以下是挪威主权财富基金 Sawone Well Fund 的 CEO Nicola Tangyan 与万事达卡 CEO Michael Miebach 播客对话的总结： 对话开始时，Tangyan 强调了万事达卡巨大的交易量，以及该基金所持有的 1.3% 的股份。 Miebach 承认这是他第一次参加播客。 主要议题是未来十年支付领域的发展。 Miebach 概述了几个强大的趋势：支付的日益数字化、现金和支票的持续存在，以及个人支付和商业支付之间的对比。 个人支付变得越来越无摩擦，生物识别技术日益突出，而商业支付仍然笨拙且数字化程度较低。 他设想的未来是生物识别认证取代密码，通过面部识别、掌纹扫描或眼睛扫描进行无缝支付认证。 他强调，安全性将仍然至关重要，令牌化将保护个人数据。 Tangyan 问十年后如何支付一片披萨的费用。 Miebach 预测，实体支付设备将被手机甚至完全不需要设备的方式取代，通过生物识别技术和面部识别进行身份验证。 Miebach 解释了万事达卡在促成不同方之间交易中的作用。 他以银行发行的信用卡在另一个国家使用为例。 万事达卡促进了这一复杂的过程，连接银行、商家，并确保交易安全。 此外，万事达卡还提供诸如促进航空公司里程以及为小型企业提供基于银行卡的支付解决方案以更快地收款等服务。 对话转向数字货币的影响，Miebach 对底层区块链技术表示出极大的热情。 他强调了可编程性，允许在满足特定条件时有条件地执行付款。 他将此与中央银行数字货币（如数字欧元）进行了对比，他认为数字欧元是一种引入竞争的替代支付方式。 万事达卡正在大力投资该技术。 Tangyan 询问 Miebach 个人是否持有加密货币。 Miebach 玩笑说他的儿子在区块链领域进行了一小笔投资。 他重申，万事达卡像对待任何其他合法商品或服务一样对待加密货币，允许进入和退出加密货币的通道，同时确保遵守相关法规。 Tangyan 询问来自大型科技和金融科技领域对万事达卡业务的最大威胁是什么。 Miebach 将行业格局分为大型科技公司、金融科技初创公司和新银行，所有这些都促进了交易的数字化。 他注意到了一加一等于三的效果。 例如，苹果卡就是利用令牌化的一个很好的例子，因为它提供了更安全和更可靠的支付方式。 Miebach 强调了这些公司带来的速度和创新。 他强调了金融科技孵化器项目以及快速行动以保持竞争力的重要性。 他指出，像苹果这样的大型公司理论上 *可以* 绕过万事达卡进行支付，但合作已经卓有成效。 Miebach 还讨论了“先买后付”（BNPL）公司。 他认识到这种日益增长的趋势，尤其是在年轻消费者中。 他强调，解决方案是通过万事达卡网络向任何接受万事达卡的商家提供“先买后付”分期付款选项，从而使银行能够提供与交易相关的贷款，以此实现可扩展性。 他们深入探讨了支付领域的区域差异。 欧洲在数字化方面略微落后于美国，但拥有更多样化的支付选择。 他与欧盟专员进行了交谈，并强调欧洲为欧洲消费者提供了最多的选择。 讨论随后转向亚洲和非洲。 中国拥有高度数字化的市场，该市场由二维码和受保护的支付生态系统主导。 非洲正在跨越传统技术，拥抱基于移动设备的金融服务，这需要本地化的解决方案。 万事达卡已投资 2 亿美元与非洲的 MTN 建立合作伙伴关系。 Miebach 阐明了该公司的收购战略。 万事达卡寻求可以增强支付解决方案或区分支付相关服务（尤其是在网络安全和商业支付方面）的资产。 万事达卡计划收购 Record Future 就是一个例子。 Miebach 讨论了万事达卡在核心支付（60%）和支付相关服务（40%）之间的收入分配。 在网络安全和欺诈方面，他分享该公司已在网络安全能力方面投入了 80 亿美元。 万事达卡使用数据来检测欺诈行为。 他注意到不断演变的威胁格局，欺诈者正在利用人工智能。 该公司还在人工智能（包括生成式人工智能）方面投入巨资。 Tangyan 询问了有趣的数据和体验。 Miebach 解释说，最近的一些测试正在自动化周末旅行计划，并创建由 AI 驱动的购物助手，可以满足特定的要求。 Tangyan 询问了对年轻人的领导力建议。 他说，他鼓励人们利用自己的新角色，提出各种问题，进行“深耕”。 此外，他要求他们找到自己的热情、重要的事情以及自己擅长的事情之间的交集。 最后，他鼓励人们寻找赞助者。 Tangyan 还询问了领导力的作用。 他认为领导者应该有一个愿景，并与最优秀、最聪明的人（包括那些挑战该愿景的人）一起反复迭代。 Miebach 随后表示，Master Card 的一个良好行为是快速行动、共同成长和创造价值。 他强调了“做正确的事”。 他说，这是 Ajay Bangar 深深扎根的一种理念。 最后，Tangyan 询问是什么让他想追求新的角色。 他说，那是他的父母问他是否想成为一名交换生的时候。 这改变了他的看法，让他不再认为一切理所当然。 此外，在中东和非洲工作了将近 10 年，让他意识到事情必须以不同的方式处理。 Miebach 并不认为存在德式领导风格，尽管人们可能会将其归类为系统化。 相反，他不优先考虑等级制度。 他更喜欢在楼层走动，并获得直接的反馈。 Miebach 强调了万事达卡的体面文化及其强大的合作伙伴关系导向。 他强调了在现代支付生态系统中竞争对手和合作伙伴之间界限的模糊。 Tangyan 询问了万事达卡基金会。 Miebach 表示该基金会独立运作。 此外，“影响基金”旨在帮助年轻一代上大学。 最后，Miebach 建议年轻人多问问题。 他表示，他鼓励他们利用自己的新角色，提出各种问题，进行“深耕”。 此外，他要求他们找到自己的热情、重要的事情以及自己擅长的事情之间的交集。 最后，他鼓励人们寻找赞助者。

Here's a summary of the podcast conversation between Nicola Tangyan, CEO of the Norwegian Sawone Well Fund, and Michael Miebach, CEO of Mastercard: The discussion begins with Tangyan highlighting Mastercard's significant transaction volume and the fund's 1.3% stake in the company. Miebach acknowledges this is his first podcast appearance. The main topic is the evolution of the payment space over the next decade. Miebach outlines several powerful trends: the increasing digitization of payments, the persistence of cash and checks, and the contrast between personal and commercial payments. Personal payments are becoming increasingly frictionless, with biometrics gaining prominence, while commercial payments