows five stories of people connected to the incident, from a father that drew the gunman away from a local school to the sister of the shooter. These are riveting stories that will stick with you long after you listen. Follow this is actually happening wherever you listen to podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app.
这个系列讲述了五个与此事件有关的人的故事，包括一个把枪手引开当地学校的父亲，以及枪手的姐姐。这些引人入胜的故事会在你的听后久久停留在你的心中。无论你在哪里收听，都可以关注这个真实事件的发展。你可以在 Amazon Music 或 Wondery 应用程序上免费无广告收听。
Welcome back to Business Wars. Our guest is Andrew Milstein. He currently co-leads the animation division at Anna Perna Pictures with his longtime creative partner Rob Baird. But before that, he was running Disney animation during its transition to CG films.
欢迎回到Business Wars。我们的嘉宾是安德鲁·米尔斯坦。他目前与他的长期创意伙伴罗布·贝尔德共同领导安娜·佩尔纳影业的动画部门。但在此之前，他曾在迪士尼动画公司运作过，当时正在向CG动画电影转型。
Andrew, I encountered the Princess and the Frog about two or three years after its release because my daughter was born in 2009 and it was one of the things that we had to go see and it became a constant on the DVD player in the car, all that kind of stuff. And I loved it. Of course, I was listening to the audio portion primarily as I was driving, but there was something that I felt that magic, but it didn't seem to have the kind of magic at the box office that certainly frozen it. You were in that post-mortem meeting I would imagine. What did y'all talk about and what were your thoughts about the Princess and the Frog?
安德鲁，我是在2009年女儿出生大约两三年后才接触到《公主与青蛙》的，因为我们必须去看它，而且它成为了车上DVD播放器的常客，所有那种东西。我非常喜欢它。当然，我主要是在开车的时候听音频部分，但是我感受到了那种魔力，但它似乎并没有像《冰雪奇缘》那样在票房上表现出那种魔力。我想你参加了那次事后评估会议。你们谈了什么？你对《公主与青蛙》有什么想法？
Well, I'm with you. I think from a story perspective and creatively, it really worked. But you have to look at it through the lens of when a film is released, will it get the kind of attention that it deserves, both from critics, from the audiences in terms of the competitive landscape?
嗯，我同意你的想法。从故事和创意的角度来看，这个想法实际上很不错。但是，当我们考虑这个电影发布的时间点时，必须注意到它是否会得到应有的关注，无论是从评论家还是观众的角度来看，尤其是在竞争激烈的市场中。
Now that's part of it. Also, I think I would be remiss not saying that the Princess and the Frog released in 2009 came at a point in time when there were many very successful CG films that were already released on the Cusp of Toy Story 3, up, Bought, Wally, Radatouille, Finding Nemo.. So there was already in the zeitgeist. And that's excluding other studios that were making films like Dreamworks, Shrek and Ant and Shrek 2 and Metagascar and Shrek 3 and Kung Fu Panda, tremendous amount of very successful movies that dominated the cultural landscape that were made with CGI in a 3D digital animation.
那是其中一部分。此外，我认为如果不说一下2009年发行的《公主与青蛙》，就会失职。那个时候，在《玩具总动员3》、《飞屋环游记》、《机器人总动员》、《海底总动员》等许多非常成功的CG电影已经发布，因此已经融入了时代精神。这还不算其他制片厂也在制作像梦工厂的《怪物史莱克》、《昆虫总动员》、《马达加斯加》、《怪物史莱克2》、《功夫熊猫》等非常成功的电影，这些电影都是用3D数字动画制作的，占据了文化景观的主导地位。
So the movie was also released in the context where there was a set of audience expectations that were already being established. And we should note here that Princess and the Frog was not one of those films with the advanced CGI and all of that stuff, right? This was, in fact, this is one of the last hand-drawn features Disney would do for a while.
所以电影是在已经形成了一系列观众期望的背景下发布的。我们应该注意到，“公主与青蛙”不是那些具有先进的3D动画技术等所有东西的电影之一，对吗？事实上，这是迪士尼在一段时间内制作的最后一部手绘特色电影。
This is true. You know, that's exactly right. Do you think that that's that cost the film a bit? Because, and maybe this gets to my front seat experience because listening to it as a story I found it enchanting. But of course, you know, it's one thing to follow the story's audio. It's quite another to deal with those expectations, which it sounds like you might think were, had been recalibrated over the years.
这是真的。你知道，那完全正确。你觉得这会让电影付出一些代价吗？因为，也许这和我的坐在前排的经验有关，因为我发现它作为一个故事听起来很迷人。但当然，跟随故事的音频是一回事，处理那些期望则完全不同，听起来你可能觉得它们在这些年里已经被重新校准了。
And I think that's right. And I would also say that you experienced it as a parent, right? And you really have to work across all quadrants, if you will, to be, you know, have that breakout success. So many younger people, you know, were experiencing animation as CG digital animation. And then so here's a project that comes out at that time that's hand-drawn and may have harkened back to another era for people.
