The Intelligent Squared podcast episode features a conversation between journalist and author Paul Mason and Conservative MP Jesse Norman, centered around Mason's book "Clear Bright Future: A Radical Defense of the Human Being." The discussion delves into the crises facing Western society, the threats of algorithmic control, and the need for a re-evaluation of humanism in the 21st century.
Mason argues that Western society is grappling with an economic system that no longer benefits most people, leading to a decline in democratic consent and an erosion of faith in universal human rights. Adding to this is the growing threat of algorithmic control, where powerful technologies like artificial intelligence and big data could be used to manipulate human thought and behavior. Mason believes these challenges stem from a crisis of the neoliberal self, requiring a fundamental re-examination of what it means to be human and how to defend human agency in the face of these threats.
Norman probes Mason on his intellectual influences, particularly Marxism. Mason clarifies his position as a Marxist who seeks to transcend capitalism and advocates for a long, gradual move beyond the market economy. He emphasizes the importance of defending human agency in the face of autonomous machines, states, and systems. He also highlights the need for a moral and philosophical project alongside the political one, focusing on the question of what kind of human being society should be defending.
Norman questions Mason's views on climate change and the left, challenging the notion that caring about decarbonization is inherently a left-wing position. He also argues that Mason's critique of cultural Marxism aligns with a wider need to move beyond simplistic class analyses and acknowledge the potential for bigotry and prejudice on both sides of the political spectrum.
Mason acknowledges the rise of anti-humanist sentiment within academic circles, particularly within the humanities, where postmodernist and posthumanist ideologies question the very concept of human agency. He expresses concern about the potential for these ideas to undermine the defense of human rights and the ability to resist forms of technological control. He highlights the threats from the new right who promote biologically hierarchical positions and seek to subordinate sections of the human race.
The discussion moves to the role of markets and competition. Mason advocates for breaking up big tech monopolies to encourage innovation and collapse monopoly profits. However, he also argues for a market-correcting approach to rent-seeking behavior, criticizing speculative building, fossil fuel extraction, and exploitative business models like Uber.
Norman challenges Mason's anti-capitalist stance, suggesting that his proposals for breaking up big tech actually align with pro-market principles. Mason clarifies that his ultimate goal is to transcend the market-based economy altogether, favoring a system based on abundance, co-ops, mutuals, and universal basic services. He suggests that information technology makes utopian socialism possible. The episode ends with Mason stating the threat of climate change, the radical decarbonization program he wants to see take place and finally that Marx is still relevant.