remain clunky and less digitized. He envisions a future where biometric authentication replaces passwords, allowing for seamless payments authenticated through facial recognition, palm scanning, or eye scanning. He emphasizes that security will remain paramount, with tokenization protecting personal data. Tangyan asks how a slice of pizza will be paid for in ten years. Miebach predicts that physical payment devices will be replaced by phones or even no device at all, with authentication through biometrics and facial recognition. Miebach explains Mastercard's role in enabling transactions between different parties. He uses the example of a credit card issued by a bank being used in another country. Mastercard facilitates this complex process, connecting banks, merchants, and ensuring transaction security. Additionally, Mastercard provides services like facilitating airline miles and offering card-based payment solutions for small businesses to receive payments faster. The conversation shifts to the impact of digital currencies, where Miebach expresses enthusiasm for the underlying blockchain technology. He emphasizes programmability, allowing payments to be conditionally executed upon fulfilling certain conditions. He contrasts this with central bank digital currencies like the digital euro, which he sees as an alternative payment method that introduces competition. Mastercard is investing heavily in the technology. Tangyan asks whether Miebach personally holds cryptocurrency. Miebach jokes that his son has a small investment in blockchain. He reiterates that Mastercard treats cryptocurrency like any other legal good or service, enabling on-ramps and off-ramps into cryptocurrency while ensuring compliance with relevant regulations. Tangyan inquires about the biggest threats to Mastercard's business from the big tech and fintech space. Miebach classifies the landscape as big tech companies, fintech startups, and neo-banks, all contributing to digitizing transactions. He notes the one-plus-one-equals-three effect. The Apple card, which launched with tokenization, is a good example because it provided more safe and secure payments. Miebach emphasizes the speed and innovation brought by these companies. He highlights the fintech incubator program and the importance of moving quickly to maintain competitiveness. He points out that larger players like Apple *could* theoretically bypass Mastercard in payments, but collaboration has been fruitful. Miebach also discusses buy now, pay later (BNPL) companies. He recognizes the growing trend, particularly among younger consumers. He emphasizes the solution is scalability by providing Buy Now, Pay Later installment options available through the Mastercard network to any merchant who accepts Mastercard, enabling banks to offer transaction-tied lending. They delve into regional differences in the payments landscape. Europe lags slightly behind the US in digitization but has a more diverse range of payment options. He spoke with the EU commissioner and emphasized that Europe makes the most choice available to the European consumer. The