我认为那是正确的。而且，作为一个父母，你也经历过这个，对吗？如果你想要取得突破性的成功，你真的必须跨越所有象限。很多年轻人，他们所经历的动画都是CG数字动画。然后，在这个时期，出现了一个手绘的项目，可能会让人们回想起另一个时代。
Do you think that that the success of the performance of that movie in a sense that it was the end of an era, perhaps, for hand-drawn features of Disney? You know, the thing to realize is that what Disney makes or what other studios make, you know, depends on the art, just the creative energy around those projects. And you know, the artists also were wanting to learn, wanting to experiment within a different medium, and there was a lot of energy, creative energy around that. You know, the storytellers also wanted to, you know, explore stories told in CG.
你认为那部电影的成功在某种程度上是迪士尼手绘特效电影的终结吗？要知道，迪士尼或其他工作室制作的作品，实际上取决于艺术，取决于这些项目周围的创造性能量。而且，艺术家们也想要学习、尝试不同的媒介，他们身上也存在着很多能量和创作热情。另外，故事讲述者们也希望能够在CG中探索更多的故事。
So I think it was, it was many different things. And then I do think as, you know, as you suggest, there was a commitment to the evolution to full CG, you know, post-Princess and the frog.
我认为这是许多不同的事情。正如您所建议的那样，从《公主与青蛙》之后，我们有一个全面实施计算机图形的承诺。
I gather you were something of a champion at Disney for this, for this change. How were you so certain that this was the future? Well, I think it's, again, looking backwards, you could see the impact that the computer-animated films had, you know, on the cultural landscape, you know, the way that the audiences were gobbling up those films. And then also it was about the, you know, what the storytellers, what medium they wanted to work in as well. So you know, they too were interested in, you know, really kind of exploring computer animation and storytelling with the tools of computer animation.
我了解到您在为这个改变而在迪士尼中成为一位冠军。您如何确信这是未来？嗯，我认为，回头看，您可以看到计算机动画电影对文化景观的影响，观众热衷这些电影的方式。另外，这也涉及到故事讲述者们想要使用的媒介。所以，他们也对真正探索计算机动画和计算机动画工具进行故事讲述很感兴趣。
Was there any sort of sense of wistfulness about moving into this new era? I know you described the excitement and the sense of everyone sort of wanting to move into this, you know, new realm and seeing this as the future. But you know, this was a company that was built on a tradition that had morphed through the years. And I'm curious if there was this sort of a bittersweet sense.
进入这个新时代时是否有一种惆怅的感觉呢？我知道你描述了兴奋和所有人都想进入这个新领域的感觉，视之为未来。但是，这是一家建立在通过多年起伏形成的传统基础上的公司。我好奇是否还有这种苦涩的感觉。
You know, anybody who's been in this industry long enough knows that there's, there's cycles. And you know, Disney animation is coming up on its 100 year anniversary. And there's been ups and there's been downs.. And you know, one of the constants has been reinvention and figuring out how to stay culturally relevant. So how to get, you know, bring in the best storytellers, the best artists, the best people in technology. So this was one of those phases, I think in the moment, of course, there is a wistfulness. Oh, it would be better if we didn't have to go through this. That's true. But on the other hand, having to go through it makes you stronger and it forces you to adapt and evolve. And I think it's bittersweet, you know, it's, I wish we didn't have to do it, but we're going to do it and get on with it. And that's what happened.
你知道，任何在这个行业待久了的人都知道，这里有着循环周期。迪士尼动画即将迎来他们的100周年纪念。历经了起起落落，但其中一个不变的是不断创新，找到保持文化相关性的方法，吸纳最优秀的讲故事者、艺术家和科技人才。这是其中一个阶段，在当下或许会感到惋惜，觉得如果能不经这样就更好了。这是对的。但另一方面，经历这些只会让你更坚强，并且迫使你适应和演变。我认为这是甜酸苦辣的，我希望我们不需要这样做，但我们会做并继续前进。这就是所发生的事情。
Well, I guess in a way, because from the consumers, from this side of the screen, if you will, I think there's so much sentimentality that people invest in this. You know, you think about all the animated films that we both grew up with and some of the ones that we got to see later that were just fantastic and that were made before our time.
