这是一段与霍华德·马克斯（Howard Marks）及其子安德鲁·马克斯（Andrew Marks）的对话。霍华德是橡树资本管理公司（Oaktree Capital Management）的联合创始人，一位传奇的价值投资者；安德鲁是TQ Ventures的联合创始人，一家专注于早期阶段的风险投资公司。讨论围绕价值投资与成长投资的概念、市场的演变以及建立成功的投资公司所面临的挑战展开。 对话始于霍华德和安德鲁在疫情期间共同撰写的一份备忘录，这份备忘录成为了霍华德有史以来最受欢迎的备忘录。他们讨论了由于不同的时代背景和经验，他们之间不同的投资风格如何引发了一场激烈的辩论，最终促成了这份备忘录的诞生。 安德鲁回顾了他个人的发展历程，从最初遵循价值投资原则到拥抱成长投资，尤其是在科技公司领域。他强调了理解“维护现金流”并将这些现金以高回报率进行再投资的重要性，无论通过传统的资本支出还是研发和销售团队。这引出了关于亚马逊的讨论，亚马逊就是一个典型的例子，它的价值远远超出了最初的零售业务，这归功于它对AWS（亚马逊云服务）的投资，证明了押注有远见的创始人的重要性。 霍华德强调了开放心态在投资成功中的关键作用，尤其是在适应不断变化的市场环境方面。他回顾了早期从事高收益债券投资的经历，当时大多数投资者由于刻板的规则和偏见而对此不屑一顾，而他却从中发现了机会。他强调，机会来源于市场中的无知和偏见。 对话随后转向了技术采用和颠覆的加速。虽然全球潜在市场和具有战略邻近性的市场创造了巨大的机会，但护城河的持久性降低，需要公司不断发展和适应。他们谈到了有效市场假说，并承认信息已经变得容易获取，通过简单的分析找到被低估的资产变得更加困难。安德鲁提到了对未来做出长期定性判断的重要性，霍华德强调了从传统的价值投资向结合定性分析和前瞻性分析方向发展的必要性。 对话讨论了投资业务中公司建设的方面，霍华德强调了强大的文化、优秀的人才、共同的价值观和互补的技能的重要性。安德鲁将此与TQ Ventures的方法进行了对比，后者侧重于充满激情的投资和与创始人建立牢固的关系，从而实现世界级的回报。 对话转向了退出的话题，霍华德分享了橡树资本被布鲁克菲尔德收购的故事，这与他们长期坚持的独立性和运营控制标准相符。安德鲁和霍华德讨论了出售与长期持有的哲学，强调理解底层业务、其复利增长潜力以及替代投资的机会成本是出售决策的关键因素。安德鲁认为，像拥有非凡长期价值的世代公司是非常罕见的，持有它们是一个明智的策略。 最后，听众被告知在哪里阅读霍华德的备忘录以及在哪里找到安德鲁。

This is a conversation with Howard Marks, the co-founder of Oaktree Capital Management, a legendary value investor, and his son, Andrew Marks, the co-founder of TQ Ventures, an early-stage venture firm. The discussion revolves around the concepts of value investing versus growth investing, the evolution of markets, and the challenges of building a successful investment firm. The conversation starts with the context of a memo that Howard and Andrew co-authored during the pandemic, which became Howard's most popular memo ever. They discuss how their differing investment styles, stemming from different generations and experiences, led to a spirited debate that ultimately informed the memo. Andrew recounts his personal journey from initially following value investing principles to embracing growth investing, particularly in tech companies. He highlights the importance of understanding "maintenance cash flow" and reinvesting it at high rates, whether through traditional capital expenditures or R&D and sales teams. This leads to a discussion about Amazon, a prime example of a company whose value extended far beyond its initial retail business through its investment in AWS, demonstrating the importance of betting on visionary founders. Howard emphasizes the concept of open-mindedness as crucial for success in investing, particularly in adapting to changing market conditions. He recounts his early days in high-yield bond investing, where he found opportunity in an area that most investors dismissed due to rigid rules and prejudices. He stresses that opportunities arise from ignorance and prejudice in the market. The conversation shifts to the acceleration of technological adoption and disruption. While global addressable markets and strategically adjacent markets create immense opportunities, moats are less permanent, requiring companies to constantly evolve and adapt. They touch on the efficient market hypothesis and acknowledge how information has become readily available, making it harder to find undervalued assets through simple analysis. Andrew mentions the importance of making long-term qualitative judgments about the future, and Howard emphasizes the need to evolve from traditional value investing to incorporate qualitative and forward-looking analysis. The firm-building aspect of the investment business is discussed, where Howard emphasizes the importance of a strong culture, exceptional people, shared values, and complementary skills. Andrew contrasts this with TQ Ventures' approach, which focuses on world-class returns driven by passionate investing and building strong relationships with founders. The conversation turns to the topic of exits, where Howard shares the story of Oaktree's acquisition by Brookfield, which aligned with their long-held criteria for independence and operational control. Andrew and Howard discuss the philosophy of selling versus holding long-term, emphasizing that understanding the underlying business, its compounding potential, and the opportunity cost of alternative investments are critical factors in selling decisions. Andrew argues that generational companies, companies that have extraordinary long-term value are rare, holding them is a sound strategy. Lastly, listeners are directed on where to read Howard’s memos and where to find Andrew.