首页  >>  来自播客: User Upload Audio 更新   反馈  

User Upload Audio - Israel is destroying itself with its settlement policy - YouTube

发布时间:2013-01-16 11:15:18   原节目
**Intelligence Squared 辩论围绕以下议题展开:“以色列正在以其定居点政策自我毁灭。”辩论由蒂姆·弗兰克斯主持,由四位发言人组成:威廉·西科德、丹尼·达农、丹尼尔·列维和卡罗琳·格利克。** 西科德支持该议题,他展示了一系列地图,说明了巴勒斯坦领土随着时间推移而缩小的过程,强调了以色列在西岸和东耶路撒冷的定居点扩张。他认为,定居点扩张破坏了两国方案的前景,并导致国际社会相信以色列对和平没有真正的兴趣。他警告说,这种孤立可能导致以色列的合法性受到质疑并最终走向毁灭。他断言,即使以色列将来想要撤回定居者,定居者的庞大数量也会使其在政治上和实际上都难以实现。 达农反对该议题,他否认定居点政策在道德上或战略上存在缺陷。他认为,这场冲突是独特的,涉及两个拥有真诚历史叙事的种族群体。他声称,巴勒斯坦人拒绝了之前的分治方案并诉诸暴力,现在失去了要求两国方案的任何道德权利。他断言,以色列有道德权利居住在犹太和撒玛利亚(即西岸),并辩称定居点并非愚蠢之举,而是对以色列安全至关重要。他认为,在西岸建立巴勒斯坦国将创造一个伊斯兰原教旨主义领土,危及以色列的生存,并引用加沙撤离作为失败的实验。 列维支持该议题,他认为以色列面临着一个选择,即要么成为一个犹太国家,要么成为一个民主国家,要么控制其目前拥有的所有领土,但它只能拥有这三者中的两者。他认为定居点是两国方案的主要障碍,实际上使这片土地不可分割。他拒绝巴勒斯坦人可以简单地“吞下”任何程度的定居点增长的想法,并声称持续的扩张将推动巴勒斯坦人走向单一国家的民主。他警告说,定居点推动了以色列国内的民主衰退,并且是一种高风险的安全策略,导致以色列的孤立,并可能导致类似南非的种族隔离现实。 格利克强烈反对该议题,她认为犹太人在犹太和撒玛利亚的存在与和平前景无关。她指出以色列与埃及和约旦签署了和平协议,尽管定居点依然存在。她否认了“人口定时炸弹”的论点,并引用了显示犹太人和阿拉伯人出生率趋同的统计数据。她的主要论点在于犹太人选择居住地的公民权利,她质疑为什么允许犹太人居住在世界上的任何地方,唯独不能居住在犹太和撒玛利亚。她认为,寻求一个没有犹太人的巴勒斯坦国在本质上是偏执和道德上的暴行,并将它与1939年的英国白皮书和2005年的加沙脱离接触相提并论,她认为这两者都是绥靖政策的失败。她将试图否定定居点合法性的行为描述为试图与哈马斯等恐怖组织寻找共同点。 辩论包括一个充满活力的问答环节,重点关注定居点土地的法律地位、与种族隔离或纳粹政策的潜在比较,以及在现有定居点现实下巴勒斯坦人的潜在长期未来等问题。最终,观众投票赞成以色列正在以其定居点政策自我毁灭的议题。

The Intelligence Squared debate centers on the motion: "Israel is destroying itself with its settlement policy." Chaired by Tim Franks, the debate features four speakers: William Seacord, Danny Danon, Daniel Levy, and Caroline Glick. Seacord, arguing for the motion, presents a series of maps illustrating the shrinking Palestinian territory over time, emphasizing the growth of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. He argues that settlement expansion undermines the prospects for a two-state solution and leads the international community to believe Israel has no genuine interest in peace. This isolation, he warns, could lead to Israel's delegitimization and eventual destruction. He contends that even if Israel wanted to withdraw settlers in the future, the sheer number of settlers would make it politically and practically impossible. Danon, against the motion, rejects the notion that settlement policy is either morally or strategically flawed. He argues that the conflict is unique, involving two ethnic groups with sincerely held historical narratives. He claims that the Palestinians rejected previous partition proposals and resorted to violence, losing any moral right to demand a two-state solution now. He asserts that Israel has a moral right to live in Judea and Samaria, arguing that the settlements are not foolish but essential for Israel's security. He suggests that a Palestinian state in the West Bank would create an Islamic fundamentalist territory, endangering Israel's existence, referencing the Gaza withdrawal as a failed experiment. Levy, supporting the motion, argues that Israel faces a choice between being a Jewish state, a democratic state, and controlling all the territory it currently holds, but it can only have two of the three. He sees settlements as a major obstacle to a two-state solution, effectively making the land indivisible. He rejects the idea that the Palestinians can simply "swallow" any amount of settlement growth, contending that continued expansion will push Palestinians towards a one-state democracy. He warns that settlements drive a democratic recession within Israel and are a high-risk security strategy, contributing to Israel's isolation and potentially leading to a South African-style apartheid reality. Glick, vehemently opposing the motion, argues that the presence of Jews in Judea and Samaria has no bearing on the prospects for peace. She points to Israel's peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, signed despite the existence of settlements. She denies the "demographic time bomb" argument, citing statistics showing convergence between Jewish and Arab birth rates. Her primary argument rests on the civil rights of Jews to live where they choose, questioning why Jews are allowed to live anywhere in the world except Judea and Samaria. She argues that the pursuit of a Jew-free Palestinian state is inherently bigoted and a moral atrocity, equating it with the British White Paper of 1939 and the Gaza disengagement of 2005, both of which she sees as failures of appeasement. She characterizes attempts to delegitimize settlements as attempts to find common ground with terrorist organizations like Hamas. The debate included a spirited question and answer session, focusing on issues such as the legal status of settlement land, potential comparisons to apartheid or Nazi policies, and the potential long-term future for the Palestinians under existing settlement realities. Ultimately, the audience voted in favor of the motion that Israel is destroying itself with its settlement policy.