嗯，我想从消费者的角度来看，说实话，在这一屏幕的这一侧，人们对此投入了很多感情。你知道，想想我们一起长大的所有动画电影，还有我们后来看到的一些非常棒的电影，那些作品都是在我们出生之前就制作的。
You know, when you think about that whole catalog of animated films, do you have an old time favorite? And all time favorite. It's hard for me to just popped into your head when I said, when I said that, you know, I look at going way back to Dumball and Pinocchio and I, you know, there's contemporary modern films, the films that we've worked on that, you know, each whole special place for me in terms of, you know, what it's taken to make them. And, you know, just the emotional attachment you have to those films. It's honestly very hard for me to say, do I have, you know, a favorite? They all mean something a little different to me, especially the ones that I've been involved with over my career.
你知道吗，当你想到那些动画片的目录时，你有没有一部特别喜欢的？一直以来最喜欢的。当我说到这个的时候，有没有一部电影突然浮现在你的脑海中呢？你知道的，我想起了《小木偶奇遇记》和《木头人皮诺奇》，还有现代的电影，我们曾经工作过的电影，它们对我来说都有特别的意义，因为制作它们需要付出很多。而且，你与这些电影之间的情感纽带也非常重要。说实话，对我来说很难选择一个最喜欢的电影，因为它们都对我有着不同的意义，尤其是我在职业生涯中涉足的那些电影。
Well, I'm just going to jump out there and say that I have a certain feeling for Mary Poppins. And probably this has to do with when you grow up and what you're exposed to at a certain age. But I also think that that was a turning point in its own way back in the 60s where you have this mix of, you know, live action and animation. And that was a big deal. And yet you talk to some film critics and they'll say, well, Fantasia, you know, that was once upon a time the gold standard.
好吧，我要说，我对玛丽·波普因斯有一种特殊的感觉。可能这和你成长时接触到的东西有关。但我认为，在20世纪60年代，这也是一个转折点，它将真人和动画混合在一起。那是很重要的事情。然而，你和一些电影评论家交谈，他们会说，好吧，幻想狂想曲，你知道，那曾经是金标准。
What would you consider to be the gold standard now? Is it still Fantasia or is it something else? Oh, that's a fantastic question. Again, it's hard to take yourself out of the process, you know, with respect to what did it take to make? What is the story? You know, where did you land with this story? And then also what does this, you know, what does the film look like? What are the tricks of the trade? What are the tools and the technology? You know, what is the spectacle in that film? So in my mind, the gold standard evolves as we continue to evolve as an industry or if you look at a company like Walt Disney Animation or if you look at a place like Pixar, it's constantly evolving. It's hard for me to extract and say, oh, that film is the gold standard. I mean, you could look at Toy Story, for example. And you say, you know, that was like a meteor that hit with respect to the storytelling itself, the advent of the new technology, the use of that technology, creating a perspective, creating a world and a characters in that world and a story in that world. If you looked at that film today, you know, it would look like a movie from 1995. But yet, I think it was the impetus of a new era.
你现在会认为什么是黄金标准呢？还是Fantasia或者其他什么吗？哦，这是一个非常棒的问题。对我来说，很难不把自己从这个过程中剥离出来，你知道，这需要做哪些事情？这个故事是什么？你知道，你对这个故事的理解是什么？然后，还有这部电影是什么样的？它使用了哪些技巧和技术？你知道，这部电影具有哪些壮观的场面呢？所以，在我看来，黄金标准随着我们作为一个产业不断发展而不断改变，或者如果你看看像华特·迪士尼动画这样的公司，或是像Pixar这样的地方，它们也在不断发展。对我来说，很难提取出一部电影说，哦，这部电影就是黄金标准。比如，我们可以看看《玩具总动员》，你可以说，这就像是一颗流星撞击了——在故事叙述方面，引入了新技术，使用这些技术，创造了一个世界、一个角色和这个世界里的故事。如果你现在看那部电影，你会发现它看起来像是1995年的电影。但是我认为它是新时代的开端。
Yeah. Well, it seems like we're still seeing a kind of 2D style and a lot of animated, say, TV shows, even though it's all created, obviously, through digital means. But it's happening a lot on streaming services. And I'm sort of wondering, is that because of cost constraints or do you think that that style may be having a kind of revival? What is the state of that sort of hand drawn animation look today, as you see?
嗯，似乎我们在很多动画电视节目中仍然看到一种二维风格，虽然显然都是通过数字手段创作的。但这种风格在流媒体服务中很常见。我在想，是因为成本的限制，还是因为这种风格可能正在复兴？你认为手绘动画在当今的状态如何？
I think it's a combination of things. You know, streaming ultimately, I think it's given more opportunities to storytellers. There's more places for people to go to tell and make their stories. And I think ultimately, you know, that can be good for the creative community, for the story artist, for the writers, for the directors, for the animators. And I think that with respect to budget pressures, that, you know, part of the answer of why more 2D call it TV or, you know, streaming, you know, has to do with the budget constraints. And it is actually less expensive to make than it is to make. Computer animated stories that people are used to see out there in the theatrical world.
