The host interviews legendary biographer Robert Caro on the podcast, discussing his meticulous writing process, his massive biographies of Robert Moses and Lyndon B. Johnson, and the nature of political power, ambition, and determination.
The conversation begins by noting Johnson’s maxim: "If you do everything, you'll win." The host asks Caro if he shares qualities with his intense, relentless subjects like Johnson or Robert Moses. Caro acknowledges that while he hopes he doesn’t share their ruthlessness, he does share their refusal to take no for an answer, highlighting the extreme lengths he goes to secure vital interviews, such as tracking down Johnson’s former campaign chauffeur and aides.
Shifting to Robert Moses, the host and Caro discuss the current societal paradox where building infrastructure is bogged down by excessive safeguards, reviews, and community boards, leading to soaring costs and stalled projects like the Second Avenue subway or California’s high-speed rail. Caro notes that when Moses started in the 1920s, people similarly complained that government could build nothing due to property owners and red tape. Moses proved that a single figure of immense will and political genius could cut through obstacles, though his early idealism eventually curdled into autocratic ruthlessness, as seen in the destructive Cross Bronx Expressway. Caro suggests that while society doesn't want Moses's callous disregard for the public, building large-scale infrastructure requires a similar drive to find a way forward despite widespread opposition.
Caro recounts watching Moses lose power toward the end of writing *The Power Broker*, describing the poignant moment when the constant phone calls in Moses's office suddenly stopped. He reflects on how Moses never truly recognized that his era of unchecked power had passed.
The discussion then turns to Lyndon Johnson. Caro explores the dual sources of Johnson's power: his persuasive personal charm and the heavy leverage he held over senators through committee assignments and legislation. Discussing *Means of Ascent*, Caro expresses lingering sympathy for Coke Stevenson, the honest populist who was defeated by Johnson's 1948 election-stealing machine. The host asks whether a pre-presidency Johnson as majority leader under Kennedy would have achieved the same legislative triumphs. Caro answers no, emphasizing that while Kennedy was charming and strong in foreign policy, he lacked Johnson's burning, unique desire to fundamentally change America for the poor and marginalized. Caro touches upon the tragic unraveling of Johnson’s domestic vision due to the Vietnam War—a conflict whose escalation remains a complex mystery he is still trying to decode.
Caro shares his writing methodology, explaining that before starting a book, he forces himself to distill its entire premise into a single sentence or paragraph to keep himself on track. He discusses his archives, noting that he deliberately accepted significantly less money to place his extensive interview notes and research files in the New York Historical Society rather than the University of Texas, ensuring they remain easily accessible for future generations of scholars.
Finally, Caro reflects on the profound loneliness of the frontier upbringing that shaped Lyndon Johnson’s character, as well as his own solitary working life in New York City, where he spends his days with his phone turned off, utterly focused on his craft. The host expresses his deep gratitude, noting that Caro has been his dream guest for six years.