discussion then moves to Asia and Africa. China has a highly digitized market dominated by QR codes and protected payment ecosystems. Africa is leapfrogging legacy technology, embracing mobile-based financial services, necessitating localized solutions. Mastercard has invested $200 million in a partnership with MTN in Africa. Miebach clarifies the company’s acquisition strategy. Mastercard seeks assets that can enhance payment solutions or differentiate payment-related services, particularly in cybersecurity and commercial payments. An example of that is MasterCard’s plan to acquire Record Future. Miebach discusses Mastercard's revenue split between core payments (60%) and payment-related services (40%). On cybersecurity and fraud, he shares the company has spent $8 billion into cybersecurity capability. Mastercard uses data to detect the fraud. He notes the evolving threat landscape, where fraudsters are leveraging AI. The company is also investing heavily in AI, including generative AI. Tangyan asked about fun data and experiences. Miebach explained that some recent tests are automating weekend travel planning and creating AI-powered shopping assistants that can fulfill specific requests. Tangyan inquired about leadership advice for young people. He says that he encourages people to use their new roles to "nerd out" with questions. Furthermore, he asks them to find the intersection of what their passion is, what matters, and what they're good at. Lastly, he encourages people to find sponsors. Tangyan also inquired about the role of leadership. He thinks the leader should have a vision and iterates it around with the best and brightest minds, including those that challenge the vision. Miebach then states that a good behavior in Master Card is to move fast, grow together, and create value. He highlights “doing the right thing.” He says it is something deeply ingrained from Ajay Bangar. Lastly, Tangyan asked what made him want to pursue a new role. He said it was when his parents asked him if he would like to be an exchange student. It changed his perception and not taking things for granted. Also, spending almost 10 years in the Middle East and Africa made him realize things would have to be approached differently. Miebach doesn’t think there is a German leadership style, although people may categorize it as systematic. Instead, he does not prioritize a hierarchy. He prefers to walk the floors and get direct feedback. Miebach emphasizes MasterCard's culture of decency and its strong partnership orientation. He highlights the blurred lines between competitors and partners in the modern payment ecosystem. Tangyan asked about the MasterCard Foundation. Miebach said it operates independently. Also, The Impact Fund is there to help the younger generation go to college. In closing, Miebach advises young people to ask questions. He states that he encourages them to use their new roles to "nerd out" with questions. Furthermore, he asks them to find the intersection of what their passion is, what matters, and what they're good at. Lastly, he encourages people to find sponsors.