我觉得这是几种因素的综合体。你知道，最终流媒体为讲故事者提供了更多的机会。人们有更多的场所去讲述和描绘他们的故事。而且，我认为，这对创意社区、故事艺术家、作家、导演和动画师都有好处。至于预算压力方面，更多的2D电视或者流媒体内容，与预算限制有关。实际上，这比制作剧院里人们习惯看到的计算机动画故事要便宜。
Well, you know, I think about how you have the proliferation of cheaper, easier to make, you know, non-animated features, certainly, on the streaming services. And that's part of the streaming economy, I suppose. And I wonder, what accounts for the continued appeal of animated pictures?
嗯，你知道的，我在考虑现在的流媒体服务上有越来越多廉价、易制作、非动画的影片。我想这是流媒体经济的一部分。但我也想知道，为什么动画影片依然有那么大的吸引力呢？
It can't just be that it's, that it's eye candy for kids, can it? It's imagination.. I think that the people telling stories in animation are exploring ideas and worlds and visual storytelling that is just more complicated and difficult in live action, if you will, or live action with visual effects. It's far beyond just for kids. It's, in fact, not that. I think when these movies succeed, it's because of the stories that we're telling.
难道它只是为了孩子们的视觉享受吗？不是的。这是想象力。我认为，动画故事的讲述者正在探索比真人影片更为复杂和困难的思想、世界和视觉叙事。这远远超出了只是针对孩子的。事实上，这不是那样的。我认为，当这些电影成功时，是因为我们所讲述的故事。
It's the ideas that we're exploring. It's the way that we're visualizing the world, which feels like there's an artist touch in just about every facet of the story creation. And I think that's appealing to audiences. And I don't think people will ever get tired of that. This is getting close to storytellers who are creating, you know, an imaginative world that people don't normally get to experience.
我们正在探索的是创意构思，我们正在以一种方式展现世界，使得在故事创作的各个方面都能感受到艺术家的感触。我认为这对观众具有吸引力，而且我不认为人们会对此感到厌烦。这已经接近于那些创造了一个想象世界的故事讲述者。因此，人们可以在这个世界里体验到平常不会有的经历。
What do you see the future of animated content going? I think that it's just going to continue to evolve in a very robust fashion. I think that you're going to see new tools and new tech that help us tell stories more efficiently. I think as a consequence of that, you're going to see more risk.
你认为动画内容的未来会怎样？我觉得会继续以强劲的势头发展。我认为我们会看到新的工具和技术，能更有效地讲故事。因此，我认为我们会看到更多的冒险。
I think that if pictures can be made, if stories can be told without the tremendous overbearing costs, we'll have more creative risk-taking. And fundamentally, I think that is fantastic for the artists involved. And ultimately, it's what audiences want, which is to, you know, experience these films or animated TV series that take them to worlds and introduce them to stories and characters that they haven't seen before.
我认为，如果可以在没有巨大的成本负担的情况下制作图片并讲述故事，我们将会看到更多的创意冒险。从根本上讲，我认为这对参与其中的艺术家来说是非常棒的。而最终，观众所要的就是体验这些电影或动画电视系列，带他们进入未曾见过的世界，介绍他们未曾听闻的故事和角色。
Andrew Milstein, he's the former president of Disney Animation. He oversaw the release of fan favorites like Tangled Frozen, Big Hero 6, Zootopia, and more. And today he's cooking up new projects that Anna Pernah pictures. Andrew, it was a real pleasure and a treat to get to say hello and to hear about the backstory on animation today. Thanks so much for taking time to join us on business wars. Thank you, David.
安德鲁·米尔斯坦是迪士尼动画的前任总裁。他负责发布了《放牛班的春天》、《冰雪奇缘》、《超能敢死队》、《疯狂动物城》等受到粉丝喜爱的电影。现在，他正在为安娜·佩尔纳影视公司开发新项目。安德鲁，很高兴能和您打招呼，并听到有关如何制作动画电影的幕后故事。非常感谢您抽出时间参加我们的商战节目。谢谢您，大卫。
When we come back, we're digging into dream works and checking in on the animation industry today with polygon entertainment journalist Patrona Radelovich. Stay with us.
当我们回来时，我们将深入探讨梦工厂，并与多边形娱乐新闻记者帕特罗娜·拉德洛维奇一起了解今天的动画行业。请继续关注我们。
Welcome back to Business Wars. Once upon a time in the Kingdom of Far, Far Away, there lived a missanthropic ogre alone in his swamp. She waited in the dragon's keep in the highest room of the tallest tower for her true love and true love's first kiss. Well, that's ever going to happen. Pretty soon, Shrek and his chatty sidekick, Donkey, turned us all into believers of dream works pictures.
欢迎回到《商业之战》。从前，在遥远的王国里，有个孤独的怪物住在沼泽里。她在龙塔的最高层等待她真正的爱和真正的一吻，然而那永远不会发生。很快，Shrek和他健谈的助手Donkey让我们都相信了梦工厂的电影。
This irreverence sense of humor would become a through line of dream works films, setting them apart from Disney's squeaky, clean content repertoire. Here to tell us more about one of Disney's biggest rivals in 3D animation is entertainment journalist Patrona Radelovich of the online publication polygon. She's written about Disney dream works, Shrek and everything in between. And she joins us now.
这种不敬的幽默感将成为梦工厂电影的一条主线，使它们与迪士尼的干净内容形象形成区别。今天我们请来娱乐记者Patrona Radelovich，她是在线出版物Polygon的作者，将跟我们谈论迪士尼最大的竞争对手之一，即3D动画。她写过有关迪士尼、梦工厂、怪物史莱克等一切的文章，现在加入我们的讨论。
Patrona, thanks so much for taking time to talk with us on business wars. Thank you so much for having me.
Patrona，非常感谢你抽出时间来和我们谈论商业战争。非常感谢你邀请我。
Well, let's begin with Shrek, shall we? Do you remember the first time you watched it? Yeah, I think I was probably like five years old. It was the coolest thing ever when I was that age.
好的，我们就从《怪物史莱克》开始吧，你记得第一次看它的时候吗？是的，我想我大概五岁的时候看的。当我那个年纪时，这是最酷的事情了。
Oh, I bet. I bet. Did you pick up on all the jokes? No. No, no. I didn't know.
哦，我赌一定是这样。我赌是这样。你都明白了所有的笑话吗？不是，没有。不，不，我不知道。
Wow, that's great. So you just get a certain kind of joy watching it these days. I think watching it as a teenager and then getting all the like, raunchier jokes was definitely very fun and then like now that I'm aware of what was going on at dream works. At that time, it just becomes even more hilarious.
哇，太棒了。现在你只需要观看它就能获得一种特殊的乐趣。我觉得当我还是个十几岁的青少年时，看到其中各种“更加猥亵”的笑话绝对是很有趣的，现在意识到当时的梦工厂正在实现什么，这变得更加滑稽了。
Well, then I have to ask you, I mean, because you have an unusual sort of bit of insight here. I mean, as you watch it now, what do you pick up on immediately other than sort of the grown up jokes and that kind of thing? How much do you think Shrek was inspired by that rivalry between these two studios? So much of Shrek seems like a stab at Disney directly.
好的，那我必须问你，因为你有一些不寻常的洞察力。我是说，现在你看它，除了一些成人笑话之类的东西，你能立刻注意到什么吗？你认为《怪物史莱克》有多少受到这两家公司之间的竞争的启发？《怪物史莱克》中很多地方似乎直接针对迪士尼。
You have all these parodies of these fairy tale characters and they did a good job of like, you know, walking the line over like, what is a Disney character? Because there's a lot of like those public domain characters, like the three little pigs or the three blind lives or whatever. But probably more so is the fact that the villain is Lord Farquad who wants to kidnap all these fairy tale characters and keep them like isolated away from his pristine castle.
你们制作了很多这些童话人物的模仿作品，他们干得很好，可以说是左右难以判定，比如，什么是迪士尼的人物？因为有很多像三只小猪或三只瞎眼老鼠之类的公共领域人物。但更重要的是，反派是想绑架所有这些童话人物并将他们隔离在他的精致城堡外的洛德·法夸德。
Run, run, run, as fast as you can. You can't catch me. I'm the gingerbread man. You're a monster.
跑啊，跑啊，尽力而为。你追不上我。我是姜饼人。你是怪物。
When Shrek visits the castle, it's like these manu-curred hedges in shape of Lord Farquad and like mascots and gift shops everywhere. And then he goes and like goes to the information booth and there's like a little song that plays and it sounds like exactly like it's a small world.
当Shrek访问城堡时，就像这些裁剪成Lord Farquad形状的园林，以及随处可见的吉祥物和礼品店。然后他去了信息亭，有一首小曲子播放，听起来就像是“小小世界”。
Please give up on the ground, shine your shoes with your face. Ha, so you think it should be maybe Lord Eisner. There's a popular theory. I don't know how accurate this is. That Lord Farquad was like modeled after Michael Eisner. Oh, that is so funny. That is so funny.
请放弃地面，用您的脸刷鞋。哈，所以您认为可能是艾斯纳大人。有一种流行的理论。我不知道这有多准确。就是说派格尔勋爵是以迈克尔·艾斯纳为原型设计的。哦，这太有趣了。太有趣了。
Well, I want to get back to that rivalry between Dreamworks and Disney. Dreamworks animated movies have been described by their leadership as being a little edgier than Disney animated movies, a little more adult. And I think in one of your articles, Dreamworks exact quoted Jeffrey Katzenberg is saying, when Dreamworks was really like picking up steam, it was the early 2000s and there's this like layer of cynicism and sarcasm in a lot of media.
嗯，我想回到Dreamworks和Disney之间的竞争。Dreamworks的动画电影被他们的领导描述为比Disney的动画电影更加尖锐一点，更加成人化。我记得在你们的一篇文章中，Dreamworks的Jeffrey Katzenberg确切地说过，在Dreamworks真正崛起的时候，那是在2000年代初，很多媒体上都有一层玩世不恭和讽刺。
I think we've kind of seen that pivot in recent years, but I think that they really benefited from that. And that really like almost overly saccharine, like Disney musical was kind of becoming a little old fashioned, a little seeming a little young. And so when they built their image up on being like, let's tell these raunchy jokes that are like definitely going to go over the heads of kids, but like maybe a few of them will get it. And I think that really established their brand.
我觉得近年来我们在某种程度上看到了这种转变，但我认为他们真正受益于此。那种过于甜蜜、像迪士尼音乐剧一样的风格有点陈旧，看起来似乎有点年轻。因此，当他们把自己的形象建立在“让我们讲些下流的笑话，肯定会超过孩子们的理解，但也许会有一些孩子听懂了”这一点上时，我认为这真正确立了他们的品牌。
I think that as they grew, they no longer were those underdogs that they were like positing themselves to be. So when they took digs at big corporations and stuff like that, it got to a certain point where like you are the big corporation, like you can't really like take digs at Disney if you're like trying to overthrow Disney in that scope. They also have like a lot of sequels and stuff, which like also kind of undermined it, like the specialness of like that first Shrek. I think like four Shrecks later, you're like, okay, this is, this is enough Shrek.
我认为随着他们的发展，他们不再是那些像自认为的弱者。因此，当他们攻击大公司之类的时候，有一定的限度，因为你们本身就是大公司。如果你们试图在这方面推翻迪士尼，你就不能攻击迪士尼了。此外，他们也有很多续集，这也破坏了第一个《怪物史瑞克》的特别意义。我想在第四部《怪物史瑞克》之后，你会说：“好了，够了，不要再拍怪物史瑞克了。”
You know, these early films do seem to have sort of online, almost cult like followings. And there are a lot of, there are a lot of memes. How has that affected the shelf life of these films, do you think? A lot of the people making these memes are people who kind of grew up watching these movies because they are so cynical and funny and they kind of invite that sort of a like viewpoint of them, like it's hard to take the earnestness of a Disney movie and like make it into an ironic meme without being a little bit mean-spirited about it, whereas something like the B movie kind of invites that.
你知道吗，这些早期电影似乎拥有一种在线上几乎像崇拜一样的追随者。而且有很多梗。你认为这对这些电影的寿命产生了什么影响？很多制作这些梗的人都是在看这些电影长大的人，因为它们非常愤世嫉俗和有趣，并且这种观点也在某种程度上被鼓励，好像很难把迪士尼电影的真挚感变成具有讽刺意味的梗，而不是有些恶意，但像“蜜蜂电影”这样的电影则更容易引起这种现象。
There's a video out there that's like the B movie, but every time they say the word B it gets like faster or something. It's just like very B-bexan. So you see Soda's building a sidewalk and you don't drink it? Is a little B. He's not bothering anybody. Can I hear you, Kri? It's just funny. I don't think the B movie, I don't know, I don't think it did well with critics. I think it did fine at the box office, but I think the fact that it is just so ridiculous and it's fun. I think that contributes to their Soda. I think that it does extend the shelf life of them.
有一个视频就像B级电影一样，但每次他们说B这个词语时，它就会越来越快之类的。它就像非常B级电影一样。所以你看Soda在建一条人行道，你不喝了？有点小B。他没有打扰任何人。可以听听你的想法，Kri？这只是很有趣。我不认为B级电影，我不知道，我不认为评论家很喜欢它。我认为它在票房上做得很好，但我认为它是如此荒谬和有趣。我想这有助于他们的Soda延长保质期。
What do you think is going on outside the United States and the animation world? I mean, have you had a chance to check out what the contents like and which markets seem to be most engaged in animation these days? Yeah. So I think inside the US animation has a reputation of being family-friendly and for children and that is absolutely not the case internationally.
你觉得美国和动画世界之外现在发生了什么？我的意思是，你有没有机会看看现在的内容和哪些市场似乎最热衷于动画？是的。我认为在美国，动画具有面向家庭和儿童的声誉，但在国际上绝对不是这样。
I think the easiest one to point to is Japan with all the anime content. The anime movies in Japan are like always like their like best box office hits, places like France also have like a huge animation boom and they also have like more mature movies. I didn't realize that. That's interesting. Yeah, there was this one a couple of years ago called I Lost My Body and it was about this disembodied hand that was like walking through Paris and like.
我认为最容易举例的是日本，因为他们有许多动漫内容。在日本，动漫电影总是最受欢迎的票房捧场，而像法国这样的国家也有着巨大的动画热潮，并且也拥有更加成熟的电影。我之前还不知道这些。真是有趣啊。是啊，几年前有一部电影叫做《我失去了我的身体》，讲述了一只不同寻常的手臂在巴黎歩行的故事。
I remember that. Yeah. It was very good. But also not the sort of thing that you would like bring your kid to see because it's about a disembodied hand. You're right, right.
我记得那部电影。嗯，非常不错。但也不太适合带孩子去看，因为它是关于一个分离的手。你说得对，没错。
Well, you know, adult animation is another vertical that seems to have grown more broadly over the years and obviously not just abroad. I mean, it used to be that TV and cable networks are dropping shows like Family Guy, Rick and Morty, Bob's Burgers. Now it seems like there's a whole world of animated content online and I wonder if you can name some of the standouts. And why you think that maybe animation was the best way to tell those stories which once upon a time would have been told through live action.
嗯，你知道，成人动画似乎在这些年中成为了另一个越来越广泛的领域，显然不仅仅是在国外。以前，电视和有线电视网络会取消像《格里芬家庭》、《瑞克和莫蒂》、《鲍勃汉堡店》这样的节目。现在似乎有一个整个世界的网络动画内容，我想知道你能否列出一些特别的作品。而为什么你认为动画是讲述这些故事的最佳方式，这些故事以前可能是通过真人表演来讲述的。
Yeah. So, I think the first thing that comes to mind is Netflix has this sci-fi anthology series called Love, Death and Robots and it is like purposefully marketed to be like hardcore and edgy and stuff and it's like full of blood, gore, guts, nudity.
嗯。我觉得首先想到的是Netflix有一部科幻系列叫做《爱情、死亡和机器人》。它的营销定位是要很硬核很前卫之类的，整部剧充满了血腥、臟腑、裸露等元素。
It's also like super innovative in the terms.. It uses a lot of animation styles because each of the shorts is animated by a different studio. So, they just like some of them are like hyper realistic, some of them are more stylized and it's just like the sort of thing that just would not look good in live action because of how out there the concepts are.
这种动画很超前，因为每一个短片都是由不同的动画工作室制作的，所以使用了很多不同的动画风格。因此，有些超级逼真，有些会更加风格化。如果用真人拍摄，就不会呈现出这么新奇的概念了。
I think another one recently that I really like also from Netflix was Arcane which is an adaptation of League of Legends which is this vitally popular video game takes place in like a fantasy world and so there's stuff that just would not look good in like CG stuff.
我觉得最近我很喜欢的另一个Netflix的作品是《奥罗拉》，它是根据《英雄联盟》改编的，这是一款非常受欢迎的视频游戏，故事发生在一个奇幻世界里，有些东西用CG制作就不会很好看。
It's more stylized. It's that one is particularly gorgeous because it looks like it's the entire thing is painted. It's just it's not like that flat like family guy animation or is it like a true like CG like Shrek. It looks like the shading and the painting and the highlights of it. It's just absolutely phenomenal.
这个就比较有风格啦。尤其是那一个特别美丽，因为它看起来整个画面都是被绘制的。它并不像《格里芬家庭》这样扁平化的动画，也不像《怪物史瑞克》这样真实的 CG动画。看上去非常有层次和绘画感，高光照映也很棒。它真的是太惊人啦！
Well, would you say Netflix is leading the pack when it comes to adult animation then? Yeah, I think there was definitely a time when that was true. I think there's been a lot of internal restructuring and Netflix that has kind of like shafted a lot of animation but there was a couple of years ago they were taking a lot of risks with like Bojack Horseman with Castlevania with Love Death and Robots that I think empowered other places to also do that.
那么，你会说Netflix在成人动画方面处于领导地位吗？是的，我认为有一个时期确实是这样的。我认为Netflix进行了很多内部重组，导致很多动画受到了忽视，但是几年前，他们采取了很多冒险，比如制作《马男波杰克》、《悲愤城歌》和《爱死亡和机器人》等作品，这激励了其他地方也去尝试这样的事情。
You see that with like HBO Max and they're like Harley Quinn show and Amazon Prime is doing the Legend of Box Mac and I which so all these like genre adult animation that kind of steps outside that episodic comedic form that we historically associated with like South Park and Family Guy which like really dominated what adult animation was for years.
你看，就比如HBO Max，他们有像是“哈莉・奎恩”的节目，而Amazon Prime 正在推出“巴克斯・麦康尼传奇”，所以这些类型的成人动画节目有点时髦，它们不再局限于历史上像是《南方公园》和《恶搞之家》那种以每集喜剧为主的形式，这几部作品长期以来几乎统治了成人动画的领域。
Can you tell us about some of the other players on the animation scene any independence out there that might be given the larger studios a run for their money? Yeah, I think one of my favorite animation studios is this Irish studio called Cartoon Saloon. They dub it the Irish folklore trilogy so it's Secret of the Kells song of the Sea and Wolf Walkers. They have a very specific in-house style. It's not that like CG like hyper realized stuff. It's 2D animation. It looks like a storybook come to life. It was also like absolutely gorgeous.
你能告诉我们一些其他在动画界的独立创作室吗？它们是否能够和大型工作室竞争呢？好的，我觉得我最喜欢的动画工作室之一是一个叫做卡通茅屋的爱尔兰工作室。他们的三部曲称之为爱尔兰民俗三部曲，包括凯尔斯的秘密，海之歌和狼行者。它们具有非常独特的内部风格，不是那种超现实的CG风格，而是2D动画。看起来像是活生生的故事书。而且它们的画面也非常美丽。
Well, I'm curious then if maybe you can leave us with any recommendations for great animation out there. Maybe something we might have overlooked. Things we should definitely have on our got to see this list.
嗯，我很好奇，你能不能给我们推荐一些很棒的动画作品。也许有些东西我们漏看了。有哪些一定要加到我们必看列表里呢？
So this is not overlooked but this is actually going back to the previous conversation but the Puss and Boots movie, the recent one surprisingly good, gorgeously animated. I think it really speaks to United States animation trying to be more stylized in the way that I think Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse from Sony. You really just like pushed it and I think that we're going to see like a new wave of this stuff. And then one of my favorites which is it's kind of older.
这个话题不要被忽视了。实际上，这是回到之前的谈话，关于“猫和靴子”电影，最近的版本非常好，动画效果也很棒。我认为这真正体现了美国动画试图在风格上更具有个性化的特点，就像Sony的“蜘蛛侠：平行宇宙”。你真的把它推到了极致，我认为我们会看到这方面的新浪潮。而我喜欢的其中一个是相对较老的作品。
It's a French movie about a little bear and a little mouse which I know it sounds kind of like saccharine but they become unlikely friends and then they have to deal with each of their communities. It's called Ernest and Celestine. It's very beautiful, very good.
这是一部法国电影，讲述了一只小熊和一只小老鼠之间的故事。虽然听起来有点像糖果，但他们成了不太可能的朋友，接着他们得面对各自社区的问题。它的名字叫做《欧内斯特与塞勒斯汀》，非常美丽，非常好看。
We've been talking with Patrona Radalovic. She covers entertainment and culture for Polygon and you can check out more of her reporting at polygon.com.
我们一直在与Patrona Radalovic交谈。她为Polygon报道娱乐和文化新闻，您可以在polygon.com上查看更多她的报道。
Patrona, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us on Business Wars. Been great to get to know you.
Patrona，非常感谢您抽出时间与我们在商业战争上进行交流。很高兴认识您。
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我来。
Make sure to join us next time as we celebrate five years of Business Wars. We're taking you behind the scenes as we dig into the birth of the program and how we put it together plus I'll be in the hot seat. You won't want to miss it.
请务必在下次加入我们，一起庆祝《商战》五周年。我们将带领您走进节目幕后，探讨节目的诞生和制作过程，同时我也将上阵献艺。您不想错过这个机会。
From Wondry this is Episode 5 of Disney Pixar vs Dreamworks for Business Wars. I'm your host David Brown. Kelly Kyle produced this episode, our interview episode producer is Peter Arcooney. Karen Lo is our senior producer and editor, edited and produced by Emily Frost. We're designed by Kyle Randall. Additional audio assistance by Sergio Enriquez. Dave Shelling is our producer. Our senior managing producer is Tanya Thigpen. Matt Gant is our managing producer.
这里是 Wondry 节目的第五集，主题是迪士尼皮克斯与梦工厂的商战。我是主持人 David Brown。此集由 Kelly Kyle 制作，我们的访谈制作人是 Peter Arcooney。Karen Lo 是我们的高级制片人和编辑，本集由 Emily Frost 编辑和制作。我们的设计师是 Kyle Randall。Sergio Enriquez 提供了额外的音频帮助。Dave Shelling 是我们的制片人。我们的高级制片人是 Tanya Thigpen。Matt Gant 是我们的制片经理。
Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Looey, created by Ernan Lopez and Harveybeer Wondried.
我们的执行制片人是珍妮·劳尔·贝克曼和马歇尔·卢易，由厄南·洛佩兹和哈维·比尔·旺德里德创作。